Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption

Warmth And Discipline: Raising Resilient Kids In Foster And Adoptive Homes

• Rebecca Harvin • Season 3 • Episode 4

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In part one of two, we explore kind, authoritative parenting for foster and adoptive families, weaving research, faith, and real-life practice into a clear path that balances warmth with firm guidance. Rachel Medefind shares how discipline means training for growth, not punishment, and why community and mindset shape outcomes.

• what authoritative parenting is and is not
• warmth plus discipline as twin levers for growth
• the four parenting styles and long-term outcomes
• why “discipline” equals training, not punishment
• TBRI as a helpful tool within kind authority
• research from Baumrind and Christian Smith
• faith, formation, and limited purpose of authority
• community as a stabilizer for stressed parents
• mindset shifts toward growth and releasing outcomes
• consistency with flexibility in daily practices

Come back next week for part two.


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SPEAKER_00:

Hey guys, real quick before we jump into this conversation, we realized that while we were editing, that this conversation would do better in two parts. We didn't want to cut out any of the goodness that Rachel has to offer. So today you're gonna get part one. Come back next week for part two. Here's the conversation. Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us today on Behind the Curtain. I'm your host, Rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. My guest on the show today is none other than the incredible Rachel Metafend. She is the director of the Institute for Family Centered Healing and Health at the Christian Alliance for Orphans, otherwise known as CAFO. She has a background in physical therapy and holds a master's in psychology and neuroscience of mental health from King's College London, specializing in early adversity. Rachel has served on multiple boards supporting vulnerable children and helped found Tyndale Christian School in Arlington, Virginia. She advises families facing complex parenting challenges and has invested deeply in education and youth formation. Her recent book, When There is Crisis, a handbook for Christian Foster and Adoptive Families Facing Serious Struggle, offers biblically grounded principles and research-based practical guidance to support families walking through seasons of crisis. Rachel and her husband Jed have welcomed children through birth, adoption, and foster care. And today she is on the podcast to talk about kind, authoritative parenting and why that is good for kids. So without further ado, here is my friend Rachel. Rachel, thank you so much for being here. I am so, so, so excited to have you on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you, Rebecca. It is really a privilege to be with you and to be friends with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it's one of the joys of my time at CAFO is getting to know you a little bit better and um getting to experience the peace that you bring into the room when you walk into a room. It's really um quite something to experience. So um can we start with over time in every field really? Uh theories change, opinions shift over time. And so can you kind of paint a description for us of what it was like at the beginning when you first joined the foster care community? Um, what parenting looked like for you then versus how it's changed over time and how it looks now? Big question to start with, but can you go? Can you go with that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, absolutely. I think it's nice to start with a question like that because it takes us to a personal level. And I think like most, um, we go into parenting um thinking we have certain um skills to offer, certain, certain things to bring, and yet um, you know, with a lot of trepidation, which is exactly how I felt. Um and I I would say that some of the um best gifts I got in learning to parent actually uh well came from both sides of my family, my parents and my um the way my my parents brought me up. I grew up on the mission field, and um my parents really sought to raise me with a faith in Jesus and a love for God and uh directive to to serve and to bring good to others and to organize our lives around that. And I'm so thankful for that. Um, my my my husband's parents, um Maidon and Colleen, were um very instrumental in just teaching me, especially my mother-in-law, Colleen, and in just showing me um through her mothering and grandmothering and also through her mentorship of me, um, just wonderful, um warm and firm and confident parenting. And um, it was really the embodiment of that that was very helpful to me as I was a young parent and feeling insecure in a lot of ways. Um and um then, you know, speaking into the larger field of foster care and adoption, um I think um we early on, many of us know about Karen Purvis and the good work that she brought in through uh uh the TBRI and um the way that she really helped also embody an authoritative, which we'll talk about that in a moment and what it is, but an a firm and uh a kind and a loving way of bringing good to a child that was critical for their um process of of healing to come about in their lives.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. So you knew Karen Purvis at the beginning of foster care then.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Like you had access to her. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we we knew her in the early days of CAFO. She was a friend to the community and brought much good personally. And her faith really Oh, you like knew her, knew her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I meant like you read her book.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I did that too. Yeah, and saw many of her dynamic videos, um, but that also knew her personally.

SPEAKER_00:

That is incredible. That's so I started hearing about TBRI, I think maybe six months before she passed away. So by the time that my friend went to go become a practitioner, Karen had already passed away. And so it was very um interesting time, I think, for the Karen Purpose Institute and all and all of that stuff. But that's incredible to have somebody like Karen in your corner teaching you and talking to you and mentoring, like a little bit of mentoring is that's an incredible start.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, she was a she was a wonderful woman. And um, yeah, it did it was helpful to my own parenting. I would definitely say uh just uh um building a confidence that we can um bring direct good to our children through guiding them with really a strong presence of love and a strong presence of firmness that that guides them to what is um truly good and truly most beneficial for their flourishing?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's amazing. Um would you say that like right now? I mean, I know we're gonna talk about kind authoritative parenting, which I have called kind authoritarian parenting more times than not, and we can talk about the difference. It's confusing. It's confusing. Um, would you say that TBRI is still part of that? Is it a piece of the pie for you? Would you say that you're that that's the area that you mostly are in? Do you piece it out like that at all?

SPEAKER_02:

I think that trust-based relational intervention um that that Karen Pervis so widely wisely developed sits under an umbrella of maybe this would be and maybe a good time to just bring in the concept of authoritative parenting. It sits um when it it's when it's um applied as it was originally envisioned, um it sits under an umbrella of of well-established research um that um shows that there are two sort of primary ingredients that really contribute to um the shorter and long-term flourishing of humans over time. And um there'd be different ways to describe it, but I'm just gonna use the term warmth and discipline. Um so authoritative parenting is really another way to say it is kind authority. It's kindness um combined with authority. And what it looks like is high levels of warmth, um, high levels of affection and offering respect, um, responsiveness. Sometimes the term sensitivity is used. Uh, so it's this sort of atmosphere that is um pleasant and warm. Um and and I think it's best to say up front, in in all of this, none of it requires any kind of um caliber of perfection in order for the benefits to be experienced. So so in saying and describing any of this, you could say um, you could say that even uh moderate levels of these qualities bring about a lot of good. But but but high levels of warmth is is one of the key ingredients. And then the other key ingredient is is is is discipline or was what can be called authority. But I like the word discipline because um discipline is kind of a lost term, actually. People don't really use that term anymore, but it's um it's really a guidance toward growth. It's a guidance toward um learning and becoming something um that you are not yet, but that fulfills a kind of good in a person's life. Um and so high levels of discipline um are really good for a person. And it's when those two are combined, high levels of warmth and high levels of discipline, that you see the most gains um for um children and as they grow into young adults over time. And actually, do you want me to just tell a little bit of how this was um kind of evolved through research? Because it's just kind of very interesting to um to see.

SPEAKER_00:

I want to clarify something really quick before we move on into that. When you were saying discipline, I think it would be very easy for people to think spanking, grounding, punishment. Yes. And yes, I think I know you well enough to think that you probably have a different idea of discipline when you're saying it. And so you can confirm and then we can pin that and and talk about that when we start talking about like principles of this, and we can talk about research, or we can just kind of clear it up.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Part of the reason I like the term is because I do think it's important actually to revive it as a concept. Um, discipline is not merely punishment. Um, and this is what you'll be hearing from me as I as I share. Um, it's a training. It's really a training in the knowledge and the skills that are key to a good life, um, especially self-control, um, learning to pursue goals that are good, good for oneself, good for others. Um, for instance, um, I think the original meaning of the term discipline, it's a disciple, right? Yeah, well, that's where we get the word disciple. That's right. And um, it it depicts sort of this process of guiding toward those principles and those practices that are in accord with what's true and what's good and what ultimately is good for us as humans. Um, so it has to do with learning, it has to do with growth, um, it has to do with formation. And um, so I think, I think um the don't get stuck on the term though. Um whether you call it authority, right? Bearing um a position as a parent and an approach as a parent that um puts in place what is necessary for um a process of um of of not stagnancy. Maybe it's better put in the negative, right? Of not stagnancy, but um but blossoming and growing into that which uh as Christians we could say God intends.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So high levels, that's a good clarification, Rebecca, but high levels of warmth, high levels of discipline, and also importantly, to contrast that, um, there there really are um two other key types of parenting, although um there's uh yet another that is um is kind of rarer, but but the worst, and and actually it's not unfamiliar in the context of foster care and adoption, which is neglectful parenting. So if so neglectful parenting is actually just an neither offering warmth nor authority. It's a lack of involvement, it lacks warmth, lacks discipline, lacks um really um any kind of um relational activity in a child's life. And when you have neglectful parenting, you really have the worst outcomes overall. The other two types of parenting are permissive parenting, which you get you get some levels of warmth, but um often with no boundaries or with insufficient boundaries, with insufficient discipline to guide a young person toward um toward health and toward um thriving. Uh, and then there's authoritarian, which sounds a lot like authoritative, but it's actually um it's actually a different kind, a different style of parenting. And that involves often very high levels of of discipline and being in charge, being in control, but lacking warmth and relationship. And in that case, too, um, and I can get into the details of that, but in that case too, you tend to have worse outcomes.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, I mean, that's a drill sergeant, right? So that's right. I would imagine that that outcome leads towards a lot of rebellion, either in your home as a kid or in their early 20s and then through life. I would imagine that that um comes with a lot of rebellion. And I have a friend when it comes to permissive parenting, I had a friend one time tell me that the reason she loves country music is because it was the only form of rebellion she could do in her house because everything was permitted. And so, but her mom hated country music. And so she loved, she would like sneak country music because it was the one rule that she could break as a kid, anyhow, wild. I was like, that is um that's the craziest reason I've ever heard anybody like country music for. But it's this idea of anything's allowed, there's no structure, and so it leaves this open, like, I don't know where my boundaries are. I don't know, and that doesn't that doesn't feel safe for a kid. That doesn't feel safe for a teenager to not know where the boundaries are. It doesn't feel safe for us as adults, right? Like the where you don't know where you are in the world because you don't know where your boundaries are, and you don't, and you know kind of intuitively that you have parents who are supposed to be putting boundaries around you and then they're not, and it doesn't, it's very um disconcerting for a kid. So, okay, with that, let's talk about research. Tell me uh tell me about the research that led to this kind of definition of parenting that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah. So the primary original researcher um was a psychologist named Diana Baumrand uh from UC Berkeley. And she did a lot of research, foundational research in the 60s and 70s. And it started with um just the question of like, why do preschoolers behave differently? That you can almost like divide them into distinct behavioral groups and cluster them. And so that was kind of the question she originally had. And so she said about trying to understand um why there were different behaviors. So she she she grouped uh these children into three kind of behavior types. One was one group was discontented and withdrawn and distrustful. Um, so they just were pretty unhappy. Uh, another group was um kind of displayed poor self-control, aggressiveness, lack of self-reliance. So just sort of this inability to use one's body for one's own purposes, right? As as one really might intend deep down. Um, and then a third group that was confident, tended to be confident, self-reliant, um, friendly, buoyant, um, and um just clearly doing much better. And um, she decided to observe the parents and find out like what did they do in their parenting that that seemed to maybe connect and was would be associated with these behaviors. And the two core measurements were warmth and authority or discipline, as we were talking about. And um what they really found is that the group that was expressing this discontentment and withdrawal was, well, Rebecca, what do you what would you say? What would you imagine what group that would be from the from the three or four? I guess let's go with the three without the neglectful. Um, which one would it be?

SPEAKER_00:

The withdrawal?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, would it be permissive, authoritarian, where it's just that harsh.

SPEAKER_00:

I would think it would be authoritarian.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, you're right. The discontented and withdrawn and distrustful. Um tended to have more of the authoritarian parents with high control, harsh, harsh, but not having the warmth. So maybe good good structure, um, but but done in a cold way. Um and what about the poor self-control group?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, permissive.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, anything goes. So like it doesn't, yeah, I can climb on top of this table, nothing's gonna stop me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So then like later, um, more research was done in this field to look at like longer-term outcomes. And um like more than a thousand studies have been done um just looking at how how young people do um across time and how that associates with how they were parented. Um, the kind of neglectful parenting, where you get neither the warmth nor the um authority or discipline, um, have the worst outcomes overall. Um, the authoritarian or harsh parenting, um, you you you tend to see a carrying through of just higher levels of depression, higher levels of withdrawal, um, poor academic outcomes. And then with permissive parenting, um, you tend to have sustained poor self-control, also more depression, um, more aggressive behavior. Uh, and then with the authoritarian, authoritative parenting, um, just a lot more confidence and resilience, um, better relationships. And interestingly, you get this better transmission of values. Uh, and another gentleman named Christian Smith, who uh does research out of Notre Dame, a lot of great research there, he uh has really demonstrated how the transmission of the Christian faith uh has the most, you could say, stickiness when you have authoritative approaches to parenting and authoritative experiences in community. Uh, because um, well, we can talk about the because in a little bit, but but you with authoritative parenting, you you really have the best longer term outcome. With transmitting the things that matter most to you. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, it's kind of this like um it's a parent position, but it's also a coach. Right? Like it's it's like I'm coming alongside. I'm leading, but I'm also coming alongside to me. That's when I think about like when I'm at my best as a mom, that's it. It's it is letting natural consequences do their job, which is to teach lessons that my kids get to learn. Because life is a wonderful teacher of natural consequences, and come not leaving them alone in the middle of their the mess. And saying, like, hey, do you want some guide? Like, do you want some guidance here? And and not just, but creating an environment where the guidance is actually helpful, right? And it's very um, it moves them forward. I it's very much in my head when we're talking about kind authoritative parenting, it falls into that leader, coach, um, developer of personhood, right? I think about the verse that like to train up a child in the way that he should go, and when they're old, they will not depart from it. And that was definitely said a certain way in my house growing up. Um and I'm like, what if we put the emphasis on the he? Like train up a child in the way that he should go, and then when he's old, he won't depart. What if what if my job as a parent is actually like to uncover who is it, Michelangelo that said like David was in there? I just had to let him out with his with the statue where he talks about. I could be way off base here, Rachel, but it's it is how I think about it. When I think about my oldest daughter, I think about like she is who God made her. And my job is to come alongside and develop her into that person before she goes off into the world. It's not to um, it's not to create a miniature version of myself or to live through her in a way that I didn't get to do or whatever, right? But it's also to imbue her with the DNA of our family, right? Like you were born into this family. And as a Harvin, I literally was just saying this to my kids this morning. You are a Harvin, and Harvins act this way. You are like that, that kind of like I want to encourage you in who you are. Now, I was also saying a lot of other things, so my kids might not have heard that this morning, but but but that whole idea, that whole idea. I I say things like this often. You're a Harvin, Harvins are kind. You're a Harvin, Harvins are generous, you're a Harvin, Harvins are like that kind of um, you know, we were talking about before we started recording about like an essay that my son is writing about being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven first and being able to pass that value down to him, that no matter what happens here, our hope is in heaven. Um, and he's writing an essay like that, not because I insisted that that's what it is, but just because we have an atmosphere where he's like, hey, I think I think that this is a value. And I don't know if that fully answered that that question, but I absolutely think that kind authoritative parenting allows space because there's not so much resistance from the child.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, right. Rebecca, I think that's so good. And I think I think at the heart of what you're touching on is um the ways that authority can go wrong. And it's really important to acknowledge that. Um it it authority can and is misused. Um, but let's pull it back to an understanding of how we understand authority in light of God, um, and especially as parents. And and and what I would say here is that uh God authorizes us as parents to have authority, but it is an authority that is specifically prescribed to bring good. That is why we have authority. We we um you could say we only have authority to do that, and um that good that we are to bring our children is limited. In other words, not all good that is to come to them will come through us. Um and much of the good that they must experience will come through struggle. They will need to experience um hardship, adversity, failing. Um, they will need to take risks and learn things in difficult ways, much in the same way that we did, right? That is actually all within the scope of seeking to bring good within the realm of the authority that we've been given as parents. But um, I I think to me personally, that is that is the nugget, is that um kind authority is simply an expression of um the full the full love of God that we get to um extend that we receive from God and we get to extend out from ourselves um to others and particularly to our children. Um and the reason that it has the dimensions of warmth and the dimension of of discipline is because both are the most powerful instruments for bringing good to a young person. In other words, um to support the the full um health, healing um, and flourishing of an individual, uh, we're not only committed to their immediate um emotion or their immediate um feelings of well-being, we're committed to their long-term good and development and ultimately as Christians, movement toward Christ, right? Their heart and themselves um longing for and then going toward Christ in such a way that it begins to shape and inform what they do and how they do it, um, and what they're committed to. And that's the purpose of our authority. Um, and so to me, I just feel like the concept of authoritative or kind authority in parenting is um such a reflection of the bib, not only the biblical instructions to parents um to par and how to parent and why, uh, but also such a beautiful reflection of how God um parents us. And actually, I think sometimes when when we struggle with what feels like dissonances within scripture, where you encounter a God that in one moment is just um so um you see such expressions of loving kindness and mercy and tenderness. And and in the next moment, you see um such um harsh seeming um responses, in other words, with such firmness and with such um uh uh you know a sharp line provided to his people, the Israelites, or whatever it may be, um that God's authoritative love for us, um all of that, all of that sort of behavior of God fits within that. Because if we understand that what God wants so much for us is for us um to become whole and to become more fully his and um to become like his son Jesus Christ, um then it um it requires such tenderness and mercy and also such firmness and consistency and willingness to allow us um to experience hardship in order that we might be, you know, refined and become um more fully his. And, you know, I think that's reflected in the scripture when we when we read that actually that's an expression of us being, that's that's how we know that we are his sons and daughters, right? We we we um experience discipline, he disciplines those he loves, and we actually come to understand that we have an identity as a son, as a daughter, not primarily because we experience um um just good feelings with God, but actually directly because we experience his commitment to discipline us and persist with us and train us and guide us when uh we need it. So it's a little long-winded, but I feel like it's so important to have a good picture of um how it all fits together and why it comes together. And we we I I want I want parents to feel deeply comfortable uh with the juxtaposition of these two things and the value of having high levels of both.

SPEAKER_00:

Can you tell us then what does this look like? How does this play out in a family? How does a mother come to the table like this? How does a father come to the table with this um version of parenting, especially if it looks quite different than what is currently happening in their home? Um but what is this, how does this play out?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. You know, I think the thing I would actually start with isn't directly within the home. It's that we need to be part of an authoritative community. And the reason I say that is I I just don't think we um can do these sorts of things well on our own. Um, and especially in in the day and age we live in, um, there are just so many confusing messages about parenting. Um, and it's actually just so difficult to parent, generally speaking, uh, in the times we live in. Um, I think it's just very complex, whether you're talking about um, you know, just um technology or um just uh just values that uh are that that are go against um the values of our faith, ways of life that don't bring health and goodness to a person. Um, and just so many things that make it very difficult to um parent and parent well, but also not even at that level, often just the structures of our day that make parenting so stressful and overwhelming. Um, being part of an authoritative community, um, which really um involves being embedded within a local church, an imperfect but um um a community of believers that's seeking to grow. Um, that and what what that means, how it how it is authoritative, is that we offer love one to another, uh, we care for one another, and we also um have the desire to grow together. Um, and we we urge one another on toward that end, and we um uh we expect it of one another, and um we provide some accountability toward that. So I think that that's the first thing I would say, um, because it's just so it's so difficult to do it on our own. And the next thing I would say is that actually our our attitude um toward parenting, our assumptions about what can happen as we live together and um as we parent are going to really impact um the outcomes we get. Um there's actually some really interesting studies on this, um, which I won't go into, but I I I think having um an attitude that both um receives our children just as they are, um, meaning we we love them and and take them in in exactly the place that we find them, and um hope that and trust that others will do the same for us. And at the very same time, we anticipate uh growth, meaning we expect it. We don't believe that any one of us at any point are in a position of stagnancy or the kind of sort of stuckness um that means that who we are um as we are is exactly how we will be um, you know, a year from now or five years from now. Um and um I one of the interesting things about authoritative parenting is that actually it's associated with a growth-oriented approach to parenting. Um and what that what I mean by that is it it assumes that um the the young ones that we have in our care are um people who have the capacity to mature and to grow in goodness and grow in bringing good to others. So I say that because I think the attitude that we bring to the table, as you were saying, really makes a big difference in how we not only go about parenting, but how we experience our children and then how they experience us. So I want to pause there because I think there's lots of practical things we can talk about, but I think the community we surround ourselves with and the attitude we approach parenting with are really two important things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think mindset, I've seen my mindset change over, gosh, the last seven years. I'm like, when did when did we get into this? 2017? What is that, eight years? Um, I've seen my mindset change so much over the years between um my level of expectation has gone up and has gone down and has been, you know, has this like I've definitely fallen into ruts of it's always gonna be like this, no matter what. Like this is always gonna be. Um, and then I go into different seasons where my mindset um changes to no growth is possible, change is possible. Can'ts can become cans. Like that it is. I've also gone into hyper drive, right? Of like, let's get all of the resources, let's put them in all of the therapies, let's focus, focus, focus on healing, healing, healing, and taking complete ownership of healing for my children, which is a whole other category of mental headspace that can really sink a ship. It can really sink a ship.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right.

SPEAKER_00:

But coming and where I am now is um this idea of releasing control of the outcome and knowing that every kid in my house has a different path and a different trajectory and pace and growth. And also there are behaviors that are in my house that were in my house four years ago that I'm like, how is this still happening? How is this where I look at them like I I consistency is one of my like keys to parenting, right? Like if I say something, I do the thing. It you can bank on it if I like there's not a there's no there's not an empty threat that happens in my parenting, which has its benefits and also and also though, you have to really know when to throw a flag and when to not like you know what I mean.

unknown:

Oops.

SPEAKER_00:

Because because in this, which is it is it is really it's probably one of the best things I do as a parent is how consistent I am. But it it can it can back me into a corner because I can get stuck in that, like I said it, I'm gonna have to do it. Like that kind of that kind of mentality that I'm I'm growing out of. Um but I look at my kids sometimes and I'm like, I know, I know how you're parented, I know the consistency that I parent. How is this behavior still here? Um and then also releasing that to maybe it is, maybe this is them and and maybe it's not, maybe this is they have a longer path to the other side of this whatever thing, you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. One of the things that I find very encouraging about um leaning into an approach that is both um, I just believe, so represented in scripture. Um, so when we do it, we are reflecting the nature of God. We're called to do it. So we can even do it out of obedience, but also is so evidence-based, is that we can sort of apply it. We can, we can act in the way that that um we know is supportive of good while at the same time um releasing outcomes, just like you were saying. In other words, we can um bring these inputs of good and be consistent in bringing them um and not worry at the same time. Um, and I'm of course that's so much easier said than done.