Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Each episode will feature a conversation between host Rebecca Harvin and foster/adoptive caregivers or members of the community who support foster care and adoption.
Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Breaking Down IEPs: A Foster Parent's Guide to School Advocacy
Educational advocate Trina Middleton shares her 30+ years of special education experience to help parents navigate the complex world of school advocacy for children with special needs, particularly in foster and adoptive families.
• Recognizing red flags in struggling students: lack of motivation to learn, resistance to reading, and inability to complete homework independently
• The importance of early intervention—waiting until third or fourth grade creates wider learning gaps
• Understanding the "Response to Intervention" (RTI) three-tier system of support
• Differences between 504 plans and IEPs (Individualized Education Plans)
• Learning the language of advocacy through Department of Education websites, other parents, and tools like ChatGPT
• Parent rights in the IEP process, including requesting meetings, reviewing data, and participating in goal-setting
• Federal protections including "free and appropriate public education" (FAPE) and limits on suspensions
• The value of bringing an advocate to meetings and maintaining positive relationships with school staff
• How to request and review data tracking to identify patterns in behavior and learning
• Setting meaningful goals that address the child's actual needs rather than accepting generic "banked" goals
Your child's diagnosis doesn't change who they are. Knowing only helps you advocate and opens doors for the interventions and services that will ultimately take your child to their full potential.
Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us today. On Behind the Curtain I'm your host, rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. Today on the show is my friend and champion advocate, trina Middleton. She has 20 years of background in special education. She is the person that I call when I need to know how to better advocate for my kids, and today she's going to teach us how to know what to do, where to start and what in the world we are doing when we are advocating for our kids in the school system. So, without further ado, I hope that you enjoy this conversation with my friend, trina.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hi, trina. So just a little bit of background on myself before all these other people are getting to join in our conversation. I have close to 30 years now, really. I have close to 30 years now, really 20 years of direct educational experience with a special needs population, mostly in autism, but not completely. And I have worked in both the public and the private sector of schooling and again mostly with younger students, but not solely so. I have worked with individuals all the way up through high school and post high school and knowing that those needs vary depending on the setting that kids are in. And so, funny enough, like I went into teaching and specifically teaching children with special needs for the love of children, but very quickly realized what was keeping me in.
Speaker 2:It was truly the love of the parents. Oh, because I think that any parent with a child with special needs, for the most part especially if it's the first child that they are walking this road with they need an ally, like I think we feel, judged as a parent with kids with needs. Yeah, and yeah, and nobody like. Most kids that have struggles in school aren't because it's the parent's fault, right, like there are circumstances, or there are genetics, or there are challenges that have occurred that have created scenarios where these kids need additional support. But I think, as parents, we feel like there must have been something that we did.
Speaker 1:Or aren't doing.
Speaker 2:Or didn't do right, like we didn't read enough to them when they were little and that's why they can't read. We didn't do enough spatial relationship toys, and that's why they can't do this, that and the other. And the reality of it is is that it doesn't matter why they can't do it at this point. If we're in the educational process and kids are struggling, we've got to figure out how to move them forward.
Speaker 1:So what are the signs of a kid who is struggling at school?
Speaker 2:Great question. So I think it's. You know, some of it is obvious, right. Performance is lower than their peers and a teacher might express concern. But I think one of the biggest indicators to me with early learners that are struggling is their lack of motivation to learn, because we don't do things that are hard. Right, if you're a struggling reader, you don't want to read with mom at home. Yeah, if math is hard, you don't want to do numbers and counting. But typical children who don't struggle are enthusiastic learners, because that's innately how kids develop.
Speaker 1:I feel like my brain is exploding currently, right now, because I'm thinking about Zoe and I'm thinking about how much she never liked to read with me at home. She never liked to read with me at home and that later years into school we find out she's one point away from a learning disorder in relation to reading and we have struggled with reading her whole academic career so far, and more testing and more unfolding gives us a little bit more answers, right, but I'm just going back to those early three-year, four-year, five-year-old second grade and she's like I hate this.
Speaker 2:Right, and so that is the big piece that I want people to take away from this conversation is that the earlier we identify a red flag and take steps and action on that, the better. Again, I think parents who are like Zoe's, your oldest right, yeah, so if you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1:Right, I just thought, thought, what a bummer. I love to read and my daughter doesn't like to read. I want nothing more than to sit on the couch and read with my kids for like an afternoon, and it will never happen with my oldest too, and and zoe in particular, um, and I didn't. I just was like not all kids like to read.
Speaker 2:I think that's true of adults. All adults don't like to read. I think we get through a place of deciding whether we enjoy reading or we don't enjoy reading. But I think for children they are innately curious learners and typically developing children will enjoy reading math, science, all of the things initially, and they might gravitate towards one more than the other, no doubt. But again, it's based on how easily their brain processes that information. Their brain processes that information. So if you have a young learner, a five or six year old in kindergarten, who's learning those first sight words and learning how to read, and they're resistant to it, there's probably an underlying reason and we need to get to that reason.
Speaker 1:Okay, so red flag number one is lack of motivation and, along with the lack of motivation, resistance.
Speaker 2:Yep and obviously performance.
Speaker 1:And then performance. You know Okay.
Speaker 2:Any other red flags at the top of your brain. If they're coming home with homework that they are not able to do independently, I would say that 99% of educators don't send homework home that the kids are not able to do independently. So if they can't do it independently, that would be a red flag that maybe we need to have a conversation with the teacher about performance at school to have a conversation with the teacher about performance at school.
Speaker 1:That's so weird that you say that, because I feel like I say that to my kids when they're like I don't know. The teacher's never taught me what two plus two is and I'm like I promise you that your teacher did Like I promise they're like I don't, I couldn't. We never did this at school today. And so, aside from the humor of that situation that probably all parents experience with kids trying to get out of homework At some point or another, at some point or another you're saying that there's an underlying thing here of no, if your kid consistently cannot do homework, kid consistently cannot do homework. There's a missing piece, correct Okay?
Speaker 2:Correct, and so that kind of brings us to like what is the first step of addressing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's my next question.
Speaker 2:What is the first step of addressing right a concern? And I think that first step starts with just really open communication with the school, obviously directly with the teacher first. But again, I think parents who haven't navigated public school or any school setting for that matter, if it's their first kiddo that's struggling they don't really know what to ask or what the steps should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so with Zoe. So this happens with Zoe. I see her struggling by second third grade. I'm like she's a little too smart to be having these issues in reading and not being able to find the main idea. That was a big one. She couldn't find the main idea and I would email the teacher and they would say Zoe's a great student, zoe's wonderful, and I'm like, well, she's an easy student. Is what you mean to say Like that is so can you walk us through that? Like we contact the teacher? Now some of our kids the teacher is contacting us, but for the ones that we see the problem and we have to contact the teacher, if you get that feedback, how do you navigate that within?
Speaker 2:the school system. But there is times where you're going to kind of start and then they don't really indicate there's a further problem, but you and your gut, your mommy gut, tells you there is something more to it. So I think sometimes you might have to go looking more towards a private psychoeducational evaluation which will give you kind of all of the answers of processing time, of IQ, of spatial relations, I mean. An in-depth psychoeducational testing is invaluable if you are looking for a reason for the struggles.
Speaker 2:Granted, they'll cost you around $1,000, depending upon where you are in the states and what services are available to you in the states and what services are available to you Public school will do that testing as well, but only if they see and agree with you of the significant struggles.
Speaker 2:So the communication is key and I think that teachers knowing that you are not pointing a finger at them as to why the kids are struggling, right, and that you just say gosh, I noticed that Zoe is really struggling and she doesn't like reading and it concerns me and you know where is her performance related to others in the class? Is there other interventions that we can be doing? In public school, at least in the state of Florida, there is response to intervention procedures that teachers innately do within the class. So every student in the classroom is at tier one for response to intervention. They all get a certain amount of accommodation and extra teaching and things as they're going through their day. But if the teacher recognizes that they're still struggling, there should be a discussion about moving to tier two interventions.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're starting to use the language of advocacy now.
Speaker 2:Right and so, but I think that also then comes with as as a good advocate for your kid, rather than just having a note that goes back and forth with the teacher, or some teachers are kind and share their cell numbers I know they're really getting away from that at this point and using platforms, but putting your concerns in writing is also key, and asking for your child to get intervention is key.
Speaker 1:Okay, you mentioned cell phone numbers and I'm like, unless you have children like mine, and then you have teacher cell phone numbers because they are texting you in the middle of class oh my God, what am I supposed to do right now? And then you provide interventions of your own, but you're using I want to stop for just a second, because this part was wild to me that there's a different language around advocacy in schools. And so, in the same way that, like when I started working at a corporate job, the first time there's a different corporate language that's used, there's a different language in schools, and I would never know a tier one intervention, what even is that? Response to intervention, what even is that? And so, for the parent, that's like me, where do you find this? How do you educate yourself as a parent, knowing I'm about to have to become a parent advocate for my kid, which is different than just parent right how do you, where do you go to teach yourself even the vernacular of advocacy?
Speaker 2:so that's a great question. Obviously, every state has a Department of Education and truly going to for us, the Florida Department of Education website and clicking on the exceptional student education link will literally give you all of the definitions and rights that you, as a parent, and that your child has within the public school system.
Speaker 1:So it's going to that website with a pen and a piece of paper and taking notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that, as artificial intelligence has come along as well, and our other opportunities of being able to Google, asking questions like, just simply provide me a list of the accommodations in the state of Florida for students with exceptionalities and boom.
Speaker 1:You guys, if you can see my face, I'm like Trina. That's brilliant. Well, because it's a lot quicker than having to navigate through the website and figure out the website and all of those things Just going to chat GPT and saying, hey, can you give me a list of accommodations that a child with ADHD in grade three might receive at an elementary school in Duval County? Because that's where we are Correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really, and it's almost as easy as Alexa play whatever song you want, but finding those things out. And so one of the big things that parents don't realize and I think, when we talk about kids in the foster and adoptive system or life, so many of them have diagnoses of anxiety, potentially, or ADHD. Those two in particular are diagnoses that easily qualify for a 504 plan. Easily qualify for a 504 plan that term in and of itself for parents who've not navigated is like well, what's a 504?
Speaker 1:That is exactly the question that I asked when they approached me about Slade.
Speaker 2:So a 504 plan is a plan that, due to a specific diagnosis or struggle that a kid is having, there are special accommodations that they can have to support their educational process in the regular general education classroom.
Speaker 1:Okay. Medical diagnosis.
Speaker 2:There is multiple diagnoses that they could qualify for with ADHD, autism, diabetes, anxiety, hearing or vision impairments. Some learning disabilities don't necessarily qualify for an IEP. They can get by with just a 504. And so obviously I just brought up the IEP. An individualized educational plan is different than a 504.
Speaker 1:In what way?
Speaker 2:And so that's the general question that most parents have. Well, how is that different? Which one do I know to ask for? Typically, I would say start with a 504, unless there's a lot of issues. Right, just start with just some accommodations within the classroom. Good teachers do a lot of that on their own. That's undocumented, but if you have serious concerns, you want to have it documented.
Speaker 1:Which I think is some of the feedback that I receive as a mom is well, we're doing this already. We don't need this in the 504. And it's like well, that's great. And also for different kids. Right are in public schools. Four of them have either a 504 or an IEP, which is a wild. Um, that's a. That's a club I didn't think I was ever going to be in, for different reasons. What were you going to say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so myself as well. Um, you know, we entered into adoption almost six years ago now, and of the three that we adopted, one already had an IEP coming to us, and we knew that, I know. I honestly didn't think the other two would end up needing any special accommodations within the school system. Did I think they needed therapy? Did I think they needed other things? Yeah, absolutely. But lo and behold, three out of three now have IEPs, and so I did have to put on that different parent hat and sit on the other side of the table, which was interesting for me. What surprised you? I don't know that it surprised me, but it obviously just gave me a new perspective of that feeling of you know, and I think, as a special educator, I should have been able to fix this, I should have been able to identify this. So a really key thing that I want people that are listening to our conversation today to know is that my as I call her, my middle little they always presented to us as super bright, veryational, very energetic, very entertaining.
Speaker 2:Loved going to school, um, but in kindergarten didn't want to try to read themselves, wanted us to read mm-hmm and then come first grade when they did reading fluency testing they had like 12 was their reading fluency per minute by the middle of the year in first grade and everything in me was that there must be a reading learning disability, she must have dyslexia. There must be a bigger deal. But because she was so cute and so entertaining and so bright and so able to articulate comprehension, when spoken to the teacher was like no, she's fine, I mean it'll catch up. I don't want to retain her and I'm like she can't read.
Speaker 2:So going into the summer, between first and second grade, I said there has to be something more. I need to get this kid tested. The school system's not looking at the testing. I need to get tested. So I took her to a private evaluator and this is kind of a funny story. So the first session was scheduled for the afternoon and it was supposed to be a 45-minute testing session and the evaluator came out after about 20 minutes and said is she always this distracted? And I said, well, no, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:And she's she's not my distracted kid.
Speaker 2:No, she said Well, I mean it is late in the afternoon, so I was just wondering, is it hard for her in the afternoons? And I was like no, not typically. And she said, ok, well, let's just start over tomorrow morning. Bring her back tomorrow morning. I said OK, so I show up the next morning with her bright eyed and bushy tailed, she sits down for testing. The evaluator comes out again after 20 minutes and looks at me and says has anybody said ADD to you?
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, and.
Speaker 2:I said what no Like, was truly caught off guard. Yeah, and I said no, and the evaluator said she cannot attend to save her life. There's no wonder why she cannot read.
Speaker 1:And you're like, oh well, we won't even know, actually, if she has a learning disorder as far as reading comes, until we get this taken care of.
Speaker 2:So totally so.
Speaker 2:doing the testing, the evaluator went through all of very short stints of testing with her because she was not medicated and completed all of her testing with a high gifted IQ and basically on paper, with no medication, a severe learning disability for reading because she could not track it, pull it together and put it through her brain. And as much as I was against medication, honestly I was like no, we can work through this. She was at a critical point in her educational career, so we started second grade with her not being able to read at a fluent kindergarten level and so we had to do something drastic, and we did. We put her on a stimulant no-transcript.
Speaker 1:This is one of the things that I love about you so much, trina, is that you have a very short. I want to say this correctly you have a very solid idea of what you want for your kids and what you want Like we don't want to do medication, we don't want, we're going to try these other things first, and not just about medication but about just life in general. But when you see, or when somebody says, hey, this is actually what's in the best interest of your child, even if it's not something that you want to face as a mom, you're like well, this is what my kid needs. And you did this for me in a conversation about two of my kids when we were in the beginning process of testing and I was adamant to not look in one corner of one of my kids. I was so adamant that I would just ignore this potential diagnosis With another child. We knew that they needed help, it was evident. And I was going to doctor after doctor after doctor trying, and I remember calling you and saying they keep asking me if this kid has autism and she doesn't have, like, why do they keep doing this? And you said and I will never forget it that's not the kid that needs to get tested. And I don't think that there's anybody else in my life who could have said that sentence to me and I would have heard it in the same way and you were like Rebecca, that's not the one that needs to get tested. You do have a kid that needs to get tested for this. And I said, I know, and I don't want to, and so calmly and I think that this is one of the things that I want our audience to hear you said knowing doesn't change who your kid is. No, that is not the thing. You have this beautiful child in your home. Knowing only helps you advocate. Knowing opens the doors for the interventions and the services that are going to ultimately take that kiddo to the potential that you, as mom, see in them.
Speaker 1:I think that this is a step in the process that can come, you know, step one or step 10 by the time that you kind of get there, and with this one of my children it was almost like step 10. We knew that there were other things, there were things I could look at and get interventions for, but this one took a long time for me to be willing to even test for. And so I would like to add to your first red flag or motivation, resistance. First step, talk to the teacher. Somewhere in our step by step process we have to say you have to acknowledge, as the parent, that there might be something here Like there. You have to acknowledge, even parent, that there might be something here Like. You have to acknowledge even if it's something like with you and middle little going maybe she has a reading diagnosis, like ADD was nowhere on your ballpark.
Speaker 2:Not on my radar.
Speaker 1:But just being willing to say there might be something more Right, and even if it is difficult for me, even if this becomes something, I think, as parents, we're fearful of putting more labels on our kiddos. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:But the reality is is that nobody needs to know those labels other than those that are closest to them and working with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that there really truly is a time when labels can help.
Speaker 2:There truly is a time when labels can help, and especially in the world of autism. Like I said, I have the majority of my years of experience. Are kids on the spectrum and unfortunately there are therapies that are not available to anybody unless they have that ASD diagnosis, which is applied behavior analysis. You cannot get an insurance company to pay for it if the child does not have an ASD diagnosis, and that is one of the therapies that is most beneficial to kids on the spectrum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that one's next on our list. But I'm in this like only one thing at a time. I can only do the next thing, which is, I think, another step for parents. But that's me talking as a parent is sometimes with some of our kids are so much and you can only do the next right thing. You can't take the whole picture and just attack the whole picture. Do you know what I'm trying?
Speaker 1:to say you just have to do like, okay, what is most available and, right here, that we all have the ability to do right now in this season.
Speaker 2:And I think pinpointing the starting point, like pinpointing the underlying reason, is that first step and then there's multiple ways of trying to attack that challenge that they're having due to that reason. So for me to share what the audience would be, that earlier the better, yeah, and so don't wait till third or fourth grade, because what happens is the gap gets bigger and bigger.
Speaker 2:There is so much learning that occurs between kindergarten and third grade. I mean, just think about the developmental changes in their brain from kindergarten and third grade. I mean just think about the developmental changes in their brain from kindergarten to third grade. And if you've waited until third grade, until state testing requires a retention, you've done a disservice to yourself and that child and the trajectory of their scholastic career.
Speaker 1:The best time to plant a tree is yesterday, and the next best time is today. So if you have waited, okay, great, like what's done is done, and now let's look at this. So, circling back though, the teacher has tell me the words again, ready to intervene. Response to intervention. Response to intervention. This is how little of the language I know. And they're doing tier one, and then you are emailing and you're asking for tier two interventions. And then in your case you added that tier three, so there are three tiers.
Speaker 2:There's three tiers and basically that language response to intervention is looking at how does the child respond when we put more interventions in place and if they can make progress with those interventions then maybe we can avoid having to have an individual educational plan where specific services need to be put into place and the child has to be removed from the general education setting or has to have services that are pushed in. So I look at the 504 and the RTI as less invasive services.
Speaker 1:As does the school system. The school system definitely looks at it and says can we start? That's one of the things that they asked me with one of my kids when we knew that we needed services. Can we start with a 504? And I said you can start with it whatever you want to, but I'm pretty sure she's going to get an IEP very quickly. And she did. But this is, you said RTI response to intervention. So tier one, two, three happen in the class prior to a 504 or an IEP.
Speaker 2:They can go alongside a 504.
Speaker 1:Okay, they're going to happen before an IEP. Yes, typically do the basics of like. By this point, if tier three is not working and it's being tracked, the school is also telling you okay, we're doing this. The school is looking how can we help? Because they don't want to retain students? And we're working with best interest, right, like we're assuming the other person has the best interest of your child. They have other best interests as well, but we're assuming that your child is part of it and they want what is best.
Speaker 1:Teachers want your child to learn. Like that is what I go into every meeting with this teacher wants my child to succeed. So they might be saying at this point, hey, we do need an IEP. So they might be saying at this point, hey, we do need an IEP. And that's my experience is that the school has asked for the IEPs for my kids. And then you go into the meeting and there's a whole lot of like what are we doing in this meeting? There's a lot of rounds of nope. This meeting was just to determine are they eligible for an IEP. Step one are they eligible? And we have to determine eligibility. Then we are going to do all of the testing that's going to happen. So, basically, the first thing you're going to do is you're going to go into a meeting and you're going to sign a bunch of papers is my experience.
Speaker 2:Right giving your permission for all of that testing and as, again, a parent and an educator, I would say ask for all of it. If there's any language concern, ask for a language evaluation. If there's any fine motor concern, ask for an occupational therapy assessment as well. Get all of the assessments that you possibly can if you're going to be assessing.
Speaker 1:And the way that we know what assessments are available is Florida Department of Education website, ChatGPT, Google, other parents. All of the above, talking to people who have IEPs and saying, hey, what assessments did they have to do?
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things that I hear a lot of parents say to me is yeah, they said that, you know it just takes a long time. You know there's not a lot of availability for the testing. It's going to be after the summer. The reality of that is is that there are specific laws related to timelines of parent requests and those may vary by state. And I would say, go to chat, GPT or go to that state website and ask, because if you put, if you give consent for testing in a meeting where they requested your consent and you've signed your consent for testing, they by law have 60 days calendar days, not school days 60 days to complete that testing. So there are specific timelines on it.
Speaker 2:So the key is getting those meetings scheduled and held and getting your signature on there to get things moving Again. Once you have an IEP, they'll tell you well, we meet once a year and review the IEP. By law, they have to meet once a year and review the IEP. By law, they have to meet once a year to review that IEP. But if you still have concerns related to goals that are on that IEP or not on that IEP, you have the right to request an IEP meeting at any time and if you put that in writing, it's a 10-day turnaround that they have to schedule a meeting within 10 days of your request.
Speaker 1:And that is a federal law.
Speaker 2:You caught me there. It might be a Florida law. It might be a federal law.
Speaker 1:When we were doing prep for this conversation, we mentioned there are federal protections that children have regardless of state, and then there's differences in states, and so I think one of the things that you might want to do as a parent if you're listening to this with concerns is to research the difference what are their federal rights and then what are their state rights?
Speaker 2:Right, and so that really comes up to the free and appropriate public education. So they call that FAPE.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so here's a fun fact, I just thought that means I get to go to school. And my sister, who's a teacher, when she found out that the school that my kids had previously been at were calling us to come pick up one of our kids and had done that about 20 times, she said well, how is she getting a free and public education if she's at home? And I was like what are you talking about? And then she had to explain to me what that was. You said like no, no, no, they can't do that more than 10 times without going to the school board. These are things I had no idea as a just walking citizen of the world, florida.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of parents don't know what their rights are. Once you have a child that has an IEP or has a, you know, exceptional student education label, they cannot be removed from school for anything that is a manifestation of that label that impulsively does something technically cannot be suspended for more than 10 days without a school board meeting. So 10 days within the school year, not 10 days of one suspension. Right, so they can. They, you know, if they do something impulsive and you know, climb in the toilet and throw water around, you know, climb in the toilet and throw water around.
Speaker 1:I don't know who would do something like that.
Speaker 2:Certainly not a harvester. No, if they did something like that, yes, they can be asked to be picked up, but there are a suspension paper that has to go along with that. It has to be documented that they're being suspended In elementary school. They don't like to call it that. They're like you know, she just needs to regroup and go home and she can come back tomorrow. But that is a legal suspension. If she is not in school receiving her free and appropriate public education, then it should be documented.
Speaker 1:And so, as the parent, you have to say and this is hard for me because I really like to be the nice cop here and one time we were going into a meeting and you were like, okay, so I'm going to go after this, because we were going for a kid who really needed a serious IEP package, um, iep package. And you said to me you, you protect your relationship and you be the nice one and I will be business professional, but I'm gonna be a bulldog. And I was like, great, I love that because it matters to me, especially with children who are challenging in a school setting, um, that I can be challenging in a school setting, that I can be friendly and kind, that the administration and the teachers like me.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? It absolutely does, and I think it's really important to protect your relationship with the school. You are going to get more bees with honey. Yes, you are going to be able to work better as a team if the only reason you're bringing an advocate in is so that they know that you're knowledgeable. Honestly, a lot of times the school themselves don't know all of the ins and outs of the IDEA federal expectations, and so somebody just saying, hey, you know you can't do that and it doesn't have to be in a bulldog way.
Speaker 1:No, it can be very kindly like hey, just to clarify, are you suspending them? And if you are, I need to see that in writing, please. We've learned that that is necessary because we showed up to an IEP for our child who gets sent home often, and they had no referrals and they had no suspensions. And we had already had several referrals and we had already had several suspensions. And we were a month and a half into school and you and I both looked at this and said, no, we need this documented and we want to see it here, which they were hesitant to do on their end. Again, there's best interest involved, but they have other things that they are concerned about on their end, and rightfully so. The sausage has to get made.
Speaker 2:And then there's circumstances where parents will go into IEPs and they will say, well, this student needs 30 minutes of small group reading instruction three times a week. And my pushback on that a lot of times is, where does the three times a week come from? And when they say, well, our ESE teacher services that classroom on Monday, wednesdays and Fridays, I often will push back and say, okay, but this is an individualized educational plan and this kid needs 30 minutes of reading instruction every day. And then the pushback that I often hear is well, we don't have available staff for that. And then again the hard part is to say I'm sorry that you don't have that staffing, but that doesn't change my child's need and the service that he has and so it's not my.
Speaker 2:We don't put on the IEP what you can provide, we put on the IEP what he needs or what she needs and what the expectation is, and unfortunately the school is then to say, but this is all we can provide. Then the district and the state don't get involved with providing more. They need to provide more for the kids that need more. And you've got to be that voice. But I say, you know, just like I went to several meetings with you, just bringing somebody in the meeting with you lets the school know that you're not going to be just kind of placated of. This is what we do and this is why we do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So even if you can find a friend who has experience with this, or if I didn't have Trina, I would call my sister and say, who is both a teacher and a parent that experiences IEPs, and say, hey, come, just be a sounding board, come here, see if there's anything that I'm missing. One of the things that I love to ask, one of the questions that I love to ask, is is there a question I should be asking but I don't know to ask?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and I think that goes back to even when they were sending your kids home from school, like you didn't know that they couldn't do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just called you and was venting and you were like whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. What is happening here? Is there anything left that you would like to touch on before we close?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the other key pieces is that, and it's again, it's an awkward piece to ask for because I think sometimes teachers feel a little threatened by it, or admin at schools feels threatened by it, but ask to see the data. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ask to see your kids work, ask to see the grades, ask if they're on behavior plans, let me see the grades. Asked if they're on behavior plans, let me see the data. I mean. A lot of times our goals say student will do this in four out of five opportunities, at 80% accuracy. Well, where is it?
Speaker 2:A lot of times IEP progress reports come home with, you know, making progress, expected goal completion. That's exactly what it is Making progress, expecting goal completion All the way up to the third quarter of school and then fourth quarter. We're going to carry this goal into next year. Wait what? Why are we carrying that into next year? All the way through the year it was expected goal completion. So I think that's a piece that's important, I think, for all parents, but especially kids who are struggling. Taking the time to have a conference at the beginning's not offered. You be the one to ask for it, because knowing truly what's going on in the classroom is huge. I know, as foster and adoptive families, we are exhausted and we often relish when school gets back into play and the last thing we want to do is be more another appointment or another factor.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:But I think it's critical to be involved and to see what's going on within the classroom setting in order to be able to advocate appropriately. Like you know your kid better than anybody, but a classroom is a different animal, right? You got 20 other little beings in there and a lot of them have issues too, and so some of the things that you know work for your kid at home or in a situation may not be able to be replicated in a classroom setting. But then what do we do? That's where you've got to brainstorm with that school staff and administration and say you know, I know that you want my kid to succeed as much as I do. I know this. How can I help? What can we put into place?
Speaker 1:which we learned. This I learned this year. Very important to look at it, because another thing is like. One of my kids is on a behavior plan. Everything they did all day long was tracked, every transition was tracked, every activity was tracked, so that they could see at the school what the preemptive thing was. Am I saying the right word there?
Speaker 2:The antecedent.
Speaker 1:Yes, yep, precedent and the antecedent. Oh man, I'm jumbling all of the words so that they could see the antecedent. There is a language to advocacy, if you haven't already guessed that. I stumble over. And we noticed, and the teacher did not. This child had an amazing teacher, god bless her. The teacher didn't notice that every time they were going to math, my child was causing a huge disruption in class and the teacher was ascribing it to something else and I was like, wait a second. I've been looking at this for three days.
Speaker 1:I think there's something happening with math, like what's going on there. That's one reason that parents need to see the data is because you know your kid better than anybody else. Another thing that I would like to touch on just briefly is when you're making goals with IEPs, make them the right goals, right. Make them. And we saw this several times this year. There were a handful of times when I was looking at goals going that doesn't make any sense, like this goal. This goal is like can he hop on his left foot? Or something like, something simple like that, where it's like this doesn't actually solve the issue of this kid is a couple grade levels behind. Right.
Speaker 1:And we're talking about. Can they answer WH questions? Right, great, but like, is that going to take a whole year? Or is there like a, and you would work some of the, some of the goals? I would watch you say no, no, this is a foundational goal and he has to be on there. And other times I would watch you and you would say, no, this is, this is. We're trying not to do any work here. Like this is. We need to do more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so a lot of school systems have these banked goals, and so the IEPs are not truly individualized, and so we have to kind of, as parents, advocate for some of that to go away. And some of these teachers have really good experience with writing IEPs and some don't as well. So so realizing that your voice is one of the team you are a member of, the IEP team, is important, and so if you don't understand why a goal is there and you don't have an advocate with you, ask why and ask if there's an underlying, foundational goal that needs to be taught first. I think one of the ones on one of your kids' IEPs was that it was a comprehension goal, but yet there was no fluency goal. Well, you are not going to get comprehension without fluency. If I'm stammering over every word that I'm reading, there's no way I'm going to be able to answer a question. So I wanted fluency tracked.
Speaker 1:And they were. I remember this conversation. They were like why do we have to track fluency? Or you asked for it and they said, oh, we have these test scores. And you said, great, can I see the test scores? And they were like, oh, actually we don't have the test scores and we're talking about. What Trina and I are talking about is we have walked away from every single one of these meetings this year going. We have such a great team here. Right.
Speaker 1:We have such a great team of professionals who genuinely love what they do, who love the children that they're working with, and they're really trying. They're really really trying. So if Trina and I are saying we experience these issues with a five-star team, you will experience these issues with a four-star team. Three-star team, two like, and not every team is a four-star team. Three-star team, two like, and not every team is a five-star team, right?
Speaker 2:right and understand too. Like a lot of parents will say, I'm not signing this IEP Just so you know once it gets to an IEP. You technically don't have to sign that IEP, that's correct and you're signing attendance at the meeting. You're not signing that. You agree with the IEP so that IEP meeting can be extended or it can be held again. You can request another meeting in 10 days and regroup and have another meeting. But refusing to sign the IEP doesn't change any of the services on that IEP or any expectation from the team.
Speaker 1:I was floored when I learned that the first time you don't have to be at the meeting.
Speaker 2:Nope, they can proceed without you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so okay On that note. Any other final thoughts I?
Speaker 2:don't think so.
Speaker 1:Okay, if I know Trina's heart, I will add a final thought, and that is you are not alone. Your kid is not the only one that is struggling, and it's not a reflection of you as a parent, for sure. Your job is to love your child and to do it well, and to keep doing the next right thing in front of you for your kids. And this is hard, guys.
Speaker 1:We're not talking about an easy subject we're talking about. Trina has met me outside of our school with a large Diet Coke and a hug and, like we're going to go do this meeting, we're going to make it through. There's nobody that thinks that the job that you're doing is going to be easy here, but it is possible, and your child has rights and you have rights as a parent. If you were in a public school setting, and even if you're in a charter school, they still have rights, and so we want you to be equipped to know the rights, to know how to advocate, to learn the language of advocacy, because our kids in foster care and our kids that we have adopted need more on average, need more than your typical student. So, on that, we're going to skip lightning questions today unless you want to do them.
Speaker 1:Do you want to do them? Sure, let's do them. Okay, great, what's on your nightstand?
Speaker 2:Oh, on my nightstand a candle and my Bible.
Speaker 1:I guarantee it's the cleanest nightstand of any person that has come on this podcast so far. What book or podcast are you loving?
Speaker 2:Well, it sounds pretty cheesy for me to say it, but this one is the one that I listen to the most Behind the curtain. Oh yeah, I like wait for me to say it, but this one is the one that I listen to the most Behind the curtain. Yeah, I like wait for it to come out. I'm very. It's my fave.
Speaker 1:That makes me so happy. And then, what is bringing you joy right now?
Speaker 2:Summertime, sunshine, you live for summertime. Summertime sunshine, Extra non-stressful time with the kids. Like just not having an agenda.
Speaker 1:Pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, thanks for coming on the show, trina. Was it as bad as you thought that it was going to be.
Speaker 2:It was awkward, but you know I just don't like having a microphone in my face. But I like to chat and I'm very passionate about education and helping kids and families. And I just say, don't be intimidated by the process. Ask the questions.
Speaker 1:Ask the questions. Yeah, all right Thanks.