Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Each episode will feature a conversation between host Rebecca Harvin and foster/adoptive caregivers or members of the community who support foster care and adoption.
Behind the Curtain: Honest Conversations about Foster Care and Adoption
Parenting For The Long Game
In part two of two, we explore authoritative parenting as a blend of warmth and structure that forms character for the long game. Faith and research meet in practical steps that build trust, align kids with reality, and make the teen years a joy rather than a warning.
• greeting rituals that prioritize presence over logistics
• using fewer words to lower defensiveness and increase responsiveness
• humor as connection that supports timely correction
• creating buffer zones like car rides for debrief not discipline
• aligning kids with reality through natural consequences
• treating lying as a trust issue with repair and restored freedom
• trust as the currency that expands autonomy in teen years
• tailoring authority to readiness, not age, and coaching growth
• why authoritative parenting suits trauma, ADHD, and high-demand needs
• staying in community with schools while resisting over-rescue
• repairing quickly and parenting toward the future adult
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Hey, real quick, if you're just jumping into the podcast, this is part two of Rachel's conversation. If you missed part one, this would be a great time to go back and listen to it first. You will need some of that information to follow along in this one. If you did catch part one of Rachel's conversation last week, you'll notice that we backed up just a smidge so that we can catch you right back up into the conversation. Here we go with part two of my conversation with Rachel Metafind.
SPEAKER_02:One of the things that I find very encouraging about um leaning into an approach that is both um, I just believe, so represented in scripture. Um so when we do it, we are reflecting the nature of God. We're called to do it. So we can even do it out of obedience, but also is so evidence-based, is that we can sort of apply it. We can, we can act in the way that that um we know is supportive of good while at the same time um releasing outcomes, just like you were saying. In other words, we can um bring these inputs of good and be consistent in bringing them um and not worry at the same time. Um and I'm of course that's so much easier said than done. But I but I do feel like when you know um that, and you do, right? When you're parenting and you've offered um true affection, but held a line, you really know you've probably brought something good to your child. And it doesn't feel good in the moment, maybe because there's been a breach of relationship in the sense that uh not in the truer sense, but in the in the sense that there's a hard moment between you and another person. Um, and maybe there's a cutting off in a certain sense, but also you know, something very important is happening in their life in that moment. And that you have offered um love to them by holding a line that would have just been so much easier to drop. Like sometimes I'll say to my kids, like, it's really hard to have to implement uh this consequence or follow through on this thing that I told you I would do if this were to occur. I I don't like it. You're putting something very unhappy on my day, on my stomach. You know, it doesn't feel good. Um but I also know that I'm I'm thinking uh long term. I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm envisioning um, I'm not literally envisioning this, but I'm doing it for the them down the road. Um, the them of tomorrow. I'm investing in our relationship, you know, five days from now, a year from now, five years from now. And that's why I do the hard work now.
SPEAKER_01:Um I absolutely have parent, like this is another one of my little nuggets of parenting, is I parent towards. I'm never parenting, even a two-year-old. I'm not looking at a two-year-old. I am looking at a two-year-old as a two-year-old. Absolutely. You have to look at a two-year-old as a two-year-old. Developmentally, they require it. But I'm looking at that two-year-old knowing one day they're gonna be a 16-year-old driving a car. Right. And so this is there's like a really long game of parenting at play here all the time. And I I it's one of the things that I wish that parents really held is I'm not just parenting my child of today, I am also parenting the the teen that will be, the adult that will be, the relationship I want to have with my 30-year-old adult child. I'm parenting into that. And if I and I'm allowed to make mistakes here, but if I don't repair these mistakes, like if I build a habit of poorly investing, poor investments into the future, or lack of investments altogether into the future, then what I'm really hurting is actually the bulk of what I'm gonna experience with my offspring, right? My my six kids. The bulk of the time that I'm gonna have with them is actually from 18 on. It's not the first 18 years. And so it's this has always been you are like speaking my love language when you're and Rebecca, what you're describing there is a growth mindset.
SPEAKER_02:You're envisioning something that is not yet, but has the capacity to be. And actually, I believe that is what faith is. It's a recognition that there is a reality that God intends, God's behind it. He intends that goodness and that it is not yet visible, it's not in hand, we cannot see it yet. We don't even know if it will get there, and surely we don't have the power on our own to make it happen. And yet we have this vital role to play, evidence bears this out, in helping to facilitate its fruition. And so every time we do something that at the end of that day, when we go to bed, we cannot say that we see the fruit of. That is truly an act of faith if we indeed did it with a sincere heart to will their good uh to the best of our ability. And so what I think you were you were describing um what you know, growth-oriented, authoritative approach is.
SPEAKER_01:Like I I do this in my own parenting kind of um macro and micro, right? Like there's I remember doing this literally with a two-year-old when my daughter was two, asking her to help me with directions to her dad's work. And this is such a minor example, and I realize that I'm using it such a small way, right? But is it to the left or to the right? And using that language, right? Where she's like, oh, it's she'll she would start saying it's to the left, to the left. She's two. The reason behind me doing that is because I was going to have a 16-year-old daughter in a car one day, and I didn't want her to get lost somewhere and not have a sense of direction or how to get home. And it's it's such a simple thing, right? But in a more much more, much more um relational way. My son and I were in the kitchen last week, the week before, um, and we had had rupture and repair all day long about this certain topic. And as we kept getting low, like deeper and deeper into the repair work, one of the things that I was able to say to him is I have invested my life as a parent into liking you as a teenager. I never believed when people would say to me, Oh, just wait until they're a teenager. Just enjoy them now because one day they're gonna be a teenager. And that would come and I would go, I don't like that. And I don't think that that's what God intends for this relationship. And I'm actually going to invest in a different type of parenting that is going to pay off as a teenager. That I'm gonna be there, I'm gonna be a safe place as a teenager, actually. This is gonna be, we're gonna, teenagers are awesome. Are you kidding me? They're so funny, they're so vibrant, they're so, they've got so much good happening in their life. The the thought of missing out on that, uh no. And I looked at them and I was like, I have invested into this, and I am gonna stand here in this gap. And I am going to say, I we are going to like each other here. Like this is not, this is not, we're not gonna, we're not gonna play into this other stuff that's happening, right? I have invested into liking you as an adult. Like, and that happens here now, where we have where we protect and defend this relationship. Again, another soapbox, but like it's so incredibly important as a parent to be thinking about that for me. Like it's it's the top of like, I want them to know Jesus, and I want them to want to come home as adults. Like that is that is the like the bottom of that's that's the like foundation. I want them to know and love Jesus, and I want them to know that home is the safest place that they can come to, and to love coming home instead of adults that dread going home for the holidays, you know? Like that is.
SPEAKER_02:And actually, um, that's another thing that is borne out in the research is that authoritative parenting um is does lend itself to the best relationships with with parents um over time, relationships all around, but including, including family relationships. And again, that sort of transmission of values. Um so the likelihood of you sharing one another's values and those no guarantees, but um, but that the that tends to be the fruit. Um yeah. I I also um just feel like there's a lot of um really uh just little like daily things that can be part of um an important parts of authoritative parenting. Should we talk about some of those maybe? I would love to. I was thinking your audience might really like some practical things.
SPEAKER_01:Um I was thinking I would like some practical things to have a hypothetical situation we can talk about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let's talk about anything. And I I I I would say personally, this is just something I continue to practice and I'm growing in myself. So um I'm I'm not um the ultimate authority on it. Um I like to think of um the the warmth as as the atmosphere, you know, it's it's really the foundation upon which you're trying to build everything else upon. And and I I I personally feel like um the warmth is like the stickiness. That's the part that you're gonna gain the most responsiveness um from your kids in the ability for the things that you want to direct them in, the important things that you need to direct them in to stick with them comes from that warmth. And I experiment with this unintentionally because when I'm not applying warmth uh and kindness and respect, um the resistance level, you know, goes up substantially in in a you know a day, a day experiment. And then, you know, you you pivot and you you bring it back in, you bring back in warmth and um maybe an apology or deep respect and and the responsiveness goes up substantially. Um I I think um just those those um sort of you could you could say baseline habits of of interaction, of of warm eyes. What do we do with our face uh with our children? Um what do we do with our words? I think actually warmth, one of the best ways for warmth to come out is to to actually not say anything. Um, because there's I find as a parent, there are so many things that end up being important directives, often correctives. And one of the best ways I can show warmth is actually just to minimize my words, um, to limit them. Um and um I another, I'll I'll just give you an example of of how you can how you can build in um affection into your day. I think that you can create um habits that become anchor habits, um an anchor habit of a day to create an atmosphere of warmth. Um one thing that we do in our home, and I I I I did build this intentionally, although it kind of just gradually came, but now I hold it, I hold it very preciously, is that the first time I see each person who lives in our home, each of our children, my husband, I greet them with a kiss and a hug. And there's no um, there's nothing um sort of, there's no exchange of just like um the sorts of things that would be part of the the work of the day. So there's there's nothing but a greeting. It's just me and you, um, no guidance or instruction, no details of the day, just you and I. And then I do the same thing at night. Um, there's no other focus other than I'm saying goodnight to you. I'm not saying remember this. And that little thing alone, I feel like has felt very significant because what it means is when I am greeting my child, I'm saying what matters to me right now is seeing you and greeting you. And literally, until the next time I see you, I will not bring anything up. So building an atmosphere of warmth, you know, there's there's ways that we can just decide. This is what what I envision warmth looking like. And I really want it to be depictive and remembered as part of our home life, as part of our day, as part of what home feels like. And literal um expressions of your face, the way you move your the muscles of your body and your face and um those sort of anchor habits that you build in can help, and and they don't have to be huge things, can help create a feel um of warmth and belonging. So, so I'll just start with that because I I feel like that feature of warmth is is so important and foundational and really supports the discipline and authority um being effective and also received.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I have a I was not, I became aware, let's say it like this, because things that I were saying, I was saying weren't being received very well to kids. And I was like, I think that I'm not doing enough positive interactions. I think that there's so many, like there's more correction than positive interactions, and I think my ratio is off. Um, and so in this vein of warmth, started paying attention to that ratio. How many different touch points do they have with me that are positive and not corrective or neglectful for lack of a better word? Right where I'm like, like I can tend to be in a in a zone in my brain. So like if I'm walking into a kitchen, I'm not really thinking, like, are there kids sitting on the counter that I could interact with? I'm walking into the kitchen for a purpose and I'm doing that and moving back to the whatever task, right? And so I started having as an anchor habit that um to spontaneously uh like nurturing touch, especially to the younger four children in my home. Um, so when I see them, if I'm passing them in the hallway, rubbing their head, or like uh there was a day the other day that one of the kids was like laying in my bed watching TV, and I was going to my bathroom and I stopped, like I just detoured, ran like went over, tickled her, kissed her on her forehead, what kept going to the bathroom. And it was just this like it didn't re it doesn't require much, but it's a it's a habit that I have developed now of how do I increase more positive, new okay, neutral or positive interactions with my children, where I'm feeding into their love languages. Touch is not my love language at all. I am touched a thousand times more in a day than I want to be touched, like that is, you know, but it's like, how do I express warmth to my children? Um, kindness towards my children with minimal interaction.
SPEAKER_02:So it totally does. Another one that I love at this stage of life with the kids, um, and I just find for me works really naturally with my kids is humor. Um we just I just actually think my kids are really funny and they I think they like it that I think they're funny. And um, so we we really do laugh a lot and they know um they'll they'll even kind of um yeah, just just any anything that they they bring up or responses to the most ordinary things, even little snarky things. I they know I've been thinking it's kind of funny. And um, so we really have a good time. Uh and and that then allows me to pivot if I need to and kind of change my tone enough that they know I'm not joking and and say like, um, no, or at times, well, that went a little too far. Dude, there's a line.
SPEAKER_01:We crossed it. It was back, it was behind us actually, and we need to we need to rein it in.
SPEAKER_02:But I think it's the the good feelings, you know, that you have for one another that then um and so here this is gonna be kind of like um like putting a label on me, but um, we we quote nacho libre a lot in our house. And there's a quote for everything, it turns out, with teenagers with nacho libre. And I don't know why, but it I do find it so funny. And so the kids just love to like find a quote and you know to fit into anything from that movie, and they know they will get a laugh out of me. Well, just kind of that spirit of laughing a lot over silly things helps when you need to then have a conflict or have a serious moment or really correct them, um, especially in the teenage years. I just I've have found it helpful. So that area of warmth I feel like is very important.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I also find having buffer zones like what you were talking about. Um, one of our buffer zones used to be, and I'm saying this out loud so that I like bring it back, is the car ride home from school is I try. Sometimes I'm so mad about something that happened at school that I don't do this very well. But most of the time the conversation is centered on how the how the kids experience school that day. So, like, hey, tell me something, tell me something good that happened is the question that I'll ask in the car. Hey, tell me something good that happened in school today. But it's not where I do the correction if it's needed from what happened at school. I'll wait till we get home for that. But also just making sure, like it's simple things that we don't think about as adults because we're just we're going, we're having our own lives while our kids are having lives right beside us, right? And it's going, okay, I'm not gonna be on the phone when I pick my kids up from school. I'm not gonna, when they come in, I'm gonna greet them with their name and a smile and say, like, hey, how are you doing? Like, my kids can come into a car. Rather chaotic, but like, hey, sweetie, scoot over. Your sister's coming right behind you. But how uh how was your day? You know, like that kind of stuff. And actually, I don't even say how was your day immediately. Like, I'm always we're driving by the time I ask that, so that they have some kind of buffer. But it's really important. I think that seeing kids like those the hellos and the goodbyes of a day, like I think research shows have so much impact on relationship and like the last five minutes before bed or like the first five minutes, like those kind of like um, those pockets. If we can be present and very intentional in those moments, we have we're getting more bang for our buck there. I think that's really true. Which is harder at bedtime sometimes than it is in the like, you know, like those. Unfortunately, those are also the the margins of like my window of tolerance as well.
SPEAKER_02:That's really true. Yeah. But it's remarkable just what even a brief moment of love can bring. It doesn't have to be long. Um, now sometimes there's demands that make it longer, but um, I think um just remembering the vitalness of bringing digging into the deeper wells to pull something out when we're so tired at the end of the day, too. I think I think that's a good point that you're making.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you got to do it for two more minutes. I can do anything for two minutes. Yeah, your eyes smile, like they'll all have such an inner dialogue of like your smile's not reaching your eyes, and your very uh like attuned children know that your smile's not reaching your eyes.
SPEAKER_02:That's true. They can read us, can't they?
SPEAKER_01:They can read us better, better, especially like our children that are hyper aware of their situation. That's right. Yes, mom seems a little off, and I'm like, Mom would really like it if you went to bed. Let's do a manga.
SPEAKER_02:Totally.
SPEAKER_01:That's anyhow. Okay, and then when it comes to like authoritative, yes.
SPEAKER_02:On the other side of things, um, there's a lot we could talk about, but I I would maybe want to say two things. Um one is at at the very root of um authority and discipline is um, I believe, a a um a recognition that in order to bring goodness and health to our children, we need to bring them in proper alignment with reality, reality as God made it to be. Because apart from that reality, trying to do things their own way, they're going to suffer over time. Um, and um they are going to um experience um just hard things. And so um Dallas Willard uh famously said, um reality is what you bump into when you're wrong. Okay. And I I think that that basic concept that there's a reality to the universe, there's a flow to the universe, and um God, the designer of all things, um intends that when we align ourselves with God and his ways, um, whether you're talking about the fact that we need about eight hours of sleep a night as adults and 10 when we're younger and a little more when we're babies, um, and when we don't get that, even in marginal differences, one night within a week, you know, you're just miserable. That's a great example of like there's a reality to the universe. And when we try to stray from it, we can't stray very far without it impacting us profoundly. But it's also true um in every other dimension of human relationship, of um moral behavior, um, of um just our smaller and larger habits and choices. And um, so when you're talking about things like lying, is lying um, you know, just a sort of a residual tactic from you know a childhood that actually is sort of acceptable um because they don't know any different and yeah, we'd prefer they don't lie. Or is it actually something really, really important um that we um begin bit by bit to help guide our children toward um the the truth that um that lying is being false to um another person and and harming them and harming ourselves in doing so because we're severing relationship and we're trying to exist as though um what is not real could be the could be real for us. And it doesn't take very long before we begin to experience all of the implications of that, both internally and how we feel, and then how it impacts relationship and the capacity for trust and healthful relationships and the ability to understand that when we are truthful, even though it may be hard, um, we benefit in the long run. Um, so that's just an example that that at the foundation, we're trying to help our children learn. And it's vital that we do to teach them to live in alignment with reality as God intends. And that's why we do what we do. It's not just to set arbitrary limits like this is what works in our house, you know, or this is what mom wants, um, or until you're out of the home, you know, this is why, this is what we do. Um, nor is it just about keeping a child safe, though that is a very important and it's part of love, but it's not the full of it. Um, and ultimately in in guiding our children toward this deeper reality, we are helping to open the door to guide them toward not only relationship with others and ourselves, but also relationship with God, um, their creator. So I just wanted to say that as sort of the foundation, and then we could talk about maybe a couple other pieces.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And we can talk about how too, because that's that's important as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's my question right now when you're talking about lying, because it's lying is kind of, I love that you use that example, but it's also kind of ambiguous, right? Like it doesn't, I'm saying this as a parent who relies heavily on natural consequences as a form of um discipline, right? Like there's I love a natural consequence. I love a natural consequence, but um, because it takes the pressure off of me. Life is gonna, the reality of life is gonna teach you that this doesn't actually work, and then I can come alongside. Um, the day that I found out I was pregnant with our oldest daughter, I went to the bookstore and got a book by Danny Silk called Loving Our Kids on Purpose, which is an incredible book that I would encourage anybody to read, but it's based off of love and logic. So love and logic is the literal foundation of um how I chose to parent and what I ingested as like a I didn't want to do things the same way that I experienced in my home growing up. And I wanted I wanted to to change and I didn't have any tools. And so when you hear me talk about natural consequences, that's entirely, entirely from love and logic. But lying is kind of ambiguous, aside from the damaged relationship, right? Which, but we don't want to withdraw connection. Um my head is tilting to the side because sometimes I'm like, but loss of connection is sometimes the result of um of lying.
SPEAKER_02:So yes, it is, and it's vital that they understand that. I think sometimes, especially in foster care and adoption, we we really prize connection and the desire to connect. And so we're hesitant to allow it to be more limited, partially severed, um, at any point, if we can avoid it, which is admirable. But but if it if it um if it happens that um a lessening of of connection is is we're put that we put on something false, a false portrayal of connection when in fact something has been severed by wrongdoing, um then we now are are offering something false to our children.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, because again, if we're trying to help them encounter and live in reality as things actually are, it is so important that they understand, and not in a manipulative way and not in a way that is withholding forgiveness or reconnection, right? But for them to understand that there is um a serious hurt and severing of trust when when lying happens. Um and so for me, I I really in in in my life and in my parenting, I really have found it important to not every time, but very often, just let them have a little window into the hurt that I am experiencing. Um I need them to know that that that lying is impactful to me. Their choice impacted me. Um because um I think that first of all communicates their agency and the vitalness of their agency to bring restoration um to the relationship. And um so the severing and then the also the severing of trust. And that to me is where the natural consequence really comes in is that it's not punitive, it's me saying, This I am so eager to entrust this area to you. In fact, I think sometimes I'm aching for it more than you are, but um, it can only come when you have demonstrated a certain willingness to um, you know, um follow through on this activity and or if you have not to come and to confess that, because that confession is a commitment to truth. Um, it's an acknowledgement and a willingness to bear um sort of the failing. Um and and that's very difficult to do. And it and it it can be one of the, I think, one of the hardest things um for any human, um, certainly for a child, but we want to put it before them as an option that they could choose a pathway of of truth um in this particular situation or in a future one as they um go along. Um, and then um also the option to um sincerely apologize and make right, that that would they would be invited um to to do those things um and to make consistent, semi-consistent different choices in the future as a means of gaining, regaining trust and also gaining the ability to um um to have a wider range of freedoms and responsibilities.
SPEAKER_01:I tell my son, like, trust is the currency of your teenage years. Like you want more responsibilities, you want more freedoms. Well, nobody really wants more responsibilities as a teenager. They want more freedom, but they they're they're happy if the freedom comes without the responsibility, but it doesn't happen. But I tell them this all the time trust is the currency. The more trust you put in the bank, the more freedom I get to give you. And it's my heart's desire to give you more fruit more and more freedom as you grow and as you're able to handle it. I mean, I have the same conversation with my younger kids, right? Like, um I want you to be able to do these things, and it it requires being able to see you do these things with oversight. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think the other part that goes with um broader than just the lying, but in any kind of helping a child learn to live in accord with reality is um that that you communicate to them that what really matters is their choices and not their words or their promises or their expressed desires. Um, not that those things don't matter. Of course, they're valuable. Um, and they they often are wonderful expressions of what's most deeply in their heart, but their willingness and ability to fulfill those choices that you've agreed on with them are critical. And they um have expressed their willingness to do uh their their actual acting on those choices are what are going to help you ultimately make your decisions.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:In a sense, you know, your decisions are very much going to be guided by their decisions. This is actually so useful in parenting because um it allows you to work with one child at the position of readiness and willingness that they're at. Um, and one child who's younger may be ready much sooner. And so it gives you a grid from which you don't have to be um uh using the chronological framework as the means of sort of being fair or equal or a plan of like gaining freedoms and responsibilities and opportunities. But actually, it's really based on it's really within them. Um, they have choices and control of a certain kind and the ability to grow in and demonstrate certain abilities, um, certain core character qualities, um, and that we want to come alongside them. That's what you were saying earlier, Rebecca, is that come we kind of are coming alongside them and we want to mentor them, right? And what that really is, is coming alongside and saying, you and I both agree that this um goal of yours to do this, or this this sort of academic aim or um this desire to increase in kindness to your siblings or whatever it may be is good. And um we're going to attempt to fulfill this through these basic steps that's agreed upon. And then we come alongside and help encourage um and hold them accountable to what they're agreeing to because it is so it is something they've expressed as deeply in their heart. So it's a little more like coaching, right? You have this goal of achieving this successful outcome um athletically. Um and the coach is there to support you to get there, but they're gonna probably push you at times when you are totally ready to not do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 100%. And I think it changes, I think that this really changes developmentally over the course of a child's growing up in your house, right? Certainly in the younger toddler years, you are not a coach. You are very much I think, and and in that like five to eight, you have to operate in a different way, and eight to eleven, you're operating in a different way. And you know, you're getting into your teenage years, and you start looking at like, I have three years left with my oldest before I launch her off into the world. What is left that I need to teach her, right? What is left that I need to give her access to so that she can experiment with freedom in the controlled environment of our home before I release her off into the wild, where she experiences freedom for the first time. And I think that that's what I really like is the mindset that I've always had is how much freedom can this child experience and still be safe in a structured environment? And so I'm looking constantly for um levels of freedom and to add another level of freedom as they can do it with the goal, right? Like we're talking about like long-term parenting, with the goal of when you're 18, you are ready to face the world and and you're launched from such a place of from such a firm foundation of love and kindness and values, and and you've experimented with freedom enough in the safety of these confines that that I that it takes away this need to like rebel against the the world. You know what I mean? Like the like it's the um yeah, it's the goal. So you really should. I I do think as parents, we move into a place of I'm still responsible for the fence that's around you. I'm still responsible for the way the freedom that you experience in these, in this environment. And if I'm doing my job right, I'm increasing that distance so that you have a lot more room to move around. And I am also at that, I'm also moving with you developmentally to give you what you need for me as a parent. And it's really, I mean, it's one of the reasons why parenting is one of the challenging things, right? Like it's like because what works for one kid doesn't work for another kid, and what worked for this kid at five doesn't work for them anymore at 10. And every kid is like, I feel I can feel very dynamic. Yeah, it's very dynamic, and so it keeps you on your toes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And and it keeps you. My mom used to say, I have five kids. I have I have five wonderful opportunities to be on my knees before the Lord. More reason, more opportunity to pray.
SPEAKER_02:That's so good. And I really appreciate what you're saying too. Um, just that there's a progression as as a as a young person grows. And we could talk a lot about that. But I think one helpful way for me that has been helpful for me to think about that idea is that authoritative parenting, it sounds very hands-on, it almost sounds intensive. And it is any, you know, parenting is just a lot of work. But one principle I would say within um authoritative parenting is that actually you only want to apply as much authority, as much discipline as is needed.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And part of what's needed is actually within that realm of kind of oversight, you actually have to have you're you're providing a realm for succeeding and failing without it being overwhelming to the child. And then that expands because our our our authority isn't about the authority itself. Again, it's that promoting of goodness, promoting of good for the child, and goodness entering into their life and then coming out from them to others as a picture of what we're aiming at. So, so the authority is not the end. It's not the establishment of the authority. It's actually the it's kind of it's it's it's the ability to be able to provide as little as possible while enabling the most um the most health, the most success um in in in in in the formation of the person. I'm not talking about success like in in sort of just worldly terms, but but we're we're we want to be able to pull back is what I'm really saying. So I I think that's a a good principle uh to hold. And then that allows for a child to um healthfully experience um measures of autonomy as they are um progressing into uh young adulthood.
SPEAKER_01:And um having it conversational too. And I think that this goes into both the warmth and the kindness and the authoritative aspect, right? One of that this is one of the things that um this isn't a democracy, it's a benevolent dictatorship. Like this is one of the um it's one of the things that I've said in parenting when it's like when it when it can become too conversational, where I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this isn't a democracy. Like this is not, let lest you be confused. I'm asking for input here, but I am actually still the mother, and I'm still the one that is fully in charge of what is happening.
SPEAKER_02:Right, that's true. And part of that's because you're trying to run a whole ship. You're trying to run a whole ship, and so and you're entrusted with that. That's an important job.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it but it's also this like um I'm thinking specifically of this one experience that we had recently in our home where one of our kids kind of messed up in a big way. And I experienced that night in the middle of it, and it was not less hard, but I experienced that night in this beautiful way of when the when it happened, we were the first ones that that they came home to. Like it everything that we had worked into happened, of it was our arms that they fell into and sobbed and sobbed, and the the sorrow at the at the severing of connection that had happened from actions, and all of these things were were so present, and it was like oh, this is what we've parented towards. Um and this is I I want to like add to the point that you were making is um we get to parent with the Holy Spirit. That's right. We get to parent with the Holy Spirit, and so when we are looking at our kids and going, what is needed from me right here in this authoritative uh um role and this developing of this human being who is as a person doesn't need a ton of correction, right? Like, as like this is a child that a sharp look can change behavior instead of needing like the hammer of parenting that comes. I have other kids that they're like, until you pull out the hammer, I'm not like this. Is whatever. That's a horrible excuse. Example for a podcast where it can be wildly taken out of context. But I hear you, I hear you, but there are no actual hammers used in disciplining children. But this child is a child that needs a needs a look a lot of times. Um and there was a nudge, truly, from the Holy Spirit that felt like tonight you're gonna you're gonna do a little bit more than you would do. And there's a reason, there's a reason for this. And as the situation unfolded, the they ended up being grounded for two weeks. We got to have conversations about it because we've developed this pattern of conversational, like, we're a safe place. We can we can talk about this. I'm still gonna hold this line. I'm still gonna do it, you know. I'm we're gonna do the things, the consequences as they unfold. But um, this kid was telling me that they didn't really feel like they needed to be grounded, you know, like they they felt like they learned the lesson that night, and they just they really felt like being grounded was um a little bit more than they said, listen, I hear you. And honestly, you're probably right as far as it comes to this situation, but this consequence was actually for your future self. Like this was not about right now. This is for the next time that you find yourself in a situation that could be unsafe. I want you to understand that it has consequences and not think consequences don't touch me because I'm untouchable in the family. You know what I mean? Like whatever it's for it's for future you. It's not for today you. It's it's because I'm parenting that kid too, um, which kind of just ties it all together. Okay. One hypothetical we are, I don't know how you're doing on time.
SPEAKER_00:I'm doing okay.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. One hypothetical situation, mother to mother, expert in research to not expert in research. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that you get phone calls from school nearly every day for multiple children for different, various reasons. Uh and uh you've gone through your array of parenting to say, like, okay, let's try this tactic, let's try this tactic, let's try this tactic, and you're giving it a go. You know what I mean, Rachel? Yeah, you're giving it a real go, and you're still getting these phone calls every day. I find myself, hypothetically speaking. This mother finds herself kind of at the end of her rope here, because it's a it's a unique situation where the behavior is happening away, the uh, you know, um, and it's really about their relationship with their teacher at school or the the people in authority there at the school. And it's kind of like more globally, like, hey, people in it, you have to listen to people in authority, but also like I need this mom, hypothetically speaking, needs the phone calls to stop. And so is there like, does anything kind of come to mind in this scenario? Because I know that there are so many people who get phone calls from school, and in the sense of like growth mindset and behaviors aren't always stuck, but some behaviors just seem really locked in. How do you approach this? How would you approach this?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Well, for this hypothetical mom, I have great sympathy.
SPEAKER_00:Hypothetically, she got a phone call.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and and you're right. I know, I know there are whether, I don't know if it's multiple a day, but but just kind of that frequent um, you're not only dealing with the the the weight and the challenges within the home, but you know as your child goes out that there's sometimes just risks of, you know, everything from kerfuffles to bad relationships with teachers to not doing what they ought to much worse things, you know? And that's so hard. It's almost like you're sending putting out a liability into the world. Um, and that can become more burdensome sometimes as time goes on. And that's um that's a very heavy weight for a parent to carry. Um, and also there's, I think, often just a strong feeling of wanting um the best supports and um sort of the best things to wrap around your child and sometimes what's available, whether it's in the context of a church or a school or other environments, extended family, it feels less than it could be or ought to be. And that can not only be disappointing, but sometimes hurtful. Um, and so I just I just know that can be very, very difficult. Um, and I I from I would say from a research perspective, I don't feel like I have much to directly draw from there, except for the larger principles, um, which are number one, um, that we um will do best in the long run as parents in the context of community. And um, the school is a source of community, as is our church. And we don't want to withdraw, even when it becomes very difficult. And it takes a certain humility, I think, to persist in um relationships with others when you feel on the defensive all the time, or you feel like you have to explain things all the time. Um so I think I think being willing to humbly persist as best you can is a really important part of um what's needed initially. Um, and I think it just there's so many different ways that what you're describing could be, you know, depending on the child, what's what's happening, right? But I think I think very often in those cases, there is such an important need for our children to, again, going back to that concept of experiencing reality, for them to encounter life as it actually is, um, in environments outside of the home where um they are subject to real consequences for the choices that they make. And so I think one of the worst things we can do is excessively seek to soften the blows um that come from um, may it be the teacher or the decision of the school um and um in other environments and to be continually coming in to rescue them, that does not prepare them for the world that they will be encountering as they become an adult. Um and so seeing the choices that they're making as important opportunities for them to learn within measure. And then one other thing I would say is that you know, education is a whole life. Um and uh evaluating as a family the best options for your family, um, including each one of the children and their needs on an ongoing basis, say a yearly basis, um, is a really important part of parenting. And um, it's not just to like say, oh, this is not an easy enough option for my child. So I'm gonna pull them out of this, but actually, again, with that growth mindset, we're looking for a place where they're going to be faced with challenges, but also opportunities to learn to love learning and have people in their life that will um that that will help cultivate that love of learning and love of life and a place where they can grow. And um sometimes there's really not a good readiness for um the environment, the academic environment that they're they're put in. Um and maybe there's there are um important modifications. They're not always necessarily going to be through formal structures. Um for instance, just spending time out of doors, running around, having time to play and move, um, move around, move their bodies is so pivotal to a child's mental and relational health. And um are there ways that that can be added in to a child's day, whether it's before school, getting up and watching the sun rise, being out, you know, outside and getting some of their energy out? Or um is there are there um opportunities for the school to help facilitate them having um um some more unstructured time um within the day? Um, you know, sometimes the benefits to a child of being able to begin their academic experience a little bit later is very beneficial. Um, or um, you know, pivoting with a different academic environment at times, while also I would say there's value in just persisting. Um, and knowing that you said at one point a four-year you'd been doing something for four years and seeing no change. Um I think that's pretty common actually. And I would say four to six years of of apparently very little growth, but then something happens and there is is a shift and um a developmental shift and a behavioral shift and a growth of some kind. Um, but it it really did take so much longer than you could ever have conceived of that you thought it wouldn't happen. But then you look back and it did, something happened. And and I think you could probably testify to that in so many other aspects of parenting. Yeah. Um, but the thing that you're in right now always feels like the thing that you just don't know. You just don't know if it will end up great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is so true. Yeah, there's uh hypothetically, this mom is tired.
SPEAKER_02:This mom is like and hypothetically, I really understand.
SPEAKER_01:Uh at the end of every podcast, we do a lightning round. Um, so I'm gonna ask you three questions, answer as fast as you can.
SPEAKER_02:Can I just say one thing before Rebecca? I just want to make sure. Sorry to interrupt you on that. I just want to make sure to communicate this since this is for foster and adoptive families. Um I just want to make sure that parents know that authoritative parenting is not only good for um populations who have not experienced early adversity or have not experienced trauma. Um, it is also good for those who have um experienced really difficult early experiences. Um, there's post-adoption research that shows that um authoritative parenting is effective for children who've had early adversity in just reducing social and emotional problems. Um you see the most gains in self-control, um, in flexible thinking, in relational health, in cognitive skills, um, and just overall sense of well-being when um you have the ingredients of warmth and um limits, consistency, follow-through, um, and um, and um that kind of authority in a child's life. Um, and and even what's advised for common childhood diagnoses, whether you're talking about autism or ADHD or oppositional behavior or um other conditions, um, even with um fetal alcohol um effects. So many of the um the basic um kind of skills and guidance for parents are various expressions of an authoritative approach that call toward high levels of consistency, high levels of sensitivity, nurture, and um um um patience and attunement to what the developmental readiness is of that child, but also a willingness to push them toward the development of important skills, um, the repetitions that they need in order to achieve that, not giving up um on doing that and having letting helping them to know that um you have expectations of them. Uh for people who have often who are diagnosed with ADHD, um, actually they benefit from high demand environments. Um, in other words, um, what's very kind of dull and distracting to them is low demand environments and um being outdoors, being physically active, um, guiding your children to do those things, um, having really clear rules. I mean, I could just go down the list of what, depending on the diagnosis, what is common guidance to parents. Um, so I I just I just really want it to be clear that this is not sort of like the kind of parenting you would do in an ideal um setting where you have biological children um and things are easy peasy. Um, this is what's needed for um for all for all human beings and in different, but with different levels of amplification to support the needs of the children that we're caring for, um, supporting the most good over time for them with the authority that God has given us. So that was just one thing I wanted to be sure to communicate.
SPEAKER_01:I love that encouragement. Um yeah, I think that's so great. I think that's so great. It really truly is the beneficial way of parent. Like it's it's just the dividends that it yields. And I know that I'm talking, I've talked about it like parenting in terms of investing so many times. But it is such an investment. It's such an investment, it's such a pouring out and a pouring into. And for me, something I'm gonna do that much of, I really want to be doing the best possible way. Like I really don't want to waste my time doing other things. I want to be very aware of the job that I'm doing. I want to be very aware of um the course that we're on and to have quick course corrections if needed. And so um, and I agree. I I intentionally did not steer us into the waters of trauma-informed care practices that that we could go down that has a some have like a lower consequential aspect to them, where we are removing more consequences than is actually beneficial for the child because they don't experience real life. And I didn't want to compare different models of parenting here. Um, but this is where I find real true lasting goodness as it comes to a parent. Having kind authoritative parenting. It's what I've seen inside of my own home working the most over the long haul. Biological, adoptive, foster, it doesn't matter. Like having that sense of it really it you have to convey a sense of authority. And we didn't really, we didn't talk about that very much, but like we don't um as a parent, it's just like I am in charge here, actually. Like I know who the leader of this pack is, and I'm not confused by it. Um, is it's so important. Okay. Anything else before, and we'll link to your book. We'll link to the Institute for Families, um, all of that stuff in the podcast. Is there anything else you want to mention before we get into the lightning round?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think there's so much more that we could talk about, of course, but I just have um a similar heart in terms of what you were saying. We want to be able, parenting is hard enough. I I just really don't want parents to feel like they have to experiment. And there's so many, there's so many um um just different trendy approaches to parenting. Yes. Um, I I want parents to know where this is there is a substantial evidence base. Um, and I think frankly, for many parents, this is pretty intuitive, especially when you get a mom and a dad together and you blend the minds of a dad and a mom. Um, I I think this makes a lot of sense to a lot of parents. Um, and um so I I just want parents to feel confidence. Like you were saying, how do you convey authority? You you do have to have a sense of confidence that it belongs to you because it's been endowed to you, and um, that it is for deep good. And so you are a bringer of good then then. Um, and so, and again, we can't control outcomes and we certainly won't do it perfectly, but there's there's actually a lot of wiggle room for that. Um still having a lot of good outcomes.
SPEAKER_01:30 to 50 percent. Like if you get this right 30 to 50 percent of the time and you repair when you don't get it right, the outcome is there. Like the research behind it says that you have get it right 30 to 50 percent of the time, repair when you don't get it right, and and you will have set your children up with such a strong foundation, regardless of the foundation that they came into your home with, right? We get an opportunity to repair the walls here. We get an opportunity to repair the foundation, and it's also just our job to show up and be faithful. That's it. Like, my job is to show up and be faithful every single day. And what that means, like in a in an actual like way, is I sent my kids to school this morning in a way that like maybe is not the best. Like it's subpar. It was subpar. It means that all day long I have been in the background of my mind going, what's the best way to repair this? What's my next move as a mom? How do I bring healing in this way? What's my job? What's my role? It's it's been running constantly, not in a way of like, if I don't do this, then you know everything will just go downhill for the rest of the night, but in a way of like I get to pick my kids up from school and we get to have a fresh start. What do I want that to look like?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like this is kind of knowing like we get all of these fresh starts as a parent, and and it's our job to create the atmosphere that that parenting exists inside of. And so I just want people to be encouraged in the job that they're doing and knowing like we don't we don't have to experiment with different types or different like what you were saying, like it's we can take a shortcut and go, okay, kind authoritative parenting is the thing that has the most research behind it as effective and good for the children in our home. And we that's what we want for them. We want good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think with that, you're speaking to your own growth, right? You're talking about that opportunity that presents itself when we have done wrong, that we have an opportunity to to make it right. And um, I think that's what coheres this whole vision of an authoritative approach is that um it really is a vision for a family growing together. And as Christians, we would say for for a Christian family growing together in the Christian life, becoming um sons and daughters of God, um, and becoming brothers and sisters in Christ and moving more and more toward that um as time goes on. And so that allows for our children to grow and us to help facilitate it, but both through the process of parenting them and also everything that life brings, um, that we ourselves are also growing. And um, and so that's that's to me what this whole vision is ultimately about.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I love it so much. I get excited every single time that you talk about it. I get excited every single time I hear you talk about it. I'm like, yes, this is what I've been waiting for to come and and be from uh the platforms of parenting, especially in the foster and adoptive world, but parenting in general, like this is this is the message I've been like waiting for because it encapsulates everything. It encapsulates everything. Um okay. On that note, lightning round, what's on your nightstand?
SPEAKER_02:I'll tell you what's not on my nightstand. I never have my cell phone on my nightstand. Oh, okay. We Jed and I and all our our approach in our home is just to keep our phones out of our rooms. And so I have a really old-fashioned alarm clock that you can't even quite set the alarm to the exact time you want because it's just kind of clunky, but I love it. It's kind of cute. Um, so that is what is um both on and not on my nightstand.
SPEAKER_01:That's fantastic. Um, I'm always fascinated when people have messy nightstands or neat nightstands or like stacks of books, but not the actual book that they're reading. Um it's always it's so fascinating to me. Okay, what um book or podcast are you loving right now?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay. I didn't know you were gonna ask me book or podcast, but that's a great question. Oh man, I'm I'm listening to a I'm listening to a lot of things, but I actually am not typically listening to podcasts. Um I listen to a lot of things. I'm a runner and I listen to a lot of things while I run. But I recently, my daughter told me about Speechify. And it basically takes articles. This is kind of showing a nerdy part of me, but it it takes articles and it reads it for you. But they have like these kind of compelling, real-sounding voices. Okay. And so you you do pay a little subscription, but I I just like pile in the articles that come my way.
SPEAKER_01:Your research articles are what you're listening to when you're writing.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, it's interesting. I I do I find it very I find this whole realm that I'm studying for the institute um very interesting. To me, it's all about human flourishing in every domain. And so I'm constantly pulling articles, or someone will send me things. So yeah. And I love, I love listening to Dallas Willard. So I listen to a lot of his stuff.
SPEAKER_01:He's great. He's great. Um, also, I love the nerdy side of you. You never have to apologize for it. I love it anytime that you're like, so I'm about to nerd out here for just a second. Bear with me while I tell you about all of this research. I'm like, that's my kind of girl right there. Like, that is like there is one thing I love. It is diving into research. And we can blame the fact that I'm a history major, that I was a history major in college on that. Um, I love research. Like I love diving into it. I love exploring it and comparing it and doing all of the stuff. I mean, find me a better time. And I mean there's lots of better times, but like that is a real good time. Um, okay. The last question is what is bringing you joy right now?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, I have a lot of standard things that bring me joy. Um, like I love to run because just getting outdoors, um, it's a discipline. Like you have to like force yourself to do it. But it just, I come back so happy being outdoors. I use that time to pray, to also listen and um just to move my body. Um, so that's definitely a source of joy for me. But at a in a deeper level, um, I was thinking about this question ahead of time. Um, one of the true Wellsprings for me has been just my habit of like, you know, it's my quiet time, but I shifted it recently to one particular activity, which is I just come in my room. It's kind of dark because it's winter now. I just keep the light out and I go and I kneel by the window, actually, and I have my cup of coffee, my black, black coffee, and I I just um I just pray. And um I'm just what I'm really thinking about at first is just um wanting to recognize God's presence. Um and um I start by just looking up at the sky and um recognizing it's like I'm pulling my whole mind away from myself entirely. And and I just I in doing that, in in in like you kind of just pull yourself away from all the things that flood in immediately when you wake up of the troubles and the concerns you have, and just look to this God and recognize his his presence in your life. Um, it just it just instantly um floods my heart with um a sense of of well-being and um contentment and goodness. And that is like exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. And so I've just been trying to cultivate that um, that experience because I that's what I want. I want that that connection with God that I can carry into my day, that sense of his presence that's felt deep within my being. So um, yeah, that's what I would say.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. Um, thanks for being on the podcast, Rachel. Such a great conversation. I loved it.
SPEAKER_02:I loved talking with you, Rebecca. Thank you for having me.