From Foster Care to Adoption: The Space between TPR and Finalization

TPR is supposed to bring clarity, but for a lot of foster and adoptive families it brings a new kind of fog. We’re talking about the space nobody captions on social media: mourning and celebrating at the same time, sitting in a courtroom while a parent loses rights, and walking out knowing a child’s story just changed forever.

Stacy Lasonde joins me for an honest, tender conversation about what it feels like to live between the termination of parental rights and adoption finalization. We unpack the shock of the TPR day itself, the impossible “last visit,” and the strange reality of parenting kids who are legally wards of the state. We also get practical about the decisions that suddenly feel loaded, like whether you hang family photos, buy the bigger car, or make plans when an appeal could still change everything.

Then we go deeper into the internal shift many foster parents don’t expect: foster care can carry an unspoken eject button, and adoption removes it. We talk about responsibility, control, regret, and shame, and why “write a different ending” can be a lifeline when your brain keeps running worst-case scenarios. If you’re navigating foster care adoption, trauma-informed parenting, attachment, or the long wait after TPR, you’ll feel seen here.

If this conversation helped you name your own middle ground, subscribe, share it with a foster parent who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these stories. What part of the wait is hardest for you right now?

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Transcript

he Myth Of The Clean Ending

SPEAKER_03 0:00

There's a version of foster care and adoption that gets told a lot. The one with a clean ending, a court date, a forever family. But most people living it know there is much more in the middle. The grief, the waiting, the love that grows before anything is certain. Hey guys, thanks for joining me today on Behind the Curtain. I'm your host, Rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. On this episode, I'm joined by Stacey Lesant, and we are diving right into the complexity of TPR, into what it means to mourn and celebrate at the same time, into the strange limbo between termination and finalization, and into the nuanced, beautiful, complicated reality of attachment and how it can look and feel different in foster care than it does in adoption. If you've ever felt like your experience didn't fit into the tidy narrative, this conversation is for you. Thanks for being here and um talking about something that's kind of a little bit vulnerable to talk about. We're gonna narrow our um conversation today to that time between termination of parental rights and adoption. Okay. And what that looks like and feels like and um kind of and just is like in the family. Okay. Um so you had a placement that was with you for a while and it complicated in the sense that half of a sibling set left to biofamily, one stayed, another one was born, came in, joined the party, moving pieces all around. And then um, as cases that go on forever do, this one ended up in uh TPR, which is term termination of parental rights. Yeah. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Um, yeah, it was a bit of a journey, a bit of an emotional roller coaster, knowing um likely how it would end, but not knowing for a fact that that's how it would go, which is a real um, I feel like emotional journey of um letting go of control um and not really knowing what to expect in that regard. But um we just kind of you you just kind of trust the process, but also like do what you can to control the process. Control the process. I didn't that sound silly, but um yeah, it it and you're just so emotionally invested. Termination of Printer Rights was a horribly emotional and heartbreaking yet beautiful time. That sounds really crazy to say. Um, because obviously it's not how you want it to go. Um, but we knew that it opened up a door for our family to um grow because we knew that um this was the first time for our family that uh this had happened and there was no biological family to step in um and and adopt the kids. So we kind of knew if termination happened, then we would proceed with adoption.

he Courtroom Moment Nobody Prepares For

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Yeah. Um I think it's no small thing standing in a courtroom on a day of termination of parental rights. For me at least, this was one of um it's in my top five worst days.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah. Um I had no idea. I had no idea that it would be. I had only been um in a TPR situation during COVID life. And so I was not in the room, and actually the judgment was made after. So I was not there when that judgment happened. Um, and I knew I knew that this child had biological family to go to. Um actually, yes. Um, I was thinking I had another TPR, but it was different. Um, and so I I didn't know the impact the same as when you are in the room and it's decided with all of the people that were in there. Yeah. I had no idea.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

What did that feel like for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Uh man. It's devastating because you know that the these kids that you love so so much are forever gonna have this hole of what was and what should have been. Um, and you're watching these parents, or in our case it was just one parent there, um that forever this is done. That was horrible. Um and yet knowing the redemption and the beauty of like we are going to step in and be this these kids family for forever. So, so but also like that feeling horrible, like that I even have to do that. Um, so it was it was an emotional thing that I didn't expect. Um because I love them and I didn't want to say goodbye. It was gonna be ugly either way. Like either, either we lose them and they go back to something that in my, you know, fleshly mind is like, is that gonna be better for you? I'm not sure. Um, so we have that loss and they have that loss of like we are the family that they know also, and they go back to this other family that they don't know as well. Um, or they lose their biological family and gain our family, but um, either way, loss was gonna happen, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

I mean, you brought one of them home from the hospital.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

You are quite literally the only mother that he has, right? And so that's a significant loss by the time that TPR is happening. That is a significant loss in that in a child's life. Um, I remember feeling like all of the air had been sucked out of my lungs.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

And looking over at um our kids guardian at Lightum, and my eyes, I could feel how wide my eyes had had got in that moment. And I just looked at her with these panic-driven eyes, and I was like, I can't, I can't breathe. It was so overwhelming watching a parent be stripped of their rights.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

I will never we ours, um dad didn't handle it well. Yeah. And so it was pretty emotionally charged um in that moment. Um, so my feelings about the other things kind of took aside. Yeah, because safety became the number one priority at that point. Like physical, actual safety. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Um so that was wild.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

It was wild. It was pretty pretty wild. And so we sort of processed as time went on after that. Um, but kind of just like shock and awe, which seems silly to say because we knew like you know going in, but like you're still shocked that it's happening. Like also, you can't even fathom, you can't even fathom, I can't even, I can't even fathom that happening to me, to my biological with my biological kids. I can't even fathom it. And so you feel this brokenness for these parents who you know, I know that dad loved these kids. I mean, he didn't know the baby. He loved the idea of the baby, I think, but I know he loved Rennie. Like I have no doubt. Um, but just couldn't parent. Couldn't parent and couldn't make the decisions to provide safety for her, which um is what we say to her when she says, Yeah, I miss my other dad. Like, I know. I know, I know, but he couldn't make choices that were safe for you, and we want you to be safe.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Yeah. Um it's a parent's job. I tell my kids that it's a parent's job to um for to keep kids safe. And if a parent can't do that, it's the community's job to help make sure that they're safe. And then, you know, as we get down the path, the path, sometimes the other parents have to be chosen for them because our our job is to keep you safe.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yeah, and I mean the reaction in the courtroom was a reflection of that. It it it was devastation, but not what my devastation would have looked like or a you know, a safe devastation. It was a explosion. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Fight, flight, or flee, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:24

Yeah, right, right. I wanted to flee.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Yeah, and dad chose fight. His nervous system goes that way. Yes, right. Um, I in the courtroom right afterwards for us, I could not imagine, like going back to what you were saying, like I you cannot fathom this happening to your biological children, and you're watching it happen to another mom or another dad. And as much as my heart is for the kids that were in my home, my heart in that moment was as a mother.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Right. Yeah.

he Last Visit And Bearing Witness

SPEAKER_03 10:01

And um, and it was it just was breaking for hers. And um and then quite surprisingly, they were like, Oh, um can you guys go do a last visit with the kids?

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Same day. Same day. And there's reasons for it. There's reasons for our yes, there's reasons for the ask. There was there's um situations with the case that it's like, yeah, this is this is when it's gonna happen. If it's gonna happen, and and parents are um have the right to a last visit with their kids. And that is something that nobody even knows how to prepare for.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

No, how do you?

SPEAKER_03 10:52

How do you prepare?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

And so we went and gathered the kids and I said yes under the um with the provision that we it was supervised. Like I did not want to be by ourselves there. And so our guardian at Lightham came and um we gathered the kids, we met the parents at the like designated spot, and we just kind of all held back. Like there was not really any. Um, I took pictures and um tried to stay as small as possible.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

But when we were leaving, like that that moment to say that that moment scarred me isn't accurate, but to say that it imprinted on my soul is accurate. Watching them hug their kids and put them into my car and never know because of the uncertainty of the case at the time, because um, you know, there was a there was a wrench thrown in the um process at the 11th hour with with ours, um, to never know if they were going to see their kids again.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

And to put them in a car and to, and we left first. And it was that idea of like, could I even fathom putting Zoe or Slade in a car and watching them drive away, never knowing if I was gonna see them again? No, I'd be a disaster. I would never be okay another day in my entire life. Yeah, right and and not even just that. Not even just that, but but the the very idea is unfathomable to me. Right. The very idea of of not being their mother is unfathomable to me. Yeah. And yet here we are, here we were.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah. Happening right there.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Right there in front of you. And you and I think the other thing, and tell me if you felt like this too. One of the things that I felt was that I it was my job to bear witness to what was happening. Like, like I felt like, especially in the courtroom, like I couldn't look away.

SPEAKER_06 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

As much as I wanted to look, as much as I wanted to look at the ground when they were signing the paperwork. I felt it was my duty to my kids that would, that I would become their forever mom, to not look away, to bear witness to this moment in their life that they that they could not bear witness to. And like, oh God, I'm gonna cry again. Like that I was the keeper of their story in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

And I was the one that, like, the weight of this had to rest on me because it couldn't rest on my kids. And I had to like, I had to like bend my body over them and shoulder the weight of TPR.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

I did not think I was gonna be crying during this podcast. I thought I was gonna be interviewing.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

That's the way it goes. I'm glad.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

You're glad that it's me. Yeah, right. I was sitting over here.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I was sitting high over here.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

So, okay, so then TPR happens, and then as you know, we enter this like very ambiguous space. Right. Of the moments between oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I feel like I want to add before TPR, like the road a little bit before TPR, you're praying for permanency for your kids. I mean, we had had our placement, it had been so long. Like, and how many times did I say, she deserves permanency? They deserve permanency. Yes, we need permanency. This decision has to be made, fighting for permanency. And then you get to that day and you're like, oh, this is what this is what I was fighting for. Oh my gosh. Oh God, I'm permanently like, oh, but all but also like holding, like it could go the other way. This is, you know, it could permanency can also mean something else that is also wild. Um, and so I feel like I missed a little bit of that like processing, what you're processing and causing it to be emotional because of the way that ours went. In that moment, it wasn't quite the it was heavy, so heavy. And I absolutely was in that moment, but it the circumstances of ours sort of took a different turn.

hen Support Shows Up In Real Ways

SPEAKER_03 15:47

It did. But you and I were in constant contact that week. And I think that you felt it ahead of time. Yeah. Not in the courtroom. You were feeling the weight of that um leading up, leading up to it. Whereas it took me by surprise in the courtroom. Yeah. Um, you want to know something wild, and I want to say it so that it's it's just kind of permanently etched in the story, is that at the beginning of that week, somebody said, Hey, what do you need this week for um just like how can we support your family? What do you need this week? And I was like, I need I'm gonna need food. Like I'm gonna, I'm definitely gonna need food. From the moment that that that I said those words until everything wrapped up, there wasn't a single meal that I fed myself. Yeah, like, and it wasn't just from the person that I said that to. It was like the agreement between God and I was I got you. Yeah. He was like, I will sustain you. I will sustain you, like physically, emotionally, mentally, I will sustain you here. And um as the week went on, um, the day after TPR, my mother came to babysit the kids and she was like, You guys need to get out of the house. Like you guys need, you guys need to, you need to breathe. And we got in the car and we didn't know how to feed ourselves. Like we were like all week long.

SPEAKER_06 17:26

We were like, ah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

And we drove in circles. Like we could not pick a restaurant. We could not literally drove in circles for the first 30 minutes. And then um we just we we walked into this Thai restaurant that um was like the fourth restaurant that we parked at. Um, we had been inside a sushi restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Like, this isn't it.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

And Brad ordered an appetizer, like he sat down and he was trying to like feed me. He ordered this appetizer, and I stood up and I walked out of the restaurant because I could not like my brain was not functioning at all. I was in complete and utter just total freeze.

SPEAKER_04 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Um, and I was staring at the menu and I couldn't figure out I love sushi.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

You know your order. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Um, and we left, we go to this Thai restaurant, and people from our church are sitting in that restaurant.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

And we talk to them, they encourage us. We go sit at our table, they get up to to leave, they say goodbye. Um we're like, okay, we'll see you on Sunday. And they were like, you know, we're we've been praying for you all week, but whatever, all of that stuff. Okay, so good seeing you. I'm so glad. It felt like a gift that they were there, it felt like a gift for our souls that they were there. Um, we finish our meal, the server comes up, and she's like, Yeah, there's no check. They had paid.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

And it was that moment was like um that moment was when my brain snapped back on. Like I had been sustained that entire week until I didn't need it anymore. And then by the time we left that dinner, my nervous system was back in line. Wow, yeah. It was it was a part where it's like there's so many times in this journey that you feel so alone. There's so many times that you feel like stealing. You're just stealing. And then there's times like that where you're just such a crystal clear reminder that you're literally never alone. Yeah. Never in the hard, in the good, in the mediocre, in the chaos. Yeah. Like you're never alone. So anyhow, okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

So then we enter this ambiguous time that is a wasteland between this is a literal wasteland between termination of parental rights and adoption. And in that time, the children are wards of the state.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

They are they have no parents, they are officially wards of the state. I think that was one of the hardest things for me to wrap my brain around.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

They cannot have elective surgeries, we learned, with our baby who needed who needed a circumcision, but could not get it because he had no parents. And I'm like, I am here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Yeah.

ards Of The State Limbo

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Did it matter that you had been his only parent? His only mom. Right. Um, so that was an interesting thing, like just fun fact, when they're words of the state, because the judge, there's like typically in foster care, when they're in foster care, the judge can sign off on, you know, a surgery or whatever. Um, but when they are if it's an elective surgery, as that is, they cannot, because I couldn't sign it, the judge wouldn't sign it. Like that is something that I learned. But he needed tubes, and that was a need. And so that he could get. Yeah. It was weird. But yeah, that you're in this like time of like, well, I don't really know what's next. I think even when I now that I've walked it, I'm like, I'm not really even sure how that all played out or like how I could have done that better. I I'm not sure. I'm sure exactly the same way. Nobody really is not like, okay, step one, step two, now this is what exactly what happened. You sort of just again, like you're just sort of like waiting. Okay, what do you need from me next? I'll give it to you. And then you wait. And then and ours, there was an appeal filed initially or attempted to be filed. And so we sort of waited on that. Um and so that was just a lot it was just a lot of waiting for us. And then it felt like, oh, things are moving really fast. And there was like, well, there's more waiting and um so it it really is just sort of a wasteland. That's really good. Yeah, it feels like a wasteland. Yeah, we have still parenting and loving these kids.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

30 days for a potential application to be submitted by a family member that wasn't ever submitted. Okay, awesome. And um and then it was like, okay, you're you're up, submit your stuff. And we did, and they got a like we got a home study, and then nothing.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, you just don't hear anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Yeah. Ours was over a year we waited. It was 13 months. Well, I don't know the official day that TPR was actually signed and like filed and all of that, but it was a year that it took post TPR to adoption day. That's a long time. And I'd we already had them for three years. Oh, that's a lie. That's a lie. You're already two years.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Renny for two years.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Mm-hmm. Inside, you know, almost 18 months. Yeah, pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

And in the meantime, so what this practically is, is like family pictures? Yes. Yeah, right. Do I hang them on my wall? Do I do I get um do I print out these? Yeah, you know, you have these beautiful, um, can I talk about this? Sure, yeah. Okay. You have these beautiful, like, um wooden printed canvas, uh whatever it is, like canvas. Yeah, but they're large and they're of of each individual kid, and you kind of have them lined up and it's there's it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

I forgot I texted you about this, like before TPR, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like do I they're on sale. Do I buy pictures for the kids like they're ours forever, or do I wait? And my soul couldn't make the decision. I had to wait. I had to buy them later because I couldn't until I knew that they were officially going to be ours, I couldn't make that. Because if I had bought them and then they were not ours for forever, that would have been devastating. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Yeah. It's in in our space, we had to like um in the it wasn't we weren't at TPR yet, but we were ahead of there. We had to buy a car and we had to buy a house. And let me tell you the difference between buying a car for eight people or four people and buying a house for eight people or four people.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah. Those two things big difference, double. Exactly double. You doubled your family. Yeah, yeah, right.

aking Family Decisions Under Uncertainty

SPEAKER_03 24:57

And it's because in the like, I mean, just I remember around the car, like, do I buy a car that can seat eight people, but could also drive two people if like we didn't adopt all of these kids, but could seat them in the event of an emergency.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

All the things you process, but is not like because I'm not gonna get a suburban for a family of four. Right. I mean, that people do, yeah, right, but I don't, it's not like a neat, yeah, right, right? Um, no, we Brad was driving a Nissan Sintra. Yeah, this was replacing a Nissan Sintra.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, like it's a big difference, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

These decisions. I think that I mean, you yeah, it's a crazy time.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

It's how do you make how you're making these family decisions, big and small, with complete uncertainty about the future.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

And well, if that's not foster care right there, I don't know what it is. Right. I don't have all the information, but we're gonna go. We're gonna we're gonna keep stepping forward. Yeah. Trusting that it's all gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

I saw this sign that says it's it was in the Philadelphia airport, and it said, um, life unfolds exactly as it's meant to. Something like that. And I just looked at it and I was like, is that true? I think some people would say that it's true, but I was sitting there like, I think that's a good thought. But I don't think that thought when I have to make a decision like about being locked into a future, locked into a financial decision that I don't know if my future like lines up with it. Um I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, but but in that space where you know that you're gonna be the answer, that you've said yes, but forever is not actually here yet. Can you talk a little bit about what that feels like specifically on a day when behaviors are through the roof, you're teenage we both both of us have kids in high school and in diapers.

SPEAKER_04 27:25

Yeah. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

In high school and daycare. Right. Right. And you know that you're resetting the clock. Right. Like you know that in foster care, if there's a behavior happening in your home, this is foster care. Essentially temporary, yeah. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I can deal with this for yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Absolutely, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

I don't have to, I don't have to make you like make you. I wish you could see what I quotes.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I don't have to like this isn't my forever that I'm gonna be handling the repercussions of how it plays out. Thank you for putting words to that for me. I don't mean to take over, but no, for sure takeover. No, exactly. Right? You have this you have this mindset in foster care that's like, this is temporary. This is for the season. You know, I can handle this for this season. We can do anything for this season. Yeah. But then you're like, oh, I'm holding this for forever. This is something I'm gonna, this is gonna change. What is this gonna look like in five years or in 10 years when you're a teenager or when, you know, I'm I'm care, I'm carrying the repercussions of how we handle this.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

What do those mind games feel like for you?

hen Temporary Parenting Turns Permanent

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Like mind games. Um yeah, it's a it's an interesting shift that you don't really realize is going to shift because in foster care you parent as you parent all of your kids. You really do, uh-huh. But also you don't because of that. Because it is this temporary thing. So it's a really tricky thing. And then, and then all of a sudden, like, oh wait, no, this is gonna be your your forever um, the hard, the good, the bad, the ugly. Um I think that um dependency on Jesus, like for me, like, all right, you're you got me into this. I know you're seeing me through it. Like, you're here for all this mess and this nonsense that's happening. So don't leave me now.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

Um I literally have that tattooed on my arm.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Literally have it tattooed on my arm.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Like, I mean, that is that is, I think, the how that feels is um, okay, we're in this for forever. And but there's so much beauty that can come and that does come at just the right time, those sweet moments um that remind you. Um, and sometimes they're few and far between. But, you know, I think for me, it's seen my biological kids really help me and um remind me very often with the way that they handle things or they look at things, helps me shift in my hard moments. Um, because they see the beauty. I mean, the heart is hard, but it's like fleeting. And many of my kids have been in foster care for forever, so they've been dealing with the hard and like they don't even I don't know, the hard, like they don't even blink an eye at the hard. I don't know. It's so silly.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Like for two of them, it's just their entire life.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Yeah, their whole, yeah, right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Their entire life they've been in the mix of foster care. And so they you they don't know how to define life without it. Right, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yeah. So I think that, but they they like the hard is the crazy is just the crazy. Like, I don't know. I that sounds really flippant. I don't mean it flippantly, but like they can see the sweet and the wonderful and still they love so easily. And for me, my brain goes to in five years and ten years, what is this behavior or this issue going to look like? How am I gonna carry this? And and in them, they're like, whatever, she's being crazy. This is hard right now, but like in five minutes, they're playing together and they're happy as clams. And in my head, I'm like, this is transitioning into X, Y, and Z in 10 years, and it's gonna be so difficult, you know? But I can remember, I I can just their perspective helps me, you know, I don't know, see it a little bit differently. Like, whoa, simmer down. You don't know what's gonna happen in five or 10 years. Like, you know, maybe or maybe not. What I what do you say? You say, um, write a different story or tell a different tell yourself a different story. Or what is it? Yeah, write a different ending or something.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

So I'll tell you why I say that is because I walked into my pastor's office after TPR and between between in this wasteland of TPR and adoption.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

And I sat down and I talk, my pastor and I uh talk differently than you and your pastor, probably. Or it would be more accurate to say that I talk differently. And I walked in and I sat down and I said, um, I need to talk. I need to process this out because I feel like I'm about to ruin my life. And um I I need to I need to work this out with somebody that I trust, but you're not allowed to tell me like my treasure is in heaven. I had some very strong language mixed into that. And um, and he said, I won't tell you that. And I was like, okay, great. And and then my next thing was like, I've been in this for too long. I'm adopting four children. It's not when the police get involved. It's or it's not if it's when the police get involved. It's not if I have a kid that has that gets in trouble at school all of the time. It's what kid is going the is this gonna be my life? Like the struggles, and I was like, I I know too much. I've heard too many stories. Like, it's quite possible that Juvie is in the future, like for one of all all of these things.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Like I just statistically, yeah.

rite A Different Ending With Hope

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Statistically, like, and I just sit down and I and I kind of lay it all out, purge all of I just vomit all of these statistics. And he listens beautifully and patiently. And I'm like, and like don't tell me that it's not like I mean, really, truly. I was like, don't, don't tell me that like love and structure is gonna change all of this stuff. I know too much. I've been doing this for too long, I've been fostering for too long. I am not jaded. I do not no, no, no, no, I am jaded. I do not have rose-colored glasses on anymore. I am not naive to the yes that I am saying.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

And he sat there for a second and there was this pause, and he was like, Rebecca, you are a visionary. You you are looking into the future. It is your gifting. Like, this is how you you're building hate. Like you use this well in all of your life, and it's working against you right now.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

And I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

I like I You've got my attention. You have my attention.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

And he said, write a different ending.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Write a different story. Yeah. Like if you're gonna look into the future, write it well. Write it well. Do it with hope.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Do a future that's good. Talk about like the healing that can happen because Jesus is involved in this. Right. And I'm like, I looked at this man as if I had never heard this as a revelation ever in my life. It was. And it and it maintains like what you needed in that moment, yeah. It's not just what I needed in the moment, it's what I've needed in every moment since. Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:00

In every moment since that um I can get lost, lost in the what have I what? Yeah, what have I done? Like, cause it can be too much, right? It's not I wrote this like blog post, I don't know, maybe a year ago. There was some kind of like canned food drive at school, and the kids had to bring in four cans for whatever for their class.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

But it's not four cans.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

That's four times.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

It's 24. It's 24 cans. Yeah. Like all these other it's not one kid driving because of the ages of my kids. When we hit teenage years.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Yeah. Oh my gosh. One after the other.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

And then like senior year, all those fees.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

I have a four years in a row.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Four years in a row. Four years in a row. And like a kid in college, while all of this like a big deal. Yeah. This is the way that my the way that our ages line up. Oh my, you can't help but but to think about it. And then you take a breath and you're like, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

That's a why steal today's joy with tomorrow's worries.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

Jesus is like, be here with me. Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Don't think about it.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

But also just come back to the present.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

You're you don't have to worry about four teenagers all at the same time, right now. Yeah. You we're here. Yeah. And I'm like, if we could get four kids out of diapers right now. That'd be really excellent. Yeah. Stacey.

unknown 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Hey, just think the money that you're spending on diapers, it'll just go to car insurance. Like it's just just gonna stay the same. Right? It'll be fine.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

But in the middle, in that, in that middle ground, you're looking at the future, you're writing a like you're looking at permanence, you know it's you. And it's weighty. It's very because you can still get out.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Before you can there's still an eject button.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

Yeah. Oh, up until I my kids are incredible. Like I love, I yeah, I'm so thankful for my bio kids, but my kids that we adopted. They are incredible. I had no doubt that they were ours. Right. Zero in my mind. With that said, it still plays with you. And and and you know, I don't know, call it spiritual warfare, call it just broken world, call it just fleshly sin. Like you still like things happen up to adoption, like in this time of you're like, oh no, is this a bad choice? Are you making a bad choice? Or I make it like, you know, you're at you added four. I added two to my already four. Like you're adding these kids. This is gonna substantially make my life more difficult.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Even if they didn't have any trauma or whatever, like it's two more kids. And so you're like, is this wrong? Like you're you're questioning it without questioning it. You know, like I was questioning it, is this right? Is this right? But not actually like enough that I'm gonna say like no to it, you know. But things arise, behaviors happen, um, and and you start, the hard shows up. And that's when you're I think that the Lord is like, keep being faithful, keep keep being faithful. I'm I'm from the beginning, you I talked to you the day we said yes to our kids, actually, in foster care, because we took two, and that felt really crazy to say yes to. And you're like, Can you say yes to two? And I'm like, I yeah, I guess I can say yes to two, you know, and we did, and it has played out, and now we have two a little bit different, but um, but I think that he wants us to be faithful and in this day, yeah, and then tomorrow do it again, whatever tomorrow looks like. And so in that wasteland of waiting for adoption, whatever that season looks like, because every case looks different. You had a monkey wrench thrown in, like ours was really long, whatever it looks like, like showing up and being faithful. The crazy moments happen and the trauma makes you go, whoa, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Like keep keeping you had a year. We had a year of that. We did not have a year of that. We had ours was just a handful of months, um March to July. But then at the end, it was like, oh wait, tomorrow you're gonna five days from now, you're gonna adopt these kids. And it's like, oh, okay, uh I was gonna be out of town.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Yeah, right. I actually had something that day. Literally, I guess I'll adopt four kids.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Yeah, I was literally like, uh, we're supposed to be in Minnesota in next week. They're like, not anymore.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

No, cancel that.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Not anymore, Jack. Yeah, I think you're gonna be here. Um that's not entirely fair. Our lawyer did say, like, well, we can ask for a different date. And I felt like I have to look at my kids one day, and I have to give them an honest uh replay of the stories that they were not old enough to carry to carry at the time. Yeah. And I knew that if I had to look at my kids one day and say, I allowed you to be in foster care for one day more, yeah. Then again, I'm gonna cry again. Like, if I I could not allow them to be in foster care for one day more than their story needed. And it it that couldn't be on me. And so there's no um it was it was I hated canceling that trip. I wanted it was a wedding that we were going to. Yeah, um, and I wanted to be at that wedding. Uh but I wanted more to be able to look at my kids one day and say, the second that I could get you out of the system, I got you out of the system.

SPEAKER_04 43:02

Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah.

egret, Shame, And The Lost Exit Door

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Um talking, I was like you saying that the you know the story of Corey Tinboom or whatever. I don't know, like where like the suitcase is too heavy that it like I give my kids the suitcase that they can carry at the time. And I think about that, like with me and the Lord, like I don't know what the future holds. I don't know what each day looks like, but like we don't know what it's how it's gonna unfold for our kids. Um, and I think that's by design, by design, like if, you know, like would I have said yes if I had known what it was gonna look like?

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Maybe or maybe not, you know, like um, but I can tell you that I was in a room full of foster and adoptive women recently and um on Saturday night they gave us candles and like we were supposed to hold up candles, like if the the leader was gonna say this thing and then if we it resonated with us, then we held up our candle or not held up our candle, right? And um one of her sentences was if I could go back, I would I would make so or it was like sometimes I deeply regret my decision to say yes. Stacy, half of the room's candles went up. Which says nothing other than the feeling is more common because every one of us who put our candle in the air experiences shame around that emotion. Yeah, right. That thought. Every one of every one of the women in the room experiences shame around that very human emotion to wish that life was easier than it is.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

We don't want hard. Yeah, we don't want the chaos, we don't want that, but like that's what Jesus did for us. He jumped into the mess of our life, he jumped into the chaos and brought peace, redemption.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Yeah, but we are not Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah, we are not Jesus, sorry, but we have him. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Doesn't diminish it by any means, doesn't diminish or make it go anyway, but to watch it honestly, that was one of the most honest moments of the entire weekend for me. It was because they were doing it in anonymity and also not hoping that somebody else raised their candy.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

I don't want to be this only the only candidate, yeah, right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Um but the fact I mean, literally half the room, there were 1,300 women in that room and 1,300 moms. Yeah. And for half of them to do it, I was like, this that that moment was so holy, not because we raised our candles for something that was good. But because we were willing to say, maybe I'm not alone. Maybe maybe somebody else also struggles with this. And like um I it's just my like my again, it's like one of those moments when you when your heart breaks not just for yourself but for the person that's that's around you and you're like this the shame that's wrapped into this.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:23

Because once you the next time you go to court you go to court to stand in front of a judge.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Yeah and say forever. Forever and ever and you'res their mine.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Yeah and you remove the door right like foster care there's no escaping at that point there's no foster care has this beautiful shiny door this back door that you can open at any time you can hit the red button. Yeah this is hard I'm gonna slip right out you can eject like it is that and I think that as a group of people foster moms, foster parents, we underestimate what's going to happen inside of us when that eject button is taken away when it's like this is forever. This behavior in front of you there's no guarantee that it's going away there's no guarantee that as an adult your adopted child like there's no guarantee that as an adult your adopted child is going to want anything to do with your family after years and years of pouring yourself out for for healing and for hope and for future and for all of that stuff. And again write a different story and and hope and all of that stuff but um there's an element I think hot take there's an element of control in foster care in that it's not controllable but there's an element of control because you know you can hit the red button. Right? Like even if you're not going to you know that you're making the choice not to like this is hard and I'm gonna do it and you're waking up and you're making that choice every day and on the other side of adoption it can be like this is hard and I'm stuck there's not an out there's not a door I'm trapped that feeling of being trapped can be jarring. I don't know if you've ever felt like that. Well your adoption is very new.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Yeah it's your adoption is like two months old yeah right we're we're babies we're babies so we'll ask you I'll bring you back on the podcast in a year. I mean my and I mean I I can see that for sure like because you go down the chapital of like I'm carrying the weight of this kid for forever it's different.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

It's like yeah let's talk about that.

ttachment Shifts After Adoption

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah it it's it's hard to put into words like and even with my so we have fostered since my oldest was three. He's 14 now and it is part of who he is and his identity and every one of my family members wants to continue fostering. And I'm like whoa wait a minute I need just a minute to root our family of eight and they're like they've been our siblings in the hospital. Yeah they are ours we are theirs they have been so and even on adoption day my kids didn't want to miss their finals because they were like what in the I don't even understand that they're ours. Like to them it was no different and I'm like well we want to look back and and you not be like sorry Rennie and I wasn't there because I had a you know English final whatever like for the day it changes their live lives for forever right maybe you don't see it that way because they are for you but it's for them we are all here for them. But but I and I think Matt too has begun but I the shift of of changing like I'm parenting you for the season like we talked about earlier to like I am going to be carrying you through all of this for forever I don't even I don't even know how to put words to it like the way the responsibility is different. The responsibility yeah the responsibility it's a good word like the responsibility of it.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

As a mother right and that was very clear to me in foster care that there were two people in my house to whom I was responsible to forever and no matter the number of any of it and we had up to eight kids at a time in our home um to them I was I had to treat them the same and I had to parent them the same but um my responsibility to them was different.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Yeah meet their needs for now.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

For now but but my responsibility and the the access to my heart that they got was different.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Yeah to my dying day I will say that when somebody says I love them as if they are my own I would say to you no you do not because you will put them in a car they will drive away rightfully so right right rightfully so they will go home they will go to their mom and dad you are not their biological mother you can period there there's there you can be a whole lot of your heart there's a whole lot of your heart there is a sliver that says as you have to to protect you because that day may come when those kids go but it's also right and good yeah right yeah right like it's not a bad thing yeah that that we love them as they should be loved yeah and not more and not less.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Yeah right but I am going to put you into a car 19 out of 19 times I put kids into a car and I waved goodbye and I watched them drive away. And I'm not saying it didn't rip my heart out. Yeah I'm not saying that I didn't cry I'm not saying that it wasn't hard but I was able to function afterwards not that weak. Yeah I'm gonna cry emotion I'm gonna cry I'm gonna cry cleaning out their room I'm gonna I'm gonna cry turning it over for the next I'm going to miss them. I'm gonna see pictures of them on my phone yeah two years later and tears are gonna spring to my eyes and I'm like oh my gosh remember when this kid did whatever right but if somebody put Zoe or Slade like we were talking about earlier I would never again be okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:41

That's a that's different that's a different form of love. And so when you adopt and so this is this is reversed for us right like you experienced this for four kids biologically I had never experienced it for four kids. I had only ever experienced it for two kids and then it's like here's four more we still fostered yeah no it was a respite that did us in yeah yeah it was a respite he was 18 months old he came he was the easiest kid we'd had the entire time for six years he was the easiest child that walked into our house and we were out of yeses and it was precisely because of the weight yeah of I there's no more room in my heart for a weekend right with a kid yeah with a kid that's not mine. There's no more there's no more space because it is fully invested invested six in these six for forever right I could foster eight kids yeah right like it's like eight kind of is my max like eight kind of things like seven is a real happy number which sounds crazy yeah but yeah no that's exactly right that's exactly right I think the same that and then that adoption day like you you switch and you're like okay wow forever forever until death do us part baby which I'm like you're mine and I'm yours. Yeah right and we're gonna have to figure this out yeah and and then attachment changes right like because before you had oh my gosh I wish we had started talking about this earlier prior to adoption you had attached as a foster mom and it's like oh now I have to attach as a mom as a mom mom. Yeah I think in this instance like being a navy brat just works against me. Being a navy brat works so well for foster care.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Yeah oh yeah I love you for the season and I move to another place.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Totally and everybody around me is a Navy brat and so it's just you know I mean it's really like I've talked about this in therapy a lot like how being a Navy brat set me up to succeed as a foster mom.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

I think about like that with my bio kids who have fostered like they've loved and said goodbye to many kids over the years. Like did I break you like in regards to attachment like you're happy with change things you know people come and go you know life is too easy.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

Like let's have some chaos and right and so um yeah it really it changes you have to adoption changes attachment and walking through that process after words is um truly it's one of the hardest things I've done as an adult. Yeah granted there's four.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah I feel like it's a little bit different.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

It's totally different it's totally different if there's one are you kidding me right like and I think it's different for everybody and different for every for every depending on the kid or kids you know your what your house and family looks like and totally what your own attachment style is like yeah right what else is going on in your life at the time all the time all of those things the way that all of those things have played out in my particular life is like a lot.

doption Day Realities And Legal Ties

SPEAKER_01 56:17

Whew yeah I I feel so thankful because adoption was never why we got into foster care. Like my husband was adopted adoption was always like maybe yeah like may we're open to that but that's not why we're fostering that is not was not the the goal. Um and so kind of like our family extended family like that was kind of their understanding as well you know like we love these kids that you have in your house and for the season you know yeah for the season. And and here we are like oh no actually we're gonna have six kids you're getting six you're gonna have six grandkids from us. And also like if ever we go out of town there's six there's six and these two are for free you know like and all of you if you want to have us over to your house for dinner it's not just like foster and maybe next month we only have our four again like nope it's eight of us. Yep all the time all the time. All of you who are in our life we have six kids you know um but I feel so thankful the way that our family has been loved and cared for by family and friends and Haven and I mean like to ease the transition not that it I am again I feel like our trans it has not been it has been a very natural progression for us this adoption the weight for me and my soul and my mind I think is a lot like we're talking about processing it but in regards to daily living yeah it's not you know it's not a thing. It was a a non-event I it was a non-event quite literally for some members of you we did make it an event we did it it was a wonderful day like name change day you are Laissant like it was such a beautiful forever day. Except I feel like I feel need people to understand that um the adoption hearing is not what you're gonna think it is. I totally thought it was gonna be a bigger thing. Sorry this is a tangent to what I was just about to say let me finish saying I'm so thankful for all the people in my life that love our kids so so well. Yeah. My biological kids equally with my adoptive adopted kids because I think sometimes the attention can be skewed and the biological kids who do a lot of hard work and a lot of stuff can get forgotten because the foster adopted kids get so much attention. And vice versa it can be they can be you know bio kids can be the focus instead of and I am so thankful that our family is loved and supported and has been carried through so beautifully I'm so thankful for that. But I do feel like in regards to if anybody is about to walk through the adoption don't expect your adoption hearing to be this long drawn out thing. It is not mine was like four minutes and nine seconds it was the fastest thing I've ever experienced in my life we had this whole everyone that I talked to was like you're they're gonna ask you like why you wanted to adopt I don't know if they fit us in in like in between things or because it was on Zoom it was wild. It was like so so fast. I don't I think maybe others take longer but I kind of expected it to be something they should have asked you why you wanted to adopt the kids it was 100 yeah but and the one they asked like do you is that you understand that there is um you're not doing this for monetary something so I mean I wouldn't be like yes actually I'm doing it because kids make me money I'm gonna get rich on children.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

Last night having six kids makes you money is this like is this a comedy podcast now?

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Did we just turn this into a comedy podcast?

SPEAKER_03 59:48

Too many tears an hour last night I was at a function and somebody said something about foster care or he said I said something about like the statistic that 50% of foster homes close their license in the first year and he said well how much money do they get from the state there's not enough money money doesn't fix trauma weird it's hard thought it did I I was like um not not enough money to pay for the gas to take the kids to all of the therapies that they have to go to and he was like oh and I was like yeah it doesn't I mean if you have four kids and they're all in diapers I assure you that money gone yeah yeah it was so fun. Right yeah no and it's not intended to like foster care is not intended to be a job. Yeah so like good I'm glad that they clarified for you that on your adoption I know it just made me chuckle like yep nope not doing it for that yeah and you know they say like um you understand that they have equal rights to your biological children and life and your will and like all of those things and that this is not you cannot undo this. Yeah it's as if you birthed them I think that was one of the most wild things to see. Have you gotten the birth certificates yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

No we're still waiting.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

When you do it says that you birthed them that's weird. It is weird isn't it yeah yep interesting it says it's not like they don't have like a second kind of form like a what they should have if I was solving our system's problems is an adoption form that looks like a birth certificate. Yeah right like child is born this day to this person adopted this day to these people and that you send that like if somebody's like hey give me the birth certificate you send that so that it keeps their story.

dentity Talk And Lightning Round

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

Yeah. Um so really wild Matt, my husband was adopted um and recently in the last couple of years connected with a biological uncle and he was his only living relative biological uncle wanted to have Matt be his um you know like executor whatever left things to Matt um but when his uncle passed away he had cancer he passed away um because Matt had been adopted he was no longer by law this man's nephew and so it was interesting to me that I'm like this is I get it I get it severed his family is his family right um but they had to alert anyone in his biological uncle's family like distant whoever of his death prior to Matt like getting to be even though his he was named in the will like prior to be because he was no longer his nephew but his uncle named him as the executive yeah he named he named it but they still had to alert anyone that was family be it he could have like a random it was just a random a wild thing to me like legally and so I guess what I'm saying is is like the biological family is forever part of your story but like also has no rights has no rights.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

They have no rights no legal rights.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Yeah right which is good and and like and and also when Rennie says to me just yesterday and this is because she's five and she understands she's somebody was saying something about you know when I had so and so and she's like and I she like had my face and she's like and I didn't grow in your tummy I grew in my other mommy's tummy and I'm like you're right and and every time I have this like zap to my soul of like man I hate that that is part of your story. And also I love that you own that and I love that I am your mommy. Like it's this weird it's such a weird thing I don't think that will ever stop because you need to know that she needs to know that she needs to own that that is part of her and then again don't go here but like when you're 18 like what is that going to look like when she's 18 her mom, her dad her or whatever like but again but then I'm so honored that I get to be her mom that shows up every day and I pray that she feels that and knows that and yeah you know yeah I tell my kids they didn't grow in my tummy but they did grow in my heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:39

Yes that's exactly what I said a tummy mom and a heart mom. And that you know they have two and all all of these things. We our kids are starting to ask um two of our kids are starting to to really ask and to really struggle with adoption. I think one of ours has struggled with adoption since the day that it happened since the day that it happened I think from that point forward she was like I liked you when you were a maybe I'm not too sure about a forever like that is yeah but anyhow okay um wrapping up yeah we do lightning round at the end of every gosh so okay um I'm modifying it just a little bit so uh first question 30 seconds oh my gosh bedside table messy or clean messy for sure I have a nebulizer with all the little tubes left there because that's where I sit and do the baby thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I've got my chargers I've got books a lamp maybe a random water bottle only one random water bottle well it could be like the empty bottle that I poured into the cup you know so I'm gonna give it a 65% mess.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Okay. Um what's your favorite way to unwind and unplug?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

I like to lift heavy things. I work out I like doing CrossFit yeah so working out is my I mean slash slothing and watching or listening to a book like just snuggled in my bed. So it's like one one extreme or the other you listen to it in your bed yeah I just want to like lay there and listen to my book with my eyes closed snuggled in a blanket or I like to lift heavy things it's kind of drastically different. I've never done that really uh uh oh I love it if I'm in bed I'm reading it physically oh no I like to listen I might like play a random game on my phone while I do it okay you know so my eyes are doing something but my I can just listen to just listen to it. Um and last question Okay what is bringing you life right now this is gonna sound churchy I don't mean it to sound churchy but I really um whatever's honest I am doing the Bible recap so the Bible in a year with Terry Cobble I've never done it before um and I am so thankful that I'm doing it it brings me joy because I'm I do it first thing in the morning and I again I listen to it. It's like 12 minute reading of the Bible she gives a recap because my reading comprehension is trash. And so especially like Bible reading this isn't like where I'm digging in but this is like taking me through and reminding me that like the story of Joseph like God didn't withhold the hard from him he was there in the hard and he had a plan and and that is so beautiful. And God called Abraham to leave something that was comfortable and go to the unknown and God was there. And so he is just reminding me of that and I'm so thankful that I'm in that.

unknown 1:07:47

Thanks

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

Yeah, I only do things like this for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:51

I love it.