The Psychology of Divorce: Navigating Separation, ADHD, and Co-Parenting

In this episode of MyFamily Pod, host Nicola Bright, family lawyer at Myerson Solicitors, speaks with Helen Carouzos, a highly experienced HCPC-registered counselling psychologist. 

Together, they delve into the psychological challenges of divorce and separation, the impact of ADHD on family dynamics, and the importance of co-parenting and self-care during turbulent times. 

Topics include: 

• How ADHD can influence divorce and co-parenting. 
• Supporting children emotionally through separation. 
• Building resilience and self-care strategies for parents. 
• Managing legal and emotional stress during separation. 

Whether you're navigating a divorce, supporting a loved one, or seeking expert advice, this episode offers practical tips and compassionate insights to help you through the process. 



If you’re seeking support for a family law matter, our expert team at Myerson Solicitors is here to help. Whether it’s guidance on divorce, financial arrangements, or co-parenting, we provide compassionate, tailored advice. 

Find out more here: https://www.myerson.co.uk/personal/family-law

For more resources and support, you can also reach out to Helen Carouzos for counselling and therapeutic services. 

Find out more here: https://helencarouzos.co.uk/

Stay tuned for more episodes of MyFamily Pod, where we tackle the issues that matter most to families. Don’t forget to subscribe and follow us on social media for updates! 

LinkedIn: Myerson Solicitors 

Instagram: @Myerson.Solicitors 

X: @MyersonLawyers 

Website: www.myerson.co.uk/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hello, everyone. Welcome to My Family Pod. I'm Nicola Bright, family lawyer at Myers& Solicitors, an all-service law firm based in Altrincham. Today I am with my guest, Helen Caruzos, and she is a HCPC Registered Counselling Psychologist and Chartered Member of the British Psychological Society. And today we're going to talk about the psychology of divorce and separation, the impact of ADHD, co-parenting and self-care tips. Welcome, Helen, to our podcast. Thank you, Nicola. Thanks for the introduction and the opportunity to be here today. No problem at all. First of all, for our listeners, I'd really like you to tell me a bit about your practice and the sorts of clients you work with who might be going through family separation and divorce. Okay. So a little bit about me. As you can probably tell, I'm from Australia. and not America or Canada. So I've been a psychologist now for, I think I'm gonna start showing my age, for about 27 years. I trained in Australia. I've been in England now for about 11 years. I've had my own private practice. as you said, in Altrium, in Bowdoin specifically. And I've had my own business now for about seven years. I primarily work with adults, but when I say adults, 16-ish, 17-ish and above. So I'm a child psychologist, so I primarily work with adults, as I said. And for various mental health issues, the most common reason why people come to see me is probably anxiety, depression, relationship issues. work issues, grief and loss, PTSD, OCD. So pretty much most of the sort of conditions or issues and concerns that people might have and it's impacting their mental health. I strive to be more eclectic or integrated in my approach with my clients. So I don't have a one system fits all, one approach fits all client. So I really do tailor make my intervention according to client needs because everyone's unique and everyone's different. Even if they are struggling with similar symptoms, everyone is still different because everyone's experiences are different and unique to them. So yeah, I also work a lot in ADHD coaching. So I also see adults who've been recently diagnosed with ADHD. I can think of a few cases already that I've got on at the moment where there's children with ADHD, but also the parents who have been diagnosed in later life. And it can impact if we're helping the parent or the spouse with ADHD impacts on how, first of all, readily available they are because they might not want to talk about difficult issues or try and use distraction techniques. This is what they tell me anyway. And also when we're trying to take instructions or explain difficult things to them, which legal documents are difficult to read for anyone. And if you can't focus for very long, they find it really difficult to provide instructions and we have to take a really different approach with those people, with those clients. So is it something you found? Yes, that's exactly about those sort of problems. Okay, we're talking about legal documents here, but in my experience working with ADHD clients, it will be around problems concentrating and focusing, whether that's at work. particularly if they're in admin or any kind of job which requires procedures and a process where they have to read documents or maybe reply back to emails. So it is a common symptom that they will find it difficult to sit and process information and do what's required, not because they don't want to. And, you know, this is the thing that really annoys me. It's not about laziness. No, it's, you know, in fact, they're the most active people and determined people that you can ever meet. And often most success Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's not about laziness, just a real struggle because of those deficiencies in the brain, the neurotransmitter, all the brain chemicals, namely dopamine and norepinephrine, they find it difficult to do the sorts of things that perhaps you and I take for granted. So in that way, I provide the coaching, which is about providing strategies and techniques to help them come up with a system that works for them you know so it may be that they don't go from a to b like a neurotypical person but it might be they need to go from a to c and then come back to b you know it doesn't matter what the method is what matters is the outcome and when you look at productivity efficiency outcome levels if there's no difference it doesn't matter how they get there the point is they get there you know and i think that's the difference but Where the frustration and the anger and the sadness and the anxiety comes in is when you've got these neurodiverse clients trying to fit in or A non-linear brained person trying to fit into a linear brained world. It's not going to match sometimes. And a lot of the time it doesn't, you know. So this is the thing. And I think workplaces are starting to come around to that. But I think we still have a long way to go. And I always say every workplace should at least have one ADHD person in it. Because if you need ideas, you go to an ADHD person because they're brilliant. So they're creative, usually above average intelligence. And at the same time, you know, the concern is, well, they might not get to follow up. They might not, you know, finish tasks. That's okay. But that's the whole point of being in a team is to be able to work out, well, you're great at the ideas. How about we give that to Nicola to maybe follow up, you know? And so everyone brings their strengths. Yeah. It's like you have the knowledge, but they're not necessarily the tools. Yes. Yeah. And that's when coaching can help you use different tools. Yeah, exactly. When an actual fact, when I... It's interesting when people come to see me for coaching, it's never just about the coaching. So I always say, I actually offer a mix. So I come up with my own phrase and what I do offer is therapeutic coaching. Because when someone is struggling with their ADHD journey, particularly pre-diagnosed, it doesn't, well, or throughout even post-diagnosis, you know, a whole lifetime, it does impact people's self-esteem and confidence. And, you know, that little voice in your head that talks to you about you, it's not particularly healthy or positive. And so So how can it not be a mental health issue? So this is why I find I might start off with the coaching, but then, and I do flag this with them, we might need to stop and go, right. We just need to put that on the back burner for now, depending on what the situation is. Sometimes it's in parallel. And we need to address what we call in psychology unfinished business. And it might be a previous trauma. It might be a bad experience they've had that they've managed to compartmentalize in some way. So yeah, they've learned to cope, but they really haven't processed a lot of that trauma. The problem we saw is that impacts ADHD as well. The problem we find, particularly with separation and divorce proceedings, is if you're on the receiving end of phone news and perhaps you are not neurotypical or you may have mental health conditions, undiagnosed or diagnosed, you're then dealing with the shock of someone telling you, I want to leave the marriage and all the implications of that. Quite quickly then, you may find yourself in a solicitor's office for the first time in your life, speaking to someone about really in-depth private issues. And a lot of divorce and financial work can be quite front-loaded. So within a matter of weeks, you could be presented with a divorce petition, a Form E, which is a very lengthy petition, financial document, what is your centre way to complete? And if you have mental health issues or ADHD, perhaps that's going to be really difficult if you're on a tight timescale, set by the other side, perhaps, because a family procedure can sometimes be quite unforgiving if you are dealing with particularly, perhaps aggressive solicitors on the other side. And we're only, you know, we're kind of in a position where we're only as good as the opponent because we have to match them in some way. And if they want documents provided within so many days, we can try and calm down the inflammatory tone of correspondence, et cetera. But ultimately, if they're threatening corporate proceedings, we have to respond to them. It's out of our control if they issue corporate proceedings. And this person has just had their whole world turned upside down in a matter of weeks and it's those people that I think need support more than anyone and therapy and just to help with the shock and I wanted to speak to you about that really and how how you deal with people who come to you because something's happened in their life. Not because they think, oh, I think I need therapy. Actually, something really terrible's happened to them. And you're dealing with someone in a real state. Yeah. So do you see that often where they come to you for the first time and they are just in shock and they've been told that their husband or wife's leaving them? Well, yeah, that happens. Although both divorcing partners are going through this stage, we need to keep in mind that the one who's decided to leave the marriage has had time, yes, to think about this. You know, they've probably gone through all the natural ups and downs. It's gone through the process of indecision and what to do. So they've already thought about it. They've gone through some of the feelings and, you know, it's gotten to a point they might have had an argument and that's it. It's the straw that broke the camel's back. And for them, I'm not saying it's not difficult for them because they too are going to go through all the emotional struggles you know, side of that. But for the, so that's the lever, but the lefty, if we can call that person, the one who's now receiving that news, yes, they're hunched off, you know, Even if they've both had disagreements, they've both maybe even discussed divorce or separation or, you know, maybe we come to an end. Even with those conversations, it still comes as a shock because there's a difference between talking about it and the reality sets in when the leaver actually leaves the house. Yes. And I think that's when it's reality, like I said, sits in and go, wow, this is actually happening. Oh my goodness, how did we get to this point? And that shock and denial, this can't be happening, can't be happening to me. So that phase can actually last a few weeks, probably longer. Sometimes even longer. And also what happens sometimes is that, and I found this, is they have spoken about it. Perhaps one of them, the person's telling the other person the bad news has already left. And then it's left for a while, sometimes weeks, sometimes months and years. And then they get a letter from a solicitor and it reopens it. And it's a new level of shock. It's like, oh, they really want to get in the airs now. And I see people sometimes years after separation and they're just as upset as they tell me. They're as upset as they were before because they've had this letter to say, I'm issuing divorce proceedings. With a nail in the coffin. And they are devastated all over again. All over again. Because maybe they've developed a way to, using that wording, again, compartmentalize it was because if I don't have to, they don't have to deal with it. If they don't have to sign anything, do anything, then it's, well, it's off the table. It's not happening. So it is a denial, isn't it? It's like, it's not what happened is because I'm not doing anything. And of course, when it gets triggered again, it might be a letter. It might be something that's just popped up. And this is where we can go through, you know, and you might've heard the five stages of grief and loss because this can be similar to that. This is when, yes, the sadness is, you know, starts to creep back in again. You might even get some anger around that. I don't know if you've seen clients that way, but when they're stuck in that anger state so this is not fair, this shouldn't be happening. It can last a long time. Yeah, and this is where they might not be particularly compliant or cooperative with whatever legal proceedings might be required. They want to be instructed. It's really hard for us to try and keep them calm and on a level, and we're here to help them legally, and often some days I come home and think, oh, I felt like a social worker today, but it's just part of the job, and you have to be compassionate and considerate to people at any stage of that cycle. Sure. And... And it's something that I feel quite passionate about a client having a circle of support around them because I'm not trained like you are. Everyone can play to different strokes. And if someone has a network around them of, you know, they could have their solicitor, then therapeutic support, psychological support, financial support from a financial advisor, perhaps, and have this network of people that they can trust, it helps things move along a little bit. And I notice a massive difference in clients before they've had any sort of psychological help and after. And it helps me do my job. Yeah, because I can't do what you do. Yeah, absolutely. And it's getting them to... Well, you end up being a very expensive psychologist. It's hard for a kite to know the difference sometimes in... oversharing information. It's relevant, but not that relevant. So spending half an hour on the phone talking about something that happened in the marriage 20 years ago was not going to be relevant to this case now. And they just need an outlet. Well, they do. And particularly, like you said, if their social network or support system is not very good, because you're actually dealing with the divorce. I know it's You're dealing with the legal side. But the thing is, you're the closest thing to that, short of a therapist and anyone else. You're in. So, you know, they might not fully appreciate the importance of maintaining those boundaries, that you're their legal advisor and not their psychologist. But the two are very... can become quite a mesh sometimes. This is where the boundaries become blurred. And this is why it's relevant to be able to have the information to say, we do have a network of therapists or psychologists that can help you. Otherwise, you are not only, cause doing what you do as a family lawyer, your work is already tough. And then on top of that, you've got someone who is continually divulging really personal information about what's going on. Do you deal with people who, and I think the answer is going to be yes, that go through something like this and they are in a state of shock, obviously, and then anger, denial. but this brings up for them previous trauma. And they are, you realize in your therapy that actually this trauma here that from childhood perhaps is now being brought up by this new germ. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. A lot of the time, because this reminds them of what it might've felt or how it did feel once upon a time when someone left them. It might be maybe they're, their parents divorced. So maybe that wasn't particularly amicable perhaps. Maybe that was quite disruptive and maybe there was a lot of arguing going on and lots of emotions and them witnessing a lot of the struggle that their parents might have had. So if that is something that's unresolved or hadn't been addressed, and they just carried on and just, you know, sometimes it plays out in their relationships too. So this might be, the divorce might be indicative of relationship patterns, you know, particularly if, earlier trauma hadn't been addressed you know so what ends up happening potentially is a repeat of certain behaviors that impact relationships um that's an interesting point yeah not always because sometimes it's the fact that they have gone through a particularly bad divorce with their own parents that they've been able to learn from that you know and they can go right okay how do i navigate this differently. That's different because that's about awareness and having that insight. But ordinarily, people can, a lot of the times, just repeat those same patterns. With repeating patterns, can you help couples who are not thinking about divorce but really want to work on their marriage? No, you work with them. Absolutely. Actually, it came up yesterday, did it? Yeah, so yesterday I was seeing someone who, I was seeing the husband on a one-to-one for his ADHD. Yeah, interesting we're talking about that. And, of course, with ADHD, when people are struggling to manage, that can impact relationships in a really big way, and this one clearly did. And so what I did was I invited the wife in. into one of our sessions just to get her input about the impact that he's ADHD. It wasn't about blame and it wasn't about right, wrong. It was about, okay, where are the struggles and where are the pockets for improvement here? Because, yes, like I previously said, they were talking about divorce. Yeah, they were pretty much keeping to themselves in separate bedrooms. Okay. And I had talked about it. But then what we were able to, this is the rewarding part of my job, is okay, so what do you really want to do here, guys? How do you feel about each other? Is there enough invested in this relationship to want to try and do things differently? And they both said, yes. Oh, brilliant. Right, well, that's a great starting point because now you've got buy-in. So if you've got buy-in, then that's going to make all the difference, isn't it? And so then we all came up and all agreed that, I won't go into details, but say Sarah was going to concentrate on this aspect of her problematic behaviour and the husband was going, Arthur, was going to concentrate on this. So they had some, I guess, marital homework to do until we see each other the next time. And that was fully met with determination and a willingness and, yeah, we can do this. We can make this work. Can you do that? Yeah. that came about because we were able to backtrack a bit with each other with the both of them okay well you do that because of this I'm not saying it's right or wrong but we can understand why you reacted this way when you know when Sarah behaves like this that's why Arthur gets defensive okay and you know, Sarah gets defensive when Arthur does that, you know, so yeah, to each other. Exactly. And so just having that open conversation about those conversations without someone telling, yeah, might be the problem. So what we're able to do is come up with a very safe, and boundary conversation of action. Yeah. And so, yeah, I do that. And that works, can work really well. Of course, not everyone's the same. No, we will see people. We don't see couples together. Obviously, we're not meant to do that. We see individuals who are thinking or we speak to them about getting divorced. And one of the things we have to tell the court when we issue divorce proceedings is have we spoken to them about marriage? Gagnon's counsel can you pick yes or no? And so we always say to, if anyone's on the fence about if they've not already left or there's not going to be trauma within the relationship and they're a bit on the fence about whether to separate, we will send them off to someone like you to have some therapeutic support and counseling through this problem. And most of the time, because they're not actually committed to getting divorced, we don't hear back from them, which is great. Hopefully stay together. And so we do see people that are really confused whether they want a divorce or not. And that's a shock because you've already made, it's a shock to us because they've made an appointment with the solicitor. So you think they've made their mind up about it. Of course not, not necessarily. We've gone so far down the process. We've even been in court proceedings and the couple have reconciled. And that happens as well. And you can reconcile at any point. You can reconcile at any point. But in terms of the technical side of it, you can stay all... reverse or withdraw your divorce proceedings any point until that final divorce order at any point. So you can get really far down the line and actually decide, let's try it out. So how far down the line is that in terms of time? So divorce itself can take four to six months on a paper procedure. But if you're in financial proceedings, that's dragged out for quite a long time. It could be that you've been in proceedings for years. And we did have that. We did have that. I remember it was about 10 years ago. We were right at the end and it was a very, very acrimonious farming divorce. And the couple reconciled right at the worst minute. And we were completely shocked. From a psychologist point of view, I'm kind of going, oh, I wonder what happened here. What the circumstances were. I think he begged to have her back and she went back. Wow. And that's the end of it. I mean, and just as long as we provide people with the right tools and support, I always feel that we've done our job. Because like I say, I can't give them that support that you can give and you can't give the legal advice I can give. So absolutely, it's nice to be able to work with other local professionals as much as possible. We're all part of that team, isn't it? It is. So maybe we could talk now a little bit about children. I know you don't work directly with children, but... we help people who are separating or have separated try and navigate arrangements for their children and sometimes it's something they can have a kitchen table discussion and that is the best way because you are the best people to know what's in the best interest of your own children, no one else. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. We obviously see the worst cases because otherwise they wouldn't need a solicitor. but we like to try and explore mediation with divorce and finances as well, but talk about parenting plans and putting things in place, you know, without having to think about court. Do you help people navigate together or individually child arrangements and parenting plans? It's more about not so much the parenting plans. I don't do a lot of that, but I certainly, when we're having the conversation about separation and divorce and there are concerns about the children, I always say, Less is more. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, less is more. Of course, depending on the age, you know, I mean, a five-year-old or a six-year-old or an eight-year-old or a ten-year-old, okay, your adult children, you'd be taking them years, yeah, and they can find it hard for different reasons. But in terms of, I'm thinking, you know, your situation where you've got young children. Like primary school age. Yeah, you know, just using simple age-appropriate language It's really critical here that it's not about judging or criticising the other parent because that's a no-no. Yeah. It's just a no-no. At the end of the day, this is about two people who can't live together anymore. Yeah. I don't need to know. And they don't need to know why. At some point, maybe along the line, that event might reveal itself. That's a separate matter. But right now... less is more so using age-appropriate language not criticizing or judging the other person because what is a seven or eight year old going to understand they don't have the sophisticated thinking systems of an adult he's like so all they know is they love mummy and daddy and why are mummy and daddy not together and uh what does this mean for me you know so yeah and so really communicating that, you know, mummy and daddy still love you. This has got nothing to do with you. This is something that mummy and daddy need to do. Mummy and daddy still care for each other. Let's put that one in because the reason why divorce is so emotionally difficult is because you once loved this person or maybe still do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:34

You

SPEAKER_00: 25:35

know, you might not be in love with them. Well, sometimes they are, especially if one person wants out and one person still wants in. But basically there's still a level of care there, you know, despite the disagreements. And it's important that the child understands that, that whilst mummy and daddy still care for each other, they can't live together. And what this means is that you all have to make separate living arrangements, you know, and sometimes they can get excited about that because it means getting a new bedroom or, of course, that's the way they're going to understand that. And that's okay. That's okay for now. But what's important is especially when it comes to parenting plans and seeing the children separately, that there is a coming together and the children are witnessing a coming together of the parents. Promoting each other's care. Absolutely. And to go, okay, when are you off going to go? When are you seeing daddy? And when are you seeing mommy? And because we don't want to put children in a situation where they have to choose choose sides. Yeah. And it's just going to be awful. That's going to impact them growing up as well. So we want to really try and make it as seamless as possible. It's going to be hard and they will see moments when, you know, mum and dad are having a private cry and, you know, those things are normal and that's okay. When they see that, it's good. Look, mum is just having a cry, you know, it's okay. Sometimes we're just missing, missing daddy, you know, and And I know that it can sound confusing, but as long as you're very clear that whilst they care for each other and they love the child, it's just become difficult in that way and that they need to live apart. And it's okay that we say that. Yeah. One thing, some of the very experienced family judges actually in Manchester who sit on these types of cases, and obviously to get to that point, things have not been easier. But I always remember... One judge, I used to be in court quite a lot when I was first qualified because legal aid was still available. So solicitors were doing a lot of their own hearings and that was the norm. And I was in court nearly every day. And I remember this one judge in Manchester who, and I won't name names, who always said at the end of the case, both parents and he spoke to them directly he always said just remember one day you used to love each other and you love these children every time we had a year every hearing doesn't matter what stage totally and it just grew on together a bit and and it was yeah the judge that settled those cases and it would often settle without the need for a final hearing but as he used to face things like that and little snippets and nuggets of information it really helped The tarot. It doesn't have to be difficult. No, it's simple. Yeah, it doesn't have to be difficult. It gets difficult. It's what you make of the situation. We've always got choices. And let's face it, no one ever gets married to get divorced. I know, I know. Yeah. You don't have to be madly in love with them, obviously, because you're divorced. You're separating, obviously. It's obvious. But at the same time, there's got to be, in most situations, there's a degree of care. It's just a balancing act. And you are dependent on your ex-spouse, so to speak, to want to co-parent with you. And that's one of the hardest things when you're acting for someone. And you'll see this, that You believe, I believe I'm dealing with the person who's been reasonable. And actually it's the other person that's stopping it. All their solicitors got in the way and has been quite hostile and has really damaged relations. Well, that's where it can be difficult, you know, for the person who is having to deal with the disruptive ex-partner who, you know, it's about some of my work might involve equipping them with the confidence that Yeah, and assertiveness to speak up and maintain boundaries to say, okay, I see what you're doing or I don't like this. Yeah, it's about not reacting because if a moment you allow the ego to enter the situation, you've got ego on ego, then you're not, yeah, then it's on for young and old, you know, and this is, and if you've got kids involved, you know, it just... This makes it more difficult. So the children have nothing to do with this. They're completely innocent. So we need to safeguard that. We need to protect it. And let's face it, if you've got two people who are divorcing, they will always have a relationship simply because they share children. So you decide what kind of relationship you want, given that You both dearly love your children. Your children are your world. So why not put them first in this instance and think about, okay, despite our differences, let's work together. Yes. I don't agree with why you're leaving me and I don't agree with what you did and da-da-da. Regardless of that, what matters is the children. Exactly. Because that's what you've got in common. Yes. Sets the tone for them. Yeah. From the initial separation right through to those children. Yeah, adults and... their children being around and, you know, even at that point grandparents not talking. Absolutely. I mean, I hear now as, I mean, when adults come to see me who talk to me about their parents divorcing when they were young, it's like, oh, yeah, my parents... you know, got on better after the divorce. They were like friends, obviously, just couldn't link together. But, you know, and the divorce proceedings were smooth and we didn't get to see any of the ugly side of things. And this is great because, you know, that person might have been eight or nine when their parents divorced. And now as an adult in their 30s or 40s, they can talk about the positive side of it. I think, wow, this is, we need more of this. You know, the other alternative could be quite Traumatic. Yeah. For their own relationship. Yeah. It is a cycle, isn't it? Between in families. Yeah. And you must see second or third. Well, this is this issue. It's what we call ancestral patterns, you know, and how these patterns of behavior just keep repeating themselves. And so it is an issue unless you actually press the pause button and go, right, okay. I don't have to go that way. Yeah. I can go another way, you know, and break those ancestral patterns. And not just with relationships, but it's about male roles and female roles and what typically happens and how we've been socialised and throwing cultural beliefs and, oh, that's just another, it's about casting oneself. Yeah. You were a generation ago and more people are reaching out for help, I feel, anyway. Yeah, overall, and it was lots of work to be done, but I feel that more people are reaching out, girl, either in relationships or perhaps in a co-parenting situation and want to break the cycle. So that was really positive that we've served more of. Great. Absolutely. So I think we've covered quite a lot there. Is there anything else that you want to ask or talk about? Just from a self-care point of view, I think it's important to recognise and appreciate that separating and divorcing is a psychologically, emotionally a difficult thing to do, even in the best of times. So really important, and I often speak to my clients about the importance of self-care. And when I say self-care, that includes a lot of different things. I'm sure we did a blog on this, actually, a while ago, and it was far-reaching, but you probably touched on things we touched on. Oh, right, okay, yeah, yeah. Self-care in terms of even looking after yourself financially. Easy like that. Yeah, or getting a financial advisor, you know, as under my tip. Yeah, or maybe a nutritionist if you guys, you know. So self-care includes having a regular sleep routine. There are highly tumultuous times here. You might be finding you're staying up late and then struggling to get up in the morning. Really important that you maintain a normal routine. So go to bed at a normal time, getting up at the usual time. Hydration. I know these are very simple things, but you'd be amazed when people forget to drink water. Yeah, or even forget to eat, you know, because so many things are happening around them. You know, they're having to get back to you or get back to the ex or, you know, all these appointments. Yeah, or look for a new apartment or look for new schools for their children. There's a lot to do. So really important that you maintain your self-care. So that includes, you know, regular sleep routine, Hydration, diet, exercise, huge. I mean, who doesn't know that there's a relationship between exercise and mental health? We all know this, and it works. So even if you're not into the whole gym scene, even just going for walks, making sure you're getting some fresh air, or there might be a hobby or an interest, or you might decide to take up a Spanish class. Who cares? Anything that's good for you. Whatever feeling good... looks like, do. Maybe five, 10 minutes a day journaling. Maybe even writing a grateful list. What are you grateful for? Yes, I understand you're still divorcing, but you're grateful for your children. You're grateful for other family members, your friends, your job. What's positive? What's really going well in your life that's worth celebrating? I know it's hard, but There's still a life to live even whilst you're separating and divorcing. You still got a life to live. Exactly. Don't forget that. Yeah. So I think that's really important. Knowing your personal rights, things like we all have 25, the right to live happily, the right to say no. Yeah. And that might be particularly important when it comes to a very demanding ex-partner. Completely. Yeah. Or the right to say, I don't know, or the right to express your thoughts and feelings.

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Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:31

So we all have rights, but because of our experiences and our conditioning and our own narrative, if everyone did that, it would be, world would be a better place, wouldn't it? And I think more marriages would survive if you're at number one third. Exactly. And see, this is the thing people confuse and I get clients who say this to me. They say, but isn't looking after me selfish? No, it's helping the rest of your family. No, because the more you look after you, the more you've got to give. The less you give to yourself, the less you've got to give. Selfish is when, nearly swore then, selfish is when you don't care about anyone else and all you care about is yourself. Yeah, that's different, right? Okay, being, looking after yourself means, and especially if you're the type of person that's very generous with their time and energy, And if giving is so important to you, well, even more important why you need to keep that tank full. A bit like petrol in the car. You need to keep topping up. Otherwise, the car's going to say, can't take you anywhere. Can't do anything. Sorry, it's a shutdown. I know you want to go somewhere. I know you want to do something, but you can't because you haven't looked after me. You haven't put petrol in the tank. You haven't put time and energy in the tank. And being around positive people too. Don't be around people who bring you down. Yes, I still probably. But look, as can naturally happen, and I'm sure you've heard of this, people then, family and friends start taking sides, don't they? You know, and that can happen. But that's okay. You don't have to be around people that bring you down that way. Be around positive people, people who inspire you, who motivate you, who listen without judgment. Because the last thing you need is someone to judge you. That's probably a good note to end on, self-care. Probably the most important thing when you're going through anything traumatic. And in any event. There's also... In any event. Yeah, meditation and breathing and... Absolutely. All of those things that therapists can help as well in terms of coming up with a self-care plan. Of course, big thing too, really big thing before we go is to monitor social media exposure. Absolutely. Especially when... When you're going through those emotional turmoils, yeah. My advice to clients is remove the app. Don't need to necessarily remove yourself, but just remove the app to stop you from automatically going on Instagram feed or LinkedIn to see what they're up to. Because essentially that's what it's all, not just seeing what they're up to, it gets a bit of, there's a competition in terms of well I'm out with the kids today I've taken them on an excellent day out and the next day he'll do the same and it's like a war every day on competition or things yeah yeah that needs to stop that feeds into lots of jealousy and feeling not worthy and it's just the better the sooner those apps are off your phone the better selfie is really important it is thanks so much for coming in Helen see you next time see you later bye bye thank you everyone for listening and we hope you found today's podcast in informative and useful. If you'd like to reach out to Helen or the family team here at Myerson, please see our contact details in the description.