A Champion for Women in STEM - Dr. Tracianne Neilsen - BYU Professor

Dr. Tracianne Neilsen is a professor in the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Brigham Young University (BYU). She is known for her work in acoustics, particularly:

• Sound Propagation and Acoustic Wave Behavior: The study of how sound waves propagate through different media and environments.
• Noise Control: The study of the impact of various noise sources and developing methods to mitigate unwanted sound.
• Passive Sonar: The study of detecting underwater objects by listening to the sounds they produce, without emitting any signals.

Dr. Neilsen has authored and co-authored a number of research papers and articles in the field of acoustics. Some key areas covered in her publications include:

• Wave Field Synthesis and Acoustic Holography: Research on methods for reconstructing sound fields, which has applications in sound reproduction and noise control.
• Sound Field Characterization: Papers on understanding and characterizing sound fields in various environments, such as how sound behaves in underwater settings or complex media.
• Research on Signal Processing in Acoustics: Her work also includes signal processing techniques to analyze sound waves, which can be applied to environmental noise analysis and medical ultrasound.

Dr. Neilsen is actively involved in promoting the participation of women in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) fields. She has engaged in various initiatives and programs aimed at:

• Mentorship and Support for Female Students: She mentors female students at BYU, encouraging them to pursue careers in physics, acoustics, and other STEM disciplines. Her mentorship often extends beyond academic guidance to include career advice and professional development.
• Women in Physics and Acoustics Initiatives: Dr. Neilsen has been involved with organizations and events that focus on supporting women in physics and acoustics. She participates in panels, workshops, and conferences that aim to address the challenges faced by women in these fields.
• Advocacy and Outreach: She is an advocate for creating a more inclusive environment in STEM fields, often participating in outreach activities that inspire young women to explore careers in science and engineering. Her involvement helps to raise awareness of gender disparities in STEM and promotes a more diverse and equitable academic environment.

Dr. Neilsen's work is significant not only in the realm of acoustics, but also in her efforts to foster a more inclusive and supportive community for women in STEM.

Transcript

New is not a sin. It just means you're new. It's really hard for them to see themselves as computer people. I get him in the door with me. I can learn to do measurements, she said. Thank you for convincing me. I know more more computer coding than anyone on my team. The best way to gain confidence is to set high expectations.

Do hard things for then they know they can do different things. If science and engineering really want women, they have to learn to provide flexibility when they have to. So if I was in charge of the world, I would make reentry shit. I'm really.

Welcome. The podcast filmed in MD acoustics anechoic chamber in beautiful Gilbert, Arizona.

In this special episode, we are joined by BYU professor Doctor Tracy Nielsen, a champion of women in Stem. Each episode, we bring you compelling conversations, practical advice, and illuminating stories from the minds of industry leaders, educators, innovators, and visionaries who are shaping the world. One idea at a time. We invited some of MD acoustics top acoustical consultants, each at different phases of their careers, to engage in this insightful conversation with Doctor Nielsen.

I'm Claire Pin Cork. I've been at MD acoustics for seven years. I'm Rachel, I've been at MD acoustics for two years. I'm Naomi, I've been at MBA acoustics for a little under a year. And here we are with our guest today, Tracy Nielsen, who is a current BYU physics professor. So welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here.

I'm so Doctor Nielsen. Just tell us a little bit about yourself. What's your position? What do you do? So I am a professor in the Department of physics and astronomy at Brigham Young University. My research specialty is in underwater acoustics and, I love teaching. I teach often an intro acoustics class or graduate acoustic classes, but also a a class on energy, climate in the environment or other physics classes.

And a large part of my job is mentoring students on research. We love to have our undergraduates, especially, and graduate students, work on real research projects that they can present at conferences. And I love that part of seeing the natural development and growth as the students, start to grasp their potential. So what was it that initially got you into acoustics?


So I really enjoyed science, math and science growing up. My dad majored in physics. He became a test pilot, and he would take me out to see the stars. So I started college, declared an electrical engineering major, but decided I didn't want to learn to be an electrical engineer. So I switched and said math or physics?

And I liked physics better than math. I by the end of my second year. And so I did my bachelor's degree at Brigham Young University. Then I served a mission for a church and came back and started graduate school. During that year, my husband and I got married. He's also in physics, and we applied and went to the University of Texas at Texas, at Austin for our PhDs.

His field is very specialized. So I was looking for something more general and flexible and, that could be, you know, accommodating, his, his probably narrow field of choices for career. So I decided on acoustics. At the time, I went around, asked professors who had funding in acoustics, wet wet projects they had, and one was highway noise barriers, and the other was in underwater acoustics.

So I selected the underwater acoustics project. I worked at the Applied Research Laboratories at the University of Texas at Austin under Evan Westwood for my PhD. That's great. So then what, what was it that brought you to BYU? So, our journey, to BYU was, a little different. Often in the sciences, after you finish your PhD, you do at a called postdocs.

And so, we already had one child by the time I graduate with my PhD. So the lab offered me a postdoc position, and I asked me if I could do half time, and they agreed. And my husband was also doing a postdoc and then got his second postdoc in Louisiana. So then I asked him if we could I could do a quarter time postdoc remotely.

Back before that was a very normal thing. And, I will always be grateful for my postdoc advisor, David Nobles, my lab, division director Clark Penrod in the lab, director Richard Grubman, who said, sure, let's try it. And, that flexibility meant everything to me and, allowed me to keep it going. And then my husband was hired as full time faculty at BYU, in.

So we moved there. And for a long time, our children at that point were one, three and seven years old. And so for a long time I just taught as an adjunct or a and then when they were all in school, I started getting involved in research again, part time at BYU, in acoustics. And so that was kind of our journey.

So, as an adjunct, what did that look like with young kids? So the first year, so drop off the second grader, then Monday, Wednesday, Friday, drop off the preschool, drive to campus, have the one year old walk around with a friend while I talk class, pick up the one year old, pick up the three year old and go home.

So that was the first year. And that's wild. I'm pretty good. Okay. Could you tell us a little bit about the research you were doing for underwater acoustics? Yeah. So my research in underwater acoustics is in the realm of passive sonar. So you maybe have heard about active sonar, right? Echolocation, things pinging. But if you're trying to be really quiet, and either, like, be stealthy, like a submarine or just observe the ocean and the marine mammals, you don't actually want to be making any noise.

And so you're just listening to the sounds. So that's the realm of passive sonar. So in my research, we are trying to take the observed sound, that you record underwater and from that learn something about the ocean or the animals in the ocean. So environmental monitoring is done that way, for new projects. But my work specifically, centers on how do you take just the noise that's occurring, like the big cargo ships that are really loud, that are transiting and learn about the seabed, learn if there's if it's mud down there or rocks or gravel or sand, because all of those things influence how the sound travels.

So tell us a little bit about your work in ASA and your collaborations with ASA. So the ASA is the Acoustical Society of America, and it's the premier professional society for people who are in acoustics. And it's a very broad society. Everything from architectural acoustics, ultrasound, biomedical acoustics to physical acoustics, underwater acoustics. There's likedifferent areas.

So it's a wonderful society. I've been a member of that society foryears now since I gave my first talk there. And, it's just a great place to go and exchange ideas and to really get to know people. And I really, I'm grateful for the society of America, the friendships that I've developed there. It's like you have these amazing friends that you just see once or twice a year.

And but now for a long time, you've gotten to watch their lives and their careers. You also get to network and build connections within your field and that's so important to be able to do that. So I know you've done a lot, with Asa as, with women in acoustics. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah. So we have a women in Acoustics committee. Issa, I was the chair of that fromto . And, one of the things we some of the things we've done have included outreach for like middle school girls in conjunction with the conferences. And then we also have, luncheon where we honor a Women in Acoustics.

And then we would write little columns in the Acoustics Today magazine where we talked about their careers. But in light of a general subject that was of interest, like networking, the two body problem where you have spouses or partners with two careers, or the work parenting harmony question. So that's that's what some of the things that they've been doing.

The Women Acoustics Committee also has, travel grants for, for young investigators, for people who've just recently finished their degrees, but they also have, child or dependent care grants. So if it's just a little bit of money to help take care of your dependents, whether they be older or younger, you know, while you're attending the meetings.

So in that position, you know, what are some of the specific challenges that women face? You talked a little bit about, how it'll be more often that a you and a spouse might be both doing a career, which can be a challenge. And, depending on care, what are else or are things that you see come up as a woman in acoustics?

Yeah, I think those are those are really, really important things. And I'm glad that I think people are talking about the more. I think it's just, you know, every, every family has to decide what their balance is with regards to that. And who is going to take on certain responsibilities. So, it's we try and the Women and Acoustics Committee to be very supportive of, both men and women who are, you know, have different responsibilities at different stages of their lives.

What are some things you would do to encourage women? I mean, really in any Stem field, but especially in acoustics, to have their voices heard and to stand out. So I think that some of the, the key, the key questions, there's first the like, how do you get people to enter the field? How do you people get people to stay in the field?

You know, both of those are questions. I think with regards to entry into the field, it's really important to understand some of the common concerns that people have. There's, the fear of, you know, failure, that it's not central to where most of these fears are very broad. But, the fears of failure, the fear of not fitting in.

There's also just lack of experience and lack of confidence, which in many times in technical fields can be stronger for women if they, you know, didn't grow up playing with the voltmeter or coding since they were ten or things like that. It's very easy to feel like maybe I don't belong because I don't already have that experience.

So I think in all of these, it's just really important to foster a growth mindset. It's one of the keywords and that idea that you're, you know, you you that this whole learning is a process. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you're stupid. The key thing really is can you learn? Can you take that information and and go with it?

You know, can you ask the right questions? I mean, we really live in an era with the internet where you don't have to memorize a lot of facts. You just need to know how to ask the right questions. And then discern if that information is credible. How do you use it? What's the next question you want to ask?

So I think the more we can foster that growth mindset, it will really help people in Stem generally, to feel like they belong. Communicating is so important. Communicating about things like imposter syndrome and that that's that's not just a women in Stem thing. That's the, you know, most of the most of the ambitious people in the world, most of the highly motivated people in the world experience this.

And it's fascinating. It's it's, actually a biological thing because the part of your brain that processes motivation also processes anxiety. So if you're feeling anxious, it's probably just your brain is working the way it works. So it's good to know that it's normal. You can find ways to cope with it, but it doesn't go away. But there's also a very interesting extra level of uncertainty in that called the stereotype threat.

This is when, you are fighting against a certain stereotype. Perhaps it is, you know, there's all different kinds, and you're afraid that when you fail, you're going to confirm that stereotype in somebody's mind. And that's such an important thing. It was discovered and named, in a study in, California where they looked at African American young men who were very successful in high school, failed out of college, and then went on to be very successful in their careers.

They're trying to figure out what happened and they really discovered that they were laboring under this extra layer of fear of failure due to the stereotype they were fighting against. And the more you're fighting it, the more you care, the harder it is. So the more we understand those things and and really, you know, open the space for conversation and communicating that these fears are normal and that it doesn't mean you don't believe them.

It just means you're human. You're in, you know, it's normal, and you get to work through it and figure out ways to tackle things. It it really makes a huge difference. Another thing that has been shown with, women in particular, is that they often want to choose careers where they feel like they're helping people. Right. And so how do we how do we go about that?

How do we convince them that studying a Stem field right here, studying acoustics in particular, is something that will really, you know, impact people's lives? And the work you do here in MD acoustics, especially with all of your noise studies and, you know, those things that really impact people's surroundings, I think is, is one of those ways that we can really help people see that.

So I have a question for you, too. As early career, acquisitions, have you noticed any challenges in the job or in your education of being a woman in acoustics? Yeah. I just I could relate to what a lot of, Tracy was saying about the stereotype threat, I think. I always felt a pressure to be to overcome this idea of of what a woman in physics might be.

And it didn't really help that I was also comparing myself to a lot of the other women who I saw as, like, very smart and very capable. I had to really. I'm still working on this, you know, trying not to judge myself in comparison to specifically other women. I feel like that is, a big pitfall for me, but also just having an awareness that, you know, stereotype, you know, that's a real thing.

That has really helped me, be the best that I can in this field. So, yeah, I also relate to the stereotype threat, as a woman in physics, when I was in the major. I felt like I needed to really prove myself so I could prove women. But in reality, that's not the case. There are plenty of us who are successful.

And, I it's something I'm still overcoming as well. Same as Naomi, but slowly. And the I it was interesting. I had a, I had a physical science teacher in ninth grade in high school who told me over and over again, you should study physics, you should study physics. And I just was like, I'm never going to study physics.

I don't care at all. I'm not interested. And when I went to BYU and I still was unsure of what I was doing, I, I took the descriptive, acoustics class just because I needed something to fill. And it looked interesting and it was literally two weeks of Doctor Nielsen subbing and going to that class. And then for the first time, I thought, I want to study physics because before then I didn't see somebody like me.

And even though my physical science teacher was amazing and so encouraging and so great, still just the ability to see somebody that I could see myself in that position and go, this is something I can do, made such a big difference that I, I mean, it was like a few weeks into the semester and I changed my major to something that I had never taken before and knew nothing about.

And that was, yeah, having that ability to to see yourself and those around you. I didn't even know how much that affected me until all of a sudden it did. Scary. It took it took a few professors really talking about, like, wow, I'm drawn of like, what is it called? The imposter syndrome? It took the few professors really talking about imposter syndrome and reminding me that I was good at what I did before I felt like I belonged in the physics department.

And I'm wondering how you make sure that your students are aware of that. What did what would you tell them? Yeah. So I think just knowing that it's normal is such an important thing because it's so easy to just, you know, think that this is just me and I somehow don't belong. And so the more we talked about it being very normal and, you know, and, and how hard it is.

Right. And if we talk about our own struggles, you know. Oh, I remember when I was learning that and, you know, it took me forever. One of the most amazing things is I regularly every year, you know, have new students and they look at the students who've like, been there two years saying they know everything. I can never be like that.

And I'm like, oh yeah, but two years ago they were in your spot, right? And so the more you can say that you know, then then and give those examples, you know, even even when people don't ask, but just putting them into conversations like, I know this might be a lot new stuff for you to take in. Just remember, you're here to learn.

And as long as you're learning, then that's really the key, right? And then when they say, oh, they know so much, you say, yeah, but they didn't a year ago or they didn't two years ago. It's just, you know, why you're here. So the more we can really just be open and honest about. Yeah, I remember when I was learning that it was really hard or it took me forever to figure out the difference between this and that.

You know, the more we can just use that in our normal conversation, it just really opens that space for people to truly learn and embrace the fact that, you know, being new is not a sin. You know, it just means you're new, right? Yeah. And you have things to learn. But we always have things to. Yeah. I wanted to add to that.

I remember, the Women in physics group at BYU and what a resource that was, just to be able to have other women that, you know, these sort of interactions you're talking about where it's like, I remember what it's like to be you, you know, and having on both sides of that being able to, you know, help others was just such a huge, full circle moment for me.

I would just say, you know, if I could put my $ ., how to encourage people just encouraging them to form connections with each other. Organized groups are a really great way to do that, I found, because you have like a systemic support. So yeah, that would be my $ .. So important. And that's one of the big things that people need to understand when they're taking science classes, math classes, things like that, that, that fundamentally you shouldn't be working alone.

You should form study groups, and you should really look at into how you know, you can, you know, build these connections with other people. It's more fun, it's more efficient. And it it makes a huge difference. I noticed with, you know, in the past seven years, we've had a lot of different employees come and sometimes go and I have noticed a pattern with the new employees that, the women who come in are a lot more likely to struggle with the confidence and something where they'll come in and be, writing up a report and, and just say, I did a bad job and I'm sure it's really bad, or they'll work on something

and say, I don't know what I'm doing. And and it'll it'll be really impressive work for someone who's brand new. But the confidence level is so much lower as a lot of times when it's the men coming in, you know, they'll come at a level of like, yeah, I'm, I'm still learning and that's fine. And it has been a challenge to learn how to mentor my female employees and the male employees differently.

It's it's enjoyable to get the opportunity to mentor female employees because I can see myself as well. And they also lack that confidence early on. And thankfully, Mike was really good at approaching that and and not making me feel like I was unable to do these things. And it's nice to be able to continue to pass that on.

Yeah, it's a true and there's even a whole book, you know, called The Confidence Code. And but but it is true that generally women do have less confidence. And, and part of it, you know, there's, there's lots of possible reasons. But the thing to understand about lack of confidence is the best way to gain confidence is to actually set high expectations for yourself and for those that you mentor, you know, reasonable but high, and then provide the scaffolding and the resources, the assistance they need to be successful at hard things, because that's what actually builds confidence.

So to kind of, flip over to previous, but I do remember in the, the Women in Physics group, one of the things that, had impressed me so much about the BYU program was, Doctor Schnell teaching the required modern physics class that every single physics student, no matter what your physics is, you have to take, modern physics from Doctor Schnell.

And I remember being in that class and watching every single student, just, like, so impressed with her and seeing her with so much respect. And, a lot of the men coming to these programs hadn't necessarily seen, a woman in that position of she is a hard hitting researcher doing something that is not a very woman dominated field.

Modern physics is intense, and yet she just commands the room and and knows so much. And I remember being very inspired by that as well. And, and seeing the respect level of everybody in that room. I think that was a really good moment as well, that it doesn't even have to be somebody who's doing exactly what you're doing, but just to be able to see women in important positions that are being respected, which is very it's very important to to have that in your second year of physics.

Right. That was that was a special opportunity. And I was glad that BYU put a woman in one of those core classes. Yeah. Made a big difference. Do you have an example of someone who inspired you early on in your career or before you started physics that inspired you to get into it? Yeah. So, my dad was my first inspiration.

As far as thinking that physics was the thing you could do, but my, my mom always really loved learning and and really encouraged that and fostered really that, that, that curiosity, you know, that. Let's go see where this trail goes. You know, even if it means to put you on the other side of the mountain, you know, it's okay.

And so this, that we can do this attitude is so important. After working part time as an adjunct for so long, what was the what was the next step in your career? So in , as my kids were older and they, had a new job opening for regular full time faculty member, I really felt prompted to to apply.

I was nervous about making that change and not sure you know what the department would think. But it turned out to be a great year to apply because they were actually able to hire three people that year because of other retirements and moves and things like that. So so I, became full time faculty just May of after years of being an adjunct.

So they gave me rank of associate professor. That's the second rank, but with zero time on the, BYU equivalent of tenure. So on their continuing faculty status, requirement. And that was in part because I was going to go back to underwater acoustics that I hadn't worked in inyears. Because when they said, what are you going to do to show you can lead research and bring in grant money and, you know, be in charge?

I went back to that idea. The it was very scary. Obviously, I hadn't done any of that for a long time. The field had moved on. And, this is where my membership in the Acoustical Society of America was really pivotal, because even though I hadn't been presenting in the underwater acoustics realm for years, I still had contacts with those people.

So when I went to the the ASA meeting, I, met my postdoc advisor and I told him I was getting back in underwater acoustics, and he said, great, I want you to be on this grant with me and those collaborations with him and pulling me into the bigger collaborations allowed me to really dive in to back into underwater acoustics and, you know, have collaborators that actually collected data in the ocean, because that takes like a whole lab, you know, with dedicated research engineers and things like that to do.

But then I still was a little bit of, a quandary. You know, you can't catch up onyears and make meaningful contributions. So I looked around at what was new at the time. And of course, the answer was machine learning applied to these passive sonar ocean acoustics problems. I didn't know anything about machine learning.

I had, a great first graduate student, and we took the deep learning class, and he did all the the assignments, and I just absorbed the words and, and, figured out, like, what this was all about. And, and so we launched off under the, you know, working with this collaborator, my former postdoc advisor. And that just got us into this stream of people doing this stuff and, and, eventually after that, I was able to get my own grants from the Office of Naval Research, and continue forming additional connections and collaborations and, it was it was really amazing.

It's worked out way better than I thought. The other, very tricky thing about that time when I started as new faculty was I, I really felt prompted that I was supposed to build a water tank to do underwater acoustical measurements, and I had never actually done that before. So it was very, very scary time. But I really felt like that's what I should do.


So, I had some startup money from the university, and I applied for, Office of Naval Research direct also, which is for university infrastructure for research, which I was going to do, which allowed me to build a very nice lab, again, with lots of s and not really knowing how to do it. And I had, another excellent graduate student who came in and helped me build the lab.

And, and we've just been learning is just always learning. And, but as we've gone through these six years building on the work of those, you know, those first graduate students, David Van Coleman on the computational side, and Cameron Van Swat on the experimental side. It's just been really amazing to see what the students have been able to do, where we've been able to take that.

And I found that the, one of the key reasons I have the underwater measurement facility, in addition to the research of trying to test these machine learning algorithms, is that students can often, especially women students can often see an easier transition into AI, can learn to do measurements than I can learn to code. So I get them in the door with the AI can learn to do measurements, but then of course, they have to learn how to code because they have to analyze the, and one of my, undergraduate students, young lady who got her bachelor's, Caitlin Terry, she went to work for Jasco Applied Sciences.

There, kind of like MD acoustics. And they're letting her work remotely from Portland, where her husband has a full time job, and that makes all the difference anyway. But she wrote me and she said, thank you for convincing me, that I could code because I know more more computer coding than anyone on my team, so I'm always the one that's doing it.

Yeah. So, but again, they, they it's for some reason it's really hard for them to see themselves as computer people because they've been in computer science classes with people who just know so much more. And so, again, it's easy to think that you don't fit there because you're new. But it's it's really been a huge blessing to see that and development.

So and making progress and but it's been it's been very intense time. Yeah. I can definitely relate to that. Where coming in the measurement seemed a lot less daunting. But eventually you have to process them. And then, but then. Right. I also work remotely, and it's very rare that I get to take measurements, that I have a project that's near me, and most of my job will be doing calculations and writing reports and that stuff, and, those were things that I was I was not confident coming in, but that we learned very thoroughly at BYU for the technical writing classes and computational methods, so many computational methods classes.


I accidentally ended up as a Ta for one of the classes, which ended up being really good for me. And and that has been very applicable to, a flexible, remote career where I can I can work on code and have my toddler on my lap, but I cannot go out into the field and have my toddler on my hip.

So yeah, so true. I'm sure it makes a huge difference with my very first, daughter is a bit overwhelmed. I went to a lactation specialist and I was exhausted and wondering what the future would be like, and she said the wisest thing. She said that if if science and engineering really want women, they have to learn to provide flexibility when they have young children.

So I am so grateful that I had that opportunity. I'm grateful that you guys have that opportunity as well to work remotely. And and nowadays it's it's, you know, it's much more straightforward. And, having computational skills really even makes that much easier because you don't necessarily have to physically be in a lab or something. You get that great coming in.

This is definitely not something I ever had expected. I remember we did a panel at BYU with, quite a few people, and I had asked, you know, well, you know, what's out there for somebody who wants to be a parent, you know, in terms of part time or remote and acoustics, or is that something that's really possible?

And at that time, Doctor Sommerfeld says it's not very common. And then, I mean, it was really a few years later with Covid and everything, that it became much more common and and that was a massive blessing for my family that I can be there with them and, and still spend the time that I need, and my career.

That means a lot to me. It has thus, and I think we'll give a shout out to Mike for being willing or willing to do this and to to to branch and embark on this adventure of having remote employees and providing that flexibility of how many hours a week, depending on how many hours you work, depending on, you know, your current lifestyle.

I mean, it it it makes all the difference, really does. Yeah. Having a boss who's willing to you come in and say, my family is changing and I need this, and who's willing to work with that can make a really big difference. And it's not always going to work out. Sometimes it's the wrong timing. But, someone who is willing to come to the table with those conversations, it's not.

That's the thing that I would like to see become more common. That's I don't think there yet. And I one thing that I keep wishing would be a thing is reentry. Reentry ships like you have student internships, but what if you had reentry ships for people who had for a time stepped away from working to be parents or for other obligations, and they could get in kind of like students get in with internships.

So if I was in charge of the world, I would make reentry ships. So that's really smart. Got a long term maternity unpaid maternity leave. Yeah, yeah. It works. What other progress do you hope to see in the fields for women and just in general? So I think with regards to acoustics, I'm really hoping that it will become more high profile because I think a lot of people out there love music, love audio, love different things, or they love science and they, you know, they're just wondering like, what career could I have where I could like learn new things every day and, you know, think about sound.

And most people just don't even know acoustics, like, is a career path. And so I'm really hopeful that that through outreach efforts like this, that that more people can know, oh, hey, this this is a career, you know, and, it's can be very fascinating. It's fun to look at the acoustics wheel and see how many ways you can get into this.

You usually stumble into it, but it would be nice if there's a little more known. How do you know that this is a thing you could actually do different? Well, I think that's, all the questions we have. Thank you so much, Doctor Nielsen, for meeting with us today. And it's, it's a pleasure to get to talk to you now.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and to see how all of your careers are progressing and the opportunities that you have had. I think it just really makes a huge difference, to provide that flexibility and to continue pushing this forward and to help motivate people. You know, that's one of the things I enjoy most about mentoring students and research is the opportunity to see the growth and to really, like, help them capture a vision of their potential, you know, and that you know, helping them do hard things.

So then they know they can do different things and really go where they want to be. And so I hope that that idea of the growth mindset can be more, implemented both in education and in careers, because I think that really ultimately is the thing that will help women stay in the most is if they if they have that idea of I'm learning and growing and becoming and I can do this with lots of hard work and these resources that I have, as opposed to somehow I I'm not smart enough or I don't want.

So I think great progress has been made and I'm really excited to see where it goes in the future. So thank you for having me. Thanks. Thanks.