A Conversation about Attachment for Adoptive Parents with Stacey Cales, LCSW

A lot of adoptive and foster parents are handed an impossible goal: your family should look seamless, your child should feel “forever” the moment adoption is finalized, and your bond should eventually feel just like biology. When that does not happen, it can leave you spiraling between overcontrol and despair. Rebecca Harvin sits down with Stacy Cales, LCSW, a former foster parent, adoptive mom, and licensed clinical social worker known in Jacksonville for helping families untangle attachment challenges, and we name the pressure out loud.

We talk about Stacye’s “beloved aunt or uncle” benchmark and why it can be the missing permission slip for exhausted parents. Lowering the bar is not lowering the love. It is removing the intensity that keeps everyone braced for failure. From there, we dig into why adoption day can feel like a letdown or even a threat, how our own attachment histories shape what feels urgent, and why we often parent our kids to survive the childhood we had. If you have ever thought, “Why is this still hard after all these years?” you are going to feel seen.

You will also get practical tools you can use today: the calm storytelling voice, small consequences you can actually enforce, the power of repair, and why boundaries are a core ingredient of healthy attachment. We even touch on prenatal and early childhood brain wiring so you can stop blaming yourself for what is really nervous system math.

If you are raising a child through foster care or adoption and you want more peace at home, listen through and then share this with a parent who needs it. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us what belief about attachment you are ready to release.

If you'd like to know more about the work that Stacey does, or if you're a Florida resident looking for an attachment therapist, you can find more at her website here: https://floridaattachment.org/

We know that foster care and adoption present unique challenges for your marriage, so we created this Same Page Checklist as a conversation starter for you and your spouse. You can download it for free on our website at https://www.havenretreatsinc.org/couples-free-resources-1. Enjoy!

Registration is now open for our annual Bio Kid Retreat weekend June 26-28 at North Florida Christian Camp. Go to www.havenretreatsinc.org for more information.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Attachment Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey guys, thanks so much for joining me today on Behind the Curtain. I'm your host, Rebecca Harvin, and this is where we have honest conversations about foster care and adoption. My guest today is a former foster parent, current adoptive mom, who, after experiencing the struggles of attachment in her own home, went back to grad school in order to become a licensed clinical social worker. And today is the go-to name in Jacksonville for families that are struggling with attachment. I knew her name long before I ever met her in person. And I, in fact, sent people to her if they were struggling with attachment long before I ever met her. That is how strong her reputation is in this town. She is a wealth of knowledge, compassion, and hope. Today I'm talking to my friend, the director of therapeutic services for Haven Retreats, and a constant voice of reason and wisdom in my life, Stacy Kales. At the beginning of every show, I almost always tell you, I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did having it. And I mean that truly, and I mean it about today's episode. But more than that, I hope that something in this episode sparks something inside of you and that you use it to better engage with your children in your own home. I hope that you use it to think about your experience and how that is shaping attachment in your own home. You will see the moment that this happens for me. And I want you to know that since this moment, I have held this peace. I've held this thought, and I have been watching how I'm doing this in my own home. In fact, I did it this morning, and I'm thinking about it right now as I'm talking to you again. That is what I want for you from this conversation. I want you to ingest it and hold it. Hold a microscope up or a or a magnifying glass up in your own world, in your own family, in your relationship with your kids. And I want you to move that dial 1% closer to health because that is what is possible from a conversation like this today. Okay. With that, I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did recording it.

The Beloved Aunt Attachment Goal

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Um, Stacey. Hi, thank you. It has been a long time coming that we've been trying to get this recorded for a while. Um, but I asked you to come today because I am so fascinated by this topic of attachment. And specifically, there's this thing that you said years ago that absolutely revolutionized um how I approach attachment with foster and adoptive kids, specifically adopted, my adopted kids. Do you want to guess what it is before I say it, or do you want to, do you want me to just say it? Just say it. Okay. Um, it is when you said that the level of attachment that you could hope for that would be a really good success is a beloved aunt or uncle. I had never heard a therapist say that before, and that felt like freedom to me. How how did you come to that? Let's just start right there. Like, I mean, we're just gonna already people don't agree with whatever.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah, I I I would say it's controversial to hear something like that. Yeah. Because when you adopt a child, that's not the goal. The goal is this is my child. That's the fact. And then the goal is this child is going to be indistinguishable from my relationship with any of my other children. And this child is going to weave their way into our family, and you're just not even going to notice that they were adopted or not. And so then when we have that as a goal, and that I'm an adopted parent too. So that was my goal. I ended I ended up going into my own adoptive journey very similarly to any client I've worked with or most adopted parents, where I wasn't already a therapist doing attachment work. I I had my master's in social work, but I didn't know the things I know now about attachment. So I just kind of assumed I'm gonna adopt a child, maybe it's a bumpy few years because of their trauma and life changes, but then things will settle in and we'll be a normal family. Um and I since, you know, have experienced my own path, but at the same time, have done a lot of research and a lot of learning and education about attachment. And like you said, it it felt like freedom to hear it a different way because we're holding ourselves to this standard that's really um different. It's a really different experience on both ends for the adoptees as well, where we're we're meshing together people that already have these histories and backgrounds, and now we're trying to find a way to blend it. I think I I would look at it more like it's more like a blended family, the way that it goes in, you know, because this in really maybe even differently at times, because some kids were adopted right at birth. And I've seen some families struggle with this attachment piece. The genetics play a bigger role than I think a lot of people want to accept, because that's something that we absolutely can't change. And so from the parent standpoint, we're holding ourselves to this standard that as the adult, I'm the one in charge of how this relationship is going to go. And if I can just do it this way, or if my kid can just cooperate, or if this or if that, then we can have this perfectly woven family where my child is indistinguishable, and that that can turn into some ugly feelings.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

It can, it does turn into some ugly, like the resentment that builds that I have experienced of like, why can't this just be this thing that I want? Right.

Adoption Court Promises And Pressure

SPEAKER_01 6:46

And I think, you know, to a degree, it's like, well, we're set up a little bit like this at the courtroom. I mean, at in the court in front of the judge, I am making a commitment and a and a legal promise that I will merge these kids into my family and I will raise them as my own. Their birth certificate changes to say that I birthed them. Right. Right. And like, I mean, the judge goes through that whole list of like, in your will, they will be treated the same. And if something happens, if you and your husband divorce, like he goes through or she goes through that whole list and you say yes to it all.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

And then it's it's such a good point about how that stage is already set at court where an adult adoptee is there, there's there's a lot of people that are really against the way the court kind of does this, where it's like we're clearing away this whole history. Yeah, none of that exists anymore. Now you get this brand new birth certificate. Because my daughter was adopted from California, their their birth certificates are a little bit different. And so her new birth certificate literally says who my obstetrician was when I gave birth to my adopted daughter. And um, and so it's like it's just really funny. But yes, like in the courtroom, there's that piece of we're wiping away all the history, and now this kid is a part of your family, yeah, forget all of their history, and they need to be indistinguishable.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

And that's not fair to anybody, literally anybody, any part of it. And it in the public eye, there's this perception, and not even just in the public eye, also in the system, right? As soon as adoption, as soon as that gavel hits, services disappear.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yes. And we also hear families talk about adoption day being this milestone that they look forward to, and that is an expectation that I've heard some people in the clinical world or in the child protective world talk about, well, at that adoption day, that kid is going to now feel the stability and the forever family, and like that there's supposed to be some kind of change that registers for them there, where things suddenly settle down because now we've finalized the adoption. And that's like telling a couple to expect some change once you're married. Like that's a road to disaster.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

That or like, do you remember when you were a kid when you would have a birthday and you would wake up and you'd be like, today I'm gonna feel 10. Right. Like you'd go to sleep at nine and you'd be like, I wonder what 10 feels like. And then you wake up and you're like, oh, it feels exactly like nine.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Womp womp.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

There's a letdown. Right. I would say though, that there is a letdown. But I would say that there's also this other complication that happens.

When Adoption Makes You Feel Stuck

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Like for me, I experienced for the first time feeling stuck. But and I think one of my kids also felt that. Like adoption actually revved up the engines instead of calmed them down.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Okay. Like there's a fear here because now our trajectory is forever. Instead of, well, let's just make it through the next year.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah. And especially if your path is like foster care into adoption, which is adoption is so interesting because people come to it in all different kinds of ways, and every kind of adoption ends up being so different.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Right. And there have been many times where I have said out loud, I think I fostered for too long. Like I was so used to that quick turnaround that my brain was like, if there's a hard behavior, that's fine. I can do a hard behavior for two months or three months or six months. I can even do this hard behavior for one year. Right. It will not be forever.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Because you're choosing, you're accepting this comes with this child, and I'm choosing to have it for a time, this behavior in my in my experience. But with adoption, it's like, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't want to sign up for hard experiences all the time. Yeah, this doesn't go away. Right. Like this doesn't, it has the shock to my system that has happened post-adoption has been um so I think like, yes, that and I don't know exactly where I came up with this idea of like changing the relationship that people imagine and and the feelings that are with it. But um it has been really helpful to a lot of people because it just lowers that bar where it's like, okay, like this doesn't have to feel well. Let me back that up to say when we're a parent, we bring in our own attachment history and we have all these expectations of what I needed when I was a child and what my parents should have done or didn't do, or what my parents did do that I want to emulate or don't want to emulate, and we put pressure on ourselves to be a parent. We don't do that with the other kind of relationship roles. We don't say, you know, some people do based on their experiences, but it's not wired into us of how to be a great aunt. And so it just comes naturally. We just figure it out. If you are a good aunt, if you are a good idea. Well, and you just figure it out as you go along and and you read the situation and and you're able to kind of take it as it comes with the expectations and the pressure aren't there.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

And so and it's also it doesn't come with that piece that you felt of feeling stuck either. Where it's like, okay, uh ultimately my brother or my sister will take care of what's going on with this kiddo. And while that's different with kids that we adopt, like this child is under my care. Legally, I am their parent. At the same time, I just feel like it takes away that piece of I don't have to control this. And so that piece can feel like freedom, where it's like, I don't have to control this child's outcome. It it cuts off that attachment wiring that we have a little bit of that pressure piece that we're what we're bringing to the table. And that makes it easier for us to move through attaching to our child.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, I have found the most surprising thing and quite honestly, the most beneficial thing in this journey that we've been on has been um all of my crap that comes to the surface, facing it and like releasing it and work like working through it, like truly processing it, has done more for my relationship with my kids than my kids actually changing or um coming to terms with adoption. Like they're on they're on their own journey and they're younger, right? But it's it is that like um I had a lot of stuff inside of my own heart, a lot of like if I do this perfectly, I can control the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah. And I'm smiling over here as you say all of that, because I'm obviously such a nerd about attachment. Right. But one of the things that I love about it is when we do our own self-work, the trickle-down effect on our kids is so phenomenal. It's it's huge.

Parenting To Survive Your Childhood

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Because our attachment pattern is our brain's blueprint for how we handle relationships and how we manage stress. And all of that is formed in just the first few years of life, and it has a disproportionate effect. Those those early years have a disproportionate effect on us for the rest of our lives. This is where it can confuse some people who have children who've experienced early trauma, where there's this thought of, but my kid has lived with me for 10 years now. So why hasn't, you know, their level of felt safety changed? Why don't they feel safe now? They've lived in my home for 10 years. All of that happened before they were two. Because the early childhood experiences, including prenatal experiences, have a massively disproportionate effect on us because that's when our brain was developing. So our brain is wiring during all of that time. And the hard part for us as parents is that we were literally wired to survive to parent. We were literally wired to parent our kids to survive the childhood that we had. Oh, hold on, hold on, say this again.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yes. We are wired to parent our children to survive the childhood that we had.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

That's right. So this is where a lot of us as parents have had those moments where our kid rolls our their eyes at us or they do something, and what immediately becomes urgent in us is that ooh, if I would have done that as a kid, my mom would have.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And it feels so urgent. But what we haven't disconnected that we need to in our self-work is a lot of us are giving our kids a very different childhood than our parents gave us. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Oh my gosh, my brain is like exploding. The so in that moment, like let's look at that moment, what's subconsciously happening, if I'm hearing this right, is like your kid looks at you, rolls your eyes with disrespect. And if that is a thing that is would have got you punished as a kid, slapped, yes, popped, I'm sent to your room, yelled at.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

I'm standing there looking at my kid doing this to me, and my subconscious is imagining my child is in my childhood home doing this, and that was dangerous. And now I'm coming, I'm getting upset with my child out of protection. So, like, I need to pre like subconsciously, I need to protect my daughter from my mom. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Is like your brain is making it.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

How dangerous that is, you cannot behave that way. Oh, it's coming from a place of love. Yeah, sure. But it's just not necessary. You're creating a different environment. Your child doesn't need to survive that environment. It doesn't mean that we don't discipline our children, but it means we don't need that urgent feeling in there.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

So dismantling those synapses, so those neural connections or whatever the correct word is. Um when you kind of like take those apart and you look at them and then you rewire your own stuff, that dismantles the urgency.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Right. It takes a lot of self-work to figure out all those pieces are because what all of those pieces are, because a lot of us don't even notice.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, not until it's shown to us by our kids.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Right? Like not until it pops up. And a lot of times not until it pops up a lot of times where you And it feels justified inside of us. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

And and so it feels like, yeah, of course I don't want my kid rolling their eyes at me.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Or like, of yeah, of course I'm yelling. I need my kid to get into the car. Right. Don't they understand that this like in the morning we get into the car in a straight line? Can we not like Yes?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yes. And then and then we inadvertently become the parent that we said, I didn't want to be like that. And when you have a kid who has a lot of behavioral issues, that resentment can build because this kid is making me be the parent that I didn't want to be.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Oh, Stacy, you just landed on one of the you landed on literally what I tell people about when I start Haven is I was becoming a mom that I didn't like and that I didn't want to be, and I needed therapy. It was like the thing that I knew was like, yeah, I had done so much work at the beginning. Have I ever told you that the day that I found out I was pregnant? So I have this like belief that the answer to anything can be found in a book. Like no matter what, no matter what you are facing, if you read enough books, you will figure this out. And so I get the call that I'm pregnant. We were not like planning on trying to have a kid. And um Brad and I go out to dinner at PF Chang's, and across the street is Barnes and Noble. And I was like, I have to get a book. I don't know how to do this. And so we're standing there, and Brad's pulling out all of these like pregnancy books. Like, oh, did you want like what to expect when you're like and I was like, no, pregnancy I think is gonna happen like naturally. I need a parenting book. Like, I don't know, I'm gonna be parenting her for the rest of my life. I don't know how to do that. Like, that is, and so I found um I literally from the day that I found out I was pregnant, I started parenting. Yeah. Like, and and starting to rewire all of the things and like figuring out how to fill some gaps that I knew existed. And um it's where I learned about boundaries for the first time in my life was in that book. I was 27 and boundaries were explained. And I and then I was like in my late 30s when another therapist was like, Well, you know what boundaries are, right? But it was like in a peer-to-peer relationship, and I did not, I only knew boundaries with like me to a kid. Like I I only could do that at that point, anyhow. The journey I have been on with boundaries in my life. But I was I had worked so hard to be the mom that I wanted to be with my older two kids. And so then we get into fostering and they start poking at all for survival, right? Like they can find the holes and they poke. And and it's not the work that you have to do there, is like it's not you have to you can't take that out against a kid, right? Like this is not, it's not personal. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Um for for a kid that pokes like that, the way that I explain it is kind of like the scariest part of a scary movie isn't necessarily. The jump scares, the scariest part is the suspense.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Where that music is like leading us to like when does the shark come? Yeah, something's gonna pop out. And we have kids that they'd rather get that part over with. If you're gonna hurt me, just hurt me. If you're gonna scream at me, just scream at me. Let's get the suspense over with. Like in their experience, this is gonna happen at some point. So I'm I'd rather just cut to the chase on it. And so

Button Pushing And Boring Consequences

SPEAKER_00 22:30

they poke and they poke and they poke and they poke. What do you do as a parent in that moment? I think slowing it down is gonna be important, where you're you're pretty aware of your own responses. And a lot of times you're not gonna be able to cognitively explain that piece to the kid. But I like to say like be as boring as possible, where it might be if if I have a kid that's repeatedly pushing a button and I'll say, listen, like the consequence is this. If I have to tell you, you know, again to stop doing that, like, and it can be a small consequence. And you do it in that voice that you just used. Yeah. You've you totally changed your voice. Yes. It's slow, it's calm, it's boring. And um, some there's a model that calls that the storytelling voice. That it's like it's it's a little curious and it's very like almost flat.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, my voice doesn't go flat when in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

You need to like watch some Ben Stiller for a while. Is that the guy with the monotone voice?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

No, my I do, I do um, you know, I do have a whole lot. I have a whole the way that I describe this is I have a whole lot of green. My yellow is not wide, and then I have red. Ah right? Like my green is extensive. But nobody really knows in my life, and we've spent a lot of time in therapy. I have spent a lot of time in therapy because my therapists are like, you have a yellow, you just don't know the signs, Rebecca. Like, let's like pay more attention to the signs, right? And so we're getting better, we've all which means that like now yellow exists.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Right?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Like, well, and your yellow is probably you're probably coloring over it with green. You're probably tricking yourself that, like, no, we're still green, but it's like boiling and boiling, but really it's yellow. You've just really colored over that with a green crayon.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yes. And so what I have started doing, and this this started with a kid, gosh, our third placement. The oldest child in that placement, I talk about him often because he exposed so much of my own heart to me, and he made such a lasting impression. All three of those kids in the in that third placement made such a lasting impression. But um he just would not, could not. There was nothing that got through on the first time. There was nothing that got through on the second time. There was nothing that, like, sometimes we're at five or six or seven. And I, that's not my style. That's not my jam at all. Like, I'm not a like listen to me the first time with perfection, but I am like acknowledge that you heard my voice minimally, right? Um, and so I started then and still do now. This like, hey, I've told you nicely twice. Like I've told you, because he would be like, you're always yelling. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm not, actually. You just don't acknowledge the my voice, you don't hear it. Like you literally, it doesn't, it doesn't process in your airwaves when I but I have said it now nice lots of times. And now I'm saying it not nice, but you know, when you move, you move when I say it like this. Like this is right, and I just started like saying the script out loud.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

And um, and I do that with my kids now. Like, hey, bud, I've asked you three times nicely, what do you think is gonna happen next? So I'm like, yeah, I I'm like announcing the yellow.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Well, and this reminds me of a story of a time I was at the zoo, and just as a parent at the zoo with my kids, we're at the splash pad, and there was a mom there who had three or four kids that were pretty little. Um, but one of her kids was Jonathan, and I will never forget his name because she said it so many times constantly. There's no running allowed on the splash pad signs. Jonathan, stop running. Jonathan, stop running. And it progressed into Jonathan, if you don't stop running, we are packing up, we are leaving the zoo. Yeah, and I know, and so does Jonathan. We are not packing up and leaving the zoo. The zoo is far away from like everything, and you had to pay for your kids to get in there, and you dragged them all in that wagon and you got them there, and and now we're not gonna ruin everybody's day. Like And you're here for your own sanity. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Like Jonathan apparently likes to run.

unknown 27:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

And so it all it takes is just it's like being the mosquito. And so if I say, Jonathan, anytime I see you running, you're gonna come sit next to me and count to 10. That's it. And then we can just say, Jonathan, and wave him over, and he can come sit over here and count to 10. And he can do that 50 times. But at some point, that's gonna, he's he one, he gets all the reputation that his brain needs to learn from that behavior. Two, the consequence I'm giving is so tiny, it's not enough to throw him into a tantrum. And it's also small enough of a consequence that I don't feel guilty in enforcing it. Like I'm gonna feel guilty packing up all my kids because I got mad at one of them for running, right? And then I might not follow through. But I I'm more likely to follow through on one I don't feel guilty about. And it it it's just small. So, you know, moving into like if there is a button and I notice, like, for whatever reason, this really bothers me, then I can just think of, okay, well, what am I doing about it? And if the answer is, well, I'm saying it again, I'm not doing it again. And so a lot of us are trying to be a nice parent, and so we're too nice that then we become mean.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah. And we start screaming. Yeah. I I think um, I think with me, so I have this like I'm a really I tend to be a really consistent parent, right? Like if I say that something's gonna happen, then it happens. If they say that there's gonna be a consequence, there's gonna be a consequence. Like all of that stuff, right? That stuff wired into me from childhood. Like my mom's yes was yes, and her no was no. And if she told you something was gonna happen, you can be damn sure that that thing was gonna happen. Um and it just it was like, oh, this consistency mattered, and right. Um, and it certainly produced a decent behavioral response of in public, yeah, I would say, right? So the thing that I it's like with Zoe and Slade, and I and this is something that I think that dri I think it drives people nuts and they just don't say it out loud. Zoe and Slade know my eyes, yeah. They know the tone of my voice, they know when Zoe and Slade know where my yellow is. Like for sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

They don't even well, it's literally in their DNA.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Right.

Prenatal Stress And Baby Brain Wiring

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Okay, go for that. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Well, since the time that you conceived them, you know, not only is their DNA mixed with yours, like genetically, you guys are related 50%. And you had this whole pregnancy experience with them where literally your thoughts and emotions are creating hormones that are covering this baby. So you've been passing down your instincts that whole gestational time. And so that's where like it can get confusing for people where it's like I was in the delivery room and I when I adopted my baby. It's like, wait, but they were they spent nine months somewhere else being gifted with instincts on how to survive whatever experiences the birth mom went through. This is how we develop instincts? It's part of it, yeah. That's fascinating, Stacey. They've done a lot of studies on pregnant women and how just her thoughts and emotions alone, within fractions of a second, the infant will have a response to that. That is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yeah. It also, I'm not gonna lie, makes me a little bit panicky for all of the um stress, any any moment that I had stress in my pregnancy. Yeah. Which seeing as how it was very sick for both of them, there was a lot of there was a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

But um, but also remember you're not just gifting them with, hey, world, the world is stressful and you're gonna get sick a lot. You're also giving them like this is how I managed it. This is my I I have support. I'm I can do things about it. Like there's pieces that you're also teaching that you don't even realize of like, okay, when I get sick, I have a plan. When I get sick, I have support, I know what to do. Like there's a lot to our world that goes into all of that. The the top two things that research showed make a difference on a baby's attachment at birth was um number one, and this is even above uh this was so crap crazy fascinating to me. This is above this this matters more than a child being born addicted. So the top two things that are going to affect their attachment right at birth is number one, did the birth mother plan to parent this baby? Or was she considering other options and not doing the bonding pieces that are typical between a woman and her unborn baby? There's a lot of planning and and attachment that happens there, of like imagining their life and how I'm going to hold them, rock them, decorating the room.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

So much attachment.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Right. So did she want to, did she plan to parent this baby? And number two was did she feel supported by the baby's biological father during the pregnancy? So when we look at children who were adopted or who end up in foster care, most of the time we're missing one or both of those.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Wow. I'm like thinking back to um to Zoe's, right? As the as like the first and a surprise-ish. I mean, you can't be too surprised when you're not doing anything to stop it. Right. But but definitely like a little bit of a surprise. Um and the first thing that I got for her was this like pink and white polka dot blanket at Target. It was so soft. And that blanket I would hold through my sickest days. And I would like, and I was so, I mean, I was so sick during Zoe's pregnancy. But so my rule was like, if I puked three times at work, I would go home for the rest of the day. And I would curl up in bed, and my dog Hemingway would come and curl next to me, and I would like hold this blanket and I would dream of life with her. Yeah. Like I would like, I would be like, it is so worth this cost. Like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Well, and you can hear like what you're subconsciously passing down there is even though I'm so sick, even though I'm barely functioning, I love this baby and I'm gonna take care of this baby.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

No matter what, mom's here.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Yeah. There was a second day, and this day I was just telling you about this recently, where I took the day off work. Like there was some stress happening, like there was some like relational drama in my family of origin at the time. And um, I just needed some space. And so I took the day off work and I was like, Brad, I'm taking Zoe on our first like mommy-daughter day. And it was like right around my birthday and Mother's Day. And I did, I went to Barnes and Noble and read, I went to a restaurant and had lunch. I went to, we went and got our like a pedicure. And I'm saying, like, we, like I was, I I very much was experiencing that day with her. And it sounds so crazy, but I was like, Zoe, I like that whole day, it was you and me. We and like it was wild, but I've never even thought about like how that would be building in her brain. Right. Right? I've always known that on that day she was we were we were doing it together. Like I knew it.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

And you were preparing her for the world outside of your womb. You're not alone. I'm

Why Adoption Is Still A Trauma

SPEAKER_00 36:00

with you. We do it together.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

So then you get to adoption and you don't have this. Right. And they don't have this.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Or if they did, it changes drastically. Wait a second. Where are you? I thought we were doing this together. Wait, this is different. This isn't the voice that's familiar to me. It's a huge loss.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Oh, that makes me want to cry. Like just putting myself in that subconscious brain of a baby or a one-year-old or that's why they say adoption is a trauma.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Every adoption is a trauma.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

So then how do you how do you build? And I I wanna pull back in the like um we're parenting our kids to survive the childhood that we had, right? Unless we do a ton of work, or unless our childhood was just really great. Um, and it can be. It's not often the case. But it can be. I want to leave space for, you know, I've had some beautiful conversations with people where they're like, yeah, I didn't have relational trauma in my family of origin.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

And and it's not about attachments, not about blaming our parents, right? Like, oh man, if they had just no, but every kid is different. And even when you have more than one child, you start recognizing I can't parent that kid the way I parent this kid. This one needs things done a little differently. And so sometimes we don't notice that with our own kids until they grow up and hopefully tell us. Or sometimes our parents didn't notice that. And so we can look back and say, oh, even though I didn't have an abusive parent, I had a parent that met my needs, I had a parent that did some really awesome things with me. I think I needed a slightly different approach. And maybe things would have been a little bit different if, you know, they had been able to do it this way or that way. And it's not about blaming them, it's about us being able to take the realization of what we needed then and fill in those gaps for ourselves now of okay, I think I was a kid that really was such a rule follower. I didn't need a lot of consequences. And so my parent was doing good parent things of if you do something wrong, here's your consequence. But I might have been a kid that beat myself up and I don't need that added consequence that actually made me feel a distance from them. They didn't know they're doing their best, but I can fill in those gaps now for myself and say, okay, like I can recognize that even if there is a consequence in some way in my life, it's not personal. It doesn't have anything to do with those things. It's just a uh cause and effect. Cause and effect. And I also don't need to beat myself up as bad because if I did something wrong, the consequence will come, all problem solved through the consequence, and then we'll be back on our path. So it's just kind of this acknowledgement of what was missed either through my realization or maybe what I needed differently. How do I fill in those pieces now? And that brings healing. And so parenting our kids is going to be healthier when we've already filled in those gaps for ourselves instead of compensating it to our kids. But sometimes we overcompensate. So if I was a kid who didn't have a lot of supervision, now I'm giving my kids a lot of supervision. It's like, oh no, I know what kids do in the movies. There's not a parent there. You're never doing that. So you're following your 15-year-old to the movies. Right. And so it's like maybe your kid doesn't need that. You know, like, and so in And also maybe it's just part of being a kid. Right. Like, right. And so I've got to fill in these gaps of like, okay, hold on. I was a kid that needed more supervision, and I was a different person than my kid is. Is that does that mean the same thing for my kid? Or just because I needed something, does that mean that my kid needs that?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Mm-hmm. And so then building attachment with children that you don't have the opportunity to build that in the womb with, like building attachment post-adoption, no matter how you kind of get to adoption, right? I think, I think it's fascinating. Um, I have this, well, never mind. I'm not actually gonna say that theory on the air because I don't want it public. But it's fascinating to me to watch the different ways that adoption happens and the different pathways that attachment takes based off of was this a baby? Is this a baby with a single mom? Right. Those, okay. I am actually gonna say it on like those to me, I have I have watched single moms who adopt babies, and I'm like, this those bonds are tight. Like those bonds really, really, really sink deep because they're what the other person has. And so even though there's this inherent loss because there is an adoption, they find each other a lot of times. Not always, nothing is, but a lot of times. Um, and then you know, then you you move on to like, is this an international adoption where they were in an orphanage, not like, is this a am I adopting a teenager? Am I adopting kids that lived with me for three years in foster care, and then now we're now there's an adoption? Like, however, you get there, you're building then permanent attachment blocks. So what without putting the pressure of attaching to the level or to the with the ease that you do with biological kids, like how do you start building that attachment?

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Well,

The Surprising Foster Care Attachment Study

SPEAKER_00 42:20

you reminded me of a of another study that they did on one-year-old babies um who were in care. So they had, you know, of course, you have the control group of a biological baby with their biological parent. They had a baby in kinship care, so being raised by a relative. They had a baby and and more than one, like these are just the groups. Um, a group of babies that were being raised by foster parents who had no intention to adopt. And they had babies who were being placed in hopeful adoptive homes. And they monitored the and and assessed the level of attachment that those babies had with those caregivers that they were with. And the fascinating thing is the babies, um, obviously in the in they were looking for how are these attachments compared to a biological family member and a secure one, a secure attachment. Um, and the group that had the securest attachment, the most relative to a biological secure attachment relationship, was the foster parents who didn't have a plan to adopt the baby. They're caring for this baby with no expectations. The parents, what they had figured out was that in the other groups, there was probably a bit of guardedness on the parents' side. Of I might lose this baby. Like I might not be able to parent this baby forever. And so there's kind of a guard guardedness where the foster parent group was just accepting of we're just going to roll with the punches here. So going back to lowering that level of expectation with what our attachment needs to be with our now older child, we've just got to lower those expectations so that we can just kind of chill out. I tell people like if I have to sum up what being secure is, what is a secure attachment, it's the ability to just chill out. And it's really hard to do, actually. To just not worry about this and that and how do I, but how do I make it right? How do I do it the right way? How do I you just chill out.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

I mean, if I'm looking at it's fascinating fascinating to me because I have my two, right? And then the four, I have different levels of connection with each one of them. Because they're all different and they came at different ages and stages and with different needs, like all of that stuff, right? But when I think about it in terms of that chilling out, it's like if something were to happen with Zoe and Slade, when something is happening with Zoe and Slade, I do not have a ton of anxiety in my body.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Right? Like I just am like, well, we're in it. We're in it together.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:37

Like this is, we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

We'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

And on the other side of this, we're gonna be fine, right? Like, um, we were talking about my dog right before this, and when uh there was a situation, and and in the middle of all of it, and and Slade and I were both involved in this, and in the middle of all of it, what I said to him was, You and me, bud, like this is we're gonna figure this out. We're gonna go through this thing together, we're gonna figure it out, and you and I will never be far away from you while it's happening.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

And that is consistent with the message that you gave your daughter when she was in utero, and you probably gave him the same one. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

And so I just had a toddler running around when he was in utero, so I don't have any of this.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Short. We don't have time to lay down with a blanket. But but with adopted kids, that message that they receive from a caregiver isn't always that same one.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Well, also the message that they receive

Releasing Control And Sharing Connection

SPEAKER_01 46:40

from me now, five years in, right? If I'm being really honest, and this is honest conversations, because I have I can have so much anxiety around it, right? Like, and I'm learning, right? You and I have had lots of conversations about this like journey of letting go and and relaxing in it and and absorbing like the the waves.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Right. And I think you're kind of speaking to, you know, and that's like where that pressure comes from of with your children who were adopted, it wasn't always you and me. No, it wasn't always they'll be okay. Right. They weren't always okay. Right. You weren't always there, you couldn't be, you weren't even in their life yet. And so now there's that pressure of okay, I'm gonna use the old model that I've always used, which is no matter what, you and me. And here we are. And this is this is just boy, the the heads are butting. Because that's not the internal model that they've always felt.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Right. Right. And then when it falls through, then I'm like, I'm failing. I'm you know, like all of those things, even if it's subconscious, it's still this like internal like turmoil that or it feels like you and me, damn it, just come on. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Why can't you just understand that I want the best for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:07

And then the kid is like, I just want to get away from you. And then you're like, nothing works, like I can go from that to like just this despair of like nothing works, it doesn't even matter what I like, not in a healthy way at all, just in a like I'm not, right? You're just exhausted from trying so hard. And so what I have found and what we keep alluding to is this um is this understanding that like I could do the best job possible on the face of the planet, which I'm not and haven't done, but like I still tend to hold myself to that standard and I still can't control the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

And that's the bar we have to delete is like I'm not, I'm not like, okay, what's the best aunt in the world doing? What do I do as an aunt? Because I'm also recognizing as an aunt my niece, my nephew, they have other people that are going to influence their life. And like as a parent, I have to accept that piece too. It feels like it's like, okay, you and me, you and me. Like that's the model that we know. But this kid has never had just the it's you and me model.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

And so we kind of have to let ourselves off the hook a bit of I can be steady. I I it can be you and me sometimes, but sometimes it's gonna be them and and whoever else they choose to put in their life. And, you know, what can I do?

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Yeah. And and leaning into for me, leaning into those relationships for them where they feel a little bit of that pressure valve release, right? Yeah. Because what we're not touching on, we've touched on it a little bit, but not a ton, is how hard it can be for them to see you as mom. Right. And subconscious or conscious, right? Like how hard that like mother wound or father wound, right? But like that it can there's so much pressure on them. Why doesn't she feel like she's my mom? Right. Why don't other kids talk about their mom? And I don't I don't feel like that when I'm looking at my mom, right? And they don't maybe they have words for it. I'm sure that they find those words when they're teenagers and we're just not the best. Like this is, but but to have like for my kids to have my sisters and my sister-in-laws who see them and delight in them because they exist. Right. Is so wonderful for my kids. For my kids to have teachers who see them and delight in them because they exist. Yeah. Like I've stopped apologizing for the most part for my kids' behaviors. Like I have kids in VBS this week, right? And my youngest is you know, letting everybody know that he's there. But the phone calls have stopped happening, right? Like they've never called me one time, which is progress in the last five years of VBS's with different kids. Like, and I'm like, great. If they haven't called me, it's not my business. Like this is it's not my business. And if they're handling it and they're delighting in him, even with all of his behavioral needs, I'm not gonna apologize for this, right? Like, I'm not gonna pull that pressure on to me. They're adult, like that kind of stuff. That's new. That's that wasn't there three years ago for me. Three years ago, I was like, I'm so sorry. I don't have this. Okay, we're getting in the car. They're getting reprimanded. Like you know better than to show, you know, like this kind of oh, I just cracked my knuckles. Sorry, I'm not editing that out, guys. If you're listening.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Well, it feels like a it can feel like a reflection on you of like, okay, my parent report card, I didn't do very well because my exact behavior had a thing.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Right. Because we're measuring for the outcome. We're controlling the behavior to get the outcome. And so when you release it and you go, actually, I am not in control of that. The only thing that I'm in control of is myself.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

Right. And they are their own person.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

And they're their own person.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Most of us now as adults, we don't look at the successes that we've had and credit that to our parents. Right. Like I had to make my own choices to get here. And sure, my parents influenced and helped, but ultimately I had to make my own choices. And and sometimes my parents weren't supportive of the choices I made that actually created success for me. I am my own person. And it's the same thing with children.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, it's so hard as a parent in that in-between role. Anyhow, it has been so great. I don't think I'm there yet. Where you what where what you were just talking. That might be next for me of like looking at them and being like, you're your own kid, you're your own person. Like, but I am in that space of like you have the ability to have your own relationships.

How Your Child Will Remember You

SPEAKER_00 53:25

There is an assessment that I do with adults that is it's the best assessment that there is for how we determine an adult attachment pattern. And one of the questions in that, it's called the adult attachment interview. And one of the questions in that is a question that I use to guide my own parenting. And it's um, how do you hope that your child what what do you hope that your children would have gained from their experience being parented by you? Like overall, what do they what do they reflect on? And so I have done hundreds of these adult attachment interviews, and I have seen all these different examples of this kind of child grows up to say this about their experience and what those things look like. And so, in a way, I parent each moment thinking this could be the moment that my child reflects on 30 years from now, with their therapist or somebody else. But how do I want to be remembered in this moment? And how do I want them to remember this moment? And I worked with someone who was like kind of having like a shock moment as a parent because they got a phone call where they're like, Oh, your kid is being inappropriate, and they had to go show up there. And so they're like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to handle this situation. And I said, just remember, both of you are going to be remembering how you showed up in 30 years. Yep. And this could mean our relationship turns for the better. Yep. Or this relationship, you know, bursts into flames.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

There are moments, truly, there are moments where I'm like, you don't get a second chance. Like the way that you show up and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is 100% going to be remembered for the rest of that person's life.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

And based on this assessment, I'll tell you what people carry on are not those single big moments of like, oh yeah, that one time I got in trouble and my mom showed up like a lunatic. We remember the consistent, most of the time, the pattern. It's that pattern that we remember. Most of the time, my parents showed up this way. It's the everyday little things that we don't think about. It's just how I was with them overall in general.

SPEAKER_01 55:52

I have this in my head about when I come home from work. Like that, that entrance into the house is so defining in my childhood.

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

And I was and I'm repeating, like, right? And I get it. And and in the me repeating, I have actually found so much um compassion for my mom coming home from work to five kids who had were latchkey kids that right, like had probably destroyed the house and she just wants to walk into a clean kitchen, or you know, like that. Um, or you know, you walk in and you just see all of the problems. And so I saw myself doing that for, and I was like, my kids are gonna remember me like this. Like this is gonna, because I'm doing it every single time that I come home, which is actually gonna start instilling fear in me coming home. Not that nobody's nobody's getting spanked, nobody, you know what I mean? Like nothing like that. But like I come home and I turn into, I would turn into a drill sergeant, clean the floor up, do this, do this, do this. And I was like, no, there has to be a five-minute gap. I'm gonna come home, I'm gonna go to the bathroom, I'm gonna get a drink, I'm gonna look around, I'm going to greet my children.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

Yeah. And and this is the perfect example that you just gave of like, this is how you find your own security is you look back on your childhood experiences and how you experienced your parent. And we're not blaming your mom, actually. You have compassion for her. Oh, yeah. Yeah, she came home and it looked like a bomb went off in this house. And you're, you know, she wasn't trying to hurt her children's feelings or anything like that. She was overwhelmed. But what you carried forward was and being able to be aware and recognize that didn't feel good from the kids' standpoint. And so you're holding both your mom's mindset and your childhood mindset at the same time to make sure that you can give your child a healthy experience.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

Yeah. Or at least be aware of what I'm not sure. One step at a time. One step at a time. And awareness is always the first step, right? But it's it is that like like landing that landing this whole plane of like, I can't control anything else. I can only control myself. And if I'm thinking about this question of like, what do I want my kids to remember me as? Or who do I want them to remember me as? How do I consistently show up? Right. Like

Repair Over Perfection And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 58:25

I've been able to name it for myself of like, I'm a mom who repairs.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Yeah. And that's how it all starts is repair. Like, so even if your mom every day came home, like a bomb went off and she's freaking out, but there's that repair piece of like, guys, oh, I'm trying to stop this. I'm so sorry. I keep coming home so overwhelmed. And yes, the house shouldn't be looking like this. So that's kind of on you guys. At the same time, my reaction's on me. And I'm sorry, that changes something in the relationship. And so it starts with that. We don't have to be the perfect parent. We we just have to get this right a third of the time. A third.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

I mean, amazing. That statistic alone, right? Like those two things that you those two things that a healthy attachment with an adopted kid is like the standard should be that of an aunt or a like a beloved aunt or uncle. And that we only have to get it right 30 per 30% of the time.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

33% of the time.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

And repair the other portion. The other portions. It's I can do that, right? Like, and I think that so many parents are like, oh, I can do that. I get it right 30% of the time. We're all in this world because we thought we were really good parents before we started this.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yes. And those pieces, even though, and we kind of started with like it can feel like an ugly thing to say of like, well, your standard can be just, you know, be the beloved aunt. It it's like, ugh. But it if if having that mindset is what helps you chill out, and that chilling out is what creates the environment for a secure connection.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

Correct. Then you actually there you go. I don't want to say you actually make it past the point of beloved aunt. But you could. But you could. But that's the groundwork that actually gets you there. If you want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Those pieces are the bonus.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

Right. They're just, it's like, this is great. I was happy with this. Like, this is look at this, how wonderful. And I think just also remembering like this is the long haul. Right. Adoption is the long haul.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:35

And so it's not what is my relationship today. It's, you know, when when my kids are 40, we're going to have a different rel. We're going to have all of this. This is a long game, right? And we're going to have more waves of unease. We're going to have more waves of joy and freedom. We're going to have more waves of doing this of seasons where it's great. And you are like, I'm soaking in every moment of this and more waves where you're like, I'm holding on for dear life. Or I'm just kind of curled into a ball and rolling. Like the sometimes I'm under the riptide. Like sometimes, you know, like this is, but this is just life. And and we can't control our kids' outcomes. We can we can just be present for it. Where it's like, hey, I'm here. Just being with. And this is what I'm willing to do, right? Yep. Willing to bail you out of jail one time.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yep. Knowing. Just knowing it. Like these are my these are my boundaries. My work with boundaries has changed my life. Because I think it you I don't think you can have healthy attachment without it. Right. Right. Like, I don't you, I don't think you even have a shot at healthy attachment without boundaries. You don't. Um,

Lightning Round Plus Finding Stacy

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

okay. On that note, at the end of every episode, we do a lightning round of three fun little questions that do not matter at all, but I love asking. Okay. Um, what's on your nightstand?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

Oh my goodness. Um fluffs of dog hair, because I brush my dogs and then whatever mats there are, I take them out of the brush and set them on the nightstand. And there's probably at least three cups of like a cup, cups that have an inch of water in them.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

Um, because then I just get a fresh cup and I don't bring the other ones down.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

Okay, so maybe I love asking this question because it just shows the wide variety of humanity and also like people who have it together in one way sometimes answer fluffs of dog hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

We're all human here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

Just makes people human.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

Yes, there's also a lamp.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Yeah. Nice. Um second question. What books or podcasts are you loving right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

Hmm, a good one. Um let me think about that for a minute. Cause it's so I have so many books that I end up putting in my like Spotify library that I don't get to. Spotify library. Yeah, I listen, like they have audible books. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Um people love a Spotify, man. I yeah, I use Spotify never for anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

Okay. Well, I've uh yeah, I like it. Um, because you don't I feel like you can listen to music, you can listen to podcasts, you can listen to books. It's all in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:34

It's all in there. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

Okay, what's um, but honestly, the book I'm listening to right now is uh a book that my 10-year-old and I are listening to together. We're doing the Maze Runner series, so we listen to it together at bedtime. I've heard really good stuff about that series. Is it good? It yeah, it is good. It is good. Um I it's a little cheesy, but it's good. I like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

When I go home, uh one of my girls wants me to read a book to her called The Cats Are Plotting to Kill You. Oh, I haven't heard of it. I've never heard of it before. I don't even know where she got it, Stacey. I have no idea. Like I've never seen this book before, but somehow she has it and she's like, Mom, I really this book says that the cats are plotting to kill you. Let's read it. And I'm like, great.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

So I wish I I wish I read more books and listened to more podcasts, but I'm more of a TV junkie to be honest. Oh, okay. Well, what TV show are you loving right now? Oh, that's a good one too. I watch a lot of documentaries. Okay. The crash was like a pffff mind-blowing if you haven't seen it. I haven't. What is that about? That is about Mackenzie Sherilla, and she um was found guilty of murder. She crashed her car into a brick wall with her boyfriend and friend in the car. Um did she intend to die? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

So she wanted to do murder suicide.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

But she lived.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Yes. But it's it's a very interesting and clear depiction of when parents don't give appropriate boundaries to their teenager. She was allowed to, I mean, at 17, she was allowed to live with her boyfriend who was 20. Uh, she was allowed to use drugs. She was allowed, like she was allowed and afforded a lot of um choices that most parents limit. And so it was just, it's very interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:27

Um, and then my third question is what's bringing you joy right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

My dogs. I love them. I'm obsessed. We're dog sitting right now. There's another therapist in the area that has also two King Charles, Cavalier King Charles spaniels. And so currently we have four in my house, which is probably why there's so many fluffs of hair on the nightstand.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

How long are you dog sitting for?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

Um, until Saturday or Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

So it's been over a week.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

Wow. It's a lot of dogs. Um, it is a lot of dogs. Hi, Parker. Parker is one of her dogs, and he's actually here with us right now. He's smelling my feet. Um, Stacey, thanks so much for coming and doing this and talking about attachment and sharing your wisdom and the work that you do in um the community. Are you taking new clients? I am. Great. So if you're in the do you do virtual? I do. For people who live in Florida, like anybody that lives in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Anyone that lives in Florida.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Okay, so we will link Stacy's website. That's the best way for them to contact you, right? Yep. Um, in the show notes, if you are in Jacksonville, Stacy is renowned in Jacksonville as an attachment therapist. She is a gift to this community. So check her out. Thanks for being here. Thank you so much.