Navigating the Legal and Practical Challenges After a Cancer Diagnosis

In this episode, we sit down with Monica Bryant, co-founder of Triage Cancer, to talk about the often-overlooked legal and practical challenges that follow a cancer diagnosis. As caregivers and advocates, we explore how navigating health insurance, workplace rights, and treatment logistics can quickly become overwhelming for families already dealing with the emotional weight of cancer. Monica shares how Triage Cancer empowers patients and caregivers with the knowledge they need to make informed decisions and reduce stress.

We also discuss the role employers and healthcare providers play in supporting working caregivers, how tools like AI may help expand access to information, and why understanding your legal and financial options can make a meaningful difference during the cancer journey. 

[00:00] – Why employers want to support caregivers but often don’t know how to start.

[01:02] – We welcome Monica Bryant and kick off the conversation with a fun Chicago icebreaker.

[02:34] – Monica explains how Triage Cancer was founded and why legal education is critical after a cancer diagnosis.

[04:17] – How Triage Cancer helps patients and caregivers navigate legal, financial, and workplace issues.

[06:18] – Why caregiving during cancer often becomes urgent and overwhelming for families.

[07:32] – The psychosocial impact of caregiving and how access to information can reduce stress and anxiety.

[09:09] – The complexities of treatment decisions, insurance coverage, and navigating healthcare systems.

[11:20] – How Triage Cancer works with healthcare professionals to better support patients and caregivers.

[15:42] – Our discussion about AI in healthcare and where technology can help without replacing human empathy.

[19:26] – A powerful real-life story showing how the right legal knowledge helped a father protect his daughter’s cancer treatment.

[23:02] – Policy changes and how shifts in healthcare coverage could impact millions of Americans.

[25:43] – How listeners can access Triage Cancer’s free educational resources, events, and support tools.

[27:59] – Monica’s important reminder: why everyone over 18 should have an estate plan in place.

Links & Resources:

Triage Cancer website: Home

Triage Health website: Home

Stacie Vanags' Working Caregiver Story: Stories from
Real Working Caregivers

Charlotte Bayala Cancer Caregiver Podcast: The Cancer Caregiver

Monica Fawzy Bryant is a cancer rights attorney and the co-founder and
Chief Mission Officer for Triage Cancer. Monica has dedicated her career to
improving access to and availability of quality information on the practical,
insurance, financial, and legal issues surrounding serious medical conditions,
like cancer. She has provided more than one thousand educational seminars,
written articles and co-authored a book published by the American Bar
Association called Cancer Rights Law: An Tool for Effective Navigation, as
well as appeared on television and radio discussing healthcare related legal
issues. Previously, Monica worked as Legislative Counsel for U.S. Congresswoman
Linda T. Sanchez and Law Clerk for U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein.

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast and leave a review. Remember to check out our website at invisibleemployeeadvocates.com for more resources, and subscribe to our newsletter for updates! We’ll catch you in the next episode.

Transcript

Monica Bryant: 0:00

So many employers that we talk to want to do the right thing, and they want to help their employees, whether it's the employee who's been diagnosed or the caregiver. They want to keep these valued employees, but they may not necessarily know how best to do that, and so I think bringing them into the conversation is so incredibly valuable.

Jodi Krangle: 0:21

Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States? And by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62 point 5,000,073% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers the invisible employees podcast, as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos: 1:02

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. From whenever and wherever you are calling in from, we really appreciate you checking out working caregivers. The Invisible employee Podcast. I'm Zach demopoulos And I'm Selma Archer. Hey, Selma, how are you?

Selma: 1:17

I'm great Zach. I'm so excited about our guests today we have with us. Monica Bryant, Hi,

Monica Bryant: 1:23

Monica, welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Zack Demopoulos: 1:27

Welcome Monica, thank you

Selma: 1:29

for joining us. We're excited to get into what you do today and share with our audience your care experience. But what we start out with is an icebreaker. Can you tell us a little bit about or something very interesting about where you're from, where you live?

Monica Bryant: 1:47

So I currently live in Chicago, Illinois, and there is an annual tradition where on St Patrick's day they die the Chicago River green. What I find hilarious about this is that the river is usually green. They just diet a brighter green. So I think you know whether it's interesting or not, I do find it That's funny.

Selma: 2:17

That's pretty that's pretty cool. Yes, thank you for sharing that. So Monica, let's start by having you share with us how you came to create triage cancer. Was there something in cancer care that you thought was not being addressed?

Monica Bryant: 2:34

So almost 14 years ago, my co founder and myself really looked at the landscape of what was available in the cancer community, specifically around education on the legal and practical issues that can arise after a diagnosis. And she and I are both attorneys by training, and we really felt like we had an opportunity to fill a gap in what already existed by providing this education. And a lot of times when I say I'm a cancer rights attorney, the response I get back is, well, what's legal about cancer? And my answer is actually almost everything, from what medication someone has access to to what health insurance covers, to what a caregiver's rights are at work if they need to take time off to fulfill their caregiving responsibilities, all of those things are rooted in the law, and a lot of times, people don't actually need a lawyer or legal representation. They just need understanding and information about what the law says, and that's really at the core of what we do at triage cancer.

Selma: 3:44

That's very helpful, because it's true as an attorney myself, there's, there's a legal component to just about everything you do, everything, birth, death, and all that's in between. You gotta have a lawyer at some point for something. So thanks for sharing that with us. For our listeners that are unfamiliar with triage cancer, can you talk a little bit about how it works and how it's different from the traditional support services for cancer patients?

Monica Bryant: 4:17

So we're a national nonprofit that, as I mentioned, provides education on the legal and practical issues that can arise after a cancer diagnosis, both for the individual who's diagnosed and the caregivers. And we provide that education through events, materials and resources. So we host free educational events. We are asked to speak out in the community on these issues. We have tons of, you know, written materials and animated videos. And then we also have a legal and financial navigation program, and that's where people can fill out a form on our website and schedule a call with us, where we then get on the phone with them and we try to answer their questions. Options. You know, we explain what options they might have, whether it's understanding how they can take job protected leave and also replace that lost income, or if it's for an individual who's diagnosed, maybe it's about understanding reasonable accommodations. And so, as I mentioned, so, often people don't actually need representation, they just need the information, and sometimes understanding even what questions to be asking. What should they go back to their workplace and ask about what benefits they might have access to, or what options there might be? Oftentimes, I find that people don't know what they don't know, and so they don't even know what questions to be asking, right?

Zack Demopoulos: 5:40

I can't tell you how valuable your services are. Triage. Cancer is God sent. I'll be honest with you, because many times in our research that someone I've done, you know, caregiving is caregiving. It's unique, it's different, but there's a lot of similar concepts. But when it comes to cancer, it's similar to when someone has a sudden fall and breaks a hip, you know, you get this diagnosis. So a lot of times, caregiving is urgent, like, what do we do now? How does what triage cancer do a little different from maybe just your regular services that support cancer families with cancer?

Monica Bryant: 6:18

Well, we're one of the only national organizations that's dedicated to providing the education. So it's not direct navigation services, it's not clinical navigation services. It's it really is about arming people with information so that they can understand the various options that might exist for them, but then they also understand the pros and cons to each of those options so that they can figure out, armed with that knowledge, what really are the best next steps for us to be taking, what path should we go down? And sometimes caregivers will come to us because they're looking for information for their loved one. And then sometimes caregivers come to us because they're trying to figure out what options they have.

Zack Demopoulos: 7:01

Do you have by any chance? Because we the same time your podcast will be coming out, we have a interview with a real, working caregiver, and her story is about how her husband had stage four brain cancer, and he's doing well, but she shared with us that she felt like she's the one who had to cure cancer. She had to do all these things, and as caregivers, like to take upon themselves, right? Put the cape on and go do things. Do you have education around those kinds of things as well? Or just about the cancer journey itself?

Monica Bryant: 7:32

Well, we certainly do have some information around the psychosocial components to being a caregiver, so stress management. But believe it or not, the I look at what we do as part of psychosocial care, because I think that when we're giving people information about the laws and what their options are and what programs exist that might help them, whether that be respite care or whether that be paid leave, if that exists in their state, what we see to be true, and we have evaluation data from our events, and our navigation program is, by giving people that information, they report back that their stress and anxiety levels decrease.

Zack Demopoulos: 8:13

Wow, that's great. Very beneficial. We

Selma: 8:15

also have, we've had several guests that are caregiving for patient that have cancer. And one of the things that seems to be consistent with everyone is just how complex the treatment can be, and there's so many stages, you know, options in terms of chemotherapy, radiation and all that, but also the inequities and disparities in terms of access to oftentimes those treatments, as well as the education like you're providing around options and cancers. So how does triage cancer work to help patients and caregivers have equal access to information as well as services. It's so

Monica Bryant: 9:09

true both the piece around how complex it is and I'm always amazed when we talk with caregivers, because so often they can spout the names of these medications and the dosages and what providers and it's so complicated. And on top of almost getting, you know that medical education, they then also have to navigate, what are the rights at work? What's health insurance covering? What do I do if there's a denial of care? What happens if I need to go see a specialist that isn't in my plans network, and now all of a sudden they're also having to become experts in a lot of these legal areas. So on the care. I mean, it's it's challenging across the board and but to your point, Zach, I think caregivers do take on that role so often, of having to understand all of it, and then they're often. Ones that are actually doing the leg work. So they're on the phone with the insurance company, they're filing the appeal. They're trying to find the doctors. Again, it's about understanding your knowledge is power. And so if we can teach people how to understand how health insurance works, then when they get that denial of care, they know what to do. They don't have to take no for an answer. They have the right to appeal that denial if they're trying to see an out of network specialist, because that's the only provider in the country that deals with this diagnosis. Like, what do they do? Can they file an exception request? And so it is interesting, because oftentimes when I think about sort of where the law differs for caregivers, it is in the employment space, but so often, the caregivers also have to learn all these pieces around health insurance and access to care, because they're helping their their loved ones navigate all of that. With respect to the disparities, it's an absolute truth in this country, and we know that the disparities aren't just around access to care, but we also see it with respect to the financial hardship that people experience.

Zack Demopoulos: 11:08

Do you guys do anything in terms of the healthcare systems like, like helping educate with healthcare providers, social workers, cancer centers? Are you doing any work with that in that area?

Monica Bryant: 11:20

We do so in addition to providing this education directly to individuals who are diagnosed and caregivers, we train healthcare professionals. And one of the reasons for that is that oftentimes it is the healthcare professional who's on the front lines. They're the ones sitting across from the person who's been diagnosed and the caregiver, and they hear maybe the offhanded comment, I'm so stressed I can't take any more days off work, or, you know, I don't know how we're going to make it to that appointment, because I have to be at work at this time. Or what do I do about this? And we want to train healthcare professionals on these cancer related legal issues, because then the hope is, when they hear those comments, something rings a bell, and at the very least they're saying, hey, there might be something out there to help you. Here's where you can go get more information.

Zack Demopoulos: 12:08

We're aligned, because that's what we want to do with employers, right? But let me ask you, what's your first few steps in this process? Because trying to get physicians to add on to their to their bedside manner into their education is a challenge in today's time. What do you have a couple of steps that you're taking in that in that direction,

Monica Bryant: 12:31

it is a challenge. And to be fair, healthcare professionals, be it the oncologist or the social worker or the nurse, navigating these legal systems really isn't their job. However, they are in the prime position to be helping patients, exactly, and I think to your point, so are employers. What we have started with is we started with what we refer to as the allied healthcare professionals, right? So it's the nurses, the social workers, the navigators, the community health workers, because again, they're the ones that that do tend to spend more time with patients and caregivers in terms of getting the doctors on board. It's definitely a heavier lift, because even when we have doctors say to us, of course, I care about these issues. Of course, I want to help my patients. It does come down to a bandwidth issue. You know, I only get 15 minutes with the patient as it is, and I need to spend that time talking about the medical side of it. I can't spend that time talking about these other issues, but I do think it's important that we all sort of keep having these conversations and pushing the issue, because there are times when these practical components may need To inform the treatment plan. Right? If someone says, I can't have whatever radiation every morning because I'm going to lose my job if I do that. Are there alternatives? Can we schedule it before or after work? You know, is there something we can do to make it work so that you can stay at your job, which usually not only means maintaining income, but also health insurance for a vast majority of Americans, while also accessing your treatment. And if that conversation never happens, then how is the healthcare professional going to know that that treatment plan is posing a problem?

Zack Demopoulos: 14:35

You're onto something, because I got to tell you, lately, all my physicians, you do the pre check in online, right? And they ask you socio economic questions, and I'm just curious what time I'm just gonna put wrong answers in there and see if there's any follow up. Like, no, I can't afford my to pay bills or, you know, but, but you're onto something. You're right, because they're connected. And I get it, I get it that the bandwidth is an issue. Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

Monica Bryant: 15:00

I want to I want you to report back when you put those wrong answers to see what happened. It is a great step in the right direction, right that they're even asking the question, right? There was a time not so long ago that that wasn't even being addressed. So I do think we've moved forward in a lot of ways. I also think that the employer piece is critical. So many employers that we talk to want to do the right thing, and they want to help their employees, whether it's the employee who's been diagnosed or the caregiver. They want to keep these valued employees, but they may not necessarily know how best to do that, and so I think bringing them into the conversation is so incredibly valuable.

Selma: 15:42

Well, speaking of the pre check in and AI is becoming more and more prominent in our healthcare services as well as healthcare decision making. So how do you see balancing the the services you know, the need for for AI, and the support that we have from Ai with the human touch, with, you know, the need for empathy. You know, because computers can't show empathy, we still need that human touch. How do you see drawing that line? What does that look like?

Monica Bryant: 16:20

Well, the way that I look at AI is it's a tool, just like the Internet became a tool, just like electronic medical records became a tool. Ai should be used as a tool, and it, in my opinion, should never replace the human component of it. But where I think there's absolute value is, can it make us more efficient? Can it provide give us the ability to provide help to more people? Can it support people where they may not have support otherwise? And one example of that is we actually have a tool on our website that's a AI powered appeals letter generator, so if someone receives a denial from their health insurance company, they can actually upload that information to this free tool, and the tool will draft an appeals letter for them. Will it be perfect every time? Maybe not. But if we're talking about someone who doesn't have a support system, or doesn't maybe have someone who has the capacity to do this for them, this, at least, is one way that they can move forward with the appeals

Unknown: 17:31

process. That's good.

Selma: 17:33

Just a funny comment on the difference between AI and human the human touch. Recently, I was ordering prescription for my husband, diabetic. The call was that drug, the pharmacist was answered by AI machine, which I was used to the pharmacy, answering of a human being. And I'm telling this, this machine is saying, I can help you. How can I help you? If you're here, if you want to get a prescription. Give me the prescription number, and I'm like, I need to talk to a pharmacist, because there were some changes that needed to be tweaked in his medication. I can help you give me that number and I can, no, I need to talk to a pharmacist. I need the if you give me the number, the RX number, I can and I'm arguing with this machine. It's very frustrating, you know, but it seems like that's the initial, the initial response you get. Now, when you reach out to organizations, whether it's medical, whether it's a drug store or grocery store, you're being answered by a machine. And a lot of times you need a human being, you know, because it's not your standard. I can, I can help you. Just give me the number, you know, just, just a funny comment,

Zack Demopoulos: 18:49

yeah, speaking of a human being. So when somebody thinks a triage cancer, they might think that way. They might think, Oh, am I gonna get, you know, a chat box or a robot, you know, walking me through the steps. I got a punch three to go here for instead, and because I'm because we're so excited about triage cancer when we first met, we really are. Can you paint a picture for our listeners, viewers as well that, you know, maybe take the name out, but share a success story with a caregiver of how triage cancer really helps somebody. Can you do that for us? Absolutely.

Monica Bryant: 19:26

And this is my favorite story to tell, so I'm so excited I'm gonna get to tell it again. Couple years ago, a gentleman reached out to us and his daughter had blood cancer, and she was on a very expensive medication that she had to take on a monthly basis, but she was doing well on this medication. He was a university professor, and he had been offered his dream job at a different university. The problem was that the new university. His health insurance coverage would not cover this medication that his daughter was currently on. So he called us, starting with, I don't think I can take this dream job of mine, because I have to keep my daughter alive, powerful stuff, right? So it's obviously a choice most parents would make. But I was able to say, Hold on a minute. There might be another option. And so we talked through the ability to that once they were on the new insurance, he could file an appeal. It's a formulary exception, to basically ask the new insurance to make an exception to cover this medication. The rub was he would have to be on the new insurance first submit it, get the denial. All that was going to take time, and it was going to mean she was going to miss treatment. Oh, no. So then I was able to explain, okay, what your daughter can do is actually take Cobra for the one month in between to continue the old coverage. Well, you get on the new coverage, and you wait for the whole process to go through. So he was super excited about this. He went back to HR. He's like, here's the plan, you know, yes, I'm taking this job Cobra. Then he came back and said, HR, says that if my daughter takes Cobra, we all have to take Cobra, to which I was able to do a very quick search of our federal regulations and show that that is not, in fact, the case. Sent it over to him. He printed it out, took it to HR. Next call I got was about a month later, saying, guess what, I'm at the new job. We filed the appeal. They're gonna cover it. We're gonna move forward with this insurance, and we're gonna be able to drop Cobra, and she was able to get her medication the whole time.

Zack Demopoulos: 21:51

I know HR has the word human in it, but let me tell you, you were the human in this. And, yeah, that's a great story, great story.

Monica Bryant: 21:59

And it's certainly not to like tout my own horn, but I think it just illustrates so clearly how knowledge is power 100%

Zack Demopoulos: 22:09

and not only that, but taking the time to understand the issue. What helping somebody you're also probably helping them with their stress on the call. I mean, they're already have tremendous amount of stress with their daughter, but wow, that was That's a great story,

Selma: 22:23

both amazing that you guys are like a like superpower. You're superheroes. You're changing people's lives. That's awesome. That's wonderful.

Monica Bryant: 22:32

I certainly hope so. I mean, I have of belief that we should all be making the world a better place in our own ways, and this just happens to be the way that I lucky enough to be able to do that. Awesome.

Selma: 22:45

So, so what do you see as next steps for triage cancer? What do you see as the most immediate changes we need to make with regard to the system that we're currently in under cancer care system?

Monica Bryant: 23:02

Yeah, I mean, I there's, unfortunately, more than one. I think most significantly in the near term is we had some legislative changes happen last year that are going to significantly impact people's access to health insurance. And that includes, you know, the loss of the advanced financial assistance in the marketplace plans, it includes upcoming Medicaid work requirements. And I think you know, the combination of all of these things, we're going to see millions of people lose access to health insurance. And if that wasn't bad enough, it's not just going to impact people who have marketplace plans or Medicaid. What most people don't realize is that if people don't have health insurance and they need to access medical care, how are they going to do that? They're probably going to go to the emergency room, and then that turns into uncompensated care for hospitals. And when there's too much uncompensated care, hospitals have to make financial decisions like either closing departments like an emergency room or closing the whole hospital. So even if someone has the best health insurance possible through an employer, let's say, and has an emergency and goes to the nearest hospital and that hospital is closed or doesn't have an emergency room, that's a problem even with their great insurance. And so we often talk about these policy changes in a vacuum, like they're only going to impact certain people, when in reality, the way our health care system is built, a change over here impacts everybody. And so those are the kinds of things that we're really keeping an eye on and trying to spread awareness about because it is, it is complicated, and most people don't really want to talk about health insurance.

Selma: 24:49

Yeah, it's like a domino effect. What you just described. You know, one thing tips over and dispels and knocks over the other the other thing so. You know, until, until we met you and talk with you and your co founder about triage cancer, I had no idea that anything like your organization existed, which is a wealth of information. I could have used, used you, used your services. You know, in my own personal can't, you know, care journey with my, with my my mom, who has to wait 2017 but how, how can people learn more about your work and and and the services that you provide, and how they can actually become more informed and empowered by getting to know the work that you do.

Monica Bryant: 25:43

Well, certainly our website. So triage cancer.org, I will also just say that in 2023 we expanded and we launched a program called triage health, which is a program of the organization, but it's really providing the same information about laws around insurance and employment and finances, but not specific to cancer, because we didn't want to gatekeep the education and only keep it for the cancer community when we know there are so many other communities that could benefit from this type of information. So people can go to either triage health.org or triage cancer.org and on our website, you'll see free resources. You can read print out, watch. We also have registration for all of our free live events, and so we welcome people to join us on our monthly webinars. We have longer conferences that we offer twice a year, virtually again, it's all free to access. Events are free to attend, and really, our goal is to avoid having to hear what you just said. Selma, I could have used your services. Wish I had known. That's what keeps me up at night.

Zack Demopoulos: 26:56

We please do us a favor and really get out there and market as much as you can. I know. I know that's why we wanted you on the show, so that listeners and viewers could learn more about you. We had shout out to Charlotte bayala, who does cancer caregiver podcast. I know if you've heard of it, she's fantastic 15 minute of meditation and just reality about being a cancer caregiver. But again, the challenge is get it out there, find out more about these important resources. So one more question, Selma, if you don't mind, before you leave, what? Let's, let's plant a seed in the viewers and listeners mind. What is one thing that you should share with us right now that we're probably not thinking about, that we need to think about and make sure we treat has cancer by our fingertips in the near future. What's one thing that you're I guess, better way to ask this is, what do you see most common that people say, I wish I'd have known about this, what is, what is the one thing that maybe we can just start thinking about right now?

Monica Bryant: 27:59

Well, it's a little off the beaten path from our conversation thus far, but I would say that everybody over the age of 18 should have an estate plan.

Zack Demopoulos: 28:08

I knew you're gonna say that. Thank you, but that includes POA advanced directives, right? Just 100% real quick. Just, just tell our audience, what's the difference between a POA fiduciary, a healthcare advocate, and Advanced Directives? Because old wills don't have a lot of that stuff in it, right? So if you're the age of 70, maybe 8090, you know, you know you don't have those. So real quick, just tell us the difference.

Monica Bryant: 28:41

Yeah, so it depends on the state, but what I would say is that everybody over the age of 18 needs to have three documents at a minimum. The first is a will that's going to deal with distribution of your property and guardianship of minor children. The second is a power of attorney for financial affairs, and that's where you can name an agent, an individual, to make financial decisions for you if you're still alive, but you are unable to make those decisions for yourself. So the third document is the advanced healthcare directive, and that's going to include a couple of different parts. The first is your instructions for healthcare, which sometimes people refer to as a living will. The second is the power of attorney for health care, and this is where you can name an agent to make medical decisions on your behalf. And some people do decide to pick the same person to be your power of attorney for financial affairs and your power of attorney for medical affairs, but they still need two different documents.

Zack Demopoulos: 29:41

Thank you so much. And you, I think that was the best brief explanation of all three things to have. So we're gonna, we're gonna keep that and share that with everybody, with your permission, absolutely.

Selma: 29:55

Well, thank you so much, Monica for joining us today. You have been a wealth of information. Education, and thank you also for the work that that you're doing with triage cancer.

Monica Bryant: 30:06

Well, thank you so much for having me, and I truly applaud the work that you are doing for caregivers. And it was a delight to have this conversation.

Zack Demopoulos: 30:15

Thank you, Monica, thanks.

Jodi Krangle: 30:18

Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers. You