She Diaries

Rachel Wall’s Story: Losing Her Husband Mike to Suicide After Years of Chronic Pain

• Bright Sky House • Season 1 • Episode 9

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When Rachel Wall lost her husband Mike to suicide, her world changed in an instant. Left to raise three toddlers, she faced the unimaginable weight of grief while navigating the stigma of suicide loss and the hidden toll of chronic pain.

In this episode of She Diaries, Rachel shares her love story with Mike, their family’s journey through a miscarriage, adoption, and raising young children, and the heartbreaking reality of his struggles with traumatic brain injury and daily migraines. She reflects on the suddenness of loss, the challenges of single parenting, and how she struggles to grieve while continuing to move forward.

Rachel’s openness sheds light on widowhood, parenting after loss, and the importance of breaking silence around mental health and suicide.

Content Warning

This podcast includes real stories of suicide loss. Some episodes may reference the method of suicide and include emotionally intense or uncomfortable descriptions. We understand how sensitive this content is, and we carefully edit each episode to honor and respect both our guests and listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling, please call or text 988 or visit 988lifeline.org for free, 24/7 support. Please take care while listening—pause if you need to. You are not alone.

Takeaways

  • Chronic pain can quietly erode hope.
  • Life can change in an instant with suicide loss.
  • Parenting through grief requires honesty with children.
  • Talking about suicide reduces stigma, not increases it.
  • Widowhood means learning to start over while honoring love.

About She Diaries

In She Diaries, women who have lost their husbands to suicide bravely share their stories of strength while navigating the unimaginable journey of widowhood. Through candid interviews, the podcast explores their lives before the tragedy, moments that changed everything, the web of grief, and the hard-earned lessons of overcoming deep loss. These powerful stories shed light on the strength and courage it takes to move forward.

Produced by Bright Sky House — bringing hidden stories to light.

Mental Health Resources

  • 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline: Call or text 988 for free, 24/7, confidential support for mental health crises, suicidal thoughts, or emotional distress.
  • Find a Therapist: Search for licensed therapists near you through directories like Psychology Today, TherapyDen, or Mental Health Match.
  • Join a Support Group: Connect with others through peer-led or professionally facilitated support groups via NAMI or GriefShare.

Stay Connected with She Diaries

Instagram: @BrightSkyHouse
Facebook: Bright Sky House
YouTube: Bright Sky House Official
LinkedIn: Bright Sky House

If you have questions or would like to follow-up with any of our guests, reach out to Hello@BrightSkyHouse.com.

She Diaries is available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Krista Gregg, your host for she Diaries, a podcast sharing the real, unfiltered stories of women who've lost their husbands to suicide. It's raw, it's honest and it's about finding your way through the unthinkable. Before we get to the show, please know this podcast includes real stories of suicide loss and is not for little ears. Some episodes may reference the method of suicide and include emotionally intense or uncomfortable descriptions. We understand how sensitive this content is and carefully edit each episode to honor and respect both our guests and listeners. If you or someone you love is struggling, call or text 988 or visit 988lifelineorg. You're not alone. Please take care while listening, pause if you need to, and you can find links to additional mental health resources in our show notes. Thank you for listening. Welcome back to she Diaries.

Speaker 1:

I am your host, krista Gregg, and I am thrilled to introduce you to Rachel Wall. Rachel first reached out to me on Instagram to share her story and I am so grateful she did. In this conversation she opens up about her husband, mike, their life together, the joy of raising three young children under two years old and the pain of losing him to suicide just over a year ago. Rachel's story also highlights an important but often overlooked topic the impact of chronic pain on mental health. Through her honesty, she gives us a window into the complexities of grief and the reality of parenting really young children through bereavement and the courage it takes to keep moving forward in the aftermath of loss.

Speaker 1:

This is she Diaries. Fingers crossing out on my way so glad you're here for another episode of she Diaries. Thank you so much for joining us. Today's story is with Rachel Wall and we are so excited to have you, Rachel. She has an incredible story about her husband, mike, and their beautiful lives together and then what happened just over a year ago. And, rachel, I'm so excited for people to hear your story because it's also one similar to a previous episode with Charlotte Maya talking a little bit, too, about chronic pain and how that does impact people and it's not often talked about when it comes to suicide, loss and depression and making sure people are OK. So we will dive into that everybody in probably midway through the episode. But first I would love for Rachel to introduce herself and give us a little bit of information on where she is now in her life.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here and I just I know I've only spent a hot second with you, but I'm so excited for what you're doing and all the things you've done light up to this moment too. My name is Rachel. I have three children with my husband. Our oldest now is just about to turn four, our middle is two and a half and our youngest just turned two, so we've got three toddlers. We are currently spending the summer here in Oregon. We just sold our house and we're about to move to Arizona. So that's fun and new. And I just enrolled back in school for the first time at 33. So we're just kind of all over the place right now and just doing whatever. Yeah, I'm originally from Oregon, my husband was originally from Utah and I've been here almost my whole life. Yeah, that's kind of where we found ourselves in the last year.

Speaker 1:

Let's start from the beginning. How did you and Mike meet and tell me a little bit about the LDS Church and your experience of exploring a whole new religion, meeting Him and how that shaped a little bit of your future.

Speaker 2:

Sure. So I was not raised a Mormon LDS I was. I was always raised with with God, but I we didn't really do a lot of like consistent church. And so at about 25, 20, yeah, 25. I was introduced to the church and just became interested and I was kind of, I said at the time, in the market for a new faith. So anyway, I ended up reading the Book of Mormon. I ended up going to church for the first time, totally prepared to tell the missionaries that I did not want to meet them, get baptized, yet anything. Of course they're saying sweet. So I did say yes, and then they asked me to get baptized and I said okay, and I'm a people pleaser, but it really was. It really was somewhere I really loved to be. I lived a very different life than that before. So I always say like I came from the real world, but it was just a very comfortable place. I really loved the people in my ward, I loved the community and I loved the church and so I was baptized. I was 26, I believe.

Speaker 2:

Then that missionary who baptized me went home and I didn't know how quickly they moved. I just kind of thought they were in one place for two years. But if you don't know the missionaries, usually every six weeks they'll get a transfer and they'll either stay in the place they're in or they'll go to a different area locally to like the kind of city area that they're in, and so that missionary was actually finishing his mission. So he went home and he I had become really close with those two missionaries and the other one stayed, but the one that was replacing the one who left. He said, oh my gosh, you're going to love my replacement. And I was kind of like OK, and he said no, he's been here before, which is very rare, and a missionary will come back to an area that they've already served in. And so he said everybody loves him, he'll be great. And I was thinking like okay, whatever, and that was Elder Wall. And so he I met him three days after I got baptized, and right after you get baptized you also take the basically take the lessons again as follow-up. And so he was my follow-up missionary and he ended up. He had two more transfers left before he actually finished his mission and went home, and so he was there for three months and we got very close. We were just great friends and that's how I saw him as a friend. He would come to my parents' house for dinners and him and Chris the other missionary, we just were very, we talked a lot and they were really good missionaries. They were very personable, very fun. So when he left to go back to Southern Utah where he lived and kind of start his adult life now, after his mission he was a.

Speaker 2:

He was an older missionary. He went out at uh at 20 instead of 18. So he was 22 when he finished his mission. When I met him, most men go out at 18. So by the time they're done they're 20. But he was a little bit older. He had gone to welding school beforehand before he decided to go on a mission. So, yeah, he went home and we continued to talk.

Speaker 2:

And the last time I saw him before he went home was at a friend of ours house for dinner. I was leaving to go to my brother's birthday and I remember giving him a hug. Uh, you're not really supposed to hug with missionaries. So next on missionaries. But I just remember giving him a hug and thinking I'm never going to see him again and this was really sad and I got kind of teary and I think I realized that I liked him more than I thought and everybody in the ward was kind of like nudgy, like I was like you guys should hang out, you know. But I was like no, he's going to Utah, I'm never gonna see him again, probably has a girlfriend, you're ready return?

Speaker 2:

Missionaries come home and all the girls are like there and they date a lot and I had not dated my entire adult life, like I had been single my entire adult life up until then. And so he just kind of fell in my lap and anyway it was the other missionary's birthday and I said, hey, do you want to FaceTime Chris so we can wish him a happy birthday? And he was like yeah, and after we did that he kind of texted and was like we should do that more often. And I was like yeah, we should. And ever since then we FaceTimed every night and we ended up dating long distance for about a year. About six months after that we started officially dating.

Speaker 2:

Before that we would kind of fly in and out. I would either go there, he would come here, we'd meet somewhere else every month or so and we'd have like these little fun trips and see, see each other for the weekend, or he'd come and work for my brother for a week or two, um, because my brother owns a welding fabrication like steel erection business and uh, yeah, we did that for about a year and met his parents and then he decided to move out to Oregon and he left he here for two years, so he really liked it and it was very different than Southern Utah where he is from, climate wise, yeah. And so he moved out in 2020, the very beginning of February, and I told him okay, february is really slow. You know, all of the mills who contract with us, they usually spend all their money by the end of the year. So January they're getting the work done, done, but January they don't spend a lot of money. So, you know, february's typically very slow, but March will be very busy. March of 2020 was not busy at all because everything shut down, the mill shut down everything.

Speaker 2:

Yes, covid, yes, we had planned he, we had gotten engaged like the week after he got back and, uh, we had planned to get married that august, uh, down in utah and do a whole thing, and we decided to just move it up because of everything. We had a super small wedding. It was just our immediate families and the photographer and the videographer. So it was like 18 people there on the property that I grew up on and it was so perfect. We had this tiny little wedding. That was exactly what I always thought we would continental breakfast. We got married in the morning and we just played yard games. Our families met for the first time and it was perfect, it sounded beautiful.

Speaker 1:

And for anyone who didn't also pick up on it, because I love these little moments in life where it feels like these puzzle pieces are just coming together he delayed becoming a missionary because he was going to school for welding. And then it turns out your brother has an entire business on welding. It was crazy For him to already have the experience and the knowledge in an industry that is. You know, you have to go to trade school or you have to grow up with it somehow to learn it, and he ends up just being this perfect match for you and immediately there's a tie to your family, there's a tie to business, there's a way to make money, like it just it feels like everything's falling into place very naturally, without I know, like the universe is coming together.

Speaker 2:

Oh, totally. You know, I know it seems silly. Everyone's like, oh, of course that wouldn't happen. But I really did. I had had such low luck in love, like I wanted to be a mom and a wife so bad, but I just, I just couldn't. I couldn't find anybody that wanted to actually have a relationship with me. And I really, even though I was only in my mid twenties, like I thought I was very career oriented at the time and I just thought, you know what, maybe this is just what I meant to be, maybe I'm just a more of a girl's girl and I'm going to leave these women in my career and maybe I just don't ever get married and have kids. You know, I mean it seems silly looking back, like that's still young again.

Speaker 2:

I had never had a real relationship and I was very, it just kind of became who I was like okay, well, I guess I'm the single girl, you know. And then my quite literally fell into my lap, like you know. I literally fell into my like I have a picture of the first day we met because he was just supposed to be our buddy, you know. And and I even remember telling my dad how do I even tell my parents. I have a boyfriend. I've never done this before and I remember telling my dad like I think I tricked somebody into liking me, and my dad's like, well, you don't have to trick anybody, and I told him who and he was like the missionary and I was like, yeah, but my family already loved him, you know, and yeah, it really was perfect.

Speaker 1:

That's so awesome. And you guys? So you get married. It's COVID. Work has slowed down. What happens next?

Speaker 2:

So eventually the mills reopened. My husband actually worked at Costco during the pandemic, so like for the first couple months, for about four months, everything picked back up and he started working again. You know, we got married, we got pregnant right after. That pregnancy was very interesting. It lasted 15 weeks but our baby did not grow past six and a half weeks size. So that was a very like, let's wait and see what happens. Let's wait and see what happens. And it was just kind of a slow progress to eventual termination of that pregnancy slash miscarriage. It was kind of both we made the decision to finally terminate it and and then right before that appointment it had, our baby had miscarried. So that was kind of a big bummer.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. How did you guys emotionally support each other through that? I mean, you just got married. You've known each other for a long time, but that's a big deal for any marriage.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was so hard and I just remember thinking I'm so glad I had Mike through that process Because, yeah, up until that point in my life, that was the biggest loss that I had gone through. You know, I had lost my grandparents, but I was pretty young, I was in middle school when they, you know, passed and they were older and I had never lost anything that close to me friends, siblings, anything like that and so that was the closest thing. I thought that would have been the worst thing in my life, and up until that point it was, and it was so, especially for how gradual and slow it was, to kind of like oh well, maybe there's hope, oh, maybe not. Maybe we'll try again in a week and have another ultrasound and maybe things will change. Oh, no, they don't. And it was just kind of like this eventual, we are closing on our house. There was the pandemic, there was working, like it was just a lot at once. And I just remember thinking I'm so glad at least I have a partner who is so patient and so kind and so supportive and so many friends and family who were as well, so supportive, and so many friends and family who were as well. I never thought I would be in a position to terminate a pregnancy, especially for a baby who was so wanted.

Speaker 2:

But, you know, I became very focused on getting pregnant after that. I became very like hyper focused on learning as much as I could about other people who had had miscarriages. Like, I was Googling the podcasts, I was looking at the you know Facebook groups and I became fixated on that because it was just, it's in your mind all the time, that kind of loss, and so, uh, I was nervous that it would happen again, of course, and so when we did get pregnant again toward the end of that year, uh, that pregnancy ended in October and then we got pregnant again. I ovulated on Christmas day. We had gone to southern Utah to see my husband's family and I was ovulating in that day when we were flying and I was like, oh, it's not gonna work, we're gonna miss it again, and I'm like in the Vegas airport bathroom taking ovulation tests, like, like, um. So anyway, we got pregnant with our daughter. We didn't know it was our daughter at the time.

Speaker 2:

We we waited to find out with both of our, uh, the children I was pregnant with, uh, until they were born, to find out, uh, what they were. And that pregnancy was really, you know, stressful, stressful for me, um, although I loved it, it was kind of like, okay, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Um, although I loved it, it was kind of like, okay, like waiting for the other shoe to drop, but it was great. We had our daughter in September, um, and it was girl and, and she was breached, so we had a c-section for her and, uh, then we actually decided that we wanted to get life insurance a couple months after she was born. Um, so we went through that, uh, we to get life insurance a couple months after she was born. So we went through that, we got life insurance on both of us and we even joked that we can't, you know, take our life or skydive for two years. And it was kind of like a joke, like, okay, well, you know, can't be doing that, and which is funny.

Speaker 1:

Now, looking back, I think it just shows how hopeful you guys are too, though, for the future and also building something together. Like any couple, you know you have a baby. You want to create a secure lifestyle. You want to create a secure environment for your child to grow up in. I mean, this is not an unusual conversation to have, and then you guys are looking into the future of having more kids as well. So this is this is future state.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and we were very proactive. My husband, because of his head injury, which I'll explain, he didn't really think about a lot of details of things, but I am very task motivated and so for me I was like we got to do this. We have a house, we have a child. Now we have potentially 18 years of raising this child. Like, how do you do that, you know, without having? So.

Speaker 2:

It wasn't actually Mike's idea, which some people get confused about, that he wanted to get life insurance because perhaps he was thinking about ending his life at that point. I don't know, I don't know if he was at that point, I know, in the years to come. We had a couple of conversations about it and it was never, you know, an option which makes it very sudden and, you know, out of nowhere. But yeah, I was very proactive about, like, if something happens to us, like we need to make sure that we have stuff in place, like we need to make sure that we have stuff in place so we, you know, keep living on. You know, through our lives, we get pregnant again when Sienna turns one, because I really wanted to go back to the birth center and they wanted at least, preferably a year in between pregnancies. So Sienna turned one, we got pregnant that month and we made it all the way until I was about 25 weeks pregnant and then, and everything was fine with the baby. But we got this letter from DHS about this little baby and a cousin of mine has had a couple children and she's, you know, has a really rough life and those children had been adopted out and she had had another baby and so we it was like the day before my birthday we got that letter and so on my birthday we were planning on going out to dinner and my mom was going to watch Sienna, and so we sat at Red Robin and said are we going to take this baby? You know that they're asking if anybody can, short term, long term, whatever take this child, family preferably.

Speaker 2:

And that was the only time I saw Mike cry. He said he. Every time he thought about it, he felt the spirit so strong that it was we needed to do it. And I, mike, was just like that, like anything that didn't even directly affect him, and a lot of the drama in our, in our marriage, you know, was caused by me or maybe my side of the family or whatever. And he, just like it was just a no brainer for him, like, yeah, of course we're going to do that. He was such a um, he was such a kind, thoughtful, others focused person his whole life and that's why I felt so lucky that I tricked him into liking me. That's how I felt, like you are so much better than me, you know a good person. Like I try and do everything I can for other people too. But when people say, oh my gosh, no, you know, and they compliment me, I always think you should have known Mike, because he just was the best person I've ever known.

Speaker 1:

So he said right and to in. In a previous conversation we had you described him and I think this was so the way that you described him. I think it matters and it's important too, because you were, you were describing how he was around your brother and all of the welders, and it can be a bit of a rough crowd is what is what you said? In the industry can be a little bit, you know, hard knocks. And he just came and you said he, he never preached religion but he treated everyone like. He like with the values of Jesus. In a sense of it was the kindness, compassion. He never swore, even though they always try to get them to like I'm just imagining the culture, but everybody ended up just falling in love with him and his personality and his kindness and his generosity and that was true to form of what you were saying. It's just that was him.

Speaker 2:

That was Mike, absolutely, and and and that's the kind of I love, I love religion and I hate religion in certain aspects. Like, I think that a lot of things, um, you know, whatever it can be a rocky road, um, in how people model that, and I think I personally, in my personal opinion, I think Mike did it right. I he would talk with people about Jesus If the conversation went that way. You know, he was always open to it, um, and sometimes he would take that, you know, step and kind of bring it up, but oftentimes he just really brought Jesus to people without words, like he just was his hands and with that crowd. Oftentimes that's the best way to do. It is to just be that for people instead of trying to get them to come to church or talk about Jesus or whatever. It's just to be that example. And he was so good at that and, yeah, everybody just loved him for that. You know, I think they didn't expect to. You know, really, really, really like a guy like Mike in that field you know he was almost the guy that was would have been super easy to just like make fun of and kind of like, oh, that dude, you know, you know play pranks on that kind of thing, but you just couldn't help but love him and, um, so we get this, we get this ladder.

Speaker 2:

We decided to take this baby. Um, we ended up getting her right at three months old. Uh, and I was 30 weeks pregnant with Calvin. Um, our our second child. And uh, so we really went from Sienna was 18 months old at the time so we really went from one to really three children. We only had the two for about a month and a half or so.

Speaker 2:

Calvin came a couple of weeks early and that was an incredible. I'm so glad that I got to share that with Mike. I asked him about it a little while later. I was like, how was that birth for you? Because it was very different than Sienna's, but I really wanted him to be able to. We had him in the birth center, unmedicated. I wanted Mike to catch the baby. I wanted Mike to tell me if it was a boy or a girl. Like I really wanted him involved in that. Like we didn't necessarily get the first time and I'm so glad, but he was like that was intense, like that was crazy. But he was right there, you know he. He caught him coming out and he put him on me and said it's a boy, and I knew that, uh, I just felt that, and so it was very special and I think even more special that it was his son. Uh, not knowing what would happen later, but it was just a moment. So we have our second baby, we have this other little newborn baby and then we have our toddler.

Speaker 1:

You have in. Two under two is hard, three under two what was that like for you guys? I knew you ended up deciding to be stay at home, mom, which I applaud you for, because absolute chaos yeah it really was.

Speaker 2:

We didn't really sit still. So it was get married, get pregnant, get pregnant again, get pregnant again. You know, buy a house, the whole thing, and then take this other baby and now we have the three babies. And yeah, three under two. It's too many. By the way, If you can help it, it's a little bit too many toddlers at once.

Speaker 1:

But I'm so glad that we have her. And then you guys also decide future state. Looking forward to. What you want your lives to look like with this beautiful family is have some land, but you need to save that money for it first. So you have all these babies, you are now a stay at home mom and you guys decided to switch up life in a way as well with living. What does that look like?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we we got our house ready to rent. We, we got it rented and then we moved out into a fifth wheel on my parents' property and so we downsized and it was great. Actually, everyone thought, oh my gosh, three toddlers and a fifth feel like what are you doing? But to be honest, it was almost easier than cleaning a four bedroom house with toddlers. Like you don't have anything, so your cleanup takes 10 minutes at the end of the day and you're done. You know so. You spend all your time outside, you know so. It was really nice.

Speaker 2:

And our two big goals that year were number one get Mike's mom to come out more often. It really bothered me that he had left everything basically for me and our family so that I could be close to my family, and I said I really want to get your mom out here at least every other month, maybe a weekend every month, you know so that was a goal. And our other goal was to focus on his headaches. When Mike was 16, he was in a head-on collision and it left him with a very big TBI and the lasting effects of that were that he had these chronic headaches and migraines every day. He just always had one. Some days they were worse than others, but it was always there and nothing could ever be done about them. He would see doctors and nothing could ever be done. And oh my gosh, this is just going to kind of be your life forever. And he was such a good person. He even kind of was grateful for that because he said it really made him nicer, made him more empathetic, like he really was so amazing to see the gratefulness in his accident, even though he just dealt with this chronic head pain all the time and he never talked about it. You could never like look at it, you know, or or see it, because he just he just lived through it and he had kind of come to terms with the fact that like this was his cross to bear and like it was going to be fine and he could still live this meaningful life through it. And so I knew that when I met him. And when it's something that is your daily life, it's easy to just become used to that.

Speaker 2:

And it takes so long in America to be seen and be have a referral and then you finally get to a doctor and the doctor says there's nothing we can do. So you have to start over and you have to make sure they're in network and you have to pay these co-pays and you have to take off work to get there. And you know you're trying to raise a family and you're trying to provide and it's just, it takes so long to finally get to somebody who can help and then, when you finally get to somebody who can help, to be told that there's nothing that can be done. I think I almost think he did it for me, you know, because I was so invested in it, because he was expecting it.

Speaker 2:

You know he was expecting that there's nothing that's going to be done about this, and but we had these ideas. You know, maybe we'll get a nose job. Nose jobs have been, you know, proven to help with some migraine issues. Maybe we'll do Botox, maybe we'll do, you know, all these other little things that we had these ideas on. And so that was going to be the year for it. This was last year, 2024.

Speaker 1:

Well, and you guys finally found a provider who was willing to. Ok, you know what? Let's get updated records, let's get a new MRI, let's take it to the next level. And what is so heartbreaking to me too and this is a constant theme right now in news and media, and it's something that a lot of people experience is insurance denies it, like as if they know better or they don't like. They basically said Mike doesn't need it and it's not their call. They're supposed to support you and financially make sure that this is possible for his health and well-being, but it was Denae.

Speaker 2:

You would think that a company that you're paying thousands of dollars to would say would trust a doctor. You know it wasn't us that said insurance company, can we please have this for free? It and I was a doctor saying this is my patient, I've seen my patient, he needs this MRI, and it just, yeah, it provides very little faith in the insurance companies that even a doctor, even a professional, can say I'm requesting this, and this group of nameless, faceless doctors can say I don't think that's really important. And so they sent a letter back about the MRI, denying the MRI, saying that they didn't believe that Mike had basically, non, a non-functioning brain and what is his reaction at this point?

Speaker 1:

because he's already, he's his new was expecting that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and we were standing in our trailer and he opened it up and he said oh, you know, the insurance denied the MRI and I I was the one that would get fired up about this and he I just stopped and looked at him and I don't even think I had an emotion, because I was so incredibly angry that I just said, okay, don't worry about it, you're going to get the MRI. I don't care if you pay $5,000 for it, you're going to get it. Don't worry, we're going to have dinner tonight. Everything will be fine, we'll schedule it one way or another, I don't care if the insurance pays for it. Like that's where I was at, because we had finally come to this conclusion. We're, you know, dropping our bills by moving out. Yes, we're saving for property, but we're also saving to have money to get him new scans, do this stuff, you know, which is going to cost thousands of dollars, but it was, we did it for that, you know, and looking back it seems silly, but I really believed that we were finally to less stress, less chaos, less everything. It was just going to be simple. We were going to get the help that Mike needs. We were going to save for our property to live simpler. You know we were going to. We had done all the things. So we had gone through all the chaos, everything was closed, everything was done. Our new life was going to be chill, which spoiler alert, uh did not last long. So, yeah, we're, we're ready, we're ready to go.

Speaker 2:

We had just gotten a referral from that same doctor to organ neurology, which was very highly spoken of, and we were waiting to fill out that paperwork. We kept on saying we got to do it tonight, we got to do it tonight, and so one night I'm up there prepping. I was doing like some little cottage bakery type stuff. I was prepping like cookies and bread. And I said, mike, before we go to bed, please fill out that organ neurology paperwork. And he was like oh, yeah, okay, so he's filling that out. Sienna's up there, she's kind of cranky. I really don't remember much about that night, other than I just said I can stop right here, let's just go to bed. Sienna's getting you know upset, we'll just let's just go. So Mike filled the paperwork out. I stopped what I was doing.

Speaker 2:

We go to bed the next morning. I wake up. Mike was working about 45 minutes away. So he usually woke up early, early, like 4. Yeah, I wake up, get the babies up. We had a little like parenting appointment. We. We went outside, we kind of played with the dog, played with my dad a little bit.

Speaker 2:

We have this normal day and the babies go down for a nap and I don't know what I did. I just kind of, I guess did whatever cleaned up of, I guess did whatever cleaned up, and Mike and I shared location and that was just easier for me. With him working in the trade that he was, that I could see is he still job side, is he not? Then I don't have to call him and say, hey, are you off or not, cause there are varying work times, you know, on jobs like that. So we always had our location just to make it easier for us. I hadn't even looked at it all day, I hadn't texted him all day, which was rare, but it was just a busy day. You know, we were just doing stuff.

Speaker 2:

So after nap time, after I'd kind of done whatever I was going to do during their nap time, sienna actually took a nap too. She was in the middle of dropping a nap. So all three of them were asleep and Mike was supposed to be. It was going to be a quick trade-off. I had a filling appointment at the dentist and so it was basically going to be by the time he got home. I was basically going to be in the car leaving like trade-off switch.

Speaker 2:

So it was about 2.45 and I was like, oh, he's probably about, you know, usually got off around 2.30. So I said I'll call and make sure he's on his way home. Nothing's going to make me, you know, leave for this appointment, you know, or whatever, and I'll make sure it's all good. So I pull up my phone and it says the name of our town and I thought, oh my gosh, maybe he got off early. He would do that sometimes so that I didn't have to sit there and wait the 45 minutes until he got home. I would say, you know, oh my gosh, he's almost here. You know, oh, yay, it kind of cut out some of that like waiting time, and so he would do that. It's just surprised me sometimes. And I thought, oh my gosh, she's almost here.

Speaker 2:

But when I looked it had put it past our house and we live quite a ways out of town at the time and there's really nothing past our house and so immediately I thought I wonder if his phone got stolen. You know, cause, cause, sometimes people out in the boonies, you know, that's kind of what happens sometimes. And I called him and he didn't answer and I thought, no, like I wonder if he hasn't had his phone all day. And I called him back again and he answered and he was very stressed. He seemed very stressed, he seemed like he was having a hard time finding words and I suddenly got confused. I said, hey, what's up? Where are you at, you know? And? And he couldn't really say. And I said are you, you know, out past the house? And he said yes, and I started realizing I was going to be having to ask him yes or no questions.

Speaker 2:

Um, and he was just breathing very heavily on the phone, like he, like he was trying to regulate himself, like he was having a panic attack and he had been stressed. You know, that weekend before when his mom was in town over the oil in his new truck and he thought maybe he had ran it out of oil and ruined it. Anyway, making big deals out of small things. But we talked about him and he seemed fine, you know. Okay, yeah, you're right, you're right, it's not a big deal.

Speaker 2:

So he's going through this again and I'm thinking what in the heck is going on? And when I get into a situation like that I am not very I don't know the word for it but I'm not like, oh my gosh, babe, what's going on? Are you okay? Like I go into, like what's wrong and like how am I going to fix this? So I was like trying to download this information. He told me he loved me. He said I'm just, I'm so sorry. I love you and it really haunts me that I didn't say it back, because I was so confused why he was saying these things on the phone.

Speaker 2:

I thought maybe he was in danger, maybe, you know, somebody was up there and I don't know. I had no idea. He just kept on saying I just feel so sick. Still, he had been sick a couple of days before and I was just kind of like okay, like nothing was making sense. I said are you, you know, up there? He said yes. I said have you been up there all day? And he said yes, and I thought, okay, well, he must just be spinning out and stressed out, took a day off, but he didn't call in. So now he's probably feeling guilty that. You know my brother's the boss of the company. You know, maybe he feels weird about that. He took this day off, he didn't call and so I just thought, okay, it's okay, it's okay, I'll just come out there and see what's up. And he kept on telling me not to come out there.

Speaker 2:

And again, all of these signs point to something is not okay and as you say them out loud, you think what does that mean? You know, obviously, but my head it was. So it wasn't even a thought Like that, wasn't even a thought that my husband would be considering suicide. I thought he must be in danger, somebody must have him at gunpoint or somebody must have him kidnapped, or you know, I that was where I went with it, because I kept saying I'll just be there, you know, in a minute we can talk.

Speaker 2:

And he kept on saying no, you know, don't come out here. And I was like well, you either come here or I'll come there. And he just kept on saying saying no, no, and finally it was almost kind of annoying because I was just like okay, what are we going to do here? Then you know, like I got that feeling, yeah, like, what are we doing? We just going to keep going back and forth like this, in the fall, for 10 minutes. And so finally I just said, you know what, I'm going to come there, just don't move. And he said don't come out here, just send someone else.

Speaker 2:

And in my head I'm thinking like, so, so he's, there's something wrong. Like somebody must be out there with him. Why would he not want him? And I was like, do I need to bring a weapon? Like what do you mean? And I just said, just don't move, I'll be there in five minutes. You know, I'm I'm on my way.

Speaker 2:

And then, uh, he didn't say anything. I said, babe, you know, babe. And he hung up. And so I was like, okay, you know, I kind of grabbed my stuff and uh, I called him back one more time, it kind of picked up, and then nothing. And so I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna go.

Speaker 2:

Luckily, my dad was still there, he was getting ready to go into town and uh, he was still there, he was outside clipping the dog's nails and I said, hey, I gotta go find Mike and he goes find dog's nails. And I said, hey, I got to go find Mike and he goes find Mike. What do you mean? I said I don't actually know. He didn't show up for work. He's been, you know, out past the house all day. I don't know what's going on, but I need to go talk to him. He was kind of like, okay, you know, that's weird. And I was To get in the car and on my way up there I'm just thinking all of these things, I'm thinking like, and I remember telling myself over and over as long as he's alive, it'll be fine, as long as he's alive, it'll be fine.

Speaker 2:

And even as I said that to myself on the way up, I thought, okay, rachel Dural McQueen, you know like, yeah, he's going to be fine, right. But you look back and you're like, oh, you know premonition and your, your thoughts, kind of I don't know, maybe, maybe you know. But I didn't believe that, I didn't actually think and I did also think I need to ask him if he's suicidal. This is very weird for him to not call, not go in, be somewhere all day, you know, by himself, like this is strange. So I'm going to make him tell me if he's ever considered suicide. You know, it did cross my mind, but I had no idea that you know it may have already happened, so it sounds like to leading up to this point.

Speaker 1:

he's internalizing a lot and holding a lot in. Obviously he's had chronic pain his whole life. He isn't very hopeful in any solutions here. Um, the incident with the vehicle lightly mentioned on, but he was making mountains out of molehills small things that honestly not a big deal. Everybody said no big deal, like it's not even your fault, but he kept internalizing things in a way that he wasn't showing and that wasn't realistic. Yeah, and it didn't make sense. So it just it's in in again for anyone who's listening. He wasn't an alcoholic. He's not. You know, a lot of times people do substance abuse leading up to a lot of these moments in their lives, and he wasn't doing any of that. And so I just want to paint the picture Like I I genuinely believe it's totally understandable for for you to not even have that thought and even when you did have that thought, to say like, oh my gosh, no, stop, this is Mike we're talking about. Like this is exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's so funny because it's like when you come to cross I mean, we had watched that show a million little things together and had that conversation have you ever considered, like you know, taking your life? And he was just like no, you know, I don't think he was lying to me when he said that, but I also don't think he had this thought for the first time. And then it happened like that, wasn't it either? So I think that's the hard thing with suicide loss is feeling like there was a little bit of lying, even though it was to protect you. You know he didn't want anybody to worry about him, but it is. It does feel that I can see how people feel that betrayal of like what did you not tell me? You know, like I'm your wife and you didn't tell me these things? You know it's easy to go there, even with someone like Mike, like how could you not have told me this?

Speaker 1:

So you're going up the mountain and it's about 10 minutes away.

Speaker 2:

Is it where his location is yeah, it's only three miles away, but it's logging roads and it turns to gravel so you cannot go very fast. So it's not just three minutes, you don't go. 60. I was going, probably 20, you know it's up in these logging roads. 60. I was going probably 20, you know it's up in these logging roads, and so I keep going, keep going. And I and I had asked him, can I see your truck from the road? And he had said yes, and so I get there, I see his truck, I see him in the truck, and so he was kind of facing perpendicular to where I parked. There was kind of this area where people do like fires, they shoot, you know, shotguns, they do target practice and stuff, and so he kind of parked that way, kind of overlooking this little area up on the mountain really pretty view. So I parked on the road, so we're parked, you know, at an angle to each other, and I see him.

Speaker 2:

I get out my phone and my keys, because I didn't know how long it was going to be, that I was going to sit and chat and I walk up to the car and I felt relief. I almost just felt like, okay, like we're going to talk this out. You know, he's just stressed out. And I go to open the door and I kind of almost had my head cocked, kind of like you. What's going on, you know? And when I look, I go to open the door, the door is locked. His truck is running. So I was like, oh he, you know, he must not have it, must have locked automatically. And when I look up, I I just kind of immediately my immediate thought was like what, what did you do, you know? And and I, his eyes were closed and so I was like okay, what, what is going on? I try and open it a couple more times, it's still locked. And when I looked up the second time, I had realized what had happened and he out loud, just said no, no, this is not happening. Like no way, pick up my phone. I call 9-1-1.

Speaker 2:

I thought I was very cool, calm, collected. I didn't understand why they couldn't hear me. Um, looking back, I was not, I just was immediately hysterical. I couldn't really walk or stand very well, um, and we were so far out of town that it took um over 20 minutes for them to come out. Even you know, lights and sirens as fast as they can minutes for them to come out. Even you know lights and sirens as fast as they can.

Speaker 2:

Um and I, I just remembered them saying my 911 dispatcher, she was the best Um. I remember her asking are you sure he's beyond help? And that was the first moment I thought what if he's not? What if he's still alive, um, but? And I said no, but I can't get in. And which is hilarious, because I had a window breaker on my keys and the moment that you need to use it, you don't remember it's there, um. And she said I don't want you to go back and look, you know. But you know, I just wanted to see if you knew. And I I didn't think so, but I do.

Speaker 2:

I carry a lot of guilt about that that I wasn't able to physically get to him because your instinct just tells you to run away. And so they get there Multiple sher me sit in the back of her car and I remember hearing the man because they had me kind of walk away a little bit. So by the time they got up there, I remember them hearing over the radio they said suspected deceased. And it was both a huge gut punch to hear that and a big relief because I thought if they get there and he's still alive and I have just spent 20 minutes doing nothing, I am going to flip out. You know, like I will not forgive myself for that.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and then started this after of your life, in the after of completely turning upside down, and it's so weird. I think about a lot. I look at my call log and within an hour I was talking to Mike on the phone and within less than an hour of that I was back at my house. The sheriff said drop me off. I was a widow, suddenly with three children. My kids were still asleep, so my kids went to bed with a normal life and of course they didn't know. But by the time they woke up they don't have a dad. And it's just wild how fast your life can change like that. Like the dentist's office was calling me and I feel so bad. I picked up because I don't want them to think that I just left them hanging. And she was like are you still coming? And I was just like I'm so sorry, babe. I've been just oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Like trauma to me on this. No, worry about that appointment, yeah, and it's just wild to me that that can all happen within an hour.

Speaker 1:

You know world is still spinning, and yours?

Speaker 2:

has stopped. Yeah, and it's just crazy. And the next weeks, you know we're just, you know, viewings and cremation and funeral in Utah, you celebration of life in Oregon. A lot of Just figuring out what we're going to do, moving again, yeah.

Speaker 1:

A lot of guests say that it's really a lot of business first, before you can even start grieving. Did you have that experience?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean you don't have. You don't have time to really just even absorb what's happening and if I'm honest, I don't think I have. Like I, it is almost depressing to me in some ways when I think about it, because I talk with my therapist about it a lot. I thought I would in the moment. I thought in a year from now everything will be better. You know, I'll be better suited to this and I'll have, you know, maybe gone through the cycle. You know everybody thinks the stages of grief, this, and I'll have, you know, maybe gone through the cycle. You know everybody thinks the stages of grief are, you know the steps you go in, you know, and they don't know that wasn't even created for people who are grieving, that was created for people who are terminally ill, and so you think, okay, in a year I think I'll be back to normal, I think I'll have gone through all the five stages.

Speaker 2:

If I'm honest, I think I'm still in denial. I don't think I and I don't know how long that'll take. It won't surprise me if it never feels real to me because it does not feel real to me that I will never see my husband again ever, like I don't get that I can look at him in a box and it's on my windowsill and I'm like that's not Mike, you know what I mean. Like it just feels like he's somewhere else, like maybe he's off on a job for work, or he's out of town, like it just does not seem real. And so, yeah, in the beginning it's like you don't even have time for that because there's so much paperwork, there's so many steps to wrap up someone's life. Like I go from pictures in my phone of making sourdough to a picture of a sheriff's business card. Like, and immediately it's dealing with car insurance, dealing with death certificates, dealing with, you know, calling the medical examiner, calling the funeral home, writing a check for cremation. I mean, they, that's their business. Like you said, life goes on. That comes up right away. They need to be paid. You know, all these things need to be in place. Like it doesn't wait for you and I think in some ways that seems really cruel and in some ways it just keeps you living because it's just the next step. It's the next step and it both sucks and keeps you breathing because you, at least you got to make that decision, which is not a fun decision, but the decisions keep you focused on, on. I guess this is what we're doing today, you know, versus.

Speaker 2:

And when you're a parent, especially like you, don't your kids are waking up the next morning, you know.

Speaker 2:

I mean, my kids woke up from their nap expecting to be played with and expecting to grab a snack, know, and they didn't know that. And I will say, my people, like my church, my friends, my family, like I, didn't really have to truly parent my kids for probably two weeks, like everybody kind of came in and helped. But you know, you do a little. You have to because, again, they don't know. You know they don't know what happened. And so I think that's one of those dual things. It sucks that you can't just curl up in a ball and say I'm not doing this and at the same time, it's probably a good thing that you've got to keep moving on, because otherwise that and and and they say that too, you know suicide, specifically in children and spouses, like that first week, is so much higher because you do, you just want to be like I don't think I want to do this, I don't think I want to live the rest of my life without this person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it becomes an option. Is what I've been writing it like in in your mind it's the no, no, no, we don't even entertain this idea. But when someone's so close to you, does it all of a sudden, it's oh, that's if it can happen for them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, oh, say that last part again. Well, I just said yeah, absolutely, like. Oh well, if it's an option for them, I guess it's an option for me, because it would. It would be just as wild for me to do this as it was for Mike too, you know, and and I do also had.

Speaker 2:

I had this thought immediately, like as I was on the phone with everyone, I thought, um, I can't let anybody know this is how he died, because I couldn't. I couldn't fathom anybody being angry at him. And I thought I can't tell anybody that this happened, because they'll be mad at him and that will kill me. That will kill me that anybody is mad at mike now. Um, because I knew, you know, what he struggled with. And one other thing I will share is that the weekend before he died, um, we had driven past the temple they were building a new temple and in, uh, close to where we lived and, um, I came across this article about this man with ALS and they were high school sweethearts and he got ALS and I just said, man, can you imagine just waiting for your body to give out, like just waiting to die? And I have always been very pro, you know, medical assistance and dying, and I think I and I still am, and I said that to Mike. I said, you know, I know some people disagree, but I just think people should have the option to end their lives, you know, when they are, when they're in situations like this, when they're in constant pain or they're, you know, have a terminal illness or whatever, like I think people should have the opportunity to give themselves mercy, like that, you know.

Speaker 2:

And I thought of that right after. I thought what if I gave Mike permission? You know, like I didn't mean it for him I mean I did, but I didn't mean it at the time speaking to him, and I thought what if he took that as like it was okay? And at first I carried a lot of anxiety about that and as time passed I thought I'm still glad I sent it to him because even if he did internalize that and think maybe I'll be okay if I do this, you know I am glad that he knew that I would understand if he did that, you know.

Speaker 2:

And so I walked this fine line of I don't mean to glamorize Mike's death, I don't mean to encourage people to do this. It is shattering, it is the worst thing that you go through, but I do still believe that people sometimes just can't keep going and, if I can forgive my husband, there are a million other people out there like my husband, and so it's that fine line of like. I don't want more people to do this, but I understand how you can get to a point where you think that that's all is going to help you, and it's really hard. So I have a lot of empathy for people who take their lives and I have a lot of empathy for the people left behind too.

Speaker 1:

Well, and something you had said before, which was deciding to take your life, is an irrational thought. So for all of us to try to understand it rationally, it's never going to happen. Like it's just. Your brain is in such a state of irrationality that we can't problem solve this from a rational brain?

Speaker 2:

No, it's never going to make sense to you and it sucks because you're going to think about it. You know all day, every day. Why did this happen? What could I have fixed? But the problem is that, yeah, an irrational brain, a brain that you alive at all costs, that's its main job. And if your brain is to a point where it's telling you to take your life, it's no longer working. It's almost like suicide is the last symptom of an unwell brain, because it will never make sense to somebody whose brain is still working. So it's almost kind of like what's the point in trying to understand it? Because you're never going to understand it. You just have to accept that that happens sometimes and you just have to accept that that person had gotten so unwell that that made sense to them. But it's never going to make sense to you because you're not there.

Speaker 1:

You're not in that state of mind. One very sweet moment that you shared with me is on the viewing that was also on your wedding anniversary, and you specifically chose flowers in a way that was meaningful for you both. Tell me about that.

Speaker 2:

We always give each other traditional gifts for our anniversary, and so the traditional gift for year four is flowers. And I didn't actually mean to schedule his viewing on our anniversary. I wasn't looking at the date, I just said how, about Thursday? And then she confirmed to me, okay, the 20th, and I thought, okay, but it did seem fitting. You know, I was kind of like, okay, well, special day I guess for another like special day, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I didn't go into his viewing, um, I did not feel like I could. I didn't want to see him like that. I had already seen him, you know, at the scene and to me that was even more comfortable than seeing him in a funeral setting. I didn't want to see him in a funeral setting and I also didn't think that I would be able to leave easily, you know, physically, walk away from him, and so I didn't go in.

Speaker 2:

But I had had our friend who made our wedding bouquet and our wedding corsages. I had her remake that, um, and she she donated it. She was so sweet and she made him a little corsage, she pinned it on him and we put my bouquet in there to be cremated with him. Um, she got some pictures of our wedding rings together, you know, on his chest, and it was very sweet and yeah, and then later that day I got this tattoo on my hand, which also had some of the picture or some of the flowers from our wedding bouquet in it, and so it was kind of it was memorable. It's just not what you expect to do, of course, on your anniversary, but, yeah, it worked out good, you know, for for her to be able to do that and show up like that, I know was special for her too the symbol of that is.

Speaker 1:

The symbolism of that is just so, so beautiful. And hey, how are you, how are you and the kids doing today? It's been just over a year. How has been being a single and the kids doing today? It's been just over a year. How has been being a single parent? The kids are still so young. Do they even understand everything or are they having different grief reactions?

Speaker 2:

I think it's a hard thing knowing that your kids are not going to remember their dad at all. It's hard looking forward to potentially being with somebody else and that person is going to be the person they think about as their dad. Of course, I'm always going to talk about Mike. We're always going to talk about him like he was here. Sienna still remembers things you know, and she still talks about him. They all recognize him and photos and all of that. But the babies were so little. I mean at the time the kids were two and a half, 16 months and 12 months. It was a week after our son's first birthday. Well, actually the last thing we really did together as a family was having a party. So they are not going to remember anything, you know, and Sienna probably will end up not remembering anything either, even though right now she kind of does. But they're very open because I'm very open with them. You know we talk a lot about how I mean Sienna can tell you right off the bat like Daddy lives with Jesus. Daddy lives in heaven. He's waving the cards. Did you know that? Did you know that? Daddy's up in the clouds in the sky? And she talks about that a lot. I wish I could go up there and I wish I could see him, you know, and I miss him and it's so sweet speaking. She, you know, knows that he lives in our hearts, you know, and he died. But you have to have these really blunt conversations with your kids about death, and so death is not something that we really sidestep around in our life, like, whereas maybe before I would have said you need to listen to me so that you don't run in the street because you could get hurt by a car, I say you might run into the street and a car might hit you and you might die. And then they're like oh okay, you know what I mean, because they already know what happens when you die. You don't come back, you know, and so you don't expect you kind of want to sugarcoat it a little bit before. It's so personal to you. But there is no sugarcoating the fact that you know he's never going to come back, we're not going to see him again. He lives in heaven now, you know. And so while they still don't understand what that means and there's no that there's no eternal concept for them they don't know what they've lost, which is really sad. I've had to explain.

Speaker 2:

Sienna did finally ask you know, why did daddy die? And I just said, you know, daddy was in a car accident. He hurt his head really bad and, um, you know, he tried to to live with it and his head was just hurt too bad and the doctors couldn't fix it. You know, I mean in appropriate age, appropriate terms. But when they start to ask, you know our, we talk very openly about suicide. I don't whisper the word, you know. And so when, when the time comes that she wants to know, again in age-appropriate words, like I will say what happened. I'm not going to lie about that and my life is going in a very suicide-heavy trajectory right now. So they are going to know that that happens, you know, and they're going to know that he did that, but also know why he did that and the fact that this isn't just he had a headache and he died because of that headache.

Speaker 2:

Then it's like, well, what if I have a headache? Or what if my head gets hurt? Am I going to die, you know? And so it's. It's very blunt in terms of what they can understand. But, yeah, a lot of conversations that I didn't expect to be having with them. We have pictures up. You know, we have there's a bench in town, we have a bench at our new house in Arizona, um, that has him on it. So we go to daddy's park all the time. Actually, just this morning, calvin, our youngest, who just turned two, he was at daddy, and so we go to the park, we draw pictures for him on the concrete under the bench, you know, and and I ask what they want to say and I write it down for them, and so, yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 2:

I mean, again, I really do still think that I am in a lot of denial and I don't think that it's come full circle to me, that it's just such a big concept to wrap your head around, like how did this happen? Especially sudden, which happens a lot with suicide, you know, it's like you don't have any time to say goodbye, you don't have any time to to know that that's your last conversation, to know that, like I don't know when I kissed my husband last, you know, and that is never something that you would think that would be real. So I don't know if it's ever going to make sense in my brain, but you do have to keep on going and you have to just keep on making choice after choice and it does get simpler, I guess, to go through the motions, maybe not easier. I have a very hard time with anger and so I know that in my grieving journey I'm very stuck on the anger part because I don't feel, I don't feel like I can be angry at Mike because of who he was. I can't be mad at him, even for taking his life and, you know, leaving us quote, quote in this situation. I can't because he was never that way to us, he was never that way to anybody, like he was everything to everybody. And so how can I be mad at him for giving himself this mercy in his life? So I get hung up on that, giving himself this mercy in his life. So I get hung up on that.

Speaker 2:

And I think there's so many emotions in the grieving process that it's really hard sometimes to feel them all because you feel very conflicted about some of them. But yeah, you'll make it. I mean you don't really have a choice. You know everyone says, oh my gosh, you're, you're, you're so strong, you're making it through, and it's like there is no other choice. You know, I don't want to be in this situation. I want to just lay down and do nothing. But you don't get that choice, especially as a parent, and it'll become more normal, which sucks, but it's just. It's just.

Speaker 2:

There's your life before something like this happens and there's your life after, and they call it a chapter two. You know, for a reason they call the next relationship you're in a chapter two. You know for a reason they call the next relationship you're in a chapter two because it doesn't have to be the same. It's never going to be the same and you're never going to be the same as you were before. And I think embracing that and knowing I'm not even the same person I was almost gives a freedom to be like I don't have to pretend my life is the way it was before because it's not. It's different, but I can settle into it. I guess you know, while being sad, what do you?

Speaker 1:

think needs to change in our society and in our culture to help support men, especially those that seem fine on the outside but are internally struggling, and maybe in relation to chronic pain as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, on the chronic pain side, I think we absolutely need universal health care. I will say that until I die. We need affordable health care, we need affordable therapy, we need access to help, especially for invisible illnesses like mental health. I think we need to talk about it more and I mean, I think we need to talk about it since little boys are little kids, you know. I mean we don't have to do this whole oh, you're fine, you're fine, just get up Like, don't be a crybaby.

Speaker 2:

You know, all of that language, I think, molds people into how they're gonna deal with their emotions. You know, and I think, if we can start using empathetic language in terms of emotion to children, to our kids, you know, especially our little boys, like in sports and all of this kind of stuff, like it starts, I think, so young that men specifically, but everybody internalizes these emotions, they bottle it up, they don't share anything. You know, I think, perhaps reducing screen time and like talking with your children and trying to keep the lines of communication open and or spouse or whoever you know, having really uncomfortable situations, this is the person, if you're speaking about, your spouse, that you spend every day with, that you're the most comfortable with and still it is very uncomfortable to have a conversation of how's your mental health? Have you ever considered suicide? Have you ever considered taking your life? That's weird, that sounds weird to say even to this person who you share your life with. But if you can get past the uncomfortable and they know that they can bring it up, there's no studies that have shown that talking about suicide increases the risk of somebody taking their life. But there is a lot of research in terms of sidestepping it and not asking, and people still, you know, ending in that conclusion. So saying the word suicide, bringing up suicide, is not going to tip the scales for someone, but it may make them feel more comfortable sharing those thoughts with you.

Speaker 2:

And I think if you know somebody who's dealt with that or previous suicide attempts or their mental health, I think opening up that conversation and then just listening, not freaking out, not saying oh my gosh, like, do we need to check you into a rehab? Do we need to do this? Do you need a psych hold. That's why I think people don't reach out. They think that they're going to be labeled this suicidal person and, oh my gosh, they're going to call the cops on me or they're gonna check me into the loony bin, they that's what they think is gonna happen. And so if we can just have these conversations calmly, like you know, if, especially if, they say yes, then I think that's gonna spur people on to speak about it more. And so I think even just saying the word suicide on social media or, you know, in person, goes a long way, because it is such a taboo word and topic Absolutely, and you related it.

Speaker 1:

I thought this analogy was. So it helped me kind of visualize things a little bit. Where we're really comfortable with talking about stages of cancer right Stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four you know stage one, stage two, like lower in the numbers, you have a higher rate of survival. Know stage one, stage two, like lower in the numbers, you have a higher rate of survival. But and I feel like what I keep the theme that I keep getting from a lot of these podcasts is it's really critical to start having these conversations when someone is at a stage one, stage two, but when you get higher up in the stages it's it's a lot harder to come back yeah, and sometimes, and sometimes you can, sometimes you can't.

Speaker 2:

I mean, suicide prevention is a tricky word for some people because they feel a lot of guilt Like, oh well, if I could prevent suicide, does that mean I didn't do everything I could?

Speaker 2:

And sometimes you just don't know. Sometimes you don't know that it's a problem until it's already at a stage four, and it doesn't matter what you say to that person, they're convinced that that's the choice for them, whereas had you been able to get to them in an earlier stage, when it was just maybe a tiny little thought that bounced off their heads, maybe you could have, you know. So not all suicides are preventable, but I think if we start early enough, perhaps people can steer themselves back to a good mental state and and can keep pushing that conclusion away. You know, and and it's not a real possibility for them, as long as we can keep it at bay as something that they're not really thinking about actually doing. It's just passive suicide ideation, it's not active, like making a plan, I think. I think that would help. Making a plan, I think that would help. And sometimes people don't let you in. My husband never, you know, he never said it, so you can't help something you don't know about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Is there anything else we haven't covered in this recording that you want to make sure you share with anybody who's listening?

Speaker 2:

I don't think so. I think it's just um, however it is, you lose someone, it's it's just, it sucks, it sucks. It sucks to be, and if it's suicide, it really sucks. And if you're struggling with your mental health, that sucks Like you will make it through, but it's just, it is awful. And I am so sorry if anybody listening to this has been through this. I'm so sorry if anybody listening to this is struggling with their mental health and considering taking their life. I think if my husband would have known how his loss affected everyone, I don't think he could have done it. I think he just had convinced himself that he was a burden. He, you know, he was not needed in the think. And there really are people that are willing to help you if you can find the strength to reach out or let people help you, so just please reach out, please exhaust all of your opportunities before you consider making a choice like this. And if it still happens, I won't judge you, but we will miss you. It's just, it's not a fun journey.

Speaker 1:

Rachel, thank you so much. Your story is so important, your words are important and I just know that. I am grateful to talk with you today, and I know a lot of our listeners are going to be moved and learn so much more just based off of our conversation. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us for this episode of she Diaries. We know these conversations can be incredibly heavy.

Speaker 1:

If you're feeling overwhelmed or need support, please take a moment to care for yourself. In the show notes you'll find links to mental health resources, crisis lines and support groups. If you're in crisis or need immediate help, call or text 988 or visit 988lifelineorg. You are not alone. If today's story moved you, we'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review or share the episode with someone who might need it to subscribe, leave a review or share the episode with someone who might need it To stay connected. Follow us on social media at Bright Sky House and subscribe to our e-newsletter at brightskyhousecom. If you'd like to connect with a guest or share your own story for a future episode, send us a note at hello at brightskyhousecom. Every story deserves to be heard. Thank you for helping bring this one to light Until next time. I'm Krista Gregg and this is she Diaries, fingers crossing now On my way.