Recovery Diaries In Depth

A College Professor Breaks Mental Health Stigma with Peter Leman | RDID Ep. 106

• Recovery Diaries • Season 1 • Episode 6

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What happens when a professor decides to break the silence on mental health within their academic community? Peter Leman, a writer and English professor from Utah, joins us to share his courageous journey of speaking openly about his struggles with depression and anxiety. His heartfelt essay not only resonated with many but sparked a movement towards empathy and understanding among students and faculty alike. Discover how the power of storytelling can transform lives and create supportive environments in places where stigma often prevails.

Throughout our conversation, we look at the vital role of support systems during moments of crisis. From the unexpected intervention of a gentle Bernese dog named Nebo to the profound impact of recognizing suicide risk among loved ones, these personal stories underscore the importance of being a safe haven for those in need. We discuss how proactive communication and direct engagement can be life-saving, especially for students far from home who may be struggling silently. By fostering awareness and equipping young people with the tools to support their peers, we can make a significant difference in preventing tragedies.

Finally, we delve into the challenges faced by faculty in supporting student mental health amidst an already demanding academic environment. Peter candidly shares the emotional toll of balancing personal and professional responsibilities, particularly in the shadow of the COVID-19 pandemic. As we explore the necessity of compassion and presence without the pressure to fix everything, you'll hear inspiring stories of advocacy and change. We leave you with a reminder of the importance of creating inclusive environments and invite you to explore additional resources and stories of empowerment on our website, Recovery Diaries.

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

https://oc87recoverydiaries.org/

Gabe Nathan:

Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. I'm delighted to have as my guest for today Peter Lehman. He's a writer and English professor living in Utah and he's doing wonderful things in his classroom to destigmatize mental health by openly disclosing his own challenges with depression and anxiety.

Gabe Nathan:

Each week we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are in their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiariesorg. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay or film, and you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere. You get your podcasts.

Gabe Nathan:

We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes and grow and, of course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Peter Lehman, thank you so much for being here. It is a delight to see your face. I know this is just going to be audio only so other people can't see your face, but I can, and when I was editing your essay back in 2019, all of our editing work is just done over email, so I really don't have a chance to communicate with people by face and voice, and it's just such a wonderful opportunity to share space with you in this way.

Peter Leman:

Well, thank you so much. I truly appreciate it and, yeah, it's nice to reconnect after a few years.

Gabe Nathan:

So you are a university professor in Utah, correct?

Peter Leman:

Yes, that's right.

Gabe Nathan:

Okay, and that's who you were when you wrote this essay for us. And one of the things that's odd for me about working with writers and everyone is coming to either mental health advocacy or just sharing their story from a different perspective. For some people, it's their very first time talking publicly. Some people are quote like professional mental health advocates and it's their career, it's their business. Um, I never know what happens to people after we hit publish and we publicize their essay and you know it lives on the website forever. Um, but part of the joy of doing this podcast is reconnecting with people and finding things out about what has transpired in the last few years. And my first question to you is one of the things I was curious about when I was rereading your essay to prepare for today, just to re-familiarize myself with it. Did you receive any pushback from the university or from anyone individually maybe a colleague after publishing your essay, because I suddenly felt this surge of anxiety about that. Oh Good God, did Pete have any negative repercussions? I just want to know None.

Peter Leman:

Actually, I mean that's a really good question, but I've received zero pushback. It's only ever been positive, at least in the sense that people were, you know, express gratitude for the essay, for the effect that it had on them, but I never received any pushback whatsoever, I think. Yeah, I mean I got emails from university administrators, I got emails from our counseling center. I get emails from students from faculty, from alumni, and it was all positive. So a lot of it was sad, of course, because the response was often thank you for sharing your story, can I share mine? And of course, you know, I, I invite them to, and, and often those stories are quite sad, but it was, it was overwhelmingly positive.

Gabe Nathan:

I'm I'm really glad to hear that and I I it's so interesting to me that you use the word sad to describe people coming to you with their own stories, because of course it's not the fact of people coming to you with their own stories, because of course it's not the fact of people coming to you with their own stories, that's joyful and wonderful.

Gabe Nathan:

But of course it's the content and it reminds me a lot of how our site got started. So our site was an outgrowth of a documentary film that was made in 2008 or 2009 about our founders' mental health challenges, and he took this film to film festivals all around the country and even internationally, and at Talkbacks it was constantly people saying I watched your film and then wanting to share their own stories.

Peter Leman:

And it's just like that's the power of this, right. I mean, that's the power of of getting these stories out there. Is that it, it? It enables other people, it helps them see, oh, maybe this is a step that I can take toward healing Right, sharing my story with someone who who understands, someone who's going to listen and uh, yeah, and also.

Gabe Nathan:

I look at it too as a step of I sometimes use the analogy of an egg that we all have these little shells around us, right, and it just takes a little tap, tap, tap on that shell for that bird to crawl out and go me too, because we really I don't know so.

Gabe Nathan:

So I have depression, you have depression and depression. In spite of what we know about depression you can name all the statistics of how many people live with it in America, how many people live with it internationally I still feel isolated, I still feel alone, and I mean you have that experience as well?

Peter Leman:

Oh, absolutely, absolutely no.

Peter Leman:

That exact thought has occurred to me that so many people are being more and more open about this, which is wonderful, and yet, yeah, I mean when the depression kicks in, when the episode comes on, yeah, you feel completely alone and it's hard to remember or to sort of yeah, to remember that, even though other people are out there or that talk about today and wondering what I would share.

Peter Leman:

What's happened over the last few years has this incredible ability to sort of change your perception of reality in the moment when I've had episodes where and it's whether it's that I feel completely alone or I feel just so dark and that nothing has meaning, and I'm in that space and it just feels like it's always going to be like this, it will always be like this, and then when I come out of it, I realize, oh okay, I'm fine, I'm okay, that's not the case. But in that moment I mean it's really striking to me and I wish I understood better kind of what was happening neurologically, but it feels like I'm literally seeing the world differently in that space. And yeah, and I think that isolation is a huge part of that Whatever's going on there, that perception of experience, of a sense of loneliness feels so real in that moment right, and it's really hard to get beyond that.

Gabe Nathan:

My sense of it is that depression is almost dysmorphic. It really does alter your perception of self, of environment, of the feelings of your loved ones. Everything gets invalidated or turned on its head and it feels so fucking real. Yeah, totally Anything. You're impervious to anything anybody says, to any form of like I said earlier statistics, and this is how many people are suffering from it. And depression an episode is not forever and things will change and things will get better. You can negate anything and it almost feels like you're driving behind.

Peter Leman:

You're driving a car and depression just pushes you out of the driver's seat and says I'm driving now and you're just sitting there, yeah, and you can't get control back until I don't know, until you've waited long enough or until the right moment comes, the right intervention comes. It just depends until the right moment comes, the right intervention comes.

Gabe Nathan:

It just depends, and that is one of the. To me it's one of the powerful tragedies of suicide because in a way, you rob yourself or the individual who takes their own life is robbed of the chance to get through that. They've almost been swallowed up by that dysmorphia and I wonder if you've had experiences like that that you feel comfortable talking about.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, actually I hadn't planned on sharing this, but now that you bring it up, this was a couple of years before I wrote this essay. I think a couple of years before I wrote this essay. I think I was just really struggling. I don't remember the circumstances, I don't know that that matters, but I found myself in one of these episodes where I was just deeply, deeply depressed and struggling and feeling that isolation, feeling that sense of you know, that dysmorphic sense of you, know not I mean detached from reality, but as though we're in a different reality, right, and I remember talking to my wife and one of the things that usually helped was getting out. We live next to a mountain and I'll go running, I'll go trail running, I'll get the exercise, I'll get the blood pumping, the endorphins pumping, and so I got out, got up on the mountain, and it wasn't helping, nothing was helping.

Peter Leman:

And I got to this point where I was just feeling just so dark and such a panic that I picked up a rock and started cutting my arm with it. And I don't know, I don't know why, I don't know that. I can explain that or that if it needs explanation, but it was just. I was just sort of in this dark, desperate place and cut myself pretty badly and then sort of, you know, seeing the blood started feeling a bit of shock and realizing, oh, you know, this is a problem. And I found this rock to sit on on the trail and I was sitting there for a few minutes taking some deep breaths, trying to relax, trying to come back to this big, beautiful Swiss Bernese dog came around the corner and just got right up in my face and this dog just immediately just got its big nose in my face and licked my face as if to say I love you, I love you, I love you. And then went on its way you, I love you, I love you. And then went on its way and that pulled me out, like that was.

Peter Leman:

I mean, that was kind of a miracle, right, I mean, I, I I didn't expect that, I couldn't have anticipated that, um, but it was exactly. I don't know, it was what I needed in that moment and uh, and to have just this completely loving animal. It didn't know who I was, it didn't care, it just wanted to lick my face and say hi, and then it went about its business and I and I, and it helped me kind of reground myself and kind of come out of that, get home and talk to my wife and kind of get the help that I needed to to, you know, understand what had happened and and to, um, not let it happen again. So, uh, I mean, and I I don't know if, if that dog hadn't shown up, you know, I don't know what would have happened.

Peter Leman:

I, like I said, I was in a little bit of a state of shock given what I'd done. Uh, so, um, but but in that moment, I don't know, when you asked that's, that was a story that came to mind in that moment. It was just this kind of beautiful canine intervention, natural born therapy dog.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, yeah, I found out later her name was Nebo. She lived down the street from us and she actually got lost in our yard once, and so I got to kind of save her and take her home once as well.

Gabe Nathan:

It's a reciprocal life saving.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Gabe Nathan:

And I wonder, you know, if that wasn't life licking your face, saying I love you, I love you, I love you.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and I'm, I'm grateful for that and and yeah, and when you, when we think about people who don't or who end up in that place, it's just heartbreaking.

Peter Leman:

When there are cases when there isn't someone or something there to kind of help those people, and what I do, given the fact that my own children have mental health struggles as well and so many of my students, that moment, right that, knowing what that place is like and knowing how powerful it was for me to have you know something show up and kind of pull me out of it. I, you know, I worry about people who get to that place and maybe don't have something to pull them out of it, right, maybe don't have that, and I think that's part of what motivates me to try to you know, help students and others kind of prepare to sort of be, you know, prepared to you know deal with those kinds of situations To put themselves. I mean, I didn't consciously put myself in a situation where you know an animal was going to help me, a situation where you know an animal was going to help me, but but I can imagine others putting themselves in a situation where you know they couldn't get a friend or a family member or somebody you know who who can respond when they need it. Another, another experience. And I have a family member I'll I'll just be quick with this but a family member who and this was even longer ago, but who suicidal and was in a really, really panicked, desperate state.

Peter Leman:

And I was in a different state and somebody told him his ex-girlfriend and this was part of what precipitated it, but she convinced him to call me and I got him on the phone and just tried to keep him on the phone and just tried to keep him talking. And keep him talking and got another phone and had my wife call family members and friends and I kept him talking until I got him home and waiting, there were family members ready to to help him and sort of catch him. Um and uh, that was. That was really hard, cause I wasn't there. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't there. But but one of the things that he said later was how, how much it meant to him to realize, uh, how quickly uh people were ready to to to be there to catch him, how quickly we responded. And it wasn't just me, it was my parents, it was my other siblings, like we were there.

Peter Leman:

I'm really grateful for my family. We're not perfect, but we have each other's backs in a crisis and it scares me that there are people who don't have that right, who don't have that kind of, and so that's, I don't know, one of the things that I try, hope I can be, you know, for a student who maybe doesn't have that. And that's one of the difficult things when students, you know, are at university, they're far from home, they, you know, maybe don't know who they can turn to if they get to that place. And so I hope that I can, and I and other professors and others, as we kind of continue working on this issue and continue, you know, promoting conversations and talking about it and encouraging awareness, that kind of functionally as a university, we can sort of be that safety net, we can sort of be there for those students, because too often they don't have that support when they most need it.

Gabe Nathan:

I have a lot to say about what you just said, but one of the things that really stands out to me is this idea of being a safe person, and I think that there are people who and this isn't put down to anyone, but like, if I put a certain insignia on my social media profile, or I wear a certain pin, or I do this, I do that, then I'm showing that I'm a certain pin, or I do this, I do that, then I'm showing that I'm a safe person. You're showing it on day one in your classroom. I think your students know that immediately about you, and we'll get to your essay a little later, where you write about how you do that and why. And you know you are that that big dog in the woods, um, for your students, I think it's it's very obvious and very clear and very powerful, um, and I think they have a lot to be thankful for um setting foot in your classroom.

Gabe Nathan:

The other thing I wanted to say well, it's the truth is your story about your family member and everybody kind of rallying around them demonstrates something that I think a lot of people don't know but really need to, and it's that anyone can prevent suicide. I think there are people who believe, well, that's the realm of crisis counselors, or mobile crisis or psychiatric emergency response units, or it's only the call takers at 988. It is not true. We you me, the sound engineer on the other end here, my neighbors across the street, my wife downstairs we are the front lines of suicide prevention in our own little communities of the people who we know, the people with whom we work, our families and our friends. We are the ones listening, we hear things, we see things, we notice things. And if we are educated and we know what to listen, for what to look for what to observe behavioral changes, things of that nature, we can intervene and we can prevent suicide. And I want people to feel empowered in that way and to have that knowledge Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Peter Leman:

I, yeah, I mean, as you're talking about that, literally, uh, friday night, saturday night, um, my daughter got a text from a friend that was unusual. It set off red flags for her and, and, uh, and she said I think we need to go visit this friend. And we asked, okay, what was going on? And she was saying how grateful she was for all of her friends it was this text thread and how she loves them all and appreciates them all. And she said she doesn't talk like this. This doesn't sound like her.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, it sounds like a goodbye. Something was wrong.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, it was a goodbye, and so we said, all right, load up. So we got in the car, picked up some other people and went to her house, made sure her parents were aware of what was going on, and my daughter went in and talked to her and she was writing notes, she was writing goodbye letters. I mean, it was kind of a serious situation. It breaks my heart that my daughter, who is, who is 16, and this has happened before with another friend and she was even younger than that that this is something that she's I don't know as a kid, you know is having to to deal with. But at the same time, I'm so grateful for her. She is incredibly sensitive and she recognizes this, you know. She recognizes that, yeah, each one of us it doesn't matter if you're 16 or if you're 46 or whatever right, whether you're a therapist or not that if you know the signs, if you know what to look for, you can intervene and you can save somebody's life.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and it's incredible. It's incredibly sad that she had to be in that situation, but it's incredibly powerful that that alarm bell went off and knew what to do and did it.

Peter Leman:

Well, and it's partly because and this isn't I mean, it's just what you said before that you know when you're educated right. And we've done my wife and I have done a lot to be open with our children about mental health, to be open with them about suicidality and suicidal ideation and signs to look for Because of my experience I mean they check in with me, I check in with them, but it's also made them very sensitive to the people around them and they've been there for friends in really difficult times and I'm grateful that they've embraced that. As difficult as it is, I think it's necessary that we you know as many people as possible can you know have those tools and have that ability to recognize the signs and step in when they can.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, we're the safety net and, and you know to your point of it, it sucks that she's 16 and has to do this. I mean, my children are 12. It sucks that they have to do active shooter school drills you know, totally, it's so, but we can.

Gabe Nathan:

We can kick and scream about the world that we live in or we can work to change it. Uh, and we can work to make the best life that we can with what we have. Um, and I, you know. Getting back to reaching out, I think there are also people who fear what if I'm wrong? What if I, you know, ask someone if they're suicidal? And I'm wrong.

Gabe Nathan:

And I had this experience with my own father two months ago. He sent me this text message where he's like you know, I just want you to know I'm so proud of you and I'm sorry for things that I did, you know, when you were a child, and I have so much regret and I'm just asking for your forgiveness. And I was like, well, red flag city here, this guy, what? This was totally out of nowhere. And I met up with him and I looked in my father's eyes and I said are you thinking of killing yourself? Um, and he was like what? And I said well, you know, you're. There's this that I've noticed about you, this, that I've noticed this about you, that I've noticed about you this, that I've noticed this about you, that I've noticed You're also an older male.

Gabe Nathan:

You're a suicide loss, survivor yourself. Your sister killed herself, so that ups your risk. You know, duh, duh, duh. I was going through all these points and you're sending me this written fucking message of I'm sorry and please forgive me. So it sounds like someone is tying up loose ends and is preparing to say see you later. And he had to reassure me. He had other reasons for coming to me with that and that you know I'm totally healthy physically and mentally and that's not blah, blah, blah. But yeah, he was also very moved that I cared enough to ask him. And the answer to what if I'm wrong, is who gives a shit if you're wrong? The question is not that, it's what happens if I do nothing, and it is that.

Peter Leman:

I love how direct you were with him too. I think we're worried. We kind of walk on eggshells, you know. We're sort of it is. Obviously if someone is in crisis it's a sensitive issue, but but that directness matters and in that case, yeah, what if you were wrong? Then they know you care about them.

Peter Leman:

Right, Then you know you're worried about them and you're thinking about them, and yeah, that's great, but but if you decided, oh, I don't want to touch on this, then it leaves the door open for tragedy, right, and that directness I mean in my experience that's really important. It's so much better and more important to be direct with people, to be blunt, than to sort of tiptoe around it.

Gabe Nathan:

And yeah, I've directly asked questions like that to people before. Use the language, use the, the direct question, and you will get a direct, truthful answer. And then the question becomes then if the answer is yes, what do you do with that information? And that's a whole other set of education, and what your options are varies by geography and resources and all of that. But there's always next steps and I would love to know, before we get into your essay you wrote this essay pre-COVID and we've gone through this pandemic and I'm curious to hear from you as a professor what changed from then to now in terms of your own mental health, the mental health of your students. How did that impact things?

Peter Leman:

Yeah, oh boy, this answer to this could be an entire podcast episode itself. It's been a rough uh, what's what's? It been four years or so, four or five years? Um, since then, uh, I'll talk personally and I'll talk about the students, but my um, in the middle of covid, my wife got a cancer diagnosis. Um, she's diagnosed with breast cancer and it was stage two, a little beyond stage two. But we found out she had one of the genes, the PALB2 cancer gene, and so she ended up getting a full double mastectomy radiation therapy, chemotherapy and in the middle of that her dad passed away and it was just, it was difficult, it was really hard.

Peter Leman:

And in the middle of COVID, so we were sort of limited. You know, when she had her cancer appointments, you know I couldn't visit her all the time or, you know, other people couldn't be there to support her, and it was definitely challenging. And then to have her dad pass away in the middle of that, and um, and my kids, my son especially were, you know, he was really close to him and so that was hard. Uh, my kids are both really social, uh, they love their friends and um and COVID took a toll, uh, being isolated, uh, not being in the classroom, not being with their friends was was extremely difficult and I think, um, not just them, but, but students their age, you know who, and I think not just them, but students their age who lived through that. I think we're still seeing the effects of that and I think we won't really fully understand the impact of that for years to come. I'm personally kind of a you know, sort of an introvert and I didn't mind, you know, having to be around lots of people all the time and spending more time in nature and stuff, but of course we were dealing with cancer in the middle of that, so that was challenging. We got through it and I think as a family we grew closer and we know how to survive together.

Peter Leman:

But my students yeah, I mean the sort of rates of so at BYU and I assume it's similar to other universities if a student has a disability of some kind, they can get an accommodation letter and there's an office, and I already received a lot of those before COVID, but there were even more, I think, after. And I think it was yeah, it was hard. Students didn't like I think it was hard. Yeah, it was hard. Students didn't like I think it was hard for them to be to take classes all online. I think a lot of students really miss the in-person interaction. But then when they came back to in-person interaction, there was still anxiety about the disease and there was anxiety about, you know, being around people and it took some adjusting.

Peter Leman:

Those first few classes back after the pandemic were really difficult and for a couple of years and I don't know that the rates have changed I don't have the data on it but certainly there were kind of increasing numbers of students with mental health challenges, with depression, anxiety, who would get accommodation letters or who you know didn't know they could get an accommodation letter but would would come and talk to me or would have a breakdown or something like that. And so, yeah, it was, it was tough, it was, it was a difficult period. I mean, I think it was difficult for you know, everywhere. But in terms of this specific issue, I certainly saw an increase in people who struggled and but I but I think that also for me and I think for other faculty that I know and other professors, that it made us kind of hypervigilant as well, about about looking for science, about reaching out to students, following up with students outside the classroom One of my colleagues who was also a big advocate for these kinds of things.

Peter Leman:

We talk about how we essentially have three full-time jobs as a, as a teacher, but also you're expected to publish and research, where I work, and then you're also expected to do a lot of administrative work and I've got extra administrative work right now.

Peter Leman:

But then on top of that, we're also the front line in helping students who are struggling with mental health, and that, especially if you're committed to it, especially if you are making a concerted effort to be aware of and reach out to those students, that's another full-time job. So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's still challenges, you know, and there's still a lot of students who come forward, a lot of students who need help. So I don't know if it's gone down at all. I think it might be a little bit difficult to tell because I'm so open about it in my classes. So a lot of people you know come to me and talk to me and are open. So I don't know exactly what all the other professors' experiences are. But anyway, yeah, short version. Covid was hard. I'm glad we're past it, but we're still dealing with the effects.

Gabe Nathan:

But my, my only follow-up question to that, before we get into your essay, is so as as, as an individual whose you know wife had her life threatened by cancer during a pandemic and an individual who lives with depression himself uh, an individual who has three full-time jobs at the moment.

Gabe Nathan:

That's overstating, I suppose, but well, first, probably understating it, actually, if, if we're really honest about it, who helps you and who helps your colleagues? Because I'm hearing a lot about the students and you know you and and other like-minded faculty, but I suspect that you know burnout and exhaustion and feelings of overwhelm, um, and also probably feelings of despair. You know I can't do enough for these students. I feel like I'm failing them, all of those thoughts. So who's helping you guys?

Peter Leman:

Thank you for asking that. First of all, that's incredibly thoughtful and it reminded me of the first time a student asked me that and you know and this was after COVID We'd returned to classes. This might have been in 2022. And it was a class where I don't know. It was a really positive experience, that class, and there were several students in that class that had mental health issues, and we had lots of conversations in class and outside of class, and one of those students at one point saw me outside of class and said how are you? Are you doing okay, can I check in with you? And I started to cry because I was like nobody ever asks me that, you know, like it's making me cry right now just thinking about her.

Peter Leman:

I really appreciated it because I, I don't know. I mean, I ask for help when I need it, when I feel like I really need it, it when I feel like I really need it, um, but I, but I, you know, with my wife's cancer, uh, I she was the priority, a hundred percent. She was the priority Um and uh and I wasn't the one who needed taken care of. I mean, I guess that was kind of how I um thought of it at the time that she was the one who needed taken care of, and so I didn't whatever I was dealing with, whatever I was struggling with, I uh didn't talk about it because, because she needed the help and needed the support. Um, we actually had a conversation about this a couple of days ago or a week or so ago. Uh, we were kind of reliving some of that and thinking about some of those experiences. And she said uh, I realized that we never really talked about the fact that that was probably really hard for you too. And I said, yeah, but I don't know.

Peter Leman:

Thank you for acknowledging that, but I don't know what to say to that, because I was like, but you were the priority, right, your life was in danger and that's. But it was hard, it was, but I kind was and so, yeah, to answer your question, I think a lot of faculty we look out for each other, we take care of each other. I've got some really close friends here on campus that we check in with each other, we support each other, we are each other's lifelines in a lot of ways. But I think that is something that can be overlooked and I think burnout is a real thing. Emotional exhaustion is a real thing.

Peter Leman:

One of these colleagues last year, I believe, really kind of reached the end of his rope. Last year, I believe really kind of reached the end of his rope. There were just so many students and he was taking so much on and he was there for everybody, but it was just overwhelming and he was working miracles with those students, but he needed somebody there for him, needed somebody there for him too and fortunately his family was supportive and I was there to try to help him as much as possible. But uh, but yeah, he needed to kind of step back and and realize that he needed to care for himself as well. So, um, yeah, I mean it's. Yeah, sometimes I think we're there for each other and sometimes I think some of us just kind of work in isolation hoping for the best. But that's certainly something that could change. Yeah, but thank you for asking that.

Gabe Nathan:

That's really thoughtful, you're very welcome. And it is hard to be a caretaker, whether it's a partner with cancer or it's vulnerable students. It seems like one of the easiest things to do is to forget yourself and pick up the phone and take the call, whether you're emotionally ready for it or not, or answer the email, even if you have capacity for it or not, and it's like, well, well, I just have to do this. Um, and what I've had to learn in that caretaker role and as a suicide awareness advocate is it doesn't always have to be me and it can't always be me.

Gabe Nathan:

Sometimes I can do a warm handoff to someone else, I can say I do not have capacity for this right now.

Gabe Nathan:

It doesn't mean that I don't love you and that I don't care, but I can't be the help that you need right now because of shit that is happening with me.

Gabe Nathan:

Here's someone else and it just we want to take on everything and everyone, but it's just not, it's not possible. But I want to talk about kind of what is possible and I mean I think that leads really neatly into your essay, because it's a very small thing that you do in your classroom, but it's also enormous and I think it's a wonderful example to other people for how I'm always talking about how can we move the needle in terms of conversations around mental health, conversations around suicide and its prevention, and there are lots of ways to move the needle just a little bit, and I think one of the most powerful ways to do that is through disclosure and creating an environment of listening and seeing, and I feel like that's what you do in your classroom. So I would like you very much to please read your essay At this point. It's called why I Tell my University Students I'm Depressed.

Peter Leman:

January 7th 2019, 9.30am. I've just kicked off day one of a writing class for English majors with a review of standard academic policies. It's dull but necessarym. I've just kicked off day one of a writing class for English majors with a review of standard academic policies. It's dull but necessary stuff. I've gone over a hundred times with previous classes, but when I come to the last policy, I'm suddenly nervous. I've taught for over a decade everything from freshman survey courses to graduate seminars and given presentations around the world. I don't get nervous. I try to keep my voice steady as I read the university's single paragraph mental health policy. I emphasize its importance and then tell my students for the first time in my career that I live with severe depression and anxiety and have for as long as I can remember.

Peter Leman:

About a month before this, a student took her own life on campus. She survived the initial attempt but died a day later in the hospital. It was devastating, deeply, viscerally devastating. This wasn't the first suicide on campus. Certainly, utah as a whole has an alarmingly high suicide rate and suicide is the second leading cause of death for college-age students, but it was the first I knew of since I began working there in 2011. It happened in a building with heavy foot traffic and windows for walls. People saw it was all we could talk about or think about for weeks. Some of us never stopped thinking about it. I didn't know the student personally, but there was no relief in knowing or not knowing. She was one of ours, or at least she was supposed to be. We failed her as a campus community. Part of me demanded to know why and how, but another part of me already knew. For one thing, we weren't having the right conversation, or really any conversation at all.

Peter Leman:

Every year I see more and more students fall behind. I see more and more students ask for extended deadlines and fail to meet them. I see more and more simply stop coming to class. On the one hand, I feel it is important to challenge students. College should be hard. It should push young students to their limits. On the other, what good is any of it if students are pushed too far?

Peter Leman:

I'm deeply troubled by my complicity in this crisis and its concomitant culture of silence, particularly because I understand on an experiential level what many students are going through. I understand that we can't just expect them to deal with it. I can't do anything for the student who took her life. We failed her and I grieve that fact. But for others like her, it isn't too late. Fortunately, many universities, including my own, have committed increased resources to counseling and other services, but not every student feels empowered to reach out for help. Stigmas still linger. Shame holds people back. Silence persists. So on January 7th 2019, I tried to break one small corner of that silence.

Peter Leman:

As a child growing up in rural Idaho, I was considered moody. I don't think we had any other language for it. I was often told to cheer up and get over it. I had spells of sadness and anger that would seem to come out of nowhere. I remember being seven or eight and crying as I sat next to my mother who cried for me. She was young and frightened and did what she could, but neither of us really understood what was happening. I fought my moodiness through high school and college, but it wasn't until I was 26 years old that someone finally wondered out loud if I had clinical depression. I reluctantly met with a therapist and she confirmed the diagnosis. It helped to know, I suppose, but it was also difficult to accept. At first I was ashamed. After a few therapy sessions I thought I could handle it on my own, I didn't fully understand that this wasn't something that would go away.

Peter Leman:

I began graduate school and enjoyed periods of relative stability, but then, for reasons I didn't understand, I would go into stretches of deep depression, sometimes for days or weeks. My rural upbringing taught me the value of hard work, so I consistently dragged myself to class, but I was often miserable. I interpreted these feelings as evidence that I was stupid, that I didn't belong in graduate school and that I was a worthless person. I met with a doctor and started medication. The effect was positive, though I knew it wasn't a cure. I graduated and started work as a professor On some level.

Peter Leman:

I think I kept waiting for that moment when I'd finally be happy. I was married to an amazing woman. We had two beautiful children. I had a great job. People reminded me of these facts when I bottomed out. You have every reason to be happy, they'd say. Guilt and shame only compounded my feelings of worthlessness and depression. I still kept my nose to the grindstone and in fact, getting lost in work sometimes helped distract me from what was going on inside. But I still believed I wasn't and never would be good enough. I wondered sometimes if my family would be better off if I were dead. I started meeting with a new therapist. His approach was different. We dove into the science. We talked about brain chemistry and body chemistry and I finally started to understand what was going on inside. I started to develop strategies for identifying periods of depression before they began and for coping with those periods when they happened.

Peter Leman:

I'm not always good at this. I've never cancelled class because of depression, but on days I don't teach, I often can't get out of bed. I can't bring myself to do the things I know will help, like exercise and meeting up with friends. I've made excuses to my students for why I wasn't able to grade their assignments as quickly as I should have. Some days I make it to work but I close my office door, keep the lights off and simply stare at the wall.

Peter Leman:

Despite, or perhaps because of these experiences, I have grown in my understanding of and sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness. I know what it's like to hate yourself and believe you're not up to the challenge. I know what it's like to wake up sad and feel like the sadness is everywhere and will never go away. I know what it's like to feel that inexplicable pain inside and that terrifying longing to make it go away whatever it takes. But I also know that the only way I got through these moments was because I opened up to people I loved and trusted and learned how to keep going whatever it takes.

Peter Leman:

When I finished telling a shorter and much less polished version of this story on that first day in 2019, a young woman in the back had tears in her eyes. I worried I had said the wrong thing or took it too far. Other students looked at me intently, some looked away. I wasn't sure the speech did what I'd hoped and I obsessed about it the rest of the day, but I believed it was the right thing ultimately. So I shared it again in my other class, and again the next semester and every semester since.

Peter Leman:

Despite the limited effect one person can have in culture change, students started to respond. Many have met with me to say what it meant to them to hear a professor talk about his mental health. This has been rewarding, but heavy. I'm even more aware of how many students carry tragedy immediate and potential, within them each day. But the goal, at least to begin with, was not to reduce that number. The goal was to help create a circle of light that students could look to and hopefully be willing to step within, a space cleared of shame and loneliness, where understanding, compassion and love could thrive.

Peter Leman:

I've heard powerful and heartbreaking stories from students in the last year and a half, but one in particular stands out. She was in that first class maybe the one with tears in her eyes, I can't remember for sure, but I do remember that she approached me after that day and, with difficulty, started to share her own experiences with mental illness. She was, and still is, a brilliant writer and thinker and often asked for feedback on her work. So we met frequently. I didn't try to counsel her, of course, but I did what I could as her professor and fellow traveler on the difficult road of mental health recovery. Not long after the class ended, she sent me a letter, which I keep close by to this day, in which she gave me permission to share. It reads in part At the beginning of the semester, you spoke to us about some of your mental health challenges. This helped me trust you as a teacher and accept some of my own difficulties, as well as have hope for my future. Since April, I have received needed treatment and I now feel better than I thought possible. Please know how grateful I am for your help and example. Having a professor who empathized with what I was experiencing meant the world.

Peter Leman:

Part of me would still rather keep my story to myself. If asked why, I would say I value my privacy. But if I'm being honest, I'm still insecure about sharing it. But what I've learned from this student and her classmates is too important not to share, and what I've learned is precisely that we must share. Stigma and shame and the fear of being perceived as incapable of keeping up have made mental health conversations at universities particularly difficult, but it is a problem everywhere. Fortunately, things are improving and will continue to improve as long as we keep talking. The more we talk, the bigger that circle of light gets, the more people it encompasses. The more we talk, the more likely the edge of that circle will, at the right moment, reach someone who desperately needs it.

Gabe Nathan:

Peter, I love this essay. I love what you do with your platform and your platform, um, and your platform is your classroom. It is, it is your space to use as you see fit, and you are responsible, um for, for how you lead, and I think that this essay is so demonstrative of the fact that you lead with love and compassion and understanding, and it's a pretty extraordinary thing, thank you.

Peter Leman:

Thank you. I truly appreciate that. I'm just trying to do the best I can, I think, but I'm so grateful to you for your platform as well and the fact that you let me kind of essentially collaborate with you and getting this message out and be part of the wonderful project that you're doing that reaches so many people as well it was a pleasure the first time, an even greater pleasure this time.

Gabe Nathan:

and before you go, I want to point out something that's really really important that you talk about in your essay.

Gabe Nathan:

You mentioned how, in times when you've been bottoming out, there have been people who have pointed out to you all the wonderful things in your life your wife, your two children, your stable job and actually I recorded another interview earlier today where I had a similar conversation with that guest too, about how in the suicide prevention community, it's like one of the biggest don'ts.

Gabe Nathan:

When you're talking to someone and they're telling you they're not doing well and they're telling you they're depressed, or even they're telling you they're suicidal, don't go to them and say, yeah, but you've got a wife and you've got two great kids and you've got a job. We all know that you don't need to tell someone that they have all of these things, because, a they know it anyway and B guilting someone about feeling depressed or trying to guilt someone into staying alive, all it does is it just puts shame on top of whatever they're feeling already. And it's pretty. I understand where the motivation to say those things come from, but if you really pull back the camera and look at it. It's a pretty unhelpful thing to do, and I'm just grateful that you pointed that out in your essay.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there was some specific experiences that that came from. And yeah, I agree, I mean, in the case of some people who've said those things to me, at the time, of course, I wasn't grateful for what they said, and not that I'm grateful now, but I've tried to wonder why did they say that? And I think often, especially if it's someone who doesn't understand, I think they're scared. I think sometimes those people are scared and they're speaking from fear rather than compassion or understanding, and maybe in their mind, that's the thing to say positivity. Let me just throw positivity at you.

Gabe Nathan:

Look at all the good things in your life and worth living for, and let me stop this as fast as I can, because I'm scared of what this person's telling me and I kind of want to put a cork in the bottle and we don't have to do that. We can't do it anyway and you know, the thing is to just be, just be with that person, be with them in their time of need, their time of struggle. You don't have to fix it, you can't fix it, but you can just be with them.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, do we have time that I could share a quick experience, please? Yes, along those lines. Yeah, this was another thing that happened during, you know, since I published this essay and you know, after I kind of got back from COVID. I was walking across campus beautiful day and then I heard this high pitched noise and it sounded like I wondered if there was a band or something that was playing or there's some kind of singing going on. But as I got closer I realized someone was screaming, screaming at the top of her lungs, kind of terrified, terrifying screams. And I started running toward it and other people running toward it, and I got up next to this building and there was a student huddled down on the ground, curled up, just screaming repeatedly at the top of her lungs. Right, she could hardly even breathe, no idea what was going on. Nobody else was around and people were trying to get her to talk, but she's not responding because she's she's in a full panic attack.

Peter Leman:

Uh and uh and I I mean, I didn't know what to do uh, um, exactly, but I, but I sat down next to her, uh, and I said, hey, I'm going to put my arm, put my hand on your shoulder, uh, I hope that's okay. Put my hand on your shoulder. I hope that's okay, try to breathe with me. And then I said and I just tried to say, let's slow down your breathing, can you feel that? And I tried to tap her shoulder in rhythm and let's slow your breathing down. And slow your breathing down. And slowly the screams stopped and she was kind of hiccuping, but she managed to start taking deep breaths and taking deep breaths and taking deep breaths and she eventually kind of pulled out of it. And then we just sat there and I didn't try to interrogate her or anything, we just sat there and just kind of breathed together and she started talking and she said I don't, I don't know what.

Peter Leman:

What happened? She was brand new student, freshman, and had walked through this loud building and all kinds of new students and she just had a full panic attack and she'd never had one before and she was just absolutely terrified. But in that moment she just needed somebody to sit with her right and to breathe with her until she got through it. And I'm grateful that I was there to help her. Other people were there. I'm grateful that helped.

Peter Leman:

I didn't really know what I was doing but I was like, okay, let's just try to breathe, right, let's you know. And but yeah, you're absolutely right, I mean, I think, but I don't know, that it's, it's hard to do. It was so uncomfortable, I mean that it was so unexpected, out of the ordinary and and, like I said, there were other people there and nobody knew. Should we call an ambulance? Should we call the er? What's? You know what's going on? And, um, uh, fortunately nobody tried. You know, yelling at her or anything like that, which, of course, wouldn't have helped. Or telling her, you know, be grateful that you're at BYU or you're be grateful that you're here.

Gabe Nathan:

Slapping her, throw water on her Snap out of it.

Peter Leman:

Yeah.

Gabe Nathan:

All those things we see in the movies, yeah.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, exactly, and uh, she just needed somebody to be with her for a minute and yeah, and I think that same thing. Yeah, it's uncomfortable. Silence is uncomfortable. When someone is sad, when someone is depressed, when they're in a panic attack, it is uncomfortable. But we have to be willing to sit with that discomfort and be there for someone else and not try to fill that discomfort or assuage that discomfort by you discomfort by projecting our insecurities and saying you should be grateful for this, you should be grateful for that right, be okay with that discomfort, because sitting in that space with that person when they're in that position is what they need more than anything.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, I think a huge part of suicide prevention is not telling people you are not alone, which I see so much on bumper stickers and on social media. It's showing people you are not alone.

Peter Leman:

They need to feel that.

Gabe Nathan:

And that's what you do on the first day of class and that's what you did with that young woman on campus, and I think we can all do that with each other in various ways. We can find those ways to do that for people.

Peter Leman:

Yeah, absolutely. She's doing great now. By the way, she made the Dean's List in 2022, graduating in the next semester in civil engineering. She's a rock star.

Gabe Nathan:

And she may not have thought any of it was possible there on the ground, but you know yeah, for sure. Yeah, she made it. Um, and I'm so grateful to you, um, for who you are and what you do and how you are, and um, thank you for being here and spending some time with me.

Peter Leman:

My pleasure. Yeah, Thank you so much for having me. It's. You know, these things are hard to talk about, but it's so important.

Gabe Nathan:

And I'm so grateful that you, you know, are giving me the opportunity to be part of this. What a joy to talk to a person who exemplifies the meaning of educator. Peter Lehman is a writer and English professor living in Utah and an extraordinary human being doing such wonderful things in his life and in his classroom to help students feel not alone. Thank you for being on the show, peter. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiariesorg. Remind you to check out our website, recoverydiariesorg. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos and content about mental health, empowerment and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.

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