Bipolar, Books, Breakdown; in conversation with Erika Nichols-Frazer | RDID; 208

Erika Nichols-Frazer joins us today as our guest. She's an old friend of Recovery Diaries, having published three essays with us; Lies Mania Has Told Me, A Double-Edged Sword: Facing the Grief of Miscarriage with Bipolar Disorder, and the essay we're privileged to have her read aloud during this episode, Manic MFA: How My Degree Almost Cost Me My Sanity.

While Erika is now a profilic writer, "Manic MFA" was, in fact, the very first time Erika had every written publicly about her bipolar diagnosis, a fact we at Recovery Diaries are very proud of. Erika speaks openly and candidly about her decision to write about the pressures and triggers she was experiencing during her MFA program, and the impact her mental illness and its symptoms of mania had on her relationship with her husband. 

Our interview with Erika is expansive and hopeful; covering how women with mental illness are treated in literature, and #irl, how her relationship with food has evolved over the years, where she has been in the early days of her bipolar diagnosis, and where she is now. Erika is thoughtful, insightful, and easy to talk and listen to; we think you'll find our conversation with her illuminating and impactful. She has a lot to say about mental health storytelling, and advice for anyone considering putting pen to paper with a mental health narrative of their own. We're so grateful to Erika for taking some time to talk with us on "Recovery Diaries in Depth."

Like our conversations? If you find them helpful and hopeful, chances are someone you love will, too. So share us with someone who needs us, and leave a review to help more listeners find stories that help.

About our guest:

Erika Nichols-Frazer (she/her) is the author of the memoir, Feed Me: A Story of Food, Love and Mental Illness and the poetry collection, Staring Too Closely. She has two books forthcoming in 2026, the poetry chapbook, Can you see her, the moon? and the short story collection, No One Will Ever Hear You. Erika's work has been published in numerous literary magazines and venues such as HuffPost Personal, River Teeth's Beautiful Things, Emerge Literary Journal, and others. She has an MFA in Fiction from the Bennington Writing Seminars. She lives in Vermont and works at Vermont State University.

Conversations like the ones on this podcast can sometimes be hard, but they’re always necessary. If you or someone you know is struggling, please consider visiting wannatalkaboutit.com. If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please call, text, or chat 988.

https://recoverydiaries.org/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Gabe Nathan 0:00

Hello, this is Recovery Diaries in Depth. I'm your host, Gabe Nathan. Thanks so much for joining us. We're very happy to have you here. We are so excited to have as our guest on the show for today Erika Nichols-Frazer. She is a three-time Recovery Diaries author. Her memoir, Feed Me, was published by Casper Press in 2022, and she has not one, but two books coming out in 2026, No One Will Ever Hear You, and Can You Hear Her? The Moon. Each week, we'll bring you a Recovery Diaries contributor, folks who have shared their mental health journey with us through essay or video format. We want to see where they are on their mental health journey since initially being published on our website. Our goal is to continue supporting our diverse community by having conversations here on our podcast to follow up and see what has shifted, what has changed, and what new things have emerged. We're so happy to have you along for this journey. We want to remind you to follow our show for new and back episodes at recoverydiaries.org. There, like the podcast, you'll find stories of mental health, empowerment, and change. You can also sign up for our mailing list there so you never miss a new podcast episode, essay, or film. And you can find this podcast pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. We appreciate your comments and feedback about our show. It helps us improve, make changes, and grow. And of course, make sure to like, share, and subscribe. Erika Nichols-Frazer, thank you so much for joining me on Recovery Diaries in Depth. I'm delighted to see you.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 1:48

Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Gabe Nathan 1:52

It's such a pleasure. And you know, you're unique. Um, I mean, in lots of ways, but in one particular way that yeah, every now and then we'll get a writer and they have a lovely experience with us and they want to come back. Um, but you have three essays on our on our site. Um, and I was looking back at the pieces that you wrote and just uh remembering them so warmly. And I you have such an immense talent, and I'm just so grateful to you for sharing that with us thrice.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 2:21

Um I'm grateful to for you for giving me the platform and the space to share my story.

Why Telling Mental Health Stories Matters

Gabe Nathan 2:28

Uh absolutely. And uh we will we would do it again and again. Um, so consider that an invitation, by the way, to come back. Um and uh so okay. You you thanked me for giving you a platform to share your story. This seems like a dumb question, but I'm just gonna ask it anyway. Why is it important? Why is it important to you um to have uh a space to write about mental health?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 2:58

Yeah, uh two reasons really. Uh it's important for my own process um to sort of um well, to process things, right? Um to make sense of them and to kind of, you know, writing is how I do that, right? Is how I kind of parse things out and um and process my emotions. Uh so that aspect of sharing that with other folks um helps me. And I hope it also helps others. Um, you know, one of the things that I have so appreciated as being part of the recovery diaries community is hearing others' stories as well and feeling left alone and knowing other people are going through similar things. So it's benefited me in terms of, you know, sharing uh what I've been through and uh my recovery process. And I hope it's benefited others as well in seeing that recovery is possible and that maybe feeling a little less alone in their experiences.

Gabe Nathan 3:46

Well, I know that you have helped other people. Um, I know that for a fact. And I think it's incredibly moving when someone makes a decision to step forward to create something to help themselves and also to help others. And, you know, I'm curious about that that aspect for you. How long have you been doing that in terms of writing about your mental health in a public way?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 4:18

Yes. Well, this was the first essay before the one I'm going to read in this episode, um, Manic MFA, how my degree almost cost me my sanity that Recovery Diaries Published was the first time I publicly spoken, uh or publicly written, I should say, about um my mental health. The first time I publicly spoke about it, I stood in front of a podium in January of 2019. Um, so about seven years ago now, um, for my MFA program, my Masters of Fine Arts um program, I was giving a lecture on uh representations of mentally ill women in contemporary fiction. Uh that was what I had chosen to write my thesis about. And um I felt that I couldn't stand up there and talk about this and not say that this is the lens that I'm looking through and that I'm seeing myself in these characters and that I have spent time in a teenage psychiatric ward and that I am looking at this, you know, from a personal perspective. Um and that was the first time I'd ever said anything like that aloud. Um I had been diagnosed with bipolar one disorder about almost exactly a year before that. Um that was the first time I actually spoke about it, and then I started writing about it. Um I graduated in January 2019 and no longer had writing assignments, right? Um, but I'd always turned to writing to kind of make sense of things and express myself. So I started writing, and this was the first essay that was um published about my mental health, and then I went on to publish a book about it.

First Public Disclosures And Diagnosis

Gabe Nathan 5:40

Um I have a lot of things going on in my head as I'm listening to you share your answer to that question. And I I I want to say one thing. Um A, I didn't know that um the Manic F MFA, I say, was your first published piece about mental illness, and it means a lot to me to know that. And um I just recently interviewed um Rebecca Shama, who is a schizophrenia advocate living in California, and you know, same for her. Uh it was 2015 and it was her very first time writing about mental illness, and it was on our site, and that uh that means something to me.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 6:28

Um that's what's very for a lot of folks that have published with recovery diaries.

Gabe Nathan 6:33

I guess I just uh I don't know, I feel like sometimes I know it or sometimes I knew it and if and forget. Um but I guess I mean, and this is coming from someone who lives with mental illness as well. Uh you really do feel sometimes like you're in the middle of the ocean. And if there's something out there to to grab onto to feel safe, um to feel like there's some glimmer of hope, some shot of being heard or seen. Um it's it's very moving to know that that people are out there in the ocean and they're grabbing onto us. Um and I just I it seems so self-congratulatory, and I feel kind of like he saying it, but I know you know what I mean. Um, I do.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 7:23

Yeah, I think that's the importance of spaces like this. Um it certainly gave me me that experience. And I went on to in 2021, um, I pu I was the editor of an anthology of mental health recovery stories that actually called a tether to this world, kind of speaking towards the like life raft metaphor that you're talking about, right? The you know, sort of throwing something out, a tether, right? And it was really intended to be that. Um, places like recovery diaries have given me that space, and I wanted to give space to more of those stories.

Gabe Nathan 7:52

Um, well, uh thank you. And thank you for reaching out to us and for for thinking of us in that way. Um, I'm really glad we were there for you. And it's wonderful to know that it was a springboard to to so many other different things, um, you know, which we're we're going to touch on as we talk. Uh but I want to get back to your to your thesis. Um, who are some of the women you were writing about, some of the fictional characters?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 8:21

Sure. So of course I looked at the battle jar by Sylvia Plath, right? Which was sort of one of the preeminent, um, not the first, but I would say certainly was a groundbreaking uh novel in the early 60s, so in 1963, um, you know, to write about women uh within an institution, a mental health institution, a wombling with their mental health. Um and so um so I looked at that, and then I sort of compared that with um books that then came 30, 40 years down the line, um, you know, in in more contemporary last 20 years or so ums. So I looked at um Michael Chabin's um uh Moon Globe, which is um an auto auto fiction, um, right? So it's sort of loosely based on his grandparents' um and his grandmother's struggles with schizophrenia. Um and so um so I looked at that character. Um I also looked at The Vegetarian by Hong Kang, which is a Korean translation, English translation of a Korean novel. Um, and um that looks at a woman with an eating disorder and really um talks a lot about mental health in Korean society and the roles of women in Korean society and um the ways that she is viewed by family members and people around her, um, a woman who's really struggling. Um, and then I also looked at waste, which by the Canadian author Andrew F. Sullivan, um, in which the mother character um who struggles with schizophrenia as well as some other diagnoses um is really sort of a cartoon character, right? She's sort of seen as this um, you know, foible, this um struggle that the character needs to get over, right? This burden of having this mother. Um and um so it's kind of looking at these different ways that women were portrayed um with mental illness in fiction, and the ways that we see them as either real characters with full agency and their own desires and needs and wants and goals, um, or if we see them as just an obstacle in the way of the main character, right? Um just something they have to deal with.

Women In Fiction And Mental Illness

Gabe Nathan 10:16

That's it's so fascinating. And and I think about it in the context of working at a locked inpatient psychiatric hospital, where I where you really get a front row seat to how women are treated in that milieu. They we used to call it the therapeutic milieu. There was nothing therapeutic uh or milieu-y about it. Um but particularly the way the diagnosis um borderline personality disorder was thrown around and just slapped on a woman within 30 seconds of a treatment team meeting um by psychiatrists who you know are barely looking up from their paperwork. And it just how how mistreated and um just apathetically labeled um women were in that environment. And I it was just it was fascinating and heartbreaking um to me. And I I don't know if you have anything that you want to share uh about like your experiences in treatment as a woman um on an inpatient unit as a child, yeah, which I just can't even imagine.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 11:34

Yeah, I was 13 when I spent um a week in a teenage psychiatric ward. And and if a week doesn't sound like a lot, you probably haven't spent much time in a teenage psychiatric ward, um, because it certainly felt interminable to me um at the age of 13. Um, I was uh really struggling with anorexia and quite uh dangerously so at that time. And you know, my my parents, like many parents, didn't really know where to turn. And I'm not sure how you know we got referred to this particular place, but I was the only person I was the youngest person by several years, and I was the only person on that ward um struggling with an eating disorder. And um I felt very isolated. Um, I felt very sort of targeted. And um, as a young woman, you know, in the midst of puberty and kind of going through a lot of other changes and things and challenges, um, it was um not therapeutic for me for me. It didn't feel helpful, it felt very punitive, right? Um, and um, you know, they they literally nurses followed me around with a ticker, like counting my steps and making sure I eat every calorie. I felt just like very um surveilled, I guess. You know, I didn't I didn't feel independent. I didn't feel, you know, the um, you know, like a, as I said, you know, personal agency, right? I very much felt watched and sort of, you know, judged. And um, you know, I felt sort of talked down to and condescended to a lot. And to your point, like I felt like it was just kind of rubber stamping and like pushing you along, right? Um, and not really focusing on root causes or actually helping. At least that was my experience in that particular facility. I'm sure there are other, you know, experiences. But um yeah, I really felt sort of abandoned at this space. Um, and um yeah, it didn't really help.

Gabe Nathan 13:15

So what did help?

Teen Inpatient Experience And Aftermath

Erika Nichols-Frazer 13:18

Yeah, you know, it took a while. Um, I would say in terms of what continued to not help, is um the child psychologist that I was then um required to see we didn't have a good relationship. And sometimes it does find you take a while to find someone that you can really trust and talk to and work well with. It was not my experience at that age. Um, and again, I I just felt really sort of spoken down to and condescended, you know, as and this is sort of an independent 13-year-old. Like that wasn't what I was interested in at that time. So um, so I continued to struggle for a while. Um, I think what ultimately helped is having friends and family members who continued to reach out, even when I tried to push them away and say everything was fine, right? Those people who are still there. Um, you know, two of them are throwing my baby shower this weekend, you know, the people who um were on my when I was at the teenage psychiatric board, you could have two people on your phone call list. So I chose my two best friends. Um, they would call me every day. And I'm still very good friends with them. Um, so having, you know, people in my life that I couldn't push away, you know, even when I was trying to, right? Um, even when I was sort of ashamed or afraid to talk about what was really going on, um, those people who kept showing up, right? Um, I think that was a huge thing for me. Um in that same vein, my aunts, my um mother's sister and her wife, um, who have been in my life since I was, you know, forever, um, they lived in New York City and they basically gave me carte launch to come visit them whenever I wanted to. And whenever my parents and I were arguing over food or, you know, my behavior or whatever, um, I would go see them. And they um think foodies, my aunt's wife, um, was an executive chef. And so they kind of helped me rediscover a love for food um and helped me see it in a different way, and not as something that was like punishing my body, but something to actually enjoy. Um, and they just like gave me that space and that outlet. And so really it was people in my life who wouldn't let me push them away and who kept showing up for me.

Gabe Nathan 15:14

And uh so two follow-up questions. So uh you know, obviously there were people showing up for you. And my question is how did you learn to show up for yourself? Um, because that's a very different thing, and that's also something that's very, very important. And the other thing is not it's not even really a question, but it's a comment. So you you've gone from a 13-year-old who had a very complicated relationship with food to an adult who is now writing about food and really embracing it in in a beautiful and artistic and exciting way. And I would like to hear more about that journey. But I guess first, let's talk about showing up for you and and was that, you know, uh was that a process and what was that process like? Um, how do you do that? Because it's something that I struggle with too, showing up for me.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 16:04

No, absolutely. I I do think a support system is important, but I also think your own, you know, ability to accept yourself and to express yourself, which is a big part of it for me, um, having an outlet. So writing for me, um, creating art and and breeding and sharing stories um is always a really big part of my own self-care and sort of, you know, where I went as a kid into books and into writing and writing stories and poems. Um, so it allows me to to express myself, um, to make sense of my feelings as well as to connect to other stories and to also sort of escape sometimes, right? Especially as a young person, right? Reading was a was a big way for me to get outside of my head and my own experience, right? And and um kind of explore different worlds. And so that was a huge thing for me. Um athletics, being outside were also big parts of my sort of recovery, right? Um, even though, you know, when you're struggling with an eating disorder, you also may have a complicated relationship with exercise. Um, but um really team sports. Um, yeah, I played soccer and hockey growing up. Um, I'm still one of the assistant coaches in the um women's soccer team at the college where I work. Um, and so that's always, you know, sort of that team aspect was really important for me to again have that support system of other people that were, you know, playing together every day, were, you know, cheering, cheering each other on, supporting each other and that sort of thing. So that was also helpful for me and just connection with nature. Um, I live in Vermont in the rural place. So um just getting outside, exploring, um, that's always been a really big um comfort to me as well.

Gabe Nathan 17:38

That's wonderful. And I think it's easy to uh underestimate the importance of just uh getting out there and exploring your surroundings and enjoying simple, simple things like trees and grass and the sky and sun. Um it's it's so so nourishing.

Finding Support And Rebuilding With Community

Erika Nichols-Frazer 17:59

Um you have your yeah, I think just going outside and observing, yeah, what's around you, regardless of what your environment looks like, you know, I think that that can be a really big salve as well. Um, to getting out kind of outside of your own thoughts.

Gabe Nathan 18:13

Yeah. Um, absolutely. And if you can talk a little bit about your relationship with food and and how that changed and evolved. And I mean it's it's a big question because we're talking about you know, a couple decades. Um but I would love to hear a little bit about that.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 18:31

Yeah, I think I I struggled with my relationship with food and um body image, especially as a teenager. That was sort of in the the worst of it for me. Um, and I did over time um as a you know student athlete realize that I needed to fuel myself and take care of my body. And um that that was an important part of doing the things I like to do. Um, you know, and I I was a college athlete, um cross country runner, and um, you know, eating well and feeling yourself um, you know, is is essential to your performance. Um, so um from that perspective, I kind of had to change things. Um eventually, you know, wasn't working, um serving myself and restricting in that way. Um and it decided, you know, people in my life, like like particularly my aunts, um, one of whom I who was a chef who I worked for for years in the New Jersey Performing Arts Center when I was in college. Um, so I worked in food and got was surrounded by food and learned um, you know, how to cook good food and how to appreciate it. And um for me, it was also really about community. And that's something I really emphasized in my memoir, the um importance of food as um a driver of community, a way to come together and um celebrate food and enjoy food together as a group. Um, so when I was in college, I started having these weekly, we call them family dinners, and I would have a group of friends over and I'd make everyone dinner. Um, and then more people started coming, everybody kind of started pitching in, um, and it would turn into a bigger and bigger thing. And um, I really loved that. I really loved being able to share that with other people. And so that's something that I've kind of always done um since then. And um, so I feel like those experiences kind of changed my relationship with food. And now it's something I really love. I enjoy cooking. Um, my husband is a big gardener, so we grow a lot of our own food in the summers. Um, I've been a vegetarian since I was a kid, so I love you know experimenting with new with new recipes. Um, so it's something that's really important to me and it's always been kind of central in my community building.

Showing Up For Yourself Through Art And Sport

Gabe Nathan 20:29

That's wonderful. And and I I'm assuming you you're talking about like the IRL community and also online social media. Yeah. And so getting to that. Um social media is so fucked up, for lack of a better word. And I I mean like social media, especially these days, for sure. And uh it's a really uh tenuous and delicate thing, I think, because like uh I do a lot of mental health advocacy online, like in my own personal space, in my own um like advocational advocacy, and of course, recovery diaries is an online organization, and so we have to be on social media, and and I see there are a lot of people and organizations doing wonderful things, um, putting out wonderful messages, hopeful, helpful um content for lack of a hate the word content, but we can use it just for argument's sake. Um on social media that's uh doing a lot of good. And I see social media being vilified um really kind of wholesale with people not stopping to understand the nuance that okay, there are some bad things and the algorithm is is awful and it is addictive and and there are people posting horrible things and But there is a lot that's good. Now my question for you is particularly in the realm of food, I see a lot of food-related content that is lovely and warm and accessible and encouraging and not about calorie counting or BMI or all this other bullshit, you know, designed to make people crazy and feel like shit about food, but there's also a lot of other stuff. And so how do you A, how do you navigate that in a way that keeps you healthy and your relationship with food and your body healthy? And how do you how does what you post do you think about pushing back against some of the the negative and harmful stuff when you're deciding what to post?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 22:56

Totally. Yeah, totally. Um it's it's a careful line to walk. And I think that many of us right now in this particular you know climate are struggling with, you know, engaging versus stepping back and you know um what you're going to open up when you open up your you know your apps, you know, what you're gonna what you're gonna see, because it can be ugly for sure. But I couldn't agree more that there's also so much positive, and I've made so many good connections with people, um, you know, and am able to see a lot of good that's happening out there in the world um because of social media um and online connections. And you know, I have people that I refer to as my internet friends who I've never met, who I exchange books with and recipes with, and you know, these people that I've connected with um over food and writing and things like that. Um, and so I try to, um, in terms of my own content, like I try and guys it's kind of a gross word, but um, but um, you know, I do try to um emphasize more sort of the positives and try to put things out there that I think could be helpful to other people. Um, you know, sometimes I'll post something political, but I generally try to sort of stay away from it because I think I'm more focused on things that that can be helpful. And often those conversations are really polarizing and not a helpful platform to have them on. Um, and so um, you know, I made a recipe last night of a sweet potato tofu um peanut butter curry, and like posted pictures of that, and people are asking me for recipes, you know, and like um, you know, and I share a lot about the books I read. Um, you know, I read over 100 books a year. Um I read 122 last year. So I like to share that and share, you know, positive reviews and things like that. And those are things that people seem to connect with, and those are the kinds of people I want to connect to. Um, you know, people who value some of the same things. Um, in terms of food content, yeah, it can be um it can be tricky because there's so many images of you know people looking certain ways or eating certain ways, you know, and um, you know, like the weight loss videos and things, you know, that um I try to kind of avoid. Um I try to, you know, focus more on body positivity and um the enjoyment of food and people who are actually interested in in exploring food and understanding it. And um, that's something that I appreciate. I love getting people send me recipes, you know, people send me um pictures of uh different places that they're eating, that sort of thing. Like I love seeing that. Um so um trying my best to to curate and focus on the things that I'm interested in and share those with other people.

Gabe Nathan 25:17

Matt, I mean that sounds like a wonderful way to to stay engaged, but also stay sane and keep your you know, keep your wits about you and and stay healthy. Um I'm wondering you know, you were talking about the enjoyment of food, and I'm thinking about things that you enjoy, and obviously you're a voracious reader. Um and did you enjoy your time in graduate school?

Food, Joy, And Community

Erika Nichols-Frazer 25:47

Yes, overall I did. Um sort of a nuanced question because you know, as I've written about, um, you know, I struggled with my mental health during that time. Um, and for me, it was it was transformative in in a lot of ways as a writer, but also um as someone living with mental illness, it would sort of force me to confront it in a way that I hadn't before. Um, and um, you know, really put me in this this pressure cooker basically, where um, you know, I did a low residency MFA program. So um I had five, a total of five 10-day residencies on campus um over two years. And the first three of those, as I'll read about in the essay I'll read today, um, I left in a manic episode the last two weeks, right? And so those were very intensive periods of time, intellectually, emotionally. And so um while there was so much I did enjoy, and I enjoyed the connections I made, and I enjoyed, you know, the discussions and the workshops, um, there's a lot that was really hard, and I had to sort of confront that. Um, you know, it kind of gave me no choice. Right. Um, and so I had to really um look inward and do a lot of really hard work um during that time, not just the academic work, but you know, emotional and mental work as well. Um so yes, I enjoyed it. I had a lot of really great experiences. I met a lot of really great people. I'm still in contact with a lot of them. Um, you know, and um I have my book, a short story collection that comes out this year that was actually my um creative thesis at Bennington at um the MFA program, Bunnington Writing Seminars. Um so that's now going to be published um seven years later. Um, so you know, a lot of good came out of that experience. Um, but it was really, really hard.

Gabe Nathan 27:27

And you know, like social media, like we were talking about, okay, there's this thing that's you know, it can be really good for people, it can be really good for you, but there's a cost there. Um you know, pursuing the MFA, making really great connections, having wonderful discussions, getting great experience, and yet there's a cost, um as there, as there is to everything. You know, you're you're expecting a child right now, you're you're bringing a new life into world the world. It's it's wonderful, and there's all of this for lack of a better word, hyperbole around it. You know, this is the the most wonderful time in you know, particularly a woman's life in particular, and oh, you're glowing and all that stuff. And yet it's also incredibly scary and hard. And parenthood comes at a cost too. Um and I I mean, I don't know if there's anything that you want to say about that or or thoughts that are running through your mind as you're you're in that world.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 28:28

Yeah, I guess I'll just say that all the things that are really worth it and good are hard, right? Um, you know, and that I think that in order to, particularly, we're talking about mental illness, um, mental health, um, in order to grow and recover and live a full life, you need to face the things that are hard sometimes, right? Um, and that's sort of part of the process. I don't think you're going to heal if you don't do that to some extent, right? And look at some of the hard stuff and work through it, right? Um, that's kind of a part of my recovery journey anyway. I think that some parts of it are going to be hard. So um, so yeah, while, you know, I think I gained a lot from the experience of my MFA, and you know, I'm right now in the throes of you know 33 weeks pregnant. So um, you know, preparing for for to become a parent for the first time. Um, yeah, there's a lot that's scary, a lot that's hard, and it's something that I'm, you know, trying to process and work through because I think that that's part of, you know, part of the deal.

Navigating Social Media Without Harm

Gabe Nathan 29:23

It's it's such a wonderful attitude. Um, and I think I want to really just stop and recognize that because I know that I get to a point where I look at everything that has to be done and I say, Yeah, but mental illness makes it so much harder to do everything. Everything. And I get so angry and resentful um and jealous of Yeah, I totally got that. We don't have it, and it's like I it's it almost gets to the point where it's like I I don't want to do anything because I just know it's gonna be that much harder. Um and I'm I'm grateful to you for sharing a different perspective that it's so uh important to acknowledge that, but also just face it, face what's harder.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 30:24

Right. Right. That's how you get through the other side, right? Um, and that's how you show up, I think, also as like your authentic self, right? Because I think so many of us who live with mental illness have tried to hide that at various points or had to hide that at various points, right? And you don't feel like you're giving your authentic full self and that you can be yourself in that situation, right? Um, and so to an extent, you need to work through it and figure out how to do that um to show up for yourself to your point that you're making earlier showing up for yourself. Um, you know, I think that you do yourself a disservice by trying to hide those parts of you. Um and of course, you know, depending on the context, you can't always, you know, talk about some of the difficult things, um, you know, in every context. But um, I do think it's important to have to face and work through. Um, and that's how you sort of, you know, show up for yourself.

Gabe Nathan 31:16

Well, I'm gonna ask you to show up for yourself uh in this moment and for our listeners um by reading your very first essay with us and apparently your very first published piece about mental illness. Again, we're very lucky um to be the home for that piece. It's called Manic MFA, how my degree almost cost me my sanity, and uh I'll let you take it away.

The MFA Pressure Cooker

Cost And Growth In Hard Seasons

Erika Nichols-Frazer 31:40

Thank you. You don't stop talking to no one the entire three-hour drive home. You gesture wildly with one hand as you drive, pausing only to take sips of your fourth coffee of the day. You haven't slept a full night in over a week. You're shaking, mind and body abuzz. You're writing a book out loud. You want to call it your manifesto. You know how that sounds. Everything appears in a sharper focus, lights and colors bright and shining. It's never been this bad before. I'm on my way home from my third 10-day intensive residency for my MFA program at the Bennington Writing Seminars. There are too many triggers there, and I feel naked. The anxiety and depression I try to hide, my craziness, as so many people have called it, exposed to the world. I lack my usual comfort, my dogs, my own space, therapy, and alone time. I have left all three residencies I've attended manic. During the first residency, I was bursting with energy, excitable and itchy. I couldn't sleep or slow down. I hadn't realized how isolated I'd been. I had chosen to live in rural Vermont, chosen our home with a big yard, chosen the solitude and time to write, and yet I was lonely. We lived far from most of our friends, so it was mostly just my husband, Dylan, and me. I looked forward to my writing group each month, the energy I got from connecting over literature, something I did not do with my husband. At Bennington, I was overwhelmed by that energy all the time. It was thrilling to be around people who shared my love for words, plus masterclasses and workshops and readings. I didn't want to miss any of it. I barely slept in those ten days and lost my voice from talking so much. It was exhausting, soaking up every second of creativity and interaction. I came home both drained and energized, overwhelmed and fulfilled. During my second residency, Dylan and I were fighting, or at least not talking. I was at Bennington for two days before coming home for a wedding. I hadn't realized how far apart we had become until I was away for a few days. Back at Bennington, I was relieved of tension within my marriage that I hadn't realized I'd been carrying. When I walked into our house after two days away, and Dylan didn't even look up, I knew something was wrong. Dylan and I hadn't spoken or texted since I'd been gone. It hadn't occurred to either of us to check in. We felt separate. I'd been focused on school and issues with my mother, and he didn't seem interested in caring about either. He pulled away and I couldn't reach him. Things were rough between us at the wedding. On the drive home, I tried to bring up what was going on, but he snapped at me and I cried the whole hour and a half drive home. He didn't say anything. I tried talking to him before I left again, but he refused. I thought there was no way to get through to him, no way for us to move forward. I was convinced that our marriage was beyond repair, that it was as broken as I was. I spent the week at Bennington crying, having panic attacks, pacing all night, talking to myself, barely eating and drinking too much. I was dissociating and nothing felt real. I can remember almost nothing from those ten days. I skipped nearly everything, readings and lectures and master classes I wanted to go to, except the mandatory workshops. I had four panic attacks that week. Anything set me off. At a picnic, my friend mentioned something about her husband, which made me think of my husband, and the tears came suddenly. I ran into the woods where I sat on a log and tried to catch my breath, crying uncontrollably, hyperventilating, terrified of someone seeing my breakdown. At a restaurant one night, I suddenly felt trapped and had to get out immediately. All the people around me, the noise, everyone having a good time, while I felt far away. It was too much. My chest tightened, the room was spinning, and I nearly passed out. I ran out of the restaurant and my closest friend followed. She chased me down the street as I tried to find a place where I could sit away from passers by. On a bench in a church courtyard, she held my hand and told me that we were holding a baby blue blanket aloft in the wind. I took a deep breath as the imaginary blanket rose and exhaled as it fell. My breath slowed, tears subsided, and I began to calm down. I floated through that residency, lonely, desperate and empty, unmoored from reality. I clenched my knees to my chest on the shower floor, crying. I bummed cigarettes from strangers in an attempt to calm myself down. I was distraught at the prospect of my marriage falling apart and furious that I couldn't be fully present for the residency. Going back to school was an investment in me and my dream, and here I was missing it. I refused to let that happen again. I went home and left my husband. I was devastated and lost. It felt like nothing mattered anymore. We got back together a few weeks later and worked hard to learn how to communicate better. We've been going to couples' therapy and spending more time together. We were much closer than we were just a few months prior, and yet I still worried that being apart would undo us. Between putting our marriage back together, tensions with my mother, and my grandfather dying, I hadn't been able to focus on my writing. I was frustrated, not submitting better work, for not being able to fully commit to this thing I loved. I worried that I wasn't good enough. At my third residency, we analyzed a rape scene in workshop, which makes me think of my assault. We read mother-daughter stories, which made me lament my strained relationship with my alcoholic mother. Someone asked if I ever finish a plate of food, which makes me feel like I'm 13 and anorexic again, with everyone in the cafeteria watching me eat or not eat. My dormer reminds me of the teen psychiatric board I spent time in years earlier. The feeling of being trapped in that small room and in myself feels the same. Though my body no longer displays my illness as it did when I was hospitalized for an eating disorder at 78 pounds, it has grown curves and rounded out into the shape of a woman. It still feels broken outside. I go to as many lectures and readings as I can. I have to walk out of a class I'm interested in. When the lecturer talks about his mother not accepting him as a gay teenager, I am reminded of my teenage struggles with depression, anxiety, and their eating disorder. My parents couldn't accept what felt wrong with me. They wanted there to be an explanation for my pain, and there wasn't one. The tears come quickly and I have to get out of that classroom, but in my panic I pull when I should push and the door rattles. I feel everyone's staring at me. I pace in the hallway outside the lecture hall where I'm sure everyone is washing me through the windows. I'm ashamed of the panic and anxiety boiling over in me. I don't want to be like this. I'm shaking, itching, snapping my hairband on my wrist repeatedly, talking to myself. I'm usually able to hide my anxiety better in front of people, but now I look like a real crazy person. I've gotten pretty good at pretending to be normal. Usually, if I get like this, I excuse myself and go for a run or cry in a place where no one will find me. But here there are people everywhere, no safe, quiet spaces. Even in my room, I can hear other people around me and don't feel safe to let out the tears. I take my emergency-only meds, and at first they work immediately. I can breathe, low, let go. The next day, when I cry in front of my professor while talking about my previous semester, I take another, and then the next day, when I feel trapped in a room full of friends, one isn't working anymore, so I take two. The bottle cells take one to two as needed, and this feels needed. My hands shake so much as I struggle to open the bottle that a fuse spill down the vent on the floor. The person I become on them scares me, and after not taking any for a few days, I have itchy skin, shakes, paranoia, panic. I don't feel in control of my body, but somehow make the three-hour drive home. I stay up all night and write 200 pages of nonsense. I post long diatribes on Facebook. I'm so excitable and leaping out of my skin. It feels like everyone around me is moving in slow motion. I feel like I am finally myself, my brightest self. Dylan is afraid of me. I feel like you still haven't come home, he says a week later. An arm therapist teaching thusses what I've always suspected, but I am too much for him. He tells me how difficult this is for him, how he has barely slept. I try to explain that I'm doing my best to protect him from myself, that I need help. My mental illness feels like a weight I can't carry anymore. Dylan wants me to promise that things will get better, that I will never be like this again, which is a promise I can't make. I tell him that I will get better and almost believe it, but I know there will be more days like this. I can't put up with this, he says. And I hear, I can't love all the broken parts in you. I am diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which is a relief to have words for what's wrong with me. My medications are adjusted and eventually things feel in control. I learn to talk to Dylan when I'm anxious and he learns to listen. I take deep breaths, exercise when I get too worked up, and reach out when I need help. I'm vigilant about self-care during my final two residencies. I go to bed early and drink no more than two drinks. I take breaks when I need to, which sometimes means I skip things I want to attend. I go for walks in the woods. I run. I talk to Dylan most days. He sends me flowers. I become more open about a mental illness. From my graduate lecture, I talk about representations of mentally ill-limited fiction, which I begin by talking about my institutionalization when I was 13 and my eventual bipolar diagnosis. Talking about it feels freeing, like I don't have to hide it anymore. I feel less alone. I still struggle with anxiety and depression, but with psychoanalysis, the right combination of medications, and a support system, I manage my mental health and complete my MFA. The Bennington writing seminars pushed me in all the ways I needed, though difficult. It forced me to reconcile with my mental health. I'm learning to love all the parts of myself, even the ones that feel broken.

Gabe Nathan 41:53

Wow. Thank you. Thank you for reading that and thank you for writing that.

Reading: “Manic MFA” Essay

Erika Nichols-Frazer 42:00

Thank you.

Gabe Nathan 42:00

What was it what was it like to go back to that to that piece and to that time in your life for you?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 42:09

Yeah, I you know, people often ask what it's like to write about really personal mental health uh struggles and you know if it brings things up for you and sometimes it does. And so I always sort of have this fear when I revisit things that I'm going to go back to like that mental state. Um and this felt safe going back to it. I felt like I've come a long way, just felt distance, just felt like, you know, I was able to sort of um process and um intellectualize it. And it felt like it it felt um searching for words. Um, yeah, I felt sort of proud that I had put in so much work since then, you know, the past seven years, and that, you know, it had made a big difference and that I was able to get through that experience and grow from it, and that my husband and I were able to grow from it and you know put in the work. Um, so reading that back again, it feels almost like a different version of myself that experienced that, you know, um seven plus years ago. Um, because it spans, you know, a few years. Um, and so I look back at that and think, wow, I've I've really come a long way. And I think there's something to be said about that, that it's often hard for us to reflect back on our progress. And, you know, especially if we do relapse or have an episode or have, you know, um some something, it can feel really frustrating, like, oh, I thought I was over this, or I thought, you know, I was better or whatever. Um, and so I think it's important to take that moment to look back sometimes and say, wow, I've I've done a lot of work, you know, like you know, I've been in a very different place now. Um and to recognize that I think that's important.

Gabe Nathan 43:37

A lot of really hard work. And I think also sometimes people don't want to look back because if you if you've done the work and you've gotten to a really good place, like the fuck do I want to look in the rearview mirror for I don't want to see that. Uh I don't wanna I don't wanna know her. I don't wanna I don't identify with her, I don't want to know, but um you know, in the same way. That it's important to acknowledge the work and acknowledge where you are right now and acknowledge how you got there. I think it's also important to acknowledge where you were and that that's that was true then and that that's that's part of your story. Um which you immortalized in this piece. Um that's there, that's not going away, that's part of the story. Um it's so interesting too that what like the the title is a little deceptive because of course it is about your MFA and it is about your relationship with academia and what was happening as you were pursuing this, but so much of the essay is about you and Dylan. Um and I I'm curious about your did you have any trepidations about writing about the relationship? Um, you know, how involved was Dylan when you were writing the piece? Did he read drafts and things like that? You know, what was that like?

Erika Nichols-Frazer 45:08

Yeah, I couldn't write about it if I didn't have his full support in in that. Um, you know, I don't I wouldn't be able to do it um emotionally or just you know morally, I think. Um, you know, and so he gave me full permission and he said um at one point, well, that happened, so you can write about it. Like that's your story. And um, you know, and so that's always sort of been his attitude um that you write what you need to write, um, write and um reflect about it. He's a lot more reserved than I am. He's not someone who talks publicly about his struggles. And so um, you know, um this I'm trying to remember, I don't think I think I asked if he wanted to look at a draft and he didn't, and he said, You write what you need to write. Um, and then he read it when um when it came out. Um, for my memoir that came out in 2022, December 2022. Um, you know, um he has not read a full draft of it um and asked my permission to not read a full draft of it. Um, you know, he's heard a lot of um excerpts and various readings and and events. Um, and I promised him that I would never read something um that made him uncomfortable. Um, so I was always very careful at what I selected um when I read um pieces. Um he says, you know, I I know the stories that I've lived it, I I don't really want to go back and read it. Um, you know, and um and I respect that, right? He respects my ability and my need to write about it, and I respect his decisions whether to um look back at that particular part of the experience, um, right. And that's and I think that that's kind of part of our mutual understanding and respect that we both deal with it in our own way. Um, you know, he is someone who's not super comfortable with therapy, and I fully give him credit for going to couples therapy with me for six months and doing that work um because I know that was really difficult for him. And um, one of the things that we we sort of made a contract, um, we agreed, we went to a therapist that was about an hour away from where we live, um because we live in a pretty small rural community and there's not a lot of um providers there. And so um the deal was that we would always drive together um and that we would always get coffee or lunch afterwards um and talk about whatever we needed to finish talking about. Um, and that we wouldn't just you know get in our cars and go separate ways and go about our days, that um we would kind of complete the the session, right? Because so much comes up in these sessions, you know, for an hour and not everything gets resolved, right? And so we agreed to to sit with that together, even if we're just sitting there mad at each other drinking coffee, right? And not talking about it really. But but we would always kind of get to a point where we got home where we felt like we'd had the conversation we needed to have. Um and that I think was a big part of the process for us. Um, it was helpful to have a therapist there in the room, but then also for us to be able to continue to, you know, go through what we need to go through, um, just the two of us.

Gabe Nathan 47:53

Yeah, it's the meeting after the meeting, you know, that that happens after every meeting. Um and especially in therapy, I think that's that's really wonderful that you're able to do that. Um if you if you were approached by someone who was maybe a burgeoning writer, um, who was living with mental health challenges, who said to you know, Erika, like I've read I've read some of your stuff, I've read some of your stuff online. Um I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not I want to write publicly about my mental health challenges. Um what would you say now?

Processing The Past And Measuring Growth

Erika Nichols-Frazer 48:36

Well, I think it's a really personal, individual choice, but for me, it has been a really big part of my recovery and my healing process, being able to talk about these things publicly. Um it also has really helped me um kind of work through my own issues in writing. So that's what I think what we do when we write, particularly when we're writing um personal narratives, right? Um, that we're having to reflect, right, and look back. And um, you know, when you're writing something like for recovery diaries, I know the like something you've always asked for is the recovery aspect, what's helped you, you know, move past it and get better. And so that's always a story I wanted to tell. I don't want to tell just a bleak, depressing story about the hard stuff. I also want to talk about, you know, real kind of tangible takeaways that have helped me. And so I think, you know, as I said earlier, that's been a really helpful process for for me writing about it. And I do really appreciate when people do reach out and say, you know, that that's helped them. Or um, you know, I had people who I went to middle school with who written to me, you know, when I read my book that I didn't know you were going through that. I was going through something similar, you know, kind of thing. Right. And so um, like that's really important to hear, to have those connections with people, um, I think. And so I I guess I would say that it can be really healing, but it can also be really difficult and that you need to be kind to yourself, right? I always recommend um, you know, really actively engaging in self-care when you're doing this kind of work because it's it's a lot to revisit sometimes and to dig deep, you know, and think about painful things. Um, and so giving yourself space and time and knowing you need to step away from it, um, making sure that you have people you can talk about it, whether it's a therapist that you can work through things with, or just someone who is, you know, a trusted listener. Um, I think those things are really important. So being really like vigilant about self-care um and you know, making a plan going into it. This is what I'll do when I get to this point. You know, this is knowing your triggers and that certain things are gonna be really difficult for you to revisit. Um, and but that it can be really healing. And in my experience, writing about these things and putting them out in the world has sort of felt like lifting them out from outside of myself, you know, where I was like holding them deep in and they don't feel as held in anymore. Right. Like now they're out there in the world and it sort of like releases some of that tension for me. And so um that's been my experience, but you know, it's really a personal experience. Not everyone can or wants to talk about these things publicly or publish them. Um, right. And so, you know, I would say don't feel pressure to do that if that doesn't feel right to you. Um, but that it can be really rewarding and really healing. And it can really build connections with other people, which I I you know, I've been talking about that. I think that's so important too.

Gabe Nathan 51:15

Yeah. And and that's I think a great counter to the narrative that mental illness tells you, which is that you're alone and that everybody hates you and and everyone thinks you're a failure and everyone would be better off if you weren't here and all that stuff. When you're when you're sharing, you're you're going to magnetically attract people, I think, um, who are grateful that you stepped forward and shared what you did, um, that it to let you know that it resonated with them, that it helped them. And you know, creating that kind of community around yourself, it's a wonderful way to fight back against that lie um that you are alone.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 51:58

I agree. And the other really great thing that's come out of it for me is that um people with loved ones or people in their lives who struggle with mental illness, um, they've told me that they've learned a lot from my experiences in the writings that I've done. Um, if they're able to apply that, whether, you know, I've heard that I have more empathy now for my cousin, brother, aunt, whoever they um went through that or I understand that more, or you know, that really helped me understand one person. So that helped me understand my clients a lot more, right? Um, and like what they're going through. Um, you know, and so that's really beautiful too, that people can learn from it, whether or not that's their own experience. Um, right, and then they can see um, you know, oh, that someone's sharing this this story. And even though it's, you know, my story, it it, you know, may be similar to other stories as well.

Writing About Relationships With Consent

Gabe Nathan 52:45

But like you said, and I think it's also important to to recognize and honor this, you don't have to do it publicly. Of course. Um and I I was at a health advocate conference and the the the final talk was given by this woman who, you know, she's like, I I'm I am on the cusp of thinking about, you know, I going through that door and um, you know, being public. And and I went up to her after the talk and I said, you know, I I really enjoyed your talk. And I I just want to make sure you understand that you never have to go through that. If you don't want to, right, you know, to not feel pressured to do that. And there may be uh forces or factors or people who are pressuring you to do that, or maybe it's happening subliminally or subconsciously. You're you're seeing other people, you're going, oh God, you know, feeling this internal pressure, but I need to do this, but you don't. Um and that's why Recovery Diaries has writers and we have readers, uh, and we have uh people who are on the podcast and we have listeners, and we have people on the films and we have viewers. Um, and it's all important. Um it's just I think it's something to be really thoughtful and and mindful about. Um whether you're gonna be able to do it.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 54:08

I think it's great that's not why people are talking about their own experiences, but like you said, that's certainly, you know, it's a really personal choice as to, you know, and to to consider potential ramifications of what that's gonna feel like for you, right? Um maybe it's you just talk to you know professional or you talk to, you know, someone in your life. I do think it's important to have someone to talk to, um, you know, but it doesn't necessarily need to be on a public platform. That's really a personal decision um to make. But I personally found um the response really um rewarding and supportive um, you know, amongst the community that I've um been able to create.

Gabe Nathan 54:44

And someone to talk to. And I'm gonna thank you for talking to me today. Um, Erika Nichols-Frazer thank you so, so much um for spending some time with me. I'm just wishing you all the best with your career, your marriage, your life, your baby. Um thank you.

Erika Nichols-Frazer 55:04

Thank you so much.

Gabe Nathan 55:08

Thank you again for joining us in conversation today. It's beautiful to see the progression of our contributors. What a joy it was to share time, space, and conversation with Erika Nichols-Frazer, a three-time recovery diaries author. Her memoir, Feed Me, was published by Casper Press in 2022, and she has two books coming out in 2026, No One Will Ever Hear You, Stories from Rootstock Publishing, and Can You Hear Her? The Moon. Before we leave you, we want to remind you to check out our website, recoverydiaries.org. There, like this podcast, you'll find additional stories, videos, and content about mental health, empowerment, and change. We look forward to continuing to grow our community. Thank you so much for being a part of it. We wouldn't be here without you. Be sure to join our mailing list so you never miss a podcast episode, essay, or film. I'm Gabe Nathan. Until next time, take good care.