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Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Each episode will feature a conversation between host Rebecca Harvin and foster/adoptive caregivers or members of the community who support foster care and adoption.
Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Empowering Voices: Navigating the Complex Emotions of Birth Kids in Foster Care
What happens when a birth kid grows up in a foster and adoptive family and becomes an advocate for others in similar situations? Daniela Coates, a licensed social worker, adoptive mother, and foster parent, shares her personal and professional journey with us. Through her organization, With Siblings, Daniela is doing groundbreaking work by focusing on the voices and experiences of birth children in foster and adoptive families. Her insights shed light on the complex emotional landscape that these kids navigate and the importance of support systems that truly see and hear them.
Join us as Daniela opens up about the struggles she faced as a child, feeling invisible amid new family dynamics and grappling with the challenges of being a pastor's child. She recounts the poignant memories of saying goodbye to foster siblings and how these experiences led her to embrace fostering formally. Daniela’s story is one of resilience, highlighting the balance and fulfillment that fostering can bring, even in the face of temporary relationships.
As the conversation continues, we delve into the universal emotions of feeling unseen, as depicted in Daniela's book "The Day Lily Turned Uninvisible." We explore the duality of emotions birth kids experience, the importance of empowering their voices, and the need for open dialogue about the hard truths in foster care narratives. Daniela's journey from agency work to creating a global support network underscores the significance of addressing these nuanced family dynamics with empathy and understanding. Tune in to learn how Daniela's work can inspire more comprehensive conversations about the mental health and well-being of all children in the foster care system.
My guest on the podcast today is Daniela, a self-identified birth kid. Having grown up in a family that fostered and adopted, she is also a mother to children, both by birth and adoption. Daniela is the author of the Day Lily Turned Uninvisible, a children's book that follows the story of Lily, a birth kid in a foster family. In a foster family, Daniela skillfully intertwines her personal and professional experiences, drawing from both to create a rich and multifaceted body of work that reflects the depth and breadth of her journey. Daniela Coates is the founder of With Siblings, an organization that exists to support the birth children in foster and adoptive families by equipping parents and professionals through trainings and resources. With a background in social work, Daniela is a speaker delivering informative and inspiring messages to audiences across multiple contexts, including conferences, retreats, faith communities and foster care adoption organizations. She is dedicated to inspiring and captivating audiences, weaving narratives that resonate deeply with listeners, including myself. That is how Daniela and I met. You guys are in for a treat today.
Speaker 1:Here's my conversation with Daniela. Daniela, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad that you are here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am you Okay on record. I didn't say this when we were off record talking, but on record you're one of my new favorite people this year, but I think you already know that.
Speaker 2:Wow, I feel like I deserve like a button for that.
Speaker 1:Seems big, I should make buttons. I should be like, like at the end of the year I should give people awards like you're one of my new favorite people, but 2024 one of my favorite people is there like a?
Speaker 2:can you be like demoted? Like you have to send your button in if you you know the next year or something. I don't know how that works please return.
Speaker 1:Please return to sender. No, but I truly like you. I have talked about you so much and to so many different people after I saw you at the replanted conference and sent you that very I used the word sporadic just a second ago, but it was like a knee jerk reaction when I saw you on stage and our audience will understand why I had the knee-jerk reaction as you talk. But I look at you and I just see somebody that gets this journey from so many different dimensions. Journey from so many different dimensions and as a parent in foster care and then adoption, you embody what I want for my kids, even if they didn't later on adopt. Like you embody the grace of the journey and so it's very true, that is what you do. So if you would just tell our audience a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am an adoptive mother. I was a foster parent, I'm an adoptive mother, I've got six kiddos four by adoption, two by birth and I'm also a licensed master social worker in Texas, so that I'm under supervision, doing therapy, working a lot with birth kids, with kids of all backgrounds and experiences, but I do definitely work with birth kids in foster and adoptive families and then I grew up as a birth kid or a biological kid in a home that fostered and eventually adopted. So I kind of have this, like you said, kind of this all angles, full circle type view of the system and what you know, all these different kinds of experiences. So that's the short version of who I am me.
Speaker 1:It's extremely well-rounded, like I would say very well-rounded Like we don't. I only know the system from the perspective of a foster parent and then adoptive parent and you're like no, I know what it's like to be in it and not have any control. I know what it's like to work on the outside trying to get healing and health for mental health, for kids, and I know what it's like as a parent knowing the other two different types like I can't imagine how maybe mentally exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yes, like I feel like you hit the nail on the head, because it is because there's so much as a parent where I'm like I'm supposed to be professional, I'm supposed to know how to do this, I'm supposed to know how to like help my kid with this right, like just there's a lot of that. And then as the professional helping parents to help their birth kids, it's like, well, I've been a birth kid so I do know a lot, right, and then I also have the professional aspect, but I also have the parent aspect that says, yeah, but I know how hard this really is to make it happen. So it's just this like constant game of trying to make the thing, the saying, the thing, making that palatable for whoever is listening, whether that's a birth kid or a parent or a professional or someone who like maybe was formerly in foster care like making the whole thing palatable can be really challenging and exhausting.
Speaker 1:Making it palatable. We were just talking in a meeting yesterday about how sometimes the message that we talk about is so offensive. Palatable is such a great word, yeah, such a great word of how can the person in front of me hear what I need to say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've been listening to Brené Brown's Braving the Wilderness and there is so much that I'm like, wow, I am in the wilderness as a professional speaking kind of to this area, like there's nobody else doing this. I mean, there's a few people right, but like generally speaking, I'm not joining a crowd, and so it definitely feels like the wilderness when it comes to that.
Speaker 1:Oh, totally yeah. I mean, I don't know of any competitors that you have in the field, which makes it like you were on this stage and you were talking about life as a birth kid and you were talking to people who either have they're either caregivers or they were professionals in the audience, Right, and the way that you talked was like oh my gosh, you don't shy away from anything Like you, don't? That's one of your like gifts in communication, is you don't shy away from anything Like you don't? That's one of your like gifts in communication is you don't shy away from the hard. You just find a way to package it so that parents like myself and professionals can hear. And so can you tell us a little bit about what it was like for you as a birth kid in your family?
Speaker 2:Yeah it was really interesting is the fact that I haven't been able to say the hard until, like mostly an adult, because the hard wasn't safe to say as a kid growing up, because there were people who didn't understand and there were people who would like scold me for talking about how hard it was, or people just they just didn't get it. And so it's interesting that now the message comes off as, like you, you touch on it, you can say the thing, you can talk about the hard. But it hasn't always been that way at all, because as a kid I never felt like I had the freedom to do that Eventually with my parents, but not to an audience. Goodness gracious, if, like 11 year old me imagined that I'd be standing up there talking about how I felt at 11, I would have probably buried my head in a pillow. Like that would just be atrocious.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a question before you jump into your story? And the question that I'm about to ask is a little bit ridiculous, because we can't go back in time and we can't wave a magic wand and give ourselves what we needed as a kid right, and I saw this like Instagram thing. That was like you become the person that could have saved you as a kid. I find that to be very true in my own life. But if you could, if you had a magic wand and you could wave it and go back to that 11-year-old kid. What's one thing before you jump into your story that you wish you had, that you wished that you could say Like that I could say now to myself then is that kind of what you're saying, what are?
Speaker 1:you asking I'm saying like as an 11 year old if there was a way that you could have said oh, I think thing then what would it, what would you have needed to be able to say that?
Speaker 2:um, probably the things that I said quietly. Things like this has ruined my life. I don't want this. I wish it could go back to how it used to be. That would probably be the hardest thing that I would have never felt, like I could have said.
Speaker 2:And so, in order to have said that you would have needed a safe place, one safe person, one safe adult, to say that to that wouldn't get their feelings hurt or say right and eventually my parents were that the initial reaction from my dad was not that and he actually has said, like that's a point of regret for me, like I remember that moment, I do not love that. I feel really like lots of feelings around that my dad says that. So but eventually, like we were, I was able to say the thing with them for sure, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so can you tell us about being a birth kid and feeling like it ruined your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally so. When I was I guess I say 11, cause that's kind of when everything felt like it crashed and burned. But when I guess when I was 10 I guess I say 11, because that's kind of when everything felt like it crashed and burned. But I guess when I was 10, we had the first set of kids come to our home and our family was intent on adopting. Fostering was not the plan, so it was like going in full on right. We're like they're going to be our siblings, they're going to be here forever. There's all these like really big things assigned to that. There's no question marks, there's no like maybe they'll be here, maybe they won't Not a lot of like ambiguity there.
Speaker 2:So we're going in and there's these initial visits because we're planning on adopting, so my parents are meeting them for the first time, and there's just these like little moments that I remember along the way that really started to signal how I was feeling. But of course, at the time it was hard to even know what I was feeling. So, like, for example, my parents visited with the older of the kids that were being placed with us for adoption and at the end of that visit and I think, rebecca, you've probably heard this portion of the story. That boy threw a football at my dad and said hey, dad, catch. And I remember when my dad told me that story I was like who in the world is this kid to meet my dad for the first time and call him dad? Like he is a stranger. What right does he have? Like this is not his position or his privilege and so like that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But like at that time I don't think I even knew that I was feeling that it wasn't until like retrospect that I was able to look back and be like, oh, I was feeling jealous and like I was being pushed out and like maybe I was going to be replaced and like maybe I wasn't very significant if a new kid could just come into our family and be a child of my parents. When I've been here for 11 years, like maybe I'm really not that significant after all. So like all these things. But at 10 or 11, like who can really verbalize that? That's hard enough as an adult to say those things. I'm feeling pushed out and replaced and insignificant. Who of us is that vulnerable in real life?
Speaker 1:Oh, I mean at 42, I'm, I'm, I still struggle, yeah, Um, I remember at in foster care, kids coming in and calling me mom right away, and I'm like that's so weird. It feels so weird to me even as an adult. I'm like and then I know that there's a lot of reasons that they do it and all of that stuff. Right, right, brad and I were always like you can call me mumsy, like I'm the mom figure right now in foster care, but your mom is your mom. But at 10, yeah, it makes me wonder how Zoe and Slade felt in those moments with, like some of the older kids that came in.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:It makes sense that a two-year-old would but like an older Anyhow, right, okay, so you're starting, you're having feelings.
Speaker 2:Having feelings and things were not going super swimmingly in a general sense. My dad is a pastor, so we were very involved in the church. The kids are, you know, I'm introducing them to everybody and I'm happy that they're there. I'm really excited because I'm on board with this, honestly, like my parents weren't just like making this decision on their own. That was like a family, a family thing. I was a hundred percent, yes, let's do this. And I was excited because I was getting some sisters and you know, along with my brothers, that I, my biological brothers I had already, and so I'm excited about this. I'm introducing them to people at church and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But then I'm also all of a sudden realizing that these fears of being pushed out, of being replaced, of being insignificant, are also servicing at church, because people now are asking me what's it like? Is it so fun having these new siblings? What are they like? What's different or whatever it's like? Everybody wants to know about them. And this new hot thing in my life so fun having these new siblings? What are they like? What's different or whatever Like it's like. Everybody wants to know about them. And this new hot thing in my life, right, this new big change and I'm not loving it. I'm like stop making this thing huge and exciting when you don't know what it's like at home and it's not fun at all.
Speaker 2:And so that was a really hard place to be as a kid too.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that as an 11 year old.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I love that your voice took the tone that I am hearing all the time inside of my house, yep.
Speaker 2:So. So again, just the theme of just feeling this invisibility, feeling like, am I significant? Wondering, and also as, as a pastor's daughter, I was seen like I was known in my community, and then, all of a sudden, I felt like I wasn't. I felt like I wasn't seen and like I wasn't known, and so that was a lot. And to add to the mess of all of it, we actually left that church because we were moving and my dad was taking a completely new job, but we moved 16 hours away to a completely different state. So not only has my world been turned upside down because three new kids have joined our family and they, you know, it feels like they've ruined everything, which they haven't, but it felt like everything was ruined. And then we move and I've lost my house, my community, my church. I mean, I feel like I'm nobody now in this new place. New people in my family, whole new community. Who am I?
Speaker 1:anymore and 10 turning 11. In my head it's like this is too many plot lines even for Inside Out to cover, Like if you gave this to the people who made that movie they'd be like no, no, no we have to trim this down, you can only have one big problem, like you have.
Speaker 1:Like that's yeah, riley can only handle one hockey camp. Like you can't right, right and it's like no real life is, like it just piles and piles and piles, yep. So you move into the new community and you're like you're floundering with no words and no ability to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, we've lost the supports that we had. You know, there and even think about what is this like 20 or so years ago? So I mean, even education and trauma informed anything and like that was so much less 20 years ago. There just wasn't even an understanding of anything related to that. So that's part of it too.
Speaker 2:And so basically we moved and six months after that, the adoption was falling apart. I mean, we hadn't actually adopted them, it was an adoptive placement. The intent was adoption. We hadn't gotten to that point yet, but it was falling apart. It was completely breaking down and my parents were like reaching out to the social workers, trying to ask, like can we do this? Like kind of just trying to find solutions. Like how can we make this work? How can we, how can you help us? How can we make things? Like be in the best interest of these kiddos? And with no intention of saying they need to go back. That was never like the intention. But the workers said you've got a week, Pack up their stuff, we're going to come get them. And they did. They did so.
Speaker 1:It was yeah every time that I hear you that's your story, that part of your story every I can feel my chest like just getting tighter and tighter as you're telling the story and the confusion would confusion be the right word for how you were feeling at the day. Would that be part of it?
Speaker 2:probably part of it. Yeah, I mean, there's so many things, so much grief. So much grief because, even though it was an awfully hard year, we still spent that year calling each other, brother and sister, right, and like spending time together and like there's all these like little sweet moments that I remember too, and you, you might remember this one where, like the youngest of the siblings, one morning I woke up and she was laying on the floor of my room on my throw pillows because she just wanted to be close to me, like we were so close, and that kind of stuff was the kind of thing that I was just like immensely deep in grief in, because it just it didn't feel right. Why is this happening? So, yeah, confusion, I guess, but along with like anger, not getting the support that we need relief, because that was a really difficult year and a huge part of that difficulty was now over, in a way. So lots of yeah, lots of feelings there away.
Speaker 1:So lots of yeah, lots of feelings there. It's amazing to me how, how complicated the emotions can be at the end of a placement, and even more so when you, when you believe that you're going to adopt them like right, it feels like the emotions can be almost like a pinball machine, like where it's just bouncing back and forth between anger, relief, all of it over and over again.
Speaker 2:So you're 11 at that point yep, yep, I'm 11 where my mom is packing up all their stuff, which is, like you know, those huge, like uh, plastic storage bins right, the big, those bins of those stacked by our front door.
Speaker 2:I can't lie I can just still, right like in that envision what that looked like. And I remember just the that last week, right of just, it was just basically a week of just knowing it was coming, yeah, and then they came and they picked them up and they couldn't even fit all the stuff into their vehicle. So I don't even remember what happened with that. Maybe we had to ship some, I don't even, I don't even know um, and they were gone and we, you know, had sent like information, our contact information with like them, but knowing full well that we would probably never hear from them. And that was another like an ambiguous loss kind of thing, like they're out there, they're alive, but this is goodbye. And so that was, that was another layer of all the feelings have you ever heard from him again?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah we were yeah, we were. Uh, let's see. Yeah, it was probably a couple years later. We were driving to church, my mom was driving me to youth group and my mom's phone rang. And I don't know how you are, but my mom is the kind of person who answers every phone call, whether she knows it or not, whether she knows the number or not, and we're like mother, stop answering, it's spam, always spam it's always spam.
Speaker 1:I never answer a number I don't recognize.
Speaker 2:But this is my mom. She always answers the phone and we always give her grief for it. But if she hadn't answered the phone that night, we would have missed it, because she said oh, hi, and said their name and I just broke down crying because it was like this you know, we've been waiting for this and, yeah, I had to have been at least a few years later because I had a phone and I didn't have a phone till I was at least a teen. So, anyway, we kind of like I we kind of swapped numbers and I was texting him the rest of the that night.
Speaker 2:Like I did not go into youth group, I was just like texting because we didn't know, like we didn't know how, how long? Like did he get permission? Did he not? Like, did like how is this going? So I was texting him and I mean texting him probably occasionally through the years and, uh, eventually, many, many years after that, when he was an adult another one of the siblings was an adult. We were visiting where we originally moved from and we actually were able to like get dinner and get coffee with them, and so that was a really a really interesting thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lots of emotions there too actually. Oh, I'm sure I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. I have a couple placements that I'm like I would love to see you on this side of heaven and knowing we might not ever get to so okay, so you're a teenager, I know your story doesn't end there, right. Your family jumps back in at some point.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was probably a couple years later, I would assume, because it's like, okay, my parents they're like we've gone through the process of getting re-approved, basically in this state. So we know we want to help kids. What if we go the foster care route and help kids, like in a temporary capacity? And so that's what we did and we had sibling groups come. Sometimes they were with us for like a year and a half, two years, and sometimes they were with us for like a handful of months and so we fostered for the next oh, what was that? Like maybe eight years or so Through high school for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mm-hmm, yep, and wildly different experience from my perspective and when I talk about that, I never know how to like what to pinpoint. Was it because we were fostering and we weren't adopting? Was it because I was getting older and my perspective was changing, like I honestly don't know. I don't know what made the difference, but that was wildly different than the experience with the first set of kids, and what did it feel like the second time?
Speaker 2:I mean, it still had its hard, but it did not feel replaced, it did not feel insignificant, I did not feel like they had ruined my life. Every time that, like kiddos would leave our home, my parents would be like, should we take that replacement, do we have some more kids come? And we'd be like, yeah, of course, obviously. So it just felt like, yeah, this is what we do, this is what our family does, and I'm still glad to be a part of it. This is important.
Speaker 1:Much more balanced. Yeah, much more balanced. There's hope.
Speaker 2:Right, but honestly, because there is something and I do address this in some of my trainings of like there's this, is this really forever? And yes, it can touch on the potential grief of like wait, they're going to leave, but also there is something daunting sometimes about like wait, there's no end to this. This is, I'm in this forever. Yes, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is the difference between foster care and adoption.
Speaker 1:That exact thing when we were deciding if we were going to adopt like our final converse. Well, I would love it to have been our final conversation, but we had many more still after. But we were on a trip, we were up in the Tetons and we were driving and we knew that when we came back we had to tell the caseworker whether or not we were going to be a yes in the event that adoption was needed. Right, and I knew for myself like I I can't go back and forth on this Like it's just needs to. I can't. I can't have this decision hanging over us for the next year. We were not anywhere really close to the end of their case. I mean, we were close enough that we needed to know did they need to start looking for a different adoptive family or would we say yes?
Speaker 1:And I just remember Brad, the kids had to have been like five, four, three and two. And he was like we're still wiping butts? Like we're still, they don't. Are we going to be tying shoes for forever? Like, are we going to be wiping butts forever? And I said no, like you're thinking about them in this stage, like you're thinking about them as five, four, three and two. They don't stay five, four, three and two forever. Like what you should be concerned about is when they're 16, 15, 14, and 13. Like you're worried about their own stage, right, and it's been a couple years and I'm here to tell you we're still wiping butts. It's been a couple years and I'm here to tell you we're still wiping butts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is this like, is this going to last? And I'm using such a minor example of the questions that we ask in adoption of is this behavior going to last forever? And in foster care, I can do anything for six months. You're going to last forever. And in foster care, I can do anything for six months. You can throw right I, you can have whatever behavior you need to have at for that time and you're in whatever you like. Do you know what I'm trying to say? Oh, yeah, I can do this for six months. You know there's an end. There's going to be an end in some way, shape or form. Hopefully, if it's right, if it's a best case scenario, it back home with right, mom and dad reunification, if not, maybe maybe an aunt or an uncle is coming in and adopting, but um, but we only had to do this for three months or six months or a year 400 days my longest placement I can.
Speaker 1:We can do anything for 400 days. 400 days is a little bit longer. When you're like, I can do anything. When you're saying that for 400 days, that feels longer than, but anyhow, yeah, it's fostering, does fostering?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think that was a piece. And it's interesting to me that even like as a kid, I knew that, like wait, this is forever. Like I could feel those things even as a kid, like wait, things are never going to go back to how they used to be. Oh, I don't, I don't like that. That's, that's a big change.
Speaker 1:We were on a trip out west this summer and back to the Tetons. We were taking the kids back to the place where we said yes to them. And it was really mentally for me special trip and that is not how it ended up being.
Speaker 1:We came home and my friends were like your pictures looked great. And I was like it's not hard to make pictures of the Tetons look great, like that's easy. It's not hard to make pictures of kids going through creeks easy. It was emotionally complicated, complicated is the right answer and I said, like when I stop talking on social media, that's your cue, like that's when I stop, like having words for something. But the people who did have words and I'm going to protect them as I'm talking about this, um, we're zoe and slade and we had a conversation on the last night of um of being in the tetons that it was zoe's 14th birthday and so it was interesting to me as a mom is I'm watching like we started this when zoe was six and now she's 14.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The difference in communication styles right.
Speaker 2:Oh sure.
Speaker 1:The difference in and I'll tell you what 14 year olds don't hold back. Yeah, they say it. I have thoughts and feelings and you are going to, you're going to know about them, and one of the things that they were wrestling with was we can't go back and we don't want to go back. Like to be clear for the audience, but Zoe and Slade still remember life before foster care and adoption.
Speaker 1:So she still remembers what life was like at six. But what she said is we started operating different post-adoption than when, how we operated as a family during foster care, cause we knew, as foster parents, this is our nucleus. Kids are going to come and go. Zoe and Slade are here and we had different routines and rhythms is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, and when we adopted, we got rid of them. Um, and zoe and slade both looked at us and they were like you got rid of our anchor, like, oh, daniella, it was hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's hard.
Speaker 1:Hard to hear, as a parent for sure hard to hear as a parent, and it was so one of the. I can tell you that one of the primary emotions that I felt right then was like I still have time, there's still time. So he's 14. She's telling me this at 14, we have four years left. Like if she can say what she needs, then I have the opportunity to be able to meet that need as her mom. And she's telling me she needs one-on-one time with me. Like she's telling me I don't care how crazy life is, I need your attention.
Speaker 2:I need, I need you and um, but I think that's so beautiful that they like felt safe to say that to you guys too, right, I mean, that in and of itself is just so telling, because there's just so many kids that don't feel like their parents will be able to hear and receive the hard, and so I think it's so encouraging that they're able to do that with you guys thanks, we've worked hard at that.
Speaker 1:We've worked hard at like um, creating space for them to say all of the hard things. Like you look at kids and you've heard me get up on the soapbox many, many times but like we're asking kids to do things that grown adults have like struggle with. And we're asking them to do things and not giving them any resources whatsoever and just being like this is your life. Figure it out, but don't say that it's hard, don't say that it's, don't say it's complicated, don't say that you wish life could go back, don't don't have the same exact feelings that every adult involved has. Hey guys, taking a quick break from our conversation to let you know that Behind the Curtain is sponsored by Haven Retreats.
Speaker 1:Haven is an organization that exists to create sustainability in foster care and adoption. Did you know that 50% of foster homes will close their license in the first year, but 90% will keep them open if they feel supported? At Haven, we support caregivers by offering therapeutic retreats and wraparound care. Right now, our retreats are held in Northeast Florida for moms, dads, couples and bio kids. If you're a foster or adoptive caregiver or you know somebody who is and would benefit from coming to one of these retreats, you can learn more about them by going to our website, wwwhavenretreatsincorg, that's Haven retreats with an S I-N-C dot O-R-G. We hope to hear from you soon. And now back to our conversation.
Speaker 2:But also but also when you were talking earlier, this came to my mind we say you know, it feels yucky a little bit for us to like acknowledge that there's this sometimes like, oh wait, life's never going to go back to how it used to be. I miss that. Why is it not okay for birth kids to feel like I love my siblings and I wish things could go back to how they used to be? Why can those not be simultaneous, when it can be simultaneous for people who've been adopted? They're allowed to wish that they never had to be adopted. They're allowed to be thankful for their adoptive family and wish they didn't, but why is it not okay for birth kids? I'm sorry, now I'm on a soapbox.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why? And every other person involved in the circle has this feeling. I wish I got my life together in time. I wish that I could go back and raise my child. I wish that I wasn't adopted. I'm glad that I was adopted. I'm glad that I wasn't left. I wish I didn't get into adoption. I'm glad that I did get into adoption. Everybody else gets to say it, but it's too hard when a birth kid says it, Because I mean I can tell you as a mom why that is. It's because feels like maybe ruined their life. Whether that is true or not, is TBD Like? But I think that that's also like one of your gifts for me is like this didn't ruin your life, this gave you purpose and and and direction, and like you found yourself back immersed in the home, and like when we bring in foster kids.
Speaker 1:when we, when we adopt kids, it is the, it is the birth kids, the biological children in that family. They have so much access to, to healing deep, deep hurts, deep wounds, which is why your little sister from the first placement came into your room with a blanket and pillows and is sleeping on your floor, because you have access to her that nobody else in the world does and she feels safe in your presence. I watch this play out in my house all of the time and, like you guys have now, sometimes you don't have grace.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, they're human. Birth kids are human too, just like parents are Everybody's human.
Speaker 1:But sometimes you have more, sometimes you have access, like sometimes, like I watch Zoe and Slade. When I'm struggling in the house, I watch Zoe and Slade come in, not because they have to, not because they have to fix anything, not because, like, nobody's putting that expectation on them, but they have this unique ability to say like hey, come, hang out in my room right now for a second and, like, we're going to, we're going to make a bracelet together. Mom's working something out in the kitchen and you probably don't want to be around.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, like that's helping everybody involved helping everybody involved. But um so, anyhow you become, you like jumping back into your, to your story. As an adult, you become a therapist and you're like kids like me needed somebody to talk to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, it kind of started before I became a therapist, because I worked for foster care and adoption agency, kind of at the beginning of my social work career, and I started a support group for birth kids out of that agency and then kind of like invited other agencies eventually or rather like families from other agencies and just had it. It wasn't like an every week thing, it was like during Christmas break or a couple times during the summer, like it was that kind of thing. But that's really where I was like, oh, I really love to do this, I want to do more of this. There's nothing for these kids. And then, yes, fast forward and I'm becoming a therapist and I'm like I'm going to do a group, I'm going to do a group for bio kids. And then it's like, well, since, like it's just wild how this stuff unfolds.
Speaker 2:Like a friend of mine was like, hey, would you do a training for our agency? And I'm like, yeah, I suppose I could come up with something. I didn't have any intentions of doing that and it wasn't even related to birth kids, but they just knew my experience in foster care, adoption, so they had me do this training. So I write this training. When I write this training I'm like I could write another training and this one could be about birth kids. So I do that and then I decide, well, if I'm going to write more trainings, I should just start an organization so that I can do these trainings.
Speaker 2:And so it just like all snowballed. And it's not snowballing, for like the fact that I've always had this dream in my head and I've always wanted to whatever. It's just like, oh, these little steps have helped me realize kind of the path that I want to walk in. So it wasn't like one day I'm going to grow up and be a therapist and work with birth kids. That was never anywhere on my radar. It was just like one step after another after another. And now I'm working with families and parents literally across the world, like teaching, training, like people in other countries have my book. Like it's just wild to me that, like the small little things, or even like the fact that, like 10 year old me could have never imagined that this would be like what my life looks like now.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it so much I'm having another one of those like moments where I'm like this is Like I am having another one of those like moments where I'm like this is it is because it's because of what we just what I just touched on Parents can feel such tremendous weight pressure, guilt. The point of this podcast is that like we get into this world and then everything happens behind closed doors, right, and then everything happens behind closed doors, right, and you start living this life that's like wild and chaotic and crazy and beautiful and lovely, and you're like I don't have words for this. I mean, even today I'm texting in my group, community group, at church. I'm texting they're like hey, does anybody have any prayer requests? And here I'm putting down a kid again that we are. That has been the same kid. I mean, nope, two weeks ago it was a different kid.
Speaker 1:But this particular child that is just. You know, she's starting the year off really being very clear that she needs some more support and without any words to be able to say that Right and so, and she doesn't know how to tell us what support that she needs. And so I've just kind of been like with our group like, hey, what I need is for the Lord to show us what she needs so that we can help get the support she needs in school. And I'm starting to send this text and I'm like, rebecca, how many times are you going to send this? Like other people can move on, like other people can just be like, oh, pray for Aunt Susie, or pray you know like I'm way simplifying it, but it feels so heavy, right.
Speaker 1:And then and you know that life was normal normal in air quotes before this you know that your kids had that. You know what you're, you know what you brought your kids into and then you're like maybe I did ruin their life. Maybe maybe they're going to grow up and like they're going to hate me, or maybe they're going to grow up and they're going to hate Jesus. If your family is, is, um, a Christian family, like it's a. It is a fear that, um, I have had many, many times on this journey is what have I done? And what is beautiful about your story is that it all matters. And it wasn't that you woke up and said like, oh, I'm going to go, I'm going to go be a voice for these kids that feel voiceless at 10 in their family. It's that you said, yeah, I can do that. I have this experience, I know what. And then you're like, oh, I, I know how to do this training because I experienced it and I know.
Speaker 2:Well, and not just experience. I have the professional side of it too. I have the parent side of it too. Like I'm not and that's one thing I've tried I worked really hard to do is not to just like train from from me, right? Not just train from like my personal experience as a birth kid, because that's not really that helpful.
Speaker 2:Like, honestly, if you look for birth kids who are resentful and who are angry, you will find them. If you look for birth kids who have nothing negative to say about their experiences and it's been, you know, sunshine and butterflies you will find them. And so I try really hard to not do either of those things and to use what we know of the research and then pulling in personal and professional experiences to make sure it is well-rounded. Because I don't want it to be just me, because, not that my story is invalid, because obviously it's very valid, but I want to make it really clear to anyone in my trainings or on social media or reading my books that, like, this is not about me, this is about all birth kids, and so to only tell my story feels like it's cheapening the intensity that this is not just about me, this is about so many kids across our country and, honestly, across the world.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love it. I can get like I can feel myself sometimes getting so narrow, so like I mean, I'm so in it in my own life that it's hard to pull myself. Like, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to pull myself out of having blinders. And when you said like there's birth kids that don't have a single like a single complaint, I'm like where, where, where are they? I felt that inside of me I'm like, oh, I'll go look for those kids.
Speaker 2:Where are those kids? But is it that they don't have a single complaint or that they're not safe? They don't feel safe enough to share those.
Speaker 1:I don't know if we know the answer. I don't know if we know the answer. Yeah, I'm like I don't, I don't know. I would hope that I know that there's a lot of different ways to walk out this life and that that's. Man, what are your favorite? This is going to be such a open-ended question that's going to maybe be hard to answer, but what are your favorite soap boxes to jump on for in the work that you do?
Speaker 2:um. One of my favorites is when uh yeah, favorite is a weird word um necessary soap box sure like soap boxes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jump on that yeah, I think probably the very biggest one is giving birth kids a voice, because a lot of times parents will be like, well, I give them a voice, they ask them and they share and whatever, and and even if birth kids are honest, right, like they're giving them a voice. But the problem then comes with we've given them a voice. And then what if we don't do anything about it? What if they say, like this is hard, this has ruined everything? Um, I don't want you to adopt them. Or, uh, this is hard and I feel like I don't get any time with you. Uh, this is hard. And um, I feel like I have so much responsibility that's been put on me because of this. And then we don't change anything as parents.
Speaker 2:What good is having a voice if our voice holds no power and agency? And so that is like a huge soapbox I have when, in terms of birth kids is like, yeah, great, give them a voice, but if they say, no, I don't want to foster, and you foster anyway, what does that say about how much their voice matters? And it doesn't mean that, like, our kids should hold all the cards. We all know this. Right, my kid says I want, you know chocolate, milk and like Reese's peanut butter cups for breakfast, and like I don't care what their voice says, they're not eating that for breakfast.
Speaker 2:So like we obviously know, there's going to be times where like, yeah, thank you for giving me your voice. We're going to have to go in a different direction, but that's just something that is just like I feel so strongly about that. We can't come in and be like, well, we gave everybody a voice, yeah, but what did their voices say? Did some people's voices hold more power than others? How are people feeling? What message does it communicate? Whether we intend for it to communicate a certain message or not, what message does it communicate to our birth kids? What will they? What story will they tell themselves about that?
Speaker 1:so that's probably my what's the one right underneath it?
Speaker 2:um, let's see, I don't, I don't know, of course, I'll think of it. Probably afterwards, after we are done with this, I'll be like, oh, that would have been a better second tier. Um, maybe just the both and of it, okay, of just because I I mean even I just said like, if you look for bio kids who are resentful and hateful about their experiences, you will find them. And that is like, and honestly, not just bio kids, I mean kids, you know, former foster youth, people who have been adopted, like you'll find anybody who's resentful and angry and whatever. And if you look for people who are like, oh, this is so, I'm so thankful, and you know, like fluffy, whatever, you'll find them too.
Speaker 2:And so I it's really hard for me, honestly, to sit in that middle space. I it's so funny because growing up I always felt like I was like this is right, this is right, like there were always really clear boundaries, and now I work in the gray. No, it's not just this. And it's not just this, it's this. Why can't it be that, like we can be frustrated at how the system failed us and we can love our family deeply, like these things that don't often, aren't often allowed to coexist. Like so often, it's just the positive or it's just the negative, and we need to do a better job of allowing those things to come together, because I just feel like we don't.
Speaker 1:How do we allow them to come together better? That's a poorly worded question, but how do you hold both things? What's one way that you can hold both things?
Speaker 2:Well, part of it is just being okay with hearing the hard, because I feel like we tune out the stuff that's too hard, we don't want to hear it, we don't look for it, but we look for the feel good. I mean, that's what we're all doing on social media all the time looking for the places that we like their aesthetic and we like the content that they post. We want to find the things that help us feel good, and so we feel good when we find, oh, my birth kid grew up and they fostered, you know, 200 children of their you know as well and they like, right, like those are feel good stories. I mean, if we're being honest, rebecca, you probably would not have reached out to me if my story was all boo, hiss, I hate my life, right Like. We know that there has to be some sort of redemption piece for us to have any feel good or connection to the story, whatever that story is, and so.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, stories are what we love as people. We love stories, we love narratives, and so if we only give fluff, there's no story there. People want stories, they want real, because that's what we're all living is real stories. They want stories they want real, because that's what we're all living is real stories, and so maybe that's it. Maybe that's how we pull the two things together is, stop telling little snippets, but tell our stories, Tell the whole thing, instead of keeping it so small in tidbit social media nuggets. Maybe we just need to do a better job of telling stories.
Speaker 1:You wrote a story.
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah, wow, that was a great segue. It was such a good segue.
Speaker 1:You set it up for me perfectly. Also, let's just pause. I wanted to make the segue perfect and then I also wanted to just pause and say 100%. You're right that the redemption of your story is one of the things that was so compelling to me, but it is honestly also and I think this is my personality driven side it was that you didn't shy away from, like you were able to say things that my kids have said to me and you, but you didn't say it with resentment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you didn't like you said it in such a way that's like this is true and also like you held that what. What you just said was your soapbox. You held up on that stage and I felt like how do I, how do I get this in front of people? How do I, how do I help me, help Daniela, get in front of more people? Um, I am like truly I mean I was just standing up in front of my board like talking about you yesterday that I talk about you way more than you realize, because I want you in front of people. I want your voice, this voice that doesn't shy away from the heart, that's not resentful of it either, to be heard in this community thank you though.
Speaker 1:Anyhow, back to my perfect segue. Um, you wrote a story.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did tell me about this story so years ago, this is something I had thought about, like I told like I never like dreamed of being a therapist for birth kids, right, like it's not, like that was like on my mind when I was 12 or whatever, but I had thought about writing a book for bio kids and then, as I started kind of getting into working more with families, you know, with bio kids too, I was realizing there's actually a lot of books, honestly, that have been written specifically for bio kids, for birth kids, and so then became well, I don't really need to fill that gap then, because there's like I've literally put together just a list of books that have been written for birth kids and there's, honestly, a surprising number of them, however, and none of them are bad. Right, I'm not like dogging on the books, but they're a lot more intellectual than they are emotional, because a lot of times, parents are looking for, like how do I help my birth kids know about what to expect, or how do I help them understand the system? That's kind of their thought on the front end. And so the books are all important, have their purpose, right, they like they all hold space, that that needs to be there. But when I looked at all of the books and the story that I felt like needed to be shared in general, it was so much bigger than, like, the specifics and logistics of foster care, right, and so my book really doesn't have any logistical pieces, it pretty much just talks about. The only thing it, uh explicitly talks about that gets close is that it talks about how her, uh, the main character, lily, her family uh had kiddos come stay with them because it wasn't safe at their home. That's about it, and so it doesn't get into the weeds of worker visits and what about when this kid goes home? That's not there, Right? Because I wanted it to tell a story of an emotional story, an engaging story, emotional story, an engaging story.
Speaker 2:And the crazy part about all of this is that I wrote this story specifically with birth kids in mind. The main character is a birth kid. She is, she's been in her family, she, right, that's the main character. But the wild thing is that, as I was like sending out my draft to like friends and professionals, I knew kind of in my circle people who are not birth kids are like oh man, that was beautiful. I cried and I'm like what you? What are you crying about. How do you even identify with this? Because I realize that, though the main character has a very specific background, right the feelings are across the board universal
Speaker 2:we all know what it's like to feel forgotten. What about like when a new person, like is hired and all of a sudden everybody loves them. Or what about new kid joins a classroom like. There's so many times in our lives when we're like I nobody sees me, nobody sees I'm wiping butts, to use what nobody sees this Right, and so we all know what it's like, and so I was finding that, yeah, this main character a hundred percent. I wrote this book for birth kids, but then I made it even more general so that the story can go further, so yeah, yeah, emotions are universal.
Speaker 1:Everybody can tap into knowing what it feels like to be replaced, forgotten.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess I didn't talk much about the actual book itself.
Speaker 1:The book itself. There's a girl.
Speaker 2:I was going to say. There's a girl, a new kid, joins a family and all of a sudden, like people aren't noticing her anymore, neighbors her friends like they're just not seeing her the way that they saw her.
Speaker 2:And so she, you know, in a comical twist, she thinks that she must have turned invisible, and so she's trying to figure out how she can change herself back. And so she does, like these things, and she still feels invisible. And then her parent is able to come and give insight, to say you're not invisible, and then, kind of like this is what is happening. And then mom is able to look back and say I saw you when, I saw when, and like that's the part that that's really where I mean I would be.
Speaker 1:I would be done of just. There's so many times in life when you want somebody to be like I saw. I had eyes on you.
Speaker 2:I had eyes on you and then there's a part of, there's a part of like things start to change there and I've actually had people ask me, like what changed? Like did the mom call people up and like that's why things were different? Or like what gives? And I said, well, I kind of left it open-ended on purpose, because what happened? Was it a combination? Like did the mom advocate for her daughter and say, hey, friend, you've kind of been leaving my kid out. Is there a way you could make sure to include them too? Okay, maybe that happened. Maybe the main character lily, maybe her perspective changed because she was able to have some insight from her mom. You know, like we don't, we don't know, and I did that on purpose, like we don't really know necessarily, because it's supposed to be open-ended for, kind of the interpretation there. But don't you wish you did know?
Speaker 1:I don't, I wrote it but, like in life, you have such like grace with that kind of stuff. In conversations with you, you seem to wrestle with that less than somebody with my personality. Like. I want to know, I want to control, I want to be able to pinpoint what is the and yeah, this isn't a therapy session.
Speaker 2:But you know, I told you what you need to know in the book. I told you how the mom responded, in love and empathy and showing that she saw her daughter, and you don't need to know the specifics of what she did afterwards, because her daughter felt seen by her. And that is the message that I wanted parents to get. If they're not also feeling like parents to get, if they're not also feeling like, oh, I'm seen and I'm cared for, even if they're not getting that message, hopefully they're getting the message that this is who I can be for my child too yeah, to show up and to show up with empathy right at the end of every podcast, we have a lightning round and we're just I'm just gonna ask three quick questions, um, answer as quick as you can, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, what is on your nightstand right now?
Speaker 2:Way more books than I care to admit.
Speaker 1:I love that Um books make me feel comfortable. I love books. Um, what song do you want to have played at your funeral?
Speaker 2:oh, um, wow, maybe just as good. Okay, which is by, uh, man, I don't even know how to say his last name, chris renzema, but it's featuring ellie holcomb, who I love her, um, but yeah, it's a song like saying like to god, like, you're still just as good as when I met you, you're still just as kind, don't let me to forget. You're still the same God who led me through the fire, like all those things. So I would say that would maybe be the one that, because I would want those at my funeral to remember that in that moment, god is still just as good, yeah.
Speaker 1:Last question what is bringing you life right now?
Speaker 2:Crocheting, spending time with my kids doing a Bible study at my church that just started a few weeks ago. I love baking and cooking. Going on walks keeps me sane.
Speaker 1:Those things.
Speaker 2:Being with my people.
Speaker 1:Being with your people.
Speaker 2:What's the Bible study on amos amos? Have you ever studied amos? It's wild ride.
Speaker 1:What is that like? Four chapters? How many chapters is amos in the bible?
Speaker 2:I don't remember I feel like it's got to be more than it's got to be more than four, because I'm already in like like halfway through chapter three and it's only the second week, so it's got to be like at least eight.
Speaker 1:I would think, oh, I started googling. I started googling Amos instead of my Bible app. Hold on, we're going to find out nine nine.
Speaker 1:okay, yeah, I mean, I'm intrigued. Daniela, thank you so much for being with us and coming on the show and for all of the work you do supporting foster and adoptive families. Thanks for having me, gosh. Wasn't that such a great conversation? I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did and that something that we talked about brought you hope. If you loved this episode, share it with a friend. I want everybody to feel like they're not alone. I also want to remind you that it's okay if you disagree with something that we said today. If there were parts of this conversation that felt just a little too honest for you, that's fine. Our journeys aren't all the same. We're not going to respond to them the same. My hope for you is that today, in some way, whether large or small, that you feel seen and that you know that you're not walking this road alone. I love hearing from you, so leave us a comment and let's keep the conversation going. I'll talk to you soon.