Global Caregiver Advocates Bonus Series: Spotlight On India with Bhavana Issar

What does caregiving look like across cultures—and what can workplaces around the world learn from the caregivers they too often overlook?

In this episode, we continue our global caregiver advocacy series by traveling virtually to India for a powerful conversation with Bhavana Issar, founder of Caregiver Sathi. Bhavana takes us from an extraordinary motorcycle journey through the Himalayas to her deeply personal caregiving story and her mission to make the invisible work of caregivers visible. Together, we explore caregiving in India, gender and cultural expectations, the importance of community, and why working caregivers should be viewed not as liabilities but as tremendous assets to organizations. We also dig into Bhavana’s vision for “Future Fit Corporates” and why compassion may be one of the most important skills we can develop for the future of work.

Episode Highlights

[1:13] - We kick off another stop in our global caregiver advocacy series and welcome Bhavana Issar from India.

[2:52] - Bhavana shares the story behind Touch the Sky and her incredible motorcycle journey to one of the highest motorable roads in the Himalayas.

[8:35] - We shift from motorcycles to Bhavana’s caregiving journey and what her lived experience taught her beyond the statistics.

[10:45] - Why there isn’t an equivalent word for “caregiver” in Indian languages—and how family expectations can make caregiving invisible.

[14:42] - Selma asks about the biggest caregiving challenges facing India and the continuing influence of gender roles.

[18:36] - A surprising discussion about daughters, daughters-in-law, elder care, and the expectations placed on women caregivers.

[22:44] - We explore the difficult choices women may face when deciding whether to care for their in-laws or their own parents.

[24:07] - Zack reflects on cultural expectations in his own Greek immigrant family, and we discuss why asking for caregiving help can be so difficult.

[26:26] - What India and the U.S. have in common when it comes to aging, family caregiving, and wanting to remain at home.

[28:06] - Bhavana explains why caring communities matter—and how a “compassion deficit” can affect much larger systems.

[30:05] - We bring the conversation into the workplace and ask: Is caregiving finally being recognized as a workforce issue?

[32:35] - Bhavana shares why she left corporate life to create Caregiver Sathi and what it means to have someone “walk along with you.”

[35:28] - We look toward the future of caregiver advocacy and Bhavana’s vision for changing how organizations see caregivers.

[38:00] - Introducing “Future Fit Corporates” and the idea that organizations shouldn’t merely accommodate caregivers—they should recognize the skills caregivers bring.

[42:26] - What can employers do differently? Bhavana connects caregiving with two essential business capabilities: resilience and innovation.

[45:23] - We ask what real progress for caregivers could look like 10 years from now in a world increasingly shaped by AI and digital technology.

[48:15] - Rapid fire! Love, motorcycles, emotional labor, caregiver misconceptions, and one powerful hiring recommendation for employers.

[49:45] - Bhavana leaves caregivers around the world with a message of gratitude and recognition.

Links & Resources

• Global Caregiver Advocate Series: Spotlight on Canada: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401927/episodes/16849912
• Touch the Sky: The Inspiring Stories of Women from Across India Who Are Writing Their Own Destiny by Rashmi Bansal: https://www.amazon.com/dp/9386850702?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
• Caregiver Saathi: https://caregiversaathi.co.in/home
• Bhavana Issar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavanaissar/

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast and leave a review. Remember to check out our website at invisibleemployeeadvocates.com for more resources, and subscribe to our newsletter for updates! We’ll catch you in the next episode.

Transcript

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Bhavana Issar: 0:00

I felt that the purpose of my life was to shine the light on caregivers,

Unknown: 0:06

because they are invisible, and that our society needs to be able to see these invisible shoulders that everything rests on. You know, the rest of the society rests on it. Economies rest on it. In fact, nations rest on the idea or the work of caregivers. So it's time that we see that. Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62.5 million. 73% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working Caregivers, the Invisible Employees, is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach Demopoulos on the Working Caregivers, the Invisible Employees podcast as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos: 1:13

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening from whenever or wherever you are dialing in. We thank you. This is Working Caregivers, the Invisible Employees Podcast. I'm Zach Demopoulos.

Selma Archer: 1:25

I'm Selma Archer.

Zack Demopoulos: 1:26

Hey, Selma, how are you? I'm

Selma Archer: 1:28

great, Zach. How are you?

Zack Demopoulos: 1:31

I'm doing fantastic. We are really excited because we are going to continue today our global caregiver advocacy series. If you missed our first one, we'll put that link in the notes. We had spoken with Canada a little over a year ago, and today we are so honored and grateful to speak with India. So we're going to get started right away, and like to bring to the show Havna Isar. Hi, Havna. How are you?

Bhavana Issar: 1:59

Hi, Zach. I am so excited that we have been able to take our conversation from two years ago or more, and I'm delighted to be here with Selma finally. So looking forward to our conversation.

Selma Archer: 2:16

Great! I've been looking forward to meeting you as well. Heard so many wonderful things and exciting stories about you. So, I'm I'm just sitting on the edge of my seat.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:27

I know you're over 7000 or 11,000 kilometers, 7000 miles away from us. But tell us a little bit exactly where are you calling in from?

Bhavana Issar: 2:35

This is the national capital region of India, which is on the outskirts of New Delhi, a place called Noida. I'm currently based here. The last time I spoke with you, I was in Mumbai, which is the financial capital of India.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:53

Well, again, we are so honored to have you. You and I did meet a while back, and we've been so excited about having you on the show as part of our global caregiver advocacy series, but before we get started, I got to share with our audience something extremely amazing about you that I'd like you to kind of share a little more. When you and I spoke, you told me a little bit about an adventure that you did, something to do with a motorcycle, and then you told me about a book which I immediately purchased the book is called

"Touch the Sky: 3:22

Stories of Women Across India Who Are Changing Their Destiny, and has a little about something to do with riding a motorcycle to probably one of the highest places in the world. I'd like you to please share a little bit about that adventure and why did you do

Bhavana Issar: 3:44

it? I remember the the conversation that we had that easily went into a couple of hours that has something to say about you being a great conversationalist. Thank you. And well, my story that got published in the book. The background to that is that with six other women motorcyclists, women motorcyclists who scaled the highest motorable road called the Mana Pass, which is at the Indo Tibetan Chinese border in the Himalayas, first time ever for women to do that, and it was a ride that we got what is called a Limca record for, and more than the record, I think the experience and the journey was a challenge in navigating the external terrain, which is of course strenuous and challenging. But it was also, I think, equally navigating one's own inner terrain and discovering oneself. So to me, it was it was seminal. It came. In my 39/41, year, and so I think, in many ways, a mark of my midlife, and in many ways, a reminder that I need to finally claim, reclaim who I am. I think the work that I do now was very informed by that particular ride. At the same time, there was this author, Rashmi Bansal, who is a bestseller author who was crowdsourcing stories for this commissioned book that she had, and she was putting together stories of women that she thought came from various walks of life and were write what she calls writing their destiny, because that was the theme for which she was writing the book. I remember her reaching out to me through Twitter at the time, saying that she would like to write our story, and I remember telling her that I don't think my story is of any consequence because I have been a person of privilege. It's not like I had to fight to ride the motorcycle or I had to fight for you know like it isn't a dramatic story from rags to riches or something like that, and I quote her all the time for reminding me that every story matters. That it is important to own your story. So that's the background for the book, and she has a particular style of writing the book, I can understand that you may not have followed everything because it's a mix of Hindi and English, but it makes for very popular reading among a large majority of India.

Zack Demopoulos: 6:57

I will tell you, Google translation helped me out quite a bit, though, because I was so I was so engaged, especially in your story. But I was so engaged reading other stories that any parts I couldn't understand, I would Google Translate and I could follow. Thank you for sharing that. I got to tell you, you did it did change your destiny, and and and look at the work that you're doing now. So what what an incredible experience! And I will ask you this real quick. In America, I don't think I've ever seen a group of seven women riding motorcycles. Is this something common in India, or did you get some heads turning?

Bhavana Issar: 7:32

Well, you know, at the time that I started riding, when I was in my 20s, at that time certainly there were very very few women, and I have to say that heads turning or being distinctive or being one of the few women who rode motorcycles gave me cheap thrills. It still does, and you know, these days being a woman who is not particularly fit and has a lot of gray hair. Who rides a bike also gives you that kind of a little little trip, and I love

Zack Demopoulos: 8:11

it.

Bhavana Issar: 8:11

But I have to credit many young women, especially this particular woman who started this group called Bikerny, Which is promoting or encouraging women to ride bikes and motorcycles. So these days, it is quite commonplace. It wasn't so when I was a young person.

Zack Demopoulos: 8:35

Yeah, we need role models like that in in every parts of society, including caregiving, which is what brought has brought you to us, and so let's get to the mission of of the podcast. Thank you for sharing that story. By the way, that's just that's just an honor honor to hear it. But our mission for today is that we want to learn a little bit more about you and and what India is doing and and the work that you're doing in corporate, which is all very relative to our audience. So let's start off with your caregiver story. I understand you have one as as a caregiver advocate. Most caregiver advocates do share just briefly about your caregiver journey, but also more importantly, what has that experience taught you beyond what we usually read in statistics, many many of us can read lots of statistics that are out there in any country that we're in. But what do you feel your caregiver journey itself has taught you more than just numbers?

Bhavana Issar: 9:34

All right. So I think it was in this ride itself that I remember very vividly there was a point at which I had fallen off the bike. I had all the gear on me. I was somewhere above the tree line, and the motorcycle was on top of me. And there were many parts where you know the ride was harsh and the ride was difficult, and despite. All the bruises. I remember on multiple occasions thinking,"What am I doing? And why am I doing what I'm doing? What do I really want from this? What is the point that I want to prove? I did think at that time that I would like to make some meaning out of my life, and that ride gave me a very visceral experience of saying that if I can take a 200 kilo motorcycle to the Himalayas, I can probably push my body and my mind into other unchartered terrain, and I'm talking about 2015. And at that time, even the term caregiver was not very popular in India. So I'd like to highlight here, and I think Zach, I had spoken with you about this long ago, which is there is no term equivalent to caregiver in any of the Indian languages. What does that mean? That means that culturally, this is a role that is deeply embedded in our familial roles. You will very often find people say, "I'm a good daughter. I'm a good son. I'm a good wife. This is what good family does. This is what we do in our relationships. I do not want to be called a caregiver, also, because that sounds clinical, and that sounds like the person that you hire who will do this as a job. So the absence of even a name for this work, and the fact that, like around the world, it is highly feminized, which means mostly women do it. It is gendered, means that it is invisible at multiple levels, and it was invisible to me as well. So, a big part of my work is about working with organizations, with leaders, with organization development and leadership development, and it is about making visible that which is invisible. And I applied my learning, my academics, and my profession into my life experience, which at its very core, was that of being a caregiver to a caregiver. My mother was the primary caregiver to my father, who had a terminal illness. My father was a very fit pilot in the Indian Air Force, and most unexpected to fall ill, but he had a very rare neurodegenerative condition called multiple system atrophy, and in his 40s, and his falling ill that way had a deep impact on not just him, my mother who was the primary caregiver, and me who was the First born, it definitely impacted his mother, who outlived him by 17 years, and was also his caregiver. So to put these things together, I felt that the purpose of my life was to shine the light on caregivers because they are invisible, and that our society needs to be able to see these invisible shoulders that everything rests on. You know, the rest of the society rests on it. Economies rest on it. In fact, nations rest on the idea or the work of caregivers. So it's time that we see that.

Zack Demopoulos: 14:11

Thank you for painting that picture. And by the way, I'm still picturing a 200 kilogram motorcycle. Which, by the way, for our our U.S. listeners and and viewers, that's over 440 pounds on you, but you have come quite quite a ways from there. And also, thank you for also. I think Selma Havna is probably the first person who really kind of helped us understand why maybe people don't like the term caregiver. I love the way you said that. Like it's clinical, it's got the feminism around it. Really appreciate that illustration. Thank you.

Selma Archer: 14:42

Yeah, yeah, wonderful illustration. I, I was listening intently at your explanation of the question about caregiving and there not being a word for it in the language. I was wondering, and you said that you're trying to. Shed light on the whole invisible piece, so that you know people really get a clear understanding of what's happening here. In here in this country, we've had to do that as well, because it's been something that, for maybe different reasons, in terms of work, being a working caregiver, that people are not readily willing to come out and just visibly talk about, you know, because of perceived consequences relating to their work. But in terms of where India is today, what do you think are the some of the major challenges for India in terms of this whole arena of giving care to family members, and how is that moving forward in terms of you know here in this country we've typically also had women primarily leading the care arena, which hasn't changed much over the years. What is the case in India, and is are you going in the direction that you want to be going?

Bhavana Issar: 16:09

India is a very very large country, 1.4 and growing billion people. Very very diverse. There are pockets that are modern, urban, cosmopolitan, have global experience, and then there are parts that are exposed to certain modern ideas, etc. but traditional in their everyday operations, and then you know there is all kinds of education levels, all kinds of exposure, intensity of patriarchal values, rural access to money, etc. So you know there is diversity on every parameter that you can think of, and sometimes, for example, in a city like Mumbai, where I was, or now where I am, you can find that diversity even in a very small geography. The helper who comes to my home comes from a very, very she's a young woman who comes from a very, very traditional family, and was held back from further education because the father could not afford girl child education and wanted to educate only his son. Right, this is happening in my house and in a in a city, of course, they are migrants who have come from a rural area to the city, and I have to work with this reality with a lot of grace and compassion and mindfulness because I cannot impose my way of thinking. I have to be compassionate, and at the same time, I have to find a way of nudging not just the young girl, her mother, her father, and perhaps even her grandfather before I can get her to do anything. Right? Clearly, in India as well, caregiving is highly gendered. There are statistics that we can use as a measure of this. First, for example, there was a statistic in the newspapers many years ago, which said 78% of the caregivers are daughters-in-law. Wow!

Zack Demopoulos: 18:36

Wow! It's

Bhavana Issar: 18:37

an expectation that the daughters-in-law will be the primary caregivers. There are, you know, web series equivalent or TV serials, which will project daughters-in-law in a particular way. And if a daughter-in-law did not choose to do this, would be presented in a particular way, and that's the way stories are told or the culture is reinforced, etc. The second statistic that I will offer is that recently it was said that as people are aging, in order for you to age well and be taken care of in your old age, you need to have two and a half daughters.

Zack Demopoulos: 19:17

Oh my goodness!

Bhavana Issar: 19:18

Wow! Just see the choice of words and expressions. There are a large number of elder care companies in India that are mushrooming recently. So the startup ecosystem in India has been very active, and there are a large number of elder care companies, especially in the last two years, that have just mushroomed because clearly there's a need, there is an affordability, and people would like to buy these services. But

look at the statistics: 19:46

the one that it has become a business need means that it is going out of the family, or there is a need to buy these services. Second, most of these service providers. Their marketing spiel will be proxy daughter.

Zack Demopoulos: 20:05

Interesting term.

Bhavana Issar: 20:05

More proxy daughter, less like your son. Wow. Yeah. And even if it is like your son, the son is the person who pays for the service, but the person who does the service is a woman. Large community health workers in India are what are called Aasha workers, and Asha workers are volunteers, and most of them, 98% of them, are women. And like anywhere else in the world, healthcare is dominated by women, and there is this stereotype that women come with more empathy or with you know some inherent caregiving orientation and higher emotional quotient. All of which, I me personally, I think is humbug. But you know, continues to reinforce the gendered nature of this work. Finally, I would like to give another statistic, which is very telling, which is the female labor participation rate in India has grown very slowly. Was definitely impacted by COVID. Although there is a very large number of women who are getting educated, who get into the workforce, but there is a leaky pipeline to the C-suite, and many of them, many a very large percentage drops off at middle management, and does not make it to senior positions because of what was assumed to be their aspiration gap or their skill gap, but is actually caregiving Responsibilities, because the biggest drop happens at motherhood. Do you know that the largest migrant population in India is post marriage? Women marry and change cities, and change jobs. So motherhood, marriage, are all reasons, and then they could be all forms of caregiving that can add burden to the working women professionals, which leads to burnout, a loss of purpose, and therefore they are not in decision-making corporate C-suite positions.

Selma Archer: 22:44

Wow! Just so that I'm clear, have a clear understanding of what you just said regarding the primary expectation around caregiving is the daughter-in-law. Does that mean that the daughter-in-law must care for her mother-in-law instead of her own mother, or in addition to her own mother.

Bhavana Issar: 23:07

So, one this research that I've quoted is a few years old, and now it's a mix of daughters-in-law and daughters as the primary caregivers. And yes, the expectation is it will be first the average expectation. It is not necessarily. I mean, of course, there are outliers, and of course there are all kinds of people, but the average expectation is you will prioritize caring for your in-laws. If you will care for your birth family, then that comes secondary. It has led to large cases of domestic violence and divorces and separations. If women have chosen to care for their birth families, we've had caregivers in our community, women who took a stance that they will care for their parents and have had to give up their marriages on account of that. So yes, the expectation is there's a pecking order.

Zack Demopoulos: 24:07

Yeah. Wow. These expectations exist culture to culture to culture. I can actually relate coming from Greek immigrant parents, the expectations we had that you will take care of your parent, you are not going to put them in a nursing home, things like that. So I can only imagine the traditions and cultures that you have and the expectations. So thank you for sharing that. But how does that, in your experience, in your opinion, impact a woman in particular to reach out and ask for help for caregiving?

Bhavana Issar: 24:38

It makes it very, very hard. I can speak for myself as well. I think to sometimes be able to say, here is the role that I will play because we are a team as a married couple, and this is how we will distribute our responsibilities. Sounds

Zack Demopoulos: 25:00

normal,

Bhavana Issar: 25:02

and that I'm going to give value to my career or my work, or oh my God, my hobbies instead of caring for the family, and we have got to find other solutions that can be sustainable. Is a difficult conversation, and I think the challenge is that many women don't have this language. They don't have enough role models. I haven't seen my mother negotiate this. I haven't seen my older cousins negotiate this. I haven't seen older women or women around me handle this in a particular way, and it is never spoken about as well. So then I don't know whether what I'm doing is right or not, and I don't know how to do it either because it's not going to be a part of my education. It's not going to be something that I will see. And sometimes I might be the first person in the family who is changing some things. And I'm very very lucky to have a very very supportive environment. But there are many many women in India who have it very hard.

Zack Demopoulos: 26:22

Thank you for sharing

Selma Archer: 26:23

it.

Zack Demopoulos: 26:23

Thank you. It's that's powerful.

Selma Archer: 26:26

It is, and and you've studied caregiving at length over the years. As you look at and compare maybe India and the U.S. what are some of the things that jump out to you that would surprise in terms of things that are we have in common.

Bhavana Issar: 26:41

First off, that most people want to be cared for in their homes. Most people would want to transition from their lives around their loved ones. It's a universal concept. It happens to be that in the U.S. there is a certain normalization of the nuclear family, the individualization, therefore the nursing home facilities, and there was a normalization of the aged care setup. But the fact that there is priority or there is premium to being with your loved ones at the time of your passing is universal was the most significant thing that came out to me. And interestingly, before COVID, I used to think that maybe we will come a full circle, and it came true in in COVID, where you know around the world we realized that most people would like to be in their homes for a variety of reasons, but the fact that you know communities and families are structured slightly differently. Are of course well-known differences.

Selma Archer: 28:06

So, what do you think we could learn from our differences?

Bhavana Issar: 28:10

I believe community is very, very important, and I believe that it is definitely a gift of our indigenous living. I personally am not very enamored by the nuclearization of the families. It is useful because it helps people individuate and realize their individual potential. So it is important, but it has to be held in balance, and I believe that building communities is an important grounding human work. As we speak today, our country is in a political strain, stress. I don't know how much you are in touch with that. We have the youth challenging the political system and demanding certain accountability from the people in power. I believe there is a direct correlation between the compassion deficit at various levels around the world, and the fact that we do not have caring communities, and we do not index on care and compassion, is why we have breakdown of systems. We really need more caring, compassionate experiences, not just for children, but as communities, as people, and only then can we bridge the compassion deficit that we are experiencing in you know larger systems in. Decision making in powerful people, etc.

Zack Demopoulos: 30:05

Well said. Well said. My goodness, I love the focus on communities. You know, we've talked about so far family, personal. We've talked about community, talked about society, government. Let's get into corporate, which we understand you've done quite a bit of work, and you're excited to kind of share some things with us. So, in the U.S. Selma and I are encouraged that as we talk to guests and as we're doing more research, we're seeing more and more employers acknowledge that caregiving isn't a personal issue anymore. It is a workforce issue. So, curious, where is India on that journey? In your experience,

Bhavana Issar: 30:44

there are a large number of multinational organizations that have a significant presence in India, and all those that are U.S. or U.K. based tend to have a set of activities that are happening, or there is an influence of the headquarters in the U.S. and U.K. that influences the organizations in India. There are very large Indian organizations as well, which have traditionally been, you know, more benevolent and more caring and more family oriented, for the want of a better word, where the you know they are they are usually family led operations and there is a certain premium to be not so transactional. Let me just say that in that corporate environment, I think there is a mix. Organizations are, let me just say, flirting with the idea that employees are caregivers, and I think leaders are still saying the right. Some of them are saying the right things because it's politically correct to say these things, but I'm not sure if there is enough conviction that this is the reason why corporates and businesses should look at caregivers at the workplace. I think that's the that's the tension or the gap that we are navigating at this point.

Zack Demopoulos: 32:24

I can't tell you how how refreshing your honesty, your courage, your boldness, confidence is today. I can't tell you enough. Thank you so much for your response.

Selma Archer: 32:35

Yes, Bobna, you you quit your corporate role, and you founded your own organization, Caregiver Sati. Can you tell us about your organization and why you found the need?

Bhavana Issar: 32:48

So that motorcycle ride that reminded me that I can take an adventure. I can probably navigate a difficult terrain. I might not know the map. I might not know the answers, but I can go on the journey. Is why I started caregiver sadhi. So, at the very core of my experience, my lived experience, was the fact that I had closely seen a primary caregiver feel isolated and lonely and resourceless.

Selma Archer: 33:23

That was your mom.

Bhavana Issar: 33:24

That was my mom.

Selma Archer: 33:26

Yes.

Bhavana Issar: 33:26

Although interestingly, I have been a caregiver too, and although I have been advocating for caregivers, I never saw myself as a caregiver until my mother turned around and said that to me one day, and said, "Do you see yourself as a caregiver? And that kind of brought home the point. So, sati is a term that is used for a friend or a companion in pretty much all the languages in India. It's one of those rare words that is common across multiple Indian languages, and it means someone who walks along with you. So, caregiver sathi was the the core of the idea was that can a caregiver have someone who walks along with them is a friend who does not judge, who provides resources, etc. I was influenced by the fact that my father was 54 when he passed, and I was in my 40s during this ride, and I was deeply impacted. And I felt, what if I don't cross 54? What do I want my life to be about, and that led me to think of undertaking this journey, and that's why I founded Caregiver Sati. It is at the intersection of my life experience of being a caregiver or being a caregiver to a caregiver. My. Professional work, which is working with organizations, HR, and corporates, and I was, by the way, studying to be a coder or a techie. So, if I can integrate digital technology, I would be very happy because it still makes my heart smile. And finally, it is an adventure, so it brings together a little bit of motorcycle riding as well.

Zack Demopoulos: 35:29

Wow! Can you give us an example of of the work that you're doing, and then also 10 years from now, what do you hope to have achieved in India with the work that you're doing?

Bhavana Issar: 35:40

Yeah, or

Zack Demopoulos: 35:41

maybe or maybe five years from now. How's that?

Bhavana Issar: 35:44

Yeah, I will tell you. So, like I said, the milestone was that what do I want to do before I turn 54? I am 52 today, and for the last two years, I have been thinking about this. And actually, I was very amused when I chanced upon very interesting research that said women who are 49 and do not have any major ailment today in today's times are likely to live up to 92. And the second thing is that it is a mental psychological milestone for children who lose their parents young to cross their parents' age, right? And it was a personal journey for me to realize that I am getting fixated on my dad's age, and that's not the only parent I have. I have a mother who is a force of nature, who turned 75 this year and claimed that she was planning to turn 100. So, and if that is what I have to do, then I clearly have to look ahead very differently. My initial goal with caregiver Sathi was to establish that caregiver is an entity, an important entity that needs to be seen with a gender-agnostic lens, and this is a person who exists in all walks of life, not just societies, families, but also workplaces. It is by far the most important thing that we need to shift if we want gender equality. And your having 2x chromosomes does not make you a better caregiver, right? We have Zach here. So, having come as far as we have come from a time when, if you looked up caregiver on a Google search in India, you would not find anything that was culturally appropriate, relevant of India available to caregivers in India to a place where today people can find us and most of our community members come to us because of word of mouth or through an online search or because there is so much work that we have done that the idea of a caregiver is well adopted and understood by many healthcare organizations, etc. It is still unclear that caregiver is whether that is the professional or it is the family member, and there is a divided opinion about it. And I suppose that will take its own time, and that's not for me to solve. The way that I look at the next few years is that I'd like to focus my energies on the work of caregivers, or caregiving, or care and compassion in workplaces. So we have an initiative called Future Fit Corporates. Future Fit Corporates was started as a series of conversations and research that we did a couple of years ago to understand how this whole issue of caregiving that gets highlighted during Women's Day, International Women's Day can be taken beyond eighth of March, which interestingly is my father's birthday, to a conversation through the year. How can this be something that is fundamental to how organizations are designed? Organizations need to be designed with the fact that employees are family members who will have various caregiving responsibilities throughout their careers. It is not just women. It is not just caring for children. It is not just caring for the older people, but as whole human beings. We are also caregivers, so that's the first one. And in the second season, which we recently shared a dossier for, was an exploration that how organizations that are future fit will be those who recognize the value that caregivers bring. So organizations are not just accommodating for caregivers, which is what we did in season one, but organizations are better for including the competencies and the skills, and the perspective that you can get only from caregiving. For example, if you have not cared for a vulnerable person, you cannot have the compassion, or the empathy, or the planning skills that are required for this job, and the compassion deficit that I spoke about in leaders, in large organization founders, in political leaders, is because we have stopped indexing on caring for the marginalized, doing things because they are the right thing to do, not because there's a business case for it, not because there's a market for

Zack Demopoulos: 41:38

it,

Bhavana Issar: 41:38

but because it's the right human thing to do, because we are thinking, caring beings, right? So, future fit corporates will be those organizations that are anchored on these human values, which are muscles that we build only when we care for those who will only care forward, they will not do anything for us.

Zack Demopoulos: 42:08

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah, I love I love the outline. You know, identify, see them, hear them, support them, and then make the case that they're not a liability. They are a complete asset to your organization, and let's plan for the future. Wow, I love that. Thank you for sharing.

Selma Archer: 42:26

Yeah, those some great messages that you have for future fit corporate, given the backdrop of what you just said. Because a lot of times the business case is the motivator. The business case is also the the blockade and preventing employers from doing things because they think it's it's just too expensive. What advice or what suggestion? One one small thing that employers HR, not just in India but around the world, could do today or tomorrow, that would have a huge benefit for their working caregiver employees.

Bhavana Issar: 43:07

So I'm happy to look at it from the lens of business and the lens of hard-nosed longevity of business and profits. Okay, I don't like it very much, but let's look at that lens. Yeah, and what is called the business case? A good business requires two things. One, it requires a resilient organization, and it requires innovative cultures and innovative innovation as a way of sustaining itself. The model of a future fit corporate actually, and this is where our research comes in, recognizes that an organization requires these two critical competencies or critical skills in order for an organization to be a profitable, sustainable organization in the long run. You will be profitable if you can be resilient and innovative. Right now, let's look at both these things. Being resilient requires you to be predictable, to be able to structure, to be grounded in a certain way, so that you can respond to the curved balls that the business may face, right? So there's a certain steadiness to resilience, for the want of a better word. Being innovative, on the other hand, is being mischievous. It is pushing the boundaries. It is disrupting. It is doing everything that is not so steady, right? It is about saying, you know, whatever we have done right now is not okay. We must do something else. Let's figure out this new venture. This. New geography, this new product, this new way of doing things. So innovation is at loggerheads with resilience, and a good organization will hold this tension together. You will not be one or the other. And who are the most resilient and Innovative people,

Zack Demopoulos: 45:23

caregivers, I love that. We can that that was that was we we did not plan that by the way. That just happened naturally. Thank you so much for that. One more question, and then we're going to have some fun with you. Not fun, but we'd love to do a little rapid fire. But just one more question, because you are so so passionate about this, so so confident about it, and you do have a great vision as you've laid out.

Let me ask you: 45:54

if if if you, me, and Selma get on this call again 10 years from now, what would have to change for you to say we finally are treating caregivers the way they deserve to be treated?

Bhavana Issar: 46:10

What a great question! And I have, and as you were reading that question, I realized I didn't fully answer your previous question. So quickly, let's catch that, which is that you know? What do I want to do next? What I want to do next is, I want to be able to find a meaningful, growing business in the world of AI and digital technology that is humane and innovative enough. Yeah, because we need to have access to resources. We need to have financial resources to be able to build the future generations. So, what I'd like to be able to do, and this is linked to your question as well, what I'd like to be able to do 10 years hence is be able to look at the youth and the coming generations, if we can teach them, if we can learn from them, and if we can teach them compassion in the times of digital technologies, cyber security, and AI. Because I believe compassion is a learnable skill. It is a renewable fuel, but it requires replenishment, and it is not something that can be taught in a classroom. So my next 10 years are about building the learning capacity for all of us, especially the new generations, the art, the science, and the significance of compassion.

Zack Demopoulos: 48:05

I agree with you. I think compassion can be taught. Wow, that was fantastic, Salma. Take us into our wrap the fire around.

Selma Archer: 48:15

Okay, are you ready?

Bhavana Issar: 48:17

Yes, ma'am.

Selma Archer: 48:19

Okay, here we go. What's one word that describes caregivers?

Bhavana Issar: 48:24

Love.

Selma Archer: 48:26

One misconception about caregivers that drives you crazy.

Bhavana Issar: 48:31

That you need 2x chromosomes to be a better caregiver.

Selma Archer: 48:35

A book every caregiver should read.

Bhavana Issar: 48:38

I would say Bhagavad Gita, but. But but I think there is the the Mahabharata, the epic Mahabharata. It's an epic from the indigenous culture, and I think it's the story of our challenges, not just what we face in the world outside, but our inner turmoil. So it's a discovery of yourself.

Selma Archer: 49:03

One habit that helps you recharge.

Bhavana Issar: 49:06

Motorcycle riding.

Selma Archer: 49:08

Oh yeah. One word to describe caregiver sati.

Bhavana Issar: 49:15

Disruptor. The

Selma Archer: 49:18

well-being of the caregiver is critical to the well-being of the patient because

Bhavana Issar: 49:24

emotional labor is what heals, and it is important to heal and not just cure.

Selma Archer: 49:34

And finally, one small thing employers can do to

Bhavana Issar: 49:40

intentionally hire caregivers.

Selma Archer: 49:44

That's a good one.

Zack Demopoulos: 49:45

I I cannot believe we're almost at the one hour mark. We could speak with you so much longer, and hopefully, maybe down the road, we will have that 10 year or five year conversation before we let you go, and before you tell us how. People can connect with you. I do have one final question. Selma and I would really appreciate it, regardless of what country a caregiver is living in today. Who's listening in? Because we do have an audience that is global. What is one message today you would like to leave with caregivers?

Bhavana Issar: 50:21

We are nothing without our caregivers, and we are grateful for you. And we see, if not for our caregivers, we would just be no different from machines, and that's no way of living. Wow,

Zack Demopoulos: 50:38

that's that was a great message. That was that was awesome. Thank you so much. Can you please share with our audience how people can find out and learn more about you?

Bhavana Issar: 50:47

Absolutely, you can learn everything about caregiver Sathi through the website and our social media. We are present on most social media, YouTube, Instagram. Caregiver Sathi is spelled as S W A T H I. You can reach that on LinkedIn as well, as well as on X. Reach us on LinkedIn. Reach us through our website, and you can reach me. My name is here on the screen. I have the privilege of being the only Bhavnay sir on LinkedIn.

Zack Demopoulos: 51:21

Wow, that's something you and I have in common. I'm the exact demopolis on LinkedIn, so that's

Bhavana Issar: 51:27

that's our flex, like my daughter would say.

Zack Demopoulos: 51:32

We are so grateful for your time. We're so grateful that you touched that sky up on the Himalayan mountain, and that your destiny has changed, and that you are following your destiny. I'm just so honored, and thank you for your time.

Selma Archer: 51:45

So nice to meet you. Thank you.

Bhavana Issar: 51:47

Yeah, thank you, Selma. It's so lovely to meet you too. And Zach, you know, I I think I mentioned it to you as well at the time that I saw your book for the first time. I had this surge of envy. I was like,"Oh my God, this is the book that I should have written, and I remember telling that. And you know, competitive that I am, I'm like, "Oh my God, I got beaten on this. But I remember writing to you, and you said something that was so graceful and so compassionate. You said this should not stop you from writing your book, and I hope that you will write your book.

Zack Demopoulos: 52:30

Thank you for sharing that. I was just going to say you probably do a better job than Selma and I did. So go ahead, go for it.

Selma Archer: 52:37

Go for it.

Zack Demopoulos: 52:38

Thank you for sharing that story so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and for the work that you're doing.

Unknown: 52:45

Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of Working Caregivers, the Invisible Employees podcast, every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, InvisibleEmployeeAdvocates.com, to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book, and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers.