Trust-Based Parenting For Kids From Hard Places with Angela Coston

Your kid is melting down, you are touched out, and the last thing you feel is “connected” yet the relationship is still the path forward. Rebecca Harvin sits down with Angela Coston, founder of For the Sake of One and a TBRI practitioner, to talk about what connection looks like when parenting kids from hard places meets real-life stress, school breaks, IEP meetings, and the long grind of behavior that repeats for years.

We break down Trust-Based Relational Intervention (TBRI) into its three practical pillars: connecting, empowering, and correcting. Angela shares simple connection moves that can change the tone of a day, from five minutes of child-led play to the surprisingly effective “order what they order” moment that signals belonging. Then we get concrete about regulation: hydration, sleep, sensory input, and why protein and complex carbs matter so much when “defiance” is actually a blood sugar crash, especially for kids affected by prenatal substance exposure.

From there, we wrestle with the hard edge of trauma-informed parenting: can’t versus won’t, willful disobedience versus survival behavior, and how to hold high nurture with high structure. You’ll hear scripts for choices, “first then” language, shared power, and consequences that keep agency on the child. We close with the backbone skill that makes all of this sustainable: repair, plus the self-care practices that help parents stay regulated enough to lead.

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Website: www.forthesakeofone.com

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Transcript

Welcome And Meet Angela Coston

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey guys, thanks so much for joining us today on Behind the Curtain. I'm your host, Rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. My guest on the show today is Angela Coston, the founder and executive director of an organization in Tex Arcana, Arkansas, called For the Sake of One. She founded it in 2017, and in September of 2018, Angela was awarded the Congressional Angels in Adoption Award and PEN in Washington, DC. She's on the advisory committee of promoting the adoption of minority children in Texas. She and her husband, Samuel, have three sons. She's learned both professionally and personally what a difference trauma-informed care can make and is passionate about sharing TBRI with the public. She became a practitioner in 2020 and is here today to talk to us about connection and why it matters so deeply in relationship. This is a conversation that I am delighted to have, particularly today, because of how I feel towards my children. So, Angela, thank you so much for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yeah. Um, okay, TBRI. When you suggested it as a topic for today, I was like, oh, this is gonna be fun because I am on day four of my kids at home from break after having spring break, and I do not feel connected. I feel overconnected. Underconnected, over connected. I feel touched out. Touched out. That's what I was just thinking, that word. Yeah, yeah. So give us a um, if you would, like an overview of what TBRI is, like high 30,000 feet, and then let's dig into

What TBRI Is And Why It Works

SPEAKER_00 1:53

it. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:54

So TBRI is trust-based, trust-based relational intervention. It was created by Dr. Purvis and Cross at Texas Christian University in Texas. And um it Dr. Purvis was doing her um doctoral program and was researching how to heart for children from hard places and was researching just ways to help kids from hard places. Um, and so she did a camp and used these principles, the connecting, empowering, and correcting principles um with the kids. And the thing I love about it so much is that they researched it and found proof through chemical changes in the kids' bodies and in their brains that the tactics, techniques, techniques is a better word, but the techniques had worked. Um, and so it's not some of the stuff sounds kind of like crazy mumbo jumbo, but it's they took urine samples and blood samples and tested cortisol levels and found that the kids' levels improved over time.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, that cortisol samples. I feel like side note that they should give foster and adoptive parents uh cortisol tests before they get into it, and then see what it is like a year into it, and then like five years into it. You know what I mean? Like it would be probably go up and down. Yeah, it would be it's something that I think about all the time, how fascinating it would be if I like knew what my cortisol levels were. But I think it's really great that you pointed out that there's there is academic research behind this, and that um as a tool, this really does help. And you said connecting, empowering, and can and correcting principles. Can you tell us about those?

SPEAKER_05 3:47

Yes. Um, have you been through the full TBRI caregiver training?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Not as a um practitioner. I've done some deep dives in it. I've done the Empowered to Connect conference, which is now something about hope.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

It is hope for the journey, I think.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Hope for the journey. That's right. Um I years ago had a good friend here in Jacksonville that was very um, she brought she brought this to Jacksonville. And so um, and was you know, is connected in it back then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:21

Okay. Um so connecting, well, so the whole training, we went, my husband and I went through the training to become like TBRI trained. It was a six-day caregiver training. And it's where like you see the videos where our son was at the camp also with a buddy, and um, he was learning how to like regulate his body with his buddy also, while my husband and I were learning the TBRI principles. Um, and we had been foster parents for a while, and so we and we were both educators at that time. Um, we had been educators for years, like we're educated people. So we thought we knew what we were doing. Um, and we had been, I think when we went through it, we had been foster parents for about six years. Um, and so we had done a bunch of training, but it just blew our minds and like opened our world to all of the different things. So the training starts with going through what trauma is, what it does to the brain actually, and how it physically changes the way the brain works. And so that's just really great just to get a framework for understanding that. And I when I train, because we do trainings twice a year now. Um, and when I do the trainings, we talk about that it is for people who deal with children from hard places, but I think it's for people who deal with humans because everyone has some kind of trauma. Um, and it can just open your eyes to um what other people are dealing with. So that isn't how it is connecting, empowering, and correcting. But so after going through that um trauma overview and what it does to the brain, it goes into how to help a child um heal from that trauma through connecting principles, which is um, I mean, just what it sounds like connecting through behaviors, connecting through liking the same kinds of things that they do, letting the child know that you actually like them as a human, um, which we don't all the time, but we can fake it sometimes when we don't. Um, and then empowering, which is helping them learn how to regulate their blood sugar and their hydration and external factors and internal factors like sensory systems. We talk about sensory processing disorder. Um, and then correcting. Some people tell me, I just want to come to the correcting day because they want to fix all the behaviors, but correcting doesn't work if you haven't done the connecting and the empowering. So it's how to proactively correct behaviors and then different things you can do to correct behaviors when they actually happen, because you can't prevent everything.

Connection On The Hard Days

SPEAKER_00 7:10

So going back to connecting when you were like letting the kid know that we like them, and then you stop for just a second and you're like, I mean, we don't always that is I think that first of all, I think that that's something that not enough people have the freedom to say out loud. That um, yeah, it doesn't always feel like like it doesn't always feel like love. And so, but we can still connect. And so for me, I I want you to give like one example of how to do this on a hard day. If you're like, yeah, I actually don't even want to see you right now.

SPEAKER_05 7:55

Um here's another thing I love about TBRI that we learned when we went through the training. Um, they said that if you parent in the TBRI style, 30% of the time your kids will be okay. And so it's not like you're gonna be perfect all the time. No one can do it perfectly. Um but um so some things you can do. One thing that we found um is ordering the same thing as your kid at a restaurant, um, which is a simple thing. Um, we used to have this was a story from probably five years ago. Um, but we would go to eat at nukes, which is like a um I love nukes. Awesome. Uh you never know what they have in different places in the country. So nukes. Um at this time they had free children's meals with the purchase of an adult meal. So we went all the time. Um, and one of my kids would get like they would get two of my kids would get pizza because they really liked the cheese pizza. One would get probably macaroni and cheese, and then my husband and I would get a sandwich because we would try to be healthy. Um, and the one who got macaroni and cheese was just like, that's just stupid. Pizza's stupid, sandwiches are stupid. Why are y'all eating pizza and sandwiches? And was just mad every time. Um, and so one time we started, we after really after I'd been preparing for a TBRI training, I was like, let's just see. And he went, we went and my two ordered pizzas, he ordered macaroni and cheese. I ordered my sandwich with a side of macaroni and cheese. Um, and he didn't complain because he just wanted to know that he wasn't different from everyone else. He wanted someone to be the same as him. And it just like there, and that's the thing I love about TBRI. There are just little things that you can change that create a big difference in their brains.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

That is fascinating and something that I wouldn't even necessarily think of. And I think it's because I think of it in almost in the opposite. Like my brain thinks about it like um, I want to teach you that it's okay to do something that's different than me, because you don't, I don't need you to order the same thing that I order, because I want you to order what you want to order, where I have kids that are like, I'll be just like you, and then that will please you. And I'm like, no, actually, that feels suffocating to me.

SPEAKER_05 10:27

Yeah, I feel that. But when their brains are changed so much by the trauma, they just they yeah so many times just have that negative self-thought about themselves. And so they that's just one way you can connect with them, show them you see them, you see what they like, and what they like is good.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah. What's another um what's another way that you could connect with kids?

One On One Time That Sticks

SPEAKER_05 10:55

Um, like just getting down on the floor and playing with them. Um, if they are playing with a toy car, play with a toy car with them for a small time. So like if it's a day like you're talking about today where you were touched and feeled out, maybe just give them five minutes. Be like, hey, I'm gonna set this five-minute timer and I'm gonna, what do you want to play? We'll play whatever you, I mean, within reason, we'll play whatever you want to play that we are allowed to play for five minutes. And that gives them the control. Like kids love when you do what they want to do. But as adults, we don't do that most of the time because we're in our adult world. We have like tasks that we have to get done, we have to do the laundry, we have to do the dishes, we have to make the food, and then we have to like try to take care of ourselves because if we don't take care of ourselves, then we'll explode on everyone in the round us. Um, but if you can just set a timer for three minutes, five minutes, however long, 10, 20, whatever, however long you can give them to play with them, give them your undivided attention. And that's another thing we talk about with um connecting is we do an activity called shared stories where we have one person look at them, one person tell a story, and the other person is given the instruction to, which they don't know what the other person has the instruction to do, but they are given the instruction to pay attention at about 50%. Um, and so they're like playing on their phone while they're talking, while the other person is talking, looking all around the room, all of those things. And then we do the activity again where the person pays attention at like 90%. Um, and just like giving that eye contact um and acknowledging what they are saying is huge for connecting with them.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, I I focus a lot on mirroring body language.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah, that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

If I want them to feel connected, or if I'm paying attention to that right then, I will I will think through, am I mirroring them or am I am I asking them to mirror me? Or am I like mirroring them? Which is uh a tiny but significant difference. It is as humans, we mirror each other all the time, right? Like our brains are wired to do this, and so but if I'm always in the dominant position of mirroring, then it's a subconscious, like you bend to me instead of ever bending towards them. Um gosh, I used to do the thing that you were talking about about playing with them. I used to sit at my dining room. I remember this with like this one specific placement that we had years ago. And I've done it, I've done it recently, but years ago, I would sit at my dining room table and I would set a timer. And we had so many kids in the house. And I would just be like I would stay in one place, and the kids would each get 15 minutes, and I would be like at the table for two hours. Like literally, it would be certain nights, and I would go, Okay, here we go. Here, like for however long we needed to as a way to get through the the week or the season, like there would be times when I would go, okay, nothing's getting in front of these behaviors. I need to connect with them.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

Um and we do right now with we have three kids, which isn't a lot compared to a lot of foster adopt families. Um, but one way that we give them specific to make sure each kid gets some time every day is at bedtime. Each kid gets like three to five minutes of snuggle time of undivided attention. And if they if something happens and they don't get that, like they are super upset. Even our 13-year-old um still wants that one-on-one time right before bed.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

That is so sweet. That is not my best time of the day. That is that is not, but what I what I do love to do, um, oh my gosh, we were at an IEP meeting. I was at two different IEP meetings last week for two different kids. And and one of them were trying to figure out how to get them to do writing and reading. Well, all of all of five out of six of my kids, I tried to figure out how to read, which is one of my life's great like question marks because I you and I talk about we talked about reading for like past bedtime.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

So I'm like, I don't understand how my kids don't like to read, but my younger four, it's in all of their IEPs, right? And so we're trying to figure out like what can we motivate this kid with? And always we're trying to like reduce it to like what's what's possible to even do for the first time. Like, we're not gonna ask for an actual whole week of writing or participating in a reading when the teacher asks. If we do three days and we're trying to like, I mean, all of us we're all sitting at the table brainstorming. I'm like, what if I like you had something at school, but it what if I if the actual reward was like if you make it to three days, I will take you to Jeremiah's, which is an ice cream spot here in town. Just this kid and me, and the whole table, like I wish that I had recorded it because the whole table stops and they go, That will get any of your kids to do anything that we ask them to do. And then it's like, oh we were like, one-on-one with you is the price. Like, this is if if any of your kids get one-on-one time with you, we hear the whole school hears about it the next anybody who's coming in contact with them hears about it the next day because with six kids, it's so hard to do one-on-one time, like they get it two on one, or you know what I mean? So one of the ways that we do this is bedtime. So uh one kid will stay up late and it'll be like, do you want to stay up and watch a show for 10 minutes longer or sit beside me on the couch or whatever it is, but I do not the the going, I've always felt so bad about this about myself as a mom, but the going to kids' rooms and like tucking them in and read I had I didn't do this when I just had two kids and they were biologically mine. This is like my worst part of the day. This is my like all I am like my whole brain is just shut off, shut off, shut off, shut off, shut off. Like once we get past about 7 or 7:30, uh-huh, unless I'm at a Mexican restaurant eating chips and queso, my brain is not functioning. Like, I just want to be in bed reading a book at this point.

SPEAKER_05 18:17

Well, here's what I do to reward myself. I do we divide and conquer in my house. So I usually snuggle the younger two, and my husband snuggles the older. Granted, we're not all it doesn't always work that way, but that's the goal. So once I have snuggled the older two, the younger two, um, I take a book upstairs with me when I'm tucking them in and I sit in the hallway and read until they fall asleep. And so it's my reading time.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

And usually I don't leave when they fall asleep. Usually I'm up there reading for a long time. I didn't know that they were asleep. Actually, it may have taken them an hour to fall asleep last night.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

It's wild how brains work sometimes. I would not, I would just be like, I'm gone. I'm in my imaginary world with my imaginary friends.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Right, but you reward yourself for doing that tuck in Tom.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

I mean, it is it's it's so like there have been times, Angela, I where where I have like yelled at kids, whatever, and I just am like, God, I am so glad that there are no like video cameras in my house. Like it's it is the worst part of my like mothering day. Anyhow, let's keep going before I confess way way too much.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

But while you were talking about that, I was thinking about how like how great it is, but how heavy it also is that like your kid's greatest reward is time with you. Yeah, like that is that is why it's so important to to take care of yourself, ourselves. Because like the fact that you are the reward, that's a heavy weight to carry.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Yeah, it is. It is because there's a lot of times there's not as much of you. Well, there's not as much of me, but all things on the table. Like, I'm driving to the beach. Okay, so we've had this like we came up with this. How do we have like a staycation for these five days without really spending money? And because we live so close to the beach, it's like, let's go to a different beach than we normally go to every day, and we'll just do a beach a day for five days. This was not a well thought out plan. Don't get too excited about that.

SPEAKER_05 20:54

I was gonna say that sounds amazing.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I'm nowhere near a beach. It sounds amazing, it sounds fantastic, which is why it was an idea that I my oldest and I came up with because we can come up with great ideas. The practicality behind this idea requires maybe a little bit. No, you know what? That horse crap. Like we, I like, I like actually prepared. Like, I'm gonna I'm going to give myself the credit that is due for this one because I bought snacks ahead of time for the, and we're gonna get to empowering in just a second. We can talk about some car snacks. Yeah. Talk about like, hey, I don't want to be running around after the day every single day. Like, we're gonna have like, here's the plan, here's the routine, here's the beaches that we're gonna do. This is the time that it's gonna take from all of the days for it. Here's our snacks, and we're gonna have just these snacks can only be used at the beach or in the car, going to the beach or coming home from the beach or like whatever, right? Great. Um under wildly underestimated the amount of car time in the city in which you live, which is a different level of annoyance for everybody involved. And the dysregulation that that, like I said, two of my kids have been experiencing in this now five-day like we just were like we just have not been on routine. And so now like the dysregulation abounds. Yeah. I say all of that to say this that when I am driving to the beach today, I am on repeat in my head telling myself, do not say the words out loud, just stay away from me. Like whatever you do at the beach, I don't care. Just don't be around me. There's a great big beautiful beach right there. Just don't, except for it was like super cold, which means it was 70 degrees.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

And it was super cold, and I'm in Texas.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Very windy. It is on the beach. It was like we were like, everybody was underneath towels, like sitting on the beach with like all of this wind. It was not, it was gray, it was cloudy, and we were like, why are we here? And we left 20 minutes later. But going back to the original point of like what a heavy responsibility it is to know that you yourself are the reward when you yourself just want to say, I need your body to not be near mine or anywhere in the vicinity of mine right now. Like I also know that those words, if they were said out loud, cut to the core.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

And so it's it is like a double-edged sword. Um, but but it is nice, it is also, I mean, my my kid came home the very next day and was like, I did my writing, put that, put that, and they're not a self-sabotager, and we can get to kids with self-sabotage. Like I have those two, but this particular child is not a self-sabotager, and so if their goal is three, they will get to three, and they'll be like, take me right to Jeremiah's. Yeah, it's just you, like they will they care deeply about that. So, okay, next up is empowering, and I love when you started talking about it originally, you were like learning how to regulate their blood sugar. So we can start right there because I just mentioned car snacks. So and this is one of my like favorite things of all of TBRI, of all the goodness that it does. The question that Daryl, is it Daryl? Darren Darren, yes, Darren asks when he says, um, what does this baby need? What does this baby need right now? Even if you're talking about a 15-year-old or a 16-year-old just going, what does this baby need? Do they have? Have they eaten? So let's go into that.

SPEAKER_05 25:15

Yeah. So one thing that I also learned through becoming a practitioner is that kids who have been exposed to any kind of substance in utero, their glucose receptors in their brain are damaged, um, which means that they are even more unable to regulate their own blood sugar. So they crash even harder. So, with that, having them eat like healthy protein snacks is what's super important. Complex carbohydrates, not just any snacks in the car. Like if you keep them supplied with nerd clusters in the car, that is not doing diddly squat. Um, keeping them supplied with like protein bars or beef jerky or snack crackers, um, something that's complex carbs or protein that will stick with their body for longer will keep them from crashing. Because a lot of times um it looks like a meltdown, but really it's just hanger, hangry. Hunger or hangry, whichever you would like to say. Um, and my 13-year-old is as tall as me and like full on through puberty. And we recently

Empowering With Snacks Sleep And Sensory

SPEAKER_05 26:28

have had to force him to sit at the table and finish his meal because he also is very like active, doesn't like to stay in one place at a time. But we've had to be like, dude, you're not allowed to get up until you finish because your manute is so bad, you are so hungry and you just don't even know it.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Isn't that wild? Like, isn't it so wild? We I have a kid that sensory input sensory-wise is not very aware of senses at all, and so would play straight through eating, would do like would doesn't have the same cues, like doesn't receive the same cues that you and I receive. So hard. So food is one of the hardest things for us. Yeah, food is one of food is like a constant battle, and it's a constant, like so. I go through rounds of caring about it enough for it to be a battle, and then also just being like, Can I get this to you via a supplement?

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

I was just about to say, so last time I um did this training, I had a a guy who was a college professor, but he was just taking the training to want to know more information. Um, and he was like, I was talking about like choices and giving kids choices between like, do you want to eat broccoli or cauliflower? Um, just which is part of the correcting principles choices. Um, but in talking about nutrition, he was like, Well, you know, um, at some point, like kids just have to learn to just to get all of the nutrients, they have to eat foods. And I was like, okay, but do you take a vitamin supplement? Like it's okay to take a vitamin supplement if you're not getting all of the nutrients you need because that is not worth the battle all the time. One of my children is insanely picky um and really eats like PBJ and corndogs and pizza. They're like his staples. Um, but he takes vitamins every single day. And I try to he will drink smoothies, so I try to get a smoothie in him at least once a week that has like protein and spinach and strawberries, and he'll drink it blended up, but not eat it.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Yeah, texture is a huge thing.

SPEAKER_05 28:58

With him, I think it's just a control thing. Um because he is he's a middle child, and a lot of his control, he's got a lot of PTSD and all of that. So it's it's a control thing for him.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Isn't that interesting as a parent and a professional, right? You and I both kind of operate in these dual um these dual hats. We have it in our home, we do it in our professional lives, and the motivation. I don't know if this matters for you, but for me, motivation or my perceived motivation behind certain behaviors absolutely influences the way that I show up to the table about it. Definitely, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:54

I show up differently for each one of my kids because I know what drives them and why they are doing what they're doing. Most of the time, but not always. I think I think it's good in that like every child is different. And so meeting them where they are is helpful. But at the same time, like they um in the connect correcting principles talk about willful disobedience versus survival behavior. Um, and looking at a behavior, whether is it willful disobedience, they're doing the wrong thing on purpose, or is it a survival trauma behavior? And if you don't know which one it is, respond like it's a survival behavior because that won't hurt anything.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Um What does it say about willful disobedience?

SPEAKER_05 31:03

What do you mean? What does it say? Willfully so willful disobedience is where like a child is choosing not to do something and you get in a power struggle with them. Um there are kids who like you have to shut them down. My youngest is we had him after we went through, well, like right after we went through TBRI, the whole training. And he is the most securely attached child because we knew exactly what we were doing with him. Not that we were perfect, but he is very securely attached. He is also insanely stubborn and insanely strong-willed. Um, and so there are times where we just have to let him throw a fit and we're not gonna give in to him. It's not like we're gonna talk through it with him. It's not like sometimes I have to tell Samuel, get yourself, because it is it is him 100% in a tiny human. Um and I don't even know how to respond to it because one of our other children is me, and I have to get him sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Um But don't you find that so hard to actually parent yourself? My second is very similar to me, uh-huh, but with a secure attachment. So so I see the same things that I internally would have wanted to do if I didn't know exactly what our youngest is doing to my husband is the same thing. Yes, where it's like um if I didn't know that the relationship would still be there on the other side of me rebelling against whatever rule was arbitrarily placed on on my life. Like I as an adult as a grown adult, I hate an arbitrary rule. Like, if you're gonna tell me to do something, have a reason behind it. Otherwise, I'm gonna need you to keep your like to keep your rule over there. Or I just will literally not even regard it at all. My second is absol and I think that this is like a second born tendency. Like I there are there are books written about this personality trait that we both have, and I happen to love it. I happen to love the fact that I'm okay to breaking a couple rules, like I think it's a good trait to have. Parenting it, it's not fun. Not fun, like, but at the same time, it's like I it's like I it fills me with wonder, is what I will say. And like I'm constantly fascinated by my second child, and we also go toe to toe a lot, like uh, because and it's and I know like I it's because I'm it's because of the parts of me that I maybe wrestle with that are in him that anyhow.

SPEAKER_05 33:54

Yep, yep. I I feel that yeah, parenting is an easy thing. I just gotta tell you this one little funny story about my second who is like me in a 10-year-old boy. Um, but he the other

Cant Versus Wont In Trauma Brains

SPEAKER_05 34:10

day we were coming, we were gonna get food after church, and um, he's my picky eater, and he really wanted Chipotle, and we were gonna go to Raising Canes, and he doesn't like anything at Raising Canes, and they're two restaurants that are right across the street from each other. And he was like, Mom, can we just you guys get raising canes and then we'll drive across the street to get Chipotle for me? And I was like, dude, first of all, I don't want to do that, and second of all, like that's a really hard intersection to get across all the way across, so I'm not gonna do it. Um, and so we're in the Raising Canes drive-thru, and he was just sitting there quietly for a little bit, and he said, Mom, when has hard ever stopped you? I was like, excuse you, excuse you, little child. And he said, You do hard things all the time. You've run a marathon, you do things that for the sake of one. Like, when has hard ever stopped you? And I had to just tell him, you know what? Sometimes you just have to listen to no from your parents today.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Turns out today it's slapping me. Right. Turns out this is it. I can do some really big hard things, but the small hard things, right? That is that is like 100% me, Angela. That is 100% me. I can do big hard things so far past what what is normal or like standard operating procedure for hard in a in a life. The small hard thing, you want two doors to open up into each other in my house. I'm gonna take one of them off the wall. Like, I can't, I can't. I I you need me to to make an appointment at a doctor's office. I that just that feels impossible today.

SPEAKER_05 36:00

Like, I've been supposed to make myself a dentist appointment for probably about four months now. And yeah, I just haven't.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I mean, that went for like two and a half years for me. I finally was like, I should probably make a dentist appointment. I mean, it is like the smallest things running to Target can feel impossible to my brain because it's like, oh, that's so whatever. And at this, and in the same day, it's like, no, I took this phone call with this person, walked this person through a crisis, did this thing over here, did a two-hour IEP. Like, I mean, you just name it, and it's like, that's that's a normal day. That doesn't feel right, nothing that I just said felt hard at all.

SPEAKER_05 36:41

But and I think that that's some of what TBRI like training, understanding the trauma is like you and I have the knowledge that our kids are just tiny adults, and so like when we are like, I just can't do it, but it's we understand. But a lot of adults, and maybe some of your listeners, I don't know, see that as willful disobedience. Yeah, see that as well, why have you not just made a dentist appointment? Like, that's super easy. That's what you have to do to be obedient. That would maybe help your tooth to stop hurting. Why don't you just do it now?

SPEAKER_00 37:17

But in our it took a tooth hurting tremendously for me to actually make the dental, like it took it's been hurting just a little bit, and so I'm still good for now. The consequence of not doing I was like, I think this tooth might fall out, and I need to be a grown up about this. I didn't even have a cavity, though I had been gritting my teeth so much that I had like I had done some other kind of damage. Anyhow, yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_05 37:44

But like that mindset, that's what the willful disobedience is, where we look at it as like in looking at it through like the lens of when we were in COVID shutdown, that we were so stressed, so overwhelmed that we literally could not do one more thing. That's how their trauma brains are in the survival mode.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

Yeah. Yeah. So this is this is so interesting to me because this is where um TBRI and I have always um where I've butted heads with TBRI in the episode, which um caveat, I love it as a tool. I love it as a like connection first principle, like connection mindset. I love, love, love it in the empowering um aspects of it in in teaching kids. Like there's a hundred and one things about TBRI that I have always loved. And this is where I'm like, uh it's like it like, and I'm sure that that is like a very typical response to it. I'm I'm sure that I don't have that it's like in the the in the connection zone, right? Of knowing the difference between or interpreting something as willful disobedience versus can't, like the can't versus need of um and I think it's so important. I think I think one of the things that TBRI does so well is understanding the can'ts. Not can't versus need, can't versus won'ts, right? Got it. Okay. Like I think that TBRI does such a good job of understanding the can'ts in the sense of like what you were literally what you were just talking about. Like their brain is so overwhelmed. And so we see this, I see this with my kids, and I'm just thinking through different placements that we have. I'm thinking about the kids that I have right now. I'm thinking about any time that we're like, I'm trying to get them to kind of make a leap developmentally or behaviorally, or we're picking this one behavior aspect, and I'm gonna kind of like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna keep like uh like chipping away at this one behavior aspect until we kind of get it resolved to an extent. Yeah. Um TBRI has been the thing that has helped me go, so you don't ask them for anything else that day. Like, and I don't even know if that's like a TBRI principle or if I just pulled that from these like empowered to connect and all of all of the different trainings that I've attended. I've going like, if I'm asking them, for instance, to sit at the table and eat dinner, but I know that for their body, that that's actually I'm asking them for a marathon. Yeah. I'm not gonna ask them to to remember to put their toys away or to remember to like I'm gonna come up alongside of them for every other thing that they need. I'm gonna come up alongside them, but I'm asking them to sit at the table, but I'm gonna come up, I'm gonna like actually really come up alongside them in huge ways for the other remaining portions of the day because I'm gonna ask them to run this marathon and it's gonna take every single thing that they have to do it. Um then tomorrow I'm gonna ask them for a marathon for that same marathon plus a quarter inch. And then the next day I'm gonna ask them for that same marathon plus uh like a half inch, right? You know what I mean? Like it's just like I'm gonna ask for more and more and more, and I'm gonna scaffold them and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be right alongside them doing it. I'm gonna be very aware of what I'm asking them to do.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

And then there are those days where something happens or it's a traumaversary, or it's a day like Easter when they're sugared up and you have to regress. And it's not so much regression, it's meeting them where they are. Um so like you've pushed those inches and they can do it, but then their body is overloaded with sugar. And so just because they did it yesterday, they may not be able to go that marathon and half inch. They may have to go back to just the marathon.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Right. And that is where I struggle as frustrating. Yeah, even just as like not even like with TBRI, but just as a uh getting ahead of the game, I think for myself, like saying out loud today, going, Oh, they just did spring break. Yeah, and they haven't had really a normal week of school since spring break, and now they're on another five day out of school, and these are kids who like structure and routine. Oh, and like saying it out loud, like for me, a whole lot of times I have to get out from my kids to be able to go, what is happening here? Like, why are we doing why did my kid try to crawl in the three inches between my body and the wall instead of walk through the rest of the hallway? Because I'm gonna tell you right now, I did not respond to that well at all. Oh, just probably they're probably just trying to get that sensory input and squeeze. They can go get that sensory input somewhere else, Angela, because I was not, I was decidedly not okay when it was happening, like even before that moment that it happened, literally in the car on the way back from the beach or something. I said, I need you guys to understand, like to start paying attention and understanding, like when mom is not okay modifying your behavior in a way that actually helps you. Like, which is like that is a that's a stupid thing to say. Like we say stupid things, we always say stupid things. All the time. That was just a me saying it. Like maybe, maybe this will stick for some of my ridiculously smart children that are in this car. Maybe they will go, oh huh. Because my securely attached kids understand relationship. Like that's just relationship, right? Like mom, mom is in her room crying because the dog is not healthy right now. And so like maybe maybe don't be an idiot. I don't know. Maybe maybe. Sorry. I do not call my children idiots. But sometimes sometimes they are.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Sometimes we all are.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Sometimes we all are. And that is something that is what I think TBRI does really well. Is it because hey, you know, some days like you only have 60% to give, like we were just talking about. So it's the moments for me when it's like, no, you can, you're choosing not to. You have everything that you need in order to be able to do this, and you're choosing not to, that I go, oh, we're gonna go toe-to-toe, except where I'm more mature. Then I no, no, no. I mean, I have learned in the eight years of that's that's a year one Rebecca version and even a year two Rebecca version. That is not a year eight Rebecca version. That is like Rebecca does not go toe-to-toe about everything anymore because Rebecca doesn't care enough, right? Right. But there are times when you're just like, no, I know that you can do this again, sitting at the table, and I'm thinking about some very specific kids. I'm not asking you to do something hard. And to me, for me, there's like a there's a question at play in those moments of who was in charge.

SPEAKER_05 46:21

And I think that's when we first learned all of the TDRI stuff, um, and early in our parenting journey, we were, well, I mean me specifically, we were way too high, like the kids controlled the house. Um, it was way too much like nurture, nurture, nurture, nurture, not nearly enough structure. And even after going through the TBRI caregiver training, they talk all about um giving kids yeses and responding to their needs and finding the need behind the behavior. And I went so far into that that we kind of created a little tyrant.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Um you're talking about the thing, like I'm like, how do I say this nicely about TBRI?

SPEAKER_05 47:13

Oh, yeah. And and I'll tell you, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 47:19

Yeah. Um, I and I am, I mean, when I train, like you said, I am a mom living it and a professional. So I bring real life experience to it. Um, and I will tell people straight. Like a lot of people look at it and they see that it is just permissive parenting. And it can be if you do not do all of the things and hold up the structure just as highly as the nurture. And that's where I failed. And a lot of people just see that as like giving them, giving them, meeting all of their needs, meeting all of their needs. But when they do meet those, I mean, when their needs are met and they are still choosing to do the wrong thing. One phrase that we learned from a counselor we have had is if you choose to do this, you are choosing this consequence. Yes, it puts it on them 100%. When you know they're capable, if you choose to stand up and run around the room while we're eating dinner, then you will choose to go to your room and wait and eat by yourself later.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yes. Okay. This is the like, this is it is it is this. Um and that still goes along with TBRI.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

That's not against TBRI.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Yes. TBRI done well has structure. Yes. I think my thing is like so many times, and and in the circles that I have run in, it's nurture, nurture, nurture, nurture structure. Nurture, nurture, nurture, nurture, structure. And I'm like, hey, that doesn't, that actually is not the way that kids do best. Kids do best in high nurture, high structure. Absolutely. Like that is the um high nurture, high structure. High like that is the goal, right? Like I want you to know that I love you and I see you and I care about you. Even on my hard days, even on our hard days, even on your hard days, right? Like that, and and I say it all like that for a reason because I'm like, there are days where it is literally it's just me. It's just a 43-year-old perimenopausal with six kids and a full-time job. And like sometimes nobody has to even breathe for me to not be doing okay that day. Right. Just what's inside of my body. Yep. Sometimes I could do every single thing right, quote unquote. And my kid could just be having an off day. Yep. Sometimes the stars align, and that's both of us. Super fun days those days. Super fun. But do you know that I love you and I'm for you? And that I'm, you know, like all of those things.

SPEAKER_05 50:18

And I think coming back and apologizing when those things happen is huge. And a lot of adults don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Repair is the number one. Yes. Like, if any time that I'm ever talking to anybody about any parenting, I am like, we're gonna start with repair. We're gonna start with the understanding that repair is so necessary to attachment. That actually it's the basis of secure attachment is we know how to come back to

High Nurture With High Structure

SPEAKER_00 50:47

each other when there has been a rupture, right? So, but it's that like it's the connection I'm always looking for. I'm always looking at the relationship that I want 10 years from now or 20 years from now. Right. Like I that's I'm kind of like genetically wired that way. So I'm looking at like, well, how do I want my six-year-old to respond when they're 16? Do I want them to be able to come to me with the hard thing? Right. Right. I want, I don't know if we were recording or not when I said that one of my kids painted the Adirondack chair in the backyard. But um we had to work online for so like I need you to be able, even if there's a consequence on the back end of it, I need you to be able to come talk to me. When something has happened, I need you to be frightened. Lying is like such a huge issue in in communities like ours. But I need to have access, even if there's a consequence. But the structure behind it, like the high nurture, high structure is it is so vital. And I love that you, I love the way that you set this up. And and like the talking about choices, when you choose this, like I my youngest loves to pin the consequence on me. Right. Like, you did this, you made me. You, and I'm like, no, no, no. I don't like the consequence any more than you like the consequence, bud. Exactly. However, like your behavior necessitates this this thing, right? Like, um, so if you're choosing it, when you choose to do that, you are choosing this consequence. It's the same language, we're using the same language, and it's it is uh going back to empowering, right? It's like this interconnected thing to me of I'm teaching you that you have agency. Yep. You can make a different choice, right? All of your needs have been met, right? You can make a different choice, and and you're not so going into like, how do you teach the correction principle? How do you teach, like, how do you teach parents who are looking for anything that could possibly help them? Like, and I'm sure they come with that kind of I I use that desperation on purpose. Like, yeah, how do you teach? Um, how do you teach that?

SPEAKER_05 53:19

Um, well, so in the correcting, the first things are proactive. So teaching to give kids choices and where there's two right choices, not a right choice and a wrong choice, but helping them be autonomous humans. Um, one of my friends um who I love dearly was like, Yeah, I give my kids choices. I tell them you can eat this or you can get a spank. And I'm like, well, that's that's not giving them a choice because that's manipulating. Um but do you want to eat this first or this first? Those are two choices. Um, and when you do that, you start to see little changes and you can start to think about um, well, I think with with parents, when they are in crisis, what I always tell them um is you have to take care of you first. I don't care what is going on with the kids, you have to take care of you first, or you won't make it. You are not in your thinking brain, you are not in your regulated self, and a dysregulated adult can never regulate a dysregulated child. Um that's what Dr. Bruce Perry said in What Happened to You. It's one of my favorite books. Um, but so I always tell them, like, what are you doing for you? Are you in counseling? Are you taking care of your um hydration and food needs and um getting enough sleep? What's going on with you? First and foremost, you have to do that to take care of yourself. Then once you're because so many of them, they're just they're so stressed out that they're not taking care of themselves at all. Um, and I've been there. I'm not saying just them, I've been in that situation too. But then we can have a not saying, but a logical conversation about what can be done to help kids behavior change. Um, and I am I am a TBRI practitioner and we are talking about TBRI, but I also have a lot of different resources that I pull from. So we, my son, one of well, a couple of my children have been in counseling. So I've pulled things from different counselors, like that if you choose this, then you're choosing this. Um, one of my children is in ABA therapy, um, the applied behavior analysis. Um, and we have learned things like first, then first you take your medicine, then you can have my attention, whatever it is. And that avoids a head-on battle so much of the time. Um, if you can just leave them and say, first you have to do this, then that can happen. Um that has changed a lot of our interactions. Um and just try with that ABA looking for what the need is behind the behavior, which is the same as TBRI, um, looking for the need behind the behavior, um, then you can get ahead of it because even if it is willful disobedience, there's a need behind that behavior. If it's say it is a child not wanting, like my child who I said was super picky and it's a control thing,

Choices Negotiation And The IDEAL Response

SPEAKER_05 56:31

that's that's the motivation behind the behavior. The need behind his behavior is he wants to feel in control. And so with that, we are kind of at a point right now where we're like, if you need to be in control of your food, that's fine. If that's what you feel like makes you feel in control and safe and settled in this house, that's okay. But that is still the need behind the behavior. And so we are not looking at getting into a power struggle over that control, if all of that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

It 100% makes sense. And I want to like momentarily pause and just say out loud for the record that it is okay to share control with your children in. Yes, it is. In fact, it is not like my way or the highway as a healthy, that's not a healthy operating system for a family. It is a parent very sure of where of their role in the family, very sure that they are in fact the parent and the person in front of them is in fact the child, and that at the end of the day, the parent is the responsible one for the family and and the decision maker and all of this stuff. But within that dynamic, there is so much control that can be shared. And there's so much where you can say, yeah, sure. If that's what you like, that's what you when we talk about choices. It's like the red plate or the blue plate, the green cup or the yellow cup. Do you want this or do you want that? And there, and there are some days when that feels easy as the adult, and there are some days when that does not feel easy as the adult. When you're like, I already got the cup out of the cupboard. I'm not giving you a choice. You know what I mean? Like where it's just like, no, I didn't make two vegetables tonight, I just made one. Right.

SPEAKER_05 58:23

Well, and my role with food is I will make one dinner.

unknown 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:27

If you want to eat it, you can eat it. If you don't want to eat it, you can either not eat or you can make yourself something different. But I'm making only one meal.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

And clean up your own mess.

SPEAKER_05 58:37

Exactly. That takes it.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yeah, yeah. Um, I just I think it's really um, I think it's an overlooked or underreported aspect of healthy parenting is learning how to share control and teaching agency and teaching like um that they matter. I mean, really, you're communicating like, hey, this need, this need matters here, right? And um, and I see you, and I think that your need is important. And maybe you meet your need, or maybe I meet your need. Like, who knows? But yeah, I think that that's really good. And that's also go ahead. Nope, you go.

SPEAKER_05 59:31

Okay. I was gonna say that's more of the correcting principle, is like the proactive strategies are choices, compromises, shared power, and negotiation. Um, so the choices that we talked about already, compromises and negotiation go together, because um, sometimes if you say, like, do you want the red cup or the blue cup? A kid will be like, I really don't want the red cup or the blue cup. And if they can say with respect, not I don't want either of those cups, they're stupid cups. I want this um green cup, but I really don't want the blue or the yellow cup. Can I please have the red cup with respect? Sure, absolutely. You negotiated your needs because if you don't, then you get adults who have no idea how to make choices. And there are adults who have no idea how to make choices. And we want to teach them in our comfort zone of the house that there are ways, safe ways that they can make choices. Um, and then the shared power is another one of those proactive things. But then there's also um they use the ideal response to respond to behavior, which is the not reactive, responsive um part of the correcting principles. And that is where it should be immediate, direct, eye-level. Good job. Eye level. Um, what's the A?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Appropriate.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:56

Appropriate and leveled at the behavior, not the child. Good job. Um and so we're not like using an elephant gun to kill a mosquito. We're not lecturing, we are just doing short things to change behavior when actually behaviors do occur.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Can we can we acknowledge that when a kid has been in your home for, I don't know, let's say five and a half years, is the same today as it was five and a half years ago. That it feels like Angela, an elephant gun is needed. Yeah. That that complicates things. It does. Right? Like, because you're just you're not, I find myself so often, or I have found, I've been in seasons, uh, we're in actually like a aside from this five days of dysregulation, we're in actually like a really good season with the kids. But I have found myself in other seasons, and I'm sure you have, and I'm sure that the people that you work with have, and of where it's like the compounded effect of this over time makes it, it's like I'm not responding to this one moment of disrespect. I'm responding to the the years in front of it or the the every ask is man.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:31

And that's where it's it's not easy, but you have to remember, we have to remember, I have to remember that it's not personal. The behaviors that they have are not personal, they are not personally attacking you for five years. Their brain is struggling for five years. Um, and that is not easy to think about, especially when the behavior is coming directed at you, at me. It happens if my kid cusses me out. I take that pretty personally. Um, but it's not personal, it's just his brain being overwhelmed. Yes, we're gonna address it. Yes, we're gonna change those behaviors, yes, we are working on things. But one thing that is helpful is to be able to look back not at where we were yesterday, but where we were a year ago today and see the growth. I'm sure, like in those five and a half years, maybe that one thing is not changed, but I'm sure there's other things that I was I was really using that as an example because it's not I'm not experiencing it presently.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:39

It's this like when I think about when you were saying like that it's so hard. I'm like, I in my brain was like, yeah, this is actually the hard work of adoption. This is actually it is and there's a there's a couple other things probably that I would put into that category, but this is actually it is where it's like the the the long game and the long like that that some things like as you're getting deeper and deeper and deeper into um the layers and healing and and agency and all of that stuff, you see the same behavior at deeper and deeper levels or at different like iterations of it, and you're and you have to come back. And so just full circle here. This is also why it's so important to be taking care of yourself. Yes. So that your nervous system is regulated

The Long Game Repair And Triggers

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

and your like I can point at any season where it's like, oh, I didn't show up very well. I can almost guarantee you I also had not taken care of myself very well that day.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:53

Yep. You hadn't had any five-hour readings, Breeze.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

I mean, let's be honest, sometimes those don't actually make me better parents. Sometimes a kid comes and interrupts me on like when I'm 85% of the way done with the book. I just am like, I don't know why you what why why are we I'm reading?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:15

Why did you take me away from my book, friends?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

I'm like I'm like in the like actual like the meat of the Frodo just got to mortar. What are you talking about? Anyhow, but I think that it's this like understanding that so much of parenting s begins and ends actually inside of us. And it is it is so that's one of the hard jobs too, is going, okay, it's it is in me. And if I'm triggered by this one I use disrespect, I don't actually care about disrespect as much as other people do. And I think I'm maybe a more disrespectful person behind the scenes than Or I just don't care about it. Or possibly it's that my dad, um of all of the things, like my dad, you could say anything to. Like he would, it was really hard for him to get his like hackles up about something that like he he always had this very open communication when there was communication. I don't I don't want to oversell this, but like you could have a different opinion, you could have a different, like whatever. And as long as you were mostly respectful with how you said it, he didn't care. And I think that that's kind of like where disrespect you could not, anyhow. I'm let me back all the way out of this. I use disrespect because it is so often the thing that people get so triggered by. It's a huge one. Disrespect, lying, manipulation, stealing. Those if I if I could name four behaviors that parents really come and they just go, My kid, and like I mean, just yeah. And always I'm like, what's the thing inside of you that's triggered by the what's the thing inside of me? Manipulation is mine. What's the thing inside of me that is so triggered by manipulation? And that when we deal with that, actually we have that that's that's part of parenting is what is inside of me? What inside of me labels, and this is hypothetical, I do not label everything willful disobedience, but some parents do, yeah. Right? And so it's like, why is it because my needs, I didn't feel like my needs were ever valid in a like, I mean, whatever the thing is, it requires a lot of times therapists or a really good um friend that you can sit with and say, like, hey, can you ask me some questions? I mean, now we even have like chat GPT, right? So you could go like, hey, can you give me a couple like self-reflective questions around the topic of manipulation? Let's say I have no idea why I'm saying any of this. I don't care. Where you like Chat GPT gives you 10 and you sit with a friend and you and you verbally, I'm an external processor, so I would need a friend to externally process this with my husband, internal processor, he would sit with those questions and and figure it out.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:37

Anyhow one thing I thought of when you were talking a minute ago about how we are we are the driving force behind everything and we need to take care of ourselves. I feel it needs to be said that if you've messed up on this in the past, it's okay. We've all messed up in the past. When you know better, you do better. But if if you in the past have not been a regulated parent and have not, you can't go back and change the past. I I did a lot of messed up stuff in parenting when I was struggling with postpartum depression or stressful situations in the home that I am not proud of. And I can't go back and change those things, but I can acknowledge it, take care of myself, take care of my kids, and do better in the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

I love that. I love that. Okay, at the end of every episode, we do a lightning round question. Um, but I kind of want to do a little bit different today. I um first, I'm just gonna ask two questions. The first one is what do you do to take care of yourself? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:50

Um, do you want to answer now or wait?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Yep, go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:53

Okay. To take care of myself, a couple of things. I I love running. I'm a runner. Um, I have been messing, not messing, but struggling with a bunch of injuries recently. So that's been hard and really annoying. Um, but I get up early and work out with other ladies. I am an extrovert people person, and so I need other people. Um so one thing I do is I have a group of friends who live kind of across the country and we marco polo each other back and forth all the time. Um just getting it out. Um, so my big things are getting with other people, running and reading.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:34

Okay. And then my second question for Lightning Round art is what is bringing you joy right now?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

The weather is really good right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

Um, we moved into a house in November that um has a pool and we would never have gotten a pool, but we bought this house that already had a pool. So right now I have been trying to figure out how to get my water not green. I think it's going to bring me joy. But we also just being able to look back. I've talked to a couple of people recently that I hadn't connected with in a while. Um, and I've kind of shared with them how our past year was insane. Um, and just being able to look at how God has brought us through all of the things to where we are now that life is not perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:34

Life is far, far from perfect, but it's so much better than it was this time last year.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

Yeah. Yeah. I saw the Easter picture that you posted on Facebook. And um you know what's so wild is that um what you were like, yeah, last year's picture perfectly represents last year, actually. The difference of these two. And I was laughing so hard because you and I both have pictures like that from last year, where this one moment so perfectly captures what the year had been that you're like, huh, there it is in picture form, and it's all right there on the screen. We tried to do family pictures last year. Literally, it got canceled like four separate times. And on the fourth day, the fourth time that it was, it was gonna rain. And we were like, what do we do? Do we cancel? We're talking to our photographer who used to be our licensing specialist and has like um more of a front row seat to our life. And I said, No, we're gonna do it. Like, it's actually kind of perfect that it's gonna rain. Like, if the sky was

Self Care Joy And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:12:59

sunny and we were like we looked picture perfect, it would not reflect this year. And instead, it's gonna be like cloudy and drizzling rain, and our makeup is gonna run, and our hair is gonna get messed up, and it will actually be the thing that makes sense. The other thing though that I could not have possibly planned is that you would what you would see is a family who like kept showing up through like and I didn't know to I didn't know that that was gonna be a thing that I was gonna see in the pictures. You know what I mean? Like when you're like when you put those pictures side by side for you for Easter and you're like last year's shows it, but look at this family that kept showing up. Yeah, look at this family that like did the hard things, mom who does all of the hard things, and just kept showing up. And so because they kept showing up, here's this Easter picture of this year. Yep, like that looks totally different, that has like smiling faces and connected, like the whole energy of the picture is totally different because you kept showing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

Yep, proud of you. Thanks. Thanks for being on.

unknown 1:14:19

Yeah.