Host 1:09

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SPEAKER_02 2:15

NSA, Dying Corps, and Triple Canopy were the companies I worked for. And then then it was really just, you know, what other contracts are there kind of thing? And it's just the business development kind of thing. So all my guys, as I'm living in Maryland, I'm still living in Maryland, and the guys that were trans or uh getting out of the military and going into contracting were talking about this whole paramilitary ground brand stuff. I was like, okay, let me let me what's the deal? So they give me the information for the contract, the guy who was recruiting, contractor himself. And we talked to each other on the phone a little bit. And he's like, okay, let's set up a let's set up a meeting and we'll we'll talk to you. I'll let you know more about what we're doing and see if that's what you want to do. And of course I had to call him and I had to like the the bona fides is like, hey, such and such, talk to me. He gave me your number. That's that's how that kind of started. And we set up try to set up meetings, but he's always coming or going. And so am I. I I either just get back and he's just leaving, leaving, and he's in DC, he's at a hotel, he's getting ready to catch a plane, all this other stuff, or I just got back. It's like, well, I can't get there right now. I'm in LA or something like that, right? And so we can never sync up times. And we did that maybe two or three times of deployments. So we're crossing paths, and uh he's he he at one point just said, Well, I'll tell you what you do, just sign up for something on on the agency website, sign up for a job. Any any job is fine. And I was like, Can you do that? So I go to the website and go to the job careers, and and that's oh, oh, let me sign up for one. So I try to go in somewhere, I look on the paramilitary side, operational stuff. I whatever I I was gonna pick, whatever I can write a resume to. And so I picked one, and I think it was a protective operations thing. I think might have been something else operational, but I fill it out, submit it, and because he said, uh, just submit one. I'll just I'll I'll give our HR a heads up, look for your resume, and they'll pull it when it gets into their purview. So I deploy again and go work again, Afghanistan or Iraq, one of the two. Come back, and then there's those messages. Hey, we we just looked at your resume, we have a job that you might be well suited for, and all this other stuff. And I thought, since the only thing I did recently was apply for the CIA position online, I thought, okay, that's that's what it is. It they finally got my stuff and they flagged it, bright people have it, and and this is what it is. It's the paramilitary side of the house. And it's not a whole lot of information that's given and this building, this address, interview for the job that you applied for, and and that kind of stuff, very vague, very ambiguous. And so go to the interview, and as I'm going through the interview, they're just asking me simple questions, you know, looks like you've done some good things, you're very qualified for the position, and also very like a normal interview. And I this whole time until I asked the question and they answered me about what it actually was was for, I thought it was the for paramilitary stuff. So I they said something about motorcade operations or something on the protective side of the house. And I was like, Wait, wait a minute, what what are you guys doing? What what are you asking me to do? What's the job? They're looking at me like we you applied for the job, so well, that's what we're interviewing you for. So they're looking at me like, you know, you're what are you dumbass? And I was like, no, I'm serious. I so I thought this was the paramilitary side of the house. Is this is this what it is or no? They said, Oh no, no. This is then they explain, oh, this is the protective operations, protective agent, or something like that, global response staff, and they explain everything that's happening and what what it is. And my thing was, since what I was doing was, and I've probably seen run into some of these guys in Iraq or something, but just didn't know that's what they were doing. And actually, when I get my my my my badge, my pass for the for Baghdad. When I go to Baghdad and work for NSA, it's at the CIA headquarters there, and they're the ones who are doing the badging for everybody. So I was there, probably ran into the guys, and didn't know that that's what they did. And I said that. I was like, I didn't know you guys did that. And they said, Yes, that's what this is for. And it looks like you're still doing it, and uh you look perfect for the job, and that's why we called you. And I was like, Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll I'll try that. And again, back to my whole ignorance of the processes and who's doing what. I was like, Well, if I don't like this, I'll just go for the ground branch or something like that, right? At one point, and I probably could have done that, but it again, it doesn't quite work that smoothly. Apples and footballs, yeah, yeah. So it it actually could have worked out that way for me because once I got on board, made it through the GRS training and got on an deployment cycle. Oh, yes, the GRS training. Oh, yeah, not yeah, at the time, not definitely gonna talk about that in a minute, but uh I'll let you finish. Yeah, not as top tier as they wanted to make it seem. But finally get to my first two assignments and did the job, great, loved it, saw some saw some gaps that I felt obligated to correct in the training pipeline. Because I went through, so here's there was a criteria, and at the time, I think it's the same thing right now, but at the time there was a uh position for the staff guys, and then there was the contractors who were mostly not hired the same way because they're contractors, so but the criteria was different. Their criteria was a little bit more like previous experience and more management experience on the staff side. I happen to have both, and but not so much. So when I go through the training, I'm with guys that are like been in the military, not hard skill MOSs, the Air Force or something like that, and now they're managers at like some big hotel chain or something like that, or you know, doing that kind of work. That's their that's that's what brought them to this this spot in time. And some of the guys were were were good in the sense that they realize that hey, you guys have like a pool of information, you're your resource, and this is easy for you, but I'm gonna have to ask for some help on this. Whether it was tactics, shooting or whatever it was, combatives, they're like, You guys already you guys already know your stuff, so I'm at a disadvantage here. I need to know what you guys know in order to pass this course. So that was a lot of that. So then I got to know the guys that were there, all of them, and the various experiences they had, which wasn't all like military tactical experience. And then now when I looked at the pipeline to get into our first deployment, I was like, I'm fine with this, but I don't know so much about he's gonna be, you know, you're not setting him up for success. He did four years in the Air Force, he's senior manager at a major hotel chain.

Host 9:41

And but so that's who the CIA was bringing on to be blue badgers and team leads?

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Managers, yeah.

Host 9:49

Wow, that's wild.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Yeah. So I don't so the the idea was managers are managers, you got your place, and you're just gonna manage manage the team. Team of pipe hitters.

Host 10:02

You're not you're not the one who's gonna go out on the managing a hotel and then managing dudes in a foreign, hostile, denied environment running intelligence is the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah, same thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Jesus, dude.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

So the the uh so the the on the staff side too though, there was it could have been any number of criteria, uh requirements, but there's also waivers for hiring staff officers, right? That could be waived, and that could be waived, or you that could be waived because you're gonna get it when you go when you finally go out, right?

Host 10:32

But and then while you're the reliance, bro, I had to spend 21 years or 20 years in the military to get here, and you worked at a hotel chain. That creates some animosity on your part. Oh, yeah, I can imagine, dude.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Well, you know, not so much with me. I understood that, like, okay, this is the what what your your process is, but what we need, we do need to do more for this guy before we launch him to the field to to run a team. That that that eventually changes over a period of years, but that's what I recognize right away.

Host 11:07

So before we dive into that aspect, you get hired on with with with CIA's global response. What is it? Global response? Global response staff. Global response, yeah. So you you you have to go to initial training, right? Because you don't have any training in your life and dignitary protection or anything from your time in the unit. Right. Let's talk about let's talk about the training. What was what was the CIA top-tier NFL training program that you put you through? This is a crazy story that you told me we're podcast prepping, and my mouth hit the floor.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

I was like, Yeah, it was I say JV. It's like you guys are hyping this up, and you're telling me in the interview, the job interview, and now in office, and I'm talking to guys, and yeah, we're we're like, we're the shit, we're the top tier stuff, man. And this is we're like top priority, and you know, we're we're the next best thing since sliced bread kind of stuff. And so in my through what I've been through already, it's like okay, not not so much, but okay, you know, good job on thinking so much of yourself. So unfortunately, I'm tainted by where my experience, like that never is gonna be anywhere I'm gonna be again. So, but um, but I'm I'm around guys who are like, yeah, we're the shit. Yeah, and we've done this, we've what so here's another another kind of crazy thing about that the environment is you've done a lot of stuff. I haven't done nearly what you did, but we're in the same place, so we're the same. Like, literally, they're saying that. It's like, I just want to punch you in the face so bad, right? And so those are some of the things I'm trying to get at the end of the day.

Host 12:42

Was it maybe guys that designed the training program?

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Maybe shocker. Yes, so it was, and it was not so. What I'm being told, and I have an open mind for all this stuff. What I'm being told is it doesn't matter what you guys knew before you got here, this is the way it's done, like because we're so special, we're so elite. This is what the most elite thing is.

Host 13:10

It says no elite people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

And I was like, oh man, I don't know about this, right? But okay, uh, you know, talk, talk, talk yourself up as much as you want. But okay, I got some things that I I need taking notes on. Okay, this is not this is not where if you're gonna say that, you need to change this program, right?

Host 13:32

Not only that, because you had been overseas in Iraq doing dignitary protection for the State Department, like in a high threat environment, and your experience at Delta and you know, which gets trained on dignitary protection amongst many other things, shooting hard skills, soft skills.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

And the the thing that the biggest thing they were telling us at the time is for for guys like me who are who think they know it all, they're telling me this is uh depend it doesn't matter where you've been, this is this is the language we're speaking in on our in our group. This this is what they're doing in the field. And to your to your point, when you mentioned it, it's like, well, I just came from my radically to get a growth of this course. I don't remember this. Anybody talking about this over there. But if that's what you're saying, then okay, I'll I'll try to open my mind and try to get into it. I'll we'll we're gonna do this thing. And a lot of it, and I'm I'm not just focusing on like the the actual training that we're doing, but it's like so I I understand what's happening here, and I understand what I need to do, but there's more stuff that that guy should be exposed to. It's like if this is it for him, then he's gonna deploy after we graduate here because that's what they're saying. As soon as we graduate, we can't deploy until we graduate.

Host 14:48

I think it's important for the audience to hear. I mean, we skipped over your triple canopy stuff and NSA and and Dynacor, but dude, you were working in denied areas. I mean, teams were getting hit, people were dying, like, you know, you you were a a part of contracts where people were getting killed. And so, like, you had not only world war training, but you also had a lot of real world experience doing the job in you know, in a war zone. So I I think it's important for people to hear because I I glanced, you know, I skipped over that part, but I I think as we're talking about this, you know, it's in it's important to bring up.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Oh, yeah. And and so that was that was kind of my thing. I wasn't so concerned about myself because I already knew I'm gonna go and I'm not gonna do any of this stuff. I already know what everybody's doing, but that guy doesn't. He's never been overseas yet. He was in the Air Force Army, whatever their experiences were. And that that guy needs to go through some more different stuff. And and and I'm asking the questions about is is there like can we can we send them to this other training course or all these other things? And the answer was no, this has been vetted. We've we've gone over this over and over again. We've got the contract set a certain way, and all this other stuff. Once again, man, once you finish this, vetted by the Navy, you're qualified, right? And so that was always my thing. It's like we're setting up people for failure, not success, because there's so much training that uh so the time and the money spent to do what we were doing could have been spent a lot better doing other things, more practical stuff.

Host 16:28

What was it about the training specifically?

SPEAKER_02 16:30

I know you told some specific stories, but so it was combatives, and then really the concept was uh forget everything you know, learn this. This is all you need to know. You have no tools in the toolbox, you need one tool in the toolbox, that's this. I said, Well, you guys are so elite that you're the only ones that think that way. Because usually it's like, okay, hey, let me give you some tools for your toolbox, and you could choose and pick whatever you want, whatever you want to do, right? When the time comes. First time I ever heard that. And so the hype and everything about it. I figure out that the guys that are going through there with experience, just like me, are similar to me, are just cooperating to graduate to get deployed, and then they forget about it, overseas to go, and we do what's right in the field. So they're thinking they're that they're setting everybody up for success, and it's successful because we're successful in the field, and that wasn't the case at all. They're doing what they need to do in the field, which is none of this, and eventually that changes, but it takes several years to get it.

Host 17:36

But you got like you were in the training environment, and they like tried to gig you a couple times, and one of the dudes was getting ready to kick you out. Tell that story.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was almost the end of my GRS career in the training because I was a safety violator, and that was their big thing, right? Safety violators. So routinely, I was doing whatever we were doing. I there were like like not not there wasn't any physical flags, like penalties in a football game, but every day, like flags. Hey, I need to talk to you. And okay, what happened? And then he described what happened. I was like, no, that's not what happened. That's not what I did. I was there, I don't remember doing that. So he's like, Yep, we saw it. I was on the catwalk, saw you do this, and like, no, that's not what happened. And I explained it to it, and he was like, no, that's I saw it, and you can't convince me otherwise. What I saw something else. I was like, All right, here, sign this briefing. The the safety violation thing, like they're you're acknowledging that you're a safety violator. And I was like, So I get it, because I did hear everybody's like, ever we we've our cars, our course is so hard that the tier one guys come through here and don't make it through. I was like, whatever. Right. So this is but this is what I'm thinking now. I'm doing it's like, well, this is how you're doing that. You're just targeting them to say you're safe to violate sign here. Now I got paperwork on you, right? And I was like, Well, some of some of the other guys that were with in my class, another guy, seventh group with me in my class, another guy, second ranger battalion dude, air marshal, as well. So he was the same second ranger battalion, air marshal, same guy. So those two guys were like, How are how are you not? How are you getting picked, you know, all these safety violations? Like, there's no way. I was like, Well, that's what they're doing, and that's I guess that's my ticket out when they say I've got enough paperwork that you we're gonna kick you out. And they then they get to say, we got another tier one guy who didn't make it through our course because it's so hard. And I was like, whatever, you know, if that's what it is, then I guess I'm getting another job somewhere. That's fine, you guys can have it. And that went through the whole thing. And I I did I started writing things on these safety things. I was like, you can what is it, concur or not concur, but you still sign it? And I used to write sentences in there like whatever it is that got me to this point, I'm signing this paperwork. This is not what happened, and and you know, stuff like that, and then sincerely John Hancock, you know. Then I started doing that smart ass shit. And because I didn't care at the point, I was like, okay, if you got paperwork here, here you go. Want me to sign 10 of them right now, and we'll just get it out of the way. You know, I was uh then I got to that point, and they actually grab my my folder at one point. They they get your stuff and they take it to DC, and it's like, okay, these are the guys who we think are gonna pass, these are the guys that are not gonna pass. What are we gonna do with them stuff? Uh, I was probably on the we're not gonna pass this guy list. And the chief at the time comes out and he's talking to us, and he's telling us how important the course is and how significant the course is to pass this thing to get you know this prestigious training behind your belt to do the work that we're doing and all this motivational stuff. And I was sitting there like, well, off sidebar, no, to that I we had to talk, you know, like when he's not talking to us, I was like, so if I get it, you're saying all this stuff, but if if I hear you saying this stuff, that guy that doesn't know any better, he's hearing you say this stuff, then this is it for him. This is the most important elite stuff that there is. He doesn't have to, but that's not true. And the whole concept of you only need one tool in your toolbox, I was like, no, nobody does that. And even your guys, why it's called a toolbox because you put a lot of tools in there. I guarantee your guys in the field are not talking this way, acting and doing all the things that you're doing in training, in reference to talking, how we talk, this is how we conduct operations, right? And do not remember seeing that. I came out of Iraq to come to this class, and this is not what's happening. That's not what I saw. I don't know anybody who's doing that. I don't know anybody who would do that. And so I have those conversations, and he talks to us about this is you you have to pass it, no matter what you think about this course, you have to pass this course to be a deploying agent for us, a special agent. It's like, okay, to get your classifier as a special agent, this is what you have to do. So okay. So cooperate to graduate. He's like, no, don't. I was like, that's what it is. You just told me that's what it is. And I ended up passing, they ended up passing me. And and they they for pretty much said that, you know, this is not this is not dealt with force and all that stuff, so it's totally different from what you're you're you're familiar with. I was like, you know what? Shooting the gun is shooting a gun, but CQB is CQB, and diplomatic protection, VIP protection is diplomatic. Protection, VIP protection everywhere. There's like standards in this industry. This is not one of them. You're the only one doing this in the industry. And that I that you can't convince me otherwise that everybody else is going to fall in line with this at one point in time because it never did. And eventually, eventually, training finally evolves to what is more practical, but they really you really eat themselves up with standards of performance that really don't matter.

Host 24:07

What what were some of the things they were doing, like that nobody else was doing? Like what were they trying to teach you that nobody in that industry was using? I'm curious because I have a dig pro background too.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

So how how literally how do you how do you handle a weapon? Where do you you know so don't flag somebody? Okay. And and be muzzle aware. Simple little task. It's like, okay, I'm good. So but if you if so for me, for what happened to me on one of my things, so I'm inside, I'm I'm answering the call for our our case officer who needs help. So I run into the building to go find him and waiting for my partner to come escort us back out. They're gonna provide covering fire while we're I got the the protectee. And so I go into the room, find this guy, pin him in a corner, and I protect him with my body. I'm facing the door because that's the only way somebody's coming in here, good or bad. And I hear my guy coming over there, and there's a call that you make. Blue means friendly. So you say that a couple times, so blue, blue, blue, and you answer back blue clear, like okay, I hear you, come come in. And guy rounds the corner, and so realistically, I'm gonna keep my gun at the door because even if I hear that and we were wrong, and he's entering another door next to me. I don't know who's around in that corner. So he comes to the corner, I see, I recognize him, elevate my weapon, and it was like the over the threshold. So over the threshold, he clears my line of sight, weapons back at the door, he comes over and we start getting ready to go out, and then we go out. So what they told me was you flagged your partner. Uh you flagged your partner. I was like, Where did I do that? It's like, I don't know, I didn't. Or did I? Where where did I do that? He said, when he came in the room and you were in the corner, and also I was like, no. So I know exactly where my muzzle was. It was on the top of the doorway. It wasn't pointing at him anymore because yeah, that so what they wanted me to do, so they have this thing called high port. That's what they wanted me to to see me do. Like my partner's in, and I super elevate my gun, like high port, like it's face toward the ceiling. It's like, well, I don't need to move my gun that far, it's already off him at the top of the top of the threshold, right? I'm not gonna do this when all I have to do is that, then back on target, right? And he's like, Nope, I saw it. We all saw it, we all talked about it, we saw you do it. I was like, no. So okay, whatever. Sign some paperwork, and I do that.

Host 26:39

So it was things like that, which is a navy tactic.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah. So they they wanted us to do all those kind of things. Then there was this thing called the the combative stuff. So we're going through the the house when we're going through the small unit tactics stuff in the in a in a house, and the way they want us to do this is we have our primary and it's tucked under our shoulder, and then we have what's called a wing guard up here in case there's a non-threat, non-shoot threat, and then we can just posiform this dude, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:11

So knock somebody right, so we'll run through the house like this. And I was like, okay, this is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

I need both hands on my gun, and then there's the high port, and then there's the posiform thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Like smack somebody with a muzzle, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

And there was things like that. I was like, I I feel silly walking through the house, you know, doing CQB like this. But if this is what I gotta do past your course, to then effectively have some effect on changing this stuff. Okay, I'll do it.

Host 27:42

And it was it was little things like that, but it was it was still can you can you explain a little what what GRS does, kind of like in a civilian terms?

SPEAKER_02 27:50

So it's protective operations, and it's but it's on a more clandestine scale. So do more with less. So regular motorcade, you have a lead, limo, follow at a minimum, and then then there might be a cat team. So there's like four vehicles worth of people, three vehicles worth of hitters and protective agents, and then the limo. That's a that's a more traditional thing. Traditional VIP stuff, high, high, high visibility, regular motorcade stuff. So in GRS is more clandestine, more low profile, as low profile profile as you can get. So you're not really you know bumper to bumper anymore when you're in when you're driving somewhere. You get some space so you don't look like you're together. And when you get out of a vehicle, you're dressed in whatever like local garb, or if it's a if it's a like like a finance ministry or something like that, then you're in that kind of clothing. So you're blending in. You don't look like you know you're you're tactical, geared out, and you know, all that kind of stuff. It's I'm a protective agent, and I'm also, but I'm also in a clandestine role, so we don't look like something that needs to be hit or attacked. And so it's a protection, but it's it is probably and they don't teach that necessarily. That's like an on-the-job training on learning the clandestine side of things and trying to be low profile. So a lot of guys are learning that in the field on how to do that kind of stuff. What should I be wearing? So you wear either the the local garb or you wear business casual suits and all that kind of stuff. They're learning those things in the field, and and that's that's pretty much the extent of it. You're doing everything, so it's a lot of the the things that you're outside of that four-man element that you're also coordinating with partners on the ground. So if military's on the ground, you're talking to the military to get support from those guys. So, to the extent that you can, you get as much other outside help as possible. So that's part of the staffer's job to do that kind of stuff. Talking to the army, we got helicopters standby, we got these people over here, we got an army patrol somewhere in the town, and they're gonna they know we're in town also. If we need help, we can call them and those kind of things. So it's really the coordination piece behind that kind of protection is huge.

Host 30:08

So when you initially got hired onto that CIA GRS, or were you it was that a supervisory element? Were you coming on as a supervisor or team member?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Team member, yeah. So the the the staffers, so there's an official supervisory special agent slot in GRS, that that puts you back in DC because you're in charge of other special agents that are doing the job. They're the team leaders in the field. And so initially you're a team leader in the field, you're just a protective agent right off the bat, but your your job is in the field, running a team in the field. Then the supervisory special agents are running a team of protective agents, but you're not deploying ideally, and you're just sending your guys to meet meet the requirements overseas. I deployed because I can do I can I can send guys overseas from overseas, so I was always deployed. I made it a point to be in the field with the guys. So I know if they had but they brought you on as a team leader, right?

Host 31:10

Yeah, okay. Yeah, you just said you're like a regular protected dude, but I you were a team leader running a team.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah. And so my my thing was if if they have complaints, because it there was a lot of that too. Guys would come back and complain about stuff, and you have no reason no, there's no way that you know about it. It's like you gotta take their word for it. And a lot of times it was just like they're asking for stuff that wasn't really necessary, but the way they were talking, it's like this is necessary, and we need to get a new widget, get a new gun, or whatever it was. But in the field, they had nothing to say about like if they had complaints, I was like, I already knew. I was like, All right, I just went on a couple missions myself. It's it's not what's going on. So that was a little bit I was in an advantage because I was there for them to say anything, really. So I'm here if you if you need to complain about something, we want new stuff, or if we need to do something differently, yeah, that's what I'm here also to to listen to. As in my supervisory special agent role, that's yeah, so I want to know all that stuff from all the guys, all the teams, contractors, staffers, whatever, whoever it is, and then also interact with the uh agency folks that we're providing support for. You know, what are we doing good? What do you need to see differently? You know, what do you see us uh needing one?

Host 32:28

Did you guys fall under the chief station?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and for the most part, the director of operations were the guys, the folks, guys and gals, who we were who were providing security for, those are the folks that saw exactly what we were doing and how we were doing it, and if they needed something different. So if we were if if we were jeopardizing you know the type that of human collecting that they're trained to do, then okay, how do we support you better? So I was there for to answer all that mail. And that really was was a you know, we can some of our guys were capable to do that, like others, like more, I guess, non-traditional type of protective operations. And some guys just just very narrowly focused. I'm doing what I'm trained and nothing to do. And and also as a contractor, they're concerned about operating out of the scope of their work and all that stuff. And I was like, I will never ask you to do anything out of the scope of your work. If we need to change your way you're doing business and that affects your scope of work, I'll talk to the contracting office back home and we'll we'll get it squared away. I already know all the dynamics of all this is going on, how you're doing, what you're gonna need to do, and all this. I'm not gonna ask you to do anything outside of your contractual obligations, stuff like that.

Host 33:48

What were your non-negotiables for letting someone work on one of your details?

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Uh acting like a jackass. Yeah. You know, there there was a, you know, if if they weren't there, if they weren't mission focused, and they were participating in all the other stuff that was going on, you know, the drinking, the salsa nights, you know, at the the base bar and stuff like that, and they weren't focused on the mission. They weren't so all that's all I asked of all the guys. You're three or four months here, just you're here to do a job. You're not here to socialize and make friends and all that stuff. You're here to do the job. If you do that other stuff and still do your job, then great. But your primary focus is is the job, the mission, and all that stuff. So pretty easy tasking. Do what you're asked to do, and that's it. And then if you can squeeze in all the other stuff, then great. So my non-negotiables would just be not ready for the mission. Like, so at any time, you like a base, a base attack can happen. You gotta be ready. Don't get so shit-faced that you're you're not. I can't rely on you to do anything in the middle of the night when the the rockets are falling out of the sky. Because nothing ever happens when it's convenient. You get a base attack, and all those things are at the most convenient inconvenient times. They know it. That's how they planned it. That's why they planned it when they planned it. And that was it. Interaction between our the people that we were providing protection for professional conduct. A lot of our guys, you know, typical, you know, knuckle dragger, you know, they're just setting their ways of doing things, and just if and if somebody somebody if is and it happens a lot, it happened, it happened a lot, where they they're driving somewhere and they're driving too erratic. And the person in the back seat's trying to either have a conversation with a person or they're trying to take notes, and they're trying, they're just driving too erratic because they're driving like a maniac, and we've got to travel fast because if somebody gets a beat on us, they can't hit us if we're moving fast. It's like, okay, so but your guy in the back is doing his collecting his job. You need to drive according to how and to accommodate him and how he needs to do his job, needs to write notes, he can't don't make him car sick and those kind of things. And I get why you want to do what you want to do, but now you're driving for that reason, and who's in the back seat? And a lot of guys just couldn't do that either.

Host 36:25

Was everybody that was coming on those GRS contracts earlier? Were they all from the tier one community?

SPEAKER_02 36:31

No, they were coming from all kinds of places. So a lot of them are coming from Blackwater and then other contracts. Blackwater actually had, I think they had uh a contract at one point too. So all these companies are are doing similar things, and they're they're told they're gonna get more prestige or more money. I'm not sure exactly what they were getting paid to work for us. It's like okay, but then it became almost like a then it became a good old boy network kind of. It's like, hey, I got this job over here, I'll bring you over, I'll recommend you, and all this other stuff, and you can come work with us and all that stuff. And we had guys that eventually were like not as qualified as other other people, and but they had time in country, time behind you know, in Iraq or Afghan, one of the two, and they had been doing the job, and that's how they they like cross-load over.

Host 37:26

And that's gonna be important for later on in this conversation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

So that we have what's typically called in in our little small little community, non-qualls. It's like everybody pass the test to get here. I got it. But are you really qualified to do the job? And so that was kind of a sidebar kind of conversation within our our groups that and they they taught tell me too. It's like I don't want to roll, I don't want to roll with this guy, I don't want to go with that guy on this mission. And I was like, oh well, what's wrong with him? It's like, well, he's he's not at a level where I need him to be. Like, he's not equal to me. I I can't trust him to do what we need to do. I was like, okay, cool. So for whatever reason though, even if you're thinking that, like, yeah, you I'll split you guys up. Go who who are you comfortable rolling, you know, going out on this mission with? And then they name names. You can be this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy, but not him. I am not gonna do that. That's no, because I feel like going home at the end of the day, at the end of this trip, and he's I'm not comfortable. So, okay. And some of the some of the case officers, some of the human collectors that we're protecting out there would would come to me and say that too. It's like, I'm not so comfortable with that guy. Come up with us because he's just too much of a, you know, he he's not blending in. He's he's very stuck in his ways, and he he doesn't talk to me when I ask him a question. And that's kind of the difference between all the other protective operations, right? You actually have conversations with your your protectee. Usually that's like a no-go. Like State Department, you don't talk to the person in the back. Unless they address you, they and they address you like they'll you know, which which is sometimes happens. Like, how you doing, Bob? Doing good, boss. That's it, right? And you don't engage them in conversation, they're just gonna do that because that's what they do. But you don't engage them in conversation, you don't talk to them about what's good and what's bad and and and anything, you don't tell them anything. It's very professional, very dis you just don't talk to those people in the backseat. And some of the guys were good at that, some of the guys were like, they're like, So how are you doing? And no, we're talking we're we're talking human collectors, right? So they're trying to elicit some information. It's just wow, they they can't help it. They just try to elicit some information out of you. So they'll ask questions like how do you how do you think, what do you think about whatever operations or whatever? And they relax and they're like, Oh, you really want my opinion? Like they're thinking, oh, you want my opinion? And then they just start, you know, uh vomiting all kinds of information, and they're like, whoa. And then I get I get talked to. It's like, man, your dude over here, he's like, he's got the ass about all this stuff that we're doing, and that's when I have to go talk to these guys. It's like look, they don't engage in in conversation and all this other stuff. It's like they gotta do, they got a job to do, we gotta get them there safe and and back. That's all you have to do. Some guys are better at that, the the little interaction with with another person, but they're they're the guys that are doing their jobs, the collectors, how's how's how's everything back home and all those kinds of all the kind of things that you know they try to get you to open a conversation with? Everything's good, you know. That's it. And so there's there's yeah, the guys who who are good are able to talk to people like that, and and sometimes that dialogue is is almost important, especially when you try to push the profile a little bit. And when you get asked by a collector to, hey, and I want you to go in with me and go sit with me at the table, because we're gonna act like we're here together on a like a just a social thing. And so that person has to be able to get out and talk, talk stuff without sounding military and have a conversation with their their case officer, they're protecting. Other guys are gonna be in the area watching things going on, and that's kind of the whole purpose of this thing. We want to watch people arriving and departing, and we want this to look like a normal meeting. We were there together, and then here comes your here comes your your your guy that you need to talk to, and he's gonna join us for lunch, and it's a really even flow conversation. We're not trained in like that kind of stuff, like tradecraft, those kind of things, but some guys just have that ability to do it, and some guys are actually have some training in it. Maybe not from the agency, but from prior prior life. And some of the guys that we had that were good at it were some undercover somewhere. Like we've had several of those guys, just some of the best guys we had. They're used to working undercover, they were comfortable in it. That's what their life was. And these are guys who like were in their previous lives, in their law enforcement lives, they're they're you know, they're they're working crime, crime stuff, and they're in embedding into gangs and stuff like that. Those those guys, and those are the best guys at it. And they were comfortable, they were having conversations, they can dress the part, they can talk the part, and it wasn't any due to any training that the agency gave them, it was all their previous training in the the law enforcement agency they came from. But yeah, loved it. Loved those guys, and those, those are the conversations I had with all of my guys, is especially when I'm looking for and when I'm talking to the the collectors too. It's like, who who do you who do you want to go with you? And I'll just task Gorg that way. And they were comfortable with some guys, uncomfortable with others, and I mean guys that look maybe out of shape, they're like, I'm not comfortable with him. I don't think he can handle himself, much less the team. It's like okay, whatever the case is, okay. If you're not comfortable, then he's gonna go with somebody else. So it's all those conversations with people. It's like whatever you're doing, whatever persona you're you have out there, this person isn't comfortable working with you. Not a good thing in this business. So you need to change some things about how you're interacting with your your protectees.

Host 44:00

What was it like to supervise a group of contractors? I mean, essentially they can just walk. You know, it's not like in the military where some did.

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Yeah. And I send guys home. So that was one of the things too. This is the performance standards, and if you don't meet it, if you don't meet that threshold, then I'm gonna send you home. Or if you're not focused, if you're not mission focused here and you're just concerned about doing other things other than the mission, then I don't need you here.

Host 44:30

Did you ever get pushback from DC when you sent people home?

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Yep. Yep, because they're managing the the contractor budgets and and time on the ground and meeting criteria that they're supposed to be on the ground, certain number of days and all that stuff. So they're they're doing that, and I get it. But I was like, okay, well, send them somewhere else. I don't know. Keep them keep him employed in DC, but he's not coming here.

Host 44:52

How do you how did you how did you balance discipline with morale? You know, I'm listening to you. I mean, six months is a long time to stay focused.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Well, so the guys that are working, they understand that. So that they were upset a lot of times the lack of action, the lack of discipline, like holding people accountable. That's all I was doing, holding people accountable. And then they seen guys get away with stuff, and then that that just that kind of builds a bad environment where, well, if he can get away with that, they're not sending people home. I can do whatever I want, kind of attitude. And then so when I show up, I was like, hey, let's talk for a minute, and hey, keep keep this up, and I'm I'm gonna send you home. And and I actually got some responses like, well, you can't send me home. It's like, okay, keep it up. You'll be on the next thing smoking. And then eventually that happens, and they see that happening, and that kind of straightened everybody up. It's like, oh shit, okay, you serious? And he can actually do that. There I was getting complaints all over the place, complaints in in the the the station. So I was at all the headquarters overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they're calling our my bosses back in DC. And I was like getting those phone calls and emails, hey, give me a call. And this is my chiefs, deputy chiefs back in in DC. And it's like, hey, what's going on with this guy? And I tell them, Well, this is what I have going on with this guy. And he keeps it up. He's going home. And they're trying to say, well, you know, we can't go. They're trying to meet contractual obligations. That's their focus. And I was like, I so I get it, but I'm not going to keep this person here just to meet contractual obligations. He's not doing the job, so I don't need him here. So get somebody else out here. And I'll let you know when it's coming. But okay, I'm sending this guy home on this date, have somebody on a plane come in the other direction. And they also were in the in the mindset were, well, he's not going to leave. And so me being on the ground, it's like we don't have enough people as it is. We're already under our obligations by contract numbers already. And we're getting ready to go lower because now we're approaching like the holidays, which always guys don't want to deploy during the holidays, and we always go under and our contractual numbers and our obligations. So it's like, well, I'm going, we're we're getting ready to go under anyway. So I don't need him here. Send somebody else who wants to work. And yeah, had had up and down all the way. Talk to the guys, talk to management, talk to station management, the guys, the the bosses in in the field. Didn't have any problem with that. Got complaints all kinds of times. Yeah, I was probably one of the most hated, but when people started seeing that, that's how that's how kind what whatever you want to call it, my reputation or whatever it is. It's like, okay, no fucking around because ninja's coming out for the next four months.

Host 48:00

I think Sean Ryan said it though. You were probably one of the most respected supervisors at GRS.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Yeah. Be because of that. So a lot of guys were, you know, just like, well, here's another guy, experienced dude. He's a blue badger now, so he's gonna he's gonna cave. And all I gotta do is complain to the somebody and and he'll stop. And I didn't. And they said, Okay, well, no shit, man. He's no shit. And we gotta do what we gotta do. We gotta behave. But they also did that too. They behaved while I was there, and then they went resorted back to them their cells when I left, and somebody else was there because they knew who it's like a it's like a kid, right? You it's like you gotta behave. Dad's in town, right?

Host 48:39

So were you in charge of all the GRS teams when you were in Iraq? And I and I guess and then Afghanistan when you went over there.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

Yep. In most places that happened pretty early on, so probably a couple years. Well, until I get to Afghanistan, that was my first permanent, like charge in charge of the country's worth of uh GRS guys. And I've done it, but it was only just to replace a guide for his vacations and stuff like that. That was the first time, so that was three years into it. I started doing that, and then once I did that, I didn't come out of that senior position anywhere I went. So all the other Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else on the room.

Host 49:14

So you went from running a team to running a a country full of teams. Yeah. What what did I mean, what was your leadership? Were you like a somebody that really got into the the different team aspects and traveled around a lot and and rolled with them? Or did you were you really hands-off, kind of lead from afar?

SPEAKER_02 49:35

What was your I was I was uh hands-on as much as I can. So my reluctance to get get a position at DC was part of that, or my reasoning for that. I'm not gonna put in for positions because it's gonna help me get 14, 15, move up the food chain. I wasn't I wasn't concerned about that. I honestly enjoyed, took pride in doing the job. Very probably one of the most prestigious jobs you can have, right? But I also saw the abuses, so I was almost uh offended by that. It's like you don't take your job seriously enough. This is a pretty important job, and we're literally lives matter based off and they make it or break it based off of your performance. And a lot of so for those that didn't see it that same way, like they they place that much importance on their job. All right, I don't need you here then. And I'm not gonna tell you to go take that person out and expect that kind of performance and and put that person's life in jeopardy. You're going home. I'll deal with all the the after effects, whatever, whatever happens.

Host 50:45

What was it like working with and or for the CIA? There's been a they've been depicted all throughout the movies. I got my own personal opinions based on my time overseas as well. But what what was your experience overall? Was it positive? I mean, the CIA is known to be pretty slimy and cutthroat. Was that your experience or was it a mix?

SPEAKER_02 51:03

There was a little bit of that, yeah. Yeah, so it it so the uh if you're an employee, you're it's all very cutthroat. So you're based off your you're you're rated and off your performance, off your individual performance. Regardless of if you're on a team or not, it's all individual performance driven. So when you have that environment, as soon as you you're you're in competition for positions and jobs, it gets pretty stupid sometimes. Then there's the the block checkers, there's those guys. I gotta do this because I I gotta check the block in order to get another position. I gotta have this in my resume when I apply for another position. I was never that way. I joined to do the job that I was doing, and that's my only intent to do the job. Even the even my buddies over on the paramilitary side were like, hey man, anytime you want to come over, we're let me know when you're done, babysitting. Yeah, yeah. I was like, dude, I so I felt obligated to make a difference, and I couldn't in good conscience like leave without and maybe it was hubris on my part, but I thought I had some sort of influence in what was happening and the changes that were happening. But I actually did, I didn't need any recognition for it. I you know, I did what I did because it was the it's like changing the way we do business, whether it was tactics, procedures, or whatever it was. So the info the the information that I provided, and the it's not like I ever said, hey, this is this is this is screwed up, we're screwed up, and then left left it at that. It's like, you know what, we can do things better. This is where we're at, and this is what we can do to get better, and provide it, provide a solution. If I was gonna complain about anything, I always had provided a solution. Saw a you know, honest assessment on what's happening, how can we do it better? And yeah, we can add, we can even add more to our plate if we do it this way. So bonus benefit to everybody.

Host 53:02

Did you really have to deal with a lot of biocracy at the CIA? I mean, you and I were yeah talking about a grenade story last night, which I thought was pretty, pretty interesting. And basically, Afghanistan, there's where the agency had their compound, and there was a hotel that that got hit. That compound got hit a couple times. It was funny because the incident we were talking about, I had been in that hotel the morning before. But essentially they go to attack the compound, right? And I'll let you tell them.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

Yep. So the uh the headquarters there in Afghanistan is getting attacked, and so time differences and all that stuff. I go, I go to DC that morning. I'm gonna catch a flight later that day. And every time I went, no matter if they gave me any information, feedback, updates, or whatever, I still went into headquarters, checked in with the bosses, the chiefs and deputy chiefs, and said, Okay, what's what's happening out there? What do you need me to do? You got any guidance, anything, any concerns, things I gotta look at, uh things I gotta be aware of, people that are problematic who are who we're dealing with. Yeah, that's so that was an honest conversation. Like, who's who's complaining the most over there? You know, from the from our customers, from our our operation side of the house, all the collectors is somebody complaining because we'll address it. And so those are my questions. And usually it was nothing. They're like, Oh no, I don't have any guidance. You you know what you're doing, you'll we're not concerned about that. And it's not like I needed to hear a concern of theirs that I wasn't gonna perform. I was just okay, what what's happening? What's the environment? What's happening, you know, what's going on? What are you concerned about? Like numbers. Uh, everybody's worried about numbers. How many people are in country and why are we having issues, you know, putting people in country and all that stuff. Are we meeting the meeting the mission? Are we are we having to cancel missions because we don't have enough guys? You know, that kind of stuff. And it was, you know, always something like that. But the morning I went there on the the day that of the attack, I'm asked, as I'm asking these questions, like, okay, so before you get on the plane, I need you to take a look at something. So they give me the write-up, the the sit rep on the on the attack at the the hotel there. And it was almost like a very uh sense of pride, right? Like badass, right? The guys stepped up and did what they needed to do. I find out later on that's uh there were some other things going on that weren't so good. Guys not stepping up and actually I'll I don't know, I'll call it cowardice, turtling up, you know, not engaging in a firefight and uh and an attack and all that stuff. We call it turtle up, so they they were getting shot at and then they ducked behind cover and didn't come out. But the guys that did, awesome. So he bad, it was a complex attack. And it was the worst situation you can imagine. So they were dressed in army ACUs, so they look like army guys in land cruisers, and they even had antennas from wherever they got them, the big whip antennas on the bumpers that you saw everywhere on military vehicle. So they they look the part dressed in ACUs, they had IDs from other like attacks and stuff like that. That they they have IDs, it's it's not them, they're not really looking at the IDs, they just show it in the window, and the guards are like, okay, yep, army dudes, army ID, come on in. A closer look at those guys, and it eventually happens, closer look at those guys. They're AKs with like four-ends that look like M16s and all that stuff, M4s, SOT mods, or whatever. You know, they have all the parts and pieces attached to their AKs that look like a regular army gun. And the first two vehicles make it in past the first check initial checkpoint, and the one the last one gets trapped and stopped. And to the to the kudos to the our Afghan partner who stopped them in the trap and stopped, because he he recognized the the vehicle as a bolo. They were they were whether it was the vehicle or the license plate itself was stolen, and he recognized the license plate as one that was on the beyond a lookout for in the area in Kabul. And he stops the vehicle, and as he goes out to question these pieces, now the two vehicles, other ones are are already at their whatever you want to call that. They're they're ready to start a fight and attack the Ariana, and they're just waiting for the third vehicle to get there and then they start the assault. Third vehicle gets trapped, the or Afghan guy trained. We so we train those guys too, to be the first ones out on the street, to be the face of Afghanistan and all that stuff. So there's no Americans there just to check on them and stuff like that. But the Americans are further back on the machine guns and all that stuff. And good, good, good thing about some of the things that happened were that initial gunfight. So F Afghan, Afghanistan dude comes around the corner and he's starting to question them from behind a jersey wall. He's standing behind. And he's starting to ask them questions, whatever the questions that was, they weren't answering whatever it needed to be. And then they get out and then they start shooting at him, and then they all start getting out of the vehicle. So there's all four doors open on this land cruiser, and four people are getting out of their vehicle. They shoot at this guy, he he goes, he ducks behind the jersey barrier, and he gets his gun and tries to shoot back somehow. But there's a shed, like a guard shack, jersey barriers, and that that he's trying to you know peek around and get shots at. And right away behind him is the guns manned by American security guys that we have securing the base. Also 240 starts shooting up this car and shooting up the guys at the checkpoint, which also triggers past them, those two guys, thinking it's go time. Time time to start the attack. They start the attack. It was a Friday morning, I think. So off day in Afghanistan. Not necessarily an off day, but their weekends are Friday and Saturday. So no operations are planned that morning. So our other guards or Afghanistan guards are sitting around at the gate, like they're not expecting any visitors. And and where did why are these two army vehicles parked outside our gate right now? And so some of them were a little curious, and like, are you have an appointment and those kind of things? Those those first guys that were just stood up and walked to the car, they were the first ones that were shot. And then assault is on. The assault keeps going. The the one of the one of the things they wanted to do, there's this huge what it was a I'm gonna call it a King Kong wall, but the the the fence and this one part of the the gate. So this is where we were able to, this is the only gate that you can actually get a truck into to get like large supplies, construction, equipment, and stuff like that into the the the compound. And so but this wall, because that was the only gate like that, was gonna be it was like reinforced concrete and all kinds of stuff, but it really just looked like a it's a roll gate. I guess in part of the attack plan, one of the guys was wearing a suicide vest, and one of the guys goes to the this gate, he's gonna blow, he's gonna breach this gate, and he he goes, he goes up to the gate.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

That's kind of funny, but he goes up to the gate, cracks off his vest, you know, hugs, hugs the fence, hugs the gate, poof. Dust cloud, right? And dust clears, gate's still there. So little score marks and everything, but that that's not that gate's not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

And so they don't know initially, so boom, big old dust cloud, and guys are coming in what they think is expecting to be a hole in the in the wire, uh the fence, and it's like, oh shit, just running into this wall. And I think there was a second guy who tried it too, with no success. And then so they focus their attention to go around to this other the other gate, and as they're doing that, they run into this guy. This is this is the first bad like dude that turtles up. So our Americans are up in this tower and they're usually faced out, but the attacks happening behind them. So at one point they return fire and they're trying like that. So they're looking at what they think is army guys, too. So I don't know what was going through their head, but they're starting to get shot at. And rounds are hitting their tower, and then they duck down. So whether it whether or not they knew what was happening, so explosion, gunfire, people are dead and dying, they're getting shot, the locals. And who knows? I never talked to that dude because I was reading the report back in DC. And so by the time I get there, it's the day after, and we're going through, you know, questioning and all that stuff. But I find out what's actually happening. That guy turtles up, and we never see him again. So everybody that's looking on camera thinks, okay, well, he was hit. We need to get help to that guy and go get somebody on that gun. Another tower does the same thing as the assault force, the bad guys are making their way to the other gate. They shoot at that tower, he goes down, and come to I I'm almost positive he wasn't hit with a bullet. He was just turtling up because he was getting round shot at him. And he has around the corner, there's another tower, they start shooting and engaging. Bad guys shoot back at him, he turtles up. So everybody that's watching this on security cameras thinks down there's a guy down there, he needs medic, he's down, and this guy is now down. Holy shit! So the GRS dudes, two on the front steps of the of the main entry into the building behind the wall. This is so this is a drop-off pickup. They're getting ready to do actually take, I think it was the the chief out on a on probably office call somewhere, probably to the palace. But so they come down and they see what's going on, they see that dude and the tower go down, and they're like, We gotta do something, right? That dude just went down. He's either shot or something. Somebody needs to get up there and get the gun up and treat that dude. So they they make their way outside the gate, and as soon as they get outside the gate, these two guys are moving to to see what's happening, to go to that tower to get the gun up and to get in the fight, right? Because they hear all the the stuff going on, and they're they're they're relying like everybody else. Well, the the the static guys that are there, the guards that are there, they they got this, and we gotta make sure that the chief doesn't come out right now and there's stuff going on, there's an attack going on. But so they make that decision, then they go out to to outside the gate and they start making their way around the corner. So bad guys, bad guys are coming around one one side, or two GRS heroes are coming around the other side, get to the tower and also engage the threat, and they see army guys, their ACUs kind of like give them pause for a second, and so they didn't level their guns right away, because this is the first time they're seeing them, and that short pause, uh, one guy gets shot and gets shot in the plates. So he goes down, it's like, well, I guess I guess that's what they're dressed in today, you know. They don't return fire and they don't go to the the the tower, and they go right back around the fence. And another third URS dude who's some cool shit. He he's on there's this outcropping building that you can get on top of the roof and look in front of the the gate on the other side of the gate without going outside the gate. So he does that and he's checking on the guy in the tower, and he sees the guy in the tower, he says, Hey, are you okay? And he's like, Yeah, I'm okay. Well, he's talking to him, like, okay, well, they're right in front of you. Like, like, do something.

Host 1:05:13

Get that gun up, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

He and he didn't. So he was getting shot at, okay. It was hitting his tower and stuff like that. So the guy that was looking, he he was he sees our guys coming back around the corner. And now the guys that are coming over, they're lobbying homemade grenades over the fence. They're just randomly, as they're making their way across the to the front gate, they're just lobbing grenades over, you know, randomly, just throwing grenades as they're they're making their way over there. They saw our guys going to the fence, so that's what they're gonna follow them in. And our guys are on this side of the fence, and our spotter, I'll call him the spotter. He's like, Hey, you guys got grenades? Right? We're not supposed to have grenades, but they hit it's like, yeah, Roger that. And so they get their grenades out, and they're normal M67 grenades, fragment fragmentation grenades, and they start doing the same thing. So they saw the the grenades are flying over the wall this way, and so they're like, Okay, we got some of that too. Hey, have some of this, right? And the guy, the spotter was saying, you know, like throw them now, like they're on the other side of you, like right now. So over the wall that went, and then he's saying, Hey, back up, back up, back up toward me, toward me, toward me. They're making more advanced, they're advancing, right? Throw now, throw now from the rest. So they're just pulling pins and throwing grenades over the wall, which turn turn the whole tide of that fight. And another guy who who made it to the tower, he's got a 203 grenade launcher. So he's firing uh look, I think it was like a standalone uh 203 grenade launcher. So he's he's he actually the one that can see him from the tower, and he's just launching rounds at them. Eventually he he he kills the guys that are coming around, and then the one dude, one one of our American static guards, he's got his his counter assault force sweeping around, and he's starting to close with also the bad guys. So bad guys that have nowhere to retreat, the ones that do are shot and killed, and then the the guy the other guy in the tower killed the two guys with the 203.

Host 1:07:21

What what year was this?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

2011 maybe?

Host 1:07:31

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Something like that, yeah.

Host 1:07:34

I think I was in country 100. Or I just left country 102.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

I'm not sure if it happened before or well, it had to happen after the coast because that was my first in country. So yeah, it had to be 2011 ish, I'm thinking. Maybe 10. 2010, 2011 time frame. There the that that place was attacked a couple times, but that was the one that ACUs, they wore ACUs, uh stolen so the the Uh they can come to find out the IDs that they had were from an attack on Phoenix uh down the road. That some the patrol that was outside the gates there were were returning from their patrol and they were attacked while they were right off the highway, right off J Bad Road at Camp Phoenix. And that's where they got some of their guns, that's where they got some of the uniforms and the IDs.

Host 1:08:27

Yeah, I was at Phoenix when they we had we took a complex with seven suicide bombers. They came in through the entrance and the exit and made it almost all the way in. Didn't work out too well for them. When you've spent years serving others, it's easy to put your own health on the back burner. At Prestigio Wellness Group, they are changing that. Founded by a former special forces medic, emergency medicine physician, and a hormone and longevity specialist. Dr. Bosley's mission is to help veterans, first responders, and motivated personnel nationwide to take back control of their health. This is why I personally trust Presidio Wellness Group and optimizing my health goals. With telehealth appointments available in nearly every state, Prestigia Wellness Group can offer you personalized hormone and peptide therapies right to your door. Grab Dr. Bosley's top five supplement guide in the show notes to start fueling your momentum, and then visit Precision Wellness Group.com to get started. Listeners, please mention Vanguard50 for your 50% off, your one-hour in-depth consultation with Dr. Bosley. For our home viewers, you can also scan the QR code on the screen right here to directly lock in that Vanguard wall deal on your initial telehealth or in-person visit. Take a tactical approach to optimize your health at Precision Wellness Group. Let's talk about Coast, man. That's a that's a pretty pretty black eye. You and I talked about it last night. So for those of you that don't know, the Coast bombing was depicted pretty well in what Zero Dark 30?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:47

Yeah.

Host 1:09:48

And it's I think it was the largest loss of life for CIA, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

Yeah.

Host 1:09:53

Can you kind of tell us a little bit? A little bit about, you know, uh what was going on and and and why and for those of you that don't know, basically what was happening in Coast is they were bringing in an asset that was supposed to give information on Osama bin Laden. And what happened was is the chief of base who was not operational, who was an analyst, who had been promoted, pretty much forcoed every security protocol that was in place to help safe. And I mean she ended up losing her life, but she unfortunately got a lot of people killed with that decision as well. But can you tell us a little bit about what happened and I'll have some follow-up questions?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

Yeah, so the lead up to that, and as I'm getting ready to go to Afghanistan to be the the senior GRS guy there, the chief GRS the in charge of the country, I'm asking people who are there who in Afghanistan, what issues do you see, and all this other stuff. And and this is back in DC, the guys that are rotating back. And I asked I asked a few guys to go out with me. So I'm asking different staffers to go out with me to help me assess what's going on. I need I need some honest brokers to give me like no shit responses. And so I picked a couple guys and and they went out there, and one of the guys went out in front of me. So he's gonna go out there and he's gonna. He he so he wasn't a new to G he was a he was a contractor for us for years in Iraq. So he wasn't new to the job. It was his first staff assignment because he went went from green to blue. And so one of our more experienced guys was with him. I knew that guy went to we joined together and went to all kinds of training with the guy that went with him. And so by the time I get there in early December to Kabul, I'm trying to get I've talked to guys that were there and what their concerns were, and I'm emailing dudes, and everybody's coming back with these responses. And a lot of it was we need to get control of the operational environment. We need to we need to stabilize that, we need to make it more consistent and all these kind of things. And I don't I'm really not, I don't understand what they're saying and what they're talking about yet. It's like, but I have all these notes I'm taking. I was like, okay, well, I'm let me check this out. What about it? What about it? And I'll wait till I get there to see what about the operations that we're doing and how we're going about doing things. And one of the things when I got there I noticed was the inconsistency of how we how we were checking people. And I guess the thought process at the time was we'll we'll we'll let the chiefs at their bases manage things the way they are. Because they were. And if if so, if you go from Kandahar to Coast to Jabad to Asadabad and then Mazar Sharif or uh Farah, totally different environments. Uh so people that you talk to and the environment itself literally is different, uh, different people, different ethnicities in Afghanistan, all that stuff. So I I got I I get that, but and I got it at the time, but there were some things that were there were kind of hamstringing us to do our jobs and having things different. So I get there and I talk to the uh our senior contractor there, and he's telling me that I I can only send he's going through this whole chart of people of GRS guys, and I these guys are rotating to Coast and they keep going back and forth. That's like okay, from a continuity perspective, I get that. But the reason was because of the changing policies, searching, and all that stuff, and you can't have the guys going too many places because there's too many different ways to do things. So there was color codes and number codes, all kinds of stuff. But in no case were the guys able to provide any information on it, they were just being told this is what we're gonna do. I have a color code, I have a number code, whatever it was, and if they at this number, then it means you do this level search. And so I was like, we should be the ones dictating that based off of the threat. And so those are my questions. What's the threat environment? What is the threat? How what you know? Describe to me all these the your criteria for for searching some anybody. And none of them are like okay, none of them started out with, well, so it's threat-based. This guy's a so and some of it was associations, and most people over there are associated somehow with with the Taliban or somebody because it's it's a family thing. And it's Afghanistan. So that's kind of what was going on. It was very uh different, base to base. And I and my thing was okay, well, I I understand what your criteria is, but this needs to be more consistent across the board, otherwise, this is how people die. You start confusing people, somebody does the wrong thing, you thought they were gonna do something else, that's how bad things happen. And but that was that was how things were managed there, and it was handled by it was more of a contractor specific or concentric thing. So, and I get that from our guys that were there, they were used to like diplomatic protection kind of stuff, and so they were tasked task organizing that way. And I was like, Well, I I get that too, but that's it's not what we do. So it doesn't matter if you're in Kandahar, Coast, or or Bogram Air Base, the the search criteria should be consistent across the board. You're not telling me any reason it can't be the same way. So those that's this is on my checklist of things to do. We're having problematic relationship problems between the GRS team and and staff at this base, and and they need their their equipment on this other base is falling apart, their vehicles are crap, and maintenance here, more people here, less people there. There we had at the time what we called flyaway missions. So we'd get a bunch of guys, they're all camped out in Kabul, all literally sleeping on top of each other in crowded spaces, and then get a team together and fly to like Mazar Sharif as an example, do whatever operational acts that need to happen there, and then fly back, and then back into this pool. And so for me, I was like talking to management there, the the chief station on down, chief of support, all these guys. And just saying, if we're going there that much, look at the look at the amount of effort we're having to fly these guys. We we need aircraft to and from, and that we're we have aircraft flying everywhere on all these things, and then we have to get logistics stuff to bases, and then we have to get to the remote remote bases where we're actually dropping in supplies to some of the bases. So why don't we just get a base in Mazar Sharif and some other places, spin Bulldog down south, and all these other harat. I mean, let's let's make this permanent because they don't need they're they're this isn't good living conditions, it's it's horrible. So then they're like, Oh, okay, yeah, we we we didn't know you guys can do that. Like, yeah, you want to set a base up somewhere? I'll I'll put people on it. If you need people our guys, GRS guys, then yeah, absolutely. I'll be part of the planning for that and get you numbers and based off of what who you're sending and what type of operations there are. And yeah, let's do it. So we actually throughout the year of 2010, we opened up bases and guys pushed out less people at the hotel and those kind of things. So it actually worked out, but it was like a change thing at the beginning. When I started saying that, first of all, I got pushback from everybody. Like GRS, GRS guys, my own guys who are used to doing a certain way of things, a certain way. I was like, no, you're gonna no, you this this is gonna change. I got pushed back from the from the outside. It's like, well, that's that's never gonna, it's never gonna fly at headquarters. We're not gonna be able to do that. But and I just said, Well, I'll do my part, you do yours, and I think it's gonna be fine. And then Coast was another one trying to find out, uh, like our new guy, uh uh, has Scott doing. So the guy that went in with them, uh, very experienced. He came on board the same time I did, very experienced, and he's like, Well, we we we probably have some issues he's gonna have to work through with the uh the the base commander out there because she doesn't she doesn't think enough of us to listen to what we have to say in most guys in most cases. And I heard the same thing about two other guys who had rotated out there, very experienced guys, and so they were getting ready for Balawi. He's the guy who the suicide bomber eventually blows himself up at Coast kills seven of our folks. They got ready for him several times before that, which is part of his controlling our our guys instead of us controlling him. And he make a meeting, cancel it, set up another date, and then cancel it. And eventually when he comes to the base, he he cancels one meeting because he said he was in a moped accident or something, and he had he's on he's you he's he's walking for the with the use of a cane. So so so to me, I'm hearing all this stuff, and it's it's uh it's it's it's a the information that was available was also very compartmentalized for a lot of reasons, but also the coast at the time, there was there was only so many land commuter stations that were available, and they were literally hot seating with everybody that was there, and so limited information. The only information that is given is is coming from the chief, and she's just in my mind, in my opinion, she's just given the guys enough information to do their job, and that's it. Can you talk about?

Host 1:20:00

I mean, I I hate to do this, I know she passed away, and we're not disparaging her or the government, but I mean well, let's talk facts like sure. You know, for a long time that this was a thing that was new in the administration. Like normally, chief of you know, chief of station or chief of base came from the operation side, not the analyst side, and that was a long-standing thing. So people had been in the field for 20, 30 years. That's who got chief of station, chief of chief of base, analysts did targeting and not saying they don't have a place, but yeah, yeah, you know, operations and targeting analytical work, they're not the same. And this was something that was done by the Obama administration for some reason. They decided to start promoting analysts over people that had been in operations. Is that am I am I correct in saying that?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:48

Yeah, a lot a lot of the pressures came from from the White House to get to get information on bin Laden and that kind of stuff. And so usually, and I've been in those situations that actually end up positive, but cooler heads prevailing on the on the site, and they're like, Yeah, I'm doing this we're working at the speed of what it needs to go to be successful. That one, the pressures that were coming down from the White House to the agency, to the bases, to everything else was was was get bin Laden and get information in my opinion. It was too much for her to handle. Yeah, it was too much, it overwhelmed her, and then so she she's like when when my guys were trying to trying to talk to her, I'm like, hey, we this we do this all the time. This is this is what we do. Let's just not do it this way, and let's do it this way. And she was just not wanting to hear that. She had a way to do it, and I don't know if she had a particular method to do it, but Scott, I'm talking to Scott regularly, and he's having issues and he's asking me for like uh advice on how do I talk to how do I talk to her, how do I convince her this is the right way to do things. And they all think he's a new guy, like, and that's kind of probably how he was introduced. Like, this is our new newest guy to the team, and he was a new blue badger, but not new to G-RS. And that's probably how he was even introduced. And it's like, well, you're a new guy, what you don't know anything about how we do operations kind of stuff, in my opinion, and my assessment, that's probably what how it happened. So he he so what what what would be normal in any situation like that? So G R S team goes out to meet a guy and you search him, make sure he's clean, he's not doing anything nefarious, has any bombs, guns, or anything like that. And and it was common for them to have guns. So, okay, you're gonna have to leave your gun in the car. That's that you know, those kind of things. We're telling them that. Not that you can't bring it because they're they're traveling through Afghanistan, so everybody's got guns for their own protection. And we're like, well, okay, keep it in the car, keep it in the trunk, you'll get it back when you leave, right? So they wanted to go out in town with the assistance of the locals that we had working with us too, meet them, search them, like we've done hundreds of times before. And if he meant any ill intent, then it would just been literally. So I said that before too about Blauwe was going there to kill Americans. Just that's what he was getting ready to do. And if he was exposed to the 3G RS guys in town or wherever, unfortunately, they would have probably been killed.

Host 1:23:23

And I just want to highlight, you know, Jennifer, she was the station chief. She had had a long career in the CIA. She started off as a targeter, she spent her whole career targeting. She was actually tracking Al-Qaeda before 9-11 even happened. And then she got moved at some point to the counterterrorism side and was on like the Bin Laden cell. And one of the reasons she was sent to Coast is because she had a lot of knowledge about bin Laden. However, you know what I mean? You don't ignore all the operational stuff on the ground. Yes, she knew about him, she'd done great work for the government. She, you know, she was a hero. She made some poor decisions, and a lot of people pay with it for her lives. Yeah. So I don't want it to make it seem like I'm disparaging her. She's dead, she can't defend herself. But I mean, the decisions that were made on the ground got more than just her killed. It it killed seven people and two foreign intelligence officers as well. So I just wanted to backtrack and and and say that, you know, I want to be crystal clear that I'm not, you know, bashing her, however, you know, the decisions we're we're talking about the truth here. And she was a longtime analyst. She didn't have the knowledge to be on the ground in a hostile control. I mean, her previous station, she was, you know, in working in London, you know, tracking Al-Qaeda and terrorism. Well, that's a lot different than going into, I mean, Coast was pretty close to the border and it was Indian country. Uh Fob Chapman had was well known to be that was Indian country.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:42

Yeah, there was so that was the other things that in my in my purview as well. So, like honest, honest, honest broker, after action report reviews, kind of that kind of that's where I'm coming from with with we're not saying, oh, she made a bad decision. Okay, that happens. It's happening in the military too.

Host 1:24:59

Commanders and how do we how do we prevent this from happening again? I think that's that's the that's the same, you know, thought process you and I have.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:06

Yep. And so the what's also happening, and then that's not the first time Coast was regularly being attacked. And usually they were at the gates with car bombs. Coast was being attacked, Jalal Bada was being attacked, attacked, Bagram Air Base was being attacked a lot, and a lot of that was direct ground attacks, but it was also uh rocket attacks and mortar attacks at Bagram. So most of the bases that GRS is at, it's a regular thing that they're getting attacked. So to my point of why are we why are we forgoing what is what is driving the train on foregoing security measures? Any at this point, with everybody, including Coast, being attacked routinely. So there's some interest there, right? And so during this time, maybe it could have been done, or during another time, maybe it could have been maybe considered, but considering the overall threat environment, it didn't make sense to me when I heard that. And and that's coming from from Scott. He's like, she's not allowing us to do what we need, how we need to do things, and it's this is not he didn't feel good about it, and so his idea to go out in town and do that, and I said, Well, if you can't convince her that this is the right way to do it, and if she's saying what's correct, because I don't know anything about this guy either, and I was trying to ask information for it, but it was all compartmentalized for a reason, and I don't find that out till later, but I'm asking those questions too. It's like, you know, our our thing, I'm not, I don't want to be, I don't want to sound like the, you know, the you know, the the paranoid new guy, you know, chicken little, you know, the world's gonna end kind of thing. But that was difficult to convince people that this we need to follow some other security protocols to get this person in here. I don't know. I literally don't know anything about this guy. I mean, I can't get information on this guy because I'm starting to do my homework on the whole situation. And uh, I was telling Sky, I was like, well, I don't know. But so if this guy is as if it's as safe as they say it is, I've done it before. I was like, we don't have to, we don't have to force ourselves on this mission. I mean, if they don't need us, they don't need us. That's fine. And I don't I I was basing that off of okay, well, if this is what you're saying, it he's safe enough to do this, then okay, that's that's that's on you then. Okay, and I told Scott, it's like you can you can deny or not deny, you can just back out and not provide any support. If you're not gonna be able to do your job, then to his point, it's like, okay, then then don't be there. That's an option. That's your option, that's your call. You're on the ground, so you you tell me if if that if that is a viable option.

Host 1:27:53

Knowing what you know now, would you have changed your guidance on what you told Scott?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:59

Well, no, because knowing what I know now, I know what what her decisions were based off of and all the other consequences, cascading consequences coming from the pressure she was probably getting to make her decisions. No, I would probably so had given the time, knowing what I know now, had hadn't given the time, knowing what I know now, I would have flown down there myself and had a face-to-face conversation with with the chief and even our the chief of station, the the guy in charge of all of FG. And I didn't know anything about any of these people. I didn't know Jennifer, I didn't know her history, I didn't know what what her deal was.

Host 1:28:39

Yeah, and you guys had very little information on the target that was coming on the base, right? Yeah. Who, you know, for the audience, you know, he was a doctor, but he was, you know, he was a Palestinian by birth, grew up in Jordan, was had, you know, there was a bunch of shit that happened in Gaza that kind of flipped him, which just makes you wonder if the Iranians at the heart were at the heart of that plot. And that's gonna come up again later as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:02

Yeah, so based out for what I know now, no, I would have been totally different. I would have, I would have, you know, read Star Cluster to that whole mission and you know, made phone calls and and took a flight down there and all this other stuff. And so it was big enough to where a lot of people went down there to to go make sure this is so that that that's the the the the information that I'm getting. It is so important that we're sending people coming in from you know the states and everything else and from headquarters there in Afghanistan, they're going to the base to oversee this thing or oversee this just to be there. They want to be there because it's that important. So, why aren't we doing what we need to be doing, right? So keep reverting reverting back to that. So it in my default mode, uh that's how I'm talking to Scott. My default mode, then okay, back out. If they don't need you, then okay. And what was why wouldn't he back?

Host 1:30:01

Why didn't Scott want to back out?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:04

Initially, he was just being stuck. And make make shit happen. And then I talked to him in that one conversation. And he's like, Oh, I didn't, you know, I really didn't think about that. Because they don't know. He didn't know anything about Balawi either. He just knows that the these other people are coming in for this meeting, and it's an important meeting and all that other stuff. So what is his role? Okay, the chief is saying we don't need you. So? Okay. And he did that. He did that at one point, has this conversation. He's like, so how are we mentioned? He already disgusted that with the chief. He's like, you know, whatever, my guys aren't being used, so we're out. And he calls me later on and he says, Yeah, we're not gonna participate. You know, we'll be around if they need us in our team room. So and Coast at the time, they're it's all pretty close together still. So they're still in kind of a response mode. That's what he said. We'll we'll be ready, we'll be jocked up in the team room, waiting in case something bad happens. And there's a huge are other guys that are there too, securing the base. It's it's a huge presence, plus the endage that we have to work the gates and a lot of the stuff. Uh so pretty significant security force there. Plus, it's uh it was a training base also for the paramilitary side. So we got those guys on coast, those guys are on base too, and the paramilitary guys from the agency that are managing those guys, so huge, huge force forces there. So no, nobody, none, and they're actually engaging with the chief too about uh hey, maybe those guys know what's better, or those guys meaning GRS guys, maybe this is what they do. Maybe you should listen to the city.

Host 1:32:23

So the ground branch guys were telling the chief of station, like, hey man, the GRS guys do this for a living. Yeah, you should probably listen to them. So, yeah, it's just heartbreaking, man, to to listen to this, to know that that that this was preventable. That's the hard part, right? Like, we had the experience, we had the training, we had the guys on the ground, we had the team, and then just to have you know some people from Washington, and you and I talked about this yesterday, that disconnect of what happens in DC and what goes on on the ground, man. And that's where were you? I mean, you weren't there when the coast bombing happened, but you were in countrying. Walk me through that phone call or or how you found out about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:01

So, this is on top of all the things I'm doing, my assessments and other things for what we need to do and conversing back to DC to my boss's thing. And these are the things I'm seeing, these are the things I'm gonna, these this is my priorities of things I want to accomplish during my time here. And you're gonna hear some some pushback because it's really some significant changes to how things are being done out here. And he asked me why. Why are we doing these changes? Is it just to change? You don't need to change things just to get a bullet point. So he gives me that speech. I was like, I know I'm not. I you know I can give a shit about my performance reports and what you're gonna write. So feel free to write whatever you want. But I'm doing this because this this is what we got. I explain everything,

[Ad] History Analyzed

SPEAKER_02 1:33:43

and I actually write it to and uh email to him, and I explain everything that's going on. He's like, Oh, okay, a lot of thought going into this, and sure, sounds logical to me. I got you back.

Host 1:33:57

What were some of the changes you were pretty insistent about making? Or is are they stuff that we can discuss?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:03

Almost everything, almost everything we were doing. So there was a good there was a there was an absent staff presence there on the GRS side. So they would go, but they would really rely 100% on what the contractors are doing. So they weren't providing like any any guidance that was like helpful. So there were guys there, and they

(Cont.) CIA Operator: The Sacrifices Nobody Talks About | Bob "Ninja" Porras Interview (Part 2)

SPEAKER_02 1:34:26

they don't know what they don't know, but so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't see the changes that need to be made. I know uh one guy did, but he and he said he tried to make changes and he was unsuccessful. And I was like, okay, well, so uh at least I'm not the only one that's thinking these things. So push back from uh all kinds of folks, but the contract our guys, the the staff, GRS guys, and some of that, but on the same note, I had a few of my trusted guys that worked were working for me at the time on the staff side and the contractor side give me some feedback about like oh that's exactly what we need here. We we finally got somebody here, and please do those things that you're saying you're gonna do because they've heard it time and time again and nobody's acted on it. And I was like, Well, I don't know what happened before, but this is what's gonna happen now, and I'm ready to you know upset a few people. That that's fine, it's and it's gonna happen. Change never goes easy anywhere. But in this case, there was a lot of things that need to be changed, and it's gonna butthurt a lot of people. And one of one of the comments I made too, I think I mentioned another another situation too. One of the things when I'm talking to my bosses about how these things are the the uh the differing policies, concepts, methodologies, the security practices, the search criteria, and all that kind of stuff, it's it's it's different. There it shouldn't be different, and they're allowed to like they're just coming up with stuff in my mind. It's like, okay, we're that's not that's not a security threat position you're taking. It's it's uh I want to do things different just to do things different. So when I talk to my bosses, I'm thinking, okay, so so I can do I can sit here and do nothing, but the way we're doing things right now, somewhere out there, somebody's this is how people get hurt, this is how people die because there's gonna be something dropped, and my the this commute the disconnect is gonna be, and I described to my guys too. You're gonna think you're doing something right, and it's not what they wanted, and something's gonna be missed, and things are gonna go bad.

Host 1:36:39

So you're literally having this conversation right before Coast Happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:42

Yep, yep. And then the night it happens, I've I've talked to whoever I talked to. I'm getting buckling in for a rough year of you know trying to get things done. I want to move guys from the the downtown cobble area to the airport and all kinds of stuff going on. I want to open up bases instead of flying back and forth to them because those are some of the missions that were happening that were canceled because of weather. So I was like, because because weather's a deal if you're talking to aircraft, you know. So so I got buy-in from all the people that I needed to talk to on the the headquarters side of that there in Kabul on the second floor. The Air Ops our AirOps guy perfectly made sense to him. He's like, Oh man, that would be such a you know, such a relief off of the airflow that's coming in here. Because at the time too, we had I think a C130, L100 grounded in JBAD because it was waiting for parts. So we had like aircraft that wasn't flying because it was waiting for parts. And so all all things considered, literally all things considered, yeah. Well, then we wouldn't have an issue if we had guys sitting on that base. Whether they parked operations folks there, it's like I'll park a team there, and then when you guys go there, they'll be waiting for you. And so what they can do for you when you're there is they can do the AFAMP, get to know the streets, and get to know, get to know their job, you know, regularly. And by living there, they're gonna eat, sleep. And if you want to put some ops folks there, then cool. If not, I would like to camp some guys out there. And and let those so then it was like who there's a there's a let's say we're gonna fly away. There's a mission in Harat, and we don't have people there. So we gotta ask, hey, who's familiar with Herat, the streets and all that stuff? And get some hands up, never been there. So we're having to do that. It's like, well, let me get all you guys from Herat, you four guys, you're going to Harat kind of thing. And that was just uh a personnel on the base level, it's just a personnel management nightmare.

Host 1:38:45

So coming back to Coast, walk me through when you guys got when you got the call.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:49

Yeah, so the the so at the headquarters at the talk there, in my office down the hallway, and uh everybody's still at work, so it was kind of probably dinner time ish. And so I think it was a four o'clock when the actual incident goes off, or at least when I find out about it. And what happens is the guy, the the paramilitary guy who's in the talk, he's watching all the cameras in country and all that other stuff. He's getting the sit reps, that's where all the radios are, all this you know, chatter. It he gets he finally the report comes down, and it was from the paramilitary guys who weren't at on the site who are the ones that reported back. This is what happened. So the sit reps are coming from those guys. So loud explosion goes off, people are dead and dying. Our our static guys that were there are you know taking care of the wounded and and that kind of stuff. Just just yeah, talk about I mean, those guys, if whatever the medal of honor was for the agency's equivalent, the guys who responded that were there, that our guards are American and Afghan guards, that's like medal of honor stuff. And so I hear explosion uh explode bases attacked, bases, and it's really choppy information. So bases attacked, and there's no casualty report initially. So okay, so the guy that was in the in the in the talk, he runs down the hallway and he's knocking on all the all the door. It's all the chiefs, all the senior guys in Afghanistan. Knock, knock, knock, come over here, come down here, come down here to the talk. I there there's stuff, something going on you need to hear, and he just goes down the hallway, does that really quick. I look at him, I was like, okay. I know I would talk to him on a regular basis, so we're good friends. And I was like, oh shit. Screensaver on, go walk down the hallway, and we're all in a huddle. It's like, what's going on? Nobody knows what's going on yet. You know, AirOps guy. These are all senior dudes in the agency. And it's like support, logistics, air ops, paramilitary guys, myself. I don't remember who else was there, probably a chief or two. And then he the guy that's taking the message, he's writing messages based off of the, and I'm you can hear it on the radio, but he's writing down all the stuff. So base attack, and I can't remember the the the term that was used. It was at the it was like at it, it was near the armory. There was armory or the range or something that was set in the that come that the that set of communications. And I said, Where where is that? And I'm not familiar with Coast yet, never been there yet. And the whatever it is they said, I wasn't I wasn't computing. I was like, I I assumed GRS was involved. So when they when they started mentioning like not names, but they're saying there's some GRS and there's analysts, the chief, the and all these other titles are coming across. He's given us these casually initial casualty reports. There's some unknown who's dead, who's alive, but there are some dead, some alive, and GRS and all the other folks are being uh all the other positions are being identified. And I was like, okay. Immediately I'm thinking, how many how many guys do I need to get jocked up right now to fly to Coast? That's all I'm waiting for, numbers. Like who's down? And there's only four guys there, and so small team, and I'm waiting for numbers and to go downstairs, get our contractors, assemble those guys, say I need to have X number of guys to fly with me to Coast right now. And then confusion, all this stuff, time time's gone by, and some of the folks that are waiting there for information like weren't weren't responding, like that action is is generating an action on our part to do something, right? I think I was not alone, but I was one of the few that was thinking this is I'm waiting for an action, I'm waiting for numbers to take action on something. And I'm trying to figure out where this is as they're finally coming up with names, and I hear of this roster, all four guys are on the list. And one is surviving, but he's injured. So we have one wounded out of the four G RS guys there, the other three are K. So getting ready to run downstairs and I'm listening to what's going on. Is the ground is it stabilized? Is it secure? And all those kind of things, and where exactly is this? And that everybody else, I'm assuming, knew Coast more than I did. And I was like, Well, where is this? And it was oh man, it was like the armory or something like that. And I had no clue what that was, but I I thought the contractors downstairs, somebody might know where that is. And I assumed because GRS was involved, it was in town, because that's typically what we do. That's where bombs go off when we're searching people. And that's what I thought happened. There was a search going on, bomb goes off, and three are dead, one's wounded. So I run downstairs, get our uh senior contractor. I was like, I need four guys to go with me to coast right now, pack your bags, we're going as soon as we can get wheels up. And we're gonna drive ourselves to the airport because we can do that. And I ran back upstairs, or before I left, I talked to the AirOps guy. I was like, I'm gonna go downstairs, get four guys. We need to get coast right now. And so he's like, Okay, Roger, that so he does his job. I go downstairs, get get four guys spun up, or I talk my senior contractor to get four guys to get spun up, and we're we're going as soon as we can. And go back upstairs. We got a flight, it's coming in. It's uh it's a small jet that was in somewhere else, but it was flying back, it was in Balgham or something. So it's flying back to Kaya to our spot there to pick people up and start sending them to Coast. And I didn't know the status of the explosion and what's happening. I'm thinking it's in town somewhere, so I gotta get my guys there first so we can go help secure the ground and then coordinate with the the paramilitary guys on the ground to like you know do something also, you know, form a permitter or whatever, so we can do our job and then get everybody evacuated and all that stuff, metavac on whatever needed to be happening. That's what I thought was happening on the ground. So it's on base. Eventually, I figure that out because the guys that are flying with me, they were there. And I was and I told them. Unfortunately, I don't think I told them right away why we were even going to coast. Because it was like, I need four guys to go to coast with me, like right now, as soon as soon as we can get wheels up. And that's probably the only information they had. We're and we're at Kaya now, at our little hotspot there, waiting for an aircraft to arrive to take us there. And we we have these EOD guys that were gonna go first. And I said, Well, we need to get on the ground like first to make sure the area is secure, and then with the paramilitary guys that are on the ground, we'll secure the site first. That's that's number one thing we gotta do. And he's uh it's on, and they're the ones who told me it was on base, it's on base, the area is secure. I mean, it's because it's on base, and so we need to get there to start doing our investigations and what happened and bomb stuff and all their work. And I was like, it's on base. And the guys that were with me, they knew exactly based off of what he said where where it happened. And they're like, What what happened? How many guys how who's left of our guys? And I said, That's when I first told them myself. It's like we have three dead and one wounded, and they're all at Salerno by now. By then, they were all at Salerno getting uh metabactus, the army cash site. So the names that I got I read off, I didn't know. I so I had just met oh man, Healer. He was a Navy, former Navy SEAL medic, and I met him. That was his first trip, I think. And so I knew his call sign as Bong, the SF guy that was out there. He was he was pretty, he had been back and forth a couple times. Uh he was fairly new, and then Scott were on the KIA list, still unconfirmed, but they're still trying to figure out who's who and the body bags and and all the people going to the cache. And I hear I don't know these people yet, you know, Jennifer Matthews and Elizabeth and all these other people. I'm hearing the names. I don't know them yet. I don't know who they are or what their their situation was. But when I'm hearing all these names, I'm still trying to piece together what exactly happened. And I'm like, how are how are they at like ground zero? How are our guys? I get it. I get why our guys are wounded in the world.

Host 1:47:57

Yeah, but why are there like important role players and like yes leadership?

SPEAKER_02 1:48:02

Yep, yep. And it was uh it was news to me what what is happening, what eventually ended up happening. But we finally get a flight, a little little uh little jet pulls into our little spot, and it's only got seats for like five or six people. And the EOD guys get on, they fly out there, they come back and get us. When they came back to get us, they got a flat tire, so delay, delay, delay. It's very frustrating what was happening. I told our that was the first time I told our guys that you know we have three dead, one wounded, and well, actually, I think it was two and two. Two dead, two, two wounded was the first initial reports. And by the time we're in the air, we get the call that it's three guys dead, one wounded. And not then all the other operations, folks. Yeah, I get there and coast, it's it's blacked out at night. You got red lights everywhere, there's no lights, so it's dark. I don't know my way around what's what in coast. I so I get off the aircraft, and the way they stayed just in there, so so the reports were you you guys okay, you guys can kind of delay yourself because all your guys are Medivact in the cache, and there's no more ops, it's not downtown, it's on base. I'm okay with all this stuff going on that I'm hearing. And it's like, yeah, absolutely. Go go do your work, we'll be there on the next, the next chalk. And so we fly out there, we end up getting myself and another guy. So he goes there, he's familiar with everything, and I'm telling him, I'm asking him, it's like, so I don't know where the cars are, I don't know where the keys are, I don't know where the team room is to get the keys to the cars, I don't know where they're parked, I don't know anything about coast, so you're gonna have I'm gonna be attached to your hip until you you you know give me the brief and know where everything's at. So we get there, black uh it's pitch black, and the red lights scattered all over the place that you can see where like living area is, defects, and all that stuff. And we go there, first thing we do is get to the team room and drop our backpacks, and he so the guy that was with me, I think he was a first ranger battalion guy, but a ranger battalion, old, old salty guy, and he's just he's doing all this stuff. This is where everything's at. It was a little map of the camp, and apparently this is where the the incident happened, and it's okay, okay, cool. Let's get reconfigured here and we'll go down there and check it out. So everybody's been evacuated by now. They're at Salerno. I think like the last chopper when we were flying in, the last chopper of the the least wounded were getting medivact out. I could have been the EOT EOD team, I don't know. But so the EOD guys from Salerno, the army dudes, they they were there too. Uh they may have been even on base. There was a slice of army guys on the base. I think they were at Civil Affairs or something like that. May have been EOD, I'm not sure. So they were there, our guys were there, the static guards that were there. Again, if they didn't get whatever the agency's medal of honor equivalency, I don't know, they the they did some pretty cool shit.

Host 1:51:12

Well, like, can you expand on that?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:14

So, other than treating the wounded, they were the first responders. So, other than triage treating the wounded, some of the guys, I'm guessing it was one of the GRS guys, one of his as his vest was on fire, so it was cooking off the rounds. So they they saw the vehicle that Willow came in, they took a hummer and pushed it out of the way in case it had other things in it, like the car was a V-bid. Um, so they pushed that out of the way. The the guy's vest that was cooking off, they couldn't they couldn't go to him to do anything. So they the same Hummer they parked over the top of him. So if there's anything to continue to cook off, there's a Hummer over the top of him, and so covered his body to protect everybody else from his stray rounds cooking off in his magazines. Then treated casualties, metavac everybody, you know, packaged them up, did what they could, and then sent them to Salerno. And they were they were the only ones that were really there to do anything initially. Eventually, EOD gets there, eventually other people get there, eventually we get there. We're there by probably eight o'clock, like four hours later. So yeah, that was that was just shitty. But they responded to it, and so that some of the guys I talked to, and that that crew, too, are guards that were there, the American guards. We're having the same dilemma about I'm not comfortable about just letting this guy drive past the thing without some sort of check. And I'm pretty sure they had some like mental issues about that, like psychological issues with that. Like, like they're not like I I could have done something to prevent this, right? And I didn't say it after the fact because I've actually had to do the same thing where they told me on a on a base, and this was in Iraq, to not do something, like just no, they're fine, just let them in. So what I did in that situation was, okay, well, they're not gonna be out there with me, so I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm gonna make sure they're clean before they come in. And if they complain about it, okay, then I'm fine with that. I'll take the ashton. So later on, when I talked to the guys that were out there, the the art guards, the Americans, they thought about that too. Like, who's gonna know? I mean, sure, if he's if he's not, if he's, you know, who he says he is, then he'll make it to the meeting and they'll bitch and complain. I'm gonna just eat it. I'll take an ashtray on. I might get fired, you know, that kind of stuff. So some of the guys were actually the one guy that I know was actually I had that conversation with him, and that's why he was he had some issues over that because you know, the guilt that he could have done something right. Unfortunately, I said, Hey man, you did you did the right thing. You did what exactly what you needed to do, and those kind of things. Like your hands are tied. And unfortunately, yeah, it's this is a bad situation. And so that was a oh, yeah, for a lot of different things going on there. A lot of guys, you know, were you were either had some sort of you know, survivor's guilt, there was that going on, and nobody nobody was in their right mind there, except for there, I think there was like three paramilitary Americans there. So the chief and then two contractors, maybe, and that was it. So me and the guy I arrived with and three other guys from the the paramilitary side, and now it now it's it's changed to we so gruesome site. So we go to the site, we're trying to I'm trying to assess what exactly happened, and so we see the site, and I'm finding all this evidence of where everybody's at, right? I see the seat of it, the explosion, and I that's definitely a mark on the ground I can identify. The car's off to the side. I don't know that the the our guys pushed it over to the side yet. So I see the drag marks, and so I'm trying to, you know, what what happened here? And there's this Hummer that's parked over here, and why is that over there? And oddly parked just randomly in this open space. Well, that was the one they parked over the guy, pulled it off of him so they can medavac him or just put him in a body bag, whoever that was, and then send him to Salerno, and then parked it, left it there, and it's trying to get a sense of what's going on. I see the wall just riddled with all the pellets that were from his his suicide vest, and they were everywhere. It's amazing that anybody survived that, but we had a survivor that survived it. Several badly injured and badly wounded, but they survived it. Yeah, it was just a it was just a horror show. Pellet BB holes everywhere, blood, body parts, all that stuff. And I I see where I kind of get a sense of what's happening, and I'm just taking mental notes, like I I have some questions, right? So we're getting all the updates from Salerno positive ID on people was an issue at one point. So it's like get confirmed KIA, this, that, and the other thing. Wounded, definitely confirm, wounded, he's being Medevact Bogram, launch jewel, he's going through the Medevac process. Yeah, it was just just a whole horrible scene. Then, but when I started hearing all the stuff, like uh the the RPA that was out there, and he's got some ranger history too, he's like a legend in the Ranger Battalion, Ranger Regiment, and SF and everything, everywhere he's gone. He was injured in the explosion too, but he was injured, but while he was injured, he took something to his shoulder, shrapnel or something. And he was still helping our our our guards like triage and treat people. So as he's holding his own injury, you know, he's like, hey, get get a tourniquet over there and look at that person and check check pulse and all this. So he's he's still in the game, right? Yeah, I don't know if I should mention his name. If I did, everybody are a lot of people who would recognize his name. He's a legend in still operational. I don't think so. No, he would he would be uh God, I would hope he'd be retired by now.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:38

But he's also one of those guys that doesn't know how to retire and really well. Yeah, that type of person, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:57:46

And so I realize what's happening, I understand what's happening, I get it, and I got enough information that I need to, you know, send some information to my bosses on what happened and why it happened. And initially, uh when things like that happen across the board, the uh the policy is you know names until it has to come from the the the senior chief of station, it has to come from them, it's not gonna come from me on the ground. It's gonna like I'm not gonna go sh report straight back to my bosses in DC as much as they wanted it. I got phone calls on this little brick phone that I had that for my deployment phone, and they're calling me on this phone saying, Hey man, we know you're on this whatever it is. Uh who is it? I said, I can't give you names. We have three KIA and one wounded. You're gonna find out eventually, but what does it matter right now? It matters to us, we know who it is. You're gonna get the report. I can't say that to you, I can't tell you who it is. They wanted to be the first ones to notify family members, is what was happening. And I was like, well, whether it comes from you or somebody else, and for the people that were asking me that question, because they wanted to be that person, that they'll let the family families know, I would have rather that message come from other people. So that was my internal thing, saying I'm not gonna violate policy or anything. Otherwise, I would have just told them. It's like, yeah, because what does what difference does it make? Yeah, absolutely. Get in contact with these people, tell their family members that this is what's happening. And I already knew that the the people who needed to, who I would have, it made more sense for them to tell the family. There was actually a friend of Scott's in country, and uh, I called him and I'm trying to call, I'm trying to contact him. He's back in Kabul because he's gonna escort Scott's body back. So I'm trying to coordinate that back in Kabul. I'm in Coast, and he's the guy I want to contact. He's a good family member of Scott's. And uh for Scott, I was like, that's who I want to tell and let him tell the family. My bosses weren't having that stuff, and I was like, I'm not gonna tell you, man. The right person knows, and they're gonna tell the family when when they think it's right to tell them. And and he did. And or at one point it was like, just give us the name, like you know, what would you just please violate policy? I said, I have nothing to do with policy right now, but the family knows. Because I knew that they made the call. I said, Hey, whenever you feel it's it's it's it's the right time, call the families and let them know Scott Scott's past. And and he did at one point, whenever that was, and I said, Call me back when you do that, just so I know, close that loop. And I don't keep have to keep bugging you, and I wasn't going to, but he called me, said, Yeah, I just got the phone. Everybody knows. I was like, all right, cool.

Host 2:00:49

Scott Michael Robertson, Dane Clark, Preese, Jeremy, Jason Wise. Those are the three GRS contractors who were killed. Did you know the other two guys at all?

SPEAKER_02 2:00:59

No. Oh, well, I just met Jeremy, so he was healer, the his call sign. So he was a new guy. So when I got there, I was a new guy too. And when he was in the team room, some of the one of the things I saw him getting jogged up, and then it's as he's getting introduced to me. My my senior contractor there is introducing me to everybody. This ninja, this is whoever, and this is a new guy, uh Jeremy, call sign healer. And it's like, so where'd you get the call sign? All that kind of stuff. And he's a medic in the Navy and stuff like that. And what I noticed was he had this little, it's like a a crowbar, like a little, like I used to use it as a breacher to get in windows surreptitiously and stuff like that. I always had it in my kit. And I was like, So you were you in SEAL team breacher or something like that? He's like, No, I was a I was a medic. That was his history, and but yeah, I was coming from the SEAL teams and all that stuff. I was like, Oh, just curious because you have this little thing. He's like, Oh yeah, that's my my my break-in tool, like what I used it for. It's like I carried the same thing, and that was kind of it. Just had a little casual conversation. I was like, Well, welcome to the team and yeah, where are you going? He's going to coast and all this other stuff. And yeah, so I had just met Jeremy. I knew Scott. Because while during his training and staff, like from contractor to staffer, I was one of the guys in a stateside mission that he was hanging out with me for a couple days, doing some more traditional protection in DC. So, yeah, sitting in a hotel room saying, you know, he's uh he's asking all the same questions. How is it different in Iraq and Afghanistan and all that stuff? And and his concern, one of his concerns, ironically, was well, what if you because he's probably seen it was but ironically it was like, well, what do you what do you do with a problematic like CEO or somebody who does who doesn't want to listen to you, who's not paying attention, who's not listening to you, how to do business. And I was telling him, I was like, Yeah, well, that happens. You really just have to convince them. And if you if you're having issues and I'm available, just tell them to call me. But yes, try to try to get to yes. You can't, you know, and he was a he he was his history, so he's a police officer, he's used to dealing with people and used used to talking to people, and you know, verbal judo on people and stuff like that to de-escalate things. So he he was he he was more than capable to do that. I said that that's that's what it you can unfortunately that's that's your job as a staffer now. You're gonna be more interactive with the the problematic people that don't listen, don't want to listen to you and all that stuff. And then first, right out of the shoot, he goes to there and to somebody who's that problem.

Host 2:03:43

Is there anything that stands out about Scott that you would like people to know?

SPEAKER_02 2:03:49

Well, oh man, he was just a he was just a happy, like happy, not happy, like weird happy, but he he was in a right place or he was in the where he wanted to be in life. So he's progressing through the system and now he's a staff agent and all this other stuff. I don't know how recently he was married, but uh it was recent, but I don't know, like they were newlyweds, but they finally got a stable job, stable life. They're actually instead of the contractor insecurity life lifestyle, he's he's got that. He was in a good place. He kept saying that. He's like, now I can I have a garage for my motorcycle and all that kind of stuff. And so that was one of the things we were planning when we got back from Afghanistan, was go for a ride. So it was all those kind of things. We had a lot of those kind of common things that we were interested in, and he was just he was just really at a good place, but he's now more aware of like all the things that we're dealing with as staffers, or we should be. Some guys didn't deal with them that way that well. But I was happy to see him come on board and with the attitude that he had the mentality and the mindset to engage with people like that and know how to do it, uh I was like, You're perfect, you're you're gonna do well. Don't worry about it. Because he's worried about you know, being in a different position and like screwing up. Like now he's in more interactive with the staff folks. He doesn't want to screw it up now. It's like, yeah, you're fine. You got more than enough time on the ground in your police department history and all that other stuff. You're you're gonna be fine. If you have any other questions, you know, uh we'll we'll we're hanging out for a couple days, and just just let me know what your your concerns are, and and you won't be the first time, you won't be the first one who's ever had to deal with it. It happens all the time. Problematic people, bosses, and all that stuff. And he wasn't he he was a you know, he's a big dude, but you know, you can you can he was a knuckle dragger. So I was like, just as long as you don't resort to that, don't default to like do this my way, right? Just be more inner that's all you gotta do. Just be more interactive, have solutions to anything that you're gonna have to talk about. Engage, engage the people, the this are off the people we're supporting, engage those people in conversations, like outside of their operation, just so they have more confidence in you that you're able to do the things that you need to do. So there's that kind of stuff that I was talking to them about too. You have to, you know. Unfortunately, so a lot of guys have have the issue, and I that's what I told them. A lot of guys have the issue with they want to they want to be more friendly with the team, the GRS guys, and then they end up discounting what the staff officers have to say, the people that we're protecting. And or they reverse that. So there's there's a lot of things, a lot of the guys weren't having were having issues. It was they couldn't find a balance between, uh yes, I'm your boss, but I'm also have to get to know these people, and so we can provide better support. A lot of guys, a lot of guys were that that way. It's like, nope, this is the way we gotta do things, only way we do things. And then they're like, okay, then we don't need you. Okay. Then they were out. And then there were some other guys who were like, okay, we're gonna get to yes, and I'm gonna talk, have a conversation with you on how we're gonna better do this from my perspective. I'm gonna listen to your perspective and we'll make this happen. There was very few of a lot more fewer of those guys than the the hardliners, you know. Nope, I'm stubborn. This is what I was taught, this is what we're gonna do, and there's no other way.

Host 2:07:30

When everything went bad and coast, casualties, chaos, shock, what did leadership look like in that moment when you got on the ground? Was it tact control or more of like an emotional triage thing?

SPEAKER_02 2:07:42

Both, yeah. Good question. So the people that were alive wrecked emotionally. So there's the difference between that and the paramilitary guys that are the act, the only guys left really action anything, still in the right mindset, all this other stuff. But still very overwhelming for the the the our senior paramilitary guy there. So he he immediately became chief of base dealing with that. Most senior guy on the ground, that was a lot. So after that, when we got the follow-on missions to find the the facilitators that got Balawi there, there's five of us to start mission planning for this thing. So, okay, people are at the cache, they're a medevac to Salerno, they're they're treat being treated, areas safe. There's a firefight in the uh indage area because they decided that's a good time to fight each other. Two war two different groups. I call them militias, but they're from different parts of Afghanistan. And they took that as an opportunity to fight each other, and so there was a little firefight going on down on the base down the road, and so that's what the paramilitary guys were just coming back from. They're like, okay, well, this is going on, and then that, okay, that's done. And what what next? And so the mission was to get the facilitators that that got ballowed there.

Host 2:09:19

Did we already have an idea of who it was?

SPEAKER_02 2:09:20

Yeah, it was just a matter of finding them where did they go, where are they at now. Because that was all that was all planned on on the Afghanistan side of the border. How we got to the Pakistan side of the border was a whole nother issue. So that was another aspect on that side of the border that was happening too. So then that that that's now our that's now our primary effort. So mission planning, right back in mission planning. So refocus on the chaos that just happened back to mission planning, refocus on the tactical planning of this the mission. And it's only two of us, and I still got two more guys coming in on another flight. And so by the time those guys get there, these are all the numbers we're working with. We'll have a total of four. You guys got three plus your your guys, uh, your paramilitary force, Afghanistan folks.

Host 2:10:07

Was that Omega dudes?

SPEAKER_02 2:10:10

No, they were there too, but they didn't have anything to do with it. It was the local Afghan army that were trained by the paramilitary guys. Yeah, I don't know that there's been so there's that. There's always uh some conflict with the the group of guys that are coming from different parts of Afghanistan. They get together and they fight each other. But for the most part, they're like they were they were good. They were good at what they did. Yeah, the guys trained them awesomely.

Host 2:10:38

Did you guys end up actioning any any target side of that?

SPEAKER_02 2:10:41

Yeah, right after that. So we we did the mission planning, we we went to got the mission together, and then we figured out, well, we're kind of out of the picture, but we're a very part, a lot of uh of the mission planning was our stuff. Uh that was me and the guy I had with me sitting down with uh the chief that was there, just lining out this is how we're gonna do things. And he at one point he was pretty overwhelmed with the situation. And at one point, as we're sitting around the table, he's like, Hey, this is this is this is you guys, Ninja. You you this is this is yours. And he just gave me this little his, I guess, clipboard with notes on it. He's like, This is this is your this is your thing, man. You guys do this all the time. Uh you guys are planning this. So it was really just me, the GS guy with me, the two contractor paramilitary guys, and mission planning this whole thing, and using all of our available assets, which is mostly the their their guys, and that's a veteran who ended up and actioning, actioning the the the target. I don't know what happened with all those guys after that, but they just left camp. By the time I go to sleep the next day and wake up, we're getting reports that successful mission. We got the guy, he's being talked to, all this other stuff, and then the snowball chain of events, FBI has to has to do their thing. And unfortunately, I didn't I wasn't very cooperative with those guys. So for two reasons. One was like, like, I'm not answering to you. What what what are you guys doing here? And then if American dies, they gotta investigate, right? So I was like, okay, and they're asking me questions that I don't know either. So they're just how did this happen? What are your protocols? What are your SOPs and all this other stuff? And I was like, you know, I don't know what protocols or SOPs they were using because I'm finding out that it's different everywhere, so I still gotta find out myself. So that's kind of the response I was giving. And I might probably sounded a little bit more uh standoffish, plus most of the people that you could ask to get that information are deceased. Yeah. And so I probably wasn't as cooperative to them, even in my attitude. But yeah, it is what it is. You know, I didn't know that was I didn't know I was gonna be talking to those guys like right away. And they said that too. They arrived, they say, Hey, we're here, we're this is what we're doing, and at one point we're gonna want to talk to you when you're ready. And I was like, Well, I don't know anything. What do you got? And that's when it started. And they're like, Well, okay. I don't know what they did. And I don't want to, I don't want to assume anything at that point. I don't want to assume they're doing it a certain way. I and I just said, I don't know.

Host 2:13:25

Did you ever find out any information about Balawi as far as who put them up to it or who coordinated it?

SPEAKER_02 2:13:32

Or not really. I finally get the we're talking investigations, internal, external, and all that stuff goes down. People are are getting their their ceremonies for their burials are done and and all that stuff. People are in hospitals recovering. This this is a while later when I finally even get any information on this guy. Because now the media is reporting it too. So I was like, hey, if this is in the media, what what is this dude's deal? What was his thing? And so before the his the book came out about his thing, triple agent, already privy to all the things that was happening and the buildup to that particular point. And it every every time I read something, a report or something like that, every step of the way, I wanted to find something that was gonna give the benefit of the doubt to Jennifer Matthews making her decisions, right? Didn't get to that point. Everything that I read, everything that I heard was there's nothing substantiating that that disregard all protocols, security protocols. There's So I didn't get to that point ever. And it's like, well, so it happens in the military too. And I get it. People make decisions and bad things happen sometimes. And I kind of had to resolve myself to that. Otherwise, I would have just been pissed off. And I was pissed off for a long time. And when I got back from that deployment, that that that rotation, it was just in time for the memorial ceremony at at CIA headquarters, which Obama was going to come say a few words and all that stuff. And I didn't even know when that was. It was it was a considerable time after that. And I just got there and I didn't know that was going to happen until I got back. And I'm checking in, checking in to turn in my passports, get just dump my stuff, and then go home and take my my leave time and comp time and all that stuff. Just veg out, just forget about this whole trip. And they said, Hey, they you're you're back just in time for the memorial ceremony. I was like, what memorial ceremony? And it's the one at headquarters. I was like, well, okay. All right. I'll go to that. So went to that and found out that all the chatter that was happening about how did this happen? Why did this happen? And all this other stuff. And they're telling families, the families that are there, it was a a failure of security. And I was like, Oh hell no. No way are they being told that. And they're like, well, and they're all being briefed on what happened and why and all that stuff, because they want to know why. And they blamed it all on security. I I I I don't even know another time I was so pissed off. Like and I was already pissed off from the whole incident itself. And all the things that that happened that that I did had to do. And it just seemed like I was meeting resistance every every step of the way. And then I got there and found that I'm and I'm going there to to this memorial for our guys. And I heard that. It's all you know, and I was just infuriated and thinking they need to know what happened. I mean, we owe that to them now, to let them know exactly what happened. You don't have to make shit up. Just just tell it like it is. And I guess it was easier for them to say it was the the fault of security or something like that. And I don't think Yeah. So in my my my my pissed off state, I was just so upset. I wanted I I was like, no, they need to know. And I'm I'm gonna go walk around right now and tell everybody how as many people who are gonna listen to me right now, I'll yell it out in the in the it was the ceremony was out in front in a in a tent that had this big like circus tent that we're gonna do this in. Or it's like a debate large event tent out front, but mostly everybody's hanging out in the lobby, uh, the front of the uh headquarters at CIA. And I'll I'll I was I was determined to like if I had to yell this in the lobby right now, I'm yelling to the lobby whoever hears this stuff. Whoever needs to hear this, I don't know who's who. And I met um oh shoot, the Bong, the seventh group guy, or whatever group he was in, the SF Jackal was his call sign. I knew it as Bong. And I met his wife, he was a she was introduced to me, and she's she said her question to me was where did he get the call sign Bong? I thought it was Jackal. I was like, Well, I don't know. Uh I I knew him as Bong. I don't know as Jackal. And it's that's pretty much it, very solemn. Uh, but that was her concern at the time. It's like, where did he get that call sign? And I was like, Oh, I don't know. I really I never met your husband, and I don't know where he got the call sign. It's what it was when I met him and or knew of him, and that's what's on the the rosters and the list and all that other stuff. And I don't think I met anybody else that was there. But yeah, that was that was a horrible time to to be in my position to have to talk to these folks and to hear that's what everybody was being told. And I was for lack of a better term, uh my chief was there, and for and he's asking he's asking too, and he's in the mode like this is never gonna happen again, kind of mentality. I was like, Well, it could if we if we don't make the right decisions, you know, that's that's yes, it could. And this is what we we need to talk about, how this is not gonna happen, and it's our decision making and how we talk, how we communicate, and all that stuff. And he was just kind of in denial kind of thing, right? It wasn't being forceful or anything, it wasn't being you know authoritarian. He's like, he was just in denial, so that's where he was in his head. And I said, These you know, these people need to know. He's like, Not right now, not right now. Don't tell anybody right now. Because he's still in his mind, he's still trying to figure out you know what really happened. And he's he's getting the same word that it was security's fault. And and I told him, It's like it wasn't our fault. It wasn't we all our guys did exactly what they were supposed to do. And I told him that was the first person I told if this if we did it the way we wanted to do it, our guys would still be dead or injured. So but that doesn't excuse the fact that decisions were made that led up to the ultimately their death and uh all everybody's death and their injuries. And he's like, it was just too much for him at the time. He just said, Well, I don't I don't need you talking to them right now, don't say that right now. And I was kind of sequestered to to an office space, and I say sequestered, he just said needed to go calm down, go go to my office and and chill out, relax, take a deep breath. And I was just pissed off and just wanted to tell everybody.

Host 2:20:52

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SPEAKER_02 2:22:26

Oh yeah. So and one one of the biggest thing was so when the the FBI agents, I was interacting with those guys and they said, Okay, you don't know what they did. What are your what are your protocols? What are your SOPs, policies, all that stuff? And I was like, I'm not gonna interact. I I don't know. I don't I don't know what happened here. I'm I'm still finding out myself. When I find out, I'll I'll talk to you guys. But but I took it as an opportunity to because then what what has to happen? All the things that I was talking about initially to all this the the senior level folks, and it's like okay, we need to make things consistent across the board, right? And so that we get this whole thing about how we what are we gonna do next, right? How are we gonna move forward? And I gave them my my bit on official you know, cable traffic. How are we gonna fix this? And I wrote the protocols that eventually that's what everybody followed, and and working with the operational staff at the headquarters.

Host 2:23:21

It's like funny, man. How do you fix immigration? Oh, I don't know. Why don't we follow the federal laws that are already in place? Like, well, how do we fix security? Well, we had protocols for all of this, just gotta follow them. Yeah, that's pretty wild. The next thing I wanted to talk to you about, man, and you know, uh we're just not gonna get to everything that you've done and and you've been a part of, but this is one that's kind of been near and dear to my own heart. You, although you weren't in Benghazi when the annex got hit in in Benghazi, you were working for GRS, you know, you you got notified in Iraq when that kicked off. And that's a conversation I'd like to have. There's been a lot of a lot of drama, especially vet drama that's come up lately about you know the contractors, the grs guys versus the Delta Force guys that showed up and you know contractors getting pissed off. The Delta Force guys are getting the medal of honor, getting put in for the medal of honor. What I'm here to tell you is we're not talking about any of that shit. I don't give a fuck. I mean, if the Department of Defense decides to give some Delta Force operators a medal of honor, those those awards don't come very easy. And I'm sure there's a reason for it. And I'm not here to Monday morning quarterback why they're doing that. I'm sure that would be a lot really great for clicks and all that shit, and that's not what we're about. Yeah, I agree. But what I do want to talk about is the truth. And I think, and I'm not saying that what's been put out there is a lie, but you know, after talking with you and the prep that we did, there's a lot of things. I think one of the things that we're gonna talk about is the Iranian influence on what happened in Benghazi. I don't know that it's been talked about it a lot, and you know, we I got some information in this last week while we were prepping that I had no idea about, most of which is open source, which I thought was very interesting because you know, we've all you've ever heard is people talk about the attacks in Benghazi, and then of course there was a movie made, and that movie was based on the book that the survivors wrote, who, you know, we'll we'll we'll talk about that as well. But that's only one part of the story, and I think that's important to capture in this conversation with you. And it's why, you know, you and I aren't having this conversation for clicks, we're having this conversation for the sake of truth, and that's one thing that I like about you, and that's something that you know I'm always gonna try to keep you know our channel focused on is not the drama, but the truth, right? I think the truth matters good, bad, or indifferent. Whether this hurts people's feelings or validates things that people thought or none of that, you know, it's the truth.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:37

Truth sometimes hurts.

Host 2:25:38

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. So, you know, just kind of give the listeners if if you don't know what happened in Benghazi, then you're either younger or you live under a rock. But in on September 11th of 2012, yeah, our the CIA Annex and a consulate in Benghazi and Libya was attacked. Our US ambassador was killed, which I think I don't know that that's ever happened in history. I could be wrong. A US ambassador being assassinated? It's it's been a minute.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:09

Yeah. Chief Station Lebanon years ago, though. I think since then, nothing like that.

Host 2:26:17

Yeah, but that was a chief station. Was it the uh was it an ambassador or uh no? I mean chief station sucks too, but I mean uh U.S. ambassador is in a that's an um that's an appointed position by a president, approved by Congress most of the time. Yeah, I can't I can't think of actually, you know what? I don't but anyway, it's a really big deal. And then, you know, we we lost I think he was a security guy that was doing the cameras there, if not mistaken, or maybe an analyst, and then two GRS contractors were were were killed in that attack. So I just wanted to kind of set that tone. If you haven't seen the movie 13 hours, that's a version of what happened. I'm not saying it's the right or wrong version, but it's definitely you know a part of the story. Well, there was a nasty firefight, there was a lot of stuff that happens, and we're gonna really dive into that. It's not very often you get an opportunity to talk to a senior-level GRS guy that has knowledge, new people that were on the ground, went back to you know, Libya later, which I'm not even gonna sure we'll have time to cover the triply evacuation, but you know, you've you're familiar with Libya. So, you know, to kind of set us up a little bit, when when Benghazi erupted, kind of where were you and and and what was your thoughts on what was initially going on?

SPEAKER_02 2:27:27

When Benghazi for 2012. Yes. So so just a year before that was the actual overthrow of the of the Qaddafi regime. So we're talking only a year into that whole mess happening. Total chaos in Libya. Militias fighting over the weapons that are there to be the, you know, to take over supremacy of Libya. They want to be the new kings.

Host 2:27:50

Yeah, and then just I guess that's so let's give the audience two, man. The year before, yeah, the US government, along with, you know, NATO partners, mainly I think the French and the British, basically unseated, a dictator. Qaddafi was was killed, and it's that it's Libya was probably not the greatest place to begin with, but that really set off a firestorm in the country. Qaddafi had stockpiled massive amounts of weapons. Yeah, to your point, you were just saying the militias started raiding all of Qaddafi's weapons, foreign fighters started flowing into Libya because now it's a free-for-all. You've got foreign adversaries there, Chinese, Russians, Iranians, just to name a few. Yeah. And it's it's it's the wild West. It's about as wild as we're gonna get in in 2012. So I that's a good point to bring up. Yeah. So, and maybe we before we get into where you were, you know, to your to the best of your knowledge, like neither one of us are I'm definitely not a professional or any type of media expert, but my understanding is the CIA Annex in Benghazi was focused was focused on finding weapons that were being moved to other parts of the world, or you know, because uh Qaddafi had surface to air missiles, shoulder file anti-aircraft weapons, you know, stuff that could harm us. You know, we're in the the height of the GWAT, Iraq, Afghanistan, everywhere else around the world. There's been global attacks, shit going on in Africa. I mean, so obviously the US had an interest in finding where these weapons were going or securing the weapons to keep them from moving. And I, you know, I know JSOC had folks on the ground. You know, I think we ended up finding out later that some of that stuff was getting moved into Syria and you know, whatever else is going on. So I you know, to kind of set the stage for the audience, I'm you know, in the odd case anybody is not tracking on what was going on in Libya. So kind of with that backdrop, you know, tell us a little bit about where you were when you found out that the annex was under attack.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:41

So I was in Iraq, I was the senior GS guy there, and the things that were happening in Iraq at the time, as stable as it could have been during those time frames, but we're we're actually consolidating that they have a new embassy compound, and everybody's moving from wherever they were in the green zone to this new embassy compound. That's that's kind of we're closing down where we're our office is there, turning them back over to the Iraqi government, and we're everybody's relocating to this new embassy compound.

Host 2:30:08

Yeah, because we were really starting to draw down on Iraq, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:30:10

Yep. And yeah, so focus is starting to to to to go elsewhere. So Libya's on fire, literally. That they do that thing. That that's a thing. When we're starting to put teams in in country in Libya, northern Iraq and Syria, so that's also the time frame that ISIS is is take taking Mosul. And so that's going on in Iraq. So these are there's still a a lot of fires burning in that region. And I was the senior GRS guy in Baghdad at the time, and really when I when so I'm reading sit reps, and they're sending out sit reps all throughout the night, and that was kind of the talk of like, hey, did you hear what hear what's going on in Benghazi? It's like, no, what's going on in Benghazi? You know, I mean, I know there's guys there, but what's happening? Uh so I I read it and I'm tracking on this thing like all the other base attacks. It's like, all right. Another base attack. I'm reading about another base attack, and I hope it works out for these guys and all this other stuff. I'm sure they're they have what they need to do, whatever it is that you know they have to do, and all that stuff. So I'm reading it throughout the night. Everybody's kind of tracking on it, and uh I didn't think any less of it, but it was for me, it was just like, okay, we've been doing this for six years right now, and I've I've had to read about reports like this numerous times, base attacks, and GRS is on the on the camp that's getting uh attacked. And all right, well, at least they're there, at least we got people here to take care of business. I didn't know I didn't know the the what was going on. I know generally they're just tracking on the with the the rat lines getting all the foreign fighters. So these are just part of like my daily read on what's happening at all the hot spots and tracking the weapons, foreign fighters in and internet, you know, consolidating in Libya. Everybody's after all the weapons that are being stashed or that were stashed and stored there. And I'm really not that involved in why why what we're doing other than protection, just like everywhere else, and facilitating operations. So I hear that word, and that's kind of like okay, it's another base being attacked. All right, what's new, right? Same, same stuff. But in the process of that, it's like I I'm curious, like who's there? Who do we got there? Who who are they who are the guys there? And I don't so I never work with any of those guys that were in Benghazi. Never so six years into it, I knew I knew every well, I thought I knew everybody in G R S and wherever they were. You because you hear about them, talk about them, somebody knows.

Host 2:32:48

But it's not a big organization, no, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:50

So when you're at at a fire pit or something like that, you're usually talking about other people that aren't there. You know, so uh six years into it, I was like, who who who are these guys, right? Where did they come from? Well, I knew the guys that were in Tripoli, I knew quite a few guys that were in Tripoli, and I was like, Okay, cool. I know who's in Tripoli, and that would that that was so not mine right away. I was like, so I don't know these guys, are they new? Because that was some of the guys that were head headed initially right after the invasion to Libya. They're guys I never heard of. It was like new guys, except for one one of the staff guys. Everybody else was was new, and the and I heard they were like, who's who's going? And they asked me to our bosses in at Jira's headquarters, like, hey, you want to go to the the new the new site in Libya? And I was like, checking out who's there, and no, I don't know anybody there, so I'm not gonna go. One of the guys that was there during the invasion, great guy, did great stuff, did a lot of good stuff establishing a footprint in Libya for Jira's and the agency, really overall. Good dude, established the relationships with the military. He did a lot of stuff, and I think he's still in, so his his won't mention his name, but he was really good, and he had previously been in Iraq and Ramadi during a lot of the high times there. Everybody's jocked up, you're all wearing military uniforms, and you're working with you know HVT teams and all that stuff. That's so that's his experience, so he was perfect for that. And I think he was a JTAC too, like an Air Force Reserve guy. So great guy, did a lot of good stuff, but I don't know all these other people that are going. They asked me if I wanted to go, and I didn't know anybody that was out there, so I was like, nah, I'll I'll keep doing this stuff. And uh I figured, well, so you also don't know. We didn't know at the time, I didn't know that we were gonna be there that long. It was just like a one-off thing. We're gonna be there during the invasion, and then okay, that's it. Who knows what's gonna happen after that? So that happens. I get the word, and I'm just reading traffic, everybody's talking about it, obviously. Like, hey, you see what's going on in Benghazi, and I'm just reading through all the traffic that's coming through the sit reps, and it's like, holy shit. It's like, man, these guys are you they're not a lot of detail in these things, so it's like just because our guys are there, they're probably pretty engaged in some things, and uh yeah, there was a lot of things going on there. Uh, so there's so there's there are times, and so the guy unfortunately the guys had some issues with the relationship between the staff officers and the contractor team that was there, and flash forward to the book being written, all that stuff. I'm asked to like verify that because the book actually goes through publications review board, and so during that process, they hand off to our bosses and GRS, like, hey, read through this, you know, you're gonna hack off on this, and so they're gonna do redactions and all this other stuff, or correct things or check on things. And one of the things I was asked to do was confirm or deny like that relationship. One of my uh deputy chiefs asked me to, hey, read this portion of the book. I gotta read it and kind of proofread the stuff and see what see what the see what's happening here. And so she was a she was a boss. So when she used to go to the field, you know, there was a dog and pony show. She not she didn't see any bad things, so you don't show people bad things when they do the dog and pony shows. So everything's good. When she asked, hey, how are my guys doing and all this stuff? It's always good, it's always perfect, they're great and they're awesome. And for the most part, yeah, they are. But you don't hear the bad stuff. And so the relationship, the contentious relationship they depict in the book and the movie. I was asked to like it's like, is that a thing? Is that does that happen? I said, Yes. I was like, absolutely, yeah, I've had to deal with that myself. And those aren't things that you actually talk about, except for your the the your success or your replacement who's coming in. It's like, hey man, I've been having to work this relationship. It's very iffy. You know, whether it was a chest mat chest pushing or you know, there's all kinds of stuff. There it's uh there's uh environmental things in the in the community at large, like Ivy League graduates and public school, you know, knuckle draggers. Yep. And so that happens. That's you know, that's that's normal. And that contentious relationship, I I don't know to the extent, and and so one thing to be clear on the in the movie and the book, GRS would have not had that much control of what's happening. So the conversations uh that they were having and the decisions that were being made are are not on GRS. It's actually the chief of base, chief of station, all the the senior level agency folks that are making decisions and would have probably had those conversations. And so to give them the benefit of the doubt and writing the book in the movie, they just had to portray it somehow. So the only people they were gonna like expose or put under the bus or put in the movie in the book are the GRS guys. So Bub, he's the only one that I knew on the AAA team. Well, I knew some of the guys on the triple A team. He's the only one that died in Benghazi that I knew and worked with. So they depict that too in the movie that he's on a like video conference with the other GRS contractors. That's not how that works, but I get it. They had to depict that was a conversation somehow that happened between the offices. It's usually in the skiff, it's with the operations and gRS team leaders, staff guys, and and that that happens. If that happens, that's the way that happens. It doesn't, you're not doing video conferences in your team rooms, unless that's in the SCIF. So, yes, there are conversations that happen in the contractor staff, but not they don't disclose information like that, like the ambassadors coming and all that kind of stuff. All that's on the high side and those kind of things. But the relationship there, the contentious relationship that they'd pick in the movie and the book. Yes, I I confirmed that. I was like, yes, that that does happen. I've had to deal with that. That's part of what we have to do when we get on the ground is manage that relationship so it doesn't get that bad. But you do have that. That was a then so I I just let my boss know, yeah, that happens. I've had to deal with it too. It's normal, it's normal in a lot of places, and in most cases too, it's perfectly fine. We have great relationships. So you have that uh I just let her know that you have that kind of you know scale to work with, and that's believable to me. I don't I don't see anything wrong with that. It's like, yep, been there, done it. And that was kind of a surprise to her when she heard that, and because she all as far as she knows, everything's always you know good relationship stuff. And she's like, Okay, cool, all right, all right. That's that I was just curious about that. That's interesting to say that you're saying that, and uh, thank you for that. And and I honestly didn't know the Benghazi team guys, I didn't know I didn't know Rome, I didn't know Tegan and Paranto and the Jack Silver character. That's that's a that's a pseudonym, I guess. And boom. Didn't know any of those guys. Didn't know of them, didn't hear about them.

Host 2:40:08

I thought that was interesting because when we did our podcast prep, I mean, that being such a small agency and you know the the global and the contractors, you kind of made mention that that was kind of interesting that you didn't know them.

SPEAKER_02 2:40:21

Yeah.

Host 2:40:23

What does that say about who they were?

SPEAKER_02 2:40:26

Well, so and and they do depict what Ron does. He calls a guy who's he's familiar with to to come out and and help him in the mission. That was the Jack Silva character. So they share experiences and stuff like that. I did the same thing, and my decision to do that when I did it is like you know, I need some more experience here. Or these guys are okay at what they're doing, they're good at what they do, but I need I need some more I need some more experience here. I don't I don't need uh, you know, not nothing against those guys, but yeah, I need more, I mean need more guy, no, more doers. I don't need more followers, I need more PFCs here, I need more, you know, guys who are who know what they're doing and act a little bit more professionally, right? And and so if so right now, if I was if I was their team started and a team leader and I'm talking to those guys, for I've never met Paranto, I've never met these guys, I've met Mark Geis, a great guy. Every time I hear his story, side of the story, great stuff. He's a very humble guy, he did a lot of great shit, just like uh they all did. And he's he's thankful to be alive, and he's oh you know, like what you would expect somebody to be talking about in their experiences. He's not having to say anything negative about anything, and it's like so. If I had to talk to talk to those guys right now, it's like hey, cool your jets, man. You did a great job. Like, thank you, first of all. You saved lives, and good job. You didn't get recognized. But so I so to the on the aging side side too, they didn't handle that them that well either. So I get the the level of, you know, they're upset or disgruntled or whatever it is they're that is motivating them to just be upset. So in my mind, it's like okay, they're not over it yet, even though they say they're over it, it's still just something in their head that's just killing them. It's like be comfortable with what you did, you didn't get the recognition you deserve. You know, welcome to the team, man. You're not the only ones that did stuff that needed some recognition, and you got shit from it. So just be good with your performance. And they did some they did some cool shit, and and a lot of that stuff they had to do, like decision making on their own. So yeah, they have everything to be proud of, they have nothing to be upset about. It and if one, if it's if they're just not over it, then okay, well, hey, get some help for that stuff, right? And you're not the only one who's done like stuff like that, like super human stuff, and not been recognized for it. You know, it is what it is, man. So get over it, shut up, right? Just be good with what you did, be proud of what they did, because they did some good shit. And yes, there was a lot of decisions, and we were talking about coaster. There were a lot of decisions that probably are not agreeable, right? From and probably resulted in kind of the stuff that was happening, but it happened, and the way they dealt with things, you know, good on them. But just get over it.

Host 2:43:37

They had a team leader that was hardly depicted in the film.

SPEAKER_02 2:43:41

Staff guy. Yep.

Host 2:43:43

And early on in the film, I think Rome calls them, and when they land in Benghazi to pick up Silva from the airport, and they're driving back and they get stopped at a checkpoint, and it's getting kind of frosty. They call somebody back at headquarters. I didn't know until I talked to you that that's they were talking to the actual staff guy that was in charge of the team.

SPEAKER_02 2:44:01

Yep, and yeah, another another good guy, and unfortunately, he was probably kept out of any kind of discussions because they did go to uh headquarters and they talked to headquarters before the the movie script was coming out, or the transcript for the movies and all that stuff. So they have to get approval for that, and they did. That might have been some of the things they talked about, as long as you don't mention the guys, they depict him in the back background scenes sometimes, put a New York ball cap on him. And for those of us who know him, it's like that's who that is. Yeah, he and he still, after all his congressional testimonies and all that stuff, he he had to do that, and so he did it. And after that, he was done, he was smoked. And so during that time frame, though, I when we go back, so I even after our evacuation in 2014, we're going back to Libya, and he's one of the guys rotating with me to go make it happen. So there were three of us. So me, so the guy that's the staffer that was in Benghazi, the team leader there, who it's probably depicted in a negative way, right? But the I I think some of that was the misunderstanding of well whose job, what's his job, right? He so he's not gonna be there, you know, fisticoving with you. He's he's managing the chaos. So that means, hey, I got a gun there, there's a guy with a gun there, and the guy with the gun over there. Okay, we're good. Hey, I gotta I gotta do some other stuff, right? I gotta manage this chaos. And if he's got a time, or if there's targets and there's a threat, then yeah, absolutely. He's picking up his gun and shooting. But I think there's the at that was part of the thing, and there's a lot of things, and uh, and and you mentioned it earlier on too it's like I was the most respected, you know, staffer and all that stuff. He might have not had that kind of clout or with those guys from the guys who had worked with him before, we're we're fine with him. They they thought he was a good team leader, and there might be just some confusion with the guys that are the the most upset right now about what they thought he should have been doing, and that's kind of the tone that the whole movie takes. It's like they have an issue with what's going on, with what your decision and your decision. Well, if you just did what I told you to do, we'd be okay. Not necessarily, but it's the it's the confusion or the lack of knowledge of the the bigger picture stuff and the guys that eventually well so the the actual actions on target, if you're talking about actions on objective and they go to the embassy, regardless of that actually resulted as a as a like I'm gonna go on my own, we're gonna do it anyway. I don't care what you say, chief. We're gonna we're gonna go do this. Excuse me. If that's if that's how it happened, okay, cool. They went over there and they did some great shit, right? And so be proud of that. Uh talk, talk about it like you're proud of that. And and yeah, and and just just have some good shit, man. They saved lives. I mean, how can you how can you you know be upset about that? I honestly think that's that's a lot of it. Just be comfortable with what you did, be proud of what you did, and don't worry about all the crap that's happened because you're not the only one that's ever been there like that. Deal with it, it happened. So the they get over there and the the staff guys with them at at the anecdot or the embassy. Um, they don't depict that, but he was there, and so I I know his story and I know what was happening based off of the actual documents that I was reading, but also I we were together in Misrata afterwards, sitting on a rooftop, waiting for another assault again, waiting for another attack. And so the conversation we're having sitting on top of the roof, because we're the only ones there, really. He just says, yeah. And he gives credit to all the contractors, and he says that all the time. He said that all the time. I haven't talked to him in several years. He said that all the time. Because I, hey, good job, man. You know, that kind of stuff to him. And he's like, Yeah, it was all of our guys, man, all of our contractors, the other ones did the the all the meat of the work and all that stuff, and they're the ones actively engaged in stuff. I was just kind of just managing the chaos. And some of that might have been also trying to get that relationship between the chief of chief of base there and keeping them off their their ass. And you know, I'm sure that was happening because I've been in that situation too. And then he becomes, I'm gonna protect my guys to do what they're doing and keep the wolves off of these guys because they got it, they got a job to do. So there's there's that. Sure, there was some of that going on, but who knows? So the the to your earlier point where I should have known who these guys were, should have heard of them or some sort. And not not that they were, and if they hear me say this, it I this is just where my head's at. I was like, I know the guys in Tripoli. That's like the varsity team. And because they're they they have JSOC guys there, and the the senior guys that I know there, the guys that Bub is there, there's some other guys that I know I've worked with before. Like these these guys I know. I know their name, I've worked with them, they're solid guys. So why don't I know those guys? And so in my mind, that's the JV team, must be the JV guys, right? And they they can push back all they want to on me for saying that stuff, and that's fine. But that's just where my head's at. I don't know them still to this day. I've met Mark, love that guy. He's a good dude. Mark Geist. I've met him at the Shot Show actually, and I've seen some of his his stuff too, because I was asked to watch all these interviews and guest speaking engagements and all that stuff. He just talks more like a guy that who's, you know, happy he's alive, proud of what he did, and he's good with it in his life. The guys that are just the loudest right now, I I don't know what what their their beef is. I get it, you know, why they would be upset about things that are happening, decisions that were made that weren't that they didn't agree with or whatever it was. The the actions of the unit guys and all that stuff. There that I think that's just a disconnect of what they thought they should have seen these guys do, and they had no clue about what their orders were. So, both on the CIA and the unit. So I wasn't there, and they can say that all day long. Well, you weren't there, you don't know. It's like, well, I know the unit and I know G RS and I know the agency. So that movement from Tripoli that just doesn't happen. They just don't, hey, let's go, let's go to Benghazi because they're in a firefight and we're gonna make that decision our own. Everybody at SOCOM, JSOC, and CIA headquarters know but knew about it. This is the situation, this is what we're gonna do about it. The unit guys, as far as I know, they have a mission now to go get the ambassador, go save the ambassador because they're being attacked. That was their specific role. So, are they gonna get there? What are they gonna do when they get there? They're gonna try to find the ambassador. Where's the ambassador, right? I again, I wasn't there, I wasn't on that team. I know the guys that were there, they're not slip shot guys. These are like these are these are like the best that we had. And still, some of those guys are on the crew. I think they're still working. They're they're literally the best thinkers, operators, if you want to call operating. I hate that word, but the best GS guys that we had. And that's why I call them the varsity team, the tripy team. And plus, they're interacting with unit guys, the varsity team, right? So that that that's why I'm make I'm saying what I'm saying. And primary effort and all that stuff is in Tripoli and and those kind of things. Yeah, bad things happened, and they those guys should be and so also on the agency side, they didn't they didn't re reward award or anything. They actually came after those guys to to any money you guys make off these books and movies, we're gonna sue you for it. So I wasn't happy about that either. I was like, some some somebody just have an honest conversation with them.

Host 2:52:00

Like was that because they violated NDAs?

SPEAKER_02 2:52:02

I would assume they're all under NDAs for I don't know when that decision was happening, but that was probably that that's an easy thing to say if you're gonna target somebody like that. Even myself, they can come after me like that too. It's like, hey, you sign here, you weren't gonna say anything or whatever. But it's these kind of conversations too that I was having all my whole career about things that were going on, good or bad or indifferent. Just just own up to it, be responsible, and just just tell me. Just talk to me like a like like a grown man, right? I ain't gonna give it back to you the way you're gonna need to hear it. Not what you want to hear, maybe, but you're gonna need to hear this. So I think, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, just like we were saying, if if if their awards are getting upgraded to a Medal of Honor, okay. I wasn't there. I don't I don't know what exactly happened. If that if that's a decision, okay, cool. Good for those guys, right? I don't I don't know uh uh what the criteria is that they met and all this other stuff. So good on them.

Host 2:53:00

If it happens, and if it if it does, I'm about to mention the the you know if they were in the unit, that's part of JSOC. I mean the unit in of itself, a lot of that's classified, it wouldn't be open to the public, their awards wouldn't be open to the public. I don't even think those dudes' names have been mentioned, nor should they.

SPEAKER_02 2:53:14

So, you know, there's and they shouldn't feel obligated to answer it in this all social media stuff because I just like you were saying, that it's just I I don't agree with it, all the drama that's going on right now. Bets picking on bets, and also and I get it, I understand what they're saying. Hey, we gotta take care of our own. It's like, well, then talk to them. Don't put a don't you don't have to have this whole podcast for it.

Host 2:53:34

Well, the thing is that's because it's drama clips, and that's kind of why you know I wanted to have you maybe not set the record straight per se, but at least give you know a different side. Because I've I heard someone say, Man, those Delta Force guys should come on and defend themselves. Defend themselves to fucking who? Yeah, no, that's not how that works.

SPEAKER_02 2:53:53

And I'm sure they're saying the same thing. I don't feel obligated to answer that kind of mail. Yeah, and they shouldn't feel obligated to do that. And again, because they're probably they knew what they were doing and they did it, and they're there and none of those guys did it for awards anyway.

Host 2:54:07

They're in Tripoli, they get told, hey, we gotta go there. Uh, I know they I think they flew into Benghazi, got jammed up at the airport. Like, I'm sure those guys want to get there as soon as they could. And you know, obviously they had a different mission than the contractors who were on the ground.

SPEAKER_02 2:54:18

Yeah, and I don't think it takes a genius to to figure that out, but and it wasn't, and I love Bub, I know Bub, I work with Bub, great dude. That's why he's on the varsity team in Tripoli. But he wouldn't have been the one, you know, making things happen at the airport or that he would probably be in involved because that's the kind of person he is, and he probably would have been asked to assist in some things, but because that's that's the kind of guy he was, and he was that proficient. Absolutely all day long. I would him and the guys in Tripoli, the guys that came over from Tripoli on that team. Absolutely the varsity team. Uh, not that they would have turned the tide if they showed up earlier and got in a fight with all with the guys in Baghazi. They didn't they did good on their own, really. So the the accomplishments that they should be proud of, those four guys, holy shit.

Host 2:55:08

Yeah, they fought for what 24 hours, 12 hours?

SPEAKER_02 2:55:10

It was yeah, fulfilled all through the evening, things calmed down, another firefight, another time. Good on all those dudes. Oh man, yes, absolutely. And just just relax, man. Just I don't know, take a Xanax or something. I don't know. So if I was to talk to them right now as as a their team leader and and stuff like that, even if I just talk to them now, it's like, dude, just fucking relax, man. Thank you and relax. I I you know I I it's not like I gotta say, well, hey, it happened to me too, and all this other stuff because people do a lot of things that don't get recognized, don't get awarded, and stuff like that. It's like, okay, so what?

Host 2:55:50

But let's just so I can understand, and maybe so the listeners can understand, what awards could they have gotten? I mean, they're contractors.

SPEAKER_02 2:55:57

Yeah, so there is they do have equivalent, like if you're a staff officer or if you're a contractor, and then your contribution to anything, really. And then it's really almost kind of based off of the military uh system of awarding things. So whether you're in a firefight, whether you're not a firefight, whether it was a war zone or not a war zone, a high threat area by the combat zone, you know, all kinds of stuff.

Host 2:56:21

If you were shot at, if you were injured, you know, all why would they not be put in for awards? Man, what they did was pretty heroic, just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 2:56:29

You know, I don't agree with that on the agency side either. They were upset, uh either rightfully or or or not. So you even in life, right? We're not defined, our lives aren't defined by one one thing, right? It's a it's a complete look at your whole life, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:56:50

So everybody's like, if you're going to heaven, it's not that one thing that's gonna hold you up. It's like all this stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:56:57

And so absolutely apply that to everything that you do or don't do, right? Just do the best you can, do the best, be the person, be the best person you are, do the best at whatever it is you're doing, right? So I I don't agree with that. And the the and it wasn't the agency overall, it was a it was a specific office, specific person who was doing that. And uh the I won't name the office or the person, but they were that's where that that I retribute, I don't know what it was. It's like, no, you guys are gonna talk, talk smack, then we're we're not gonna we're not gonna recognize you kind of thing. So I got an attitude for you for saying anything. You know, that's kind of my how I'm gonna describe what the environment at the time was. And I I absolutely disagree with that too. It's like, well, you you can't erase what they did. That's worth recognizing recognition and whatever award or not, if that's important to them, it's not to me, but if it's important to them, sure. Absolutely. What did what did you know, what did you do? Holy crap, they did a lot of shit. So I wasn't agree, I didn't agree with how they handled that either. That's that's a management thing uh in our divisions that uh I didn't agree with at the time either. But that's kind of the attitude that they took. And yeah. Uh and and not that they should do anything now. I don't think they're obligated to like retrograde anything and say, hey, you guys need deserves these awards back then and you get them now. Because really that's just a pandering, you know, not sincere kind of thing that would happen. I think I I wouldn't like right now, they probably wouldn't. It's like, well, screw your award. I don't want your Your recognition kind of thing at this point.

Host 2:58:43

I got a couple questions you may or may not know the answer to, but from your perspective and from the reporting, what were the clear signs that Bengazi was becoming more dangerous in the weeks leading up to the attack? Do you were you I mean, did you did you go back and look at that stuff just because you were working as a supervisor?

SPEAKER_02 2:59:01

So yeah, I did find out what what they're doing. I mean, what what are they doing in the first place? Then as I'm reading through the the the messaging, you know, it seem seems pretty pretty normal for that situation. I mean, uh it's a year after the overthrow of the government and a lot of things are going on. And yeah, it it didn't seem uh so it trip Libya in general. That is just that is a pile of matchsticks waiting to ignite all the time, and that was so impredictable of what's gonna happen, especially during those times. Yeah, it was very it was a very I'm gonna just say it was a very dynamic environment. And you just had to be ready for any number of things to happen at any one time. There's there's militias fighting each other, there's foreign fighters coming in, there's some sort of rat line. We got to try to find where are all these weapons going, and Syria was one of the directions they were headed to, you know, and and so and then just getting around later on, and I'm talking I finally get on ground 2013, and I find out that the the the area the area is so dynamic. We have now mercenaries, if you want to call them that, pilots that are flying Russian pilots who are flying Megs for whoever in Libya. That's like who needs a bomb drop?

Host 3:00:28

I mean, Libya sounded like the wild west.

SPEAKER_02 3:00:32

Yes. Literally, if you can if there's no way to paint that picture. Like I just said, there was like Russian mercenaries, and it wasn't the the popular one that Wagner group. Yeah, it wasn't them, as far as we can tell. It was just one guy, and he was a pilot, and then he he he's a retired pilot in in the Russian Air Force, right? And now he's living, he was probably living in Ukraine or something, probably, right? Down in the Donboss area, and he thought saw an opportunity to make some money. So he goes to Libya and he's flying MIGs for whoever wants him to fly. And I'm pretty sure that he was employed by you know pretty much everybody that was out there.

Host 3:01:11

Were you a part of any of the debriefs that went on at GRS after the Benghazi attacks?

SPEAKER_02 3:01:18

No.

Host 3:01:19

Did they do like a I mean I know Congress did, but did you guys learn anything, change any TTPs? Did anything change after that? No. That's pretty wild, actually. Yeah, I mean, we lose a US ambassador and a bunch of CIA contractors, and like it's just business as usual. What do you think that is attributable to the to what to who was in the administration at the time or possibly, but when you think about it too, the team in Tripoli was different.

SPEAKER_02 3:01:51

So even how those two teams were differing, and what it's okay, it's it's absolutely two different cities, two just different parts of Libya. Uh you know, yes, one thing that won't always template to another thing, especially in Libya. It's just total chaos.

Host 3:02:06

I think, and my understanding is Tripoli was like actioning targets, and there was things that were going on in Tripoli that weren't going on in Benghazi. I think the Benghazi team was there to just collect information on the weapons. Yeah, and I heard all kinds of like I've read all kinds of stuff about oh, there was a black site, CIA rendition site in Benghazi, and that's why you know, that's why there was a delayed response, that's why Clinton tried to cover it up. Because she I think she was what she ran the State Department, she was a state, yeah. But I don't know, like looking back, I don't know. I mean, I think America loves a good conspiracy, myself included, man. There's been plenty of them. And I I think I read a meme the other day. It's like 2026, we're running out of conspiracies because they've all come true. But this one, man, it's it's interesting when you pick apart because I think what people don't understand is there was so much shit going on in Libya. I mean, not just what we had going on in Benghazi, but just like the country as a whole, you know, and we're we're gonna dive into it here in in just a second. But I was just curious if you were a part of the debriefs or if anything had changed or any of the information that came out. But it's kind of interesting. I mean, there was a lot of shit that came out of Coast, and you know, they lost a bunch of people. So it's interesting that that and from what I understand, I mean, I have I had friends that were either kind of involved on the tertiary with Libya or you know on the Intel side. But I mean, I had a friend who was on State Department's MSD team, which is their kind of cat team or whatever. They'd been in Benghazi, I think, the week or two prior, and they had made a full assessment to boost, you know, the the State Department guys. I mean, because the State Department was running pretty light to be protecting an ambassador in that Indian country, and again, that was ignored, you know. And I mean, we can talk about the Iranian stuff now.

SPEAKER_02 3:03:44

I mean, well, so to your point though, on that, that like what why where were the state guys? Because ambassadors have details from the State Department. So all a lot of things that really nobody's those are those are the things about Benghazi that the that's where everybody should be pushing, right? Journalists, like Fox News, everybody. They got the so they they got it wrong on the the what sees stand down, right? So they they the guys at Benghazi got that word to stand down, it came from their chief, their local guy. It didn't so from what I remember the reporting, the the news reports, Fox News even got it wrong. They were trying to pin that that statement on either Hillary Clinton or Obama. And they may have said it at one point, but what these guys knew, they heard it straight from that their chief's mouth. And that's where it stopped. For those, that that statement for those guys, and what they were talking about in that statement was coming from them. Our contractors would have not heard that from the president or the sex state. It would have came through the channels and they would have heard that.

Host 3:04:50

They wouldn't have heard it directly like that, except if it's Yeah, because how many levels are there between the Secretary of State and you know the Benghazi Chiva Station? There's it's probably like 47 layers, maybe to I'd be like, yeah. Uh again, man, I'm not here to defend Hillary Clinton or or President Obama. Yeah, let's be honest about that. I just want to make that crystal clear. I'm definitely not defending them.

SPEAKER_02 3:05:12

There are a lot of issues there that nobody pushed on the right way to get those answers, including why does GRS have to provide security for the ambassador, an ambassador in Benghazi, Libya at the time. Where's the deal? Where's the State Department, guys? You know, so right off the top of my head, okay, where were they? Well, what's the deal? Who's who's asking those questions, right? And then then why why are why is the ambassador being targeted? Well, or was it the ambassador they were targeting?

Host 3:05:40

Oh, we're gonna get into that, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:05:41

Right. So is it is it just because there's Americans there, we're grabbing them all, or why are we at why are we doing this? What what's what's who's who's pushing those buttons?

Host 3:05:49

So that's a great, that's a great point. So when I started preparing for your interview, I started looking at all kinds of stuff, right? Because, you know, I I have a background in looking into things. And so I started trying to peep put the pieces together to try to you know to figure out the right questions to ask to make sure we have a an honest conversation about it. I have a really good friend. I, you know, works in the intelligence industry. I'll just leave it at that. I'm still active in that industry, but he was on a project at the time where they were tracking targets at a at an international level for you know, tier one targets for Al-Qaeda and ISIS and whoever else. And they were looking at a target, and I think in Dharna, is that how you say it? Yeah. In Libya? Yeah. And I don't know how far that is from Benghazi, but as they were looking for that target using technical means, there were some Iranian dudes that came up on their radar. And they run by Department 840, I think that's what they're called. You can find them in open source, but basically it's a it's a coulds force run by Solomonni. It's a they're a direct action team. And when they show up, Americans start dying. And so, you know, my buddy had had kind of told me, again, and all this is open source, so nothing he told me was remotely, you know, classified, but basically they they notified Tripoli and Benghazi that, hey man, these dudes are in the area, and whenever these dudes start showing up, Americans start dying. And so he had told me that. And so I kind of looked into that and we found I found some links that were pretty easy to find, and there's actually been a book written. And basically, Soleimani and the Iranians had ordered the capture of the ambassador. They were going in there to get Stevens, they sent an entire strike team, they infiltrated into Benghazi under the cover of Red Crescent, and I think it was you know four or six dudes. And I'll put the link of the book. Ken Tennerman, I believe, wrote the book. And, you know, these the this could force team comes comes in, they're you know operating under the Red Crescent, and you know, we picked up chatter. There was some local militia chatter talking about the Iranians being in town. And the Iranians got word that you know the agency knew that they were in town and they staged their own kidnapping. So basically they made it look like that I don't know if it was 17 Feb or Anzar Al, what was the the group? Anzar all Sharia. Anzar Al Sharia had kidnapped them and were holding them. But basically they they ran a front and made it look like they were kidnapped and got out of there. But what they were there to do was they brought, I think, $10 million to Ansar Al Sharia, paid all those dudes off. And once that they realized that they had been knocked off by the CIA, that turned into a kill mission. And basically, they I mean they paid the militia to attack the embassy and kill the ambassador. And if you really look into that, that kind of makes sense as to why Trump, when he gets in office, orders the strike on Soleimani. Because our government had known where Solomon was for a while. They didn't know it wasn't a secret. He had been operating in Iraq, Afghanistan, they knew where he was. I'm sure we had units. I know the Mossad has probably definitely kept up with him. So why wait? You know, and I'm sure there's all kind of politics, but I yeah, I don't know Trump, obviously, but knowing what we see on his media, not give a shit and how he loves this country. I'm sure if that dude got reports and our government, you know, his administration got reports of you know the Iranians killing a U.S. ambassador. Well, that totally makes sense of why they they killed him. And they killed him with that. That was a cool strike, too, man. They got Solomon with it was like a Ginsu bomb. It's like a knife bomb, right? They dropped the a laser guided, the thing turns into a giant knife and literally shredded the car.

SPEAKER_02 3:09:26

Oh, yeah, I can't think of the actual name of that thing. Yeah, yeah. Awesome weaponry. It's just impressive. Very, very specific to targeting uh folks and without literal collateral damage.

Host 3:09:39

My buddy was was very specific in the fact that they passed that information off. And and I won't use her name, but there's been a female who's been on a couple podcasts who works in the Intel industry, you know, who you know claims to know everything about Benghazi and you know, help target. But she was also working in Tripoli when you know that report came in, and it was the agency that blew them off and told them, hey, you guys are being paranoid, you know, don't worry about this Department 840. Well, then you fast forward, you know, uh the our embassy get gets overrun. So it's it's definitely interesting, you know, kind of how all that stuff has been ignored.

SPEAKER_02 3:10:15

Yeah, and so uh the the story is everybody went towards the the the micro, like what what the guys are complaining about on on on site, um Prompto and Tag and the guys that are writing books and movies and stuff like that. All right, so that totally so and to my earlier point too is like okay, awesome, thank you. Give these guys some sort of an order or something like that. And but who who's we hear answer all three a lot about the their involvement in this whole thing, and so why? Why is it them and what was their intent, right? And who are they acting on their own? Because there is a lot of that going on, there's a lot of fighting going on amongst everybody there, and but that was a highly coordinated attack, it seemed like.

Host 3:10:59

I mean, just it seemed like you know, they just overran that, and I don't know, man. We'd been there a while, they could have easily done that prior to, you know, and to your point, man. I mean, there was a lot of foreign adversaries in Benghazi, yeah, not just the Iranians. But let's be honest, man. I mean, we've we've been I mean, the whole time I was in Afghanistan. I mean, anytime Department 840 showed up in Afghanistan or Iraq, dude, I mean, they it was Kud's force and the Iranians that designed the what was the copper IED that was taking out everybody, was going right through our our our armored cars. I can't think what it's called. Yeah, um EFPs. The EFPs, yeah. That's all Iranians. Yep. I mean, we were running against the Iranian, the foreign fighter networks. I mean, the Iranians were training the the Taliban in Pakistan. They were running all the suicide bombers out of the sharia, out of the, you know, they're recruiting kids out of school and people out of mosques. You know, they're the Iran. We've been running a proxy war with Iran for for for quite a while. And I just think it's interesting how that stuff has never come out. Dark Forces is the name of the book. Kenneth Tennerman, I believe, is the author, but I mean that guy wrote an entire book on how I Iran was involved in Benghazi. And it's just interesting that it's never, if it's been talked about, I've never heard it. And not so that doesn't necessarily mean, but I mean, I've never- It's not making the headlines now.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:17

No, yeah, everybody keeps going back to these little small things.

Host 3:12:21

And and you know, that just goes to speak that if it was, you know, the Iranians and this was more coordinated. I mean, you know, who knows? Like those guys, you know, although we lost four US citizens, sitting ambassador, it's a tragedy, man. Like those dudes are all heroes regardless, period. But you know, it it does, you know, there could have been a lot more going on. And again, when you're talking about geopolitics, foreign countries, especially Iran and Russia, China, not everything's gonna make it to the mainstream media.

SPEAKER_02 3:12:52

Yeah, and a a lot of things that happen in Libya too. There that's it sometimes it's an isolated incident. It's uh infighting stuff, but not when you're talking about the the big players. Is there's usually some somebody's somebody supporting these things, and all those discussions and all those things are were not the questions everybody's asking.

Host 3:13:12

Well, and you go back to coast, balawi, I mean, it was Palestinian, you know, by by birth, grew up in Jordan, but you know, that dude became radicalized when you know one there was you know US got involved in Gaza, I think it was 0809, and that's what flipped him, you know, to get super pissed off. Well, you know, who runs who runs Hamas, man? It's the the Iranians. I mean, the Iranians have been heavily involved in Hezbollah and Hamas, you know, for for a while. And again, man, that's not my background, but you know, when you start reading these things and putting the pieces together and seeing a much bigger picture, it's definitely becomes a much different conversation. There was something else I wanted to talk to you about that you brought up, you know, because I asked you last night, like, why did why would we delay a response, right? There was a CIF in, I think they were in Italy. There was SEAL teams on the carriers. Um, and I I think if I remember right, there was an admiral that was relieved within the week of Benghazi and he was sending the SEALs regardless. And I think it's at the time it he was a carrier commander. It was the only time I I know of at the time that a carrier strike force commander was relieved. It was very quiet. Uh, but I remembered it. Supposedly he was relieved because he violated the order and would try to send a SEAL team out there. When they I I think Centcom relieved him. I don't know if it could have been during it, or I don't remember. I'll have to go back and look that up. But you you you made an interesting point when we were talking last night that there was a lot of that firefight wasn't like 12 hours of constant, you know, gunfights. There was fights, lulls, fights, lulls. Will you kind of speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 3:14:45

Yeah, I mean, so from the the embassy, the consulate attack throughout the night until they left. That's kind of the flow of how things went. And it so in those unpredictable times, you don't know if there's another one coming, there's another coming, who's coming, what are they bringing next? Is it just a matter of time before they get bigger stuff there? And those kind of things are is probably what they were thinking of. And like, how many guys are there? Like, first attack, second attack, we just slayed a bunch of dudes, right? And they're coming with some more. So where are they coming from? You know, that kind of stuff. So that that happens throughout the night. So if if if I'm gonna be give the benefit of the doubt of the the the decision makers, you know, they thought at one point it's safe and secure. Like, so they go to the GRS guys go to the annex, get the State Department folks, they go to the the Annex, and the only person they don't have have accountability for is the ambassador. So, okay, the the the scene is safe. All right, they're all at the annex, they're safe. So, okay, we spun up all these people, and then if I'm gonna give them the benefit of the I make the kind of decision, then okay, relax, it's okay, right? And then another attack comes, and now it's not okay. So get your guys back in their kit and you know, start boarding planes and stuff like that. Then then it stops. It's like, well, don't don't have the so w what I was told in 2014 was probably the same thing. We don't want to make it look like so. This was the lead from behind time in Libya. So US isn't taking point on things. So the French and the British are doing all the the bombing and all that stuff. So they're they're the point people, and it's the lead from behind. Obama and Clinton are saying things, but they're saying our partners are taking the lead on this thing. And so that if you give them the benefit of the doubt on decision making, they thought several times everything was okay, and then we don't want to escalate to look like we're invading Libya and we're taking over from the French and the British, and you guys get out of the way, we're in, kind of thing. So maybe that's what we were told. We in 2014 when we evacuated that they don't want the impression that we're invading Libya, and so and we were ready for that though. So we were going to school on the whole thing that just happened in Libya and thinking, honest, honest brokers, it's like, okay, we might be on our run for this because we just saw it happen the year before that. And so that's those are the things we're getting prepared for, and then we were just ready for it when it happened for no support. Yeah, yeah.

Host 3:17:24

I one of the things that was also interesting is my buddy who had sent that information about Department 840 a week after Benghazi happens, State Department of the Agency go to their office N DC and wipe all their servers. So they were running Palantir, they were using Palantir back then, and they went in there and took all of their data, which I thought was extremely interesting. And he was like, Yeah, man, they wiped our entire hard drives, couldn't even do anything. So it's just a whole I mean I mean, in your experience, how plausible is it that a foreign state backed operator like Iran were active inside Libya in 2012?

SPEAKER_02 3:18:01

Very believable. Yeah, if that was a story that came out, I would it's perfectly believable. And it's logical, makes sense, because the this the amount of chaos that was there at the time. Yeah, absolutely.

Host 3:18:15

I mean, is it pretty realistic that a foreign intelligence service, you know, could have used Answer Al-Sharia as a proxy while keeping their own involvement hidden? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:18:23

Absolutely.

Host 3:18:25

As far as Benghazi's concerned, I mean, what did GRS do right that night that people still don't fully understand or appreciate?

SPEAKER_02 3:18:33

Anything all the tactical operations at night and successful egress, right? And lost some guys in in the in in the on the way in the process, but saved lives, saved lives at night. And unfortunately, you know, we we lost a couple, and it wasn't anybody's fault. That was an unpredictable thing that had happened. The the the the accuracy of the actual mortar rounds, all these little detail things, like the accuracy of the mortar rounds. How does that even happen? This is a professional crew, like the professional, whatever you want to call it, but they knew what they were doing, and somebody was spotting for them, right? So whether they were direct lay, who knows all these other questions, right? But the guys launching from from Tripoli, you know, you know it seems like if you're not if you're not paying attention to big picture stuff, it seems like they were they're the only their only reason to go to Benghazi was to help the the fight that was happening in Benghazi. Probably not the case. There's probably another secondary mission that they were going there to do, other than you guys got this. I would have said the same thing had I got there. It's like, okay, you guys got this, you're on rooftops doing the stuff. All right, good, good for you. I I got another mission to do, and I'm here to do that mission. Like, okay, you got this. We're gonna keep progress going here. And nobody would have expected the the mortars to fall. When it did, guess what? That's the worst place you want to be is on a rooftop. So you don't run to the rooftops, so in any indirect fire attacks, you run under cover, right? The best you can. If you don't have something to hide under, then you can get on the ground flat. So that's that's the immediate reaction. Any other any grunt level guy knows is like when you hear the whistling, hit the deck, right? You don't go running to the top, you don't go running if if you have a bunker, dive in that bunker. If you have some sort of protection, if you're inside, stay inside. You know, all those things. So I don't see anything wrong with. What transpired that night. And then is that the last one? Is that the last mortar attack? Who knows? It was on and off all night. So, is this going to continue on? Who knows? We just, it's not a good place to be on the high ground on the rooftops if another mortar attack comes, because they just proved how accurate they can be. So get everybody off the rooftop. And that was the priority from what I hear to get off the rooftops because they're starting to mortar us now. This is not a good place to be. And what I do know all the through all the chaos after the injuries, the unit guys were literally so and I carry around my my 20 feet of tubular nylon for the same reason. I can fashion it and put a guy on my back and carry him like a backpack. They got a guy off the roof like that. The State Department guy who was injured on the rooftop. I say injured, he was jacked. He was he was messed up. And they put this harness on him, made a harness around him on the backpack and down the ladder. And they have issues getting down the ladder because it's a vertical ladder. They have issues. So these are the things that I know happened, just talking to the guys over there. They get stuck, they get body parts stuck in the ladder as he's trying to get down. It's problematic because he's trying to get down a ladder with somebody on your back, right? One of the guys from the triple A team is also injured getting up a ladder. His foot goes through the rungs, and I think he has a knee injury when that happens, and now he's he's he's on the ladder, whatever that ladder was. He's he's injured now and he's junking up the ladderway.

Host 3:22:10

That was the drama, right? The guys they threw the bodies off the roof.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:13

Is that they threw Roan, right? So they they picked that off the movie. I don't know how they just show one guy or something, right? Yeah, everybody gets off the ladders. So that that's what I also know was happening at the time. So these ladder, they're they're not made for that. They're they're okay. We're gonna do what we can. So they already tried that with that one.

Host 3:22:36

The state's product explains why they threw them off the roof.

SPEAKER_02 3:22:38

Yeah, so it's like, okay, before the next mortar attack, we need to get off this roof, you know, hurry up. So I I get that. I get that. Okay, well, we we can't do any more damage. And so I probably would have did the same thing. Jumped off myself, or you know, all these things. It all makes sense to me when I hear about it and think about what I probably would have done or what I what I probably would have liked to have seen, or if I was in the same situation, it'll all make sense to me.

Host 3:23:07

But yeah, I don't I don't get I don't get all the from your from your position as a GRS supervisor, what do you think was a single biggest failure that led to some of the deaths in Benghazi? If you could speak on to it.

SPEAKER_02 3:23:23

Well, so failure is a hard I wouldn't uh I actually wouldn't say it was a failure. It was it was a success in my mind. So yeah, we lost some guys and bad things happened. But the amount of lives that were saved, minus the four that that died that that success.

Host 3:23:50

Unfortunately, you know and the ambassador uh maybe you can speak to this. The ambassador was out of Tripoli, right? He was there visiting Benghazi. I don't remember why he was there. Is that right? Or was he the I don't think he was stationed? Not in Benghazi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was coming from Tripoli. Yeah. So I'm sure the State Department had to, they probably changed some of their TTPs. Right. Because they seem like they were pretty they had a really light team.

SPEAKER_02 3:24:13

Yeah. So I mean, and to your point too, earlier, that they were already there. They had all these recommendations uh for increasing the security in Benghazi. I don't know. And nobody Yeah, because usually they go overboard. That that's like the State Department anywhere. Like they're it's like, okay, this is a bit much on security.

Host 3:24:28

I'm wondering if they were running low pro for a reason, right? Like there's more going on that and you know, maybe there's parts of the story that we'll never learn because there's intelligence involved and could be stuff that you know that the American public doesn't always need to know. There's this idea that the American public should know everything that's going on. I don't think they I think if the American people knew everything that's going on, they wouldn't be able to sleep at night. That's the whole that's the whole thing, right? Like that's what they get paid for, right? Exactly. I mean, trust me, as somebody who's lived in the know in various parts of my career, and I'm sure you can speak to this as well. There's some people like the American, there's some things that the population just doesn't need to know.

SPEAKER_02 3:25:01

Probably better off now.

Host 3:25:02

Yeah, no, like the world is a violent, evil place. So just be thankful that there's people. What's the old George Orwell quote? I mean, rough men, you know, people sleep, people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. And they're there is some of that. Well, I mean, is there anything? I mean, we could have I could ask you a million questions about Benghazi, but I don't know. Is there anything that you really think is important to to talk about?

SPEAKER_02 3:25:30

About Benghazi? Yeah. Man, if anybody hears that story, has heard about the story, watched maybe, read the books, all that stuff, and hears all the drama going on, just you know, just understand that man, there was some heroic stuff that happened on night, bad night for everybody, but great things came out of that. So be proud of those guys and what they did. And yeah, well, don't get absorbed in all the drama stuff. But that's that's how you know the social media stuff goes nowadays.

Host 3:26:02

It's clicks, man. Nobody wants to hear the positive, dude. The the negative always goes a lot farther, man, which is kind of sad. And and it seems like we've been doing a horrible job in the vet community. There's a lot of vet drama, and like you know, there's guys that have whole channels, and their whole channel's designed to pull drama about this guy and that guy, and it's like, who wins from that? Like, why are veterans eating our own? Do we do dumb shit? Yeah, sure. But why are we not trying to use our media platforms to to build people up or just tell the story without a without a drama slant? I think that's why I was telling you I don't really care for that podcaster that we talk about quite often. I'm just not a fan of that guy because he's he he's deep into drama, David Hook said. But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:26:48

Kind of so I like I like the research he puts into these things, right? He he and so from that perspective of he he he's got contacts. I don't know who his contacts are, but he's he does his homework.

Host 3:27:03

And I said that to him when when he was when I did his did an interview, and I was like, wow, like okay, yeah, you've you've I just think that guy didn't serve in the military and he loves saying Delta Forest until Team Six, and and he has been no, he was knee deep in the Tim Kennedy drama and just Rob O'Neill, like any piece of drama he can dive into in the vet community. That dude almost feels like he built a platform doing it, but I don't know him, so maybe maybe that's not a fair fair look. It's just every time I've seen that dude's podcast or clips, it's having to do with some bullshit drama. He said this about that, or Tim Kennedy said this about it. Who cares now? Let's talk about people that are doing good or things that are gonna help the veteran community. I mean, the dude's not a veteran, so use your damn platform to to help people instead of just stirring up drama. That's my thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 3:27:49

Yeah, I like David Hook. I like him. And I so I what I think is happening too though, he's he's upset at those guys for using his platform to get their stuff, yeah. Fair enough. So they they they used him to to to pass false stuff, and probably where he's at. Like, hey man, that wasn't cool. I mean, I interviewed you, it was a good interview, and but you lied. So, dude, what the hell, right? Fair yeah, I think that's where he's at.

Host 3:28:19

Yeah, and I haven't watched most of his stuff, dude. I've only seen like him talking vet drama. I didn't really, I wasn't really aware of who who he was. I I mean I watched two or three podcasts, Sean Ryan, Joe Rogan, and like now that I have a podcast, I barely even have time to listen. If I'm the only time I like I listen to your Sean Ryan show again, you're read Morin, both great podcasts, but I did it as kind of part of my research to have you on as a guest. I don't have the time to listen to podcasts I used to, so maybe I'm just jealous. You went back to Benghazi, well, actually to Tripoli. Uh, we ended up evacuating the embassy. We're not gonna get to cover that here, but I would highly suggest the audience, if you want to listen to Sean Ryan's episode 45 and 46, great podcast that you did with Sean Ryan, and then you did another one with Reed Morin, where you covered that Tripoli evacuation. You got the CIA's highest medal that they give for that. It's a great story. So if you guys haven't listened to that, please go check out those podcasts. That what Bob did was pretty much evacuate an entire embassy in Tripoli. Nobody, not one injury, and then they were getting ready to overthrow that embassy in Tripoli as well, similar to what they did in Benghazi. Part of a good team, team, yeah, team effort on that one. Yeah, and they and again, man, no air support, no, I mean you guys had to drive for hours like through the night, right? Yeah, I wish we had more time to cover that. Maybe we'll maybe if you come back. That was in what 2014 that you guys did that? July 22. When did you when did you retire from GRS? Or step away, I guess. 2022. What was yeah, what was that fun? I mean, and again, we didn't like you spent you spent time in Israel, uh, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Yeah, we were talking about you going into Israel last night and kind of what you guys were doing in Gaza. That's that's an interesting, interesting conversation as well. That's something that we'll definitely have you back on. But what was your final like what was the final decision point for you where it's like, hey man, I'm gonna hang this up?

SPEAKER_02 3:30:14

At the time, yes, that was the final decision point. So that the success for that one, it was all the right people in and at the right place and time during a just a shit show of a situation in Libya at the time. And so uh JSOC guys are there, agency guys are there, and so half a dozen, I'm gonna say half a dozen people really right place, right time. And and the approvals from our from Chief of Station that was there also, because he wasn't he was on, he was in DC doing something, and he got stuck out of country during that whole thing. So oh man, it was a whole it was a mess. So the as it's deteriorating, flights are stopping. So nobody's getting replaced anymore. Whoever's in country, you're stuck, and you're only getting out if you're rescued or you're driving or swimming. So yeah, right place, right time. We were given the authorization to do a lot of things right, whether that was from a personnel recovery standpoint, from host from a rescue standpoint, from a continued operation standpoint, because that that's what we were planning to do. We'll keep a we'll keep a limited profile here, limited people waited out, and the rest of us are gonna wait in Sigonella or Tunis or wherever. So, but then when we got the the the State Department stuff that they were coming with us, then that just changed everything. So I guess we're all leaving.

Host 3:31:40

So, and it's funny because you end up evacuating Libya, and then you had to go back in there later to you know low pro and do a intelligence preparation of the battlefield and then insert teams in there again.

SPEAKER_02 3:31:53

So it's I was I was honestly done when we evacuated in my my head. I was so I still had what six six, seven years or something like that before I was eligible to retire. I was not concerned about that at all. I had enough. I I figured I'd done enough, and and that was a that was a highlight. So that was that was I was not disgruntled or anything. Nothing surprised me then what we had to do, and we did it, and it worked, right? And that was attributable to a very small group of folks that really uh not just me that my jurist. There was another staffer there with me. My uh he was the the team leader, I was the country guy. He's he's still active, so he he I won't say his name, but yeah, he he helped, he really managed the the that wasn't the same guy that was in Benghazi, was it? No, he managed the team stuff as I'm worried about the bigger stuff. Great guy, still doing God's work somewhere. Uh, he I know he's not he was too young, he's not retired, he's not near retirement. All the army deeds that were there, the agency folks that were there, just super people. And the interaction, so I even got pushback from our guys that we're never gonna leave. It's like, yeah, no, we're leaving, back your shit, right? And then we left, and I was honestly just mentally done. And I was like, I'm resigning, I'm done, I don't want to deal with this anymore. I've done enough. I don't know what am I doing, and all this other stuff. I was done. Go to Georgia, buy a house. I was like, I'm done. I just need to buy a house, get settled in, and do this kind of stuff. And then I was convinced, I go to HR even, and I'm resigning, and and they're looking at my paperwork, they're like, wow, what you have so they give you bonuses, or not a bonus, but you get credit for all your overseas assignment if you go over five years overseas in Warzone, right? There's there's another valuation you get that helps you in your retirement pay. And they're like, You have like two years over your requirement minimum level. I was like, I know, but I don't care. I was just done. Mentally and physically, just done. I'm tired of your stuff, right? And then then the lack of support. Oh, so at the time it's like, okay, that's that's what we gotta deal with. Let's just work with it and we're out of here. But all the all the things I was dealing with at the time, support from my or from the organization, from my departments, GS management, and I was just done. I talked to HR when I got back, just like I said I would. And I'm sitting in there and I said, I want to retire. Or what well, there's a there's a I was gonna put it on put it on hold or something like that, right? I can't remember what there's there's a term for that. And I'm gonna I'm gonna retire at that date. I'm not gonna get paid or anything, but I get to leave, right? It's kind of like terminal leave in the military. I'm gonna go on terminal leave. I was uh finished, and as I was talking to them, they convinced me in a more calmer environment, air conditioned offices and stuff like that. They're like, you should really think about something to do for the next half a dozen years. And to me, that was a long time to have to suck it up. And but I did found a reason to stay, and it wasn't for retirement, but at the same time I'm doing that, they're asking me and a couple other guys to go back to Libya, like we're we're getting ready to go back. And initially I was like, Are you kidding me right now? No. But the the mission profile that they were running, so there was another opportunity for me to kind of get GRS involved in another mission profile that we had not been doing at the time. And to me, it was like this is where we need to be focused on like trying to get to this level of capabilities. So it's like ind dig infill and stuff like that. Yeah, like low profile, even getting there and using the things on the ground, not flying in with all the stuff we're comfortable. We're gonna have to get guns on the ground and you know, vehicles on the ground when we get there, and we're gonna rely on the locals to get our stuff for us and all this other, you know, just from ground up, you're just gonna show up with whatever you you got on you. And we're not, we were not, that's not what we do. We it's it's it's so when they first asked us to participate, we said, Well, what do you when they when they asked, what would it take, what does it look like if we ask for your support? And they're like, Well, that's that's two guys per car, one per VIP. We got eight, we're up to 12, 13 guys, and vehicles and guns and everything. It's like, no, no, well, oh, you misunderstood what I asked you. It's like, can we can we get two guys from you guys to go with us? Because we all know what we're doing. These are all some of them paramilitary guys, and the guys that weren't paramilitary were previous paramilitary, now they're in a leadership position. And we don't need protection per se, we just want your your viewpoints on how we're gonna conduct this operation and on the ground establish a base and all these things. And they said no initially, and I came back to uh headquarters, talking to my deputy chief at the time, and I said this is absolutely something we need to be involved in. Uh, and it's not gonna look like you're you're comfortable with the the profile we need to have, and that was my motivation to stay. I will make this happen, I am gonna go. And I told him, I was like, so yes, it's gonna be dicey, and it's gonna be something that not everybody can do, but I'll hand pick some guys that are comfortable to keep this kind of thing going and to get that into the training, you know, programs for us. And I said, regardless of what happens, and it was like, and regardless of what happens, even if I don't make it back, still need to send guys on this mission and be a part of it. And he was well, he's looking at me like, oh wow, you're you're that motivated to do this kind of thing. I was like, So you tell me if that's what we need to be doing, because I think it's where we need to go. He's like, Hey, Roger that, Ninja. And off I went, me and the two guys that were previous in Libya, uh Benghazi and Triple A teams, helped get get us back in there, back into Libya.

Host 3:38:23

Nice man.

SPEAKER_02 3:38:24

So you went back for a little bit more and that's so that's where I I hear the stories that are happening in Benghazi, though. I'm there I'm with those guys. So all the other stuff that was going on, I'm with them in Misrata and hearing their stories. It's just like fireside chat stuff, you know, sitting on a rooftop and in Misrata.

Host 3:38:47

What what was it like when you finally did decide to hang it up? I mean, dude, you've lived a uh again, man, a pretty a pretty wild life, dude. I mean, 20 years in the military, retired from Delta, you go work in the CIA for 16 years, dude, in the height of the GWA, running into all these different countries and living at that tip of the spear, but also high adrenaline. I mean, you got years in combat zones. What was it like to finally like step away from that?

SPEAKER_02 3:39:17

I was in a good place, actually, mentally. I was ready to make the transition. I was ready to do it. I'm finally convinced that I've done enough for our country.

SPEAKER_03 3:39:32

That's that's kind of what my dad's been saying all these years.

Host 3:39:35

It's like, son, you've done enough. The machine will grind on without you without you, regardless of what you think.

SPEAKER_02 3:39:41

Yep, yeah. And uh I was that's I was good, I was good with that. I was getting in my head about, yeah, okay, this I'm gonna enjoy the rest of my life uh without all this kind of stuff. And so far, so good too. I haven't been enticed, been offered to do a lot of things, back, get back in the mix. People are asking me to do stuff now, and it's like, no, I'm I'm good, I'm fine. I will end my company now, okay. I'll provide training for you guys that are going over, but no, it's not gonna be me.

Host 3:40:07

I got a couple questions, kind of you know, just about faith, family, healing type stuff. I mean, leadership looks cool until you're alone after and you can list the faces of guys and friends you've lost. How do you deal with loss personally, or what has helped you?

SPEAKER_02 3:40:27

So from my life, so losing my mom and early early on and all the guys that I know. So unfortunately, a lot of guys didn't make it out of the GWAT, right? And I got this stack of I'm only wearing one, but I can literally just have a whole arm full of memorial bracelets. And so I didn't handle it so well most of the time. So I actually have this when I go to counseling the for alcohol, so I had to make this timeline for myself. So this is helpful, it was helpful to me to understand, like, so my relationship with alcohol. They're like, I they I built this timeline and they and they have I had to correlate it to good times and bad times, like significant events in my life. And what was I doing with alcohol at the time? And so for some of the folks that were going through this counseling, it was whatever drugs they were addicted to. For me, it was drinking. And clear as day when I charted it, charted this whole thing out. It's like death of a family member, then good times, somebody's born, and then death of another another family member, then joining the army, then not getting what I want. I mean, roller coaster, and the the and then what where was I doing? What was my relationship with alcohol at the time? It's like, oh shit, I was partying up. Yeah, and then my team like like Super Bowl stuff. I mean stuff outside of the military and the agency and stuff. It's like, so when your team wins big games, like eh, hoop, drink it up, right? You celebrate, and then when your team loses and they tank, oh my god, we're drinking again, right? So that really got my my head straight on what I need to be doing with that. But yeah, I didn't I didn't handle that well at times, and then that was a big slap in the face to show me like, hey, like relax, you're done, you're good. Like be comfortable, like what I said I was gonna tell I would tell Pronto and Tig, right? It's like, hey man, you're good. You did enough for your country. You should be proud of yourself and and relax. Just just relax. And that helped me out. So and they crescendoed with the whole COVID time frame and crescendoed back. And that was when I was like, okay, I'm good with what I've done, and I'm comfortable transitioning onto better things. And then I got into the whole training piece, and that was another almost therapeutic thing for me to just transfer all this information. And and so whether it's so it could be guns, but it's also situation awareness, mindset, and all those kind of things. Yeah, it's it's it it's still I just I just love it.

Host 3:43:10

It's almost therapeutic, I guess you can say. Well, and that kind of brings me into another question. I mean, you ran guys so hard that they'd live. Do you think you lost a part of yourself in doing some of that?

SPEAKER_03 3:43:23

That's a great question.

Host 3:43:25

I mean, you've given a lot. I think you don't I think we don't think about that sometimes when we we give and give and give, and that's who we are, but like man, what did you lose to get that, right? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:43:37

Yeah, no, absolutely. And yes, that you asked that question, yes, absolutely. And and mostly it's relationships with my kids and and everything. That that's when I look at it, look back on it now, yeah, that's what I sacrificed. I didn't think about it at the time at any one point that that's what I was doing. But when I start thinking unselfishly the impact of all those things, then yeah, could I have done better? So I'm I'm dedicating myself to this thing over here. I have no other than just doing good at it, I have no vested interest in this, pass or fail. Like you're saying, hey, this this train's gonna keep rolling with you or without you, right? And but I always thought I had some sort of I can impact a positive direction, but I didn't apply that same methodology and that same mindset to family, faith, all that stuff. So yeah, I sacrificed a all that to be good at this, right? And what was that, and I talked earlier about knowing some guys who didn't do things, they're like, oh yeah, I would have done that too if I didn't, if but I was married, had kids. I was like, oops, right? I was like, no, I feel like an ass. So yeah, sacrifices, those are things, unfortunately.

Host 3:44:52

I just think, man, on this podcast, and we talk about a lot because I I I do think there are people that didn't serve that listen to this podcast and they they don't understand what people sacrifice to have the cool stories, man. I mean, yeah, and I know you don't run around wearing all your stories on your sleeve, but I I don't think people realize is the the personal loss. Those of us who serve them and we definitely get it. But I I think you know it's that important reminder that freedom's not really free, somebody has to sacrifice, right? And you're a perfect example of you know, you were the best at what you did, and but it came at a personal cost that you know often isn't talked about.

SPEAKER_02 3:45:27

Yeah, and and I I didn't say that out loud to myself either until just recently, so half a dozen years at the end of that my agency career as I'm getting to the close of that. I was like, that those are all the things I started thinking about. It's like so applying applying my level of effort towards the things that I did for a profession, towards a personal life. Yeah, I did I did not do that.

Host 3:45:52

Did you ever try to explain to your kids later on in life, you know, what it is that you were doing, or yeah, along the way, to the extent that I thought they could understand what was happening.

SPEAKER_02 3:46:04

And and they always have so probably more communication with my daughter along all throughout. So she's probably I guess more aware of the things that I was doing, but even if it wasn't the actual things that I was doing, it's he's doing something for a greater purpose and it'd be good for everybody. So she's always kind of been doing that. Whether she's making excuses to not hate me or something, who knows? But yes, conversations about I gotta do what I gotta do because this is what we do, right? Kind of thing. And she was always able to digest that and and have good outcomes with what you thought I was doing.

Host 3:46:45

After leaving, you know, I I mean, I guess the military, but also I mean, just your recent retirement, right? What's the first thing that you've relearned to enjoy that felt like a small miracle? I mean, you spent years leaving overseas living overseas, living in this high-paced, adrenaline-filled environment. And I can imagine when you finally walk away from that, you know, again, initially you're like, oh, this is cool, it's a vacation. And at some point, you start yearning for that thing that you know is giving you comfort. Whether it's being on the run or, you know, we talked about kind of what that means. But what like what's one of that one of those first things that you feel like helped you maybe relax a little bit or something, you're like, I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_02 3:47:31

So my faith in family. Like, so in my in my situational awareness classes and my my preparation classes, emergency preparation classes, so I get this one portion of the class that I give out, that's things that I say. I was like, so and and I came to the grips with this too, like, like, okay, I've I've I've done done this and that and the other thing. And who's really been there the whole way for for me, right? And that list goes really small, really quick. When you really honest assessment, like they don't have to be there like the longest, but who was there really? Who who like the the the friend? It could be like in a friend situation, right? Who who you who who's that person you're gonna call at three o'clock in the morning and they're not gonna ask questions, be there in a minute, and they're bringing the shovel.

SPEAKER_03 3:48:26

There's not that many of those, even though we like to kid ourselves that there's you don't have to ask them, they're gonna bring so same thing with family, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:48:33

Who who's who are those people? And I had that honest assessment, and that that's why I go back to you know, what have I been more aware of? So I'm actually more so I was in I was in hate mode for a long time because that's how I needed to be, I guess, uh to do what we were doing. Yeah, I was I was uh angry, hateful, just ah, you know, but yeah, we got yes, let's do this, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:48:58

Kill, kill, kill.

SPEAKER_02 3:49:00

But I think that was more of a, you know, I don't know, protective mechanism. I had to be in that that space to do what we were doing, to keep me focused on the the task at hand. But now that I think about it now, I'm really so if you knew me back then, you would see it. But because some of the guys that I I talk to now, they're like, wow, you you're totally different than when we we work together wherever X wears on, and more calm, more, more like faith and family. I understand who those people, what what it's been in my life the whole time, and just didn't pay attention to it, which is the weirdest thing when I it's like, oh, okay. And you you want to think it's people in your family, your best friends, or who you're thinking your best friends are and stuff like that. But when you just honest assessment, and you you the list starts out like, oh yeah, this this yeah, and then wait a minute. But I haven't talked to that person in like 10 years, so well, if I call them right now, what would happen? And okay, well, scratch them off the list, right? And so I get down that list of emergency preparation. Like, who are you gonna call if something bad happens right now? Who's the first one on your list? And then who's the second, third, and fourth? And it you don't have to go too far before you realize that okay, that list is a lot shorter than I thought.

Host 3:50:19

And I used to be angry about that. Like, I've helped a lot of people. Why is my list so short? But then you just realize, man, like especially as we've gotten older, and and especially if we've had friends that worked in either law enforcement or you know, GWAT related, everybody's dealing with their own shit, man. Some of them dealt with it better than others, some of them still haven't dealt with it. And I think when I finally got peace when I went to Mexico and I really came to peace with actually what you're talking about. I I had been angry pretty well too. And and then I was angry, like I've been there for all these people. How come nobody was there when I needed them? But you realize a lot of those people that you thought would be there are still going through their own shit and they haven't dealt with their own shit, so they couldn't help you deal with yours.

SPEAKER_02 3:51:06

Yeah.

Host 3:51:07

And that was hard for me, but I I did find peace when I kind of came to that realization.

SPEAKER_02 3:51:12

Yeah.

Host 3:51:13

And you know, when I came back from Mexico, I did a lot, I deleted a lot of phone numbers out of my phone, man. There's very you know, you you I I did kind of to your point make peace with the whole fact that's exactly what you're talking about, man. Like that you want to believe this list is 10 feet long. That list is probably like three inches, dude. And that's just the reality of life. I tell my kids all the time, you're always gonna be able to count your real friends on one hand. I still I still think that's true. Yeah. Prayer versus therapy. Where do you land and why?

SPEAKER_02 3:51:41

Both, both, and maybe hand in hand, right? So absolutely. So and they always say that too in in combat environments. There's no there's no atheist in in combat. It's like, well, I've worked with some non-believers in bad situations, so that's not true. But for me, that's what helped me either at the time I realized it or later up back when I looked at it, because a lot, a lot of times, and and you you guys will ask me, Well, how did you even know what to do? I was like, I just did what I thought was the best, and it turned out, right? And then I reflect back on that too now. I was like, Well, I don't know what made me decide that. Uh it's not my my my proficiency and my you know, all that stuff. It's like, okay, so I'm getting help from somewhere. So I do believe, you know, so my mother's been since I was 10, 63 now. Yep, we got angels watching over us, right? Totally believe that. So I when I look back at faith and family again, too, those are one of the things like, well, I can only attribute that to one thing, my faith or family. Back to that list again, too. Like, what contributed to that? Well, now that look at it, I there's the people that were there helping. I wasn't ever doing my own thing. There's always other people there, and I understand that, realize it, comfortable with that. It wasn't just me. And I might tell a story, and I'm I'm the only person I'm talking about because I don't want to like put people out there that that need the or they deserve the recognition, but they're not asking for it. And I'm not gonna throw their name out there because some of them are still doing doing work. But it's back to that list again. It's like even when I was at my worst, who's still there now? Who during that time frame, I was I was ugly. But guess what? They're still here. So time, think about it, reflect. That list starts shrinking. And so for now, I'm okay with that. I'm fine with that. I'm comfortable with that. There's a you know, I'm at peace with all this stuff. That okay, I was not good at I was not good to this person, but they they they dealt with me, didn't complain about it, and they're still here. So yeah, that's that's huge for those, and that and now I think more about those people too, because they just are elevated now in my thought process, like who they are as a person. Yeah, it's like, oh my god, you're still here, you know, after all that crap I I was throwing your way. Or or you could say that about faith too, God, right? He's been there the whole time. But at times I was like, whatever. You know, I don't have time, I don't got time for you. Same thing with family. I did the same thing with family. Kids, hey, I got I don't got time for you right now. I gotta do this. So, but guess what? They're still here.

Host 3:54:27

Wow, great, great way to put it. Yeah, as we transition into the the kind of the final topic, I really want to talk about kind of what you're doing now and you know, kind of how you got into it, where you're at, what you're doing, kind of where where that's headed, because I know you haven't stopped.

SPEAKER_02 3:54:41

Training, training, training, yeah.

Host 3:54:43

Yeah, so you've got a you've got a training company, what's it called?

SPEAKER_02 3:54:45

Ninja Bob Solutions. So these are all based off of actual ways to do things, you know, because shooting any gun, and when you're talking firearms, it's you know, there's keep the site still while you're pressing trigger. That's all, you know, it's not hard. But easier said than done in a lot of cases, right? So there's a lot more to it, but don't make it too complicated. So it's explaining these details to people and survival, emergency preparation, situational awareness, and mindset are really huge things. And I apply, I put a little bit of that in all the classes I teach, whatever it is, because it it really applies across the board. Why are you gonna do anything? The more aware of situations you are, the the better prepared you're gonna be. Like, is this possible? I don't need to think the world's gonna end, or shit hits the fan, right? In my emergency preparation classes, it's not like shit hits the fan. Okay, if that's what you're that's what motivates you, but guess what? Natural disasters and all that stuff. People are isolated without stuff, right? And instantly they go into survival mode. They don't have electricity, don't have running water, and they don't have food anymore, and those kind of things. So it happens real time, and we're not paying attention to that stuff.

Host 3:55:57

Yeah, everybody wants to talk about like when the Koreans shoot an EMP at us, the North Koreans, but it's like you're more likely to get hit with a tornado or a blizzard, dude. You know what I mean? A flood. Or a flood, yeah. That's a great, that's a great point. So what what courses, what, what courses are you guys are you teaching?

SPEAKER_02 3:56:13

So pretty much everything's on the plate, and I and I've heard you know guys get you know harassed for like, hey man, just focus on one thing or two things, and you know, you're not a master at everything, and but I feel value in the stuff that I have in a lot of aspects. So between my military life, personal life, and then my uh agency life. And it it's interesting, it's interesting to me to hear stories of people and w w why they come to me for training. And it's not because they're in Iraq or Afghanistan, and that's that's the the excuse give people give them. It's like, well, I'm never gonna be in Iraq. Why do I need to know that? Right? And we're not at war in Afghanistan anymore, so why why is that important to me, right? And it and they don't see the value and the the actual messages in the stories, and and a lot of people do though, and that's why they come to me and they tell me their story and the reason they're here could be self-defense if it's firearms training or it's a flood, they knew somebody in a hurricane tornado or something that bad happened, natural disaster, and it wasn't shit hits the fan thing, but it was before they knew it, they should have seen it coming.

Host 3:57:19

They can you should hit the fan for them. You hit me.

SPEAKER_02 3:57:21

You can see you know, weather is forecasted and you have apps on your phone. You don't have no excuse for not knowing what's happening with the weather these days. I mean, you don't have to rely on a weather band, five o'clock news or anything, it's right there in your hands.

Host 3:57:33

Yeah, one thing I really liked about you when we were talking about it is you you really have kind of cracked that thing where you're starting to to train, you know, civilians, man, that have a mind for it, right? I think like the entire tier one industry is geared towards military and law enforcement and they've got the massive training budgets. But what about the Joe Bob, the civilian man that just wants to take care of his family and be prepared for man, the world's spiraling. If you watch the news for longer than two days, dude, it'll make you stress out.

SPEAKER_02 3:58:00

So during so other things that people get into, yes, absolutely. I saw that during the BLM riots in Northern Virginia and DC, right? There was a limousine limousine service who actually had was called to pick up some protesters and bring them into DC. And they ended up running and getting guns pushed in their face because they don't know who's in their car, they're just like Uber or whatever it was. It was a it was a limousine service. So it was a uh a sedan that was rolling up to their their protest, and that's not reported a lot either. That they actually had guns and people protecting their protesters, other protesters that had guns that are keeping everybody out. So yeah, he got a gun shoved in his face, and he's like, Oh, oh, I got your guys in my back seat here. They will I'm just bringing them to you friendly. And so that guy got in touch with me and said, Hey, can you I need to know what what I can do to protect myself. So it wasn't just a gun, it was what he's gonna do with his car and everything else and and all these other things. So, oh man, it's just it's just fascinating to me how people are applying some of these things.

Host 3:59:08

Do you already have a bunch of POIs written, or do you just and and it's based off of, you know there's yeah, and some people have asked me, hey, can you make me a commando in two days?

SPEAKER_02 3:59:22

I was like, no. It's gonna take a little bit more than that.

Host 3:59:25

It took me 20 years.

SPEAKER_02 3:59:27

So and it so to your point too, though, it's like, okay, I can shoot this well because I've been doing it for like 40 years. So practice, practice, practice. And and you, you know, these are standards that you know you can achieve. It's gonna take a while. So be patient. But it's gonna take you to to keep going back and and re-re go into the firearms training, go to other trainers too, because there are guys that are out there who are, you know, just you know, they still got the knife hand and uh drills, do you do this this way? It's like I'm not that way at all. It's like this is how I stand, this is how I present pistols and rifles, and this is how I do CQB, and I don't get it, you like it or so I've had trolls already, you know, hit me up and stuff like that. I was like, yeah, whatever. I don't feel obligated to respond to those kind of things. And that because there's enough people who are seeing it, it's like somehow that just looks smooth. Like you look like you have you're not wasting any effort to do what you're doing. I was like, well, that's hopefully what you get to at one point. It's just so easy, it just flows. Then surveillance, counter-surveillance for people who are doing it's it's surveillance and counter surveillance techniques that I I teach people in their situational awareness thing because it's the same kind of mindset, same kind of things you gotta look for. So it's are they gonna be surveilled? Are they do they need to do counter-surveillance stuff? No, but if you practice, if you up, if you mentally do these things, it'll help you be situationally aware of your environments and stay away from trouble. So avoid, avoid, avoid. How do you do that? Pay attention to what's going on, get your face out of your phones. Uh, there's there's no call, there's no phone call, no text important enough to risk your life over. And that's what you're doing when you do that, walking in a gas station, parking lots, and major department stores.

Host 4:01:18

Walking around with your earphones in, listening to music, like you're missing one of your main senses, dude.

SPEAKER_02 4:01:23

Yeah, and I tell everybody, hey, they they I know they sell them in pairs, but you can just wear one, it's fine. Right? Leave your other ear available. How how can people find you? Ninja Bob Solutions is the website. I'm on all social media platforms now. Instagram just started a TikTok. I gotta start putting some content on these things now. Um, so I was reluctant to do all this stuff because I'm not a TikToker. Oh god.

Host 4:01:47

Uh my kids had to show me how to use TikTok. I still don't totally get it.

SPEAKER_02 4:01:50

Facebook, all just either look up Ninja Bob or Ninja Bob Solutions, and you'll find that. Go to the website, I have all the links to all this.

Host 4:01:56

We'll have all the all the links to your stuff will be in the description of this video. So if you're looking for Bob's social media or or his website, you can find it in the description of this video. If you're listening, if you're watching this on YouTube, it'll be in the description. If not, if you're listening to this, it'll be in the description.

SPEAKER_02 4:02:11

So leadership platforms too. That's another thing that I'm doing. Conferences on you know that kind of stuff. This is what I dealt with, this is how I apply it in regular life. You don't have to be in the military, you don't have to be a CIA to apply these leadership principles. And this is what I did. Your adversity is different than mine, but if you do this, you're you'll be fine. That's awesome, man.

Host 4:02:34

Well, man, we just did a marathon. That was a a marathon podcast interview. But man, there was so much good information that's not very often you just get to sit down with somebody like you. You're kind of like a national treasure, in my opinion. I've talked to a lot of people. I love all my podcast guests, but man, just to be able to I I remember from the very first time that we started talking, and then when we did your podcast prep, I think when we actually sat down to your prep, I'd only scheduled like an hour. I think we talked for like three and a half hours. I just enjoyed talking to you. You're you you know, you've got a good outlook on life, and you can still laugh, you know, in spite of all you've been through and all you've seen. And I really appreciate that about you. I know I'm gonna try to take some training for you down the road because I think it's good to stay frosty, but I uh I just wanted to thank you for for trusting us to be able to put your story out. I know you've especially after Sean Ryan, man, you're kind of famous now. So thanks for meeting with the JV team, dude. And coming on our podcast. But no, man, I've I've thoroughly enjoyed our interactions. I I hope this isn't the last time that we get down and talk. There was a lot of things I didn't even get to cover on this interview. I mean, I wrote a pretty lengthy I did a ton of research, but you know, I could have talked to you for an entire another day or a podcast, so maybe we'll schedule up a follow-up.

SPEAKER_02 4:03:44

No, appreciate the invite. Yeah. Saw some of your work and were fans of some of the actors you had on. I was like, yeah, that's cool. I'll do that.

SPEAKER_03 4:03:53

Yeah.

Host 4:03:53

I know you're laughing when I get a little bit. I sent the initial picture like of the packet that I had. I made a packet on you, and you're like, dude, what do you what do you do? What did you do for a living? It looks like a target package. I'm like, you're not totally wrong. So awesome, man. Well, again, dude, we'll we'll put all your your links in the bio. So thanks for coming on. For everybody out there listening, I we just can't thank you enough for the support. This is just another great interview. And if it wasn't for all you folks listening or watching, and we we wouldn't have a podcast. So I I don't read all the comments on the short videos, but on the actual YouTube videos, we we read all those comments. If you leave a comment on iTunes or Spotify, we read those as well. You can always reach out to us by email. Our emails in the description below. And if you want to support the podcast, we got a website, we sell merch, we got shirts, hats, all that stuff. That money allows us to bring guests out and pay for their expenses. So again, man, thanks for the support. And and everybody continue to stay tuned. We're looking at starting a Patreon soon and maybe putting some ad-free stuff and some behind-the-scenes stuff on Patreon. So stay tuned from that. My editor and I just filmed a podcast a couple days ago on how we met, which is an extremely interesting story. That'll that'll be on Patreon only. So stay tuned. Anyway, you guys stay safe out there. And if you can't be safe, be violent out here.