
Recovery Diaries In Depth
Welcome to Recovery Diaries In Depth; a mental health podcast that creates a warm, empathic, and engaging space for discussions around mental health, empowerment, and change. Executive Director and podcast host Gabe Nathan brings a unique combination of lived experience with mental health challenges, years of independent mental health and suicide awareness advocacy, and an understanding of the inpatient psychiatric millieu as a former staff member at a psychiatric hospital. This extensive background helps him navigate complex and nuanced conversations with a diverse array of guests, all of whom are vulnerable and engaged; doing their utmost to eradicate mental health stigma through advocacy, storytelling, and open conversation.
Guests who have previously contributed a mental health personal essay read their essays aloud during the podcast and then chat with Gabe about what has changed in their lives since their essays were published on the site. By engaging in deep discussions with people living with mental health challenges like bipolar disorder, trauma histories, addiction issues, schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive or eating disorders, Recovery Diaries in Depth further carries out Recovery Diaries' mission to #buststigma by showing people that they are not alone, instead of just telling them. This mental health podcast features guests from all over the world and, while their own personal experiences are unique, the human experience is what unites, inspires, and connects. Subscribe, like, share, and enjoy!
Recovery Diaries In Depth is supported in full by the van Ameringen Foundation.
Recovery Diaries In Depth
Mental Health On The High Seas: A Conversation with Writer/Filmmaker Stephen O'Shea | RDID; 124
The most dangerous period for a veteran isn't during during enlistment, but that first year after leaving the military; and the danger almost exclusively comes from the self; a severely elevated risk for suicide. In fact, the suicide rate for non-combat veterans is higher for those who have been in active combat.
When Navy veteran Taylor Grieger survived a suicide attempt, he made a radical decision—to sail around Cape Horn, the Mount Everest of sailing, to raise awareness for veteran suicide. His close friend Stephen O'Shea joined, not just to document the journey, but to support Taylor, to learn, to help. By doing so, together, Taylor and Stephen created an extraordinary journey and the powerful film "Hell or High Seas." Several short clips related to this extraordinary film live on our site, and are available to view here and here.
Our conversation with writer and filmmaker Stephen O'Shea takes us deep into the invisible wounds of military service and the profound challenges of transition to civilian life. Stephen shares how veterans' bodies become programmed for adrenaline and stress during service, creating a physiological withdrawal when that environment suddenly disappears. The sailing journey wasn't just adventure for adventure's sake—it was carefully conceived as therapeutic, giving Taylor's body and mind positive associations with stress and excitement rather than negative ones.
Stephen speaks with authority, energy, and empathy about the plight faced by veterans, but also about his relationship with Taylor and the impact on his own mental health of what they went through together. Stephen's candid sharing about his own mental health struggles after the journey reveals how even a fraction of the stress experienced by service members can create lasting impacts. Their story illustrates why adventure therapy is gaining recognition worldwide—it combines community, purpose, and physical challenge in ways that address the complex dimensions of trauma and transition.
Today, Taylor runs his own nonprofit, taking veterans sailing as therapy-- "adventure therapy"-- clearly demonstrating how one healing journey can create ripples, on the high seas, that help countless others and Stephen continues making films that are helping to change the world.
"Hell or High Seas" is available on Amazon Prime. And if you're passionate about mental health stories that inspire hope and change, subscribe to Recovery Diaries for more conversations that illuminate the path from struggle to strength.
Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com.
Hello, this is Recovery Diaries In-Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. We are so delighted to have on our show today writer and documentary filmmaker Stephen O'Shea. In 2020, he released Hell or High Seas, a documentary film that follows US Navy veteran and Stephen's close personal friend, taylor Greger, as they sailed around Cape Horn to raise awareness for veteran suicide.
Gabe Nathan:Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are in their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiariesorg. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay or film, and you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere. You get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes and grow. And, of course, make sure to like, share and subscribe. Stephen O'Shea, welcome to Recovery Diaries In-Depth. It is a delight to have you here.
Stephen O'Shea:Well, thank you for having me.
Gabe Nathan:So you were a very important part of a film. The film is called Hell or High Seas and I would love it if you would just talk to people who are listening about this film, who may not know about it. Give us the 30 second overview of what this film is. Give us the 30-second overview of what this film is.
Stephen O'Shea:So the film is kind of a portrait of a veteran who struggled with PTSD, coming out of the Navy and actually attempted to commit suicide and when he survived that he decided to sail around Cape Horn, which is the very tip of South America, the Mount Everest of sailing, and he wanted to do it to raise awareness for veteran suicide, and he was my close friend, so I joined him and documented the entire experience.
Gabe Nathan:The film is extraordinary, and for so many reasons. First of all, it's beautiful to look at. I mean, you can't. There's no frame that's not absolutely gorgeous, um, and just visually arresting, um, but that's, I think that pales in comparison to the heart at the center of the film, and I really look at at the center of this film as the relationship between you and Taylor.
Gabe Nathan:You know, I think there are all kinds of suicide awareness advocates doing all kinds of different things to raise awareness. There's like pushup challenges and there's cold water things I don't know what the fuck they are, but you know what I'm talking about where the people dump this shit on their heads. I went on a journey in a 1963 VW Beetle up and down the East Coast with the lifeline number on the back to raise awareness. We had a guest on the show recently, Tim Pereira, who walked across the United States to raise awareness for suicide prevention. So there's people doing all of these things.
Gabe Nathan:But what's different about what you and Taylor did is you and Taylor did it together. I think a lot of people are doing these things solo, but I think there's something to be said about a bond, like a friendship, and you two doing this thing hand in hand Because so much of depression, other mental health challenges, suicide. It whispers a lie to us that we're alone, and I think your film shows so so beautifully. Instead of just telling people you are not alone, your film shows that, like, I am your dear friend and I will walk with you, I will sail with you, I will be with you through this challenge. So can you just talk a little bit about that uniqueness of that relationship?
Stephen O'Shea:Absolutely. You know, I think for me it was. Taylor was a close high school friend of mine and I had actually been conducting a lot of research and interviews with combat veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan for my PhD at the time in a book that I was writing. And I kind of reconnected with Taylor while he was in the military and I managed to go out to Guam and visit him and I interviewed some helicopter pilots out there. It was all kind of based around that research that I was doing. But I reconnected with Taylor and kind of learned a little bit more about where he was at in his story.
Stephen O'Shea:And I think that was the first time, you know, for two things. One was Taylor wasn't a combat veteran but he was exposed to a lot that I think you know maybe even combat veterans aren't at certain times and he wasn't getting vetted for PTSD or anything like that and he was experiencing a lot of the same symptoms. So that was kind of, you know, jarring and eye-opening to me. But then on the other side of that, you know, taylor was a close friend of mine. So this is the first time it had really become personal for me. You know, it's one thing to sit down with a stranger and to empathize with them, of course. But you know, to know somebody from when they were even, you know, a teenager, and to have followed their career and their life and then to reconnect like that, it really hit me in a place that you know compelled me, I guess, to act on his behalf.
Stephen O'Shea:But you know, I think for veterans at large was always our mission. So yeah, I mean, that was, you know the circumstances, the stars aligned and I was able to kind of join him on that journey and I'm so glad that I did. And you know, I think our bond grew stronger. I think we became kind of like brothers rather than friends. And you know, brothers you can fight with and you can argue with and you can get angry at. At the end of the day, you're always going to be there for them, that's absolutely how Taylor and I are now.
Gabe Nathan:So a couple of things. You brought up research that you were doing with combat veterans. How did that get started?
Stephen O'Shea:So I was an undergraduate at Texas A&M University in Texas and started just I volunteered to join a research program called After Combat and it was studying kind of the effects of moral injury in combat veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Stephen O'Shea:And so I joined in and helped, transcribed and conducted interviews with these men and women and I think at that time, you know, I was like 20, 21 years old and it just kind of hit me that these were my peers essentially, who went off and had a completely different experience, and it was something that I had no idea. You know you've got the sensationalized media story that's told about the wars that were ongoing in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I was shocked by how ignorant I was to so much of their experience, but especially their experience of returning to the civilian world and the struggles that kind of accompanied that. And so you know, I was pretty young back then but I was an aspiring writer and I definitely wanted, you know, to pursue a meaningful kind of story, and so that's really what I committed like the next 10 to 15 years of my life toward, and you know, everything kind of built really toward the Hell Or High Seas journey and that seems to be kind of like the pinnacle of all of that research coming together.
Gabe Nathan:So can you talk a little bit about re-entry into civilian life? Because I mean, I don't know, but I suspect that there ain't much done by the armed services to prepare folks for that transition. I mean, I can think even back to the American Civil War where people just was like, oh, the war is over and Lee surrendered Appomattox, and okay, you go back to running a dry goods store and you go back to doing this and that and it's you know. How do you, how do you wrap your head around that? That you're no longer this, either you're security patrol sphere or this killing machine or this, that you have to be in this constant state of hyper arousal? I feel like there's just nothing, that it's just okay, you know. Thanks, thanks for your service. Now go do your civilian thing. Is that accurate?
Stephen O'Shea:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know the easiest way to kind of frame your mind around it is to enter into the military. You know you've got a six weeks boot camp that kind of conditions you and prepares you for what you're going to experience. There's no reciprocal of that. Had a week-long course called TAPS, where you know they've essentially taught you how to apply for government jobs and kicked you out the door. So there, you know there really was no program on the back end, and still isn't, for veterans. And you know it's interesting.
Stephen O'Shea:You bring up the Civil War. That's, the post-traumatic stress is something that's been around forever and it's just the name for it has changed. And after the, the civil war, I think they called it like soldier's heart, they thought it had something to do with like palpitations of the heart. Um, you know world wars it was shell shock, uh. You know vietnam, and then you've you come to the current age, ptsd, uh, and what we've really discovered is that this you know there is absolutely the kind of mental aspect of wrapping your head back around the dichotomy of these existences, being in combat and being out in the roughest elements, and it's live or die every single day. And then you come back to the civilian world where people are fret. People are fretting over like what brand of product to buy at the grocery store. That's absolutely something that I think veterans struggle with.
Stephen O'Shea:But there is also something that's happening on a physiological level. Their brains are changing from stress and you know just the amount of time that they spend. It's really kind of, you know, startling when you study it and you learn how much is happening to their bodies and to their minds on a measurable level. So you know, once you've learned that, it's kind of like, okay, you can, especially for somebody like Taylor, it was. This isn't just something that's in my head, this is something that's happening to me physically, uh, and you know, when, once you kind of kind of can grasp that, you learn that you can, um, potentially overcome it. And and that's a really big thing, you know, for people who are experiencing depression or considering suicide, is it's this idea of this darkness that's never going to end, um, but just knowing that there there is hope and that there is the possibility of change and to come out of that darkness down the line, uh, I think was incredibly important for Taylor.
Gabe Nathan:And and for everyone. Because that that's also one of the lies that mental illness tells you is that it's always going to be this way. You are never going to get better. And if it isn't always going to be this way, then it's going to get worse. It's never going to get better. It may change, but it may change for the worst and your life will just be shittier. And to have anything that alters that narrative you know, whether it's your film, whether it's a good friend counsel therapist, it's a good friend counsel therapist anything that can alter that narrative, that's critical.
Gabe Nathan:I want to ask you I have kind of a bug up my butt about an issue related to veterans and transitioning into the world and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts about this, not to hijack the conversation and take it in a totally different direction, but I don't think I've ever really talked about this other than just casual conversation with people. I'm really curious to hear your views on this. So a very long time ago I thought I wanted to become a police officer and I registered for a municipal police academy. I trained all summer long to get ready for the physical exam and all that stuff took the psych eval. The written exam, entered in day one as a police officer candidate and day two was the physical exam, all the different tests, and that was the end of my career, which is another story. But, um, while I was in that world, I learned a lot, um, and one of the things that I learned is that veterans get preferential scoring treatment when it comes to law enforcement jobs. Um, I think you get like 10 extra points if you're a veteran or whatever.
Gabe Nathan:There are active efforts to bring in veterans to become cops and I am of the opinion that I don't know if veterans necessarily make great police officers.
Gabe Nathan:That's a thing that we should be doing. Police officers that that's a thing that we should be doing, because law enforcement is mostly social work and it is mostly de-escalating situations and communicating with people and listening and trying to get information and not making a situation worse. And I think the qualities of a soldier are very, very different than the qualities of an effective law enforcement officer. And I think also the kind of slipshod way that the armed forces kind of lets people out and doesn't address mental health concerns and then it's like, well, let's then give these people firearms and the power to arrest and the power to end someone's life. Um, I don't think that's such a hot idea. Um, the way the structures are now and I don't know if I'm putting you on the spot or not and I'm not asking you to agree with me or just nod your head I really want to know what you think. So I'm just throwing that in your lap.
Stephen O'Shea:I mean that's a really good point. It's an interesting kind of predicament, you know it's like you can look at Iraq and I think Afghanistan especially, and a lot of the military there were kind of like a police force. They weren't really held to the same accountability, maybe that our police are, or that we hope our police are right. But you know, uh, yeah, it's modern warfare is a different kind of beast and you know, other than maybe the marines who are really, you know, their boot camp is about breaking them down, to kill and to not hesitate and to have that instinct, you know.
Stephen O'Shea:But then you also have the, I think, on the flip side, a lot of our first responders are experiencing the same kind of negligence and mental health that the military has. So what you know military are experiencing coming out and and you know, having not been addressed, is the same that could be said for somebody who's been in the police for force for four or more years. Um, so, yeah, I mean it's, it's tricky. I think the solution to something like that is probably got to come from an institutional level and uh, you know it's, it's a tough one and I've and you know it's a tough one and we've talked at large about you know what we could be doing better for veterans.
Gabe Nathan:But I think a lot of that applies as well to our first responders military like law enforcement. They don't want any input from outsiders, they don't want to change. You know everything's fine here. You let us just do our thing, and it's very often not fine.
Gabe Nathan:And I was thinking too about the issue of retired law enforcement suicide and how it is not discussed and it is not. I don't think it's on anybody's radar. But you have these men and women who go into these careers in their 20s and work until 50, 55, and it's all they know. All their friends are cops, they're all their peers. All they know is that identity. And then one day that's gone, they're no longer in the club. They no know is that identity. And then one day that's gone, um, they're no longer in the club. Um, they no longer have that identity.
Gabe Nathan:And I mean so many retired Leos just take their own lives because they just feel like it's, they're bereft of something so important. Um, and it's the same thing with the military. Like, let's help these people realize that there is life after this and that you know, this career is not your whole thing and maybe it's part deprogramming, maybe it's part, again, social work, helping them navigate life on the outside, life on the outside, um, but I just feel like so often in the armed forces and in first responder culture, it's you get used up and then when you're useless, it's just like bye, um, and whatever happens to you, it's, it's not our problem anymore, um, it's, it's just such a shame because it's such a like a spit in the face of, I think, america's whole thank you for your service thing. It's so empty and hollow and the motivation behind it.
Stephen O'Shea:I kind of considered Taylor a bit of a case study for this idea of veterans coming out of the military. Are, of all military personnel, the most dangerous time in their life is their first year out of the military. It's not when they're in the military. Even for combat veterans it's their first year out and that's because they're at the highest risk of suicide. But if they can make it past that first year, you know there's something about that in my mind that you know that's like a statistic I just couldn't ignore. And so that kind of became what Hell Or High Seas was really about was giving Taylor something to chase and something to look forward to and a journey to kind of get us through that first year. And it was built on this idea of you know, like for Taylor and I it was the Iliad and the Odyssey. So the Iliad's a 10-year war and the Odyssey is a 10-year journey home. And it was always this idea of like this is what it takes after a war to fully come home and to be able to bury that oar. It's reciprocal, you know. It's like you can't just come home, spend a week decompressing and you're fine after that. Um, and a big part of you know, when we started on this journey, um, I kind of like would talk to Taylor and he'd we'd talk about his symptoms of PTSD after he got out of the military, and one of the ones that you know I had heard a lot from combat veterans as well was this idea of he'd just be sitting there and he'd get this rush of adrenaline and it'd freak him out and it'd kind of make him angry. You know, like you get all sorts of feelings and hormones flushing out of your system and in my mind this was, you know this was basically his body had been programmed to run on adrenaline and cortisol. He was 16 hour days flying, he was search and rescue in Guam. They didn't have a coast guard, so that was like how his body operated and when you rip that carpet out from under him, he still needs an outlet for all of that adrenaline, all of those hormones and that cortisol. And so sailing in my mind was going to be this kind of like therapeutic release for him. You know, you basically go out and instead of like having this negative connotation, with the excitement and the adrenaline and the stress that comes with, you know, military, this was sailing, this was fun and at times, like you pointed out, it's really beautiful and life-affirming. So it was like this idea of reprogramming that brain to associate these kind of like side effects with positivity rather than negativity.
Stephen O'Shea:And at the time adventure therapy wasn't really a term that was being thrown around, but it was so fascinating to see as we went on this journey and after we came back, adventure therapy was popping up on Capitol Hill in conversations that congressmen were having about veterans. You know it was a program that we ran into when we were in the Panama Canal. We ran into service members from the UK who were on an adventure therapy decompression mission on a sailboat. You know it was like this was an original idea for us, but to see that other people have already taken this idea and this notion and applied it to actually helping their armed services was really eye-opening to us.
Stephen O'Shea:You know it felt like we were really onto something and that this wasn't just like some pipe dream that we're pushing. This was something that's been proven viable and that other countries have picked up. And you know, I think the same can be said for people in the police. You know, like they're having this kind of experience high stress they're. You know, I'm not totally sure about all members of the police, but I'm sure the brotherhood, the identity has a big aspect and element to play with that. But you know, I would be very curious to see how far adventure therapy could go for people like that.
Gabe Nathan:Yeah, I mean, I think it's what you did with Taylor. It's, I mean, is sailing around Cape Horn replicable for everyone? No, but are there other versions of that? I mean there are so many different things that you can do that are physical in nature, that work different parts of the brain, that engage other aspects of creativity or energy or release.
Gabe Nathan:I'm thinking of something that I did at the psychiatric hospital where I worked with the staff, who were all traumatized and to varying degrees and falling apart every day. I put on a play with the staff. We rehearsed for three, four months and nobody had ever been in a show before, and it was an extraordinary way to tap into something in other people that they didn't know was there before, to help them feel connected to each other in a different way other than just survival on the unit and, you know, taking us out of that toxic, high stress environment and putting us in a theater where everything was safe, um, where we were depending on each other in a different way. You know, when you're on a stage, you're depending on the other actor to save you if you blow a line. You know you're depending on the actor to come in when it's their, their entrance. Um, the same way, we depended on each other, on the unit, to watch our back and all of that kind of stuff, but it I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I did this. I was like I, you know, I was a theater major and this is what I know, so like, let's just do this, um, but I think that that's replicable. Um, you know, you're in a workplace, you have colleagues who are stressed or whatever work a scene together. You know, go out and do something physical with each other about what recovery is or what collaboration is and what different experiences can yield.
Gabe Nathan:And something else you were saying about the most dangerous time for a veteran being a year out. I was also thinking about the psychiatric hospital that the most dangerous time, also related to suicide, is like two to four weeks post-discharge. That's the danger zone for a patient being discharged from a psychiatric hospital and there's lots of reasons for it. But really that safety net is gone. The structure of like this is what you're doing at nine o'clock. This is what you're doing at 10 o'clock. This is what you're doing at nine o'clock. This is what you're doing at 10 o'clock. This is what you're doing at 11. The community. There's a psych tech sitting on East wing. If you want, 24 hours a day, we rotate every hour. If you want to sit and talk, he's right there in that chair. Your medication is being given out.
Gabe Nathan:At this time, all of that at discharge gets taken away and coping again with life on the outside, losing all of that, that's a dangerous time, and preparing patients for that, preparing patients' families for that, it's essential, the same way that preparing veterans like, look, you think you're in danger. Now you need to be aware of what's coming and this is how you can protect yourself. Here are some guardrails that you can set up. This is what your friends and family need to know. Here are some symptoms you may be exhibiting.
Gabe Nathan:Because Taylor didn't know initially, right, um, that what he was experiencing was PTSD, um, so that. And that's not even family and friends. That's the person themselves living in ignorance of what's going on in their body and their mind and how dangerous that can be. So, yeah, the information just absolutely it's just not there and the support isn't there. So I have a question for you about the intention behind the trip, and you were talking about putting that hyped up energy in Taylor to use in this way? Did it pan out? That way the intention behind the trip? Can you talk about that a little bit?
Stephen O'Shea:Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, cause, like in theory, you've always got this idea of how things will play out. Uh, and you know, I think it, I think it worked very well to some extent. But then there would be these periods of time where we'd be landlocked, um, and we're not sailing and there isn't that outlet, and you would really see Taylor sink and he'd disappear into his cabin for like a week at a time and I wouldn't see him. And we're on this tiny, you know, 36 foot boat. You know it could be awkward at times, it could be stressful, and then I'd be worried about him.
Stephen O'Shea:And you know, I think the one that really stands out to me was when we were in Roatan, honduras, there was two back-to-back tropical storms that hit the island and we were just at an anchorage and you know there was some stress there. We were kind of like short on supplies, some early obstacles in the trip that we were hoping it was going to be a little bit more smooth sailing, and that's actually when we had our fight. That's, you know, kind of documented in the film and it was the lead up to that. Yeah, I just like, I think I was frustrated with Taylor because he kind of disappeared, fallen off the map a bit, and then I think that was a little bit of that withdrawal from some of that. But really, you know, I think that the biggest point in that trip to me when things seemed to really turn around for Taylor was when John Rose joined the journey in Ecuador. So we were about halfway through and you know, I think it was going well, it was kind of the idea was working. But Taylor really came back to life when this trip became about helping more than just itself. Uh, you know, it's, it's. It's one thing to have this abstract ideal of doing this mission for all veterans, um, but to bring somebody on, uh, in person and, and you know physical form, and to be able to talk and and guide, help, guide that person, I think was huge for Taylor. And you know, I really think that that opened his eyes to that being kind of his vocation and calling after the military. You know, I'm not sure how much it's been broadcast here, but he's got his own nonprofit now and it's still Skeleton Crew Sailing.
Stephen O'Shea:Skeleton Crew Adventures is what we started our journey under and so he's doing that and he's taking veterans, you know, on adventures but just out sailing as well, and you know, to kind of bring it back to tie into some of what you're talking about, this idea of community. You know I love art therapy and my sister's a music therapist and there's so much to be said about this building of neural pathways that you know maybe have been broken down over time and you know a big part of what's going on with like veterans and hallucinogenic type therapy approaches is around. That you know psilocybin and this rebuilding of neural pathways and it's showing amazing, incredible results. But I do think that you know so much of where you see these kinds of intangible results is in this idea of community. Like adventure therapy.
Stephen O'Shea:Sure, you can like Taylor could have gone out and he could have done this trip by himself, but I don't think it would have been nearly as effective, if not even effective at all.
Stephen O'Shea:And in fact there was one point in the journey where Taylor did sail by himself and he was gung-ho on heading straight for Cape Horn in the dead of winter and any experienced sailor will tell you that that's a suicide mission. So, um, you know, I think one of the key elements of adventure therapy is it gets you in the community, it gets you out into nature, where you're away from all of these devices and distractions and you're able to really bond with people who have been through similar experiences, um, but then that are in a shared experience together. So, yeah, I mean I love the kind of narrative of play as well and that same idea of relying on people and creating something, and I think all of that's so beautiful and really, you know, the ideal therapy for anybody would be just a combination of all of these things. Yeah, yeah, and I mean that was 10 years ago. Really, you know, the ideal therapy for anybody would be just a combination of all of these things.
Gabe Nathan:Yeah yeah, and I mean, that was 10 years ago and we just had a little reunion on the state hospital grounds where we did the show and it just meant so much to see these people again and to remember, and all of those feelings come back and they weren't all good.
Stephen O'Shea:Yeah, I mean, I was, I was.
Gabe Nathan:I was the director and I was I was a taskmaster, like I was not. You know, sometimes you have to be not nice to get the result that you need, um, but it was mostly nice and remembering it was really beautiful. Um, kind of semi-related to that. I mean, I will tell you that when we were doing that play, I was losing my mind. I was really not in a good place mentally and should probably not have been doing. Taking on what I took on in addition to my regular job and everything else that was going on in my life. It was too much and it was not good for me personally. So I have to imagine that it was a tremendous load on you and feeling responsible for Taylor and the project and staying alive, which is something we didn't have to worry about when we were rehearsing a play. So I'm just curious about how you were able to maintain and what the impact was like on your mental health and how you kept yourself okay.
Stephen O'Shea:You know, you might be the first person to ever actually ask me that question. Welcome, welcome to that question. Yeah, yeah, I have thought about it, though it's a really interesting. You know, as far as like when we were planning and trying to execute this trip, far as like when we were planning and trying to execute this trip, um, mentally, I was probably just young and enthusiastic and eager.
Stephen O'Shea:Uh, you know, I might've had some kind of like uh, civilian guilt, if that's a thing, just from, uh, interviewing all these combat veterans and having seen what they've gone out and sacrificed, um, and I'm not like, like you know, I need to sacrifice for my country. It's more like for my friends and my community. And so I was, in a way, eager, you know, not in a sense of a rite of passage, I was like 27 at that time but I wanted to do something, like physically, you know, like I'd been writing and interviewing veterans and my book hadn't yet been published. So it really felt like I'd just been immers and interviewing veterans and my book hadn't yet been published. So it really felt like I'd just been immersing myself in this narrative and hadn't really made my own sacrifice yet. So I wanted to do this trip, I had no idea what it was going to entail. You know, you can kind of try and prepare yourself for that and you can wrap your head around it to some extent, you can plan, um, but uh, I think it was when I came back from the flannel leg, when we went around Cape Horn, um, and my girlfriend now now my wife, uh, you know greet, pick me up at the airport, and we spent a couple of days in Houston and I don't think I could have told you then and it's something I've maybe taken a long time to come around to realizing but I would have these kind of moments where I just needed to shut myself into a room and be alone and I'd get angry at her and she was being so amazing, you know, she was being so patient and kind and I was experiencing, I think for the first time, what Taylor had experienced coming out of the military. So many veterans had experience and if, even if what I was experiencing was a sliver of that, it was jarring and it was disturbing, and you know, I think it took me several months, if not years, to fully come out of that and uh, and feel, you know, back to my original self. But I, I struggled with anger after that trip for a while.
Stephen O'Shea:Um, and I, I, you know, I just, I think it's just that high stress environment that that really has an effect on everybody. It's, it's, it's really not like this personal thing, like, oh, he just couldn't handle it. But you know, that's, I don't think, that's real. Um, I think if you're exposed to that level of stress and that much cortisol is flowing through your body for any given period of time, any prolonged period of time, you're going to have these kinds of side effects. Um, so that was, you know, another step in this journey of just kind of like learning and understanding. But to have it experience, to experience it myself even you know a fraction of what most military members experience. You know it sucks, it's, it's not fun, and I don't think people who haven't experienced anything like that could ever fully understand it.
Gabe Nathan:Well, and I wonder if that was part of the anger right that you went through this experience that your girlfriend now your wife didn't, and so and again, not to bring it back to law enforcement. But I hear that over and over again. So many law enforcement relationships and marriages can't handle the weight of, okay, the police officer goes through this and the civilian spouse doesn't get it, and then the officer spouse resents the civilian spouse and then the officer spouse resents the civilian spouse and you have no idea what I go through. And you're talking about the copier at your office and you know all these things and I went through all of this and I can't make you understand. You know, and it's so interesting that Taylor's experience and disappearing into his cabin and that that kind of bled into into you and your experience. I'm so glad that you were able to come out on the other side of that yeah, absolutely yeah, it's, it's.
Stephen O'Shea:I mean it's, it was a journey for both of us and uh, you know, I think, uh, from my perspective, you really um, you know, I'm a writer and I don't like it was even kind of strange to be a subject in the film. I kind of just wanted to be behind the camera most of the time. But it absolutely, and I think it served the story for it to be both of us for sure that's so interesting to me too.
Gabe Nathan:I'm a writer as well, but also I've done Recovery Diaries, videos and as a theater major and I have acted and put myself out there. But it's this like it's a real push and pull of wanting to kind of disappear. Um, I'm much more comfortable behind the screen, you know, writing away. Um, did you have to be coaxed?
Stephen O'Shea:to be a visual you know to be part of the story uh, you know, I think at times it was really just I'd, I'd acknowledge that there was something missing, a missing element to the story, um, that you know taylor couldn't give me, or that he wouldn't. Um, um, so you know, at times I would, I would have to kind of fill those gaps um myself. Uh, so nobody, if anybody was doing the coaxing, it was just me coaxing myself. So I don't know how that works. If that counts, that counts.
Gabe Nathan:It does count. Yes, um, so okay, this next, this, this question is a little touchy and I've been thinking about it throughout our entire conversation about, like, okay, should, do I bring this up? Do I not bring this up? And look, I'm an anxious person, I have a lot of insecurities and a lot of anxiety, and so it's hard for me to do these kinds of things. So I hope that you will understand that, and I know that you will. I know that this is all in my head, but you're a writer, I'm a writer.
Gabe Nathan:Words are very, very important to both of us and I know that and I love that. You're also someone who does suicide awareness advocacy. I'm someone who does suicide awareness advocacy. I'm someone who does suicide awareness advocacy. So I want to have a conversation with you about something that you said very, very, very early in the interview that I have been obsessing about the entire time I've been talking.
Gabe Nathan:You said the phrase commit suicide, and so this is something that's very, very, very often talked about in the suicide awareness community, mental health community, and especially it's the beginning of September, it's suicide awareness month, which I have a lot of feelings about, but anyway, that's another story. I I try to not use that phrase? Um, because we commit crimes, we commit sins, and suicide is neither. And there's a lot of controversy and debate about this. And this is what I want to talk to you about, about your feelings about it, because I I have gone back and forth about it in my life, the feeling that, like you know what, like it is so ingrained in people's vernacular that it just rolls off the tongue and people say it and people don't mean it in that way, and that it's kind of pedantic to be like let me just educate you about language and words matter and da, da, da and like.
Gabe Nathan:So, like I've been that guy yeah, I've been on the receiving end of it and I've been on the education end of it um, the flip side of that is that words do matter and um, that, if, if we can work to and of course, as you know as a writer, language is always evolving, it is constantly changing, and so if we can be part of that evolution of language, to just use fact-based terms he died by suicide, he killed himself, he took his own life, took his own life If we can excise that from our vocabulary and then use it, and then that has a ripple effect, like everything does. I don't know why not, but so I'm just curious for your thoughts and I hope you don't feel like I'm correcting you or like whatever. I just want to have a conversation about it.
Stephen O'Shea:That's no, that's absolutely fair and I think you nailed it when it's just one of those vernacular things that rolls off the tongue that I don't even think twice about, and I've been better about it in the past. You know he attempted suicide. That's usually it's almost like you throw in a committed as like a stalling filler word type of thing. Yeah, yeah, no, I completely understand what you're saying and it's, it's definitely something that you know you have to deprogram out of your mind, right? It's just that's, that's all we've heard growing up and our whole lives is that term committed suicide, and it's almost like those two go together in your brain and you have to like pry them apart. And, yeah, it's clearly it's. It's still an ongoing struggle and something that you know I've got to recommit myself to, apparently, but I agree that it should I see what you did there recommit.
Stephen O'Shea:But I, you know, I certainly agree with you and it's got that negative connotation that doesn't need to be associated.
Gabe Nathan:And it's still everywhere. One of my favorite films, knives Out, which wasn't made that long ago, it's in there twice. I mean I just I hear it all the time and it's always like just a little shh. And again, some advocates, some loss survivors don't care, it doesn't matter to them and it's the same thing as, like people, first, language, I'm a person with schizophrenia. Some advocates say I'm, I'm taking back schizophrenic and I'm, I'm just using that and that's how I identify, and so I don't know. I think language is so nuanced and and interesting, um, and evolving. So thank you for letting me have that conversation with you and quell my anxiety enough to do it. So when did hell or high seas come out?
Stephen O'Shea:Let's see, that was 2020.
Gabe Nathan:I think in the midst of the pandemic wonderful time for a film to have a premiere. I know You're doing a lot of virtual things, I'm assuming.
Stephen O'Shea:Yeah, yeah, we tried different virtual. What were they? Film festivals.
Gabe Nathan:Mm-hmm.
Stephen O'Shea:And those just weren't really working for us. And you know, those just weren't really working for us. So we ultimately did, you know, we kind of like it was 2020 October, I think the vaccines had come out and we did a kind of premiere in New York where we required the vaccine slip to show, you know, that you had been vaccinated and then you could come and the turnout was pretty good, I think. You know, all things considered, it wasn't great, but we, you know, we've premiered the film and we had a little bit of a red carpet rollout and everything and it seemed to seem to go pretty well. And then it was a push to kind of get it out digitally so that as many people as possible could watch it and get to experience that, Because that was big for us is, you know, every day that film wasn't being shared was, you know, people that couldn't be helping. So we're trying to get it out there as fast as we could.
Gabe Nathan:And it is absolutely extraordinary and, as we talked about before we started the interview, if you have Amazon Prime, you can watch it for free, and you'd better go and do that. If you don't have Amazon Prime, there are lots of other places that you can catch it and you can get tastes of it. There are many documentaries that we made as part of recovery diaries. You can see those on our site or on our youtube channel. Um, and my final question to you is so it's been years now. Um, what have you been up to? What are you doing?
Stephen O'Shea:uh, so I'm still making films. Um, still making films, a lot of like kind of smaller scale, 30 minute type stuff. But I worked for a TV show called Around Texas where we kind of highlighted interesting research and individuals in the state of Texas that were doing powerful work. And then the last thing that I've kind of just completed was a 30-minute PBS spot for a documentary about service dogs for veterans and we actually got to interview Gary Sinise, a congressman, and then one guy, cole Lyle, who kind of like single-handedly pushed some legislation through to help veterans get service dogs the PAWS Act. He was kind of like the arbiter and author of that bill and he was just a veteran who was a civilian who went and lobbied, you know, by himself on Capitol Hill just of his own initiative and accord, and ultimately, you know, his service dog was kind of an advocate for that whole bill and helped, you know, push it through and that passed, you know in 2022, I believe, and so that's hopefully coming out this Veterans Day 11-11.
Gabe Nathan:Very good Well, Stephen O'Shea, it was a joy to have you here. They're doing extraordinary things in the world and we're just so, so grateful to you.
Stephen O'Shea:Oh well, thank you very much for having me. This was a real pleasure, Thank you.
Gabe Nathan:Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. We are so grateful to our guest, stephen O'Shea. In 2020, he released a film called Hell or High Seas that follows his journey along with his friend and US Navy veteran, taylor Greger, as they sailed around Cape Horn to raise awareness for veteran PTSD and suicide. You can watch that film on Amazon Prime and you can also find snippets on our website. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiariesorg. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos and content about mental health, empowerment and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.