Wolfe Power Club
The Wolfe Power Club Podcast is an exciting platform for exploring crucial topics in the energy sector! With a focus on investment trends, governmental policies, and the evolving landscape of energy consumption, it promises to provide valuable insights for both industry professionals and the general public.
Host Alex Wolfe's background as an Energy director and experience in opening the first HVO Truck Bunker in Britain undoubtedly brings a wealth of expertise to the discussions. By engaging with guests who possess diverse perspectives and opinions on energy-related issues, the podcast is likely to offer a well-rounded exploration of the sector's challenges and opportunities.
Every guest will answer the big 3 questions:
- Where are you investing in Energy Industry?
- What do you want from the Government?
- What do you want Energy Customers to do?
Wolfe Power Club
Bosch Reignites the Liquid Fuel Debate | S1EP50
On this week’s episode of Wolfe Power Club, our host Alex is joined by John Gassenmaier from technology supplier Bosch, to talk about their pivotal role in the automative value chain.
From their involvement with OEM-approved fuels to their ambitious summer Tour d'Europe project, where Bosch collaborated with 28 partners across 17 countries to explore the benefits of HVO fuel in the HGV market, we learn how Bosch use the findings from Tour d’Europe to present to the EU government that liquid fuels are an essential third pillar of energy transition.
We also get to hear from Bosch's innovative digital fuel twin, on how it is revolutionising fleet management for transport directors.
This episode is kindly sponsored by Prema Energy. Visit their website today to learn how they provide businesses with eco-friendly alternative fuels.
John Gassenmaier has been with Bosch for over 20 years, in different sales functions for hardware components for over 10 years, and he has been engaged in sales for “connected"-related software features since 2022. In this role, John has been promoting Bosch's digital fuel twin, since its product launch in late 2023.
Bosch website: https://www.bosch.com/
Visit Bosch's Tour d’Europe project here: https://tourdeurope.eu/
Bosch's digital fuel twin solution: https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/solutions/software-and-services/digital-fuel-twin/
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- A focus on investment trends, governmental policies, and the evolving landscape of energy consumption, it promises to provide valuable insights for both industry professionals and the general public.
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Aim Recruit is an expert recruiter for transport, logistics and energy positions.
Make renewable fuels as the third pillar in the decarbonisation strategy. We're seeing very good examples, for instance BMW. They've gone all in. They've just given out a complete release for all vehicles, for all diesel-powered vehicles, for HVO that they've ever produced. If you simply went from E10 up to E20, just making the quantification across the market, you can come to a similar CO2 reduction.
Speaker 2:Today's episode has been brought to you by our sponsor, prima energy. Are you looking for a reliable supplier of wholesale sustainable fuels? Prima energy is leading the way in providing business with eco-friendly alternatives from hvo and hvo blended fuel to advance low CO2 heating and marine fuels. They offer a range of solutions that help you significantly reduce your carbon footprint while optimising your fuel budget, all while ensuring efficient and dependable supply. Visit PrimaEnergycom today to learn about how they're fuelling a greener future. One sustainable barrel at the time that's p-r-e-m-a energycom today. Thank you very much to prima.
Speaker 2:Wolf power cup listeners, what an amazing summer we've had, and last week we had obviously the wimbledon team talk about how to power the biggest tennis tournament on earth, and you can still win a Novak Djokovic book or Rafa Nadal book if you follow us on LinkedIn or if you sign up to our newsletter, with the competition closing on the 14th of July. But the fun does not stop this summer. A few weeks ago, I was the guest of Bosch at Tour de Europe, which brings together multiple people from the automotive value chain that delivers solutions for our whole community. I've always been fascinated by Bosch because, essentially, whenever you bring a new fuel to the market, ultimately the customer wants to know does my guarantee still work? Is my warranty still covered? And there's one company that works with many, many automotive people, from the car makers to the LGVs, to the HGVs, and that's Bosch. And therefore I'm delighted to welcome a Bosch colleague who essentially, has had over two decades at the forefront of this technology. John, please can I welcome you to the Wolf Power Club podcast.
Speaker 1:Well, hello, nice to be here.
Speaker 2:And John, just for our listeners. Where are you calling in from today?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm based just outside of Stuttgart in Germany, where BOSCH is one of its major development sites, so that's where I'm based.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, and I've got to say Stuttgart is one of my favorite cities. It's that lovely mix of a good night out, but also the industrial heartland powering Europe forward. So it's great to have you calling in from Stuttgart today. So so we're going to get straight into it. In the automotive value chain, what is Bosch's role and what parts for cars LGVs and HGV engines do you guys get involved with?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess Bosch's been there all along, ever since the car came up. We're the inventor of the spark plug and that's when it started, I think around the turn of the century 1800 to 1900. And then has become well, I would guess we are still the biggest supplier in the world of automotive. So we do a whole range of anything around fuel injection equipment, of anything around fuel injection equipment that's pumps, rails, injectors, spark plugs. I could rattle down the whole catalogue but I think that'd take an hour or so. Also, we've got brake components, a whole lot of controls, software to control the equipment, and also have been venturing into new areas like e-motors, battery for hybrids and so on. So also hydrogen is one of the new activities. So I think it's fair to say we're covering more or less the biggest part of the propulsion components that you would find anywhere in the automotive sector.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what's great for our listeners. Today We've got someone who essentially is involved in so many parts of it. But I know when I was running four courts and big energy groups and supplying thousands of stations, we'd often get very great entrepreneurs or inventors come with us with fuels or fuel solutions. But our first question would always be is it OEM compliant? And normally what that was an indication is whether it's spark plugs, pumps or so on. Does it work with Bosch kit and have Bosch signed it off?
Speaker 2:Because if you blend a fuel wrong, as you know, it won't work with engines. So when we look at the energy supply chain entrepreneurs trying to release new fuels, companies bringing new fuels to the market as a consumer or as the forecourts on the wholesale side you want to know it's compliant. So, on the energy supply chain, from forecourts to industry, consumer we need to have it OEM approved. We need it OEM approved so that warranties on vehicles stay valid and that drop in fuels like an HVO can actually go to mass market when we sell it to customers. So why is Bosch so critical in this part of OEM approval? And what are you looking for to approve a fuel to go through your both existing and future equipment.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, I think we're in a similar situation like any driver of a truck, in that we also have to cover for the liability of our components that we sell to the customers. They have to complete a certain lifetime that is contractually agreed. If ever anything were to go wrong on those components because they're not or they've been used with an incorrect fuel that hasn't been released, we might be liable for having to replace millions of injectors or components on the car. So the cost for that would be just dramatically high, fatally high. Of course we also have to be very cautious about fuels that we can release for our components. Typical topics are things like injector nozzle clogging or you might have corrosion on components. These are typical topics we have when checking for fuel compliance with our components.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I know that. Certainly, when you're looking at sort of dropping fuels that might reduce a mixture of NOx or carbon, there is sometimes the challenge of that. There's more water-based products, nox or carbon. There is sometimes the challenge of that. There's more water-based products and, as you know, that sometimes reacts badly with the long-term life or essentially water and fuel don't go well and that blending has to be so so spot on. So essentially, what in the in the fuel side of the component needs to be, is you kind of need to get as close to diesel as possible, don't you? In terms of once it's blended, so that these areas don't clog up? That worked for so many years.
Speaker 1:But having said that, bosch did their um homework on hvo already some years back I think it was like in the years 2020 to 21 and we we quickly saw that we're not seeing any major compliance issues with that. So now the problem is not on our side, the problem is on the OEM side, the vehicle manufacturer side. It's their job to release the vehicles, and with release I mean also going backwards in the manufacturing years of the cars or the trucks. And we're seeing very good examples, for instance BMW. They've gone all in. They've just given out a complete release for all vehicles, for all diesel-powered vehicles for HVO that they've ever produced.
Speaker 1:And if I can add another comment, a private comment me myself I drive a nine-year-old Volkswagen Touran. I have not respected the release of the OEM. I have done this at my private risk and I can confirm that it's working beautifully. So, even if there is no OEM release for HVO, if you're willing to take the risk privately or as a company, we are hearing a lot of very positive feedback from the market. But again, I have to say that'll be at your private risk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I would say there is that we're now at a stage, certainly in the UK, where we do have OEM approval from the big HGV users. That certainly allowed me back a couple of years ago to approve it for a bunker site on fuel cards when we opened the first ever one Energy, who are supplying really top-end product across the sector so that essentially, vehicles can run and actually as they. We've moved on from that debate but we've got this wonderful relationship with Bosch. But Bosch don't just have a relationship with a single OEM or a single fuel supplier. This year you guys went about a European road trip. Now many of us love a European road trip. Now many of us love a European road trip on holidays.
Speaker 2:But this was purely for commercially, bringing together all the various stakeholders across Europe On the Tour de Europe this summer across May and June. My understanding is Bosch alongside 28 partners, and we'll put a link into the website, guys, so you can see all the people that are involved in Tour de Europe. There were 17 countries involved. You took 16 vehicles. I know on some stages it went up from that and you did over 70 events on Tour de Europe across and I was very fortunate to come to your London one in Westminster. What was the objectives, what were the findings and what was the stakeholder reception along the way to this great adventure of the automotive supply chain coming together and showing what technology could be used on liquid fuels?
Speaker 1:OK. Well, if we go to the starting ground of this whole activity At the moment, if we look at how we're doing with decarbonizing road transport in Europe that including the UK, by the way we're seeing that we're not making tremendous progress In the world of passenger cars. In most countries, the quota of EVs is stagnant at around somewhere around 20%, and this is not getting us close to anywhere where we need to be. Climate change is not waiting. We now have to take more actions if we want to make progress, and it's for this that we have seen in industry, we need to have a plan B, we need to have more options and we need to find solutions that are really accepted by the customers, by the end customers, and it is then that we turned to the renewable fuels as also a decarbonization solution for those cars combustion engine cars on the road today, which is still going to be on the road for minimum of the next 20 years and maybe for a whole lot longer, and these are the cars that are accepted by the customer.
Speaker 1:They have been bought, they are there and they will be burning fossil fuels if we don't come up with an alternative, and it's for this reason that we said, let's demonstrate the potential that lies in renewable fuels. Let's demonstrate to the politicians that this is not a crazy future vision, but that the fuels are already available, that you can travel from Lisbon up to Helsinki and all across Europe using these fuels, and that they need to be given the credit for their CO2 reduction potential in legislation, which today is not the case. So in today's legislation, what we have is that a combustion engine equates emission of fossil CO2. And we were there to demonstrate that that nurse is not necessarily. It needs to be the case in future that's that.
Speaker 2:That is great, because I think, as you say, when you've got 20 of transition and let's be very clear, certainly in the uk market that's only 20 of new sales and it doesn't take tend to count the backlog of vehicles. So you're still having four vehicles purchased for every one, and therefore you know there are barriers. We'll go on to that on future episodes and we're going to pass ones. But essentially, as you say, the liquid fuel is extremely in demand, fuel is, is is extremely in demand, and then that sort of leads me nicely to actually where tour to europe represents the sort of buying patterns in the uk market.
Speaker 2:So in the uk market, in the last year, approximately um eight billion liters of diesel has uh been purchased amongst the hgv and lgv community. Amongst this and and we know that figure from tax returns the second figure, though, has been a bit of research by wolf power club, so I'm feel free if people want to dispute it, but I think we've done pretty good research is that we've spoken to a lot of the suppliers, um, and it looks like the hvo is approaching 550 million litres of that 8 billion, and we've got multiple sites opening across Europe with that fuel. We certainly saw a big change in the UK when red, which was the tax-rebated fuel, could no longer be used for big parts of the supply chain. Essentially, the forecourts have changed it over to HVO. Essentially, um, the forecourts have changed it over to hvo. So what do you see the benefits to the hgv market?
Speaker 1:not just on hvo, but just in drop-in fuels in general, because ultimately it's going to be bosch components that are working with those drop-in fuels well, at the end of the day I mean the the benefits are at hand, um, you don't have to invest in new vehicles, you don't have to invest in charging infrastructure. Basically, you're just using everything that's already there and you just putting a different fuel. So it's.
Speaker 2:It's trying to make it as easy for the end customer as possible to switch to a decarbonization solution, and this is this is the big advantage that the renewable fuels have is that it doesn't require a whole lot of upfront investment, but you simply using what you have on hand and buy a different fuel and I think that's almost one of the points that I saw passionately expressed amongst the different people in that room was that sometimes I feel that politicians have gone for engine type because it's very easy to do on ampr and, whereas you guys have created things like digital twins that can help with that and I've always felt that you could always do it. Also, a relationship of paper tax returns, because ultimately, do your VAT electronically. I see no reason why you can't do your fuel supply supply. Do you think that's been one of the reasons why politicians have pushed back? Because almost saying electric or saying you know other engine types meant that it made their job easier, even if it wasn't the quickest way to get to a cleaner society?
Speaker 1:I don't think it's even that. I think, if we go back five years, uh, renewable fuels really just weren't heard of. So when they started really bringing up these decarbonization strategies both in the UK and in the European Union, you'd have to go with what was available technically at the time, which was mainly electrification and this idea of bringing hydrogen to the market, but not really as an established technology.
Speaker 2:Yet Now, five to ten years down the road, we're seeing that renewable fuels are also widely available, and it's now that we need to address a review of legislation to establish renewable fuels as the we like to call it, the third pillar in the decarbonization strategy, alongside electrification and hydrogen I like that, the third pillar of uh of of the transition, and I think it's a great shout, because something came up in the q a at the to the europe london session which I'd not heard of before and I was just wondering if you could expand on a bit for our listeners. In the Q&A part there was a discussion that if petrol moved from E10 to E20, it would have a greater environmental benefit than the current total electric car sales and I was just understanding what are the opportunities for E20 and how would Bosch work with? What are the opportunities for E20 and how would Bosch work with a market that moved to E20?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the numbers were actually brought forward by a company who's providing the ethanol part that is today already blended into conventional gasoline. And, according to their estimates, if you simply went from E10, which is widely available in Germany where I reside, up to E20, just making the quantification across the market, counting the number of gasoline cars and the quantities of fuel used there if you simply upgrade the blend from 10% to 20% of renewable content, you can come to a similar CO2 reduction. That's equivalent to the CO2 reductions that all EVs have incurred of EVs on the road in Germany today. So this is just a simple mass macroeconomic numbers put side by side and made a comparison.
Speaker 2:I think what's exciting about that as well is that we've also seen issues that sort of Bosch don't get directly involved in this then total life of vehicles and that obviously has a huge energy and consumption impact and environment impact. And essentially where that E20 comes in is it means vehicles stay on the road longer. People haven't exist. We've seen also first generation electric cars having very, very challenging problems in terms of getting a resale market. It does actually give huge optimism and I can't wait to see where the e20 discussion goes, because when I hear numbers like that, that's a very exciting change for minimal impact on the consumer. I it's just lifting a nozzle, um, but it needs the forecourt industry to come on board. So yeah, I look forward to that debate continuing.
Speaker 2:Then we moved on to obviously it wasn't just Bosch on Tour de Europe, as I mentioned earlier 28 partners. But what are some of the things that the collective group want from the UK and EU governments? I appreciate Bosch is a global company and therefore there's probably other governments, but as we know, if the EU or UK does something, then normally other governments try and replicate policy and so on. But what can they do to support the automotive value train?
Speaker 1:Well, what we're seeing today is legislation which is based on the fact that it equates combustion engine technology with fossil emissions of CO2. And this is this direct link that we have to break up, because if you're running your vehicle on renewable fuels, you know why should a OEM be penalized with a theoretical value if in reality, this emission isn't even taking place? So this is this complete change of mindset that we're campaigning for at the moment. And then the second part is the ban on combustion engine technology. In the UK it's in 2030, and with hybrids then 2035. In the UK it's in 2030, and with hybrids then 2035. Slightly later, with a ban for passenger car combustion engine technology in 2035.
Speaker 1:And the stance we're taking there is to say you know, if you really do see the potential in renewable fuels by 2035, let's bring a new kind of vehicle to the market. It's it's based on combustion engine technology. It has a engine inside, but it is fitted with the digital fuel twin, which provides to the engine software the signal that the fuel that went into the tank is actually renewable or is fossil, and then, similar to like you'd have it on AdBlue today, you would be able to bring forward a certain mechanism to promote the user to actually use renewable fuels only, or inversely. If he's not using them, then there'd have to be a certain sanctioning mechanism behind it.
Speaker 2:And John john, that's really, I think, stuff that our listeners won't have heard before about the digital twin, unless they're a customer. I know you and your team have been working on it since uh 23 when it was released to the public, but it's really stepped up in the last year. Um, have you guys got any case studies of where people said, suddenly, actually I can do x which I couldn't do before the digital tune came out from Bosch?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. That was. One of the main aims of the Tour de Europe was to demonstrate what is possible in terms of CO2 reductions on a given road trip. On a given road trip and the numbers we're seeing on diesel engine cars, we can get values above 80%. Theoretically you can even get them higher to up as far as 95% CO2 reductions.
Speaker 1:Gasoline engines it's a little bit harder, but there also we were able to demonstrate reduction potentials between 25% and there is even potential to bring them up to 70%. There is a fuel supplier in Spain who's come out on the market with a gasoline fuel that's already coming with a 70% CO2 reduction. So there is tremendous potential for decarbonizing combustion engine technology and we have demonstrated that this is possible. Today you can take your car as it's standing in your garage to a filling station and if it's selling renewable fuels, you've already found a very good fix at a very high percentage of your mobility carbon emissions and I think that leads nicely to um, essentially the role of, say, the transport director or the ceo of a logistics company if, say, for instance, they've got fleets in the tens or hundreds of vehicles.
Speaker 2:Um, from what I saw was that digital fuel twin also allowed them to do as a group was to actually be able to answer questions when people were saying what does your whole fleet do, what, what's coming back on your fleet? And I think that's where I was very impressed by the technology. I was just wondering if yet you've had any fleets adapt it and sort of the the director of transport or equivalent gives that feedback. Because that's what I saw in the day was that suddenly I as a fleet operator am back in control about the breakdown of the differences between the various products on the forecourt and what my fleet's actually using.
Speaker 1:Well, exactly that's what DFT is all about. And we can take it even a bit further. We can emit a so-called fuel usage certificate. So if we put ourselves in the situation of a haulier, you might have an end customer who is willing to pay a little extra for you, as a haulier, to use HVO, which is still coming, usually at a bit of an up price. Use HVO, which is still coming, usually at a bit of an up price. We can provide to the haulier the certificate for every refill in that vehicle to demonstrate has it really been HVO or was it a fossil refill because there was no other filling station available at the time when the refill was necessary. And you can demonstrate that to your end customer to say, okay, on your trip that I was traveling on for transporting your goods, I incurred a co2 reduction of 80, of 60, of 95, whatever the contract is and I think that I mean I've already seen.
Speaker 2:You know, three or four years ago we were getting customers that bought a significant amount of fuel across Europe.
Speaker 2:One of them might have been one of the big sports brands I won't say who they are, but let's say the majority of you would have worn T-shirts or trainers with them on and they're very, very clear that if certain things weren't done and certain energy reduction didn't happen would lose the contract to supply them.
Speaker 2:They actually switched fuel suppliers over this and I think what's great is that means that they can meet their internal esg goals, but also I think it means that it gives industry which I always think is the most productive is that industry takes the lead to change their behaviors so that essentially, as policy makers, they don't need to make rules and conditions because actually industry comes to the table first and leads it, and I know, for instance, at the Tour de Europe, those sort of words were being echoed by the likes of in the London session. Dhl were there sort of expressing sort of why they've gone about it, and I think it gives real excitement. If people want to find out more from your team about the digital fuel twin, what's the best way for a company to approach you guys to maybe roll out digital fuel twin in their fleet yeah, everyone is free to.
Speaker 1:To simply google bosch digital fuel twin and you would be directly forwarded to to our company's website. If you are interested in the results of the the tour, the tour de rop as it was called, the policy campaign there again, tour de ropeu is the website where we are showing what it's all about, who was participating, where we've been and what the results are there's the big, uh, the big truck in the car park or elephant in the room.
Speaker 2:Um, in the last year we talked about how the car market had stagnated at 20. It's been even more challenging for the hgv market. Um, at wolf power club we're preparing documents to go to adipec, to go to you know we're chairing the spectator energy summit this this november is that essentially, hgv market has been even harder than that 20% in that when we look at the worldwide sales of vehicles, we're still looking on electric HGVs at less than 1%. For all of those HGV electric passenger fans. We do have in a few weeks the CEO of Windrose Technology, who is the company that's got a 700 kilometre HGV tractor unit that they are hoping to get EU approval for soon. But essentially, where does Bosch see this balance on the HGV market? So we've got HVO now the drop in fuels that HGVs can use, got hvo now the drop in fuels that hgvs can use.
Speaker 2:Um the market going on past 2050, although it sounds miles away. When you buy a truck, it's average use in the in the eu, depending on what the company fleet's policy is, is somewhere between 8 and 12 years. So anything purchased in the next year will still be probably running around the streets of the EU sort of in the later 2030s, and then, as we also know, they've got second and third lives in either Eastern Europe or Africa or Asia in these vehicles go on. So, bearing that in mind, looking past 2050 and being a sort of significant part of industry purchasing, where does Bosch see the sort of liquid fuel market long term versus alternatives to the liquid fuel market, because at the moment it's about 99% of commercial vehicles being bought a liquid fuel of some sort versus alternatives? Where does Bosch see that long-term thing and does it, and is it part of the reason why the work has happened this this summer on tour de europe?
Speaker 1:well, it's a very good question and, um, had we been talking two, three years ago, at least in the the world of passenger cars, everyone would have said by 2025 we would already be like 30, 40% of the market share electrified, and we're seeing that this is not happening. What we're also seeing is, in the world of HGB, the investment cost for simply creating the charging infrastructure is even much higher. And now, don't get me wrong, we're not trying to position renewable fuels as a counterproposal to electrification in any way at all. What we're seeing at the moment is that there is a certain scarcity of renewable resources, renewable energy of all kinds. It's renewable electricity, it's renewable fuels, it's renewable gases, fuels which also exist. So, basically, the best we can do is to simply activate all renewable resources that we can put our hands on today Because, like you mentioned, electrification, especially in the world of HGV, is not going to run away in the next few years.
Speaker 1:It's going to gradually grow and all the long, new vehicles will be coming on the road and they will be there for a very long time. So we need to also have renewable fuels to decarbonize these vehicles. They're not going to disappear. They will be there, they will be driving on our roads, and if they don't drive on our roads, they'll be driving in other continents roads. So let's find solutions for those cars that are there.
Speaker 2:I think it's very pragmatic, john, and I like it a lot, but I guess also being pragmatic as you know that Bosch, as you said, over the last century has always been there to meet the automotive supply chain needs and I was just wondering how Bosch overall adapts to this now market split of internal combustion engines to EVs in terms of supply chain strategy, because I guess it means that as a company you have to have more lines, more productions, more sort of complexity in that supply chain. How has that adaption been for you guys over the last decade?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess it's fair to say that it hasn't come without problems. We're seeing that. I can give you the example of a manufacturing plant for e-motors in northern Germany which was foreseen as the pilot plant for large market segment for passenger cars, for the motors propelling those cars, and we had to take a large step back there because the market share never came. It didn't come with us, it didn't come with our competitors, it simply just didn't come. So now we have to, on the one hand side, we have to take a step back and extend the life of combustion engine technology and on the other hand we have to see how do we uh downscale the, the, the, the manufacturing lines for, for electric components?
Speaker 2:and I think that is a great business example that I hope all politicians we have a lot of politicians listening to this and getting it to go on is the reality of where you are as a company is that you can invest in all of the equipment, all of the technology, all the deliverables, but the consumer doesn't buy it.
Speaker 2:It means that ultimately it puts constraints on profitability, cash flow, sustainability, that at some point the company has to pivot of what the market needs and essentially, therefore, I hope politicians are listening to this and sort of get the lessons from turtle europe that there are, as you said, these ways to make our drop-in fuels cleaner and the reduction better and avoid sort of potential pitfalls, of sort of loss-making factories where the customer base never comes along.
Speaker 2:And, it's fair to say, on the aviation side we'll be doing quite a bit of that in the future because they've got those challenges at the moment that gap between what the policymaker wants and what the consumer wants, and it's who fills that gap, and and and when. But uh, john, we ask all of our questions um, uh, um, I guess some quick fire questions, um, and you've been absolutely great today and a great representative, bosh, but um, our quick fire questions um and not long answers, just just your immediate thoughts on um. If bosch is to invest time or money into the energy industry going forward in the next 12 months, where would you invest it?
Speaker 1:it's going to be a number of technologies. It's going to be electrification, it's going to be hydrogen. It's going to be renewable fuels. It's going to be a mix of. It's going to be hydrogen, it's going to be renewable fuels. It's going to be a mix of various sources. There's not the one single technology that's going to run away and take the whole market. That's what I believe.
Speaker 2:I think it could be spot on there that it will always be a mix going forward. Now, obviously, you guys ended to do Europe and Brussels. My fine wife used to work in the government there and the parliament there near Tour de Europe in Brussels. My fine wife used to work in the government there and the parliament there. But one thing you'd like the EU government to do in the next 12 months. I know Tour de Europe presented a big case of stuff, but in the next 12 months say when we meet up in summer 26, what would you like the EU government to have done in that period of time?
Speaker 1:Make renewable fuels as the third pillar in the decarbonisation strategy and break the link between combustion engine and a penalty. Assuming it's running on fossil fuel, that rule does no longer apply.
Speaker 2:That sounds a good shout. A good shout. I hope you are listening here, government, and we'll be doing quite a bit of stuff there, and we do have a lot of MEPs listening to the podcast, so please take on that message. Supply chain where it's bosch or something else, do you think you can still come a millionaire? Or do you think that essentially it's dominated by big companies? Or do you think there's hope for that entrepreneur in the automotive supply chain to find something that will just like you know, bosch found the spark plug all those years ago.
Speaker 1:That could, that could be the next great invention if I had new one, um, I probably wouldn't be working for bosch any longer, so no, good, good, good answer, good answer.
Speaker 2:And if anyone does, please let me know, because we're happy to invest in that idea. Then the final quickfire question, because, say, we give um industry, we hold them to account, we, we hold government to account, but often the customer's not held to account. So, john, if there's something you would want Bush customers to do in the next 12 months, what would you like them to consider in the next 12 months?
Speaker 1:I would like to ask every customer to go online and check where is the next filling station for renewable fuels. Everyone can do something to decarbonize their own mobility. Just saying it's not possible. I don't think that's a viable excuse anymore. Go and check what is the best option for you, whether it's electrification, whether it's renewable fuels, whatever it may be but do your part to stop climate, climate change fantastic, I would totally agree with that, guys.
Speaker 2:I I don't know um stuttgart's market as well, but I certainly know in the uk it is very doable, if you've got a fuel card, to pick up hvo and other products uh today, and therefore there's no real barriers. I also know that companies like prima energy, who are sponsoring this this episode, that essentially they deliver um the product all across the united kingdom and therefore I would certainly, as john says, check out where the station is. If you've got any questions and you're not finding answers, please come back to the podcast and we will try and find you that solution. So that's great, john.
Speaker 2:I'd really like to thank you for your time um calling from stuttgart today. I think it's great where bosch and the other 28 involved in terms of europe did, was that actually said. This is the reality and this is what can happen on fuel, and also I've always wanted to get bosch on because, as I say, any new fuel that comes to the market, you guys are so involved that it's great to hear from the you know manufacturer itself about what can happen. I really want to thank you for your time today and an excellent interview. Thanks, alex.
