Scott Moore: Welcome to the "Building Faith and Family" podcast with Steve Demme. I'm your host, Scott Moore. Thanks for joining us today. Good morning, Steve. How are you today?

Steve: I'm well. How are you?

Scott: Good. Bright eyed and bushy tailed. We're meeting later than usual.

Steve: I'm trying to visualize the bushy tailed, but anyway, we had a wonderful men's retreat this last weekend out in St. Louis, which you've attended in the past.

We started this in 2009 simply because I had a desire to get to know people that I had met on the road and at conferences, but I never had a chance to get to know them, so we met together in St. Louis, a central spot, and stayed at a hotel right by the airport. While we were together everybody had a chance to tell their story.

Then we had a chance to ask questions. At the end of a weekend, we became buds, and here we are still meeting in 2026. We're a bit older, a bit grayer, but still have our hearts together.

Scott: I went to Nashville this weekend to see my mom.

Steve: How'd that go?

Scott: Good. She wanted to get all the siblings together again, all of her children, because we hadn't been together, I guess, since my dad's funeral. She wanted us all together, and she wanted to pass out jewelry of hers to the women. Anyway, one of those things.

Steve: Today, we're going to talk about Numbers 17 to 26. I had this sensing as I was reading through these chapters of something I hadn't before, how near and how practical God is. God is not way up in the heavens and has no idea what's going on earth. That was my sensing.

In Psalm 119:151, "You are near, O Jehovah, and all your commandments are truth." I thought, what a great statement. Let's pray. Father, thank you that You are near. You're near when we call.

You're near when we approach You. You hear us. You see us. You watch over us, and your very name, Emmanuel, means You are with us, and to help us now during this session, in Jesus' name. Amen.

Scott: Amen.

Steve: In the 17th chapter, we have just finished Korah's rebellion. God wants to make sure that these people don't do it again. He gives them a plan, and He tells Moses, get the leaders to turn over their staff. Then put them all together before Jehovah at the tent of testimony.

The next day, Aaron's staff was seen, and it was clear that God had made a distinction. God had showed that these two guys, Moses and Aaron, were not to be messed with, and somehow that really struck a chord.

Now, personally, I already knew that those were the two main guys, but apparently these people didn't, and that's why they were always fussing and complaining, and now God had made a point.

I felt led to go deeper into the last verse in that chapter, which says, "The people of Israel said to Moses, behold, we perish. We are undone." I looked at those words. That is not nearly what it says. “Perish” is we utterly die. We are about to be destroyed.

Undone sounds like, “Oh no” but the word is stronger than that. It's used 180 times, and 130 of them have to do with perish and destroyed. They were afraid. Then it goes on to say, "Everyone who comes near, who comes near to the tabernacle of Jehovah shall die. Are we all to utterly die?"

I feel like the translators softened that whole verse up by saying, "Oh, we perish." No, you're utterly dead, you're going to be destroyed. They learned something that day. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and they learned. That was a very effective strategy. 

In the 18th chapter, we discuss Aaron, and the tribe of Levi, and what their responsibilities were. Again, as I'm reading, the Holy Spirit points verses out to me.

I looked at the sixth and seventh verses, "I have taken your brothers the Levites from among the people of Israel. They are a gift to you, given to Jehovah, to do the service of the tent of meeting." Notice that. Gift. Service.

"And you and your sons with you shall guard your priesthood for all that concerns the altar and all that is within the veil, and you shall serve as a service. I am giving you the priesthood as your special privilege of service, and any outsider who comes near shall be put to death."

I noticed the words gift and service were used. As I looked at the Hebrew for them, I found this two-sentence statement that I felt like grabbed a hold of this concept.

The Hebrew word, ‘matana’ depicts the voluntary transfer of something valuable, whether from God to people, people to God, or one person to another. The term gathers the rich biblical theology of grace and stewardship and covenant responsibility into a single word.

There's what we have, the Levites and the priests were gifted. It was a special privilege of service, and they were to be stewards of this special gift of service, as part of the covenant responsibility. That's all wrapped up in verses six and seven.

And God takes care of them. Very practical. It tells them that the contributions are their perpetual due. It's a covenant of salt. Everything that the people give you, whether this or that is for you. This is how you're going to live. I'm taking care of my people.

He adds, "You shall have no inheritance, neither shall you have a portion among the rest of the tribes. I am your portion and your inheritance among the people of Israel."

In other words, I'll take care of you. You seek first my kingdom, and I'll make sure that all these things are added unto you. That's the principle. This was the tithe for the people of Israel, which was given to the Levites and very, very practical.

I remember my pastor way back when I was in seminary, teaching this concept of living a life of faith and trusting in God. I thought, "Yes, that's what I want to do." Then afterwards, he'd take me aside and say, "How's your tuition coming? Do you have your tuition for the next semester?"

I thought, is this the same man? Who is worrying about that? I'm trusting in God. My pastor had this wonderful blend of being full of faith, and also practical.

The tithe, which is still a principle in the church, that the people that live for the Lord shall receive a tithe from the Lord. We pay our tithes to God, God takes care of His people that are ministering to Him. That's still a principle in the church today.

The 19th chapter is about the heifer. I think you can read it, as it is not difficult. The ashes of the heifer, that's what they used when they made that water of impurity, so they had to do this.

It's very particular again, what you do when you die, what you do if you take care of the heifer, how long you have to be outside the camp, you have to wash yourself, etc.

In the 20th chapter, Miriam passes away. One verse. I thought, boy, I thought they were going to say that they mourned for her for a long time and all this and that, but it says, Miriam died and was buried there.

Now one of the saddest chapters in the Bible, the waters of Meribah. They assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron. These people didn't learn with the rods. They didn't learn with Korah and Dathan and Abiram, and now they're fussing against Moses and Aaron again.

They're quarreling with them. They're taking it out on them. They weren't shaking their fist to God. They said, "Why have you brought us out into this wilderness that we should die here? This is nothing like you promised us. This is no place for grain or figs, and there's no water. Moses and Aaron went from the assembly, and prayed."

These are wise men of God. This is what you do, you don't push back, you pray. God gave them a strategy. He said, "OK, here's what you do. You and Aaron your brother, you tell the rock before their eyes to yield his water." Just talk to the rock.

"Moses and Aaron they gathered them together and says, 'hear now you rebels.'" He's ticked. I couldn't help but think of the verse in the "New Testament", which has always been a difficult one for me because I'd much rather push back than go pray about things.

“The servant of the Lord shall not strive.” Moses was striving now. "Hear you rebels. Shall we bring water for you out of this rock?" Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice, and water came out abundantly, and they drank."

My second thought is, Jesus is the rock. Moses just struck the Son of God twice with his stick, his rod. But the sentence that they used to describe it, God said, "Because you did not trust me enough to demonstrate my holiness to the people of Israel, you will not lead them into the land I'm giving them."

I've chewed on that verse and I get it. I don't understand the language too much, and I read it every year and I go over it in my mind. You did not esteem Me as holy, you did not uphold Me as holy."

Holy means to be sacred, set apart, special, and somehow they did not put God to the front. Instead, they took out their wrath on these stupid people and they beat the rock. I’m not sure and I feel so sad for Moses.

This is Moses who's laid his life down for these rebellious stiff-necked people, and he spent 40 years with them in the wilderness, and now he doesn't get to go into the land. He did later because we read the rest of the story in Matthew. 

Then they come to the king of Moab, a kind of relative. And the Edomites. Or Esau-ites. They said, "No, we're not coming through," so they went around them.

In the 20th chapter, they came to Mount Hor. "Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron at Mount Hor, let Aaron be gathered to his people."

Before he did, he took off his priestly garments and put them on Eliezer his son, and Aaron was gathered up to his people on top of the mountain. The house of Israel wept for Aaron 30 days." Israel knows how to grieve.

Then in the 21st chapter, the king of Arad who lived in the Negev. It's spelled N-E-G-E-B, Negeb, but it's Negev with a V sound because it's a soft “beth”. They lived in the Negev, which you can look up any map. Negev is in the South, about half of the whole land of Israel is desert, and it's in the South.

This is where they're going. They're going around Edom now because they can't go through. The king of Arad comes out, and he fought with them. There were no negotiations. He fought against them, and took some of them captive.

Israel said, "If you give this people into my hand, I will devote their cities to destruction." They did, and they wiped them out. Then, as they are going around the land of Edom, people are becoming impatient.

These are from the younger generation, and the people are speaking against God and against Moses again. Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no food, there is no water, we're tired of this worthless food.

They're tired of manna, which is called the bread of angels, which Jesus says was me. They're tired of Jesus. I hate to say it, but that's the kind of stuff that you see here.

God had enough and he sent fiery serpents among the people which bit them so that many people died. They repented. "Help us, take away these serpents." God said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and if anybody looks at that bronze serpent, he shall live."

This is not the only time this is mentioned in the Bible. It is fascinating, though, to picture this serpent wrapped around a pole, stuck way up, and it must have been a pretty good size. It couldn't have been four feet or no one could have seen it, so it was a big serpent and it looks like they carried it with them for decades.

In John 3:13-15, "No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life."

This is why we read these things because now John 3 makes so much sense to us. We also see in 2 Kings that that serpent became an end in itself instead of a way for people to be healed and in a way to get their eyes on God and repent, now it had become an end in itself, and the people were making offerings to it, but we're getting ahead of ourself.

There is a snake-entwined symbol which is known as the rod of Asclepius, the Greek god of healing. I think we know that this rod of Asclepius is really based on the bronze serpent in the wilderness. One of the resources I checked said, it is the only true symbol of medicine. Today, we’ve forgotten about all mister Asclepius, but we do know when we see a serpent wrapped around a cross that that's the symbol of medicine.

In the 21st chapter, we meet Sihon, king of the Amorites, and they fought with him and won. Then we meet Og, king of Bashan, and he's only mentioned one time in this chapter, but he's mentioned 22 times throughout scripture.

Sihon is mentioned 34 times in scripture because God continues to remind the people of Israel, look. You wiped out the Amorites. You took care of Og, whose bed was 13 feet long. He was a giant. If you can take care of these giants, you can take care of other giants. I don't want to say too much. It's very clear when you're reading out what's going on. 

Then we come to Mr. Balaam, in the 22nd chapter. Everybody knows the story about the talking donkey. What I find convicting is when God talks to Balaam, and says, "Don't go with them."

Then they send some fancier people, with more money, and more influence. Balaam says, "Why don't you guys spend the night and then I'll talk to God again and see what He'll say to me."

God said, "OK, the men have come to call you, go with them, but only do what I tell you." "So Balaam rose in the morning and he went with them." Now remember, the first time he prayed, God said don't go with them. That should have been the end.

I've watched people do this in my personal ministry, and they pray and get an answer, and they don't need to continue praying. Some of them persist praying, should I keep dating this unbeliever?

I'm saying, "No, it says clearly in the Bible." However they keep praying, and finally say, "Oh, I feel like I can do this" and they get married and end in disaster. May God help us to not push for our way.

Let’s not keep badgering God until God gives us our way because, “There is a way that seems right to a man and the end thereof is death” Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25. I've memorized those a long time ago.

My pastor has been preaching on Numbers for the last several weeks, and he brought something up about the sword of the angel. We know that the first time in scripture we see an angel with a sword, it's keeping us out of Eden because we've sinned.

Now this sword of the angel is keeping Balaam from cursing Israel because God has purposed that He is going to give them the promised land. He made a promise and Balaam is not going to hinder that. He puts the angel with the flaming sword there.

I've never seen that before, and I think it's one of those misdirections. We see a donkey with more intelligence than Balaam. We see him asking great questions. It should have been Balaam, the wise man asking questions, but the donkey's teaching him.

The angel is standing there with his sword, and he was keeping Moab and Midian from getting in the way of Israel. That sword was for God's people. This is a very different perspective.

In the 23rd chapter, Balaam is prophesying. I never understood the 21st verse, "He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither has He seen perverseness in Israel."

Every year, when I would read that verse, I would think, who is he looking at? I have watched these people from Exodus all the way up to this point, and I have beheld a lot of iniquity. I have seen a lot of perverseness in Israel.

I wrote a big question mark in the margin of my Bible because I knew that God's word was inspired and true and doesn't change, but I could not figure out how anybody could look at Jacob and Israel and not see iniquity and perverseness.

Then after 15 years, I understood. I was looking forward to teaching it for our family devotions. We were reading through the Bible a chapter at a time, and were coming up to this.

I couldn't wait because I finally had something fresh. We read Numbers 23, and I said, "Can anybody tell me how Balaam in the scripture, could say there is no iniquity in Jacob?"

Ethan raised his hand and said, "Well, they were offering sacrifices daily in the tabernacle." I sighed and I thought, me with my seminary degree, who had read the Bible through 15 times, couldn’t get it, and here's my young son, who grasps it the first time.

Even though the cleansing from the tabernacle was not nearly as effective as the blood of Jesus in the new covenant, it still worked. That's my take. That's why He could not see iniquity in Jacob because they had offered up sacrifices for their sin.

The rest of that verse says, "Jehovah his God is with him and the shout of a king is among them." Then in the 22nd verse, there's an interesting animal that is introduced. My son Isaac taught me about this years ago.

This animal is often translated the wild ox, but it's re'em, and it is a large, untamable, extremely strong animal. It's extinct now, as far as we know, but there's pictures of them in ancient literature. 

This was the ultimate test for a hunter. Have you killed a re’em? Have you killed that wild ox? Israel was associated with this wild ox, God brings them out of Egypt and is for them like the horns of the wild ox. In other words, God's got their back. God's on their team. 

This animal again in the 24th chapter in the 8th verse. This wild ox, which is untamable, and undomesticatable, I don't know if that's a word, but they could not turn that into like an ox that would pull Conestoga wagons across the United States or anything like that. They were untamable and strong.

Balaam finally gets with the program. He is on a roll now, and no matter where Balak pushes him, he keeps coming up with prophecy after prophecy, and it's wonderful stuff.

"How lovely are your tents, O Jacob, your encampments, O Israel, like palm groves that stretch afar, like gardens beside a river, like aloes that Jehovah has planted." Whew, this is all beautiful stuff. Then he starts prophesying about the surrounding nations, and it's all good stuff there.

After these couple chapters with Balaam, you feel like, wow, they dodged a bullet here. Balaam, who we really don't know much about, but somehow he got his prayers answered, and he who he blessed were blessed, and who he cursed, he cursed. Israel was about to be cursed, and instead they were blessed. Some of those prophecies are still vibrating to this day.

Then in the 25th chapter, "While Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to whore with the daughters of Moab. They invited the people to their sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods." So Israel joined or yoked themselves to Baal Peor.

You know what it says in Exodus 34:11-16? If they've been reading their Bibles they would know. "Observe what I command you this day, behold, I will drive out before you the Amorites," that was Sihon, "the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and Jebusites.

Take care lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in your midst. You shall tear down their altars, and break their pillars, and cut down their asherah."

Then in parentheses this poignant statement is made, "For you shall worship no other god, for Jehovah, Whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” He goes on to say, "Lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of land when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and you are invited, you eat of this sacrifice, and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods."

That's exactly what they did, their sin or rebellion is almost word for word. If you look in Numbers 25, the first several verses, then read in Exodus 34:11-16, they did exactly what God said to them not to do.

Immediately the anger of God was kindled. He said, "Take the chiefs of the people, hang them in the sun." They were the ones responsible. One of the people of Israel came, and brought a Midianite woman to his family in the sight of Moses. It even tells you who they are. 

Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, he's Aaron's grandson, he saw it. He rose and left the congregation, who were weeping and praying, and this guy, as brazenly as possible takes this woman from Midian into his tent. "Phinehas grabbed a spear, went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and pierced both of them."'

It's pretty clear what they were doing because the spear went through both of them and the woman through her belly. One spear and they both died. "Thus the plague and the people of Israel was stopped. Nevertheless, those who died by the plague were 24,000 people."

It tells us later who they were. Recall what we just read. "You shall worship no other god, for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” Here's what God says about Phinehas. "Phinehas the son of Eleazar, son of Aaron the priest has turned back my wrath from the people of Israel in that he was jealous with my jealousy among them, so that I did not consume the people of Israel in my jealousy."

Phinehas, his heart, mind, and spirit were beating with God's heart, mind, and spirit. God was jealous Phineas was jealous, and he turned the day because he was in harmony with God's thoughts. He was attuned to God.

I remember there used to be a very prominent Christian who was involved in helping the poor, and he said, "Father, break my heart with the things that break your heart." I love that idea. May God make us jealous for what He's jealous for.

May God help us to love what He loves, and God help us to hate what He hates, because that's why we're here to watch and follow Jesus and be like Him, and be like God. Phinehas was like God in this. I aspire to be like Phinehas. 

Numbers 26, big census. That's all I'm going to say. Long census. Scott, what do you have for us?

Scott: Once again, back when Moses struck the rock, there are moments in my own life that come to mind where I get sarcastic with God or angry or whatever, and I could see myself standing there doing that same dumb thing, man. I know.

I want to think I'd be better, but I know myself. Fine. You want me to give these people water here? Whack. It's heartbreaking to read, and it's holding a mirror up to me. There are times when I know I've done stuff that would probably be similar. Then with the Israelites, going along with the Moabites.

Steve: We're going to find out later where they got the idea, but I don't want to spoil the story.

Scott: I get that being tempted for the sexual immorality and all that. I'm sure there were beautiful women, and it's tempting. But about the point where they started offering sacrifices to their god, that's the part where I have trouble seeing myself doing that. I'm like, anybody wants me to sacrifice to their idol with, I'm out, man. That's creepy, weird stuff.

I've seen my God do big things. These people, they've at least heard the stories of how they were rescued by God, if not seen it themselves. How do you do this?

Steve: These are second-generation people. Like you said, if they didn't see it, they at least heard about it. I'm going to put that in as a teaser. Keep reading and watch because there was someone that gave them counsel on how to take down the Israelites. That's all I'm going to say.

Let's pray. Father, thank you for your word. It's so rich and as Scott has said, so practical. Help us to not do dumb stuff. Help us to not push for our way. Help us to heed what we've been taught. Help us to walk in light of that. Line us up with your beating heart.

Help us to think like You think and value what You value and put off what You desire for us to put off because You know what's good for us. You created us and You love us and You have nothing but our best interests at heart. In Jesus name, amen.

Scott: Amen. That's our show for this week, folks. Thanks for joining us for the Building Faith and Family podcast with Steve Demme. If you have a question for the show, email steve@spdemme@Gmail.com. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week.