Recovery Diaries In Depth

A Black Mental Health Advocate & Survivor Speaks: Jasmin Pierre | RDID; 203

• Recovery Diaries • Season 2 • Episode 203

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Jasmin Pierre is the creator of The Safe Place, an award-winning app that offers free and affordable resources centering on Black mental health. Jasmin created The Safe Place for so many reasons-- because, when police respond to psychiatric emergencies and the person in crisis is black, the results can be deadly. Because of the pervasive and dangerous philosophy in many Black homes, like her own, that "what happens in this house stays in this house." Because of cultural barriers fueled by systemic racism and lack of access creating a world where there are precious few Black mental health clinicians, so Black people are stuck with providers who don't look like them, and who, invariably, do not understand their experience. Because so many Black people were brought up to not talk about it.

Well, Jasmin's talking about it. And, today, she's talking about it on Recovery Diaries in Depth with our Executive Director and host, Gabriel Nathan. Jasmin and Gabe are old friends, having met in-person at an event almost seven years ago. Their shared passion for mental health reform and revolution, and their mutual affection for each other's creativity and compassion is evident in this genuine conversation that covers so many topics, including crisis response, childhood sexual assault and abuse, the importance of rest and refueling, saying "no", and the carceral realities of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization. Jasmin's been a patient, Gabe's been staff, and their shared experience, though extremely different brings nuance and insight to this conversation. 

Jasmin has been a fierce advocate for Black mental health and a source of inspiration and hope for many who have been marginalized in so many ways since the beginning of this country. In their conversation, Jasmin and Gabe talk about suicide prevention, specifically as it relates to the Black community. Jasmin speaks about the inherent media bias surrounding the recent death of Kyren Lacy, a former Louisiana State University football player and wide receiver. Lacy's death, and the media maelstrom around it show us that, while we have made improvements in mental health and suicide; for Black people in America, we still have miles and miles and miles to go before we sleep. We are so grateful to Jasmin for everything she is doing to empower, educate, help, and honor through her extraordinary advocacy. Read her powerful essay about her own trauma and childhood sexual abuse; and share her interview far and wide.

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com.


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Gabe Nathan:

Hello. This is Recovery Diaries in Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. We are so grateful to have Jasmin Pierre on the show today. She's a mental health advocate, a peer support specialist, and the creator of The Safe Place, a culturally aware mental health app that teaches how racism impacts the mental health of the Black community. Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor, folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are on their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed, and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiaries.org. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment, and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay, or film. And you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes, and grow. And of course, make sure to like, share, and subscribe. Jasmin Pierre, welcome to Recovery Diaries in Depth. I'm so grateful that you're here. It's it's really wonderful to see you.

Jasmin Pierre:

Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to see you too.

Gabe Nathan:

It's a pleasure. And I I love the phrase see you. Um, and like we're audio only, so unfortunately, listeners can't see us. Um, but I can see you and you can see me. And I feel like there is so little of people seeing each other. Um I don't know if it's nowadays, maybe it's been forever. Um, but I feel like we do not see each other um the way we really, really need to as human beings. And there's just I think there's just such a cost to that. Um and I don't know. I want to hear your thoughts and feelings on what's important about seeing people and having people see you.

Jasmin Pierre:

I feel like just human connection in general is so important to our experience. Like, I feel like since the pandemic, things have changed so much. And I feel like things just don't connect like they used to when I was like, say, in high school or college, and I was around people all the time and we would hang out more. Like, it's just not the same. I mean, I still do have those friends, but a lot of us we just don't get to get to, we don't get to be together as much as we used to. And I really wish that things could go back to feeling like normal again. Cause it, I feel like it's like that for a really long time. And I think it's been like that for a lot of us. I feel like a lot of us feel like just human connection has just not been the same.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and actually doing this on Riverside, it feels like a Zoom call, which is actually really like it it feels it has that COVID feel to it when kind of everything went virtual and like I was doing, I was seeing my therapist on Zoom, and I hated it. Uh, he talks so low and so quiet. I couldn't fucking hear him. Um, you know, there's that that lag. Um, it was so frustrating. And it really does change things, it really gets in the way of like authentic human connection. Um, and of course, we're gonna do our best here um with the limitations that we have. You're in New Orleans, I'm in Philadelphia, like there's only so much we can do, right? But I think that the other part of not seeing what happens when we don't see each other is we make up stories. We make up stories about the other person who we're not seeing. Um oh, they're they're distracted because of X or I'm not interesting, or they're they're wish they were somewhere else, or they're you we make up stories, and I feel like we we do that about people all the time. Um and I don't know, do you do you feel like that?

Jasmin Pierre:

Actually, I do. I feel like I make up those stories in my head sometimes, like they're probably not gonna want to be bothered right now because I feel like all of us are exhausted too. I feel like that's another part of why human connection is not the same, because everything in this economy is really expensive. Like a lot of my friends don't really have time to get together like we used to anymore. Like, we we do our best to like have a group chat, and like sometimes we see each other virtually if we can't see each other in person, but it's like everybody's so busy, and this economy has just taken away a lot of the human connection that we be in our lives.

Gabe Nathan:

And a lot of the joy, like, even just little small pleasures like a cup of coffee out somewhere else. You're really thinking twice about that. Like, do I really need that in my life? Can I afford that? Um, and of course, that's like then can be a social limiter because like I want that cup of coffee with a friend. And uh I don't know if I can do that. I really don't know if I can do that. Um, and so it it it really does place extra stressors, and we know, of course, you know, not to get too deep too fast, but financial hardship, feeling stressed about paying bills, um, juggling expenses, maybe needing to pick up extra work, um that mortgage payment due, the the electricity bills, that can all lead to suicide, right? If we're if we're feeling like we're suffocating just in our daily lives, uh just trying to stay afloat, um, that can have a really bad outcome. Um, and I don't know, you know, they the the suicide stats are always, I think they're a year or two behind, um, just because it takes so much time to get that data and accrue it. And I feel like the numbers are always uh underestimated anyway. Um, but that's that's a real cost to this. It's a real cost to things costing more.

Jasmin Pierre:

I'm really glad that she brought up the suicide aspect of it because a lot of us that work in the mental health have been talking about this. Like, there are certain things that you can't help if you don't have money. Like if you don't have a place to stay, like there's homeless people that are dealing with so much, especially with this government and how they're being treated. Like, you're right about the statistics too. Like, it's always under they I feel like it's never been on like the right, um, the right number because they never really get the data that they're supposed to. That's what I feel like. Mental health has always been behind in general. So I'm like, yeah, the numbers are high, but I'm like, honestly, they're higher than that, than what they're reporting.

Gabe Nathan:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I and there's so many reasons for that. Um, and I think, you know, I think we need to talk about systemic racism when we're talking about these numbers, because I feel like black and brown people who take their own lives, um they're not they're not treated in the same way, they're not counted in the same way. Uh, I feel like we're always talking about middle-aged and older white men when we're talking about suicide. Um, and I think there's lots of reasons for that. But if you look at who is in suicidology, who is in research, who is um in like suicide prevention organizations, it's it's white people. It's um and so the the data is going to be skewed, right? Um and I just feel like that's that's really muddying the waters. But I think overall, um, it's underreported every year. I mean, I would say by 25-30 percent that the rates are the actual numbers are higher. Um, so I'd love to hear your your thoughts and views about this.

Jasmin Pierre:

The systemic racism aspect of it, it's really serious. Like, like you said, they really don't put us in the reports. Everybody is pretty much white in the field. And because of the work I do and like all the research that I know, I just there's a lot of racism when it comes to black people who are in a suicide crisis. Like, they don't see us as somebody who needs help, they see us as a criminal most of the time. And I've experienced this myself. Like, if I ever feel that way, I'm literally scared to go to the hospital. That's the only time I ever feel scared. Like, if I had the flu or a broken bone or something, it wouldn't feel the same. But like anytime that I feel like that, it feels like the healthcare system becomes jail to me. So it's really hard for black people to talk about it in general because of how we've been treated historically through psychology. And just because the people who are in the system, in the healthcare system, they don't really care about us. They don't care about black people's mental health. Like during slavery, there was a part, there was a point in time where they thought that black people couldn't even go through mental illness. So it's just a lot of systemic racism, like you said. And that's what helps, I mean, not helps, that's what's stopping them from reporting data correctly, because they're not actually going and asking black people, like when I read like research data, a lot of times we're like not represented at all. They don't know the cultural aspect of it too. Like, I'm not saying that well, no, actually, I am saying black people can go through this differently just because of the systemic racism that we face, just because of like trying to find the support is really hard. In our neighborhoods, um, we really don't talk about it a lot because of the systemic racism part of it. So it's just I could talk about this forever game, but I really could.

Gabe Nathan:

That's what we're here for, Jasmin. That's what that's what we're here for. And I I feel like, you know, I I made a post yesterday about risk factors and protective factors um for suicide, right? And that everybody, everybody, anybody is at risk for taking their own life. Me, you, anybody, right? And we all have risk factors, things that may push us in that direction. And we all have protective factors, which may help guard us against taking our own lives, right? And just like certain risk factors, like we talked about at the beginning of the show, like financial hardship, boom, it's a risk factor. Uh, experiencing trauma or abuse, it's a risk factor, losing someone really, really close to you to suicide risk factor. I feel like just being black or brown in America in particular is a risk factor. Um, like you it makes you I want to hear what you think about this, uh more uh susceptible to take your own life simply because uh being that minority in this country, it's it's an added pressure and weight on you. And it's it's it's an unfair um painful thing that you have to carry in a country that is frankly it's a racist country.

Jasmin Pierre:

Can I be really vulnerable right now?

Gabe Nathan:

I hope so. I hope you feel like you can be.

Jasmin Pierre:

So a couple of months ago, I actually did try to to end things because of something that happened. So I was um giving services, I'm a peer support specialist, and right now I'm working um to give black people more um suicide prevention resources. So we do support groups and stuff. And um, our support group got hacked by some racist people, and they showed us um sexual images that gave like really racist um ideations. So um not only was I angry about them doing that, but also being sexually abused, I've I've experienced that. It was like, okay, first I'm being shown sexual images against my will, something that really triggers me because I I I live with PTSD depression. A lot of things have happened to me because I've been sexually abused, and then they're doing this because they're being racist. So um it literally drove me to want to end my life. Um and I'm still having a hard time, Gabe. I'm still having a hard time. Um I don't understand how people can be so evil, and um I'm sorry.

Gabe Nathan:

There's nothing to be on evil. They can, and there's nothing to be sorry about. There's there's no I'm sorry on this show, okay? You you I'm I'm I'm angry with you, and I'm grateful that you're here, that you're that you're here on the show, and that you're here um in the larger context of the word here. And people can be really evil, as we know. Um, and of course, you as a survivor of sexual trauma and incest and you know, you know, um, and people can also be good and beautiful and nuanced and complicated, and there's a whole mess of human beings in the world. And I when I'm struggling, and I was also struggling with thoughts of ending my own life uh a couple weeks ago, um, for very different reasons. But I I I try to hold on by remembering that there's so much out there that's lovely and that I'm curious about and that I'm interested in and that I want to be a part of um more than I want to leave. Um and again, I'm just so glad that you're still here and still fighting, and it is hard. Um it's sometimes it's the hardest thing to to be able to stay. Um but and I I you know the other thing, Jasmin, like I being in the suicide prevention and mental health world, like I'm not gonna blow a bunch of candy-coated smoke up your ass and give you like stupid aphorisms and um like it gets better and like dumb shit like that. You know what I mean? Like, it's just fucking hard. Um and it will be hard, and it will be easier and it will be hard again, and we know that, right? We know the ebb and flow of recovery and of life with mental illness. Um, that it's it's it's everything, right? Um, like that movie title, it's everything everywhere all at once. Um, and that can be a lot sometimes, especially when you're helping others, which is something that I want to talk about too. Um like how do you like your app is called Safe Place. How do you create a safe place for Jasmin when you're trying to do that for other people?

Jasmin Pierre:

Gosh, I think you just called me out right now. I think I'm still actually trying to figure that out.

Gabe Nathan:

Got you. No, because it's the same, it is the same thing for me, right? Oh, okay, wow. You know, I'm the executive director of recovery diaries, and we have all these stories, and and I get submissions, and I'm reading about childhood sexual abuse, and I'm reading about PTSD, and I'm I'm constantly exposed to all this stuff, right? Um, and I have my own mental illness to deal with, and raising two children, and and all like there's all of that happening. And if someone asked me, well, well, how what how do you take care of it? I'd be like, I don't know, you know, because I don't, I don't know. Um but I think it's so it's so important that we ask ourselves that because we sling a lot, we play a good game, right? You have to put your oxygen mask on before you can put someone else's, and you have to help yourself before you can help someone else, and you have to, but like there's such a sense of responsibility that we have as advocates and as you know, people who are are helping that we have to uh keep going. And I feel like we get uh lost sometimes. Um and you know, any anything that you do to help yourself, I'm more I'm I'm not more asking, but I'm also asking like for me to listen and maybe take something from you to be like, oh, I should try that too. Um how do you how do you help Jasmin?

Jasmin Pierre:

Well, one thing I have been doing lately is telling people no more often when I when I feel like I'm drained, because I have been so bad at that over the years. Like, even if I'm not doing okay, I'm always trying to help other people. And I've been realizing I can't do that to myself because, like you were saying earlier, like if you don't you know put the oxygen mask on yourself first, like it's you're gonna drain yourself. Like for me, I always say like you can't pour into an empty cup. But some people are like, you need to have something in the glass in the first place. Like, don't even let it get empty. And that's what I've been learning. So when I tell people no now, I don't feel as guilty as I used to. And I'm learning that that has been giving me some peace because I'm like, you do help people a lot. I I have to tell myself that I'm like, I'm always doing something to help others, but I'm like, if I don't help myself, if I don't get the rest that I need, I might not make it. Like, people don't realize stress can kill you. So I'm like, yeah, um, before my dad died, that's something that he told me. Um, that if I didn't get my stress under um better control, that it could kill me. And he was worried about that all the time. So I'm just doing more of um saying no. I'm trying my best to get more rest because that's something else that I don't do enough of, especially as a black person. Like we are told to work, we're told to work twice as hard in this country to get ahead of everybody else because of racism. And it ends up like having us being exhausted over all the time, over exhausted, because we think that we always have to do everything. So sometimes on the weekend, I don't get upset at myself if I just want to sleep the whole entire weekend and just stay in bed or just um watch something that I watch a show on Netflix or something that I'm trying to catch up on and not feel guilty for like just um just not doing anything much. Like I used to think that that was being lazy, not always having something to do, but I've been learning like it's okay to do nothing sometimes. That helps me.

Gabe Nathan:

Do you feel like that was the message that you internalized from childhood?

Jasmin Pierre:

Yes, from childhood. I think a lot of us um have internalized that because we were always taught to be strong, always taught to work hard. So it's just something that has, I don't even think we realize it's been ingrained in us so much until somebody points it out. It wasn't until I started actually advocating and going to therapy myself and trying to get help for myself that I realized like, oh, this is something that I've been dealing with for a long time, and I'm still dealing with it. Like, it doesn't just go away, like I'm still dealing with it a lot. But the fact that I'm finally finding things that make it that are making me feel a little bit more at ease, I have to give myself credit for at least that.

Gabe Nathan:

Absolutely. And and also, like you said, removing that guilt if you want to sleep the weekend away or you know, watch Net binge on a show. And I think there's this idea that self-care is I think people look at self-care as like bullshit anyway, or they look at it as okay, these forms of self-care are okay and acceptable. And these forms are laziness or you know what I mean? And I feel like we need to understand and accept uh that self-care looks different for every single person. You know, what is self-care for you? Maybe I would choose something different, maybe, but that it's whatever you need. It's as individualized as medication, right? A medication might work for me, it might have zero effect on you or a counter-effect on you. But it's it has to be individualized. And if self-care to you is Netflix and Nap, then that's that's great. And that you should be doing that, right? Not guilting yourself and going, oh shit, you know, I slept, you know, all of Saturday and halfway into Sunday. So what? If that's what you need to recharge so that you can do the work that you do, that's what you need.

Jasmin Pierre:

That's so true. And then um, I also go through um something called premenstrual dysphoric disorder. I can't remember if I talked about that in my article, but um it's really difficult to deal with. I got this from from trauma, from being sexually abused, and um it makes me really sick for basically two weeks out of every month. Like I get really, really sick before I um start my menstrual cycle. And um it has um physical aspects to the illness, and it also has um mental health aspects to it as well. Um, usually a lot of women feel suicidal for um the whole two weeks. Um, and um I usually do as well. So that's a lie feeling very suicidal for two weeks out of every month, and then I'm always um exhausted as well. Um, I get body aches. Uh I'm I'm sorry if I'm rambling about this, but it's like a lot to deal with. Um so dealing with that, I um have been learning that I have to get more rest. Like um, they told me when I got diagnosed, like you're going to need more rest. It's gonna make you more tired. Um, you can't get down on yourself because you feel this way. So um taking those weekends to myself and just getting more sleep, like it actually does help me a lot. So um I'm hoping that um eventually I'll get to a place where I feel fully like um okay with getting more rest because I still kind of sometimes feel like I'm lazy because I I deal with what I deal with, but uh that's something that's also been ingrained in me as well. Like thinking that um, like I said, if you're not doing something, you're being lazy. But I have to realize that I go through a lot because of what I've been through. Um a lot of people don't realize being sexually abused um can cause so much down the line. I I didn't even realize it. So um it's just something that I'm still getting used to, but I'm doing my best to just be more easier on myself.

Gabe Nathan:

I think people have no clue about how so much of what happens to us, especially when we're children, um, impacts us throughout our entire lives. Um and you know, changes the brain and uh gives us that sense of that hyper-arousal, that fear response, um being scared when there's actually nothing scary happening, but in our minds we're we're feeling threatened and and are responding that way. Um I I just feel like there's so much that people don't know and understand, which is why I'm really grateful that you're an advocate, that you're someone who's like, okay, um I have had terrible things happen to me in my life, um, and I'm going through a lot, but I am going to also come forward and talk about it. Um because there are so many people who can't or don't want to. Um, and I respect that also. Like I I I understand, and not everybody can be or wants to be public. And, you know, I get that. Um, but there are people like you who do, and I think it's just incredibly important. And I want to hear a little bit about the safe place and how you got to a point where you felt like this is something that I can I can this is something I can do, I can handle, and I can offer this to people.

Jasmin Pierre:

So the safe place app at the Culturally Aware Mental Health Act for the Black Community, we talk about how race impacts the mental health of the black community, and we also give culturally aware of resources. And the reason why I started this in the first place is because ever since I was a little girl, when I heard about mental illness, it was either we're supposed to pray or be strong. Like, we don't go to therapy. That's all I heard growing up. So um the first time I learned somebody in my family um dealt with mental illness, I was an adult. Like, I didn't even realize my uncle Vietnam War had ATSD until my mom told me. So I knew something was different with him when I was younger, and I noticed that some people treated him differently, but nobody really talked about it. So um that was like my first time really learning about it. But um, when I first um let's see, I went I went to the emergency room. Um I think I was 21 years old. It was not a time that they made me stay. Um it was a very horrible experience. When I got out there, I told myself, hey, this is fucking horrible. I think we can know about this shit. That that's maybe a little fire under me because I'm like, I never had the mental health system today. I just uh it was a complete shock to me because I had never I had never gone to the hospital or something like that before. So um I decided to become a mental health advocate in general at first. Like I started advocating and then maybe about five or six years in, I started to do more research about black mental health because I started to I wanted to know more why, like, why did we not want to go to a therapist? Why do we uh not talk about it? Because I mean I always knew it was a thing, but I didn't understand why. So when I started to research more, I'm like, oh my god, it's because of systemic racism. That's why we don't talk about it. They made us feel like black people's mental health is not important. So that's why I started that's why I started the same place out. Because I felt like we needed a safe place to talk about mental health and not feel judged about it, because a lot of times we do feel judged and feel like somebody tried to call us um weak or tell us that we we're not even going through mental illness because there's a big thing in the in the black church where they just tell you to pray, or they even will tell you that you might have a demon inside of you. So it's just a lot of weird to like us not really talking about it, not being aware that it's racism. Like that that's another reason why I have the same face out. I'm sort of aware that the reason why we don't talk about it is because of racism. Like, I get that all the time because I'm really I've been really active over the years on uh social media talking about the advanced of it, as you know, and I get a lot of people um in the community telling me like thank you for saying this information because I never even knew. And um, some people will tell me that you know they were scared to go and see somebody, but the information I gave them made them feel more okay to seek help or to talk. To somebody about it, and I feel like that's what it's all about, especially when somebody tells me that something that they found in the app helps to save their life. Like that's always the biggest compliment to me. Because as we were talking about earlier, black people are really left out of the suicide division conversation. So I really want to help save lives in my community, but also just to educate and to let them know that yeah, we might not talk about it, but it's but it's because of a reason, there's a big reason we don't talk about it. And the more we're educated about it, the more that we feel comfortable talking about these things.

Gabe Nathan:

And so again, I'm so glad that you and the app exist, and I know it's helping people, and I know it's desperately needed. And you said several times in your answer talk the phrase talk about it, right? And you know, we're obviously huge proponents of that here at Recovery Diaries. We want people to be talking about it all the time, reading about it, writing about it, watching the films, listening to conversations like this. But in the black community, it's like talk about it, but to whom? I was looking for a therapist. My wife and I are looking for therapists right now, and you go to these websites, and it's just a bunch of white faces. They're all white. Um, I mean, not all, but like the lion's share of, especially when you get into the higher degrees, right? And so now we're we're gonna get into some of the systemic racism. Well, the the CIDs, um, you know, people like that with the with the higher degrees or the higher level of education uh certifications, they're all white. Um, so then we're talking about access to education. We're we're talking about um the the cost of an education like that and how out of reach that is um for a lot of black people and why is it that way? Um are schools recruiting in in black neighborhoods or in black uh you know HBCUs uh to get more black counselors out there. Um black people need black clinicians, they need to be with people who look like them to feel safe, to feel like, okay, this person will get it. They'll uh they'll have a at least a better shot at understanding some of the issues that are inherent with just my existence. Um, I feel like that's one of the reasons that black people don't quote talk about it. Because to to whom? Um so can you just talk about that a little bit and about like how we get to be in a better place um where we're having a more balanced array of clinicians for the population in this country, which is not all white.

Jasmin Pierre:

I read something like there might be like 4% of psychologists in the United States that are black. Like it's like so white. It just is like there's not a lot of people that look like me in the in the mental health field. And I mean, it's it goes back to systemic racism because we haven't felt like it's something important that black people need to talk about and take seriously. Of course they're not, they're we're not gonna want to go to school to to learn about it because why? We haven't been taught about it really. So I feel like um really we just need a lot of more awareness. I think we need a lot of it more starting in like race, like a lot of the school systems, gosh, they're struggling a lot with like trying to find counselors, especially counselors that look like them. Like that, like there's not I remember when I was in middle school, um that was the first time a counselor ever did try to bring up something to me, but she didn't look anything like me. So it was it was kind of going in one ear out the other. Like, I just like what I didn't listen to her, and I wish I would have had somebody that looked like me and was able to like just be culturally aware and talk. I mean, it's it's a difference. Like, people don't think cultural awareness is important, but it really is. So I just feel like not only do we need to keep advocating about it, we need to keep making people more aware of how serious that black people are left out of this conversation because the racial disparities and mental health is really, really bad. That's honestly one of the reasons I still do what I do. I'm like this work is hard. Um, a lot of times um mental people underpaid, like this is really important, and we really truly do need more people that look like us that are able to talk about these things with the black community and about the school part. I'm still kind of stuck on that one. I'm hoping eventually, like when we have more I guess resources and awareness about that maybe it'll make the next generations of um young black kids maybe want to go into therapy or psychology. Like, that's actually one of my goals eventually, is to go into school and talk to the kids because this is when my journey started, my mental health journey. Like, I I wasn't really aware that I was going through these things as a child. But now that I am, I want to teach these other I want to teach these other kids that you might be going through this, but it's nothing to be embarrassed about. And I feel like if we have less embarrassment and less stigma around mental health in the black community, it will make more people want to go and be doctors, psychologists, therapists, and I just think it will have like a better, more well-grounded view.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and and I agree a hundred percent. And I I hope like I see so many ways this country is going backwards instead of forwards, and it's terrifying. Um, but I'm hopeful that there will be a pendulum shift in the next few years or after the next few years, and we can finally start moving forward again um and and make some kind of progress instead of going back to some mythical uh imaginary time when we were great, when this country was like it never was, um particularly for black people. Like, are you kidding me? We were great when. Um, so I it's it's oh my god, it's just too much, Jasmin. I can't, I can't even um, but I I I want to ask you a question about again, like talk about it. So we talked about talk about it to whom, but then there's also and the whole notion of systemic racism around that. But I want to talk about, I want you to talk about the black family and the role that's played at home when it comes to things like abuse, uh, when it comes to mental illness. Um, I feel like there's something going on there that kind of keeps things from coming out. Um, and I'd love you to explore that.

Jasmin Pierre:

Yeah, we actually have a saying what happens in this house stays in this house. Like that's a really big thing in the black community. So I'm actually glad that she brought that up. That's actually a really big thing, a reason why that we just don't want to talk about things because we're taught that the family structure in the black community is so important that you're just supposed to put up with anything, basically. And I mean, it's it's sad, but I feel like one of the reasons why um that happened in a lot of black families is because during slavery, a lot of our families were torn apart. Like it was just a huge thing. So of course, there's going to be problems in the future. Like people think that it was sold long ago that this stuff did happen, and and it really wasn't. So, of course, like these next generations that come, like there's still gonna be issues. So that's one of the reasons that we feel like we can't go outside of the family and talk about things. Like, nobody really wants you to go and see a therapist and and spill the family drama, which is weird because so my family does not even want to talk to me anymore because I decided to break the cycle, and I was like, I'm not gonna keep this shit in the house anymore because y'all are traumatizing me. So um, I honestly I can talk about my own upbringing with this. So my brother and my subsister, as I wrote in the article, good times too. Um, abuse can be very complicated, which is um, I think that's one of the reasons why I didn't say something for so long. It wasn't until my dad passed away, and I um that was like seven or eight months um before the pandemic started. So I'm I lost my dad. The pandemic starts, everything shuts down, and like I'm left with all my thoughts. I'm in my 30s, my young, my early 30s. I'm I'm about to be 37 now, but at that time it was like I'm 31. And um I didn't realize how much trauma I still had from growing up because um my brother and sister, after my dad passed away, they still wanted to be around me, talk to me and stuff. And I'm just like, because dad's not here, I don't really want to be around y'all anymore. But I had to start realizing to myself, why do I feel this way? And so when I finally went to a therapist and I started talking about everything that that happened to me, um she told me I've been through a lot. Like um, I I I used to not consider what happened to me as sexual abuse, because that's another thing. A lot of us aren't taught a lot about sexual abuse. I used to think that it just had to be somebody um giving you intercourse, not just inappropriate touching, inappropriate kissing, um, inappropriate things being said to you. Like those are things that I dealt with growing up. And I would just try to put it in the back of my head like nothing was going on with me. But umce I started telling my therapist, she's like, Well, what you're going through is is serious. Like I already knew about my depression, but around that time is when I found out I had PTSD. And um a little bit later is when I found out I had pre-menstrual dysphoric disorder. So um just knowing that everything that they did to me growing up caused that much to me. Um, I told myself that I couldn't be around them anymore. And I couldn't be silent anymore because at this point I had been talking about mental health for so long, but nobody ever knew about the sexual abuse. And I was like, um, I was scared to talk about it at first because of the whole what happens in this house stays in this house. But um I just couldn't keep it inside anymore. I feel like that was actually one of the things that was making me sicker is because I had kept this in for so long. And as I got more comfortable talking about it with people, um, I learned that I wasn't alone. Like a lot of a lot of people in my community, a lot, I mean, not even just black people. I've gotten so many responses from people of all races just telling me, like, thank you for talking about this. Like this happened in my own family. Like, um, incest is hard to talk about. That's that's something that a lot of people are um ashamed of because um I know I was, I really didn't want anybody to know. And then I still loved my brother and sister, so I was like, they're gonna be ashamed, but I'm like, I I can't keep um I can't keep putting in secrets for y'all, and it's killing me inside. So when I started talking about it, of course, I I got a lot of backlash from some people in my family. And um, but at that point, I didn't give a fuck anymore, Gabe. I just have to be really honest with you. Yeah, because um I started to feel so free once I finally started talking about it and was just open to other people because I found that keeping everything in the house is really detrimental to your own well-being. And it's something that I tell a lot of people in my community now. Like, I mean, that I tell people you don't have to go on social media and say something. I'm a mental health advocate. That's why I do it. Right. But you can go to therapy, you can talk to a support group, you could talk to somebody about it, you don't have to be silent about it.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and and I think what happens in this house stays in this house is is a threat, actually. Like it's it's it's what it really means is fuck with this at your peril. And um, you know, you will you will suffer if you spill the tea, right? If you if you talk shit about us. And that's what it's viewed as. It's it's viewed as talking shit, talking family shit. Um and it's designed, like you said, to keep this unit together. Um, but sometimes the unit is so fucked up and so sick and so harmful speaking and and risking breaking that up, um, that's hardly the worst thing in the world, right? Um sometimes that's what needs to happen. Um and like you said, it's it's holding all of that in, it's keeping you sicker, um, and it's allowing that that secrecy to to win. You know, it's saying, ha ha, you know, we're we're in charge here. Jasmin's not in charge. We get to police her feelings and her thoughts and her behavior and keep her quiet, keep her under wraps. So this whole machinery can kind of keep going. Um and it it really is something that that has to be broken. Um and you're you're just living in fear of what's gonna happen if I break this, what's gonna happen if I break this? Well, you know now, now you know. Um, and you're still here. And um I think that that's part of the reason why you're still here is because you broke the thing. Um, you you spoke up and out. You did what you needed to do um to move forward with this, not move past it. So I don't think anybody's able to move past this, but to move with it, right? It's always going to be a part of you. Um just like slavery, it's always going to be a part of the black existence and the black experience. Um but you're you're able to move with it um and do really extraordinary things. Um and also just uh stay alive, um, which sometimes that's that's the only thing you can muster, and that's okay too. Um I something else I wanted to talk to you about is um crisis intervention for black people. I think um, you know, so often law enforcement is involved in crisis intervention, and um that can be really, really dangerous for anybody, uh, but I think particularly for black people, um, because I think law enforcement officers are conditioned to see black people as a threat, um, no matter what the situation is. And, you know, we know that so many people in America die every year at the hands of law enforcement um in a variety of circumstances, but particularly when it's a call that comes in for help for a black person who's in crisis, um, and the help that comes uh ends up taking their life. Um, you know, I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about mental health emergency response, and about, you know, I think there's a lot of law enforcement agencies that kind of or and mental health organizations that partner with them that pat themselves on the back. Oh, we have X number of CIT trained officers, and isn't that great? Okay, that's fine. But I think, and when we're teaching them de-escalation and all of this, but I think what people don't understand is that the arrival of a law enforcement officer anywhere is an escalation just by itself, just by the police car and what that represents, the officer coming out with all the shit on their belt, the taser, the gun, the bullets, the baton, the pepper spray, all of that stuff, the badge, the authority, the authority to take away your freedom, the authority to take away your life. The appearance of that person and what they represent is an escalation. So you're you're teaching de-escalation to somebody whose very presence is an escalation. And I think we've just totally got it fucked up in regard to mental health emergency response in this country. And I want to hear your thoughts on that.

Jasmin Pierre:

I want to start with the fact that even before mental health is involved, black people have a distrust of the police in general. And we have a right to have a distrust of the police because they have a history of being very brutal to us. So I just feel like it's a contradiction within itself. Like you're sending a police officer to a black person's house, they're already gonna be on edge, like they're already in a mental health crisis. Do you really think the presence of a police officer is really gonna de-escalate the situation?

Gabe Nathan:

And it's never just a police, it's it's good, it's multiple, right? So there's then there's escalation there too.

Jasmin Pierre:

That is so true. So to be honest with you, I feel like crisis intervention in this country is fucked up. I'm just gonna be completely honest with you. I feel like that we have a long way to go before we even have something great because I feel like the services that are out there right now are just terrible. Um, a lot of the hotlines, um, if you call them, you could still have a police officer show up to your door. So it's like, I feel like it's just they they treat it like it's jail, basically. I'm like, crisis intervention is surrounded around the police force. If you go into the mental institution, that feels like jail too. Like I've talked to so many people about like how there's one time I went into an institution, there was bars on my window. Like, like I was in jail or something. I've heard people say there was for furniture that was like just like jail furniture. Like people don't realize how similar the mental health facilities at jail actually are.

Gabe Nathan:

I worked at a locked-in patient facility for five years, and there wasn't a day that went by that a patient didn't say to me, A, this is just like jail, or this is worse than jail. Uh, this place is worse. We had bolt-down furniture, bolt-down tables and and chairs, just like in jail. Um, we even had a contract with the county correctional facility. So we literally had people from jail. If they attempted suicide, they were sent to us. They would be in their orange jumpsuit. Um, so of course, and then you had them on the unit uh and people who were there because they had attempted suicide or they were they were unable to care for themselves, mixing with people who were actually from jail, um, people with active charges. Um I mean, even just the wording that's used, um, it's an involuntary commitment warrant. It's a warrant. And a warrant is being served on you if you're being involuntarily committed. So it's a totally carcerial approach to mental health care. Um our facility was exactly like jail. Um, of course, it's it's a locked facility. We take your phone, we take your shoelaces, we take your hoodie strings, we take your your wallet, we take uh everything from you. Um and, you know, whether you you stay or go, it's up to the whim of a mental health review officer. Um you have a police officer testifying against you, or an ER physician, you know, who are they gonna side with? Um so it's the the whole approach is really wrong and it is really messed up. And I I I I'm as you've been talking, we've been having this conversation. I was thinking of this book. It was written by a guy named Ron Powers, who had two sons, and they both had schizophrenia, and one took his own life and the other didn't. Um, but the title of the book is No One Cares About Crazy People. And I feel like that's why we have such shitty options for inpatient, for mobile crisis, crisis intervention. Um, it's why the police are involved all the time. It's no one cares. Um, no one really cares. And the only way you're gonna get really good treatment is if you have a lot of money and you have a lot of resources. Um, and you can afford, like, oh, I'll I'll go to this, you know, palatial place in Southern California or whatever, and it's basically a a resort. Um everybody else is getting the dump, uh, really. And that's what we used to call our place. Um and you know, like you said earlier, we have a long, long way to go. Long way to go. But yeah, you're part of that journey and you're part of that change. Um, and I hope when you're in dark times that you're able to realize that and see that and and really believe that.

Jasmin Pierre:

Thank you. I honestly right now I really needed to hear that because this year has just been this year has been a lot for me. So sometimes I I do forget that I'm a part of that change because fighting for this stuff is hard sometimes, especially since you know, I talk about black mental health, especially in a time where the government doesn't really want black people to talk about what we go through.

Speaker 2:

Anything.

Jasmin Pierre:

And they don't want to hear they don't want to hear from you about anything. Exactly. So it's it's been it's been rough, but um I feel like now more than ever, I I do need to speak up about these things because going back to the crisis intervention, I kind of want to talk about Kyron Lacey, the LSU football player who um died by suicide um because of police, um the false accusations, and and there's they're they're still trying to pin um these accusations on him and he can't even speak for himself anymore. But um I read a lot of articles after he died by suicide because I always want to see how they're talking about black people. And it really angered me because, for one, the this this young man was in crisis. And after everything he went through, because they they slandered him online. There was so much racist content. The journalists they kept posting his mugshot. You know, the police are trying to frame him. He had every right to feel like he didn't want to be here anymore. And all they really talked about was a police chase, that he had a gun, that he had these pending charges against him. They were still trying to criminalize him, even by him dying by suicide. And that was in itself like really angered me because that happens to black people all the time. We're not seen as humans who actually need support and help. They keep treating him like a criminal. And it's just, I know that there are a lot of black men like Kyron Lacey, but it's just not reported. This is something that we're seeing national it's getting national attention right now, but this is happening a lot. It's just not being talked about. So that's another reason why I feel like crisis intervention in this country, it's just I feel like it's just trash right now. I I feel like they just don't, they don't care about what race you are in general. Because I I've heard horror stories from people who have mental health disorders no matter what race they are. But when it comes to black people, it's just so much more, it's scary. And it for us, it's much more, it can become deadly. And I'm just I'm tired of the way that these crisis intervention services treat black people. I'm tired of the way that cops treat black people when they're in crisis, and I just it just really makes me so angry.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah, and it how else could it make you feel? And I think it goes, there's so many reasons why, and there's so many things that need to be corrected, but I think one of the things, and I don't know how like uh Pollyanna, pie in the sky, like dumb this is to say, I'm just gonna say it anyway. What I said to you at the very beginning, like it's great to see you and really like see you as uh Jasmin, as a human being, as a complex, interesting, valuable, uh uh uh human being who's nuanced and who stuff has happened to, but is working through it and living through it and is imperfect and is showing up authentically as herself. When you see someone as a race or as a criminal or as a thug or as uh as or a crazy crazy person, right? Um, you are not seeing at all. You are not seeing a human being, and you are not seeing as a human being. Um, you're seeing as a bigot, you're seeing as someone who operates on assumption and who operates out of the worst um the worst part of the human brain. Um and I feel like if mental health practitioners, if law enforcement, if correctional officers, if uh first responders, and if we as people just saw each other as human beings who are struggling and are trying, and who fuck up sometimes, and who make bad choices sometimes, and who bad things have happened to, and who are trying. Um I feel like we could do a lot better. Um, but we're just not we're not seeing each other. Um and there's there's too much there's too much getting in the way of that. Um, and I just think it doesn't need to be that way. It really does need to be that way. Um and I know I know I'm oversimplifying it, and I know there's power dynamics and structures, and uh there's so, so much on top of it. Um but I think that's just it's just one element that's missing that we really, really need.

Jasmin Pierre:

I agree with you. That's so true. And honestly, just sitting here and like being able to look at you, uh, because I haven't been able to actually we we talk sometimes on photos. Yeah, but actually being able to look at you like it it does help because I've I would think. About it since this morning. I'm like, I'm so excited to talk to Gabe. We haven't actually got to see each other in a long time. So it just reminds me like how important human connection is.

Gabe Nathan:

Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Um, and I'm so so grateful for it. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to be here with us today. Thank you, Jasmin.

Jasmin Pierre:

Thank you.

Gabe Nathan:

Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. What a gift is Jasmin Pierre. She's a mental health advocate, a peer support specialist, and the creator of the Safe Place. Check it out and download it. It is a culturally aware mental health app that teaches how racism impacts the mental health of the black community. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiaries.org. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos, and content about mental health, empowerment, and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay, or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.

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Gabriel Nathan

Host
Contributor

Gabriel Nathan

Host
Contributor

Jasmin Pierre

Guest