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Join Heather and Nicole as we discuss all things Gen-X with personal nostalgia, current events, and an advocacy for the rights of all humans. From music to movies to television and so much more, revisit the generational trauma we all experienced as we talk about it all. Take a break from today and travel back to the long hot summer days of the 80s and 90s. Come on slackers, fuck around and find out with us!
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Hearts of Glass, Malls and Memories, A Chat with Pat Green
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What happens when three mall misfits find each other amid the neon glow and synthesizer soundtracks of 1988? That's the question at the heart of our conversation with author Pat Green, whose novel "Hearts of Glass: Living in the Real World" captures both the nostalgia and the complicated reality of growing up Gen X.
Pat reveals how the book originated from a series of blog posts about influential women in Gen X culture, evolving into a story of found family and survival. Through his characters—Ford, a traumatized former child model; Cassie, a punk-rock fan escaping an abusive relationship; and Jenny, a profoundly deaf aspiring model navigating a world without ADA accommodations—Pat explores how the mall became a sanctuary for teens escaping troubled home lives.
Our discussion goes beyond surface-level 80s references to examine the deeper meaning behind Gen X nostalgia. As Pat eloquently puts it, "We discovered art, beauty, and friendship while we were in the middle of hell." We explore how today's wave of nostalgia serves as both comfort and coping mechanism in uncertain times, especially as we face the mortality of our cultural icons.
Pat shares fascinating behind-the-scenes insights into his research process, including his consultations with the Deaf community to ensure authentic representation of Jenny's character. He also takes us back to his own mall experiences, including a hilariously candid account of working at Glamour Shots in the early 90s.
The conversation weaves through themes of consent, challenging toxic masculinity, and finding strength in sensitivity—all embodied by Ford, who Pat describes as "what happens if a little boy grew up and actually listened to Mr. Rogers." Whether you're a Gen Xer seeking recognition of your lived experience or simply fascinated by the cultural touchstones that shaped a generation, this episode offers both laughs and profound reflections on how we survive through connection.
Grab your copy of "Hearts of Glass" wherever books are sold, with the audiobook releasing July 25th. Visit patgreenauthor.com to learn more and connect with the author who's bringing Gen X stories to life.
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Welcome to Like Whatever
Speaker 1We're never done as ever laughing and sharing our stories . Clever , we'll take you back it's like whatever .
Speaker 3Welcome to Like Whatever a podcast for . By and about Gen X , I'm Nicole and this is my BFF , heather .
Speaker 2We're back and we brought a friend Back and we brought a friend .
Speaker 3Yes , so today we are doing our first guest host . We are very excited we have Mr Pat Green here with us , the author of Hearts of Glass , living in the Real World .
Speaker 1We're just going to get to know Pat talk about his amazing book and y'all need to listen to it and share some gen x memories .
Speaker 2So hi pat , hello , how are you two we're here , we're here just on .
Speaker 1You two said yes , I'm sorry , in advance no , nope , nope , nope .
Speaker 3If this goes wrong , we're blaming it all on you , so don't worry about it I'm good with that um .
Speaker 2So we know , as you know , because you are our number one fan um we do a little current eventiness before , but I think we all know what the big .
Speaker 2We had plans for other current events and then , you know , something happened today . So my current event I'm going first is ozzy . Yeah , very , it's , it's . Well , let me take it back really quick because I do think it's important . Um , the trump administration has dropped the lgbtqIA option off of the National Suicide Helpline and that's bullshit . So the Trevor Project is trying to pick up the slack . So if anybody would like to donate to the Trevor Project , you can look that up . I don't have the website handy , but but yeah , that's , I don't , I can't even talk about it . So , yeah , upsetting . So , yep , the trevor project is picking up where where that looked off and I'll share the trevor project on the socials .
Speaker 3So if anyone listening needs the information , you can look it up on there .
Speaker 1I went through Trevor Project's training a couple of years back during Shelter in Place to be a hotline volunteer with my kid and with my kid's friends so many of them are LGBTQIA+ . I did it for as long as I could and there came a point where mental and emotional exhaustion not to get too dark , but sometimes you wondered if you were the last call and with shit like this going down , it's just making it worse . So , yeah , I really appreciate you bringing up the Trevor Project . What they do is amazing work . They have an amazing team of volunteers . Their training is comprehensive , it's sensitive and it addresses a need that we need especially now .
Speaker 2It's just the school . I know we've in the beginning just said we were not going to get political , but I mean at this point it's decided .
Speaker 2Fuck them if they don't like it . Yeah , if you don't like it , too bad . This is who we are . I mean , that's just it . Um , I lost so many friends in the 90s to suicide . Um , I lost many friends who were um gay that ended their lives because they were not accepted , and it's just . It's just , it's sad and there's no reason why you can't have tab to take you there . It's not hard to have somebody trained in that , it's not . It's not hard to have somebody there specifically for that . It's not like they're taking a call from somebody else just because it's just , I don't know . Yeah , I get angry . I mean , stop with my anger . So that was mine . And I'm sad about ozzy . Uh , I knew it was coming , obviously , but but you know that's that All right .
Speaker 3the next great news for Gen X this week we lost Malcolm Jamal Warner .
Speaker 2Who's number three ? I wonder Very tragically .
Speaker 3Out on vacation in Costa Rica with his family . I follow I'm on no , no , like whatever is on um blue sky as well and there is a black blue sky on there and I hadn't really thought about it , but this was like a big hit for them because Theo was one of the first you know teenage black kids on TV that they could look up to and see themselves in . So it's really been very tragic Just all the way around sending out some love to his family .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's just great . Yeah , you know , it's just sad , it's sad .
Speaker 1It's it's . It's funny because you know , being Gen X , thursday nights on NBC we got into his life and that's where we also discovered Lisa Bonet and so many other people that just became household names and I wish we still had network television to expose us , broaden us and create that common bond yes , I agree , I know it , it's nowadays it's first of all , it's so much more expensive than just to have cable , because you have to have cable and you have to have 27 streaming , and then it's .
Speaker 2You know , oh , are you watching this ? Well , what is it on ? And you have to go looking for it and that you're .
Speaker 2it's not . There's not really anything anymore that is water cooler talk . Yeah , yep , yep , that is so true . And I know , when , um , when they came out with theo being dyslexic on the show , the way that my sister is just horribly ADD , just terrible ADD , and everything that Theo had , my sister had , she can't take tests Unless you're asking her the questions . Specifically , if we would play Trivia Pursuit , I'd have to be the one asking the questions because I can make her sometimes , I can make her focus and uh , and nicole knows my sister and she knows that I have to , like , hold her face and make her look at me to tell her anything , and if you do , she listens . So it was like an eye opener that , and I would tell my mom I think that's what's wrong . I think that's what's wrong with her . Like , I think she's got , I think she has , the dyslexia that Theo has .
Speaker 1I don't know , they never took her anywhere , but Well , as long as we weren't doing special episodes involving Nancy Reagan telling us to say no to drugs which what fun is that ? I think a lot of those . Oh , and also Punky Brewster telling us not to go into refrigerators . But a lot of those special episodes .
Speaker 2I forgot about that .
Speaker 1Yes , he was talking about dyslexia . And in the meanwhile , you know , punky Brewster is like don't , don't go into refrigerators and junkyards .
Speaker 2that was , that was the safety takeaway and that I totally forgot that we were all dying in refrigerators yeah , that's why we're all so fucked up everything , everything . Sand was gonna kill you . Sand was going to kill you . Refrigerators were going to kill you .
Speaker 1Yes , well add in a little bit of satanic panic and we were all doomed from the get go .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2I lived the satanic . I mean you don't look like me and get away with you , don't look like me , without taking a ding on satanic panic . So the 90s were not good for the goths . I don't think me in particular anyway , especially because I mean so I had that you know , just added right on top , and now I have a . I am a card carrying member of the satanic temple and I have the lovely little uh uh certificate that my mother-in-law found .
Speaker 2So I am now the devil as an ex-evangelical , I'm mildly jealous and I will see you in hell when we party and see ozzy live again that's what I said to a friend of mine the other day , because he was like I'm going straight to hell and I was like I'll see you there . I don't even want to go to heaven . It sounds awful .
Speaker 3I saw the other day that said somebody told me there would be a special place for me here .
Speaker 2Do you get your own house ?
Speaker 3or what , or even just your own bedroom , would be nice .
Speaker 2I'll even take a little chair in the smoking section . That would be great for me . That would be there we go .
Speaker 3Just let people watch .
Speaker 2I bet there is a smoking section in hell .
Speaker 3It's probably all the smoking section . I mean , it is on fire after all , and it's a casino .
Speaker 2It's a giant casino .
Speaker 1Yes , but I want them to be unfiltered . I miss unfiltered cigarettes .
Speaker 2You know what I miss cloves . The other day somebody told me you could get cloves still in Rehoboth , where we're from , where you could always get them . Somebody said but they're like stupid , expensive and apparently they're not as good as they used to be . But sometimes I can still taste them . Taste it on your lips .
Speaker 3Yep , yep , they were the best .
Speaker 1Every once in a while I'll pick up a pack , and whenever I do , if I'm walking in the city , people are like , oh my God , is that a clove ? And they're not offended , they're excited and intrigued , as if I uncovered a mystery .
Speaker 2Did you roll your own cigarettes ?
Speaker 1covered a mystery . Did you roll your own cigarettes ? Did you roll your own ? No , uh , the things that I rolled was not tobacco , but , um , I wasn't . You know , I did try to roll my own once and it just looked like a tobacco joint , it just it didn't work out well and it didn't taste good yeah , we had a friend that rolled his own , but I never .
Speaker 2I was like you know what ? I'm just gonna buy him . It's a lot easier it was only a buck 86 , so come on I was so sad because I used to smoke um camel special lights and then they got rid of my camel special lights and I was very sad about that . But I think they have now brought them back , but they don't call them lights anymore because that's against , like the law or something yeah , I well .
Speaker 1I remember I think it was 89 or 90 they were pushing two bucks a pack and I said when they're two bucks a pack , I'm done . And then I said when they're five bucks a pack , I'm done . And now here I am forking out 12 and saying if it hits , hits 15 , ah , fuck it .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah . I remember when I was younger and they were seven bucks a pack in New York city , I was like oh my God , people afford to smoke .
Speaker 2Luckily there are only eight here , so .
Speaker 1I'm . I'm just going to supplement my retirement plan . I've been working on it . I practice it . Welcome to Walmart . Welcome to Walmart . Can I see your receipt ? I got this .
Speaker 2I don't think I'm going to live that long . The more I smoke , the less long I live . I don't have to worry about retirement .
Speaker 3There are actually 10-something to pack up here .
Speaker 2Really You've got to go to Wawa with the card At Wawa . Oh , really you gotta go to Wawa with the card At Wawa , oh yeah .
Speaker 3You have the card .
Speaker 2Yeah , you're right . If you buy two packs , you get like so many cents off or something Mm-hmm , because it's like I want to say it's like $18 with my two packs of cigarettes and my coffee drink , and my coffee drink's expensive , so it's like $5 or something , stephen Colbert , and the silencing attempt that you know .
Speaker 1I think back to being a kid . Letterman and Carson both pushed lines . We weren't aware of it , but even Reagan and Bush put up with it and didn't try to do anything . This dystopian you can't call it . I'm not a conspiracy theorist , but it's not a coincidence . It's a load of bullshit and I love watching all of the other late night troops rally around them . Earlier today I saw an interview with David Letterman where he said you can't spell CBS without BS . Where he said you can't spell cbs without bs . Um , this is just nuts and it's a little bit chilling , um , to see the potential silencing of voices .
Speaker 1It's it's it feels , very communistic yeah , and , and fucking george carlin . He told us , if you don't like it , there's this thing called the dial Change the channel .
Speaker 2Yep , yep . I watched Jon Stewart his thing on it this morning . I saw , and you know , whatever their reason is as to if it's this merger , you know who got you to that $8 million number or billion dollar . Who got you that number , you to that eight million dollar number or billion dollar , or how ? Who got you that number ? Well , steven colbert is one of the is one of the reasons you got that way , and john stewart is . You know it's just , I don't know .
Speaker 1It's a little scary right now it is , yeah , and under his eye .
Speaker 3Welcome to gilead yeah , a hundred percent , a hundred percent yeah , and we have three and a half years of this life , so look at all the damage he's caused already are you wishful thinking again ?
Speaker 2I'm just saying there's a whole tiktok movement that when it happens . So I don't know um I just I think it's just I , I don't even have I every day . You think it's just I don't even have every day . You think it's that , that's the worst , that it's going to get right , that's just as bad as and then , and then the next day just tops it .
Speaker 3So it's just , it's been this way since he was running for his first presidency . I remember every day being like , okay , this will be the thing that will finally get him out of politics . And nope , everybody just turned the other cheek and kept on rolling .
Speaker 1No , the goalposts have moved outside the stadium and they're still moving them .
Speaker 2You would think that I mean , even though some of them are getting a little miffed over the Epstein thing , and then he , just he's just telling them again . I don't know why you're so upset about it . A few people don't realize that he , if you didn't know he was on the list to begin with like where or have you been living ?
Speaker 3I don't even know why we need the list , because there are pictures of him wrapped around girls who are clearly 15 , 16 years old , like with Epstein standing there . I mean , what do you think he was doing ? Yeah , I don't know . I'm so sorry . No , it's okay .
Speaker 1This is a shitty week in the news , which is kind of why I you know watch this for a segue , kind of why I think books and stories are important for us to distract and enrich our lives .
Speaker 2You're a professional at that , come on .
Speaker 3See , I told you we'd know how to do this . Heather and bookstores are even making a comeback , by the way .
Speaker 1They are , and independent bookstores have really become my friend in my kickoff launch tour it's all been indie bookstores , small bookstores , used bookstores have really become my friend in my kickoff launch tour . It's all been indie bookstores , small bookstores , used bookstores , and they are these amazing , beautiful spaces . There was one where I was there and a lot of my friends and family they had already been to the one at the library and the one at the last bookstore . So there were like maybe four people , five people that I knew , and I'm like , oh shit , this is going to be a
Pat Green and Hearts of Glass
Speaker 1dud . But as I was talking about the book and I had my ASL interpreter with me , um , every so often somebody would just walk by and sit down . Another person would walk by and sit down and next thing , I know , uh , you know , I mean most of the people who are reading and reviewing the book , even though it's a YA book , it's mostly Gen X and millennial women .
Speaker 1But my audience turned into , you know , I remember there was this guy who was really large dude sitting there in his flannel shirt and he had to have been 65 years old and he's like , so you'll autograph my copy today , right ? I'm like , yeah , sure , and uh , can I take one of those balloons home for my grandson ? I'm like , yeah , but you know , it was fun having that engagement and that can only happen in those types of bookstores . You're not going to get it in a barnes and noble and you're definitely not going to get it shopping on amazon . But you know , in barnes and noble you're going to get it in a Barnes and Noble and you're definitely not going to get it shopping on Amazon . But you know , in Barnes and Noble you're going to have everybody that's wearing snapback hats and yoga pants and drinking lattes .
Speaker 3But in the organic , small , independent bookstores it's like this gigantic family that you walk into and they're amazing you walk into and they're amazing right and even though I've never been a reader , I loved because back in like the 90s and the early 2000s , like even barnes and noble border books , the what was walden walden books well , I could go into those places and spend hours and just sit on the floor and look through books and and I'm not even that big of a reader , but it was still like a cool , fun thing to do and a way to spend time , you know , without we have a great , uh , independent bookstore um here , um browser , it's called browse about um and they have .
Speaker 2they have all the time always something going on and book clubs and all of that . And you know independent stores are really we don't have a chain . Well , we just got a chain . We just got a Barnes Noble literally like two months ago . So it's always been independent here , which has always been nice , and Browseabout's been there since we were kids .
Speaker 3Yeah , it's always been independent here , which has always been nice , and Browseabout's been there since we were kids . Yeah , it's always been there .
Speaker 2It's nice to have a little cafe like a cafe area and stuff . They got big . It's really nice in there . Independent is definitely the way to go .
Speaker 1Oh , absolutely yes .
Speaker 2So tell us about the lot .
Speaker 1I started last year a blog-type news thing called Gen X Watch and I did all of these little stories on Fridays called Femme Fridays . I would talk about Joan Jett or well , actually not Joan Jett , yet I would talk about Cyndi Lauper and this person and this person , somebody from our era , who was a woman that made a difference , and the effect that she did emanates today . And I wrote about Tina Turner and I got very few clicks to that one and I got some passive , aggressive messages from people of my generation , where it . You know , anytime you start off with your sentence , I'm not a racist , but some racist shit is about to come out of your mouth . So that infuriated me . I was going to cancel the series at this point If my , if my readers aren't ready for black people , fuck this .
Speaker 1So I decided to write a giant middle finger to my audience . I was pissed . So I , angry , wrote an article about Joan Jett because I can't think of anybody else who's more in your face , full on feminist , strong , screw you energy . But then I was like you know what , if you didn't like , if you didn't like me writing about a black woman , I'm going to tell you about this woman I met at a Joan Jett concert . We went to her apartment , did drugs and horrible things to each other's body for four days , and so I wrote about this girl that I met at this concert in 91 . And everybody loved the article . But it wasn't Joan Jett . They loved the story about this woman named Sarah .
Speaker 3And .
Speaker 1I'm like wow . So I decided you know what , let's try it again . I'm going to tell them about this friend of mine named Heather that I had met , and so I told this story . She was a Madonna fan and I wrote that story and people responded they loved Heather , they thought Madonna was nice , but they fell in love with Heather because Heather was them or their friend or whatever . So then I wrote another one , and I didn't expect to go this deep , but I wrote about my first love . Her name was Kathy and it turned into a three-parter and what I found out was I found myself writing about this story with her and these friends that I had met when I life of abuse and sexual molestation and all these other horrible , traumatic things to this space of beauty . And then some things happen in my life and I got sucked back into the world of evangelical Christianity and abuse . So there was this moment of beauty , there was this moment of light that I never wanted to talk about because it was painful , but in writing it I found out it was cathartic and people fell in love with her and I , you know , wrote about a friend of mine who's profoundly deaf and um , her and some people that I wrote about on the um , who were on the outskirts of our friendships . Uh , they reached out to me and they were just like you gotta write this , but give Kathy a better ending . Um , because in real life she didn't have a good life and she , ironically uh or unironically , I don't know um uh killed herself the same year I tried to make an attempt on my life in 2019 . Um and um uh killed herself the same year I tried to make an attempt on my life in 2019 . Um and um , so I decided to write it .
Speaker 1Now , book one , the book that everybody has in front of them that one is so close to autobiographical that I had to consult a lawyer to make sure that the villains in the story couldn't turn around and sue me . Um , so know we , we , we , we , we . You know we had to figure out where the line was . But , yeah , I wrote this sublime story and , though it's based on all of us , Ford is completely different from me . He's a little bit smarter than I am . He's a little bit more self-aware , but he's also delightfully clueless in some areas . I am . He's a little bit more self-aware , but he's also delightfully clueless in some areas . Cassie is able to express herself more than the woman she was based off of . About the only character that didn't really change was Jenny , the profoundly deaf girl . She was always the most assured in the room and she would push back on you in a heartbeat , but when you knew you were wrong she would turn around and give you a hug .
Speaker 1So , anyway , we have this story about these three misfits that meet in the mall . You've got the traumatized former child model , Ford , who is working at Silverman's clothing store in the mall . Um is working at Silverman's clothing store in the mall and he meets Cassie , this girl who's got this punk rock DIY ethos , that is a huge blondie fan and also into polystyrene uh of the x-ray specs and you know the the whole punk and goth , Susie Sue , the whole nine yards . And um , she's there working at julius and she's got this shitty stalkery , abusive ex-boyfriend and some other dark things in her past . And then you've got jenny , who is this um , uh , profoundly deaf , very , very attractive redhead who's a super prep , has the latest fashions and has an it factor , but can't be taken seriously as a model because this is two years before ADA existed , so she couldn't get the accommodation she needed to get a proper photo shoot . So the three of them meet each other and they're in over their head with all of these entities that are out to destroy youth .
Speaker 1I think people forget that it's not out of the ballpark for us . In those days , you know , while we were living feral , we were also dealing with abuse . We were also dealing with adult predators . We were dealing with all of these things . So I wrote this story that , um , maybe we don't defeat all the dragons , but we find that hope and that beauty and the found friendship . That's where we survive , that's how you two are together all these fucking decades later . Um , that you know , we , we don't necessarily win or have a happy ending , but there is an ending and that hope exists in each other .
Speaker 3That was really beautiful , pat , thank you .
Speaker 2I think for me , cassie reminds me , as I see her in in my head , um , is our friend , that we our mutual friend that introduced us , um , the curly hair and the , the attitude , and I mean the if you throw a little grateful dead in there that was christine , I , she , just that was her . And honestly , ford I know Nicole knows him I saw Matt , I saw Matt in her , I mean in him , that's Yep . So yeah , I feel like at that point in all of our life , like it just brings home the , the , that line of being a kid and being a grown-up , when we've always had to be a grown-up and now we're having to deal with also . I mean , we've always had to deal with grown-up issues , but at that point it was such a a confusing time because we did have to deal with such heavy topics . Um , it was hard to navigate . I feel like so it was , it was , it was . It was good to remember that time and and in my life as well , dealing with you know , similar , similar stuff .
Speaker 1So , um , that's why I really enjoyed it , because it brought me back to to that time and season one of stranger things was a moment that helped me with that , because so much of our nostalgia . We we make it so kitsch . We we focus on uh , like the wedding singer , which I love , we focus on the outfits and the music . But there's a scene in season one of Stranger Things where Will and Jonathan Byers are discovering the clash together and Will is being told by Jonathan you know the clash , Joy Division , all these other bands this is what's going to save your life . And while they're having this moment together , what's going on in the background ?
Speaker 1Mom and dad are having an argument in this flashback scene about what a fucked up , weird kid Will is and Jonathan is just trying to get him to turn off that noise . So that nostalgia that we discovered , that music , that entertainment , that beauty , the stores these were things we discovered while we were in the middle of hell . They were distractions that we needed when we didn't have term therapeutic terms like coping skills and coping mechanisms . This was just survival and in that survival we discovered art , beauty , friendship .
Speaker 3That's the word right . There is survival . I grew up in a tumultuous . My mom left my dad when I was seven and she married somebody and they fought constantly . And I remember going into my bedroom and I just closed the door and sit there and just think , if one of you would just stop , this would be over . But nobody would ever stop , you know . And so and it had an effect on me as an adult I wouldn't fight with my significant other because in my head , let me just sit here and be quiet so that we don't have this big argument all the time . But that's what a lot of us grew up in and it really was important . Like getting that driver's license at 16 was everything , because then you could go to the mall or to your friend's work or to the beach or whatever you wanted to do , and just get away and forget everything and just have fun . And then you had to go back home .
Speaker 1Well , the one thing for Ford and I um , I was a child model and when I was nine , I was doing a runway show for Vidal Sassoon . They I ended up in their catalogs for the pictures of the haircuts and all that stuff . Um , but in this runway show that I was doing , there was a man who eventually became the person that hurt me for the first time and , um , my mom went ahead and married him because cocaine . Um , and I escaped that life when I was 13, . I just called up my grandparents . I was dead inside from the first time .
Speaker 1I was hurt that way and everything after that was just trying to exist and the ability , and that was what made me so susceptible to the message of evangelical Christianity , what made me so susceptible to the message of evangelical Christianity . But then , when I got this job at the mall , I wasn't around my school friends , so nobody knew that I was this fuck up dweeb that didn't talk and I wasn't in the church where I had to live up to this Jesus expectation . I was just in this third place and nobody here knew me . They didn't know my history and I didn't understand how amazing it was to my history and I didn't understand how amazing it was to be myself , and I didn't even know that's what I was doing . But I was myself and all these other people were themselves , and all of us had messed up backstories , but it didn't matter because we had each other . So , yeah , it was absolutely survival , but at the same time , it was survival with a kick-ass soundtrack and Galaga .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , you're exactly right . And I also grew up in the church Methodist . Every single Sunday and I saw so much hypocrisy . And I remember when I was 16 , I started doubting my faith and I had to go talk to the pastor and every question I had for him was just , I don't know , or faith , or because I actually I'd met Christine so , and she brought in all kinds of things for me I just didn't know about . And she , she taught me about Buddhism , and so one of the things I asked the pastor was well , how come Buddhists are wrong but we're right , but Buddhists were here first and he didn't have an answer to any of it and that basically was was the end of it for me . And as soon as I turned 18 , I was like I'm out , done with this , and I did the whole thing the communion , the confirmation , teaching , bible school , like all that that stuff . Like I was in deep and , yeah , I , that's why I'm an atheist today .
Speaker 1Same .
Speaker 2Yeah , how much do you think the um , the current swell of nostalgia for um Gen X , how much of that do you think is um self-soothing us now ? Or is it an attempt to go back in
Mall Life & Found Family
Speaker 2time some way to tell ourselves it's , it's gonna be okay , like do you ? Do you think the nostalgia that we're living now is an attempt to go back , or do you think it's just a self-soother now ?
Speaker 1the answer to the question is yes , but let me unpack that just a little bit because I think about this a lot . Um , there's healthy nostalgia and there's unhealthy nostalgia . Healthy nostalgia is having that soothing coping mechanism , and there's a youtube video that I saw some years back where they went into an old folks home with an iPod to people that were suffering from Alzheimer's and dementia and when they were listening to the music of their day , they calmed down , they were less agitated and their memories came back . So when you're engaging in that , in a healthy , nostalgic thing , it is soothing , it is a coping skill , it is something that helps center us Because it worked then . It centered us then while mom and dad were arguing in the background . It centered us then when we got home from a shitty day at school , and now that everything is on fire , we can go home and embrace that nostalgia .
Speaker 1I'm right now currently in season three of Miami Vice . We can embrace that , relive that and relax . Now the unhealthy nostalgia is when you get fixated on the lie that things were better then , that things were more civil then , that we were smarter then , that the music was better then . The music was better then because that's when we discovered it If we were born in 2000, . If we were born in 1950 , our musical taste would be completely different . That's just a fact . But when we start thinking that we're better , we become just like the scene in the breakfast club . We become just like our parents and Bender is a fucking profit , bender is a fucking prophet . Um , and we don't want to become that , because if we start shaming zoomers that have their earbuds on watching tiktoks , instead of shaming them we need to be saying what are you trying to drown out what's going on ? And you better hope the fuck it's not you right ?
Speaker 1yeah yeah , so that's ? That's my answer to the question . There's healthy , and then there's this lie that we tell ourselves .
Speaker 2I agree with that . I think also , some of this nostalgia is , you know , again , going back to the loss of Ozzy today , I know for myself it's . You know , we lost people in the 90s , in the 80s , the 90s , the 2000s , and those were all tragedies and tragedies and tragedies . And now we're losing people and it's because of their old age or because of a sickness , or it's not a tragedy anymore and it's almost like I know for myself . I hear the ticking of the clock at this point . Um , and it's a weird place to be , especially for me . Um , I never thought I'd get to this point in life to begin with . I never , never , expected to make it this long . Um , it's a shock and surprise to everyone .
Speaker 1None of us did . I think that's the mark of a Cold War Gen Xer .
Speaker 2Yeah , I just I think I don't , you know , and I'm certainly I'm having to pay the piper now for past mistakes and misuse of ibuprofen . I have stomach issues and my teeth are falling out . I never thought I'd live this long , so now it's almost like a oh shit , we're getting to the end .
Speaker 3I hope I have a good 30 years left in me . I would really like to have some good time because I'm going through a big transition years left in me Like I really like to have some good time Cause I'm going through a big transition in my life right now and I think it's going to be good and I want to get to enjoy it .
Speaker 1So I am painfully aware of my mortality and some days it does haunt me . It's it . It feels like this background noise that's always there and it scares the shit out of me . And when you were talking about artists , um , these last couple of years , I've been intentionally seeing acts , some that I've never seen before someone last round , because I don't know if this is going to be the last time that I'm going to get to see them . Uh , just a couple of weeks ago I saw or what . Month and a half ago I saw ministry , because who knows , month and a half ago I saw Ministry and that was Uncle Al's last round , anyway . I saw Cyndi Lauper on her farewell tour In 2022, .
Speaker 1I saw Blondie not knowing that Clem was and Chris not being as healthy as he used to be . I think Blondie is done . We've got an album coming up , but there's going to be no more tours , so shit . I saw the last tour and , jesus Christ , I saw Rick Springfield's Summer Before Last . Never thought that would happen . It turned out to be a really cool show . The guy is amazing and I have a new respect for him . But it's like I'm doing this last round knowing that it's their last round and wondering when it's going to be my last round . So I don't have money to go to Paris and France and do all these things , but I can still afford concert tickets , not as easily as I did back then . So , yeah , it sucks .
Speaker 2And I never got to see Bowie live and that fucking blows Every day at least once a day . Think about how angry I am at myself because I was in Las Vegas when Prince had his residency and I was going to go and I was gonna go and I just I was like oh , the tickets are just too expensive and and I could kick myself every day for not not going to see Prince .
Speaker 3I mean , I , I just yeah , I got to see Huey Lewis um a couple years back , which was my childhood heartthrob . Like I loved . I used to put my hand on the radio when that song came on , like when he would tell you to put your hand on the radio . But shortly after I saw him his voice went and he was done and his hearing .
Speaker 3Yeah , so I got . You know he didn't pass away , but I got to see him on his last round , so , and I had never seen him before , so that was really awesome .
Speaker 1Yeah , in August I'm going to see Billy Idol and Joan Jett are headlining together . This will be my third time for Joan Jett , first time for Billy , and then in a couple of months I'm seeing Psychedelic Furs . And uh , oh , my god , uh , gary newman , gary newman , and looking forward to that one , because I've never seen either of those two fuckers in concert yeah , joan jett is still amazing .
Speaker 3She was my first concert at the state fair . I was 16 and I begged and cried my mom for my mom to let me go , and she did , thank god . And then I saw her a few years back at a rock fest in philly and I kept getting in trouble because I was on the lawn . But when she came on I ran down to the front and security would make me come back and then I'd go find a different spot and run down to the front so I'd be close to her the joan jet .
Speaker 1The joan jet concert that I saw her in was a small teaser concert at a mall in Ohio oh wow , and that was so weird she was doing Tiffany proved that there was a business model for doing those free shows to get people to go to your big stadium show .
Speaker 3Yeah , definitely definitely .
Speaker 2You know the um . The other day , the new kids on the block at the fair , they came to the fair and here and uh , they were there with tiffany and , um , jimmy pick not what was his name ? Tommy page , tommy , okay . Um , the the fair puts a facebook page up and they're like , oh , remember when and it was like they they put that one up and I think I sent it to you , nicole , because we were both there . We didn't know each other then , but we were both there and I remember being so excited about going to see New Kids on the Block and I can tell you honestly that I will go tomorrow to see New Kids on the Block , yeah .
Speaker 1I hate the fact that when they come on the radio I no longer turn off the station . I find myself sticking and I'm like because of that nostalgic factor and because of the fact that one time I drew the short straw amongst me and my relatives and had to take my younger cousin to that concert .
Speaker 3Yeah , but they were such a sensation . I felt well , I didn't feel bad for Tiffany at the time because I was one of them doing it , but we were do you remember , heather ? Everybody booing Tiffany off the stage because we wanted new kids to come out , yeah . So yeah , in hindsight I feel bad about that , but everybody was like come on , let's just get them out here .
Speaker 2It was . It was shortly after that that I met Christine and my my music taste had to change um right around that time . Anyway , um , I don't really know . I do know , I do know there was a boy . There's always a boy . Um , will you speak of ? Yeah , yeah , um , he was a beautiful specimen of a human being .
Speaker 3And he wore his hair like Robert Smith .
Speaker 2I mean , he had the Robert Smith hair . He wore the lipstick . I'm a sucker . If you put eyeliner on , forget it .
Speaker 3Except for JD Vance .
Speaker 1Back in the day , the eyeliner in a club . That shit worked . That's all I'm going to say about that .
Speaker 3I love men in makeup . I think men should wear makeup now .
Speaker 2I never understood the whole cougar thing with women being interested in these young men , and I was like I don't know how you can be like no , thank you , I'm not interested in hearing anything that a 25 year old has to say . And then that Aussie concert I saw youngblood and I was like , oh okay , I get it , I understand now . Okay , all right , would have been all over that .
Speaker 1My first experience with Cougars was I was a young , impressionable 20-year-old working at Glamour Shour shots in the mall this is the story we want , pat .
Speaker 3We are dying for the glamour shot story okay .
Speaker 1So I start working at glamour shots , and here's the thing people do not understand how innovative it was . Stuff that happens today didn't happen back then . First , I'm going to get into that as if I have show notes in front of me . The first thing is contouring makeup . The guys who invented glamour shots they didn't invent it , but they were one of the first people to use had this whole experience of having your hair done and your makeup done and it killed Olin Mills , sears Portrait Studio , jc Penney Portrait Studio . They couldn't keep up and they lost so much market share that Olin Mills became a memory . But the thing about it was the other neat thing that we had is we gave you proofs that day , but it wasn't through the camera . The camera had a special filter that softens . You already had the contouring makeup . I had a soft focus lens , so you got those pictures and we didn't have filters back then . So this was the filter , so you got to see your face without blemishes and you got this rock star experience . But the cool part was you got to see your proofs right away . We didn't develop the film right away , we didn't have that technology , but what happened was we had a video camera , tracking the camera , and every time you hit that shutter button the video camera would take a freeze frame . So that's what you were looking at when you saw your proofs and made the decision . So the business model was it was only $30 for the session . You got up to four outfits . You got your hair done , you got your makeup done , you got to feel like a rock star and then we made the money on the backend . Average person that went in there spent like 200 to $300 in 1989 , 1990 money . 89 , 1990 money .
Speaker 1Um , so anyway , um , I don't know if this worked at all of them , but I was paired up with a hair and makeup girl . Uh , the franchise owner for my , for the location I worked at in the mall . Um , I was paired up with this girl . Her name was Alice and Alice was the short Hispanic girl who had great hustle . So if we were working on a 30 something or 40 something and we got a lot of those because it was big for real estate agents Real estate agents wanted it for their cover pictures and other sales reps . So , anyway , if she saw one of them looking at me , she would sit there , sit there and lie to him . Lie to her and say you know , he likes older women . Um you , uh , you give me a tip and uh , maybe I'll hook you up with this phone number or put in a good word for you . I've tried with him , but I'm way too young for him and she would just did you know this was going on ?
Speaker 1No , I at first . No . When I found out , I was at first mortified and then I was disappointed because I thought I was getting all this attention for free . I didn't know there was a cost and I wasn't getting a cut . And then we made a deal and I started getting a cut and we started milking it a little bit , to the point where I had these fricking 38 year old boomers , uh , sliding tips down my jeans , um , and I felt like a stripper . But it was money and I was in college .
Speaker 1So you know , my God , I am a stripper , um but more like a pimpo situation to me but no , that job was so much fun because , on a serious note , you got to make people feel good . I've had other photography jobs in my early days as an aspiring photographer and the big thing that I learned from that is you make people feel like a superstar and you encourage them into poses . You get them to lean into it and feel like a rock star . And every day we got to do that , we were underpaid , we were overworked , it was a bitch of a job , but at the end of the day you walked away knowing you made people feel good , except for prom kids . Okay , here's the scam .
Speaker 1Prom kids would come in because there came a point where they got away from . Every so often they had specials where , instead of having to pay $30 for the hair and the makeup and everything , you got the photo session for free . You know there were coupons and this thing and this thing . So a gaggle of prom girls would come in with their dresses on , thinking that they were going to game the system . They would come in , you would do their hair and makeup and then they would just leave without doing the photo shoot . And that became a problem where Glamour Shots was sending out corporate memos . So what Alice did was that contour makeup was already thick and if you were under the heat you were going to melt like a wildebeest . If you were under the heat , you were going to melt like a wildebeest .
Speaker 1So she created her own technique where she made it even extra thick , knowing what they were doing and giving it to them . So that way , by the time that they got to the dance floor and they started having their fun , their faces were going to melt and their prom was going to be ruined . And by the time it came time for their photos or even if they did the photos later on , outside in the summer sun in the Midwest , in the front yard next to the Trans
Nostalgic Self-Soothing in Dark Times
Speaker 1Am , they were going to look like shit . So we had so much fun ruining their days .
Speaker 3Alice is my hero .
Speaker 1What's that ?
Speaker 3Alice is my hero . That's amazing .
Speaker 1I have no idea what she's doing in her life . I hope I sell mod off the wall . Chance she's listening to this . But oh my God , she was great . Um , she was bold . I mean , I was . I was shy and withdrawn . I knew how to play the game and , you know , whenever I was talking to the people and encouraging them , I was playing a role . I wasn't me , but , oh my God , she knew how to hustle and she made the job fun and and I think that's something that exists to me in this day If your job sucks ass but you've got one fun person in there , you stay , because they make hell tolerable yeah yeah , that is so true , so that your time I am , I'm assuming , your time at glamour shots is , uh , what inspired the , the jenny photo shoot in the in the book uh , no , no , actually .
Speaker 1Um , I , you know I thought about having ford make that job transition , but I didn't . My father isn't a isn't a Pulitzer Prize winning photographer , but he was a journalistic photographer for the Chicago Tribune and a couple of other places and I grew up with that . And then also child modeling . When my dad , when I was 13 , my dad bought me a Pentax K1000 for Christmas and I became addicted . I got it . I understood the passion that you could point and shoot , and so I just really took it everywhere and in real life . There was a Jenny in my world and the only way to get her a portfolio was for me to do it . And , um , there was a real Nora and uh , so the inspiration was . That's how it played out .
Speaker 1I was a kid who wanted to be a photographer and because I was so down on myself all the time , I didn't know how good I was until I actually did it and had people saying , oh my God , this is great , can you do me ? Can you do me ? You know all of these other models that I knew . I'm just like , oh , you really don't think it sucks . You know , I could never believe that anybody thought my shit was good , um , so yeah , that was . That was the inspiration was um you know , my father being a photographer who divorced my mom and never paid child support , but he did teach me photography , so I got something out of the deal that's , that's what matters right I would .
Speaker 1I would prefer being able to afford braces , but you know forget eating .
Speaker 2I mean it's , it's just over . Yeah , Grilled cheese is just as good . Wow , I do want to know the ASL . Do you have a background with ASL or with Jenny ? That whole line there that you ?
Speaker 1Yes , yes , I had a sister that was born over 60% deaf and she was three years younger than me and unfortunately she's no longer with us . That's all I have to say about that . But as a child , I learned ASL , and because we were living in an abusive situation and he didn't speak it , it was our ability to have a secret language on top of it being her language . So when I met the real person that Jenny is based off of , I hadn't used ASL in five years , so I was rusty . Nowadays I can get a few phrases out , because if you don't use it , you lose it . That's the way it works with any second language . But at that point I still had enough of connection that I was able to start communicating with the real person that Jenny is based off of .
Speaker 1So , yeah , I do have experience with ASL . I never learned it formally , it's just something that just happened in the environment . No , I did take classes , never mind . But uh , most of it took place on the field of life , of just being a big brother that got into fights a lot because people would make fun of her . I was gonna beat your ass . Ford wasn't violent , I was same same .
Speaker 2Actually , my sister is way more violent than I am . Um , I was taught speak , speaking of bullies . I wasn't the bully she had , like you know . Uh , we fought a lot . My sister and I are five years apart and , um , we , we would , we would duke it out . There was some nasty , nasty fights happening . But if you came at me for any reason , I mean I've always been a little weird , I've always dressed weird , I've always been weird . There was these kids that lived across the street and they would yell things that I ate snake heads . I don't know why she cared so much that I ate snake heads . I don't know what her deal was , but she would go over there and she was like two foot , nothing . I mean , she's a very small person . She would just walk her ass over there and she did not take kindly . So , yeah , bullying is . I did have to deal with bullying and I was glad to have a younger sister to handle that for me .
Speaker 1Just as a quick as wow . I've never gone violent over snakehead , but now I'm going to have to rethink that .
Speaker 2Anyway , it's great . It's a great thing to say , like if next time you're pissed off at somebody , just say you know what you eat snakeheads . You just say you know what you eat , snake heads you eat snake heads , you bastard . What do you say to that ?
Speaker 1Anyway , writing Jenny . That was a tough decision Because I'm not deaf , I don't . I have seen bad attempts . I've got a lot of friends that are writers and I've seen bad attempts at bad representation , where somebody tries to write about a trans character but they did zero research and they still want to be patted on the back for doing a shitty job and hurting people .
Speaker 1So I reached out to a woman that I found on Instagram who's a deaf writer who writes spicy romance novels on Instagram . Who's a deaf writer who writes spicy romance novels . So she and I talked about how to write a deaf character , how to write ASL , bad tropes that are commonly used and things you might want to lean into , because people will sometimes get excited about seeing a reflection of themselves , but if the mirror is cracked it's going to hurt . Um , and between the second draft and the third draft , I had , uh , a couple of women for women , to be exact , from the deaf community that gave it what's called a sensitivity reading to make sure that Jenny wasn't falling into that . But I was left with a choice I can either make her as she was or eliminate the deaf part , and then we just have this hot redhead that can't get a modeling gig and that makes no sense .
Speaker 3Right .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 3So how did your sensitivity reads go ? How'd you get go ?
Speaker 1Actually , because I had a great Obi-Wan to help me in creating the character . I hit it out of the park and I wasn't expecting that . I was fully prepared for notes and I wasn't going to be butthurt or sensitive about it because I'm not going to reflect you poorly . I got a few notes , but most of them were gentle tweaks , not a oh you fucked it up and with low self-esteem you assume oh , I fucked everything up . Imposter syndrome is a thing , especially when you're creative .
Speaker 3Yeah , yeah , yeah , I think you did a great job . I work with high schoolers with disabilities and part of some of them are in the deaf community . We're fortunate that we have someone in management in our division that is fully deaf and he is very receptive . So anytime I have a deaf case come my way , I refer to him like this is what I have . Tell me how I should handle this , because I don't want to be offensive or insensitive to it , because I don't have any personal life experience with that . I never had anyone deaf in my life , but I really liked Jenny's character . I thought that was really cool and I loved how you guys like talked and stuck up for each other and just kind of were there for each other . It was very sweet . It's a very sweet relationship and I really enjoyed that one .
Speaker 1That means a lot . Thank you , um , jenny was fun to write because , um , you know , if you can make characters with disabilities sympathetic , or you can go into what's called disability trauma porn , where you over amplify normal things . Oh my god , look , they got out of bed this morning and they're doing this . What's your excuse ? That that's that's not celebrating someone for them . Um , and there's one particular scene that I'm in love with , um , where jenny shows ford how she enjoys music and that's actually a very real thing through the membrane of a balloon . Nowadays , people in the deaf community , they have these things called haptic vests that will interpret all of the different music around them . So , just like when we've got good Bose speakers where we can hear the mid tones , the bass and all of the different things , they can feel that at different points on the vest . So the music is this immersive experience .
Speaker 3Yeah , and that it's . I just can't say enough about how well you portrayed it , because people who are trying to be it's kind of like the I'm not racist , but and they don't even realize it but I used to have someone in my life and you know , you'd hear a news story or something of someone with a disability doing something , anything you know , and this person would be like oh , good for them . And I'm like don't ever say that to a disabled person , like , and they're like why I said that's so offensive , like , oh , look at you , yay .
Speaker 3You did so good and I could never get them to understand that . But because and I don't , I don't necessarily I mean you don't know what you don't know , and if you aren't around something it is harder to understand it , and if you aren't around something it is harder to understand it , although you can overcome because I grew up with a very racist stepfather and that never , ever appealed to me like that no-transcript invite him , so I didn't have my birthday party . I was like I'm not this person . So I mean it was bad , it was very , very racist . We yeah , it was , and the funny thing is neither of my parents are that way . So it was a culture shock . But I think it almost made me better in a way , because I got to really see it firsthand of how hateful and awful it is . So I never wanted to be like that . So , yeah , I don't even know where that came from , but it was something you said that triggered that memory .
Speaker 1So , pat , I want to hear about the Oscar Mayer kid oh , boy , um , I'll give you the short version but um , the oscar meyer kid , his name is rich . I
Glamour Shots & Mall Culture
Speaker 1don't remember his last name but , um , rich was the original oscar meyer kid . And then in later years , you remember the got milk ads , yes , and there's a little boy who's saying I'm drinking milk , I'm small and little and frail . And then there was a more athletic kid's saying I'm drinking milk , I'm small and little and frail . And then there was a more athletic kid , but now that I'm drinking milk , I have grown into macho and you want me . And that was him . He was the , he was the grown up kid . So that's those you know .
Speaker 1He had these two iconic moments in his history and I was part of community theater at the time and he was the manager of the facility and at the time that I was doing that , there was me . There was John Barrowman from Dr who fame , captain Jack Harkness . He was my first experience of having a fully out gay person that I knew . Uh , we weren't friends , but we were friendly and he totally all the shit that evangelicals were telling me completely melted away because I'm like oh my god , this guy is amazingly sweet , nice and fucking talented , unlike me . I'm just doing this for fun . He's got something going on here .
Speaker 1Um , um , andy Dick was a part of that group and he was , he was , he was not surprisingly a horrible , horrible asshole . Um , but um , we don't really talk about him that much . But no , I mean rich . Um , you know , in my world I don't keep memorabilia , I don't celebrate that time in my life . But also I wasn't doing commercials . I did one commercial , but it was . It was it was photo shoots and then when I shorted out of the industry because you know , I , you know , whenever I hit full puberty I was five , nine and a half minimum was five , 11 , and it was very firm , stop there . So I just did runway shows for proms and homecomings .
Speaker 1Um , but um , you know , he had a more full , rich career that was involved in television commercials . So when you went into his office it had all of the Oscar Meyer stuff and you know , we'd had a few encounters before community theater in our youth . So it was really kind of nice bumping into him . I remembered him . He didn't remember me , but we were able to put together the pieces and , yeah , he had his moment in the sun and he had mementos of it .
Speaker 1For me it's too connected with the trauma to celebrate . So I'm glad that he had that experience . But mine was a completely different experience . But yeah , he was just , he was a really cool guy , he was nice . But mine was completely different experience . But yeah , he was , he was just , he was a really cool guy , he was nice . But that was also his domain in his space , that theater that we were renting . You did not fuck around and want to find out . If you , if you , if you colored outside of the lines , if you did something you weren't supposed to , he'd be all over your ass . But he really cared about the theater , he cared about the community , just , really , really an amazing person .
Speaker 3Very cool . Thanks for sharing that , yeah .
Speaker 2Where can we get the book ? Let's talk about where we can get the book , how we can get the book .
Speaker 1Okay , the book . Well , first off , on Friday , the day that this episode airs allegedly allegedly friday , the 25th of july , the audiobook comes out , which I know the two of you had a chance to listen to . Uh , the voice actor . Her name is jen lantham . She is a veteran in the industry . Uh , if you've ever been forced to watch a Salesforce video about how to use Salesforce and you hear the narration or things about don't sexually assault people in HR videos , you've probably heard her voice . There was no way I could afford her . She fell in love with the project . We were able to make a negotiation for the royalties and she is all in and she can't wait for book two to hit . I love her . What she delivered to the table was amazing .
Speaker 1The audio book is coming up . Uh , before this goes live , I'll send you a link to where people can see the countdown and get it directly from um , uh , spotify , main source , but they'll also be able to get it from auto audible , itunes , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , all of those places . But honestly , I can't sing the praises of the audio book enough . When I heard her read it , it made me proud of my own work and I saw the characters differently . Uh , one quick thing before I continue to answer your question . She does something fascinating with Jenny . Pay attention to Jenny . When Jenny is speaking verbally , it's a slight monotone . When Jenny is speaking ASL , it's full vocal inflection because that's her native tongue . So you know there's little differences . And God , I love what she did with Doug . Doug is such a badass . For people who have not read the book yet , you will fall in love with Doug . He is cool .
Speaker 2I love .
Speaker 1Doug . But anyway , as far as the book itself , amazon , barnes , noble , thrift not in the stores , but online Barnes , noble , amazon , thrift Books , bookshoporg , all of the places that you buy books online , bookshoporg , all of the places that you buy books online . And if you do go to bookshoporg , what's amazing about them is you can choose your favorite local bookstore as if the purchase came from them and they get their cut as if you picked it up from their shelf . So this is a way to support your local bookstore without and still , buy online , or you can feel free to ask them for it . And the audio , audiobook or not , the audiobook , the e-book , is available in all of those spaces .
Speaker 1But , um , affordability in this dystopian age is , um , really something that matters to me , because not everybody can afford books and I think everybody needs an escape . And it's not like my book is in every library , it's only two and they're here in the Chicago suburbs . But , um , if you go to my publisher's site , barnstormerorg that's my publisher Uh , they have the audio book available for a dollar 99 . And you know , I mean that that is there specifically to make it approachable for everyone , because the book itself is $16.99 . That's not in reach of everybody . The normal price for the e-book is $4.99 . But even that is a stretch for some people . So two bucks and you're in . You get to at least enjoy the e-book . So those are the spaces that you can get it .
Speaker 1And my next public appearance if you go to my website at patgreenauthorcom , my next public appearance is actually going to be in a mall in Joliet in August . I decided to hook up with the craft fair vendors that hang out in the middle of malls and I'm going to have a table and pitch the book there and present and I'm going to test it If it sells there . The fee to get into Fox Valley Mall , where the book is set , is actually more than double . So if I can make a case and have it sell in a mall , you bet your ass I'm going to go there and hustle it on the side .
Speaker 1But yeah , the places you can get it all the places you normally buy bookstores buy online . But because I'm not a big fan of people that like writing dick-shaped rockets into space and sending pop stars up there , honestly , if you go to bookshoporg , you can choose a local bookstore and support your favorite bookstore and help them out while going to me , and obviously you can go to barnstormercom . I get a bigger cut that way and we're soon going to be launching for people that want an autographed copy . People could go to that website , spend 20 bucks . I'll sign it . I'll mail it to you personally .
Speaker 2Oh , excellent .
Speaker 3That's great .
Speaker 1I can make arrangements after the show , we can talk and we can get you one . You gave me an opportunity to be on one of my favorite podcasts . Well , I am your number one fan , which I don't want that pressure , because all I can think of when you told me that was misery .
Speaker 3You are the best kind of number one fan . I mean you stroke our egos and you we . We will text each other on Fridays and be like I can't wait for Pat to listen . Why hasn't Pat listened yet ? I want to know what Pat thinks of this episode . Pat to listen .
Speaker 1Why hasn't Pat listened , yet I want to know what Pat thinks of this episode . I get to have fun and dig deep into my weird little cultural references because the beginning spots when you two are in better moods and the world isn't about to end and we haven't lost two cultural icons in a week . You guys go into these amazing tangents and I'm just like , yep , yep , I wish I could be there in that room , light up a joint and say , yeah , but what about ? And just have this free flow . Adhd hour .
Speaker 3Yeah , and , and I'd love to hear that because that's what we wanted to do Like we pick a topic but we don't want to be typical and just run through like blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . Like we want to relate our lives and our memories based on this topic and then we hope to spark that in other people and and we do for you . So that's awesome . And I want to pay 20 bucks for your book . I don't want to .
Speaker 1We'll talk afterwards . It'll be easier to make . It'll be easier to make the transaction to me saying all right , here's my phone number for this . Now your address it . We'll take that order . But if you do have any fans , let's put this out there If you're , because I've got copies on stock . If your fans reach out and they give you guys the 20 , we can make the arrangements and I'll let you guys have a portion of that as a tip .
Speaker 2We'll fund the show . Okay , well , well , well , yes .
Speaker 1And if and if you edit that part out , that's fine , but let's do something and tie it into the show .
Speaker 2Do you know how little editing I actually do ? It is just we run it and then I take out like the pauses and the arms and the . Sometimes Nicole likes to get right up on the mic and that's all I edit out .
Speaker 1OK , because I have zero editing skills . Every time I do a 30 or 45 second reel on Instagram , that is two hours of work , because I do take after take , after take after take , until there's no ums , ahs , awkward pauses , or I don't fumble on a reward and by the time I'm done , I'm like I hate this . I don't know how anybody does TikTok and is not a drug addict and I need to stay sober , so I'm not going to do another one of these for a month .
Speaker 3Yeah , I mean , our conversations are real . It's one take Once in a while , really . If we stop and rewind , it's one take once in a while , it really . If we stop and rewind , it's because our tongues are like and we can't get it out and we have to stop and be like okay , let me try this again , but other than that it's it's . It's one take and one and done , like that's it . But that's how we talk to each other and that's why heather was right when she sent me that text . We should do a podcast , because we're brilliant and we're smart and we have really awesome , amazing opinions and we knew we wanted to share it with the world so what I'm hearing is you're smart enough , you're good enough and doggone it .
Speaker 1People like you .
Speaker 2We're definitely gonna have to have you on again , because this was so much fun that would be a blast .
Speaker 1um , yeah , the the only thing that I will say in shameless plug land is um , if you want to appreciate a walk down memory road in the 80s , embrace the nostalgia but also remember the beauty of found family . Um , it's a phenomenal book . The reviews that I'm starting to get online from mostly the women makes me realize that I've struck the chord that I wanted to , and there's two reviews from , there's a couple , there's more reviews from men now , but my first review from a male was hilarious . It was .
Speaker 1It was a guy in the UK on Amazon UK , and he wrote this book is about crimes committed against women and they think it's their fault and this is wrong . And you could tell that this little light just came on in this guy's eyes and then he closed it with if you have a daughter , you need to buy them this book , you know , for this was the first time realizing that some of the things that Cassie's going through is on a daily for too many women , most of them . If I were in a room , if I go to a high school reunion , I can probably count on one hand how many women haven't been through something , and they're probably lying .
Speaker 3Yeah , you're exactly right . I mean it's so , especially before . It was just prevalent . I mean , that was just how it was and nowadays men are so offended like can't say anything anymore , blah , blah , blah , blah . Like I was in a casino a few years back and a young girl was a floor attendant and this nasty old man in his seventies she's paying out his thing and his hands on her ass . And I'm I was a cocktail waitress for 14 years , so I
Writing Authentically About Disability
Speaker 3put up with a lot of in a casino and , uh , I can't keep my mouth shut . So he says to her what's your name , sweetheart ? And I was like whoa , whoa , whoa . You don't even know this girl's name and you have your hand on her ass and and he of course , starts cussing me out and and his , he actually said you can't even , you can't have any fun anymore . You're not allowed to do anything anymore . I'm like , yeah , you're not allowed to grope young women , right .
Speaker 1For whatever it's worth , I do not let the locker room go unchallenged . If you say it in front of me , I'm going to speak up and , um say something directly to their face , because it's not okay . When the Me Too movement first came out , a friend of mine , who I respect greatly , he posted guys , you need to shut up and pay attention . And I'm like , okay , so I did . And then I started asking myself some really uncomfortable questions . Have I ever used guilt to get what I want out of somebody ? Has I ? Have I ever used alcohol as a lubricant ? Have I ever , um lied ? Have I ever ? And some of those answers were uncomfortable , yeses , and I think that in you know , I mean , we have a lot of progressive men that are falling by the wayside and being exposed , and I think that's because they pat themselves on the back for not having raped somebody in an alley , but they've never asked themselves the hard questions , because that toxic masculinity that is ingrained in us , that is part of our culture , that is what we grew up in . We were raised in the locker room and we were seeking acceptance but the okay . So , yeah , we , we were programmed , but we are full ass grown adults who are responsible for our behaviors and if we analyze it , we can stop it . And if we see it , we shouldn't be silent , not just because that's somebody's daughter , not because that's somebody's mom , not because of any of that shit , but because it's just wrong and it's inhumane . And I am sorry , but consent is sexy .
Speaker 1I'm going to close this rant with a fun little story . I was in a relationship with a girl uh dated her 2016 through 2018 . And one day I was pouty because she got dirty flirty while we were out to dinner . When we got back to my place , her mood changed and I got pouty about it . So she took me outside and she's like , let's go have a cigarette . I'm like , oh shit . So we go outside and she goes .
Speaker 1I know what you're pouting about and it's really fucking childish . And if you think that's going to win your case , it's not . One of the great things about this relationship is you taught me not to let men talk to me in such a manner , and I'll be goddamned if it's you who does that . And then , from there , we had this conversation about how that was a pattern that I did that I was unaware of . I got pouty if I didn't get my candy after dinner . And so what happened was our conversations . There was no impromptu sexy time . We had full on conversations to make sure both people were on the same page , and I got to tell you that it sounds weird and guys saying , oh , you can't talk about anything . I promise you , if you have a full line consensual conversation and everybody's feeling it , it's fucking amazing .
Speaker 2Yeah , yep , yep , it it's fucking amazing .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah and it's that simple . You don't have to read the room , you don't have to take a guess , you don't have to stretch your arm at the movie theater and do that . You just hey , you wanna no . And then your response is like oh okay , cool yeah , and you want to play some uno right , and it's those little learning moments that are so important .
Speaker 3One of my favorite quotes is by maya angelo , and it's those little learning moments that are so important . One of my favorite quotes is by Maya Angelou , and it's do the best you can until you know better and then do better . So you really it's not . You know you weren't trying to make her feel that way or feel that some sort of way , but luckily you two had the communication where she could tell you hey , stop . And you were like you know what , you're right and you've learned from that and you'll never do it again .
Speaker 1And a little bit of that spilled into Ford . A little bit of conversations like that spilled into Ford . Because what Ford does well is I wanted Ford to be one of the best book boyfriends that anybody's ever had , but I didn't want him to be the white knight in shining armor , like in the Lifetime videos . It's always the sensitive , handsome guy who , when he takes off his shirt and dockers , he also happens to be cut . Ford's Ford is not heroic . What Ford does is Ford listens , give space and believes and he's a supporting character . Doing that , uh , he might be the protagonist , but he is that hero because he's able to support and that's what makes him awesome . And you get to see cassie stand up and she even calls him out when he crosses a line too far trying to stick up for her and she's like that's not what I want . I want you here , not out there playing fucking Rambo .
Speaker 2Right , I really did feel like Ford Was a More of a I don't want to say modern man , but a much more Sympathetic To the situation , to Cassie , than than most men .
Speaker 1Well , the Easter egg for Ford is , um , the Easter egg for Ford is part of my creation of him was saying what happens if a little boy grew up and actually listened to Mr Rogers . What kind of man does he become ? I love that . And how does he overcome all of those other voices , um , the Jeffs , the dogs , this that you know ? And he does look up to Doug , but Doug also isn't an asshole , um , you know , I mean , doug has his own characteristics , he's this big brother figure , um , and , and I love him because he's more of what we think of in the modern man that you brought up , heather , he really , you know , he can be strong and tough . I mean , oh my God , if , if there was an 80s version of what's his name ? The , the actor who plays the Mandalorian .
Speaker 2Oh , oh .
Speaker 1Pedro Pascal , yes , pedro Pascal . If there was an 80s version of Pedro Pascal , doug would be Pedro Pascal in the womb , still meticulating . But I don't know if meticulating is a word , we'll fucking go with it . I love it . But yeah , is is like what happens if you actually listen , what happens if you pay attention . And the key question is is there strength in that ? And the answer , in my opinion , is yes , and that's for every sensitive guy out there who is told that they're not enough , who is told that they're beta . It's like no , this is your fucking superpower , this is your strength . And any guy that's going to get up in your face wearing a snapback and thinking that they're the shit and they can't step up and elevate their clothing game and can't listen to good music , fuck them , you're better yep , you know who ford is .
Speaker 2Nicole , I'll tell you who matt , my brother-in-law matt yes , I like him already the oh he is .
Speaker 2I've had a crush on him since her sister met him he's the most amazing , he is the most amazing human being to if , like , if you can't get along with him , there's something very wrong with you . Like it's , he's just one of those people that , um , no , no , two people are more suited for each other than my sister and her husband . It's just impossible . It's just they've been together . It's like 20 , 20 , some odd . Well , the boy will be just turned 20 . So 24 years now I think they've been together and , um , uh , he's . He's petrified of my sister , as he should be .
Speaker 2Um she he and he's petrified of my sister , as he should be . Nobody treats their wife like a queen like he does . I mean she is .
Speaker 3He will act up if he needs to . If you come for his family , forget it . We'll keep that one too . Oh yeah , yeah , yeah , but it's happened multiple times , yes I , it's just but .
Speaker 2But who I was actually ? And it just dawned on me now that I was thinking it was , um , my brother-in-law , matt , but who I actually pictured when I was reading , it was christine's matt yep , I knew that's who you meant when you said that . Yeah , but then it don't know me , maybe . Maybe all mats are like that .
Speaker 3The best thing about Christine's mat was that we were in the same chemistry class and we were a year younger than her , and she would come to the door to get him Cause back then you could just walk out of class . What were the ? Oh yeah , and I would go with them .
Speaker 1So Christine would come around me and matt up and we'd go skip class together and it was awesome . I was the photographer for the school paper and they gave me a laminated hall pass and I would just say , yeah , I gotta take a picture . And I I senior year . I don't think I was hardly in any of my classes .
Speaker 2I showed up on finals , took the test , graduated because that's how it worked you were so lucky you could not get away with that shit at private school . To save first , there was only 20 of us in the whole class , so if one of us is missing it's pretty obvious right , wait a minute where's the one that looks weird ?
Speaker 2she's called out . Yeah , there was no skipping school in my , in my world plus , everybody knows me so and I drove like the most obvious car on the planet earth . So if I were to leave school and drive through the small towns that we live in , everyone knows my mom and everyone knows my dad . Everybody knows my uncle because they have had businesses here , I still to this day . Just the other day I got oh , are you Dave's daughter ? I still can't get away with it . So I could never have never skipped school . I could never have get away with it . So I couldn't . I could never , have never skipped school . I could never have gotten away with it . You missed out . I know I'm so sad .
Speaker 1Invisibility had its advantages .
Speaker 2You know what , though ? I'll tell you what happened , though . Once I went to the University of Delaware where you are , anana like nobody could give two shits about where you are . That's when it all went horribly wrong . That's where it went . That's where it went Well , she , she did it to me . I'm a good student and I was a good girl until I met her .
Speaker 3Ok , that's when I would call you and say , hey , you want to go to the mall and you couldn't because you were had had too much vodka , that's okay .
Speaker 1I went to a very repressive Christian college . Long story I was studying to be a minister . They manipulated me into that path but when I was there I still had my dark side , which was actually a good side . I went to Rocky horror . I still smoked weed on the side , but anyway I was an RA sophomore year big mistake . So basically I would catch kids with weed and I'd be like , hey , I'm confiscating that , but I'm not going to report you . You'd be expelled for this . And then I'd go sell it behind the bowling alley and make money . I was God , but there was a huge . My point was public school and then going to a private Christian college .
Speaker 1They had so many weird rules that made Footloose look like a free-for-all . We couldn't watch R-rated movies . We couldn't go to dances . There's an old joke about the denomination I was with . How come ? How come hold on ? How come Assemblies of God is so against premarital sex ? The answer is because it will lead to dancing . Dancing was the ultimate , ultimate sin for the denomination . I was part of my senior prom date , christy , and I hope she's listening . She was threatened to lose leadership at her church for going to prom with me because there would be dancing . And also was Kat Green and she went anyway and we weren't even dating . We went as friends , but I was . I was that evil and the dancing would be there and god only knows what could happen . What happened was we had a great time . Then we went to the city , then we almost got shot by a guy driving a newspaper truck , then we went to the dunes yeah , sounds like a good night that was a normal .
Speaker 2That was a normal , ladies prom that's why we have to have you on again , because we I wanted to get into discussing how the 80s and 90s and gen x the gen x experience is different from the east coast , where we are , to the midwest and oh my god , that was on the show notes .
Speaker 1I completely , yeah , we got trailed off . That will be a fun conversation . Yes , I'm down for whenever I'm off on Tuesdays , yeah perfect .
Speaker 3So when does the next book come out ? Have you started it ?
Speaker 1Yes , I'm actually done with the first draft and my editor has started giving I her . I'm gonna feed these to you . You cannot give me notes until I'm done with the first draft . I can't think back , that's gonna fuck me up , right ? So I have just finishing editing . I've just finished these edits of chapters one and two for the second draft , and the release date is black friday because that's where the book starts , so we're gonna have black friday at the mall excellent .
Speaker 3Oh my gosh , I love it I'm excited .
Speaker 1Yes , yeah , and that one will take us um into winter of 88 and ends in 89 . And then book three will take us into the 90s .
Speaker 2Oh , the 90s .
Speaker 3Oh , the 90s .
Speaker 1Yeah , the hair and clothes are going to be less awesome . So is the music , but you know .
Speaker 2You know you can't walk into a Target now and think that you're not in the 90s anymore . Sure .
Speaker 1I can't promise when we get to that third book that I'm not going to talk about Molly .
Speaker 3Oh , alright , now we're getting somewhere .
Speaker 2I was just talking about Molly the other day . Anyway , we definitely have to have you on again , because this was a blast . See , heather I told you not to be nervous . Look bro , I'm nervous all the time .
Speaker 1Anyway , I was nervous when I woke up this morning oh , I stress , ate macadamia nuts and chain smoked while I was waiting for the call .
Speaker 2I didn't get the chain smoke because I'm at my mom's house and I'm now out of macadamia nuts and those fuckers are expensive .
Speaker 3Yeah , they are . I took a nap before this .
Speaker 1I'm jealous .
Speaker 3Well , I had a sinus headache , so it wasn't a fun nap , but it was a nap .
Speaker 1All naps are fun , no matter what If Comet's coming take a nap .
Speaker 2Yeah , as well . Yeah , yeah as well yeah , so yeah , we got . We're gonna wrap it up because , hey , it's 1500 million degrees in this room now . Well , thank you , pat , for being here .
Speaker 1We appreciate it yeah , thank you for having me we're gonna do it again .
Speaker 2Uh , yeah , you can follow us on all the socials . At likewhateverpod , you can . Nicole's going to post all of Pat's socials on there . You can send us an email about how you would like to read Pat's book at likewhatever , at gmailcom , or don't like whatever .
Speaker 3Whatever , whatever , bye , bye , see you .
