Living & Thriving with Illogical and Irrational Anxiety: Nicci Attfield | RDID; 204

We are so lucky here at Recovery Diaries to have an international community of special, sparkly people coming to us to share their mental health recovery stories. Today's guest on the show is Nicci Attfield, who lives with anxiety and add. Nicci was born in the UK, and is currently living in South Africa. She has published two personal essays with us, (as has her husband, Jacques!) and it was a true delight to sit down with her and talk about her life as a writer, a neurodivergent person, and someone who is living her best life with mental health challenges. 

Nicci opens up about something that any of us who lives with mental illness can identify with; masking. Walking around all day, doing life, engaging in social situations trying to compensate, trying to pass, trying to get through every excruciating moment pretending, pushing through, struggling. It's exhausting. And, for quite some time, Nicci didn't even know what she was masking. 

Nicci tried apps, she tried denial, but it ended up being therapy that helped her find her voice; and she hasn't stopped using it. She opens up about what it is like to find her truth and live a life with self-compassion. She also talks openly about being a spouse of someone who has a trauma history and about her unique approach to helping her husband when he is struggling with an often debilitating, abusive internal monologue. Her strategies might just help you navigate hard times with someone you love! 

Nicci reads her beautiful and poignant essay, "Anxiety: Irrational, Illogical, Catastrophic and, Eventually; Manageable" and she reflects on who she was and where she was in her life when she wrote it, how her newer diagnosis of ADD has informed and changed her approach to her mental health and herself, and what lies ahead for her. Listen to this warm and engaging conversation between two thoughtful human beings, and share it with someone special in your life.

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

https://recoverydiaries.org/

Transcript

Welcome And Mission Of The Show

Gabe Nathan 0:00

Hello. This is Recovery Diaries in Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. We are so excited to have as our guest for today Nicci Atfield coming to us from South Africa. Nicci's written two essays for Recovery Diaries, one of them she'll read on the show today. She's a freelance writer and the author of a book about the Gilmore girls. Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor, folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are on their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed, and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiaries.org. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment, and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay, or film. And you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes, and grow. And of course, make sure to like, share, and subscribe.

Meet Nikki Atfield From South Africa

Gabe Nathan 1:28

Nicci Atfield, welcome to Recovery Diaries in Depth. It is such a joy to be sitting here with you.

Nicci Atfield 1:35

Thanks, Gabe. Thank you for inviting me.

Gabe Nathan 1:38

Um It's a pleasure. And you're talking to us from South Africa. Is that right? That's right. Um, so this is one of the this is one of the things that I get really excited about. Um being the editor of a mental health publication. So, you know, we do the podcast, obviously it's what people are listening to, and we do documentary films. And, you know, we don't have money to send our film crew all over the world to talk to people. Um, so our films are mostly based on in the Philadelphia area, which is where we reside. But through the magic of the internet, we have essay writers from all over the world um talking about their lived experience with mental health challenges. And I'm pretty sure that you're the only person um from South Africa, um, uh with the exception of your husband. So that's two. Um we can get to that

Stigma, Culture, And Compassion In Mental Health

Gabe Nathan 2:38

later. Um, but can you just tell me in kind of a broad way, what is the the cultural experience of mental health, mental illness in South Africa? Because I I really don't know. Are there particular stigmas attached um to certain diagnoses? What is getting help like, um insurance, all of that kind of stuff? I have so many questions.

Nicci Atfield 3:06

Um I don't know either. I'm I'm originally from the UK. Um and then my family is very conservative, you know, very British, very um, if one does not get upset or um stiff upper lip. Yeah. Um just don't worry about it, it'll go away. Um, I don't know, just more of a matter kind of thing. Um and then in South Africa I I spent a lot of time with my family. Um and then I went to university and I studied psychology, so obviously people were quite open. Um and then I had a a nice mentor uh who's amazing as people who who was a counseling mentor, homage, who who must be one of the kindest people. So my idea is that South Africa is very much kinder. You know, there's a lot of work around community healthcare, around um counseling. I was a voluntary counselor. Um people uh there's trauma and South African gender-based violence, but then the community that I got to know are very activist, very concerned. So I would say um it's compassionate. Um, but that's been my experience. Obviously, it's my subjective experience. Um and then as well, I think people understand certain things more than others. Um so if you have anxiety, I think people are quite understandable. Understand people get a bit worried. Um but say people are a bit bipolar or a bit schizophrenic or something, or you know, something goes wrong. Um when I was at UCT, somebody was shouting about being invisible. I don't want to be invisible anymore. And whether she was metaphorical or she really didn't want, she felt she was invisible, I don't know, but that there was a lot more judgment. Um you know, if the students talk to each other and said, I'm really not feeling very well, people said, uh, yeah, that's terrible. Um but if you say, um, you know, I'm worried, that's horrible, we're all worried. But if you are feeling invisible, well, what is she saying? And why did she say that? And why was she having a shout? And you know, is it a feminist thing where women just feel invisible? But there was a a formal clinical kind of discussion around it than the the automatic empathy. Um so I think it depends what's wrong as

Masking, Invisibility, And Internalized Stigma

Nicci Atfield 5:31

well.

Gabe Nathan 5:32

That it's so interesting that the idea of being invisible, and I I hear many people in the mental health advocacy space me talk about the invisible illness. And that, you know, people who live with mental health challenges, um you usually don't know. And there's a couple of reasons why. Like A, a lot of it's going on in our heads, but also we're really, really good at masking. At masking. We're really, really good at pretending like everything's fine. Um and we don't we may want to talk about it, but we don't want to reveal it, and we don't want to burden other people with what's going on with us. And you know, you have to keep going and you have to pretend and you have to go through all these social situations and oh my god, and and suffer through all of them and then come home and and collapse. And I'm just wondering if that resonates with you, that experience.

Nicci Atfield 6:33

Well, yeah. I mean, I I ended up finding out after the essay that I was neurodivergence. Um, and I realized how much I masked and how draining it was, and how that was, I mean, I'd always felt like as great peg in a round hole, I said that in the essay. Um and then like there's people who'll say, you know, you were always unusual. And I think, well, how how is unusual? I was trying so hard not to be, you know, for goodness sake. Um and um and I know like I've got my special interests and I can get on them or whatever. Um, but I I do think like for for so many people with struggles, it is the masking, it is that hiding away, it is trying to present as normal. And then you go read horrible things like say Val McDermott and how psychopaths are trying to present as normal or the mask of sanity, and you think, oh my god, that's me. There's something really wrong with me. Um I just this horrible person, and I always knew it. Especially if you're anxious, you know. Um and and I think I love Gable Mate and how there's this house. Dr. House, I'm writing about house at the moment. You said there's a circle, there's the circle people, and we draw a circle around this bunch of sort of people who fit in. And everybody else we want to break or or change to get them to adjust. And I love that because I think it's yeah, that's how we feel, as people who've you know, we got uh difficulty and we get stigmatized because of it. We just we just pretend and we try everything to fit in with these norms that are actually uh in a way kind of pain in the arse.

Gabe Nathan 8:18

And so much of the stigma is also internal. Like there's of course we're facing stigma from outside, and and people are looking at us as different, but we're also doing it to ourselves and and kind of punishing ourselves for being different. And, you know, God, you you freak, why can't you just be normal, right? Why can't you just be like everybody else? Um, and so it's it's this punishment and and ostracism from outside and within, um top of the mental health challenges that we're already dealing with. So it's just it it can feel, I think, just too much. Um and I'm wondering how you cope with that.

Nicci Atfield 9:04

I'm I've got two things. I've I've got the part of me that doesn't really relate. Um, so I don't really care. Like that there's one part of me that's kind of protected, and that I'm not very interested in say status or my family is. I uh uh they talk about it a lot. This one's got a big house, this one's doing well. And I don't I don't really think what are they on about? You know, so in that sense I'm quite protected. Um, this person might think that if you wear that, and you think, oh, that person probably isn't thinking about me. Um they're probably thinking about something in their own life. So that I don't care about. So in that way I'm very protected, but in a sense of why am I unusual? I mean, that was always my thing. Why am I unusual? What what am I doing wrong? Why can't I get it right? Um, I must try harder, I must be more understanding of people, I must tiptoe around people more. Um and I do silly things like most people who do something, uh I don't know, I get myself in this situation so I I can't necessarily understand, and then I get them wrong. Um I don't um like somebody, for example, I uh this is why I used to tiptoe around people. I don't I don't really understand. So um like somebody say, if they say, Well, I'm going to go, if you don't stop that, I'm going to go. It's like, well, then go if you want to. Then actually they don't want to go. And other cross and think that they've been tossed out. It's like, well, you said you wanted to go. I meant to understand you don't want to. Then say, I don't want

Partnership Dynamics And Breaking Negative Spirals

Nicci Atfield 10:35

to go. I want you to be quiet. Or um uh the window is open and people say they are um uh that I don't know, it's getting cooler. It's like, oh yes, it is, and the weather's changing, it's getting cooler. I don't know, they mean that, that I must close the window. Um and I and then they get cross and think I'm not helping or being sensitive to them. So I had this belief that I wasn't a very kind, sensitive person, and I must try much harder. Um and and there I was very hard on myself, and I tried to look and I tried to read and I tried to understand, like, well, how do you actually be more supportive or how do you how how do you become this nice person? Because clearly I'm not a nice person. Um let me and that's why I said I needed to look outside of myself. Um and now I I I I've realized we can ask people what do you mean? What do you want? Um but that's that was where I think my internal stigma came from, was just feeling like I could just never get it right.

Gabe Nathan 11:41

Also that belief, which of course is a cognitive distortion of I'm not a nice person, yeah, is is something that can really erode and corrode you over time and um get in the way of everything, including personal relationships. And I wonder if, you know, I I know because he's contributed uh work to our site also that your husband you know lives with his own challenges. And I I just wonder how that dynamic plays with the two of you.

Nicci Atfield 12:17

With Jacques, I'm really lucky um because he understands. Um he's had trauma, so he under he understands in a different way what it feels like to be on the outside. Um where it's hard is that he can be very self-critical. Um so he, for example, um a few years back, he went and decided to book a surprise to have my hair done. And I didn't really like it because the way I was wearing the wrong colours and it didn't look very nice at the time. And he said, I'm such a stupid person. I did this, and it's like, well, you didn't do it, you didn't cut my hair and not really listen. Um and then and then he says, Yes, but I am, I'm a stupid person. Uh there it can be hard because it's like, well, no, no, I'm not, you know, and then there it's hard. There it's very painful to watch. Um and I feel bad. Then I feel like, well, I can't really say anything, but then I've got doesn't need to say what I think. Um, and break that sort of social contract of tiptoeing around. Um and and and trying to guess what people want and what they think and everything. Um so there it could have been it could it it could be a bit hard.

Gabe Nathan 13:39

I I wonder so I I think that I share a lot of similarities with both you and your husband in terms of my own mental health and things that I say to myself or messages that I tell myself, um why can't you just be normal really resonates with me? Um I'm a terrible person really resonates with me. I'm a stupid person really resonates with me. I fuck everything up, which you didn't say, but I'll say. Um, you know, that that really resonates with me. And I think that having mental health challenges where you are constantly bombarding yourself with negative messages about who you are, obviously it has a very negative effect on you. But when you're in a romantic partnership, it's really hard on the other person because A, like you said, it's really hard to watch someone you love kind of abuse themselves. But it's also really hard to be the one to constantly have to reassure or help challenge that narrative. I think that that can be a very heavy thing for the partner. Um I wonder if you feel that way.

Nicci Atfield 15:06

I can't. Um this is the thing. Um I think this is where we get on quite well. Um I tend to tell him what I think. I'll get crossed and say, well, you didn't do it, so uh what are you on about? Um and I think that's why we get on because it kind of brings him back to reality. Um I can't really do the it's okay. Um I I don't know how. Even when I was counseling, I didn't know how. I can meet people where they're at. But I can't do performing or placitude very well. Um so I get frustrated with him. And I say, that's not what I was saying. You didn't cut my hair. Why is it your problem? And he says, Because I chose the lady. It's like, well, how are you meant to know? You're not a psychic person. Um and then he sort of goes, Oh, no, I'm not. Um he laughs at me because I think I don't form the social script very well. Um so like we were in a park and he said he oh, he was a stupid person and he couldn't write. I was asking why I didn't write an ebook for his business on how to do a permaculture garden. And he said, I'm just a stupid person, I can't write. And it's like so I said to him, Well, I'm not actually going to listen to you until you say something nice about yourself. Just be quiet. Um I won't listen to you. And he laughed. He thought it was very funny. But it got him until I mean it is. Is it?

Gabe Nathan 16:37

But it and it's it's I mean, A, we have evidence on our site that he can write for sure. Um and and but I think sometimes, yeah. I think sometimes we need that splash of water on the face um to get us out of it because it's such an incessant feedback loop. Um, and it just comes up over and over and over again. And I think your your strategy of just

Storytelling, Hesitations, And Medication Fears

Gabe Nathan 17:03

not engaging in it and not indulging in it. Um, I mean, it obviously works. It's obviously effective for your relationship.

Nicci Atfield 17:13

Yeah, it does work. It it stops that I call it a spiral. Um it stops the spiral because it can get worse and worse. If there's somebody, it it feels like a ball, you know. It comes. Um I've seen as his sister, he's a much kinder, nicer person than me. Um so um I'm a stupid person, I did this, no, you didn't, and that went well. Well, I didn't think that. And it's like a ball, and he pushes it back to her all the time.

Speaker 2 17:42

Yeah.

Nicci Atfield 17:43

And and uh she tries very hard, and then she gets, I think, quite helpless. Um like, but I'm trying to help you, and I'm trying no, no, but I don't see that. But I think you're great, but I don't see that I'm great. I think I'm this terrible person. But I'm likely to say, oh gosh, you know, what on earth are you talking about? I don't think really, for goodness sake. Um it doesn't go on as long. I'm I'm not as nice a person as she is. She's a she's a fantastic, very empathic, very kind person.

Gabe Nathan 18:14

Um I think I would I would just say that the the strategies are different.

Nicci Atfield 18:20

Yeah, uh they're very different.

Gabe Nathan 18:25

Um can you talk about what the what works for you? We've talked about kind of what helps Jacques, what what helps you um get through your challenging times?

Nicci Atfield 18:36

He understands me. Um he's always understood me. He's I think he understands being an outsider in the first place because of the trauma, and I think the trauma made him feel like he was on the outside. Um and also because he's uh to tiptoe around other people so much. Um he's quite relieved he doesn't have to tiptoe around me. I don't get offended very easily. Um I'd say my truth and he tells his. Um so he tells his truth, and then we're comfortable with each other. I don't feel like I have to uh say things in a nice way, and if I don't understand him, he will explain. Um and he doesn't, I think because his mother was so mean, he don't really doesn't get offended by me. So if I come along and I say something I don't know, tackless that would be the word, or not I didn't say the right thing, he doesn't really care. He just loves me. Um and that's been really, really helpful for me. You know, he knows that if he says something, I'm going to take him literally. Um so if I say it, I mean he knows I'm not gonna be polite and I'm not going to be reassure him. So if he wants that, he's really got to go find someone else. Um and that's once he does, he's not ready. Um then he'll go speak to his sister and say, like his mum was sick, you know, maybe she's gonna get better. And his sister will say, Yes, she might. I'm going to say she might not. Um and he might not want to hear that. Um but when he's ready, he will talk to me and say, um, yes, it's you know, or he can say, I don't like this, or um, this is what I feel, but we don't have to dance around each other because doing that social dance, it it's impossible. I don't know, I don't know how to do it. Um and and he just doesn't expect that. So that for me is an absolute relief.

Gabe Nathan 20:32

You you use the phrase um telling your truth, and he tells his truth, and I tell my truth.

Speaker 2 20:40

Yes.

Gabe Nathan 20:40

So a number of years ago you came to Recovery Diaries with your truth, um, your truth at the time, um, which was a really lovely essay, which you're gonna read on the site in in uh maybe a couple minutes. Um but I'm so curious, I don't really know the story of how you found us and came to us, and what like what your experience with mental health storytelling was before coming to us, and what it was like to to come to us with this vulnerable thing in your hands to give us. So can you talk a little bit about that if you remember?

Nicci Atfield 21:21

Uh well, it was. I found you by reading someone else's story. I there was a girl who was talking about alcoholism. Uh I can't remember her name, but her she was a teenager and she had two stories. Um and uh she was talking about I think it was her dad who was an alcoholic, it was a while back. Um and and then she had a follow-up story as well of her having gone to therapy and uh assessing her sort of I think her fears around it. And I loved it. I loved the sort of openness and the sort of story of that. And there was also uh the English writer Giles Corinne who'd written about psychoanalysis and

Therapy Plus Meds: Unlocking Change

Nicci Atfield 22:07

the king's speech. I love Giles Corin. Um and um how psychoanalysis helped him. Um and and uh that was quite a lovely story as well. It was in the squire and and those two stories. I kind of felt that it was very different from things you read on on sites and blogs where people tell you what to think and they tell you what to do. Um and how it came from a space, I come from a space of reading. A lot of people saying, when you're anxious, you should have an app, which I didn't try. Um and the app really didn't help, it didn't touch the sides. Um or when you're anxious, you should do this. Um and and having somebody just say, Well, I was anxious, or I was upset, or I felt like uh tearing up my hair and hitting walls. Um, and then I got better. Um, I kind of felt like that was more true and it was more helpful to other people. And I wanted to do that too. Um so I wrote and said, Well, how about it would you be interested? Um I want to tell my story. Um, and I want to say specifically that I tried all the mind of a matter stuff and it really didn't work, and I had to go on tablets, and and that was my difference.

Gabe Nathan 23:28

Oh, I have so many things I want to ask you. But when you you said I had to go on tablets, were you were you anxious about being on medication? Did you were you reluctant? Because I from my own experience, um, I was first suggested that I should be going on medication when I was in college. And I went to the psychiatrist and I had one meeting, and I said no, and I pushed back against it. And I didn't go on medication until I was 31, 32. Um, I mean, I I resisted it for a long time. Um and I really needed it. Um and I my main reason for not wanting to go on medications is really dumb. It was that I was a creative person and I was afraid that um if I was medicated that I wouldn't be creative anymore. Um, that if if I felt right in my brain that, oh, I bought into this trope that real good writing comes from fucked up people. And if I'm no longer fucked up, well, I can't, you know, I'm not gonna be as interesting um on the page anymore, which is so crazy. I can't even begin. But a lot of people buy into that. Um so I'm just curious, what were your thoughts about psychiatric medication and and maybe fears surrounding it?

Nicci Atfield 24:52

I was actually scared of going to therapy for that reason. I was scared that if I went to therapy and I lost my quirkiness, that I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to write because one day I wanted to write. Um so that was the first block. Well, if I go to therapy and I become this ordinary I don't know how what I thought people went to therapy and became this ordinary dot. Um I I wouldn't uh I there would be a problem. And then I with medicine it was actually that I came so much from that school of thoughts of um, you know, therapy is it therapy is the answer. I studied psychology that I believed I'd failed. That if I, you know, the analysis doesn't work, and if you can't start changing your own helpful thoughts, and if you can't make it that I'd failed. I'd failed at therapy. Therapist didn't think that. Um psychiatrist didn't think that, but I thought that.

Gabe Nathan 25:50

Yeah. And really if we really think about it and how it was explained to me was you're learning all this stuff in therapy, it's the medication that helps unlock the parts of your brain that are able to then implement what you're learning. So for instance, not to compare us to dogs, but I have a German shepherd who is super, super, super, super anxious,

Gratitude, Community, And Sharing Stories

Gabe Nathan 26:18

right? And like she's great in the house and super chill, but when we take her outside, it's and she's like I mean, you can hold the loveliest treat in front of her face. She will not even see it. You call her name, she's she's not there anymore. And the trainer, we're finally training her after like seven years. She's seven years old. Again, like me, sometimes help comes late. But she's seven years old. We're finally training her. Um, the trainer is you know, lives with trauma and PTSD herself. She's super good with anxious dogs and anxious owners. And she really explained that like when Sadie goes outside, she's all brainstem. She's all in her reptilian brain, and she's just overstimulated and just the training is not penetrating her. She is now on Puppy Prozac, right? To get her to the point where she can go outside and and do that little brainstem shit, but then chill so she can get into her working brain and actually learn. So it's therapy and meds working in concert with each other, right? And for you and me, we may be such anxious people that simply going to therapy, and okay, we can learn stuff and intellectually we can understand things, but to then process it and implement it and and put it into our daily lives, put it into practice. Sometimes you need medication to be able to slow everything down to be able to do that.

Speaker 2 27:59

Yeah.

Nikki Reads Her Anxiety Essay

Gabe Nathan 28:00

So yeah, therapy failed. Fuck that. It's not about therapy failing. It's about these two therapeutic modalities that sometimes, you know, need each other to click.

Nicci Atfield 28:11

Also, I had this idea. I mean, like you read it on on site tonight, you know, the sort of idea of this person there went to a Peruvian ceremony and then they got better. And I thought that, yeah, that's much nicer. It's much nicer to go and have an insight and and uh see things very differently. Um he really wants to go on something, and maybe in six weeks it'll work, and maybe, you know, he doesn't, and maybe you get worse. Um and the psychiatrist was really nice and said, well, if you want to do that, you can. Just speak to me um before that, because you definitely mustn't do that. So it's all right. But in general, this is is good for quality of life. And she also said, you know, that a Magdala, when it gets overexcited and overwrought, it just won't learn anything.

Gabe Nathan 29:04

Yeah, absolutely. Um and I also want to say, you know, we're getting back to coming to us with your essay that I'm so glad that you did. Um I was talking to someone at a at a health advocacy conference about how she was talking about how she's going through something, and she didn't talk about what it was, but she said, I'm I'm I'm at the doorway, feeling like I'm ready to walk through it and be public about what I'm going through. And I she said this during a presentation, and I waited until her presentation was over, and I I pulled her aside and I said, Um, it's really great that you're contemplating that and everything, but just know that you don't have to walk through that door if you don't want to, if it's not gonna serve you. Um, not everybody. Has to tell their story. Not everybody has to be forward-facing. Um, there are plenty of people who come to our site to watch the films and read the essays. They never comment, they never post anything themselves. They're just there to get help and hope and read or watch something or listen to something that they can identify with and gain strength from. And like that's great too. Um, but I am so grateful for all of the people who decide I want to step forward and tell my story. Um and you know, that I get to sit down and talk with you after working on your essay a long time ago. Um it's just really gratifying. Um and I'm I'm glad that you're a part of our community of storytellers. Just wanted to let you know that.

Nicci Atfield 30:56

I'm just grateful you've helped. I mean, this was my first publication, this was my first proper sharing, and being able to have it kind of so respectful and so honored. It was amazing. I mean, then I carried on writing, which which helped a lot.

Gabe Nathan 31:15

Well, it's a it's a a big way to jump into the pool um with an essay like this. So I would love it if you would share it with our listeners um in your own voice. Okay. It is an essay called Anxiety irrational, illogical, catastrophic, and eventually manageable. Take it away.

Nicci Atfield 31:38

I love that title. I lived my life like a square peg in a round hole. I gave up an early promising relationship I desperately wanted because I was too scared to express how I felt. I tried hard to fit in with city life, even though I always wanted to move someplace quieter. I didn't share what I needed and constantly tried to meet the needs of others. I thought I wanted to make the world a better place, that I wanted to be a good person, but I didn't start with my own needs. I couldn't because I didn't know what those needs were. When I was young, I read the story of the little Buddha. In the story, Little Buddha spent a great deal of time looking for his keys outside of his home. He couldn't find them, and after a while his friends came to help him. After neither had any luck, his friend asked where he might have last seen the keys. Oh, they're inside, little Buddha replied. Well then why are we looking for them outside? His friends asked. Oh well it's easier that way, answered Buddha. It's scary inside, and I don't really want to go there. While I laughed at this story, I too had a tendency to look for answers outside of myself. It was this tendency that led to a constant free floating anxiety and later on panic attacks. I'd always had a tendency towards episodic bounce of anxiety, but one day I noticed that it had become a con it had become constant, like an irritable, nagging and wearying companion. At first I tried to push it aside, but it wasn't going anywhere. Sometimes I could spoil my day, well not sometimes. It generally spoiled my day. There was no relief. Once the problem was resolved, I could and did always imagine another one. I'd left the pot on the stove. I could see the food simmering, drying out, and starting to burn. The dog would be harmed by the smoke. He was running around the house looking for an escape from the toxic acrid air. He wouldn't find one. His throat would burn. The kitchen would burn, the house would burn, the neighborhood would burn. We have to go home now, I'd shout. I left the stove on. And the other person would be very frustrated. No, you didn't. You turned it off. I've said that thirty times yesterday as well. I don't remember. I don't want the dog to get hurt. You turned it off. I saw you. Okay. What a relief. But what if a burglar comes in and the dog gets out and runs into the road? He could get hurt. I knew I was being a irrational and illogical. I knew I was being catast making catastrophes, and I couldn't help it. The incessant fears and doubts were too overwhelming to ignore. I didn't want to go to therapy. My dad had been to therapy on and off, and it hadn't helped. He struggled with what I now believe were bars of depression. When I was younger, I didn't understand the stigma attached to therapy. I think this prevented him from sticking with it long enough to truly heal. When a doctor recommended I go, I was terrified. I thought he was saying I had deep problems that might never get better, but he wasn't saying that. He was saying that my anxiety was intense. He was worried I would become depressed if I left it any longer. He quite sweetly said, when life feels like there's a lot to worry about, it starts to feel shit. And when it feels shit, you get depressed. Once I finally went, therapy helped me find my voice. I'd always been very quiet and didn't talk a lot about what I needed. I'd usually search for my answers in books. I often felt at war with myself. By going to therapy, I learned to talk. And once I started speaking, I didn't stop. My problems, however, didn't magically disappear. Initially, because I was always looking for my keys while they were inside. I thought the therapist would tell me how to solve my problems and all would be well. Instead, oh gosh, he was so frustrating, he said, but what do you want? What do you need? It's like, oh gosh, well, I don't know. Um and that initially was very frustrating. I was scared that if I were to acknowledge how unhappy I felt, I would need to make frightening changes. I fought all of my own desires and longings. I wanted to under feel understood the way I had with Jacques, the friend I'd secretly loved. I also wanted to move out of the city. I wanted to find a

Revisiting The Essay Through Neurodivergence

Nicci Atfield 35:45

creative way of working. Not knowing how to ask for what I wanted made me feel powerless. I felt as though I would never achieve my goals because I just couldn't put myself out into the world. I knew therapy would help and that it was possibly the only thing that could help. And so I kept going. And then in 2016, my dad died. And then I started to have panic attacks. And when I first came, I didn't know what they were. I thought something was physically very wrong. Um I started to feel dread dreadful. I mean beyond dreadful. I started to feel like I was having a heart attack. And I asked one of my friends who was a psychologist whether she felt that way. Um and she didn't. I wanted to believe my friend feelings of dread were normal and that they go away on their own. And she said she didn't feel that way at all. And I started to worry about what was happening to me. I dreaded the attacks. I started to feel dizzy, I couldn't catch my breath, and one night I had a chest pain and I started to think I was having a heart attack. And I later I learned that these texts uh were about fear, and they weren't about a fear of death, but of not living the life I wanted to live. But it took therapy to get there. I still wasn't ready to admit that I needed to make changes. I downloaded a couple of apps on my iPad. I had a self-meditation app which would take me into a relaxing setting. I had an app which helped me breathe slowly and deeply, and I had one which helped with brainwaves. And all of them, they took off the intensity, but they didn't really resolve the problem. I tried supplements and even nutritional changes. Uh there was a sort of neuropathic lady that wrote a book about if you eat this and you eat that and you have some uh fermented foods and that didn't work. And um so my therapist said, I think you need a psychiatrist. And it was with the psychiatrist's help that I was able to overcome my fear of change. She put me, she began with beta blockers and SSRIs, and I was scared. Um, I was scared of SSRIs because I thought that they could be difficult to withdraw from. Um I was worried that there'd be a placebo, I got all this stuff that I got in red. Um I was also worried about side effects. I was worried that if I um I was failing, that if I couldn't go to therapy, that if I couldn't treat it with therapy, that if I couldn't eat my way out of it, that I that I was a failure. Um and my psychiatrist explained that, well, yes, you know, when you've had SSRIs and you go off them, you might not feel better, but that meant that they hadn't been on them long enough and I wasn't making any patterns and forming new patterns. And she was really kind and she was very in control and she understood all the objections. She didn't agree with any of them, but she understood, and she was very kind and she was very accepting. And she said that was just about quality of life, and that actually panic can kill you because if you get a fright and you run into the road and get run over by a car, it's really not a very good thing. Um, because I did do that. Um and I did want to feel better and I did want to stop from running in the road if there was a car and then nearly get run over by a truck on the other side of the road. Um, so the medication made a massive difference. It reduced my anxiety and fear so that I could start speaking about what was actually really wrong. And I started to talk about how I wanted a different life, how I was overwhelmed, um, how I didn't really want to be at university. I I wanted to do my own writing. Um, and that I I was feeling quite stifled. Um and I could achieve the goals, um, but I didn't think I could do it as the way it set up my life at the time. And I I had a lovely therapist. I mean, he was such a down-to-earth man. I always say he was like a tree. He just he just listened and he understood and he gave space. And he just he said, mmm, mmm, he was so kind. And he didn't need me to be any different, uh, which which my family had needed. They'd they'd wanted me to fit in with their version of life. And um so he helped me shape a new life, and and then I gradually came off medication. And that change was hard. But what my therapist, his name is Gary, and what he did was he helped me to trust myself enough to guide my own life. Um, and he'd say, Well, what do you want to do? And and why is that a problem? And you know, but if you want that, how would you do that? Um, as opposed to no, no, no, you can't do that. And um he just didn't need me to be any different. And also he didn't fight. I mean, like I tried to argue with him, well, you know, because you don't know, and he just said, Oh, okay, all right, but you do, and that's what we're talking about.

Labels, Insight, And Practical Supports

Nicci Atfield 40:38

And it was really very good. Um and so I started to explore how I felt, and I realized that by communicating and sharing what I needed, I was able to have honest conversations. And so then it wasn't about what do other people need, what do they need from me, how can I do it, how can I be this better person, and how can I be tolerant if I think people are just bossing me around, or how can I manage this injustice that's driving me mad? But like the I actually don't like it, and and I don't want to see that, and I don't want to work with that, and how can I put myself into a kind of space? And also uh Jacques. I I really wanted Jacques. Um and so eventually I reached out to him, and when I reconnected with Jacques, I was able to share my love for him, I was able to speak and to assume that he was going to be okay with listening to me. Even if he didn't like it, then he would listen, and and he was thrilled actually. Um and because I'd accepted my feelings, there was no need to keep anything from him and no reason to remain hidden. And I could understand the importance of honesty in a relationship and the value of communication. So Jacques didn't need to guess what was going on. I didn't just keep quiet. And that meant we were able to build a fulfilling relationship, and I've been able to have the relationship I've always wanted. And I was also able to improve the relationship with my first child, Danny, and and that was by telling her, this is how I feel, this is what is me, this is who I am as a person, as opposed to she trying to guess. Um, and Jock and I also have a little one called Ava. And um so therapy showed me the gaps which existed in my life in a way I'd never seen before. And that anxiety was about trying to speak to me, and and like my therapist says, my souls they don't speak good English, so they give you symptoms. And uh it's a way of telling me something's wrong. Um and therapy taught me to trust, okay, well, something is wrong, and this is what I think it is. Um and I learned to set up a life that was right for me. And so I I no longer felt feel like a square peg in a round hole. And I trusted my therapist, and I thought, well, you know, he does know this. So if he's saying it's fine, it probably is fine. And that helped me to trust myself. And it was a willingness to use my own insights to guide me through some like some quite dark and scary places, like to say, well, I suddenly have to change my life. It's it's quite scary. But that brought the happiness that I have today. Um, and I was scared that by embarking on a therapeutic journey, I'd be admitting that I couldn't control my life and that it was falling apart. And also, I was scared that it would mean that like whatever quirky things I had wouldn't make me special, but in right that there at the time. Um and instead, therapy brought me the gift of of myself. I knew myself and I knew what I wanted. Um I knew that I could have boundaries. I knew that if people were going to be rude, I didn't actually have to put up with it. So I could uh he said to me, like basically, I don't have to look after the feelings of people who don't care about mine. And so I learned to trust, okay. Well, I don't like that, so I didn't have to tiptoe around. And, you know, I I kind of feel like that helped me to share myself with my family. And, you know, I for me therapy was the greatest gift, and I couldn't have asked for more. And at the time I didn't believe I was cured from my anxiety when I wrote this essay. I know I still have anxious moments, and I know I have to speak through them and identify what's wrong, and

Life Changes, Writing Projects, And House MD

Nicci Atfield 44:22

also to check like, is this me, what's going on? I used to do that a lot. Um, and at the time I thought anxiety helped me to birth a new self because the symptoms sent me into therapy, and that took me on a journey through darkness, and the journey was terrifying, and I was unprepared for its peaks and valleys, and I was also very unprepared for the anxiety of therapy. Um, but it also brought me home and home to myself.

Gabe Nathan 44:52

Thank you so much for sharing that with us and for reading it, for revisiting it. Um, what was that like for you going back to something that maybe you haven't looked at or or you know been around for a while?

Nicci Atfield 45:07

Um it's different now. Um so I look back and I kind of feel compassionate for the person who wrote it. Um at the time that I wrote it, I didn't know about neurodivergence. And um and and that a lot of what I was anxious about was also being a war. Um, but I didn't want to live in the city because it was noisy. Um I also um I worried about to leaving the stove on because I did leave the stove on and things did burn. And um, and that, you know, like learning to manage if you have some ADD and you get distracted and and and that you struggle with sensory problems and uh neurodivergence as well, underlying that. And and why he was fantastic. I mean, he was fantastic, and I think he did know. Um, and he didn't label, he was more like a psychoanalytical therapist. He was very kind. He didn't label, he told me I was anxious because I asked him if I was anxious. Someone else said, but you're so anxious. So I said, Well, am I anxious? He said, Well, yes, but he'd never really spoken about it before. Um and he helped me, like, if you want to process things longer, you can take your time and just tell people I'm thinking about it. I'll get back to you later. Um, he helped me if you get overwhelmed, you can do things at a different time. So he was fantastic without labeling, without ever feeling judged. Um But I don't feel that way anymore because I learned I went, I spoke to also a different person, and that person gave different uh techniques. And she helped me understand sort of body and mind and how they interrelate and how as a neurodiverse person, how to manage overwhelm, how to and then I got less anxious.

Gabe Nathan 46:58

So I I love the idea of looking back at something that you wrote a while

Carl The Collector Recommendation

Gabe Nathan 47:05

ago and having compassion for that person. And we we talk about having self-compassion a lot, right, in the mental health space and giving yourself grace and understanding and room. But it's it's a little bit of a different thing to kind of look back and have compassion for who you were five years ago. Um and it's a wonderful thing to be able to have you empathize with her and um for who she was back then and also for what she didn't know uh about neurodivergence. And can you talk a little bit about I mean, I know you talk about it in your in your most recent essay on the site, but a just a little bit about what that process was like, learning about that and and kind of integrating that knowledge and understanding into your life and recovery.

Nicci Atfield 47:53

Oh, I was I was today with someone in my family went my uh you want to say who without that person's permission. But I asked for help for that person, and someone said, Well, it's kind of obvious considering you. Um it was me. Me, I you know. Wow. Um and she said yes, and then she helped me understand, okay, well, there's this and there's that, and do you relate to this and that and and all of a sudden, actually in that regard, my life made sense. I could look back and say, oh, well, this, yes. Um and I read a book. I I read a book about neurodivergence and Asperger's woman and and uh gods. And I could look at myself and say, Wow, this was me. Um, this was me as a child, this is why I feel like a square peg and around whole. Not just because the therapist helped me feel comfortable with myself and self-accepting, but because I was. Um, because I processed differently. Um, oh, this is why I connect these weird things and I pull them together, or um, and it helps me. It helps me in my work. Um, this is why I um I haven't ever uh this is the first time I'm speaking for the Asperger

Closing Thanks And Ways To Engage

Nicci Atfield 49:12

to anybody putting the first essay either. But um this is why I have this memory. I can remember things, weird things that people have said. Um and and uh it tick I saw you in a shop once, um, and you weren't talking to me, but you were in the background and you were talking about how you worked at this music studio, you know, and and people get frightened. So then I stopped telling them because maybe they don't want to hear. Um but there's all of this kind of a a different way of looking at the world and a different way of processing it. Um and and that just by understanding that that that I don't have to perform socially, I can explain to people, well, well, I just I can't. I can't. Um or if I do if I don't give up on something and I ask somebody something, and then they say okay, they don't quite get it, and they feel a bit bad or something. I can I know that I can say, okay, but I have Asperger's, I have to tell you the next step, and then I can close it off. But I can't just leave it. Um and I know I can explain myself to people in a way that gives kind of a framework. And I'd always been very anti-labels, I'd always been very anti, uh, I liked the that the first therapist was great for me, he was wonderful. Um, and he didn't ever look at labels, he just accepted a main space for me as I was. But having the power of almost the cognitive understanding of this is what's going on, this is what was always going on, it also really helped a lot as well.

Gabe Nathan 50:47

And that's you know, you were talking about reading that piece and and kind of seeing yourself in it and going, oh God, you know, this is me, this is my story.

Speaker 2 50:56

Yeah.

Gabe Nathan 50:58

This is why we do the work that we do, right? To help other people understand themselves through someone else's lens. And you were talking about like okay, essays and other works that are out there, like, oh, this is what you should do if you have anxiety. And um, five tips for managing anxiety. There's so many essays like that. We just want people to tell their story. Yeah. Um, because that's sometimes going to be what unlocks something for someone else. And I actually forget that sometimes. Um that there are people out there who are undiagnosed or who are wondering what the hell is going on with me and why am I like this and what am I experiencing and what is this like? And sometimes by just sitting around and Googling and stumbling upon a piece of writing um that's literally just someone sharing about their experience can really help move the needle for someone else. Um it's really lovely that you're you've benefited from that through other works, and now other people are benefiting in that way from yours. Um and I just love that like that thread just keeps going on. It's really it's kind of magical, really.

Nicci Atfield 52:10

This is what I think. I mean, I remember with the piece that I read in the Esquire, the writer, he said, I just I felt like banging my hands into the wall. Um and when I know that I might not bang my hands into the wall. I um but like the fee I tend to run away and sit in a dark room. But the feeling of just being so overwhelmed that you feel like you can pull your hair out. Um and it it's nice when people say that because you just don't feel like being overwhelmed, feeling like you just can't cope, that you've come to the end of your tether, that you really will pull your hair out. It's just you know, they talk about othering. Like you're just so different, it's just so incomprehensible. And especially if you come from an English family where one doesn't, you know, one sits down very quietly and in a very demure manner. And and and and you know, you don't even say, Oh, that's a bunch of shit. You say, Oh my god yeah, uh, you know, I was rather um and and then when you come from a place of I'm so overwhelmed, I feel like I gotta pull my hair out, and everyone's kind of, what's wrong with you? It's it's so nice that other people do. And I never I feel like less alone when I read things that are just human actually.

Gabe Nathan 53:31

And that's the thing, uh like you can post something on Instagram, like a meme that says you are not alone, and that's fine. But actually showing people that they are not alone is very different. Um, and I think that that's what we do here, and that's what you do through your your writing. Um you're showing people that they are not alone by opening yourself up and sharing your experience. Um and I'm just so grateful for that. And I'm curious about what you've got going on now and and kind of what's next for you.

Nicci Atfield 54:12

Um I did two things. Um the f I I said I we moved to the country. Um, we got rid of the overstimulation. Um we well the little one can make a lot of noise. How else we can make a lot of noise. Um but we other than that, um we moved to a quiet country town. So that's part of the essay changed. And then I moved out of sort of trying to work around academia and work around facilitation and and a lot of very strong emotions around uh climate change and climate anxiety, and started to look at um cultural criticism, which uh that came for me as what I wanted to do when I was speaking in therapy. That I want to look at Andrew Solomon said, you know, we look at people and we try and make people feel more comfortable in the world, um, but also that we try and make a kinder world. And and that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to make a kinder world. So I looked at, I started looking at TV shows. Um, and at the moment it's two of them. It's The Magic of Gilmore Girls, which is my forthcoming book. It should be out next year. And then The Legend of House MD, because House, I believe, is is neurodivergent. Um he's very close, he sort of plays with his ball all day. Um and and how his brilliance kind of gets taken advantage of um by the hospital that will call him a narcissist or something wrong with you, uh, which is how I always used to feel. Um and and that belief that house he's just a troubled genius, um, as opposed to actually maybe the world could adjust a little bit for him and not make him the sin eater of everybody else's problems. Um and then the Gilmore Girls, it's about women and food and eating and women's bodies and um expectation and intergenerational sort of fights and trauma and feminism and the corporate wife and how she's kind of got to dismiss herself and uh her her needs for her husband, but then boss everyone else around to fit in, which you know I think my family can do that sometimes.

Gabe Nathan 56:34

I I just wanted to say I'm so glad that you ended talking about television because I have a television show that I'm so excited to recommend to you, especially because you have a young child. It is called Carl the Collector. Are you familiar with it?

Nicci Atfield 56:49

No, no, I'm not.

Gabe Nathan 56:50

So Carl the Collector is um uh a public television program, PBS program, um, and it's animated, and it is about a raccoon who has autism, and he is the main character. The show is named for him, and he has collections of everything um glasses, string. Um uh his favorite thing is a universal screwdriver, and he will talk about it to anyone and everyone. And the show is it is so charming and warm, and the child performers are neurodivergent, um with the voice actors, and um it's it's a really sparkly, lovely thing that's out there, and you can watch it online. Um, every episode is online, it's uh pbskids.org. And um, I I just think you'll love it. I I love it. Again, it's called Carl the Collector. So I hope you check it out.

Nicci Atfield 57:54

Oh, that's right. Thank you. Thanks so much for that.

Gabe Nathan 57:58

And thank you, Nicci, so much for being here with me today, for being part of our community of storytellers, and for making a kinder world.

Nicci Atfield 58:07

Thank you. Thanks, Kate.

Gabe Nathan 58:12

Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. Thank you so, so much to our guest for today, Nicci Atfield, a South African freelance writer and the author of a forthcoming book about the Gilmore girls. You can also read both of Nicci's essays on our site, the one she read today and her more recent one, How Three Small Letters A D D changed my life. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiaries.org. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos, and content about mental health, empowerment, and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay, or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.