How Pets May Slow Cognitive Decline: What Caregivers and Employers Need to Know

In this episode, we sit down with two brilliant researchers from Switzerland to explore a topic that instantly resonated with us—the powerful connection between pet ownership, cognitive aging, and caregiving. What started as a conversation about research quickly turned into a deeper discussion about human connection, quality of life, and how everyday relationships—especially with pets—can shape how we age and how we care.

We dig into what the research actually shows (and what it doesn’t), why dogs and cats seem to stand out, and how pets can play a role not just for older adults, but for caregivers and families as well. This episode will absolutely get you thinking differently about pets—not just as companions, but as part of a broader support system for aging, caregiving, and even end-of-life conversations.

Episode Highlights:

[0:51] – Setting the stage: why working caregivers remain invisible
 [1:32] – Selma and Zack welcome listeners and introduce the episode
 [2:12] – Meet our guests joining us from Switzerland
 [5:09] – A powerful personal caregiving story that shaped a research career
 [7:32] – What a longitudinal study is—and why 18 years of data matters
 [10:47] – Surprising findings: pet owners didn’t start with better cognition
 [11:43] – Why dogs and cats showed stronger cognitive benefits than birds or fish
 [14:09] – The potential role of touch, routine, and social engagement
 [16:02] – What pet ownership may mean for mild cognitive impairment and dementia
 [17:49] – How pets can support family caregivers—and when they add strain
 [19:52] – Why this research isn’t a prescription, but a strong signal for support
 [21:06] – Pets as emotional bridges before and after loss
 [23:17] – What employers and HR leaders can learn from these findings
 [24:43] – Big takeaways: pets as part of our social network and quality of life
 [27:12] – A candid conversation about end-of-life, grief, and why we avoid the topic
 [29:27] – What research is coming next and why it matters

Links & Resources:

·         Research study:  Longitudinal relationships between pet ownership and cognitive functioning in later adulthood across pet types and individuals' ages:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40447721/ 

·         Dr. Meier's LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/clementmeier/ 

·         Dr. Rostekova:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriana-rostekova-75192a141/ 

·         Interview with a young Caregiver mentioned on the show:  https://www.invisibleemployeesbook.com/real-working-caregivers-stories-1-32 

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast and leave a review. Remember to check out our website at invisibleemployeeadvocates.com for more resources, and subscribe to our newsletter for updates! We’ll catch you in the next episode.

Transcript

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 0:00

And we did find, actually that pet ownership is related to cognitive aging. It's great to see, yes. So I think one thing that surprises people when we talk about the study is that pet owners didn't really start with better cognition than people without pets. I think this is something that's quite surprising, but then over time, it was what we sort of expected to see, or it was our hypothesis that the pet owners actually, over time, experienced slower worsening of their cognitive abilities compared to people without pets. One thing that surprised me personally, I expected that we would see similar links in all the pet types we analyzed. So we looked at the dogs, cats, birds and fish, and I thought all of these species would contribute similarly. But actually, the surprising part for me was that it was mainly dogs and cats that were driving this these links, but we didn't see the same in birds and fish.

Jodi Krangle: 0:51

Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62 point 5,000,073% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees, is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers, join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers, the invisible employees podcast, as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos: 1:32

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, from whenever you're calling from and from wherever you're checking in with us. We appreciate you listening to the working caregiver, the invisible employee podcast. My name is Zach demopoulos,

Selma Archer: 1:46

and I'm Selma Archer. Hello,

Zack Demopoulos: 1:48

Selma Archer. How are you doing today?

Unknown: 1:51

I'm great. Zach. How are you fantastic?

Zack Demopoulos: 1:56

Yeah, we I've dug out of three feet of snow, three feet of snow. So it's, it was, I think it's five years waiting. We haven't had a major snow storm in five years. And so I know you're glad to be in California,

Unknown: 2:08

aren't you? Yes, I am, yeah.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:12

Well, speaking of snow, beautiful snow. We have two guests with us that I am just so thrilled that they have joined us all the way from Switzerland, and it's also late at night. So we really appreciate them with us. We have Dr Adriana Rostow Kova and Dr Clement Meyer. Hello, guys. How are you?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 2:33

Hey, so nice to be here. Hello,

Dr. Clément Meier: 2:36

good. We're good. Thank you for the invitation.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:39

Oh, we are honored, honored that you guys are here. And so before we start, and this should be really interesting, Selma, right? Because this is non United States, so we would love to know maybe just one little thing about where you live that maybe most people don't know. Go ahead. Dr Adriana, why don't you go first?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 2:57

So I'm originally, actually from Slovakia, and just moved to Geneva three years ago. And one thing that surprised me about Geneva is that people really love cold water swimming here and there is actually an event where everyone goes swimming in cold lake and various costumes. So this one really cool thing about Geneva, in my opinion. Have you tried it? Yes, I've done it last year. It was amazing.

Zack Demopoulos: 3:24

Well, God bless you. There's no way I would do something like that. I don't think so. I'm not, not voluntarily, but they that is a great piece of tribute. Thank you for sharing.

Dr. Clément Meier: 3:32

How about you? Dr Meyer, so I'm born and raised from Switzerland, and I think some something that might many people do not know is that we have four national languages. We do speak French, German and Italian, and we have a fourth one, which is a bit a mix of all of them, and it's named Romansh, and it's only like a few people that are still able to speak it, but they're really proud, and they keep on teaching it at school. And so, yeah, it's very mixed.

Zack Demopoulos: 4:02

Do you know that language? Do you know any words?

Dr. Clément Meier: 4:06

Not at all. I know French, German. It's already like enough.

Zack Demopoulos: 4:11

How do you say welcome in French? All right. There you go. Whatever. Dr Marc just said, Welcome to both of you guys here, and thank you so much for being here with us. People are probably going to wonder, why pet therapy? Why does Selma and I want to have this topic? And as we've researched your background and the work that you've done, we're extremely excited about the future of potential solutions for our aging population, outside of hospitals and medicine and long term care facilities, this is a very positive solution, and I am so excited about the results that you are finding. Can't wait to share with our listeners. But first of all, Dr Meyer, let me ask you, we. You really want to know what's inspired you to do some of this work that you're in? Do you happen in particular? Maybe a caregiving story that you'd like to share with us? Yeah.

Dr. Clément Meier: 5:09

So for me, I'm one of those very young caregivers. So I started caring when I was, I don't know, maybe 15 or even a bit younger, and I saw like how difficult it was, not only like for me, but for my family and all like the impact that it had on my life. And I think this really like changed my career and changed what I wanted to do, because I first decided to study economics, I really wanted to understand this power dynamic. But then I moved toward public health, care, giving and of life topics, because it was really like close to what I've seen. And I think it's just getting bigger and bigger, and in the next years, it's going to be very complicated with this aging of the population and all these issues around

Zack Demopoulos: 6:01

we recently had an interview with a very young caregiver at 10 years old, and the impact that that, that that has had on on him. Now he's 21 I'm willing to believe that that his caregiving experience has really strengthened his capabilities. He actually humbly shared with us that he was offered over a million dollars in scholarships with universities. What would you say? Dr Meyers, maybe a skill set you've picked up from a young age that you carry on to this day to day.

Dr. Clément Meier: 6:33

So for me, is the ability to really be in the moment. So now I can switch task very easily. And I think for research, it's super useful, because you can do like one article or some analysis and then be in the topic and then switch very quickly. Sometimes it takes a lot of time to change subjects. So this I learned, I think, through caregiving, to really say to myself, Okay, now I'm at work, so let's focus on work and try to keep my emotions for later or try to control this

Zack Demopoulos: 7:04

a very valuable strength to have be in the moment my goodness that will help keep things together, right, not fall apart. That's fantastic. Thank you for sharing us with that. Speaking of research, Dr rosticova, I understand you are the lead of the of this very important piece of research that you and Dr Meyer and others have done, which brought you to us today. Can you share a little bit about what this important research is about, and what inspired you to get into this kind of research? Yes.

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 7:32

So when I when I first arrived in Geneva, I joined the research group which which has strong expertise in cognitive aging, so sort of how people are able to maintain their brain abilities over time. And I personally have been interested for a long time in human animal bond and relationships. And at the same time, well, I knew I wanted to research modifiable factors, so things that people could change in real life and that could impact their outcomes in life. And so it felt like a good real world questions. Let's say pet ownership is something that is common, meaningful to people and also potentially modifiable. It's a decision we can take. So I felt like it would be a good thing to study. And we did find, actually, that pet ownership is related to cognitive aging, which was, which was great to see.

Zack Demopoulos: 8:20

It's fantastic. We're going to dig a little bit more into that. But just one other quick question. You call this study a longitudinal study? What does that mean?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 8:29

So essentially, it means that we follow the same participants over long periods in our studies, 18 years, and we collected the same data from them at every time point. In this case, it wasn't us personally, it was it's a very large longitudinal panel that many researchers work on together. Clement could maybe tell you more about that, since he works with this panel more closely. But essentially it means that instead of having one one data point, we have information about change in people over time.

Zack Demopoulos: 8:57

Did you say 18 years? Yes, that's significant. Is that common among research?

Dr. Clément Meier: 9:05

Yeah, so it's very like the 20 years ago. I think it started with the US, actually, you were the first to have this longitudinal aging studies, and so then Europe followed, the UK followed, and now it's almost everywhere, even in India and South Korea, like most countries have them, and it's super useful to understand the aging of the population, to understand the caregiving problem with all the caregivers and families. And so the goal is to follow adults age 50 plus, every two years we do face to face interview with them. So we ask them a lot of questions about their their activities, their health, also, what do they expect in life and so on. And we also make them some physical tests. And we at some point in the study, we also, like, for example, had bio. Marc curse or so on. We make them grow as well for dementia. And so the question about Best Bets was asked at the really beginning of the study. So it was good to compare with all those years that we are now. I think we are now on at wave 11 in share and I think in the US is more like it should be wave 12 or 13.

Zack Demopoulos: 10:25

Thank you. Thank you.

Selma Archer: 10:27

So what were some of the most surprising findings from your research when you first started? What your expectations may have been, you know, going a certain way, and then once you've started your research, you found things that really didn't, hadn't thought would happen, or you hadn't thought you would find Yes.

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 10:47

So I think one thing that surprises people when we talk about the study is that pet owners didn't really start with better cognition than people without pets. And in fact, in in memory scores a day scored lower at the first measurement points. And I think this is something that's quite surprising, but then over time, it was what we sort of expected to see, or it was our hypothesis that the pet owners actually, over time, experienced slower worsening of their cognitive abilities compared to people without pets. And one thing that surprised me, personally, I expected that we would see similar, similar links in all the PETA types we analyzed. So we looked at the dogs, cats, birds and fish, and I thought all of these species would contribute similarly. But actually, the surprising part for me was that it was mainly dogs and cats that were driving this, these links, but we didn't see the same in birds and fish.

Selma Archer: 11:43

Do you have any idea why that would be different? I know that, just from my personal experience and caring for my mom for so many years, when she was in her last end of life stage and was in hospice, one of the highlights of her day was they would bring little puppies in and have the patients be able to hold and cuddle with them. And that really energized her, and she was good for the rest of the day, and she looked forward to that hour every day. So I just wonder, what do you see as that connection? That is that part of it, being able to actually hold and touch because when reading some of your research, you say that, as you just said, the birds and the fish, you don't have the same reaction. So is it that human touch that makes the difference?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 12:32

So I would say that there's, there's different parts of what could possibly be the explanation. I will say that we didn't really test any mechanisms. So we can say for certain, but based on these differences between different species of animals, we can speculate. I would say the important part is really the engagement and the way we interact with our animals, because we saw different changes in different mental abilities between dogs and cats also, for example, and I would say the reason is that, for example, caring for dogs entails different things, such as walking or training them, so you have to remember the cues and the routes. So memory will worsen more slowly, because you sort of exercise it over time. And one very cute research I found, actually shows that cat owners are most likely to speak to their pets. So because cat owners are more likely to speak to their pets, we can say that perhaps this daily communication means that the cat owners would be more likely to retain their verbal abilities, which we see also in our results. And perhaps the way people would engage with birds and fish is not the same. Perhaps if they did, we would see similar associations. But instead, you know, the bond that people develop with birds and fish is limited, by the way, we cannot really bring them everywhere. They cannot accompany us as much in our life. And also, what Selma said, it is very correct that, for example, physical touch with animals can be shown to actually lower heart rate, for example, or cortisol levels, so it can lower our stress and anxiety, which is also linked with with our cognition. So definitely, this is also a factor at play,

Dr. Clément Meier: 14:09

something that that we are we don't know is. We just don't know if people got a fish or a bird, because they may already have, like declining condition or not, or if they were not able to take care of a cat or a dog. So this could be also a reason, but we did not check with the result we have yet.

Zack Demopoulos: 14:34

Okay, okay. Dr Rosa Cova, I was smiling when you were talking, because my wife and I were huge dog lovers for 38 years, and I will tell you when I'm having a bad day and I look over at my beautiful pet, it changes me. It totally changes me and and they're so happy to see me, and it does, it does have an impact on me. And I know that your research is so important, because with the death of it. Animal too. As much as we're a big lovers, you feel such such a grief, and you're grieving. So I know that connection is quite strong. Question, what were the age ranges of these 18 year study that you did? Of your subjects?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 15:16

Yes, so our participants were aged between 50 and 99 so the starts with people who are 50.

Zack Demopoulos: 15:23

Did you see any significant difference between the age, like earlier age versus a later age? Yes.

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 15:30

So what we did was we compared people. We compared, essentially the lower age health of our sample with the health that was older. So for us, this time point was 62 and we didn't see significant differences between the groups, so the links were the same in both age groups.

Zack Demopoulos: 15:50

Okay, so Dr Russell, how might pet ownership influence somebody already experiencing mild cognitive impairment or early stage dementia? In other words, is there benefit to get in there earlier than later.

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 16:02

Personally, in our study, we didn't look at people with dementia specifically, but I know that there are other researchers who do. There is a study who came out, out of Manchester Metropolitan University, for example, and they did see differences in people with mild to moderate dementia who owned pets and who didn't, in not only cognition, but also other areas of life, such as quality of life, General, well being, life satisfaction and so on. So there is definitely research going on that shows that this mild dementia, there's also a difference between pet owners and non owners,

Dr. Clément Meier: 16:37

no, and I think, like it's as always, like the earlier, the better. So if you really want to slow down cognitive aging, or if you have mild cognitive impairment, I think like having a pet, doing more activities, going out, having more social interactions, can really help, actually, for everyone in general, but more like for people who have, like cognitive difficulties,

Zack Demopoulos: 17:02

like many of the interventions that we're seeing, they're more they're more impactful the earlier. Obviously, I know many people always ask us, is there a cure for Alzheimer's? Is a cure for dementia? And you know, the only, the only thing that we're seeing now is just trying to get in there earlier and try to improve quality of life, and and, and reduce, reduce the impact. So obviously, great benefit for for someone who's receiving care, some who's a family, loved one you know, with cognitive decline or or any other adverse effects of whatever cognitively they may be going through, the care recipient is benefiting. Did you have any chance, either in your research or anecdotally, find that there was some benefits to the family caregiver, for that recipient, care recipient.

Dr. Clément Meier: 17:49

It was not like in our research, specifically, but when we were doing the literature review, it was explained in different studies that pets actually are very good icebreaker, and this is super useful for family caregivers to keep having a relationship with the patients or with their the people they're caring for. And it's for them a way to break the ice, to find other topic whenever the pet is there, they can just like, go ahead and have their interaction altogether. So for this is very positive. And also, like with aging, sometimes you have a lot of mental health problems, and sometimes it's hard to keep the link and to keep people like, to keep the relationship. And with pets, is a way to do it, because you can ask question, you can care for the pets. If the person is away, you can and so in that sense, I think it's super useful in the in the study we we've shown

Zack Demopoulos: 18:50

Do you Do you see any downside to to the pet ownership and the family caregiver?

Dr. Clément Meier: 18:56

So it was also mentioned that if the person is not well enough to take care of the pets, then it's the caregiver who have to take care of the pets. And most of the time they don't feel good getting rid of the pet, either to give to a shelter or to put the bed away. So they have, they keep the pet, and they care for the pet, and then financially, like logistically, it's something else that they have to do. So it can be even more exhausting, specifically, because it's an animal that they have not decided to have themselves.

Zack Demopoulos: 19:34

How would you suggest maybe introducing this, this intervention, based on your research being so valuable. How would maybe a physician or a care provider suggest maybe bringing a pet into the living environment, especially if they didn't have one in the past? Do you have any suggestions for that?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 19:52

So just to start, I would say that, based on our findings, I wouldn't necessarily say that we can recommend obtaining a pet as an intervention. To someone who perhaps wouldn't consider that before a part of this this that our findings are observational, so we see that pet owners tend to have slower cognitive decline. But we don't necessarily know whether it is the pet ownership itself that causes this. There might be some other factors at play, but I would say what these findings show is that if someone expresses the will to have a pet, or they would like to and they feel like it's beneficial for them, there is a possibility that it would also help with their cognitive decline, and therefore it should be supported. Some of the things we discuss in the we discuss in the study are, for example, policy, policies that would be more pet friendly, in terms of housing, for example, or aid with veterinary costs, or also pet care for people who are older and who might struggle. For example, here in Geneva, we have an association where volunteers can help older people with walking their pets, for example. And I think interventions or programs such as these ones could help someone who would like to have a pet and would benefit but might struggle otherwise due to the care burden. Actually we have have a companion like this.

Selma Archer: 21:06

I just wondered if you touched on if pet ownership can be a or is a bridge between the person that's being cared for and the caregiver, like many times, when the person passes away and that pet is still there, that kind of helps that emotionally, helps that remaining caregiver to get through the journey. So what do you think your findings talk to about that?

Dr. Clément Meier: 21:34

I haven't seen a lot of studies on this, but I think it would be super interesting to investigate this, but I would agree that it would go in the direction you mentioned. I think if they have a good relationship with the pets, and if the pets was very important for the person, you can really help with the grief, and it could be a good emotional support. And I think that that's also what we saw in different studies, that people with mental difficulties, they have a very good pet bonding with their animals, and it's super strong, and it helps them a lot. They talk a lot to their pets. They also spend a lot of time with them, so it's very reciprocal like for them to have this. Something I wanted to mention is that all of this is very new, and, for example, in the UK, now they're working on this. They call it social prescription. When a physician can say, okay, for your health, you have to do some activities, and then they can prescribe some football class or other sport or other outdoor activities. And I think to me, having a pet could also be like a social prescription at some point for someone that is super isolated or do not have a lot of contact with the outside world, say, okay, maybe you can try to go to the shelter, adopt a dog for a while and see like if it's working or not, because it doesn't have to be like forever as well. You can just try.

Zack Demopoulos: 23:04

That's an excellent vision. I love that. That's great.

Selma Archer: 23:07

How do you think employers, leaders and HR can incorporate your findings into supporting their employees, who are caregivers?

Dr. Clément Meier: 23:17

I think it's, again, like a very new topic, and in Europe and also in other parts of the world now there is this whole movement toward like, compassionate communities, compassionate universities, compassionate workplace. And I think what they are doing is super useful, because in bringing back caregiving, death, dying, grief as an important topic, and it allow people to have to have the opportunity to talk about death, dying, caregiving at work, to receive some help, to be able to maybe have some days off. So with the pets, I think, as Ariana mentioned earlier, if we have more friendlier policies where you could take your pet at work, or if you can have if your your boss would let you go to the vet with your pet during your work hours, I think those type of things could be very useful, right?

Selma Archer: 24:17

That's helpful. So in summary, before we get to getting information about how people can contact you, I just wonder if each of you could talk about your in terms of your research, your aha moment, like, what is it that you want our listeners to take away from all the work and all the research that you've done in terms of pet therapy,

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 24:43

I would say one angle that I like to take, or I want to take in my research is in the beginning. I really started with my interest in social connections and aging, and then I thought about how aging is often associated with the loss of. Social Network because of factors such as bereavement, departure to retirement and so on. And then I thought about how pets can become almost like a part of our social network and an alternative form of connection. And I think, yeah, perhaps we can consider pets as a resource that we can't use as a connection, and also in terms of the differences between different pet species that we that we discussed, perhaps based on our findings, it would be good for people to consider how they engage with their pets and the way they interact with them, and how that these small interactions can also actually help their cognition as well. What about you, Clement,

Dr. Clément Meier: 25:41

so for me, you, you mentioned this, I think earlier, Zach, is really this thing that end of life doesn't have to be medicalized. And I think, like pets, could be seen as as as medicine in a way, because they might do some some as good as some medicine. But it's outside of the hospital. It's outside of, like the house is more social interaction. And I think this I really like, and I really like that it could be, like the future, that we could just promote this positive behavior. And I think it's just like a snowball, because you have a bed, then you meet other people, is even with us, like when we go on the street and we smile at people having pets or you discussing the lift or whatever, and I think this for older adults, it's super important and have more interaction. It's just more benefit for them.

Zack Demopoulos: 26:34

I so appreciate you bringing that up. Dr Meyer, because look, end of life is a very difficult topic. It's very difficult to have these conversations with your family members. I mentioned to you before we started when my when my father, you know, had a severe fall and ended up being a fatal fall. You know, I had to have that discussion with him about his the future, quality of life. Do you mind? I know that we're getting a little bit off pet therapy topic here and your research, but you also are doing research on end of life and how to help with emotional suffering. You can you just take a minute, since we have you here, and share what you're finding, what you're working on,

Dr. Clément Meier: 27:12

yeah, and I can also link it with the pets, because actually, like the biggest problem we are seeing in most countries is that death is a complete taboo. We talk a lot about death and people dying with with all the event that it's that are happening and and with war and so on, but we never talk about our own death. And this is very problematic, because then you don't prepare, and if you're not like preparing or discussing, and then whenever you have to make decisions, or whenever you reach that point, you're not ready, and it's messy, and it can be very painful for the families, for the patient as well, because we don't know what to do. So we tend to do way more, and then they are over treated. It extend the period of of life. I think two things with two things with pets. The first one is that pets are also like one of the first time you see death now when you're younger. And I think it could be a first step for discussion, and it could be like a first way of interest and introducing the subject. And the second thing is, for me, I don't get it, because you see very different legislation in different countries with assisted dying, for example. And in Switzerland, we can do this. I know in the US, in different states, you can as well do it. And for many people, their pets are their family member. And for them, there is, like no issues at all at doing euthanasia, when the pets can just not leave anymore, but for family member, it's somehow a problem in many countries. And now that we live so long and that we can, like extend life that much, the question of whether, like should we do assisted dying, should we let the option then like being available for everyone is, for me, is this difference between pets and non pets? With this question is very interesting. Why would you say yes for your pets, but not you love them both? No. So yeah, wow.

Zack Demopoulos: 29:15

That that could be a philosophical debate that we don't have enough time for. But that is an excellent, excellent point. Dr Rosa COGO, are you? Are you working on anything new and exciting that you can share?

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 29:27

Yes, actually, we touched on it a little bit before that we in within this study, we did not look at mechanisms. So the new project that we will be working on this year will actually look a little bit of on the potential interactions that might or might not contribute to the changes in cognition.

Zack Demopoulos: 29:46

What do you hope to find? Can you share or do we have to wait to your to your results, just like a good movie, a good trailer,

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 29:57

I would I would expect that probably there is. Certain interactions, certain engagements that will relate to changes in cognition more than others.

Selma Archer: 30:05

Yes, thank you both for all of your wonderful insight. Just before we leave, Can each of you just share with our listeners how they can find you and learn more about you and more about the great work and research.

Dr. Adriana Rostekova: 30:22

So I work at University of Geneva, so you can definitely have a look at the page of our research group. I personally work on pet ownership, but my colleagues work on different aspects of cognitive aging. So via our our research groups page, you can find out about this research. And for you, Clement

Dr. Clément Meier: 30:41

is the same on the I work at the University of Lausanne in Switzerland as well. But I think the easiest is via LinkedIn. If you're interested, we do post everything that we do. We do share. So if you're a LinkedIn user, yeah, go ahead and just

Zack Demopoulos: 30:57

we, we will definitely add your LinkedIn connections. I like to see a little bit more posting from you two now, okay, because you know, I know, I know that what you're working on is extremely important, and I will stay in touch with you through that route, but maybe, who knows, down the road we can have you back on thank you both for your time and for the work that you're doing. It's so important, and I'm just so glad because we are big, big animal lovers in this household, and I know that they give us tremendous benefit, but it was nice to read about it and understand it academically. So I really appreciate the work you're doing.

Unknown: 31:30

Thank you. Thank you very much for having us on your first panel. Thanks to you. Yeah, it was super nice.

Jodi Krangle: 31:37

Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers. You