She Diaries

Kathryn Craft's Story Part 2: A Police Standoff, Suicide Loss, and Choosing Life

• Bright Sky House • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In Part 2 of Kathryn Craft’s story, she shares an intense and transformative moment: the police standoff that ended with suicide loss. In those fragile hours—including waiting, hard decisions, and hearing the news—she understood what it means to grieve a spouse in real time.

Returning home with her children, Kathryn faced bereavement, emotional trauma, and financial secrets—all shadowed by unspoken stigma around mental health crises.

Yet, in the quiet aftermath, she forged a powerful mantra: “choose this day.” It’s one of those stories of resilience—a testament to how choosing life can lead to starting over, rebuilding even when everything feels broken.

By bravely sharing her journey, Kathryn contributes to suicide prevention, reminding us that connection, honesty, and mental health awareness can light a path through heartbreak.

Content Warning

This podcast includes real stories of suicide loss. Some episodes may reference the method of suicide and include emotionally intense or uncomfortable descriptions. We understand how sensitive this content is, and we carefully edit each episode to honor and respect both our guests and listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, please call or text 988 or visit 988lifeline.org for free, 24/7 support. Please take care while listening—pause if you need to. You are not alone.

Takeaways

  • The power of stories of resilience in the darkest hours
  • Learning what it means to grieve a spouse—with raw honesty
  • Navigating bereavement and haunting financial revelations
  • Challenging the stigma around trauma and mental health
  • Her quiet vow to “choose this day”—a step toward starting over
  • How shared testimony can meaningfully support suicide prevention

About She Diaries

In She Diaries, women who have lost their husbands to suicide bravely share their stories of strength while navigating the unimaginable journey of widowhood. Through candid interviews, the podcast explores their lives before the tragedy, moments that changed everything, the web of grief, and the hard-earned lessons of overcoming deep loss. These powerful stories shed light on the strength and courage it takes to move forward.

Produced by Bright Sky House — bringing hidden stories to light.

Mental Health Resources

  • 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Call or text 988 for free, 24/7, confidential support for mental health crises, suicidal thoughts, or emotional distress.
  • Find a Therapist: Search for licensed therapists near you through directories like Psychology Today, TherapyDen, or Mental Health Match.
  • Join a Support Group: Connect with others through peer-led or professionally facilitated support groups via NAMI or GriefShare.

Stay Connected with She Diaries

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LinkedIn: Bright Sky House

If you have questions or would like to follow-up with any of our guests, reach out to Hello@BrightSkyHouse.com.

She Diaries is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Hi, I'm Krista Greig, your host for She Diaries, a podcast sharing the real unfiltered stories of women who've lost their husbands to suicide. It's raw, it's honest, and it's about finding your way through the unthinkable. Before we get to the show, please know this podcast includes real stories of suicide loss, and is not for little ears. Some episodes may reference the method of suicide and include emotionally intense or uncomfortable descriptions. We understand how sensitive this content is and carefully edit each episode to honor and respect both our guests and listeners. If you or someone you love is struggling, call or text 988 or visit 988lifeline.org. You're not alone. Please take care while listening. Pause if you need to. and you can find links to additional mental health resources in our show notes. Thank you for listening. So, bye. They took me next and in the car I said, why couldn't we just, why couldn't I go with my kids? Why did you have to separate us? And they said, because when someone loses their regard for their own life, all bets are off as to whether they'll honor any life. And we were trying to minimize the damage. That's where we ended part one of Kathryn Kraft's story. If you haven't listened to part one, pause here and please go back. That first episode is critical to understand how everything led to this moment. And part two begins in the middle of that police standoff. Kathryn, her children, and her parents are transported to safety. The farmhouse is surrounded by first responders, and time begins to tick by. with no clear outcome and the sun begins to set. Officers begin preparations to use Mace to see if they can get Ron out of where he is hiding. And Catherine, she is suspended in the unknown. This is the chapter where her phrase, choose this day was born. It is a quiet, powerful promise to keep going, even in the face of unimaginable loss. Thank you for listening and here is the rest of Catherine Craft's story. through this entire process. These first responders are trained and have experienced the situation before. However, you have the experience of wrong. You know him very deeply, but this is also your first time experiencing the situation. Did it feel like an ongoing internal conflict of what their expertise was saying versus what... You knew of Ron, but maybe it wasn't the Ron you knew anymore. appreciate that perspective. That's interesting. Actually, uh the police used me oh because I knew him. So they worked very much with you. They weren't trying to take over the situation and not regard you and your experience and your knowledge. Yeah, they didn't disregard me. mean, they definitely had a plan for a huge amount of special emergency response troops arrived from Harrisburg, the state capital, and uh set up. had, I didn't know what it looked like until I saw the paper the next day, but they have huge body shields and helmets and so much ammo strapped to their bodies, pockets bulging with it. And so where they took us at first was just to an ambulance that was already like about an eighth of a mile away in a field. And my neighbor was in there. I had no idea they had evacuated my neighbor from the house that was where the police cars were coming. My elderly male neighbor, he looked so hopeless sitting there on the bench in the ambulance. And uh so they put us all in there. Obviously they wanted an ambulance on hand in case something went wrong. And they took us a mile away from my house to a fire company. And there was a hall on the second floor. And so they put us in there. The police interviewed both of my sons. What was your father like? ah Did he ever hit you? Was he drunk all the time? And of course the answer, no, he didn't hit us, no. ah He wasn't drunk all the time. And I heard my one son say, my younger son say, uh my dad ah makes soccer games with me in the side yard. It's so much fun. ah He did that once. But my sons already sensed they needed to hold on to something. So, already made it a pattern. He did it once and I know that because I told him, look, I am going to divorce you. This is after the first suicide and before the second, the first attempt and the second. And I said, you need... to get a relationship with the boys because the courts are going to do and every other weekend thing, I will get a sole custody, but I will let you see them. But I need to know that you're going to have a relationship with them and that you can be, uh I need to give them a chance to grow up. I didn't think of it yet as, I didn't think of him yet as hopelessly addicted. I just didn't. I had tried to get him to go to marriage counseling. No. I tried to get him to go to individual counseling. No. I tried to get him to go to AA. He said, why would I do that? They're just going to tell me everything I do is wrong. And I was like, wow. So in a way, it was like, You can take the horse to water, but you can't make him drink soda thing. um Anyway, uh they interviewed me. told them about the commitment six weeks prior and uh they set up a perimeter and aimed their sniper rifles at him. And of the two... the two kinds of helpers that day whose uh job occupations I found the oddest. The first was the 911 operator. He saw us until he said, okay, he was with us. He was with us, he was with us, talking the whole time. And then he said, okay, a police, you're gonna start to see across the street some people skulking behind trees. Those are policemen. They're playing close so as not to draw attention to themselves. uh I could see they had guns in their hands. They're looking for my husband. It was a manhunt at that point. And he said, okay, now a uniformed police officer is going to be knocking at your door right now. You're safe. You can go down there. They've looked all around. I went down and opened the door to him and he took the phone from me and he said, This is officer so-and-so, badge number so-and-so. We're taking over the operation from here." And he just hung up. And I thought, what would it be like to be that 911 operator? You should put a 911 operator on your puck. Gosh, that's one of the most stressful. That in like traffic control, I can only imagine the most stressful job. Yeah, like he doesn't know the end of the story. Yeah. Yeah, just to be so deeply emotionally ingrained in saving you and helping the situation, immediately. Yeah, and the other weird occupation is the snipers. I did see the movie American Sniper with Bradley Cooper on Did you see that? So weird, like it's so mechanical. Like he gets a call from his wife, what do you want for dinner tonight? And he goes, I don't know how long I'm going to be. And you go ahead and eat. I'll be home when I get home. He's just snapping a sniper rifle together out of a uh kit bag or whatever and lining up. I don't know. Well, they did end up shooting at my husband, but it was Mace. That's right. So, we get him to come out of the building that they eventually found him in. As everything's unfolding, there is a part in the book, which I am, I really want to know if you actually did this or not, because I just, it was just awesome. um Ronnie, the character Ronnie was sitting in that fire station and she kept getting so upset because they kept getting. how old he was wrong on the news. And so in just anger and frustration and at that time, a lot of media requests for interviews are coming in, which of course you're not going to give an interview in this moment, but she just decided I'm calling a news station. She called, she said, if you're going to report it, at least get his age right, gave him the age and hung up. How did you come up with that scene or? I hate to disappoint you, Krista. I love that scene though. However, the reporting the next day in various papers had his age all over the place. And so that was a, I can fix this in retrospect. That is my little, at least get his age. I always get it like the one, like the one fact that I'm sure you all have access to. ah What was it like seeing this unfold and you're just getting information on your home, your property, your husband. It's so, so deeply personal and you're just watching this unfold and you have no control over what's being said on TV, in the papers. the strategies that are happening on the ground and you're just having to sit and wait. Can you describe that? was very, very worried about the horses. They were out, but they hadn't been fed, meaning they hadn't gotten grain. And I said, can you just throw them some hay? There was a bale right inside the barn. No, we're not going to put people at risk so that your horse can eat. But colic is a real thing. It can kill a horse. And I'm just trying to save lives as well. Lives that are innocent lives at this point. They shouldn't have to pay. And what else? They were constantly asking me like for a map of the property, where are their light switches, uh things like that, because it was going to start to get dark. And they told me that's when the situation is going to get much more dangerous because he can look out and we can't see in. uh So they wanted to bring it to an end. And that's when they asked me, we have permission to break your windows because we want to shoot Mason. And I said, why? And they said, because he seems to still be drinking. We've been talking to him over a bullhorn. We've been calling the shop phone from the one in your office. Those were two different lines. And he, uh He sounds like he's very drunk, so we assume that he's been drinking all day, but we're hoping to trigger his reflex to breathe fresh air. But we have to warn you, people who are very, very high or who are very, very drunk sometimes don't even perceive that the mace is in the room. He may not come out. but we feel this is our best chance. mean, who am I? I'm talking to the experts, right? And I, yeah, you can break my windows. You really think this is our best chance? Yes, because it's going to get more dangerous. As you said, your animals haven't been fed all day and uh we just need to bring this to a close. So. ah I said yes. They didn't actually need my permission to shoot the mason there. That was their uh professional opinion and they were going to do that. They needed my permission to break the windows. I thought this was an interesting detail. is interesting. break the windows. I'm just, reflecting right now on all of, so for me and my husband in our biohazard business, all of the tear gas jobs that we've done and cleaning up after tear gas. No one's ever said that, that they needed permission to just blow the canisters in and break the wind. I don't know. I know I'm going to go back to some law enforcement officers and ask about this. Like, what is, what is that line in the sand for what you can and can't do on a property in an emergency situation? Yeah, I mean, I assume they shot things in kind of bazooka-like or that they were, you know, like a shotgun pellet full of it or whatever. initially they tilt it up so it goes into the ceiling and then it crashes down so it goes from top down and that way they're not actually aiming and accidentally hitting somebody but it's it's positioned so it goes vertical up into the building. That's interesting. We had one big, it's a pink dye splatter ah on the ceiling and one high on the wall. And then about a half hour later, ah the corporate in charge of the whole thing. This was interesting. Earlier in the day, ah my neighbor across the street who wasn't able to get home. because of the barricade, said she was going to go to her mother's house and do I want her to take the boys? Do the police need them anymore or can I take the boys? So she took the boys to her mom's house. ah And... But in that moment, while she's talking to me, her brother-in-law had just killed himself right around the time of Ron's commitment because his wife was going to leave him. That sounds familiar. And uh then my mother, her father had died by suicide and uh the corporal in charge of the whole operation, uh her dad had died by suicide. So here are all these people holding together waiting to know the outcome. And frankly, Krista, I didn't know what to hope for. As they're telling me, go to Reading, file for protection from abuse order. Well, I saw how long it took the police to come. We're 45 minutes away. Any mayhem could happen between a threat and harm to me or my sons. I didn't know where hope lay in that regard. And yet I certainly don't want him to die. I'm a diehard optimist. I want him to have the opportunity to heal. And he kept saying, I'll go into rehab if you're there for me on the other side. And I said, no, I'm sorry. You would have had many chances to do this. It's too late now. Always has the strings attached with what he to string you along and to keep you. And at some point, no one's got to want it more than you got to want it for yourself. And so if he, he doesn't want it for himself, if he doesn't want to heal for himself, if he make promises that he probably can't keep and just to be able to keep you around, um it's never going to work. And through all of this, It sounds like you were getting messages from people and you at least had some support and you had internal gut instincts to like, but as much as I want him to be a happy, thriving person, right now I have to put myself first and put my boys first. And that's a very hard thing to do in a very hard position to be in, I'm sure. and quite a turnaround for Ron since I had obviously been guilty of much codependent hate in my effort to stay in the marriage. I knew what the hard line was. He wasn't going to do it, so therefore I had to. It was just the way it was. This was a weird detail, but around 5.30 in the evening um is when they shot the mason and a cook at the fire company came up and said, you guys have been here all day. Do you want something to eat? And we're like, like what? I don't know what. He says, just whatever you want. uh I could give you a hamburger, hot dogs, spaghetti. You know, I cook for the fire guys downstairs all the time. And so my parents and I each ordered a hamburger and it just felt so weird. uh It was so weird. But before the food came, the corporal came in and she was with a police officer and another guy who was kind of dressed in whites. And um she says, so we have news. And I don't know, I perked up. It was weird. I guess because all that high tension waiting all day. you know, because I'm pins and needles. If he dies, this is all over. And we have the freedom to heal. eh I lose my partner, the man I fell in love with, the father of my kids. If it's not over, I guess I have to go to the courthouse in the morning and I guess I have to go home to him. I don't know why. I don't know what's going on here. They did say at one point that because of this whole thing, they weren't going to charge him with turning a gun on an officer. At one point, they found him in the workshop and he turned the gun on him and the guy backed away. He said, look, just trying to help you out here. He put his gun down. He backed out of the building. He said, listen, just come towards us. I think he probably backed completely away. And then someone over the bullhorn said, Mr. Williams, understand there's extenuating circumstances. We won't charge you with the crime, uh but uh you need to come out and put the weapon down." they said very exactly what to do, and he wouldn't do it. So anyway, um she comes in, or now late in the night, and she says, have news, and she says, We have news. She said it twice. And then she said, he did it. He shot himself and he's dead. And I collapsed to the ground. I'm sobbing and not the policeman, but the man who was dressed kind of in scrubs or something. I don't know. This is how I remember it. That could be, he may have been in a different kind of uniform. He put his hand on my shoulder and I looked up at him just because I didn't expect to be touched right then. um the corporal said, this is so and so, he's an EMT. And I said, did you see him? Were you with him? Did you try to resuscitate him or what? And this is the line that always makes me fall apart. And it's in the book. Corporal said. No, he's an EMT. He's here for you. No one had ever been there for me. And it just kind of broke me apart, I don't know, hearing that. And then I realized there were people there for me all day. And I don't think my parents wanted to be there in the least, but they were stoic about it. So then I had to go get my kids. Yeah. I said, can I go get my kids? I need to be with my kids. And they said, no, the coroner's at the house. He's going to need to talk to you. And that was when I had that weird moment I had shared with you before that I go to the door of my own house and walk in. And the coroner comes forward and greets me with his hand extended and says, I'm so and so, you must be the widow. It broke my heart reading that in the book. And oh, so this is the other thing. I came out of the house and looked towards the shop because I knew that's where it had happened. And I saw the back of his head and his, he had a lined jean jacket on that had a tan corduroy collar. It's one he wore all the time. So I knew it was him, uh even though he was facing away. And right then, these people came up the driveway, friends from the horseback community. And they said, ah we tried to come up when we heard there was a problem at the Williams farm earlier, but we got stopped by the barricade and they've opened the barricade now, my God, what's going on? And like anybody who knew Ron just couldn't believe it. Like they felt like this came out of the blue. They didn't know he drank to excess anyway. And right then I saw movement over by the shop and it was backlit because it's dark and the light was coming from the shop. I saw someone coming out in a gas mask and because the mace... Yeah, so it would from it months later. They said there's... envelopes uh addressed to you on the desk in there. But they told me that later. What I saw right then was four people picking up my dead husband and laying him in a body bag and zipping it up. And let me tell you, that is an intense thing to see. And I remember my friends trying to create a human wall saying, you don't need to see this. And I said, no, I have to see this because it's just so hard to believe. The whole thing was so hard to believe that it happened. And even writing about it, you know? It makes it more real in a way, but I'd been so happy for so long. I was going to write an article for a women's magazine. I had already drafted it about, because the first 10 years, we just sailed through them and we were so happy and we were doing the renovation. We were building something together, building a life, creating a property just like, you know, that heaven. that we wanted to raise the boys in. So I had many tips that I was gonna give these women and now look what happened five years later. Like, what? It was just so surreal. I can't even imagine. And there's a point where in our pre-conversation, you said the emergency was no longer ours and you saw another ambulance drive by that had nothing to do with you. And you had to also face that this was not, you were still living this and this was still a very raw and fresh moment for you, but emergency responders in the world was already moving on. What was that dichotomy like? It was strange because that happened when we were burying Ron. just right over where they had just shoveled over, hit the urn with his ashes. And there we are standing in the graveyard and we're going by and I just thought, wow, you know, we are not the only ones. We have not been singled out. I even felt that at a time like, yeah, I know you're creating this amazing community through these stories, which is really cool. I was already aware that I was part of a club that I never wanted to join. Very shortly, I was so lucky, Krista, because from the AA people I talked to after uh Ron's first commitment to the therapist I saw, to his psychiatrist, to uh my cousin who is an emergency first responder. a psychologist who goes to natural disasters and stuff. And he came right over the next day and all of them said, this is not on you. And it's so easy to feel guilty, especially if you told your husband, I'm going to leave you. And this is his response. It looks to all the world like I killed him. My next husband was so brave because my marital resume did not look so rosy, you know. He was very brave to enter into this world. But a woman who I'd never met before shows up like two days later with his huge basket of teas and some fresh baked muffins. And I said, and you are. And she says, my name is Lois and I live over the hill. So I heard what was happening. with the standoff and everything. um my husband, I found him in our bar. So I know something of what you're going through. And she just sat down and seemed so normal. Like everything, like surreal is the only word I can think of, you know? Like we're still in shock. The trauma is jangling through my entire soul. And here's this woman with tea and crumpets, you know? It was, she was amazing, but to take it upon herself to reach out that way, was really, it was really so comforting and wonderful of her. And certainly I've done that for other people over the years as well. What was recovery like from the moment you had to tell your boys to making the decision to continue raising them and living on the farm versus relocating? The boys were very quiet while I was telling them. we had just lost a cat to a tumor on his nose that if we learned then that if a cat can't smell food, it won't eat. And so they had gone out with me to pet the cat. We kept it in the workshop. Ron is still alive at this point. And every day it was happy. to receive our cuddles. And I sort of created a parallel with what was going on with Ron. I don't know. It just occurred to me that there was, this is the writerly mind. There's always a metaphor you can use. So I said, it's kind of like your dad. You know he hasn't been doing well. And he, I think, just like the cat, Its spirit was slowly leaving its body and it couldn't get up and it couldn't move and it couldn't really, but it was happy to see us every day. And I feel like your dad was happy to see us every day. But finally his spirit had just separated from his body and he didn't know what to do. And it was just sort of like getting rid of the rest of himself that couldn't function without his spirit. Yeah. And, um, They seemed to understand that. And um we all had therapy, of course. uh the one thing that one day I just woke up and realized, you know, when I could start thinking again, let me tell you, that took about three months. couldn't function much at all. uh But once I could, but I was going through the motions. You know, I went for a walk each day. I took care of the animals. I took care of my boys. I made sure to talk to the teachers, let them know what was going on. Please let me know if there's any problems, that sort of thing. But once I guess my higher order of thinking came, one day I woke up and I thought, know, life sucks right now. but I'm choosing to live it. And then I thought, wow, one day Ron woke up and thought, I'm choosing not to live this day. And that made me think back in my own case, not only am I choosing this day, but what am I going to do with its precious moments? And that is what's behind the hashtag choose this day that I've put in every single. book I've signed. I had the idea since it was coming out on May 5th, which is right after May Day. May Day has this strange dual meaning, Like May Day, May Day, May Day, help us, help us. It's an emergency. Or May Day, which is the Tra La, it's spring, and the pagan celebration of renewal. And I thought, how could I make use of those two meanings? So now it's May, this happened in October, so many months have passed. And, no, no, sorry, many years have passed. Yeah, you took 17 years later is when you wrote the skeleton of the book. A very long time later. But it wasn't near the anniversary, which sort of accosted me every year, frankly. Even if I, even once I started to forget about the date or to be worrying about anticipated, like the light would come in on a certain slant in October and that smell, spicy smell of dried leaves in the air. And ah you just want to bite into a crisp apple. I love that time of year. And so. It was just so weird that on this gorgeous, gorgeous day, he decided not to live it. So he must have been in some sort of extreme psychic pain. You can only imagine. Yeah. He thought he was helping us because he figured I would get the money that his mom had left him. That's what was in the envelope in the shop. As a matter of fact, I took the next day. deep breath outside, ran into the shop, grabbed the stack of envelopes, ran out. There was a lot, a lot of blood and they had put shavings from his woodworking on top of it. I didn't perceive that it was blood. So I'm running out and I slid across this huge puddle in my shoes and uh I went, and in comes all the mace. So I don't even know how long I retched out in the courtyard um until I could breathe again. It was really, really awful. So I can't even imagine what it had been like for him in the enclosed space other than the broken windows. The door was wide open for me. But anyways, when was his suicide note, his second one detailing his burial? wishes and ah one was a list of credit cards um that I would have to pay off. There were 26. And again, I didn't know some of those existed. He was a, what do call credit card gambler? know, he would like, uh he'd get zero percent. They want to give me another credit card. Okay. I'll transfer this huge balance onto this one. Try to pay it off, you know, while it's still 0 % and no one's after me. I didn't realize that's what he was doing, but then I learned. over Christmas after the suicide, I had to cancel all them. And I'm hanging on the line for a long time at each one. And They tried to say, oh, we can give you one in your name. Like, no. I've only ever had one credit card because I'm never going to get in that problem. And every time I'm going through Sears and Roebuck and they say, hey, if you sign up for a credit card today, you can get this free thing or whatever. And I say, no, thank you. And I walk out, oh, but don't you see, we have a great... If they bother me twice, them the whole frickin' story. Make them squirm and listen to it. Because there are people who should not have credit cards and clearly my husband was moneying them. So, Anyway. um And then you guys ended up living on the farm until your boys were old enough. I especially after seeing that headline the next week, I thought, my boys have to see. I mean, it does not hurt them to realize Ron could have killed us if he wanted to. He absolutely could have. He wanted to end his life. He did not want to end our lives. And you know what, guys? This farm, we've always loved it. I, it's as good a place to stay as any. can't outrun this. Even if we moved to a new school district, people are going to find out. And okay, did you hear why he moved here and all of that kind of stuff. And, um, so I said, I don't want to move. Are you okay with that? Yes. Because who wants to deal, who wants to stage? their lives or their house, the house that we, our fingerprints were all over that house. Who wants to stage it with someone else's furniture so that they can sell it? Right at this time of trauma, the boys needed routine. But one thing my trauma psychologist cousin told me was to allow the boys to grieve in their own ways and don't be surprised. It won't be the same way. was here. Yeah. The younger one needed to go to school the next day. He needed to know life was not over. He needed to see his friends. And the other one, the 10-year-old was not ready to go back. He needed more time. They were both in a gifted program at school. So the 10-year-old's gifted class was going on a field trip. So there'll be a Baltimore aquarium and my son thought that would be the perfect time to get back into the swing of things. It was a smaller group of people. was kids who think like he thinks, you know? So that's what he did. And as I said, I had therapy, then the younger one had therapy, then the older one had therapy because over time things emerged that... maybe were things they thought they were doing to protect themselves, but really were keeping them from moving on and really facing down what was going on. So I had a really good child therapist. It was play therapy. It was role therapy. Like, my gosh, this one blew my mind. It was a session where all three of us were in there and she had us change identities. So. I was my oldest, my oldest was the youngest, the youngest was me. However, you know, I may have just said that all wrong, but you know what I mean? You always had to put yourselves in each other's shoes, it sounds like, and try to role play and understand how each other was feeling. Powerful. it was amazing. Even at eight and 10. I think my older son wasn't me. I think he was my younger son. And I asked him as the youngest son, Hey, go get that toy upstairs. I think we should show mom. It's so cool. And the oldest son acting as the youngest son said, no, I can't go up there by myself. You come with me. We realized what a burden that had become and that he needed to feel safe and he didn't feel safe. you know, so was a little things like that we learned about each other doing it that was really very helpful. And we talked about it all the time, all the time. We never stopped. At one point, one of the sons said, ma, everything isn't about the suicide, you know? And I was like, but it could be. Let's just explore it, you know, and if it's not, and if you convince me it's not, great. We can do other kind of problem solving, but um let's just think maybe it could be, because trauma is sneaky that way, I told them. You know, it can come out, it can find cracks in your psyche and then just suddenly emerge and then like, wow, and I just want to make sure you're all right. You were open to getting them resources, getting them help, actively participating as a family, and you knew to do that to help them work through some of that, not hide it. oddly, got that from uh my family moved from Syracuse, New York to Baltimore, Maryland when I was going into sixth grade. And it was so traumatic for all of us. What I didn't know that it was super traumatic for my mother as well. She loved where we used to live, but she couldn't help us. She never talked to us about it. She never had, know, how can we problem solve here? What are some strategies you could use to meet some new people today. Let's all try to meet someone new. Like that would be me. But she had so much trauma from her background and her father's suicide that she had never talked about and just tamped it down. And she didn't have the wherewithal to do that. So of course, we all suffered from that in various ways. I think generational trauma is a very real thing. And I just, to the extent possible, I just wanted to turn around and say, it stops here. So the last question I have for you, and this is a quote that I wrote down that you said, death is the price we pay for living and grief is the price we pay for loving. Tell me more about this statement and how it helps reframe things for your life. have to go back to the cat story. I knew the end was coming. So the day before the boys got up in the morning, I had dug a hole ah up where our little unmarked graveyard is. I said, okay, I'm going to have to bury her now. I was holding her in my arms and my youngest said, mom, very serious face. He had the roundest, sweetest face. He goes, mom. all carrier. And I handed her over and she's draped over his skinny little arms and he carried her up to the top of the hill where we buried her. And um I just thank God for that moment right at the time. So I explained to them that her spirit was free, that we're just burying the bones. They learned that then. My guess is their loss of Ron was maybe 20 % grief and 80 % trauma. Yeah. had been separating from them and glomming onto me more. He did all the wrong things like, know how when you get a divorce you're not supposed to say to your kids, convince your mother to stay with me, you know. my gosh. We're definitely putting them in the middle of the situation. And so, you know, they would come talk to me and I'd apologize on his behalf. He doesn't know what he's doing right now. He's not thinking clearly. And I feel that it was a whirlpool of shame, depression, financial issues, and alcoholism that just created this swirl and this downward pull on him. My youngest son has convinced himself that it was financial first. So it was interesting, their college applications both had something to do with the suicide. And my youngest said, I want to be an engineer because I'm strong in math and science and because the world will always need engineers. And my father... killed himself and he did it because he sunk our family into financial distress and engineers can make good money and I'll never be in that position. So there was that, but my older son, um he wrote in his college essay, I don't think my father's life mattered enough. He didn't have much a relationship with me. And life just went on. Life just went on without him. And I want to be an opera singer because I want to move people. They will not forget me after they've heard me sing. And this is how I made him matter. And there's a picture you sent me of you and your boys celebrating the publication of the book. How did you all celebrate when it was published? I think it was just uh being together and holding up the book. It's not like we had a cocktail. Um, just celebrating emotionally the fact that I was able to make something of it. Yeah. And, um, it's a legacy, you know, it's not the one we would have chosen, but that's why I write pretty much is, is to move people and leave a legacy. And I'm a teacher. So whenever you're a teacher or a developmental editor is another one of my hats and You are helping other people and if they're younger than you and healthier than you, uh they may extend your legacy beyond your death as well. So I think of that a lot. And I think in a very unhealthy way, one thing I did after the suicide was tried to live for Ron and me because it was such a waste. Like he had such a talent. You know, he was an excellent bartender for one thing. He made the best Bloody Mary mix I'd ever tasted. Actually, I liked his Bloody Mary mix so much, I would drink it without the vodka because it just diluted the amazing flavor. And he uh was a show jumper. He would make a thousand dollars a ride even back then on the main line, to show somebody, hop on, show somebody's horse, win a ribbon and go home. And he was probably the best detail carpenter I've ever seen or ever worked with. I feel like how could you just not want to get better? But obviously that's me speaking from a place of mental health. I don't know what it's like. I think I had mentioned to you in another conversation that the day the cover of The Far End of Happy, the cover reveal came out was the day that we, the world found out that Robin Williams had died by suicide. Yes. And he had described his mental illness, which became eventually his physical illness with Lewy body syndrome that um It was like someone had took coarse sandpaper to his bones. So I really, totally cannot imagine the kind of psychic pain my husband was in, but certainly I would not want coarse sandpaper on my bones. So if he felt like that, I can understand that at some point it had to end. And then when I went to Al-Anon after, The whole thing was over. um You know, I had kind of gotten used to telling people my husband killed himself, not say commit suicide. Yes. Because uh a friend of mine who works with the National Mental Health Association told me they're trying to get rid of that because that was a Catholic term. Like if you died by suicide, you had committed the ultimate sin against God and you could not be buried in a consecrated ground at the church. You had to be buried somewhere else. And now we understand more about mental illness and that it is the result of mental illness. The person isn't thinking right, they're not capable of higher order thinking, they're not capable of problem solving other than the one final solution. so anyway, I would tell people he died by suicide simply because If I saw the shock on their faces, it mirrored the shock I had felt and made me feel more sane. And you know what? We also need trauma. And I hate to say that because I don't want to wish it on anyone, but we can't evolve. We can't grow. We can't know what we're truly capable of unless bad things happen. This is what I've learned through my deep dive into story. Have you ever read a novel where everything was good all the way through? No, that would be a stupid story. And I think we all, if there's one thing I want to leave everybody listening with, and you, is that we need to make of our lives a good story. We need to overcome. We need to have the hopeful ending. And if we can't do it for ourselves, we have to make damn sure we're leaving it for our kids. That's absolutely beautiful. you. oh I deeply appreciate your time today and I deeply appreciate your vulnerability and sharing with everybody your story. And it's an important one. And I really appreciate you being a guest on She Diaries. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. I too think it's important. I know there are a lot of people who are struggling to get beyond this. It's way too common. There's a Facebook meme out there right now about trans kids and about I am not trying to make my kids trans by allowing it. I'm just trying to keep my trans kid alive. And uh there are a lot of stressors in modern life, constant comparison on social media being one of them. And we're losing way, way too many kids to suicide. At the time I wrote The Far End of Happy, which was back, it came out in 2015. So I was writing it in 2014. We were losing a Middle East veteran. every 20 minutes to suicide. Think about that. Every 20 minutes. uh Life is hard and we need all the help and community and support of each other we can get. So thank you for doing what you're doing. little little we'll keep making some progress. All of us in this space together. So thank you. Thank you for joining us for this episode of She Diaries. We know these conversations can be incredibly heavy. If you're feeling overwhelmed or need support, please take a moment to care for yourself. In the show notes, you'll find links to mental health resources, crisis lines, and support groups. If you're in crisis or need immediate help, call or text 988 or visit 988lifeline.org. You are not alone. If today's story moved you, we'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share the episode with someone who might need it. To stay connected, follow us on social media at BrightSkyHouse and subscribe to our e-newsletter at BrightSkyHouse.com. If you'd like to connect with a guest or share your own story for a future episode, send us a note at hello at BrightSkyHouse.com. Every story deserves to be heard. Thank you for helping bring this one to light. Until next time, I'm Krista Gregg and this is She Diaries. These are feelings, drag me away