Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Each episode will feature a conversation between host Rebecca Harvin and foster/adoptive caregivers or members of the community who support foster care and adoption.
Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Soul Care for Weary Foster and Adoptive Caregivers: Support and Restoration
In this episode of 'Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption,' we explore essential soul care for foster and adoptive caregivers experiencing burnout. We share honest stories of exhaustion, striving, and the simple spiritual practices that help restore strength, encourage rest, and sustain leadership from a full cup. Michael Mitchell guides listeners through breath prayer, welcoming prayer, benevolent detachment, and practical ways to stay present amid caregiving challenges.
Listeners will learn about the Cup Principle and signposts of a thriving soul, ways to honor unique rhythms of receiving, and prayer as a powerful tool for listening and emotional release. Techniques such as breath prayer for quick resets, naming difficult emotions without shame, and benevolent detachment are highlighted as vital foster parenting advice for emotional resilience.
This episode also offers centering prayer practices, practical anchors tailored for busy caregivers and leaders, alongside recommended books and adoption resources designed to support caregivers' sustainable soul care journey. Whether you’re a foster parent, adoptive family member, or caregiver advocate, this conversation provides compassionate support for caregivers navigating the complex world of loving children from hard places.
In this episode, you will find:
• the cup principle and signs of a thriving soul
• rhythms of receiving shaped by your unique wiring
• prayer as listening, silence, and movement
• breath prayer for 30-second resets
• welcoming anger and naming emotions without shame
• benevolent detachment to release what you cannot carry
• centering prayer as a thousand returns to God
• practical anchors for busy caregivers and leaders
• books and resources to build sustainable soul care
Email sara@havenretreatsinc.org for more information about the upcoming Mom's Retreat.
Follow us on Instagram:
Haven Retreats- https://www.instagram.com/haven.retreats/?hl=en
Behind the Curtain Podcast- https://www.instagram.com/behind.the.curtain_pod/
Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us today on Behind the Curtain. I'm your host, Rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. If you've listened to the show before, you might have heard me reference today's guest as a coach, a spiritual director, mentor, or a friend. Michael Mitchell is all of those things to me. We met at years ago at a Christian Alliance for Orphans conference where he was, at the time, the director of development. I attended almost every workshop that he taught that year, soaking up his wisdom. And when I returned home to Florida, Michael became my fundraising coach for Haven. While fundraising is still his day job, over the years, Michael's passion for leading ministry leaders into better health for their soul has grown and taken on a life of its own. Today he's on the podcast, not as a foster or adoptive dad, but to teach us how to engage in soul care, which is really to say he's gonna give us some tools to stay open and honest with ourselves and God and invite us into rest. I am so ridiculously excited to introduce you to my friend Michael Mitchell. Michael. Thank you. I know. I was like, when I was writing it, I was like, Michael is gonna freak out over this introduction because I'm not gonna tell him what it is beforehand.
SPEAKER_03:You're hired as my my hype man now for yeah, I could do it. Um good, it's perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I think we need to get one thing out of the way is that I always call you Michael Mitchell. Not actually when we're talking, but in conversation with other people. I only ever reference you as Michael Mitchell.
SPEAKER_03:So you were not the first person to do that. I was something about having a first name and a last name that are very similar like that. It just happens.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I live in the south where people often have two first names. And so, um, anyhow, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you for coming on and um for teaching our audience about soul care. Um, you know, from your own work as um leading the foster care ministry at your church and from engaging at Christian at Christian Alliance for Orphans, also known as KAFO, I'm sure we'll talk about like we'll say it as KAFO, um, and our conversations, how important soul care is. And so um can you start there with just your heart for soul care and your heart for what this um even means? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh wow. So my heart for soul care probably goes back to 2017, 2018. Um, I was well into my career in nonprofit and in fundraising and love Jesus. Uh life was good on on most fronts, and no different than anyone else, had struggles and problems and things like that. And I couldn't have told you this at a time, but I was I was living life in my strength and was not yet familiar with the the cup principle that I learned from uh Jed Mediphon at Caifo. And the cup principle is simple and it's not gonna be profound or surprise anybody. The idea is that we are all a cup and and life, all of life is a pouring out of that cup. And as humans, like we we have deep, deep wells. Like we are, we're big cups. But at some point, we have to start refilling the cup, or or we're gonna we're gonna hit a wall, we're gonna crash, the cup's gonna run dry. When the cup runs dry, we can limp along and kind of do life for a little while until a crisis comes. And and so that was sort of that was my life. I was sort of limping along with a fairly empty cup and found myself in a role that was asking a lot of me, the stakes were really high. If if fundraising went well, it was like, oh wow, people's lives are literally saved. And if fundraising goes bad, like that's those are actual kids somewhere in the world that may not get water. And I was I was carrying all that in a really unhealthy way. And if if things went good, it was like, God, you get the credit for this. And if things went bad, it was like, oh gosh, this is all on me. And so there was a lot of things at play there. A lot of lies at play. And man, I was my cup was empty. I did not have any rhythms of receiving in my life. And I just I remember being at a conference uh at uh it was the Accord Conference. It was in North Carolina at the Billy Graham Conference Center. And I remember going to, and it wasn't about soul care, but there was one session on the last day called Soul Care for Leaders. And I thought, oh, something in me knew that I needed that. I didn't even know what it was. It was probably a Holy Spirit thing. It was like, why don't you go to this conference, this, this session? And I remember walking in the room, and and there was a woman there named Mindy, Mindy Caliguire. She wouldn't know it, but it's just like huge influence on my soul care journey. And I remember the first thing she had us do is she she had us make two lists as a room. List number one was what are the markers of a thriving soul? Creativity, um, joy, uh just you name it, uh, rest, uh, healthy relationships. There's a lot of things that we listed. And then she said, okay, what are the markers of uh a soul that is not healthy, right? A soul that is struggling or that is, you know, empty. And and so we make this list as a room, and then she she puts up both lists. What do you notice about the lists? And there's opposites on them. But what you really noticed is like, wow, which one of them am I? And for me, I was on that side that was not thriving. All those words could have described my life at the moment. And and she helped us in that session. She didn't give us a lot of tools or practices, she just gave us a vision for what a life with a well-nourished, flourishing soul could look like. And I didn't know how, but I thought, ooh, I want that. She cast a vision that I was like, okay, that's that's actually the life I want. And I remember leaving that session, getting in the car, heading back to the airport. It was about a 45-minute drive to the airport, and just bawling my eyes out in the car, praying to God. And I remember him saying, Michael, we're gonna get healthy together, and then I want you to teach other people how to do this. This is 2018. I have no idea what soul care even is, and that would probably mark the beginning of my journey. Uh, it was still probably another two years of fumbling in the dark before I had any real breadcrumbs to follow on that journey. But that's where it always goes back to for me.
SPEAKER_00:Two years of fumbling in the dark, knowing like I'm supposed to be learning something, but not being able to put words around it. And not as soon as you said that, I was like, oh my gosh, God told you from the beginning that you were also going to be teaching this, which to me puts an um pressure on it of which should not be a surprise in our based off of our conversations. Um and it doesn't sound like you received it with pressure, but two years of fumbling, going, okay, I'm looking for something, I'm looking for something, I'm looking for something. There's an answer. And then you stumbled into kind of an answer. How did you how did you stumble into an answer?
SPEAKER_03:Man, total. So this is like this is so random, you know. You start thinking about soul care. Okay, if I can do it a quick aside. Okay, oh what do we need? Oh, spiritual disciplines, right? Okay, what are some spiritual? Oh, well, for me, it's like the song read your Bible and pray every day. Like, okay, that's all my gosh, right? That's that wasn't doing it for me. I was reading my Bible every day. Yeah, I was praying. Now, what I realized later is I had a very, very, very limited view of what prayer was. Um, we can talk more about that later. But that didn't, I'm sure that was doing something. I believe it was doing something, but out of nowhere, I get this email. You mentioned KAFO. CAFO's a big part of my story. I get this email two years later from Keifo. It says, hey, we're we're trying to create a role and a program to help fundraisers at faith-based adoption and foster care agencies embrace fundraising as ministry and as discipleship. And I think as some form of soul care might have even been in the message she sent. I thought, oh, this is interesting. And so it was actually KFO where I first introduced to what I would say was a very robust, not theology of soul care, but a robust like model.
SPEAKER_00:It's how Jed leads the team. Yeah. Yeah. It's not it's his heart for all of the organizations that are part of KFO. It's part of every summit. You see it modeled on the team.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, it was it was modeled and and it and it was it expanded my thinking on what soul care was. Funny thing. So I went into this interview for that role, and we were we were expected to give a 10-minute presentation on anything. It was like it was gonna be teaching and training others, so I think they wanted to see can this guy, and there were two other people there. And this other guy on paper was a better fit. He'd worked at like a large Christian adoption agency much longer than I had, had had larger roles than I had. I have no idea what he presented on. I was gonna come in and and give a 10-minute talk about coffee roasting.
SPEAKER_00:I knew you were gonna say that. I knew you were gonna say that. I was going to don't interrupt him. Don't interrupt him. Okay, keep going.
SPEAKER_03:So this is what I was gonna talk about. And on the flight to DC, I was like, you know what? I should talk about soul care. And and I I did a I did a talk, uh, talk. I mean, I led Jed and the other person there in the interview just through a facilitated experience to try to help them cast a vision for soul care. And and really it was a similar experience to what Mindy had led me through in her conference session two years earlier. And so I do it, and the interview happens, and I and I go and I'm like getting on the elevator. And all of a sudden, Jed Mediffin runs out to the elevator. He like stops the elevator, he's like, Hey, uh, have we talked about soul care? I was like, No, we haven't talked about it. And he said, Have I sent you our our our uh strategic plan for thriving souls? No, I haven't. You haven't done that. And he was like, Well, can you just pray for us in this decision? Because I I really thought I knew who I was supposed to hire, and then you came in and talked about that, and I'm not sure anymore. Well, clearly he was thinking the other guy. Clearly, clearly, so God orchestrated that. He gets me to Keifo. It is this season of healing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And and that was where I first started to find the breadcrumbs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, I love so much that I knew you were gonna talk about coffee roasting. I I will not get over that for a long time. I was like, Michael Mitchell went to a huge job interview, and I guarantee you he was gonna talk about coffee roasting. Because you love it. And because, and but also your heart in fundraising is like um be authentically you, show up as as you are. And so, if you were gonna go for a job in fundraising, you were gonna do it the way that you do it, which is to to just show up as you. So I love that. I love that. Um, by the time that I was at KFO the next year, you were well into that journey because that's how you met us in the fundraising classes, and it's how you met me in the hallway that day, and how like you cared about that we were able to raise enough money for our organizations, but you cared more about our souls in the raising of the money. Um, and it was wildly new to me. Oh, you know what? I also love is the vision for flourishing souls, because I think you had us do something like that for development role in your organization.
SPEAKER_03:Without a vision, without, I mean, we're not we're not going anywhere, right? If we can't have this captivating vision for this thing that we want.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, you talked though about um rhythms of receiving. And I think when we talk about soul care and the work that we do around soul care, it is developing these rhythms of receiving that are a little bit different than um what a typical um Christian response is gonna be to, like you said, this like the disciplines, right? So I'm like, well, obviously, spirit of the disciplines. Um, if you can make it through that book by Dallas Willard, the Lord bless you and keep you. Like that is that's a hard book. Um, but we go there fasting, solitude, um, reading your Bible, doing those things. And I think that you would say all of that is part of this, and also it's developing rhythms of receiving, rhythms of engaging um in different ways. Can you talk about that a little bit?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so there's so many directions we could go. I mean, one's the metaphor of a radio, right? Like at this right now, there is music going on all around us. If we had a radio, we could tune into it, we could hear that music, we would receive that music. It's there always. We're not tuned into it. And so that's that's one way of thinking about it. It's like God's love is like that, and it's always there. And and there are things that we can do to tune our hearts to receive that. And sometimes those are active things, right? So for me, like going on a bike ride, for whatever reason nourishes my soul, sitting outside in the morning and listening to the birds on my back porch. Like those are active things I can do. So there are active things you can do, but also sometimes receiving is just about like holding out your cup and and letting it, you're you're not doing anything necessarily. Like you're you're you're you're doing something to not do something, or or you're letting it happen in the natural rhythms of your day. And so that that's one thing. The other thing that I think about is God has made his children, each of us, very unique and has wired us in ways to receive his love and his goodness in different ways. So for me, sitting and watching a sunset, like I experienced God's love in that moment, getting out into creation, into nature. Um, others, he's created us to like being laughing with a friend, like sometimes it's silence, as you said, solitude, all those things. And and a big part of soul care, I think rhythms of receiving is trying to figure out how you are wired to receive, what's helpful to you, what nourishes your soul, and then just building rhythms of those things into your life.
SPEAKER_00:Um I fell in love with Jesus watching a sunset.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so clearly, like, that's something that he hardwired into your heart.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And for me, soul care is like, okay, I want to pay attention to that. Like a rhythm of receiving for you is like, okay, I'm gonna. I I talk sometimes about having a soul care plan and what are the things that you are going to do or not do that either nourish your soul or drain your soul. And so, like, if we were to make a soul care plan, like for you, one of those things might be, you know, I need to get outside and watch the sunset two times a week.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and um Kurt Thompson, you love, I think you love this thing that Kurt Thompson says, and I also do it, which is to put yourself in the path of beauty. Yeah. Um beauty heals. Beauty heals. And sunsets are without a doubt, one of them for me. Of um, I've also taught my kids to enjoy sunset so that they are aware of um beauty when it's around. And um, I was this is totally unrelated, but I have a massive love affair with Jackson, Wyoming, and the Teton Mountains. And um, I was thinking earlier this week of how many people in my circle of friends that have now gone to Jackson, Wyoming, because I am so passionate about like, no, you can feel the Lord's presence here. Like, there's a reason I love this place. It's because this is like you get to see with your eyes the verse in the Bible that the heavens and the earth declare the glory of God. And in Jackson, Wyoming, you see that with your eyes. And um, so even big things where it's like, yes, watch the sunset, but also I know that I have to put myself in places of extreme natural beauty because I meet the Lord there. Um, weeks ago, you were asking me, like, what does your soul need right now? And I was like, I need to go kayaking. And you were like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna text you and I'm gonna make sure that you went kayaking. Like, I want to play, I want you to put this on your calendar. Yeah. That's soul care. Soul care. Yeah. And so um, as we're talking about this, like that's the beauty of soul care, is it's not like another thing to add onto your list. And that is even when you're talking about like adding or taking away, it's not this like pressure to soul care. It's going, how did God create me? How did he create me to engage with him? And how can I make time and space in my life for that? Am I correct in saying that? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And even that, so I'm I'm I want to be sensitive to who's listening to this podcast and like the idea that soul care might be selfish, right? Somebody feels guilty for taking time for themselves or uh, you know, but the the reality is it's like it's essential. And and if I can carve out just a tiny bit of time for myself and receive, I'm going to have more to give. And so this thing that feels selfish, like it's not selfish at all. So not only does it have not have to be another thing on your to-do list, and we can talk more about that, but it's not selfish. And I think that's a barrier a lot of people think is like, oh man, uh maybe I don't have time for this, but wow, this is selfish. There's so many needs around and most of the people I talk to in these conversations are working in nonprofits, big missions, they care, they're they're fighting for the least of these. There's this strong energy to do that. And it's like, okay, you can do that and go this far on your own strengths, or you you could multiply that 10x with God's strength if you are really caring for your soul well. Like, what might God do through you if you were healthy and receiving?
SPEAKER_00:And so I'm sure I've gotten off topic of No, I don't think that you have, because you know, one of the things at Haven that we talk about all the time is um we have to care for the caregivers. And as a caregiver, we have to also care for ourselves. And and the thing about soul care is nobody else is gonna do it for you. This is not uh um, it's not a group project, yeah. Right. Like, and you can't do it for your spouse, your spouse can't do it for you, your kids certainly are not gonna do it for you. It is a very private, heartfelt experience of um, and I think I think it's like what you'd said at the beginning, like this isn't working. And on the outside, it should work. I'm doing, I'm checking the right boxes, I'm doing the right things. I'm um, you know, I love Jesus, I'm praying, I'm reading my Bible, but I'm I'm being crushed. My cup is empty, but my cup is empty and I'm being crushed under this weight. Um and I think so I honestly think engaging in soul care because I've experienced it because of your like leadership here in this in this area, um really does uh um uh uh it creates margin, is what it does. And um the first time that we engaged, you and I engaged, is because you were leading this cohort through KFO and you're like, hey, I'm doing this thing. Um, would you consider being a part of it? There's gonna be like 10 people. Um you just have to show up every other week. Did we do it every other week for like 10 weeks or something? No, 90 minutes each time. 90 minutes, a lot of time to commit. And my experience of it, and I just met somebody in real life at a at a foster conference a couple weeks ago that was in that. She goes, I know your face. And then we realized we had known each other from a computer screen during this cohort. Um, and she confirmed how I showed up to this, which is I really hate this, I think this is stupid, and I don't like whatever. I don't like what you're asking me to do. Um, which is generally how I responded after all of these um different practices that you would expose us to, because it requires vulnerability. There's a level of honesty that is um required in both the act of doing the different forms of soul care and the conversations that happen with God, because when you stop pouring, pouring, pouring, pouring, and you stop and you rest, it does actually open up a conversation that you may or may not want to have. Um so can you talk about that aspect? And then and then I would like to touch on um a couple of the different practices, like if you could just name some so that if something pops up for a listener, if they go, Oh my gosh, what is this prayer type? Then they can go and Google it. So for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um so to your your point, it does require something of us, like it requires creating a little bit of space. And in and what we're doing with SoulCare is we're creating space to receive God's love and his presence, which are always there and that we are not aware of. And when you create the space to receive God's love and his presence, it is so pure, so holy, so good that in the most loving way in relationship, you will be wounded at times. In my experience, like Jesus will point anyone who who you talk soul care with and like has never been convicted by Jesus of something in a moment of intimacy is probably not doing it right. I don't or slash might be a narcissist. Might be a narcissist, but that's it's like maybe we that's self-care, not soul care, because soul care is about healing our souls, and our our souls are wounded all the time, and there's an onslaught of things that come at us every day bad news in the media, hard decisions, the weight of life, and and raising kids. And part of soul care is coming to Jesus with all of that and just saying, Hey, meet me here in this and help me to receive your presence and your love. And sometimes that looks like, well, Michael, I noticed this. Okay, fair enough. That's that is so true. Um so I think that's a thing. I think if we can talk some about the real practical aspects of soul care, I think what I would say to any parents listening to this is just like start small, start where you are. Um you have unpredictable schedules, you have you have these high stress situations that you're in. And so it's like, okay, what are some micro practices? You don't you don't need to go away for a 24-hour silent retreat.
SPEAKER_00:Not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, mine, it might, but could could you take 30 seconds of silence at the beginning of a day or before your kids get in the car after school and just take a breath, right? Um welcome what is to come. Um just like, okay, in the middle of a busy, crazy day, just I'm gonna close my eyes, I'm gonna take a breath, and I'm gonna say, Jesus, I need you. Um that is an act of soul care. Because we we have a God who, when we do that, responds. There's probably something neurologically going on for us just doing that. And that's good and helpful in breathing, the science of all that. There's the pause, the breath, all those things are really good for our central nervous system. And then also, this is the God who, when we do that, he responds in powerful ways. And so I I would start there.
SPEAKER_00:The the thing we can name that though, like um it's literally it's called breath prayer. Yeah, it's breath prayer. Like, literally, that's the name. That is as easy, like that is 100%. If somebody was gonna get into soul care practices, it would be like, okay, let's take a breath and turn your attention to the Lord. Um, we can add on to that, which is have a very small verse. One of my dear friends had a verse, the Lord is my shepherd. Breathe in great breath, correct. There is nothing I lack. Yeah, breathe out. Um, it's incredible. And you just stopping and re-centering your brain and your heart on the Lord, like just do that for weeks. If that is if that is entry point at Haven, we talk all the time about a one percent shift towards health. Breath prayer is a one percent shift towards health, stopping, breathing. The Lord is my shepherd, there is nothing I lack. I promise, like I would, I absolutely promise that you will see a difference in the weight that you're carrying on your shoulders in this.
SPEAKER_03:You're receiving God's love and presence in that moment, yes, and then you move on, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like um, and life happens, and then you come back to it. So maybe every time I stand at my kitchen sink, I'm gonna do this breath prayer. Like attaching it to an element of your day, I have found is very helpful. Now, years in, even in the middle of um very hard um life stuff, which happens, um I have more access to an anchor than I did in 2021 when we met. I have more access to okay, this hard thing is happening with a kid and whatever. Um but I'm not completely spinning. Now, my personality type does still like to spin, but there is there is that. So I think that's that is a really good one. I want to go back to touching on what I was talking about, like the vulnerability aspect. Part of soul care is acknowledging that we can't do this on our own strength.
SPEAKER_03:And yeah, this can't do this without you. Can't do this without you, and so um a huge part of soul care too is just noticing and naming that. Yeah, there's vulnerability in that to like notice. Oh man, I'm spinning out right now. I'm gonna name it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so then I think you would take it a step further and say, can you welcome it?
SPEAKER_03:I might I might do that. One might do that.
SPEAKER_00:Can you welcome anger? Can you welcome um as a way of not fighting against what what life is bringing us, but as a way of going, okay, Jesus, meet me here in this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So how many times has someone listening to this gotten angry at this child that that they have welcomed into their home and that they have decided to love and that they know is a hurt child. And like we're living in a relationship with them, and so we get angry at them. So, so normal. And the natural response is to beat yourself up. I shouldn't feel angry at this kid right now. I know their story. I shouldn't. And you know, you joke like you end up shooting all over yourself. Um the contrast in that moment is like just noticing it, naming it, and welcoming it. Like, oh goodness.
SPEAKER_02:I am so angry right now at this kid. Welcome the anger. Right?
SPEAKER_03:And and the welcoming prayer is is simply like welcome anger. Welcome annoyance. And there's there's something about that. The natural tendency is one of two things is one, we we go into like I shouldn't feel this way, and we stuff it down. Or two is we get carried away with it. I once threw a tortilla at my kids because I was angry, not at them, but I was angry and I was making tortillas and I'd burned like six in a row, and I was overwhelmed, and my central nervous system was overwhelmed, the kids were being loud, and I was trying to make the seventh tortilla and not burn it, but they kept asking me questions and I'd going back to the table where they were and trying to go back to the kitchen. And I remember picking up the tortilla and it was so hot and it burned my finger, and I was like, and threw it across the room. I didn't throw it at them. Um, I don't know that I could have said, like, welcome pain in my hands right now, or but there were several points along that process.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Where if I'd been tuned in to my soul and what was happening, I could have paused and said, you know, hey, I feel angry right now. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna welcome this anger as a teacher. What does it have to teach me about my own story? What might God want to teach me in the feelings I have right now in this moment? And that's that's really hard to do in the moment. When I teach welcoming prayer, we talk about sometimes it's just as simple as in the moment saying, welcome anger. And sometimes that's enough to interrupt our patterns, our default, stop us from throwing the tortilla in three minutes. Um and then later you come back to that anger as an on-ramp to prayer.
SPEAKER_02:Man, Jesus, I got really angry earlier. What is that? What do you have for me in that? Meet me there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, curiosity is definitely one of the tools that you use in self in soul care.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, you're you're curious about God, you're curious about yourself and what he's up to in your heart and in the heart of others. Yes, very much so.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but you just brought up prayer. So earlier you'd said like you had a limited view of prayer and you wanted to come back to it. So can you talk about how somebody might be experiencing a limited view of prayer or how you experienced a limited view of prayer and then what prayer now means to you?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so this would be a this is a you could try this with anyone and and hey, can we can we pray together right now? If I were to say that, and I'd say, all right, you you can go first, you would immediately probably start to speak.
SPEAKER_02:And we think of prayer as talking to God. We don't often think of prayer as like listening to God.
SPEAKER_03:And so, like once you start to have that reframe, and it makes sense, like if my wife and I will have been together married 23 years in in a few weeks, August 3rd, if I had only talked to her for the last 23 years and never listened to her, there wouldn't like there'd be no relationship. We might still be married, but no one could say that we had a relationship. And theologically we may talk to God a lot, but we also have to remember that he might have some things to say to us, and so silence and listening can be prayer. Uh movement can be prayer, nature can be a form of, and so when I when I say prayer, anything that draws you into union, communion, just togetherness with God, and we don't have to use big theological words, anything that draws your heart to God is my expanded view of prayer. Like it brings your heart and your attention, your mind, your spirit, your body to focus on God, it it can be prayer. And all of a sudden now, wow, prayer takes on a whole new some some days. I may talk to God. Some days I may journal.
SPEAKER_02:Some days I may just sit and be quiet.
SPEAKER_00:Um days you might use prayers that other people have written and you might borrow a prayer from somebody else. Borrow a prayer from somebody else.
SPEAKER_03:Scripture can be a prayer.
SPEAKER_00:Lectio divina?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Did I say that right?
SPEAKER_03:Flow scripture, just reading scripture slowly and just asking, not what does this mean or how do I apply this necessarily like, what do you have for me in this today, Jesus?
SPEAKER_00:I right now am using um I have a playlist that I'm kind of is on repeat around me. And it's it's really I'm using it as uh a form of prayer right now, which is I don't know if I can say these words. So I'm gonna let somebody else say them for me, and I'm just gonna be here in the room. And that is um, I think that's all part of what you're describing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, Brother Lawrence, right? Yeah. Peeling potatoes as as a moment of of prayer, and just visualizing as you as you peel each piece. He's a monk in a monastery, didn't write a book, but the book is is attributed to him from several letters he wrote called practicing the presence. And and the idea was that like there were dedicated times of act, like formal prayer in monastery life. And for Brother Lawrence, those were sort of secondary. It was like actually just going and living life and thinking about I'm living life with Jesus right now. That's prayer. Like we're peeling this potato together. Um, it goes back to like Matthew 11, 28 and 30. Like I love the message translation of that, where Jesus says, like, walk with me, work with me, watch how I do it, and learn the unforced rhythms of grace. And at the end, he says, if we'll do those things, we will learn to live freely and lightly. And so it's like, okay, what are the small moments in my day, the ordinary things that can become prayer or on-ramps to prayer? And when that is your perspective, the answer is everything.
SPEAKER_00:Um, unforced rhythms. I'm writing this down on my little notepad in front of me. Unforced rhythms of grace and living freely and lightly. This is the like my yoke is easy and my burden is light first.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. I I've just pulled it up. I'd love to read it. It's it's are you tired, worn out, burned out on religion? This is this is Jesus talking to other people. And he says, Come to me, get away with me, and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won't lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you.
SPEAKER_02:Keep company with me, and you'll learn to live freely and lightly.
SPEAKER_03:There's a lot there, very rich. Uh that's what it's about, though, with Jesus. That's very different than a lot of us tend to think it's about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I think if you were to pull up that vision of a flourishing soul, um that's it. Yeah. That's it. That's it. And so often in this, in this world of foster care and adoption, the burdens and the heaviness and the weight of it just rest so squarely, or we assume them. Let's I'm gonna use actually that that verbiage is like we assume all of these burdens and we pick them up and we carry them, and we kind of place them um on our own backs. And um what I'm hearing you say, and what what the Bible is saying is like, hey, this is not it was never meant to be carried entirely on your back. Like um, for me, it rests like literally squarely in the back of my neck. Like I had a moment in therapy last week where I could feel it of all of the burdens. And um it was interesting in in therapy that session. Um, we were talking about what it means to do our best and what do I expect of people around me if I'm doing my best. And my brain sees in pictures, and um so I had this picture of like climbing a mountain, and I was like working to get to the top of the we were very close to the summit, and we were like digging in for that last little push up the mountain, you know? And I look over to my right, and like somebody is just sitting, like drinking from their Nalgine. And I'm like, Well, what are you doing? Right. Like, and I had this whole um I had this whole moment like looking over at this person. Um and then as kind of the picture unfolded for me was this realization of, oh, I don't think I've been doing my best, and which was very shocking. It was shocking to me, it was shocking to my therapist, it was shocking. Like, we were just we're sitting there like, you're trying so hard. Um, and I was like, Yeah, I think that I am actually doing, I'm trying too hard. Yes, I think that I'm striving. I I think that there's a whole lot of striving energy here, and I think I'm being invited to let go. And um I was not at the time. I mean, this has come up in other therapy sessions, but I was not at the time in any way, shape, or form thinking about like, oh, I just recorded a podcast two weeks ago about trying too hard and like maybe I needed to try softer. That a month ago you'd been like, Hey, have you ever read this book, Trying Softer? Like, like I was not putting like any body clover.
SPEAKER_03:Great book.
SPEAKER_00:I wasn't putting any of those pieces together in the moment. I was just kind of there going, I think I'm being invited into a different way of experiencing the situation in my life.
SPEAKER_03:Um that's soul care is like how you experience this, it's almost a frame, it's a frame of mind, right? It's a worldview as much as it is things you do, because if your mindset and your worldview says that everything is an opportunity for prayer, art things, good things, normal, dumb things, all of a sudden soul care becomes less about like this is a thing I have to add to my list, versus like this is just the thing I need to pay attention to and notice.
SPEAKER_00:Um get questions, ask questions.
SPEAKER_03:Ask questions, as you would if you you were constantly with a friend, right? Like that's that's what Jesus is. Jesus is our friend, he's with us always. Yeah, and he's experiencing these things alongside us, and is there to help us make sense of those things. And and I'm thinking, like as I was talking, like this sound like big things. I've gone out to mow my yard before and been like, hey, Jesus, can we hang out while while I mow? You know, they're like curious about what's on your mind today. And I I've mowed my grass with Jesus, and and that that can be soul care.
SPEAKER_00:It can be.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, our soul, this is a there's a lot of people who have said this, but our soul was designed to live in union with God. And so much of life pulls that apart.
SPEAKER_02:Soul cares about what can we do to try to put that back together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And sometimes it's the weights we carry in the in the realm of foster care, for instance.
SPEAKER_03:Like, man, I've got I've carry around the weight of the pain that this kid has experienced. And some degree of that is okay, and then but it's also remembering like Jesus had to cast all our cares and our worries on him. And so say, like, you know what, Jesus, I give you I give you her pain. I I give you responsibility for the healing that I know that she needs one day.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so let's put verbature on this. This is benevolent detachment. Benevolent detachment, yes. Um and that holy release, uh, yeah. Yeah. Uh and it's just, you know, Father, I give everybody and everything to you.
SPEAKER_03:Give everyone and everything to you. And the thing about that particular practice, benevolent detachment, you've got a you have you have a mind and a spirit and a body and a soul. And we're not gonna get into the the thing, all the different dimensions of a of a person, but your mind likes to carry those things. Your mind likes to analyze them and spin on them and think about and like truly the mind wants something to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Our minds don't like boredom. Um, and so without something to interrupt that, we would just be thrilled to carry that around. And it's not good for us. And in benevolent detachment, the only way your mind will let you let it go is just that you understand you'll probably pick it back up later. Let's say um there's a certain thing in my family right now that we're sort of concerned about, and I need to release that to Jesus. I mean, Jesus, I give you this situation. My mind won't let me do it. And so some just on my own. So sometimes it's like just, you know what, I can pick this back up later, but for now I'm gonna let Jesus carry it. I don't need to carry it right now. I'm gonna give myself permission if I need to pick it, and you will, you'll pick it back up. Um, I will practice benevolent detachment 10 times a day for the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:And with no shame of yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? No, like, oh, I put this down. I can't believe I picked this back up. No, no, no, no. I just do it again.
SPEAKER_03:Jesus is so kind and gracious to us.
SPEAKER_00:He's like, What did you say back? What did you say one time where you were like, it's a thousand opportunities to return?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, and so another practice is uh centering prayer. The idea of centering prayer is that it can be an immensely frustrating practice, is you just try to sit silent before Jesus. It's not even like, what do you have to say to me? It's like, can we just sit on the couch together and not talk? And and in centering prayer, when thoughts and ideas come to your head, you have like a sacred word that you say. There's nothing sacred about the word, but like for me, it's usually the word rest. So I start thinking about okay, there's that basketball game tomorrow that I gotta take my kid to. Okay, no big deal, rest, come back. I'm just sitting here with Jesus right now. We're just we're just spending time together. And there's a great story of a nun in a monastery trying to learn, centering prayer. And when it's they've done it for an hour or something like that, and when it's over, she says to the facilitator, like, Oh man, I'm so sorry. My mind must have wandered a thousand times during that hour. I'm I'm no good at this practice. And he said, Oh, how delightful! That's a thousand opportunities to return to God. And it's like these micro, you think about the prodigal son and that return, our hearts go astray a million times a day, and so we have these tiny micro opportunities just to come back to God throughout the day.
SPEAKER_00:I love the I love the reframe of it though. And I think that that's one of the things that you've taught me to do over the years is can we take away the stigma? Can we take away the stigma? Can we take away the shame? And can we just say, Oh, how delightful. So many opportunities that you get to come back to God, to lay it down again, to do this again, like um to show up and be faithful again, to show up, like to remind yourself, hey, this is not your job is to be faithful, God's job is the rest, like those kind of things of just and the more that you do it, the more that you do it, right? So the more that you return, the more you return. The more you lay down, the more you lay down. Um, and it sounds um elementary.
SPEAKER_03:Um it is. Doesn't just sound, it is quite elementary. It's not easy, but it's very simple.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Um, on that note, as we're wrapping up, before we go into lightning round questions, do you have any books that you um would suggest to our listeners if they have time and space to read a book?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, uh I just sent you one the other day, Walking with God by John Eldritch is a great one. Um, practicing the presence by it's gonna be it's gonna say it's by Brother Lawrence.
SPEAKER_00:And then I think practicing the pres practicing the presence. I'm gonna sorry to interrupt, but I think it's foundational to this. Like as a Christian, you should probably read practicing the presence. Like that is just an incredible book.
SPEAKER_03:You you should, and and you should know.
SPEAKER_00:Then we're putting shuds on people's plates, right?
SPEAKER_03:You should know. You should you should know how brother Lawrence lived his life. Yeah, because we need role models and we need a vision. That's great. That's what I would like. What I like about walking with God. Eldritch has actually better books on soul care, but walking for God gives you a vision for a life in communion, union with God, and ultimately like get the practices aside, they're just designed to help us have union with God. The other one that I would strongly recommend, I had to Google it real quickly, was the Liturgy of the Ordinary. There's a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the Yeah, it's got a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the front of it by Tish Harrison Warren, and just a beautiful picture of uh a life of soul care, not by doing extraordinary or extra things, but just receiving God's presence and love in the midst of the ordinary. It's a beautiful book.
SPEAKER_00:It's really good. Uh there's another one. I have purchased this book two different times. Um, when I got it after you recommended it to me, I was like, this cover looks really familiar. And I walked into my library at home and I have it in my library. It's like Sacred Rhythms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good book. Okay, ready for lightning round? At the end of every episode, we do a lightning round. So answer as quick as you can, no pressure. There's no right or wrong answers. Yeah. Okay. What's on your nightstand?
SPEAKER_03:Oh my goodness, my phone charger and several books that I'll never read.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Um, books or podcasts that you are loving right now. And do podcasts because we just did books. Unless you have like a different category of book setting.
SPEAKER_03:I love The Next Right Thing by Emily P. Freeman. I like the Wild at Heart podcast by uh Ransom Heart Ministries. Those are two that are fabulous. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I like this. Um, and then what is bringing you joy?
SPEAKER_03:What is bringing me joy? Uh the birds and bunnies in my backyard. It's summertime while we're recording this. Uh and we've over the years put a lot of bird feeders out in our backyard. And there's now lots of birds, and then there's also we planted clover, which the bunnies love. So, like, I can go out there in the morning. Listen, and we live in the suburbs of Oklahoma City. There's nothing we don't.
SPEAKER_00:Is Annalise also doing this with you? Are you saying we to make it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not the royal we or anything, like just the two of us. Um, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Annalise also likes this because I know that you do. I was like, are you like pushing some of this off? Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_03:There was a baby bunny the other day, like in the front yard that we saw. And so there's just that is giving me a lot of joy right now is the the panoply of birds and watching the bunnies like out there eating the clover in the morning on the grass.
SPEAKER_00:And do you have one of the bird feeders that is the camera?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Of course. Yeah. Okay. Yes, that's fantastic, guys. Michael is my friend that when I was in Michigan a couple weeks ago, there was like um my friend's mother-in-law has this beautiful bird sanctuary thing in her front yard. And I filmed it for 30 seconds and sent it to Michael B because I knew how much he would also enjoy that um existing in the world. Um, are you growing sunflowers this year? Pumpkins. Pumpkins.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so we we toss our old pumpkins in November into the garden. And then they just miraculously like spring forth like weeds the next spring. And so I've got three or four ripening orange, beautiful pumpkins growing in my garden right now. No work required, just let God do his thing.
SPEAKER_00:Being pumpkins. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay, well, um, thank you. Thanks for being my friend, and thanks for coming on the podcast. Absolutely.