Meg's Got a Mother of a Book

In Season 3 Episode 11: Meg’s Got a Mother of a Book, the bookish biddies wrap up their “Mothers of Romance” month with two wildly different historical romances — one delightful Scottish murder mystery romance and one rage-inducing classic that sparks one of the most passionate discussions in Romance on the Rocks history. 

Nicole reviews The Bride by Julie Garwood, a 1989 historical Scottish romance featuring enemies-to-lovers tension, marriage of convenience, witty banter and a murder mystery woven through the Highlands. Jamie Jamison may have a terrible sense of direction, but she quickly becomes one of Nicole’s favorite historical romance heroines thanks to her intelligence, strength and dagger-throwing abilities.

Meanwhile, Meghan tackles The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss — sometimes considered the novel that launched modern romance publishing as we know it. What follows is less a review and more a full-scale reckoning with outdated romance tropes, sexual violence in vintage romance novels, and the way generations of readers were taught to mistake manipulation and abuse for love.

Along the way, Nicole and Meghan discuss:

• The evolution of romance novels from the 1970s to today
• Why modern readers expect communication and consent
• Gorgeous historical world-building versus harmful content
• Why decolletage suddenly appears in every book

The episode also previews June’s theme, “The Great Outdoors,” featuring:

Highest Point by Kels and Denise Stone

Southern Seducer by Jessica Peterson

Grab a drink, avoid the rapey historical dukes, and join the bookish biddies for one of their most unfiltered episodes yet.

Meghan's Book & Beverage: The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss with Sangria

Nicole's Book & Beverage: The Bride by Julie Garwood with The Highland Vow

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Transcript

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Nicole: 

Well, good even’.  I’m Nicole Danielle.

Meghan: 

And I'm Meghan: Leigh and this is Romance on the Rocks where two bookish biddies imbibe and talk about romance novels. And boy, have we got a show for you today. This is our final Mothers of Romance theme for…

Nicole: 

for the month of May, yes.

Meghan:

…yeah, for the month of May and boy do I got a mother for you.

Nicole:

Well, I'm excited to hear all about it. But first, let's talk about our drinks for the episode. Meghan, what are you drinking this evening?

Meghan: 

I went ahead and made myself some sangria. I do have some more in the fridge. There's a nice little pitcher. I made it out of my Spanish wine and some brandy and all of the mixed fruits, as you will. And I did this specifically because my book had a lot of brandy drinking and wine drinking. And I figured, let's just combine the two. Just a quick side note…

Nicole: 

I love us, Sangria.

Meghan: 

…my book was written in 1972, which was still the heyday of women drinking while pregnant. And there is a pregnancy in my book and she drinks the whole way through this novel.

Nicole: (01:13)

God.

Meghan:

What about you, Nicole?

Nicole:

I am drinking a beverage called the Highland Vow.

Meghan: 

You guys, she's shaking it. She's shaking it mighty hard.

Nicole: (01:30)

Normally, Meghan, you know, I like to get things all cute in a little cocktail glass of some type with some fruity accoutrements for display purposes. Now, I am just mason jarring this shit up because it's been a hell of a day with work and whatnot.

Meghan: (01:44)

We're going opposites then because usually I'm the one drinking out of a mason jar. 

Nicole: (01:51)

Yes.

Meghan:

I went out today and specifically bought this crystal wine glass specifically for this podcast. I went to the thrift store. I ran in. The girl knows me well. I walked in and she goes, hey, 10 cents a book today. Or fill a bag for a dollar. And I'm like, I'm only here for a wine glass.

Nicole:

How can you resist, Meg?

Meghan: (02:09)

Well, one cart of books and two wine glasses later, you know. I spent $2.36 today at the thrift store. was delightful. Anyway, so yeah, I'm doing more of a you and you're doing more of a me. Love it. Cheers.

Nicole: (02:18)

Alright.

Yeah, so in this is a Scottish Scotch, Scotch whiskey…

Meghan:

Scotch, Scotch, Scotch. 

Nicole:

Scottish Scotch, some lemon juice and a little splooge of honey, a little splooge of syrup if you will.

Meghan:

Splooge is not the correct word. 

Nicole: 

Are you sure?

Meghan:

Also, it is not common, not common to have scotch as a cocktail. That's one of those that there are there are few recipes that's getting more common, but I applaud you.

Nicole:

This is reminding me actually of like a penicillin, which is typically scotch and some lemon juice and honey. So this is right up my alley.

Meghan: 

I'm not knocking it, it sounds good.

Nicole:

Yeah.

Meghan: 

Okay, so we're mothering.

Nicole: 

We're mothering something.

Meghan:

We're mothering and you get to give birth first here.

Nicole:

Okay.

Well, I read “The Bride” by Julie Garwood. It's actually a really beautiful cover. This is not the first iteration of the cover for this particular novel, but I do think it's delightful. The girl on it, kind of, Meghan, if you can see. I don't know how familiar you are with the Chronicles of Narnia movies. 

Meghan: 

Yeah, fairly. Yeah, that does look like the older sister, doesn't it? As soon as you said Chronicles of Narnia, I knew exactly what you're getting at.

Nicole:

Yeah, it does. Thank you. Thank you.

Meghan:

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Nicole: (03:44)

Right. So a Narnia daughter looking bride. What I find funny and we talk about this all the time…

Meghan:

Meghan: (03:48)

Susan, right? Susan, that's the name. 

Nicole:

Susan, I think so.

Meghan:

Okay.

Nicole:

 You and I talk about this all the time. Covers not matching the actual story. So in this story, the wedding dress she actually wore to be spiteful to her groom was all black. So a beautiful white dress not.

Meghan:

Yeah.

Nicole: 

Yeah, not really what was happening in the actual story. All right, show notes. This book is by Julie Garwood. was originally published in 1989. And this particular edition was printed in 2022. But I'm pretty sure they didn't really change much is my understanding, but I could be totally wrong.

Meghan: 

All right.

Nicole: 

The subgenre we're dealing with is historical romance slash Scottish romance slash a touch of murder mystery Our tropes are enemies to lovers and marriage of convenience

So our main characters are Jamie Jamison, a young English woman of some nobility. Her father's a baron. That makes her a lady. I don't fucking know how that shit works.

Meghan: 

Whoa, whoa…SHE is Jamie Jameson? I thought the dude was Jamie Jameson.

Nicole: (04:57)

No, no, she is Jamie Jamison.

Meghan: (05:01)

Okay.

Nicole: (05:02)

Running gag throughout the whole book is people like, why do you have a dude's name? Anyway, she is an excellent horsewoman and something of a nurse with some healing and medical knowledge. Then we have Alec Kincaid, a fierce and mighty Scottish Lord and a widower. The plot line, both the English King and the Scottish King have issued edicts that Alec Kincaid and his friend Daniel Ferguson are to wed two of Baron Jameson's four daughters.

They choose out of the four daughters, Jamie and Mary respectively, as they seem the most mature, level-headed and intelligent. Both the men and the women have preconceived notions and prejudices against each other. The Scotsmen think the women are emotional, weak and essentially property, while the women think the men are barbarians and thick-headed louts. You know, the ush.

Meghan: 

Mm-hmm.

Nicole: 

Right off the bat, they start to realize that neither is what they seem at least for Alec and Jamie. She helps defend her sister and even kills a man by throwing a dagger at him when they are set upon by bandits enroute to Scotland. 

Meghan: 

Good on ya!

Nicole:

Yeah, she's fierce and fabulous. 

Meghan:

Yeah.

Nicole:

So that happens when they are enroute to Scotland after the wedding.

Nicole: 

And Jamie learned Gaelic from her family's stable master, so she knows what the Scots are saying, even if she doesn't reveal that she can right away, but she's got some hidden talents. Alec's first wife was murdered three years prior, and throughout the story, there are italicized sections from the murderer's point of view. So you're totally trying to figure out who the murderer is, as they also plot to kill Jamie.

Meghan: 

I love this.

Nicole: 

Right? In the midst of a couple of murder attempts on her life, tries genuinely to settle into life in the Highlands with her new husband. They do have fairly instant chemistry, what with the witty banter and all, so that definitely helps things. Both Alec and Jamie are stubborn in their own ways, and Alec loves messing with Jamie and teasing her, but they both truly are trying to make the marriage work in their own ways. Alec promises he'll always be patient and never take a hand to Jamie.

He also wants to ease her workload because she was basically a servant for her older siblings and stepfather. He sees things in her he appreciates like her determinedness as well as her emotional and physical strength. And he sees how hard she's trying to fill her role as the Laird's wife. Jamie has a penchant for disaster and mishaps though. And it leads to a lot of problems like potential wars with other Highland clans. No big deal.

But over the time, the two fall in love and work through their challenges. And in the end, the murderer is revealed. And it turns out all the mishaps actually led to something really awesome at the end of the book, which I'm not going to spoil because I do think this is a good readable book, even as old as it is. Spice level, I'm putting this at jalapeno. There are some sex scenes, but they're not overly explicit or gratuitous.

Things I loved, lots of humorous moments in witty banter. Example, when Jamie and Mary are marrying Alec and Daniel in a double wedding. The priest asks Mary if she'd take Daniel for her husband and her response is, "'Tis the truth I'd rather not, father."

Meghan: 

Hahaha

Nicole: 

which made me chuckle. Also, Jamie has horrible scents of direction, which leads to all manner of mishaps and is a delightful running gag throughout the book. The mystery of who the murderer was, I loved that part because unlike another recent historical romance I read for the podcast, A Lady's Guide to Mischief and Mayhem, I was desperately trying to figure out who the murderer was up until the very end in the reveal. And it was totally not.

Anyone I suspected. So snaps for Julie Garwood on that.

Julie Garwood's writing style and character development also loved that she is easy to read, easy to get drawn into, and it is easy to stay engaged. The whole time I was staying with our friends, Lori and Andy, while I was up in Wisconsin for the past two weeks, I kept saying to Lori, I was like, I have to find out who the murderer is. And so I was going to bed at like a fairly not like

sleeping going to bed, but I was going to my room to read like fairly early in the evening because I was dying to know. Challenges in this book? I had none. No challenges. My final thoughts? This was a delightful romp through the highlands and I fully enjoyed this novel and would recommend it for fans of historical romances. I give it five out of five stars and I would definitely read more of Garwood if her other books are anything else like this one. So yeah, that's what I got.

Meghan: 

Nice little golf clap here.

Nicole: 

Golf clap, golf clap, golf clap. It was quite lovely, lovely.

Meghan: 

I’m a little bit envious of the fact that your book was a five out of five stars. I finished three books this week. One of them was called The Plot and the Pendulum. It was a library murder mystery and I knew who the murderer was the second time the name was mentioned in the book. I don't think I was supposed to. So…

Nicole: 

Okay.

Meghan: 

I’m a little envious of the fact that yours actually had some mystery to it. I read the Heartless one. The second, yeah. I got it from the library. I didn't get a chance to read it until they sent me my overdue notice and I'm like, better get on that one. So read the Heartless one. Friggin' love that. That's an Emma Ham for anybody who doesn't know. And now I'm gonna have to wait for the third one in the series.

Nicole: 

Yes! I still haven't read the Deathless One! I'm dying, Meg!

Meghan: 

Wonderful, loved it. And I also finished the book for this evening. The Flame and the Flower by Kathleen Woodiwiss. Boy, kids, buckle up.

Nicole: 

This is our first Woodiwiss, correct?

Meghan: 

I've never read any of hers before and let me preface this with this is the mother of the romance novel genre as we know it. 

Nicole: 

Really?

Meghan:

If you do any research going back, Kathleen Woodiwiss wrote the very first romance novel that spurred all of these other authors to take up arms and go at it. And the book she wrote was the “Flame and the Flower”, which is what I read for this evening. And I'm pretty sure that's why I actually picked it. I picked this a while back, so I forgot that until I did my research again.

Nicole: 

So it's not because of Barbara Cartland? Oh my god.

Meghan: 

No, 100 % no. It is Kathleen Woodiwiss because she wrote very engaging historical fiction with beautiful scenery, making strong female characters and just these epic kinds of things, showing real sex, which up until that point had not really been part of the books. So pretty much everything we know starts here, guys.

I need to give a giant trigger warning and we have not been doing trigger warnings for a while.

Nicole: 

Yeah, we stopped doing them because we were like anything is triggering

Meghan: 

Yeah, no, anything can be triggering. I will tell you my entire book was a giant trigger. 

Trigger warning to those of you out there who may have some trauma in your past regarding forceful sexual encounters and in general, rape. This book is rife with that from beginning to end.

Nicole: 

Oof.

Meghan:

So if this is a sensitive subject for you, if this is not something that you can feel comfortable with listening to the podcast tonight, please, your safety and your mental health is way more important than listening to me bash this book. Just know that that's what I will be doing for most of this and you can walk away and come back next week when we will be doing something else. Not next week, two weeks from now. You know what I'm saying, kids.

I just, love you too much and I want you to stick around. So trigger warnings here. I love you. I'll see you next time. If you think you can handle it, stick around with me because this was a book. “The flame and the flower” was published in 1972. 

In my opinion, the premise doesn't even matter. So…

Nicole: 

My god, seriously?

Meghan: 

…so here's the quick and dirty. The year is 1799 in England and a young woman named Heather lives with her abusive aunt and her neglectful uncle. Those two allow a distant relative to take Heather to the big city with promises that he will get her enrolled in this exclusive boarding school. The same night that this relative whisks her away to London, he tries to rape her. He fails.

And at first, we're like, “yay!” And we're relieved that Heather gets away unscathed and unsullied. But on that very evening, as she escapes to the streets of London, she gets mistaken for a prostitute. 

Enter our leading man, Brandon, who succeeds where the distant relative fails, as Brandon rapes her with extreme disregard.

Nicole: 

No.  If he thought she was a prostitute, he wasn't just like working out the terms first and paying her. Like, I don't understand the approach. 

Meghan: 

We'll get to that.

Nicole:

Okay, nevermind.

Meghan:

Let's just move forward here briefly. Several weeks later, when her shitty family realizes she's pregnant, Heather is now forced to marry Brandon. She's then taken away from her native England and shipped to Charleston, South Carolina as Brandon's unwilling wife. What follows is hundreds of pages of extremely well-written garbage, a plethora of pages.  Too many damn pages. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Instead of prattling on, as I normally do, I am instead going to perform for you…

Nicole:

No!

Meghan: 

…the abridged version of Brandon and Heather's relationship…

Nicole: 

No. Okay. Shut the fuck up.

Meghan: 

…quote by quote - to save you the trouble of ever reading this 484 page monstrosity for yourself.

Nicole: 

God, here we go.

Meghan: 

Are you ready?

Nicole: 

Fucking ready.  Bring it on

Meghan: 

All right, we're gonna take a sip…

“Brandon saw before him a small woman, gracefully slender with breasts full and round, generously tempting, swelling above her gown. He moved closer and in rapid movement slipped his arm around her narrow waist, nearly lifting her from the floor, and then covered her mouth with his. She was too surprised to resist and hung limp in his embrace. She could not free herself and her hands pushed in vain against his chest. With a frightened squeak, she tried to flee. She ducked under his arm and sank her teeth into his wrist.”

“’No,’ she gasped, ‘leave me alone, let me be!’”

“’No, my bloodthirsty little wench. No, not now.’” 

He rapes her for the first time.

“She lay unresponsive, yet his long-starved passions grew, and soon he thrust deep within her. Tears came to her eyes. She turned to the wall and lay, softly sobbing.  His mind was confused by the turn of events, her calm reserved acceptance of the situation when she first entered the cabin, her light and playful resistance, and then the sporadic, inexperienced assistance she had given him in bed. But now this endless weeping and blood on the sheets! The sobbing had finally ceased. He pressed his bearded mouth to the pink crust of her breast.” 

“’Don't, she gasped, don't do that!’”

“He raises his heated gaze, smiling. ‘You'll have to get used to my caresses.’”

Heather: ‘No, please no, not again. Don't hurt me again. Just let me go.’ 

Brandon: ‘I won't hurt you this time, my sweet.’

“Heather began to fight in earnest. She held her knees tightly together while she sought to scratch or claw him anywhere she could, but always a hand or elbow was there to stem her effort. He laughed as if enjoying her struggles.”

He rapes her for a second time.

“She scurried from him and cowered in the corner of the bunk, eyes wide filled with hurt and fear like a wounded fawn. He watched her with a puzzled frown. He realized with some surprise, it was he who frightened her.”

Brandon then remarks to her regarding the status of her as a supposed prostitute. 

“‘I can't imagine why you peddled your virginity as you did, taking the chance that you might have been raped and lost it for nothing.’” 

Okay, interjection. He makes that remark as though he did not personally just rape her twice. Continuing. 

Heather retorts: ‘I wasn't peddling my wares in the streets. I was simply lost and couldn't find my way.’

“He watched those pale round breasts and his frown deepened as he wondered, what repercussions there would be for his deed?” 

After he finds out that she is not rich or well-connected, he quote unquote, “smiles in relief” and states, ‘there's no reason then, Heather, why you can't stay with me and be my mistress. Do you think I'm going to let you sneak away from me? You're too unique to find a replacement for, and I have no intentions of letting you slip through my fingers.’

Heather: ‘Must you keep torturing me again and again?’

Brandon: ‘You might as well accept your lot as my paramour, my sweet. You fought me twice now and the last time caused your own misery. This time, you will relax and let me do as I want without a struggle. Just lie still and don't fight me. For now, just learn to accept it.’

He rapes her for a third time.

Nicole: 

Gross gross gross gross gross gross gross fucking gross…

Meghan: 

Mm-hmm.

Nicole:

…and he's completely unapologetic that he fucking…my god

Meghan:

Hold on, we're not quite done.

Nicole: 

GOD!

Meghan: 

Heather: ‘Don't touch me,’ she cried. 

“’Shall I make you purr, my sweet?’”

“’Doesn't it matter to you that I do not wish to be here? I am not one of your strumpets, nor do I have the desire to be.’”

“’You do not wish it now, my love, but later you will.’” 

So that, my friends, is from their first meeting until page 51.

He rapes her a minimum of three times, if not four.

Nicole: 

In under 50 pages? ⁓ my fucking god, okay. Well now I understand your rage about the fucking book.

Meghan: 

That's the beginning. That is the beginning. Okay.  Right and the reason I said this would be a big DNF for you immediately, you know…

Nicole: (20:07)

100%. I would have DNF'd so fucking fast.

Meghan:

…yeah.  

So now let's pretend for a moment you guys that I could forgive this book for trying to force the premise that rape is okay as long as it's all just one big misunderstanding. Oops! Maybe I could look past that plot point given that the book was written in 1972 and as a society we hadn't quite fully embraced “no means no” or bodily autonomy. Maybe. 

But the fact that he rapes her three times within those pages with a fourth attempt and then threatens to rape her more times than that, most of his sexual advances come after he has been made fully aware that she was not a prostitute or a willing participant. He's constantly utilizing his position of power to keep her compliant, the whole while basically telling her that he has ownership over her and her future. So it's not any longer something I can turn a blind eye to. It's not like the first time it happens, he finds out and you're like, fuck, that's a really crappy way for these two to be introduced, but he's trying to make amends the whole time? 

No, that is not what's happening here. It is a powerless woman in powerless times being abused repeatedly and then given over to her abuser and being told that she should be grateful for the opportunity.

Nicole: 

That actually makes me like kind of nauseous, honestly. Yeah.

Meghan: 

Yeah. I'd love to say that there was growth in the book, that Brandon suddenly recognized his behavior was abominable and that he was the villain.

Nicole: 

Meghan, why don't I the feeling that Brandon's just a complete asshat top to bottom and there was no growth for him. Am I correct in assuming that?

Meghan: 

Yeah.  Well, let's skip to page 389, shall we?

Nicole: 

Let's.

Meghan: 

Brandon: ‘So the games are over and the act is done and I am a man and I will have my due. It was not my intention to take you again by force, but if I must, I will. For I cannot go on living under the same roof as you and never finding my pleasure in your body. So my mind is made. I'm going to have you and not only tonight you may resign yourself to the fact that we will be sharing a bed from now on and that our relationship will be very intimate. When I return, you will be in this bed, whether willingly or grudgingly. And remember dearest, you are mine and no one will dare come through that door to save you.’ 

That is page 389. They have now been together for over a year.  They've had all sorts of time to learn about each other and whatever. And what we find is he is still spewing this kind of garbage. And after this vomit-worthy bit of Manosphere speech, Heather happily jumps into bed with him because surprise, it's what she's wanted all along.

And at the end of this book, Brandon and Heather are discussing the fact that one of the villains in this book, who somehow is not Brandon, tried to sexually assault Heather. So this other dude tried to sexually assault her. And this particular villain is like the fourth person in the book to try and physically assault her, P.S. 

Anyway, Brandon says, ‘He got what he deserved for trying to rape you.’ 

“Heather looks at him slyly. ‘You were the one who raped me. What were your just desserts?’" 

“He grinned leisurely. ‘I received my just rewards when I had to marry the cocky wench you are.’”

“Heather laughed playfully.”

Cause, isn't rape funny?"

Nicole: 

This is so fucking terrible, God. ⁓

Meghan:

Yeah.  Also, Heather is not the only woman to be assaulted in this book.  But don't worry, Nicole, it's okay and let me explain why. 

Brandon was initially accused of raping and killing two women, but he was let go when it was discovered that one of the women was a promiscuous bitch and the other was too ugly to tempt him. Because as we all know, only pretty and docile women are assaultable.

Promiscuous bitches asked for it, and ugly girls aren't worth it. 

And also, would you believe that Heather was shocked? Shocked! I tell you that Brandon would have even been fingered for these crimes. I mean, what has he ever done besides being angry, controlling, narcissistic, and a rapist to bring those kinds of accusations to the table?

This book perpetuates the concept that jealousy equals love, it's overrun with sexual violence, and is way, way, way too long.

Nicole: 

On a scale of Bertrice Small, where would you put this? Better or worse?

Meghan: 

The writing is far better. The writing is beautiful.

Nicole: 

Okay.

Meghan: 

It is as problematic, but in a different way.

Nicole: 

Yeah.

Meghan: 

Yeah, it was a very frustrating book to read.

Nicole: 

You have been messaging me and commenting to me that it wasn't great and that I would have DNF'd it. And now hearing this, I can tell you in the first 50 pages, I would have been like, fuck this shit. And okay, just so our listeners understand, I have read Pitch Black, I have read Dark Romantasy. I'm actually a Dark Romantasy fan, but I appreciate different tropes and different storylines…

Meghan: 

Mm-hmm.  Yeah.

Nicole: 

…different aspects of the dark romantic world. I do not appreciate bullshit like this.

Meghan: 

And the thing is, like I said, this is the book. This is THE book. 

Nicole: (25:55)

I know, that's so fucked up.

Meghan:

So let me get into my last...here's my diatribe, you guys. I wrote an essay.

Nicole:

Yeah, go on. Go on. Sorry. I'm just like floored. I'm floored. Like, I'm shooketh as they say.

Meghan:

Yeah. I wrote me an essay. This book was the start of romance as we know it and as quote unquote revolutionary as it was.

This is also the book that convinced or reinforced for generations of women that you should ignore your own needs and safety in order to meet societal expectations, that you should remain docile and compliant in the face of unpredictable violence, that love bombing, narcissistic behavior and jealousy are all the face of real love. And looking at it through today's lens, this book was frightening.

Not just because it seems so out of touch 50 plus years later, but because it is very clear that people like you and me, Nicole, swallowed it whole back when we first picked it up.

Nicole: 

Yeah, yeah we did.

Meghan: 

We saw a beautiful cover. We were engrossed in the lush writing style and we ran away with the narrative, sold a bill of goods that this, this was the epitome of romance. And this is the kind of book that fucked us up. The kind of book, yeah.

Nicole: 

Yeah.

Meghan: 

This is the kind of book that had scores of women running head first into red flag relationships or staying in marriages where they were treated as less than human.

Nicole:

Yeah, you and I have been talking about this a lot lately. Yeah.

Meghan:

Kathleen Woodiwiss, right, that's what I’m saying. This is what we grew up reading and we truly read this as this was love, okay? Kathleen Woodiwiss was a very talented writer and that I can confirm. The writing style was engrossing and vibrant. But beyond that, yikes.

Nicole: 

Amen to that. Yeah.

Meghan:

I don't recommend it.  If you'd like to read a book full of sanitized racism, perpetuated stereotypes, characters who should all be in therapy, and good old-fashioned sexual violence, then this book is for you. On the other hand, please take my word for it and I've read it for you. Go to your local bookstore, get something else, anything else. I love you all too much to think of you suffering through this book.

Nicole: 

Yeah.

Meghan: 

That being said, because I did read quite a bit about Kathleen Woodiwiss, a personal interview of her, somebody asked what her favorite characters were, nobody from this book came up.

Nicole: 

Okay.

Meghan: 

She did, however, mention a couple characters from her other books, and I happened to find one of those books at a library sale this weekend. And I purchased it for two whole dollars. So I may be reading that in the future because her writing style... 

Nicole: 

Oh, okay. Oh, God. Okay.  Just to compare to see if she evolved or…

Meghan:

Yeah, I'm just wondering where we went from here because you had talked about how disappointed you were in your...I think it was The Mystery and Mayhem, The Lady's Guide or what was that book called?

Nicole: 

“A Ladies' Guide to Mischief and Mayhem.”

Meghan: 

There's a part in here, I specifically highlighted this for you and why her writing style specifically, I think you would love if I could find a book that wasn't this. This is discussing Heather's wedding day. First of all, they called her outfit raiment, R-A-I-M-E-N-T-S. I have never heard that word. I had to look it up.

Nicole: 

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was mentioned in my book too, believe it or not.

Meghan: 

Raiments, which I thought was...I love it. 

This is the third book in a row where I've had decolletage after not having it in any books. Three books in a row. 

Nicole: 

You know, I love me some decolletage.

Meghan:

Okay, so her wedding gown, “An elegant garment resembling that of a monk's habit, complete with a hood. It was ice blue in color and made of rich, heavy satin cut in simple slender lines. The sleeves reached to the wrist and were, as the skirt of the gown, slightly flared.

Elaborate golden embroidery and countless seed pearls embellished the hood and the sleeves, and placed about the hips, was a girdle of great beauty and considerable fortune. It was of gold leather and was richly sewn with pearls and rubies. A train, a good arm's length longer than herself, waited to be attached with gold chains and heavy satin, and was richly embroidered and embellished with gold and seed pearls. A costume fit for a queen.”

I mean, you get all the outfits, you get these beautiful scenes and these gorgeous words.

Nicole: 

Which, you know, for historical romances, that's huge for me.

Meghan: 

Exactly

Nicole:

I want that world building. I want the descriptions of the dresses. Like, yeah.

Meghan:

Yes.  And the writing is beautiful. The content was horrendous. 

Nicole:

Was crap. Yeah. 

Meghan:

Right. So like everything I just read that that can all be cut. That was specifically for you that I highlighted that because I'm like, if we could find if this next book I read is one where there isn't all the garbage, it might be one I pass on to you just because it's, think, worth us having read something by her being like the mother.

Nicole:

Speaking of mothers…

Meghan: 

Yeah.

Nicole: 

I want to point out, and I'm pretty sure this is the case for your mother as well. my mother was always very much liberal feminist, and was always like, do we understand why this behavior is bad towards women? Why we don't like this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and you couldn't even watch a TV show. My sisters and I joke about this, you couldn't even watch like a commercial...

Meghan: 

Mm-hmm.

Nicole: 

…without my mom pointing out like, we see why this is bad for women, blah, blah, blah. But also, and I can't remember having any Kathleen Woodiwiss in her house, but also, we were surrounded, at least I was growing up, may have been different by the time my sisters were of a certain age. But also there were always tons of romance novels around. And definitely the whole, breathe for daddy Montgomery, that was one I got from my mom.

Meghan: 

Mm-hmm.

Nicole: 

I don't know, it's kind of a weird, it's a weird thing, right? That we read these books and how much they've influenced and impacted us, but at the same time we had moms who were like, do we understand why this is bad? Do we understand this? But then like also the books are there. ⁓ How does that work? Like, I don't know. ⁓

Meghan: 

Yeah, I mean...and again, I understand, like having read this, why this was cutting edge at the time. I do get it. Like I can see reasons why. 

Nicole: 

Sure, sure.

Meghan:

But 50 years later, you can also very clearly see all the problems. Nicole, something I read on her Wikipedia page was something like within the first four years of this book being published, it had sold 2.5 million copies or something like that.

Nicole:

That's insane, and it's so rapey. It's so rapey and wrong,

Meghan: (32:50)

Yeah, it was so different. It was so different and cutting edge at the time. And that's what women were used to. You were used to your body is your husband's and you don't have a choice and you do what he does. So like none of that really stuck out. And we were told over and over again, he's the hero. So you ignore all the other behavior because well, he's the hero. Anyway.

Nicole: 

God.

Meghan: 

With all of that being said, I don't think that this book goes beyond jalapeño.

Nicole: 

Really?

Meghan: 

And that's a stretch. It's jalapeno with all the pepper spray that you can spare.

Nicole: 

Sure, pepper spray galore. Yeah.

Meghan: 

Yeah, that's what I would say.

Boobie prize. What do you have, my dear?

Nicole: 

I'm still trying to absorb the fact that that was not a habanero, but okay.

Meghan:

No, because you barely saw shit. You saw all the violence and all the threats in advance. Yeah.

Nicole: 

Okay, well, that's probably for the fucking best honestly, like, so gross. Okay.

Boobie Prize. Is that what we're talking about? 

Meghan: (33:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you got?

Nicole:

Okay, I have page 89. “Her fingers were stroking the back of his neck, whether by intent or by accident, he couldn't discern and her soft full breasts were pressed against his chest.”

Meghan:

Hmm, breasticle and chesticles right there.

Nicole: 

Yes, how about for you?

Meghan:

All right, I win this one. 

Nicole:

I'm shocked

Meghan:

I win this one, I got page seven.

Nicole: 

Okay well, I mean if he raped her three times before page 50, I guess I’m not shocked.

Meghan: 

Yeah, yeah. 

“The bodice of the gown had been made for a younger girl. The fabric was tight across her breasts, and she pondered on her growth and considered the daring swell above the low decolletage.”

Nicole: 

My God, I love a decolletage, but not in this situation.

Meghan:

Not in this scenario, but like I was saying, this is the third book in a row to say decolletage, and we had not had that word until three episodes ago. So it's nuts to me.

Nicole: 

I'm disappointed because I love it and I use it all the time. 

Meghan: 

I know, but it's crazy that I had three in a row now. Anyway.

Nicole:

I know. Well, whatevs. How about scents? We got some smells up in your rapey book?

Meghan:

I... You know what?  I'm sure we did. I... I... There was something about smelling his breath because he tried to kiss her after he had like drank too much. I don't know. Yeah... Just... F it all.

Nicole: 

Ugh.  What a winner. How awesome.

For scents for my book. It was a lot of clean scents and floral for her, particularly roses. I can't remember for him. I'm sure it was something manly. I don't know. Leathery and manly. I don't fucking remember. Honestly. Okay, so we chose to do scents this year. Last year we did food.

Meghan: 

Yeah!

Nicole: 

The scents, I know that we see them all the time in books and it is a very interesting thing to see what genders are and what characters are associated with what smells. It seems to be, and I'm just swinging around here, it seems to be the women are always associated with something floral and feminine and the dudes are always like leathery or clean linen. You know I mean?

Meghan: 

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.  Earthy.

Nicole: 

What I find interesting is I don't know about you. I very really associated dude with like, he smells like clean laundry, but literally in so many of these books, they're like, he smelled of clean linen. And I was like, sure, I guess I'm glad that dudes are washing themselves enjoy their laundry. But like, that's not like the scent I'm picking out if you know, like…

Meghan: 

Hmm, no.  A sexy scent is usually something that tells me you've been working on a car or using your hands or something. want something where you smell a little bit like oil because you've been out under the hood or some sort of like sawdust or like you...

Nicole: 

Man glitter? Yeah.

Meghan:

…love the smell of sawdust. 

Nicole:

I'm not one for cut grass because I'm allergic to grasses.

Meghan:

Yeah. Yeah, I love the smell, but I am also allergic, so I'm with you.

Nicole: 

I honestly love it when my husband, Bob, Bob, Bob, my husband…

Meghan: 

Bob. Bob her husband.

Nicole:

…when he has like a slightly like, I can tell he's been sweating a little bit working hard. I don't know how to describe it. But it's like, not not when he's like grossly overly North Carolina heat a summer sweaty because that's just rank. That's not good for anybody.  But when he's been like slightly sweaty and you can tell he's been working hard at something, I'm like, yes.

Meghan: 

There are two words that bother me with smells when it comes to being related to, first of all, anybody. I hate when they're like, they smelled “peppery.” No, I don't like that. 

Nicole:

Yeah.

Meghan:

I don't like peppery, mostly because I know exactly what they're talking about. And I sat next to it. I sat next to a guy in my Russian class back my freshman year. And I remember thinking that I could not handle the way he smelled and to me it smelled peppery. So anytime they describe that I'm like, that's that dude who sat to my left in class.

Nicole: 

And girl, we must have a similar olfactory senses because nah, I'm also like “meh, no.”

Meghan: 

Yeah, and there was a guy I very briefly dated in college and his smell was too sweet. I don't even know how to explain that either. There was like a sweet kind of undertone. I'm like, mm, that's too sugary. And you know me, I can't deal with too sugary of a drink. Like I can't handle that smell either. Like…

Nicole: 

…ew. No, no, no, I get that too.

But a guy who splooges syrup?

Meghan: 

Come on.

Nicole: 

Sorry, for the for those who are yeah for the for those for those who are new to the podcast – 

Meghan: (38:36)

That was my swamp monster for those of you who don't, who weren't around.

Nicole:

Meghan, we've had first… 

Meghan:

Yeah, that was during Monster Month.  

Nicole:

…yes, monster month last season…so it's 2025 October.

Meghan:

Yeah, character's name was Marsh. Yeah, and he had some...

Meghan:

Marsh. Marsh.  But Meghan was like I like, like “a lot of girls like a sweet treat, and so my romantic reminder is that a guy,” and I'm paraphrasing, is “a guy should splooge syrup.”

Meghan: 

I'm sorry if you have the ability to splooge of your choice, syrup is not a bad choice. Just saying. Just don't smell like it. That's all.

Nicole: 

Gross, yeah, no, I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't want like a gross, cloyingly sweet, eww, no thanks. Even when you mentioned it at first, I was like, I don't want to guys just smell like that.

Meghan: 

Yeah.

We have gotten so far off of like the point of what we were talking about.

Nicole: 

Is it just an evolution of conversation?

Meghan: 

We're going to the path least trodden. Come on, Robert Frost.

Nicole:

Well, Meghan, I had to chug six ounces of fucking scotch because I couldn't deal with your book. So that's where we are.

Meghan: 

I'm so sorry.  I read all 484 pages, so you never have to.

Nicole: 

Oh, God, and honestly, you could have DNF'd that and I would have completely understood.

Meghan: 

No, you know I'm never gonna DNF a book. That's a problem. I'm never gonna do it.

Nicole: 

God.  So we're done with Mothers of Romance for the month of May. And next up, we're heading into June. And for June, we are doing The Great Outdoors. 

Meghan: 

Yes. Yes.  The Great Outdoors.

Nicole:

The Out of Doors, if you will.  Meghan, what do you have coming up on the next podcast episode?

Meghan: 

Well for our first, The Great Outdoors, I have got one called “Highest Point” by Kels and Denise Stone.

And I will tell you when I first saw this cover, I thought he was wearing a kilt. 

Nicole: 

That's fair.  

Meghan:

He is not. If you look closely, it's a bunch of carabiners and ropes for doing mountain climbing, but

Nicole:

Is it for mountain climbing or is it for other activities?

Meghan: 

Well, I mean, I don't know. haven't read it yet, so I'll let you know. 

Nicole: 

Please do. Inquiring minds wish to know.

Meghan:

All right. Well, it's coming up next, so we'll know pretty shortly. 

“Alec Hastings: I had a plan for everything. Gear lists, weather patterns, mountain routes down to the mile. But nothing prepared me for the moment I watched my best friend fall into the abyss.

After Finn's accident, I walked away from the mountains to fix up the abandoned lodge we bought as teenagers so he has a safe place to recover. The man who sold us the place is gone, but his daughter, Clementine, is here. And she needs a partner to enter the high stakes wilderness competition with a cash prize she's desperate to win. She knows design, I know survival. So we strike a deal. She helps me finish the lodge.

I help her win. This year, the annual competition is bigger than ever, so we start training. Hard. While I have my doubts initially, Clementine doesn't quit, even when she should.

I've summited K2 and Everest, but I've never encountered anything like her. She's too young, too sunlit, and too everything. And the longer we work together, the harder it is to pretend this is a partnership, and my time in Alaska is temporary. 

Clementine Lennox : Newly promoted principal dancer with the New York City Ballet. That's what was meant to happen.

Instead, I packed up my dreams and fled to the remote town where I spent my childhood summers. The only goal I have now is paying off the mountain of debt that followed me across the country. My solution? Winning wild trails with the help of legendary mountaineer Alec Hastings. Alec is enigmatic and intense, and though he pushes me to the brink, he's always there to catch me. His faith in me makes me feel like I still matter.

Like, I'm not a failure. With each milestone I achieve, I prove to myself that I'm more than the sum of my broken dreams and that I'm allowed to choose myself. And I might have to because Alec has always chased the next adventure. And while the clock is ticking on our agreement, I have a feeling he'll be gone when the seasons change.”

Highest point. Yeah.

Nicole: 

That is quite intense, my lady.

Meghan: 

Alright, girl, what do you have? What do you have? What's your next great outdoors or your first great outdoors? Y'all first.

Nicole: 

My first Great Outdoors is “Southern Seducer” by Jessica Peterson.

Meghan: 

I'm sorry. You had not shown me that cover before. I was not prepared.

This is the kind of cover I hate you guys.

There's nothing appealing about that to me, I just find it so icky.  Gross!

Nicole: 

Here's what I don't love, the armpit hair at all, because it's not shaved, it's not waxed, and dudes.

Meghan: 

This is, you can't read that in public! This goes on that list of books we cannot read in public. I'm sorry, no.

Nicole: 

Honestly, I'd be less embarrassed to read “Southern Seducer” than “Bob's Fall”.

Meghan: 

They were…okay, that was also terrible. “Bob's Fall” and what was…”Mine” by Helen K. Diamond.  Both of them because they didn't have a head. This guy's got a head. 

Nicole: (44:16)

Ha, yeah.  He's got a face! He's got a face!

Meghan:

The other two is just…wait, but he's so full of himself. Look at that guy. He just thinks he's so pretty.

Nicole:

I just have to focus on the goddamn underarms. Gentlemen, gentlemen, nobody likes fucking underarm hair. We don't like it on anybody. We need to get rid of it. And I understand if you live in a northern clime and you're taking a hiatus because of the season, fine, what the fuck ever.

Meghan: 

No.

Nicole: 

I don't want bushy pits, I'm a dude. I don't. I don't.

Meghan: 

rTim, trim, learn how to trim. Otherwise you go all LL Cool J on us and you get chunks in there and it's just not okay. However, can we just go back to the fact that is a pretty man? I don't like the pretty man look.

Nicole: 

Huh.  Is he pretty or does he think he's pretty?

Meghan: 

That's my point. He thinks he's pretty and that's not my thing. You do you, boo. Not for me.

Nicole: 

Not with that under arms, not for me.

Meghan: 

Alright, anyway, Nicole!

Oh, was that in your pick a number and it didn't get picked? I see an E13 on there.

Nicole: 

No, honey, I number all my episodes on my books.

Meghan: 

My god, this girl and her organization.

Nicole: 

Did we mention I'm OCD?

Meghan: 

And I'm so ADHD that would never happen.

Nicole:

This is why it works between the two of us. Ying and ying and yang, my love.

Meghan:

God, I know that's why we do well together. I love you. Okay. Tell me about your pretty man.

Nicole:   Southern Seducer by Jessica Peterson. I'm gonna have to read it with a southern accent. 

Meghan: (45:57)

Yeah, I can hear that.

Nicole:

It's just gonna have to happen.

“I've done a lot of stupid stuff in my life, but sleeping with my best friend tops the list Annabelle and I have been close since college when I left school to play pro football. She was there. When I collected Super Bowl rings and cars worth more than the house I grew up in.  She was there.

I always assumed we'd end up together. Everyone did. But by the time I retired from football, Belle was married. I thought I'd missed my shot at love. So I buried myself in my new job as CEO of Blue Mountain Farm…”

I can't even say that straight.

Meghan: 

This is all terrible. This is so painful.  I hope this book is better than what it's sounding like so far.

Nicole: 

“So I buried myself in my new job as CEO of Blue Mountain Farm, a five-star resort my family and I built in the great smoky mountains of North Carolina. It seems like a good place to be along with the secret I have to keep from her. Now Belle is a divorced single mom struggling to raise her daughter on her own, and it's my turn to be there for her. So I invite her and the baby up to the resort for some much needed R &R. Then, in a moment of bonfire and bourbon induced weakness, I kiss her. And the fallout could ruin everything.”

And who hasn't been there for a moment of bonfire and bourbon-induced weakness?

Meghan: 

Okay. Wow.

Nicole: 

Excited!

Meghan: 

I would have gotten one look at that cover and been like, I'm judging, I'm judging, I know I shouldn't judge a book by its cover, I'm judging and you are not coming home with me.

Nicole: 

You…I feel a southern accent kicking in you too, Meg.

Meghan: 

I heard you and I can't stop. That's the problem. I lived in South Carolina for a while. I lived in Charleston. It's in there somewhere.

Nicole: 

She's residual.

Meghan: 

Se's residual. I got the y’alls. I do. I got the katty-corners.

Nicole: 

Y'all.  It's all encompassing.  Love it.  

Meghan: 

I love all the y’alls.

Nicole:

All y'all.

I don't love his armpits, but we're gonna read him.

Meghan: 

Get him out of here. God.

All right, kids, thank you for joining us today for Romance on the Rocks. Please like, subscribe, and follow. And if you are a hopelessly romantic bookish bitty like us, think about giving us a review wherever you catch your podcasts. And until next time, please stay safe and know that your support means the world to us. You are loved.