The Real Reason Fear Keeps Winning (And How to Break It)

Ever wondered if buying a business could be your shortcut to real financial freedom—or just a fast track to regret? We sit down with a seasoned business broker who's owned parts of 10 companies and sold countless more, pulling back the curtain on why acquisition entrepreneurship isn't the hype it's cracked up to be, but can still build lasting wealth if you're wired for it. He shares the raw truth from his front-row seat: the heartaches of ownership, the red flags in deals, and how focusing on people over spreadsheets separates winners from those who flame out.

We unpack the myths peddled by influencers like Cody Sanchez, from spotting stable businesses (hint: look for 10+ years of operation and low employee turnover) to navigating the wild west of brokerage. It's not about chasing shiny objects—it's about burning your ships, aligning with the right partners, and killing fear before it kills your dreams. This conversation arms you with the clarity to decide if buying beats starting from scratch, and how to lead with purpose in a world that rewards grit over glamour.

📌 Key Topics:

✅ Why Buy a Business? Proven systems and cash flow beat starting from zero, but only for true entrepreneurs—test the waters first to avoid personal guarantees and burnout.

✅ Red Flags in Targets: Aim for 10-15+ year-old operations with 5-7 year employee tenure; high turnover signals absent owners or control freaks.

✅ People Over Profits: The real magic happens by prioritizing team culture—pay well, offer ownership stakes, and create family vibes to slash churn and boost revenue.

✅ Brokerage Realities: 77% of sub-$2M EBITDA businesses never sell; approach brokers humbly with a transition plan, past risks, and spousal buy-in to stand out.

✅ Overcoming Fear: Hear stories of COVID near-misses and turnarounds—nimble small businesses survive by transparency, creativity, and burning bridges to your old life.

✅ Private Equity vs. Family Offices: PE brings systems but intense due diligence; family offices move fast but are picky—vet them like they vet you.

✅ Succession and Legacy: Raise gritty kids by tying rewards to perseverance; build a "generosity machine" where business transforms lives, not just bank accounts.

✅ Retirement Shift: From high-risk builds to dividend streams—flexibility wins, but always chase the "yes" in your soul.

What's one fear holding you back from your next bold move— and how will you kill it today?

00:00 Introduction to Podcasting and Financial Freedom

01:03 The Value of Buying a Business

02:56 Evaluating Business Longevity and Stability

05:20 The Importance of People in Business

09:31 Creating a Positive Work Environment

11:25 Navigating Business Transactions

19:41 The Role of a Business Broker

22:19 Building Trust in Business Deals

27:26 Approaching Business Brokers as a New Buyer

30:18 Understanding the Broker's Perspective

33:05 The Importance of Personality in Business Transactions

36:51 Navigating Risk and Uncertainty in Entrepreneurship

40:10 The Role of Mindset in Business Acquisition

45:58 The Significance of Partnership and Support

49:09 Evaluating Business Potential and People

52:28 The Balance of Systems and Flexibility in Business

57:30 The Future of CFO Roles in the Age of AI

01:00:40 The Role of Security in Entrepreneurship

01:03:08 Learning Through Adversity

01:06:11 Transforming Lives Through Business

01:09:00 Understanding Private Equity and Fam

Transcript

Ryan Miller (00:05)

It's more conversational and it's just more, I do have some microphones and I could hook them up, I don't know. like constantly. Yeah, you're constantly moving it. We just started on Friday, a podcast we recorded our first episode. We don't know what it's going to be called even. So we're going to get all that. I was just meeting with my assistant slash analyst and we were just talking through all that. So we'll see where it goes. That's cool. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ I'll start off some kind of question about.

Yeah, I'll make it up as I as I go in. We think like sitting like this. You good? You're good. I'll move. I'll move around a little too. It's just my personality. But stay on this side of the cameras as long as you walk around. Oh no, I'll just like I'm going to go stand over there. You guys be hilarious. We'll get a drone. Yeah. Paul, appreciate you coming in, stopping in. Yeah, thanks for having me. If someone was trying to build financial freedom, why is buying a business?

one of the best things to do starting out? That's a great question. ⁓ Or do you think buying a business? me rephrase that. Yeah, I think for the right person it is. I think one of the things that's going on right now is you have, which there's some great stuff, Cody Sanchez is of the world and all these different people saying, buy a business, buy a business. I bought seven businesses and I don't say that bragging. I've owned I think parts of 10 at this point. ⁓

every one of them comes with a level of heartache and heartache that is extremely tough. So I think if you really feel like you can, if you really feel like you're entrepreneurial, I'd say try it out on some different level before maybe buying a business and tying, you you're have personal guarantees generally. I mean, it's gonna be, you're gonna be working with a bank and you're gonna put everything on the line. Do I think it's one of the greatest ways to build wealth?

Absolutely, you're getting you're buying a proven proven I mean generally if you buy it the right way a proven system proven concept somebody who's done it for hopefully, you know, I mean we can talk about how long they should have owned it but you know ten plus years and They've gone through really those first several years of hardcore ownership What do you think is the minimum number of years someone should have a business before? You should consider buying it

⁓ it's tough because there are people that go in and they start things and they're amazing at marketing, putting the systems in place, but they want to do that for two years, three years. And if it's a good enough concept and they have the right team, and you've got to make sure the team is involved. If the owner's like, don't want you meeting my team, I'd say be very careful. If the owner is open and they're like, hey, this is what I do, I kind of bring people in, I have an integrator, here's how I build, and they're just a marketing machine.

I think you can look at stuff two to three years old. Now, the bank may not finance it as well, but there's some deals in that because there's generally some owner financing. There's other things that can come along with that. If you're just looking at, I want a stable business that I don't want to have to try to reinvent the wheel and I'm trying to buy cash flow, I would say really looking at things at least 10 plus years older. Ideally, a lot of the guys I talked to and...

that would be, they would say, you know, look at stuff. A lot of them have minimum buy boxes where it has to be 15 plus years or older. And then their average 10 year time, you see different buy boxes. I see people send me over all this stuff, but you know, I'd say the average tenure of an employee, seven years, five, at least five, ⁓ those can be, those are where you know, okay, these people, like they've actually built a culture. Because the biggest thing, if you see a lot of turnover, one of the things that can generally mean is A, the owner is completely not present.

they're a really, they're kind of a jerk or ⁓ they just, or the owner just does a lot by himself. And that's the, they're freakishly, and I say it's freakishly talented. Cause I've met those people where it's like, I would never want to buy this business. Cause that owner is just really good at what they do, but they work 80 hours a week. They're never off. And like that's a business I don't want. Yeah, I forgot what it's called, but there's a concept. say business has been around for 10 years. There's a,

50 % likely or there's a high likelihood that it'll be around for at least another five. Yep. And so if it's been around 10 years, it cuts it in half. it's a, I can't remember what it's called. But yeah, I know what you're talking about. And I think it's like it builds like that as you go 10, 15, 20. So it's like, cuts it in half. So 20 years is 10 years. And, then so longer, longer business has been around the likelihood of it being around half, half of that life is damn near a hundred percent. Exactly. And you're going to see,

And if they're a good owner, they're gonna talk to you about what they've been through. And hopefully that's saving you a lot of those headaches of going through that. And that's the thing where, like I said, good owners will do that. If they're just trying to sell it and trying to get top dollar, I always, you know, I struggle even working with clients like that. And not that we don't wanna get them top dollar. We always say we want the right partnership. So you wanna find the right person who can carry on your legacy. Owners that don't really care about that, ⁓ those are, you you gotta be careful.

Those are things I'd look for. It's like, I'm just trying to get as much money. Well, I'm getting several offers in and bids and I'll see kind of what comes in. It's like, not saying like that's not wrong. I'm not saying that's wrong for some or maybe for some businesses at a certain scale, but I think who you do business with is really important. Even who's buying your business is really important. So I think one of the things I started out in real estate and now getting into the business buying stuff, I was much more nervous buying my first business than I was buying my first rental property.

because I always felt like I had the fallback on this property, it's gonna be pretty hard to get it to zero. This business, it's very possible. And my wife and I have been really focusing on operations and human capital. And so what would you say is the most important aspect of keeping a business afloat and at least covering your nut? Focus on the people. I mean, I think you start with the people and then everything else trickles in. I mean, yes, operational efficiencies. I mean, are there businesses I see

I mean, it's funny, I'm probably on a weekly basis where I'm like, my gosh, they should be doubling what they're doing. But once again, I realize that owner might be tapped to their capabilities. So I would say, and a lot of times those owners are exhausted. So it's like, if you can work with them where they're like, I wanna really focus on, we know we need to develop people, well then start developing people. ⁓ Owners are owners of the business if they've been doing it long time, can be your greatest guide, because they will generally know the stuff they should have done.

they didn't wanna do it or they got comfortable or whatever it is. So I think that question, I think of really focusing on the people when you start out and then beyond that it's like, you kinda, it's like beyond that it's like then you gotta pick the systems you wanna put in place. And it depends on where the business is at too because there are people like I've been in turnarounds, I've seen how it works. I mean I've led turnarounds so it's like I know when it's like man, when things are hitting the fan, you gotta move at a pace that's just way different.

⁓ But yeah, generally I'd say when you start focusing on the people, that's where I think a lot of magic happens in that. is there, is employee churn or employee turnover, is that just a nature of the business or is there a certain point where you get so good at taking care of people that you just create lifers everywhere you look? I have seen, so it's funny, I've seen a lot of businesses, we'll say in Nebraska area, and we've sold stuff in Kansas, we have stuff up in the Northwest right now.

So we can work nationally. But it's funny when I look at Omaha, it's like I've got to see several of the people that want to either that want to be entrepreneur through acquisition or that are trying to build kind of a portfolio of businesses. And I can say, I think there's two people I've seen do it successful. And one of the things that they both, they all focus on is they give the employees, they pay them better.

and then they give an opportunity for ownership. Funny part is those people also charge the most and they're doing way more revenue than everybody else. So it's a really, it's an interesting correlation. They provide better service, their employees are happier, their employees are, like I said, taken care of better, and then also their main employees, they're giving them a decent chunk of ownership. mean, so they're giving up a lot of upside, but it's like, well, if your business is doing, let's say it was doing a million EBIT a year,

and you can pop it to you start paying everybody better, start focusing on marketing, and all of a sudden it's doing two million a year and you're giving up half of that, or not half, let's say, let's say, I don't know, three or two, I'm trying to think, 25 % of that. You're still making one and a half million dollars. So it's like that's one of those where it's hard for people I think sometimes to wrap their mind around that at the beginning.

like oh, I'm gonna start paying people better, but I think that's where I've seen the biggest differences. When people pay people better and they really make them feel, not that money's everything, but also creating that like hey, we're gonna be more flexible. Creating that family environment, that's what keeps people around. And I think one of the biggest things I've seen where people have bought businesses and they've struggled or they've called us, most of the people, it's like we've been blessed, most of the people we work with that have bought businesses, it's gone pretty well.

And that doesn't mean there's one that like hidden economy, like where the economy just went really, it was really tough ⁓ and in that business, but they're fine. They made it out. then he said, and I asked him, said, you have bought this a year, knowing all you know now, a year and a half ago, would you have still done this? He goes, in a second. And this was someone who was making well over 300,000 in a corporate world, but it's like that freedom that he has, owning your own business, building it.

I mean, it's like, it's been his, it's his dream. And when you get a taste of that and you have to fight through that, it does something to you. Like, having to persevere through those hard times, I think it just does something to people. But he'll be successful because he knew it from the beginning. It's like, he burnt his ships. You know, it's like when you sign up your life on SBA notes, all that stuff, that's when I like to see, that's when I just generally feel like people are gonna be successful. Like, yes, there's some economy things you can't always predict.

But it's like, when you own that business, you start figuring out ways to really make it through. That's what I've seen. At least that's what I've seen. So it's hard, it's funny, that's about real estate and business. I think it's pretty tough if you buy the right business to fail. Now you can do stupid things to make it fail. Overspending, changing everything day one that the original owners were doing. Because you might think, oh, well this is gonna be better. Well if you have 20 employees and they're all used to that, that can really cause a lot of ripples. So those are things I always say, it's like,

take change slow and kind of move into, and just get to know the people first. First 90 days, it's like, I would not do too many things if I bought a business. I'd kind of keep it where it's at, and then I would really just see where the people are at. Because there are people that a lot of these owners, they might have kept on, that shouldn't be there. And those people don't want to be there either, but they just felt a loyalty like they had to be. But it's like, those are the ones that's like, hey, let's figure out a transition plan. So you said you've been part of 10 businesses.

What is your main business today? yeah, yeah, it's a rise dash ventures. We sell businesses. So we're redoing our website. Yeah. So generally we'll get a call or referral from an owner ⁓ or from a financial advisor, lawyer, accountant, and ⁓ and we meet with them. And really we meet just like this and it's talking through it's for us. We always say it's like talking through just like at a kitchen table. We don't want it to be like, give us your five main objectives. We want it to be.

Hey, tell us about you. What do you think of your employees? Okay. How do you like give them, what do you think of the community? How do you get back? We're asking questions that kind of like what we'll call is we're trying to break through and see what's the character of the person. Because that's what every business, that's what a lot of, I think a lot of people miss when they're buying a business. It's like, well, if the EBITDA just hits this, if it just is 300,000, that means I can buy it for this. It's like, I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that Cody Sanchez and those people are teaching people.

That is crap. mean, yes, there should be a system, but it's like, would rather buy the great business and the great people. And it's like, if you're good enough and you believe in yourself, you're gonna put those right systems in place. And we've had that conversation, but it's like, I truly, that's where I see people that I just feel like can be more successful. ⁓ So we, yeah, we sit down with them, have a conversation. And then if they're like, yeah, if we feel like it's a fit personality-wise.

then what we do is we kind of put together, here's what we think your business is worth, we get their numbers, ⁓ and then if they're like, yeah, we think we're good with that, then what we do is we go out generally. At this point, we're working with a lot of family offices, private equity firms, and really we become a recruiter to some extent, but we really become just the kind of the buffer of like, is this the right fit for them? And there's a lot of some businesses that are super hot where you'll get a lot of offers no matter what people want to get into it.

And then there's ones where it's like, okay, we really got to find, it's going to be a needle in the haystack, but that's our job. It's like, we're going to try to find that. And there's different avenues for research and marketing and finding those people. And there's different platforms like BizBuySales, a big one that a lot of people use for us call it businesses under 2 million EBITDA, but there's some larger ones on there. BizBuySales is a great resource because a lot ⁓ of those deals and people may try to act like they get done, most deals never get done.

Like at that level because you're dealing with so many facets in what was the percentage you told me a percentage? But 77 % of businesses and it might have changed now, but 77 % of businesses under two million dollars in EBITDA never sell So that shows you I mean, I means there's guys all over and I've seen multiple now now I used to be like that can't be right There's got to be people that want to buy these but the reality is most people don't want to buy businesses They say they do and that's the new thing right? It's like I want my freedom. It's kind of like real estate people say

Well, it's just hard finding, there's nothing out there, you know, there's tons of deals out there. Anybody that looks for them, there are, but it's like you gotta be looking and you gotta actually be willing to take the risk. The thing with most business owners, most people will look for a year or maybe six months, they'll say they'll get really excited about it and they might get one under LOI and then they get scared. Because there's going to be stuff in due diligence. mean, talked, there's going to be stuff you're gonna find and be like, ⁓ crap.

Now if it's something where it's like stealing or some kind of like miss, like where it's like you see something, don't just ignore that. But if it's like, you know, they didn't keep their books right in this area or they did this or they have crappy equipment or there's some of this stuff. Yeah, it's like, then it's like that there lies the opportunity. So I always tell people it's like, if you look through, it's like you'll be able to tell pretty quickly a good business. And then you buy in, you buy in industries that are going to be sustainable. I mean, look out 20 years, it's like,

I mean, people always say, well, I the service-based businesses. Service-based businesses are some of the best businesses. They're some of the hardest businesses, though. I mean, that's what's so funny. It's like all the people I talk to, they're like, I want service-based. I'm like, go talk to owners of them and find out how easy it is to run them. But everybody, you know, there's all these ads and, ⁓ buy a service-based business doing X, Y, Z and buy it for this and, you know, go buy 10 of them. It's like, if it was that easy, not everybody would do it, because I do believe it's not super. I don't think it's the hardest thing in the world, but it takes a risk level.

it takes a getting it done level and it takes a, you you're gonna deal with a lot of people during those years. And that's a, well, it's like how many people do you wanna deal with? How much of a headache do you want your life? And yeah, can you set up systems for some of that stuff? Yes, but there's even like Gary Vee, he talks about, there's something about that one-on-one and getting to know your employees. Like you can never, even though we all are limited by time, that's one of those investments you have to make. And you talked about,

venturing into different areas and just going for it and you'll learn along the way per se. When we were actually looking at the Vineyard Deal, my wife and I had a lot of conversation about this because we loved the idea of it, we saw how we could make it make sense, but we looked at our strengths and we didn't really have much to offer that that we could improve value or even sustain where it was at. And what we would have to liquidate to make that work, it's kind of eggs all in one basket.

Granted, Elon Musk has done pretty well putting all his eggs in basket and getting it right 10 times over. But what would you say to people that are getting into a business where they might not have the right skill sets? That's an interesting one. I would say you better make sure you have people around you in that business who know what they're doing. that is, I ask myself that question a lot. like, if everybody left, what would I do? Like, what would I do? And it's like with my business now, it's like,

I feel comfortable, it's like selling businesses because we've done it several times, we bought several, it's like, not several, I mean a lot. So it's like now it's like, you're like, okay, I feel pretty confident, I mean, a lot of it, not the legal part, obviously, we hire lawyers for that, but it's like, I feel pretty good on that part, but it's like, I, but I've been doing it. And really I've been, it's like, we've owned this for four years, but I mean, we bought our first one 10 years ago, but I've been studying this for 19 years. Like my wife used to joke around, she's like, most guys were watching sports and hang out.

I was reading stock reports and reading business valuation stuff. I don't know why, I just loved it. And I had read something when I was in my probably early 20s that was about businesses and the owners retiring. And I had always, and my father-in-law worked in the non-profit world in fundraising and he ran a non-profit and he would always say, I meet with the, I would be like, what are those guys gonna do? I was always curious. And he's like, yeah, a lot of them don't have anybody to take over for them. So he started, he would introduce me to people. And I just started learning.

and you find out, that's a very true statement, even though there's all these resources of exit planning, all this stuff, but you know this, when you're running your business, you're just in it. I mean, you don't think, it's like you don't really think through, and you think, there's gotta be all these people calling these businesses to try to buy them. Nope, very, like it doesn't happen like that. Like that's what's so funny, it's like, it's not as competitive as we think. I tell people that in everything. It's just not as competitive as you think. And good brokers will tell you, they'll try to be a matchmaker.

versus trying to create a scarcity mindset. Because they'll try to act like, they'll be like, yeah, this one. I always tell people the truth. I'm like, yeah, we've had some LOIs on this, the owner didn't like this about them, or we haven't had any LOIs and this is why. It's like, I just want to be transparent with people. Because it's like, I don't want to put people in a position where they're going to end up going bankrupt. There's different people in this industry that have a reputation for that.

Why? It's because they're taking advantage. It's like, I don't care if you have money and you can afford the business, can you run the business? So your question is a good question. It's like, if your skill sets don't align, you better understand how to get in there and really do something. It's obviously for plumbing HVAC and those, it's a little harder. You have to really have the, that's where it's having the system and making sure you have a good grip on whoever carries that license. And then there's a lot, and then hopefully you can find some people.

and create some of those as partners. We talked about this. It's like, so they don't leave. That's the biggest thing. You just don't want them leaving. That's a, it's real. It happens. mean, it happens to a lot of people. So. So you and your business, you represent the seller. Yes. So right now we're trying to, I'm trying to get the deal through you guys that you have for sale.

You're basically like the middle man, the blocker between me and the seller. Like I'm trying to say this. Yeah, say it nicely, but be transparent in it. Like, but you're, you're, the gatekeeper essentially essentially playing middle man. And so it, does make a little bit harder, but from my vantage point, I kind of, mean, I try to work transparently and we've been, yep. It's been great.

Well, and that's thing, and that's why I always tell this, it's like we'll be transparent with the seller, you be, and my main goal is, and this is where a lot of business brokers and people in my industry would tell you, this is a really dangerous thing to do. My goal is that you really start just working with the person selling because a good broker understands, get out of the way as soon as possible. And if you live in, but a lot of people want to live in control or fear of it and they're trying to create a different story, I'm like, I want you know in everything.

Like, cause I don't want you coming back to me and being like, he lied or he did this, which has never happened. But it's like, that's where it's like, I hear that about different brokers in town. like, and I'm like, no, it's like our job, like a broker, brokerage is the wild, wild west. Cause people are gonna say whatever that, that's why people always say, do your own financial issues, do all these things. Like you have to do that. Like, cause we get only the numbers we get, right? And we're just marketing off of that. Now, are there ways we look at stuff and say, this isn't right? Or, you know, we talk to owners about that, but I try to talk to buyers about that too.

Because at the end of the day, a good buyer is going to, like, they need that during due diligence. You don't want them like, I don't want, it's like, I don't want you coming to me and being like, you sold me a bag of goods, or a bag of nothing. It's like, I want it to be a win for, like my business partners and I always say, we want it to be a win for everyone. Because that's how you're gonna get more business, and then everybody's gonna feel valued. By the end of the deal, is everybody tired, exhausted? And it's like, yes, but that is a, I mean, but at the end of the day, it's like, if we can all look at each other in the eye and say,

We sold a great business, we have a great buyer, that's our goal. And if we're not super, we generally, certain deals, we're involved so intensely with. But mostly, by the time we get into LOI, I'm like, I want you meeting together. You don't need me at those meetings, because you need to figure out, are you guys gonna work? There's a lot, due diligence-wise, and some brokers try to control that whole prospect, we do not. That is one thing, and we won't, because you have to get to, you gotta make sure, you're signing that, and signing that guarantee with the bank,

that you feel extremely comfortable with that. job answering my non-question question. I appreciate that. That's what I like about the business broker side though is it seems a lot more collaborative and it's like.

you wanna sell, you wanna buy, let's find a way to make this work and I'm here to advise on the right way of doing it. Whereas real estate brokerage is more you have these two egos going head to head, whereas if the seller and buyer were just talking to each other, they'd probably do a handshake and say, let's do it. But unfortunately, there's too much malice in the business where you can't do that. what is it about the business brokerage side or maybe it's the industry as a whole that...

I don't know, I guess the culture, how is it so much different? You can't ask the questions, do you think? Oh, no, no, well, that's a great question. I would tell you this. So, we always say we're eminent advisors. The business brokerage world in certain cities, there's some great, like I have some really good people that I talk to in Omaha that are business brokers. And then I have people that have a scarcity mindset and they're like, oh, well, we don't wanna share, we don't wanna do this. It's like, why? It's like, everybody, like there's so many businesses out there. There's so many people retiring.

And it's like the reality is it's because that's how they don't get enough business because they live in that mindset. And that's not, I'm just saying not mindset. It's also the way they act towards people. If you live like this where you're clinching, you don't want people to know it, like you're going to, unfortunately, like people are gonna see that with you. So I always say, it's like, will help, I've helped, I have a friend right now who wants to start a business brokerage. I literally gave them the blueprint. I'm like, we need more. And I've said, just do it the right way. Don't lie to people, tell the truth. Like be honest.

treat people well, do these little things. And it's like, you'll figure out, selling a business, lawyers know way more than most people about it. Now, can lawyers get a deal done? No, and I don't mean that in mean way. It's just like, they will block because they'll start, they'll get so caught in the details. So you have to have that person that's pushing the deal through. But I say that, it's like, once we all get together, it's like, there's a point, and this is one of the statements I've come up with recently. I've said, there's a point in the middle of a deal.

where you have to turn from being, at each other as basically adversaries trying to get the best deal to becoming friends and figuring out how we're gonna work this together. It happens about usually 30 days into due diligence where it's like, hey, we gotta be done with all the kind of back and forths. It's like now let's figure out how to integrate and do this as a great job. And that's a, and if you can't get past that, that deal will not get done.

because what will happen is a week or two before it, there'll be a million other things that the bank wants and all these people want, and if you don't have that, already that built-in trust, the deal will just fall apart. Because you'll still think you're negotiating, when in reality you're not. You're supposed to be trying to figure out how to be sustainable. Best advice I've come across on that, I don't know exactly where I got it, was if you want to be the CEO, start acting like the CEO from that time.

And so you have to think of it as I'm working to get the deal done as the CEO. And so getting insurance and transferring stuff and licenses and all that stuff, you're working not getting paid for it, but you're working for the potential of what's to come. Yep. It's so true. And I think when you look at it that way, it's like, that's how deals do, like you said, you have to get all those things, you have to get all that done.

And it's like, and then you just wanna work, and that's why I said you wanna make sure from the beginning. That's why I generally say I have to have the right seller and the right buyer. Because if you don't have those two things, and certain sellers, wanna see all these offers. I'm like, why do you wanna see offers? Who cares? It's like, the right buyer and figure it out with them. Because that's how I deal. Otherwise, it's like you're gonna end up hating each other and the deal just won't get done. Because it'll be 90 days in. I mean, happens inevitably. It's like I talk to all these business brokers and they're like,

Gosh, like this happens all the time. I'm like, yeah, it's like, then don't like, it's like, make sure like you're coaching them the right way and don't be a block. Like let them kind of figure out each other. So they don't like each other within a week or two, they're gonna figure it out. it's like, if the business isn't good enough, they're gonna walk out. So it's like versus wasting everybody's time for 80, 90 days. It's like be direct and be like, hey, we wanna, it's, and you can usually see it pretty quickly. Like I can usually see right now generally when I find that right.

It's harder at some of the sizes we're getting to because ⁓ they don't make decisions off necessarily of people. It's all off cash flow ⁓ and all off systems. That's a weird one when you start seeing that. Now, do I think that is why a lot of companies fail? Yes, because when you only think about systems and cash flow, because inevitably, people are what make the world go round and round. Like, even with AI.

It's like AI will not, because human interaction is too, like when you think of like all just the, like the neurons in our brain, in our hearts, in our souls, in our minds, when you talk about human interaction and what those do to people, I mean it's like that will never stop. So I think that's always going to be a high value. And I think the people who really figure that out and can implement that in their businesses, obviously we're not talking about tech here and certain things, but it's like that's going to be the sustainable model.

So back up a little bit. you're dealing with a little bit larger companies, but say you're below the $2 million range. You're a new person. You've never bought a company before. How do you approach a broker? How do you sell yourself as someone who's never done it? And you knowing that 77 % of businesses under that mark never close. you can more than likely waste your time.

on this person, how's that person sell that to you? So I'll give you, so I had, ⁓ so we had a business, this is, it all ties in. So we had a business that everybody, had buyer profiles down. We had like nine people who this business, it was the, just the perfect one they said. I sent it to, I think I sent it to eight of them. And I, and one of them I couldn't find or I couldn't remember what it was, but I know we had talked before. And I sent it to all eight of those.

and every one of them came back with a fear-based ⁓ deal. And you're just like, okay, interesting. They say they all wanted it, but they didn't. Because fear became their greatest. They realized, and I'll tell you why. And then the person who ended up buying it had probably the most to lose, four kids, all this, but what had that person done? They had already quit their job. And they didn't get fired, they had quit their job because they wanted to find a business. So I could tell.

and working with them that I was like, they had already burnt the ship, so to speak. They didn't have a huge inheritance they were sitting on or anything like that. So that to me, as a broker, it's like you're looking for those little intangibles that's like, okay, is this person gonna do it? The person that has a really good job at Union Pacific, Conagra, any company, I'm using Nebraska ones, but that is call a senior manager, director who hates their life and tells me they hate their life.

And I'm not saying all those corporations are bad, but I'm just giving you a generalization. I am very careful of those because I learned this when I first started my business. Those are the people that everybody thinks, they have the money, they can buy the business. Almost zero of them will ever close because at the end of the day, fear will become their greatest reality. When they go to their wife and say, hey, the bank is making a sign over right now ⁓ our house and our assets and it's a $2 million and we have 2 million saved, we've been smart.

and we make 300, 400 grand a year, that wife's gonna look at you and go, no way. so I try to make sure, is your wife, are they good with it? Like this is what I would always do, is your wife good with it? Tell me about risks you've taken in your life. What have you owned in your life? So you're really, you're getting a sense. Now if you're one of those people who have really studied those, I'm gonna call acquisition courses and those type of things, then you better have a, all right, here's my financing structure, here's who I have.

Here's what we, you better be able to show, because certain brokers are gonna wanna see that. I generally don't, because I know, like I can usually get a hunch by talking to them, and I know what banks want. ⁓ And I know that there's creative ways. I'm one that does believe in that. Some people would say, well, you have to, this is what the SBA wants, this is how it's gonna be. And I'm like, we've seen some pretty wild deals that have gotten done. So it's like, think that's where it's like, think you kinda get the sense, have they been entrepreneurs?

And that's what I think most business brokers are trying to qualify for. It's like, A, can you, and then they're trying to qualify for personality too. Because they know what their seller's going to work with. They know if their seller's gonna be good with that person. So that's a big part. Whereas I hear people like, yeah, I can't ever get past the broker. It's like, well first off, don't always just work through a broker. Try to go find businesses. Go look for them. Make cold calls. Send out stuff.

Ask your friends, accountants, and I'm literally telling people stuff to do that takes away business from me, but I realize there's so much business out there. And there's a lot of these smaller businesses that I want to see sell. It's hard, when I've, like, I mean, I had one, gosh, probably five, six years ago that somebody had brought us, they knew we were buying businesses, and I was running a nonprofit too, and they're like, ⁓ we have this business, it does, I think it was doing 400 and just repeat profit a year.

with like, was in the construction industry and making another three to four hundred grand a year, 800,000, the owner would have sold it for $230,000. He didn't even want money up front. He just wanted me and, or basically me and another guy, really is the, and the other guy would have been a big part, but he just wanted us to take over. He just wanted his business to continue. He's like, dude, I got like 10 employees. And guess what? They ended up closing down. Nothing ever happened. They tried to work through a broker too, who was, you know, put a, after that they tried to put a broker.

and the broker never even got it closed. And it was like, and he's like, yeah, he's like, we got unrealistic on price. And I was like, well, why did you, he didn't even care about price. But it's because people, like once again, that's where I always tell sellers, it's like, you gotta care. It's like, if price is your main thing, which some owners need that, it's like, we're not gonna work well together. Not because I don't wanna give you a good price, it's like, want, but I want it to be, I care more about you and like how your life's gonna look 10 years from now.

in selling it to the wrong person can cause a lot of headaches. Vice versa, buying the business from the wrong person can cause a lot of headaches. So I think ⁓ as a new person, it's being humble, saying, hey, I've done research on this. It's like, here's what I've done in my job. I'm gonna quit, like not just quit, here's my transition plan. I've already talked to my company. You're looking for these little things because otherwise, you know when it comes down to it, they are not gonna end up leaving.

Quitting your job ahead of time though is a double-edged sword from the standpoint of getting an SBA loan. Yes. you're not as bankable. Yes. You have to be, yeah, there's a fine line. So that's why I said there's a fine line and that's where I think you have to, as a broker, we're seeing what have they made tough decisions in the past. I'll give you a for instance, I had a person, I he had worked at a company 18 or 20 years.

and he came to me, I hate what I'm doing, they've put so much pressure on me, all this stuff, I got young kids, I'm looking for freedom, I wanna build something with them, all those different things. We find the perfect scenario for him, low value, I didn't even bring it out to market. And at the end of the day, it's like, he was like, I'm so excited. And two weeks later, my wife knows I was Joker and I got the Sunday afternoon call, hey man, know, my job is actually going really well right now.

We're doing really good. We just got a lot going on with our kids and it's just not the right time to make a move. Well, dude, you're 50. When is the right time? I mean, and I mean that in the nicest way, but you realize being an entrepreneur and even a business buyer, you have to have a level of risk. It's for the 1%. You can read all the stuff that Cody and all these people are putting out and a lot of it, I'll be honest, I struggle tremendously with it because I get calls from people that just follow those systems.

And how many of those people, here's an interesting stat. And I was trying to track this. Out of all the people I know in Omaha who have all gone through all those different courses, and I'm not counting you because you actually did buy, but I'm saying, other people, I can think of one person, one person who's actually bought one. Out of the ETAs, entrepreneur through acquisitions, all these different things, one person.

And we all, and the funny part is all, like I'll get together with other business brokers, &A advisors, we all know those people. And it's like, they, and the reality is it's because fear and risk became too great for them. And it's like they start seeing, and you'd see a lot. And I was telling them, it's like, go see if this is for you. But if you've never ran a business, I would just say, it's like figure, maybe do something on the side to learn, like is this for you? And kind of get customer service experience, probably put in some systems because.

that's gonna give you a hint of do you really like it? That's where franchises are good sometimes, like people, but the problem is franchises have gotten expensive and you're still having to sign guarantees and all this stuff, but that's where they can be good, because you get to see do I really like building something? Now buying a business, like I said, if it has some of those systems in place, that's great, but it doesn't matter. Every business we've ever bought has had through, I mean, the most stable business we bought thought it was gonna be the best business. We closed a little bit before COVID and COVID hit.

and literally every project put on hold a year. All of a sudden we need to come up with a million dollars. What are you doing in that situation? No bank's lending. Thank God I had rich partners. I mean, literally, we would have gone under. So I say, that's where aligning yourself with the right partners and the right people is extremely important. mean, because it's like those things can happen and those are the unavoidables. Now, would we have been able to? I don't know, we probably would lost all our employees because if you can't make payroll, you lose people.

So it's like the main goal is gotta make payroll, right? So having those people that are in your back pocket that are when you buy a business that you could call or that are gonna have some part with you. And some people, don't wanna, they're like, oh, I wanna own most of it or I want this. It's like, I'm always like, man, I like having partners because now I've been through some, I've had one bad partnership in my life and everything else has been pretty great. So it doesn't mean it's all been easy. We've gotten fights, there's been different things we've had to work through.

That's where I think doing this stuff, it's like being open, honest, vulnerable, transparent. It's like not having anything to prove to one another. It's like that's how you, and I think business brokers can feel that too. It's like when people, I always joke around, the most humble people I know are the most successful people, because they realize they don't know anything. And it's like the people that, know, generally it's the, I'll call it the middle managers at corporations that have played politics, and it's like they think that they could go buy and build a successful business.

very few of those people do well. So I'd say it's, yeah, you get to see a lot. You get to see it's sad too. It's funny to you say about the Cody Sanchez students, because I feel like on the commercial real estate, especially multifamily, it's the subject to people and the seller financing and everything. When I have a multifamily listing, couldn't, probably four or five messages a week from someone who's like, hey, could I educate your seller on seller financing? Like, can I?

Can I educate you on how to make an introduction? It's so funny and that's the hard part because I always say if that seller, now do those exist? Yeah, generally before they come to me. And generally those are built only through relationship. And that's usually my response is I say the seller is open to offers but before considering a seller financing he would want to understand you and your business strategy.

I don't have any business yet. Yeah, no, that's it. And that's the hard part. That's where I think you have to, it's hard telling people to do this, but it's like, you just gotta pull the trigger. There is a level where it's like, and even the guys, and it's funny, because I mean, now it's like, I've sat down with guys that own several businesses, but they just pulled triggers. They just had to get over that fear factor. And if you can get over that, and like I said, you'll find things if you just stay on the move. If you're moving and just trying to figure out stuff,

you will have opportunities that will cross your path that is, and I mean, I can say that from our world. We started this thinking we don't wanna deal with P.E. and family office. Now that's almost all we deal with. Why? Because well, our deals progressively got larger. so it's a, I mean, it's just funny, like you don't know where it's gonna go, but why did we do that? Well, I wasn't afraid to pick up the phone and call. Like, I don't know. It's like, there is something about that entrepreneurial side. It's not like I'm anything special. I'm not at all. I got my nursing degree.

But it's like not being afraid in business, and just coming at it from a place of being teachable. You could probably call any plumbing owner of a large plumbing company and say, I own a plumbing company, and people will talk to you. I do that with M &A firms. Certain M &A firms, I talk to or I'll call and just be like, hey, here's who we are. We'd love to just sit down and have coffee with you. I've gotten leads from those people. I've gotten referrals because they understand, it's like I'm not coming, they're like.

let me tell you how we're gonna do take care. It's like, I'm like, no, I'm like, here's who we are. We're gonna do, we're gonna be genuine. If your buyer's looking for XYZ, you might not want us. And then I do the same thing. If a buyer calls me, or a seller calls me and is like, hey, this is what we're looking for. If I can't deliver that, I'm gonna bring it to someone else. I'm gonna go find the right person for them because it's like, I want to take care of them. And I know that comes around. Like if I do the right thing by people, it's like,

it's going to come back to me. people have different beliefs on all that, but it's like, I'm not, it's not just mindset. It's like, I just don't want to live in scarcity. And partially, I just don't want to live that way. I think that would suck. For mindset, how does the seller get over the mindset, the fear-based mindset of buying it? I mean, to Tanner's point, there's a lot of difference between buying a $200,000 single-family home.

and a $2 million business, that single family home you have insurance on, burns down, you know, it's not going to zero. You might lose value, but it's not going to zero. You still get rent. A business, you can run that to zero. You can run it to zero and more. think the vice versa is also true. I you're not going to buy a $200,000 house and sell it for $2 million, but you can buy a $2 million business and sell it for 10. You have to see where that seller believes enough in themselves.

in enough in like, in their okay if it all went to zero. Like you have to hear those things like in a weird way where it's like they are at the point where they're ready to just take a risk. I've had two, I'm thinking of some of the buyers we've had. You make me feel real arrogant with that. No, no, No, no, I think that's like, but I think that's like how do you get over that? So that's a scary, it's such a good question because it's like, that's so true. It's like how do you get your mind around risk? So part of it.

is hearing honestly people like you, me, people like this on these podcasts where it's like, we've done it. And you just gotta be like, dude, was it easy? No, it sucked. It's like, it really did. was like for years, like I can't remember being with my wife. I can't remember during COVID with my wife saying, well, ⁓ we might be completely under our guarantees. Like, mean, like we have three businesses that are essentially gone at this point. They all recovered. We got the, you know, the government did step in. That's where I was like, there were some good things.

But it's like, that was a real fear. Like when your businesses can't either find people or service people. I remember having that conversation. I remember when one of my friends told me, he goes, it's like, think I just literally threw all our businesses, he's my business partner, he goes, I think I just lost, I think we just lost like a million and a half dollars. Like we're gone. Like, basically like our businesses are done. And they all, and it's like, and I remember him calling and saying that, and I was just like, we'll figure it out.

And because that's the great part about small business, you can kind of figure it out. Like it's weird saying that. If you're nimble enough and you ⁓ persevere enough, you'll figure it out. I've never had a business go under. Several of them probably should have, but it's like either we were too dumb and people say, I was just too dumb to let it go under, but it's like, no, it was still small enough. We can be nimble enough. We could cut the things we needed to cut. could for, hey, we can't make these payments for the next month.

go work, but you gotta call those people. You gotta be transparent. Those are the people that will work with you forever. And it's like, I can say that, it's like, I have banks, because of how I handle the situation in my life, that will work with me forever, because they saw, I still, like, during those hard times, was like, I'll figure it out, we'll make those payments, we'll make the interest, go to interest only. I mean, you just, you gotta become nimble. I think that's part of, so I think when people hear that, they're like, okay, it's like, get ready for those though. It's like, there's going to be seasons where businesses are gonna go like this.

There's gonna be something where your employee does something dumb. I mean, you're going to have to handle situations. And I think just understanding that's part of it, I think that will help a lot of people get over that hump. And realizing like small business, you can be nimble. You can get creative. You can figure out things. One introduction could change everything. I mean, it's wild saying that, but I've seen that multiple industries. So I think it's just, I think you just, I think it's like anything in life. You just gotta do it. But yes, you gotta go in with like a plan too. So that's the other part I was gonna say.

You're not gonna like with business brokers like a lot of them might ask, well, what's your plan? What's your expertise? Well, how do you know this area? That's an, mean, no, having a value added, that's probably like with you with commercial real estate. Well, I just want to own it because I read I can get $500 cashflow if I hired this and do this. It's like, great. Does it work like that? No, I owned rental properties for a while and it's like, it never worked like that. So it's like, now can it if you like maybe get everything set up the right way? Sure, I believe it can. But ⁓ that's a challenge in itself too.

I don't know if that answered your question. No, go ahead. I was going say what I liked about what you said, one of my favorite, uh, hormones eclipse is when he's talking about he's going under and he tells Layla, I think you should leave me. I'm sinking ship. And she said, I would sleep under a bridge with you. And what you just said was while you're going through the thick of it, you didn't talk about your business partners and what they were saying to you. said what your wife said, and we hired a business consultant and he has been stressing to us.

that Sherman Inc. is our first business and my business partner is my wife. And so how much or how important is it to be that rock for your spouse and vice versa? Everything. I mean, I think that's because I think when you know you're in it together, like and you also treat because like here's the thing, I've dealt with a business partner who's like, well, my family is my priority. I'll do everything for them. But kind of like it's almost saying, but screw you guys. You know, it's like, ⁓ wait, the second my wife and I when we go into business with someone,

they are our family. Like no matter what, like if I owe money to them, they are my family. Like I will, I'm going to figure that out. So it's like we take that seriously. And like my wife understands that. Like that's a character thing for us. When people do this, like well I'll do every, because those are the people that they'll end up, they'll screw you out of something because well it was best for my family. It's like, well gosh, that doesn't feel very good to me. So I think that's a, I love.

Alex Formozzi is one of those guys I really actually enjoy. He's the guy I would tell people, listen to what he's saying. Like, cause he gets like how hard it is and he gets that side of it. I think they, I mean him and his wife, like I've to theirs. They're one that I can actually listen to and be like, they've done, they get it. And now, and they- they're selling you the fluff. And they're not selling you the fluff. That's what I was like, I listened to something from him the other day. It was like a YouTube clip and I was like, ⁓ it's like finally. I like, he's finally one of those guys who's actually saying-

It's what I believe. I joke around, like, I'm gonna start marking myself as the anti-Cody Sanchez because it's like, I read these, it's like, oh, put systems, this. Systems are great. People are everything. And we have to remember that. And if you don't know that, you will find that out and it will find it out by getting your house repossessed by a bank. mean, it's amazing how many people, and they'll be like, and so that's why I say I look for those.

when we're working with people, it's like how do they value people? And it's funny, the best PE firms in the world that actually have good reputations, their number one thing is the people. I mean, it's inevitable, it is the people. They will stress that in due diligence like crazy. They are finding out, tell me about your people, tell me about, I mean, nonstop. They're putting them into employment contracts. I they're getting those people because they understand that's going to make, I mean, have groups right now that like, I won't do this deal without that person.

That puts a lot of stress on that person, I mean, to an extent, but it's like, hey, that means they really care about you. So I mean, there's a level like where, yeah, that's where I think people, you you can dumb it down pretty quickly, like when you look at a business, it's like, is there good enough processes and systems? Have they taken care of, yeah, it's like, you can see that pretty quickly. And then like the people, you'll get a sense by turnover, by some of that stuff. And then it's like, beyond that, it's like, you know, you can kind of meet with the owner and then see, okay, is this owner?

a freakishly talented person, were they a systems person, or what was their secret sauce? And if you don't understand what their secret sauce is, don't buy that business. Because unless you have, especially if they have long-term employees, because there's something they were doing that kept those people there. Like I talked to one guy this week. Yeah, I talked to him this week and I talked to him last week, but he's looking at large businesses we own. And he owns, has one business that's doing a billion dollars in sales. He's a primary owner.

He owns several businesses. This guy, I was just blown away. He was an XPE guy and he just was too entrepreneurial, went out on his own. But I was just talking to him and it's so funny listening to somebody like him talk because alls he cared about was, it wasn't even like, it's like the product, yeah, some of that, all that, but he was just like, the people, tell me about them. How long have they been there? Okay, what do they wanna do? What's their plan? I mean, every question was just geared into that because I asked him, said, what's your strategy? He goes, I back the person.

Because I'm the majority owner, but he goes, back the person. Beyond that, he goes, if I don't have those like one or two people that I feel like are gonna stay for 15 years, he goes, and I'm gonna tie them in. He's like, I'm not buying the business. So there's a level of that that's just interesting. Damon John, I watched an interview from him. He says the exact same thing. The company he invests in, he's like, I wanna, like this is my-

He talks about socks. yeah, yeah, that was the biggest Did you see that one? I saw a clip when he was talking about his like, know, socks, blah, blah, know, fashion guy, whatever, but back to people. Yeah, think that's a huge, I mean, I think that's a huge part of it. And then you see, like I said, and then finding out what that owner, if you're buying a business, you want to know what their skill set is. And I have owners I work with where I'm like, okay, there's a huge opportunity here.

because they are, like I said, they're either exhausted, they may not even like their business anymore. And those are ones where I don't mind taking those, because if they're transparent about it. Because you can sit down with someone like you guys and be like, hey, I don't really like my business, it's a great business, it makes really good money, but it needs people that care, but my guys like working for me because they can kind of do whatever they want. There's some mixed bags with that because they can do whatever they want. When you buy that, you're gonna wanna set a culture. So I mean, there's gonna be some back and forth, but.

How you go about that, I think it makes a big difference. How do you evaluate a business based on that? you know, you say, it's three X, it's five X, it's seven X, or you run these complicated, I mean, that's a great question. don't, don't, I don't see all your questions are good. I don't value it based off of it's, it's hard to say. So I generally, we look at comps, right? You look at comps and, then there's industries and then there are those one or two businesses where it's like, Hey,

They're doing this, but they could do this, but they have the right people and they're going to do this. So I'll give you, there's one right now, or there's one that we had ⁓ ended up closing multiple offers ⁓ and they were doing, when we, so they went from 20 million in sales to I nine million in sales. These are rough numbers, could be a little off. High teens, nine, nine, eight, nine million.

but they had built during those down times and during everything they did, A, they went through the EOS and one of those implementator, they did, they kind of got their whole, I think it was Leadership Resources is the company that helped them out of Lincoln, which I think they do a great job from what I've seen. So they worked with them and they put together, who's gonna be our whole, here's who we are. They set up their system, they set up who's roles, all that stuff. And then they hired during the down times.

when we got hit with a weather event, this company was driven on weather event, they went from eight or nine to 35 to 40. And they had told every group, if we get hit with this weather event, we will do this amount of revenue. They did five million over what they had thought. But they had set it up the right way in the hard times. There's something about this. it's like, but guess what? That means during those hard times, the owner might go from making...

a million dollars to, or maybe more in this case, a million and a half to maybe they're only making a million that year. Maybe instead of making four million one year, they're making two because they're getting it set up to make 10. I mean, that's the, so I think that, making that investment, that's real. When do you make those investments? How do you do that? And that's where I think from the beginning, having a system that's like, we're gonna follow this, but you don't have to be so rigid in it. I think that's where, like I think that's the danger is certain people get really rigid.

And I'll talk to people, like they miss the opportunity. never, it's like, I think that's a really important thing is like, you gotta, it's like, there's just a nimbleness when you're buying a business and there's ways to figure out almost everything. You can tell we've been doing this a while because I've been waiting to weave this question, which is kind of along the same lines, but at each multiple growth and EBITDA, what would you expect to see as far as staffing? You know, for example, if you have a 500,000 EBITDA, you probably have a sole entrepreneur that

runs, most of their, they're an everybody guy, but the 5 million EBITDA, you would expect to have a senior level manager, junior manager, and so on. Yeah, it's, you would think. This is the greatest thing, and that's what's so funny when you talk to like, and I'll say it's like in some of the access we've gotten to see and then some of the groups that we get to just talk to and be a part of, you would think, all right, these guys that do 20 million of EBITDA, they gotta have their crap all together.

and they gotta have all these systems in place. I'm dealing with a company right now that's still done, they've had years where they've done nine million of EBITDA and they have no CRM, no, I mean nothing. No customer databases, no all this stuff, but they do exactly what they say they're gonna do. They've built some good relationships, they've maintained those relationships and they have a good product. Is it more commercial based? Yeah.

So it's really funny that you're like, you don't have any of this? And then I've dealt with vice versa. I've dealt with plumbing companies and different companies that I've seen, multiple that I've seen in the trade services where their owner was just ingrained in really good and you would think they would have all these things, but they were running half of what they needed to have, but they were super profitable. So to answer your question, generally at about a million EBITDA.

there is, ⁓ you're gonna see some systems. Like you're gonna see, you know, maybe a customer data, a CRM system, maybe a project management system, and let's just do service-based companies, for instance. ⁓ To get to that million dollar EVA to mark, generally I'll see, like, they have to have some sort of good systems. They have to have a hiring system. They have to have something in place. From one to five is when you put the layer of middle management in, or I'll call it middle, I'll call it executive management.

And you already have your lead, your foreman's, all that stuff, but you might have, okay, we're gonna need more of a book keep, we're gonna need more of a CFO, we're gonna need these pieces of the pie that can allow the owner, and depending on what the owner's skill set is to either be a visionary or the owner could be an amazing, they could be really good in one area. Most owners, it's very hard to say, I'm not that great at leading this, but I'm really, really good at our back office and technology part.

Dude, if the owner's good at that, let him do it. I mean, I know a guy that like, they own a roofing company and that's what the owner does and he has somebody that's the CEO and president of that company. Why? Because the owner's humble enough to realize it's like, well, by doing it that way, I make $3 million a year versus making $300,000 a year doing it my own way. I mean, so it's like when you realize when you're humble enough to admit your gap, ⁓ that's where I think businesses, that's where, and I think those are the owners a lot of times at those levels.

where it's like, and where we get to see and you're like, wow, that owner really, I've yet to see a business, I'll say this, I've yet to see a business at five, or I'll say at three million plus EBITDA, where the owner wasn't very aware and didn't have a really good team. Like I have one right now where the owner does five million of SHIBITDA and he took over, he's the trainer.

He has somebody running everything day to day, but he goes out and trains in the field. Why? Because he's really, he loves the training part. He actually loves just the business or doing that part of the business. He never really wanted to grow a business. That's not his passion, but he hired great people around him and he's just, very, he's quiet. He does what he says he's gonna do. He's just a good and amazing guy. So it's like funny. You get those type of people and ⁓ yeah, you get to see those, but like I would say, at a million, you gotta have some of those.

to get to that next level, it becomes a lot more about who you surround yourself with. And then every once in a you'll see an industry where the owner's just, it's abnormal and you'll see an eight million dollar EBITDA company where the owner does almost everything and really just controls everything. And then you're like, how did you get there? That owner is a freakishly talented person, but they're generally an absolute jerk ⁓ or control freak. Well, it's hard because that business isn't sellable, because they are the business. They are the business. Yeah. So is there ceiling?

Is there a that you think is harder to get through than others? Man, ⁓ I think getting, I think A, just getting profitable and understanding your numbers is the number one ceiling. I was gonna ask on that, do you think CFO positions are gonna go away with AI? You don't? There'll be, cause AI, cause there'll be always a people side of interpreting death.

And there'll always be that side where it's like, do you trust? How much do you trust? mean, okay, chat, GBT, it's getting a lot better, all that stuff, but I'll still have things where it misses like crazy and it doesn't know exactly. And it's like, and I'm decent. I mean, I use a lot of that stuff, but I think there is a, I think having good accounting and good CFOs and people that understand how to interpret numbers. And then the next thing, good CFOs know how to give you strategy behind those. So I always say, makes a CFO? strategy.

So ⁓ my, one of my business partners, Aaron Flaw, I remember talking to a recruiter in Omaha probably seven or eight years ago, it's the biggest, they did the most, they still do, most accounting, CFOs, controllers in Omaha, and I asked them, I said, do you know about this guy? He's like, yeah, he's the most sought after CFO in Omaha. I said, what? He goes, yeah, he goes, he's the best CFO. And I had known that, I'd worked with him. This is my business partner. I'm like, that's good to hear. And he says, I said, what makes a great CFO? He goes, can they think?

can they help the executive team think in strategy? Like how to forward think with numbers. And being able to interpret that and then make decisions on that, that's what good CFOs help their COO, CEO with. I don't foresee that going away, ⁓ but I could be wrong. I could be wrong, I could be wrong. I think it's a good question. ⁓ When you said it, that's what it made me think of that. So on the deals that...

You said they're missing a CRM or something so simple. How are you not foaming at the mouth to just jump on it and cherry pick it? And this leads into a question more about shiny object versus staying with what you Because I know how hard it is. And that's always, I know how hard getting those things, we've done it. So it's like, I joke around, like, used to, my business partner, my one business partner, Danny, when he said, we're starting this business, he goes, you have to make one deal with me. We won't invest or buy anything for a minimum two years.

And we did that because he's like, you need to focus because you love the operator. You love seeing the growth. It's who you are. But it's like, you can't do that. You got to focus. We're going to sell businesses. And we thought we were going to do interim stuff. We realized we weren't doing it after about two months. And part of it's a blessing, but it's like, this is also a hard thing. get enough, like I said, there's enough businesses to sell in Omaha. Selling the right ones becomes the hard part because everybody, if you have 100 or 200,000 EBIT of business,

And we could have 500 of those right now that we could sell, but you don't sell them. They're hard to sell because it's hard to buy a company. Like if you think about if it's doing 150 of EBITDA and or SDE is the term that and it's like, okay, so you do that. You buy that business. You're let's say you buy it for three times. Okay, your debt payments going to be $45,000 a year, $50,000 a year. That's an 80 to $90,000 to live off of with. That means there was no dips, nothing bad happened or anything.

not too many people can live off that. it becomes a, becomes how does that become sustainable? You better grow that thing. So I always said that level, if you really wanna buy a small business, you better have a plan and you better be able to implement that plan really.

And quickly, unless you have a lot of money, where you're like, I'm okay, this is the right concept and I'm gonna grow up. Have I seen that happen? Yes.

I guess I look at it, I've been lucky if you will. I started later because I spent 20 years in the military. You were in the military. However, that 20 years in the military also gave me the security to take the gambles because I can...

not worry about how much money I'm making from the business and service the debt and focus on growing it because I do have a military retirement. it's a, yes, I started at 40, but I also had security. So. But that's a blessing. Like what you did is, I mean, that's a blessing. Like, and that's where, mean, in the perfect world, should everybody have passive income and have that before you buy a business, it'll help you sleep better at night. Cause I know what it's like not to, but it's like some people, it's like,

You know, the people that are in their 20s or early 30s that saved really well, they're like, hey, I'm gonna just go after something. I think there can be something. I think that can work too, but yeah, it's a, that's a tough way to, I mean, that's like you said, doing what I just talked about, that's tough. Because that's a lot of risk. You're not as much risk. The 18 year old, the 19 year old, 20 year old wants to start out. Go learn, go learn. Just go learn. You wouldn't recommend them.

too much of life if you haven't, and let's, I'll tell you what, it's like with, all right, we're gonna get into Nebraska football real quick here, okay? Are you guys okay with that? Are you Nebraska football Might start twitching. Okay, so I've been saying this, it's like, all right, I think Dylan Raola has one of the best arm talents in the country. But his decision making, processing, and quarterback pocket awareness is some of the worst I've seen. Why is it? Because alls he did is go to the greatest schools.

All he did is go to great teams and just show off and had wide open receivers and had all the time in the pocket. Give me the person that had to work their way there. But I mean, that's why in the NFL, why do all these first, second, third round picks not make it? Why do the guys that came off of practice squads, D2 colleges and all, why do these guys make it longer? And I'm not saying it's, there's statistics about all this, it's like because they had to go through some harding.

Like they had to go through some hard stuff. If things are just easy, that's why it's like 18, 19, and 20, I'm not saying you can't be extremely successful. There's a 19 year old I get together with right now, that dude's just hungry. But it's like, I bet he's been through some stuff in life. There's a level of, one of the things when I look at qualifying people, I always wanna know what have you gone through? How hard's your life been? You know, I wanna know like, is there a, like because, I wanna know like, have you been through some crap? Because are you gonna make it when times get tough? Because it will.

18, 19, 20, it's just hard to have gone through that much, in my opinion. I could be wrong. They had that movie, it's a NASA movie about the guy, I don't think he was a legal immigrant or whatever, but they were living in California and just moving around. But because of that, he didn't have as good of grades, he didn't have as much opportunity as others, and they kept denying him, denying him, denying him. And then finally,

time they found out a story where he'd come from and how much work he had to put in to get even where he was. Yes, didn't have the ceiling everybody else had, but he had smashed through 20 other ceilings on his way there. And so they were like, we got to give this guy a chance. They did, did well. And now NASA changed our complete recruiting policy because of that. Yeah. a lot of places do. So it's funny, I get to talk to all these people that are like,

And it's funny you go to the highest levels of corporate America in general now are there the companies where it was all political and people yeah, it's like but you realize And it's funny cuz you're like, well, they were super political. That's how you move up in that company Yeah, but what else did they do they moved they had to go places. They tried new assignments They persevered they persevered at the same time. Well, yeah, did they probably kiss a lot of butt? Sure But it's like there is like it's it's there is you just never know if that person's going to be that

Like there's just, you just never know. You know what I mean? Like if there, and that's why I always say, what have you gone through? It's one of my questions I ask a lot of people. It's like, I just want to know. Cause it's like, if you've gone through hard things, it's like, well, yeah, you know, actually I went through this. My wife almost left me. We had this going on. I had this addiction battle. I went and it's like, and you know, I'm not perfect, but it's like, you know, every day it's like I'm fighting and it's like, and then, oh yeah, we built this at the same time. We see this success thing. I'm like, I want to work with you. Cause that means you've gone through stuff and you know how to work, you know how to get through things one time.

are hard. Yeah. So I'm curious, what's your why?

I wanna see people's lives transformed. That's my biggest thing is like, so business is just an avenue. Mine is like, wanna see, I'm a believer. I wanna see people do business differently. I've sat down with so many people where it's like, my employees are this and this, it sucks. It's like, and I'm like, man, learn to serve them. Learn to like love them. Learn to like be in people's lives. So it's like, I don't know, I look at businesses, like the number one job as a CEO is to be with the people, is to care about the people.

And it's like if that, it's like if I can help people along the way doing that and I can transition cool businesses doing that, that's what I care about. I wanna give generously, like our business we give from the top and we wanna keep doing that, we wanna increase that. Right now we give, and as in bragging, we give 10 % from the top line revenue. So it's cool, like this year I hope we're giving 150 to 200,000 minimum to the community and hopefully more next year.

It's like we wanna keep doing those things and just growing it. And so I look at it, we always say it's a generosity machine. And so I want that to be, my why is like I wanna be, and I want my kids, it's like I wanna be able to just have fun with my business partners and have fun with the people I'm in business with and do cool things. it's like help people out and see people that, we bought a half a million dollar EBITDA business, it's doing 10 million EBITDA, thanks so much. It's like those are things I get passionate about, because I think that's where, I just think that's gonna be.

It's like, you know, at the end of life, I'm gonna lay there one day. It's like my kids, my family, and how I treated people and how I love people. That's all I'm gonna be remembered by. Nothing else matters, the stuff, any of that stuff. And not saying that's not fun, I love eating out at good restaurants. I like going to cool vacations. But it's like, know that at the end of the day, it's like, are the number one thing people always say is I wish I woulda had more time. So I do need to figure that part out, because I do work a lot right now. Wish I woulda had more time, and I wish I woulda had more kids. Those are the, all right, more time with the people I loved, and I wish I woulda had

Kids those are literally the number the number what tooth are the two top two things? Mm-hmm. That's awesome and back to the Damon John thing. He was talking very similarly He said that there's you know the people that get on the show on Shark Tank and they go up and they're they're just looking for publicity and all this stuff He said all of the sharks like there's nothing they hate more than that person that comes up just to pitch their business and asking for you know, 10 ⁓

$10 million for 1 % of my business, whatever, just ridiculous valuation. And he's like, the reason that we hate it so much is because there are thousands of people that apply for this to get on the show. And you just stole an opportunity away from someone who's trying to change their family's life. And he's like, and I will never forgive you for that. So I mean, I've never heard it said in that way, but similar to what you just said is about helping people achieve something that they never thought was possible.

and just doing it the right way. So, yeah. What's your take on selling to private equity and home offices? That's a great question. Are you guys able to cut real quick? Yeah. Okay, cool. What time is it? I just got to make sure. Oh, perfect. We're great. I have till three. I just wanted to make sure that we- we'll wrap up here, Charlotte. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, you're good. I was just making sure I had a z, and I was just like, is that my next meeting?

All right, ask that question again because that's my that's my favorite question. So what's your take on? Private equity a business selling the private equity or even home offices and what is family offices? So family offices They so generally family offices and we've we've like, you know, it's funny. They look at our businesses a lot generally what it is is it's people that they had a lot of wealth or

and they had already built a business or they had made a lot of money from being a corporate executive, whatever it was. They had sold a previous business, owned a ton of real estate. So family offices are, they can be great, but they're extremely choosy. So they do not, and that's the hard part, it's like they get so many people that come to them with, I got this $10 million real estate portfolio or that I could get under contract for this, and they're just like,

It doesn't move the needle for them. So finding their why and what they're actually interested in becomes extremely important. And each one will be a little different. So really you only find that by getting to know them through ⁓ just relationships. And then it's like that one I was telling about that owns that billion dollar business. ⁓ He's basically a family office. And now the benefit of those is they can move extremely quick when they want to. So that's the benefit. Private equity moves...

at the slowest pace that you could ever imagine. then what will happen is, but you can tell when they want something. And the nice part is they will pay more. Private equity is a two-edged sword, right? Because you're going to, now, is there good things like systems that need to get put in businesses? Yes. The danger with private equity, and this is where I would say it's like you gotta make sure, you're, just as much as they're doing due diligence on you, you gotta do it on them. That means you call.

people they've worked with, you call executives they've worked with, you called it and you just see how did they treat the people. Because I'll give you that one family office, the guy I'm talking to right now, he is a business developer rep, told me he goes, you know what? He goes, the one thing cool about him is if there's employees there that maybe shouldn't be there, he'll probably just keep them. Because he realizes some people, especially if he realizes they're a culture person in that company. Because every company is gonna have a couple people where you're like, I wanna get rid of you, but should I?

And if you have to, and I think the question is, you have to ask yourself, okay, you might think, oh, well, they don't really do too much, but what if everybody there just loves them and they're a stability piece for the company? That can save you a lot of headaches, because I know companies like that, where they have that person where it's like they've kind of just been there forever, and their job may be a job that could be $50,000 a year, but they're paying this person $150,000. But it's like, you gotta realize, okay, so let's say you can make an extra hundred grand, can you really?

That's always the question, right? Can you really? Because, ⁓ so I think private equity will always cut those people. I family offices will get like, maybe sometimes those are important. So I think there is a, ⁓ but like I said, not all PE firms are created equal. Because some of them will come in and say, I want to, ⁓ you know, we're gonna help you and basically you just run your company and we'll just help you. Like, and you're getting a bunch of money from them. That does happen. So it's not.

Like I said, there are not all of them. They're all different. mean, there's thousands of PE firms. They're all different. And it's like, I mean, I have a literal call after this. I think I have two more today with PE firms. And it's like people that have looked at stuff or are looking at stuff. ⁓ you get a sense like by where they built their wealth or even where their partners built their wealth of how they're going to run their companies. Like the ones now, I'll say this, people are like, I hate dealing with the large ones. We've sold the large ones. Here's what I'll tell you. They're not as bad to deal with as you think.

They're not, it's like most of those people are just running around like chickens with their heads cut off. And you think it's gonna be all this smooth process. They've done it. They've bought 100 million, 100, or they've bought companies for $50 billion and it's usually the most dysfunctional. It's like, so it's just funny. It shows you because they involve so many people. They have, their teams are so big. I I've never been on a conference call where we 30 lawyers on one conference call. That conference call probably cost the PE from 20 grand.

20 to 30,000, that was one call. We did a refinance on some town homes around in Lincoln with a PE firm and there was probably a good 15 to 20 people that we were talking to at any given point. It took 10 months to close this refinance. Absolutely insane and they're just hot potato. Who are you talking to today? That's literally, I mean it's the funniest thing when you're dealing with them because that's literally what we deal with and it's a, and I just laugh because I'm like, man.

You would think it's the best and brightest, you realize they're also what they're doing, which is important with this day and age. And I'm dealing with some stuff with this right now, ⁓ but on investment, but it's like they're validating everything. there's good parts. mean, that's where a lot of owners though, like I had one the other day where a guy called or maybe it was a month ago, the guy's like, hey, I love this company. I think it's a great company. The industry is good. I have some investors for it.

2 million EBITDA out in Colorado, industry that's not going away. And the owner said, the owner was like, ⁓ or the broker, the question he would ask is, if you go into LOI, because we put an LOI in on it, if he signs it, will you make him do a QOV? Because if you make him do a QOV, he won't do it. Well, then we're not going to do the deal. At that level, you've got to get a quality of earnings done or understand. So it's like, he's going to end up selling probably for...

Let's say it could be a seven, eight million, probably a three and a half time multiple kind of coming, so let's say it's a seven million dollar deal, he'll probably end up getting three or four because he won't want to do those QOVs. So you gotta pick your poison. mean, that's like the whole thing. Private equity firms, you're picking a poison that during due diligence is going to be extremely intense. Could it be better for you? Yes, but it is, I mean, people do not know. I tell people this when we sell, like you have no idea we're going to war.

Not like in a sense of like we're going against them, but in a sense of it's just gonna be a lot, a lot of work. Like it's a lot of work. So just get prepared. And especially if it's going down the P route. Family offices can be a little more chill, but with private equity, they have their time schedules. I mean, they wanna close within 90 days, which I love, but it's like, mean, it's like getting lawyers lined up, all that. And it becomes a lot for us too, especially for the buyers, because we just become like almost every day it's like, dude,

This is so intense. This is so intense. it's like, it is. I think the biggest difference from PE and family offices is objective versus subjective decisions. So true. Especially from what we've dealt with in the larger multifamily space, like the family offices, it could be, they don't like the color of the building and they're just like, nah, we buy red buildings. It's literally, it's the funniest thing. It's exactly like that. be like, yeah, you know, I don't know. This just seems kind of like too big of a headache. We're not going to do it.

It's like, dude, it your guys' profile, everything about it. Yeah, we just don't like it right now. Why? Because they don't need to. They have a billion dollars sitting there, half a billion sitting in the stock market that's in dividend pain to us, where they're getting $40, $30, $40, $50 million a year off of. They don't need to do as much. And so that's the hardest part about dealing with family offices, because you're like, this is the greatest opportunity. fits everything you want, or you say you want. And then you realize that's not what they

Because like I said, it is a lot of work. Like, and even inevitably, it's like some of the family offices I talked to, they're yeah, I ended up running the business. I wasn't planning on that. It's like, you know, and it's like, but I think it's good for them sometimes to get your hands dirty, One thing I've been asking a lot lately, and I'm curious for your thoughts on it, without getting too far into the attorney perspective of it, but what are your beliefs on succession planning and setting up trusts and how to leave stuff for your kids and...

more so on the how do you not spoil your kids? Gosh, I mean, I try to create all my kids to be entrepreneurs if they want to be. Like my second born is a, I mean, that girl is just tenacious. She is selling bracelets, lemonade stands. I told her some stuff, hear she's gonna do this. She just does it. And then my son's like, hey, I wanna do a business plan, but he's more thought out. Well, how do I go to people's doors? My daughter's like.

I'll just go, I'll just do it. So I can just see that in her, but she wants to be a doctor, but she's 12. And then my son, I'm like, okay, you have such a, like you wanna learn, you wanna make sure it's correct, ⁓ but I think there is a level where it's like, and I'm teaching them that, like it's hard because like we, there's years where it's like, right, like, you know, last couple years, it's like we've done well, and I'm like, it's like, I don't just wanna buy them stuff. So my son wants $100 basketball right now. But I'm like, hey.

Why I'm like one of the things we talked about is when you figure out how to start making payments for your donations that you're giving feed the hungry or whatever it is when you figure out all these things and you come and like and here's some ideas I've given you it's like then we can talk about getting that basketball so it's like I'm trying to keep it's like I want my kids to learn like there's a persevering factor of life I just I just believe the two most I told my daughters as I said the number two the number one questions I like when you're when your boyfriends come to me and ask me for marriage I'm gonna look in the eye and I'm gonna say

Is this person teachable, humble, and can they persevere? Those are the only three, I mean basically are they gritty. But I'm gonna look at those and if I have a check in any of those areas, I'm gonna be like, I gotta see some more. Because there is a, and I want my kids to live like that. Because it's like, I just know it's like, you're going to get hit one way or the other. I've dealt with guys who have been successful since day one in business. And they always made money.

and then something happens in life that throws them for a curveball and they do not know how to handle it and they go off the deep end. I literally. I've seen that happen to multiple people and it's like, well, what happens? Well, everything seemed like they could control everything. You have to learn how to not be in control. So anyway, I think that's a huge, I think for my kids, I try to teach them this, you can't control everything. There's uncontrollables. How's your attitude gonna be? How are you gonna respond? All right, you were on the bench this basketball game. What are you gonna do about it?

control the controllables. The only things you can control, how hard you're gonna work, how you're gonna treat your coach, how you're gonna treat the players on your team, are you gonna encourage them. These are the things that I'm like instilling in my kids and if they don't do that, I ground them. I mean, I'm not like a jerk, but it's like we care about attitude in our house. I don't care if you make mistakes. That does not matter to me at all. It's like, I care about how you're gonna respond. Like my wife and I are big into response. So it's like, I just think it's dangerous to just give your kids everything, but it's like, am I gonna make my kids?

Oh, they're gonna have to earn it like old school. No, like they're gonna, there's gonna be parts, but I'm gonna, I mean, I wanna invest in my kids. I wanna see them do what they love. And if I can help them with that, but I'm also not gonna be an idiot and just be like, all right, whatever you wanna do, I'll just throw money at, I mean, the amount of people I know that do that. I was just talking to a guy before this about that. I mean, literally like about his son took over the business when his father died. And his son was telling, like talks to the city, he loves to talk about how much his new.

new plane or what he's doing with that and his, I just bought this thousand dollar this and 10, and it's like, and these employees are like, we're the ones working our butts off. Not that it matters, it's their business, they can do what they want, but it's like the guy was so out of touch with reality, most employees left, he's gonna probably, I mean, so you think about that, it's like, there's a level of being out of touch. I just never wanna have my kids do that. So I think that's so important to, yes, it's like give your kids a leg up, right? It's like, why wouldn't you wanna help them with that?

But I think also it's like, no, it's like we have to, there's a level where we're gonna make sure like you're ready for that too. Testing the readiness, right? Readiness assessments. I always said about attitude. That's one thing my wife has been preaching to our kids and just attitude and effort. Everything is attitude and effort. If you walk into our office right now, we a big whiteboard that says attitude and effort. So she talks to the employees the same way she talks to our kids, which tells you a lot about employees sometimes.

Yeah, no, no, it's it's true. It's like you have to sometimes have those conversations. It's hard like I mean, you're right It's like those are that's called that's called investing in people like right? What's what's the easiest thing to do right now in America? It's like take out your phone and veg out and just be in distraction land What if we actually like cared and said, you know what I like for me? It's hard. It's like at night I get a lot of things it's like but I try it's like I'm trying to get better and I'm gonna even I'm gonna not just try I'm gonna keep getting better

at, I'm gonna put my phone up for some time, because I wanna give my family attention. I can return stuff, I can always send texts back, but it's like, are, but it's like, don't, like, my kids are only young for so long, you know? So it's like, I want them to gain that, like, where it's like, man, they felt like their dad is for them, he cared for them, and they're gonna know I'm in their corner. And I want people to know that in business, too. It's like, shoot, when you're going through hard things, call me. Like, I will, because there's like, there's a level where it's like, I'm not too naive to think it couldn't happen to any of us.

I mean, I was telling him before, but I'm dealing with that with a large, large business in Omaha right now where it's hard to believe. And it's like, but guess what? What do people need? Even if they were completely guilty of everything that's true, it's like people need people in their corner. Like I'm not gonna get to the end of life and be like, I'm so happy I wasn't in that person's corner. So it's like, that's something I wanna be like much more of like, and with my kids, with people I'm around, it's like, how do you just encourage people?

I've sat down with so many business guys who are like, you'll see how hard it's going to be. you'll see this. And I'm like, I don't know. I've been through a lot. I don't agree with you. It doesn't mean it's easy. But my mind won't go there because everything can happen. Things can change in a dime. It's like in business and anything. And if you keep that option and people see that attitude, people will care and they'll want to do business with you. And you'll have things pop to you that you never imagined.

I've had that happen, like this year has been crazy. I've had two of those situations. Now our largest deal that we're working on right now was for me cold calling an owner. Because I asked him, I how many people actually do this and then come down and meet with you? He's like, not very many. I mean, it's just amazing. So it's like, we always think these people are unaccessible. They're not. If you're humble and you come with an approach of, I don't know everything, and what have you done?

I haven't done that much, but it's like, here's, you can talk to people I've worked with. I mean, you can see how I've treated people. It's like, they'll generally like people can read through that pretty quickly. Awesome. Well, I know you got to get out of here, but ⁓ what would you leave people? If they're searching for freedom, they want to, they want to get into business. ⁓ ETA. I mean, I think you got it. think number one, it's like kill fear, kill fear before it kills you, right? Kill. Yeah. I like that. Kill fear before fear kills you.

And it's like, if you don't do that, you will, it's like, you're gonna go, you're gonna get to the end of life and say, if? Because I mean, let's play out a scenario. Let's say you go buy a business at 40 years old. Well, I gotta retire, I have to have this at 65. Okay, let's say you lose everything. Let's say at 50 years old, you have to build back up. Okay, then build back up. Like, get to, like, because you don't know what's gonna happen. You have 15, 20 years left.

It's like, you're gonna, it's like go do those things. You're gonna have, you don't know what your kids are gonna end up doing, how they're gonna support you. It's like, I think if you take risks and people can see that, it's like, you're gonna, and you treat people the right way along the way, even if you lose everything, it's like, you'll be okay. Like, you'll have opportunities. Now, if you do it unethically and you lose stuff because you were stealing, yeah, you might be done for a I mean, not life, but you know what I'm saying. You might have some challenges to face, but if you treat people well along the way.

And even if you do fail, it's like, you'd be surprised. Like these guys, they'll fight back and people will come back. And I think that's the thing is like, I think the number one thing is people, everybody's gonna wanna doubt, right? Everybody's gonna wanna like, oh, like be a naysayer. And that's where it's like, have to have a strong conviction of what you're supposed to do. So I'd say pray about it. If you're supposed to do it, do it. Like, and don't think too much into, I think we always wanna know how and the what and the why and this and this. It's like, just do it.

I mean, there's a level where it just comes down to pull the trigger. But I think the number one thing to pull that trigger, kill fear before fear kills you. Because if you don't, you will, like, and I would say that in everything in life, but kill fear. I that's gonna be the headline for this episode. I got one final question. Your retirement philosophy, is it dividends as a cash flow machine or build the cell?

I'm leaning towards, it's funny, I would have always said build to sell. And I'm leaning a lot more towards probably just dividends and starting to make because I've always taken risks. So I say, mean some of the stuff you gotta be here, like my personality's high risk. My wife, she loves me, she's cool with it. I don't know how and I know it's like, I mean it's wild because we've been through hard things. Like we lost 100 grand in a deal where we had no money and I had to flip homes to get us out of that. I mean that was, that was.

10 years ago. mean, so it's like, there's been, there's been a lot of hard stuff we've had to walk through. We've walked through business partners going off the deep end. I mean, we've walked through everything. And ⁓ her parents dying, I mean, crazy stuff. And I think, I used to always think it's like, I'm gonna build something up, sell it, cause I see it and I see how it's done and it's really real. Like that's the part. And it's it right off in the sunset? And it is, it's crazy. Like people think, it's gotta be so hard. Well, no, it's just.

actually doing it. It's just like saying like it's listening to Alex from Ozzie. It's like, all right, hey, we're to buy this business. All right. Well, I'm to buy this. Hey, not everything's perfect. I'm going to go buy another. I'm going to go buy. I that's what we talked about. It's like, that's just what people start doing. And it's crazy. Like once you start doing that, you also realize, man, there's talented people on. I'll put this person here. I'll put this person here. Person here. It's like if you don't care. But it's like, I think more and more like for me, ⁓ I think what I'm realizing about myself is I turn 40. It's like I always said, it's funny.

I always thought I was gonna do these roll-ups and do all these things, but we still might. But it's like, the more and more I'm realizing about myself, it's like, I care about people's hearts being transformed more than probably that at this point. So it's like, will I keep taking risks and swinging? Probably to some extent, but I think part of it will be like, getting some real estate, getting some, having those dividends kicking off. you know, because when you're investing in stuff, you have a lot of just...

people calling you and you know, it's like trying to figure out things. It's a time, it becomes a lot of time. So, think more and more I'll probably lean towards that. But who knows? I'm gonna stay flexible. I don't wanna ever make vows on any of it because you see something that could be a great opportunity and it's like, it's a, you gotta, you know, and if there's a yes in your, I'm gonna say a yes in your soul and a yes in your spirit, it's like then you gotta pursue that a little bit. think a lot of people, we get those.

and we don't always, you know, it's like we're kinda like we know we should do something and ⁓ you know we don't. I always joke around with people, was like if you come around me and you have a question in your life of should you pull the trigger and you feel like you should and you don't, you're probably gonna end up losing your job. Not because of me, it's weird. It happens to all these people I do stuff with. they'll like be the guy, and it's so cool because I'm like, they'll be like yeah I met with you and you I was scared to buy that business and I end up losing my job and.

It was the worst thing ever, but then it ended up being the best thing ever. It's like, I don't know, God has a weird way of getting us where he wants to get us. So I think, yeah, it's like, if you start feeling that and you're, if you start feeling like you're supposed to do something else, that's why I would say make the change, like get planning, get ready to plan for that change because it's going to happen. If you know it is like, and you know you're supposed to do it, and I think God has a way of being funny and getting us there. So. Perfect. Well, I appreciate it, Paul. Yeah.

We'll have to do it again. Absolutely. Thank you, Ron. Thank you, Tanner. Appreciate y'all.