The Gygax Legacy: Honoring Gary and Building the Future of Gaming with Heidi & Erik Garland

In this episode of Directors Dungeon, Chris Moreland sits down with Heidi Gygax Garland and her husband Erik Garland to talk about the legacy of Gary Gygax, the co-creator of Dungeons & Dragons. Heidi, Gary's daughter, shares her personal perspective on growing up in a household where gaming was a huge part of everyday life. She talks about what it was like being the child of a man who would change the world of tabletop games forever, and how his work impacted her family and the wider gaming community.

Heidi opens up about some of the special memories she has from her childhood, showing a side of Gary that many people don’t get to see. Erik joins in with his own thoughts, helping to broaden the conversation about the role of gaming, storytelling, and family. Together, they offer a unique look at how Dungeons & Dragons grew from a home project to a worldwide phenomenon.

The episode also covers EGGCon, the convention Heidi and Erik started to honor Gary’s legacy. Heidi talks about the hard work that went into organizing the event, which quickly became a success. From the early planning stages to hosting their second EGGCon, they share their experiences of building a community around their father’s impact on the world of gaming. The conversation highlights not only the challenges of running a convention but also the joy that comes from bringing together people who share a love for gaming and its history.

Listeners will also hear about Heidi’s own journey into the gaming world. She talks about how she’s continued her father’s work by contributing to various writing projects and helping keep his legacy alive. Throughout the episode, Heidi and Erik touch on how the gaming community has changed, with a particular focus on the increasing involvement of women in the gaming scene, something Heidi is passionate about.

This episode is a special look at Gary Gygax’s legacy, not just in the world of Dungeons & Dragons, but in the lives of his family. It’s a celebration of how games can bring people together, tell stories, and leave a lasting mark on the world. Fans of Dungeons & Dragons and anyone interested in gaming history will find this conversation both informative and heartfelt.

🧙‍♀️ Heidi Gygax Garland’s Social Media

• Instagram: @gaxland — Heidi shares updates about their tabletop role-playing game (TTRPG) projects and events.
  
  
• X (formerly Twitter): @heidigygax — She posts about game design, family, and their creative projects.
  
  
• LinkedIn: Heidi Gygax Garland — She shares professional updates, including their Kickstarter campaign for Dragon Derby: The Sport of Wizards.
  
  
• Facebook: GAXLAND — The official page for their gaming company, featuring product announcements and event information.
  
  
• StoryCorps Interview:

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Produced by: Build Something Media

Transcript

[01:00:09:20 - 01:00:12:00]
 All right, so let's start with EGGCon.

[01:00:13:02 - 01:00:22:24]
 Where did the idea originate? Was it something that you always hoped to do to honor your dad and did it emerge or did it emerge from a different conversation altogether?

[01:00:24:21 - 01:00:55:08]
 Yeah, the EGGCon concept emerged. Eric and I were in here working last year in February in our office here and talking about cons. And we said, there's no convention in this area during the summer. And that's when my dad's birthday is. So we thought we would start a small con and it would be something we could run and put together. And not having really organized a whole convention before. I mean, I've done bits and pieces in the early days with Gary Con.

[01:00:57:00 - 01:01:58:00]
 But boy, we just kind of pulled it together very quickly and it was successful. I mean, just very small. We had to find a venue. So we started in late February of 2024 and made it happen in July. And it did so well. We went ahead and got a larger venue for EGGCon 2 and a lot more special guests. And fortunately with people that I know from time at TSR and people that worked with my dad and sometimes with people that worked with me or I was friends with from the old TSR days. And they were willing to come and run games and hang out. So we've got something pretty special for us such a small con with the type of special guests that we have, the people that are part of it. Could you, would you mind sharing some of the guests who are coming to the con? Sure. This is always where I need to have a list in front of me. But do you wanna?

[01:02:00:08 - 01:02:12:11]
 Oh, I thought you had, I thought you were going for a screenshot. Let's see. I can open up a screen. Yeah, we have a screenshot. Yeah, we have Frank Menser, Steve Sullivan, Harold Johnson.

[01:02:13:16 - 01:02:28:21]
 I need to have a screen in front of me. It's coming. So you got a lot of the original people who were there in Lake Geneva for TSR. Yes. At the beginning. Yes, Sonya Akwright from the museum and the Wizard of Lake Geneva exhibit.

[01:02:29:21 - 01:02:44:16]
 Some artists, Chris Artisan, who also did our logo work this year. He's right behind me here too. Yes. Heather Ashcraft, who also does podcasts and TikToks and a game designer.

[01:02:45:18 - 01:02:49:16]
 Ben Barche and Bill Barche are coming.

[01:02:51:06 - 01:02:57:05]
 Jeff Butler, artist from TSR days does a lot of, and he also teaches art in University of Wisconsin, Madison.

[01:02:58:13 - 01:02:58:24]
 Chris Clark.

[01:03:01:18 - 01:03:07:12]
 Inner City Games. He wrote our con, the adventure, our tournament module for this year. Yes.

[01:03:08:14 - 01:03:25:20]
 Dave Conant, who and Tom Wam, they work with the Tom Wam games and I've known Dave forever since he was the IT guys back at TSR in all days. Chuck Kumbo of Troll Lords. Yep. Dale Donovan.

[01:03:27:18 - 01:03:32:22]
 Jeff Easley, most people are very familiar, anybody who RPG world knows artists, Jeff Easley.

[01:03:33:24 - 01:03:37:00]
 Of course, I'll be there. Alan Hammock is coming up.

[01:03:38:06 - 01:03:41:00]
 And I mentioned Harold Johnson, Ron Meischer.

[01:03:42:18 - 01:03:55:15]
 Ron's a good guy. Yeah. Yeah, I mentioned Frank already. Frank's running our special game for the Game Wizard over at the museum on Friday night for a special group. Artist Chet Minton,

[01:03:56:15 - 01:04:07:06]
 he's done a lot of work for us for "Catsland". Michael Mernard, who was one of the early gamers and very involved with-

[01:04:08:09 - 01:04:20:00]
 You've gotta be crazy to print a thousand of those. Yeah. I'll never sell. Yeah, he used to be over at our house when I was a kid. I also was friends with his sister on there, but he used to game at our house since he was a teenager.

[01:04:22:03 - 01:04:24:04]
 T.R. Nickel from-

[01:04:27:12 - 01:04:27:21]
 Roseworks.

[01:04:29:01 - 01:04:38:02]
 Ruby, Rose, anyway. publishing. Yes. Yes. Red Rose. Red Rose, okay. Yes. Yes, cause Jerry Red Shepherd and T.R. Nickel.

[01:04:39:15 - 01:04:42:09]
 Victoria Perrin will be there.

[01:04:43:11 - 01:04:46:16]
 Stefan Prokordi and Stefan-

[01:04:47:16 - 01:04:48:24]
 Dormant Forge. Yes, Dormant Forge.

[01:04:50:08 - 01:05:19:11]
 It's a lot. Yeah, that's an all-star cast for sure. Yes. Bill Silby, the dungeon delver. He has his YouTube show and Paul Stormberg is bringing his legends of war gaming and the sand table and he'll be set up and there'll be a legends of war gaming area. And I'm hoping he'll also do Joust, which he does it on your account, which is great. I mentioned Steve Sullivan, author, game designer. I don't know if I remember. Jeffrey Telanian.

[01:05:21:19 - 01:05:51:08]
 I'm astonishing swordsman. Hyperboreo. Yeah, hyperboreo. Mark Tarmino, who I've known just basically online and through backing some of his things that he's done, but he's coming to Lake Geneva. He's Dark Wizard Games. If he can get time from his acting stuff. Yeah, he does some acting parts as well. Yeah, he's been going to, not interviews, trials, auditions and he keeps getting parts. He's, yeah. That's lovely.

[01:05:52:08 - 01:06:09:24]
 And, oh yeah, Cosmo Joe from, does Phoenix Con up there. So Andy Watkins, Cosmo Joe, as he's better known. And Penny and Skip Williams, who have been around again. I've known them since I was a kid and they were very young as well and working at TSR.

[01:06:11:16 - 01:06:16:10]
 Yeah, here are a lot of names there that show up in those books. Yes. Yeah.

[01:06:17:16 - 01:06:36:17]
 So tell me a little bit about, because I know that it's starting at Con and talking about starting at Con, a lot of folks do that, right? So, can you talk about some of the logistics that making a convention such a large lift, right? Because I know that you're going through that pain, obviously in the pain of growth too.

[01:06:38:00 - 01:06:41:18]
 What does that look like to get something like that going from the ground up like you have?

[01:06:43:02 - 01:06:44:16]
 It just takes a lot of,

[01:06:45:18 - 01:06:51:15]
 it's like a job. You have to have your task list, your timeline of when things need to be done.

[01:06:52:22 - 01:07:05:07]
 You have to invest some money into it and that can be risky because you have to rent venues. There's different venues have different requirements of what is needed. Either it's a flat rate or some of them have food and beverage requirements,

[01:07:06:12 - 01:07:07:19]
 especially if you're in a resort town.

[01:07:08:23 - 01:07:28:16]
 (Laughs) On the busiest weekend of the year. Yeah, one of the very busiest for weddings and things. But we found a good venue. There's just a lot of follow up, little things you think like, "Oh, we need to order this and that. "We need to get things ready." So, we are still looking for some more sponsors, some things, we have our passport,

[01:07:30:01 - 01:07:45:21]
 which is like the little, the showbook. And we are gonna go around town because we list some local businesses and things for people to do. So, we still need to get out there because we've got to send that to print soon. So, that's on the task list this afternoon and follow up with a few more businesses.

[01:07:47:11 - 01:08:20:10]
 Just, it's a, you have to, and then really the marketing trying to let people know what's happening because not everybody is gonna know and they might wanna come, especially with the fantastic list of special guests that we have and that it is a small con. So, it's, and we have a lot of games. We do. We have over 200 events. And so, everybody's gonna be able to play games all the time and we have a really nice vendor area we're calling the Bazaar.

[01:08:21:14 - 01:09:32:22]
 So, we have- We have great vendors. Yes. About how many? We're very lucky. We have an artist section. About 20 vendors. Yeah, so we've got about 20 vendors there. So, it's not a huge area because our venue is not huge. Right. We have enough room for our gamer. I mean, we have plenty of room for everything we're doing. Yes. We didn't wanna take up more game space though. So, that's the balance too. That's, but yeah, I think it was, people had so much fun last year and we think this year is definitely better. We have better venue or more organized. We're way more organized. Yeah. So, last year was, you know, hey, let's have a con. Let's do it in four months and let's- So, we had a little bit of space in a conference room at Comfort Suites. And then we got the American Legion Hall which holds 70, 80 people comfortably. And then, but we were actually gaming. We were doing events at seven or eight places in Lake Geneva. And that's where the passport came from. So, we created this passport so everybody would have a map and we made the passport a game. Go to all these places and take a selfie or get your passport stamped with a little egg stamp. We provided and we found some locations. And that served a dual purpose. One, it spread all the people out because we did not have enough room for everybody who had signed up at one place.

[01:09:34:06 - 01:10:04:01]
 But it also, they, all of these gamers were going to businesses and going in. And they were talking about Kerry Gygax and Eggcon and gaming. And some of the businesses hadn't had a lot of experience with that. And then some of them were, bring back any receipt, make any purchase, put it in the passport. And so we were trying to get the businesses. And we did get feedback from one business. They said they keep track by the day. And so, if we're comparing that day to the previous year, they had tripled the business

[01:10:05:09 - 01:10:19:13]
 and they attributed it to Eggcon. So they have this positive. And not just the businesses, but we want people to get over to the Lake Geneva Public Library as well. I mean, the museum is a business, but it's a nonprofit. So a lot of people experienced that.

[01:10:20:16 - 01:10:23:09]
 Go to like the different, the Riviera, the bench,

[01:10:24:10 - 01:10:31:10]
 up to Oak Hill Cemetery, where my dad has a headstone. Put all of those things on there. But then people came back and if they finished

[01:10:32:17 - 01:11:01:01]
 a certain number of the places, and then we had some dice that we gave them a couple of these sixes that are Eggcon dice. And then we put one, we put all of the people who made a certain number, we did a drawing. So, we turned the map of the city into a game as well. And we're gonna do that again this year because it worked. Yeah, that's really cool. You can almost make it to where every business that you go to, you get a different dice that goes. And if you get a whole set, you get something else.

[01:11:02:03 - 01:11:17:07]
 Oh, wow. I'll get that on my list. Yeah, maybe if we have a lot more money. You're giving me ideas with all this cool stuff you're talking about, right? That is a great idea for years rare for. Yeah, let's go, like year 10, that's the 10th anniversary celebration, right? Okay.

[01:11:18:21 - 01:11:24:20]
 (Both Laughing) Hopefully we won't be doing all of it ourselves. We do have some great, we have volunteers and people helping out with it.

[01:11:25:21 - 01:11:35:21]
 It's pretty much Eric and I, and then I'm a lot of Eric right now. I hurt my back, so I'm like just hanging on right now. (Both Laughing) It should be better.

[01:11:36:22 - 01:11:52:01]
 Well, I hope to get you a little bit of media for it. I know I've gotten a little bit of video and stuff over to you for "Dragon Dory" and this might be a little, this might help a little, but I don't know. Yeah, that's great.

[01:11:54:07 - 01:12:09:16]
 But I would like to put together like a little ad because I don't know if you're running any TV ads or anything in Chicago or Milwaukee or anywhere around, but it's more affordable than you might think. And I could set it up for you and all that stuff.

[01:12:10:19 - 01:12:53:03]
 So you could potentially promote it in those cities. So like-- Yeah, that would be something to consider, but TV ads, I did hear something about that, that TV ads have gotten very affordable, but-- Yes, and like internet ads, they're very, very targeted and you have a captive audience, which means they can't skip the ad. And so it's like you could target people who watch the Dungeons and Dragons movie or who watch "Stranger Things" who may be more adjacent, who may be a more adjacent audience to the type of person who would come visit you at the time. Right, that would be great, yeah. Yeah, so I was talking to Jamie about that earlier. I was like, we need to talk to him about that because I bet we could do that for this and for "Dragon Days" and really amplify it in a very, very, very good way.

[01:12:55:16 - 01:12:55:24]
 Let's see.

[01:12:58:07 - 01:13:30:05]
 Let's see what we got. I think a Puma just walked behind you. There's a Dorphus, there's some very large creature just wanting to die. Was that a dog? That's a dog, so that's my dog, Hank. He's a German short-haired pointer. Gotcha. Yeah, I saw something in my brain at first was thinking Mittens is walking back. No, that wasn't Mittens. It was a very sleek profile that went by and I thought, I wonder if he knows. Yes, there's this creature lurking behind him. He may not be with us much longer.

[01:13:32:08 - 01:13:33:03]
 Oh, that's funny.

[01:13:37:11 - 01:13:39:13]
 Let's see, let's move to "Dragon Derby."

[01:13:41:15 - 01:13:49:20]
 So for people unfamiliar with it, give us what your elevator pitch has been to everyone when you've spoken to them about the game

[01:13:50:20 - 01:15:21:17]
 since you started putting it together and pitching it. Do you want me to? When I'd say "Dragon Derby," it's working, now it's for two to 10 players. Think of you're betting on the, you're at the Kentucky Derby, but instead of betting on horses, you are a wizard betting on dragons racing around a track. But the thing that can really cause a lot of chaos and fun and change in the game, there's wild magic. So you can move the dragons, you can place wagers, and your wizard can cast wild magic on their turn. One of those things. And that can change up what's happening on the board, how you're moving, things on the board. It can affect, well, you're not moving because you're not the dragon, but it can affect, if you bet on a certain dragon to win or lose, you have some investment in it. And at the end, you earn crowns by certain moves, crowns are the money. And when you wager, if you happen to wager correctly, you get more money, and the one with the, that ends with the most money as the first dragon crosses the finish line, you win. And it's pretty, it's fast moving, it's fun, it's 45 minutes to an hour generally in a round, because there's a lot of things that can change, so that can cause it to go a little longer or faster. And it's, we've done enough different cards and different variables in it, so that it will not be the same game.

[01:15:22:21 - 01:15:37:16]
 Each time you play it, it has enough variables that it'll be different. So some cards will never show up in a game because there's more cards generally than you will need for the wild magic and everybody gets a dastardly deed card at the beginning of the game,

[01:15:38:19 - 01:15:45:11]
 which is just, has a little bit more power than a regular wild magic card. So it can throw in some fun.

[01:15:46:14 - 01:16:00:12]
 Then, Eric had this great idea, do you wanna explain the flip side of the board? We decided to make it a two-sided board. The game keeps, the game, you know, and this was one of those conversations, it was late at night and it was like, because we don't have enough to do, let's do a board game.

[01:16:01:22 - 01:16:10:17]
 (Laughing) So there've been, the ideas have evolved, people have given suggestions. And in this case, it was the vendor, the vendor who we're working with and we're actually uploading files to now,

[01:16:12:00 - 01:16:38:02]
 had said, oh, by the way, the backside of the board, it's remarkably affordable if you want to have something printed on the backside, you can do a second board. And so we were like, hey, you know, we've already done all of our art, we're at the point where we're sort of finished, what would we do? And so we sort of sat on it and I think we probably came up with it together. We're like, you know, we ought to do a map of Geneva and play it as a game board. And so put in all these spots. So we went back to our artists, we sent them another pile of money and it's done.

[01:16:39:07 - 01:17:14:05]
 Do you wanna see it? Would you like to see it? Yeah, I'd love to. So I'm gonna share screen, I've never done this before. So I'm gonna send a window. So let's see what happens here. Okay, so you'll have to scroll. Yeah, so I'm gonna, so there's the entire board. It's inside of Photoshop. Can you see it? I can. Okay, so I'm gonna zoom in just a little bit. So the game starts at 330 Center Street, is our straight line. And so John did the building at 330 Center Street and he rendered it out, put a dragon on top.

[01:17:15:24 - 01:17:18:03]
 And you start at 330 Center Street

[01:17:19:04 - 01:17:28:03]
 and you race past the Lake Geneva Museum, which is the home of the Wizard of Lake Geneva exhibit,

[01:17:29:06 - 01:17:31:10]
 which he drew out in his art, I just love.

[01:17:32:20 - 01:18:07:17]
 And then you pass the dungeon hobby shop, Old TSR HQ, which is now Killwinds Chocolates on Main and Broad. You're gonna go to the fountain where the marker is. There's a walking path from there that goes up by the library. And of course he drew all the dragons. And so you're running up the lakeside, got his albert and his, I mean, his art, I just love it. It's so great. Yeah, and he has the books, one of the Wizards there with the books from the library. Yeah, you head north to town, you got the purple worm, his beholder.

[01:18:09:06 - 01:18:17:05]
 We're gonna go up past Pioneer Cemetery, we're gonna go to Dodge Street, which is Gary's childhood home,

[01:18:18:05 - 01:18:24:07]
 which he put into a Jotness Cube. We're gonna go past the Pioneer Cemetery and the werewolves, which was a great story.

[01:18:26:15 - 01:19:06:21]
 We're gonna go past the haunted Lake Geneva Depot where the train and some of these squares will have a little bit of information in what it causes to happen with the dragons. It's a slightly different mechanic as the other side. So the haunted train, cause Gary used to take the train. Yeah, the Chicago Northwestern too, when he was an insurance underwriter and he used to go to Chicago every day. There's a new book coming out from this company, Yaxland where the Chicago Northwestern was in fact haunted. You'll learn that soon. And so then we start heading south again and we go past the Gargoyle Restaurant and the Wrath of Skellar and a place that Mary and Gary used to, they used to go eat and it has a long history. There's a speakeasy.

[01:19:07:22 - 01:19:37:18]
 We're gonna go past Horticultural Hall, which is the first Gen Con and then we're going to return to the birthplace of Dungeons and Dragons. And you have to cross the finish line and end. And so it's a little bit shorter track. So we're talking about making it, you know, that you go around twice, but we're doing some things, but it's very cool. Yeah, we've added a lap mechanic. So there's gonna be six more cards because we just haven't printed and had to design enough. So each dragon will have a lap card. So they can be used on either board game if you wanted to extend the game out to do a lap.

[01:19:39:00 - 01:19:43:19]
 And so that's what the board looks like on the backside.

[01:19:45:05 - 01:19:45:14]
 To step.

[01:19:46:15 - 01:19:46:23]
 Yeah.

[01:19:48:07 - 01:20:03:01]
 Let's see here. Am I back here? There we go. There we are. We can see you again. From our side, it was like all of this, but we're really excited. I mean, it was for John to come out with it. And he really was, he was really working with her because he wanted all the buildings to look just right. Do you wanna show about the main side?

[01:20:04:05 - 01:20:04:10]
 Yeah.

[01:20:05:12 - 01:20:25:09]
 Sensing it. I mean, I should have, I'm sorry. Oh my God. Sorry. Yeah, we're really, really pleased. It's, and then that does this neat thing for us that we'll be able to, the museum has said that they'll put it in their gift shop. And so we'll be able to market it because it'll be the like Geneva edition.

[01:20:27:06 - 01:21:08:20]
 Let's see, there we go. Yeah, I mean, I bet there's a bunch of little gift shops along that strip that would probably be interested in that. We probably are gonna reach out to all of them. Yeah, there's a Treasure Cove, which I didn't even realize because I hadn't gone in there in years as they started carrying a lot of D&D stuff. They have whole sets of dice. They have t-shirts talking about that it's the, where the adventure begins. And so we talked to them, they're sponsoring our past book as well. So we'll have a little half of their Treasure Cove right down by the lake on Broad Street. So here's the main game board and this, I'm sure this one looks familiar to you. It does, yes. Yeah, so.

[01:21:10:00 - 01:21:19:03]
 It's a little different. Yeah. We start, I'm sorry, let me scroll down to the starting line. So we come across the bottom of the screen.

[01:21:20:12 - 01:21:54:02]
 This has a little different, of course, it's all made up and we've renamed it, you know, the Dragon Lands board or Dragon Lands edition or Dragon Lands track. I need to decide on that before we send this off. Yeah, we're getting ready in the next couple of days to send it to print. And of course, cards can affect the gameplay and some of the cards can cause, the first obstacle you really run into is a portcullis and the portcullis will collapse. You lay the card here. May if that comes up through. Right, or might not. If it does, you have to detour. If it's in the cards. If it's in the cards, if you have to detour or not.

[01:21:55:06 - 01:21:57:20]
 Because of course the dragons will always take the shortest route.

[01:21:59:14 - 01:22:01:24]
 John adds in his various pieces of art.

[01:22:03:03 - 01:22:07:08]
 Again, he loves his mimics and his things.

[01:22:08:22 - 01:22:21:00]
 The dragons run the track, they can cross the bridge. There's various things that can, the bridge can collapse or a troll could be summoned to the bridge. And again, they're all random. So every game is different.

[01:22:23:01 - 01:22:54:07]
 And you get to the finish line. One thing that is different with this board is the other than a few instructions, everything that can happen to you is random is in the cards. It's there's wild magic cards. The Lake Geneva board will have some specific spots where things happen. So there's a story, tell the story about your dad. So the cemetery, pioneer cemetery. Oh, okay, the story, yes. Right, that story.

[01:22:55:14 - 01:23:03:05]
 When he was a youngster, he and his friend, one of his friends, I'm trying to think of this Tom, I think it was Tom Kew.

[01:23:04:24 - 01:23:08:20]
 Do we wanna share in this? We wanna be able to see your face. Yes.

[01:23:10:06 - 01:24:45:16]
 So he used to like, his parents were older, especially his father was older. And so he would sneak out a lot after his parents were in bed. So he was, I don't remember his exact age, but he was probably pre-teen to early teen. He got out a pair of the old leather gloves, for winter gloves, it had the fur, like rabbit fur lined. And he got a pair of those and he put on this fur, chin coat that was dead. They went out and they knew that there was-- He turned the gloves inside out. He turned the gloves inside out. Cause when you do that, if you've ever seen a pair of those gloves, you turn them inside out. Of course I've done this because when I was a kid, I wanted to see what it looked like. And it looks like, you know, like monster hands or, you know, bear claws. And so they were over there. They knew there was a, I believe she was a waitress at the local diner that would come by and walk up that street at night. And they hid in old Pioneer Cemetery, I got a dog's cheese about a block away from where my dad was living. And they hid behind, you know, one of the stones. And then as she approached, they came up on the edge of the, you know, it's an old iron spiky fence around the corner. And they came up and started growling and stuck their hands through the gate at her. And she screeched and ran across and she ran over and knocked on somebody's door and got in the house, but they freaked out, which they thought was so funny. So then they decided they better run. So as they were running and crossing the fence, it's like I said, the spike tipped iron fence and his friend hopped right over it. And when my dad went to hop over, he didn't quite make it. And his jeans got caught and he ripped his pants.

[01:24:47:04 - 01:24:58:14]
 So he had to explain to his mom why he had a big tear in his pants when he got home, but you know, the next day. But anyway, that was one of his stories. He used to love to do those kind of naughty pranks.

[01:25:00:01 - 01:25:44:22]
 What a young kid to do. I mean, fairly harmless since she didn't have a heart attack or anything, but there were stories about it. She was like, there was something in the cemetery, you know. Yeah. And people on time would talk. So yeah, so we used that a couple of different times. The story is part of a little thing in one of our shadows over Lake Geneva. And then we have it also on our game board for this game. Right, so as the dragons are passing that spot, there will be a designated square that if they land on that square, they'll have to make a saving throw because they're scared of the werewolf. They'll have to make a saving throw to proceed. When they get to the train, the haunted train, they'll be scared by the train. If they land on the specific, they'll have to make a saving throw to proceed.

[01:25:45:24 - 01:25:56:00]
 And then you've played the game just to add another random element because it's so fun to watch people who are wagering on a specific dragon realize it's stuck, you know what I'm saying?

[01:25:57:10 - 01:27:06:14]
 So the board is shorter, so that's why we decided we needed to make the ability to add a second lap or a third lap. Yeah, sure. Well, and it's fascinating because you're playing the game. When you're playing the game, you somehow feel like you are in control of something. Somehow you feel that way. There's a feeling in your body that, "Oh, okay, I got this now. There's nothing that can happen that can prevent one of these three in this group from winning." And then somehow that's not at all what happens and how it turns out. And so it's kind of like if you're a strategist who likes to pretend like you're in control, like this game is perfect for you, right? It's like, yeah, it's like parenthood. The whole team's like, "I've got this. Everything's good." And somehow by the end of the day, you're just tired. And it's like, "I don't understand what just happened." Yeah, no. And I played it in a couple of different iterations of it. And each time it's been that same feeling where you go in and you're like, "All right, I've got a strategy. This is the way I'm gonna watch this. I'm gonna sit and I'm gonna sit back and I'm gonna watch and wait till I make my wagers until the very end." And you do that and you're still like,

[01:27:08:00 - 01:27:30:10]
 "Something still happens." So you have to swap all your cards with the person next to you because you gotta shift everything. And I get a feeling that chaos is something that you enjoy adding to your games. Is that something that's fair to say? Yes, yes. That makes it fun. Otherwise it's much more predictable and we just don't want it to be predictable.

[01:27:31:20 - 01:27:41:03]
 Yeah, and playability was so important. Just we want it to be a different thing every time where somebody can say, "You know, we haven't played doctor a little bit. Let's get it out and make each other really mad."

[01:27:42:03 - 01:27:43:15]
 No, nobody was mad.

[01:27:45:00 - 01:27:50:07]
 Nobody was mad. We were just like, it's one of those things where you're watching a game.

[01:27:51:09 - 01:27:56:02]
 Like you go to a baseball game and it's just a really good baseball game. You know, a really good game.

[01:27:57:04 - 01:28:14:20]
 And it's exciting to watch. And whether you're rooting for one team or another doesn't matter. It's just, you're watching a really good game. And that's kind of how it felt as we were playing it. Sorry, he has to go answer the door. All good. Tell him I say hello. It's always medication. It's, yeah, you're right back.

[01:28:16:17 - 01:28:24:05]
 (Laughs) It has to be signed for. No worries. If you'd like to wait for him, we can. I can cut the part, this part down if you'd like.

[01:28:25:07 - 01:28:27:05]
 I think my next question is about the Kickstarter.

[01:28:43:13 - 01:28:53:11]
 (Chimes)

[01:28:55:24 - 01:28:58:01]
 How are you involved with Dragon Days as well?

[01:28:59:17 - 01:29:11:07]
 We will be vending there, but I'm not involved in it. That's Paul's thing. And yeah, thanks for reminding me. I just have to put our EIN number on there and send it off.

[01:29:12:13 - 01:29:24:17]
 But yes, we'll be there. And actually, I was surprised at the numbers they showed. We didn't see as many people because we were over at the Horticultural Hall, but they're showing that of Dragon Days. He was asking about that.

[01:29:26:01 - 01:29:32:14]
 Had a lot of passerby's, I guess, because it's on the weekend and a busy time of the year. And they're right there in Library Park, which is great.

[01:29:34:18 - 01:29:58:03]
 Yeah. This is, the lesson was up there. I didn't realize how close to Chicago Lake Geneva was because we'd always bypass it when we were coming up. And so, flew into O'Hare and we were there in 45 minutes. And I was like, oh. Yeah. This is, there's a big opportunity with this massive population there to draw from some of the TV audience.

[01:29:59:08 - 01:29:59:13]
 Anyway.

[01:30:01:00 - 01:30:05:00]
 Back to, so the Kickstarter was really successful.

[01:30:06:10 - 01:30:11:22]
 The game obviously is funded, it's getting made. Were you expecting that level of support

[01:30:13:00 - 01:30:14:09]
 as you were going into it?

[01:30:15:17 - 01:30:37:01]
 Don't know. Yeah, it's our first time doing a board game. So, of course we were hoping it would do even better. We put some money into advertising. Not sure, we were pretty sure we wouldn't do that again next time because I think more of the organic, more of the traffic comes from word of mouth and organically rather than just ads popping up on social media.

[01:30:38:14 - 01:30:56:17]
 But, we were so excited it funded and we had some bigger goals, stretch goals that we had. If we hit this, we're gonna do this, this, and this. We've done almost all of those stretch goals. We just decided to include them because we're doing this one time and we wanna make it the best that we can do.

[01:30:58:11 - 01:31:03:18]
 Probably the only thing-- Unless we sell out of the game, we're only doing it one time. Right.

[01:31:05:14 - 01:31:12:24]
 And when you do this to make it affordable, to find a manufacturer that will do this for you, you have to kind of go big.

[01:31:14:03 - 01:31:25:20]
 We will have, so we have the Kickstarter, which did great, and we have free bonus things that won't be available to anybody else besides who backed it.

[01:31:27:14 - 01:32:05:14]
 The people that backed in the first 48 hours, at first it was gonna be 24, but we kicked off on April Fool's Day and didn't realize some people-- Never started to consider April Fool's Day. Some people didn't think it was real, so we gave another day to do the, we're doing a D&D module that goes along with the game. And it's the dragon with the girl tattoo. And we've got the outline for it done, but we're gonna be putting that together. Of course, that will ship together with the game for the people who qualify. It was also an add-on if somebody didn't back it at the very beginning. But we're not gonna have that as something that's available at our booth or beyond. It was for this Kickstarter.

[01:32:08:06 - 01:32:27:00]
 So yeah, I'm very, very proud of what's coming together with this game. In fact, we'll get all our files off and we'll be looking at our first sample. And we're on track for it to be finished and in our hands probably late September and for shipping in October to everybody.

[01:32:28:11 - 01:32:52:18]
 And of course, Karma, Karma being Karma, and our love of chaos has come back to bite us because we're doing this game where we have to get parts produced overseas when we're doing what this generation's round of tariffs. It just had to happen at the exact same time. So another thing we're- Having to work on. Walking the tight rope. Yeah. Right. That's a little bit of karmic payback, I think.

[01:32:54:19 - 01:33:10:24]
 Well, I wouldn't say congratulations about the karmic payback, but I will say congratulations. I don't know why we're having karmic payback. Oh no, because we like to make the game chaos. Yeah, well, we're getting chaos. So the universe is trying to because we're trying to make the game made. So here's some chaos for you. Thanks for adding some clarity to the chaos there.

[01:33:13:17 - 01:33:23:22]
 And congratulations on the Kickstarter. That's really difficult to do. Most of them aren't able to do that. So, it's a big deal. Yeah, we've been very fortunate. What was our sixth?

[01:33:25:15 - 01:34:00:03]
 Fifth Kickstarter. And all of our Kickstarters have funded and delivered on time. Amazing. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah, that's amazing. Thanks. But we make sure, that's the whole thing. Kickstarters, a lot of people are wary of backing. You know, and so we make sure that we, this one we couldn't be as far down the pike as we could with things that are written and just have to be published. We usually deliver within a couple of months of funding. This'll be our longest delivery period, but we're still on track to do it. But when I look at most Kickstarters, they deliver like a year after it funds. And I don't like to do that because,

[01:34:01:08 - 01:34:04:20]
 yeah, well you forget about, you know, what did I back? Oh yeah.

[01:34:06:10 - 01:34:09:06]
 (Laughs) So, we're going, yeah, we,

[01:34:10:10 - 01:34:35:12]
 so it's just a few months and I think it'll be about less than six months. And people have it in hand. Now I probably need to pick both of your brains about how to do that more effectively for myself next time. I'm starting to think that it comes down to, like if I'm going to do a DVD, that's one release. If I'm going to do a VHS, that's a separate thing. Or it's a, that's a stretch goal or something like that. We're thinking about doing a VHS with a digital download

[01:34:36:14 - 01:34:44:02]
 with a, like, there's some special art on it, just making it a collectible type thing. Yeah, people still have their VHS.

[01:34:45:04 - 01:35:15:21]
 I promise, it's back, it's coming back. Look, I've gone to a lot of these resale stores now and you see, like, you see them on the shelf and people are buying them. I was in Savannah, probably a month or two ago and we went into this bar, it's called Small Bar. The entire backdrop for the bar is VHS tape and there's little TVs with the PCR in them where you can choose which movie you want to watch. Not fun. Yeah, I, well, yeah.

[01:35:16:21 - 01:35:32:02]
 It's like, I think with Stranger Things and a lot of the pop culture stuff that's happening right now, there's a resurgence of things from like the 70s and 80s and D&D is part of that. But so is, you know, the medium that all that stuff was delivered on. Yep, the nostalgia.

[01:35:33:20 - 01:35:37:07]
 Like records were for-- Oh, I want a Betamax.

[01:35:39:06 - 01:35:45:09]
 I went the Nintendo VR thing from like the late 80s that I, like, what is it called?

[01:35:46:13 - 01:36:10:20]
 I-- It doesn't matter. I didn't know that it was a-- I didn't either, but I want one because it seems really dumb to have and it's because it's massive and it doesn't make any sense. The graphics are horrible. I'd never play it, but I could have the box on the wall and it would be really cool to have. Anyway, so looking at, getting back on track,

[01:36:12:10 - 01:36:18:08]
 looking at the state of tabletop gaming today, what are you most excited about in terms of where you think the hobby may be going?

[01:36:21:22 - 01:36:25:20]
 Do you wanna? Well, okay, yeah. So, and just, there's a couple of things.

[01:36:28:13 - 01:36:36:08]
 Small cons, there seem to be a lot of people doing small cons and bless their hearts. I mean, it's just a lot of work and that's really exciting.

[01:36:37:20 - 01:36:44:01]
 I think social media and the platform tabletop events, you know, this made something more possible.

[01:36:45:23 - 01:37:30:13]
 The resurgence, of course, Pathfinder did so well and then Dungeons and Dragons, Fifth Edition has done so well and now Shadow Dark has done so well. So there's some products that are coming out that people are really excited about. Yeah, and young gamers and first time, people that are discovering it and finding out it's not as small of a niche as it was before. It's gaining popularity. And it's because it's in, as you mentioned, Stranger Things and the movie that came out, she's on it. So, you know, I think that's exciting that people are, it's stretching and people are having a better understanding of what it is.

[01:37:31:16 - 01:37:39:16]
 You know, a lot of my time growing up, people were, you know, made here, Dungeons and Dragons are like, oh yeah, your dad made that video game, didn't he? Like, no, it's not a video game, but yeah.

[01:37:41:09 - 01:38:29:00]
 It inspired a lot of them though, when you start really evaluating it. Yeah, and looking at the play, you know, the level of in how things are played and they're leveled up and stuff. I think a lot of the mechanics even probably came from that role play mechanic. Yeah, my friend David Johnson, he talks about, I interview him about that and he goes deep into it. And so, yeah, I mean, it did, it inspired that. I mean, even some of the art you can go around Lake Geneva and you can see where some of the art that Braum does for like the Diablo games is inspired by some of the architecture that you see in Lake Geneva there. Oh, that's something I didn't even know. Yeah, it's like, if you go look up some of the concept art and then you go look at the arches and the buildings downtown,

[01:38:30:03 - 01:38:55:17]
 you go to like the cemeteries around the city and you see like the style of the headstones and the picketed art, the picketed fences within the stone. Yeah, you're like, holy crap, so much of our culture comes out of this tiny little town in Wisconsin. Yeah, and I grew up playing that game. That was the game that my friends played. So obviously I did too.

[01:38:56:24 - 01:39:18:23]
 And so now I'm meeting some of the people who, having that Braum, he did the art, having met you, your dad was responsible for the inspiration of people who created that art and put them in that place to give that opportunity, reality, you know? And that's amazing. And now here you are carrying that torch.

[01:39:20:19 - 01:40:10:17]
 And that's, I think that's beautiful. That's an amazing progression for story, you know? And so I think it's cool that you're honoring your dad. I think it's with egg con. I think it's awesome that you're continuing that legacy by continuing to make games and doing things that help bring people joy. And yeah, it's admirable, it is. Great, thank you. Yeah, and I think it's important that as one of the daughters that, you know, to be involved, because I think there's not enough women in gaming or it's newer for them. You know, when I was a kid, it was really not a lot of women that you would see as gamers, but I know as TSR was expanding and growing, there were a lot of women that came on board and that was kind of, that was a big deal.

[01:40:11:22 - 01:40:33:06]
 You know, a lot of the game creators and writers and people who had key positions, you know? Yeah, I mean, the original Greyhawk map. Yeah, fairly. Rose Estes is, you know, went from working, I believe she was like a customer support person at first and then ended up, you know, writing books and she's a bestselling author, you know? Yeah.

[01:40:35:10 - 01:40:36:11]
 (Laughs)

[01:40:37:13 - 01:40:53:13]
 Jean Wells did a lot of writing as well and trying to think of, well, of course, Margaret Weiss and Jean... My Father's Day present. Yes. She got me Andre Norton's... Quag Keep and Return to Quag Keep. Quag Keep, right?

[01:40:54:23 - 01:41:45:23]
 Yeah. Yeah, I found, I went on eBay and found a couple of... Her Father's Day, I got assigned by Andre Norton. Yeah. Yeah, it was really exciting. And I didn't even realize when I bought it, it has a whole introduction forward that was written by my dad in there. Yeah, I was reading it out loud and the girls were like, "Oh." And I look over and she's crying, it's great. And she's like, "I'm not crying, you know, it's not great that she's crying." But I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's this poignant thing written by Gary in there about how proud he was of Andre Norton writing this story." Yeah, I mean, and I hear that story over and over again from people who interact with your dad, right? That thanking him mostly is like, "Hey, you know, the most recent one is that someone told me that because they wanted to play D&D with their friends, they had to figure out how to read. They had to go get a dictionary, they had to look up what words meant.

[01:41:47:04 - 01:42:04:14]
 And they had to go through the painstaking process of getting themselves to the point where they could actually play the game and understand what was happening. You know, people who met, fell in love, have kids and built a family because of this game, you know?

[01:42:05:24 - 01:42:11:14]
 And it's not just this game, it's a lot of game, you know? It's very, very well could be your game

[01:42:12:18 - 01:42:22:24]
 in the not too distant future, you know what I mean? And so it's that, it could be Eric, it could be your game. Your game could bring someone together in chaos and matrimony.

[01:42:25:09 - 01:42:28:02]
 (Laughing) You know what I mean?

[01:42:29:10 - 01:42:32:12]
 I think that there's-- Under a fun couple. It would, right?

[01:42:33:14 - 01:42:47:17]
 Because it's that connectedness that these things create that make it easier to tolerate each other, essentially is what I'm getting to via a very long winded diatribe. But, you know, it's that. That's why I think it's so important to tell these stories.

[01:42:51:09 - 01:43:46:24]
 Yes, so yeah, that's one thing that I hadn't heard as many of these stories until my dad's passing in 2008. And people were just online and really telling a lot of these stories and then people coming up to myself and our whole family. Basically we were there, you know, as they would run into us at cons, whatever, you know? And we'd hear these really touching stories and it was fantastic, because you know, what do you say? I mean, he really definitely touched a lot of lives and for some people it's all fun and other people were like, you know, I didn't, you know, I was in a very bad place in life. I didn't have everything was dark in my world. And then this just opened up, you know, and changed how I looked at things and I made friends and friends that I played with in high school or college and they're still friends, you know? So those were the very touching things. And that's really when it kind of opened up,

[01:43:48:04 - 01:43:53:21]
 I think myself and my siblings opened our eyes as to just really the impact that Dungeons and Dragons had

[01:43:55:00 - 01:43:55:16]
 so many people.

[01:43:56:18 - 01:44:02:20]
 So proud of that. And that's, you know, one of the reasons we're doing what we do.

[01:44:03:23 - 01:44:13:06]
 Yeah. So are there any future projects, personally, professionally, you'd like to talk about Beyond the Egg Con and Dragon Derby and things that you're working on? Yes.

[01:44:14:10 - 01:44:23:22]
 A lot of our writing has had to take a backseat because we're doing a con, but you know, it's, but there's a lot of things that are-- End of board game.

[01:44:25:03 - 01:44:43:00]
 End of board game. So we will be going back to writing adventures and modules because much more manageable in what we can complete faster. So we have probably about three different, at least three different projects in various states of development.

[01:44:44:20 - 01:45:08:16]
 But depending on how things go here, I don't know how quickly those will be published. But when we are very close to getting them out, we will probably launch Kickstarter because that's usually the best way to get things rolling. And so hopefully we'll have one that we can launch again late this year. That's what I'm looking for to fourth quarter. At least one. Yeah.

[01:45:10:09 - 01:45:23:03]
 Eric, any other personal projects or anything like that that you're working on? Well, I haven't made any, I have the cookbook, but I haven't revisited that for a while. So I need to get back onto that one as well.

[01:45:25:05 - 01:45:27:12]
 I like the cookbook because we have to try things.

[01:45:28:14 - 01:45:29:24]
 (Laughing) Oh, this is great.

[01:45:31:18 - 01:45:35:09]
 Did you guys visit the stilleries recently? Is that where you went?

[01:45:36:09 - 01:45:41:18]
 Oh, yes. Yeah, we went up to-- Is that for the cookbook? (Laughing) Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that.

[01:45:43:07 - 01:45:45:12]
 (Laughing) That's a good idea though. Yes.

[01:45:46:13 - 01:46:04:11]
 Hey, I've used bourbon in a few recipes. I use wine in a lot of things. And rum, of course, for the rum cake that we make. But anyway, yeah, so we went up and we, I just thought, on our way up to Wisconsin Dells, it's about 20 minutes from the hotel we were staying at. It's a full stop at the distillery along the way. Yeah.

[01:46:05:11 - 01:46:10:14]
 Driftless Glen. Yes, it was a nice little place.

[01:46:11:15 - 01:46:11:20]
 Anyway.

[01:46:12:20 - 01:46:24:06]
 All right, well, I've already taken probably about 45 minutes of your time. So I'm gonna let you cut you loose and let you go. I appreciate all the time that you've given me, which has been very gracious of you.

[01:46:25:14 - 01:46:30:19]
 And thank you so much for coming on what I'm calling the Director's Dungeon. Director's Dungeon. Yes.

[01:46:31:20 - 01:46:43:11]
 All right. And so I think it's kind of nice. And thank you so much again for joining me and look forward to seeing you hopefully really soon. All right, great. So I'd like to show