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Narcissism In Relationships: Recognising the Signs & Reclaiming Your Power

• Season 1 • Episode 4

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In this episode of MyFamily Pod, host Jane Tenquist welcomes Karen Blumenfeld, psychotherapist and co-founder of Hale Therapy Centre, to discuss one of the most complex and misunderstood issues in modern relationships: narcissism and coercive control.

As a divorce solicitor, Jane frequently encounters cases where one partner accuses the other of narcissistic behaviour or coercive control. But what do these terms really mean? How do they manifest in relationships? And how can individuals identify and navigate these dynamics?

Karen provides deep psychological insight into the spectrum of narcissism, from healthy self-esteem to narcissistic personality disorder, and explains the power imbalances, gaslighting, and emotional manipulation that often accompany coercive control. Together, Jane and Karen explore:

✔️ What narcissism really is – beyond the buzzword

 ✔️ How narcissistic traits impact relationships

 ✔️ Recognising coercive control and its effects

 ✔️ The emotional toll of being in a narcissistic relationship

 ✔️ How individuals can reclaim their sense of self

 ✔️ Why setting boundaries is crucial – and how to do it

 ✔️ How legal and therapeutic support can help victims regain control

If you or someone you know is struggling with an unhealthy relationship, this episode offers expert guidance and practical steps to help navigate these challenging situations.

Listen now and take the first step towards understanding and empowerment.

Find out more here: https://www.myerson.co.uk/personal/family-law

For more resources and support, you can also reach out to Karen at Hale Village Therapy Centre here: https://www.haletherapy.co.uk/karen-blumenfeld/

Stay tuned for more episodes of MyFamily Pod, where we tackle the issues that matter most to families. Don’t forget to subscribe and follow us on social media for updates!

LinkedIn: Myerson Solicitors 

Instagram: @Myerson.Solicitors 

Website: www.myerson.co.uk/ 

UNKNOWN:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, my name is Jane Tenquist and welcome to my family podcast. Today, our guest is Karen Blumenfeld, who is the co-founder of Hale Therapy Centre and is a psychotherapist. She sees couples in relationship counselling and she also sees individuals for personal therapy. Today, the topic of the podcast is therapy. narcissism and coercive control and helps that Karen can provide couples and individuals who believe that those issues are affecting their relationship and I will talk about those themes that I encounter as a divorce solicitor. Hello Karen, welcome. Today we have Karen Blumenfeld who is the co-founder of Hale Village Therapy Centre. She's a very dear friend of mine too. Thank you Jane. Quite often as a divorce lawyer I come across people who complain that their spouse is a narcissist or that they've been in a coercive, contriving relationship. And it seems to be a common theme running through many contemporary divorces and I was wondering whether you also have people coming to see you as a psychotherapist for counselling either as couples or private individuals to talk about the issues that they have within their marriages caused by either narcissism or coercive control I was wondering whether there is such a thing as narcissism Good question. Okay, it's a very casually banded about word now to describe a whole set of characteristics, most of which are negative. In fact, one of usually which are considered negative. So it's the name given to certain personality traits and stems originally from the myth, the Greek myth, Narcissus, who falls in love with his reflection. It was a he, but it could be a she. and that was his echo. And so essentially he fell in love with his own reflection and it's come to mean an excessive focus on oneself at the exclusion of others and often at the expense of others. So the focus is self and that person comes across as selfish, demanding, entitled and generally difficult to live with. I suppose we can all be narcissists to a certain extent. Don't you think? So there's a bit really important actually in this bit.

UNKNOWN:

So...

SPEAKER_00:

There is a spectrum. I'm going with my hands in a big horizontal line from completely healthy narcissist, which I'll explain, to what we would call narcissistic personality disorder, which has a set of about nine factors diagnostically. And if you have seven of those, you will possibly have this disorder. But most people we meet have narcissistic traits. So I'm not really talking about very extreme people who you'd never see in therapy.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

but you might get them as your clients, which maybe will come to you later. So healthy narcissism really very basically means the capacity to say no or yes. authentically so not to be coerced or persuaded or to please somebody but to say yes i would like to do that or no i can't do that so that's a real significant example of healthy narcissism so we might call it a secure sense of self difficult thing to describe what a self is it's a sort of intuitive instinctive grounding in self that No, I can't do that. So even on a very, very simple level, we arranged for me to come in at 11.30. I realised that was going to be tight for me. I realised that was going to be tight for me. I asked you whether we can do it at 12. You don't take offence or have a strop because I'm not doing what you want. You said, yeah, sure. Maybe you had to move something to adjust to my time. But we did that together. So that is a healthy thing. process so largely what we experience when we meet somebody is a sense of entitlement and we see the display of arrogant or dismissive behaviors dismissing and disregarding the rules that apply to others parking parking where there there's no parking because they have a big big extensive car they think doesn't matter i can pay the parking fine the fact that the car is on a double yellow line on the bend is not important to that person. His or her need to be quick and get into that shot quickly or out is the most important thing. There are different types of narcissistic presentation. So we kind of know we're in the process of some narcissistic types because we can feel scared, nervous, apprehensive. I know when I'm about to see a particular kind of client, and it can be female or male. I feel I have to put a seatbelt on and a bit of a hard hat and breathe and really ground myself because as easy as that person has come to me because they think I'm great, I can be devalued. So that's one very essential ingredient of what happens in these relationships, that the narcissistically orientated person seduces or can entrap. physically seduced or psychologically seduced, emotionally seduced, with compliments and chattery. So bloodbombing is taught nowadays, romantically. And so that person's drawn in, it feels amazing. And echoes are attracted to narcissists. I mean, this is a broad brushstroke here, but there are certain... types of personality who are attracted to a narcissistic type of person yeah and so there's a very unhealthy co-dependence that might develop um these people called echoes they called them echoes yeah yeah in other words you mirror that person, provided you're mirroring that person perfectly. It's all brilliant, it's all amazing. But as soon as you say no, so you start, that person begins to get some agency. Maybe they've had enough of this, or enough of the person's behavior. As soon as that person starts to say no, then as quickly as, say, you're a love bomb, they can be devalued. And you know that as a solicitor, a lawyer, and probably as a therapist, that you can feel that shift If you challenge. But my job is to challenge. And to some extent yours is as well. They're paying you for a service and they're paying me for a service. I think this excessive focus on self is the thing that mainly defines how we might see that presentation. So by sense of entitlement, it shows they could disregard a person's feelings and feel sort of a lack of empathy. Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of the classic... presentations I've seen in campus therapy is seeing one person, sometimes each of them doing it, completely dismissing or disregarding what it must be, what it must feel like to be the other person. So in psychotherapy, we call it a theory of mind, the idea that there are two minds in the room, your mind, Jane, and my mind, Karen. I know I'm not you, you are not me, and we could disagree, and hopefully, because we like each other anyway, have not the argument, and we'd be really good together, and actually deepen the friendship. And the people can do that in marriages if they can deepen their understanding and listen with open ears. then there will be a lot fewer breakups. But a narcissistic person cannot or will not or chooses not to do that. It's like if you draw a big circle, in that circle is just the narcissistic person. Everybody else is a projected tool, an object, a player. to move around on a chessboard. Whereas with people who are not like that, there are two balloons next to each other.

SPEAKER_01:

They're

SPEAKER_00:

separate. There's interdependence and inter-relativity. But with a narcissist, there's only his or her world. And I'm using my hands to describe it. I'm making circles with my hands, balloons. So it's very challenging to live with someone like that because in a sense, you can't have a true relationship with somebody who doesn't actually acknowledge your existence as a separate entity. So I suppose true narcissists don't often end up in counseling. They don't. Because they don't. Oh, absolutely not. It's quite challenging for them to actually self-reflect and think that they're wrong. Absolutely. That would make them feel uncomfortable. Yeah. I mean, in reality, somebody only kind of really... sharp-handed narcissist and being personality disordering. So these are diagnostic criteria, criteria for personality disorder. And most people will have, if they are highly narcissistic, will have maybe at least five of these. There are some people who have all of them. So here are the nine points. Grandiosis of self-importance, exaggerated achievements, and expects to be recognised as superior in commensurate with actual achievements. I think that's really important. So they're boastful, they overstate, they overpromise. Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance or ideal love. So lots of imaginings of who they could be, who they are, who they would love to be with. A belief that they're special and unique and should associate with other people. such special or beautiful people so the kind of arm candy bit bit making sure your husband or wife is beautiful looks good on your arm requires excessive admiration in bracket i might get that if i had a gorgeous woman man on my arm says entitlement which we've talked about the rules that apply to others don't apply to me expects automatic compliance with wishes or expectations and imperious with the people that they assume to be subordinate. So it could be a waiter. You know, that horrible behavior you see sometimes. In restaurants. In restaurants. It's fine to complain about crap food.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's healthy narcissism. Actually, it's not even narcissism, actually. That's just simply... Good practice, you know, but it's an approach to the person that's horrible. Okay, so number six, interpersonally exploitative, takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends. So that's the gaslighting, which we'll talk about a bit later comes in. So that person will often present as loving and charming, but straddled by the need to collect acolytes and worshippers. So adoration, aberration. I mean, that's true of world leaders, political party leaders, common CEOs, surgeons, you know, people who... They're going to see a lot of narcissists. Absolutely, absolutely. They're not all narcissists, that's not fair. But there is going to be a strong, even if it's a healthy, sense of narcissism in those people. It might surprise you to know that at the bottom, at the inside of the narcissistic person, is very low self-esteem.

SPEAKER_01:

A

SPEAKER_00:

bit like Humpty Dumpty, sat on a wall, had a great fall, all his eggshell broke. So they're an eggshell thing. It doesn't seem like it. That's not how they present. But they're very, very sensitive to criticism. That's the other thing. If you're living with somebody who cannot take criticism, and I hear it in my practice when I work with couples, you can feel it, the shame. And I encourage in my practice couples just to kind of stay with being curious and seeing if they can move out of blame and shame. But it's very painful. The narcissist has a lot of pain. That's not to say we can excuse the behaviour, but that's what's going on. So that very low self-esteem is enacted by a bottomless need for affirmation of worship. And the other person in the relationship often feels lost, invisible, not heard, dehumanised and reduced. I get quite a lot of those clients who don't know what's going on. They actually feel like, is it me? Is it him? Maybe I don't work hard enough. If I tried harder, I don't know how to please her or him. Big one here, which you mentioned earlier, Jane, lacks genuine empathy. This is number seven. So can perform, in my view, could perform it or wear it as a mask. I'm a great guy, girl. I really care about you. But is unwilling or finds it difficult to recognize or identify with the desires of feelings, subjective experiences, and these and others are different from his or her own. That's a performance. So many narcissists say, I'm very empathic, but you kind of feel like it's not real, and not really. A really good example of that is actually women who say to me, you know, he comes home and he does this big performance in front of the kids. I love you, lovely to see you. And then as soon as they're out the door, he says, why haven't you tied it up? My lipstick's there. I call it Mr. Mr. Bit. You know, you missed a bit of the painting on the ceiling you were meant to do. So it's performance. You know, like the CEO who's everybody's adored boss and then comes home and kicks the dog or his wife physically or mentally. And she might do it too. Yeah. So number eight is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her. And number nine, obviously, shows arrogant, haughty or arrogant behaviours or attitudes. So it's quite an array. And in terms of psychiatric diagnosis, if somebody had five or more of those, even just five, they would be considered as having some degree of narcissistic personality.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And so that pulls on to my next question, which is, what sort of problems and bishubs come up in relationships where one person's a narcissist or maybe two, they both have an element of narcissism? Well, yeah, I mean, you have got... What sort of issues? Yeah. Often it's that the person who presents to me is living with somebody whose behaviour they say is impossible. He shouts, he's... or she... I'm going to say a he because it is more common, but it's not a diagnosis that is applicable just to men. But we'll say he, and I hope nobody is going to shout at me for that. So he's demanding. He's selfish. He does what he wants. He doesn't listen to me. I feel invisible. I feel invisible. I feel invisible. That's awful what people say. I don't feel I exist. My opinions don't count. I ask him if he will please do this with the children with me. He won't. He does it this way. And then he blames me. I think a lot of, one of the centers is that the person who is not on the narcissistic spectrum, but may have a kind of unstable personality, which is often a match a kind of echo often i say to kind of something like can you tell me why you don't challenge that behavior i mean i say in some way well i'm scared to or there's no point or he'll just have a or she and it's just more men women actually well she'll walk out she'll cry or in extreme circumstances um trying to kill herself so people get manipulated and It's a sort of control to stick around. And I suppose it's boundaries, isn't it? Totally boundaries, yeah. If you're in a relationship where you feel alone and you're not being cared or listened to, it's sort of setting boundaries about... How you want to be treated and how you treat... Absolutely. But to do that, Jane, you say it and I say it, and maybe Emma in the room who's doing the recording will say it. Well, I can do that. I can do that because you can do that, Jane. Because I think we have a good enough sense of ourself of what we're entitled to in a relationship. Everyone's entitled to mutual respect, kind of the charter of... human rights would say that you know so creating boundaries for someone who doesn't know how to do that is quite difficult and often they're the people that i see in

SPEAKER_01:

therapy

SPEAKER_00:

they don't know how to do it they're frightened of saying now often that's historical from their own upbringing blah blah blah but that is very very important that if you're going to if you're going to live with somebody with these characteristics you have to be able to find your no And that sometimes is the value that they may get from therapy. I need to find my no, which means putting on your big girls' pants and big seatbelt and a hard hat and facing up. It's a bit like the playground bully. It's bullying behaviour. Yeah. But I suppose quite often narcissists can be quite charming. Oh, totally. And provide a very, very loving, especially at the beginning. Yes, and you can end up being very confused in a relationship like that because you're sort of enveloped in love and gifts and exciting things to do and then suddenly You're being criticised and you don't know where you are. Absolutely. Being told, well, no, I didn't do that. It's your fault. You did that. Yes. That's called gaslighting. So that's a very common thing that happens. And you're absolutely right about confusion. That is a lot of what people come to therapy with, which is, I don't quite know why I'm here. but it's to do with my marriage, and I do feel really confused. My husband is so amazing. Wow. Sometimes. And all the things you've said quickly cycle between idealising me and bringing me gifts. Not that I personally as Karen believe that bringing gifts is particularly a sign of love, it's just a sign of being able to afford it. Unless it's something very modest, like maybe a bunch of daffodils is nice, you know, you don't need diamond rings. It may be revealed when I talk to a person who comes to see me that they're in a relationship with a narcissist that's a male or a female because a consistent story is but he or she can be so amazing you know so kind so loving and then very quickly as soon as i do something he or she doesn't like they are mean they're nasty they're spiteful they threaten me I mean, that could be with actual violence or threatening to take the kids away from me. I have so many women clients who have said, I can't leave my husband because I'm frightened of what he will do. I always say, what do you think he can do? You know, you have the law on your side. I always... say that. I say, you'll hide money. I say, I know solicitors,

SPEAKER_01:

you

SPEAKER_00:

and others, who they won't hide money. It might be difficult to track it down, but they can't hide money. I think when you're in a long relationship and maybe you've grown up together and that person becomes the oracle really as to your world view. He interprets the world around you and he's got All these friends that are his, really, because he's approved of these relationships. And sometimes it's very difficult for a person who's married to somebody like that to sort of have a proper idea of their own self and what's better and worse when they're in it. such a relationship yeah and my job is also to really help people to take responsibility for their part you know people choose to stay in relationships and I don't personally have a value of whether they should or they shouldn't it's not my it's not my role but I think it's important that each partner including the partner I do occasionally get people who are narcissistic I mean I do it's just they don't stay in therapy very long they get a little bit of what they need they don't want to go very deep and as soon as I or a another colleague maybe presses on a raw edge that activates shame they basically disappear they don't want to continue so No true narcissist will stay in therapy for a long time, that's for sure. So anyone who suddenly says to me, I'm worried I'm a narcissist who's been in therapy with me for two years, I say, that really isn't true. You've got some components, so do I. So we will all have some, but we're not a narcissist. Sometimes people say to me, a good thing about a narcissist is that they are not great at taking responsibility for things and when you confront them and say well you did that and they say no I didn't you did it yes you know they're always right and you're always wrong I don't know whether that's an element yeah that now has a become a rather frequently used term, which is gaslighting. So shall I just explain what that is? Because people use it. Gaslighting, as we understand it, is when a partner denies his responsibility for something. It could be really small. like putting out the rubbish and denies that it was his job and says, no, that was you. No, you said you'd do it. You always do this to me. You always, this is the narcissist. You always blame him. The other person is saying, no, I'm not, but this was your responsibility. But why do you do all that? Blah, blah, blah. So there's a constant feeling of like you've been captured by the KGB or something and spun around. You don't know where you are. Does that explain gaslighting enough to you?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

because a lot of people come in and say, I've been reading about gaslighting, I think my husband gaslights me, or my wife gaslights me. But this is where this secure sense of self comes in, which is what I try and help people with. Is it possible to assist people in narcissistic relationships to find their best self? Good question, really good question. Sometimes. Pardon? Um... And what happens is they do, they grow and they get more aware, but then they have an issue, what do I do? Which is, well, you have a choice. You can stay in the relationship and do nothing. You can stay in the relationship and confront, which would be a great option if you also love this person. You know, this person is great sometimes, got a nice life together, you've got kids. Well, I don't think I could do that. Or you leave. Well, I don't think I can do that either. So it's quite tricky work. It's a long-term world. I suppose an analysis of what's going on then. Yeah. could sometimes help people to recognise when that idea is... Yes, yes. I can't demonstrate it because we're on a voice podcast, but I do some exercises, actual physical things, using a soft toy, which I chuck at the person, or they chuck back, which represents the thought or the accusation that the narcissist person is making. And I encourage that person to throw that soft toy back at me with... That is not true. I will not tolerate you talking to me in that way. Now, to many people, that is so frightening to say, because you're saying, I, as in the person who's in a relationship with you, will not tolerate this saying. I won't tolerate this saying. People do need to find a voice. And it's not just women, it's men too, who always say, difficult women. Female narcissists tend to display a little bit differently, but that can often be a total preoccupation with the body. You know, controlling food intake, not attention to, you know, face and body representations. I mean, that's very common in society anyway. Apart from working with individuals about finding their own sense of self and placing healthy boundaries and being able to say no, I'd prefer if you did something differently and this is what I would like to happen. I have to say, though, If you say, I prefer, that's not going to cut it. No. You know, you have to be really explicit. Like, I want, I need, this is what it's like for me being with you. I would like you to be curious about what happens for me when you do this. I mean, sometimes it works. It depends on the person. Sometimes it is just not accepted. And often, one of the reasons why people are scared of coming to seek the advice of you, Jane, as head of family law, or adolescents or other lawyers is because they have been told they're mad.

SPEAKER_01:

They're

SPEAKER_00:

frightened of losing their children. I have been told that so many times. I've said, I will write you a document, if need be, that you are not mad. Yeah. He says, I'm an unfit mother. All kinds of stuff. You know this. Very, very abusive. And so quite often I'll speak to people who explain, for example, how they were on their finances during the marriage and that their husband has been very controlling about finances. And that may be for very... for reasons. He may have been the only one to go out to work and the woman may have been at home. Very joint choices. But then she won't have any knowledge about any of the bills or how much it's cost. Or she may have to ask for money. Have sleep money and be deliberately left out of any ability to pay for things herself. I think that's normal because that's how her marriage has always been. And she probably doesn't speak... frankly to friends if she has any and it's only when we have a discussion about that that she realises that actually she's been in a very sort of controlling relationship and it's not normal not to have access to money and to be able to find I mean by that I don't mean that we all all entitled to yeah lots of money yeah you should be able to fund things without having to ask you know people sometimes come to to us as to course lawyers to explain about what their life is like but they don't have any realization that actually their experience is not a normal experience it's it's it's rather odd but they've never ever had a conversation with anyone before yeah about it and they have yeah they have a really poor sense of self i absolutely quite quite often and they're quite isolated yes they have a lack of sense of entitlement yeah yeah i i sometimes say to clients or females particularly hey you need to bring out your diva and they laugh but i say no i mean it you know you need to find a diva even a little bit of a deeper inside. You can begin to say, no, I don't like it this way anymore. It's a really good example of what you've just said, Jane, about how to begin to create a different kind of boundary,

SPEAKER_01:

which

SPEAKER_00:

is to push back and to say, I've been reflecting that I want to be more involved in our finances. Of course, that may well be kicked back in your face in some and twisted as to make you what you don't trust me I never thought you didn't. We've always died this way. We've always died this way. What's the most who you've been talking to? Sometimes those people don't say they're coming to therapy either.

SPEAKER_01:

Or

SPEAKER_00:

if they do, they'll find a way of totally discounting the therapist, of course. Yes. What's it like for you? When relationships break down and they've decided that actually the way that they've been feeling is because... of the personality traits of their partner that they find really quite insurmountably difficult to tolerate anymore. Because I think sometimes when we age, it becomes more difficult to tolerate things that perhaps are true. We become different people sometimes, don't we? but when people come to us and their relationship has broken down firstly I think sometimes we notice it's really difficult to leave

SPEAKER_01:

a

SPEAKER_00:

marriage when you've been with a narcissist or somebody who's been very controlling and you know sometimes instruct you and then they'll reconcile with her husband and then maybe two years later come back and say well it didn't work out I'm going to instruct you again and that's the tension and to-ing and fro-ing and I think sometimes the narcissist can't bear to be left. And they'll do anything to seduce the person back. Seduce probably is not the wrong word. Well, it is ties the person back. Then it just becomes too hard and just really difficult to leave a person who's being kind and nice, especially in that moment. Yeah, it's very, very, very hard. And those people, I mean, that's codependency you're talking about. So the partner who is not... who we may not categorize as the narcissist, actually may have narcissistic qualities of their own. In other words, they may be kind of hanging on the coattails as the other partless narcissist, if you like, you know, greatness by proxy or something. My job is to help people to become self-aware of their part in the codependency and then to decide authentically whether they want to stay with that or not. Because of course, you know, we have choices. I always say to people, you know, Have you got a brain injury? No. Have you been diagnosed with psychosis? No, no, no. Well, then you have A to C. Oh, no, yeah, cool. Make your own mind up. Make your own mind up, yeah. So you're talking about that game of I hate you, don't leave me. Yes. That partners can't do. And it brings us back to what you alluded to earlier, or you stated, which is the fear of abandonment. But both parties will have that fear of abandonment. Otherwise, it would be easier to leave.

UNKNOWN:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Both parties are frightened of what will happen. The narcissist will lose his echo, his adoring one,

SPEAKER_01:

and

SPEAKER_00:

the adoring one... The perception of what people think. Absolutely, all of that's really important. And the echo who has put him or herself in this passive position will... start from a position of helplessness I mean I have said people people and they might have said it too I don't know how I'd cope I don't know what to do I don't know what the future looks like well yeah true nobody does yeah nobody knows what the future looks like yeah actually but you're absolutely right it's very very difficult to untangle that and quite often we have Increasing situations of stalking and bugging people either in the house or your CCTV cameras, trackers in cars, bugging telephones, cameras in bedrooms, in the house, so that when the passers-by are at the house, they can find out what's going on. Hacking into a computer, either private or emails or rifling through private documents to locate, you know, blown boundaries. You know, this is my house, everything in it's mine and there's no respect. Sometimes it can creep into personal violence and the police are involved or the police are called as a threat. Yes. to, yeah, so you do this to me, I'm going to call the police, and then you end up in a cell overnight. Come across that, and threaten to take away the children, or do. Take possessions away, cars away without any explanation. Or leave you without money, without any access to money. So that you're forced to make an application to the court for financial assistance, really. Those are sorts of issues that we have. And it's very frightening for somebody who may have given up their career. Those are very successful men and they haven't worked for ages. And then it's the prospect of, what can I do with the rest of my life in terms of, can I get some qualifications or find a job I haven't worked for years?

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And they need lots of support with that sort of journey in terms of not just therapy, but helping them with their finances as well. And being a sole parent is quite difficult when you're still parenting with a narcissist, if you're being criticized about parenting skills constantly, which must be very, very difficult. And quite often we end up in court. Yes. in relation to contested children applications or financial applications, because there's that sort of, there's one person who just wants to win at all costs, regardless of whether there are children involved in welfare, which is secondary to the whole raison d'etre of a narcissist who just thinks about self, really. What you've been describing... That is a very common thing that women do who have some narcissistic traits or more than that, that they will threaten To take the children away. And that's why, I mean, you may correct me on this if I'm wrong, because I may well be wrong, that I think most divorces are instigated by women. Yes. And that's because men are frightened of losing their children. And I know that because of the amount of men I see. Well, I don't want to leave her because she won't let me see the kids. I say again, but you have the law to protect you. The law doesn't protect men. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I don't think there's any evidence for that. No, I think the law is there to protect men. It's just that the court takes a huge amount of time to list even the furthest hearing. And so this is a situation where we have a mother with the children who's been quite difficult, slowing time with dad. And dad thinks... If I argue with her about this, she's just going to make it worse. Exactly. And so he goes along with it without issuing court proceedings. So by the time a client comes to see you to complain about this, it's already been maybe six months, a year, and the line exists. Yeah. And not being able to see the children very much. And then it takes a long time to get to court. Yeah. And it's very difficult then to redress the balance. But the courts are very much in favour of... Both parents having time with their children And, you know, parents can be extremely damaging to their children when they're bad-mouthing of the children, having inappropriate conversations. You have to be very, very careful when you're leaving a very upsetting relationship with your partner that they're still the parent of that child. It's so depressing when you see them love both parents. And of course they do, and they should be able to love freely. That tendency, without, you know, you can't really characterise men and women completely one way or the other, but there's a tendency of women to do the giant threat and at the very worst make false accusations of sexual inappropriate behaviour to the children, which of course then could be years in sorting that one out in the course from maybe not years, but a long time. It's so depressing when that happens. Especially if it's true, it's a different message, but often it's not. No, it can be an extreme dungeon. And that's coercive control. Yeah, they'll say that's a different kind of coercive control. Yeah. You know, threatening to do something damaging to that father if he dares to leave. So this is a female sort of narcissism. Can we read something from the book that I think is... always struck me about what love is. So this is a book by Susan Forwood called Toxic Parents. This is not about toxic parents. It's about just a general thing. So she writes, loving behavior doesn't grind you down, keep you off balance or create feelings of self-hatred. Love doesn't hurt. It feels good. Loving behavior nourishes your emotional well-being. When someone is being loving to you, you feel accepted, cared for, valued, and respected. Genuine love creates feelings of warmth, pleasure, safety, stability, and inner peace. So I would go with all of that. Now, that's not to say that all of us, every second or hour or even year of our marriage are always amazing and wonderful to each other. People have patches when it's not so good. But I think the essence there is... that if you don't feel respected, if you feel frightened, if you don't feel equal, if you don't feel you have an equal say in what goes on in what kind of day, then you are likely to be in a relationship with somebody who has considerable qualities of narcissism. You have experience of dealing with people who come to you about feeling very unhappy in marriage when they've been either married to a narcissist or been in an abusive relationship we work with them in relation to trying to find boundaries and respecting themselves and that sometimes could be quite a long journey and analysing what's going on in their marriage in terms of if I do this X will happen to redress that problem And in my work, because I'm a psychotherapist, we or I, people, colleagues of mine, we will help clients also to look to their early experiences, childhood influences, which have helped or contributed to who they are today with a view to making changes to the future. Because my view is you live how you want, you stay with who you want to stay with. It's not... not my business to tell someone to leave the hospital. Occasionally, I have pretty much said that if somebody is being violent and I think their life is a danger. Well, thank you very much. You're very welcome. Talking about, to bring up another citizen in particular today, but that was really interesting.