37. Horns and Halos

Erikka and Jen discuss the halo effect vs the horn effect and how they can influence interviews. They discuss some of their experiences on both sides of the interview process and give a few tips on preparation. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello. Welcome to That Toxic Life. I'm Jen and I America. And this is a podcast where I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

This is a podcast where we discuss toxic things at work, how to avoid them, how to get into them, and how to neutralize them and stuff like that. There and so fruitly.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

So Miss Erica, have you exercised your First Amendment rights recently?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Unfortunately for everybody, yes, I have. Let's see. Probably the last time I exercised my first amendment rights was probably like an hour and a half ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Good. Okay. I I exercised my first amendment rights this weekend. What did you do? Uh went to a protest. Really? Oh yes. I was in a protest holding an American flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

What kind of protest was this? A No Kings?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, I was in No Kings.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

We had those here. Yes. No, it was great. But I had I had so for the most part, you know, people are pretty positive as they go past, you know, honking and like, yeah. Uh there's a couple people who were not so positive. There's one that I I there's one that I was on the corner, you know, group of people on a corner doing our thing. This guy was stopped at the red light. He's about to go, and he leans over and says, You're all gay.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

I'd be like, thank you, and have a gay day. You have the gayest day ever.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Of all the things you're all gay, like there's nothing else to yell at a bunch of progressives. Lee, you're all gay. Maybe a little. Like, what do you say? I don't know. Uh, I think you laugh and let him drive on. Anyway, I just felt like sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Uh, hey, person in Oregon, come up with better comebacks and insults, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Seriously. Uh, so that person was wearing a horn, and that is a segue to what we're talking about today. So, what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

We are talking about the halo effect versus the horn effect.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Absolutely. And this is something that, so I think the halo effect might be something that people are kind of uh a little bit familiar with, but I had never really heard of the horn effect, um, though I guess it makes sense, you know, if you think about it. Uh, so do you want to give us kind of a little breakdown of what it is, what they are?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yes. Well, I think the way that uh I'm imagining them for this conversation is based on interviewing. Uh the perception of the uh interviewing manager or HR person or whoever is interviewing you and how the halo and the horn effect may affect you.

unknown 3:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Um, the halo effect being when you in the first 30 seconds, uh the interviewer assesses what you're saying from the first 30 seconds, the things out of your mouth, the first questions they ask, are they positive or negative?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

And uh are you giving, you know, if they ask you why do you want to work for this company? First question. Yeah. So the whether you're giving the halo effect to the horn effect is gonna be determined by your initial response to the first question that you ask. And then from then on out, because our minds are uh our minds are programmed to basically to basically edit out shit we don't want to hear. So yeah, because our minds pretty much make up make up stories and we're judgy. You know, we're judgy by nature. We may not want to admit it, but that's what it is. So when you're interviewing somebody or you're being interviewed, the halo and the horn effect are definitely they they come into play because you make those assumptions about people so early in the situation. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

And I wanted to jump in and say, um that question, why do you want to work for this company? will probably be the first question that you are asked in an interview. So uh anybody out there listening, make sure you have an answer and make sure you know what company you're interviewing with so you can actually answer it correctly. Because they don't tend not to take it too well when you go, um, which company are you again?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Oh my gosh. I've I've definitely heard it. I've definitely like I oh, when I used to work for the bank, I interviewed someone who couldn't remember what bank they were at. They had to turn around and look at the wall. Yeah, that was that was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yeah, or even if have have a fallback. Oh, if you don't remember, at least have something practiced. That fall down. Sounds good enough.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I mean, you know, you young people, y'all, y'all love the the AI or the A who or the A1?

SPEAKER_01 6:02

The A1 as just joking as our secretary of education likes to call it. God, that anyway, uh education.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, use your a use your A1 education to um to to go on to the to the chat GPT mobile and figure out what you're gonna say if a company asks you why you want to work for them. Um yeah, things that people like to hear, you know. Uh, if you're a referral and it's a known referral, hey, you know, Jennifer has worked for this company for several years. You know, she and I are mutual acquaintances through a previous employer. She really enjoys the culture here. These are the positive things that she's told me, coupled with the positive things, blah, blah, blah, that I've read online as far as you all's reviews from former and current employees. I would be a part of the team. This is how I think I can help. And that's gonna get you the halo effect.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Oh, yes. It shows that you're interested. Yes. Uh, it shows that you have taken a look at the company, you're interested in the mission. Um, yeah, all good. And be if you are if you are a referral and that person is in good standing, then you know, a little bit of that goodness is gonna, you know, kind of shine over on you, too.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Absolutely. Please don't apply to job me referral of a bomb ass employee. Okay, that those horns are coming over too. That shit's silly right there. So I was gonna say, so that I mean, answering a question like that and answering it confidently, um, and barking at your employer. That those are horns right there.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

You cannot bark at your employer.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

But I dare you to try it.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

It sounds like something I would do, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I'm not sure if that would be a horn or a halo effect. That might just be a big old question mark. Well, who knows? Depends on who you're going to work for. If it's chewy, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Oh, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Anyway, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Um, so what is what are things that you could say that would get you the horn effect? Um, I'm just here to get a paycheck. Lord.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Well, you know, I need a job, and that always seems easy.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

Yes, or the pay. Well, I just need to make more money.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because company, even though we're all there to work for money, but companies seem to not like it when you bring up I want to work here for money.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yes, and that's and that's very funny too. Um, another thing that I hear is that, oh, because I don't like my manager.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

You do not bring up, you know, not likes. Um, even if even if it's like you left the company and it was awful and terrible, like as soon as you start saying negative things, those negatives, like that negativity, is gonna make those horns grow. Absolutely. Like, it could be absolutely true. Like the people at that other company could have made a voodoo doll of you and been poking it every day and then like set a fire in your office to chase you away or something, but don't say that at the interview.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Yes, and some people are really overly not not confident, but maybe I don't know. They just don't have I think sometimes it's just a lack of decorum and cooth, honestly. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Well, that's an interesting, you know, as far as the interview goes, right? Because you do want a certain amount of confidence, but what where is that line where it's you know, confidence and somebody's a bullshitter?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

So I um I I had a a situation earlier, nope, it was last week. It was last week because it's only Tuesday. Um last week, where I went to a place to find uh uh to look for employment for people in my situation, right? And when I went, the response that I got was wow, you're really confident. Okay, and I was like, what does that mean? Yes, yes, I am, and it was like and it was said like that like wow, you're really confident, like wow, you know, like that's a lot of confidence you got there. Okay, yeah, I'm super confident, like there's definitely no that, there's no doubt in that. And uh, yes, so it was said like five, four, five, five, five times. Interesting, yes, that I was very confident, and I don't know if maybe the expectation was that I wouldn't be because I'm blind, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:21

I had some interesting, I mean, ooh, it that is a little bit worried. I mean, me knowing you because you're not a bullshitter, right? Like being confident makes me think that there's maybe you don't want to work there.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Well, I will say uh sorry.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Good. I think that within any uh group of people, especially if the group is particularly marginalized, there is a certain amount of awkwardness that's gonna be between the people in that group. Um, within, and I don't speak on this a lot, but within the blind community, I have very limited experience. I don't know any other blind people. I um I've just started a tent, you know, trying to get out there and meet more people in my situation, follow more content creators in my situation, things like that, things like that. But I am not a negative person. And I think that there's a it's so funny, there's so many divisions within this life. Like there's black, there's white, you know, there's racial division, there's religious, you know, there's religious division, there's sex division, and there's also disability division because what I found is that because I am disabled, right? Um, but I'm still me. Yeah. I still speak the way that I speak. I still, I still dress, I still make sure I look as pretty and perfect as possible when I leave the house, just like I did before. And um, not that I look perfect, but I attempt to look as perfect as possible. Absolutely. But um, what I find is that people are like, How dare you? Oh, really? Yes, how dare you be that confident? How dare you? And it comes in the form of weird microaggressions. Like, damn, like how many other marginalized groups can I fucking fit in? But anyway, um seriously, like all of them. Check here, all d all of the above. But um, they're like, Well, how do you get dressed in the morning? I've been asked that by sided people, like who picks your clothes out? Mofo, I pick my clothes out. There's my clothes out. I'm amazing at picking out clothes, decorating houses and feeling textures and all kinds of good shit like that. But uh yeah, people are definitely, yeah, and this is coming from other visually impaired people, and it was like you're just so confident, like you you're just so like you're just putting it all out there. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Well, okay, a couple things. So one is with the side of people, right? I think anything that challenges people's, you know, conception of oh, you should be this way and you're not, and they tend not to, you know, people don't like it, right? Oh, well, you're you know, you you're you should be uh less capable, you know. You you should be having a hard time, you should be all of these expectations for what you should be, instead of you're just being you. Uh and there, so that's you know, how dare you be exceptional? How dare you be any of these things?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Not even exceptional. It's at this point, it's like I'm just trying to make it, you know what I'm saying? I'm not I I've had so many setbacks and so much, you know, hard times and depression, all that kind of stuff. I just haven't let it affect me. Well, maybe like it affects other people because exceptional.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That seems pretty exceptional, I gotta say.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Because the shit is what it is, like everybody's gonna f something hard. It's just how do you like how do you deal with that? How do you put up with it? How do you take it? And that's that's all I can do. Like, I have fucking kids, I got shit to do. Yeah, and they want to flu me for disability, and I like my neighborhood. I couldn't live here if I was on disability, so yeah, just gotta keep working.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Uh, for the uh other unsighted people, the blind people, how would what was what is the preferred term as a person learning?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

No, Jennifer, you know I don't fucking know that. Listen, I use the so uh okay, let me tell you because I'm figuring this out too, right? I don't know about blind people, so I'm out here trying to throw around little terms too shit I hear on social media. That's like a total fucking douche canoe, and I'm like, oh, I am unsighted.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

And what I say is people are like, you're what I'm not I am lacking in the visual department. Unsighted. I don't yeah, I don't know. That that's and so I'm like, and then email me eventually.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I'm like, fuck it, y'all blind. It's just like being black, like people are like, oh, I'm black. Oh, what kind of black are you? Like, I don't know the country kind. I don't know what to tell you, but and with being blind, it's like, oh, you're blind? Oh, we couldn't tell. Like, really, this stick and the fact that almost ran into you didn't tell. Okay, I've got a big stick. You couldn't tell. It's my large stick. You need the stick. You couldn't tell by my large stick. Okay, cool. Sure. Sure. I you don't look blind. Well, what do what do blind people look like? I don't know, but I don't know, but I like I think that there's like a serious stereotype out there. And the thing is that people don't understand, and it's completely off topic, that blindness is a spectrum. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like I went from one part of the spectrum to another side of the spectrum, but it is a spectrum. Um, and I I I I was sighted not that like I had sight not that long ago. Yeah, so I still look people look at people when I talk to them, I still look at my phone. It's based, it's habit. Um, there's still things that I do that I guess will would confuse people, right? Especially if I'm in Target, but it's just because I spent a lot of time to talk. You know that's to a purpose. Listen, if they ever move anything around now, but your girl knows the target, your girl knows the TJ X. Yep. Um, I I can navigate pretty well in those spaces and yeah, and even around work and stuff like that. It's just funny. It's like growing up in the Midwest, all over, because it's like, oh, you don't, you don't look, you know, you don't look like you're blind, is the same as you're so well spoken, the same stupid. You don't, oh you don't you're not black, you're clear. Oh my god, you're not disabled. You you have all the abilities, like it's right.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

It's fun. Luckily, I have a very sick sense of humor. So true.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

I think that probably helps.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Well, and one of the things I was gonna ask, like the you know, the uh the people you were interviewing with, you know, do you think that maybe some of that, you know, oh you're so confident, maybe that's a little bit of jealousy that they they wish they were confident too?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I do not use the word jealousy, I don't like the word jealous. I feel like it's overused and in weird situations. I think that um if you've been if you're in a position where you've been blind your whole life, then you may have grown up a certain way because of that. Okay. And especially if you're older, right? Because we grew up when people use the R word and you know, put you tried to put you in special classes and special schools and all that kind of stuff. So we're a lot more accepting these days. But uh, if you're older, I could see how my confidence may be a little like, oh, okay, okay. Uh she thinks she's all that, you know, that kind of thing. And then so the person one person was an older man, and the other person was a younger girl, and she was uh she was a lot younger, and she was like, and even she was like, Wow, you're so confident. And she's also completely blind since birth, and so I don't know. I I think that and even when I watch content creators and stuff like that, like that's a thing too. A lot of the content creators I see on TikTok, there's one chick named Molly Burke. Okay. Listen, I if I could be like Molly Burke, like I aspire to do the things that Molly Burke does. Like, she is out here traveling the world by herself, her and her little blind stick, baby. She's getting it. And I hope that all things are true, and I hope that that's really what she's doing because I do aspire. That that young lady, like, I want that level of independence. Um, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

If I want that level of independence now, in in my current state as a fully sighted person.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

It's just crazy though, because it's like a couple of um a couple of creators, but for the most part, the create the the content is kind of it's a little dark for me, you know. Okay, I'm uh I like dark humor, not darkness. I was gonna say blind content is a little dark, yeah. Ha! Hey yo, but yes, I I mean I think it is, and maybe there, you know, if any of our listeners have any suggestions on uh content creators that I could watch, because the only one I literally the only one I know is Molly Burke. And then there's one other girl on TikTok that comes up literally because I have double clicked, you know, I've clicked on things like likes so many times that more blind content comes up, but for the most part, like some of it's a little drab, and it's uh and I I can understand how it could be depressing. But again, especially if you're disabled and going tying back into the halo and the horn fit. Like if you're going into a situation and you're like me and you go in with the confidence, you can especially in person interviews, because you know I can pretty much play off being cited in a virtual interview in person. Um But it in person, you know, I think that I my strongest attribute is my confidence, my communication, and the fact that, you know, for the most part, like I've had some vocational therapy, like rehabilitative training, but I haven't even finished it yet. And I'm still as proficient as I am on a computer. Oh, yeah. You know, so and even and I learned all my technology that I have. I I try to make it work for me as much as possible. Apps, my meta glasses, the um, I even got this thing now to where I can write straight on paper again, which has been a thing for a long time. But yes, so you know, I'm trying to all the things, whatever, whatever they have available. Absolutely. But I do wish somebody would gift me a uh tablet that I can scribble on and it takes my notes and puts them into actual text. Oh, yeah, yeah. I even though I swear you should be able to do that like on an iPad or something. I don't know. I I'm actually surprised that you can't. I feel like that would be you can, and it's just I don't, and I feel like it was just introduced to me as a separate machine, so that's why I'm like, ooh, I want one of those. You know, I'm a big kid, yeah. So uh bringing it back, bringing it back if we could ever just stay on one fucking topic, nope, never, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Um, I think so we had kind of gotten into this with the the idea of um being confident versus being a bullshitter, right? Yes, um, and so I I don't think you're a bullshit, but for people that you yourself have interviewed, um what is your experience with that line of how like for you, how do you tell the difference between somebody who is confident, uh confident in their abilities, and you know, a uh a manipulator?

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I I think that it's just something that I can I can pretty much know bullshit from a mile away. So I remember um interviewing a young lady when I was at the bank. We interviewed me and um my manager actually interviewed a girl to join our team in the manager's assistance unit. So basically, someone would take escalated calls. Right now, this girl already worked for the company, but she was working in a different building. So I found it strange that she was able to leave her job, like leave to come over. I didn't know how that was how it worked exactly, but I did find it weird. Some of her questions, I mean some of her answers to questions also were a little off, but she seemed so perfect, like completely poised. I'm talking about the the pos everything about her, right? Great. So it made me wonder why is she attempting to take a lateral move?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

So what what's that about? Like, what are we doing here?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah, definitely. Okay. Did you ever did you end up hiring her?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yes, she was hired, and she and I are friends this day. She's the biggest bullshit I've ever met in my life. Love her down, she's so fucking bullshit. So, what was happening? The reason why the the interview seemed so off to me, and the reason it's like, she's here. How does she get time to leave? Because you know, we're you're pretty much in production, like you you have metrics that you have to meet, and things like that. So I'm like, how are you taking this time to come over here? She's coming from a different building, blah blah blah. She's taking a lateral and what it was, her manager had no idea she was gone. Oh no, yeah, she uh went into project time, she came over. She just she totally finessed the whole situation. And watching her right now, she's like an upper level executive at another bank. Oh, geez, right? Of course, full of shit. Yeah, she, I mean, like, I would never, yeah, like lies, like education's not right, not real, like all it's a whole sham.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

It so with that, um, you were kind of sensing that something wasn't right there. Did that give her a bit of the horn effect?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

And if it gave her the horn effect with me, and the halo effect was my manager. Okay. My manager loved her because her answers were like bam, bam, bam, you know, like the retort was there. But she, it was even in her posture that I was like, this woman is full of crap. Yeah, like her she was too straight. Her, like her back was too straight, her arms were folded perfectly. She never flinched, she never moved, she looked like a robot.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

So I was like, something's not right here.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Yeah. So almost that that trying too much. I think people can kind of, or you definitely can kind of tell when somebody's trying too hard too, you know, and and that comes off as you know, they're getting pushed the other way. Uh, their halo is getting replaced with some horns.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Absolutely. And she, but the thing is, is that of course, you know, my manager is my manager, so she chose that. And I was like, we'll see. Because I didn't even think she's gonna pass like the references, you know, like when she reaches out to her uh to her manager, I was like, Yeah, you know, we'll we'll see if she makes it past that part. And she did, she's on the team. She and I became really good friends. We are still cool, like I said, we're still cool to say. Actually, she's the reason I live in the apartments that I live in because she lived here first.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

So uh, so how did you get over that horn effect with her that to like allow her to be friends with you?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Uh because I kind of in you know I enjoy a complex personality. True, fair. So yeah. So she after getting to know her, I I feel like um just watching her, watching how she was in in general, is like she her whole life was such a strange facade. It was like everything she said was like, girl, what? But um I think you actually met her.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Oh, probably, possibly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

When I first start when we first started working together, um she and I went out a couple times, but uh yeah, she just I think she's a person who was going. I think that you have to be full of shit at to a certain degree to be successful. That's the reason why I'm not, right? Right, right. Um I I can be full of shit, like joke around, stuff like that, but I'm not to the I can't like lie in interviews and put weird shit on my resume and do all that stuff. I can't, that's not me. So um, but I but everybody I know who's super successful and who has climbed that you know corporate ladder, quote unquote. Even when it comes down to the job that you and I work together, the person that we watch get promoted to marketing completely fucking just absolutely like nothing about that was real.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I mean, so much of the job is you know, so much of getting ahead in business is networking. Yes is that, you know, who do you know? Who who can you like call in a favor with? Who can you uh, you know, how do you kind of leapfrog? Like who who can you crawl over? Who's gonna give you that leg up and then you can like crawl up, you know?

SPEAKER_00 29:55

And I've never I've never been good at that. The networking part is like cool, but I'm a person who even now I rely solely on the fact that people know the quality of my work. It's not because I've I know anybody or I've made connections, like I know people's names and they know me, and it's cool, you know, but I've just never been uh I say this all the time, even when it comes to dating. I wish that I was the type of chick who could like be like, oh, you have to pay my bills. All that I wish, I wish I'd never been that kind of woman.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Wish and twice in the big two six guys. What I wish I would have done more is be a better hoe.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

Seriously, because I know bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Like I watch these girls, and even now the economy's bad and everything else, and these women still are like, oh, you know, like just watchmen do things for them. And I that's not a I don't possess like a couple of homeboys who are jerk, like honestly, like my brothers and my ex, like my kids' father, my children's father, who's like the my bestie, and that's all I got. I don't have any men fying over me trying to pay bills, so I wish I would be a better home.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

So going back to uh interviews and and horns and halos and and such, so suppose you so you're you're interviewing someone, how do you make sure that you are hiring somebody who you think will actually be a good fit, then ensure that you aren't being taken in by that halo effect?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Um, I am a firm believer that when you interview people, especially in especially like these days, the most of the resumes are written by AI. Um, people are not as honest, and I'm not saying everybody, I know this doesn't qualify for everybody, but I go into every situation with the expectation that I'm being lied to. Right. I've been doing that for years though. Because I, yeah, just watching people, you know, the performative act that is an interview.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

I go into every I go to every situation believing that I'm being lied to. The question is, is that I have to ask myself, first of all, how well can you lie? Are you are you it could I reasonably believe this lie if I wasn't me? That's one. Two, um, am I going to hire you to release you to have to work with someone else? If I can't, if I don't think I could deal with you, I wouldn't send you off to Jennifer to be on her team so that she has to deal with you. Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

So will you be a good fit for the team? Does your personality seem like it would mesh? Um, you never know who you're hiring, just like you never know who you're dating, like you never know who you're friends with. Right. So you you are taking a chance every time you hire somebody. Um, it's does the resume and the storyline match up? Are you are you smart enough to keep up with your lies? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

So, one of the things that I found when interviewing that seems to be super helpful is uh asking like situational questions. Um, so you can kind of get more of a feel for the person and how they think and how they act. Um, though I guess sometimes that can be, I don't know, annoying. I don't know. What's your take?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

I like situational questions because I like organization. I I am a huge fan of the star method.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yes, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yeah, I don't even know if people still really use that, but I like it just because it keeps the interview kind of clean. Um, you know, what was the situation? How did you work through it? What was the outcome?

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

And I try to I also answer questions in interviews when I interview, I answer questions like that because as we know on this podcast, I'm a rambler.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

So that is, I mean, I think a most places that I've been at and done like interviews and such, um, they're trying to most places are kind of trying to standardize their interviews a bit more using those situational questions. Um, like when I was at Starbucks and we were interviewing people, like it was all uh situational. And also you're asking like standardized across the different applicants as well. So you have like a um a bit of a measuring guide for, you know, this person asked it in this way. Um, they hit these specific things that we were looking for in their answer, you know, you have a bit more of like a quantitative uh way of judging a person's answer versus like, you know, that qualitative um, you know, kind of feeling thing about people.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yes, absolutely. I mean, and uh you you use the SAT words quantitative and qualitative. Yes, yes. Yeah, meaning you just like keep it simple. And that's and I just think that like the situational questions are very helpful with just organizing, like I said, and like we just said, uh taking kind of some of the emotion out of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Yes, definitely. And I think as much as as much as you can to uh help yourself in interviews by by thinking logically, rationally, and uh objectively almost about those people, uh, kind of avoids that horns and halos effect where you know if you just look at oh, this person's oh, they're so cute and you know, they they're so friendly and happy when they answer the questions, you know, you've got that total halo effect, or well, they were a little monotone, so horns, right? And you're actually looking at the substance of what they're saying. You know what else is rough?

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Hmm, the the interview trillioner. Uh yeah, okay, yeah, whenever you're if I'm on an interview, I don't like to be chilly through the interview. I do not trick them through an interview as well. So when I give a good answer, I don't want to hear the person interviewing me say, Oh, that's a great answer. No, right, because people have false expectations. Now I'm getting my hopes up.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Yeah, right. As much as possible, you know. Oh, yeah. I mean, I try to be positive in interview situations so that way the per because you know, people going into interviews are going to be nervous.

unknown 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

So as much as I can to like, hey, you know, no need to be nervous right now. It's okay, we're just gonna talk. Um, the more you can like kind of put that person at ease. But, you know, yeah, there's no need to, oh, you're doing so great right now.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yes. And I I mean, I hear that I've definitely been in like panel interviews where there's there's a cheerleader on the panel. Um, I think that it just I there's nothing wrong with being positive, but I think that can be done through, you know, your body language and maybe facial expressions uh without overdoing it.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Um, and and that is something, you know, it that is actually something I think could be kind of interesting. Uh be prepared for a bit of a ramble, and we'll see if it makes sense when I get at the end. All right. Here we go. When we're going into those interview situations, right, and we're talking thinking about horns and halo's effects. Um, to a certain extent, we may need to think about how we ourselves are being portrayed, right? Or how they are thinking about us and whether, you know, there's a bit of a reactivity or a reaction going on there, right? Maybe that horn or halo is them. We've got a horn, you know, and so they're reacting. And so that's something that we need to adjust for in those situations.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I thought you said it was a ramble.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

That completely made sense. I was I was a little nervous getting getting out the door on that one because it was onwards we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Congratulations.

unknown 38:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

They're still on topic. Um no, I yes, I I absolutely see what you're saying. Um, and actually, I'm not gonna lie, I am sheesh. Whenever I interview, I am not worried about what their perception of me is. That's so now that you've said that, that is something that I'll be reconsidering, right? I might be an asshole. I'm sorry. Uh, but you know, I I do go into interviews like, hey, you're here to show me what you can do. And I, you know, I'm not an unkind person, so the only thing I have to dial back with myself is like making jokes and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

Um, but I mean I think you know, making jokes tends, I guess, depending on the nature of the joke, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Uh, I think usually laughter will set someone on ease more often, you know, than without I just tell people, hey, you know, don't be nervous. And I sometimes, uh, especially when I'm interviewing like an entry-level positions, kind of like what I do now, I'll be like, uh, you know, just are you are you because sometimes like the interview starts and you can just tell out the gate this person's just all nerves. Oh, yeah, definitely. And in that case, I'll be like, hey, okay, hold on. You seem nervous, right? You don't have to be nervous, we're just having a conversation. You need a second, and then they'll tell you yes or no, and then you're like, let's start over.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

And then and then it's more of a conversation, like, okay, you know, my name is Eric. I've been with the company for this long. This is my position, this is what I do. Yeah, why tell me why you're here. And it's a lot, I think it's a lot more inviting.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Um, yeah, and I think something to to keep in mind for the interviewer, uh, you know, when listening, you know, having that kind of open body posture, you know, you're not sitting there look staring at them with your arms crossed, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Uh, you know, if I went to an interview and somebody had their arms crossed, I think I would lose it. I would we won't want to be interviewing that day. That is, I don't like that. I think I think I've even told you, even when we work together, like if I walk in your office and your arms are crossed while I'm talking to you, I'm gonna walk back out and I'm gonna walk back in. We're gonna switch all this up right now because what are we doing? But you did not make that.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

I think I was uh I was standing somewhere today and I was listening to people talk. Uh, and that was something that you know I had to like kind of keep. And like I was in the back of the room, nobody could really see me, but that was something that I was like, you know, I need to be mindful of this, is that I naturally am going to sit here with my arms crossed, it's comfortable, right? Yes. But that gives a closed-off perception of me that I am either upset or you know, don't want to be here. I'm not engaged, you know, all of those things that you don't necessarily mean, but that's gonna be the perception that other people see. Um, so yeah, so like, okay, what else can I do with my hands?

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Luckily for me, I have a huge chest and short arms. So personally possible for me to comfortably uh do that. But I do uh I put my hands, I am a well, I think you know I'm a pockets girly.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, I'll do that, or I'll do the uh there's a loose, like it's not the full arms cross, it's kind of a you know, palm on inner elbow kind of, yeah. I'm doing it right now, yeah, yeah. Where it's like, okay, I'm doing this. This is a bit more of I'm doing this because my arms are comfortable, but not because I am disengaged. That is at least what I'm hoping I'm projecting.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

When you're doing the half cross thing, I also think because you have this is funny. It's funny that I can no longer see because these are things I used to look at with people. Uh fully crossing your arms is crazy work. Like, what are you doing? But it's true, you gotta really get in there, you gotta get it.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Every hand's gotta sneak up and do stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Exactly. But if you are leaning again, if we're having a conversation and you're leaning against a door frame, uh-huh, and you put your hand and you cross your hands in the half cross or even the full cross, my thought is that you that is uh in an attempt to help you keep your balance against the door frame. I don't think anything of that. I can see that. If I walk into your office and you're sitting in your chair, yeah, and you lean back and cross your arm, that's telling me you don't want to be bothered with me right now.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Yeah, that's definitely like a closed off kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

If you're interviewing somebody and you're like, oh yeah, tell me about yourself, and you kick, you know, you kick back in your chair and you fold your arms, that's gonna make me feel some type of way.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

But there is kind of a difference with if you lean forward and you have your arms kind of crossed on the table, right? That's more of an interested.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah, that's an engaging, interested kind of thing. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's funny. Body language is funny though. It's um it yeah, I I don't also if you come into if I come into your office and you I'm speaking to you and you have your head in your computer.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Yeah. Hey man, that's that's not that's definitely. One where that's another one that I know that I have to work on because people will come and talk to me, and I have to like you know, emails are coming through or things are happening, and like it is kind of natural to like look over, and like looking over is one thing, but like if you're clicking around when somebody's talking to you, that's a problem. That I think that's a problem, or like, unless, and even you know, people will come in and they'll ask for something, and I want anytime it's something that I have to get in my computer that is like on the computer, I make sure to tell them, oh, I'm looking at it right now, so that way they know I'm still engaged with your conversation. I'm looking for this thing that we're discussing. So, you know, that little extra bit of communication to make sure that people know that I'm I'm still there and paying attention.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

And that that's the reason why I also like to when I interview people, I like to be in a neutral space, like a conference room or somewhere where there's no computer. And definitely, you know, it's awkward for me to look at my phone. I just have to you just have to be there and exist, you know. Yes, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Yeah, no distractions, nothing. Uh yeah, no computer there, no distract, no, no people like coming up to talk to you either, I think, or like other things happening. You two can just have a conversation, you're not getting phone calls or emails that you have to respond to. Because then that's super awkward for the person who's just sitting there going, uh yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

And I and I've definitely been in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

I've been on an interview where I'm like, okay, what are we doing here? Like at one point, like the interview's going so crazy, and people are walking up to the point where I'm like, yo, this is my time to shine. Is there anything I can help you with? Like, because you obviously have a lot going on right now.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Put me in, coach. There you go. But uh, but yeah, I think that uh body language is very important. Like I said, I am a pockets person. I am the pockets. My my son says that I'm aura farming. That's some new aura farming. He's like, you always have your you know he's like, you always have your shades on and your hands in your pockets. He's like, why are you always aura farming? I'm trying to look cool. That's what I mean. Look it up. Hold the way, what is aura farming?

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I'm looking it up right now. Give me a moment. Aura farming. I'm scared. Somebody somebody yelled at us 6'7 uh when I was out. Okay, just some kids in a car going past, like Wade even yelled 6'7 at us. These days, all right. Here we go. Oh dear lord, I'm gonna be angry about this, aren't I? I'm that person now. Aura farming is a TikTok-driven social media phenomenon where individuals intentionally perform actions to gain aura points, a measure of coolness, mystique, or charm. Dear Lord.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yes, so my kids say that when I because I I do this thing. I so first of all, pro tip. I'm not trying to look cool. I have my knee hurts, so I'm leaning, I cross my legs when I stand up straight. So I have one foot, you know, I do the one foot crossed over the other foot on the toe.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

And I put my hands in my pockets, and my blind stick is, you know, is um looped in inside of my arm, but my hands are in my pockets. And Ashley said, You're just trying to look cool. And yes, I and I don't have on shades, I have on metal glasses. Right. Well, like you're overforming. I was like, no, I'm just naturally this cool, like I can't help it. It's true.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Well, so actually, this is interesting. And this is the AI Google interview, just for people to know. So, you know, take it or leave it. But uh, it's a measure of coolness, mystique, or charm involves curating a polished, impressive image to boost social status, often by making everyday acts look effortless, effortless, yes, though, overdoing it is often considered cringe, goes a little bit into our halo or horn effect, right? So basically, you're trying to create that halo effect of you know, creating that aura of I'm cool.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Well, though it's funny, I've I've always the ever since my knee's been bad, I'm always bad. I just didn't have the blind stick in the glasses, but uh ever since ever since my knees started hurting, um it's just the way I it's the way I naturally stand. Um a lot of people say that the way I stand is more masculine, yeah. And because I I don't know, like yeah, seeing my legs crossed and stuff like that's insane.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yeah, but that's a whole other thing too, you know. What is what does that because I've I have been told that you know, also that I have am more masculine in ways, but yes, to that I say I am more me, so and I am a woman, so what does that mean? Right, gender is just a construct.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

That's a whole other conversation. How many times we've been told that we're too masculine? I know, right? How can we be too masculine if we're women? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

And how many times we discuss maybe it's silly to call things to try to separate things on a binary. Oh, there you go. That's deep.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

That's deep, sister. It's all shade the gray, man. Yeah, I but uh yes, well, I have aura farmed um for years, and it's basically based on a old dance injury. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Got it. Okay I mean cool. It's sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

So when you end a and I'll oh I'm gonna wrap this up. I have something interesting to point out with this. Okay. Um I'm ready. When you're ending an interview, yes, is there anything that you like to say at the end of an interview when you are interviewing or if you're the interviewer?

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Oh well, I mean, so for being the interviewer, um probably always end it with the do you have any questions for me, right? That's seems to be a pretty normal way to end things. Um and for those of you listening, uh, it is okay to have questions. We like having questions. Um, depending on what the question is, right? If it's why am I here and what do you do? It's maybe not a good question. Um, but you know, having questions shows that you're interested. You're interested in the position, you're interested in, you know, next steps or or whatever, right? Um for being interviewed, um, one of the questions I like to ask is like, you know, what are the what would you say are the biggest like trouble spots that this position might face? Like, you know, what are the the challenges? Well yeah, what are like the what would you say are the challenges for this for this position? Um and you know, so that way I can kind of get a feel for, and sometimes that's you know, they'll they'll really open up and be like, you know, that's like here, let me lay it out for you. These are the things that we're really noticing. This is really what we want to work on. And you do kind of start getting like a little bit of a um behind the scenes, you know, a little bit more of an in-depth discussion about the position. Um, and then other times I've had people go, so you know, it's kind of a take it or leave it. Um, it's also, you know, okay, what are next steps? You know, showing that you're interested in like, you know, what do we where do we go from here? Um where you're having that second date conversation. Uh uh, and then, you know, when leaving, you know, if if I'm the inter, if I am the interviewer, I'm getting confused with interviewer, interviewee. Um, if I am asking the questions, uh, you know, stand up. Oh, you know, thank you so much for coming in, handshake. Uh, and then even if I know I'm going to hire this person, I never say I'm going to hire you. It's always a, you know, you'll be hearing from us soon, or you should hear from us. You know, you'll hear one way or the other on this day, by this day, something like that. Yeah. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Uh, do you remember what I asked you at the end of our interview when you interviewed me?

SPEAKER_01 53:28

You like to ask, yes. You like to ask, is uh, how did I do?

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Yep. Yeah. And that's that's an interesting one. Because yeah, you know, there's never like people are never never asked that. And it does kind of, I think that one took me by surprise. I think that one usually will take people by surprise. Uh yes, I like to that.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Yeah, so like, okay, so thank you for taking the time to interview me. I really appreciate it. Just for you know, my own development and for my, you know, whatever I choose to do going forward, how do you feel like this interview went?

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

How do you feel? Like, what do you think that some of my that's some things that I can improve on, you know?

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a good, definitely a good question. And I would say be for for people listening, uh, I guess be prepared for brutal honesty if you don't want it. Have you ever had brutal honesty when when you've asked that question? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

This lady told me she told me that I was demonstrative. And so at this, listen, y'all. Sometimes I do not choose to take the high road, okay? After because it was already kind of like we the interview wasn't great, it was a little rocky. Right. So when I ask you and I feel like you are attempting to push my buttons, well, now we can rumble. Um, I'm demonstrative. I said, explain. I said, oh, can you please can you please give me an example of exactly how? Right. And she says, you use your hands a lot when you talk. And I said, I don't. Because I don't. And the reason I know that I don't is because I am horribly ashamed of the fact that I picket my nails.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Uh yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

Even when my nails are done, my cuticles are usually pretty haggard. And um, so I don't like to necessarily show off my anxiety that held all in my little hands. So I don't, nope, I definitely don't use my hands when I talk because I'm embarrassed of them. So no, I didn't do that.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Oh, I mean, that might be, you know, you you took her off guard and she just needed to say something. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

That's nope. Mm-mm, lady. Now we're gonna go down through there.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

You better explain this because I know that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

If you want to pull your big you want to pull your big words out. Sound so demonstrative, you can probably say that I am confrontational. Not like but I but yes, I did, I did ask her to explain. She said that I used my hands a lot, and that um uh what did she say? I forgot how she that was several years ago, but uh, but you know what? I knew I wasn't gonna get the job. I also did not want to work for her. She was I felt like she was kind of unkind, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:44

But might as well just torpedo it.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

There you go. Hey, burn it to hell. Burn it down. I burn bridges because I can swim. And I can kill dragons and alligators.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

So my one of my crazy ex-boyfriends, one of his favorite things, his philosophy teacher told him was let your burning bridges guide your way. And that's hilarious. Man, did he live with by that code?

SPEAKER_00 57:12

My children's father lives by that code. My children, me and my children's father used to work together. And um one time somebody, because I was uh when we were in the same department, I was a higher, like a higher rank than him. And one of our uh operations managers was like, man, he's they said one thing about insert name here. They were like, he's not gonna burn a bridge, he's like, he's gonna torch the city. He's like guy, so yeah, that's my my kid's father definitely lives about that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

You know, I'm thinking about that saying now though, and it's kind of stupid. Like, how does that actually work, right? So you're standing in a spot, you've crossed a bridge, you've got a bridge, you light the bridge on fire, right? Okay, so there's you've got some light over there, so you've got to cross another bridge, but there's no fire on that bridge, so it's gonna be dark on the other side. We have to set it on fire on the way across, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

You have to set it on fire on the way across, but then you're gonna burn yourself, or you get your Mario Brothers on. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

I'm just saying it's the stupid saying. Like, how does it work? You've got even it's not actually lighting your way because it's not in front of you. You've got to burn the bridges you've already been across, so it's lighting what's behind you. I'm gonna crash things. What the heck? Are you trying to start at your house? I'll burning it down, and here we go. On that note, maybe before I destroy more things around here.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Oh, the the thing I wanted to point out is that even though we tend to get off topic, um, and we have we definitely have tangents, we conducted this episode in the way that an interview would be conducted. Absolutely, right? We started off, you know, we had an introduction, we had a middle, we had an ending, we had a lot of caveats, but it's okay. And yes, indeed. We managed to to put it all back together at the end. Yes, and we're gonna we're gonna start calling our random outbursts charming.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

I yes, it's what makes us charming. It is what makes us charming, I think so. There you go. So, Erica, if they would like to check out our website, where should our most delightful listeners go to? That toxiclife.com. Absolutely. And if they would like to send us an email about tips on how to make your dog stop barking, where should they send those tips? That toxiclife at gmail.com. Absolutely. And do you have any last uh thoughts? I was about to say last words, and it's always bad. Each time I have to stop myself. Do you have any last words?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

Uh last thoughts are go into your interviews, whether you're the interviewer or the interviewed E, with as much confidence as possible. Be as poised and relatable as you can on both fronts, and remember that um have it together. Do some research on the company, do some research on the position. The job market is crazy out here. Don't go into your job interviews blind, figuratively.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Figuratively, literally, I think you don't have a choice. Yeah, you know, it is what it is. And don't be an asshole. Don't be an asshole.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

Goodbye, y'all.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:02

Bye.