Recovery Diaries In Depth

Suicidality and OCD: A Writer and Actor Finds Her Voice with Rebecca Wei Hsieh | RDID, Ep 108

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Rebecca Wei Hsieh finds her voice, writing about suicidality and OCD in her personal essay, "Now What?: Suicidality and Planning for an Uncertain Present". She wrote it several years ago, when she was at the very beginning of her career, coping with family relationships she deemed "fractured" and it seemed like the future was impossible to plan. In many ways, Rebecca was, at that point, not that different from others her age navigating the complexities of life and family, but Rebecca was doing all of that while attempting to extract herself from thoughts of suicide and symptoms of OCD that were, at times, controlling. Now it's 2024 and Rebecca is well established in her career, she is doing the work of maintaining her mental health, she is slowly exploring rebuilding some family relationships, and her views on life, work, and mental health are explored with an introspective sincerity on this episode of our podcast, Recovery Diaries in Depth.

Rebecca shares about how publishing her essay under her real name was an empowering decision and one that she embraced as a component of her mental health journey. Perhaps one of the most powerful and heart-stopping portions of the interview is where Rebecca vividly describes how, at age 12, she told her mother that she was struggling with thoughts of suicide.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh doesn't shy away from talking about the hard stuff, the real stuff, the issues we need to be speaking about and addressing. People like her are the reason why we do this show. We're so proud to have had a chance to speak with Rebecca and to share her with you. We hope you enjoy her interview, and her wonderful essay reading as well.

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

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Gabe Nathan:

Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth. We have a wonderful guest for you today. It is Rebecca Wei Hsieh. She's an actor and a writer. She came to us back in 2017 with an essay about chronic suicidality and other mental health challenges and we are so happy to have her here today to see where she is and how she is. Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are in their mental health journey since initially being published on our website.

Gabe Nathan:

Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiariesorg. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay or film, and you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes and grow and, of course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Rebecca Weishia, thank you so much for being here. It's a delight to have you here.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Thanks so much for having me.

Gabe Nathan:

You're very welcome and I have to say I did not work with you as your editor on your original essay that you sent to us a few years ago. Our editor, Laura Farrell, did and I was going over it, you know to prepare for the episode and you're such a talented writer, it was such a joy to read your piece. Thank you. What was it like to work on with Laura?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

So Laura actually gave me a lot of freedom in terms of, like, what to cover, and for that I'm really grateful to be able to write something that really centers my story, rather than an essay or like an analytical piece, which is what my other work has mostly been, and so for that I'm really grateful. She also, you know, gave me some more pointers regarding you know how best to convey more technical information you know about OCD, things like that to a broader audience. So that was really helpful.

Gabe Nathan:

That's wonderful. It's really nice to hear. I'm always surprised. I read every submission that comes through and some people send us submissions with like footnotes and endnotes and citations. I'm like no, no, no, no, no, it's a personal essay. It's you're the expert here, the expert in your own personal experience. So we don't want anybody citing anyone else or obviously not saying anything like outwardly erroneous, but it's your personal experience and that's what we want here and it's what you gave us so beautifully. So thank you for that. Thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

In going back to your essay, you described yourself towards the end of it. Well, the sentence starts out with I'm so, so lost. And then you describe yourself as an early career actor and writer, not knowing when I'll book my next gig. I'm a queer woman of color in a hostile society, and my relationship with my birth family is fractured at best. That is a snapshot of a human being in a very specific point in time. How would you describe yourself now, and does that description still resonate with you?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes to the resonating part. But at the same time I feel like I've become more than that, like there are other descriptors that describe me better now like I'm still lost, you know, I'm still. You know, not knowing what I do, not really knowing what when the next gig is, um. But also I'm a lot more comfortable in the not knowing and I know that I sort of like covered that in that first essay, saying that like, oh, I'm okay with not knowing. But like in retrospect, I don't think I was really 100% there and I think in a few years maybe I'll look back on where I am right now and think, yeah, it wasn't entirely okay, but right now I feel like really comfortable in it.

Gabe Nathan:

How did you get there? So let's look at do you remember when you sent this essay in and when we published it? Do you remember what year it was?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

It was. I think it was 2018.

Gabe Nathan:

That resonates with me. I was going to say 2017, 2018. Okay, so we're in the scope of a young life. You're pretty far along now. How did you get to that greater comfort level with still being lost? What happened in that realm between the time you published your essay to now, to help you get there?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

the time you published your essay to now to help you get there. I think the pandemic was definitely, you know, a huge part of that, in that it really gave me a greater sense of perspective of what life can be, where it's just like I wasn't working all that much because of, you know, the industry shutting down and things like that, and so I was able to explore my interests outside of acting, outside of writing, and being able to sort of define myself outside of work I think really helped me mature as a human and just get to know myself better, and in that, knowing that there's always more to explore about myself at any given time, I think that really helped with, you know, being comfortable with the unknown, because there are things about myself that I don't know. So, of course, there are things about, you know, the world or the future that I don't know, and that's perfectly fine.

Gabe Nathan:

And what better time to become comfortable with not knowing what's going to happen when a time when the entire world was flipped on its head, when suddenly no one knew what was going on or what was going to happen, or feeling completely out of control.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, and I actually this might be kind of awful to say, but it helped to know that other people are also like kind of like flapping about not really knowing what to do.

Gabe Nathan:

Why does that feel awful to say? I'm curious.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I don't know, because it feels like I'm sort of like I don't want to like make light of how horrible the pandemic was, because a lot, of course, a lot of like lives were lost, a lot of long term disability with long covid and things like that, and I hate that other people were struggling and feeling lost, um, and I don't want them to feel that way, but at the same time, there was something really comforting about that yeah, and I think, look to be honest, I think about those kind of things when I think about the work that we do here at Recovery Diaries.

Gabe Nathan:

So how do we help people? We help people by presenting stories of people struggling so that other people know that they're not alone in their struggling. And so the same argument could be made here, right alone. And they're struggling, and so the same argument could be made here, right, we have this compendium of personal essays and films that are about hope and resiliency and recovery. Yes, but they're also about struggle and despair.

Gabe Nathan:

So someone could say well, you know, I feel so much better knowing that there's people in Rwanda and India and Australia and Scotland struggling with mental health challenges because of recovery diaries. It helps me know I'm not alone. We're not saying we're glad that they're going through these things, we're just they're going through them anyway, but at least that can then help somebody else. Yeah, definitely, but that is something that your therapist identified you as. Is that something? Well, I guess? My first question is did you resonate with that description at that time? And how did it feel to have a mental health provider say you know, this is who I think you are. I think you're just you know, like I have chronic asthma. I'm always going to have this Basically telling you this is your lot in life.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

There was definitely a part of me that was like sad about it, but at the same time I definitely felt almost like a sense of relief that even though it's not like a medical term or medical diagnosis or anything like that that somebody put it to words. Um, especially because when I was growing up, whenever I told anyone that I was struggling, that I was suicidal, that was always immediately brushed off um, and so it was almost like having somebody not necessarily embrace, but like embrace and like see what it was like having somebody see a core part of my experience growing up and finally admitting that it exists, that it happened, if that makes any sense.

Gabe Nathan:

Well, sure, In a way you're looking to be heard and validated and you weren't getting that. I'm assuming you were telling family members that you were suicidal. Yes. Yeah, and what do we need when we're crying out? We need someone to hear us and validate us and say that I see you and I hear you and I'm taking what you're telling me at face value and not dismissing it, and you just weren't getting that. Yeah, definitely.

Gabe Nathan:

At what age were you telling your family this? I mean, I'm asking kind of for personal reasons too. Yeah, definitely compulsive tendencies, and I want to touch on another thing related to that later. But I also had an experience coming to my mother as a little boy and telling her that I needed help Not telling her that I was suicidal, but that I needed help and I needed to talk to someone. And the response that I got was oh Gabriel, you're fine, there's nothing wrong with you. And it just felt like such a smackdown and, as a result, I didn't see a therapist until college, when I didn't have to ask permission. And I'm just wondering if you had a similar experience.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes, so I was 12.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I remember it very vividly the moment my mother was watching TV, the bedroom light was off, so it was just the glow, like the bluish glow of that TV, and I had already been like really visibly struggling for like a very long while.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

While I could tell that, you know, my mother was at her wit's end. My entire family didn't quite know what to do with me or the fact that I was like having these like meltdowns all the time. But I remember walking into that room taking a deep breath and saying, hey, ma, I want to die, and her just like immediately getting so I don't want to say like aggressive, but like quite confrontational about it, because she didn't really know what to do with that information. And so, frankly, her response was you know what, go ahead, wow. And the thing is like, at the time I knew that that was not a good response, but I always kind of like brushed it off jokingly until I got to college when I sort of like was part of this mental health advocacy group and I mentioned it and I was like haha, that's like that's messed up, isn't it? And then my friends were like sitting around a table and looking at me with these like huge, like eyes wide as saucers.

Gabe Nathan:

It's the record scratch moment in the film where it stops.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

And they were like Rebecca, this person gave you life and she told you to go ahead. And I was like oh, that really is messed up, isn't it?

Gabe Nathan:

Her response to you is stunning. But it's also stunning to me how certain things that should be painfully obvious are only truly revealed when they're reflected back to us from others. I mean, I can remember telling stories about my father in therapy that were family jokes and my therapist looking at me like oh my God, and I'm laughing in the therapist's office until I look up and see his face I'm like, oh, this is only funny to me, and it's only funny to me because I've kind of programmed myself to regard it as funny or because that's how we as a family chose to deal with it. And it's only when an outsider is brought in that they're like no, no, no, no, no. This is actually really fucked up what you're telling me.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, I definitely, I definitely again, like I always had like this inkling that like, yeah, it is messed up, but it is what it is. Ha ha, move it like, move on, brush it off. And I don't think I allowed myself, like you said, I kind of like programmed myself to react that way because I didn't really have that room or the capacity to really sort of break down what that comment, what that sentiment meant in that time, especially when I was so young and still dependent on you know, the adults around me in my life.

Gabe Nathan:

Do you have a relationship with your mother? If you don't mind my asking.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes, I recently, about like one or two years ago started speaking to her again.

Gabe Nathan:

May I ask how that's going?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

It's going well. I think I definitely still need to like brace myself a little bit emotionally before, you know, speaking with her, but it's getting easier every time. I think what really helped was that I finally got like an actual apology from her and she had, you know, given me non-pologies before of course um you know, denying that, oh, like it never happened.

Gabe Nathan:

But if it did, I'm sorry I'm sorry you feel that this happened.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, yeah but a few years ago was when she finally sort of I don't know if she actually remembers any of it, but it was the first time she actually fully acknowledged the hurt that she caused. Um, and what really struck me when she apologized was that she said she wanted to reconcile because I was still so young and it wasn't fair for me to be hung up on this, to be stuck here with this trauma. And that was such a marked difference from her other like quote-unquote apologies so far, where it was obvious that, like she was apologizing for her own sake, to assuage her own guilt yes, that's a pretty significant leap yeah do you think's I mean, and you're kind of early on in that reconciliation, even still a year or two in do you think that it's been positive for your mental health?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes, I think for the most part. I of course want to have those boundaries in place. I want to be able to keep supporting myself by myself, you know, financially, emotionally and things like that, but knowing that there is someone there if things just absolutely fall apart, I think that has really helped.

Gabe Nathan:

That's great. Helped, that's great. I want to kind of go back in time a little bit to when you published with us, because I do want to get into your reading of your essay, which I'm very, very excited for. What did it feel like to see it out there in the world, and did you have reservations about that? Because you know, I realized that we're kind of a little bit different publication than some others. You know, we don't allow for people to publish anonymously or with a pseudonym. We use real photos. We've got your bio there. Did it feel a little bit naked or uncomfortable or, you know, did you? Did you have anxieties around it?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes and no Um cause, like in college and even back in high school, like I was already starting to talk really openly about all my like mental illness, like my mental struggles and things like that. Um, sometimes I've written forms, sometimes just like with my classmates and like explaining these sort of like issues with them. But looking back, I don't think at that time whether it's during high school or college I was really quite ready to do any of that. I think at that time I had this sense of like I had to make this trauma worthwhile and in order for it to mean something, it means I have to use it to help other people. But at the same time, I wasn't at that stage where I was ready to do that Not really.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

It came more out of a sense of like obligation, and so it was very much a situation in high school and college where I was basically like taking a scab and like scratching it over and over and over again to show other other people how it bled. But by the time it got to like 2018, I definitely felt that that scab was more or less more like a scar, like a fresh scar, but at least the skin was like covered and healed, and so it was. It didn't really come out of a sense of like obligation, so much as like wanting to express myself like properly, on my own terms and for the anonymity I don't really know. I never really thought of that as an issue. I think If anything I wanted people to know, it was me. Yeah, I think if anything I wanted people to know, it was me, because that is my story and maybe this is, I don't know, vain or self-indulgent or anything like that, maybe.

Gabe Nathan:

But I want people to know that's me and I want people to see me, for you know who I am, what I am, yeah yeah, I mean, obviously I'm biased as the Executive Director of a site that asks people for their personal recovery stories, but I think it's totally, um totally anathema to being self-interested or anything like that. I think it's one of the most magnanimous things that you can do, which is to give a part of yourself to other human beings, and I think that's what people are doing through these essays. You're really giving and giving a lot. I think giving a lot to other people and really asking for nothing in return. And I at the risk of hyperbole I really do think it's very brave, and not just of you. I think every single one of our contributors is very brave, putting out into the world what they do and how they do it. Yeah, I agree, thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

And I'm glad. I'm glad that you want people to know it's you, because there's no shame in you know anything about you and nothing wrong, um, it's, it's just a part of who you are, not the whole thing, but it's a part. Yeah, definitely.

Gabe Nathan:

Um, I have one last question before we get into your piece. You talk about your OCD relating to drugs and alcohol, relating in terms of it being the deathly afraid of drugs and alcohol. I can't find the exact passage here. I mean, obviously you're going to and alcohol. I can't find the exact passage here.

Gabe Nathan:

I mean, obviously you're going to read it. So I have never had a drink and I've never done any drug and I have generalized anxiety disorder, depression and obsessive compulsive tendencies not full blown OCD and I have never really given much thought about why I have never touched drugs or alcohol. I think I have. Always, when people ask me, I always say well, you know, I don't want to be in any state of being out of control, I want to be in control of what I say and what I think and how I behave. And if there's some kind of chemical substance altering that, I'm afraid, I'm so afraid of what will happen and what will I say. What horrible thing will I do. And I wonder if those are the kind of things I don't know, if this is still the same for you, um, or if you've kind of changed your stance or or whatever. But if you can talk about that a little bit, I would.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I would love to hear that yeah, so at the time it was definitely like you said, like related to that fear of loss of control. Um, something that I don't mention um in the essay, because at that time it was still like a little too raw at the time was that I was also just like very paranoid that I would end up killing someone, like I would have like these intrusive thoughts about these, just these very violent images that freaked me out so badly and that was one of the reasons why I didn't want to like risk. Even the idea of potentially losing control was just so terrifying to me and that was a big part of um why I didn't use any alcohol or drugs. Um, nowadays like and like I've never been opposed to anyone else doing it like I don't, I don't care.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, it's just, it's strictly internal yeah, um, but nowadays, actually back in 2020, I had a drink and it was like, and it was fine, and the thing was like I just didn't like the taste, yeah, and I just haven't haven't had any like um since then, and it was mostly because I didn't like the taste and also because, like, I'm still a little paranoid that it'll like affect the meds that I'm on sure but I just don't like the taste.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, I would love to hear you read your essay, and not just because you're a voice actor. Are you ready to do that? Yes. All right. So, without further delay, the essay is called Now what Suicidality and Planning for an Uncertain Present. I'm sitting in my childhood bedroom as I write this and it is one of the Now what?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Suicidality and planning for an uncertain present. I'm sitting in my childhood bedroom as I write this and it is one of the most bizarre things I've ever experienced. The blue floral wallpaper is peeling, a process I helped speed up with restless fingers that picked at the yellowing material. The carpet is so worn and used that it's completely flattened and just feels like a thin layer of rough blue cloth over hard ground. My older sister got a new king-sized bed last year, so I've inherited her twin mattress. After all, as the younger sibling, I grew up using her old hand-me-downs, and mattresses are no different. But my old mattress, the one I used for around 15 years, is still propped up against the wall. It's a shade of faded blue with white roses scattered across the cloth and there are permanent pee stains from when I wet the bed as a kid. It's also the mattress on which I used to cry at night, unsure whether or not I could keep from attempting suicide the next day, convinced I wouldn't live past 13. So you can imagine it's pretty bizarre to be alive 11 years later, calmly writing about suicide in the very room in which I'd planned it.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

The view present me has really isn't anything like I'd imagined. My first depressive episode and the months leading up to it are still hazy to me, though I can catch a glimpse of a specific memory here and there. For the most part, I can only remember the vague yet all-consuming feeling of misery, of dread, of nothing. But there is one particular moment, when I finally reached 13, that stands out to me, one that I would revisit over and over again during subsequent relapses. Sobbing my eyes out in a bathroom of a cafe, I wrapped my arms around myself and looked at my blotchy face in the mirror. I promised myself that I would hold out for 10 years. I would be 23 one day and I would no longer be bullied at school by classmates and teachers. I would no longer come back to an unhealthy family life and shut myself in my room to avoid the toxicity under my roof. I would no longer dread waking up just to spend every lucid moment wanting so desperately to die. In 10 years I thought you will be happy with where you are and who you are. That promise became my lifeline throughout the next decade, the light at the end of a tunnel that I thought would have a defined end, flash forward to the day I received my college degree, one day before commencement and less than two weeks before my 23rd birthday, I was grateful for almost hitting my 10-year goal, for the chance to hold the overpriced college degree that I never thought I'd live to see. I had a found family that I loved more than anything and an amazing internship at a prestigious theater.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Lined up to kick off my career, I now had not only recurrent major depressive disorder, but also a persistent depressive disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder and complex post-traumatic stress disorder. I was suicidal again for what seemed like the thousandth time in the last 10 years, leading my therapist to describe me as chronically suicidal. These issues were all well-managed, thanks to the combination of medication and psychotherapy. Even my suicidality wasn't exactly that big of a problem. Sure, I was miserable, but I had the tools and experience to ride it out. Time and time again, my therapist taught me to exhale longer to prevent hyperventilation during panic attacks. I regularly employed grounding techniques when I felt myself floating away in a dissociative episode. Experience reminded me that, despite all my past suicidal episodes, my track record for getting through all of them had been 100%. Yet well-managed chronic mental illnesses wasn't what I'd meant when I said happy with where I am and who I am.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

So yeah, the view was pretty damn underwhelming. It was kind of like biting into what you assumed was a chocolate chip cookie only to find out that the dark blobs were raisins. It's like driving thousands of miles to see a wonder of nature only to realize that, well, it's just a bunch of rocks in it. Recovery was underwhelming. It was underwhelmingly banal, underwhelmingly bland, underwhelmingly pedestrian. As soon as I reached 23, I found myself thinking okay, I'm here. So now what? I'd finally reached the milestone I'd been aiming towards for years, and it was nothing like I'd expected. There was no splash, no spectacle like I'd expected. There was no splash, no spectacle. And since I was dealing with more diagnoses than I had 10 years ago, I questioned how much of an achievement survival really was. And now that I had accomplished what I had set out to do to survive for 10 more years, I was lost.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Like most millennials, I never quite knew what to do with my life, whatever that vague phrase meant, especially given the social-political tension and instability that plague modern society. However, the feeling of uncertainty was amplified tenfold because this was never part of the original plan. The original plan was to die young, to prevent myself from causing any more pain to others. My 10-year promise was, frankly, just a desperate attempt to motivate myself to live. I didn't actually think I'd make it this far, as if navigating tax forms and apartment leases wasn't confusing enough. I was also disoriented because I wasn't sure how far ahead I should be planning my life. I dreaded the imagine yourself in 10 years question at job interviews. It was as though I didn't have the capacity to look past my 23rd birthday, because that was supposed to be the end of the tunnel. It would lead to either endless daylight or a dead end. Turns out it's neither really. To top it all off, obsessive compulsive disorder makes me medically unable to accept uncertainty.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Ocd was once known as the doubting disease. Compulsions aren't just quirks. They're generally fueled by some sort of obsessive anxiety or fear. You can't know for certain if the bad thing will happen or not, so it feels like the best way to prevent it is to respond with these rituals, even if you're aware they're illogical. Just in case. Even if you're aware they're illogical, just in case, just in case, just in case.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

A major manifestation of my OCD is a fear of suicide. Ironic, I know, and incredibly confounding. When I had my worst bout of OCD in 2014, I oscillated between being suicidal and not being suicidal, yet terrified of snapping suddenly and ending my own life triggered by what seemed like the smallest things. I couldn't look at any food that was red and liquidy. It reminded me of blood, even though I had no problem with menstruation. I repeatedly glanced at anything hanging from the ceiling to make sure it was impossible to hang myself from it. I was paranoid that I'd develop yet another mental illness and increase my risk of suicide. That led to a debilitating fear of alcohol and drugs. The twisted logic behind OCD argued that developing a substance abuse disorder on top of all my other problems meant I'd probably end up dying by suicide.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

A million what-ifs still flash through my mind today, most of them illogical but nonetheless harrowing. What if I didn't lock the door properly? What will happen if I don't check the stove again? Will I lose my mind and hurt my friend? After working specifically on my OCD with a therapist for around a year, I learned two phrases that have helped minimize the distress that stems from this unhealthy and unproductive thought process. As it turns out, the words that helped me manage my OCD-related anxiety also helped me sit and lean into the uncomfortable uncertainty of being alive. Those words are I don't know, and simply maybe. Constant attempts to seek reassurance for myself and others only exacerbated my anxiety in the long run. So the key for me was to sit in the uncertainty and embrace it. What if I didn't lock the door properly? Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I don't know, and that's okay. What will happen if I don't check the stove again? Maybe nothing, maybe something I don't know, and that's okay. Will I lose my mind and hurt my friend? Maybe I will. Maybe something I don't know, and that's okay. Will I lose my mind and hurt my friend? Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I don't know, and that's okay.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I never expected to live this long. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm too scared to envision my future, because what if I don't make it? Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I don't know, and that's okay. I will never know anything for certain, and that is okay. Perhaps that's the most frustrating part of all this uncertainty. I cannot promise my loved ones that I won't die by suicide. I've made my peace with the possibility of dying this way and I'm doing everything I can not to be in such a despondent, hopeless headspace, but I can't plan for everything. I don't know if I will be okay. I don't know, I do not know, and that be okay. I don't know, I do not know and that is okay. I don't need to have a plan or a grand goal to achieve by a specific time.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yes, the promise of happiness 10 years down the line did help me power through some incredibly difficult periods of my life. I survived multiple major depressive episodes, all of them including suicidality. When I exhibited symptoms of CPTSD and OCD for the first time, I was afraid and lost, but reminded myself about my 10-year promise. In doing so, I didn't set up the most realistic or healthy expectations for my early adulthood. My story doesn't quite match the personal stories shared with me during my turbulent adolescence. The inspirational tales about overcoming mental illnesses and finding oneself. Those stories of triumph helped motivate me, but they became the only narrative I knew, the only iteration of happiness I saw. That became the definition. Trying to force my journey to fit that narrative was ultimately unhealthy for me. Trying to force my journey to fit that narrative was ultimately unhealthy for me. Sure, everyone I knew emphasized the importance of routine maintenance work, but they always seemed so optimistic and happy to be alive. They were inspirations, beacons of hope that I aspired to be. But that's not me.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I don't think life holds any inherent positive meaning, which sounds very nihilistic. I know I'm not one to wake up in the morning and think, wow, I'm so glad to be alive. My life is neutral. To me, a blank canvas, if you will, because here's what I've learned about life. It can really suck, and the good stuff doesn't always outweigh the sucky parts. The ups don't necessarily justify the downs. It's kind of moot to compare the good with the bad. Sometimes shit hurts for no fucking reason.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Adapting a more neutral mindset to my life, and my future in particular, has helped my health immensely. I'd put too much pressure on myself to be happy without keeping in mind that I won't get the happy ending I'd envisioned, because, well, I've not reached the end yet. I'm so, so lost. I'm an early career actor and writer, not knowing when I'll book my next gig. I'm a queer woman of color in a hostile society, and my relationship with my birth family is fractured at best. Oh, and on top of that, I need to stay vigilant about my mental health to minimize relapses.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

My story of recovery is not pretty, it's not polished, it's not glamorous, it's not inspirational, at least not to me. It's boring maintenance work that is at times breezy and at other times grueling. There's been no grand moment of triumph for me, no big splash signaling my achievements, just the incessant drip of an endless leak that I try to catch before the sink overflows. And that's okay, I'm okay. Maybe this is how happiness takes shape for me accepting that mental illness is woven into the fabric of my being and that being okay with it is the best I can do. But then again I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the fabric of my being and that being okay with it is the best I can do, but then again I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time my predictions have gone sideways. Maybe one day I'll be planning my life another 10 years into the future, maybe 20. Maybe even 30. Who knows?

Gabe Nathan:

I certainly don't. Wonderful piece and a lovely reading. Thank you so much for doing that. Thank you.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

What was it like going back to this? Um, it was really sort of surprising just how much I've changed and at the same time stayed the same. Just how much I've changed and at the same time stayed the same. I mean, I'm still pretty neutral about the concept of being alive. I still don't think there's like any inherent value or meaning to my life. But I think I'm now more viscerally aware of the impact my death could have around the people around me.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

And that's in part because, like I think it was just a few months after this piece was published, I was out at a diner with a friend and I mentioned that I'd been suicidal and how like, oh, it ultimately wouldn't really matter anyway. And she got so mad at which, like I understand, and she had like tears in her eyes and she was so pissed and I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. And then she sort of like put everything into perspective, because it never really occurred to me that people would be mad, and she described it as like, yeah, I'd be mad, I'd understand, but I'd be mad and eventually I'd be okay, but in that moment I wouldn't be and I was like, oh, I think maybe my life doesn't matter that much to me, but maybe it matters to other people and I don't want people and I don't want to live my life for others and that's not necessarily something I want for other people either, but I don't know.

Gabe Nathan:

That moment just sort of like broadened my horizons a little bit. So that's so interesting because, as a suicide awareness and prevention advocate, you know one of the things that people say to people when they know or suspect that they're suicidal or someone you know confesses that they're having suicidal ideations. One of the knee-jerk responses from people who kind of really don't know a lot about suicide prevention is yeah, but think about your family, think about all the other people, and it's almost a way to guilt the other person into staying alive, which we never want to do. But it's so interesting that the thought of your death, the impact that that would have on others, for you it's a driver.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, and I really didn't expect that to be a thing for me because, like you said, I also really I hate the response of like think about your, you know your family, Think about your friends.

Gabe Nathan:

Because of course you are, everybody does, it's not? It's like you know, I have two children. It's like well, yeah, but you have children. It's like fine, thank you, I know, you know, but that's not what it's about.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Exactly, and I don't know it was. I think the fact that she was angry kind of threw me off, because I I have never had anyone like be pissed at me for this. It's always been just like knee-jerk, panic, panic, panic and like trying to like reassure me or whatever, which isn't necessarily what you want. At that time, like I think what I really needed was like an honest, like reaction, and that was her reaction and that's, and there it is.

Gabe Nathan:

And so frequently, when someone does die by suicide, one of the very, very strong reactions from those left behind is anger and then feeling guilty and ashamed that they're angry and so it's. It's such a it's. All those emotions compound each other, which is why you know a suicide loss is a loss like none other. I'm so glad that she was able to express that to you at a diner and not at your grave. Yeah, and not at your grave.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, there's a part in your piece where you say perhaps that's the most frustrating part of all this uncertainty I cannot promise my loved ones that I won't die by suicide. It reminded me of when I was working at a locked inpatient psychiatric hospital and we used to make patients contract for safety is what we called it and there was a little checkbox on our paperwork. You did the patient CFS and you check yes or no. And a contract for safety is this oral promise Can you promise me that you won't kill yourself? It's so absurd when I think about it. You know that you won't kill yourself, it's so. It's so absurd.

Gabe Nathan:

Um, when I think about it, you know that we would ask people this can you contract for safety? Uh, and they would say yes, and of course it means nothing. You know a promise that you won't kill yourself. You can say yes, and then you know five minutes later, later make an attempt in your room. And it just struck me as so bizarre this idea of asking people to promise that they won't take their life, when really we're all at risk for doing that. We all have risk factors and protective factors related to suicide and there's no guarantees for anyone person when we, when they say they're okay, um, that they're safe, and because I did.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

There was this one time when somebody almost called campus safety on me, um, because I mentioned in passing that like I was suicidal, but like I was fine, like I've done this like a million times, I'll be fine, I can write it out, and that was true, um, but at the same, this other person didn't trust me to know myself.

Gabe Nathan:

Right.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

So they almost called campus safety on me. But at the same time it's like like there's like this really hard balance to it, Right, Because you don't want to deny the agency of that person who is suicidal, yes, and you want to trust that they know what they're saying and they know themselves. But at the same time it's like, well, you can't really promise, promise.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, it's incredibly difficult for pall takers at 988. It's incredibly difficult for crisis workers. It's incredibly difficult for inpatient providers, outpatient providers, friends, family, everyone Because if you get this wrong, it is literally life and death. So it's a very, very hard place to be in and you can educate yourself to a point, but every single situation is unique and dynamic. And attending some cookie cutter training no disrespect to any of the suicide prevention trainings that are out there, I've taken some. I think they're great, um, I encourage people to take them. But it's not a bulletproof vest, um, and it's no guarantee that you're suddenly going to be solemn in the wise when you're talking to someone who's suicidal and you're always going to know what to do. Um, that's very, very difficult.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

And I think that just like goes back to the point of like how important it is to actually listen to the person, and like listen to their story and trust them to be the expert of themselves.

Gabe Nathan:

I have one final question. Um, before we go, you mentioned the kind of boring maintenance work that you need to do to keep your mental health symptoms in check. Can you tell me what some of them are and how you're doing with them these days?

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

So, frankly, I haven't actually been to psychotherapy in like almost two years, so that part's kind of like out of the picture for me right now. But I mean it's the taking of the medication and it's the dealing with insurance and like making sure I don't run out of Prozac, things like that. You know journaling, even though I don't want to feeding myself, even though I don't want to kind of things Just like. I mean like, if you really boil it down, it's just the boring parts of being alive that everyone has. Or maybe people like I mean I don't like cooking, so maybe the cooking part is fun for some people.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I'm just very lazy. But yeah, that's what it looks like for me. It looks like figuring out a safety plan as the holidays get closer, because it's usually a difficult time for me. And yeah, that's just just. I don't know. It feels so baked into just how the way I live my life that the routine maintenance work for the mental illness part, for the mental health part, it's just a part of my life and I don't necessarily know how to separate that.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and maybe that in and of itself is a symbol of how far you've come, that it doesn't feel like extra work or like my mental health stuff is over here and ADLs the activities of daily living are over here. It's all mixed in.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Yeah, that's a nice way to think of it. I actually never thought of it that way.

Gabe Nathan:

Well, that's my holiday gift to you today.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

Thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

And I'm so grateful for you. I'm delighted that we had this time together. Thank you for coming to us in 2017. Thank you for coming back to us in 2024.

Rebecca Wei Hsieh:

I mean thank you again for having me. I mean I was literally just I told Laura this, but like I was literally just thinking about this piece because I had just turned 30 this year and it's like quite a milestone, so this all feels not predestined but like a nice coincidence.

Gabe Nathan:

Very fortuitous and happy 30th to you. Thank you. Thank you for being here and please take good care and enjoy the banality of your every day. Thank you, you too, of your every day, thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

You too. Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. Very warm thank you to our guest, Rebecca . She joined us for the first time in 2017 with a wonderful essay about chronic suicidality and managing her multiple mental health conditions, and it was an absolute treat to have her back on the show today. You can find her at rwhsieh and that is spelled H-S-I-E-H dot wixcom backslash home. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiariesorg. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos and content about mental health, empowerment and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.

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