Recovery Diaries In Depth

How a Chance Encounter Led to a 30-Year Therapeutic Journey; in Conversation with Brian Marshall | RDID; 120

• Recovery Diaries • Season 1 • Episode 120

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NAMI asserts that the average length of time between onset of mental health symptoms and reaching out for help is eleven years. That is an excruciatingly long time to be living with mental health challenges without professional help, and the reasons behind why many people wait so long are varied, complex, and understandable. If you are one of those people living in anguish or despair, if you are one of those people who know, deep down, that there is something wrong and that help is desperately needed: this episode of Recovery Diaries in Depth is for you.

Brian Marshall needed help. He was living in throes of a deep, vast depression, not wanting or able to leave his house. His father, a police officer working a side job of painting houses, observed his son suffering. He also observed something else: a stead trickle of children from the neighborhood going into and out of the home that he was painting. One day, Brian's father asked the homeowner why the kids were coming. She said that she was a psychotherapist, working with children who needed help. Brian's father, a good-natured helper of others, but who had difficulty opening up, being vulnerable and expressing himself (like many cops, let alone men, of that era) put those feelings aside and did what he knew was best for his son; he asked this lady for help for Brian.

What ensued was a therapeutic bond between Brian and the therapist, Claire Allen, that would endure for three decades. Brian, who lives with bipolar disorder and depression, knew he wasn't going to make it without help and support. Hospitalized multiple times throughout his life, he has known great stability throughout the last two decades, and he credits much of that stability to the dedicated therapist who saw him through so much of his life.

Brian Marshall, an award-winning journalist, has been twice-published by Recovery Diaries, first for his beautiful tribute to his therapeutic bond with Claire, and, in his second essay, for taking us into the experience of receiving (and benefitting from) ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). Brian's conversation with RDID host Gabriel Nathan is empathic, hopeful, helpful, and uplifting. Brian isn't "cured", and he is currently experiencing challenges navigating the healthcare system; challenges that many of our listeners will identify with, but he is navigating life with strength and resilience. Listen to this candid, inspiring interview, and share it with someone you love; someone who may be waiting, waiting for a sign, that the time to get help is now.


Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they're always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting www.wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

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Gabe Nathan:

Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. We are so delighted to have on our show as our guest today Brian Marshall. He is an award-winning journalist over 30 years for newspapers in Texas and Michigan. He lives with bipolar disorder and depression and he has written two essays for Recovery Diaries one about his experience with ECT, which is electroconvulsive therapy, and the other, which you will read today, about his decades-long therapeutic relationship with his therapist.

Gabe Nathan:

Each week we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. Thank you, what has changed and what new things have emerged? We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiariesorg. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay or film, and you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere. You get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes and grow and, of course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Brian Marshall, welcome to Recovery Diaries In Depth. It is so, so lovely to have you here with us.

Brian Marshall:

Thank you. It's good to be here and to talk to you.

Gabe Nathan:

So I just want to peel back the curtain for a little bit and let our listeners know that we had some technical difficulties. We're starting a full 34 minutes late than we had been scheduled to, and I just want to say that, as someone who lives with, uh, generalized anxiety disorder, um it's, it's thrown me a bit off kilter. So I'm, um, I'm struggling to kind of get back in the zone and just be here in the present moment with you and be mindful that, as the saying goes, shit happens and it's okay. But that's kind of the internal monologue that's going on in my head at the moment. So that's how I am. How are you at this moment, brian?

Brian Marshall:

I'm well, thank you. Things are going well and no major complaints. Things are going well and no major complaints. I still have the ups and downs occasionally, but I've learned some coping mechanisms and I have a good support group.

Gabe Nathan:

So I'm pretty well. That's wonderful, I'm really glad to hear it. And a lot of people talk about life in terms of ups and downs, but you're someone who lives with bipolar disorder and so the phrase ups and downs can be a little different for someone living with that mental health challenge. Can you talk a little bit about what that phrase means for you?

Brian Marshall:

Well, I would say probably for the last 20 years ago I really haven't had any manic episodes. So it's mostly dealing with the depression side of it and I've been on a pretty even keel. When it does crop up I kind of lose motivation, energy, I sleep too much Pretty much the typical factors that people deal with when they're depressed. But I have found that I snap out of it quicker. I have no qualms about medication and working with my psychiatrist to adjust it as needed, and therapy obviously is a great help. But it's just the main thing for me is, I believe, not panicking.

Brian Marshall:

I have kind of a my psychiatrist has kind of a dramatic case of bipolar where I mean it can switch overnight, I can wake up. You know, I can be having a spell of feeling fine for months actually, and I can wake up and it's almost like you know, the chemicals have switched and I just feel that you know that overwhelming feeling of depression, that overwhelming feeling of depression. And so the key is to not panic when that comes on and to use my tools to deal with it.

Gabe Nathan:

Has that been an issue for you in the past? That panic like, oh my God, here it is again and I'm sliding down this hole into this deep depression, and how have you been able to manage that?

Brian Marshall:

Like I said, I in the past would normally just kind of wallow in it and keep to myself not open up of wallow in it and keep to myself, not open up. It's very hard for me sometimes to push myself to reach out, um, not only to the, you know, the professionals, um in my life, but but to friends I have, you know, a couple friends I can definitely confide in, but I I keep it inward and it just kind of builds on itself and makes it even worse. But I've learned, you know, I just simply can't do that. And also, writing is an outlet. The therapist I was with for many, many years, decades actually. You know I was a journalist. I'm retired now I still freelance. I've written a couple of books. Writing for me is a big outlet, therapy in itself. She always said whatever it is, write a note to somebody, journal, but just the fingers on the keys for me is an outlet. You know, if I don't feel like reaching out immediately to somebody to talk to, I will try to put it into words.

Gabe Nathan:

And that has also helped. I love that you've already brought up Claire, who was your therapist for many, many years, several decades and we're definitely going to be talking more about her and she's really your relationship with her is the subject of the essay that you're going to read for us. That was published on Recovery Diaries a couple years ago, so I'm really looking forward to that, but I have there's so many things I want to ask you, like I have questions about writing. As someone who also lives with mental health challenges and who loves writing, I have questions about that. I guess I'll start there. So you've talked about writing as a helpful outlet and a tool, and I know that you do freelance writing about animals. Is that?

Brian Marshall:

correct. Yes, yes, I write for a magazine called Animal Wellness.

Gabe Nathan:

So here's my question Does the writing have to be related to your mental health for it to be therapeutic, for it to be an outlet or something that's helpful to you, or can it be writing about anything, just the simple act of writing that you find helpful?

Brian Marshall:

Yes, I would say it's any kind of writing Journeying about my feelings and what I'm going through is definitely a key method. But no, it's just that creative process. I mean, when I write it's almost like it's not coming from my brain and through my hands to the keyboard, it's coming from somewhere else. I don't know how to explain it, but it's just such an outlet, it's such a first. You know, so long from my old professional career I wrote every day, sometimes several stories a day, you know, in the newspaper business. So it's, it's just. You know, it's been a part of my life, like I said, and yeah, just the act. It can be, it can be anything, um, just that creative process and just the, just the letting go. Yeah, it doesn't have to be about mental health, although that certainly, um, that certainly does help as well.

Gabe Nathan:

That's wonderful. I'm so glad that you have that, that outlet, and it's something that you I mean, you're obviously good at it, award-winning journalist and something that you've done for for decades now, um but that it's also helpful to you, no matter what the subject matter is, Um and I. You were talking also earlier about how, when you're feeling depressed, it can be difficult to open up, and I was thinking of a couple things related to that. And one of the things I was thinking about is that here at Recovery Diaries, we get all kinds of analytics and information about who's coming to the website and who's reading the essays and, of course, who's submitting the essays and who's getting published on the site, and it's overwhelmingly women. That's who's. You know we're predominantly getting submissions from female writers. That's who's getting published, predominantly getting submissions from female writers. That's who's getting published. And so so many of the site visitors are women.

Gabe Nathan:

And I remember when I first got your you've written two essays for us when I first got your first essay. Every time I get an essay from a man opening up about their mental health, I'm almost like a dog and I can feel my tail wiggling a little bit because it's so rare. And when you were talking about how difficult it is to open up. I was wondering if you think that that's like a male thing, that that's part of what makes it hard for you, all of the stereotypes and the tropes around men and opening up about mental health. Do you think that that contributes to that reluctance in you?

Brian Marshall:

I think that is part of it, I think. In our society, men are taught or raised to be strong and be able to handle things on their own. And, um, yes, I, I definitely think it is. Uh, I, I, I happen to just have the personality too, though, or I think, um, you know, I'm definitely a not a type A personality where I love going and just able to freely express how I feel, but, yes, I do think that that is part of it for sure.

Gabe Nathan:

I'm going to connect another dot. Your dad was a cop right Right and a cop right Right and a cop a long time ago, in an era where those kind of beliefs were even more deeply entrenched, those beliefs about men and manhood and suck it up buttercup and stiff upper lip and that kind of thing. What kind of guy was he?

Brian Marshall:

Oh, he was a great guy. He was the type of person my friends used to say wow, my dad was like yours, just oh, how do I describe him? Just warm and great sense of humor and just accepting of everybody. He was my baseball coach in Little League and the kids just loved him. He wasn't all about winning at all costs. He would make sure every kid on the team played in every game. Some of these coaches would just hoping when it all costs and some kids would sit on a bench forever. But so the players and the parents loved him for that.

Brian Marshall:

Um, just giving him of himself and, um, you know, as a cop he was, he was like that. He, he wasn't in it. You know he wasn't the monster coming to cop. You know to carry a gun and to be the. You know, the the forceful, uh, uh, you know, um, you know this is a lie, you can do it my way. Whatever he, he would listen to people. He was reasonable, but also one-on-one. He did have trouble expressing his emotions, so it was hard for me to open up to him. I would more often go to my mother, but yeah, he was just a great guy. I can't say enough to him. I would more often go to my mother, but yeah, he was just a great guy. I can't say enough about him. I was so lucky to have both of them.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, that's so wonderful and he was an integral part in you getting help correct.

Brian Marshall:

He actually was for sure. Would you like me to talk about that now, or wait till I'm ready to do the essay?

Gabe Nathan:

Just, share a little bit about it, and yeah, we'll get to it in the essay too Sure.

Brian Marshall:

He met a woman by chance and back then, more often than not, the mother did stay home, be a full-time mother, not work outside of the home. And to enable that to happen, he took on side jobs and one of them was painting homes. And he happened to be painting the home of a woman and he noticed that there were kids that would come and go on their bikes even to her home. And he asked one day you know, why are these kids coming to see you? And she said well, I'm a therapist and I work with them. And I will tell you in that sense, I had just come home, not that long ago before that, and I was depressed.

Brian Marshall:

I was back living at home, and he asked her would you see my son? And she said, of course. And that led to three decades of working with this wonderful person who changed my life and was there for me and taught me the tools, got me to open up, um, told me the tools got me to open up. And so, yeah, it was, uh, it was by chance. But you know, I totally believe some things are meant to happen and that's one of them for sure.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, it's hard to argue against that when there's this just totally random and yet life changing encounter, and I love that it was your father that really made that happen, and what a lifelong gift that he was able to give to you. Perhaps unknowingly he may have as well. You know Brian needs a little help. Let's see if this works. But how could he have known it would have blossomed into this decades-long therapeutic relationship? It's really extraordinary.

Brian Marshall:

Yeah, it really is. Looking back on it, like I said, I really think it was right place at the right time, and he talked later about it was difficult for him. Like I said, he was, you know, not silent, but he was the strong I was going to say strong, silent type of person. But for him to approach her and ask her, you know, if she would see me, he said that was very difficult for him. So, yeah, I was very fortuitous for me.

Gabe Nathan:

I have two children and they're both 13. They're twins. I sometimes think back to when I was a kid and I was struggling with my mental health and I approached my mother one day I think I was 10. And I asked her if I could talk to someone and the response was oh Gabriel, there's nothing wrong with you. And there very clearly was.

Gabe Nathan:

And I, you know, my mother's still living, my father's still living, and I think about that a lot. And I think about that young boy and what it took for him to approach his mother to ask for help and it being denied, and I for a long time was very angry at her. I didn't get help until I was in college and I could go get it myself. But I think about could my life have been very different if I had gotten help earlier and if she had responded differently? And why did she respond like that and what the fuck was wrong with her? You know.

Gabe Nathan:

But I think about what it must be like for a parent to know that their child is struggling and there's so many different ways to react to that and so many different things that a parent carries from their own childhood that can inform how they respond to that and react to that, and I think I wonder if my mother was scared, if my mother felt ashamed that she must have done something wrong for me to not be okay as a child and that getting me help would be admitting to that, basically that this was quote her fault, which of course isn't true.

Gabe Nathan:

But I wonder if some of those feelings like shame or guilt or fear were barriers to my getting help earlier. And then, when I think about your experience with your father, emotions that he must have been struggling with related to you not being well, related to you not being well, but then being able to overcome those and saying, okay, I feel maybe this way about Brian and maybe I feel responsible or guilty or scared or whatever, but I'm going to put that aside and do what's right. I'm just so glad he was able to do that.

Brian Marshall:

Oh, of course, Oma. I think in my case it was obvious. I was struggling, I didn't want to leave the house, I was a apprentice. Yeah, I don't think it was a case where there was any gray area or any reason to hesitate to try to get me help.

Gabe Nathan:

So part of the reason that we do this show, Brian, is most the vast majority of our guests are people from our Recovery Diaries community. You know people who have written essays for us in the past, people who've been in our films that we make, and you know we wait a few years to then bring people on the show to check in with them and see how they're doing now, because an essay is what it is. It's a snapshot in time, same as a film. You make the film in 2016, and then you put it out there and then life happens to people, and so I'm very curious to hear about how you're doing now, what your day-to-day experience is. You know how you're doing with your mental health recovery now, now, so can you tell us a little bit about that?

Brian Marshall:

Yes, doing much better. Like I said, the depression is inevitable. It comes no matter what's going on in my life. Things could be going great but, like I said, I can feel it. Sometimes it's overnight, but I have learned. That's still a huge hurdle, but I will immediately.

Brian Marshall:

I have one friend in particular who I talk to often. I've actually known since I was in college. We actually dated and, of course, lost track of each other for many, many years and I just kind of looked her up, found her on the internet, and this was probably six, seven years ago and we connected. We had a great relationship then. She's very oh, she's had a lot of life experiences herself and is very in tune with me, knows my whole history. So that's like the first step I will take. I'll reach out to her, I won't hesitate, and then usually she'll still have to convince me to reach out to my therapist and or doctor. So I just believe my coping techniques have grown and have gotten better and allowed me to deal with it when it does come on Now.

Brian Marshall:

Reaching out doesn't snap me out of the depression. It will stay with me for a while, but because I'm able to reach out, it won't reach the depths that it used to, reach the depths that it used to From the time. My first onset of depression was when I was 19 and it was just horrible. I didn't know what was happening to me. And then, through my 30s and 40s probably from 19 through my 30s and 40s, probably hospitalized six or seven times In the last 20, 15, 20 years I haven't been.

Brian Marshall:

I believe that's because, you know, I've been able to get over that stigma of I have to be strong. I have to deal with this, you know, by myself and, like I said before, I would just wallow in it and it would get worse. So, yeah, just reaching out to her and I also have a great family that are aware of everything I've been through my one sister in particular I can talk to and then, like I said, that will, and then, like I said, that will prompt me lead me to reach out to the professionals in my life. So, yeah, as far as that goes, it's in a much better place. There's nothing I can do I've accepted that to stop the chemical changes that will inevitably lead to depression, but it's how I deal with it that has made the difference and allowed me to live a much better day-to-day life. So that's the gist of it, just from me reaching out.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and it's wonderful that you have those people in your life that you're able to do that with and that you feel safe and comfortable and confident to do that, to be able to reach out Again, knowing that it doesn't cure anything but it helps give you support and relief and release and validation. It's just so, so important. And you were talking about making the connections to the professionals in your life, but I know that you have been experiencing some issues with quote big system healthcare and some frustrations there, and I would love you to just talk about that a little bit. If you're comfortable doing that, sure.

Brian Marshall:

Yes, I'm still in the midst of that, my psychiatrist. Actually, I was with a psychiatrist who was wonderful too for about 25 years and he retired almost the same time that my therapist did. I call them the dream team because he was just fantastic as well. And um, so I found another psychiatrist and, uh, we worked pretty well together and he retired about five years ago, I would say. And I found another one that did not go as well. It went well for a while, but it did not go as well. So I decided to change just fairly recently, a few months back. So I decided to change just fairly recently, a few months back, and I made an appointment and I went believing I was going to see the psychiatrist, and it turned out that the first appointment was called an intake, where I sat down and spoke to a person and it wasn't just filling out forms, it was fairly detailed about my history and it was an hour long session. I thought, okay, well, that's great, I'll see the psychiatrist next time. Made an appointment, I'm talking.

Brian Marshall:

A couple more weeks went by. The next appointment was and I wasn't told this up front that it was a several-layered system before I actually saw a psychiatrist. The next appointment was with a caseworker of all things which I didn't need A caseworker, as even she said was, you know, to make sure I had shelter, I had food. So I met with her and then made another appointment, and I'm still. That was a month away and I'm still a couple of weeks away from that, and this time I said, okay, I've got to get an understanding of what the system's like and what's going on and what the next step is.

Brian Marshall:

So I reached out and I discovered that my next appointment is with the psychiatrist, but they call it a psych evaluation. It's almost like I have to prove that I have a mental illness and so in the meantime I've had to rely on my primary physician to prescribe my psych medications, which she has done, but she's been somewhat hesitant, especially when she had to do it for a second time, and I'm actually going to have to reach out to her for a third time, since this next appointment will not involve refilling my psych medication. So it's been very frustrating and I'm actually I decided yesterday I'm actually considering foregoing that system and having my primary, which she hasn't mentioned in the past that she will do fill my psych medication, since, you know, now you see a psychiatrist. It's not therapy, it's called medication review. You see them for five, ten minutes, so I can go without that if.

Brian Marshall:

I have to. I can rely on my therapist for my everyday situation and problems. So, yes, it's been very frustrating. I'm not the only person, obviously, going through this, because that's the way they're set up. So, yes, frustrating.

Gabe Nathan:

Well, you're getting nothing but empathy here and that's the way I've been doing it for years is having my GP prescribe me my antidepressant and anti-anxiety medication because of precisely these issues. And many general practitioners are very reluctant to do this. They do not want to get involved with psych meds. They really are uncomfortable about it. So many psych meds carry that black label warning about suicide because, counterintuitively, a lot of psychiatric medications carry that risk of increasing suicidal ideation and so they don't want to touch it. And you're lucky in that respect that you have a GP who's willing to do it. I am as well that. Mine is like look, you've been stable on this medication for so long. I feel comfortable just prescribing it for you as long as you're still in therapy, which of course I am, which of course you are.

Gabe Nathan:

But when I think about these issues going on in managed care, the immense level of frustration, and I'll even call it sabotage because you're stable, you're on a medication or medications that are clearly working for you, and simply because your practitioner retires or moves or closes their practice or whatever, it is all of a sudden that stability that you've built up is jeopardized. And who's jeopardizing it are mental health professionals. Um, and the reason? It's simply because they want to cover their own asses. So they've put all these barriers in place and all these protective layers for themselves, which are incredibly frustrating and often dangerous, I think, for patients. It's really a shame that you and so many others are going through that, and I guess the last thing I want to say about it is that living with mental illness is really hard. I mean, it's an obvious statement, but then when these obstacles are put in front of you, it's making things even harder than they have to be for people who are already having a hard time.

Brian Marshall:

Oh, absolutely, and you're absolutely right. The system I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, obviously there are still psychiatrists who will see you on the first visit, but it's getting fewer and fewer between, I think. And also insurance companies come into play, because Sure, insurance companies come into play because my insurance company did a great job of locating some psychiatrists that I could reach out to.

Gabe Nathan:

You know there were only a handful, I did reach out to and it's been, like I said, frustrating and strongly considering, as you had done, just having my primary physician prescribe my medications because of that reason. Well, and the frustrations that you're experiencing now with these clinicians are totally warranted, and I guess now would be a good time to move to a time when you were better supported and managed care and the big health system wasn't a part of your life and you were receiving much more direct and empathic care. So let's turn our attention, let's go in the Wayback Machine for your essay. It's called Decades-Long Relationship with Therapist Truly a Gift by Brian Marshall, and we are ready for it when you are.

Brian Marshall:

After a sudden, crushing depression, I discovered, by fate I will forever believe a person that would provide guidance, sincere caring and a unique connection that would help shape my life for 30 years. That person was a psychotherapist yes, a deaf provider of that personal one-on-one relationship that fosters, ideally, an atmosphere of sharing innermost thoughts and emotions and of facing roadblocks in the aim for clarity and happiness. Finding such a person, of course, can be difficult, and the right connection is always vital to success. Many try therapy with one or more professionals before giving up, frustrated that the give and take necessary for enlightenment is lacking. I was fortunate to enjoy a most unique and rewarding experience. I found the perfect therapy and a partner merely by chance, and this is what we had discussed earlier.

Brian Marshall:

After a brief bout of depression upon graduating from high school, I had gone five years quote in remission from any sort of depression, as I thoroughly enjoyed college, and three years of being welcomed into a wonderful group of coworkers and friends in Texas. I am sure now that my bipolar disorder was simply taking time off. I was not on medication, not seeing a therapist and just enjoying life. I am also sure that my relapse was triggered by situational factors. I gave up a job. I loved sports writing because my girlfriend lived two hours away. I took a job selling furniture which I loathed every morning as I got ready to go to the store. I became engaged to Stacy after a year when I realized that Texans, because of pride and love of their wonderful state, rarely leave Texas, reality hits. I was very close to my family who resided many states away in Michigan. I would only see them on occasion the rest of my days if I dove into my new life in the Southwest. Those two factors selling out professionally and foregoing the wealth of happiness and new life in the Southwest those two factors signing up professionally and foregoing the wealth of happiness forged over a lifetime resulted in a deep depression and a hospital stay. They quickly had a moment of clarity. I had to go home, stacey, and I didn't actually break up. I was ill and was only going to get better, surrounded by family. She understood and stayed by my side. I called my father, my hero always, and I told him that I needed to come home. An immediate sense of relief followed when he replied okay, when do that I needed to come home? An immediate sense of relief followed when he replied okay, when do you want me to come? My father flew to Texas ASAP. Actually, it was the next day. We were to drive the 24 hours to Michigan. We did so in two days and nary a word was said.

Brian Marshall:

My father was a strong type who kept his emotions in check. I felt safe and secure sitting next to him, but feelings of embarrassment, failure and fear kept me from discussing my feelings and, of course, the depression that I was feeling. Once back in the bedroom in which I grew up, I wallowed in anguish, totally withdrawn from people and the world, no direction, no motivation and way too much restless sleep. Then came my introduction to Claire Allen. My father was a police officer, not one of the macho quote look I've got a gun cops but one who cared about people and often was utilized in domestic strife situations. My friends loved him. He was big on humor but didn't reveal his emotions. He held jobs on the side. He was painting the home of a woman when he noticed a steady stream of bike-riding youngsters dropping by, spending a spell inside of them, pedaling away With his troubled son. At home. My father built up the courage to ask the woman about the kids and she told him that she was a psychotherapist that worked with the kids at the behest of their parents. My father explained that his son was very depressed and asked whether she would see him. Of course, just have him call and we'll set up a meeting, ms Allen said. My father told me years later that asking for help was one of the most difficult conversations he'd ever had. Agreeing to go to therapy.

Brian Marshall:

I soon discovered that this woman had a spirit and positive aura that awakened me, albeit slowly, aura that awakened me, albeit slowly. I returned weekly at first, and, while there were some quiet sessions, I was able to get to a place where I could truly begin to address the real issues and emotions that had rendered me emotionally frozen. Claire Allen, a heavily educated psychologist, had been helping clients find healing direction and hope for many years. She moved from a busy office setting to hold sessions from her home in a tree-lined, cozy area in Michigan. What would proceed over the next 30 years would be an incredible journey of self-inspection, learned coping techniques and unearthing confidence in self-esteem that had been whittled away by my own perceived failings. It got to the point where Ms Allen could read my face as I entered the room. What's happened? Or glad to see you're feeling better, I'd plunk down into a chair and we would go to work All the usual things family, my current state of mind.

Brian Marshall:

She would offer instant recognition to whatever plight may have emerged. Able to cut through pretense because of our valued chemistry. Able to cut through pretense because of our valued chemistry. She helped me stop agonizing over what others thought of me. Instead, she reminded me of the many people in my life who respected and loved me. We role-played, we examined what-if scenarios and I learned to avoid harmful triggers. Mostly, though, it was those 45 minutes in which our growing therapist-client relationship blossomed. There were a handful of hospitalizations over the years when the chemicals in my brain shifted, bringing on severe depression. Always, however, there was my trusted ally to steady the ship, slow me down and get me to dig deep. She showed me how the past shaped the present, but that the only thing that mattered was what I would do to make the present and future better. She had a database into my mind without needing a file. Ms Allen would meet some of our family members she knew so well, as portrayed in our sessions. No one in my life went without examination in those sessions. If only they knew she actually attended some of my children's milestones and was sought out by more than one family member during trying times.

Brian Marshall:

Ms Allen, semi-retired, when I was in my mid-50s about 10 years ago. It had been a couple of years since I checked in with her. I was going through a rough time and felt I needed to reach out. In a five-minute conversation she gave me orders that I heard often through the years. Write, she said you must write Journal, or even if it's a note to someone, write a note. To me, as a journalist, writing was more than a profession. It was therapeutic for me and so I did. I wrote her thanking her for being there for me through all my life's trials and joys, for forming a bond that to this day prompts me to ask what would Claire say when I am met with the latest of life's challenges? And I wrote this. I hope it inspires others to at least consider finding help when strife is ripe.

Gabe Nathan:

Thank you so much for reading that piece. It is a delight and very, very heartwarming. I think that so many people are scared of therapy that NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, puts out a lot on social media and it says that the average length of time between onset of mental health symptoms to the person actually seeking help is 11 years. Wow, that's an astonishing length of time between knowing there's something going on and actually getting help, and I think there's so many reasons why people wait that long, but I think one of them is that people are scared of therapy and therapists and they have these archaic or problematic beliefs about what therapy is going to be like. Or they see things on television or film that are not accurate or are like horror stories or just give the wrong impression. Antidote to that, because it really shows what is possible and just this really beautiful depiction of this helpful, hopeful relationship. So thank you for sharing that. On our publication.

Brian Marshall:

Oh, absolutely. And you know I found OC87 just searching around the internet and I was so taken with the essays and people who opened up and that's what prompted me to send my essay to you up and that's what prompted me to send my essay to you. I still read the essays and everyone I read, you know I gained a new insight. It seems like there's so many different real life issues and I was so glad that you accepted mine. And, yeah, I just, and I believe also, you know there's that stigma when you know I'm not crazy, I don't need a therapist. Well, I just think everybody at some point can use somebody to talk to, and it doesn't have to be a therapist, it can be a friend. But you know therapists are trained, you know they do what they do for a reason and to find one that you're compatible with. I don't mean to go off your own agenda.

Brian Marshall:

Not at all After she, miss Allen retired. I had a hard time. I saw a couple of therapists and I just didn't feel like there was that connection. I probably held on to I have a standard after what I had experienced and then finally I found one who. We have things in common. We start almost every session talking about our love of the Detroit professional sports teams and we just kind of go from there, um. So yeah, like you said, I think there are so many reasons, um, and and it's a shame because you know, I, I know firsthand and listening to you, you know for Tam, what that give and take can do for you. So, yeah, I wish you know more people would reach out when they're feeling that you know these hurdles in their life are so hard.

Gabe Nathan:

And so hard, so much harder to overcome and deal with alone. And that's the. I think that's the real crux here is that you don't have to do it alone. You know there are trained professionals out there who can be helpful, and some of them aren't, to be very honest, and some of them might be helpful to someone but not to someone else. It might just not be the right connection, but you can try again.

Gabe Nathan:

And you know I'm on my 15th year with my therapist, so I'm very much in your boat. I hit it out of the park with my first one, not counting the therapist I saw at the college counseling center, but my first one in the real quote adult world. That's who I'm still with and I'm very, very, very lucky, um, but it doesn't happen that way for everyone. But you, you really can find a good match and I'm really glad that you said what you said also about how, when Claire retired, that it was a struggle for you and I can only imagine mourning that, the loss of that relationship and having to try to establish something with someone new who does not have that foundation and that core understanding of you and who. You are really building that from the ground up. I think you deserve a lot of credit for trying a couple and realizing okay, this isn't working out, but you have found a match. Is it the same? No, but you're getting what you need and that's really great.

Brian Marshall:

Yes, I read something that put it kind of in perspective. When you're seeking out a therapist, you are actually hiring them, which also means this one's harsh, but you can stop seeing them seek someone else. But I just hope that people, if they do have a bad experience or just simply don't feel like they can open up to a therapist, will not give up, will try to seek someone else but it's your life, it's your decision Instead of just keep seeing them all the time or right, but it's your life, it's your decision.

Gabe Nathan:

Instead of just keep seeing them all along, or, right yeah, continuing the sessions, throwing money away and having it not work, or leaving and going well, therapy is clearly not for me. No, that therapist may not have been for you, but I have seen it where people kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater. They have a bad experience with a therapist and go well, I knew this wasn't going to work. I knew therapy wasn't for me. Try again, and you're a wonderful model for that that you had this wonderful decades-long relationship. It ended as all do, but you were able to pick up with someone else and it's a very important reminder that you can do that. Whatever the reason is for a therapeutic relationship ending Right right.

Brian Marshall:

And therapy isn't for everybody. Butically, you know.

Gabe Nathan:

We see what happens so many times yeah, yeah, and it doesn't have to be, it really doesn't, um. So I'm just so grateful to you, um, and you know, particularly as a caucasian male, in your age bracket that's the highest demographic for suicide. So you're really a model, not just for help seeking, but for also being open and vulnerable and putting yourself out there and telling your story, and I'm telling you right now that helps people. It helps people to see you in your author's photo looking very dapper and debonair, with your white hair and being a male of that demographic, combating stigma and saying there's nothing wrong with going to therapy, with taking meds and telling your story, and I think you deserve a lot of credit.

Brian Marshall:

It's the next game. I appreciate that. I really do. It's the truth.

Gabe Nathan:

And that's what I'm going to send you on your way with Brian Marshall. I'm so, so grateful to you for being a part of our Recovery Diaries community, for coming to us not once, but twice, with two published essays on our site, and for being such a wonderful guest on the show. I'm so, so grateful to you.

Brian Marshall:

Oh, I enjoy it and thank you for what you do, for being such a great advocate for mental health.

Gabe Nathan:

Thank you, wishing you all the very best. Thank you, thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. What an absolute joy getting to spend some time with two-time Recovery Diaries author Brian Marshall, award-winning journalist, career newspaper man in Texas and Michigan. Brian lives with bipolar disorder and depression and we are so, so grateful to him for spending some time with us and especially for his moving tribute to his longtime therapist, claire Allen. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website recoverydiariesorg. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos and content about mental health, empowerment and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.

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