Recovery Diaries In Depth

A Musician's Journey Through Grief and Anxiety with Jerzy Jung | RDID Ep. 104

• Recovery Diaries • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Ever wondered how anxiety and creativity intersect? Join us as we sit down with the multi-talented Jerzy Jung, who opens up about her personal battles with anxiety, fear, and shame in the world of performing arts. Discover how the devastating loss of her father to cancer became a turning point in her mental health journey and creative endeavors. As we discuss the art of accepting compliments as gifts rather than dismissals, we explore the powerful impact of therapy and the shift in societal attitudes towards mental health from the late 90s to today.

Reflect on the enduring nature of anxiety with us, as Jerzy shares insights from her essay "Everything Will Kill You: Anxiety, Fear, and Shame on Stage." Growing up in a loving family didn’t shield her from the burden of hiding her anxieties, mistakenly believing they were uniquely hers. As we navigate through her stories, we uncover the hereditary aspect of anxiety and the importance of self-kindness and humor in managing mental health challenges. From childhood fears to the irrational worries amplified by shame, we learn how to focus on what can be controlled in the present.

Finally, we delve into the transformative power of music as a means of connection and self-discovery. Jerzy’s journey through grief and healing emphasizes the importance of showing up authentically, especially in creative pursuits like songwriting. With host Gabriel Nathan as a comforting anchor, we unpack the complexities of grief, control, and acceptance. This episode serves as a heartfelt reminder of the importance of presence, authenticity, and embracing our true selves, even amidst life's inevitable hardships.

https://www.instagram.com/jerzyjung/

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

https://oc87recoverydiaries.org/

Gabe Nathan:

Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here On Recovery Diaries In-Depth. Today, we're going to be talking to Jerzy Jung. She's a singer, songwriter, pianist and actor from New Jersey. Jersey wrote an essay for our site in 2015 called Everything Will Kill you Anxiety, Fear and Shame on Stage, and we're going to be talking to Jersey about anxiety, fear and shame. Also about the loss of her father to cancer and how she's coped with that loss and the various challenges that life has thrown her way in the decades since she wrote her essay.

Gabe Nathan:

Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are in their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed and what new things have emerged. We are so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiariesorg. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment and change.

Gabe Nathan:

You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay or film. And you can find this podcast pretty episode, essay or film. And you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere. You get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes and grow and, of course, make sure to like, share and subscribe.

Gabe Nathan:

Jerzy, thank you so much for being here on Recovery Diaries In Depth. It is a joy to be sitting here talking to you.

Jerzy Jung:

You as well. I'm getting emotional. I'm so grateful that you reached out, because this was I don't know if I can imagine a more perfect combination of all my favorite things, so it was so special to get this call, thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

Oh man. Well, I want to tell you so. When I first started working for Recovery Diaries, I was working at a locked inpatient psychiatric hospital during the day and I would come home and I would edit essays at night, like on a very, very part-time basis. I would be working with maybe two or three writers here and there, and you were one of the first writers with whom I worked, and the essay that you wrote, which we're going to be talking about a little later and which you're going to be reading aloud a little later, which I'm so excited about, it's so. It has such a unique voice, and I think that's a very appropriate thing to say, because you have such a unique voice, singing voice and the way that you compose lyrics and the way that you express yourself. It was just really a joy to work on. I don't think I ever told you that, so I wanted to tell you that now and just embarrass you publicly. I thought that that would be a good way to start.

Jerzy Jung:

Thank you. Thank you so much. It's no embarrassment at all. I once had a friend who caught me not fully receiving a compliment and she gave me really simple instruction that I've always taken and she said all you have to do is say thank you, I received that.

Gabe Nathan:

Oh man, I'm going to pocket that.

Jerzy Jung:

It's good, right? Because... so thank you. I receive it very much.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, but okay, you're welcome, and I also want to hear what you were going to say before about why is that hard?

Jerzy Jung:

Oh yeah, awesome, thank you for asking. I love this question.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah.

Jerzy Jung:

I think it's a deservingness thing for a lot of us. Someone gives us a really nice compliment and a piece of us says that's not me, I'm not that good, and so a part of us is uncomfortable accepting the oh, this person's being so generous to me. I can't simply just have this right. I have to give something back. I'm not enough, it's not safe for me to receive, but when we give somebody a really cool birthday present and we've worked really hard, no one wants someone then to take the gift and like throw it away like a hot potato. And so I think words, kind words, are gifts in that way. And so what do you do when you get a gift? You don't say oh no, I don't want it. You look at it, you hold it and you say this is so lovely. Thank you so much.

Gabe Nathan:

I received this.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, I received, so it was the best advice. And my boyfriend and I actually both can struggle to really believe receive. And so we have a little bit where if I give him a nice compliment and I notice maybe he's not like fully taking it, I'll be like where'd you just put that? And we both, we both sort of point to our heart and we sort of mime. I put it right here and I did hear it and I kept it.

Gabe Nathan:

Oh man, that's, it's a wonderful practice and it's a wonderful thing to be mindful of what we, what we do with those compliments, what we do with those, because they are gifts. They are little gifts and I wonder if there's also something to do with anxiety, that when we, when we receive a compliment, it's like, oh well, what if it's disingenuous? What if they're just soothing my ego? What if they didn't really mean it? What if? Because that's, what if?" is the big anxiety question right? And everything starts with what if? And I wonder if you have that experience too. I know that's true for me. What if they're bullshitting me? What if they're telling me what I want to hear?

Gabe Nathan:

So, yeah, what do you think?

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, thank you for asking that. These are such cool questions. Where I am right now, I've gotten myself to the place where I just say, well, why would they go to all that trouble making something up?

Gabe Nathan:

That's a lot of work to bullshit me like that.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, like why would they?

Jerzy Jung:

That's a lot of trouble. Why would they do that? And that's taken time because, of course, the what-if voice wants to just put us in the worst possible light, wants to tell the worst story, wants to keep us in this familiar place of the world is bad and I am less than, so I guess maybe I started using my powers as a writer to challenge these stories and I was like this story sucks. I feel bad when I tell this one. Like, what's another? Because I don't know, I really don't know, like maybe they don't mean it, but I'll never know that. So I'm like, if I'll just never really know, why don't I pick the story? That's the fun one, so...

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and you have the power to do that, and that's, that's a lovely thing to recognize, right? Because mental illness wants to take our power away and it wants to shove us out of the driver's seat and say, no, fuck you, I'm driving, Um, but really we can say no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can drive this car and I can make a choice to go down this road. I don't have to go down negativity alley. I can go down not positivity highway, but maybe like reality-based lane. You know, and I think so much of my struggle with mental illness is reality testing and asking myself questions like well, would someone go through all that effort to bullshit you? Isn't it? Is it possible that they're actually being genuine? Are you maybe overthinking this? Are you maybe telling yourself a story that you've told so many times that you believe it? But it may not be true? And I wonder what is your experience with? Do you have to reality test yourself?

Jerzy Jung:

I'm laughing right now because it's so much. It's so much and I love... Before I answer that, I just want to spotlight how much I enjoyed what you said. Maybe you said something. I've told myself the same story so many times that I believe it, and I thought that was so powerful and smart that you said that. So I wanted to just give a thumbs up to that, because that's a lot of it sometimes is, this was never true, but I told myself this I got the wrong idea and then it cemented. I have to reality test all the time. This morning, you know, the negative tape started playing of who are you to be a guest on a podcast? You're not going to do it right.

Gabe Nathan:

I was just going to ask if you're, are you doing it right now, cause I am.

Jerzy Jung:

I did it all morning because and and I started to get a little sassy with it I do a mixture of like sass and love when I go to that place and so, first of all, that voice started going before this interview. That was just like who are you to do this? You're not, you don't have anything good to say. And I have this thing where, when I feel that I'm like, "Whatcha doing?" To that voice, I'm like

Gabe Nathan:

Hey, gurl.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah. And then the voice is like well, I don't know. I'm just kind of like shoving all things that are good down the toilet bowl and I'm like, oh, let's see how's that going for you, do you like that? How'd that go the last time like...

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah.

Jerzy Jung:

And I'll also ask the question because I I have to give compassion when that happens, because I used to try to just be like shut up, shut up, stop it. That didn't work. There was still this sensitive part of me that was crying for something different. So, um, I give love. I have a couple phrases I'll use a lot. One is , and number two is I'll say to myself I love you, you care so much.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, right, yeah.

Jerzy Jung:

Because a lot of anxiety is. I just care so much I want this to go well, so badly, and I'm terrified that I'm not going to perform, that I'm not going to show up, that I'm going to let people down all of it. So my reality testing a lot is just really like sass mixed with love, like, oh, I see you're trying to, like, you know, trying to put it all down the toilet bowl again, aren't you?

Gabe Nathan:

That's cute, nice work, if you can get it.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah. And then I'll also say to myself okay, I hear you, do you want to stay here? That's one of my favorite questions to ask to myself. All right, I'm not going to shame you, but like, do you want to stay here? And always the answer I feel from inside is definitely not, most definitely not.

Gabe Nathan:

Okay. So first thing that I want to say is I hope that you will consider writing a song called Sass and Love about that kind of inner monologue and that work that you're doing inside to talk to that voice. The other thing is you sound like someone who's been in therapy for a very long time. Is that true?

Jerzy Jung:

That is true, it is.

Gabe Nathan:

Okay, well, can you talk a little bit about that?

Jerzy Jung:

Of course, and actually, yeah, I guess that's right. So I resisted therapy for a long time. I actually the first time I ever went was in college, and it was because, yeah, it was. And you know what's interesting is you and I, you know we're the same generation and that was not as much of a thing, I think, as it is now, and so it was a little more mysterious. It wasn't like everyone you knew was going, so I didn't know you were going PS.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, right, yeah, and like now, it's just part of it, and I love that it's part of it, because I don't think there should ever be shame and shadow. You know, obviously people deserve their privacy, but I think it's cool that so many people are just like yeah, this is part of my wellness plan.

Gabe Nathan:

Or I can't talk now because I'm going to therapy in an hour. You know, can we reschedule this? It's just part of the human experience, and it was not when we were in college, for sure.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, so the first time I went was in college and it was because a previous boyfriend encouraged me to go, and so that was the first and I really enjoyed that. I think I went, for I started going maybe junior year and I went the entire time through college. I started going maybe junior year and I went the entire time through college, then sort of took a break. But when my dad got sick just the same week that we found out that he had cancer, I just knew, Um, and I made that call and I was like I need to go back, I definitely need to go back, and so that was, I guess, 2014 or 2015. Um, and then I'm sort of on a break, but I I've done some form of whether talk therapy, Reiki, energy healing, coaching, so yeah, pretty much since 2015, I've made having someone to talk to a part of my life yeah, and I I want to say one thing about the college mental health experience.

Gabe Nathan:

I don't know if you for your appointments if you went through the front door or the back door, but I will never forget when I finally worked up the nerve to go and make my first appointment, I went in through the main entrance of the health center and you know, if you remember you go into the health center. It's not the same anymore, obviously. But to the left was like the medical stuff and to the right were the counselor's office and there was a desk there and a receptionist and she and I um said what I was there for and I made the appointment and everything. And I was about to leave and she said oh, excuse me, by the way, next time when you come back for your appointment, please feel free to use the rear entrance because there's a lot of hedges and people won't be able to see you come in. And I was so like I was like, oh, okay, okay.

Gabe Nathan:

And I left right and I didn't realize until much later how fucked up that was that they were basically at the counseling center. They were basically telling you you know, here's the sneaky way to get in, so no one knows that you're going to therapy, which, like, why shouldn't anybody know that we're going to therapy? But again, this was the late 90s, into the early aughts, and it was a very different scene. I can't imagine them saying that to college students going to the counseling center now, and it just strikes me as a stark reminder of where we were and how far we've come.

Jerzy Jung:

I think yeah, so fascinating. I think the internet has helped a lot. You just see so much all over and I love that too. I just love that it's becoming more and more normal.

Gabe Nathan:

Okay, so I really want to talk about it. When you say the internet, do you mean social media?

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, yeah.

Gabe Nathan:

Okay, good, so let's. I'm really excited that you want to talk. You can like hear my voice all perked up now.

Gabe Nathan:

In my experience as a mental health and suicide awareness advocate, I hear people pull down their pants and take a dump on social media all the time about and talking about how deleterious it is and how awful it is and how it's bad for teens and how it's bad for this and that and how it's increasing depression and it's increasing eating disorders and comparison body image stuff and it's it's horrible. And who are struggling can find allies on social media living with all over the world. People can find families when their own families don't want anything to do with them because they're LGBTQIA+, for whatever the reason is, find information about things that they're scared to ask their parents or whomever, whomever. And I just feel that we miss so much when we make these like reductive statements about social media. We just like vilify it and I I would love to hear that's my take on it. But I want to hear from you what your experience has been, because we have grown up with this. You know in the same way. So, yeah, what's your experience been?

Jerzy Jung:

I think I can definitely see where it can be negative, where it can be harmful, and it's tough. I don't know what to say about how we keep people from the damaging parts. People from the damaging parts, um, cause, I definitely feel those do exist, but I do feel there's so much good, um, it has been so wonderful for me to just have a space where I can write about these things and then have other people see them, and I've developed some really amazing community because of social media.

Jerzy Jung:

On my private Facebook page, I gave myself a challenge to share something of value every day for 365 days minimum, and I'm on day 234 today, I think, and that's just been really, really good for my mental health. Now I keep that really private. That's just my personal Facebook page, so anybody that I don't know doesn't get to come in, and so I think, as a really sensitive person, I would probably have a lot of trouble if my socials weren't kind of kept behind my own safe gate. So, yeah, so I don't know that it's possible to vilify all of social media, because there's the kind that helps and there's the kind that can cause harm yeah, the kind that can cause harm. So maybe it's not about saying social media is the problem, but saying we just really always need to take care to do whatever we can to keep it healthy, keep it positive.

Gabe Nathan:

What did you share today? I'm just curious.

Jerzy Jung:

Oh, I haven't yet.

Gabe Nathan:

Are you okay to share that?

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, I haven't or actually, no, I usually post at night, um, but I can. I, uh, last night I posted a piece about my boyfriend, um, do you want me to read it?

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah!

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah? Okay, um, so, and some some days I'll post a piece of writing, other days I'll post a video, um, but my yesterday, uh, my boyfriend has just really been lovely this week, cause I've had a lot of stuff like this where I have to get on a call. You know, I have to be ready, um, and he's had an easier not fully easy week, but he's had less, um, things like this to do, and so so I wrote this piece that I'll read right now about, um, just the way he supported me and I wanted to sort of.

Jerzy Jung:

I had a big Zoom meeting to prepare for one where I had to show up and lead. I was rushing around the house with half wet hair gulping down Earl Grey tea. I had exactly enough time to finish blow drying, finish my cup of tea and sit down. Walter came over to me, gave me a hug and said let me feed you. He made brunch while I blow-dried. What a man.

Jerzy Jung:

Here's what not to do when someone, out of the kindness of their beautiful, pure heart, says let me feed you, don't feel guilty. It sours the sweetness that's being offered. Don't wonder if this could be real. It is real and it is happening. Don't jump out of the present moment, even if it's uncomfortable.

Jerzy Jung:

For many of us, receiving feels uncomfortable or unsafe. We feel like things are too good somehow. Like the other shoe will drop if we accept an amazing gift, like we'll be punished for letting our guard down. Don't apologize one million times, say oh, you don't have to do that. Or rush to promise you'll pay that person back. All of that is tossing the gift away like a hot potato. Hold a gift first. Treasure the shit out of it. It's not a hot potato, it's a warm one, meant to be held for a long time, meant to be turned over and over in your hands. Every bit of it felt and believed in.

Jerzy Jung:

Tomorrow, our neighbor is making us dinner. She's been offering to do this for over a month. This week we finally accepted. We're going to let her feed us. I know it's going to be lovely.

Jerzy Jung:

Grateful to this man for feeding me today. It was so kind and so pure that I almost didn't accept it At first. I hesitated, I'm pretty sure. I said, oh, that's okay, it can probably wait, I'm not that hungry. He said yes, you are, and I was. If someone looks at you with love in their eyes or a genuine desire to give and says let me feed you, let them Feel all of the complicated feelings that arise from letting yourself be cared for, from seeing yourself as worthy and deserving, from letting things feel beautiful for as long as you can and receive with every cell in your body, with your whole mind and your whole heart. I know it's scary. I know our minds want to jump right to. What if this gets taken away? That's an understandable fear, but we can do it. We can move through it and learn another way. Let yourself be fed and once you're full, like you've never been full before, you can feed others in the same pure and beautiful way. You deserve it. We all do. See you tomorrow.

Gabe Nathan:

Oh man, and treasure the shit out of it.

Jerzy Jung:

It's a warm potato.

Gabe Nathan:

Jerzy, thank you, and Walter, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for feeding this super cool human being. But what I heard over and over again in what you were reading and this is not me trying to be slick and do a great segue, but I heard anxiety, shame and fear. What if this thing gets taken away from me? I feel guilty about it. It's all there, everything that was in the title of your essay from 2014. It's 10 years and those things are still percolating and they're still bubbling in your brain. And that's the thing about mental health. We're never cured. There's no like recovery is. It's a road that we're on. We don't get out of the car and like, oh, we're here. All of that stuff's in there all the time. So if you're okay with reading again after reading that, I would love you to go into your essay. It is called Everything Will Kill You; Anxiety, Fear and Shame on Stage. And yeah, let's just hear it. I'm so excited.

Jerzy Jung:

I'm laughing right now because I just had the following thought I'm so nervous about writing this piece on anxiety. Okay, stop, rewind, let's think about this for a second. Still the body, quiet the mind. Breathe in for four counts, breathe out for eight. Ask yourself does this reaction truly fit the situation? If not, remember to be kind to yourself. Remember that shame is never helpful. Remember Now. Reframe the thought in your mind. Whatever you're worried about may be a challenge, but you can handle it. List the reasons why. Focus on facts and proof. Think of all the challenges you've successfully handled before and finally, whenever possible, lovingly laugh at yourself. This is not the end of the world. It's okay to take yourself less seriously. Plus, it's very likely that someday this struggle will be so far behind in your rear view that it will be just as hilarious as the time that you adorably weird and desperate five-year-old that you were made now what is famously known as the Dinosaur Plan.

Jerzy Jung:

My name is Jerzy Jung. I'm a singer, songwriter and piano player who also loves acting, dancing and music production. I've won awards for my writing and have also been too intimidated to return calls from interested people in the music industry. You can watch me on Netflix right now in a performance for a production company that took me three years to work up the courage to join. I want to be a professional artist more than I've ever wanted anything else in my life, but for most of my life I've been terrified to truly try to attain this goal. In other words, I just might be normal.

Jerzy Jung:

Anxiety runs in my family. I went through a period where I tried to really unpack this, to figure out why. These days I'm at a place where I just accept that this is our particular challenge to deal with. Somehow that acceptance of my history helps me to focus on what I can control the present and how I behave now. I was raised by two incredibly loving and attentive parents. Anytime my sisters or I came to them crying, they would stop, listen and reassure us. I remember my mom explaining concepts like death and sex and periods to us so that they wouldn't seem scary. My dad would have funny little philosophical talks with us, reminding us that it was okay to be ourselves despite what others around us were doing. We all had our share of personal quirks and challenges, but we also shared plenty of love, traditions and time to express our goofy creativity.

Jerzy Jung:

My problem was just that from a young age, I felt like my anxious feelings and fears were shameful and I should hide them whenever I could. I had myself convinced that it's okay to be yourself applied to everyone but me. I thought if people really got to know me, they'd realize how weird I was. I didn't know any other kids at school who worried about their ceiling fan turning into a monster overnight or their house burning down while they were asleep inside. I would get angry at myself for being weak or not normal and thus began a cycle that lasted for many years. Anxiety would lead to shame. Shame would lead to anger at myself. Anger would lead to silence, because I badly wanted to beat back the feelings on my own, without help from anyone. I was supposed to have it all together. Recently, I told my mom the story of the dinosaur plan and she said why didn't you tell me we could have sorted that out within five minutes plan? And she said why didn't you tell me we could have sorted that out within five minutes? We had a good laugh over it because, like many of the obsessive fears that have taken root in my head over the years, in hindsight it was pretty ridiculous. Shame, however, was the match that turned that situation into an uncontrollable fire.

Jerzy Jung:

The setting Mrs Kennedy's kindergarten class, stoy School, south Jersey. I'm five years old. Our teacher is introducing us to a group of ancient creatures called the dinosaurs. They were big, powerful, ferocious. Some ate just plants, but others ate other creatures. Oh, other creatures. Oh, once upon a time the dinosaurs were in charge. They roamed the earth doing big and sometimes scary dinosaur things. They probably had bloody battles in the mud. Some of them could fly. They died a long time ago.

Jerzy Jung:

After the dinosaur lesson, most of my friends took note of this information and then moved on with their regularly scheduled lives. They took naps on their brightly patterned towels. One lucky winner played the role of the nap fairy and tiptoed around the class tapping heads to put people to sleep. They ate their lunches and traded apples for cookies. They hugged stuffed dolls and made up their own songs. At playtime I lay down on my towel and looked up at the classroom ceiling, processing my personal takeaway from the lesson. Yes, the dinosaurs died, but Mrs. Kennedy never explicitly said that they weren't coming back. I did not nap that day. Why didn't I just ask if this was Sorry? Why didn't I just ask if this Sorry, I gotta go back. I'll go back a little bit of my towel and looked up at the classroom ceiling processing my personal takeaway from the lesson. Yes, the dinosaurs died, but Mrs. Kennedy never explicitly said that they weren't coming back. I did not nap that day. Why didn't I just ask if this was possible? Why didn't I tell someone that I needed help? I guess that even at five I knew that I. I guess that even at five I knew that what I was feeling had a different vibe to it.

Jerzy Jung:

Once I started thinking about the dinosaurs and the uncertainty of their return, I couldn't stop the thoughts from coming. We learned about what to do if you got lost at the park or at the mall. We learned about what to do if you got lost at the park or at the mall find a police officer or a kind adult. We watched movies about fire narrated by cartoon animals and made escape plans with our parents, but no one up to that point had ever covered dinosaurs with us. Was the dinosaur plan like the fire plan? Maybe, except no, they would all be outside of the house. It was enough to break a kid's spirit and inspire lunchtime cookie hoarding in case. This was in fact the day the dinosaurs came back. This was also one more thought to support my strengthening belief that the world just wasn't safe.

Jerzy Jung:

My anxiety was born of a long-held view that the world was dangerous. My anxiety was born of a long-held view that the world was dangerous, containing situations and people I wasn't capable of handling. I especially struggled with things that were uncomfortable or unknown. I was young. I lost both of my grandparents to cancer within a few years of one another, and my dad nearly died in a horrible car accident. To be upset by these events was natural. The difficulty for me was that, instead of coping and gradually moving on, I got caught in an endless feedback loop of worry and obsession, as usual, keeping as much of it to myself as I could.

Jerzy Jung:

My attempts to disguise my fears were not always effective. I went through about a year of intense separation anxiety, where I was so scared to be apart from my parents and the safety of my house that I often couldn't make it through a school day, sleepovers or birthday parties. Forget it. More often than not, I would wind up crying and calling my mom or dad to come pick me up early. I would begin each event in an excited, hopeful mood, but fear and panic would soon wash over me, and I could only be calmed by sliding into the back seat of the family car. I felt embarrassed, but the compulsion to escape back to what I was familiar with always won out. I ate my feelings too. Food was a comforting hobby, pleasurable and distracting. I also hid myself in books. I melted into other people's stories and lives, successfully shutting off the inner workings of my own mind.

Jerzy Jung:

This wasn't all bad. I became a strong reader and writer. My third grade class threw me a party for reading 100 books in a year. They went so far as to send me out of the room on a fake errand so that they could set things up. Even now I'm touched by this adorable treachery. My friend's father made homemade desserts. I was so proud to be recognized and accepted for doing something I loved so much.

Jerzy Jung:

So I went through about two decades of life as a high-functioning, anxiety-ridden person. Maybe this sounds familiar to you. I got through high school and college. I got a job. Things were basically okay. However, major life changes like graduations, moves or breakups tended to wreck me. Facing the unknown still caused major distress. My parents knew my patterns and would often ask was I eating right? Was I spending enough time with my friends? Was I making sure to go to my therapy appointments? For the most part, I did these things and in between, tough times, managed to accomplish a lot.

Jerzy Jung:

I combined my love of poetry and music and slowly became a songwriter, eventually proudly releasing independent music, slowly became a songwriter, eventually proudly releasing independent music. I ventured out to perform at open mics and piano bars. I made great friends. I smiled a lot. I tried my best to be sweet and polite and positive. I didn't always feel sweet or polite or positive. I started to realize that, even though I did have a real desire to be kind and connect through music with people in a happy, buoyant way, I also had just as big of a wish to write songs that explored all of the ugly, raging, terrified feelings I still fought with from time to time. You know the kinds of songs that make people at the restaurant you're playing in stop dead in their tracks, come right over to you and ask Would you mind playing something more upbeat? This has actually happened to me. Many times.

Jerzy Jung:

I feared what would happen if I came clean. I thought that writing the songs I really wanted to write might isolate me from others wanted to write might isolate me from others. I pictured playing shows to crowds who would smile at me kindly yet sadly, and then go home thinking that my set was a huge downer. That scared negative part of me asked who wants to listen to pop songs about eating disorders, depression and anxiety. It turns out a lot of people do. I wrote a song about my fear of graduating college, about losing the safety of my small school community as I walked out into the real world. I wrote about trying to distract myself from anxiety and depression by obsessing over the size of my body. I wrote a song that personified addiction and discussed how seductive checking out of real life can be. I started talking on stage about why I decided to write these songs and I got the best responses I had ever received. People came up to me after shows to tell me their own stories or to say they understood.

Jerzy Jung:

A dance teacher choreographed a piece using one of the songs. A dance teacher choreographed a piece using one of the songs. A writer devoted an entire blog post to another. The sentiments that I thought would alien times that I've fearfully prepared myself for tragedies that have actually never happened Every time I played it live. I would preface it with the dinosaur story. One night during a songwriting circle, my friend and fellow songwriter, Mike Clifford, dubbed that terrified preparation a dinosaur plan. I held on to that title because it helped me to laugh at myself.

Jerzy Jung:

In the spring of 2016, I was chosen as one of 15 singer-songwriters to be part of the pilot episode of a TV show called the Song. Each participant was invited to play an original song. During filming, I offered up one of my more positive songs. The one they wanted was Everything Will Kill You. Once again, I had doubted that my most personal music had a place in the world, but once again, people let me know that it did. I have never been more pleased to be proven wrong.

Jerzy Jung:

For years, my shame kept me stuck and imprisoned and caused me to deny myself the love and connection that could have helped me. I got lucky, though. I took a chance, started pulling the curtain back on all that I was feeling and got more acceptance than I ever thought was possible. I still struggle with anxiety and with a tendency to isolate myself when I'm going through a hard time, but my new identity as a songwriter is a constant reminder that I have another choice. Music is my bridge to other people, other perspectives and a much truer vision of who I am. Strong. Loved. No dinosaurs in sight.

Gabe Nathan:

Thank you so much for reading that and thank you so much for writing that. What was it like to revisit that again after so long? What's coming up for you? Yeah?

Jerzy Jung:

Well, first of all, thank you so much for your editing help on that, because you're welcome.

Gabe Nathan:

I'll just say you're welcome. Yes, yeah good.

Jerzy Jung:

Thank you for receiving, because you really did help take that to the next level. As I was reading, I could I remember the little places where you just refined. You know what I written and I appreciate your assists in that. Thank you, yeah, congratulations to us both. Yeah, man, and it's funny. So I it was moving reading that out loud. It was moving reading that out loud.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, it was moving reading that out loud, because I'll be really honest with you and say that I've not put in as much into my music as I want to be, and that kind of happened right after my dad died in 20,. My dad died in 2017. And I've I've been on an interesting ride as far as music and its place in my life and how much I believe in it, and so it was very tears were close to coming when I sort of read about how much I love music and it connects me to people because, yeah, it's. It's been a struggle to. It's been a struggle to believe in myself as a musician and that's not for lack of wonderful people in my life supporting me.

Jerzy Jung:

It's just about I love it so much but there's so much unknown in it that that is, there's nothing else in my life I think that I love so much but pushes me so much when it comes to fear and anxiety, because music just there's not really a roadmap for it. And so After my dad died, after my dad died, I really needed things to be predictable.

Gabe Nathan:

Yep.

Jerzy Jung:

And so much unpredictability came from watching him get sick. And then I was with him in the room when he passed and there was just a period where I couldn't handle anything. That wasn't super predictable and I took a break from really pouring into my music because I just felt too scared to do it. Yeah, I didn't quit entirely, but I really did stop focusing on it the way that I had, and it's funny it brings me to tears and that's that's good, because when we get off this call I'm going to sit with that and say, okay, like, all right, jung, you're, you're full of shit, like you're, you're really like you know, like you've been pretending that you don't love this as much as you do and you know, today Gabe Nathan helps you realize like you're kind of full of shit, like you love it.

Gabe Nathan:

I think Jerzy Jung helped her realize that. And look, let me tell you something, dude. Okay, a couple things Like. The first thing is I'm so very, very grateful to you for showing up here as your authentic self and not feeling like, oh, this is a thing, and I have to perform, and I got to have it all together and I've got to just like, oh, this is a thing, and I have to perform, and I got to have it all together and I've got to just like I've got to say all the right things. You're here, you're really here in this. I mean, we're 3000 miles apart, but you're really here in this room, in this space, in this time, and that's a really big deal.

Gabe Nathan:

And that's what so much of mental health advocacy is about, in my view. It's about being here. It's about being here with someone while they're struggling. It's about allowing someone to be with you while you're struggling and not having to pretend or not having to like have all the answers and I don't you know, sitting here watching you cry like I it's audio for the listeners, but I can see you, um, and there's that impulse in me to be like, oh, my god, when it's my turn, I better have the right things to say to her and I don't, because your truth about your relationship with music and your, that's yours and it's not for me to be like oh Jerzy, that's not true. You know, you got da-da-da-da-da and you had this and this, and I just saw a video of you a couple days ago rocking out at the piano and it's none of that matters. And also, no matter what I say, your father is still gone. I can't alter that reality.

Gabe Nathan:

What was going through my head was there's a Mark Twain quote for everything, and of course there's a Mark Twain quote for everything, and of course there's a Mark Twain quote for loss. He lost a daughter to spinal meningitis, his daughter, Suzy. I think she was 24 or 25. And he said it's amazing that a man can endure a thunderclap like that and still live. And you know you have endured your own thunderclap and you're still living and you're still like getting out of bed and putting your clothes on and making coffee and doing the thing, and that's, that's enough.

Gabe Nathan:

I think, um, and as far as you used the word quit, you said I didn't quit, um, but I did stop and I did. I would love to just surgically excise the word quitting from the human lexicon entirely. I think you know there have been times where I've gone like six years without writing, where I've you know I stopped doing plays in 2018. And like, it's not about quitting, it's about life is going in this direction or that direction for whatever the reason is, and sometimes it's of our own volition, sometimes not, sometimes there are external factors coming in, but like things are going to ebb and flow and you strike me as a very like ebb and flow kind of person and I hope that part of your sitting, with all of this after we talk, is just reminding yourself of that ebb and flow and that some things are going to rise at certain times and other times recede, and that that's okay. I don't know, that's just what's rolling around in my head after listening to you.

Jerzy Jung:

Thank you and I'm just. I just wanted to take a second and thank you for being such a warm presence. I the anxiety voice, of course popped up and was like you're going to do a bad job, but every part of me was like this is going to be a rad conversation because it's with you. So I need to just pause and offer you that praise, because I think you hold such a beautiful space and it's just you. You're calm and peaceful and your presence is grounded and it's lovely to be here speaking with you.

Gabe Nathan:

You should have seen me driving here today. You would have seen a very different presence.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, and I think that's important to bring up, right? Because we like our own experience of ourselves is like ah.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, yes.

Jerzy Jung:

But it's. I just want to thank you, for you know as much as we get in our own heads and we get down on ourselves. I just really appreciate you, thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

And I you. Yeah, the last question I have for you is it's hard because you wrote in your essay you know, my anxiety was born of a long held view that the world was dangerous, containing situations and people I wasn't capable of handling. And you know, not too long after you wrote this essay, you had to handle your father passing away. You had to have those fears confirmed. This world is a dangerous place and there are situations that are going to be incredibly difficult to handle. I don't even know if one handles death. I mean, it just happens and we're all like what you know. But I guess my question really is I don't even know if it's a question, but it's more of about. You know, you've experienced so much since you wrote this essay like and the fear that you won't be able to handle it, juxtaposed with what the world actually is like and what your experience of going through those things has been like.

Jerzy Jung:

Thank you for asking that, and you know it's funny what? What I didn't confess in that piece, but which is true, is that one of my greatest fears my entire life was that my dad would die. I didn't have the same fear about my mom, because in our family a lot of the men died too young and I knew that, and so there were just stories about oh you know, pop Pop died before you were born. You know, just a couple men in my family line died early and I knew that and I think from a young age I just had that fear of, like an obsessive fear, my dad's going to die, and yeah, so that was definitely. It was. It was the greatest fear realized, and it's funny, when you're thrust into it you just don't have a choice, it just is. And so writing Everything Will Kill you was a reminder. It's not like hard things are not going to happen, they super are. It's not like hard things are not going to happen, they super are. But it almost isn't any use worrying, because when that happened, that was so how do I want to put it? Um, I just realized how much time I had wasted worrying about the future. You know it didn't do anything for me and worrying about what if my dad dies I will say this to anyone listening who's wondering that didn't make it any easier when he got sick. So the years I spent obsessing my dad's going to die my dad's going to die it still felt like shit when he got sick and he died, and so that was a lesson for me that I tried to share with anybody that ever wanted to talk about it, because I figured, you know, if this had to happen to our family, I'll take whatever I can from it to help somebody else. And yeah, I will say, as an anxious kid who worried my whole life, that worry still didn't give me anything. When he actually got sick, I still had to feel every feeling associated with seeing him go through treatment and holding his hand across the table at lunch one day while he's crying because he can't stop thinking about how his diagnosis is terminal and being in the room with him when he passed. It still hurt. You passed, it still hurt.

Jerzy Jung:

So I think sometimes some of these worries, when we have issues with anxiety, like some of them, we can't control, like there were many times where you you could have said to me can you stop? And I would have told you no, I can't stop. I actually am unable. I'm caught in this loop. I can't stop With many years and with getting tools and with practice. Now, on most days I can stop.

Jerzy Jung:

And yeah, I would say, these days I just remind myself of that you worried for so many years and it didn't make it not hurt, that you worried for so many years and it didn't make it not hurt. So you were trying to protect yourself from future hurt by suffering today and it didn't work. And my gosh, what a big amount of lack of control that goes along with loving somebody, um, and but it really did teach me that in a lot of ways there was nothing I could do. But I try to say that in a way that is encouraging, because I hate it when people just sort of like are all flipping and they're like you can't control anything and I'm like that's not, are all flipping and they're like you can't control anything and I'm like that's not, that's not cute, that doesn't help. You know it doesn't. I hate, as a person with anxiety, I hate when people are just like you can't control anything. You can't control people. I'm like get out of here.

Gabe Nathan:

Right and thank you. Thank you for the newsflash. I fucking know that.

Jerzy Jung:

Right, like, like why do you think you're helping? You're not helping, but there's a big difference between you can't control people and like, yeah, you can't control people.

Gabe Nathan:

Right.

Jerzy Jung:

And so just knowing that, as horrific as it seems like that, that's a piece of what we sign up for when we love. Because a lot of my anxiety has been around what if I lose things and people that I love? Um, it just helped me to know like, yes, this is part of the package. Right, yes, it is, and this is a shitty part of the package, but it doesn't make the beautiful stuff not worth it and you can do it.

Jerzy Jung:

Um, for all the books I've ever read, my favorite is still Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway. It's my favorite. It's, you know, it's a classic and I feel like it never goes out of style because at the heart of that book and, excuse me one second, I have it right on my shelf. So I want to name the author, even though I know that she's passed, but just to give her the credit she deserves. Susan Jeffers, Ph. D., wrote Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway, and her whole thing is just just keep on working, on cultivating within yourself that if the thing I'm fearing happens, I will get through it, I can handle it.

Jerzy Jung:

Yeah, I can handle it and that's helped me immensely and as much as I would change it in a second if I could bring my dad back, because I've moved through the phase of accepting that this was part of his story and our family's story. For him to pass when he did Um, I just say, okay, like what? What can I learn from this? What can I share with other people? How can I take what happened and just turn it into help for anybody that can be helped? And and that was it it was like we had to give him permission to go. That was part of it.

Jerzy Jung:

So we're standing around his bed, we got to bring him home, he got to die at home and giving him permission to go, and just every step of that oh, this is the worst fear I used to obsess over when I was eight realized like this sucks and I'm doing it and I don't want to be doing it, but I'm doing it and I'm moving through it, and so that's it. So when we're anxiously fearing this might happen, this might happen, just saying I don't want that to happen, it's kind of a waste of my time to dwell.

Gabe Nathan:

But if the worst were to happen, I have evidence that that I can get through it yeah, which you didn't have around the time of writing this essay for a lot of things, and that's, I feel like that's a huge part of what's changed for you. That thunderclap has come and you're still standing, and what you were saying also reminds me a lot of what my mother used to say to me when I was learning about death as a kid and talking to her about how scared I was about her dying and about me dying and all of that. And she said you know, Gabriel, if you spend your entire life worried about that, you're not going to enjoy life and it's going to take so much from you. And I just ignored what she said and I've just worried about it all the time.

Speaker 3:

It's hard.

Jerzy Jung:

It's so easier said than done. It is, it is.

Gabe Nathan:

But it's a process. It's a whole lifelong process of feeling that fear and that scared and letting yourself feel it and putting it aside for a bit. And so you know I'm going to revisit that again later and I know it's going to come back later, but I can't live with it in the forefront. Um, or it'll just be too much. I'll just overpower everything. So, well before we say farewell, I would love you to sing us out, if you wouldn't mind, with the song Everything Will Kill you. It's a favorite of mine thank you so much. (Jerzy performs song.)

Gabe Nathan:

Goddamn, god damn. I always told people I wanted to be. Sometimes I want to be a dj and after a really amazing song plays, just hit the mic and go fuck, but then my career would be very short. Um so wonderful, jersey. Thank you for performing that for us and for being here today. Where can people find you and your music?

Jerzy Jung:

Oh, thank you so much. This has just been. I'm a writer. There's not words for how special this was, so thank you so so much. You're welcome. People can find me on Instagram. My handle is Jerzy Jung. You can find my music on Bandcamp and I'm working to get it out on streaming platforms as well.

Gabe Nathan:

So I would say those are the best places, awesome. Thank you so so much, and be well, let's do this again some time.

Jerzy Jung:

Thank you so much.

Gabe Nathan:

Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. Very special thank you to Jerzy Jung singer, songwriter, pianist and actor from New Jersey, now living in LA. What a voice, what a heart, what a human being. So grateful to her for sharing her time, her talent and her empathy with us here today on Recovery Diaries In-Depth. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiariesorg. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos and content about mental health, empowerment and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.

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