Host 1:09

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Vanguard Wall. Uh today with us we have Shaunee Jackson. We've been working on this interview. Man, I think we got linked up last uh last February.

Chane Jackson 1:21

Yeah, I think it was February. That's February.

Host 1:23

And um we were doing a story uh about Gregory Trent, and man, we we tried like heck, man. We just could not get our schedules aligned. You had a you had a bunch of irons in the fire, and we were kind of newer in the in the game, and uh yeah, but you're one of you're one of the few guests that I've hunted down meticulously and like please, please come on and talk to us, man.

Chane Jackson 1:44

You didn't hunt me down.

Host 1:46

I you know, but uh look, man, I know you're an ex you're an ex you're an entrepreneur, uh, you got a lot of stuff going on, and I know time is very important, and I really appreciate you taking the time to come in the studio and and tell your story. It's an amazing story, and it's one that I'm really excited to talk about.

Chane Jackson 2:01

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Host 2:02

So, um, as we get started, before uh I give you the introduction, I just wanted to ask you a question. Shaunae, before we dive into your story, I I want people to understand who you are. You're a retired uh special forces officer, you've got multiple combat deployments, you've been through some of the most intense training the military offers, and now you're running a men's health clinic and you opened a D1 training facility last year, which is pretty cool. Right. Uh when you look back at everything, how do you in your how do you introduce yourself? Who who is Shaunee Jackson?

Chane Jackson 2:29

Uh to be honest, uh I introduced myself as uh someone who's trying to help the community. Um I I really don't, you know, as a person, you know, I've gotten to where I am because of the people around me, the people who have supported me, the folks who have pushed me. Um and I will say, and and my teammates that run alongside me throughout everything. So who I am is because of everyone else. Um, you know, I think um I do like a good challenge, I do like to strive for excellence, but all those things I've learned from the folks around me. So I haven't done it because I was born that way. I did it because, you know, even my mom herself, like she's lifted me up and sister, why everything. Everything is is gotten me to where I am today. Um so uh and I thank my teammates and everyone and my colleagues and friends, um, because I always talk to folks and they say, Hey, how come you got so many friends? These these friends have helped me get to where I am. Um so uh that China is that's who China is. Um, but who I am as a whole, as a person, is is I want to see others do better. I want to make sure that others achieve excellence. I want to make sure that people around me get to where they need to be and achieve their goals. So um you know, so I I guess like that's that's really who I am as a person. Um, you know, I I really embody that selfless service that they teach you when you when you start off in in the military, they talk about it. Um, but I think, you know, when you stay in the military for so long, you really start to understand what and you wrap your head around that and what it means. And so um, I'm a selfless servant to the people that in my community and the people of this nation for sure.

Host 4:07

I have had the a fortunate experience to befriend to befriend uh some of the folks that you led. And I've never heard a group of people talk about a leader uh other than maybe some of Dave's dudes, uh, with just such reverence of Dave's a good leader, too. Yeah, Dave's a great leader. Uh and you know, it it it was you you always hear, you know, good and bad about leadership, right? Like you're always gonna find somebody like, oh that, but man, I I kind of poked around, really, uh, because I only get to interview so many people a year and and man, this is the feedback. I've never heard, I mean, it wasn't just like, hey, Chanae's a good dude. It was, yo, I'd go to hell for that dude. He could call me right now and I'd drop what I was doing and drive across country. And that that really speaks volumes to who you are. So uh thanks for introducing yourself. However, I'm gonna introduce you now as well. Ah, okay. You're you're you're quiet, but you're the quiet, humble professional. Major hater, told you that's not a B. That's an H. Your paper wasn't good enough for an F. He said it out loud at West Point to a kid who'd barely survived middle school. Sean A. Jackson went to the professor's office every single day for a semester. Then he went to Afghanistan and became the guy everyone called when the shooting started. The guy who never broke contact, never fell back, not once. Lieutenant Colonel Sean A. Jackson, United States Army, retired. West Point, 14th in his class of 975. Except he barely survived middle school, never made honor roll once at his music magnet school, while his sister played Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on a violin, first try, never having touched the instrument before. The Army gave him three bronze stars, two valorous unit awards, combat patches from the 173rd Airborne, 75th Ranger Regiment, and Special Forces. Five combat deployments, over 100 direct action missions, fluent in Arabic, learned it so well he once used it to expose a Taliban recruiter who was trying to convince Afghan soldiers to shoot Americans in the back. Ranger School recycled him in mountain phase. He kept pushing, finished it. Then came the moment the infantry branch tried to stop. They wanted him for company command, had him slotted, told him special forces was off limits. What'd Shawnee do? He picked up the phone, called a colonel he'd never met, got a two-star general to overrule the entire infantry branch. They told him if you fail selection, your ass is calling at JRTC. He didn't fail. During special forces assessment and selection, when he was in the team's when the team's contraption broke down before a hill, he carried a 500-pound barrel up the hill by himself. Later, when another candidate quit, he stood on the man's chest and screamed at him until he got back up. The cadre said, You're one of us. And then when he got the third special forces group, he didn't ask for an easy mission. He walked into the group commander's office and demanded the hardest commando mission assignment in Afghanistan. My team is the best team you've got, he told him. They gave him the mission, and he and his team proved it. After hundreds of intense firefights, his teams always push forward, never once had to fall back. Years later, Shaune would return to West Point, not just as an instructor teaching applied mathematics and data analytics. He also coached the judo team. Shaunay is a black belt who competed at the national level. But here's where it gets interesting. After years of combat, after leading teams through the deadliest missions in Afghanistan and Iraq, after advising senior military leaders and commanding elite units, Shauna Jackson taught himself to code. He became the data science director for the entire U.S. Special Operations Command, 90,000 personnel, 11 commands worldwide. Then he did it again for the most classified counterterrorism task force in the American military. He oversight the oversaw the building of AI systems, managed the 7 million in technology portfolios, and delivered solutions that cut decision-making time by 60%. And today he's building empires, a D1 training for training franchise in Austin, a men's health clinic in Tampa. This is a man who was told he wouldn't make it past eighth grade, who had teachers literally invent a new failing grade in H because F wouldn't do the paper justice. This is a man who leads with his team, not his ego, who never lost a soldier under his command and never lost a battle either, because he learned from a battalion commander who took the heat for a Medevac under fire rather than throw a brand new lieutenant under the bus. Shauna Jackson didn't just break barriers. He kicked the tour down, pulled everyone else through, and then taught them how to build their own doors. This is his story.

Chane Jackson 8:19

You make that sound really good. I'm like, I'm impressed. Who's this guy talking about?

Host 8:24

There's a reason why I asked you to tell a little bit about yourself because I've gotten to know you in the last year. And man, you are the quintessential quiet professional, but a leader and a man's man. And so I kind of did that on purpose because I think sometimes it's good the audience to hear, you know, how you're not going to say those things. That's why I love these introductions.

Chane Jackson 8:41

I'm surprised you actually knew all that stuff.

Host 8:42

I didn't tell you all that stuff. You must have been doing some digging. I did. That's my that's my job. Um, before we dive into the back half of your story, let's let's go at the very beginning. Uh let's go, let's go back to, you know, if you could tell us a little bit about you know where you were born and what your neighborhood was like and just try to paint our audience uh a picture of what life looked like for you as a kid.

Chane Jackson 9:03

Uh, you know, so I grew up initially, we lived in Elmleaf Avenue, uh, Maryland, Prince George's County, Maryland. Um, you know, uh, my parents were together in the beginning. Um, obviously, there was a lot of tension there. They wound up getting separated and divorced uh when I was about nine years old. Um, then my mom moved out and and lived on her own. We lived in an apartment, you know, by herself, you know, by herself, my sister and myself. Um, and uh, you know, and I would say it was it was a struggle for her. Uh, obviously. Um, she was working her job. Uh, my dad, you know, at that moment in time, he kind of still was in my life, but then he kind of left. Um, I'm not sure exactly what mentally was going on with him, but he just kind of decided to kind of depart in terms of getting himself together. Um, but he left for about nine years or so. Um, but you know, living in that area, living in that community, um, it was it was a little bit tougher for her. Um, obviously being in an apartment, um, uh moving from the house, um, you know, putting food on the table, uh, making sure she made ends meet, making sure she could pay the rent, uh, was a fight every day for her. So I knew that she worked at night. So she would go to work all night, uh, come back during the day, um, and then try to get some rest, make sure we got off to school. And of course, if I ever did anything wrong or messed up in school, she had to come to school, she was pissed. So there was those occasions where I did do stuff like that, right? I would make some mistakes, but um, for the most part, um, she she never showed uh any sign of weakness. She was very resilient. Um, and and that was a great example for me to see. Um, and then later on in my life, in high school, my dad came back into my life and reintroduced himself. Um, and we can talk about that later. But yeah, so but yeah, but we we I grew up in, I had a ton of friends and and and like I went to an um, you already talked about it. I went to an arts, music, and art school, which I was not talented and gifted in. Um the the thing that kept me off the honor roll was my handwriting and art. I couldn't draw and I couldn't write. So these are these are, you know, but you know, uh it was a struggle. Um, and and I enjoyed it, though. I enjoyed like the the people I was surrounded with, um, some of the talented folks that, you know, the guys like Nathan Yokel. Um, he's a good friend of mine. Uh he's now a doctor. Um, but he was just a monster on the saxophone. He wound up actually going to the science technology school with me as well later. But uh it's kind of funny having friends like that. Lawrence Butler played the trumpet, um, and surrounded by those guys, he's just like, wow, I don't know how you guys are so gifted. I was just trying to survive.

Host 11:38

But and it'll come back in your story, and I I think, you know, there's just there's so much to unpack. You know, your your mom grew up in the projects, your your dad had been a victim kind of of the foster system, separated from his nine siblings when he was like nine years old. That's right. Uh, and he was the oldest of ten kids and and didn't know where his brothers and sisters were. How how did their backgrounds maybe shape the way that they raised you?

Chane Jackson 11:58

You know, I will tell you, um, you know, even though my mom grew up in the projects, um, her mom was a nurse. Um, her dad was a dishwasher. Um, you know, and he really he was a hustler. Like, you know, how you want to call it, like he would get out there and hustle, whatever he could hustle, right? Yeah. Um, just to try to make ends meet. Um, but she she saw in her own household what it would it what she could do, what she what she could become, right? And just because her mom and her dad really pushed her. Um, and she was surrounded by friends herself and her community that I eventually called uncle and aunt, even though they weren't blood related, you know, they were my uncles and aunts, regardless. My dad, on the other hand, his life was a bit different, right? Um, he he he was he had to struggle all the way through until he was about 16 years old, is when a gentleman named Richard, uh, you know, foster me, he went to a foster home by a guy named Richard, and he took care of him and taught him like the ways. And um, and and and and I know that also for my dad shaped his life and how it was for him, you know. I think he had a bit of a fear in going into parenthood because of that. Now I can't wrap myself around his head because I didn't really, I wasn't really as close to him as I wanted to be. Um, and that's my fault. You know, I I had opportunities to kind of have these conversations. I didn't. Um, and I think it's because I was angry because he had left for so long, and I shouldn't have been so angry, right? I should have, I should have worked through it. Um worked out.

Host 13:28

You don't have that when you're a nine-year-old kid. No, no, you don't. I mean, I'm talking about later on in life. Yeah, but still, you know, I I, you know, not to make this about me, but I had a similar story and a similar issue and and missed that opportunity. And by the time I could find my real father, he he he was he had passed away. But, you know, again, I I I carry that same anger and I think it's hard to process. I think it's not until you have kids and then your kids get older and life catches up, you have the the benefit of uh, you know, going back. And so I think it's important that you know we talk about it too, because there's a lot of people that struggle, you know, in their adult years with things that have happened. And you know, it's it's never too late to try to go back and fix things if you have the opportunity. So I think it's you know, it's it's cool to hear you reflect on that, uh, even though I'm sure there was a lot of years that you went through it. Um unfortunately you can't change the path.

Chane Jackson 14:14

I thought it was really interesting when you and I were but the thing about it though, the things that he taught me were the things that I noticed that he didn't do well too, right? So he he wasn't good with the the finances in the family, and some of the things that he had kind of messed up as I was growing up were things that I focused on later on. Because he taught you that, or no, because because uh because of the absence of it. Um not to say that he's a bad man, I'm just saying like there's things that he just wasn't good with that I kind of picked up and said, Hey, I don't want that for my family. You know, I want to be better or I want to do this better. Um, so even though he wasn't there, or but that's one of the things like I want to be there for my children. I want to make sure I'm there for my family. I want to make sure that that I'm providing what they need and I'm managing the resources and finances. Well, so these are things that I did notice that later on in life um that I picked up. But of course, that sense of abandonment is something that you you kind of keep with you too as well. It's something I had to work through psychologically later on.

Host 15:14

And I know like your kids are super important to you. I don't think we've ever had a conversation where you haven't talked about your daughters. Oh, yeah, yeah. Not once. Um, and and I think it it kind of speaks, you know, you you again, man, whatever happened with you and your dad's fine. But as long as I mean you've made a obviously made a conscious decision to be different, and I think that breaks like generational cycles. And it's, you know, now you're setting your daughters up for success for their families and their so it's right, it's really cool because there's a lot of people I think that fall back. And you know, I've and this is a rabbit hole, I'll try not to dive into, but you and I've talked about, you know, uh different upbringings and and how people, you know, use a bad circumstance to define them, and you did the opposite, man. And you know, it sounds like your mom was an amazing human being and and just really, you know, tried to set you up for success in every way she can, instead of, you know, hey, life sucks, my husband left, you know, instead of just giving in, which a lot of people do. And that's another thing that I just love about your story. One of the things that was super interesting that we were talking about um when we did your podcast prep was, you know, after your dad passed away, um, there was like you knew your dad had gone to Vietnam, but there was this like incredible story where your dad let everybody think he'd gone A-WOL. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Chane Jackson 16:23

Yeah, so that's interesting. So I I don't know if it's just the fact that he didn't want to talk about it, or if it was the fact that he wanted people to believe the the reverse, right? Um, but you know, I had always thought he went A-WOL, got caught, they put him in jail. Once the war ended, they let him go. I don't I wasn't sure, right? He never talked to me about any of it. Um so, but that's what everyone else kind of believed too. I mean, that's kind of like what I thought was kind of the story, and some folks actually knew that he went over. Um, but no one really talked about Vietnam or what experience. I know that uh he he was about to get hit up for the draft. He signed up for the Air Force, and then he went AWOL. Um what was funny, uh, not funny, but I guess kind of different, was when I went to go pick up his DD 214, and I was thinking I was just gonna pick it up just to have it, you know, just to make sure I got it somewhere and have a record of it. Um then I was gonna have to just bury him like how you normally bury someone. Um then I found out he actually served with honors and he actually had medals and awards from going over to Vietnam. And I was like, oh, so he actually did his time. Like he did his time. And and and and and it makes sense to me now why uh to him me going to the military was kind of like, you know, he didn't want me to do it. I mean, I'm not sure if he wanted me to do it, but he was proud, but he was also afraid. Um and it makes sense because we we later reconnected when I in my senior high school, um, and he took me to uh VMI um because I was getting recruited for cross country, but it just cost too much money, right? And so, so uh, so he he kind of talked about some of that on the ride down, uh, but I thought he just talked about it from the standpoint of like just you know, war's bad, Vietnam was bad. Um, there was no war yet at that point in time. It was 1998 or so. Um, so it was there's no no war against terror, none of that stuff was going on. But still, in his mind, you could tell there was that that anxiety from having been over in Vietnam. I didn't know that at the time, right? But all hindsight, like that all makes sense. Hindsight now, it all makes sense now, yeah. Right. And so so me going into infantry later probably freaked him out a bit. Um, it probably freaked him out a lot a bit. Uh so I I didn't realize that. Um, and then when I picked up his DDC14, and then all kind of connected, like, oh, he he went and he saw and he saw some stuff. And I don't know what he saw, right? I don't know what exactly he saw, but I was proud to have buried him with honors. Um, they had the honor guard there. Um, I was in tears. Um, it actually hit me pretty hard because I was like, man, we could have shared a lot. Um, we could have talked about our experiences. I could have told him what happened when I went to Afghanistan the first time. Um, but I never had a chance to talk to him about it. Um, we kind of kind of, you know, parted ways a little bit um in terms of like, you know, I was trying to take care of my family and all these other things. And um, and he kind of went radio silent on me for a while. And then next thing you know, we discovered his body uh 14 days he had been dead in his in his house uh from congestive heart failure. So it was pretty sad. Um and I and I I and I have a lot in my heart where I was like, man, I I would like to ask him so many questions. Um share with him kind of what I saw and kind of how I feel, and uh maybe we have a lot to talk about. And so to this day, I still pray to him. I I still make sure, like, hey, even though all the things he did, me, he made some bad decisions sometimes, didn't know exactly some other times. I I still think to myself, like, you know, in his heart of hearts, like he did what he had to do, he did his duty, and that might have messed him up a bit.

Host 19:50

Well, and there was and and man, they didn't have the things back then that we have now. There wasn't all these different things that are available, uh, not only to veterans, but I don't, you know, that wasn't a big thing. People weren't going to counseling back then, especially, you know, there's a you know, the 60s and 70s where it was a it was a suck it up time of you know life, you know what I mean? It's like it was you know, cry to yourself, nobody wants to hear that. And and I, you know, I still every time I see a Vietnam vet, I still tell them, welcome home, you know, because we had the benefit of the warm welcomes and everybody support it, you know. The more I've talked to Vietnam vets, it's man, those that are that are vocal. It was it was a it was a bad time. Even guys that went over there and did some of the most heroic things came home and spit on, and that's right, you know, so it probably makes sense as to why he didn't want to talk about his service because you know, I I know there was guys that weren't able to get jobs because they went in Vietnam and him not talking about his service and his combat time, you know, now as somebody who has kids, has that shaped, you know, kind of how you talk about your time in service with your own kids?

Chane Jackson 20:45

I do, you know, I talked to my daughters about it. Um, uh my oldest, especially, she knows because she saw me in uniform the most out of all of them. Uh so she's seen me kind of run around the uniform. Um, she's in actual Naval JRTC now. That's awesome. And and I had her sit down, watch Band of Brothers before she joined, just to know, hey, this is what you're so you can kind of see what it's about. And and you know what? She she sucked that thing up and she's like, okay, daddy, I got it. I know what I know what what what it looks like. Um, and uh uh and I share some stories. I talked to them about some things or some of the hardships. Nothing too graphic, of course, but I mean I talked to him about like what it means to serve, what it means to be in the military. Um, and so she's obviously taking on that, and she's in JRTC now, naval JRTC, and doing wonderful, and I'm proud of her. Um, you know, being in the Navy is one thing, but we won't hold that against her.

Host 21:36

Go army, beat navy. Yeah, to go army. Uh you went to a music arts magnet school, which is something I didn't expect when we first started talking. Yeah, that's great. Uh, but but you didn't pick it, your sister did. Uh, how did how did that go over with you? And what was that?

Chane Jackson 21:50

No, no, I don't think it was my sister, it was my mom. So my sister could sing, and she she saw a gift in my sister, and I think, you know, she my sister still has that gift. Don't get me wrong, she's amazing. Um, she could sing and all the things. Um, and I think you you talked about a little bit in the story, like uh the tryout for the Magnus School, Thomas G. Poolin. It was a great school. Um, and it's for the talented and gifted, right? Um, a lot of the kids in that school and that program that I saw were absolutely amazing. Um, some of the the top talent I've ever seen, right? All the way from dance to art to uh music to everything, right? Um, so you know, it was kind of funny how that was kind of introduced was, you know, my mom was like, hey, let me let's go send her up here, let's go set her up for success here. Um and she went to that tryout, and uh I remember her plucking the strings uh on that violin and then pulling out and just playing twiggle twelve little sorrow like it was nothing. Um I was like, man, she's good. And it and and you know, you know, call me crazy. So the next year I I go and my mom's like, hey, let's let's try to get you into this school too. And I was like, oh great. Um maybe I'm also gifted. I hadn't shown any signs of this. And I plugged at this thing too. And I tried to play Twinkle to a little star and it did not come out how I wanted. It was like And they're like, oh, maybe he'll pick it up over time. And I never really did.

Host 23:13

I had a middle school daughter that, you know, they do this thing in eighth grade where they all get an instrument and she got the violin and bro, she would play that thing in her room, and it was horrible, man.

Chane Jackson 23:22

Well, my oldest, you know, wound up playing the viola, and now she plays the saxphone, the baritone, and the alto. And so I wound up going to the saxphone later, but my dullest plays and she's much better than I am. And she's got the gift. Like she's got the art, she can draw all the things. So it's kind of funny. It's like, you know, maybe it skipped a generation.

Host 23:39

I know you struggled a little bit in that school. Um, but what you know, what do you think your mom was trying to do by keeping you in that school even though you were struggling?

Chane Jackson 23:46

I mean, she's just trying to get us in a in a good program. I mean, at the end of the day, she's just trying to find a good program for both her children. Um, and so I alter her credit. Um, you know, if I'm a parent, I'm looking for the best schools in the area, right? And that was one of the top-rated schools in that area. Um, and you know what? All for it. So she made sure she positioned herself, made sure we got into a good program, got into that school. Um, you know, some of the elementary schools and stuff, middle schools and area weren't so good. Um, uh kids were going into gangs or doing other stuff. And so she's truly trying to get us into the right spot. Um, and so that program, of course, because it's a magnet school, was uh a bit different than most normal schools. And so there was a focus and stuff on music and arts, but at the same time, it was good quality education with the math, the science, the English, and the writing, all that stuff. So at the end of the day, yeah, I struggled, but it was great because I I got a a good foundation initially, right? Um, which was better than what could have happened, the alternative, you know, because sure other than that, she'd not been set up for not success, right? So I think my mom did a really great job finding that school.

Host 24:55

Clearly, look at your resume. Uh when you were nine or ten, I think your mom put you on something called the black male achievement program. What was that?

Chane Jackson 25:03

Oh, that's a you know what yeah, yeah, you remember that. So the black male achievement program, uh, so I was nine or ten. It was a school, it was a program uh in Prince George's County that was trying to get uh minority males into the science and technology programs. We had two schools in science and technology, Eleanor Roosevelt High School and Owen High School. Oxenhill, excuse me, Oxenhill High School. Um, so those two schools did science and technology, but there wasn't there weren't a lot of minorities in those programs for some reason. Um, and I know the reason was because we had this intrigues exam to get in, and you had to pass a certain, you know, score in order to get into that school. Um so they were like, hey, let's let's start exposing at a younger age these kids who are in fourth, fifth grade. Let's bring them up, bust them up to the school, introduce them to engineers, introduce them to scientists, and show them what it's like to be on the science and tech side. This is a whole new world for me. Uh, I had not it, I didn't even know that was a a thing. I remember going into the program and meeting uh engineer from NASA, and I remember him saying, like, oh yeah, I work at I'm an engineer. And I was like, You that's a job? You work on a train? Yeah, that's what I thought working on a train. I was like, I don't know what you do. And he's like, Oh no, I'm I do engineering. I had design this, that, and next thing. And it was, I was flabbergasted. I mean, I didn't care what the color of his skin was or who he was. I just, I didn't even know it was a job that you could do, you could make a living, uh, you could be a scientist and actually make a living doing it. I thought it was just something we just do projects in school, you know, and and and and and see fun things and fun experiments. Um, so in that program, they wound up calling it the minority achievement program. I don't know if it still exists today. Um, and so I met a lot of a lot of unique individuals from that program. Um, and a lot of these guys, some of them came from the school I was in, like Lawrence Butler, I was telling you about. But I met a gentleman named Andre Smith, who we're still good friends today. He works at NASA now, right? Um, you know, Lawrence Butler wound up going and working at Google. Um, and you know, and uh Nick Cowwell, a great friend too. Um, he wound up going over and he's now the chief product officer of Peloton, but before he sold a company, uh made multi-millions, you know, sold it to Google. I mean, all kinds of folks that I got a chance to meet in that program. And then we eventually wound up going to that school and we wound up passing that exam. And that was a that was a tough exam. I only passed it by two points.

Host 27:29

Yeah, how did you feel when you passed the exam and you got on the program? And now these all these different I remember when we were doing the prep, you you know, you said when you were younger you thought the only way to be successful was, you know, you had to play professional sports and and all that. And now you you have this new this new opening in life. Did that really kind of change the way that you saw opportunities?

Chane Jackson 27:49

So, so you know, people talk about, you know, so here's the thing um people talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I think this is kind of where it hits home. This is diversity and equity and inclusion to me is presenting the opportunity to uh to everyone. Uh that socioeconomic fabric of folks who are at the bottom who may not even know or not aware. Like what I saw on TV was you had to sing, you had to dance, or you had to go play some sport and be a badass, right? And that's kind of how I viewed the world as success. I did not know about this, this new or this, these opportunities where you could actually learn this technology, learn engineering, learn math, and actually pursue a career in it and still be successful. Even though, you know, I'm sure it was there, but that's not something I I knew about or I was aware of. I mean, you know, when you're in school and you're learning about the different professions, you know, hey, I took a little test when I was in elementary school, like, oh, you're gonna, you like to be outside, you're gonna be a painter, right? And I was like, okay, painter, that's what I'm gonna do. Or a plumber, right? Which is which are all still great professions. And I'm not knocking those. Sure. But I just didn't know about this whole world of engineering, science, math, you know, all this stuff where I was like, oh, wow, I could also do that and pursue that as a career as well. Which you can, right? And so what's funny is uh, you know, uh a lot of folks like to downplay it, but I think that's really what diversity, equity, inclusion that's what it means. It means like it's giving that exposure and letting getting folks to know and see that there's a world outside the world that they know.

Host 29:19

Yeah, and it was very interesting. I remember you and I talking about it on a parking lot, actually. A lot of people hear those words and they think it means lowering standards or giving people advantages they haven't earned. But I mean, what you told me was something way more powerful. Uh, and I remember you telling me, I am a product of diversity and inclusion. Can you kind of unpack that?

Chane Jackson 29:37

Yeah, no, I I say that because uh, you know, it kind of almost brings a tear to my eye when I think about it. If it weren't for the folks that reached out to say, hey, young man, you can do this, you know, all I knew was with my my cousin, yeah. I have a cousin that I hung out with. He was always getting in trouble, running around, hanging out with the wrong folks. Or, or you were an athlete, like, or you know, you gotta be the fastest guy on the track, right? Um, but this diversity equity inclusion program showed me a door. I mean, I had to do the work, right? No one said, hey, China, you can't, you're gonna, we're just gonna hand you the test. You're gonna be right in. No, it I had to do the work. I had to pass the test, right? Now I told you I only passed about two points, but I passed it, right? I still took the same exam that everyone else took. And I still pass it with the same standard everyone else had. But now I get exposed to now this new program of science technology. Again, same thing, you know, going to the academy and now fast forward a little bit, you know, getting that exposure and getting that opportunity to step in that door. Um, now, again, with the academy, and that's a whole nother story. I I didn't know uh about the academy life either. I don't know, I didn't even know that existed. But so that that was a whole nother thing where it's like, oh wow, that that's a thing. Um, so so um I am a product of it because I tell folks, like, yes, I I I I was presented the opportunity. Now to reach the standard was on me. To pass the standard, it was on me. It was not on anyone else. Uh and it was and but I I also leverage my people around me, my team, the folks that I was studying with. If I didn't know something, I helped me get to where I need to be. And so uh I think that diversity, equity, inclusion programs or programs like that help folks who do have those skills and those assets, no matter what their color is, to help bring everyone else around them, like, hey, hey guy, you may you have grown up and you didn't know about these things. You didn't know about this, you know, math or you didn't take calculus. Let me teach you.

Host 31:37

Yeah, I feel like DEI didn't lower the bar for you, it just showed you the bar existed.

Chane Jackson 31:41

That's right. That's right.

Host 31:42

Um, you know what what is the difference? Uh, so you can explain it to the audience. What's the difference between diversity and inclusion programs versus affirmative action? Because I think people conflate the two things.

Chane Jackson 31:52

So I think affirmative action is a forcing function in which you're trying to uh create diversity within an organization. Um and then therefore, in some cases, because they they have to or they try to meet a quota, they may or may not uh modify standards, right? But normally affirmative action typically is just trying to unpack and bring in uniqueness into an organization, but as a more of a forcing function. Whereas I feel like diversity, equity, inclusion is just is a way to expose and to show uh you know a unique population that is not in that particular sector or field to hey, or or a particular school. Like, hey, you guys don't apply to Harvard. Why not? Let's let's unpack this and let's show you what what it's about to be at Harvard or to be at the United States Military Academy. Not giving you, not giving it to you, not saying I'm gonna let you in, but just saying like you you can do this. Is this something you can apply for? Go for it, right? Um, and I think that's that's where people kind of they conflit conflate the two. They I think they're two separate things. Now, you can argue with me, you know, people can argue whatever it is, but I think they're two separate things. I think affirmative actions, like I said, like you're you're trying to section off, say, hey, we need to have so many number of Indian folks, we need Native Americans, we need this, or you know, and you're trying to force that kind of population so that way you show all we have diversity, which I'm not necessarily a fan of that. I'm more of a fan of like, hey, there's a job that you can apply for. We know you can do it. You've shown success in your history. You've shown that the fact that you can learn what we do. Let let me teach you this or let me show you what this is about. And it's up to you to pass, right? Because no one graduates Harvard without passing the exams. No one graduates West Point without passing the exams. At the end of the day, I don't care if you're black, white, Chinese, Indian, it doesn't matter. You have to pass.

Host 33:49

Yeah, people and people are gonna hear your story here in a second about West Point. Nobody gave you shit. So you had to earn every second of it. And that's, I think it's just really it's important to hear that part. I mean, what happens to kids in communities like where you grew up if they never get that exposure? If nobody ever tells them being an engineer is a real job or being a scientist is a real job.

Chane Jackson 34:10

And and that's and that's the challenge, right? Because then they think, oh, I'm just gonna do whatever I think I'm supposed to do, right? Um, you know, and not saying that if I was a painter, I wouldn't have been happy. Of course, I like being outdoors, hence why I went to the infantry, right? And that's what my profile said when I was in elementary. He said, You like being outdoors, right? Um, but at the same time, uh, you know, if if this young, these young folks don't see this, they don't know this, that it's a possibility, that's something they could do, or even if they have the gift or the talent, they don't, they may not even know that. And and I'm not gonna say all of them will, right? But some some will, some won't. But they need to at least be aware of it and exposed to it and then see, like, okay, maybe that's something I can venture to do. And thank God we live in the United States of America where it's not impossible to do anything.

Host 34:56

Amen. Um, you ended up getting into Eleanor Roosevelt, which was a science and technology uh school. Um, and I remember you told me like once you got there, you kind of feel like that's where you caught your wings. What did you mean by that?

Chane Jackson 35:08

Uh, you know, I think uh I think I I it's I I it's a funny story. This is I gotta tell you another story. I hate to say this. All right, so uh what was funny was I I got there and I was like, man, I'm not really sure what it's gonna be about. You know, it's a science technology program, but I was excited because I was like, well, this is a whole nother world. I've never been in this kind of environment before. Uh let's kind of see what this looks like. And I remember I I I saw the cross country team running. I was like, oh, I want to I wanna go run with these guys real quick. And so um my mom had this uh deal with me. She was like, well, you can't do any sports or athletics unless you get above a 3-0, right? So I had to I had I couldn't I couldn't be on the cross country team. So I'll just run with these guys. I'll just start running with them. And I was studying my butt off because I was like, I want to I want to do cross-country, I want to do a sport, I want to be involved in. And I and I was just running with them, and I remember the coach looking at me and be like, you know, you're not on the team, right? Yeah, I know, I know. I'm just gonna run with you guys. I'm gonna run with you. So I was just running with them and running. Um, and you know, I would show up to the different events they had on Saturdays, and my mom was never really, I didn't really talk to her about anything. And then uh, and then she found out and she was upset. She was pissed. Just pissed. I was like, uh oh. But then I came home and I had made honor roll and I had good grades. She's like, what is going on? Like, you've never made honor roll the you know, the whole time in you know, middle school and everything else. And I was like, Yeah, well, I mean, I did. It's like, so can I run cross-country? She's like, Yeah, okay, you can run. Um, and I and I think that's kind of where I got a chance to one, surround myself with folks that really were out to achieve excellence. Uh, some of those guys uh that I surrounded, like I told you, Andre, Nathan, uhwrence, um, Chris Jefferson, uh Will Jones, Joe Jones, all these folks I was surrounded with were really trying to pursue excellence in everything they did. And so it was great to be surrounded by that and to see that and to learn from it. Um, so I think, you know, uh I surrounded myself with good people. And I noticed that that that was the beginning where I was like, oh wow, if you surround yourself with the people that you you want to be like that are that are far better than you, that will help pull you up and help you become better. And so um I started to do much better in school, much better with my academics, uh, running. Um, you know, I you know, I wasn't always the, I wasn't the track great that I wanted to be at the make it to the Olympics or anything, but um I was able to push myself to another level, which I had never achieved. Right. And and and uh and and and the guys that I associated with back then, I still associate with now, which is amazing.

Host 37:45

You gotta tell the story on the podcast, man. You were the fastest kid in elementary and middle school. You get to high school, you're about to try out for the hundred-meter dash. It's funny, it's two-story. It's too it's too funny not to tell.

Chane Jackson 37:58

Go ahead, go ahead. All right, so uh, all right, I'll tell it, I'll tell the story. You forget, you got all this stuff written down. I forgot about that. All right, so um I I you know I was one of the fastest kids in middle school elementary. Um, you know, I was I fell short to one guy once uh or twice here and there, right? But I got to high school and I was like, man, I'm gonna be a bad dude. I'm gonna go in here and I'm gonna make the 100-meter dash and I'm gonna run the 200 and I'm gonna show these guys what's up. And just right after my cross-country stint, um, and I get in the blocks, the gun goes off, or or whatever, the whistle. I can't remember what it was. And I remember running down. Uh, but I know, wait. I remember putting my head up, and everyone was already halfway down the track. And I was like, oh man, and I took off. I'm trying to catch everybody, caught no one. Um, and I'm like, man, I didn't make the team, right? And uh, so I'm on my way, got my head down. I'm about to go up the stairs, and this guy is an older gentleman named Martin Ellis, coach Martin Ellis. Um, he gives me a little and I was like, what's up? He's like, hey, you want to be on the team? And I was like, Yeah, I want to be on the team, yeah, yeah. But I didn't make it. He's like, oh no, no, no, no, no. You come be on my team. I was like, what team is this? And I was like, what is this guy? What does this guy say? He's like, come run on uh run with us. I was like, but is this a separate team or who is this? He was like, oh, middle distance. I was like, middle distance, what's middle distance? I didn't know what it was. This man was running, he said he wanted me to run the two mile, uh, the steeple chase, the mile, the 800. I was like, well, what I got to lose, I didn't make the team. So I I signed up. And uh one of the things that Martin Ellis also showed was how to be resilient. Um, and I I love Coach Martin because he took a lot of kids on onto his team on his squad and he shaped us. Like he worked on our stride every day. Like every day after practice, I would sit there and work on my stride, work on my stride, work on my stride. And he would make us warm up with two to three miles as a warm-up. And then the workout was intense. And after the workout, work on the stride, work on the stride, work on the stride. And I remember there's some days we would do like 10, 400s, uh, you know, we'd we go, we run three miles as a warm-up, come back 10, 400s, and then I'd be doing strides all afternoon, late, late until like, you know, you know, seven, you know, seven, seven thirty at night. Um, and I remember like uh he would even have us go on like these 15, 16 mile runs from the University of Maryland, take us through DC, come back, and just working on like pushing ourselves to that next level. And I'd never pushed myself like that before. And I and I really appreciated it because later on I did get faster in those events, um, the shorter distances, because I did have a better stride. And he did work on that. Um mentally, I wasn't where I was, you know, where I was gonna be later in life, but I it's it started a path for me. Um and I and it started a path for most of the young men and women who ran with Coach Martin. Um, whether you like the way he trained it or not, we all changed who we were in terms of what we thought about ourselves, what we thought we could do, what we thought we could reach. And um I think I thank God for him. I thank God for that opportunity. And I think, you know, when I have the D1, that's what I want to bring to the kids that come to our facility, is have that ability to have that coaching to bring them to that next level that they won't get just from training in school.

Host 41:30

I love that story, man, because I think so often coaches, especially in public schools, they don't get the credit they deserve. Some do it for a stipend, but there's a lot of coaches, man, that really pour their heart and soul into athletes and believe in them, even when they don't believe in themselves. You know, sports are an outlet for some kids uh to get away from things that got going on in the world. And these coaches are just uh just so important, man. So shout out to all these coaches out there that are just you know putting that effort in. They don't get paid what they're worth to begin with. How did Martin Ellis change your life? Because it sounds like he saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself.

Chane Jackson 42:03

You know, I will tell you, um, that was the first thing. He saw something that I didn't see in myself, to the belief. Uh and uh regardless of the jokes, he he he like he he he he would always joke with me. He's like, you know, he's like, you're not you're not meant to run distance. He's like, he always tells me, he's like, you're gonna be a big boy. Like I was like, because I had a bigger frame. But I was thin then, you know, I was lightweight. But he's like, he's like, you got a big frame. He said, usually you play football or something. And uh I was like, no, no, I gotta run this distance. And he and I could never, I could never get to that elite level because I could never get past, they call it the wall. Like I could never get past the wall where your body just totally just dies on you. Um and but coach, coach, he always believed in me, but he always said just do your best. I remember the first time I ran the two-mile where I ran really, really fast. Um, and he he told me, uh, run it like you run the warmup. And I always used to, I used to run my warm-up. I was like, I just run my warm up. How do you run my warmup? I just go out there, start running laps, and I would gradually start picking up. Um for some reason that day, he was right. I ran it super fast because I I just was very comfortable and relaxed and just leaned on my stride and let my stride do the run, right? Um, and that kind of helped push myself to the next level. I was like, wow, I I can do this. I I can run fast, I can run at this long distance for a good pace. And um, and he he always kept putting me out there, kept pushing me, putting me in more events, and like wasn't wasn't worried about it and and he did this with everyone. I wasn't the only one. He he did this with everyone. He's like, hey, you got it. Get out there and run that 800. Like, what? 800? He's like, those guys are those guys are fast. Like, you'll be fine. And whether you lost or won, or whether you were in the front or back, you always came back with something, right? And he's like, Well, how'd you feel? How'd it make you feel? You want to do better? All right, you need to work on this thing, that thing. And then he would, and you would you would continue to get better and better every time. And by the time you got to your senior year, you were you were running with some of the best, and you were just like, Hey, I can hang with the pack. And you were surprised, and it was great. And then you were looking at opportunities, and his whole goal, I think, was to make sure we got the education, we could get to the place where we can get the education. Um, and we would get that exposure. And so, next thing you know, we'd go off to school and take care of ourselves and take care of our families, and that's kind of what he cared about. Whether or not we went to the Olympics or not was not his concern. Um, but he had a uh quite a few athletes that trained with him. One of them actually went to the NFL. Uh, some of them became elites. Joe was actually one of them. Joe Jones, uh, I was telling you about him. Uh he he's uh our he works, he's my he's my partner with the medical clinic. Um he went to the army, went to West Point, but he was running at West Point. He's running his quarters or his quarter miles in 46 seconds, right? But he trained with Martin, Coach Martin as well, right? So all of us were a part of that that community. of uh athletes that you know he really uh believed in us knew and convinced and was convinced that we were going to be successful in life not just in the sport but in life and and that's where he that's kind of what the torts that he kind of carried I carried with him from him throughout the rest of my life was like hey he he's got a fire and he believes I do too that's amazing man that's an amazing story uh let's talk about your your path to West Point because it it wasn't it wasn't a straight path um VMI recruited you for I think for cross country right oh yeah so VMI yeah I get so I got the call for VMI for cross country that's for for those of the for the listeners that don't understand VMI is the Virginia Military Institute it's probably what it's in the top five for academies for military academies so it's not uh so technically uh it it's an academy but it's it's you have to pay for it so it's it's a state sponsored uh you know military institution so you don't have to go to the military when you graduate Virginia military institutions but it but it is one of the yes very difficult to get into very difficult to graduate from uh um but you know I so I got recruited for cross country there which I was really excited about stoked um this is my dad had kind of came back into my life later um and so we drove down and uh you know we we kind of chatted a little bit on our way down and when I got to VMI uh you know everything looked good I was like man you know they were marching out there doing a parade I was like this is like awesome like this is cool I was like there's a lot of military stuff but it's I guess we can handle that they told me like oh you don't have to go to the military when you graduate some folks do go some folks don't you know but you get that military education while you're training and and you're going through your your schooling which I thought was pretty cool. But the tuition bill came out and they were like hey we're gonna give you a partial and and I was like I I couldn't afford the rest of it. I was like man I'll have to take out school loans is that next thing what what are some of the other options and so you know my dad and I talked about some of that we're like hey well you can figure it out figure out the you apply for grants is that next thing but I I couldn't make it all work. So it was just way too expensive because I was out of state because I lived in Maryland but Virginia Military Institute is in Virginia um if it had been in state I probably wouldn't have been able to go but it was I was out of state so um not not possible so I applied to like University of Maryland some other schools but when I got back I started talking to folks in my in the JRTC program. Now I wasn't in it I was not in JRTC I wanted to my mom wouldn't let me because of Vietnam right she was like I don't want you going to war or anything um but they were telling about going to Air Force Academy. I was like what's this Air Force Academy thing? I was like what is that?

Host 47:38

It's like oh it's a school I looked it up I was like this looks pretty cool. You know it's pretty crazy because those of us in the military we're all familiar with that but a lot of people outside of the military community they really don't understand that there are military academies.

Chane Jackson 47:48

No they don't they don't um and I didn't even know all of them at the time um so at in my mind at this point there were three that I knew about um and oh my four because I knew about the Citadel down in South Carolina. I knew about the Naval Academy because I'm living in Maryland so I know that's right there. I knew about Air Force Academy because of the JRTC cadets and I knew about VMI. That's it. I didn't know about West Point and all this other stuff. So I started that pursuit of going to Air Force Academy um put in application uh went ahead and did the physical fitness assessment did really well with that um I was in great shape and I mean I still am great shape now I was in better shape then though so I was in great shape did well there um then I start you start they have to do this interview with a representative or a senator so it's not an interview necessarily normally you would just apply and then they pick um but I and people don't understand like you're not just applying to regular call there's a lot of things that go into getting into it mode I mean I think you still have to get like a recommendation from a general or something to that effect. No no so you have to get a recommendation from uh a representative or a senator or you can get uh a presidential nomination or vice presidential nomination. Um I think uh if you're in the military you can also get a nomination uh via your command or your commander um it doesn't have to necessarily have to be a general but it but but your commander can nominate you um as a as another source of nomination if you're in the military which is good um and actually I'm going to West Point tomorrow to talk to uh the superintendent and commandant about getting more enlisted folks in the military into military academy um so so that's that's another route so there's five different ways I think and now you know correct me if I'm wrong I'm gonna find out tomorrow if there's more and I'll let you know.

Host 49:34

Well maybe we'll come back and just do a quick video for all the parents out there with kids in high school.

Chane Jackson 49:38

That's right. So so but Stanny Hoyer was my representative in my district um and and this this story is it's kind of funny. I go back to this because I applied I did the physical assessments and everything um and I and I was on the borderline for his nomination packets. So I'm not sure if he reviewed all the cadets or potential cadet candidates or just a few but he brought me in um and I remember it was like a little board panel kind of thing like a little mini board um and they started asking me questions right you know and I remember I was I thought I was doing well with the questions I thought it was good. And then Is this normy is this is this a normal process for for congressional folks to do this or is it different for every no I think it's different for everyone um I think it's different for everyone um some do board some don't um some like ask questions or interview with their they have their staff do it and so I some I but I don't know I mean I'm not really sure exactly uh how consistent it depends on how much they want to be involved and how much they don't want to be involved I think Stenny Hoyer the passionate man that he is he wanted to be more involved I think he wanted like for the especially for the folks that he kind of felt like were on the border he wanted to kind of make sure he had a little bit of like he wanted to make sure that final decision was made it's awesome. And I remember like uh us kind of you know going to the board and him closing the book on me and being like hey uh with your SAT and your grades there's no way I can send you to Air Force Academy. Although I think you could potentially be do well but there's no way. But he's like you know I do have room in my nomination package. I don't have a lot of people trying to go to West Point do you want to go to West Point? I didn't know what that was. I was like what is West Point what is that so I was like I'll take it oh so they only get to nominate so many so many so it depends on how many so I think each each representative gets a certain number of now I'm speaking out of tongue here because I don't know the admissions process but I think each representative for the number of cadets slots available at the academy so they get like maybe one or two cadets can be at the academy at a time um they get 10 nominations per availability. So if cadet graduates they get 10 nominations for the next class. Oh okay right or if a cadet quits then they they get 10 nominations then they get another 20 or something. Same thing with the senators I think um and presidential nominations if your parents have been in the military they're retired or they're medically retired or whatever then you can do a presidential or vice presidential nomination. So that that's a different pool of folks I wasn't in that pool. But that's that you can apply that way too which is great um getting a presidential nomination another route. So uh what what what what's what's funny is uh I wind up going to do the visit and I see my my friend Joe on the track. Now I'm just like Joe what are you doing here? I didn't know you're in West Point he said I told you I went to West Point I was like oh this is what it is I didn't know where he was at so it was kind of funny I was like oh this is this is it this is it and uh I got a chance to walk around and kind of see and I was like man this is like a big VMI because I saw a parade and I was like wow they got a they got a whole bunch of people and they were all wearing kind of a similar uniform and so to me it was just all the same right um but I was like all right let you know let's go apply so I applied and I actually did not get in and uh and that's kind of like where it kind of struck home I I did not get in. So I kind of was like hey well I can't really afford school maybe I'll go get this GI Bill and I signed up to go enlist and I was like hey I'm gonna go enlist and just go the enlisted route um and go get my uh Montgomery GI Bill go to school um and you know I talked over with my mom and everything um and and then I I got this letter in the mail that said I got into the United States Military Academy prep school and I was like I don't even know what this is I I had no idea that a prep school until we did this podcast yeah I didn't either so so again I was like well there's a school that exists that helps you get into West Point um so I called I called them I said hey what what is this and they're like hey you you got into the preparatory school and um you got a year to give it a shot if you don't make it we'll send you to you you just continue on your enlistment and go be enlisted in the army if you make it we send you on to the West Point and we got a job for you at Fort Wainwright Alaska if I didn't make it exactly but if I did make it then I was I was gonna go to West Point. So uh you know I I was like well I mean it's worth a shot if I make it or if I don't and it was before I was going to start anyway and uh um and then um so I was I was blessed to have that opportunity didn't know how that got presented in my lap I didn't know how I made it but I was like you know what I'll take it um and uh I also got accepted into the Air Force Academy Preparatory School too as well which is pretty funny right that came after a little bit later in the mail um but I wanted to go to West Point anyway because they they gave me the first shot and I was like you know what I'll I'll take it um so I was blessed to to to get a chance to do that and I and I thank I thank God for that one because uh you know I I'm sure they they were looking for uh folks who were in on the illicit path or folks who were were athletes or whoever who who were just on that borderline on the cusp of making it to West Point but didn't and I was one of those folks and I was very blessed.

Host 55:05

Didn't you did you go to base training at like Fort Dix or something like that?

Chane Jackson 55:08

No no so so we wound up doing our basic training through the prep school right so I never had to go through the I never had to go as like a so I I still I was still the E1 when I went through it but uh I went through the prep school's basic training. What was that like? Oh I mean you know it was pretty rough uh I mean uh I I wasn't ready for it for sure um I didn't know uh that they were gonna be all in my face right up when I got off the bus uh we were actually trained by drill sergeants uh masses well sergeant first class Vega was my primary drill instructor and he he he gave me ear fill he called me smiley uh he didn't like the fact I smiled all the time um I always got a smile on my face I was telling Dave the other day I'm like dude Chanae has one of the most infectious smiles of anybody you'll meet and I'm telling you master sergeant vega he wanted to become a master sergeant but sergeant first class Vega oh he gave me the steak man every day he dug into me so good and I loved it I mean I loved it I was like you know what he's just making me better right um and but you I want to push myself through that um it it was rough for folks like me out of high school the guys coming out of the army like enlisted folks um uh like my friend Felix Zayus Andy Moffitt those guys was for other folks transitioning like active duty guys right next to oh yeah wow yeah so like like you know Felix was uh Felix he's a great example he was a ranger regiment uh you know had a ranger tab and everything comes in there uh Ryan Edwards same thing they were already corporals in the in the army they're like oh there's nothing they they're just running in circles right uh me I was struggling it's like oh man it sucks yeah I would imagine I mean coming from like a a magnet school and you know like it's a professional environment I'm sure and and then to just people screaming at you it's gotta be no no that's right it was it was it was a lot um but you know uh the good thing is those guys help you like my friend Terry read uh he he he he he was also I think he was almost an E5 too as well like guys like him kind of mentored me and kind of helped me get through that what what what was that year like oh you know it was a year of learning um it was a year of uh of of of of all kinds of new things um for me uh we we still had our freedoms we still were treated like soldiers um and we still had the opportunity to kind of see the world a bit but the thing about it was it it showed me a totally different world that I had not been exposed to where now I had to have discipline um had to do you know I we still were in school studying so we still had to study at the same time we had to do all our military stuff at the same time we had to do uh you know leadership and we had different leadership roles we would fill and I learned a lot in those roles um I learned a lot from the friends around me um I learned a lot about you know being there for someone else um for me the folks that I was surrounded by like the the Terry Reds and the Francesca Graham and the Felix Zeus these are people I really cared about and they really cared about me and my success and I cared about their success too. And so it showed me more about what it is to be a part of a team. And it introduced me to this whole thing called the team right because you know I thought I was on a team when I was running track in high school but I did not know what it meant to really be on a team until being in that environment like being through those challenges because they I mean we had our challenges and some days we'd be out there in the quad getting smoked because we're doing the wrong thing the day before or someone had done something wrong and it's like and we're going through these challenges of carrying the log you know down. And I remember first Sergeant Spizo uh he was like the head you know uh uh uh TAC NCO in charge and attack NCO is a non-commissioned officer so uh tactical non-commissioned officer over tarred to the cadets and he would just have us running with the log down the street and we're just like ah you know but these the this is the first time I had I had been exposed to what it means to actually be a part of something bigger than yourself, right? Where everyone else everyone was there pushing each other. We had a couple folks wind up like quitting and everything. But for the most part everyone just stayed stayed entrenched and really pushed through and um and I I was really proud of it.

Host 59:13

How did that prep school year prepare you for West Point? Because you said something important. You said if you'd have gone straight to West Point out of high school you probably would have flunked out. I would have yes what what was it about that year at prep school that really prepared you for West Point? I mean I know you talked a little bit about you know learning what it meant to be a team but do you I mean did that did that year at that prep school really prepare you um for West Point?

Chane Jackson 59:34

Yes because uh the thing about it is it I hadn't been in the military right I hadn't been into ARTC I hadn't been in actually a soldier yet. So it prepared me for one understanding that mentality understanding what it takes to to be disciplined and to do what you need to do and have the focus. Two also to support your colleague to your left and right what is that that that's a that is not just like oh I'm gonna help you when you need help like it's truly knowing like hey we are one and we're gonna get through this together. And in their struggle is your struggle too. And also like uh especially coming out of high school is everything was about me me me um I think that's the biggest thing that I had not really understood yet. And even then at prep school I was starting to understand it. I hadn't gotten there just yet but I still started to see like oh this is this is a you know but I was still trying to you know a little bit of competitive trying to be better than but but at the same time I was like you know what I'm I'm never gonna be better than than Terry Red. That dude's a monster right I'm never gonna be ready to Felix so I was like hey I these guys they they know some stuff I can learn from these guys um but look just all the stories they would tell me and uh uh and the things about being in the military and uh just knowing what it means to to to be a soldier to understand what it takes to to be resilient and and to go through those hard those challenges like like I said Felix went to ranger school and so did Ryan Edwards and so hearing their stories about those those those schools I was like man I'll never be able to get through stuff like that but knowing that that's there and knowing that I could do it because they did it right and they they would always tell me you can do it man you got it and I'm like okay um but uh the biggest thing is just understanding um you know there's this world in the military where you know it is about your it is about your comrade right that's how they thought they didn't they didn't think about just themselves they always thought about about me and the person next to them right so I had I had to kind of change myself as well to do that. That's that that was huge. Because going to the academy you you you can be on the island really fast because you you are you are really um you you're going through it um and they're trying to put you through it because they want to make sure you've got what it takes.

Host 1:01:51

Yeah. So you graduate to prep school um you make it into West Point. You had a squad leader uh when you got there she told you were going to fail because you went to prep school and because you were black.

Chane Jackson 1:02:03

How did you process that as a 19 year old kid is that the first time you'd experienced something like that no it's not the first time I experienced that kind of language but it's the first time that um I experienced it in that that environment um and I I know that she did not mean harm by that um I know that that's probably what she had thought and what she had seen through her time at the academy. And I later on ran into her um and I didn't I didn't let that I didn't let that pull me down. If anything that gave me the motivation energy to to be successful. And I remember that her saying that to me and you know what it it it hurt at the time but it didn't it didn't stop me. Because but but when I saw her and this is where the beauty of it comes out two years later I saw her. She was a senior and I was a sophomore and I had done really I was doing really well at the academy and she had a tear in her eyes and she she apologized for saying that and that meant so much to me where she's just like I I didn't know and I and I could see that you are going to make it and you are doing really well and I'm sorry for saying that to you so many years ago and um and she gave me a hug and we and you know and I mean and and it meant a lot to me. So so but that was the that was the first time in that environment like I said like you know you you hear you hear it before when you're in the streets obviously um in the city and stuff it doesn't mean you brush it off with a shoulder right people say things um but definitely in that environment where um I thought my squad leader was gonna really take care of me really try to motivate me um it hurt a lot um but later on it felt really good to see that she had the belief and she had the faith in in my success which is good.

Host 1:03:57

At West Point everything is run by cadets uh older cadets run the younger ones how how did that power dynamic work when you had the people in leadership positions you know either they're not that much older than you or you know maybe they think you don't belong there. Like how how does that all how do you deal with that?

Chane Jackson 1:04:14

Oh no I mean I think I think that's a part of peer leadership right um I actually loved it because what you know yeah regardless of how they treat you when you're cadet or whatever you run into them later in the army or you run into them later in your career and you're peers. So you're typically about the same rank um if maybe one rank difference um but you see each other again and it's like seeing a family member is like seeing a a a brother or sister and you you you hobnob about the stories and you're like oh man I remember when you talk smack about this and you haze me a little bit like I remember that. But you know but but but at the same time you still have the love and passion for them. So I would say while you're going through it it sucks.

Host 1:04:54

You're like man this this jerk uh or you you either you just feel like they don't have the right to talk to you that way or you feel upset um but then in hindsight 2020 uh you keep perspective on it like you you did do something wrong and that's the biggest thing is you have to reflect on what you did wrong like so yeah they're getting on you maybe they're a little bit over the top sometimes uh maybe that they're not maybe they shouldn't be as harsh as they should be right sometimes right but instead of pointing the finger at their actions it's best to reflect on what you have messed up and your mistake so you can better yourself so next time you are the one in their position you're making that correction because you you do it right and you know what right looks like and a lot of people I mean I you know to your point like I would imagine at some point West Point's like shared trauma dude it's four years of basic training I've had a lot of friends of uh that have gone through West Point I'm obviously enlisted I didn't I didn't do that but I've heard a lot of the stories and you're like dude that sounds like four years of basic training and it's funny I I've you look at these West Point cadets always watch the Army Navy game and they interview and like you see these 21 22 year old kids man but they speak so so different than kids you know that that aren't in the you know in a military academy because you grow up quick right because when you leave West Point you're expected to lead people it's probably got to be one of the most premier leadership courses besides maybe like the Naval Academy or or the others but it's the the people I've officers I've I've encountered from West Point they're they're different for a reason right I think that it probably speaks to that leadership uh you know training you guys get there. How how do you explain West Point to somebody who didn't serve you know um I tell everybody um you know especially for folks who didn't serve they're like man what is what is it like going there?

Chane Jackson 1:06:39

I tell them that it is a a grueling four years where if you try to survive that four years by yourself, you're not gonna make it. I think it's those four years I really learned how to depend and lean and work with the folks around me. I mean I really feel like everyone around me Pulled me through that. Whether you call it pulling or not, you will have and it will expose your weaknesses. For whatever it's worth, like any anything you think you're good at, I mean, it'll it'll show you what you're not good at for sure. Um, and but the folks around you will be good at it, and those are the folks that can get you through it. And I tell everybody it's it, you know, it's a challenge you physically, mentally, uh spiritually, everything, right? Um, you gotta keep your faith. Uh some folks is probably pretty easy to get through it, right? Some folks. Um, for me, it was not. Um, and um I I thought every day was a new challenge, and you had to rise to it and rise above it. Um, and you had to learn to lean on your team and talk to your folks around you. Uh, and and that success is would help bring the the entire team up. Um, so I I do think my four years was probably the the most challenging four years I've had, um, especially in a school or in life in general. Um, but when you finish at the end of that, like you, you, you, you've done so much. And so what I tell normally, when I tell somebody and they're a normal person, I'm just like, you know, um it it is a challenging four years where you know after you get done with that, you can do anything.

Host 1:08:18

That's awesome. Uh, your first year at West Point, you're taking English. Math is easy for you, but English is is is somewhat hard. Your instructor's name was Major Hater, which when you first told me that, I thought you were like, that was a nickname, but that was his real name, right?

Chane Jackson 1:08:31

That's damn Major.

Host 1:08:33

Yeah, you turn it. You're turning your first paper, and I alluded to it in your intro, and you've you know been through prep school, you're feeling I'm pretty confident, and he he grades it and gives it back to you. What was the grade? Uh he gave me an H.

Chane Jackson 1:08:46

I've never heard of that. An H plus. Let me tell you about that. Let me tell you about Major Hater. Um so first paper. Um, I was very proud of that first paper. I was like, man, this paper is gonna knock his socks off. And I was like, man, he's gonna love this paper. And and his name was Major Hater. Um, or it is, so no, he's not dead. He's alive. Um, and so I had that paper in, you know, a couple days later he gave it back and it had H plus on it. I thought it was a B plus, maybe. I was like, maybe this, maybe he just forgot to connect the B. So I go up to him and I was like, hey sir, um I think you kind of wrote this kind of a little backwards here. Is this supposed to be a B or a B plus? He said, Oh no, no, no, Mr. Jackson, no, no, no, no, no. He said, it's not a B plus. I said, Oh, oh, so it's like, so what is it? Is this like an F or an E? He's like, oh no, no, no, no, it's not an E or an F, not at all. He said, he said, an F would not give this paper justice, is what he told me. He said, he said, not good enough for a G, but it was a solid H plus. I said, that's like backwards. I said, A is the best. So I'm guessing H plus is like really bad. He's like, really bad, Mrs. Jackson. You need to work on this. He said, you got some serious writing issues we need to fix. And I had grammatical issues, I had structural issues, I mean, everything was messed up in my paper. Um, I later found out. So I didn't, I well, I said, well, I don't, I'm not, I don't want to fail. I because at this point, you know, at the academy, like if you fail two classes or a class or two, you're you're done. They'll send you home, right? Um uh and they they give every cadet a chance, so they they work with you, right? But I was like, man, I can't, I can't fail out. I can't go back home and not have made it. I I gotta put my best foot forward. So um I went to additional instruction every day. Um, every day I was in his office. It didn't matter if we had something to do or not, I was in his office. I went to uh the Center of Enhanced Performance at West Point, it was was led by a woman named Dr. Diadamo Weinstein. And I would work on my English with her in the evenings, and I would go to the Center of Enhanced Performance during the day. In the evening, I would go to his office and I would continue to push myself uh with English. And and and I failed every paper. Failed D. I started getting D's after a little bit, and then I was like, okay, I'm getting a D now, it's good. So I went from F E to D. So H plus F E to D, right? I was like, oh man. So I took the final exam. Um, and this is kind of where the story kind of comes ahead here. I took the final exam, and I want to say I failed it, but I did, I did my best, right? Major hater petitions for me to get a D. Uh he later petitioned for me to get a C plus in the class. So I show back up and I see I got a C plus on my report card, and I go to his office and I said, Hey, sir, I know I didn't ever score a C on any paper I wrote in your in your class. I said, So how do I have a C plus in your class? And he said to me, and I never forget it, you're the kind of officer I want to see in the army. And he's like, Your English sucks. It's gonna get better. And it is, it has improved over the semester. And I want you to hop right into your next class, get right after it, and work on your English, but don't stop. He said, But take this C as uh a word to you that I think you have what it takes to be a successful officer in our military. So I say that because fast forward, I'm a teacher, I'm judo instructor at West Point, and I'm taking my cadets up to the Royal Military College. And I got my cadets running around there, you know, and we go into this uh church at the Royal Military College, and there is retired Colonel Hayter in a distance. He sees me and he's like, John, hey, and I'm in full uniform, he's in full uniform, runs up, gives me this big hug, and uh, and I couldn't believe it was it was Colonel Hater. He was he was there with the chess team. I was like, Colonel Hayter's in the wow, what a coincidence, Colonel Hader's here. And he sees I'm special forces, I'm a ranger, all the things. And I got valor awards and stuff, and he's just like, and he's in tears. And he says to me, he says, See, I knew you'd be the officer we need in the military. And that's what he says to me. He says, I knew it. And he was really proud. And we both cried and it was great.

Host 1:13:17

How uh, how did it, you know, I I'm sure as a freshman in college, you maybe didn't process it, but how did you process that later on when you realize what he really did? And, you know, how, I mean, because again, you could have, I think you said you called your mom at one point and said, Hey man, I'm I might be getting I might be going back in the army.

Chane Jackson 1:13:33

I told my mom, I said, Hey, look, is my room still open? If you got something in there, you need to clean it out.

Host 1:13:40

Yeah, how how do you process that now looking back and and seeing uh not only did he, you know, take a chance and push you, but you obviously became a leader. You know, how did it make you feel? But how did it affect you later on when you became a leader?

Chane Jackson 1:13:53

You know, I think uh what the beauty of what he did to me was he he created uh, you know, I didn't have the mental resilience that I thought I did, uh especially when it came to academic rigor. Um pushing myself in that arena was new. Physically, no problem, right? I I was comfortable with that, especially having run track, cross country, Steve Chase. Uh knowing that my body could could push itself was was one thing. But in the academic world is a whole nother. Um, and so I I he was in a way, now mind you, when he when he did see me, by the way, he said, Hey, I'm sorry for being so hard on you. He did apologize. He said, I was a bit of a dick. Just so you know. But I didn't hold it against him, but he did, he did show me something about mental resiliency, um, about uh knowing that you yourself, your mental acuity can be far vast than you think. Um, in a world in which I I was like, hey, you know, I I could have just walked away. I could have said, you know what? I'm just gonna fail. I can't do this. I'm not gonna make this, right? But but instead, I continued to keep coming. And he never, like I said, he never closed the door on me when I went to his office. He never said, hey, you can't come in. Every time I went to his office, he'd open that door and we sit down and talk about what we need to talk about, syntax, grammar, whatever it was. Now that's English, of course. But that that played a part in how I would approach life, right? He shaped how I would approach my studies in the future. He shaped how I would approach a challenge academically in the future. He'd shaped a lot in terms of what I thought about myself and what I thought about what I could achieve. And he knew that. And I think that was a part of why he continued to do that. And he and every day he'd give me a paperback, like he knew, like, hey, this wasn't the standard. You got to hit the standard. That's what I'm waiting on. And and and like, of course, I started hitting the standard after a while, but he still kept giving me like challenging grades.

Host 1:15:57

So I he knew it. And it was great. You said something so profound when we podcast prep, and you were telling him a story. You said that he didn't lower his standard. He made you rise to meet it. And that gave you the grit you needed to be successful later on in your career. Can you explain that a little bit and why that's so important?

Chane Jackson 1:16:10

Well, because I think, you know, it goes back to the diversity, equity, and inclusion piece, right? Um, not saying he was doing that because I was African-American. That's not at all. He was doing that because I wasn't meeting his standard. He had a very high standard in his papers and in this body of work. And so instead of being like, hey, ah, I see you're working on it. Let me give you. He he he wanted me to rise to it, meet it, be it, and be better than it, right? Um, and and then that C plus is one of the proudest grades I have at the academy. Um, and because it it is is something that showed me that, all right, yes, right, having the discipline to continue to do the work is one thing. Having the understanding, the knowledge, and the know-how to, hey, this is the standard. I want to be better than that. I want to reach excellence, I want to strive for excellence. Because, you know, he he didn't just accept the bare minimum. Now, mind you, he was grading hard on those papers, on all the cadets, right? On all the cadets, not just me. Um I think my level of writing and my skill in writing was far better because of him and because of that bar he set and and striving for that excellence, striving for that mark. Um, and and and I and I approached that in all my classes, right? Where I was like, hey, you know what? I don't but even then, not only did I approach in those classes, what I did was I turned it around and I gave it back to my fellow colleagues. Because I did notice after that first semester, a lot of my classmates, you know, ones from prep school especially, had to leave because they didn't pass classes because they failed. And so I didn't want that to happen to the rest of them, the guys who are still hanging out there, right? Like my Felix Zayas and and Terry Redd. So I just I started tutoring and get in and providing my strength to those around me and helping help them get to excellence and helping them achieve excellence. And I think that's part of where, like, you know, his story kind of carried through me. Um, and I had a team leader, my next team leader I had um, you know, was a guy named Joel Shoemaker. And this dude was he getting 4.22 GPA and all that kind of good stuff. And this guy's a legend, right? And he's just he's just stroking through this thing. But he physically had issues. So I would help him physically, he'd help me with the academic piece, and then I was helping my fellow colleagues and students and everyone around me. So I think that's really where um he kind of pushed me to a whole nother level in terms of you know academic excellence.

Host 1:18:35

That's awesome. After the first rough semester, you started to kind of figure things out academically. You had a team leader named Joel Schumacher. Tell me about him.

Chane Jackson 1:18:43

Oh, Joel, Joel was the man. Uh so Joel was my team leader. Um, I was a bit of a challenge for him because I, you know, I had those uh you know, Snicker bar shoes where I didn't really shine my shoes real well. And I had the wrinkly pants. So I was a military challenge for him and both the academic and military challenge. So I did I did okay academically that first semester where I kind of came out on uh you know above above water. Um but I saw him and he was just this dude just soared. Uh he knew how to manage his time. Uh he he he was doing everything well in terms of militarily, shining everything. Uh but he did have a bit of a challenge with the the physical side of things. Um, so we made a deal. Uh we said, hey, look, how about we work out together in the morning and you show me how you do things academically and how you set yourself up for success. Uh so uh Joel, uh who wound up becoming a gate scholar later, uh phenomenal individual, um, was like, hey, let's do that. And so he showed me how to keep myself organized mentally, how to maintain schedule, and also how to do that and still provide resources and help to folks around me and help my classmates. Um, so he was like, hey, no, that he's and he told me like doing that would only strengthen uh not only them, but myself as well. Because then I would start looking for the answers to questions that they they had. Like, I don't I don't really know that answer. I had to figure this out. And because I would figure it out, it made me a master of the subject. Um and it and and and he was like, hey, become a master of the subject, become a master domain. But you when you're striving for this excellence, teaching your classmates and exposing them to it and helping them achieve excellence as well will not only help you, but it'll help everyone around you. And I was like, Oh, great, I'm gonna do that. Um, so I went up to Dr. D. Diamond Wanstein, I started a tutoring program. Uh Joel was a big fan of it. Um, but we we worked out every day. Joel wound up going to French commando school and getting his French commando badge or whatever that thing is. Um, he wound up doing really, really well um militarily and like he went off into the military, did great. Um, but yeah, yeah. Uh so Joel, Joel definitely showed me a different side of the academic uh academia than than than Major Hater. Major Hader showed me about academic resilience. Joel showed me about achieving that academic excellence, which I was like, wow, this is this is new. Again, is that I got a chance to be exposed, and someone taught me that, which was amazing.

Host 1:21:13

Yeah, he I think if I remember the story right, I mean, he he kind of pushed you. You were really good math. Um, and so you started tutoring people, and you guys started off the Center for Enhanced Performance. Uh, they would let you use space in the evenings and you would hold tutoring sessions. That's right. Chemistry, physics, and math, I think is what you told me.

Chane Jackson 1:21:29

Yeah, yeah, it's a chemistry, physics, and math. And we've later got English in there too.

Host 1:21:32

Yeah. You know, one of the things that it was kind of, you know, when you first started telling the story, you know, first a couple people came and then people started doing well. What happened?

Chane Jackson 1:21:40

Uh, you know, so it like anything else. Um, at first it was, you know, a couple of my classmates from prep school were like, hey, we're interested, they need help. They wanted some help in some things. And Felix was one of the ones that led the charge with chemistry, especially. Um, you know, Terry kind of came up there a few times. And then once they started doing well and started passing exams, and it started growing, you know, Francesca brought some folks in. We started getting a whole bunch of folks in there um that really wanted to kind of start working and improving their math and English and everything else. And uh so then I had a chance to like I was teaching like full classes of folks, especially before exams time, you know, like we're full classes of folks going through exams, going through um, you know, we did I even had stats and dynamics in there a few times of folks doing that, um, just a variety of subjects. And and and and we set up a whole tutoring program because at some point, at one point, it got too much where I had to actually start talking to some of my other classmates who were also strong in some subjects, like, hey, can you help with you know with with chemistry? Like a guy named Winters. Um, you know, I said, Hey, Winters, can you can you help me with with the chemistry side of the house? Because I can't, I can't tutor them and tutor the math people at the same time. Uh so it kind of grew. Um, and while the four years I was there, um, by the time I graduated, it had grown into this monster um that that really was helping cadets outside of the teacher resource because you could always go to your instructor for additional instruction, but now it was a space where cadets could come in and and get uh get help. And Dr. Thanks to Dr. Dia Down Weinstein of having that program and having opened that up uh to to in the evening times, we were able to do that. Um, and it was a great, it was a phenomenal thing. Now the challenge was as I got a little bit older and more senior in my cadet career, I started to forget some of those earlier math lessons. So it's it's getting challenging to you know teach the freshman because, like, man, I can't remember. What did I do there?

Host 1:23:29

I thought it was interesting because your GPA went from like a 3.3 to a 3.8, and then you started hitting 4.0s. I think you were telling me, how did teaching others make you better?

Chane Jackson 1:23:38

Uh, you know, so to be honest with you, uh, is because they they they challenge you with their questions. They challenge you, like every everyone around you, one, they will show you things that you may not know or you may not be aware of, but two, um, they make you push yourself to understand it better, uh to understand the material better. And I enjoyed it. I mean, to be honest, I enjoyed working with my colleagues, working with my classmates, and and seeing them be successful. I mean, the best thing that ever happened to me was, you know, Felix coming in and I and coming and saying, I passed my chemistry exam and big old hug and a smile. I'm just like, you know, old Ranger, you know, old Ranger Felix, and I'm just like, I'm excited. I'm like, man, great job. And I'm happy because now he's gonna be there. He's gonna stay, and we're we're gonna be able to do this thing together, right?

Host 1:24:24

Um, and you're seeing results, and that becomes infectious.

Chane Jackson 1:24:26

Right, it becomes infectious, right? And and and but it's it's also um you don't want you don't want to make the mistake. You don't want to make a mistake because you don't want them to go in there and answer the question wrong. Right. So you gotta make sure your stuff is locked tight. Um, and and because it's locked tight, you know, you be you you you understand the material to a different domain. Like you, you you understand a lot better than just, oh, I I can work through the process. Now I understand it to the point where if I can show you how to do it and I understand fundamentally why it is it is what it is, because you're gonna because they're gonna ask that question, why do you doing it this way? Why are you doing a derivative like this? Why are you doing this? And it's so then you have to master that. Like, well, you have to be able to explain it. Oh, and that actually helped me later on as an instructor at West Point because I wound up going back later and being an instructor, so it does help.

Host 1:25:14

Crucial day, most Americans remember, man. You were at West Point on September 11th, 2001. Where were you and and and what happened?

Chane Jackson 1:25:21

So I was actually in Arabic class. Um I was sitting in Arabic class, Colonel DeMayo was our instructor, um, and the TV was on, and didn't realize I thought it was like Al Jazeera or something, I can't remember what it was. And I saw one of the planes hit the tower. Now we in the class thought was just like, what kind of movie is this? A sick movie, right? Um he looks, of course, this is an Arabic class, and uh he goes running out. Uh and we're like, I don't know, what's going on? What's going on? And we're kind of like stuck and we're not not sure what's happening. Comes back in and he's like, Hey, you know, they just hit the twin towers. Like, who's they? And um, of course, you know, that's when the war on terror started. Now, mind you, it's funny, uh, and why that's funny is because I actually signed up for Spanish class um and wanted to be in Spanish. And uh Spanish was full. So, like, hey, we're gonna put you in advanced Spanish. I don't want to be in advance Spanish, I'm not, I'm not there yet. All right. I was like, I wonder, so what other classes can I take? And they said, well, you either can take Chinese or Arabic. And I was like, well, of those two things, I think maybe I'd take a shot at Arabic because I feel like Chinese is a little hard. Really hard. They're like, all right, and I knew Arabic was gonna be hard too. I was like, man, it's gonna be tough. Um, so just being in that class, which is a coincidence, I was in Arabic class on that day, because this is my sophomore year, it was my first semester in Arabic. And I was like, oh man, I was like, so this is rough. And uh I remember even talking to my my uh my friend Joe on the on the phone because he had graduated, and I was like, hey, Joe, did you see what just happened? He said, Oh, trust me, I know, because he was in 100 first, and and I didn't realize at the time they were like mobilizing, getting ready. Um, so so right then I was like, oh man, this is like this might change my life. But then I thought, you know, I was like, and I started doing some math, and so people started quitting at the academy.

Host 1:27:23

Uh folks started leaving. Yeah, that was interesting. What what what was it with 9-11 happening that and then people started quitting? Did people start realizing they were gonna go to war?

Chane Jackson 1:27:31

I think that's what it was. I mean, we we started seeing folks actually shipping out, going to Afghanistan. Um, so folks started dropping out. Um That's wild. Like calling it, uh, you had to your junior year to to make the commitment. Um, and at that point, um, some folks were like, hey, I'm not signing up for that.

Host 1:27:47

Do they have to repay those first three years?

Chane Jackson 1:27:49

No, no, the first two years, no. Only if only if you pass your junior year. So, like your junior years where you make the commitment to to go on and continue to serve and do the next seven. Did not know that. Right. So up to your first two years, you have the ability to just kind of resign.

Host 1:28:03

Are you getting paid in West Point too? Do you get a do you get another?

Chane Jackson 1:28:05

You get a you get like a stipend, but it's small. It's it's a small stipend in the beginning. Um it's a little bit bigger. Um, I think it's a portion of an e-force paycheck, I think it is. Um, but then by your junior year, it gets a little bit more, a little bit more, because now you're committed, right? Um uh and I think you know, and that and that's a good, I'm glad they have that in the system because there are some folks that go through the system to like, hey, this this isn't for them, right? But every academy has that.

Host 1:28:31

Every academy has like your junior years are when you commit. Well, and I guess I've somebody that served and had to work with officers, like, you really don't want the guys that didn't want to be there.

Chane Jackson 1:28:38

That's right. You don't want to be. Yeah, no, no, you don't, you don't. Um, and I think for us, it was it was a big, it was a big year because our sophomore year was, you know, 2001 9 11 hit. Our junior year was the commitment. Like in that point, people had to start making some decisions. Now, for me, um, I had not yet become who I I became later. Where I was committed to service yet. I enjoyed the folks around me. I enjoyed my comrades. But to me, I was like, well, Gulf War I only lasted like, what, six, seven months? I said, maybe this thing only lasts six, seven months. That's what I thought. I'm not worried about it. It'll probably be over by the time I get there, right? That's what I said. But uh it didn't. You know, hindsight 2020, you know, 20 years later, I was still in that same war, right?

Host 1:29:25

Your senior year, did you guys start having combat vets coming back to teach? Was it that soon?

Chane Jackson 1:29:30

So I don't uh I I think we I think we started getting one or two. Uh I remember uh a major Ameron came back through. Oh, we started we started getting a couple of them, uh but but it wasn't a lot yet.

Host 1:29:44

It wasn't a lot yet. Yeah, and if I remember right, I don't know if it was you that told me, it might have been somebody else, but like after 9-11, you guys you had instructors at West Point that started disappearing, right? They went back to units or that's right.

Chane Jackson 1:29:54

Now, see now instructors started disappearing. That's different, right? So we had some special forces instructors and some infantry guys, they they all started like up and leaving, right? Um, a lot of them did get destabilized to some degree, but some of them started like getting called up, right? Um, and and and um and honestly, as a cadet, I had no idea what was happening. I was like, I was like, what happened to Major Such and Such? Like, oh, he's gone. He's he's he's he's in he's in the mix, right? And and I understood like fast forward later, right, when I saw some of those instructors were now battalion commanders and were in these units, and I was like, oh wow, that's where you went. Or would they call them tactical officers where they they are supervising um a company of cadets, a group of cadets, uh some of those uh those officers also start disappearing and going over. And and that that was a great thing.

Host 1:30:41

Um did the tone change at West Point? What do you mean? As far as you know, after 9-11, now you have instructors are teaching now. I mean, not that it wasn't real before, but now it's like it's real. We're at war because the war dragged on, so you you figure, you know, into your junior and senior year, I mean the GWAT had already kicked off. Oh, yeah. Um, did the mood change as far as like how instructors talk to you, or maybe how they talked, like you know, what you guys were talking about? I mean, it's a leadership academy, but you know, sometimes when you're in a P, I mean, again, I I was in peacetime and a wartime army, it's a way different vibe. Um, I'm just curious if if you know the mood change and how your instructors asked, or maybe your tax uh as as they were, you know, talking to you guys post-9-11, uh, because it's it's real and the war's not stopping.

Chane Jackson 1:31:24

So I I think one of the things uh I don't think the tone had changed just drastically yet. Um I think our Commandant, uh General Brooks, Leo Brooks, was definitely uh, you know, he he definitely has a serious tone in terms of like what we're heading into, um, and like you know, the superintendent. Um they they definitely knew that we were about to go into uh an environment which they they had not themselves been in, right? Um uh and I think that's wild just a process in and of itself. Oh yeah, no, no. And it's like, you know, uh our our leadership, um no one had really, I mean, yes, the tone had changed in a little bit in terms of like, hey, yeah, you guys are about to go, and we we don't we're not really sure what you're gonna get into. Um but there was some some heavy talks happening. I remember uh General Senseki came in to visit. Um he came in to talk to the cadets, and I got a chance to have a closed door session with him with several other cadets. Um it was like a special uh class, a scholarship class, and we sat down in uh and we got to ask him questions and he talked about his testimony on the Congress. He talked about how he maintained his integrity and his and his ethics, and he told him exactly the truth about us being you know prepared to go into a two-front war and how he felt like that we we lacked in that preparation and we weren't ready for that, and he was willing to take the consequences, um, and which they did relieve him after that because I remember that. Yeah, and and he said he because that that was his duty, uh, and and uh having those conversations was pretty heavy, right? Um, and then General Sasheki, um, I did ask him the question about his foot. I don't know if you know about General Saseki's foot. Um I and I I raised my hand, I said, Hey sir, someone told me like you lost half your foot in Vietnam. You know, mind you, I'm just and I'm saying this because you know we're just talking about war and stuff. And he goes, and he takes off his shoe and he's like, I did. He said he learned how to run with half a foot. And I was just like, Oh. He said, and this is the realities you guys are about to face. He said, You guys are about to go into combat, and uh, you're about to see a lot of things that may be traumatizing to you. Um, he said, and and I and I and I know that you're gonna be prepared because you're going through this institution and and they're doing everything you can to make you a better leader uh and make you the leader you need to be and to rise to that challenge when you get over there. And uh, and and that and hearing that from a guy like General Zinseki, who who was not only uh a cadet, but he was also came back as an instructor. I don't know if you knew that. He taught English at West Point.

Host 1:34:14

The only thing I remember about General Shinseki is he's the one that made us all wear the praise.

Chane Jackson 1:34:20

You're talking about the black brake?

Host 1:34:22

Oh yeah.

Chane Jackson 1:34:22

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Host 1:34:23

I was there when we transitioned. That was that was his that was his brain job.

Chane Jackson 1:34:28

You know, I yeah, yeah, that's right.

Host 1:34:32

That's that's that's honestly really the only thing I remember. And I remember what he looked like because I remember we were we all whipped him up when we when we went through that transition.

Chane Jackson 1:34:38

Yeah, he's a great, he's a great human being.

Host 1:34:39

Another guy you talked about kind of when we were doing our prep is uh you mentioned Lieutenant Colonel uh Xavier Garrett, uh now later General. Um can you tell me about meeting him?

Chane Jackson 1:34:48

Oh yeah, that was uh he's he's been my mentor since the beginning. Like he's one of my mentors. So General Garrett, we first met. I I was uh I was a very senior cadet. I was running uh uh the summer training. Um and I usually work out with the cadets uh because as a senior, um um, and I was like uh what they would they say, I was like in a what they call a regimental command, right? Um I would I would work out with the our the sophomores going through the the training. And so they had like a 10K run that was in through the hills and through the mountains and stuff, and you kind of come through. And I told him, I said, well, look, sir, he was brand new. I was like, you you want to come run with us in the morning? We're gonna start at like five in the morning or something. And normally I was like, man, there's no way he's gonna show up. You know, he shows up five in the morning. I'm like, okay, sir. And so we start running together, and uh, and I'm like, sir, I gotta go because I gotta beat these cadets. I can't I can't be running back here. Like, and and I didn't realize he was just kind of warming his body up. Now at my age, I understand that's what he was doing. Hey, he can't just get out there and support. So I take off running, and I'm trying to catch the cadets, and I'm trying to cut that cadets, and I'm trying to get up to the front, right? And I'm about a mile out from the finish line, and I hear footsteps. I'm like, who's catching me right now? Because I'm like, I'm trying to, I'm I'm beaming, I'm trying to catch folks. I'm like, who's coming up here with the with this this leg at the end of this run? And there it is, Lieutenant Colonel Garrett. And he's he's running up behind me, passing me. I'm like, oh no. And so so I'm like, start running after him, right? And he sees me and he's like, he's running, he's running. And then uh we're about a hundred meters from the finish, and I and we're at a we're both at a dead sprint. And like, and he dives across the finish line and then wins. I was like, no, I got beat by the colonel. And uh he doesn't even remember the story, like he just remembers just going on a run. He just doesn't care. And we talk about it sometimes, and I'm like, you remember that's the first time we actually interacted, and I had a lot of respect for him because of that.

Host 1:36:43

Um, I think he you told me he said, I'm gonna tell your first commander I beat you.

Chane Jackson 1:36:47

And he did, and he did. He told he told Kevin Owens that he beat me. That's right. Uh and it, but but what makes it special is uh later on when I actually picked infantry, I wanted to be a pilot my whole cadet career, and uh, I was thought maybe I was gonna go be an astronaut and stuff. I wound up going to the infantry because I wanted to be with the troops, I wanted to lead on the battlefield, and I had I had this a different perspective on what it means to serve, right? And I felt like my best opportunity to serve would be around folks and around people, and I felt like the infantry was the best place for me to be. And so he took me on as one of his uh sponsored me for one of the infantry cadets, and he sponsors a few, myself, Lou Etienne, um to the audience who may not understand what that means. So, so so what it means is like when you have selected a branch of service in the not a branch, but I guess a military occupational specialty of either the infantry or the armor community where you're a tanks or aviation, usually West Point will try to pair you with um an officer um that's already been in that field. Um, and so that way you can get kind of mentored by that. And the infantry was, you know, frontline soldier. Um, they had that special, they had that program where you would be mentored by um an officer who's in that field. And so you could pick that officer that can mentor you, or they would pick you. Um, I was lucky enough that uh Colonel Garrett had decided to select me as one of the few. Um, you know, and of course, uh you know, he he did that because he wanted to kind of get the folks he he he was exposed to or he knew myself as Stefan Garcia, um uh, you know, Lou Etienne. Uh we we uh we all kind of went under him under his mentorship program. Um and then like he kind of showed us like, you know, we walked through battle drill, battle drills, what it means to be in the infantry, the day, the day in the life of infantrymen, uh, what it's like to be in the garrison, all that kind of stuff. And at the time, uh Colonel Garrett was a regimental tactical officer. So he was in charge of an entire 1,000 cadets and he was kind of running. Um, so he because he was and he kind of took us as seniors and kind of showed us infantry. Now, every single infantry officer was paired with cadets, you know, everyone had their mentorship. So, but he was a special one in that case because um he later on stayed with me through my entire career and mentored me all the way through until even after I retired. Even today, he still gives me, get he passes knowledge to me and mentors me.

Host 1:39:17

Yeah, when we were talking, I mean, you you know, it sounds like he did the regular mentor stuff, but it sounds like there were times like he went kind of over and be, you know, over and bond. He was he would teach you how to cook. Oh, yeah, that's right. Teach guys like battle drills, what to expect as a lieutenant. Um, what did it mean that you know to have somebody invest that type of time in you?

Chane Jackson 1:39:36

I mean, it meant it meant a lot because uh, you know, at the time, you know, yes, you know, I didn't have really have a father in my life, right? So it kind of kind of helped me kind of see like, hey, this is what the real world is. He showed me what it means to be a good husband, what it means to be a good father, how he took care of his kids. His son later went and became a West Point cadet. Um, his daughter became a teacher, like, you know, um, and at the time, though those his son was only eight years old. Like his son was like eight, his daughter was like nine or ten. Like so they're like little babies. But I mean, I got to see how he fathered them and and and and even even taught them at in their childhood. Um, but it was a great time and experience to one have someone kind of show the ropes and show what it means to to serve, but also what it means to kind of go through life in a in a different light. Um uh that that's kind of what my uncle had done for me in high school because my dad was gone and missing. My uncle kind of filled that void. Um that those two actually met and they got along really great, especially when I graduated. Um, my uncle and and and General Garrett were about the same age, actually, right? So awesome. Uh so they they got a chance to meet, and I was like, these are two two gentlemen in my life that have shaped me and changed me to to who I am today. Um, but yeah, like, no, General Garrett took the time out to show us how to cook chicken marsala, right? I was like, what is you know with the succulent wine sauce? Uh, you know, and he showed us the battle drills and showed us and walked us through them, and and uh he talked about what it means to kind of raise family and kids and how to manage that and and like from his perspective uh and from what he knew. Um, and that that was good. Uh and and I'm not sure if General Garrett knew he was going to become a general later. No, I matter of fact, I know he didn't know that.

Host 1:41:20

I think you I think what you had told me was that I think he was planning to retire, the war kicked off, he and they stood up a new airborne brigade brigade. That's right. He became the brigade commander, eventually a four-star general. And my question would be what what did it mean and what does it mean to you now to have somebody that saw something in you so early in your career?

Chane Jackson 1:41:37

Oh, I mean, you know, it meant a lot. Uh, that even no matter what role he was gonna do, whether he was gonna retire or whether he's gonna stay in, it meant a lot to have someone that have your back and to know that and and and communicate to you what success looks like and to communicate to you that that you will be successful and help guide you, um, which is something that I try to achieve and strive to for those folks that I've exposed myself to like later, especially when I was an instructor and would mentor. Um, one of those folks being Sella Cho, uh, you know, one of my cadets, right? Um, you know, Christian Nettille, Simone Askew. So great, great cadets that I had a chance to kind of touch their lives. And so I want to try to be there for them as well, right? Uh, but it's it is it's it's one of those things where um he he showed me what it means to give back in a different way, right? Yes, you know, I never got a chance to serve under General Garrett, um, uh unfortunately, but um I've always I've always seen him's leadership style and how he is as a leader, and I've tried to mimic that or try to make it my own way, right? Um, which is something that really means a lot, right? Um, but it meant a lot to me to have him believe in me and believe that I would be successful because that helped guide me through. He was there in my ranger school graduation, graduated range school, but not only did I graduate, Lou also graduated with me. So both both our graduations he was there for, right? Now it might have been a coincidence, um, but at the same time, it didn't matter. I was like, he was there. Oh, it's cool. I was like, he was there to see. Almost like having a family member there. Yeah, it was, it was, it was. He was going his way to take command, actually. And I remember seeing him in the red beret, and I was like, What are you about to do? He's like, I'm about to take brigade command. I was like, I got called up. I was like, all right, good luck. And a lot of my friends actually served under him and they went over in the 25th. Um, and it was a rough one. It was a rough one for him and his unit. So I'll let him tell you that story. You know, when you get a chance to talk to him, I'll let he he's got a whole story he'll probably give you.

Host 1:43:37

Super awesome. Well, before before we uh dive into kind of you know your career, your military career, let's take a quick break.

Chane Jackson 1:43:43

Oh, yeah, of course, of course.

Host 1:43:54

Coming back from the break, uh, you know, we were, you know, as we move on um from West Point, which you know I alluded to in the, you know, in your opening, you know, I mean, you graduated West Point in 2004 ranked 14th out of 975 cadets. That's top two percent. How did that feel, especially after struggling so much early on? Oh, you mean graduating 14?

Chane Jackson 1:44:16

You know, I don't I really didn't feel um, you know, I I want to say it was a little bit surreal that they even made it to the finish line, to be honest with you. I remember seeing Mad Star in Vega um and him being like, Smiley, you made it. And because he's actually at the academy now as uh one of the uh drill instructors there, and he's like, I can't believe you you made it. And then uh my roommate from prep school, he did not make it to the academy. He actually went to the Air Force, but he was there for my first salute. Uh and uh again, like it was surreal that it it was happening. There was like a I made it to the finish line. Uh graduating uh 14, I I don't I to me, I feel like I attribute that to like the folks that were around me. Like I attribute that to the folks I helped, I attribute that to the guys that that pushed me. Um I don't really feel like that was something that I personally achieved. I feel like it was the uh uh organizational success. Um and I say that because again, like we talked about all the tutoring, all the things and and the mentorship. Like if it weren't for all that, I would not have made it that far. Um I think those folks showing me how to be a better leader, showing me how to uh how to study in my academics, I feel like that that was success that that they led me to and helped bring me bring me up, um helped lift me up and helped the make me rise above the challenge, right? Um and and I and I I remember guys like Joe Wells, man, like Joe Wells about becoming a Marshall Scholar, Amber Walker, you know, Amber Robb at the time. Like these these folks were folks that I looked up to. I was like, man, I want to be like you, man. Josh Wilson, uh elite basketball player, now CEO of LMI, um, you know, phenomenal, phenomenal individuals that I was surrounded with were the reason why I was 14. Not because I was super smart, not because I showed up and I was highly intelligent, because they they gave me a different side of the world that I would I wouldn't even know. They presented a perspective that I wouldn't know. Um sitting there talking with Myron Tolls at night, uh Russell Burnett, uh Brandon Hawthorne, and then and some of the conversations we had, you know, and some of the challenges they presented to me with the academics or with physical, like, you know, with swimming for crying out loud. Uh getting through that, like I mean, it's so a lot of that was uh them and that team and everyone around me helping me get to where I was successful. So uh yes, uh having the drive and the resilience not to quit is one thing. Um, and and and getting that drive and resilience from guys like Major Hayter, um, you know, getting the mentorship from a General Garrett, Colonel Garrett at the time. But then like, you know, my classmates really being like, hey, you you can be better, you are better, and learning from them is really why I was sitting in that front row. Because I really, to be honest with you, I felt like I didn't deserve to be there. I was like, how the hell did I get up here? Um, but it's definitely when I sat and looked to my left and right, the folks I was sitting next to were the folks I was in class with, the folks that were the ones that said, hey, Chanae, this is how you solve this. This is how you fix this. Or, or it was like, hey, I was I had to do the research to help that my classmate figure out, like, hey, so um, you know, being in that, being in there and sitting there, I felt really proud that we were all doing this thing together. So yeah, yeah, we get our rankings at the end. That helps us get our first assignment and all that kind of nonsense. But it's it's really like, you know, you're you're you become a family. Um, and that family is what you lean on when you're out there on the battlefield.

Host 1:47:49

That's awesome. One of the things I forgot to ask you earlier is you initially wanted to be an aviator and and you even got an opportunity to do an Air Force Academy exchange where you did a whole semester at the Air Force Academy. How do how does that work and and what did that reveal to you?

Chane Jackson 1:48:04

All right, so hey, so that was that was a coincidence. If it wasn't everyone, uh so um I was lucky. Um, I was very fortunate. Um, I was doing my thing as a cadet as my my sophomore year, and I remember um they had already selected all the folks for the Academy Exchange programs and all that. Uh, but then uh a gentleman named Tate Jarrell, and and good on him, was selected for a leadership position as a junior. Um, so he declined to go to Air Force Academy. So I guess I was on the runner-up list. I didn't even know I was like one of the runner-up guys. And so my I remember my uh my tactical officer came to my my room uh and uh he goes, Hey, uh, do you do you want to go to Air Force Academy next year? And I was like, Air Force Academy. Hell yeah. It's my chance to go see about being a becoming a pilot. I want to be a pilot. So I was like, I'm super excited about it. That's a beautiful campus, too. Oh, it's a beautiful campus. Um, and there were some lessons learned when I went there for that. And uh, but uh, you know, he he said, yeah, we well, you know, we had a gentleman gave up the slot, and you you got it if you want to go. Um that's of course that's where I got a chance to hang out with guys like Joe Wells, Sarah Matthews, uh some some real heroes over there, Heather Ritchie, uh, all amazing individuals. Um, Mike Powell, and and and again, these folks were folks I look up to. These guys were super smart, uh, highly intelligent, run circles around me. Um, and so we we go to the academy and exchange. I get a chance of being a glider and I suck at it. Absolutely terrible at flying. I'm like, oh my goodness. I should have played more video games as a child, right? And uh I crash land one of the gliders and they're like, oh my goodness, this dude, you suck so bad. They wouldn't let me solo. They're like, you cannot fly this thing by yourself. And then I had a chance to jump out of a plane. Uh they had Air Force Freefall School. Um now my first jump was not good. I almost died. Like he had to kick me out of the plane. Um, I was scared to jump and I was going head over, you know, you know, I was flipping and I pulled up. Skydiving? Oh, yeah, it was a skydive, it was a free fall. So I jumped, so I was the first, like, oh, this this is the whole, I mean, this is a part of a story of a story, but I I I was always motivated when we're sitting down and getting ready and doing our exercises. And then uh they're like, all right, you're gonna be the first to jump, China. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna be first to jump. Yeah, let's go, let's go. Motivated. We got in the air and they dropped the leaflet out, and I saw that thing fall. I was like, I'm good. I don't want to do this. I said, uh, I'm good. And he's like, no, get in the door. I was like, and you don't want to be a jump refusal because you don't pass the class, right? There's a class, technically speaking. And you get like five jumps. And I put me in the door, and I'm just like scared, and I don't want to stick my head out. He put my head out. I'm like, oh man. He's like, go, and I'm like, no. And then I felt a slight push out the door. I was like, well, I'm fine. Falling. And I was going, I was flipping as I was falling. And I remember just trying to arch real hard. And then the chute came up between my legs and it flipped me over. I landed, got on the ground. I landed real nice too. It was real smooth landing because I was ready for that, right? I came in there, I was like, man, they're gonna kick me out. And the guy comes up. He's like, all right, that can never happen again. You need to jump and land. You understand? And so I did the next four jumps. I made it. And then uh I was like, man, I really like that jumping out of a plane thing. That's pretty cool. Um, so I was like, where can I do more of that?

Host 1:51:33

And Airborne News was I told not in the air Air Force. We fly, we don't jump out of them.

Chane Jackson 1:51:39

And so I realized that flying wasn't my thing, and I was trying to figure out what was gonna be my thing. And uh so that was my next thing, was kind of figure out like what what where do I go to?

Host 1:51:49

You're a big ass dude to be in a pilot to be a pilot too.

Chane Jackson 1:51:52

I wasn't big back then, I wasn't as big, I was small. No, I'm glad I didn't. No, no, I mean, so uh my friends like you know, Wesley, Hunt, um, John James, those guys all became pilots. Felix became a pilot, actually, um, and switched later, but you know, they wound up pursuing that path. But I was like, nah, this is this is not what I wanted.

Host 1:52:12

Wesley Hunt, the congressman, Wesley Hunt?

Chane Jackson 1:52:14

Yeah, that's right. That's right. He's uh he wound up becoming a pilot, and so did uh John James, also congressman. He's a pilot. And then uh Felix Zayus, he's not a congressman, but he's building an airport airport out here in Austin. Um, remember he told you Ranger? He wound up becoming a pilot too. So a lot of guys wound up going that route. I I just I didn't. Um it wasn't it wasn't my path. It just I wasn't good. I knew I wasn't gonna be good at it.

Host 1:52:36

So because you were ranked high, you you got to pick whatever you wanted. You picked infantry, you got Italy, 173rd Airborne. Um, but first you had to go through all your training. What schools did you have to go through?

Chane Jackson 1:52:46

Oh, so I I wound up going to aerosol school, um, airborne school, and uh and ranger school. Uh obviously infantry officer basic course too as well.

Host 1:52:56

So um you get to pick those, or is it like you have to go through those?

Chane Jackson 1:53:00

No, no. So I actually walked into aerosol because I just want to make sure I wanted to get that knocked out of the way right after graduation. So a couple weeks after graduation, I took some time off, walked in on that one. I just I was a walk-in. Um, I remember my instructor, uh, I said something, I remember saying something to one of the cadets. Uh, I was like, man, this is a cream puff aerosol school. This is easy, right? I said aerosol's easy. And he had me running around the formation saying, I am a cream puff. I'm I was like, I'm never gonna say that again. I ran into him later when I was a ranger in a ranger captain uh that instructed later. And he he thought I was gonna be mad at him, but I gave him a big old hug and I said, Hey, I appreciate you having me do that. I learned. Um, but yeah, I wound up going to so I I didn't so the other two schools, like ranger school, I had this pass to go to Italy. Italy is a requirement. Um, and it's funny story. Um when we went through Ranger School, had a couple of my classmates who are phenomenal individuals. Uh, they were they were there for, you know, uh one was uh Dwayne Mantle. He wasn't even there for uh, he was there for as an armor officer or artillery, artillery. And he was coming in as an artillery officer, and he, I don't think his assignment was in Italy, but because he had passed, we were in formation in Florida, and they said, Hey, who's armor or who's uh artillery? You know, guys raise their hand. They said, Who wants to go to Italy? And he raised his hand. And like, I'm going to Italy. He just said, huh? And Jed Richards, another good friend of mine, he you know, both these guys were highly successful, by the way. Um, Jed Richards uh owns like a construction company uh up in uh, I want to say Michigan, but he's doing phenomenal. And uh and he he raised his hand too when they said it for infantry. And they're like, all right, Italy. And he was like, I'm going to Italy, I'm going to Italy. We're just like, let's go, man. We're all excited.

Host 1:54:56

So now you know it's like three classmates that you just graduated Ranger School with, right?

Chane Jackson 1:55:00

Oh, yeah, right. Him, Tate Jarl, Tate went with us, Ari Martin, with like a whole bunch of us, right? And uh, and we're all excited, and we all made it through Ranger School, and we're all going to Italy. And but these guys weren't going initially, right? So they're excited now. They're like, oh, we're we're going. Now Tate and Ari, they were high in the class. They they went, they were gonna go anyway. But Jed and uh Jed and Dwayne, um, I'm not sure you know what where they were in the class. It doesn't matter, but they they got a chance to go to Italy and they were excited. We were all excited, and we were just hugging each other, and we and like, and uh, I'm telling you, after that, we we went off and got in the plane and took off. It was great.

Host 1:55:35

Well, I mean, you went to airborne, air assault, and then you went to ranger school. Those were all back to back.

Chane Jackson 1:55:39

So I went to air assault, air assault, infantry officer basic course, ranger school, and then I went to airborne. I was a leg ranger.

Host 1:55:50

I mean, you show up to ranger school, you you you've you know, you've you've been to West Point, you've been through some training, but you're still kind of newer to the Army as far as like the leadership. Oh, yes. Uh what were your expectations going into that school?

Chane Jackson 1:56:01

Oh, it was scary. Um, I tell everyone going to ranger school was far scarier than going to the Q course. I had not been exposed to that type of uh training or being out in a tactical environment. I knew that um I was a city boy. They're about to put me in the wood line. So I knew it was gonna be some challenges, uh, especially when I heard about the mountains, the mountain, this thing called the mountain phase. Um, so so it was definitely terrifying. The physical part of it in the beginning, no issues. Um, you know, the height, jumping off of the balance beam, all that stuff. I wasn't worried about any of that, right? But you know, going out and doing patrols in the woods, being able to maneuver formations. I thank God for uh the conversations with uh Colonel Garrett um and uh Colonel Ruth, especially. I mean, well, General Garrett and Colonel Ruth, especially before graduating, talking about some of these battle drills because that did come into play when I was out there in the wood line. Um, remembering kind of some of the stuff that they taught me and told me. Uh, but yeah, it was it that was probably far scarier and harder uh for me, as especially in that age, because I hadn't been in the military yet. I hadn't gone to war yet. I hadn't I had no experience at all. Um, so navigating in the dark, in the woods, walking through swamps and stuff was just I was it's just all new to me. Very new. So, I mean, but a challenge. And I wasn't scared of a challenge and I was gonna rise to the challenge, and it's like, hey, this is the thing I gotta do to make it as an instrument, then that this is what I gotta do.

Host 1:57:40

You got a second look at kind of, you know, I don't sugarcoat it, man. You got to deal with some racism in ranger school. Right. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Chane Jackson 1:57:50

Uh, you know, I I had uh I had a few instances in ranger school, but um, especially it was in the Lonega Mountains, uh, where I was uh working as a radio teleoperator. So I wasn't actually getting graded on the patrol, but I was uh a part of the leadership group. And I remember having issues with the radio, and uh one of the instructors, a cadre member, walked up to me and kind of said to me, in front of everybody, you know, hey, you know why you can't fix that radio, right? I was like, oh no, sir, well, why can't I fix the radio? Sorry now, I'm not sure. I was like, is it something am I not high ground enough or what? He's like, it's country black. Interesting. It's like I was like shocked. I was like, well, okay, that's that's how we're gonna approach this. So I was like, well, I don't think I don't think that's the reason why. Uh, but I'm gonna get this radio to work. And so I was able to get it to work, uh, and we we kind of finished that off. Um, but that's okay though. Uh so I I learned because I had I had gone through that experience before, and I think because I had seen that before, I I didn't let it get to me. Um and and no, I did not get through ranger school all in one shot. I I did recycle in in the mountains. Um and rightfully so, it was what it was. But at the same time, um I didn't I didn't quit. I didn't say, hey, just send me home. I'm I said I'm gonna do this again, I'm gonna do it better than the last time. Um, and and I'm not gonna have these issues, and then not gonna worry about what my color of my skin is. Um I'm gonna show them that I can do this and I'm I'm a monster.

Host 1:59:29

Were you the only black dude in Ranger School for that question?

Chane Jackson 1:59:31

No, no, no, no, no, no. No, there's several. There's several of us. Um one one fellow, Brandon Williams, uh, Bo Reynolds, uh quite a few of us, uh, Ricardo Henry. Uh we we were we were all in there together. Uh you know, Ricardo wound up becoming uh the uh uh we call it military intelligence battalion commander for the ranger regiment, actually. Um Brandon, um, we can he he later changed his name to Brandon Grooms. Um he wound up doing phenomenal too as well in in the logistics, but he's a logistician back then, actually. Um and then uh so but all all you know, there were several of us in there together. Um and uh we we had all noticed, you know, some some of those nuances and some of those behaviors, but we all decided that we were gonna push through. Uh we actually were in the recycle program and we went to church. Uh, we would go to church together, and we we created a gospel choir at the church and we sang, oh happy day, and all kinds of stuff. And I remember uh Ricardo would lead us. And we but I mean, but we we we all kind of stuck together as a as an organization, as a unit. Um uh it didn't matter if we were black or white. I think we all didn't see color um in the program. We all saw each other as family and and and and and we didn't care, uh, but we were gonna get through that. We were gonna get through Ranger School no matter what kind of push they gave against us. And so uh we we made it. We made it, all of us.

Host 2:00:56

I know you got recycled in mountains and you went back, and obviously you ended up you know passing. And I I think you told me Ricardo Henry, he recycled like four times in mountain fish.

Chane Jackson 2:01:04

Oh, yeah, yeah. He was the mountain man.

Host 2:01:06

I think you guys ended up running each other at uh ranger regiment or something like that.

Chane Jackson 2:01:12

Yeah, no, that's right. That's right. He so he wound up going to Ranger Regiment uh uh early on. Um so went up went to Ranger Regiment together. Uh he wound up going uh and and going to the 375. Uh Kit Aboho was down there at 375, who Kit Aboho is now the regiment ranger regimental commander. Um so uh you know uh they were there together, and I think Ricardo wound up going to the support battalion because he switched branches to MI while he was there. Um and I went to 275 at the same time. Um so but but yeah, my my Ranger school uh that ranger school experience definitely stuck to both of us. We're we we we we still talk all the time today. We call each other stuff. Um he's still in, and I'm I'm now retired, but he's still in doing the thing. And so I I give him a call, see how he's doing and stuff, and I see a kid at AUSA and everything.

Host 2:02:02

You told me too that ranger school made you strong for Afghanistan. Why was that?

Chane Jackson 2:02:06

You know, and I I tell a lot of people, you know, so yes, um, I did experience racism when I was in ranger school and all that and that's okay, right? And I learned how to deal with that. Uh it's not okay that it happened, but it is I learned how to suffer through that. I think it's God, it was God's opportunity. Well, I thank God for the opportunity to recycle because I wasn't comfortable in the mountains. I wasn't comfortable in the cold, I wasn't comfortable dealing with uh cold weather conditions, and putting me in that environment and having me redo that prepared me for later on being in Afghanistan where we had to walk through the mountains in the snow. Um, where uh Captain Joe de Racy, who now became Colonel Joe de Racing, he retired. Um, and he's an instructor now. Um, well, he's a he's a professor now um at um Columbia. Um where we where he like he he'd give us some impossible missions, knowing that we could do it. But my comfort level in the mountains was because I recycled in ranger school. I wasn't I wasn't scared of the cold. I wasn't worried about how to how to tie in, how to rope in, how to to to to to cross the you know different terrain, uh that that that hard terrain. Um I was I was very comfortable navigating in the mountains of Afghanistan. So, and I think I thank God for that opportunity. And I and I say to folks, like, it sucked to do it. And boy, I was miserable and I did not want to go back. Uh but uh if I had not done that, would I have been as prepared in the firefights that we had in the mountains, uh running it and traversing the terrain? No, I wouldn't have. Um, I think I would have been very uncomfortable. Um, and my my team and my platoon would have noticed. But because I was comfortable, because I was, I, you know, I still think, you know, some of those folks I served with, like Tony LeBron, Nathan, um uh Sergeant Bryant, who became first Sergeant Bryant, um, all these guys, you know, they they they could look to me and say, hey, look, you opportunity is all right. He's not doing too bad. He's he's making it through.

Host 2:04:19

How did Ranger School teach you to handle failure? Because you know, you had failed a couple times.

Chane Jackson 2:04:24

Oh, you know, um, you know, I I don't think Ranger School taught me to handle failure. I think I learned failure at West Point. I think that really taught me how to handle extreme failure, right? Um, I think because of what I learned at West Point, I was able to carry that through Ranger School. Because to me, failing patrol, it sucked. I remember that first patrol I failed, um, setting up a linear ambush. I was a security uh squad leader. Um, half of my squad fell asleep. You know, I'll yeah, it it is what it is, right? Sleep the but that's okay. Um, so because I and I learned, I was like, well, that's um, you know, when I went through the patrol uh where Brandon was uh platoon leader and I was a platoon sergeant, um, we went through the patrol and uh and uh we had we got recocked because we we we we didn't do it right. Um we got too close to the objective. Then they gave us a second shot. Um, and then I definitely messed it up. Uh well I didn't mess it up, but I told Brandon, I said, hey, you need assault because of the terrain downhill versus uphill because you just can't see where you're going. You might shoot the support fire, and he did the opposite. He supported, he went uphill versus downhill. And so we they failed us on that, and not to his fault. I mean, I should I should explain to him a little better. Um, they said, hey, um, you know, in the mountains fades of a ranger school, they give you blueberry pancakes. And uh they they don't tell you if you fail or if you pass. But my instructor uh told me, he said, I hope you like blueberry pancakes. Let me know I was gonna be there again. I was like, man, a tear came out of my mind. I was like, man, I'm gonna be back. I'm not gonna make it. But but it was okay because the second time I went through, they had the waiting period for the next class to show up. So I wound up doing uh the training for like a month where I got to be in the mountains and learning some more. And they taught us in the interim, which was really great. And I think that kind of broke some of those barriers too with us and the cadre, where the cadre could see, like, okay, you guys really do care. Like, and so we were going out on patrols and stuff, and they were taking us out on their own and like showing us things to do. We just kind of had to wait. And then when that next class came in, we were we were pushing hard. Um, so it it did, it did show me what failure looks like from the military perspective of like being out in combat, what it means to fail, and it showed me like what to do to to to prevent that. Also, what it means to to encourage your team to get beyond it or that to push your team so that doesn't happen. So I think Ranger School does teach you, especially as a young leader, that that backbone and that that that like, hey, this is our limits, guys. We're not there yet. We got to push ourselves because we we can do this. Uh you we got the Mongolian whore coming at us, we can take them, right? Um, and because you know you can do it because you just saw and you went through the training where you didn't eat, you didn't sleep, you didn't do all these things, right? And you're like, oh man, I I I know I can make it through this, right? Um, and I I learned one of the things that I do need and I do require is sleep. Food is not as as essential as sleep is, but I do love a nice little pound cake when I can't. Yeah. It's still delicious, man.

Host 2:07:41

Even all these years later.

Chane Jackson 2:07:42

Listen.

Host 2:07:44

Uh you graduate ranger school, you finish all your training, and you show up in Vincenza, Italy, 2005. The 173rd has already deployed to Afghanistan. Right. What happens?

Chane Jackson 2:07:53

Yeah, so I show up and I improcess and out process in the same week. I was like, oh man. They're like, hey, uh, go ahead and process here, do all these things, get yourself a house and all this stuff. They're like, all right, here's your outprocessing paperwork. We're gonna send you right to the box. I'm like, what? Right to the box. So they send us to Grafenvere, Germany for a little bit. We learn, we train in Germany. Um, I remember uh Jed, Jed and I are together, or we're going through the training. It's like, oh man, now he's going to a different battalion than I'm going to, and Ari's going to a different battalion, and so is Tate. And we're all sitting there going through the thing, and we're like, man, we're about to be in this thing. And um, I think Ari and Tate get there a little earlier, so they take off because they already had done airborne school, so they take off a little bit sooner than us. Um, and uh they're already in the fight, right? And we're we're about to join. And I remember showing up, uh, and this is and I and I Mario Cockroach will tell you this story. He loves this telling the story. I remember going to Afghanistan, I meet a guy named Prince Turner. Prince and I, he's the he's the logistician, he's in he's in Bagram, and he's giving me all my equipment. And he's like, Oh man, you're fresh off the boat, right? And and and and Prince, uh, he and I wound up becoming really, really great friends uh to this day. He's in Tampa now, he's retired, but he wound up becoming Sergeant Major uh the G4 uh for 82nd Airborne. Oh no, 18th Airborne Corps, right? Uh so uh so I meet Prince and you know he's just like he hands me all this gear and he's like, good luck, son, sends me on this helicopter and I go down to Oregon. And uh that's where uh I step off the plane and I meet you know Joe Jeracey and Mario D. Cockrell. And uh and Joe's like, all right, this is our new cap, this is our new lieutenant, uh, you know, coming out of West Point, top of the class, this is that next thing. And then Mario immediately recognizes me. And he's like, he stops for a second, said this cadet, this guy looks familiar. How do I know him? And I remember a conversation, I remember him coming to talk to the cadets about their branches, right before we're about to pick our branches. And I walked up to him and I was like, armor, infantry, armor, infantry, should I do armor, infantry, you know? And uh and I'm asking him, like, what's what's what's what's better, which one's which? And uh he's just like, look, son, you're gonna figure it out. And he like kind of coaches me. And uh, and he's just coming to West Point, like on a uh like uh one of those visits where they have like uh folks coming to talk about the army and what they're seeing out there in the force. And this was like when they're trying to expose people, like what's going on with the war, right? Uh so like it's like you were talking about the culture kind of changing. They're they're trying to bring folks in and say, hey, they've been to combat. And so Mario had been one of those guys that's been in combat. So now here I am seeing him in combat. And he's like, oh man, it's that lieutenant. That's crazy. And it's so that first night, I get in and uh the and and I get told, like I was told um to report in to so Joe's Joe's walking around. I was supposed to go to take one of his platoons, so he walks me to the S3, and he's like, All right, you're gonna go do whatever the S3, whatever. And um, he's like, We're gonna go meet the battalion commander, this guy, um uh uh yeah, uh Timothy P. McGuire. And so I go in there, Colonel McGuire, and he's like, hey sir, you know, Lieutenant Jackson reporting his order, you know. He's like, All right, we're gonna put you on staff for a little bit, we're gonna have you learn, we're gonna have you kind of see what how we run operations here, and then after a little bit, maybe a month or two, put you out there in the force and get you out there in one of the units. Of course, that's what he says. Joe comes picking me back up, like Captain Geracy, right? This guy's like Captain America, right? He comes in, he's he's dragging me. I'm like, yo, sir, sir, let's go, let's go. I'm walking around with him, and I'm thinking he's maybe showing me the basis. He stops off and there's a platoon standing in formation. I'm like, man, this looks kind of and Tony LeBron Nathan standing there, turns around, stands, is at the ready, you know, like at attention. I'm just like, why is he standing like that? So I walk in front of him. I guess I'm like, walk over, give him a salute. He walks away, salutes back, walks away. Like, oh. And I give my first, I give my platoon speech. It's terrible, right? It's horrible. Hello, man, blah, blah, blah. I'm gonna be a platoon leader, I'm probably gonna be on staff for a little bit.

Host 2:12:13

Did anybody tell you that you were gonna take that platoon?

Chane Jackson 2:12:16

No. Well, I don't have Don had mentioned it. So Colonel DeRacy had mentioned it, but he had not mentioned that it was gonna happen that day. Because you know, Colonel McGuire said it was gonna happen for like it's gonna be a while. Um, so I was like, oh man. This this isn't this isn't good. I was like, so I was like, oh well, maybe they just maybe he wants me to introduce myself because I'll be coming in later, is what I thought. So I get back to the talk and everything, and he's walking me around still. And then we go on to this planning cycle. So I'm thinking I'm planning with Joe and the rest of the platoon leaders and platoon sergeants for the upcoming mission because I'm a part of the three shop. I don't think I'm actually, so they're like, they have me role playing as, you know, second. I'm like, oh, okay. All right. Okay. So we're still going through and we're playing all night. So we come out in the morning, and then the brigade commanders there. Um, it was the 82nd Brigade Commander, so it's a different brigade commander. Our brigade commander was actually in uh Kanahar, but we had a different guy there, and he's sitting there, and I'm just like, okay, so this is a real, this is this is a real deal. Like, hey, China, you're gonna brief, you know, your your portion. And of course, I come in there and start briefing my portion. I've got everything memorized in here, right? But I start stepping all over this terrain model. I'm stepping on the buildings, I'm kicking stuff, and I'm looking like King Kong, man. And and and and Mario Cockell just starts rolling. He's just like, this guy is lifting him with these feet. And he always will tell the story. Like he tells everybody that story. And I was just like, I don't know what I'm doing. And so uh that night, like, you know, we we get done with the planning, we we brief everyone. I'm like, man, I haven't slept yet. Next thing you know, we're kidding up and we're getting on the helicopter. And you're and you're like, I'm supposed to be a staff dude. I said, what kind of staff is this nigga?

Host 2:14:04

Yeah, dude.

Chane Jackson 2:14:05

I'm on this helicopter, Tony's in there with me, and the whole platoon, we're all heading out towards the border of Pakistan. And I'm just like, man, this is not. And we're supposed to set up a blocking position, just hold nine. And uh, of course, we we we get the flying out. And you've been in country for 24 hours at this point. I think 48 by this point, I just didn't sleep. 48 hours. So so we're we're so we're hovering, uh, and and I'm and I remember like um and the police are communicating to me. We're we're hovering there, and the drop our HLZ they were supposed to land in, it it he said he can't touch down. He said the trees are too high, it wasn't what they expected, too much brush. We get we gotta get out. So maybe we can land somewhere else. And I was like, I was like, no, we gotta get out of this thing. So I I I take my kit, put on my gear, and we're, I mean, we're ways off the ground. And I run off the back and I jump until I got there. And then and then the rest of a two follows too, too, like a 20-foot drop. Oh man, that's probably like 15 feet or so. I don't know, I don't know, but it was high. It was way too high. Um, and I remember Tony jumps out. Now, Tony's 37 at the time. I'm like 23, 24, or something. He comes out and we start marching, you know, we start walking our way, you know, we're in formation. Not marching, but like uh in, you know, in a in our uh unit, our uh we start our movement and we stop and halt. And I remember Tony walks up to me, he grabs me, you know, he grabs my gear. He says, Sir, if you ever do that again, I'm gonna kill you. I was like, I was like, Tony, what are you talking about? He said, next time, there was a better place to land, just about 20 feet. That was just tell him to go move at 20 feet. That's the worst. I was like, I couldn't see it. He said, take a look. He said, Oh my goodness, you're gonna kill us. So after that, you know, um, and that that first that first mission, uh, had my first firefight and everything. Uh that day, that evening, um uh total chaos. Uh, you know, the the XO had to come and kind of kind of save the day on that one where I accidentally started calling artillery on ourselves. I didn't even know what I was doing. I was like, oh, I told them our position, I shouldn't have. And the next thing you know, they're dropping artillery near us. It's like, oh shoot, and I had to chest fire, and XO took off the radio, and I was just like brand new, didn't know anything about anything. And it was, it was, it was a it was a and I and I dropped my kit, had to put my kit back. It was a whole thing, whole nine.

Host 2:16:32

Um yeah, I remember you start that patrol and you lose your first squad leader. Yeah, it just disappears. It's like a break in contact. Like, what did you do for that?

Chane Jackson 2:16:40

Oh, yeah, so so we had a break in contact. Um uh it was this is hilarious, right? So I I go back to my ranger school days, right? Breaking contact. I lose uh the guy's name was Sarge Goki. I lose Goki. I'm like, oh snap. We we lost him. Like he he's out there somewhere. Don't know where he's at. But he's he's you know, I was like, shoot, Goki, where you at? Like, oh my God, where are you going? So we had that breaking contact, like, shoot, we gotta keep moving. Um, we're drifting towards Pakistan, where we should be going towards Afghanistan at the moment. I had to kind of change and had to take up to the front. Uh kind of had a reorient. Uh then your machine gunner didn't get away from the cover. The machine gunner got tired. He got tired, so I had to take the machine gun from. I was getting there. I had to take the machine gun from him. So we start humping by it, by it, by the luck of the draw, we run into Goki and his squad. We we we re re uh reconfigure the the formation. We get to the blocking position we were supposed to be, and we set ourselves up. And it was like it was total mayhem and chaos at first mission. I was like, man, I'm brand new.

Host 2:17:47

What did uh what did uh what did the platoon turn say when he saw you with the 240?

Chane Jackson 2:17:53

Oh oh yeah, he was pissed. Uh so he he's like, sir, you can't have the 240. If we have contact, look, what's gonna happen to you? You're gonna skip there, shit to 240. You need to be making decisions. I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't want him to fall out. I can help him out. So I was like, I got to carry the 240, and I was a bigger fella. So I was like, I thought I could handle it. And he's like, oh my goodness. And he grabbed me by the neck and he's like, Oh, you need to listen. And Tony had a lot of great lessons. Um, and and and I almost take anything from him because I tell you, uh, there was a lot that I learned from Tony that that I don't think I would ever figure it out myself. And it made me a better leader. Like, you know, I understood what he meant, like, you know, having to be able to be in the position to make the decisions. You can't be stuck in a machine gun, but you can get on it if you need to, right? Um, and first starting actually wound up doing that on that same day or a day later, first aren't wound up getting up on the 50 cal and and and and and taking down some enemy because the the the machine gunner got shot. And so Mario D got up there and started assaulting through, right? Uh because they were they were overwhelmed. And so you gotta do what you got to do. So don't be afraid to pick up the weapon if you need to. But at the same time, while you're in the configuration where you can make decisions, you got to be able to make those decisions, which she was totally right. And he taught me how to be that leader, how to stop, step back, make decisions you need to make. Same thing with Joe Jacy. Joe would have like these lessons that he'll learn from Ranger Regiment and talk through the tactics with us as platoon leaders. And he wasn't just a company commander, like, you know, oh, you guys, I'm your leader. Like he would mentor us and guide us and show us, like, hey, we're gonna do these missions. Let me tell you what makes sense to me, what makes sense to how I think. And and then he say, What do you think about this? Where are you gonna position yourself? And then uh, and like, you know, when we're doing raids, uh, a lot of times in the schoolhouse, they would tell you, like, you got to be on assault position versus support by fire because you got to be in the fight in the maneuver. But in some instances, especially when doing a raid, it was better and more convenient for me to step back and be in support by fire element so I could make decisions on on how to maneuver and how to orient, because we have so many assets and things in the air where you have a lot of things happening at once. And then, of course, you know, when need be, be in the assault position when you need to be, right? Um, so it depends on where that decisive point is. And he always used to talk to us about where the decisive point is and what makes the most sense.

Host 2:20:16

That that first tick you get in, uh, you know, you lose Gokie, you guys pick him back up, you know, you guys start taking contact, you realize they're dropping mortars on you. Um what's going through your head? You know, you're in this, you everything you've done has led up to this, right? You've all the training, all the different schools, and now you're in it for real. Um, what what's going through your brain, if you can remember?

Chane Jackson 2:20:39

I mean, oh yeah, I remember it like it was yesterday. I tried not to remember. Yeah. Uh I remember I was mad at Tony. Tony told me when I land got off the plane, I met him. He said, Hey, don't worry about it. We don't really get into firefights like you see in Iraq. That's just TV. He said, It's nothing. We aren't getting any gunfights here. And I said, And then after that first firefight, I go up to Tony. I said, Tony, I thought you told me we weren't getting into firefights out here. He goes, Oh, I lied to you, so you be calm. I didn't want you freaking out. He said, You seen a little jittery coming off the plane. So I was all pissed off. I was like, oh man. So uh, so a part of me was a little pissed off at Tony because he lied to me. The other part was like, Well, I mean, we are we are where we are right now, so let's let's make it happen. But um, a little freaked out because I I didn't expect it, I didn't expect that. Um, and then uh at the same time, you know, yes, you think about the training and what you what you what you learned. Um, I I didn't do any of it the first time. That's probably what my issue was. I was like, oh man, I need I got I got a I got a course correct here. Um so you you kind of go into bad habits. Um, and then you know, of course, uh as the firefight kind of went on, like I made better decisions going in. And then you start relying on that training and what you went through. But uh, you know, I was brand new to the brand new to that scene, right? It was like, oh man, this is the first time I've ever been in one of these. Um so it was it was quite scary, right? It was like scary at the same time. I was angry at the same time, I was like, shoot, we gotta fire back at the enemy. Um, and and that was our first time being in contact. Now, of course, that was day one. Um, Goki uh Goki was the first to get cut in contact. Um, then we all the rest of us got in contact, especially when the mortars started dropping in. Um, so we we we we didn't take any casualties, thank God, for that day. Um, but I definitely know one of the things that kind of led to that contact was there there was a decision point that had to be made right before. So um uh a gentleman was walking through that area and saw us, and I think he had a child with him. And so I went down with the platoon leader, well not between leader, I was the platoon leader, uh, with the platoon sergeant, and we went to go to set the situation. Now we could have detained said individual, so we we weren't our position would not be revealed. But we decided, and I talked to the XO, he called it back to the commander, and and and Joe made the decision to kind of let him go because he was a civilian, he was a non-hostile. But I think that's why how they kind of knew where our position was, and then that's how we started getting mortared on. Maybe I don't know. I I do think it was the right decision to to to release the kid and his dad.

Host 2:23:19

You uh you guys get through that tick, things start settling down, you're exhausted. I'm like, you haven't slept in like two, three days.

Chane Jackson 2:23:24

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Host 2:23:25

So you you climb in your sleeping bag, and then all of a sudden, I think a couple rounds come off, and Tony comes and wakes you up out of your sleeping bag.

Chane Jackson 2:23:33

No, so so so they pull us off the perimeter. Um, and we we wind up going to the batayan, uh, like, you know, this is a batayan like uh area. Um so we're all like consolidated, and some elements are still out. And at this point, I'm sleeping in my body armor. I don't, I don't even take it off. Like, I'm just like, I'm just gonna keep it on. And so I hear the gunfire. You know, I'm I'm like, oh man, come on, man. And Tony comes in, he's shaking my bag, and I'm like, what's up, what's up, what's up, what's up? Sorry, nigga, what do you need? What do you need? He's like, he's like, hey, sir, we're in a firefight, we gotta go. I was like, and so he unzips my bag and I'm full kidding. And he's just like, man, I was ready to go. I was like, all right, let's go. And at that point, it just, I just got used to it. And so we're we're driving around and we're in the Humvee. I'm like, it's so it's funny, like we're out and uh we're still on the mission, and I'm sleeping on the Humvee at this point. Like, you know, we're doing rotations, sleeping on the Humvee. I remember looking up at the stars and I said, I said, and I said to Tony, I said, Tony, am I gonna die out here, man? He's taking, he said, sir, snap out of it.

Host 2:24:43

He's thinking we fine. That's funny, man. What did it mean to you to have a stable NCO? The NCO core is something that I think is very unique to the US military. Um, and it's this relationship. It's funny, even though I'm older and I'm retarded as well, and you know, I I have friends that were officers, and we still like have that officer NCO band. It's like it's almost like baked into the relationships, even if I didn't serve with the dudes.

Chane Jackson 2:25:06

Yeah.

Host 2:25:06

Uh talk to me about how you know how important that is and why that makes our military extremely unique.

Chane Jackson 2:25:14

You know, I I think the relationship one is because uh they are the backbone of the army, right? Um, I think without Tony, my development and my future Sergeant McDowell later in the Ranger Regiment, um, you know, these guys all help get you to where you are today, right? But you know, when you're a young lieutenant, young officer, you know, I had a company commander once telling me, like, you know, you know, we don't the army doesn't need lieutenants, right? I said, but but that's not why you're there, right? You're you are there because you are getting mentored and you're learning from these guys who have all kinds of experience. But you know, being close to them and and obviously that relationship changes as you go to special forces versus being in the conventional army, right? But even the conventional army, these guys have been there, they've done it. Um, they know what they know all about the ins and outs of everything you you got going on. And like, and and and of course, like that relationship is solid. Like, like I told you, to this day, Prince and I still talk, and Tony and I, we we still communicate. It's not like they just disappear in in the in the abyss, like they're still a part of the family. When I went to the AUSA, they were like, Hey, you gonna go to the 173rd reunion? I was like, You guys know I was only in the 173rd for like 18 months. Wasn't there that long? I was like, they're like, Oh yeah, we didn't even think about it. Like, yeah, because they just you're just a part of the family. It's it's a brotherhood, it's a family. Um, and and and they're not it's not an officer NCO thing. After a while, it's your brother thing, right? Um, when I see when I see Brian, like I I don't see, I don't see or Mario. Like I see Mario, he's at the booth at AUSA. We hug each other like we like like we're we're brothers. Like it's it's like, hey, we were in the same, we're in the thick of it. Now, mind you, he was starved major, you know, you know, when I was still a lieutenant, a captain, right? And he's running around running whole organizations, but still like we're family, right? Um, and and a lot of those guys too, uh make me proud having served with them, but they they they they're gonna do, they're doing a majority of the work, they're getting stuff done. And they're telling you what what right looks like a lot of times. They're like, hey, I don't think that's a good idea, sir. And you and you gotta listen to them because they got the experience. Now, sometimes you you you gotta go with your gut and sometimes not, but for the most part, like, you know, when you learn to lean on your NCO core to help you help make decisions to help you understand what the domain and what they've seen, because a lot of times their experience will be far vast than you can even think about. Um you're gonna do well. Like, I mean, you you can make it a team environment, and that's how I run all my organizations today. Like, run it like we're a team, like hey, it's you know, hey, yeah, I'm sure I'm in charge, but um, and I'll make the final decision when it comes down to it. But I'm gonna listen to my people, right? And and and like they will know and they will have advice and they will they have experience, and their experience is gonna help shape the organization, and you want to have that kind of culture too, right? So if you help your NCO shape the culture in the right way, um, then you will have a dynamic organization.

Host 2:28:11

I love that, man. Um so you're about two months in to that deployment to Afghanistan with the 173rd. Uh, you know, you're you're a platoon leader and an infantry platoon. Uh you got school and perez in your platoon, and they get shot one day. Can you walk us through that day and what happened?

Chane Jackson 2:28:28

Oh man, that was uh man, that was a that was a rough one. Um so you know, I go back to that day, and it's funny because uh the two there was two, so the the the S3 and the XO uh had come out to talk to us prior to the mission. I'm not sure where Colonel McGuire was, but he I think he was in a meeting or something, but he came out for the mission and said, Hey, you know, you guys, we haven't had contact on a few of these raids in a while. You know, keep an eye out, you know, you know, don't get complacent. Um and of course, at that point, you know, the guys had been on several of these missions and there were a couple dry holes, and we just all got really complacent. Uh, we didn't know things were starting to heat up, but I think they knew because uh they knew we all the Intel was saying it's starting to heat up, but we just weren't paying attention. We're just young, you just know we're just like, oh, whatever. Like Intel says that we're nothing's gonna happen, right? Um, so we're really complacent uh going out. Um at least I had that in my mind.

Host 2:29:25

I was like, and just so the listeners know, the S3 is normally your operation officer that really kind of drives the unit, whether at the battalion or the company level, that's really who's running the operations. That's kind of where who's driving your battle spouse and pretty much giving you the platoon whatever mission that you're gonna be on.

Chane Jackson 2:29:40

No, no, both those guys are two-star generals right now, actually. Uh yeah. Um, but uh either way, uh they said, hey, you need to be like you need to be ready. Um so we get on the bird and we're flying down. Um now this is in southern southeast Afghanistan. Um and so we're flying down to Southeast Afghanistan. Um we go in and gunfire already, like we're in the helicopter already receiving gunfire coming in through the the back of the chinook. Um I remember we took a cook with us, um, a young lady, and uh we're gonna use her to help interpret to help with the uh visitor site exploitation with females. And uh she was also she was very overwhelmed. And I remember like just running off the back of the helicopter um and just just trying to run to the position where we could you know dominate with fires and and get into where we could see where this in the where these folks were, right? Um they're obviously like already entrenched somewhere in the caved area, but you know, Joe was taking heavy fire, you know, Captain De Racey at the time. Um I was taking some heavy fire, and then we kind of ran and positioned ourselves so we could kind of maneuver around that. So then um, you know, I'm I'm like on a knee and I've got a couple soldiers like hunkered down because they're they're scared. And uh, dragging them by their body armor to kind of get them to like, hey, we gotta, we gotta move, man. We gotta get we can't just stay, we send ducks out here, man. We gotta move to cover, and uh, so I got us to some cover and I'm on a knee. Are are are are you guys is this at night or during the day? So this it started off at night. I want to say it started off at night. I think this is the I think it started off at night. Uh, you know, you it's good, it's a good point. It started off at night. And we even had a reporting crew with us at the time. So they're they're taking video footage and and they were camera, they had a camera crew with it. So I had a camera crew like following me at the time. Um, so I'm like on the knee moving, maneuvering. Um, and I and I and we were fighting, and I think it breaks in the day at the at this moment. So I think we insert in the in like in the middle, like early, early in the morning, it breaks into day. We weren't expecting it to be this long, obviously. Um and then so I I I like I have to I have to kind of cut off the enemy at some point. Um uh Captain Rixy is doing gun runs um with the uh Warthogs over uh the the heavy fire. Um and I and I make the call to uh land um our our aerial reaction force, which you know I report to him, lands it. I shouldn't have probably done that because they were we were still under heavy fire. This is like a QRF? Like, yeah, we had yeah, but within our platoon, right? So I had a I had a part of my platoon element was the and that was where Tony was with that element. And right when they land the helicopter, Carasquelo and Peredes get shot. Bow bow. Like, I'm like, oh snap, right? Um, so I was like, man, that was probably a good spot to put him. I was like, oh goodness. So we're running, like trying to try to get there, and we get overwhelmed um with machine gun fire. And I remember uh uh it wasn't clear just yet, but Tony was calling me. I start making the nine line, I start passing the line line, and I make the decision to hey, we get we gotta get him in there because I don't want these guys to bleed out out here. Um wasn't a good decision because the Medevac got hit pretty heavily. But they were able to get everybody out. Tony got out with them, and uh Sergeant Burlew was out there out there by himself. Um and and a couple other guys were just out there by themselves as just uh kind of one team. Um and uh Tony Tony was able to get the guys out, which you know, thank God for Tony. He was able to drag them out, get them out, he had them all patched up and got them out of there, even though they were on this heavy fire, and they were able to get back to a base and get treated, right? Yeah, because they were firing discas at you, weren't they? Uh yeah, so yeah, so so this one, yeah, I don't think it might have been, yeah. Yeah, I think so. So this that's why we got we got stopped. I think it was because it was discus. Um either way, it it hadn't mat it didn't matter. Um, but I shouldn't have landed the the Medevac in that location. We should have moved the bodies to move them to a different location, but I didn't want to take the risk of them losing the life. So it's just so I so Joe let me make the call on that, and I did. And it wasn't a good decision um because we could have lost the Medevac too, which would have been really bad. But but the Medevac was able to get out. Um Sarmbrello uh at the end of the day wound up firing his 203. A 203 is a grenade launcher, and normally you have to self-load it and you fire the round. Self-load, fire the round, self-load, fire the round. Takes a little bit to do that. He fired that thing like it was what do you call it? Mark 19 was automatic, right? So he was firing that so fast to get those guys out. Whatever element of team he had. I remember seeing uh he had a Carl Gustav, or no, was it an AT4 hooked up to one of the uh assault bags and they shot it and that thing exploded and they got thrown back and he was still through like and they're getting those guys out. Um I wrote I wrote him up for a Valor Award after that. Uh I want to say it was either a silver star or bronze star V, but uh definitely wrote him up for a Valor Award after that. Um Now, here's the downside. So we get done with the mission. Now, the guy who replaced me in the mission is a guy named Martin Peters. Marty Peters is a classmate of mine from West Point. And I remember seeing him come out. He came out that evening because we we left in the evening. So we were there all day, right? And uh and I gave him a big hug. I was like, I'm so glad you're here. So tired, man. And it was good to see my classmate come out. He relieved me. He was like, Chanay, man, good to see you, bro. You're looking good. Oh God, Marty, thanks. Um, Marty's he's an excellent, excellent individual, a great man. He came in, brought his platoon out, replaced us. It was great. And we went back. Now, the downside of that is when we got back, um, that's where the brigade commander, like, oh, and I'm sure he's getting flaked from the CG. It came down on on uh uh on Timothy P um and uh General McGuire later, right? And he was just like, hey, who made the decision to land that Medevac? You know, and it cost us, you know, you know, millions and all that stuff, and he's pissed. And uh Colonel McGuire just took the heat. He just said, I did. And I was like, I made that decision. Like the lieutenant. And he's like, I made the decision. I put the Medevac down. Um, we had to get our boys out, and I made decision. And the the the brigade commander was pissed, and uh, and he's just like, Whoa, you know, that's just not the right thing to do. You know, we gotta blah blah blah. He said, after everyone, when everybody leaves, you and I are gonna talk, right? So we all leave. He talks to him one-on-one, comes out of the room, he he he grabs me by the shoulder and he says, Hey, Twane, let's not do that again, okay? He's like, let's, let's, let's get him out, let's get him to a safe position. We want the Medevac to land where they're not gonna receive fire, okay? And I was like, Yes, sir. And he's like, Well, you're good. We're got we got this. And and that was it. And I was like, Man, did you just take that heat round for me, man? And he had done that a couple times. Uh, so so he knew I was new. Um, and he knew I was new to uh uh to being in the army. He's knew I was new as a leader, and uh it was great, it was a blessing to see uh a leader like him take my back and Joe too. I mean, Joe, Joe was ready to take that round too as well. He would have taken it if if if Timothy P didn't. And both of those two gentlemen, I have so much respect for. Um, especially uh later on seeing them, and of course, like I I still I emailed uh General Maguire, you know, and and I and I emailed uh uh Joe and uh and and it's it's just like all great, great, great men, great warriors, and really great leaders, man. Um so it's definitely something I kind of shaped my leadership philosophies on later on.

Host 2:37:54

Yeah, how did that change the way you think about leadership? Here you are as a young lieutenant, you've gone through the crucible of testing, but now you're going through the test of combat. And you know, you're early on, right? Um, and you didn't get to train with this unit. You basically showed up deployed, and two days later you're in a gunfight, uh, you know, and then a couple months later, you know, you're I know that whole we don't even have time to go through that entire deployment because of the entire deployment, you guys got it on. But what how did that really shape your idea of leadership early on? Because that's phenomenal, it's an inspiring story.

Chane Jackson 2:38:26

I mean, you know, these these guys, man, like not just not just the the officers, but the enlisted, like these, these I feel like they were some of the best in the army. I I was lucky that I I landed on such a amazing organization where everybody that I talked to and touched was was going to be future leaders in the army. Um, and I and I think about it, like uh, you know, Sergeant Holland, you know, these guys became the 18th Airborne Corps Sergeant Major, right? I and these are folks that I'm sitting here and exposed to, and they're teaching me and talking to me, but they're they're in and of their own right legends. They're gonna be legends and uh for some other reason. Some of them want to be in special forces with me. Um, Sergeant Butterfield, right, who wanted to become a Sergeant Major Butterfield in Special Forces, right? Uh, like he was in a scalpel team with me, and he was just an E5 back then, right? Uh got his E6. And like, but these are guys that I would train with and learn um and be exposed to. But the thing about it, the thing that they taught me the most was you know, you will have success and you will have failures on your missions. You will think things will happen. Um, and you got to learn how to push through, persevere, and support those around you. Um, the support that I got from my leadership, both officer enlisted, was beyond reproach. Um, Mario D. Cockrell, Sergeant Brooks, um, yeah, Sergeant Brooks used to call me Butters. Um, he's like, hey, you butters, right? Oh butter bar and tell. But but it was in good faith. But you know, at the same time, he would grab me by the neck and show me what it means to, you know, deploy motors and how to do it correctly and uh would mentor me too. Like, and you know what? Jonathan Brooks was an amazing, amazing individual. He was tough, he was a he was a tough cookie. Uh, but you know, he called me butters, but he he knew he knew how to mentor and develop. Same thing with Tony. And Tony and Brooks were like, you know, they were inseparable. They were like best of friends, they're always together. So it was great to be have those two guys mentoring me uh and showing me like, hey, like it was with Sergeant Holland coming in there too, be like, hey, Lieutenant, you're all jacked up. Let me show you how to do this. Um, all those guys every day, every day. And the lieutenants that were surrounded with, I mean, these guys have a lot more experience than I was. All of them kept showing me the ropes and showing me everything that I I can do and and and showing me what it means to lead in combat. Now, in the garrison, I had no idea what to do in the garrison, right? But I was like, in the combat, I was like, all right, I know what I I'm starting to shape and know what I need to do here. I know what right looks like, I know what success looks like, I know how to get my guys to a mission, I know how to plan a mission, and and more and more uh uh staying around these guys, the better and better I got. Um which which helped me later on, right, uh a lot. Um, but yeah, yeah. No, I thought I think I think it was it was it was all them uh uh showing me like, hey, uh it's gonna be hard, it's gonna suck, but we can do this and we're gonna do it together. And I got your back and you get mine, right? Um and the leaders showed me that in a different way, like I told you with with Timothy P, he showed me that in one way, whereas the NCO showed me a different way, right? Where when we're going through and we're clearing something, Tom Bryan was right there behind my back. Like he like in it, like you know, uh, I'm in the building, I'm in there clearing, I'm doing my thing, and boom, like, oh shoot, oh, you got that dude? Thank God, right? And those guys, and that's and that, and that was the thing. Like it, it that's that was their way of being like, hey, I got your back, sir. Don't worry. You keep doing what you need to do on the radio, you keep maneuvering troops, we'll take care of you, right? And so that's that that had that filled my spirits, man, just knowing that they had that and knowing that I had them, right? Like when something bad happened, I hey, I'm gonna get you out. I'm gonna get you out.

Host 2:42:14

Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say, I mean, for the rest of your career, you you never lost a guy. You made decisions to bring your boys out, even if they got shot to shit. How did that day with with Colonel uh you know change your your calculus on risk?

Chane Jackson 2:42:30

I mean I was willing to take risk, but I also was willing to risk whatever I needed to to get my troops out. Um, you know, I was fortunate that I never lost anyone. I personally never lost anyone as as their direct leader. I was there when we suffered losses. So I don't want to say that um I uh my decisions uh made it so that we could make it out. Uh I was just fortunate that I had made some good decisions to get my team out or when I was a leader. No, I was a part of a team or of a part of teams where we did lose people. Um lots. Um, so um, and of course, I might have been a part of that decision calculus too as well. Um so I, you know, and and those and those and those memories like they haunt me on this on some time, on some days, right? Um and and like, you know, yeah, so we we we have had some instances and I've been around that where it's been really, really tough. Really, really tough.

Host 2:43:28

We're definitely gonna talk about one here before too long.

Chane Jackson 2:43:31

Oh, yeah, okay, we're gonna get into one. I was hoping not to.

Host 2:43:37

Um there was also a second time where uh Colonel McGuire took a took a heat round for you. Oh uh, you know, you're you know, you were escorting the Afghan governor. You gotta tell that story, man. It's just too good not to tell.

Chane Jackson 2:43:52

I didn't want to tell that one. I think I knew you were gonna get into that one. So uh yeah, I it could have gotten a lot of trouble for this one. Um so um, so my job or the mission was to escort the Paktica governor back to uh his pro back to his like headquarters in Sharona. So I was in Oregon in Sharona, it's a little bit of a distance. Uh so we had to get him through the past. Um he was a little bit of a he was a little bit hard-headed. Uh whether you believe it or not, uh, you know, uh he was a little tough, he was hard to work with. Uh so we, you know, we we were escorting him, and at and on occasion I had to do some clearance operations where I had to go up on the high ground, make sure everything was clear, go make sure, you know, because I didn't want to walk into a linear ambush or some type of ambush or walk into an ID. So I was very deliberate about the mission and I took very took it very seriously. I probably more so than normal because I like I knew his vehicle could only take but so much, and if he got ambushed and killed, that would be bad. So we get to a point in the past, about halfway, and he hops out of his truck, he's pissed off at me and comes up, grab me, and stuff. He's like, hey, what are you doing? Blah, blah, what's taking all day? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's just loud at the mouth. He said, We're gonna take off, we're gonna go there, forget you, blah, blah. And that's the worst thing that could happen. So, of course, as a young lieutenant, I did, as a young, as a young lieutenant, probably the wrong thing to do. Um, I grabbed my rifle. It's already on my shoulder, it's on my chest. You know, I just load, I just, I, you know, I just charge it up real good. I said, hey sir, I need you to get back in your vehicle and be quiet, please. And they're just very gentle, right? He didn't take too fun of that. Um, but we still, but he's got back in his truck. He shut his mouth, and we we drive back to the, we get the stronger. He's looking at it explicitly. So I get back and he's like, I'm telling the president of Afghanistan that you did this. I'm like, oh goodness. So I get back to the base and I'm like, oh man. Um I'm gonna relieve for this one. Probably, probably a little bit, I probably took a little too far. I wasn't gonna hurt the guy, but you know, I just I need to get back in his truck. And uh I could have been shooting at the enemy, for instance, right? But anyway, so uh, so Colonel McGuire gets a call from the from the higher-ups, and I'm sure he gets a call from the the two-star. And uh he gets a car, gets a call, uh, gets gets Joe, and he's like, hey, I need to bring Chanae on in here and uh walk in. Joe's like, hey, uh, they're telling me that you threaten the Pactica governor? That's not exactly what happened, but maybe, yeah. Not in a lie. I was like, it's honest, right? I get in there and I see uh Colonel McGuire and he's like, hey, Chanae, did you threaten the life of the Pactica governor? And I was like, sir, I'm sorry. I fucked up. I threatened his life. I hey I I charged my rifle, told him to get back in the truck. I needed to get back safe. I couldn't have him dying on me. It's just it's the whole thing. And I wasn't trying to rush, you know, I was just trying to, and he goes, Listen, I know he's an asshole. I got it. Don't let it happen again, please. He said, we can't be charging our rifles and things. He said, understood? I said, yes, sir. Rather than that, sir. All right, out of my office. That's funny, but but I mean, but you know, I it it it showed me one thing. Like he he truly did have my back on a lot of things. And so I was like, man, he's a he's a good leader, man. Because I I would have let I was like, I don't even know if I would have done that for me.

Host 2:47:24

Did you ever teach and keep in touch with him through the years?

Chane Jackson 2:47:27

Oh yes. Oh yes, yes, of course.

Host 2:47:28

I think he retired as a what, two or three-star job.

Chane Jackson 2:47:30

Uh so he retired as a two-star out of Europe. Um, and Joe, Joe retired as a lieutenant colonel, um, and and and wound up helping folks with PTSD that he's passionate about that, and and wound up teaching. Um now he's I think he's an instructor at Columbia, actually, Columbia University. Um, so so they both they both are still in it to win it. Um, I think uh Timothy's out there uh working on board of directors and all kinds of different boards and stuff, but he's he's he's running around doing consulting and everything now, too. Yeah, so we talked about that. Yeah, I talked to him. That's funny.

Host 2:48:01

Any other uh any other stories or engagements from that that deployment that really stuck out in your mind?

Chane Jackson 2:48:07

Oh man, uh I think what sticks out's the losses. Um uh just just just the folks, especially when I was during that deployment, so even my classmates that wound up dying in Iraq, but uh Sergeant Campbell wound up dying in a mortar platoon. Uh they got hit at night. Um, and unfortunately um it's one of the days I remember it's like a dark day for uh Colonel McGuire. I remember that day we wanted to send out a QRF and wanted to send out a uh a force and get the Medevac out there, and uh Sergeant Campbell wanted to have an internal bleeding and wound up dying because it was uh red conditions, it was too dark for the medevac or for the anything to fly out. And they had to drive back after they got ambushed. And so um, you know, this just things like that were happening out there that uh they just just kind of just haunt me sometimes because it's like, you know, seeing that young E6 um at 23 years old. Um you know, uh another one where uh you know it's it's tough. I remember I was still brand new. Um had two young folks uh doing quick draw with their pistols, and they accidentally sh one of the one of the buddies shot his friend in the head and had to go clean up his brains. This is in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, right? Oh man, this this is tough. Um it was tough. Um, you know, and just just one of those day like dark days, like, and I remember how hard it hit Colonel McGuire. I remember how hard it hit you know Joe and how hard it hit me. Like it was just like you know, these and the these two young folks and can you imagine being a soldier that did that too? Oh no, I know, I know. He he was messed up. He was messed up real bad. And um, so we we had there was a lot of stuff like that, and guys getting hit in ambushes and uh just just a just a lot of heavy losses. Uh but I mean, but at the same time, like you know, didn't hear about my classmates not making like Benjamin Britt, Dennis Zelensky, Garrison Avery, and I'm over here in Afghanistan, and and I didn't even know Garrison had I mean I didn't know uh uh Bach Amos had even died until I was in Iraq and I saw his photo when I was in the Ranger Regiment like show up. And so like hearing about some of those guys who were so passionate about the infantry and being in in the fight, and then like uh guys I went through the training with and guys that want to be special forces. I think this is one of the reasons why I went special forces because of them, you know. I wanted to give it a shot. Um, and and those guys didn't make it, right? Didn't make it to even get a chance to be a first lieutenant or a captain and uh even get a shot at the title. Um, but just just I remember all those memories kind of come back. And Dennis and I went to Ranger School together where he was my ranger buddy, he helped me out drastically. Like dude was a stud. Um Dennis just knew all the knots and everything and like the patrolling, and he's just he's just good at it. Um he was a swimmer, he was on a swim team, but I don't know how you're so damn good at it. I was like, man, you're so good. And I and I would go to him and like, hey, what do I do with this? Like, oh I got you, Jack. No worries. Um, he always had my back too in the training. And uh um, but you know, when he died in Afghanistan or in Iraq, that that hit me pretty hard. Uh hit me pretty hard. So I mean, a lot a lot of a lot of my classmates and stuff, you know, started like going and we we I think our class suffered the most casualties overseas. Um so I mean that that deployment, I remember that being the first one uh was like the first time that I just started started experiencing like heavy loss, like going to memorials um or even missing missing them for folks that that I that I served with or that I knew. Um and good friends too, you know, so it was just kind of tough.

Host 2:51:51

You know, you get back from that deployment, you're a young man, you're a leader. Um now you've seen some things in life. How did you process that at such a young age?

Chane Jackson 2:51:59

I didn't. And that was the problem. I didn't process it. Um and I I just tried to block it and try to forget about it and try to move on. Kind of went radio silent for a little bit. Um, just kept training harder, uh knowing I was gonna go back. You know, uh, I think that's where where we as a military uh have changed, um, at least in at least from my perspective. Where now mental health is a thing and we we do work and and treat it. Um, but I didn't, and so I just let it bottle up. Um on to the next, right? Uh just not gonna think about that. I mean, it's to me, uh, when I got back, that was just a moment in time where it was a blip. Like I just don't, I don't remember. I try not to, right? Put it in the box so you can see.

Host 2:52:47

You're still early in your career and the GWAT's not slowing down.

Chane Jackson 2:52:50

Oh, it's not so, yeah, that's right. I put it in the box, it's early in my career. Um, you know, even thinking about picking up somebody's brains, I just I can't process that. I just couldn't. Um, seeing guys getting shot, I just couldn't process it. I mean, it's not it's not something where you're just like, oh yeah, I'm used to it. I mean, it's like you, I don't think you ever can get used to that feeling or that notion.

Host 2:53:09

As a platoon leader, um, how long are you in Afghanistan?

Chane Jackson 2:53:13

Nine months, a year? No, they were there for a year. I got there probably what, 10 months I had in there, 10 months or so? So I got there two months already, they were already in a rotation already, so they were already in it. And I got there two months in, I think.

Host 2:53:23

How do you start processing battle fatigue on long deployments with guys that are getting in sustained engagements? How do you process that as a leader? Um, you know, to help your guys to keep pushing.

Chane Jackson 2:53:36

You know, I will tell you, um, initially I didn't know, I didn't have an answer for that. Um, later on, I learned like, hey, you can see signs where guys are getting battlefield fatigue. One, you know, they're a little quick on the trigger, um, a little too quick. You're like, hey man, that was you, you just that's you don't shoot that person. Um, and I'll go through one of those a little bit later. But it's just you you learn to monitor and watch it to have sl to have those conversations, but not in a way, in a demeaning way or demoralizing way, or like you don't, but like in a way to say, hey man, um, I gotta pull you off the line, man. Like, we just need you just need a break. You just need to take some time. Um, because you you you having some issues. Um, also picking the the right missions, um, like having to calm that stuff down too. Um, and talking to your leadership like, hey, my guys are they're they've gone through it, and being honest and saying, I don't think they're ready to go take this next one. You might want to pass this to the and so I mean, so I did that like when I got to my team, my ODA, I was able to be have that maturity to have that conversation with uh the battalion commander or the SODAF commander, as they call it, uh Special Operations Task Force commander. Um, and that was a Marine at the time, uh uh guy named uh General Brooks, or Colonel Brooks, but he became General Brooks. Um, and and I was like, hey, my guys are battle for fatigue. I I don't, I don't recommend, I recommend we not do this just yet. We need to give this a little time because even though I know the target is a target-rich environment for you, um, we we need to give these guys a moment. Um, you know, just get them, get them, get them right. Uh and then he was like, okay, let's let's let's figure this out. And like and we worked through it, right? But you gotta have that maturity to to sit back and see like your guys are you see what the conditions your guys are in. And you have to accept that condition. Uh and I and I I saw that in some of the senior leaders that I I've noticed, like, you know, General Sega was one of we talked about um our old commandant, um, he went to Hawaii. Um, I can't remember the guy's name, but um, and he Olson, General Olson, and he went to Hawaii and then he he told uh Congress that his unit wasn't ready, uh, that wasn't ready to deploy. They still needed training and they still need to get uh get geared up for the 25th at the time. So uh seeing that kind of stuff from very senior leaders, like I I can't be afraid to say it as a junior leader. Like, hey, my guys are they're they're they're high speed, but right now ain't it. They they they're they're hitting, they're not hitting all cylinders. We need to take some, we need to take a moment. Um uh no, I wouldn't I wouldn't not accept the mission. If if we had to, obviously I'd do it. Sure. And I would talk to my guys ahead of time and make sure they were ready for it. If somebody wasn't, if they weren't in the mind space, or if my team sergeant told me, like, hey, if Tommy came to me and said, hey, sir, they ain't they ain't in the right headspace right now, I'm pulling them off. I'm pulling them off, right? And and that's what we did. And we was like, hey, we get we got to take care of our guys. Right now, you're gonna stay in the rear, we're gonna knock out this mission, and we'll be one less guy. Um, but that one less guy, he would get that that he's getting that battlefield fatigue, he would have he would take a day of rest or whatever he needed, and he could rejoin us later, you know.

Host 2:56:44

Super important. I think sometimes that that often gets lost. Um, and you don't always have that option in combat, but when you do, it's it's nice to hear leadership step, you know, stepping up because there's a lot of officers. I mean, not you know, you hear the stories where they're you know trying to. Overperform to achieve the next rank, right? You know, at the suffering of the unit. Um, and so it's good to hear the other side of that coin. Uh, you come back from that deployment, uh, you're only home for what, six, I think six months, and then you you volunteer to go to the ranger regiment.

Chane Jackson 2:57:14

How did that happen, or how did that come in your oh well, I mean, I looked up the Joe and and uh Timothy P and several other leaders within our organization, all of them came from Ranger Regiment. And I was like, man, I want to be like these guys, man. These are guys I I I love these guys and respect these guys. So um General Garrett had been in the ranger regiment as well. And so I was like, man, they ranged regiment produces some high-speed hoo-as, right? So I was like, I want to I want to go join the ranks of these guys and want to be one of these, uh, one of these gentlemen that know what they're doing out here on the battlefield. And not saying the other guys didn't know. I mean, I'm just saying, but this is what I saw. This is like what was in front of me. Um, and these were guys that I looked up to. I'm like, man, these these are some heavy hitters out here. Um, and I was like, man, I'm gonna go test the waters and see if I can make it. So both myself and Ari went down and uh went to to what they call at the time rope, but now it's RASP, uh, Ranger Assessment Selection Program. Um back then it was Ranger Officer Officer Program, but it was RASP. Um so we went down there. Um man, I went I went through the ringer, um, went through all the challenges and the changes, and I remember uh I I don't know if I told you about that. Did I tell you about the board panel interview we had?

Host 2:58:26

So we can you kind of explain? I mean, we've talked about I've had Rangers on the podcast before, but not, I don't think I've had any officers that led over there. Can you tell, can you tell a little bit about what's different when you go through the officer, you know, rope or rasp, whatever it is. Is there a difference for a leadership?

Chane Jackson 2:58:43

So it's very professional. Um, there's not a lot of hazing and yelling going on. Um, it's really like they're they're they're telling you what to do, and and you just you just go do it, right? Um they're giving you, they're assessing you, they're seeing where you are, um, and they're just trying to see where your limits are, right? But it's very professional. The cadre is professional with you. They they respect you as a leader, to like, hey, you you are uh, you know, a senior NCO or uh a lieutenant captain, whatever. Um, but then they're not they're not trying to break you. Um, this the stuff that you do may break you when you're running in body armor and you're going through clearances, but you know, like you know, make sure you can you can follow instructions um and you can do the task at hand and you know how to think. So they're gonna challenge you with some thinking exercises and things, and I want to give away what is all the details and rasp, but at the end you do a board. Um, and that board's gonna assess you who you are holistically. Um, and they they even pull your ranger uh school packet. They do, they do, they pull your ranger school packets. They know all about what you did at ranger school too. So you're gonna hear that, right? Because they can just go down the street and get that uh from the ranger school house, right? So that's also part of the regiment, right? Ranger school, right? So, so uh they they they're able to get those records, and so uh you'll go to the board, and so my board was uh so a couple things. So, one, the psychologist talked to me before going into the ranger board and was like, hey, we did our whole interview and discussion, and he says, Hey man, I I've noticed like you want to go to regiment, but he's like, Man, you you don't really seem like the profile that we normally send a regiment. He's like, You seem more like one of those SF profiles I normally interview, like a special forces guy. And I told him, I said, Yeah, but I want to go to regiment because I want to be like a ranger. You know, he's like, But yeah, man, he's your personality. He's like, you know, you're not really a good, he's like, I'm not really sure. What was it? You know, I was very extroverted, outgoing, like, you know, a smile, like, you know, just not typical of what he sees that that's a better fit in that organization, which which I agree. I can I concur. He was right. Um, when I went to Special Forces, uh, it was like a perfect fit. I fit right in. Um, because the work ethic of a ranger and a special forces individual is the same. The drive is the same. Um, but the the the mannerisms, the characteristics uh, you know, externally are a little bit different, right? Um not not to say it's a bad thing, uh, but it's it's it's it's just just how they are, right? Just two different types of personalities. Like uh, in which you have to be as a special forces guy versus being like a ranger. Like a ranger, you know, is is is quiet to himself, gets it done, you know, has this like you know, quietness, but like this um carries himself in a way like I know what the fuck I'm doing, right? Whereas me, I'm just I'll tell you straight up, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, hey, I don't know how to do that. Like, you show me how to do that? Like, I'm not afraid to say that. And then he's like, whoa, that's not kind of like, you know, that's not typically how rangers do it. That's not how they do business, right? Especially in their leadership kind of. But he said, well, you you know, you you'll he said, but you'll be okay. Because he because he he saw a lot of other characteristics that didn't match with with the rangers. Like I told you, that this very similar. Um, there is a lot of overlap in the different types of persons in each organization. So like I'm I'm saying, like, I'm not saying what I'm saying is you could probably take a ranger, slap him in a special forces team, he'd be okay. And you can slap a special forces guy in a ranger regiment and he'd be fine, right? Um now, will he stick out like a sore thumb? Hell yeah, because he'll be loud, happy, and like, dude, yo, whoa, whoa, whoa. Shh, quiet here. Whereas the ranger will be like kind of stoic, like, you know, kind of like that Viking in SF, and like you got to be a little more outgoing because that's you gotta be out there and the people they buy with and through, right? So it's a little different, right? Um anyway, so going back to that, so he was like, yeah, but we'll we'll see. So I go to the board, and mind you, um, Ari comes back in from his board and uh he talks about some of the questions. Now, they didn't tell us that we weren't supposed to talk about the questions before the board or or talk about what we talked, what was asked in the board. But but he didn't know that. None of us knew that. So he talked about it, him, a guy, a friend of mine named Tony. We're we're just all like, and I'm I'm just overhearing. I'm not even paying attention to what Ari's talking about because I'm actually just overhearing the conversation because I'm actually focused. I'm about to go up, right? But I do hear what he's asking, like, you know, they ask him some questions. I'm like, all right, I know the answer to these. Now I don't look up anything because you don't have a computer or whatever. And we didn't have the phones back then, right? So I don't look up any of these answers. So I go in there and they ask me the questions and I answer them perfectly. And they're like, whoa, whoa, you cheated. I'm like, whoa, what are you talking about? Like, whoa, man. Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, hey, you cheated. You got the answers on the board, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh my God. And they and they just start giving me hell, right? I'm like, oh shoot, I'm not gonna make it. Oh my God. And uh they're pissed. They kick me out of the boardroom. They're like, and they're like, we're gonna call the category, we're gonna see if you're even lying too, because then they thought I was lying, but the whole not being told. And I was like, man, I didn't lie, man. I swear to God, I didn't lie. I didn't know I wasn't told that. And they call up the instructor, and the instructor goes, oh shoot, guys, I forgot to tell him. Fatal, a fatal error. Of course, that that that starts me off on a bad note with the leadership and ranger regiment, obviously. Because now they think like, oh man, this dude is uh so uh so I go to so I go to my first unit and like uh and my battalion commander, uh General Carrilla, uh, he starts off, he's just like, he's just like, hey, well, now Colonel Corill back then, he he already done trust me. He's like, oh man, I don't know about this lieutenant. Like, you heard about your board, right? Like, oh man, I'm starting off on a bad note already. But it but it was good though, because uh uh again, I had a chance to go back in there, you know, they they asked me a whole different line of questions where I wasn't as sharp on those because I've been to combat a bunch. Um, so I was like, you know, I kind of struggled with them. And they were like, okay, so you you didn't cheat. All right, so you don't know all the answers. I was like, okay. Because I because the rest of the questions, I still knew some of it, but I didn't know everything. Um, and so it was like, they were like, okay, all right, we know you didn't cheat. Okay, fine. Like, because I was like, dang, you guys, you asked me the questions I know related to combat. I know. I mean, I was trained by Joe Jeracey and Timothy McGuire. I I know these answers. Now the now the other stuff, I was like, I was a little shaky on it. So they're like, okay, we see. You guys obviously you didn't cheat on everything, right? Or you didn't cheat at all. So um, so then uh, and then uh so then I wanted to go into my first, you know, going to the second rated battalion. And, you know, of course, uh General uh Colonel Carilla kind of had a little stink eye on me from the from his back office, like I'm watching you, kind of which I didn't want. But it was good though.

Host 3:05:36

Yeah, I mean, Colonel Carrillo later, General Carillo, he just retired, I think, a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago from St. Congress. You're in Iraq and you show up to the battalion. That's the first thing he tells you.

Chane Jackson 3:05:46

You talking about when I showed up the battalion?

Host 3:05:47

Yeah.

Chane Jackson 3:05:48

About the whole uh board thing?

Host 3:05:50

Maybe you weren't in Iraq when you told me that you said, but I think when you initially told Adam, I mean, he he basically said that you were starting at the bottom and you know, that kind of accused you of Oh yeah, no, yeah.

Chane Jackson 3:06:01

Well, yeah, that's what the whole that's what I was talking about. Like there's the whole board thing. Uh so so you kind of like, hey, like he's keeping an eye on me. Um definitely uh he's just like he's just like, you know, you're you're you're at the bottom of the barrel here. Uh he's like, because you know, you you gotta work your way up, you know, because because of what he had heard about from the board, thinking that I had cheated on the board or whatever. But he's like, but you you snuck through and uh, you know, for the grace of the for the grace of whoever. But um, and also one of the things too, I was supposed to be going to range regiment with one of the company commanders from the 173rd, but he dropped out and decided to go back to Comedy Command, uh, a guy named uh Captain Bostick. Unfortunately, so so I do think a part of there was a part of Colonel Corilla, and it's just a natural, he's a human, right? Where he associated with me with him, where he felt betrayed by him, I think. Um, and I'm just I'm just saying that. Don't quote me on that. But I'm I feel like there was a little bit of that where he's like, because Bossick was supposed to come. I was coming with Bossic. We were coming together, and we're supposed to go to RASP together. Um, but Bossic decided to stay in the 173rd. Now, God rest Bosic, so he did die at that next rotation with the 173rd. Um, but he was a good man nonetheless, and so he he was one of the guys I also looked up to when I was in the 173rd, but he never he never came over uh to ranger regiment. And he was like, Oh, you're gonna do well, China, don't worry. But he he wound up getting a second command in uh 173rd that he wasn't promised to command in regiment because you know no one's ever promised to command a regiment. That's how it works. Like you you you get promised an opportunity to serve and you're there to serve. If you get a platoon or company, good on you, but no one's guaranteed, right? Because it's your second chance at it, right? So, but he was guaranteed a second command and he wanted to take that in 173rd. So I do think there was a part of that, was a part of like his little, hey, like I I'm watching you kind of thing.

Host 3:07:58

You get to your pl you get to your platoon. Who's your platoon sergeant?

Chane Jackson 3:08:02

Oh, yeah. So when I get to my platoon, uh this guy named Jeremiah Congdon, he did not like me at all. But nonetheless, the our first meeting, uh, he said, man, you're you're not gonna make it here. That's what he tells me. First, first meeting at the gate. I don't I don't know exactly what drove him to say that. Um, whether it's how I looked or whether it's how I behaved, or maybe maybe it's cutting my mannerisms and behaviors. Um, but he just told me that I was not gonna be successful in that platoon or in in that mission or at all. Um and um I was like, well, that's all right. I'm still gonna do our initial counseling packet and we're gonna talk, which he did not like. Uh he was not a fan of a counseling or me doing counseling. And to me, I didn't treat counseling with a senior non-commissioned officer as me telling them how to do their job, but it was a part of a shaping process. One, getting feedback from them on how to do it properly, and two, um, an opportunity to kind of tell them what my expectations are and then to shape how to communicate those expectations in the correct way to a senior leader, right? Um, so to me, it was a learning opportunity. I'd done it several times. I'd already been a platoon leader for with Tony, LeBron, Nathan. I had been a platoon leader with scouts. Um, so this is my my second go at it, right? Um, and so getting in there and and like, or third go at it, really, third or fourth, right? I was like, hey, like I'm not, I'm not gonna shy away from this because I know this is a part of my learning and it's a part of us bec bonding and gelling as a team and kind of shaping ourselves a team. He didn't necessarily see it that way. Uh, neither did the company commander uh uh Nick Fuller. Um he was like, oh man, you shouldn't be counseling him. He's been around for so long, he should be telling you what to do. And I said, Well, this is a chance for him to tell me what to do, right? Um, I didn't take it as uh a bad thing, I took it as a a positive thing for uh the relationship between the two of us, right? Um, but that was a rough deployment. Um uh, you know, we we had Armadi Um and Fallujah, and uh we were out there doing the thing. Now, one of the folks that I got a chance to serve with uh that during that rotation uh is a guy named Commander Howard, Wyman Howard. Uh and Wyman was, man, he was a he was a great guy, man. He still is a great guy. Yeah, he wanted to become in the Sox Synth commander. Uh and uh and actually became an all-of-uh commander for all of NSW, right? But Wyman and I had a chance to work together, and uh getting to know him was a blessing because he was creative in everything that he did. Uh he was very, very, very intelligent. Um but he also he mentored me quite a bit. Um he he would have little talks with me and be like, hey, I see, I see, I see as a struggle there. How how you doing? Like, and he and he kind of kept me abreast. And so um having him there uh was was encouragement and enlightenment too, as well. Um and Wyman, like he he never let up either, man. He he always kept me, he always helped me to the standard and like pushed me. Um so it was good. Um, you know, obviously, even though my challenges with Nick and Jeremiah were where they were, um, you know, having him there as that that constant support, and of course he was a naval academy grad, so we talked smack that on that too. Um, you know, I was like, hey, I don't even know how you guys even continue to win this football game, but you know, but I was like, because you're cheating. Cheaters. But you know, we have the go army beat navy kind of conversation. And of course, when the Army Navy football game came on, we were just we're getting after each other, so it was it was good. Um, and I think that was the run where we had a 14-year, they had a 14-year run or 13-year run. We won. Uh, yeah, but then we finally won later. But but that at the moment in time, they it was just like maybe a a three or four-year run. So uh, you know, I still was able to talk a little smack, you know.

Host 3:11:55

I mean, I remember you told me your company commander in the regiment was a was a prior service guy who didn't think lieutenants belonged in the army, only captains and above. What was his leadership style like?

Chane Jackson 3:12:05

Oh, it was it was rough um working with Nick. Um, you know, he and I say this because, you know, he's he's a good man, and I know he his intentions were were well. Um, but you know, I I his experience had shaped him in a different way, where obviously where his experience with officers was a little different than what most had experienced, right? But, you know, uh, you know, me being so young and and coming in there, um, and and of course, like I probably wasn't even meeting his standard, what he thought would be a great platoon leader. And and and and and of course, you know, having all the experience that he had when he probably was a platoon leader was he was probably phenomenal, right? Um, but yeah, it was it was rough because uh him and the the first serent didn't they did not have my back. Um, and that was the first time I had been in experience, like now I my leadership don't they don't get they don't got me they don't got my six. I'm like, oh man. And like he he pushed me pretty hard. Um, you know, I'm not sure if it was, you know, trying to see if I would break or to see if I would rise to the challenge, but I and I continue to do uh the tasks that were given to me. Um but you know, you know, turned out like um things didn't work out. Uh they wound up uh uh you know they they they they they as uh that coming to command leadership did not like me at all. Um and to their detriment later on, they wound up like you know falling over and falling to the wayside anyway, um, as a leadership team. Um but you know, one of the things is they they had set me up kind of like, you know, so we had this exercise um in um in Washington State, uh Yakima training center. And uh we were set up with this exercise, and and in this exercise we were supposed to go do like whatever kind of raid and you know the new sergeant major was gonna be watching over us and kind of seeing us execute on this mission, you know, whatever it was. Um, and so one of the challenges was uh I got called into a leadership huddle right before the exercise. And uh with the company commander. I was like, oh shoot. And I was about to, you know, make sure my team was good, make sure we're all good going out. And uh the first time I went in and changed kind of the plan with my team, but didn't tell me. So I I show up, we go out and execute, and I look like uh I look like uh an idiot out there. I'm like, man, what with you know, everyone's doing stuff. I'm like, I have no idea what's going on. And I'm about to we get done and I'm about to just get into my guys like what the hell was that, right? Like we had never executed like that before. And um before I get a chance to, the sergeant major like pulls me into the van and with the XO and uh and he's like, hey, uh you you you obviously don't know what you're doing out there, you suck, blah, blah, blah, you don't care, uh, you're not giving the effort. And I was like, Whoa, that's not the case. Um, and you're just not a good fit for our organization. I was like, man, damn, that fucking sucks. Um, so I was like, Well, that's that's gonna be rough. And I get a chance to talk to my guys. I talked to my guys later, I was like, what the hell happened? Then they told me, like, oh sir, they changed the thing, they changed everything on us. And uh maybe they're trying to see how I was gonna react. I don't know. So that gets back to the battalion commander, obviously, General Carrilla. Um, so I go into his office and he tells me, he's like, Hey, you're my second to bottom platoon leader in the organization. I'm like, man, that sucks. Because here I was coming from 173rd where I was top two to now here as like, you know, top two in the raid, where now I'm like bottom two in the range resident. I'm like, man, this is terrible, right? So I'm like, look, maybe I need to find something else. And he's like, you know, what do you think it is? Do you think it's because you're black? And I was like, sir, I don't know. You tell me what you think it is. I mean, I don't think that's it. I mean, I think they just don't like me down there. I don't know. Like, I have no idea. And I'm sure he was really trying to source an answer. He was trying to figure out, like, really what was the issue? Should he get rid of me? Should he send me on my way? Because range regiment, you don't have to be there, right? So uh Colonel Krilla had to make a choice. Um, so I was like, I started, I mean, maybe I need to go take command elsewhere. And I talked to this guy, Harry Tannell. Uh, and Harry is man, he's a brigade commander, striker unit. Um, I talked to General Garrett too at the time. And um, General Garrett's like, man, you gotta stick it out. You gotta stay in the regiment and just stick it out. Whatever job they give you, just knock it out, knock it out of the ballpark. I talked to Harry Tunnell. Harry's like, Sean A, don't worry about it. He's like, I would love to have you take one of my companies. I'll take you afterwards. Go knock it out of the ballpark. Go out there, whatever job they give you, take whatever they give you. I said, sir, but I'm done with this, man. I'm ready to put my beret down. I remember uh even in the conversation with Joan Carillo, I was like, look, here's my beret, like I'm done. Like, I don't like and he's like, I'll take that thing back, go out, get out of my office. You know, we just we just we just like we just had like an emotional engagement. Do you think Corillo had it out for you? No, I don't think he did. Um, to be honest with you, I don't think he did. I think he's just trying to figure out what to do with this young young leader that uh that was struggling. Um in his eyes, I was struggling at the time, right? Because uh that's what he's getting reported. That's what his leadership is telling him. Right. So either way, um uh I go to Harry, Harry says, stick it out. I go back, sit down with Carilla one more time. You know, Colonel Carilla and I have an engagement. And um this time, you know, he's like, all right, look, I got I got a company that's gonna take it. It's the echo company, support company. I'm like, support company. You mean logistics? Like, I remember what Harry Tennell told me, I remember what General Garrett had told me, um, and like stick it out. And I was like, all right, I'll take it. Whatever you want me to do, I'll do it. Saluted, I was not happy, begrudgingly, I left, right? Um turned out the best thing that ever happened to me. Um, because one of the best things ever happened to me, because two things. I I I got mentored uh by two high-speed officers um that that you know, uh Captain Burke and a guy named Colonel LeBrec. Um no, Captain LeBrec then, uh, but both those guys wanted a uh uh uh Ricky Albreton, uh the these three individuals wanted to mentor me and teach me logistics. Now, mind you, Ricky was a logistician. Uh Captain Burke came in, he was not a logistician, he was actually an infantry guy, but we figured it out, right? And uh going in there, learning how to run logistics for a battalion and supporting entire battalion for deployments on missions, being alongside captains and company commanders when they're out there on the mission um helped to shape me so I would be a better team leader as a detachment commander. And like it, I didn't know it at the time, but I was learning so much about how to maneuver, how To like about the back end of things that now is really shaping me. Like I knew how to maneuver on the battlefield, but now I knew how to like understand what has to be what how to support that maneuver, how to support and sustainability, like understanding what that means for the mission and like understanding like how to do all those coordinating actions in order to be successful as an organization at a higher level made me a vastly better as a team leader. Like it made me like so the point where they they chose me to be the XO for the Special Forces uh battalion versus me coming in, you know, battalion XO versus as a captain, right? Because I understood how to coordinate adjacent all that all the things. Um and I understood the deploy units and all that stuff. So that makes a huge difference in terms of my development. Um so, you know, yes, but did it seem like a punishment at the time? Yes, it did. Did it seem like, you know, uh Colonel Carrilla had it out for me at the time? Yeah, it did, right? But at the end of the day, he didn't. He actually he bettered me. Now, flip of that, right? Fast forward, I'm on the deployment, I'm making things happen for the regiment, I'm making things happen for the battalion. Um, I'm out there executing without zero funds, getting them transportation, getting them your resources they need without money in my pocket or MIPRA money had gotten delayed for some reason. Jumping through hoops, working day and night, you know, as a as a support platoon leader at the time. And that sergeant major comes up to me, Sergeant Major Legg was the guy's name, and he says to me, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you worked so hard and then you really push yourself so hard. He said, like, you you're you're a great leader, you're doing outstanding. And of course, I grudgingly told him, Don't never talk to me again. I was like, I appreciate that, but I want to be in the infantry. But you know what?

Host 3:21:02

You told him uh from now on you refer to me as sir. You salute me when you walk by.

Chane Jackson 3:21:08

I was upset, I was upset. But but but uh, you know, I do thank him and I thank uh Corilla um for the opportunity because you know what? They didn't know they were setting me up for success later. Um, so you know, as a as a detachment commander, coming in, setting up the medal, setting up all, like getting my team set up for success, like, and and then being able to plan out our training cycles, knowing where to get the resources and knowing how to get everything set lined up so that we trained to the mission that we wanted to execute on, was all because I was a logistician in that in that unit. And I thank Sergeant Major Leg and I thanked Colonel Guerrilla for doing that. Yes, it it didn't seem at the time, it seemed like a punishment at the time, but later it became a gift. Now, Colonel Odom, uh General Odom, these guys all become generals, right? Uh Colonel So you know more generals dude than half of Congress. I think it's a lot of uh so General Odom uh wound up becoming the battalion commander for Ranger Regiment, and he said to me, uh, do you want to come back and be company commander for support company? And I don't think he realized, maybe he did. I was like, I'm not a support leader, I'm a logistician. I'm I'm an infantry officer officer. So we kind of laughed. I told him, said, Yes, sir, I want to go to selection and go uh be uh Green Beret. And he's just like, we don't do that. We don't do the Green Beret thing. He's just like, oh my goodness. And so we we kind of laughed about it. Um and I later saw him as a Green Beret, and he he kind of joked and he's like, Oh, you made it. I was like, I made it. And he was a one star and he was on his way out, and it was good to see him again, too. So it was good.

Host 3:22:46

Let's talk a little bit about your uh, I mean, you deployed with the regiment um as you know, running the the echo company. Uh, you know, you you talked a little bit about Wyman. I mean, you had a lot of interaction uh with him. He was a SIL team six commander at the time. Uh later. No, he wasn't no, he wasn't. No, not then. Not then. He was not yet. No, no. Was he a JSON commander?

Chane Jackson 3:23:05

No, no, no. He was uh so so he he was in a special mission unit um at and assigned to the command net. And we'll we'll leave it at that. Yeah.

Host 3:23:14

Um, but you interact with him a lot. And I I remember I think one of the things you told me is he he came to you one time and said, I'm I'm sick of you guys getting shot on infills. I think we we should use boats. And you're like, uh, sir, we're rangers, we we don't really love the water.

Chane Jackson 3:23:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm not really sure how much I could talk about that though. Um uh uh, but it was one of those days where he came in and uh he said, he said, he said, hey, I'm sick of you guys getting shot at this way and that way, and you know what? And it like he was very creative, and he just go, you know, we need to get y'all on some boats. I said, What we don't do boats, man. I mean, I mean, I mean, we we do. I mean, you've seen it and we do it in ranger school and all that stuff. I was like, I don't want to get in the water. Uh, but he was smart for doing so, and uh it did save lives. And so he was very creative. He had some ingenuity in everything he did. Um, whether like he would have like how we dressed or change like kind of the uniform or change things, like um, like he he he wasn't afraid to venture into the world of like, hey, uh it's all about making you guys successful, but he I want to make sure we do it at the right level of risk that we and we I don't want to keep losing guys or having guys get injured based on you know the fact that they kind of have we have predictability, right? So um like I I really enjoyed serving with him. Um he he he's a he's an amazing individual, um, and he he he continues to stand out in my mind as one of those leaders that I was like, man, we bless me. It definitely I was a blessing. But when I saw him as a soxid commander, I saw him I was later doing data science. He gave me a big old hug and he's like, and he asked me, he said, hey, Tane, so you were a first lieutenant when we met the first time. He said, Hey, uh, do you think I was crazy back then? Or do you think I was uh had a a a couple a couple uh loose nuts uh or uh you know uh and I and I said to him, I said, sir, no, no, I don't think that, I don't think you were crazy. I think you are crazy. You still are. He said, ah, thanks. He said, I appreciate it.

Host 3:25:25

You had a couple good boat stories. Um you were telling the story, I think when we were prepping that you guys were on a boat, you know, you see a spotter, guy takes a shot at you.

Chane Jackson 3:25:34

Oh, yeah. So, so yeah, they were on the boat, and uh I mean so this is my first time kind of being on these kind of boats and stuff. And uh Wyman Wyman, you know, obviously he he helped us out, right? Introduced him. And I remember I spotted somebody off in the distance and I said, Oh, we got a guy at 10 o'clock. And then me, and then like gone. I was like, oh my goodness. But you know, the the the thing that sticks the most in my head was uh we we got stuck on a sandbar. And uh I remember uh I had a soldier via uh and uh and uh they're towing, they're trying to tow the boat off the sandbar, and it's just stuck. And then you know, just you hear it, oh, and you hear like this, and then they hear this crack noise, and the guy is running the ship, like the boat, like, get down. Everybody gets down, but Via stays standing up. He's like, and he looks around and you see this big metal thing come down, pow, crack him in the head, and he falls over, poof, like oh shit, Via, Via, like and he's knocked out, and we wake him up, you know, and uh, you know, revive Via, and like, you know, he's he's good, and he's like, Oh, what happened? I don't know, but it's he had a big crack in his head, in his Mitch, uh, which is his helmet, right? And I was like, Oh man, this is bad news, man. What what hit him? Uh it was like the tow cable. Like uh it it it it it broke because they were trying to tow it and it just broke off and like wind up hitting him. Um but yeah, Via was one of those guys I always remember. Like he he uh uh he he was one of those hardcore soldiers that just never gave up, but he did wind up going A-Wall when we got back. So it was an unfortunate story, but he wind up going A-Wall and uh we were never able to kind of get him back. So never sure what happened to him, but I hope he's doing okay.

Host 3:27:23

Yeah, he was working on a citizenship, right?

Chane Jackson 3:27:26

Uh so so at the time, uh I think I think he he had already gotten to the point he had earned that, I believe. But like after that, he had like he disappeared once he got back, and we we lost, we we never we never heard or saw from him again. So it was pretty unfortunate.

Host 3:27:43

I know that was a rough trip, that that trip for you guys. Do you think do you think that really affected him?

Chane Jackson 3:27:48

I think I think it did. Um I can you can never can tell, right, with these young with young guys, man. But um he saw a lot, um, he experienced a lot. Um, you know, and I I think you know that might have been a really, really tough rotation for him. Um good good individual, good man, but like, you know, he went A-WOL and you know, I tried to reach out to his family and everything, and uh we never we never able to get a hold of him again.

Host 3:28:12

I remember you told me that that deployment was was rough for you. Ranger regiments normally are, you know, those deployments are pretty hard. Uh you guys said you guys were ticked up, I mean, almost every day. Right, right. Were you guys losing guys on that trip?

Chane Jackson 3:28:24

No, no, we didn't we didn't lose anybody, we didn't lose anybody. Well, we did lose some guys um before I showed up. They lost a couple guys, but uh when I got there, we we didn't lose anyone. Um, you know, guys had gotten injured and stuff, but um we didn't lose anyone in that rotation. Um you know, later on and when I was in regiment, uh especially support platoon or like supporting submissions, uh, we we did lose uh uh a few folks. And one notable noble incident was when I was in Afghanistan, and I was working um as the exec I was working as an executive officer for the support company. But I was leading support in in Afghanistan for the reign regiment. Um and at the time, like I was running like, you know, I would run like the Medevac in and out. Um, and that's when uh Peachtri, uh Leroy Petri and uh specialist Gaitha Cole um had their incident um in uh in Afghanistan. Of course, like, you know. He checked out the Medal of Honor, didn't he? He did. He did. Uh and and I'll let him tell his own story, but obviously he'll he'll tell it to you, and you can watch it actually in the special operations headquarters. It's actually a video on it. They talk about his Medal of Honor. He talks about it. Um but he like he he winds up picking up a grenade um with his right hand and throws it back into the cupola um and gets shot in the head. No, not he doesn't get shot. Gaith hole gets shot in the head because Gaithiko goes in right after him and gets shot in the head. Um and Petrie it winds up exploding while Petrie's throwing it and he loses his right arm. But um and they they they were able to kind of pull him out of there, him and Gaitko, but he still keeps fighting as much as he can, even though he lost his right arm. Uh not his whole right arm, just like from like uh from the elbow up, right? So he still had the elbow. So what happens is you know, I'm in the Medavacs and stuff like that, help out with that. We we I get back with the Medavac, or we get back and I'm out there on the airfield, got to send him off on uh a C uh A C17 uh to because we're in Sharona, I'm about to send him out to C-17. Um and and then uh Gaithco's still alive at this point and with the bullet in his head, still alive. And uh I remember uh Petrie just kind of comes in and uh we're we're chatting and and he talks about he's like, Man, he says, Sir, next time something like that happens, I should have picked that damn grenade up with my left hand, not my right. I need my right hand. And I knew what he was alluded to. And then Gaither Cole started giggling because he obviously knew what he's alluded to, and we just uh we just like, well, I mean, that is that is the writing hand and all the things you do everything with. And he was just like, shoot! And and that was the last laugh that Gaithicol got to have, and and it kind of brought a tear to my eye because like he died on the plane on the way to Germany. So he was still conscious. Oh, yeah, he was still conscious at the moment. Yeah, he was still conscious, and and but he wasn't talking, but he was still conscious. But he he he left he let out a little giggle uh when when uh Sergeant Petrie said that. And uh, and like, you know, and I and I was I prayed for Gaith Cole that he was gonna make it, but he didn't. He wound up not making it on the way back. And Petrie did, obviously. Uh, he wound up getting a medal of honor. Um, we wound up writing a reward, I was part of writing that award up for him. Uh um, and like it it was it was a huge deal that he he got it. And uh and initially I didn't even think it was I don't even think it was, I think it was like a distinctive service cross initially, uh, but uh Colonel Corilla upgraded that thing to a medal of honor, which was a phenomenal. And uh he won it, winning it. And uh really appreciate Colonel Corilla doing that.

Host 3:31:59

Yeah, that's awesome. What uh I think it was in Iraq. I know we kind of skipped around a little bit, but you go to Iraq, um, I think you're you know doing the logistics thing, but you're that company commander that you had originally been him and the first sergeant, the ones that had pushed you out.

Chane Jackson 3:32:15

Um, what happened to them? Oh, uh well, they wound up getting a little bit of trouble in Afghanistan. Um and and I'm not gonna you know speak negative on them. I mean things happen, but um, I guess there was like a leadership, a leadership failure on the both on both their parts. So they wound up both getting relieved um and uh and and they got pushed out. Uh so you know they they kind of forced uh the company commander to retire and then they sent the first sergeant and pushed him out of the unit. And I think he wound up retiring as well. Um, I mean, it was unfortunate that it happened, um, but a lot of bad incidents that happened on the objective uh that that shouldn't have happened. They had a a couple accidental uh rollover incident with some folks died. I mean, just just just bad, bad things wind up happening in that organization. Um so uh Colonel Kirill at the time made the decision, like, hey, it's time to move on with you guys and move on to somebody else.

Host 3:33:12

Um I I know you didn't take a lot of satisfaction out of that. That's just not who you are. Uh, but what did you learn about toxic leadership from that experience?

Chane Jackson 3:33:19

Uh I mean, so I don't I I can't classify it as toxic leadership because I wasn't the one supervising them. Um I I do think, you know, how it felt for me, it felt toxic as a toxic.

Host 3:33:29

But I mean, yeah, you weren't supervising them, but I mean those two dudes ran you out.

Chane Jackson 3:33:33

No, they they did, they did. But good, but but I think that was part of God's plan, though. I I I don't, I don't, you know, I I think everything happens for a reason. Um, I think, you know, the the reason why I even mentioned that is because I thank God that I wasn't there associated with that. Because I would have gone down with them, right? I would have been associated with that that chaos in Mayhem that happened on that second rotation. Um but I I was able to go off and start my own path. And that path wound up giving me strength and later on. Um you know, and and and like yes, I do think those guys, you know, to me, uh yeah, they ran me out, but you know, that was a part of what was supposed to be my history. That was a part of what's supposed to be what makes me who I am today. Um and uh and and they didn't they didn't crush me or destroy me. Uh they didn't break me down and end my career. Um, but they they changed in my trajectory, which which was what for the better. Um and so uh I thank God for that because you know, those incidents happened, all those bad things happened on that that rotation for them, and obviously they came back and they had some leadership challenges that that Colonel Corilla had to make some decisions on. But it but I wasn't a part of that. So so that's a good thing. Like I was still doing my thing and doing well, and and I and I kept I kept on moving on forward. And at the time I was just a district platoon leader and wound up becoming the sustainable platoon leader um and wound up running both jobs, and then I wanted to become an executive officer for the that echo company. So I was moving on up the ranks and doing well. So regardless if they left or not, because they wound up leaving the unit and I'm still going. And uh and and I appreciate it. I got a chance to work with uh Colonel Botholamis and Colonel Tegmeyer and uh no what shoot the major Botholamis and Major Tegmeyer and then Major Boyer um as a as an XO and those guys also developed me too as senior leaders. And now both of them, like you know, General Botholamis is running the I was about to say uh everybody in your story becomes a general boy. Yeah, he's the 25th, and uh General Tegmeyer is running the 82nd. So so and I and I think uh I think Boyer, I think he's he's also one, but he's I think he I remember seeing him as uh brigade commander in one in the 101st, but I'm not sure what happened after that, but he's but all those guys are they're heroes, man. Uh so um I got a chance to, as the executive officer of the support company, work alongside all of those gentlemen, and they are all powerful leaders, and they they got to shape my future too, as well. Which I got mentored and taught a lot of good hard lessons from them too, as well. So I mean, you know, I yeah, yeah, bad things happen for them. Um uh I I frown upon that because I I don't I don't appreciate, I mean, I don't take glory in that or pride in that um or enjoyment in the fact that it happened. Uh I feel bad for the soldiers that they had to experience that.

Host 3:36:21

Um but I think it's a great warning for folks that are toxic leaders that you know eventually karma can come around, right?

Chane Jackson 3:36:28

Yeah, but I mean even even then, like I I think of it as God pulling me out of there because he didn't want me to be associated with that. Um, and instead I was associated with guys who wound up, you know, teaching me and mentoring me on on things that I would later need. Which which, like a lot of things I did as a XO for my battalion was because of what I saw Bertholmes do when he was battling XO for Ranger Regiment, right? So I'm like, man, if I hadn't seen, I and I got to see it up front and close and personal. I got to work with them on the computer and sit down and talk to them about things. I mean, this is stuff that, you know, I wouldn't experience if I was on the line, right? But this is stuff that I got the chance to like be exposed to. Um, and like, yeah, I didn't have to worry about dealing with the issues of that company.

Host 3:37:14

Uh, I had to worry, I I got the chance to help run the battalion, which I was like, hey, well, and all that logistical stuff I know is definitely gonna play a part in your next deployment, uh, you know, after you get out of the Q course. But before we dive in, before we dive in your SF career, let's take a quick break.

Chane Jackson 3:37:29

Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.

Host 3:37:40

Well, we just finished up your time with the range regiment, and these are uh, you know, as as course would provide with your life, there's never a dull moment. So you decide you were kind of a senior captain, I think, pretty much when you decided you were gonna go to selection, right?

Chane Jackson 3:37:57

No, no, I was uh I've been a captain for about two or three years. I wasn't a senior captain, but I was a like a mid-level. I mean, I needed to go to company command. I was I was getting to the point where I was getting a little too long in a tooth, but yeah, no, I needed to go to company command.

Host 3:38:11

Yeah, how did uh how did SFAS come on your radar or going to special forces?

Chane Jackson 3:38:15

So um special forces came on my radar. Uh um, well, a couple of the fellas that I was serving with wanted to go. Um they they were like, hey, we want to go and go be special forces, and they were in the range of regiment, and we were kind of in that support company and everything. I was like, oh yeah, man, that's and I and I felt like, you know, uh for me, it was like, uh, I want to get out and go get my MBA at Harvard or something, or or go to like Stanford or try to go to one of these top MBA programs. And I was like, maybe it's time. I was I kind of finished off and I was like, yeah, I'm kind of done with the entry and uh I on I want to do something else. Um had a good time. Like I said, I had a big grand experience in ranged regiment. Colonel, you know, Colonel Odom was like, hey, come back and take command uh if you can. Um but uh I was just kind of like, yeah, I'm kind of done. So I was like, well, you know, uh I had a bunch of friends of mine that had passed away that that I lost in combat, and I was like, hey, um maybe I should just give it a shot, you know, give this this uh, you know, going to selection a shot. So there was a guy, um, the recruiter there and in the local area, you know, obviously because the first group was right there and at that base. And so I was like, oh, well, let me check it out. And I put in the packet and applied, but I mean, I thought it was a long shot in hell. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna make it, right? And so I was just like, well, I'll just put my packet in, hope they accept me, and then I can go out there and just see what I got, right? Um I was already had orders to the Captain Career course, so I was already on my way to that. Um, but I was like, well, um, if it happens, it happens. Um, but the biggest thing that kind of drove me was I took the G Mat and uh I hadn't prepared for it and I tanked it. I was like, ah. What is that? Uh the GMAT is the uh is the graduate exam you take for business school. Oh. Um and I mean I didn't take it. It wasn't bad, but I didn't do great, right? It was mediocre score best, right? Um, so I was like, well, I mean, here we go with standardized tests again. I was like, oh shoot. Little I know at the moment, um, I didn't do well. I just needed to prepare for it, right? I just need to take the courses and do the preparation. I just didn't prepare, right? So I just I just took it and didn't prepare. So I was like, oh man, that sucks. So I was like, let me let me try selection, right? Anyway, I go to the Captain Career course. Um, and when I'm there, infantry brands is not having it. They're like, dude, you're too senior. You need to go take command. And rightfully so, I should have probably, right? You know, because I was old. I was getting older.

Host 3:40:48

Had you already gone to SFAS by the time you went to the careers course? No.

Chane Jackson 3:40:51

Oh, okay. Oh, no, no, no, no. No, not at all. Not yet. So I was in the career course, uh in route to uh en route to A striker unit, striker brigade to take command. So they had me slotted and they had me already going somewhere. And I was like, oh man. And I remember uh the conversation I had with uh the branch chief, the MG branch chief. He came down, he flew down, he saw all of us, he came and talked to everybody. I was like, hey, sorry, I mean you talked to some of these guys and some of them were going to selection. I was like, I put my packet and I want to also go to selection. He's like, you're not going anywhere. He's like, you're going to command and that's it. And I was like, I was like, I don't, I don't, I don't think, I don't think you get it. Like, I really want to go to selection. I'm like, this is this is something I want to do. Let me just give it a give it a try, right? Um, that's why I'm here. Um I just I want to see if I can make it. He's like, you're not going to selection. Don't even talk to me about it. Just forget about it, drop it out of your mind. You're going to take company command. Why would you? He said the only selection you're going to go to is a special mission of selection. Go ahead.

Host 3:41:52

Why why did they not, why weren't they not letting you go?

Chane Jackson 3:41:55

Well, I mean, because typically you want to go as a senior lieutenant or junior captain. And I had passed that mark at that point. Um, and so, you know, having been in regiment for as long as I was in, maybe a couple years or whatever it was, I I, you know, I was like uh a little bit older, a little bit more senior as a captain, especially it was like I've been like captain for like two years, maybe three almost, right?

Host 3:42:18

So uh Did you consider taking the long walk at all?

Chane Jackson 3:42:22

So, so later, not at not yet, because you have to have done command first. And um, so that was a part of my you know later calculus, but I I didn't I didn't decide then. I was I was just I wouldn't I didn't know if I could make it through SF selection, or even long walk. I mean I think there was no no long walks at this point. I was just like, I just want to see if I make it through this. Uh so I I didn't think I was gonna make it. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna make it. Well, first off, I didn't even think I was gonna make it to selections. So I was like, well, uh shot in hell if I just so uh so then I'm like, okay, uh they're they're being pretty tough on this thing, and it's getting close to almost done with the career course, and I still don't have orders to selection, selection, and I really need to go. Um, and they're telling me I can't. So I picked up the phone and I called uh I called the the schoolhouse for uh John F. Kennedy schoolhouse. And a Colonel Linford Mitchell answers the phone. Never never knew I didn't know who he was, he didn't know who I was. And he answers. He goes, Hey, what's going on? Uh yeah, sir. Um my name is uh Captain Jackson, and I would like to go to special force selection. And he's like, tell me more, right? And I start telling him the story and like what I did and everything else, and like I really, really want to go to selection, sir. I don't know if I'll make it, but I, you know, I I think I think I will. Um he's like, okay, all right. Uh and then he had a similar story. And it's funny, kind of he was like, kind of like, yeah, I had the same struggle getting out of the branch and trying to get over to selection. So he's like, they try to try to lock you in. He said, I'll take care of it. So he makes some calls. I guess he calls the uh the the CG up there at John O'Kidney School, and the CG calls the branch chief, who's a like a I guess a one-star, whatever it was for infantry, and that rolls downhill. Next thing I get a call from the branch chief, the the the the cat, the major that came to see me, and he's like, You're going to selection, but if I ever hear from you again, you're going to JRTC, and that's that. Like he said, you better freaking pass. Like, I was like, no doubt, I'm gonna pass.

Host 3:44:37

Especially with that hanging over your head. I was like, I was like, oh man. I was like, who uh who signed off on your packet at the regiment? Because did you have to get a signature from from over there?

Chane Jackson 3:44:45

Oh, uh Colonel Odom signed off on a packet. No, he was great. Uh he very supportive. Uh he never he never gave me any resistance on that. Um, even even Colonel Corilla wasn't bad on that either. Um, I saw Colonel Colonel Corilla after I graduated the Q course and went down and saw him and shook his hand. But Colonel Odom uh was a was supportive, very supportive.

Host 3:45:05

That's kind of uncommon, though, dudes leaving the regiment to go to SF.

Chane Jackson 3:45:09

Yeah. That's what he said. He said, like, we usually don't fit. Like you, you know, you're trying to put a round peg in a square hole. Because normally they go to the unit. I mean, well there are there has been dudes. I mean, no, no, there's a ton. There's a ton. You're right. Um, but uh and that's but but that's again after your second command. Like, so after you commanded a regiment, right? Um, but I was like, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna go to special forces and and and do the whole Green Beret thing. He's like, well, good luck. That's what he said. He's just like, oh man, he said it's gonna be tough for you. He said, we usually don't fit in there. Um, but I knew because I took that psyche vow that that would I would most likely fit in that community. So I wasn't worried about it. Uh and the psych had already told me that too as well. So I was like, well, I mean, we'll see, but I figured I knew I would be okay. Why was going SF important to you? You know, I think it was more important for the guys that that had passed. Uh, you know, for uh Benjamin Britt, Dennis Zelensky, um, you know, Bakemos, Garrison Avery. Like Garrison was, you know, he was always like, hey, I'm I'm gonna go be special forces trying to when we grew when we're coming up at West Point. So knowing and how guard these guys, I mean, these guys were the kind of guys that would be out there rocking as cadets, like up the hills, up mountains and stuff. And they just would, they would just put put the pressure on themselves and be like, hey, make themselves better. Um, on tactical markmanship teams and all that kind of stuff. And like, you know, these are guys I kind of looked to and looked up to. So I said, you know what, let me just give it a try, right? Um, if not for them, um, you know, for myself, it was just something where I was like, well, uh, you know, I'm not gonna do the NBA thing just now, just yet. Let me just kind of see if I can make this. And and if to me, it was just a crapshoot. I mean, I a lot of guys I knew um who had done it were like to me some of the most elite, uh, just like in the Ranger Regiment, you know. So I was like, well, if I can, if I can make it more power to me, but I I said, but I I don't know. I mean, it was like, hey, there was no guarantees and no guarantees in life, right? I was like, I'll just put one foot in front of the other every day, and then if I if I come out on the other end, then great.

Host 3:47:18

You failed your patrol, but they watched you, the cadre watched you do something that even people that were there still think was, you know, what was that inhuman. You carried a 500-pound barrel.

Chane Jackson 3:47:30

Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host 3:47:32

So that was when I first read that, I called Kevin. I'm like, man, did this happen? He's like, oh yeah. What happened?

Chane Jackson 3:47:39

He called me out of that, man. Yeah, so so uh so uh we had to get to this contraption, a said location, and uh the 500-pound barrel was a part of it. And uh, and the thing just completely obliterated, blow down at the bottom of a hill, a sandy hill. And and I knew the time was going and going, and I was like, shoot. So I had to make a decision. And they were like, what are you gonna do? And I took a deep breath, had my rugsack. I was like, I'm gonna need y'all's help on this thing. And I and I remember heaving that thing up and like, I don't know how I got it over my head. I think it might have been Kevin helping me to get it over my head, but these guys got it over my head, and uh then I just started marching with this 500-pound barrel, and I just started going up this hill because we couldn't get up that hill. And it kept going, we kept going back down this hill, and I just remember going one foot in front of the other and just like grudging. And everyone was looking at me like, what is going on with this guy?

Host 3:48:40

I was like, I even had to find it. Everyone was telling me, like, man, the cadre was saying, like, dude, he's not gonna make it, and then you made it. I did. That's right. That's right.

Chane Jackson 3:48:50

And like, and everyone was like, what? Um, and I don't remember much of uh, I don't remember much of it, but I do remember like I was hurting. Okay.

Host 3:49:01

Didn't you walk like uphill with it?

Chane Jackson 3:49:02

I think I'm just right. I walked up a sandy hill with it because that's we couldn't get it up uh with the contraption. So I just said, I know how to get it up and it's with these legs. So I just I just walked up the hill and uh and and uh I remember Kevin and some of the guys just thinking, like, man, this dude's nut. I was like, we gotta, we gotta pass. Like I said, that was my patrol, and I was actually the patrol leader. So I took responsibility for it. And uh obviously I took responsibility for the failure. There's some things I could have done better in the beginning to prepare, but I didn't. So I was like, you know what? I'll carry this load um and it's my fault, right? And I and I kind of accepted the fact that we weren't gonna make it. And I was like, you know, but I I didn't, I didn't want, I didn't want us to, I didn't want the team to think that we were defeated. I was like, you know, we're gonna continue to push ourselves and we're gonna make this thing.

Host 3:49:49

So and you guys got like 30 minutes or maybe an hour's sleep, and then you're back out to the next thing.

Chane Jackson 3:49:53

Oh, that's right. So that's what I'm saying. That's what happened at that was at night. So that's that's what I'm saying. We got back. So so that whole day was the long, long day. Um, because that second, I can't even remember what the second thing was. We didn't get done until late, late, and we just completely did not do well as a team on that. Um, and that's not you know, that's nobody's fault.

Host 3:50:14

I think we're just we're I think that was the turning corner.

Chane Jackson 3:50:17

But we're a bunch of individuals. We're a bunch of individuals who are good at what we do, um, but we hadn't come and gelled as a team. And and that's kind of what the cat direct was kind of getting on us. It was like, all right, guys, we'll see it in 20 minutes. So everyone's sitting on a cot, head down, and that's when I got on that cot and I said, listen, we're meat eaters. And that's that kind of turned it, turned everything around, and everyone got that speech and heard, and was like, all right, we got this. And next day we went out and we conquered that bad boy, and uh, and we worked together versus against each other. And I think the first time we everyone had all these great ideas, everyone was trying to talk, but this time we whoever was the leader, we supported the leader, we helped the leader out, we we pushed through, and I think that's where um, you know, we're gonna fast forward to our last day at this episode. That's what I'm looking at. Yeah, I know, yeah, I know you might get to it. The last day, um, everyone's tired, everyone's exhausted, everyone wants to quit. And we got this final obstacle that we had to do, but we had to carry it by hand. And uh we started walking, and one of the gentlemen started you know falling back. And I said, hey, put him on my crate. I'm gonna get him through it, right? So put this guy in my crate and we start humping it. And again, I'm leading from the back, right? I'm not in charge of the patrol. Um, and and I'm starting to push this guy. I said, we're gonna walk fast, everybody. You wanna take these breaks? You wanna slow down? Let's walk fast. We so we left everybody and we just kind of took off. And I remember we're just walking and walking. And I mean, I'm you know, I know where we're supposed to go, so I knew where the destination was, and they're on their way, right? And then finally, this dude just like gives up, falls down, boom, you know, uh, and is holding on to this crate, and I'm dragging them. And I was just like, I was like, dude, we're gonna finish. I said, and then I stopped, I dropped the crate, and I remember the cadre just watching this as this is going on. I'm like, man, I'm done. They're gonna definitely kick me out for this. And I stood on top of him, and I said, just quit. If you don't want to make it, just quit. You're gonna hold everybody back. He's like, no, no. He gets up, he grabs the crate, and he just kind of starts dragging his feet. He's just like, and he moves a little faster. And I didn't know we were so close to the finish. When right, we we turn in one corner and the cadre's like, stop, that's it. And I was like, man, this dude. So he wound up like finishing, and uh, and and like I was like, man, this cadre, they're gonna give me, uh, they're gonna get on me after this. I was like, man, and and the and the and the sergeant said nothing. He didn't say anything. Um, he just looked at me, okay, can it, and then takes off. And everyone shows up eventually, right? We're sitting there waiting, and uh like, man, it's kind of weird. He didn't say anything. And so later on, when they come, you know, pass out the results on the selection, like, hey, you know, they're calling people up, and I'm like, oh man, well, when am I getting my number called? Um, they didn't call me. And I walked up to one of the NCOs, uh, you know, one of the guys in the cadre. I was like, hey, uh, why didn't they call me? And he says, because you're exactly what we need, leading our units. And I was like, oh, good. I was like, that's a good thing. I gotta make it to the rest of it. But then then you have the next two years, right? In the course.

Host 3:53:33

So what was it normal for people like to fail patrol and still get selected?

Chane Jackson 3:53:37

Um, I don't know. I to be honest with you, I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it was, but I can't tell you. Um, so um, but they're also it one of the things they do say that they're always watching you and assessing you. Um, so I'm sure they knew about what happened in the in the cot with me on the I mean me giving them the speech, right? I'm sure they know about, I mean, they've they've they've got folks watching all over. They they they're keeping an eye on everything you're doing, everything you're saying, everything that's you know, so so even though I I I may have been like, oh yeah, like I felt my patrol, at least in my mind as a student or a candidate, I I was like, oh, I'm done, right? But they have they're assessing the whole package. Um, and so they're painting the big picture, like who you are as a leader, how you are as a follower, if you know how to follow instruction, if you can if you can push through, if you're resilient, they're watching all that stuff. So uh I found out later as I was in the organization when I came to the units and stuff, and then I realized what was going on. But yeah, they they assess the whole the whole body of work. So even though you are on a patrol and you are the leader, because some guys will shine when they're the leader, but then they'll just be a dirt bag when they're not. They're assessing that whole thing, right? They're watching everything, they're they're assessing, grading, all that. So yeah, there's times because the because at that point, when I had failed my patrol, yeah, I was trying to do my best, but when I was not on the patrol as a leader, I still decide to push myself for everyone else. So I didn't want that next patrol leader to fail like I did.

Host 3:55:07

That's awesome. Right. Um, so you graduate graduate SFS or get selected.

Chane Jackson 3:55:12

Uh how did you feel when you found out that you made it? When I found out I made it, oh, I I was overjoyed because I was like, man, I don't have to go to JRTC. I think it sucks. I was like, man, nothing wrong with JRTC. Some people like it down there, some people like it. Um it's a Louisiana swamp, bro. I know, I know it is, but but I got friends who live and they they went right back.

Host 3:55:36

No, Louisiana's an awesome place, man. I just, you know, their state bird is the mosquito, man. I love all my Cajuns, man. I spent a lot of time in Louisiana, but that's for some folks.

Chane Jackson 3:55:45

It wasn't for me. Uh and I'm sure, I'm sure I could have been in NTC or JRT, one of those places, but I would have been fine. But uh, no, I was excited because I was like, oh man, I get I get a chance, a chance at the title. I knew I wasn't done yet. So there was a little bit of anxiety for like not knowing what's next, uh, but joy knowing that you know I had actually made it, right? Um, not saying that I didn't love the entry and I'll miss my entry compadres when I went over to that side of the house. But um I was like, okay, now now it's a new chapter, a new adventure, um, a new challenge. But I knew I wasn't done yet. Yeah. I know if I didn't make it, I would have been right back where I started, right?

Host 3:56:22

So how uh how long before graduating F SFAS before you actually start the Q course?

Chane Jackson 3:56:28

Oh, it was not long because I was already pretty senior, so I think they put me right in like within the month. Oh nice. Oh yeah. I I don't think uh I'm trying to think about it. No, I don't think it was much time at all. I think I went right in. Uh they had they got me orders right away and I went straight through the pipeline uh because they knew I had to get to a team to get uh qualified as a captain and stuff, so they didn't want to waste any time.

Host 3:56:54

How is a cue course for you, man? I mean, you're coming from four years at West Point, Ranger School. Uh you've been you worked in the Ranger Regiment, you know, the 173rd was was, you know, you've got four combat tours under your belt. What was a cue course like for you?

Chane Jackson 3:57:07

Oh, you know, I tell everyone I said it I'm sure for an average person coming off the street, it's super, super challenging. I thought it was one a great time. Um I did have it, it did have its challenges, especially uh when you talk about search school and uh and uh and you know um you know small unit tactics and stuff. Um but Arabic, I mean Arabic was my language. I enjoyed taking Arabic uh and studying it because I already had a good baseline of it. That wasn't my language of choice though. My language of choice was Spanish again. Nice try. Notice how they never let me have Spanish. And actually, actually, was Colonel Linford Mitchell called me and tell me that. He's like, he's like, he's like, yeah, they told me you put Spanish on your your your number one uh request. He said, he said, but we gave you Arabic. And I was like, sir, can you switch me back to Spanish? He's like, no. That's funny. He said, he said, I'll do some things for you, like get you the selection. He said, but nope, you're gonna do Arabic. I was like, okay. That's fine. So so wind up getting Arabic was great. Uh, but I mean, in terms of like uh going through the Q course, I mean, it had its own challenges in and of itself. Um, but um I I did have a good time because it, you know, like you said, you've been to combat. I've been to combat a few, like four, four times. I've been in Afghanistan in the mountains, uh running around with the Rangers. So um I was very comfortable like in the woods at night. I was comfortable like rocking with weight. I was comfortable like, you know, going through the, you know, and not going through the motions, but with the small unit tactic level. Because again, you know, if you think about it, like on the reverse side, out of the leading an entire company element, which is about 150 folks or so, 160 folks, versus like now I got a small team of like 10 or 12, like, oh, I can handle that. Yeah, um, so I was like, so it was it was a little it's a little different. So we were doing the same because I felt like small unit tack was like a mini ranger school, so it was like a small, mini ranger school. So I felt really comfortable there, uh really comfortable execution executing there. Um, you know, was I the best? No, I mean there's guys better than me out there, right? But um could I hang with some of the best? Yeah, sure. I I could hang with them. Um and then I had a ton of fun doing it. So um only only ran a little bit of resistance when I got to like the alpha committee, which is which was a little which was a little tough.

Host 3:59:35

Yeah, what's different uh in the Q course for officers versus enlisted?

Chane Jackson 3:59:41

You know, everything is almost the same. Uh except for when you go off to your um military occupational specialty, officers go to what they call the alpha committee. So, like if you're a Bravo, which is a weapon specialist, you go to the Bravo Committee, right? Charlie would go to it with engineering specialists, we'll go to the Charlie Committee and Delta, you know, uh Delta's a medic who'll go off to the, you know, we'll go to the medic stuff, which takes a long time. And the echoes will go to the communications. So Alphas would go to the alpha committee. Um now I had I had an instructor um who was big on fitness, um, really big on like being in the top tip top shape. And I had just gotten through search school and I had mild frostbite on my toes, and I just couldn't run. Um normally I could run pretty quick, um, but I couldn't run fast. Um and uh he was like, and I ran, I remember I ran my two mile, and it was still a decent time for normal person, right? But to him, it was like super slow. And he was like, Oh, you're not gonna make it, you know? I was like, oh, here we go. But he was but in good intentions, like he he like looking out for the looking out for uh the special forces regiment. I mean, he's just trying to make sure I push myself, right? Um, so uh and and I was like, hey, I got my frostbite, trust me, this won't happen. But he he did everything he humanly possibly could to make it like hard for me because he's like, hey, I want to see what you got. Um, because uh normally his his way of telling if someone's gonna be a superset is that how fast they can run, right? Um that's kind of one of his his assessing things of how well you do physically, how well you put yourself physically, how much you do that. Um and at the time, like, you know, my run just kind of fell off just because that my feet just were just not there yet. Um, which is okay. Uh fast forward, I saw him. I was an XO for the battalion, and he told me, he said, hey, uh he was an XO for a different battalion. And he said, Hey, they told me you did really what you're doing really well down there. I was like, Oh yeah. They said he said somebody said you you can run your two miles super fast now. And I was like, Oh, I sure can. He said, He's like, good. He's like, I'm proud of you, and he's real proud of me. So it was good, and then we hugged and stuff, but that was like a couple of years later, but yeah, but so I made it through that. Um, and and uh even though he he he made it tough on me, um I I got through it. Um, and and of course he said, Okay, you're you're moving on to Robin Sage to finish off, and uh, and I was able to kind of do well with that too.

Host 4:02:12

So I remember one of the things you told me about kind of Robin Sage and and what you learned in the Q course is one of the things is you know you leverage your team to build the mission plan because you're not the expert. They are. How did that prepare you for an actual ODA leadership position?

Chane Jackson 4:02:26

So so I learned that in Ranger Regiment. Um, one of the things that Jeremiah kind of did leave on me was the ability to sit down with my squad leaders and sit down with him and kind of formulate the plan from you know their experience and their knowledge. So like I come up with like a generic like, hey, this is what I'm thinking, and they would modify and make it to where it was like actually something of excellence, like something was like, hey, this is this is how we should execute on this. Um whether they agreed or not agreed, um, but the way I did it in the Q course was you know, I leveraged them like uh, like, like a staff, like, you know, like, hey, you there. They know what to do, they've got their expertise in there and they've gone to their their individual training and their committees. And so leaning on that a little bit more um than when I was a regiment, but let allowing them and issuing the guidance and sitting back and kind of you know gathering information, making decisions and setting the mission and the tone. So what wound up happening when I went to my team, I started off that way right away. So as soon as I got to the team, um I put everybody in ISO. And I was like, all right, this is what we're gonna do. I'm gonna give out the guidance, I'm gonna give you uh our our uh metal task list, you know, what I think you know our metal is, and I'm I'm gonna send you off to the races to kind of formulate a plan. And then we're gonna come up with a training plan to meet these collective tasks. Um and so doing that allow the team to shape our training regiment and our and our plan and allow them to shape the mission that they want to go into because the the plan that they came up with helped get them into the mission that we we later got in Special Forces. And that that's kind of critical because a lot of people kind of kind of overlook that fact. You know, I didn't go in there saying, oh, I know everything because I'm special forces, blah, blah, and I'm ranger. No, I when I went in there and said, hey, you guys know what you need to do. I know what I know what I think I know what you need to do. Well, at least I have training to say what you need to do. Um, I know what missions are out there, what missions are are are that we could take. But if you want to get what you want to get, we got to show them and show the organization that we we we can do it. And so we were like they came up with some, and some of these ideas that they came up with, I was like, all right, I'm I'm gonna reach out. We'll see if they let us do it. Right. And uh, you know, like uh it it and it just it was crazy, but you know, for instance, uh they were like, hey, it'd be good if we could work on what they call the FID mission, which is foreign internal defense, training another organization how to do close quarters combat. I was like, well, what do you guys want? Who do you want to do? Uh one of the units in 82nd. I was like, what? You want me to go ask the unit in 82nd if we can help train their people? Like, yeah. I was like, okay. And of course, uh at the time, uh LeBrec, Captain Le Brec was now major LeBrec in 82nd. So I reached out to him and we set it up and we actually wound up doing it, right? Um, or training with the 160th. Like, I was like, man, I'm reached out on limb here and call the 160th and start to coordinate this training. So I talked to my group XO, got the training on, but we had to plan all in place, and so I just started doing the coordinating instructions for everything and uh wound up doing the training. And of course, the units were like, hey, this is this is the time calendar, we're gonna go do this exercise. You guys can come along, we're gonna do this, you know, medical training, this that next thing. And I was like, okay, all right, great. Like, we're with you. Um, so I wound up getting us in a training um that was not our original training. I got people in the training that uh would would would help with the team, and but the team kind of came up with that, right? So that's the beauty of it. Like the team built it. Um, and I just helped coordinate it and get everything in sync.

Host 4:06:05

Special forces NCOs are like none other. The NCAA core is very unique to the army, but man, special forces NCOs are a breed under their own. Kevin and I were laughing about that on the phone the other day. I mean, the stuff that you know, I'm sure you saw as an ODA commander. I've had a lot of friends in group. Like, you give them a tack, like, hey, we need to go do X, they will find a way. Bag, borrow, steel, you know, the the training missions that those guys can come up with. And it's just, again, man, the type of dudes that I've met from that organization, they're some of them still the most handiest humans I've ever met.

Chane Jackson 4:06:40

Well, yeah, I also gotta remember some of the guys were were older than me, um, multiple master's degrees, uh Cameron Westfall. I mean, he had multiple degrees already. Um, you know, the guys had a lot of experience, um, just just out there, uh, like it was something where I just knew, like, hey, I could lean on their knowledge and their expertise. Um, and and that that that was like, you know, you could talk to them about what they what they're what you're about to head into, what, what, what's going on. But I mean, they they are a breed of themselves. I mean, all the guys in my team could run a line company. Like they could, they could run a battalion. Like, I they they just they were just really bright. Some of them just chose that path to become an NCO, but they could have been an officer just like me. Um, like Cameron Westfall, he he could have been an officer just like I was, right? He's he just chose not to be.

Host 4:07:33

So coming out of the Q course, how'd you end up in third group? Do you guys get to pick as on the officer side of the house to give you a dream sheet?

Chane Jackson 4:07:38

I told you, I told you. Um so I I wound up in so you pick your dream sheet. Um, I picked seventh group, Spanish. Trying to use that Spanish. I was like, and they said, nope, third group, Middle East. And they had realigned themselves. The third group was now doing like Central Asia versus doing like Africa, the African mission. So um I came in right when they're like, yeah, no, we're not, we're not doing Citroasia anymore. We're doing Citroasia, not Africa anymore. So um, yeah, but remember that's Colonel Colonel Linford Mitchell was the one that he's like, oh no, we we put you in third. I was like, oh, thanks. Appreciate you, bro. And you know, but good on him. I mean, he's just like, yeah, you know, we we saw you had a little Arabic in your in your history and your past and your and your records because they pulled your transcripts and everything, and they have all that. Um they like, we we know you can handle it, so we're gonna sit you.

Host 4:08:37

And I was like, oh man. Did you did you go up, uh did you show up to group and go straight to a team, or did you have to do staff time first?

Chane Jackson 4:08:44

Oh, I went staff time first. So um, so I I was supposed to uh so I I I was very lucky. Um my daughter was born uh right before my deployment. Um so he the the battalion commander uh gave me you know Colonel Tal Sullivan, great individual, great human being. He said, hey, look, you need to go ahead and take uh a month or two. I want you to no, a month, take a month to be with your daughter after she's born. So he they already deployed. They gave me uh a month to kind of stay with her, um, and then then I was gonna go report to staff. And um, I was actually at the bottom of the list to take a team because I I got there the at the last person to get there, right? Which is okay. And I was like, oh man. And originally I was actually supposed to go to uh 2-4 because I was supposed to go there, go to school, and then go um, but uh yeah, I I had my daughter, so I was like, Well, I gotta have my daughter, this is uh this is uh you know, this is a big deal. And I, you know, my first child, and I was excited about it, and daughter's on her way, and and then I gotta spend some time with her and just a brand new baby, and I was excited, right? But then they shipped me out. Don't get too comfortable. Don't get don't get too comfortable. So, but then I was on staff and they made me the L O to Soda South, where I had a chance to uh meet some great individuals, like a guy named General Bannister. Have you ever heard of General Bannister? Uh he later became the uh division commander for 10th Mountain Division. Um after that, he shortly he died shortly after that. Um but uh General Bannister, man, I used to piss him off all the time. Because I had come in his office and I'm like, yes, sir, we're gonna go do this mission. He's like, wait a minute, didn't I just decline that? I said you guys can't do that. I didn't concur for that. It's like, yeah, he he throws something at me. Like, sorry, sir, sorry, sir.

Host 4:10:47

Um, but you know, but it it it was Were you just jamming con ops through to help the boys?

Chane Jackson 4:10:51

I mean, no, no, because that was my job to get the con ops concurred. Like he had to give concurrence on the con ops uh from Colonel Sullivan and crew, right? But there was some that he just was like, no, absolutely not. And uh some that they had they just had to execute on it, they had to execute on the mission. But then of course the one went down and uh they were like red on ammo and everything, and he knew it would happen. He said that and he didn't concur. And I remember like went to his office and he like I remember seeing a shoe coming at me like I was like, I'm sorry, sir. He was so fast. He said, Oh, I told you guys I didn't uh but he he didn't he gave me a hug out the words.

Host 4:11:30

But he was he was hot, he was upset. What happened? They go and get ticked up and then everybody went black on ammo. Yeah, they did.

Chane Jackson 4:11:37

It was it was a bad one. I mean, now of course he he sent he sent the crew in and and gave them relief and all that, but I mean they were able to kind of get out of it, but it was it was a bad situation. It was a bad situation, and of course, uh General Bannister was uh always planned and prepared, and he had he had an element ready to go to kind of get guys out just in case they did do the mission. So, um, and like he never, he never uh he he never like even though he was upset, he always was ready. Like he was like, oh goodness, here we go again. Now he wasn't division commander then. He was uh, I want to say he was the uh DCG, so uh deputy commanding general of uh I can't remember what unit it was, but he was deputy commanding general at the time. But he was he was a good guy, and we we used to have some great talks, and oh man, he's giving me hell.

Host 4:12:27

Yeah, you're over there, you're you're on RC South working with you know under under 10th Mount under 10th Mountain for the Sodaf, but you're speaking Arabic to the Emirates and the Jordanians getting like aircraft support. That's right. Your battalion commander sees this, what happens?

Chane Jackson 4:12:41

Oh yeah, so uh they he thought they thought I was crazy, um, but no, so he he would always uh a lot of times sometimes requests would kind of come in late and uh they would get denied or wouldn't get approved. So uh I had a special relationship with the Emirates and the Jordanians because I would go down there and start speaking Arabic to these guys and and I start using my Arabic skills and uh and they loved it, they and they enjoyed it. So um uh and I'll talk to Colonel Sullivan, I was like, hey sir, what do you need? He's like, I need I need aircraft, like I need it for this mission, I need this. Next thing I would like to go in there and like, oh man, I gotta sweet talk to these guys. So I go in there now, eat the food and and and and have like the big comfortable meeting, talk about family and all the things. And next thing you know, these guys are like like, all right, we'll give you what you need. What do you what do you need? And and typically uh they they usually flew around DIVs and stuff like that, but um, distinguished visitors, um, DVs. Uh and then but you know, when they when I came in there with the with the request and uh speaking the language and immersing my emerging myself immersing myself in the culture, uh they were like, yeah, they were they were okay and comfortable with uh with supporting us on that mission or supporting us on missions. Now the Jordanians, um, you know, they they were they were awesome too because uh they they just loved they they had their they had their what it was called the the it was like a fried chicken with salt and like and it's right it was so delicious. Um so I really love eating with the Jordanians too. And but they would they would go out on missions and stuff and everything and with good support and uh and and I always try to help where I could, and I told him I said, Yeah, sir, you know, how about? Um, but what funny was I actually wasn't supposed to take ODA 3422. Um I actually was flying back with some interpreters. Um and a captain, he he had already asked the captain to take the team. Um he said, hey, we need you to take ODA 3422. Um that captain had declined because he was getting married. Um and uh of course at the time, you know, like you know, I was all duty all mission, you know, to my own detriment, right? So I walk in and um he's like, hey, you know, I got a team. Yeah, Tyle Sullivan. He's like, I got a team. You want to take it? I was like, yes, sir. No, and you know, of course our report is ordered, and I was like, Yes, sir, I'll take the team. And he's just like, he said, now you gotta go train in England, then you gotta go home, pack your stuff, and you're gonna go ship off uh to a special mission. And I said, Yes, sir. And I was like, whatever it is. And he's just like, What about, you know, you just had a baby. What do you gotta do? I was like, it'll be all right, sir, you know, and uh of course, you know, uh wife wasn't happy about that. I bet. Uh, but but at the same time, supportive, right? And just saying, hey, you know, you're not gonna get a team every day. Just get do what you gotta do. So what wound up happening was I wound up going back to England, training with the Brits a little bit, and I got to the team, and that's where I saw Kevin and Crew. Now, Kevin had already been on the team for a little bit, I think. Oh, he had been there for a little bit. Uh, but I I saw him, uh Dermy Copeland and uh Tommy Meyer and uh and and and uh Karen Westfall and John Clark and Corey Morris, uh Ed Fontaine, and all these guys were already there and they were just you know going through a rough one. Um and when I got there, they they had some uh the leadership was it seemed to be out to get them. Um and I and I take that, I say that because uh I think the previous team leader uh saw some of the deficiencies in the team and decided that he wanted to, he was trying to get rid of people or whatever he was trying to do. I wasn't sure. But I I I I didn't think that was the case when I showed up. I felt like I when I met everybody, it was a bunch of individuals who were ready to take on the world. And um sure everyone had their own weaknesses and strengths, just like I told you at West Point, you know, like everyone had their own weaknesses and strengths, but as an organization, as a team, I I could see the potential. Um and I and I was really proud to be there, right? And I was proud to get to that organization. I was like, you know, I landed in a good spot. Um and I remember Tommy pulling me to the side, and like, hey, you know, here the you got here the boys, and like, you know, he was just telling me like kind of how everybody, all the different situations and everything that was going on with the previous team leader and everything. And I said, Don't worry about it. I'm not worried about that. Everyone's got a clean slate with me. We're gonna start this thing from scratch and we're gonna get it done. And he's just like, okay, but like just letting you know.

Host 4:17:36

And you got you had some gangsters on our first ODA, too, man.

Chane Jackson 4:17:39

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, no, they were, they were, and even Tommy was, uh and even Tommy had friction with the previous team leader. Um, and uh that didn't bother me any. Um, because I knew Colonel Sullivan told me that Tommy and him had served in uh um uh the had gone to Sephardic and had been in the um, what was it called? The uh the SIF together, right? Uh so uh he told me he's like, hey, this is one of the guys. I know he, I know he's a badass. Like he's gonna go there, he's gonna take care of it and Tommy did.

Host 4:18:11

What was it like seeing Kevin? You had gone to SFAS with Kevin, you went to the Q course with him, and then you come on a team and he's there. Was it nice to see a familiar face?

Chane Jackson 4:18:21

Oh, it was. I was like, oh man, you're here. I was like, oh shoot, I didn't even know you came out of the Q course. Well, we graduated at the same time, but I didn't know that's where he landed. I mean, I didn't know. Uh, but um I was like, man, I this is great. Like you're on the team, so it was good to see him in a familiar face. Um, it was good to see the new faces too. I mean, at the end, at the end of the day, like uh all the guys, at least from what I remember, Kendall Mankey, you know, um, they they were they were they were ready to go. Um and uh it's like you're like, but I I love seeing Kevin though, because it was very it was very relaxing to see like somebody I know I could like talk to and had gone through the struggle with me. So I was like, oh, I know he's been through the struggle because we went through selection together and I seen him in the Q course, right? So um it was good to kind of lean on him a little bit because we had we short we shared some stories quite a few times and you know be able to talk a little bit uh you know on a personal level about stuff, and it was good to have that that that that comfort of having someone that you've been through the the trenches with.

Host 4:19:20

Kevin's got a wild story. Kevin will hopefully come on the podcast if we're lucky, maybe this summer.

Chane Jackson 4:19:25

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He does. He does. He's he's he's got it, he's got a wild one. I love it.

Host 4:19:30

Just a just a another great human being. Um, so yeah, this deployment. So you you you end up taking the team. How how long before you come on the team and you realize you guys are going to Afghanistan?

Chane Jackson 4:19:42

Oh, so well, initially we weren't uh we had a different mission. Um and I knew that was gonna happen right away, but that got kind of blown up. Uh some incidents happened overseas, and we weren't able to go do that first mission.

Host 4:19:54

Yeah, because originally you guys were going to Pakistan, I think.

Chane Jackson 4:19:56

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then they had they executed on the whole uh bin Laden raid and everything. So we went, we weren't able to kind of go out and uh it kind of sucked. And so the guys were kind of like, oh, you know, like that that that was something they were looking forward to. Um, but then I, you know, we we got into ISO, readjusted our planning, um, and then we went out there and said, hey, if we're gonna go to Afghanistan, because then we got alerted where everyone's gonna go, our entire battalion, we're going back again. Um, granted, they just got back. So, like, hey, you go back again, um, you know, in the following year, uh, get get your stuff together, get yourself together. Uh, and so then we're like, all right, well, uh, a lot of folks were going into the Villa Stability Operations Mission, but there's also this thing called the commando mission where you get to train Afghan commandos and you go out and you would be the that force for direct action, um, especially with the different VSO ops going on. Um, and you would be like that operating force, kind of um similar to what I was doing in Ranger Regiment. So very similar. Um, so that being said, I I told the guys like let's let's train to those collective tasks and show the battalion commander and and and the organization that this is where we belong, that we can do this. So that's what we did. Uh that's what we did. Uh and uh they they kind of put together a very detailed, structured like training calendar, um, got us great exposure, um, you know, got the team working, you know, and getting certified on all the different things we need to be certified on before getting out there, where at the end of the day, there was no argument that you know, when they when people, when when other team leaders went to vouch for why their team needed to be the commando team, like, you know, hey, we we had met all the metal tasks and collective tasks. And so that that's why I had the team go through that exercise. This is what you want. Now, mind you, that's not necessarily what I wanted. I because I think initially you want to do VSO, didn't you? I did want to do VSO. Then I'm glad that Kevin told you that. And I was like, I'm trying to do VSO. I like, I like the hob knob. I wanted to, I wanted to talk, shake babies, kiss hands, right? You know, like I wanted to be out there shaking, you know, kissing the baby, shaking hands, and all this other stuff. And I like I want to go out there using the language skills. No, no, no, no. The team wanted to go out and do direct action. I was like, okay, well, if that's what y'all want to do, again, I'm you guys get to shape your future. Um, because I know a lot of them had other ambitions outside of just being on ODA. Some of them want to go to um the SIF, some of them want to go to special mission units, some of them want to go to, you know, more clandestine operations type stuff. So knowing that, um, I was like, hey, whatever's gonna set you up as a team for success, I will support whatever we want to do. So I set the metal, I set the mission, metal and gave the guidance, they set the collective task, and then we we executed. Um, so at the end of the day, we were the best fit for that mission because of how they trained, and because of what they because of how they prepared and everything else. So um it was it was like an easy answer.

Host 4:23:05

Um did you know um, or did you guys know at the time how kinetic or was it being talked about? Because that was an extremely kinetic deployment for you guys, and actually for third group in general. Uh, you guys ended up in in Afghanistan in 2012, and those were some wild fighting times um during those during those times. Did you were you guys expecting that?

Chane Jackson 4:23:27

Or I will tell you, I wasn't. I definitely wasn't. Um I I I thought we would be kind of responding to village stability operations whenever they had issues, or we would go out and support, but it wound up being a lot more kinetic than I expected. Um we wound up working with the Marine Special Operations, um, which actually one of the gentlemen, Chris Stark, actually owns a D1 training gym in North Carolina. So we actually are D1 owners together. It's pretty cool. Yeah, because for that trip, you guys fell under MarsOc, right? We did, we fell under MarsOc for that trip. So I I and uh I got a fellow that works out of the gym here now, Wayne Mai, uh was like the S1 uh for Marsok or what they call the M1? Is it the M1? I don't speak Marine. But he but he worked at Martin, he worked the personnel, but he was out there with it. He works out of the gym here, and we're good friends. But oh yeah, no, so we we want to fall into Marsok. Um I I don't think any of us were ready for the level of uh kinetic.

Host 4:24:33

And my understanding is initially you guys were supposed to go to one area of Afghanistan, and that changed not too long before you got there. Was that the same for you guys? Because I know 2-4 originally was supposed to go to a whole different area in Afghanistan, and then not too long before they left, because they actually prepared to go somewhere else, and they ended up going. Uh you ended up get they ended up getting an area change in Afghanistan. Was it the same for you guys? Were you guys always going out near Harat?

Chane Jackson 4:24:55

Uh, so I I you you you kind of pull it that's pulling back. My memory. Um, I do think we were all supposed to go to a particular area, um, but then they did shift us, I think it was. Um, I think we were supposed to be out east because I was definitely comfortable out east because I've been there before a few times, but we went west, and when I was like, oh, and then we fell into the Marines. So I think that's kind of where the the shake, the shift was um in the support the Marines. So my I I think our team and two four wound up going to support the Marines, where the rest of the organization wound up going like out east. So we were all preparing for the east. Um because our entire battalion was the out that way. Um, and then like they were like, hey, you two teams, like, no, it was three of us. It was uh 2-2, 2-4, and I want to say uh Chris Couch's team, 2-5. We all went west. Um, so hey, and he was up northwest, um, and then uh Shin like Shindad area was where uh 2-4 was. That's where Dave was, and then I was the hit their support.

Host 4:26:02

What was it like? So um I haven't told the audience, we're gonna get to that point in a second, but you know, you had a classmate um in I think you guys were in the same company uh when you guys deployed. So he Dave was the ODA 3424, uh and you guys were almost co-located. I think he was south of you guys. You guys were, you guys, he took the his ODA took the VSO and you guys took the DA with the commandos. What was it like knowing you were gonna share a battle space with somebody uh that you were extremely close with from West Point?

Chane Jackson 4:26:32

Well, we didn't share the battle space, he owned the battle space. Uh, I was just in charge of the commandos. I mean, I moved to multiple different areas. Oh, so he controlled that whole area? Yeah, he controlled the whole area. Like, so I I mean, any anything happened in that area, I would lean on him to kind of help me help guide me to like, all right, you want me to do mission here or whatever. So we did a lot of planning and joint planning together. But what was it like to have like somebody close? I mean, all the guys there. Like, uh, so Chris Couch and and and and Dave were from West Point.

Host 4:27:00

Oh wow.

Chane Jackson 4:27:01

Uh so Chris was, I mean Chris might have been class of 05, but he might maybe a year younger, but we all knew each other. So uh it was nice, nice having uh somebody I knew I could trust, a new somebody that I I had been with through the through the through the trenches with. Um, and you know, Dave being an old infantryman too, as well. And and Dave, Dave is a a pleasure to be around. And I and I used to call him my brother too. Like he came back to the base whenever they want to come get a kind of some a little bit of rest and relaxation, they come back and come see us, and uh and we walk around, be like, oh, this is my brother Dave. Or we go do our next planning mission. But you know, Dave, Dave always had my back, and that that's something I knew. Um, like going going in, and uh now would have his back. So whenever he called me, I was coming. Like, no, no, no, no matter where I'm at. I could be on in Helm and like, hey, Jack, I need you here. Like, we will we'll figure out a way to get back, right?

Host 4:27:53

So And even before you guys deployed, I mean, even in the train up cycle, you guys were I think 2-4 was training with you guys, weren't they?

Chane Jackson 4:27:59

That's right. Yeah, no, we trained together the whole time. All right, uh, 2-4 trained with us, 2-5. Um, but 2-4 and us, we're we're pretty tight. Um, we we mesh well together. Um, and then and on top of that, like uh, I mean, I I knew I knew I knew Dave. Uh, you know, we we obviously knew each other in person, fam, uh personal level, family level. Um, so we uh we got along great. I mean he knew he knew all the dirt on me. Uh you know, I I got some of the dirt on him as well. But yeah, he's like family. So it was it was great to have like it's like you know, having your own brother out there next to you. Um, I never want anything bad to happen to him, right? Or his team, but uh it's like having your brother out there and like, you know, hey, I knew I was good with Dave being there.

Host 4:28:44

And just so the audience knows, for those of you guys are listening, I'm I'm very familiar with with this area because we did a seven-part mini-series on on uh Dave's ODA 3424. Uh they lost Master Start Gregory Trent on that deployment, which is gonna come up here a little bit in the story. Um, and so we interviewed um five people from that team. We interviewed Kevin Robbins, uh, who was on Shaunae's team. Uh Shaunee was there during this event. We're gonna cover it here. But, you know, we we covered that story in in extreme detail. Uh Dave was on the podcast uh talking about that from a leadership perspective. So if you guys haven't heard that story, um, it's it's definitely worth listening to. It's not very often that you're gonna get to hear uh a story about a hero that's told from multiple angles and multiple people on the team. Uh and you know, we'll cover it here a little bit on this podcast as well. But Gregory Trent was a larger-than-life um individual on 3424. And, you know, you guys uh trained, you um, you knew Greg, every every you know, the teams worked together. And uh so yeah, if you guys haven't listened to that story, it's a it's a it's a great listen uh by some great human beings who tell a story about the worst day of their life and and kind of who what what Gregory met. So I just wanted to kind of give that that backstory. Um so you know, you you get deployed in there and you guys um you know start getting settled. What was it like for you initially coming coming onto the team, right? So you're following some some shoes, a pr a previous leader that you know you're you're having to make some changes, um, you know, and try to affect some positivity while still being, you know, the leader. You're new to special forces, but you're you're not new. Uh did you did you feel like you were in the situation where you again you had to prove yourself?

Chane Jackson 4:30:24

No, no, not at all. Um, and I never felt that way in the special forces regiment. Um, I always felt like um you you had proven yourself going through that cue course. I mean, that's a two-year process. Um, I but I did feel like uh when you got to your team, you know, of course you always gotta show your guys that you're competent and you know what you're doing, but um at that point and that deployment, it was and like proving yourself wasn't a thing. It was like, hey, we gotta, we gotta get it the job done. Um, so we were out there working hard to get the job done, not not not worried about like, you know, showing, you know, make sure everybody has our signature of approval. I mean, like I told uh Kendall Mankey one time he came up to me, he's just and I was kind of pushing the team, kind of, I was kind of being hard on the team, and I was like, hey, and he was upset, and he's like, Oh, you only care about this so you can try to get promoted, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, I care about it so you do well. Like, he, because your career is gonna be impacted by our performance out here and how we do. And and I care about the guys that we serve in left and left and right. I'm gonna be fine. Like, I I'm not worried about my next step.

Host 4:31:28

Yeah, one of the things I thought was so cool, Kevin was talking about how, you know, when you first came to the team, I don't know who it I don't know if it was the old commander who gave a PT test, and you know, you smoked him on the PT test, and right some of the guys didn't do super great, but instead of you crushing them, you went to the Thor facility, which was I think still somewhat new in special threats.

Chane Jackson 4:31:45

Right, that's right, yeah, yeah.

Host 4:31:46

Yeah, talk to me a little bit about that.

Chane Jackson 4:31:48

Uh, you know, so like I told you, like they they they kind of had some bad leadership when I first got there. Um, and by by bad leadership, I mean like you you mold your team and shape your team. Um, no one gets to the Q course wanting to be a bad team member. No one's gonna show up with a green ray being like, oh, I just want to fail at this. So when you show up to a unit and people aren't achieving excellence, it's but not because of them, it's because you haven't given them the motivation to strive towards excellence. So when I showed up, you know, uh the team leader wanted to put everybody through a PT test to show me um where their faults were. Like I told you before, people had their weaknesses and their strengths. Well, guess what? I'm gonna present excellence to the team. And that's what I wanted to show that I wanted to present excellence. And I'm gonna present excellence in every single event we hold. I think I ran my two-mile that day in like 1120 or something like it was. And I ain't run like that in a while. But I was cooking, right? And I was like, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna get these guys, I'm gonna show these guys what's up, right? You know, just but not because I wanted to hammer on them to show them like this is what you need to be. It's because I wanted to show them what it means to be excellent. Um and and and I'm not here because I'm better than them. I'm here because I'm I'm gonna get them to push themselves to the next level, right? Um, and I wanted to set the example, not for me, but for that team leader. I say, if you want to get on these guys and harp on them, you better be excellent. Now he moved on. Um, and then what I did was I talked to Tommy, who's the team sergeant. I said, hey, I got it. We got some guys who had some weaknesses in some events, some guys that struggle in some areas. Let's let's figure out a way to make this work. And so I went to the Thor facility and I told them, I said, hey, the team needs a little training. We need to get it, get, get the get them right. Um, so they they have they have athletic coaches that come from Division I sports, uh, you know, professional sports. Uh, one of the guys actually trained the Carolina Panthers, and they were sitting there in the Thor facility. I was like, hey, what are you guys doing? Like, you can help us out? And and they came up with a monster training plan. They bring your team on in. And at first, you know, the team went in, you know, everyone's like, oh, I don't want to do this. But then when they saw the value in it and they got assessed, and like, you know, and these guys are pushing them every day, and this training was coming in, and we're we were able to get in there and do our training. We hit the cold plunge, acupuncture therapy, all the things, right? Uh, then the guys were like, all right, this is worth it.

Host 4:34:21

Yeah.

Chane Jackson 4:34:21

And it and then and then physical fitness scores improved dramatically. And I said, Yeah, again, it's not it's not a soldier failure, it's a leadership failure. Um, if people aren't training, and I learned that from Jojo Racy. Um, my very first uh report card he gave me, I said to him, you know, he said physical, it said physical was okay. I said, wait a minute. And this is I just and now I'm rewinding back to when I was a lieutenant. So why are you saying my physical was okay? I I maxed a PT test, I did all the things. What are you talking about? He's like, but your platoon. He said, they got a 260 or whatever it was, average score or something. And I was like, oh he said, it's about your unit, it's about your organization. How are you leading your team? You know, that's what I'm evaluating. You know, I'm not evaluating on you. You're you're a physical specimen, you're a stud. Great. What does that mean for your unit? Nothing. If they can't perform physically or they can't do that, and so he taught me that. And so when I showed up to that team, I I had embodied that piece of knowledge and I took that to the team. I said, hey, I don't care if I score 500 on the freaking PT test. If you guys don't score well, then that don't mean nothing for us, right? I I gotta make so, but I'm not gonna sit here and harp on you for that. I gotta prepare and come up with a plan with Tommy. We come up together. Obviously, Tommy obviously he's a team sergeant. He's running it, right? We're gonna come up together with a way to get this, to make this work and get you guys where you need to be. Because you know, guys had injuries, guys had other things. So it's not their fault. They just need to learn how to work around that, fix these injuries, learn how to work out properly. And you know, in some cases, guys are just lifting just a little too much or lifting a lot, and they just need to run a little bit more and they just need to train a little bit more. But by the end of the, by the end of our, by the time we got to Afghanistan, everyone was in tip-top shape. And that was no longer an issue. So it's like, yeah, like I said, like no one shows up to uh operation detachment alpha being like, I don't want to be in the best tip top shape of my life and be a stud and be a winner. Like, so so uh it's up to you as the leader to make sure that you can enable that um and help them get to the point where they can be a stud and can reach excellence because they will. And and and if they got through that Q course and they got through selection, I know they will, right? So so that that that wasn't that was not something I was gonna sit there and and and waste time trying to like, oh, I'm gonna pick at this guy, pick at this guy. No, no, no, no. Like, we're we're gonna get you right. And then I'll talk to the guys as they go through it and they go through their struggles and and they, you know, and then the coach would talk to me about different guys and their performance, and uh everyone continued to improve and continue to get better and continue to get stronger. Next thing you know, I was just like, now I'm in the back of the runs, right? And I was just like, that's where I want to be, right? I'm running to catch up.

Host 4:37:14

Yeah, but I mean, what a what a great tool, right? And what a great, I mean, you know, that really I think started forming the cohesion um before you guys even got in theater, which played out during your deployment. Right. Um what was it like to try to battle to get that commando mission? Because I know you guys weren't the only the only one.

Chane Jackson 4:37:30

Oh, there was no battle. Uh there was no battle. Um, I don't, I don't think, I think, you know, all as team leaders, we all kind of came together on that. Um, but I think one of the things about it, yeah, yes, maybe some, maybe some of the other team leaders are battling. Um, but like I told you, I put the team in ISO. I went through mission analysis. Can you explain what ISO is? So so isolation is I I I put them in a uh, we went to our team room, we locked the door, we're like, hey, for the next week, we're gonna sit here and plan. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, do our research, do whatever we've got. Only time you're leaving is if you're gonna go get something you need uh more information on or whatever. But we're gonna sleep here, we're gonna work here, we're gonna do everything right here in this team room until the last day where we have a flushed out training calendar, training plan, everyone executing on this, you know, and and we know where we're headed in the future and where we want to be. Um so isolation is that time the team just sits in and really, you know, goes through the uh the planning process. Uh you usually call it the military decision-making process, but in this case, I had them, you know, executing as if they were doing um uh like long-term training plan. Like so I said, hey, I want to go, I want to, I want to flush out our metal tasks, which our mission essential task list, and what's gonna branch off that is our collective task and based on the guidance and the mission that we all want to execute on. So, you know, shape that mission as a team. They kind of said, hey, what they want to do. And then from there, I let them kind of filter out like what do we need to do, where do we want to be in order to get to the mission that they wanted. Now, the the mission they wanted was the commando mission, like you said before, like we already talked about. That's not what I wanted. But I'm gonna, but it's but it's a team, so I'm I'm gonna execute on what they want to do, right? Um, so I was like, hey, that's it. You know, that's what we're gonna do. So then I briefed that to the battalion commander, and I briefed, and he had me brief it to the group XL, and and and then they're like, all right, once they blessed off on it, then I just started doing my coordinating instructions. Like I started going to Task Force 160, 82nd, you know, this this or whatever units, right? Started finding out different locations to do our our whatever planning, training, whatever it is. And, you know, so you know, if we had to do some type of live tissue, any of that, like I I figured that out. We figured it out as a team, right? Um, so so uh that is I think how we were able to get the commando mission. So I do think people were fighting for it, but but they weren't showing the leadership that they could do it, right? So, so I didn't I did it's like I said, I didn't fight for it. I wasn't trying to say, oh, I'm better than this team or I'm better than that team. I didn't do that. I just said, hey, hey, sir, this is our this is our training plan, this is what we're planning to do. Yes or no? Looks good to me. Send it up. Yes or no, right? Now, once he saw that, Nick said, All right, what mission do you want? We want the commander mission. Why? Because I did this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. You're good. You got it. That's it. So, so and and to um, I want to say he changed command then. Um, it might have been another guy that came in after. Um Bill Lynn came in after him, but I'm not sure exactly when Tal left. Um, but yeah, I definitely briefed it to Tal Sullivan. Um, and uh I briefed it to uh my company commander Welliver. Um, and and and they they they were like, hey, good to go. Um and so and um and that was that was it. So and and I and I told the team, I said, if this is what you want, now now would I have heartburn if they told me VSO? No, I wouldn't have had heartburn, but I'd have been like, let's go.

Host 4:41:27

Um what was it like for an ODA falling under Marsalk?

Chane Jackson 4:41:33

You know, it was different. Um, because they were still very relatively new in the special operations community. Um, but it was rewarding to see the amount of respect that they gave us, um, especially after we we had shown like that we we we were well trained and had operated at a high level. Um, because there was one time that the uh the MarSock commander like made me the ground force commander for the entire unit in a joint operation. And I was like, whoa, you want me to do that? I'm like, you're you're you're the commander. He's like, no, no, we need you, I need you out there forward directing traffic. And you know, here it is, my team and us. We're we're out there not only maneuvering, but we're directing traffic with other Marine Special Operations units, and he trusted us with that, which meant a lot to me because it's like Marines don't they don't mess around when it comes to them. You have to show tactical competence. They they are very, very professional. And for those guys to trust us with maneuvering other other, you know, other teams out there on the battlefield at the same time giving him full out reports and all this other thing, um, while also being engaged, uh meant a hell of a lot. I was like, man, this this this guy is uh this is something else, man, with the Marines. And so I was very proud to serve with those guys. I know, I know with some of the guys they had a little bit of friction because sometimes, you know, your requests are a little different, like you get feedback and they don't they deny things and um you know because they they are uh a little bit rough around the edges, uh, but that's what you expect with Marines, they're tough. So we had we had to we had to be tough too.

Host 4:43:12

Yeah, no, you you alluded to it earlier. I mean, you made some lifelong friends. Um one of the things I thought was interesting too. I mean, uh, you know, you supported all the VSO operations across Afghanistan. So when someone was in a tick or had a nasty firefight, a lot of times you guys would get called. Is that is that accurate?

Chane Jackson 4:43:28

Uh I would say mainly in the west. Um mainly in the west. It was I think it was one or once or twice we went out east. Um, but typically we would we would we would stay in the west. Um so all the way from like Kandahar out to Helmand and uh but then or we also had Kajaki Province, which is really nasty, um, Bag East. So we we mainly stayed out west and a little bit north, but uh you know, because there was another commando element that was east. Um that we were supposed to go initially, but we wound up going out west.

Host 4:44:00

Uh you had a pretty unique relationship, I think, with the soft commander. Was that General Brooks? That's right, General Brooks, that's right, yes, yes. Um, and you kind of worked, did you work directly with him a lot?

Chane Jackson 4:44:09

Yeah, oh yeah. Uh so because the command, like because of the command of mission and nature, we did a lot of joint planning together, a lot of mission planning together. And uh, I mean, he's a great individual. Um, that's where I kind of met Chris Starks. Uh, Chris was like working in the ops section and Wayne Mai, I got to work with those guys. So there was a lot of back and forth that we had with the the Marine Special Operations Command because those guys were running like, you know, the Western hemisphere, pretty much, right? Sort of West. So because of that, like, and we were their reactionary element, like whenever he's doing any type of joint planning, or like, hey, we're gonna go do this exercise, or we're gonna not exercise, but you know, this engagement, like, you know, I would be included in that and roped into that. So myself and Tommy would fly out. Um, sometimes we take Kevin along with us, um, you know, or we take Jeremy or whoever, and we'd go out there and figure out, like, hey, um, you know, what what's what's what's next? Where are we gonna execute on? Um, and we actually sit down and come up with a cohesive plan.

Host 4:45:05

So the village stability ops, we talked a lot about that when uh when the guys were here from 3424, but can you speak to the commando mission? What I mean, obviously you were training and advising Afghan commandos. Um, how were you guys executing targets? Where were your targets coming from? Were those being uh sent up through the VSO teams, or were you guys doing completely independent mission planning or both?

Chane Jackson 4:45:28

Oh man, so we we had done uh we we were pretty unique when we got there. Um one of the things that I charged the team with was like, hey, by the time we leave, I want these commandos to run unilateral operations without us. Um I want us to train them and prepare them, have them be able to coordinate with their own air assets and be able to execute their own missions without us being there. Um so we were we were really working hard to get that, make that happen um with that organization, with them as a commando element. Same time, like every day the guys were out training with their their their Jason unit. Um, you know, not Jason unit, I guess they're with their partner force, right? They were training with their partner force, training them with marcheship, maneuver. Like, you know, every day those guys were out and busy doing that. If not out on operations. Now, when we go in operations, the commandos would obviously um be the lead and the front element of the of the fight. And obviously we would we would kind of fall behind. There was very few times where uh we would actually operate unilaterally, but we did um on occasion, but we still had commandos presence with us when we went. Um But you know, some of those missions were a little bit more high risk and we didn't want to uh lose them, uh lose folks. But yeah, we for the most part, um the commandos like they they they were they knew what they signed up for. Okay. They knew that they hey they were They're going to have to come out and and execute on some tough, tough objectives and be in some serious firefights. Um, and they knew that that that that's that's a part of the that's a part of the the but so so my biggest thing was to sit down with that battalion commander every day, talk through the training, sit down with the S3, the XO, and and talk about where they are in execution, where they are and how they are performing. And like I I wanted to put the pressure on that commander to be running his unilater ops. Now, by the time we left, they were. They were. They were running unilateral operations, they were coordinating with their uh uh with their adjacent units, getting air assets in. So they were actually getting aircraft in to go fly to their objectives on their own, um, and and executing on their own on targets and targeting and everything else, which made me extremely proud because I was like, all right, you know, by the time we've left, they had executed like at least at least uh almost a dozen unilateral missions on their own, right? At that point. Um, they had their own jock running, everything else going, and they were they're starting to execute. Now, um, do they have some issues sometimes? Yeah, of course. Um, but they were still making it happen, right? Oh, yeah, no, no, no.

Host 4:48:18

Oh no, I believe it.

Chane Jackson 4:48:19

Yeah, always gonna be some issues, but that's okay.

Host 4:48:22

Afghans are a wild bunch sometimes.

Chane Jackson 4:48:24

No, no, they did well.

Host 4:48:25

They did well. Um, there's a preacher story uh I thought was an interesting story. The you know, 2012 there was the big green on blue, so Afghans were turning on Americans. Um and that was something that a lot of, you know, there was a lot of dudes that were killed in the couple years before and after uh of Afghans that had turned on Americans that were training them. But there was a guy going around to different Afghan units, police army, and commanders trying to convince them to shoot Americans in the back. Um, can you tell a little bit about that story?

Chane Jackson 4:48:54

Yeah, that's a tough one, man. Uh, because that's one of the ones where uh sometimes I go back to that story. I I think back to that, uh, because it really it really burns my soul sometimes. But all right, so there was a guy who was going out and he was spreading that propaganda that Americans are bad. Um and he was pushing uh uh to go out and kill Americans, shoot them in the back. Telling Afghans to shoot Americans in the back, you know, Afghan police, Afghan uh army, Afghan commander, whoever he could convince. Um but this guy was running around unarmed, right? He was just just just a horrible person, but he knew like he he had a little detail with him, a little security detail, and he just was trying to like not, you know, he's just spreading the spreading the nasty word. Well he he he decided to come visit my my candac, you know, the commanders, uh the commandos in the cand. So I'm just kind of strolling on in normally like right after breakfast or something like that, and I think like around lunchtime. You know, we it's around lunchtime or so, right? I'm kind of strolling in and gonna go talk to the Afghan commando commander, and uh I see this guy sitting there at the table. I'm like, oh man, there he is. And I'm like, man, I just arrest this dude now or what? But I knew that it was something called poshtum wali, which is whenever someone crosses the threshold of your home, they are safe. And that's how the Afghans treat it. No matter if they like you or not, you cross the threshold, they got a feasia, they they they're they're hospitable people, they're kind. Um, so that's in their culture. But you can't arrest someone, kill someone if they kind of cross your threshold, especially if they're coming to have a discussion. So this guy had crossed the commando's threshold and he was their guest. And I knew that. And I had a choice. Well, I can lock this guy up because he's one of our guys, one of you know one of the targets that we're looking for, or I could uh or I could uh show the Afghans that he's incompetent. So I was like, well, I talked to my interpreter, the interpreter was like, Don't do it, don't pull your pistol, don't, don't lock him up, don't do it. You will lose the respect of everybody in here. That's kind of what he whispered off to me, you know. I was like, man. Because I last thing I want is my Afghan commandos shooting our guys in the back. I was like, oh man. So I was like, Well, maybe I'll get him on the way out. And so we get to the lunch table and we're sitting there talking, going back and forth. And then I decide to uh and then I and then I could tell the battalion commander's a little bit annoyed with this guy. He knows this guy is just he's trying to spread all this nasty talk about us, and he's speaking um at posture, which I'm not a posture speaker, but I knew it wasn't good. And uh, and so he's like the the the battalion commander decides to help me out a little bit, and he goes, Hey, well, you're you're supposed to be some religious, whatever fanatic he says to the guy. You you should be able to speak Arabic to Chanae because you speak you read the Quran, right? And you can speak Arabic, you read the Quran, no problem. And uh I was like, ah, this is my opening. So then I start speaking Arabic to this guy. And oh man, I just overwhelm him with it, and he just can't hang. And then the batanic commander goes, you're supposed to be some, you know, uh religious expert and Arabic speaking, this, that, and next thing. You can't even hang with this American. He said, Ah, get out, you're worthless. And everyone goes, Oh, you know, and they're they're all they're stunned. Like, you know, here is this American outspeaking him in Arabic, and uh, and so then uh then the commander just like he lost all credibility at that point. And so he runs up out of there. So immediately I grab my stuff, I go running, I'm gonna go get this guy down. He's gonna go out the door. Uh, we didn't catch him. Uh, we didn't, I didn't get everybody mobilized in enough time. I got the word back and I and I got everybody and geared up and we ran out the gate as fast as we could, but we didn't get him. Uh, he he had he had he had gone off by that point, and uh it's kind of disappointing. Um, but uh definitely uh one of the things that afterwards, like he still continued to go around and spread that propaganda. And it's like one of those things, like one of the it's not a regret, but one of those things I know it was best for the team. I know it's best for the commando candy that I didn't do it, but man, I really wish I just got that dude and just, you know, because I never had a shot at him again. And I'm sure he's over in Afghanistan now, still like talking bad on Americans, I'm sure. Yeah, but I never got him.

Host 4:53:50

What happened with the candy after that, though? Because I know like you and the commando unit, you guys started even to become closer.

Chane Jackson 4:53:55

I mean, you started going so so after that, um, you know, what really made us gel was um uh I I took a leap of faith and I went to the mosque with them. I went to the mosque with the the candy commander. They were all shocked. I went to the mosque. Um, and I'm and and I'm not Muslim by any any any any stretch, but I was like, hey, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna just show you that I can I can hang or I can go and uh be respectful to your culture and everything. And so then I said, hey, how about you guys come with us to church? And he said, church. Go to church, you know, what's that? Church. You know, yeah, he went. So he took him and his XO and his S3 went to church with us. And I took him to church, and uh that day they they spoke on from the Old Testament. And the Old Testament is the same as what they hear the stories that they hear in the Quran, because everything's kind of based on the Old Testament. And he's like, hey, you guys are you're you're preaching the same stuff we're preaching, and I think that broke down a barrier. Um, it broke a huge wall, and and that that kind of got them to gel more with us and they loved us even more. And next thing I'm wrestling with guys in the street and they're you know, doing jujitsu and stuff out there with us and hanging out, working out with us and stuff, and and it got really it got really close and really a lot a lot tighter as an organization because they knew that we weren't just because they're you know, as far as they were concerned, like we what they knew we were sitting here in America with a bunch of like sitting on concrete with no trees and tall, tall buildings, and that that's all they can do, right? They like yeah, and I think you told me too that they thought all Americans were atheists too, right? They thought we were all atheists. So they're sitting there saying, hey, everyone's atheists, everyone they don't believe in God, and they're they're over here against the and but then when they saw that um and they went to church and they got to hear the scripture, and and and and of course, I mean my translator was translating for them, um, and they they were surprised to hear it. That they were like, Oh my goodness, you guys are speaking the same scriptures that we speak, that we talk about. And they were really happy that that we were we were uh that there was a lot in common um and those barriers had been broken, and that we have families, and it's just it was just the same. But we were there for them. Um, and that was communicated that and I communicated several times that we're there for them so that they lived in peace um and not in horror.

Host 4:56:19

So yeah, it's um it's crazy that that trip for third group in general. I mean, I think you lost, I don't remember, I I think four or five Green Brays were killed on that trip, I believe. That's right.

Chane Jackson 4:56:29

Yeah, we lost a few.

Host 4:56:30

Uh and it was it was just a busy time, and that's just I mean, you know, that was in in western Afghanistan, but even in and east, because you guys had teams out east too. It was just that's right, yes. Yeah. 2012 was a very kinetic year for uh especially special forces in Afghanistan. So there's a I you guys, again, I can't crawl through an entire year of uh combat stories, but I know there was you guys did a couple uh big operations down in Helmand, uh, because you guys were running the commandos, but you guys are also a part of Marsok. Uh I think everybody's kind of familiar with with Hellman and Kandahar and Afghanistan and just how how violent and how tough the fighting was. Uh, you did a couple big operations down there. Um can you tell us about any of the stuff that you guys did down there? I know.

Chane Jackson 4:57:09

Oh no, I mean I can I could definitely tell you about it. Um we had one one in Kajaki province, or Kajaki. I don't know if it's a province, but it was in Hellman. So I guess it's a city, I guess. Um, and in Kajaci, what was unique about it when we did the Intel dump was like they they maneuver in and out of Karez systems. If you know what a Caress system is, it's an underground irrigation system, like uh like how they pass water to their their farmland. Um, but they can use it as a tunneling pathway. And what would happen is they would pop out of these tunnels and shoot like um rocket propel grenades, uh, they would shoot artillery, like, or they shoot machine guns from an in and out of these caress systems. Very hard to defeat, almost like being in Vietnam. Um, they would have like toe poppers in the grass, uh, especially the toe tall grass where you you know you lose a foot, um, pressure plates in the road, um, like we for just when you're walking, um, just just all kinds of bombs strapped inside or next next to doorways and buildings, because they knew that if a team or uh a unit was gonna stack on a wall, they would stack on the wall and the bomb would be laced in the wall. Um, so it was it was uh it was a it was a hell of a a place to be, especially uh coming into the into those missions. Um and you know, the Brits were down there, um, we went down there with Marsak and everything. I remember there was one mission we had, it was a big one, um, where we were the supporting element. Um and the main effort was going into the main city, but we had to hold it down and we had to kind of distract um the Kajaki Al-Qaeda enemy population or enemy uh by thinking to making them think that we were the main effort. Um, which causes to be in nasty firefight. Um, you know, on Anfill, we were already taking fire at night um because they could see the rotor wash and they heard the helicopters coming in. So we're already under fire, um, having to maneuver to our our locations of like you know within the city to start bounding into and taking some you know terrain to create space. But we had to uh we had to, you know, do several presence patrols and everything else to kind of make them think that we were the main effort. Um while the Marines were forward doing their thing, going after that high value target. Um it was it was it was very, very lethal. Um uh I remember uh you know, during the day, I would walk up to the the Cupla and you know I'd be on the top, you know, uh second story or whatever it was, and I'll be looking over and I would see the them shooting all the all the all the weaponry that we imagined at us. It's like I was like, oh man, these these jokers aren't playing. And I remember walking down the stairs, and this is hilarious. I was walking down the stairs, and a guy comes popping out of one of the Carrez systems with RBG, runs up and shoots the RBG past my face. And I remember and it went and it exploded on the wall across uh the way. And I remember feeling the concussion, and I looked at this guy, and you you should have seen his face. He just dropped it, and he would, you you could tell he was just he was terrified. Because here I am, I'm still alive and I'm standing there and I'm looking at him, and like now it's me and him, right? So I just take off running. And so when I take off running, uh I remember uh, you know, John Clark and the guys, the Cam Westfall and Drew, they go chasing after me, like, oh shoot, sir, where are you going? I'm just running after this dude because I'm about to get him at this point. And I don't even care. Like, you just shot that thing in my face. Like, we're gonna go. And the JPAX following me, like, so we're all running through this town. Like I'm hopping over buildings and I'm chasing this dude, man. And we're going, we're going through it, and uh, and I remember like I somehow I got up to like now I'm jumping across rooftops. A disco's going off down south. They're shooting this disco. And uh Kevin, Tommy, and these guys are down south, and they're dealing with this disco, and and this now it's oriented towards us, and I can hear it going off. And I just I don't care. I don't care. I'm going after this dude. This dude just shut up my face. I'm just like now, mind you, I could have been smarter and used my aviation assets and all things, but I at this point I was up, I was upset. Personal. It was very personal. It was personal, it was personal. I didn't just shoot at your face, rocket at your face. So we finally get to the point where he jumps into this door, and and like I told you, it was you have bombs laced on the wall, and I saw the bomb laced on the wall, and he jumps in this this building. I'm like, dang it. Um, and then all the guys come up there, cool, and we're all sitting on this rooftop. Disc is going, oh, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And uh now I stopped and said, Oh, let me pause and think. What am I gonna do here? And the JTAC's like, forget this, where I'm going. And he just jumps. What the fuck?

Host 5:02:42

Oh, he was jumping in the building?

Chane Jackson 5:02:43

He jumped in that building. What up to that dude? And next thing you know, we're in there, we're clearing this building, man. And it's uh, and I'm like, holy smokes. We wind up getting the guy, and uh, and you know, the disc is still going off, and uh Tommy's dealing with it. Um you guys kill that dude? Uh yeah, yes. Uh we we eliminated the threat. Good. Uh I'm gonna call it that. And then and then uh and then uh yeah, and so I mean, I wrote that JTAG up for a good award on that one, and uh and the rest of the team too. But I mean, it was definitely some valorous actions that happened on that day. Now, mind you, the team, there's still an element left back of the compound, still under heavy fire. Um, the disc is still giving us an issue. Um, so uh, you know, Tommy and those guys are, and now Tommy is hanging from the roof of a building because like the disc is just going off like bad crazy, and and Kevin and him, they're all trying to deal with it. So I decided to uh leverage, you know, the JTAC air assets and eliminate that threat as well. So we wound up destroying that building and and getting rid of it. Um it was enemy fortified compound, that's what we're gonna call that. And it told it was it was, it was, and it got destroyed. Um, and and then we were able to kind of maneuver. But that was that was a rough one because when we're in Kajacke, uh it was constant firefight, constant shooting, um, because they didn't want us to go near whoever they thought was the high value target. Um uh and and at the same time, it was unique in this in such that once it hit prayer time, all shooting stopped. It was like real quiet. Like eerie? Like eerie quiet. Like, okay, so that was our time to eat, relax, change up, whatever we needed to do. Clean, clean weapons, clean weapons. But I mean, but also, I mean, the Afghans, our commandos got a chance to pray and all that, and once prayer time was over, everybody went back shooting at each other. Game mom. But that was the first time I ever seen those Vietnam-like conditions where people are popping out of in and out of like these tunnel systems, these pathways, and um, and and I was leveling entire structures. Um, uh, you know, like making some decisions that, you know, really to be honest with you, I wasn't as comfortable with, but I knew that if we were receiving heavy fire from it, I needed to eliminate that that threat. And um, I would call it back to the command. Um, and uh, you know, you know, now General Brooks, but Colonel Brooks back then was the one on tap to be like, hey, approved, or he would call it up to the higher headquarters. Now, at the time, I think it was actually Colonel Fletcher who was running all of the combined uh special operations joint task force, task force, uh Tony Fletcher, who wound up becoming three-star General Fletcher, uh running NATO. Um, so so he was there um making those calls and approving a lot of those those drops and all that stuff that was happening. But I mean, uh, you know, it was it was a it was very kinetic. Um, multiple instances we went to Helmand. Um, and each time we went, I was Vietnam-like conditions, man.

Host 5:05:58

You guys would know going down there, like soon.

Chane Jackson 5:06:01

Oh, yeah. It was it was like it's like it was like, man, these people were out to get us. I mean, it was rough. There was one time and we got escorted, uh, and I want to say it was Prince Harry on the radio flying the Apache, escorting us, uh, which was pretty cool. I was like, man, I wish I could have recorded that. That was amazing. But he was out there flying on those missions because he was out there in Helmand. He was doing the thing. Uh, much respect for him. Uh, I was like, man, leader of a country out here flying on mission. I can't, you can't beat that. But yeah, so we were out there doing the thing. And uh, you know, I mean, we had a couple instances where we were uh, you know, we were in uh like in the high grass, it's you know, just like, oh man, like we gotta figure out where we're going. And um one one time where we had walked onto a pressure plate, um, blew our commandos up into the air. Um I lost, I lose the Marines, but uh one of Marines uh wound up going blind, the other one lost both his legs. Um and we were able to kind of get him out on the Medevac relatively quickly. I was able to call that in nice and calmly, um, under under duress. Um and then like, you know, but that that that whole area was just bad news. Yeah, bad news. Um, and I didn't I felt like those folks want nothing to do with Americans. Nothing. How uh how do the commandos perform? You know, they they performed beyond measure, um, especially in the in those in those high stress situations. Um, I was very proud of them. Um they they they executed as far as I was concerned, they executed well. And now, you know, my guys will tell you different, right? They were like, hey, you know, I didn't have, you know, I guess I had expectations for them, but just making sure they didn't cower during the firefight, um, they maneuver when they could. That that's all I could ask for, right? Uh I knew that uh this was probably not a place that they really cared about as much because, you know, I felt like in Afghanistan it's very tribal. And so when you take in someone out of their tribal region to and insert them in a region where they have no connection, I knew that it was going to be hard for them to fight. But they did. Um, and so for me, it was like, all right, these guys are defending this land and defending these people, uh, and they're protecting these folks, even though they may not be uh attached to them, was something to be proud of. And I was like, okay, well, they're they're willing to fight alongside us and help us out, which is good.

Host 5:08:37

Yeah, you you had another big operation um that I heard a little bit about uh when you guys were up in Baghdad, which is up in the north, I think, was a little bit north of where you guys were.

Chane Jackson 5:08:47

Oh, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, there was some Chris Couch and guys at 2-5.

Host 5:08:53

Some midget uh leprechaun Taliban dude that was running around.

Chane Jackson 5:08:57

Well, I I'll tell you about that. That's so that that. Was where it started getting a little sketchy out there. Um, I think at that point they were starting to use iPhones to kind of see at night, or they they were they they had night capability. Um, definitely had to turn all our night stuff off. Um, and so this this was a mission that it was a big mission because Chris needed us to eliminate some uh, you know, and go grab some high value targets for that reason. They were getting hit a lot up there too, right? That's right, they were. And so Chris was like, hey man, you we we gotta, we gotta, I I know where they're coming from. I need you to go there and handle this. Chris, now I think Chris is shoot, he's on, he should be on his way to take on a group. He should be taking a group command here soon. Uh, but Chris just got out of battalion command um uh and third group already. Um so Chris, good friend of mine as well, um, you know, class of 05 out of West Point. Uh, like, so we're we, you know, he he's like, hey, coordinating with us, telling us where to go, helping us figure out that whole operation. We planned it with the Marines and everything, and then we went out there with our commandos. On Infill, we took heavy contacts right out the gate. Um, you could tell they could identify our strobes and everything else going on and all the night vision stuff. So I said, I turned all that stuff off. I said, everyone, cut it off, right? Uh switched to uh like thermal, um, and then and then and then started the maneuver, um, which was was wound up being successful. Now, once I got to uh a center point where I could get back, call radio, I told Kevin, Tommy, and crew to keep going, keep clearing within the city. Like I'm gonna radio up and we're gonna kind of run here, remain overnight at this location, right? When I'm on the rooftop, I don't know if he told you about it. I was on the rooftop. I was sitting there with the JTAC. And uh, and then uh I'm I'm trying to call back and I'm calling back, and you know, uh, and I want to say Chris answers. Chris Stark answers up, and I'm like, all right, this is the report, blah, blah, blah. Machine gun starts going off. Like, da-da-da-da-da-da. And I see the JTAC roll off the building. Like, oh, he's gone. I'm like, oh shoot. And then I start seeing the bullets coming back towards my way. I'm like, oh snap. So I don't have my rifle with me. I'm on this rooftop. All I've got is this the radio phone. I'm trying to make this call back. And the next thing you know, I'm sitting there with my little pea shooter trying to shoot at this guy. Um, he shoots, um, bullet gets kind of close. I feel it graze my neck and I fall back to the window and I break the glass and everything. Um, and uh, so I'm like, yeah, dog, I think I got shot in the neck. So I'm like sitting there and I grab my rifle. Now I'm got my rifle out the window and I'm shooting back and I call up on the radio, I was like, nigga, I think I got shot in the neck. They're like, I can get shot in the neck. I got shot in the neck. And so uh they come back, Kevin and uh crew and John, and they come take a look at me. They're like, oh, you're fine, sir. You're fine, nothing happened to you. You cry, you're good. J Tag was just fine too, by the way. He he wound up falling and just a couple bruises, but he was good. That next morning we woke up and they went out, checked the and it was laced with bullets. And there was one bullet in the window. The one, and then uh Kevin pulls it out and said, Hey sir, this belongs to you. He said, I think this belongs to you. I said, Oh, that's the one. And I had this red gash on my neck, and uh everyone was like, Oh man.

Host 5:12:34

It's funny hearing the other side of that story because you know it was at night, and so um your camelback got shot. So when they were trying to check you, you were wet and they could feel you're wet, and they were trying to like check your wounds. And I was told you were like trying to fight a gorilla. You were you're so big, man, and you're like you're a very strong person. So they were trying to like check you, you know, you because you could feel the wetness because you're it I think the bullet had like shattered your camel back, and so all that water had come on you, which at night you can't you can't see. That's the version of the story that I heard.

Chane Jackson 5:13:06

Hey, that's all right, that's all right, that's their version. It was there was a lot of laughing because you know I think I smashed the camel back when I fell.

Host 5:13:13

But and I I know initially, like, you know, from the way uh that I heard it, you really thought you were shot, and then when they were started feeling you, you were wet, but it was at night, and I think initially they couldn't tell if it was bleeding.

Chane Jackson 5:13:22

Yeah, I was fine. That was fine, that was fine.

Host 5:13:24

Fighting China was like trying to check him, I was like trying to fight a big gorilla, man.

Chane Jackson 5:13:28

I was like, oh, I'm just gonna die out here. No, they they were checking me. They were, they were, they were, but yeah, he he gave me that bullet the next morning, that was pretty cool.

Host 5:13:37

Yeah, um, it was funny. I, you know, when they when you guys finally got that uh uh objective, there was some a lot of funny things that were said.

Chane Jackson 5:13:45

Uh yeah, I mean, yeah, we we we we got the objective. Uh the guys uh we I mean and that was a long mission too. That I mean, I want to say we were out there for a few days. It wasn't just one day. Um, because we wound up going to we had to because we we I mean they kept attacking us, they kept coming at us there in Bag East, and uh we had to go from one town to another town. Um and then of course, like we were we were up on the on the ridge line one time and stacking sandbags, and and I'm I'm calling in like these uh F-15 fighter jets and dropping like 500-pound bombs, and it was it was it was it was pretty intense.

Host 5:14:20

Yeah, I mean I I I heard you know you were kind of a tactical genius. You were you know faking infils and and really trying to get them to move one way so you guys could sneak up behind them and that's right, that's right.

Chane Jackson 5:14:31

So it was I wasn't the tactical genius. That was the idea from from the team, um uh some stuff that I seen before in the past, but it was also um, you know, working with the the guys and coming up with some good solutions. I mean, you know, uh tactics-wise, I I will always tell you like it creativity and ingenuity comes from experience in the past, but also the people around you. Um, and and I think those good those good ideas kind of came in when we're sitting there talking through the plan. And like, you know, and of course, I'm listening and I'm like, you know what, that's a good idea. Let's try that. Let's see, let's see what they say. And uh the units that we were serving with, like the the 160th, they they were willing to do that. And um, and and even the guys, uh, one of the guys actually I flew with uh a few missions, uh Maddie Moguson was the company commander for the aviation unit. He was my classmate from West Point as well. So like talking to you know, my classmates, my peers, um, just out there doing the thing made it made it pretty easy to to kind of have some creative ideas to execute on. Um and I'm sure that for the guys it's probably unique. They're like, oh, I never seen that before. But I mean, it's stuff that I had seen in the past, or even even then, like I I knew, like, hey, so someone had kind of thrown an idea like that out, and I'm like, oh, that's a great idea. Let's let's see if we can do that. I mean, but it helps, right? Because you know, you're trying to keep your guys alive. You it's time to be creative. Um, because you keep doing the same thing, like Wyman Howard said, you know, they'll get used to it and you'll be predictable.

Host 5:16:00

Yeah, the moment you become predictable in a combat zone, uh, it doesn't last very long. It doesn't last long. You don't last long. The the enemy's adapting as we're adapting. That's right. Um, you know, you talk about a lot, you know, you've talked a lot about trusting your team and and you know, letting them do their jobs. Did you have an example of a time when one of your younger guys did something that either surprised you or proved you uh you know right or justified the fact that you did give them so much leeway in their planning? We mean like one of the yeah, man, like one of the junior guys on the team or I mean that all the time.

Chane Jackson 5:16:35

Uh I mean, I I don't you know, I mean, I think about some of the junior guys we had, like Kendall Mankey, uh uh, you know, and he's probably the most junior at the moment. Um, but that that that dude's a stud, man. Uh he was a stud. Uh and I just trusted him. He was a part of the 18x-ray program and stuff. Um that's how he came through the pipeline. But when he showed up, like just you know, watching him execute, he wanted becoming our sniper and everything. Um, but uh just trusting where to position himself, where he would get the best field of view, um, you know, helped us maneuver in uh in all kinds of different ways that I never expected. And he and that man could shoot. Um same thing with Kevin. Kevin was one of those guys. He was he was relatively junior too, as well. Um uh if I recall, he wasn't the senior guy, he wasn't a senior Charlie. I think it was somebody else who was a senior Charlie at the moment. Um I think it was Ed Fontenau, was a senior, maybe it was a echo, but I think it was I think so. Um but either way, um, you know, trusting Kevin on on missions and stuff, especially with the mission planning and and like, you know, on some decisions, um, you know, when we're executing on objective, uh I mean proved invaluable. Um and a lot of times I would bring the guys in on the initial jump of the plan. Um and that's kind of where you would see some of this creativity of thought. And I remember some of the things that Cameron would come up with. I was like, I didn't even think about that. That's a great idea. Let's let's utilize uh our ATVs and our our our uh our dirt bikes and stuff and and try to get around on that mission and see what happens. Um and trusting that they're gonna be able to do that. And they did that, you know. I will say both myself and Tommy had to go up to uh headquarters for the SODIF, uh special operations task force for the Marine SODIF, right? And they had to execute on a mission, we weren't there. Um and man, they executed with precision. And I was like, man, our team, you know, and both Tommy and I looked and said, they did that without us. Like, that's good.

Host 5:18:46

It's almost like watching your kids grow up, man.

Chane Jackson 5:18:49

No, I mean, they just they they did everything now. You know, I think I think they came back and gave us some feedback on that. And um, I was just so proud, man. I was just like, you guys put that, formulated that plan together, briefed that con up, got it up the headquarters, and I'm sitting on the other side of the fence just watching this thing all in execution, and I'm like, I'm not even there. So it was it was beautiful, a beautiful operation. Uh, they did it with the commandos, and they executed, they got the the they they got the target they needed to get and they got out of there. And I was it was I was something to be proud of.

Host 5:19:25

Speaking of dirt bikes, I heard your guys were all pretty good on the on the dirt bikes.

Chane Jackson 5:19:28

Oh, you're talking about the dirt bike track? Uh man, those guys, man. I heard they were I heard they uh built a motocross track out there. They did. That was Kindle. That was Kindle. He had those guys so I was like, Kindle, man, what are you doing? So he built a motorbike, he built a whole dirt bike track so guys can learn how to ride. That's what he told me. They need to practice, right?

Host 5:19:47

And hit some sweet jumps. Again, man, it goes back to like the ingenuity of a special forces sergeant.

Chane Jackson 5:19:55

Like I said, Kindle was a genius. Kendall's a part of that operation too. I know that.

Host 5:20:02

I have no doubt. Um yeah, talk to me about a time you had to coordinate multiple weapon systems on a single target. What does that look like from the team leader's perspective? Oh. Uh what do you mean like uh I mean I know that you I know you did on the like you and the JTAC. Um you know, I I know you're uh very adept at using fires on missions. Um how does that, you know, what did you is there was there a time you guys had to drop a bunch of ordinance one place or you know, really pull out of area and oh man, that's that's all the time.

Chane Jackson 5:20:36

Um I can I couldn't give you one specific example. I mean, I feel like um I had multiple times where we had to do that. Um, like I told you in Baggise, like we got pinned down pretty good. Um, so I was like, all right, well, we're not gonna be able to maneuver out of here. We're stuck behind these sandbags, we got a trench built out. Um let's figure this out. So um then I had uh I had I definitely had Kevin and Kendall rocking the machine guns. Um at the same time, uh, you know, leveraging uh the the commando assets. Uh but then I I had some fast movers in the air, um, dropped some 500-pound bombs at the same time. But I think a lot of that I learned when I was in ranger regiment. I learned how to do that in regiment. Um, because that's a part of the, that was a whole part of the deal, right? Um, you learn how to communicate with air assets in one ear, your team in another, and you got a command headquarters in that same ear, right? Uh so you're you're like you're you're communicating on two different nets, you got a lot of chaos going on. Um at the same time, you're trying to track the battlefield. And I had like a quarterback wristband. Now, now we're a lot better now. We have better technology now. So I don't have to use a wristband with a graphical reference grid for each building. Like, all right, what building you in now? So, so uh, so we we you know, I had that going, and uh, and and I'll say that's very difficult because a lot of times you have to make sure you know the risk estimated distances. You got to make sure that the guys aren't too close to the building or whatever ordinance is coming out, especially when you're maneuvering fast. Um, even we're moving through baguese, um, we infill at night, like we're moving fast. Now, all I turned all the night vision stuff off. So now the guys are are bounding through these buildings, and I'm kind of I'm trying to track at the same time. At the same time, I've got, you know, uh, you know, 160th aircraft coming down, doing gun runs. I mean, you got all kinds of things happening at the same time. ISR assets flying around telling you who's where and what's where, and uh movers and this, that, and the next thing. So um it's a bit of chaos. Um, but you take you take a pause, stop, make sure you know exactly where everyone is, where the battlefield is, where you can, you know, you can orient your fires and you maneuver. And I tell you, um I got better with it when I was in regiment. Um, definitely learned it for the first time in the 173rd. And I and I got a chance to see Joe Jeracey execute on that. And I think that was what kind of helped me understand how to do that. Now, mind you, in the 173rd, I did not have all that on me, right? I had my platoon net and command net, right? Yeah, I didn't really control air assets as much. Um, and that wasn't a thing that we did as a young platoon leader. But when I went to regiment, I did. Um, and then, you know, going to special forces, that was a huge piece of it. Like you had to really be able to direct that traffic. So I found myself being more um controlling the maneuver than actually in the fight as much. Like I still be in the fight. Like I'm still in there clearing the buildings, doing what I need to do. But sometimes I had to stop, pause, pull back, bring the JTAC in. All right, where's everyone at? Where am I getting the heavy fire? Let's let's orient here on on this on this whatever structure, take that out, boom, like, and then let's let's continue to move, right? Um, and you gotta take those tactical pauses. Um, and that's the biggest thing I tell like a lot of young leaders like you gotta remember, like, it's great to be the best, a great it's great to be able to shoot. It's great to go in the and clear the building and and all that kind of stuff. Let your team guy, let your guys do that. You need to control traffic on the initial infill, yeah, you're gonna be in the fight, you're gonna be out there shooting, getting it, getting running it with the guns and firing them up. That's great. But then you need to stop, pause, figure out where everything is, what's happening, because you know the enemy could be maneuvering on you too, right? Like what is the enemy doing? You have to stop, think about that. All right, whoa, this is what they're doing. They're shifting. They're why are they over here? Where are you seeing this fire at? Talk to me, right? And you're trying to collect and gather information to build and paint the picture so that way you're aware of the battlefield, and then you can start making decisions on what munitions to drop where and how to do it, and what's the best and you know, best piece of munition to drop. Um, so understanding how what that range looks like and the estimate and and like now you're actually maneuvering your elements and also knowing where your adjacent units are because there could be, you know, there's other teams out there with me too, sometimes it depends, right? So um there's a lot going on in your head that they can be overwhelming to some.

Host 5:25:04

What's one of the things that really helps you uh remain calm when you're handling so many different moving pieces at once, dealing with dealing with the enemy and trying to make sure you as a leader um are you know pushing forward the mission intent, um, you know, and and trying to control that chaos.

Chane Jackson 5:25:23

You know, I will I you know what I think it's it kind of goes back to that that that uh alpha committee instructor I had. He told me something uh that has always stuck to me. He said, uh you gotta always, you're SF, you gotta always be cool. I was like, Wait, what are you talking about? Gotta wear sunglasses that look real cool. Gotta have a nice haircut or something like that. I mean, always gotta look cool. What does he mean? And um, so Brennan Galtry, uh hero that he is, um, and if you ever hear about Brennan's story, Brennan like got shot with a 50 cal in 82nd. Um, they brought him to the hospital and they pulled him back out to the uh he got they brought him to the hospital, told him he was gonna lose his platoon, and that he was done. And he wobbled his butt back out to the battlefield and was out there after he got shot in the leg with a 50 cal dish because out there in the firefight again and gets shot again. And Brennan, Brennan's a bad man. Um, I replaced Brennan, we replaced Brendan as a team uh for the commando mission. He that was actually his team. And now Brendan had like, you know, Silver Star, multiple purple hearts, you know, hero. And he told me, he said something, he said, Chanay, I usually wait for the biggest blast to put the, to, to, to hit the squelch. Like, so he would wait for the biggest blast to then call it in, and he'd call it real cool and calm. And he's like, hey, we're under fire. We're troops in contact, you know, and let this let the headquarters know so they give him whatever he needed, right? So I think, you know, one of the things, you know, Brendan, like we he coached me through that. He's like, Chanae, you gotta be cool, you gotta be calm. And then I was like, oh, that's what the instructor meant. That's cool, calm, and collect. You always gotta be cool and calm and not show that anxiety. Of course, I'm anxious, right? I got a lot of fear, and like everything's rolling through my mind, like, oh my God, what's gonna happen? Like, oh my goodness. Uh, but uh just being calm, taking a breather, and then like hitting the squelch, and then beginning, you know, executing with precision. Um definitely um, definitely something that uh I think it take it takes some work. Um, I you know, I think it was definitely something that uh I still strive to achieve. Like sometimes I still get hot. Uh but like you know, keeping that that that that calmness and coolness collected is is is good, especially when your guys are sitting there, you're under a lot of stress, they're under a lot of stress, and them seeing you kind of calm and relaxed on the radio, calling in what you need to call in, uh, getting the resources you need available. Um so I'm like, did I answer your question? I don't know if I forgot what the question was.

Host 5:28:02

I mean what's the question? No, it does. You wrapped it up. I was just asking, you know, how do you how do you manage stress and pressure when you're in the middle of a combat situation and you're coordinating, you know, multiple different moving pieces? And and I think you answered it. Um good, man. Calm breeds calm. That's something I learned when I was going to uh medic training, dude. You know what I mean? Like when you show up, especially in a mascale, you know, you start freaking out. Everyone's gonna freak out. Everyone's gonna freak out.

Chane Jackson 5:28:26

That's right, that's right.

Host 5:28:27

Um what's what's the one story you think that you remember m most from 22 that you guys still bring up or talk about today?

Chane Jackson 5:28:36

I mean, that was a long time ago. What a story we bring up. Oh, I'm not really sure. Um that's a that's a good question. Um I'm not really sure. You know, I would tell you I know that is a big story that they probably remember out of everything. So uh we were out on an objective. Um and we had just got done with this firefight. I mean, we and we got and and this was like in support of uh Dave and the guys over in two, three. No, two, four, sorry, two, four. Um, and uh we're we're coming up, and uh I remember one of my guys gave a warning. It was this this kid was riding on his motorcycle, he's coming full head of steam towards us, um takes a shot, shoots the kid right in the chest. I was like, oh shit, didn't give a warning, and I was like, oh man. Um definitely a stressful moment because it was it was the kid was like 12. Um dad gets on the scene, they're high stressed, and I'm calling in the medevac. And the one thing that I made sure at the moment is to keep my calm in that situation. I was like, okay, this is bad. We gotta save this kid's life. Um and so, of course, you know, my guy was, you know, he was under a lot of stress. He had just gotten through five right. He didn't know if this guy was gonna blast off our ID. He didn't know what was going on. He he couldn't tell what the age of the kid was either. I understood that. Um, we we evacuated the kid. Um, I remember holding the kid's chest and like keeping the pressure, like John Clark, everybody, we're all on top of this kid trying to make sure he gets back. Um and we wound up saving the kid's life. And uh and I remember talking to my guys and just being like, hey, things happened. Um I reported up accurately. I said, hey, this is what how it went down. Um I expected him to kind of come down with a heavy hammer. Um, and and uh Brooks didn't he was like, hey, accidents happen on the battlefield. Um I need you to kind of um you know, just to keep the team together and just uh make sure guys are getting what they need. Uh because maybe they're under a lot of stress right now. And it's been a it's getting close to the end of the deployment, like it's real close, you know. Um Um, and so he he kind of so I was able to turn to the guys and make sure they had my full support. Now I had to pull a couple folks off the line after that because like I told you, it's time to get some rest. Um, because we, you know, you're under you're under high tension, you you your fingers real hot on the on the trigger.

Host 5:31:17

So you're talking about months of sustained combat.

Chane Jackson 5:31:20

It was months of sustained combat. Like these guys were they were getting burnt out. Um and and like so that was one of the things where I just had to kind of step in there. Um another thing was uh, you know, uh one of the stories that I'm sure the guys remember was when when Master Sergeant Gregory Trent came back or uh when he got evacuated. So at the time, Tony Fletcher, uh the CJ Soda commander, uh seventh, also seventh group commander, was out visiting our our our compound. And um I remember you know, Colonel Fletcher was just kind of in there hanging out and uh checking out, seeing how we're doing, and looking at our mission planning cycles and and going through all the things and like okay, checking us out. And he's about to go visit 2-4. And uh I remember us getting a call and we put on our kit real fast, man.

Host 5:32:13

Um just the day Greg got shot.

Chane Jackson 5:32:15

Yeah, yeah. And I remember being in the hospital with Greg and holding his brain, like holding a piece of his skull so his brain didn't like come out. And uh and and not only me, but Tony Fletcher was next to me. Like group commander, he didn't give a damn. He was in there like he was gonna make sure like uh Gregory got got on the aircraft. And I remember him getting on the phone and making sure that he got out of there, and uh and all the guys, all of us were in there, man. And uh, I mean that was a hard moment for all of us because I remember uh our members are standing there and just and us praying together, like, you know, like hey, like let least let him get back to his family or something, right? Um and like, you know, the gauze they were rapping the gauze on him, uh, you know, and we're and and I mean again, this here I am dealing with brain again, right? You know, fast forward from as a lieutenant to now as a as a as a senior captain. Now I'm like back in that same kind of situation. It kind of brought back those memories really fast. Uh but you know, to see the sergeant major also alongside us, uh the the CJ Soda Sergeant Major, Tommy, everyone, Dave had just flown back in and um we're all like sitting there in tears, like, you know, just praying that he can get out of this thing. And uh that was a that was a tough moment for the team too, I think. Uh, because when we got back, you know, uh Tony got back and and you know, he he's a phenomenal leader, and he just talked to everybody about like you know, Master Sergeant Trent, and just like you know what he did for us, and he talked about how we out there perform as a team, and he gave a speech that just you know made me later understand why he became a three-star general, right? Uh, but at the same time, like the amount of care and passion he had uh really kind of helped me kind of turn to the team and say, hey, like, you know, we gotta be there for our teammates and we gotta support them no matter no matter what. And um that was that was a very tough moment, I think, for the team too.

Host 5:34:27

Can you walk me through that day? I don't need every moment. Obviously, you've talked about the worst part of that day, but you know, where were you when you guys got the call? Because, you know, this is your your you know, your classmate, man. I mean, you you know Dave real well, you know that team real well. I mean, right, right. Um, what was that day like for you guys?

Chane Jackson 5:34:46

Oh man, uh, you know, it didn't start off a bad day. I mean, it started off kind of like, you know, we you know, we were just hanging out with General Fletcher or Colonel Fletcher at the time and going through like our ops. And um, I remember like him just kind of talking about like why is there a calculus book on your desk? And I was like, oh, I was studying calculus and I mentored a tutor the guys, you know. And so he's kind of just joshing around about it, and we're hanging out. Um, and then it got real serious, you know. Um, I think uh, you know, we we weren't ready, we weren't ready for that because Dave was just going on a routine like mission. I mean, he wasn't going on anything crazy. Um, and I remember like when we when we got alerted on that, I want to say we went out, I can't remember if we did or not, but we went out to to to reinforce uh once we got the call, but then we all came back, you know, especially when he got shot in the head. I I want to say that's what happened. Um, and I don't think uh I'm not sure if Colonel Fletcher went out with us or not, but he might have. Um, and then I remember like because I I'm trying to recall what went down that day because it's because it's because it did the trauma of uh of everything at the hospital is really what I remember the most in that day.

Host 5:35:58

Yeah, and I think you guys tried to leave, but they were farther south than you, and I think it was gonna you it you guys were probably 30, 30, 40 minute drive. And I think you guys were gonna leave from from what I remember uh talking to the other guys, and then it was decided that I think they finally got the Medevac in.

Chane Jackson 5:36:12

Um right, the Medevac got in, right? The Medevac in uh so I think that was it. We we were about to leave. Uh, then the Medevac got in. Okay, you're right, you're right. We didn't we didn't go out um because we didn't get they didn't launch out the air assets, they launched out the Medevac, which I think uh that was Maddie Moguson's crew.

Host 5:36:28

They went out Yeah, because they were stationed. I think the the Medacy was right there.

Chane Jackson 5:36:32

Yeah, so they went out, um, get picked them up, brought them in. So so then we went straight to the uh straight to the hospital instead of going out. And uh and and I think and that's when Dave and everybody else kind of came in. So yeah, okay, you're right, you're right. Uh, because I was I was trying to remember, I was like, I knew we were getting our gear up. So we got geared up, we were ready to go, vehicles ready, you know, and then they was like, hey, Medivac still able to get out there, and then they brought the Medevac back in. Um, because I want to say that was like at night, it was at night. I think it was like getting close to night or something like that, or it was nighttime. Yeah. About the time we all kind of came down there together. Um, and then that's when like uh you know Tony had uh turned around and was like, hey, get let's get it, let's get a C17 or C130 in here and let's get him out like quick. Um he did. I mean Yeah, he did. He did.

Host 5:37:19

Colonel now General Fletcher. Uh I mean, he at least allowed you know Greg's wife to say goodbye in the hospital. Uh they he got Germany. He flew her, they flew her from uh No, he he made it to Launchdoll. Uh he got it to Launchdown quick and then he made it all the way back to Bethesda uh pretty quick. They kept him stabilized. Oh, at Bethesda? Yeah, she got to visit him at the hospital. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.

Chane Jackson 5:37:39

So okay, uh that that I didn't know. I thought he's I thought she they flew her out to Germany.

Host 5:37:43

No, he didn't stay in Germany very long. They they got him in and out of. I I think everybody at the Siege of Soda pulled strings to get him back to the highest quality of care.

Chane Jackson 5:37:52

Yeah, no, no. Tony was like he like uh Colonel Fletcher, and now General Fletcher, uh did not mess around. I mean, he he was on the phone getting the folks. I mean, he was doing what a a very senior leader should do, right? Um, which I was I respected. Um, because I couldn't have made all that happen. I mean, uh, I could barely get out the gate. But but being there when when he got back was like that was hard. That was hard for me. That was hard, that was a hard moment for all of us, I think.

Host 5:38:23

Did you uh how how what was your relationship with with Matthew Starn Trent?

Chane Jackson 5:38:27

Oh, you know, we we were pretty cool. Um, I mean, we weren't close, not very close. Um, but I I knew him. Um, you know, he was one of the guys on the team. Obviously, I would go over there, hang out with two four all the time and and talk smack. Um, you know, he was a quiet guy though. He was kind of quiet. Um, some of the other guys like Carl Hoover and all these guys that talk all this noise and stuff and uh Matt Start Hill, but um I I didn't know I didn't know Gregory. I didn't I didn't meet him. Um I was happy that he was like kind of running the team uh when when Hill had taken off. Um so I had a lot of respect for him um as an individual. He seemed to be very competent, proficient in whatever he's doing. I want to say he was also like what a Halo Master and stuff like that, too, as well. I'm not sure.

Host 5:39:13

He was the fox on the team.

Chane Jackson 5:39:15

Yeah, he was definitely the fox, right? He's definitely the fox, right? Um so uh definitely very educated um and like he collaborated with us a bunch um in terms of like passing information, working with Cam. Cam was our fox, and they shared a lot of data on what was going on. So um I had a lot of respect for him as a human.

Host 5:39:34

How uh what went through your mind when you saw Dave? I mean, here's your classmate, you know, he's hurting. Uh, you know, Dave had a lot of respect for for Greg as well. Um, how did you support your friend? Uh, because I know there's you know, you guys are still in combat, right? So it's not like, you know, I always try to tell people too, in in law enforcement, when somebody dies in the States, you know, you you wrap a thing around your batch, there's you know, a couple days of mourning, you have time for the funeral. You, you know, you have time to process, it still sucks. But overseas, man, like you don't get the time sometimes to process it because there's still work to do. Right. Uh, how did how did you guys balance all that?

Chane Jackson 5:40:07

Uh, you know, um, it was a very difficult thing to balance because uh, you know, I mean, I was I was also kind of at a loss at the moment. Um and I'm sure he was full of anxiety. I mean, I want to support him as much as possible, but at the same time, I wanted to support Greg, right? At the time, like it's um, you know, I I I wanted to like no matter what, be there for him to kind of help him through this, right? I knew that Dave was suffering um because that that was his teammate, his colleague. Um it was also mine too, right? So I was also going through my own suffering. Um, and uh, you know, but being there for him and encouraging him, uh giving listening and being that ear, especially when we got back to kind of talk through that, and we later had a moral service again. Um, like, you know, you just gotta, you know, just like not not letting up on that. But that was the whole team. Like, every we were all close. It wasn't like we were distant neighbors. All of us knew each other really well. So it was like, oh man, like that's one of our one of our guys, man. Like, it even if he's not on our team, like he's you know, one of our guys that we know and we train.

Host 5:41:19

Did you did that really reverberate through your team as well? I mean, did it?

Chane Jackson 5:41:22

Oh, yeah, yeah. I think everybody kind of it hit hard. Um, you know, you don't ever want to see one of your guys get shot or another anybody on the in your organization or you don't want to see anybody get shot, especially um an American that you've been serving with, but it it hit hard home. It hit it hit really hard.

Host 5:41:42

How did you guys help each other finish that deployment? I mean, I know you guys went out uh a couple days later, and um I know that Taliban was served uh a heavy loss.

Chane Jackson 5:41:54

Yeah, no, no. I mean, after that, I mean I had I had days back on whatever he needed. I'd say, hey, you need us to, all right, we're gonna execute, man. Um uh, you know, and and of course we would get him full support as much as possible. Um, I remember like going to the the commander, you know, Brooks, and they're like, hey, we got to support 2-4 on this. And he's like, all right, gotcha. Um, and and didn't have he didn't give us no flack on that. Um, and then Dave, you know, Dave, not saying he was going out, you know, getting revenge, but he definitely was going out to find out who did it and why. Um, and we were gonna help as much as possible. So um, you know, getting vehicles down there, getting aircraft, whatever he needed, like we were in full support. We got a commandos involved. Um, but yeah, definitely was just it was just it was hard uh those last those last couple weeks. I know it was hard on Dave, and he was getting down to the dirty to the root of it. Um and he and he was able to he was able to figure that all out, which I'm glad I got to help him figure it out. You know, and I was proud to be alongside him when he needed to do what he needed to do.

Host 5:42:59

I know you guys helped clean out that valley, that's for sure. That's right, yeah. Um did losing Greg change how you you know you led your team the rest of the mission or deployment, or did anything change? I mean, you guys at that time, I I think by the time Greg was killed, I mean, I think Eggleston had already been killed.

Chane Jackson 5:43:17

Yes, yes, yes.

Host 5:43:18

And I think there was a couple others. Um and you guys were getting towards, I mean, that was towards the end of your the end of your trip. I know Carl had been blown off a rooftop and you know was dealing with TBI stuff. And um, yeah, how did that all affect, you know, the battle space?

Chane Jackson 5:43:31

I mean, you know, you could tell the guys were getting battle fatigue. Um, I think, I think that's kind of where uh now instead of uh remember I told you that S3 came on and gave me the speech. Now I'm giving the speech to my guys about hey, we can't get complacent, right? Uh like we gotta stay on our P's and Q's. And I was also, you know, Tommy and I were deciding like we're we're making some hard decisions on who should go and who shouldn't go on missions because it was starting to get to the point where guys were starting to get a little bit beyond exhausted. Um, so some hard decisions um had to be made. Um, and you had to be really supportive of your guys, especially when they start talking to you, because now you now you also run into the issues where the families were starting to, you know, become a thing, right? Um families were starting to tear apart um because the guy's been gone for so long, or they didn't know how to deal with certain things at home. And uh, and so that it was like it it it it definitely you know hit the families at home when they they're hearing about these these different no special forces team members dying. Um, you know, I mean the guys are hearing that from their families, right? And like, oh shoot, what's going on out there? And uh so it's tough. Uh it was tough. But um, you know, I I don't think we changed how we did business. I just think think we changed like uh we just recognized the fact that battle fatigue was was occurring. And um, and I think it was a very conscious choice to go on missions and and like pick and choose the right ones to go on. And that's where I was telling you, like, where I started making some choices and talking to the command, like, hey, I want to go on that. I know it's I know it's a heavy hit, but is this a necessary target right now, or can we can we opt in and and do this tomorrow, or can I roll this over 48? Just just to give the guys a little bit of a brain break, uh, because I know they just had come back from a mission or whatever the day prior or whatever.

Host 5:45:28

Yeah, it's all pretty heavy, man. I know, man.

Chane Jackson 5:45:31

That sucks.

Host 5:45:33

Yeah. Um, after you guys lost Greg, both still, I mean, you guys still had, I think, a couple months left. Uh, how did you guys finish that deployment?

Chane Jackson 5:45:43

Oh man, uh I think the guys finished off strong. We still continue to execute missions. Like I told you, we supported Dave and most of it. Um, I think we went to Hellman like one more time. Uh so we got a nasty little pickle down there again. Um, but we continue to develop our can our commandos, um, you know, staying in support of the guys up in Bag East. Um, that was also later in the rotation. Um, and then we we you know we we we didn't we didn't give up on any of that. So I don't think um we our optimal definitely slowed a little bit, um, and and that was by choice. Um, but uh the kinetic activity did not, right? You know, every time we were going out, we were we're in in in the pickles, right? We're we were always in the pickle. So um, no, we we never we never uh you know and what I mean slowed down was like make you know like marginally slowed down, like not not not as much as I would want to have have wanted it to, just so the guys could to breathe, to breathe, right? But um, you know, taking guys off and on. I mean, I still continue to go on every mission, so did Tommy. Um, but you know, we would try to kind of rotate through that and and try to get some guys some time back in the rear.

Host 5:46:59

Did you start feeling the combat stress toward the end of it? Obviously, you could handle it well, but I mean, did you start becoming aware? I mean, at this point, man, this is what your fifth pump into combat. You've seen a lot of shit, dude. Uh my sixth. Yeah. How did I mean did you start feeling it? I mean, now you have kids and you know you've been gone a lot away from home, and um at any point did you start to feel your own mortality?

Chane Jackson 5:47:23

Uh, you know, I I don't you know, that's a good question. I I had normally gotten to the point where I had uh I had decided that if I'm going over that this might be the last trip.

Host 5:47:40

So you kind of like disassociate?

Chane Jackson 5:47:42

Yeah, I kind of disassociate. Um now I do recognize that I had my daughter and and uh I didn't want to disassociate with her. Um and so that did kind of weigh on my soul a little bit, because I mean I didn't want her growing up without a father. Um, but at the same time, um I I recognize that you know you you have to do what you gotta do for the mission, right? Now, of course, that that was my last, you know, I would say tactical fighting deployment, um, that one. And it did hit me hard, um, you know, coming back and then them inserting me into regular society and sending me to graduate school. Like, I wasn't ready for that. I didn't I didn't really have a good uh transition. So um, you know, and I think that's when I started experiencing uh a lot of the the the the battle uh for the I pay battle fatigue and like PTSD and all that stuff post that. Uh but I think during that, um, yes, I did accept the fact that I I I potentially may not come home, that this may be the last. And then if it is, it is. Um, but I you know, I but every every moment I got to share with my daughter was a moment I got to cherish, right? Um I was like, all right, um hoping that you know maybe I would be able to see her, but I I couldn't let um I couldn't let that prevent me from doing what I needed to do. Uh especially with the guys to my left and right, you know, because your team is what they're depending on you, right? And if you um at any moment in time hesitate or have that slight bit of like, hey, I can't, because I I gotta get home and people die, right? And I knew that. And I knew that that's what it would look like. So I I didn't, I I I did my best to not to not think on that. Uh to know that that that I love them and they love me and then I'm gonna I'm gonna get back.

Host 5:49:46

Yeah. Um kind of finishing up, I mean you spent you guys were there almost a year, right?

Chane Jackson 5:49:52

Yeah, no, yeah. No, I got there late because uh wife had hip surgery. So I kind of I got kind of delayed going out um at the moment. So that was a long pump, man. Uh yeah, so we were so I was out there like 11 months maybe, uh, but they were out there for the full 12, if not 13, I mean it might have been 13, closer to 13.

Host 5:50:12

So you spend all this time and you're you're living with Afghans, you've trained with these dudes, you've you fought with these dudes, you've watched this this unit grow. Um that being your last kind of tactical assignment, what was it? I mean, how did you feel when you watched the country collapse? I mean, especially with all withdrawal, you know, politics out of it. You know, you you fought with these guys, you know, these guys are, you know, we had the benefit of going and coming back, right? They had to stay there. Um, you know, the commandos, that was their country, right? And so what was that like to watch all that work and then watch the Taliban take over Afghanistan again?

Chane Jackson 5:50:48

You know, to be honest with you, um I was sad about it. Um, definitely sad because there was a lot of good folks who supported America that were in the Afghan population that were still there. Um, it was sad to see some of these guys who were on my target list now in the Ministry of Interior. Um, I mean, that was a shock to the system. Um uh, but at the same time, uh I was I was uh I understood why we had to do why we had to that withdrawal. I understood it wasn't gonna be pretty any way you looked at it. Um and I understood like um and I and I was actually on the reverse side now on the data science. I become a data scientist at this point, um, working to help with that execution of that, right? On the more on the data side. So uh to me, it it it it stung to see it um, you know, it kind of breaks your heart, you know, especially knowing some of the people still there that you work with and serve with and that fought next to you. Um, but it also hurt that you couldn't help the folks who were sitting here in the US who had family members over there that they couldn't they couldn't get out. Um and that made me extremely, extremely sad. Um and like I wish I could help them, but you you know, even at the time they were saying that you can't, you can't help folks. Um you know, they they they you know they were trying to get as many of the US citizens out and green car holders, everything else, and I knew that they they were doing their best to do that, but it it hurt to see the the country kind of fall like that um back into a regime that they they had fought against and and were against.

Host 5:52:39

So that was kind of sad, but yeah, I thought it was just super frustrating to watch what happened, especially, you know, we fell back to Kaya after having Bagram, they gave Bagram up and just to watch, you know, the Taliban take all of our equipment, all of our gear. And I just can't help but wonder like, man, there's a whole place in the Pentagon that's called plans. Like, how did we not plan for?

Chane Jackson 5:53:00

So I so I that's one thing I don't want to speak to so that's one thing I I I don't want to make that assumption that they didn't plan. I don't want to make that assumption. I I think so first off, you know, being a part of that whole that whole orchestration from a different side of the fence, I know that they did. Um and I know that they they had they they they they they did it the best that they could. So what do you think the major breakdown was? I I I don't think it was uh so I think I think it's a fallacy to say it was a breakdown. I think if decisions were made that so that we would we could withdraw fast. Um I think the the breakdown is in our ability to understand their culture. Um I think where the failure occurred was in the very beginning to assume that we would go in and establish a government on a society that was very tribal. I think that was a fallacy. That was a that was an issue.

Host 5:53:57

Um and I and I think like, you know Yeah, I mean we try to bring a Western culture to people that didn't want a Western culture.

Chane Jackson 5:54:02

That's right. And I think that's kind of where we kind of jacked up. And of course, in that in that kind of uh a culture, uh it's easier for like a dictatorship or uh to take over by force, whereas like, you know, a governing body that people elect may not stand and be so powerful in that in that structure. So I think it was us not really grasping the Afghan culture and the Afghan society and figuring out like how can we set this up for their success so that way they have the strength though that when we do leave, we won't have this chaos. Um and I I do think like that was something that I'm not really sure that we as a nation wrapped our head around. Um and I think that's where the the the fallacy happened in the beginning. Now, when it came time to execute the withdrawal and pull everybody out, I mean we we had to get folks out, we had to get folks out. Now, I mean, that in and of itself is more of a political uh decision, which I understand, um, where like, hey, we're we're we're we don't want to continue to lose folks in this in this environment and for and for what reason, right? We've already got what we needed out of here, we've gotten rid of bin Laden, this that next thing. Is our goal really to establish a stable Afghanistan? Well, that's that's a question that can be argued either way.

Host 5:55:29

Yeah, and I'm definitely look, man, I don't think we should have stayed there maybe even as long as we did. Uh, I'm definitely not against the withdrawal. I'm just it's it's just sad the way it was done. You know, like I just feel like we could have planned for it better. You know, we there's definitely failures. I mean, we can argue all day on who, why, what, how. I mean, I know General Miller left uh Afghanistan early. Um, I know he was putting up some resistance as to how it was getting done. But, you know, again, there was politics involved and you know, there was a lot of I think there was a lot of poor decisions that were made. Now, granted, I don't I don't work in the Pentagon, you know, I'm not privy to, you know, there's gotta be a lot of things that go, but I don't think it takes a genius to realize that, you know, what we did probably wasn't the right way. So I'm I'm hoping that those lessons get learned and we don't repeat that again.

Chane Jackson 5:56:16

Um well I mean it's it's also like I you don't know what kind of timeline that they had to and I feel like too, um, you know, I I obviously can't, like I said, I can't I can't speak on it because I mean I I'm not at that level, but I know there's other other factors at play, right? I know there's other factors at play where people are, you know, they they're forced on the timeline and they gotta execute and and therefore you gotta make some decisions and you're gonna lose some equipment, you're gonna have to leave some stuff behind. But the big thing is getting everybody out as much as you can. Um and and I and I think that they did the best for what they had, given the timeline and the restrictions on on that. Um now who made that timeline or who who enforced that timeline, I'm not sure. But I I don't want to say that uh it was a failure because you know, um, I I mean what what would we call success, right? Because that that's that's my question too to most folks. And whenever that someone says that to me, is like, what what do you define as success in a withdrawal from a situation like that? Because that that's where you now say, like, okay, well, we can speak to what failure looks like all day blue in the face, but what does success look like?

Host 5:57:28

Well, I mean, I think we could have done more to help our partners, and then you know, we got in a situation at the end where you know everybody's trying to get into to Abbey Gate, Taliban's running around. I mean, we lost 10 Marines at a checkpoint, they knew the guy, the bomber, and they weren't allowed to kill him. I mean, there was a lot of failures. I mean, you know, I I don't think we should debate them all. It's not the point of this conversation, but you know, I I think the original question was, you know, what was it like to see us pull out of there? And again, man, I think I I spent time there. I worked in and around Kabul. I knew people that lived there. We asked people to do things, you know, to help us and put their lives at risk. And, you know, it's hard. It's like when I watched Mosul fall, you know, granted we ended up going back and taking it up. But I mean, there was, I was with the unit out there in Mosul. I spent a lot of time out there, got injured out there. And, you know, when you watch that city fall, you're just like, God, man, we put all that work in. People bled and lost their lives. And, you know, I try not to think about, you know, does it matter? Did it matter? Because then I think when you start saying, Well, did it matter? Well, people died for it. So of course it's matter. I'm not gonna sit here and say, All those people died in vain. You know, there are people that we helped in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now, whether or not we should have been there to begin with, that's a whole different conversation.

Chane Jackson 5:58:34

No, no, no, no. I mean, that's that's right, right.

Host 5:58:37

And that's not that's we don't have the time for that one.

Chane Jackson 5:58:39

Yeah, but and it's like it's like, yeah, so it's like, you know, politics aside, I mean, uh, would I have liked to see something different or a different outcome? Sure, right?

Host 5:58:48

Um And I think that's that's kind of at the heart of what I was really talking about. I mean, again, I I don't I'm not really into talking politics.

Chane Jackson 5:58:54

Yeah, but it's but it's no, but it's but it's also it makes me sad, right? Like, you know, in the end of the day, like I'm sad to see that what happened, but um, but I'm also grateful that, you know, a at the end of the day, you know, we're no longer there. I do wish that we could have had uh government in place, but I do wish also that we had done to work to put the right government in place that was good for Afghanistan. Sure. Um, and I think that's really where I feel like we we we kind of drop the ball on that um as a nation, uh, but even strategically, um, but who am I, right? I mean, I was just the the the low leader platoon leader running around on the battlefield. Um, maybe people were talking through that. Maybe they were, you know, having those conversations at the more senior level, and maybe the the issue was um that it was hard to kind of enforce and and and maybe strategically they couldn't figure that out. Sure.

Host 5:59:49

Yeah, so and that and that's and it's complicated. War's complicated, you're talking about countries, to your point, you're talking about tribal, you know, tribal influences, and then you know, you look at Pakistan's influence, Iran's influence, right? And then you have the whole postune culture, which kind of you know flows through Afghanistan into parts of Pakistan. Right. Um, yeah, and and I'm with you, man. I I think I had somebody ask me recently, hey, if you had to do it all over again, would you do it, would you do it again? I said, absolutely. Oh no, of course. And and it's not because I loved war, it's because, to your point, it's the guys, man. I mean, there's you've never felt alive until you've you know had to experience that that trauma. You live life, you know, in the moments, not necessarily, you know, here we get to plan what we're doing next week and next month, like there, man. Like, you know, every day you leave your forward operating base or wherever you're stationed of, you know, you're you're rolling the dice. Enemy gets a say. Even even the most, I mean, how many guys have we lost from tier one units? You know, the enemy still gets a say. It can be the most trained, prepared plan, you know, and ID hits you, or you know, the enemy still gets a say. But, you know, again, I I would do it, I would do it again in a heartbeat. And I, you know, I I think some people I've had some really crazy looks, like, what? And I mean, but if you've never done it, it's really hard to understand. Um, for those of us that have that calling, if you will, I guess if that's what you call it. It's a calling to serve. After Afghanistan, um, your life kind of started changing. Um, what was the catalyst? I mean, obviously you had to go on to do, you know, you got to do staff time. You're an officer, you only get to stay in you know certain places for so.

Chane Jackson 6:01:26

No, I changed my my military occupations. So I so I changed and became an operations research system analyst.

Host 6:01:32

Um, did you do that before you because I I thought you went to battalion. You were like a battalion.

Chane Jackson 6:01:37

No, I was a battalion executive officer, right? So I was a battalion executive officer. Um, and and I think right before that, I had put in the packet to become uh uh a functional area 49, which is the operations research system analyst, like uh the data scientist, right? Um and I put that packet in uh because I I didn't want to be home with the family a little bit more, right? I went I had my daughter and I was like, okay, this this is a is a great life, love being puzzled forces, but they're about to send me back over. I think they they I they the Colonel Bill Lynn had brought me in and asked me if uh if I was gonna go and uh be um, what do you call it? Uh take over as a battle captain for Siege of Soda. Um and I was like, I just got back. I was like, man, I'm good, man. And that's kind of the route you had to take. It's it's hard. You you gotta keep grinding.

Host 6:02:28

Um especially if you want to continue to promote.

Chane Jackson 6:02:31

Well, not promote it. Just uh uh because you you'll still promote. Uh to be clear, if you want to get command, if you want to be in those uh leadership positions in the the tactical unit of special forces. But even past 04, man, I mean, you're not guaranteed 05. No, no, but that's true. That's true. I mean, but I'm just saying, like, but you want to, if you want to stay tactical, that that's the path you have to take. Because you know, you'll still get you could still get command and get 05 and go to the schoolhouse or go recruiting command and all that. There's other different routes you can take. But if you want to stay on the operational, like a stay with a warfighter, you had to, you had to take some sacrifices. And and and and guys like Chris Couch, I mean, he and Dave, they they were taking those lumps. And they were like, all right, we're gonna go ahead and do it. Um, which is hard, hard, hard, hard on the family. Um, so I was like, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to be home with you know, uh with my daughter, and I wanna see her grow up. And so I switched branches.

Host 6:03:30

Um Operations Research Systems Analyst. I never even heard of that dude. I know, I know. What uh people have how did that come across your radar?

Chane Jackson 6:03:39

Uh, you know, um uh I originally wanted to be a foreign area officer, uh, but they didn't take uh dual military at the time. Um so I was like, oh man. Uh so I was like, what's the next best thing? Um and I had a math major as my undergrad uh at West Point um with a mechanical engineering track. So I was like, well, you know, I'm pretty good with the math. Uh so let me go back to that. Little did I know what that looked like in the future.

Host 6:04:05

That's wild. When I was reading and you started talking about it, I'm like, oh I'm like scratching my head. You're like the, you know, the superhuman Marvel comic book character, and now you're like creating systems and oh yeah.

Chane Jackson 6:04:18

I mean, it's that's that's a tough job. So I learned a lot in grad school. I went to grad school in the University of Texas. Um, and I had guys like Marat Karatash uh kind of helping me through. And Marat was, you know, he's a monster on the code, man. Uh works at Apple now. He's a he's a great individual, great human being. Um uh Josh Woodruff and these guys just like watching me struggle. And I and and of course, you know, Marat and Josh taught me a lot about coding. Um, you know, uh, and and we both, you know, and and I and I and I learned a lot there. Um, both Sandra and myself, we we sat there alongside them and we learned like how to how to how to how to implement systems, how to implement Python code. And one of the things that when when we were in the program that was really unique was one of our professors was like, hey, my job is not to just teach you about mathematics. My job is so that you can walk into a Google interview and pass that interview. I want you to understand both the the coding piece of it, the science piece of it, and the implementation of it, right? Um, so we we did I did a lot of uh training or like I did a lot of classes both in the business school, Macombs, and over at Cockerell School Engineering. So I did both where I got to see both sides of the coin. And um I really I studied operation research industrial engineering and I really learned and built that code, like that ability to code, and got comfortable with hard problems and and and taking hard problems and turning them and translating them into what I need to do for execution in terms of computer language and all that stuff. So it was very challenging. And again, I challenged mentally on that one, right? But I also started to seem that my post-traumatic stress disorder kind of came out. And this is kind of where I destroyed my own family because I I didn't know how to regulate my emotions at the time. I didn't know how to go from not go from zero to 100. And I talked about being calm, cool, collective on the battlefield, but then I at home I couldn't be calm, cool, and collective for some reason. And I didn't know why. And I struggled with that. Um and I was afraid to tell somebody or talk to people about it because I didn't want to lose my career, right? I didn't want them to kick me out, being like, hey, dude, you've you've got post-traumatic stress disorder, you need to get out. Um, and I was like, man, I don't want to end my career and uh to my own fault, you know, it took me a while to actually go get help for that. So I mean it's and I think that last appointment definitely brought me over the edge. I was, I was, I was gone at that point, um, mentally. Um, and I knew it too. You know, I could tell, um, even with the sense of like, hey, I'm I'm gonna go be an orser right now, which I was happy about doing to the point where I was like, yeah, I, you know, I don't know if I can handle another one. Uh, not like that, right? Uh, and so I was like, oh, let me let me try to get to a a space where I could be safe. But I think, you know, the biggest, the biggest issue, especially with the military back then and with the army, is being able to transition a soldier from this battlefield of 100 miles an hour, you're going, where you're even coming back and you're training 100 miles an hour and you're going back and I did that for like, I don't know, 10, 11 years.

Host 6:07:31

Because when you're in that cycle, you don't have to stop. I I equate it to being, I call it being on the run. And you know, your your head becomes a bad neighborhood. And so you really only go in your head to get the things you need, but you try to stay out of the neighborhood. And how do you do that? By staying busy, by staying gone, by training. And then when, you know, when you got to go to grad school and you don't have that, you know, you gotta stay in the neighborhood. Yeah, man. You spend a lot of time in the neighborhood, and you know, it it it becomes it becomes an issue. And then guys start turning to drugs and alcohol and all the different things, and you know, it spirals and it's something we talk about a lot on this podcast. I mean, post-traumatic and trauma, it's trauma's trauma. I mean, you can get trauma from war, you can also get trauma from a really shitty childhood, and and and you know, it's good to hear that you finally uh you know kind of came to terms with that. What do you think was the things that you're finally like, yo man, I'm I'm not okay, you know?

Chane Jackson 6:08:25

You know, I think it was uh, you know, uh Sandra kicking me out of the house, um uh me having to be like, all right, Nike, I'm you know I now I'm away from my family, I'm separated from my family. So being separated from my family for a little bit. Um, instead of like uh turning towards uh you know more anger, I decided like I need I need help. Um when I'm in grad school getting angry with man, I was getting angry about nothing. Like little things, right? Little things. Um I think that's kind of what helped me kind of see like, hey, I I know I shouldn't be angry about this, man. I don't know why I'm getting angry about this. Like somebody dropped a pencil and I'm angry. I don't know why. Like, no, like I this is ridiculous, right? Um, shoot. So, and then also, you know, um see my daughter like struggle too, like, you know, you know, scared of this angry man every now and again. Like I'm just over there just angry all the time. Um, and and she loved me to death, but then she's terrified of me, right? Like, not sure if I'm gonna be happy daddy one day or angry daddy the next, right? Um, and like I did, I could not have that. Um, so yeah, I I went and and got help and said, hey, I need I need help. And I still see my counselor today, like once a month. I go see the counselor today.

Host 6:09:43

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, what helped you? What what do you what is what has helped what has helped you, you know, work through some of those things?

Chane Jackson 6:09:49

Oh, you know, I you know, a lot of it did you know what's helped me the most is uh physical training, physical fitness, judo, um, staying active, um, not not resorting to uh like anger, but like going to the releasing the that anxiety um and and a combat-like environment, um, which is kind of crazy, like when you spin it, right? But when I get on the judo mat, I feel at home. I feel like, oh man, I can I can come in. And I don't I don't need to be uh 10th degree black belt or anything, right? But as long as I'm out, you know, I'm I've been doing it for 27 years now, and like I that's where I find my peace, you know, judo, jujitsu, and I'm not worried about like winning international championships, but I mean I get out there and compete too, and uh, and I and that's where I find some joy. And and when I'm in there working out, that's why I you know have the D1 training facility, right? Like I can I go in there and I work out, and that helps me kind of release and I'm around my teammates and we're going through that struggle. Uh just last weekend we held the military vets and players where we had both military veterans and we had uh uh professional athletes and vets who had, you know, guys who had just retired from playing like a long-term sport or whatever, and we're all like working out and doing an intense workout together, and uh we're we're bonding, uh, and then like we're we're we're in a circle talking about our issues and and whatever else. And it was great to share with guys and hearing guys with similar stories, and that's and and and that's how I also get my release, and like a lot of those guys are saying the same thing. Like, that's how they they get their their they can get away from everything, and that's their way of escaping from this this world uh and the things that they remember. And it's a and and that and then that bringing us all together with military vets and players was was great right there in the D1. And and like being the owner of it, I was like, oh man, like I'm able to host this thing, so I I can be a place for for guys to come that are they're they're going through their struggle and they can actually go in there and and hang out and and chat about these things. And so for me, that's been one of the things that's helped me through. Um, talking with the counselor has helped me through it, um, and and just the love from my family, like it's helped me tremensely through all of it.

Host 6:12:01

It's awesome. Um, when did you go back to teach at West Point? Was it after you finished your master's program?

Chane Jackson 6:12:09

Uh that's right. They they had me go back and teach uh in 2015 is when I would finish my message.

Host 6:12:15

What was that like? Um to go back now. You're back at the place where kind of it started from you.

Chane Jackson 6:12:20

Oh man, you know, it was it was rewarding, very rewarding. Um like I I thank everything for going back there. Um, you know, I thank God for that. Um, because you know, that was a chance to touch the next generation of leaders. Um a lot of those those cadets now are in Ranger Regiment or like special forces, gotten their MBAs and running businesses, um, you know, cadets who who uh I still mentor today, like I was telling you about Captain Sella Chow. She's out there doing, she's she's out now, but she's was working in a tech company and just making you proud. Like just this is the next generation of leaders. And uh, yeah, I was only a a few years older than them, right? I'm you know what, 10 years older than maybe, but like seeing what they're gonna become and knowing that they they have.

Host 6:13:09

Only 10 years, but it's a lifetime of you know, as much combat and as much life and loss and stuff. I mean, it's a lot. Uh, I mean it's no substitute for experience.

Chane Jackson 6:13:17

No, you don't, but it's 10 years for for me. But I but I would tell them was like, hey, I'm no better than you. Uh you guys are all gonna be better and and and and do uh much much greater things than I could even imagine. And because because you're here, uh, because I know that you will. Um you'll be senators, you'll be congressmen, you'll be all the things, right? Um, and like, and and it's and I'm proud that I get to touch your life in some kind of way that, you know, like, you know, I think about like some of the guys like um uh Christian Neteo, uh, you know, showed up in my office, was like, hey, sir, I want to get the Rose Scholarship. And I'm just like, okay. I was like, why are you coming to me? He's like, he's like, somebody told me you went through the process. And I was like, I did, I did go through the process. I didn't make it. I said, I, you know, I got through it a little bit, but I didn't make it. But just talking to him about what I did and didn't do well, and like just teaching him and mentoring him on some of those things, same with Simone Askew, right? Um, both of them run the Rose Scholarship, right? So it was a blessing. Just seeing them win. And what is that? So the Rhodes Scholarship is uh a scholarship that is is given to um uh it's uh a national level scholarship that you can go study at Oxford. But only a select few. Um and they and they pick a certain number in each like uh district or or state. So like not everybody can go for the roads, and everyone competes uh um in their senior year of college for this, right? So you'll have Harvard graduates, Columbia graduates, you know, MIT, everybody's competing. For this scholarship to go off to Oxford and to study uh abroad for two years. Wow. Um, and you'll make it into the finalist, you'd have the Marshall Scholar, the Rhodes Scholar, the Gay Scholarships. All these are post uh uh graduate, uh I mean are postgraduate opportunities. Um, but they're of the elite and and very and very competitive. And so so these cadets had come to me um because my mentors had told them that I had done the process. And my mentor being uh Colonel Ruth, he had told them, he said, hey you need to talk to Johnny. When he gets there, you need to talk to him. He's been there, he's he's seen it. I I just went through the process, you know, and I got a chance to apply, right? I didn't make it. Um, but you know, of that I learned a lot about the process. I learned a lot about what, and I think that's why God had me go through the process. And I tell everyone that they'd be like, oh, whatever. No, I mean God had me go through the process because I would later go back and teach them so they would win. I didn't need to win. Um, you know, my path was to go to the 173rd to go to Ranger Regiment. That's what I needed to go. But for these young folks, that's where they needed to go. And they're gonna change the world, I'm sure. Um, and I got a chance to work out with Simone's platoon when she got done with grad school, and she was an engineering, uh, I want to say she was a Cyber platoon leader, and like right there in uh Belvoir, Fort Belvoir, and I got a chance to work out with a platoon and see her as a leader, and that just made me proud. Like, man, you know, that's that that's what that's why we went through what we went through. Just so you could do what you're doing now, Samoan. And that just made me really proud and really happy.

Host 6:16:41

So you uh you left West Point and you went and worked, I don't know what we can talk about, but I think you worked at SOCOM doing um essentially a data scientist. Was that accurate? Pentagon. Or Pentagon.

Chane Jackson 6:16:55

And that's that's where uh that's where uh I got kind of plucked out of uh my Pentagon job. And that was like uh uh and I and I I mean I I was I was ready to do it. I was like, hey, I'm gonna go to the Pentagon and uh work there. And um then they plucked me out of there, and I remember sitting there with a guy named uh Jumal Ferrari and he's like, hey, the the head senior operations research systems analyst, like he's the head orsa, two-star. And he's like, Sean A.

Host 6:17:27

I got this thing.

Chane Jackson 6:17:29

You know, we were trying to stand up this thing called the Army AI Task Force. Can can you do it? And I was like, Yeah, I can do it. Um so he uh has me do that for about a year and I'm doing that, and he brings me back in the office again after a year of that, and I'm working with this woman named uh uh Colonel Kelly Ryan. She's amazing. Um definitely, definitely a stud. And uh we're standing up this AI task force and it's like you know, trying to get AI into the army. And then he comes in, he has me coming in. This is what, 1920?

Host 6:17:58

Just before or after COVID. Oh, it is 2018.

Chane Jackson 6:18:00

So before COVID. Oh wow. Before before COVID. All right, so then so then uh so then uh now this is like around 19. Um I get the I get a call again to go back to see you know Joe Ferrari, and he's just like, hey. I spoke to a guy, you know, uh, and this guy was Matt Benini. And Matt Benini had been running around in the special mission community doing data science. He said, Hey, they they they they want you to go forward uh because you got a lot of the bona fides, which is like the badges and tabs that kind of match to go over and uh serve with the special mission unit over in uh Iraq. And I was like, What do you mean, like do data science for him? He's like, Yeah. He said, but it's uh you know, he's like, you know, and and General Ferrar was like, hey, do you want to do it? And I was like, all right, sir, I'll go ahead and do it. Um and then uh I remember they told me, and when I went and talked to the folks, um, and some good friends of mine, and they told me it's only gonna be a couple months.

Host 6:19:04

No, that's not how it works a little bit.

Chane Jackson 6:19:05

But it but it was it was a shock to the system when I got there. And uh I was like, oh man, I get overseas, and uh they were already building some contraption, uh, this this application that could, you know, house all the detainees and like store all the information. And I was just like, man, I don't know how to build apps. I learned how to do data science and coding, but I said, I don't know how to build apps, right? So they're like, oh yeah, yeah, like you're gonna come in here and build some apps. They figure it out. So I had to I had to get on YouTube and figure out how to build like a flask app. And like I was like, all right, I'm just gonna YouTube this thing. So I was figuring it out. I was like, man, I'm learning how to build these apps, and I was able to contribute to the page and everything. Um, and that was absolutely hilarious that I was able to figure that out. And so I'm in there like, and not even a month yet, it's a couple weeks, and then the guy who's running it in charge, he's like, hey, I I gotta head back. Um, because he's he was a he's a civilian, he's a normal person, right? And he's running the company. Um and he couldn't stay. And he had kind of led the charge on building this app, but he had to go. And he's like, hey, you're gonna have to brief this to the leadership in Syria. And I was like, oh man, like I'm gonna brief this thing. I was like, okay, shoot. So I studied it up, got ready, um, flew over. Um, and I'm sitting down there, and um, I'm sitting in this, you know, in this room, in this conference room, and they're briefing um this commander, and he's you know, he's Syrian, and uh, and they're and they're talking to him in um, I want to say Kurdish. And I'm like, oh man, I'm not really sure how I'm gonna handle this. I gotta figure this out. I'm like, oh and I'm super nervous at the time. Like, man, first time actually in an operational data science role at this point. Um, so then they're like, all right, John, you're up. Talk to me. Are you briefing? Is this like a capabilities brief or like uh I'm I'm briefing them of the application that was created. Okay. Um uh just because because it's something that um that was gonna be utilized in in a in a in a partner uh capacity. Um and so so I I was like, well, I'm I'm gonna take a swing at this. And I said to him, I said, hey, uh, I'm a I'm a I said, do you speak do you speak Arabic? Do you speak modern standard Arabic? And he looks at me and says, only the most educated. I said, oh, great. So I told it, I told the interpreters to take a break. And I took a swing and uh and I started speaking to him in Arabic, and then we we start going back and forth and we have a conversation, and he starts laughing, the room gets real relaxed, and next thing you know, we're joking, everyone's relaxed in the room, and he's just like, holy smokes! He's like, everyone's like sitting there, like, and so every now and again I would stop and pause, tell the leadership what we're saying, and I'll go back to our Arabic conversation. Now I'm briefing them app in Arabic, and I'm struggling with some of the words, but he's helping me out, and we're talking through, we talk about families, this, that, next thing, blah, blah, blah. And then I'm done. And then I tell the leadership, I'm like, hey, there's a couple pointers he wants. He wants to make sure we do this in dual language, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And and then, and and uh, and then I was off. And I remember the the commander top came up to me and said, How man, that was the most impressive thing I've ever seen in my life. I said, Man, I didn't know what to do. But I said, that's how you win the population over, right? So I was able to kind of win that crowd over. And uh, and then after that, they were like, Hey, we need you kind of stick around for a while.

Host 6:22:36

Once the unit gets their hooks on you, man, they don't they really don't let you go. No good deed goes unpunished.

Chane Jackson 6:22:44

Yeah, but you know, it was it was it was great because uh I had a chance to give back in a different way. Uh um and I got a chance to kind of get alongside a mission, but then that levers me to kind of go into the organization, um, into the command and actually become a leader within the data science organizations within the command, which is what was that like to the point that you can talk about?

Host 6:23:06

Because now we're starting to enterms where it matters, um, but you have just such a unique perspective, especially. I mean, again, man, I don't think I started tracking AI till 2021. Now everybody knows what it is with you know the invention of Chat GPT, but you know, this is back in 2018, 2019, when things are new. Um, what was it like as you were understanding AI then and now its capabilities now, right? Like it's it's grown exponentially. Some might articulate a little bit scarier. What are your thoughts on AI?

Chane Jackson 6:23:40

Um I I will tell you as a data scientist and and understanding what the potential it could what it could grow into, um, it is it is a little bit it is a little bit scary. Um making sure you have to have those guardrails in place um so that way it can't get out of control. Um but I mean there are some stories that I have heard that are that are like, hey, pretty frightening when the guardrails aren't in place. Um and of course, we aren't the only ones trying to develop AI technology. There's other folks doing that too, which I'm not sure if they're putting up those guardrails. Um but uh us as as a fighting force, we need to definitely start leaning on it and leveraging it because there is an advantage to it, especially in the battlefield. Now, back in my day when I was running around trying to design different capabilities, we weren't even close to where we are today. Um, nowhere near what's out there now. So I do believe that it is a game changer that we have to embrace it. I don't think we need to, we don't want to be resistant to it. We need to embrace it, accept it that it is what it is, but make sure that we have the appropriate guardrails in place. And hopefully, um I just pray that the the enemy does the same. Um, but I mean it's gonna change the way that we think as strategically, and you're already starting to see it now. I mean, uh, you know, you're watching what's happening with Ukraine and Russia. I mean, it's no, there's no secret. Yeah, it's out there. Like, so it's like, you know, we we either embrace it and accept it as it is, it is what it is, or we don't. Um, and I think right now as a nation and as a force that we are accepting it. Um, that we are doing what we can to understand this new technology and how it we can implement it and and and how we do business.

Host 6:25:29

Yeah, I mean, you you did data science at a high level, and you know, we can't even talk about uh a lot of what you did over there, but I do have one kind of searing question. You know, you've seen the future of warfare from the tactical side and the technology side. You fought insurgents and you've built AI systems. What keeps you up at night? Well, what scares you?

Chane Jackson 6:25:51

You know, uh what keeps me up at night? Um I've seen these robots that clean the houses. And uh they say all they they learn as they go. All right. Um, but I'm like, yeah, and they they got all the guardrails and all the things, but uh kind of keeps me up at night because I'm like, what happens when that robot decides that, oh, maybe I should get rid of the set human that's telling me what to do, and that might be the easiest thing, right? Um, you know, but I I know like that's just from watching iRobot, right?

Host 6:26:26

Yeah, but you know, I've had this strange, I don't know if it's a dream premonition, but you start looking at our movies, look at the movies from the 80s. A lot of that technology is now available. You know, the cartoon, the Jetsons, I think that cartoon when we were all kids, the year in the future was like 2024. So a lot of the I mean, if you go back and watch old movies, all right, maybe not Star Wars, maybe there's a few of them, but man, a lot of that technology we thought was crazy boogeyman technology. Yo, it ain't that far off. I mean, we're looking at potential flying cars and you know, the technology race, you know, even the iRobot, yeah, it's it's fictional, but is it?

Chane Jackson 6:27:09

Like, yeah, I mean, that's what I was saying. Like, you know, I think what scares me at night is not what the US will do with these capabilities and like what we're gonna do. And when we what scares me at night is what other countries who may be our enemy will do with these things. Because we are putting the guardrails in place to make sure these things learn a particular way. Um, and and they and they and they they are they are safe for society and humanity. Whereas like I'm not sure if I trust that everyone else will do the same. Yeah, I think that's what keeps me up.

Host 6:27:45

But even our AI, I mean, there's times I've messed around with AI, caught it lying and called it out for lying and asked why it lied, and it's like, well, I I wanted to, you know, I wanted to give you the answer that you wanted. I mean, I've personally had that happen to me. What AI was that? Chat GPT. Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, and I've seen, you know, again, AI is not perfect. Uh, I use it, but I use it cautiously. But still, man, I mean, there's times where, you know, and again, man, people are becoming super reliant on it. I mean, I could give a million stories about people overused it and how it didn't work out super well for them. But yeah, yeah, you know, as I'll never forget Elon Musk being on Joe Rogan's podcast. I think they were smoking weed, but Elon was talking about the dangers and how scared he was of AI and how, you know, that he didn't think that the guard world is were were being properly in place. And I remember listening to that conversation, like, meh, I'd never been in a Tesla. And then I got in a Tesla and I watched how that Tesla could self-drive and all the technology was in that vehicle, and that's just one small application, and it finally clicked. Like, what does that guy know? Right? Like, I'm just seeing one small piece. Now you're seeing, I mean, look at how far AI has come just in the last year alone. I mean, there are multiple versions, and so it is just like an it's just a fascinating thing to think of, right? Because the things that we think are outlandish now are the things that were crazy, you know, 20, 30 years ago that are now reality.

Chane Jackson 6:29:06

Yeah, but I mean, AI, uh, you know, when you talk about deep learning, um machine learning, um, when you talk about like conceptually what's happening, um, with the hidden nodes within that, that, that, that network, um, when you talk about a convolution neural network, it's got like these hidden layers. And we we and it's just like the brain. We've been studying that for years, you know, and this concept of this deep learning concept has really come about because we have the computing power to do it. So it's not it's not like we haven't been in the realm of thinking about conceptually how to make this all happen. Now, now, of course, the part that really is gonna make a difference is how we protect ourselves against the the potential, um, how we keep it from going too far one way or the other. Um, so and that that's that's and that's what kind of keeps me up at night. You know, obviously our government is doing their best to have those guardrails in place. Um, I have a good friend of mine, uh Tiffany Martin, she works for Google, and that's one of the things that she really manages. Um, she manages the staff and produces a lot of their AI products and does their research, but you know, she's chief of staff um for like their AI division, like really. And like, so that's something that she's like all over, um, making sure those guardrails are in place. And so I'm glad that we have folks, especially in the companies that we have in the United States, that are doing that. Um, I know Jamal Easton's also doing that, and he works at Google as well, and he's he he runs their like all their Android phones and all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, these are things that I know that they they as individuals um are doing to keep us safe, and I'm proud of that.

Host 6:30:50

Yeah, the thing I worry about is I mean, it's not a secret anymore, especially with the Snowden links, like even our own government, but you know, you take it to Google, they're definitely collecting tons of information from us, like tons. And, you know, I don't think we have a full grasp on where that information goes, how it gets stored, who has access to it. And that's what worries me, right? I love technology. I think like AI is gonna do some great things. It's already, you know, making people, it's helping design things, it's streamlining processes. I mean, I've used it for some medical applications recently. It's wild. I mean, what it can do and accomplish in a short amount of time is pretty wild. I I guess I just, you know, we talk about guardrails, and you know, I'm not anti-government by any chance, but you know, I don't have some wild trust in our government either. I think, you know, there's been some things in the last 10 years, and you know, you unpack the JFK assassination files and you really realize who killed a sitting president. So it is scary, you know. And and, you know, I again I think this is part of a much larger conversation. I I just thought it was interesting to just ask you personally what keeps you up at night because of your experience, right? Like, I didn't even know we were messing with AI in 2018. I mean, it makes sense. I'm sure there's a lot that our government does that, you know, folks like me probably have no, we don't need to know. Um, but it is good to hear that, you know, our military is trying to stay on cutting edge, right? To give us an advantages, uh, an advantage against our adversaries, Iran, China, you know, Russia, because uh, you know, just watching like what China can do with those, you know, swarm drones. You know, they've done a lot of displays, you know, visual displays on lights, and it's pretty crazy. Like what's right. Yeah, and then, you know, then you start thinking, what's what's a combat application for that, right? Because Ukraine, it's changed the entire battlefield. I I believe that war in Ukraine has changed the future of warfare. Um, and you know, it's and I think we're seeing that. I mean, Marines no longer have tanks, you know, they're getting rid of whole mechanized positions uncertain. I mean, I I've heard we're getting rid of a ton of Apache attack aircraft uh because helicopters at some point why send up, you know, however many million dollars a helicopter is when you can fly a drone and and accomplish the same thing. So it's interesting. We are living in a in a really, really unique time. I I think, you know, times are changing. Um, and it's it's weird. I it's sometimes I'm super excited, sometimes it makes me really nervous. But you know, there these are strange times in the world, right? There's all these wars going on. You and I talked about offline. Right now, right, you know, we we had a president run on no more wars, man. And here we are, you know, snatching dictators and and you know, we're talking about taking over another country's free country as a NATO partner. Um, you know, I don't I don't know that I agree or disagree. I just know it makes me nervous, right? Um especially for those of us that fought in the GWAT, you know, we go back and look, well, why do we go to Iraq? Why do we go to Afghanistan? You know what I mean? It's you just can't help but wonder, you know, we've gotten wrong a couple times. Um, are we gonna do it again? And how many people have to die, right? Because it's the guys like us that that die for the super wealthy people that make decisions. A lot of them have to do with money. Um, so again, I still think America's military is one of the best thing uh going. I think, you know, when America's strong, I think the rest of the world is strong, uh, personally. Um, but you know, just I'm I don't, you know, I I think you need to have a strong military. I'm not anti-military, I'm not anti-war, obviously I served. But, you know, now I think for those of us that spent a lot of our youth in the in war, it's like, man, are we are we doing the right thing? You know, are we putting ourselves somewhere that we can't get out of? Um, you know, the first thing I saw when uh they snatched Maduro out of Venezuela is like, I wasn't even thinking about him. It's like, do we have a plan for what we're about to do? Like, are we about to go in there? You know, are we or what's stability look like?

Chane Jackson 6:34:31

You know, it's that's right, that's right. That's the first thing you think about. I was like, well, what's what's the stability operation like? But I mean, that that and that's scary too, right? Yeah. Um, because you know, are we are we are we ramped up and ready to go do that? Um I I don't, you know, I a lot is a lot of those things, like, yeah, like I, you know, it's scary to think that we would go through another conflict, especially knowing the atrocities that could happen from it, um, especially on the youth. Um, I know the next generation is prepared. I know they're they're gonna be able to do it, execute with precision and do it well, but it it is it is a scary thought. Um and I and I and I do think that uh that we as a nation have to come together to figure out what's the right next step.

Host 6:35:19

Yeah, 100%. Our adversaries want nothing more than to watch this country divide and eat itself. And that's right. I hope we figure that out more than you know what country we we invade next. Um, although it was fascinating to see the technology that was recently used in Venezuela uh with the the uh pulse wave weapons that incapacitated Maduro's guards. Did you see any of that stuff?

Chane Jackson 6:35:41

I did. I mean, I I was impressed with some of the stuff. I mean, I will say, like, uh, you know, regardless of your political beliefs and and all that stuff, um, you know, our our soldiers do train and they train well, and uh, and and and that that was that that's something that can make you proud. Um, but at the same time, like it is pretty scary, like, you know, because that it that opens up a whole nother can of worms that sure um you know it can be frightening for for one, for the soldiers who are on the ground, and um like you know, what does that future look like for them, right? Um that's what I could I care about. It's like what what does it look like for the the the future of our our troops out there? Our kids, you know what I mean? Yeah, they they know and potentially you might yeah, it could be could be could be one of my own, right? Yeah.

Host 6:36:29

Well, and that kind of brings us into our next session. I I just have a couple questions to kind of ask you uh about your family. I mean, your daughter was born in 2010, right after you got your Green Beret, then you deployed and you know, missed her her four months. Uh, you deployed again in 2012. I mean, how did you process missing a lot of their life? I know it's this is a question I've had to deal with in my own personal life.

Chane Jackson 6:36:49

Uh, you know, um, I think for my oldest, I missed a l a good little chunk. Um uh I think you know, processing that is you know. It is what it is. You know, coming back and and and making sure I'm staying connected to her, making sure I'm spending time with her was was big. You know, when I had my next two, um 2015 and 2018, you know, of course I was a little bit more stable because I was at Academy for a little bit and then um you know in the Pentagon for a little bit, so I got to see them. But then I only had one deployment after that, which was a good a good chunk of a year. Um uh and so so it wasn't too bad um missing because most of my deployments were prior to uh my daughters. Just my oldest was the one that saw me gone the most. Um and she was still fairly young. So I I think I think you know, just make sure they know that I love them and and I'm there for them and uh continue to be their biggest champion.

Host 6:37:46

Yeah, like I said, man, I've never had a conversation with you. We're not talking about your kids.

Chane Jackson 6:37:50

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. All three of them.

Host 6:37:52

Um you you said something important when we when we podcast prep, and you know, you told me if you could go back, you'd prior to prioritize your family uh a little more. You know, what do you mean by that?

Chane Jackson 6:38:02

You know, I think in order to do that job, in order to be a special forces officer, ranger, or anything, um, I don't care what they tell you. Um, you know, oh yeah, family first, blah, blah, blah. I mean, you you gotta be mission first to get that done. Uh, and you gotta you gotta prioritize the mission because you you can't, it's like it's like a pro athlete, you know, and I and I'm not saying that, you know, it's exactly the same. But like when I sit in, I'm sitting down there with the uh emergent vets and players, like everybody was all in in their career. No matter if they were a baseball player trying to get to the elite level, or if you're out here trying to be uh an operator and a special mission unit, like you've got to perform and you've got to be there. And um, and and your your family comes second, um, even though you want them to be first, but that's just what it is. Like the job, the duty, the mission, it has to be done. Um, and if you don't do it, then who's gonna do it? Right. And so that's that's the thing about taking on that kind of responsibility. You gotta know like you're all in, you're all in on it. Um, and your family's all in on it with you, right? Um, and so, you know, you know, obviously going back in time, you know, I wish that I kind of taken a pause and kind of prioritized differently, yes. But at the same time, you know, I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't do what I had to do. Like I had to go out and do that stuff, and and and that shaped me to who I am today. Absolutely. What um how has being a father changed you? Oh, dramatically, you know, my my daughters are are they extremely important to me. Um you know, seeing them kind of go on their own path um gives me a lot of pride. Uh, you know, I I'm proud of them, everything, everything that they're doing. Um, you know, just just spending the time, taking the energy, um, making sure that they they they know that I I love them, I have their back. Um it's changed me as a human being, you know. It's obviously calmed me down. Um, it's helped me kind of get the help that I needed to help center myself. So I I am I am a better human uh in general. And also you want to be the the the best example for for them to to kind of see for for their own future and um and and someone they can look up to and go to when they need help. So um I was fortunate to be blessed with three daughters. So of course of my three daughters, like, you know, I know those are my girls, and I'm just and I and and you want to kind of you know grow them in your image and and and make sure they they they they they have the strength to go out there and be independent in society and have their their own contribution um in their own way, right? You know, and I was like, hey, whatever that way is, whatever how they want to contribute, you want to make sure they contribute in a meaningful way as well.

Host 6:40:49

Do you talk to your daughters about service? Do they know what you did?

Chane Jackson 6:40:53

Uh, I mean, yeah, they do. I think my oldest probably understands it and grasps it a little better than the the two little ones, but yeah, they they definitely do. Um, and they definitely uh they definitely understand, like, you know, kind of what you know what I had to do back then. Now, I mean, the my two little ones don't even remember me disappearing and going for those those kind of rotating. I mean, obviously they weren't even around for the combat ones, and then my oldest was for that, but she she barely remembers those. But um, she definitely was there for the trauma after afterwards, right? Um, and experienced that. My two littles, not so not as much. Um, but you know, because I got in help by that point. But yeah, like uh, so they they get it and they understand. Um, and uh my oldest is in Naval JRTC right now, uh, where she's uh she's crushing it and doing great. She's in the band. Um she's also part of the uh the color guard and the winter guard is what they call it, winter garden in the in the wintertime. Um, you know, so and uh and she's striving to do you know to seek excellence right now. So that makes me really proud. And um, but you know, my two little ones, like I said, they I talked to them about it, they know about it. It kind of right now, I think it's still kind of a nebulous concept to them, like, oh yeah, you were okay, whatever. Which is okay, which is okay. Just dad, man. Just dad, like it's just dad, he's just running his mouth. He did everything, fine.

Host 6:42:17

Um, when you're mentoring young cadets or, you know, folks look up to you, what do you tell them about family? You know, obviously you have experience, right? And sometimes experience is the best teacher, good, bad, or indifferent. But what's that conversation look like when you have to talk about having a family with young people at West Point or I know you're headed there tomorrow? What does that conversation look like?

Chane Jackson 6:42:38

Oh, I always tell them, you know, a lot of you see a lot of these young folks, they're really ambitious, they want to go out there and do all the things, you know, like I want to conquer the world. I'm like, hey, do all that, but also consider where you are with your with your family life and everything else. Like if you are in in the middle of you're just getting married and you're newlyweds and everything, you might have to make some decisions. Um now, if you're not, you're single and you're, you know, go go do whatever you got to do. Right. Um, and uh, and I tell both both women and men, like, hey, consider all things. Like, you know, you will have a life, you know, and when you're in the West Point, it's very easy to kind of get tunnel vision and like, ah, career, career, career, because you know that's what your focus is when you're in the academy. But like when you leave the academy, there'll be a lot of other things, and they're not distractions per se, but they're they're they are they are blessings that you you have, right? And then you you gotta you gotta bring them along with you on this journey. And and and talking and communicating what that looks like is critical on that journey, right? You know, saying, hey, I want to go be special forces. Okay, what does that look like for your family? And does that make sense? For some folks it does. Um, and and for some folks it doesn't, right? And so make that decision based on what makes sense for you and your partner and your children and everything else. And if that if that works for you, then go forth and conquer it.

Host 6:43:58

Um, as we kind of close out your military career, what you know, what was the final, you know, you you've and you've you had one wild military career. Yeah, yeah, that was pretty good. You got to touch all kinds of different things. I was happy. What was the deciding point when you're you're like, hey man, this is it?

Chane Jackson 6:44:16

Oh, that's that's that's an excellent question too. Um you know, I I will tell you, uh, you know, there there comes a time in your career where uh, and I tell everyone where uh you know you you you you're having fun and then it just kind of stops, right? Um where it's where it's not fun anymore. But for me, I think it it it's also it was a combination of things. I had gone to Kellogg and I was exposed to all these individuals of that that were phenomenal people, um, CEOs of companies and out there doing all this entrepreneur stuff and all this stuff, and and I had a chance to kind of touch a different world that I hadn't seen before. Um, and then I'm sitting there in Kellogg thinking to myself, like, man, like when am I gonna get the time to do this kind of thing? And um, and so it was a blessing in disguise to kind of see that like there is a lot more out there in which you can still have an impact on the community and society and still give back in a different way. And then I had to kind of make some decisions. I had I had crescent my 20-year mark, um, and and the and obviously my future as a data scientist or kind of staying in the special operations community was kind of coming to an end. Um, and then I and I was like, well, like where do I want to go next? Um, what do I want to start my next career 10 years from now or do I want to start it now? And um I had to make some hard decisions. It was tough. I had to talk to several different individuals um about making that decision, General Garrett being one of them, um, being like, hey, do I do I hang this up and start this new journey or not? Also, you know, I didn't exactly agree with where we're, you know, where we as an office, you know, uh, the office that I was working in, I didn't necessarily agree with strategically where they were kind of headed. Um, but that had nothing to do with, that just had a lot to do with my background. I wanted to do more with the troop. I want to do more with hands-on, like, you know, in the battlefield. Um, and then that, and and they, and then rightfully so, they they said, hey, did we want to go this way, uh, where they were kind of doing, like they were looking more into uh trying to build a platform for the enterprise and this, that next thing, which, you know, everyone, you know, you can have your strategic differences, which is fine. And I was like, you know, okay, that's cool. Um, and and I didn't know, I didn't see myself going that route. And I was like, well, I really still want to give back to the community. I want to give back to the individual and make sure that warfighter has that capability and that advantage where they wanted Warfighter have the capability advantage, but at a more a little more grandiose level, which which I I really didn't feel um aligned with that. Um, but that has nothing to do with them as as as as as much as it has to do more with me, and like kind of where I saw myself giving back. And I was like, you know what, okay. Um I I see where I'm headed here um in terms of like my path. And I was like, well, let me maybe I can I can make a difference in a different light and uh and and do do more in a different way. And of course, whatever that they were doing was still gonna work strategically for the organization and it was gonna have its success. Um, but I wanted to give back and and have a different type of success, in which I wanted to be able to find opportunities to do that, like especially when I went to the company called Turbine One, where I was, you know, trying to get AI machine learning technology out into the community. So that that really, you know, I was able to kind of get out there now. I'm actually doing that, you know, with the warfighter and putting it in the hands of the warfighter and getting out and getting this thing to the edge now, like this AI technology to the edge, which is where kind of where I wanted to be aligned. And also I was able to get and get into the franchise, my D1, where I'm able to kind of train young athletes and get back to community that way. And then have the game of day men's health clinic where I can give testosterone and help guys get back to feeling in their optimal condition, right? Um, so starting those two franchises kind of kind of was key for me.

Host 6:48:16

Um did you did you pre-plan that during your transition, or did you decide to do that after you already retired?

Chane Jackson 6:48:25

Oh man, I I decided to do that after I retired. Uh, you know, had had a chance to kind of get out there in industry a little bit. Um, uh ran to a guy at the Service Academy Career Conference, and uh he was he was talking about franchise and I was like, what is that? That's nonsense. I'm never gonna do that, right? Um came back to him later, a year later, he was like, I know you'll be back. I was like, oh man, talk to me about it again. And so uh this guy named Gilbert Sangwit, very, very good guy, like excellent, excellent human. And Gilbert was like, Yeah, like I've got a couple of them that you might like and be interested in. And he presented, uh he had me take a personality test, he had me do a couple other assessments, questionnaires, he talked to me, and then he said, Hey, here's the five top five I got for you. And of course, those top five was D1 and the game day, and I was like, Oh, sign me up, coach. Uh like those are those are great, um, a chance to kind of give back to the community in a different way. Um, so I was like, Yeah, I want to give back. So um I've got the D1 in Jollyville, and I've got the game day in uh Temple Terrace.

Host 6:49:27

Yeah, I want to I want to break down those separately because they're two different industries. So uh first I kind of want to talk about the the D1. Can you explain what do I need to change my shirt now? Seriously?

Chane Jackson 6:49:42

We'll talk about D1.

Host 6:49:54

All right, um China got into to to cost him as we talk as we talk about his his franchises. So first up on the list is uh is D1. I I went actually I I visited, man, it's been months. I went and I don't think you guys are open quite yet, but uh can you explain to people um what D1 is and uh kind of what you guys do and you know as much about that? I I didn't know it existed, and when you told me about that when I visited right before you guys got open, it's an amazing idea, especially for I mean you guys service all kinds of different people, but you know, my brain immediately went to my kids um to better prepare them, but you guys do all kinds of stuff.

Chane Jackson 6:50:33

You know, and I mean you you you're you're right to better prepare them, but I mean the biggest thing about D1 is uh it's a place for the athlete. Um when you say athlete, what does that mean? I I say someone with a movement goal. Um, of course, I I I'm a franchisee, I'm not the guy who started it. The guy who started it, uh Will Bartholomew's legend, um, Dan Murphy's a COO. Dan Murphy's a 96 West Point grad. Uh great humans, right? Both of them. Um but you know, the thing about it, it kind of got me into it. And when I when I saw the D1 for the first time, it reminded me of like that Thor facility. That's exactly what I was thinking of. And it's like, it's like it looked just kind of like that. And I was like, man, um, but you know, Thor, like that program was based on how athletes train. Um, and you know, and you talk about folks who come in, you know, you from ages seven to eighteen, eighteen and up, right? Um, we train all everyone, right? Um, we train uh youth. Uh, we call them our rookies from 7 to 11, Devos from 12 to 14, and in high school, our prep is from 15 to 18, getting them prepared for division one athletics. And so that the training is intense. Um, it's it's gonna help kind of with their speed and agility. But for adults, it's just a place where it's very familiar. Um, it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a little harder than than normal, but you're gonna get everything you can in a 54-minute workout. Um, and and that's just in the group training, not to mention the one-on-one training that we do. We also train teams too as well. We train athletic teams and we we get them to the next level too. So it's like, it's like, you know, it's it's it's that home away from home that I kind of found in my in and of itself. So when I saw it, I was like, man, I gotta be a part of this, right? Because for me, I felt like, wow, this brings me back home to being on a team, being an ODA, going back to bringing my team to where we could get and improve ourselves and training our team. Like, so when I was in that Thor facility and Kevin had talked about it, I brought everybody in there and everyone started to raise the bar, right?

Host 6:52:41

So, and what for the listeners, what Thor was, Thor was, I don't know if it's is it still a program in the military? I don't know if it still exists in correctly. Yeah, so what special operations did especially, they brought this program called Thor.

Chane Jackson 6:52:52

It has an acronym, I don't know what it stands for, but it's basically practical rehabilitation, something something I'm right.

Host 6:52:58

Uh but they would bring, you know, professionals, not even military, they were civilians, and they would who specialized in you know um Olympic level and collegiate level athletes, which is what SOCOM is, man. I mean, it's the pros. Professional, professional, professional, and really, you know, focused on different core competencies and basically just make them bigger, stronger, better, faster, you know, depending on, you know, um like the needs. I think you met with the Thor group uh when you first got to your ODA, those guys needed something. You got with those dudes, they designed a program and raised the entire athletic performance of your team. And essentially, is that kind of what you're saying? What D1 does?

Chane Jackson 6:53:36

Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing with D1 does. And the beauty of it, like, you know, Lance Stuckey was my coach uh in Thor. And Lance, man, he gave, he put us to the ringer. Um he was a he was assigned to us and he he and he just took it on, right? So that's the kind of same thing we do with D1. Like, you want we'll have coaches assigned to teams and we'll train them up. Same thing with individuals, they'll have a program and they'll be able to go into their applications, see kind of what what the regiment is, and um, and we also have that group training for folks who just want to be a part of a community of a of folks who are who are training. Um, and you know, we we give folks the full range. Um it's it's not it's not cross-fit, it's cross-training, right? So we're we're you know, we do like a dynamic warm-up section to kind of get the body warm. Um we're going up and down the turf, um, getting that mobility, stretching, flexibility. Then we move into a performance section. For the kids, it's where they work on their speed and agility. For adults, it's where we warm up the muscles that we're about to activate. And then we go into a lift, a strength section. We're actually getting on the barbell, doing squats, bench, power cleans, like some of these more like heavier lifts. And then we're also working some of the auxiliary, where we're working hamstrings, triceps, biceps, all that stuff as well, depending on the day if it's upper body or lower body. Then we get into our card, our core and conditioning, where we're actually going to actually now tighten up in terms of like maybe have like a quick hit or something like we're gonna hit some cardio, work up that sweat, and then we we cool down with a stretch. So all that's done in 54 minutes, right? Um, and so it's it's pretty intense, um, nice pace, fast paced, uh, but you do feel like you're you're out there as an athlete again. And we also have like the HIRAC stuff that we do as well, and the DECA, you gotta have your Spartan events, gotta have your Spartan events. What is that? So, so DECA is uh, you know, like you're you ever you ever heard of the Spartan races? Oh yeah, I've done that. Yeah, it's like that that's the that's the part of the DECA, the DECA challenges, right? So we'll have like um the DECA mild or the deca strong where you go and you do each of these events and you'll run in between. Uh same thing with the high rocks, like you know, you'll run a thousand meters and come back and row a thousand and run a thousand and push a sled and uh do uh 80, 80, 80, 80 meters worth of burpee broad jumps. And so DECA is very similar, but but drastically different because you know, sometimes they have DECA strong. We're working on the strength exercises or the atlas. Um so we host some of those things too as well for for adults who are still kind of competing in that that world.

Host 6:56:04

Yeah, I thought it was wild when I we were kind of talking about D1, because again, I wasn't totally familiar with it. Um, and you have everybody. I mean, you have you know kids who are competing and you know, younger kids that are competing in sports. You've got high school athletes, you know, competing for D1, T D2 scholarships, you have, you know, adults from everything from you know office dads to stay-at-home moms coming in there to to get their training. You I thought it was very unique um how you know it you've got something in there built in there for the whole family, uh, if need be, right? Um so I I thought that was cool. What does it look like if a coach wanted uh to have you guys train the team?

Chane Jackson 6:56:45

How what is that? Oh, they just talked to us. Um, we would come up with a training plan, training regiment, they can train in the facility, or we could train them on the field, turf, court, wherever they're at. Um, and and then we we would just set up a regiment to kind of stay with them and and stay with that program. We'd also make sure the coach is tied into the technology so they can see the regiment, they can see the programming um for their athletes, they can try to tailor it as need be. Also, if they needed an athlete that needed a little bit more attention, we could we could help with that athlete as well. So there's a couple different things there, right? So, but we partner with the coach, we we we bring it all together for them and we help come up with a plan so that they that their team gets to the next level, which is like kind of the focus.

Host 6:57:27

Yeah, that's awesome. And then on the individual level, is it more, you know, coming in and meeting and talking to a coach? Uh, do you guys sit down and like design a program together? Like, hey, what are your goals? What are you trying to do?

Chane Jackson 6:57:39

Oh, no, more than that. Um, when you come in, the first thing I'm gonna do is sit you down, talk about your goals. What is it you're trying to do? No matter who you are, kid, adult, in between, right? Sit you down in the goal setting room. And this is kind of where I talked about like how it's like an ODA. Like, I sat down with Lance and talked about what the goals were for the team. Like, hey, this is what we I would like us to achieve. He brought everybody in, made sure everybody knew, hey, this is what we're gonna go do, right? Then I'm gonna assess you as an athlete or an adult. You know, obviously they're different assessments, right? Hey, we're not trying to kill our adults, right? But we're different assessments. But yeah, I'm gonna assess you as an athlete. So kind of like a mini combine uh for especially our young youth athletes. I'm giving you like a mini combine. I want to see how fast you run your 10-yard, and I got lasers set up out there for you. So I got the technology to test you. I want to see how high you can jump. I got a jump mat set up with technology there as well. I want to see your broad jump. I want to see all these different capabilities, and I'm assessing you. And once I get that assessment, I sit you down and then I talk about what the plan is based on the schedule, based on your art of your training regimen, and we come up with that plan. Same thing with adults, come up with that plan like, hey, what are we committed to do? What are we gonna do? And let's let's talk about how we're gonna get to our goal and let's talk about how we're gonna get there from day one being today today. You know, whatever day is is the goal set date, right?

Host 6:59:03

Yeah, it was super cool when I went and visited the facility. It wasn't fully open yet, but man, you have like a mix of technology, modern equipment, coaching. I mean, it is. It kind of reminds me of, you know, what the regiment and the unit and some of these places went and understanding that whole body health, whole body movement. I mean, it's like a mix of it's not any of these things, but it's like a mix of Olympic lifting, CrossFit, cardio, but very targeted and focused training with technology and metrics to really track that. I thought it's I I didn't know it existed. It's super unique and it's something uh we're looking to take part of uh with my own kids. It's just it's it's really one of a kind. Um so where where are you where is your franchise located at?

Chane Jackson 6:59:47

Uh so we're located in Jollyville. So we are on uh 620 and Anderson Mill Road, right there in Plaza Valente. Which is in Austin, right? Which is in Austin, Texas. Um, so uh so yes, Plaza Valente, Austin, Texas. So Jollyville, yes. Um so so um so Plaza Valente, um it's it's uh 11521 North FM620. Cool. And we'll uh right next to the Torchy Taco.

Host 7:00:14

We'll make sure we throw the links in here for for those folks that are in Central Texas that are looking for one. But D1 is a national franchise. There is that in a lot of a lot of different states. So, you know, if you're hearing this in whatever state you are, um, especially if you're near one of the bigger cities, I would definitely look into it, especially if you have aspiring kids that are athletes or you're an adult that wants to get in shape and you know you got tired of the regular old go to the gym by yourself and figure it out. Uh yeah. It's uh it's super cool, uh, especially the way that technology integrates with the physical training, with the coaching. Uh really takes the guesswork out of it.

Chane Jackson 7:00:47

Well, one of the guys uh that comes in every day, John Devrez, he comes in every day, every day. Uh he's my man and we work out together when I'm there, right? Uh Johnny says, like, it takes the thinking out. He says it is so much variety in the workouts. Um every day is different. And um and every three weeks, it's a totally different workout. So every two weeks. So you do the same kind of regimen with different with some variation for two weeks, but then that third, that third week is a totally different workout, right? And every day again, right? So, but every day is different. So the leg day on Monday and a leg day on Thursday isn't the same. And that's and that and that and I tell you, our athletes love that, right? He and he loves it. He's like, I don't even have to think about it. I just come in, I know I'm gonna get work. And so that's what he loves doing.

Host 7:01:35

What kind of successes are you seeing? I mean, I know you guys haven't been open super long, but are you starting to see differences in some of the, especially the kids that are that are coming in?

Chane Jackson 7:01:42

Oh, no, yeah, for sure. Um, we've had a couple of guys get selected uh to go um a D1. Um, we got, you know, I mean, the biggest thing is I had a kid coming in, um uh uh Joel Antavarios, he was coming in doing one-on-one training, um, was going in as a freshman in high school, got on the freshman team, started on the freshman team, crushed it so much on the on the field, but continuing to train while he's like playing football in the season. By the end of the season, they they they they pull him up to the varsity and like hey, you're you you know, skip JV, you're up on the varsity roster right now. I was like, wow, that's incredible. So it's a big deal in uh in football in Texas. It's a religion here. Uh it is.

Host 7:02:22

Yeah, that's that's awesome to hear. Um, anything else that that uh that I missed, man, that you think's important? Um folks?

Chane Jackson 7:02:30

No, I just say, you know, it's it's it's a place for the athlete, but the same thing is a it's about community and bringing people together and helping out with the community. And I think that's the biggest thing that people need to understand is like we we're here because we want to give back, you know, a healthy lifestyle to the folks around us. Um and that's really what it's all about. Like at the end of the day, we do want to see our athletes get into division one, especially in the youth, but we also want to see folks that that are already past that, you know, they they're already like either done with their college experience or whatever. We still want to see them like have a healthy lifestyle. And that's what it's all about, bringing health to the community, not trying to bring uh bring the munchies to the community, but trying to bring health.

Host 7:03:09

Yeah, and I think it's important, man. I mean, it goes back to a conversation we had earlier in this podcast about mental health. I mean, they're finding, you know, amongst, you know, obviously counseling and some of these other things, you know, one of the biggest things too is is is moving, right? Working out um how it's good for you mentally, physically, emotionally. Uh, I know the days that I I miss it. Well, whatever, which I try not to, you know, don't miss it. Yeah, man. It, you know, it really sets your day up for success. Um, I try to get up early and get it out of the way early in the morning. Um, but yeah, that that physical movement, especially for you know, the vets, first responders out there that are listening, super important, right? Uh it's it's a a good foundation for mental health. Um so cool, man. We'll we'll make sure uh you guys have a social media platform, we'll get that as well.

Chane Jackson 7:03:51

Oh, yeah, no, I get that too. Okay. Yeah, we do, we do. All right, awesome. Uh, and and it's uh uh D1 Joliville TX.

Host 7:03:58

Okay, we'll make sure we put that link down in the description for this video. If you're watching on YouTube, it'll be in the description. If it's you're listening to it, I'll make sure it's in the description for the audio podcast as well.

Chane Jackson 7:04:07

I appreciate that.

Host 7:04:08

You want to swap to your other. No, it's funny, because the the folks on the YouTube will see it, but the audio people they they will. Uh, now that we did another Superman change, for those of you guys on that get to see it on YouTube, Shauna now has his other franchise shirt on the side. That's right. He's got a lot of hats that he wears. Again, man, he runs two different franchises. Tell me about um your game day men's health franchise. And I'm super interested into not only why you got into it, but you, you know, uh what you guys do and and what you guys offer.

Chane Jackson 7:04:48

So, so uh the story about the game day kind of comes, it's a little deeper. Um uh kind of personally hits home. Um, you know, with game day, you know, when I was when I was in the military, um, I started like, you know, I had some massive weight gain. Um uh, you know, obviously slowed down a bit, you know, a lot of experience in brain fog. I didn't really know what was going on. Um and I went to the doc and said, hey, I'm not really sure what's happening. So doc tested my testosterone levels. Um typically your testosterone levels, you want to have around 800 to 1000 uh NGDL, right? That's about where you want to be. Um, and I think you know, I was about 150, which is critically low, right? Um he's like, oh man, your testosterone levels aren't looking good. And so went to the lab, got the testosterone levels. You know, he's like, all right, I'm gonna reference, I'm gonna refer you to an endocrinologist. I went to endocrinologist. Endocrinologist is like, oh, let me test your levels, go to the lab, go back to endocrinologist. He's like, All right, we you need to get some stuff. I'm gonna give you clomed instead. And I'm like okay, I got on clomed. And he's like, Well, you gotta get the meds. And I was like, Where's the meds at? I was like, well, I gotta go to the pharmacies, I figure out where to get the meds, and the next day I gotta get the meds. That was like a whole six-month process before I actually got some help with it, right? And that really didn't do much for me, um, you know, uh at the time. Uh, and I still kind of felt sluggish, still felt slow and everything. Um, and so I I was suffering from this testosterone deficiency, but I was also depressed at the time and you know, kind of feeling down and low, right? So uh when I heard about game day men's health, where it was all in one in a clinic where you get your consultation, your lab, and you can get the meds right in house. Where you can come in, they're gonna pull your blood, get you your results read on your testosterone, your PSA, and your hemoglobin and everything right there. Um, and they can do a full panel if you need to, and they'll send it off. I was like, wow, this is like everything in house. So we we'll have a gentleman or uh come in and like 45 minutes in and out with with the meds all done, right? Could have get the testosterone shot, whatever they needed in-house done out the door. Um, and I was like, wow, that that's amazing. That that there's there is an organization that's doing that, and I was like, I want to be a part of it, right? I want to be a part of something where folks can come in. It's very uncomfortable to talk about it already, um, especially when guys are experiencing that. Um it's uncomfortable to talk about, you know, erectile dysfunction issues, it's uncomfortable to talk about hair loss. You know, these are things that you don't want to. And us guys, we just we're totally just suck it up. And that's still what we just told, like, hey, your testosterone levels are 200. That's about where you should be, right? At your age or whatever, right? Uh, but you don't feel good. And and like, and so um a lot of times, like when we when I I like when Dr. Jones says his best, like when you talk about the world of medicine, they're fighting disease and they're trying to get you to a baseline. Whereas we are looking to get folks to optimal performance. We want to get you beyond baseline, we want to get you to the point where you can seek and pursue excellence. And going back to that central theme that we talked about in the beginning, wanted to seek and pursue excellence. So, this is a way that I can give to the community so they can go out and seek excellence. So when you're having these issues and you're still having these struggles, it's a place where you can go and you have the comfort of being like one, you come in and it's uh, you know, you got football on, you can relax, there's snacks in the back, and you don't feel like you're in this hospital environment, but you feel like you're a place where you belong. You feel comfortable, and then like you go see the doc. And of course they're gonna pull the blood and all that kind of stuff, but you go see the doc, you talk about whatever issues you're having, and he can prescribe something to you right away. Now we've got a uh uh a PA on site, and we also have our uh medical director there on occasion when he can come down, right? Um, and that medical director is a good friend of mine. We've been friends since high school, uh Joe Jones, and uh Joe wound up going to West Point after high school, wound up going to the infantry, got his ranger tab, and then then went to med school and became a doctor. So he's a monster. Uh and he knows what it's like to be in the infantry and to be out in the bush, right? So it's good to have a partner like that, you know, uh Jason Morales, Sandra Jackson. Jason and I went special forces together. Um, and and he's a Green Beret now. He's still in and still doing the thing, which uh makes me proud. He's a colonel in Peru and uh working as a foreign area officer. So, and then it's Sandra. Sandra's working at Visa, and she's all a part of the company too, as well, and she's a huge part of it too, and she keeps us all organized. So we're we're uh we're kind of uh doing what we can for the community, and that's really what we kind of preach out to the guys that come in. It's like, hey, come on in, see us. We're we're not here to uh tell you what makes sense uh to your body. We're gonna speak to what makes it what makes it optimal for you. We want to get you to the point where you feel you're at you're at your best. Um, not just bring you up to baseline, not try to fight or prevent anything. We're we're to bring you to your best. And when guy guys understand that right away. They come in and like, yeah, I I want to be out there throwing the weights again. I want to be out, you know, running around and multitasking like I used to when I was younger. Because a lot of times you'll hear guys come in, they're like, oh, I'm sluggish, I'm tired, I'm you know, sleepy, and like, yeah, oh yeah, I know why. I I can already tell you why. Uh let's go see where your levels are. And then right away you you know, like, hey, this is this is gonna help you immensely.

Host 7:10:19

That's awesome. Are you guys looking at whole whole health wellness besides just testosterone, right? And there's vitamin deficiencies, and I think everything all that stuff plays a role right as well.

Chane Jackson 7:10:30

No, no, we we do. So so I'm glad you said that. I mean, so we look at uh we also provide vitamins, um, we do look at vitamins. So when we do a full panel, we we do everything. You know, we not just the endocrine in the endocrine system, we test cholesterol, we test everything, heart health, everything, right? Because we we do look at whole health. Because like when we're talking auto performance, I can't tell what's optimal if I know all I can consider all the things. Sure. So we provide peptides um that will release or you know from the pituitary gland, particular hormones that you may need for your body to perform at a more optimal level. Um, there's there's other things that we're also trying to do in terms of like, you know, giving you those vitamin deficiencies. If you have them, we can supplement with that as well. Um, so we do a lot uh with with the body just to get folks to where they feel like, hey, they they are at their 100. And if not 100, 100 tip.

Host 7:11:28

Well, and I think a lot of a lot of men out there, I mean, I've talked to a lot of men in their 40s that don't really understand um, you know, testosterone and and the role it plays and how you know low testosterone could cause all other problems in your in your health system, right? Like, right. You start getting testosterone below 100. I mean, it to you know, you you you name some of the symptoms, but it also can cause long-term health symptoms, you know, and you start getting your your I've been on testosterone for a while, you get your testosterone, you know, optimized. I mean, I'm I'm 47 years old and there's I can crush young dudes at the gym sometimes. That's right. Uh, because when you to your point, when you are optimized and you are moving at your best, uh, you just feel better and you're able to do the things to get out of bed early in the morning and go to the gym and to find the the energy to play basketball with your you know 12-year-old kid or or whatever that you know before I did that, you know, you're just tired all the time and then and you're grumpy. And that's right, you know, it takes a takes a toll on your relationship, your your marriage when you're feeling your best and you're performing your best. Uh it really matters. And you know, it's I don't know, maybe it's just you know, kind of how my brain works, but it's funny when I meet men, especially you know, guys in their you know, 40s that are working out in the gym and they're like, Yeah, man, this is really hard. And you're like, Are you on testosterone? I'm like, no. I'm like, why? It's it's 2026. Why would you not try to that's right, you know, and it's not like testosterone, some new thing. It's been around for years and years and years. But I think you know, steroids, you know, falls under that old connotation of like, oh, it's you know, it's illegal steroids. It's not that I think people don't understand that testosterone replacement is so different than the fact that you're not juicing to win a bodybuilding competition, you know, competition. A lot of people don't even realize that a lot of guys that are on TRT, they're on low dose TRT. You're not taking massive amounts. Sometimes, you know, dependent on your body. And again, that medical evaluation, you may not need a lot. Like, you know, what you may need and what I may need could be completely different.

Chane Jackson 7:13:18

And that's why it's so important to not like, you know, buy shit from Mexico and Yeah, and that's why we keep that we and and also our physician assistant and our medical director will monitor those levels and make sure you're you're at the appropriate levels you need to be so that you're like you're you're performing and you're you're feeling good, but you're not you know exceeding what you need to be, right? You're not doing too much because some of that will, if you get too much testosterone in your system, then you you start to produce estrogen, right? And then now we got to counterbalance that too, as well, right?

Host 7:13:51

So well, too much estrogen could cause other problems as well. That's right. That's right.

Chane Jackson 7:13:56

And so, and so, but and but that's only something. Some guys we don't prescribe it for, uh, to be honest with you. Like some guys will come in, and if that's if they have like cardiovascular issues or whatever, and we may produ we may uh prescribe a peptide or something else that will activate uh you know those those those hormones or the correct hormones that they may need. But we you know, but you know, but a lot of times, you know, like you know, in most cases, yes, I will say guys will need TRT. Um, but in some cases it may not be the case. Sometimes it's just like, hey, but we also do weight loss as well. Uh so and and and in those occasions where we have guys will come in, um, they're already on TRT, but they they have an issue with the weight, we'll we'll offer them different GLPs uh or a GPT one or whatever it is to kind of help them uh counteract with the weight, the weight gain. And um, so so we are big on that too, as well. And we also do that for women too. So women come in also for weight loss.

Host 7:14:53

Yeah, that's another thing I've learned too in the last year, you know, the women, like TRT replacement, you know, can can help women as well. Now, obviously, you don't want to give too much TRT to a woman who starts growing a beard and all these different things, but like again, very small, low doses of of testosterone can really move the needle for men and women, you know, depending on your body composition and you know what's going on to specific. That's one thing I think it's really important uh to have labs. And I think it's really cool that you guys do that in-house because a lot of TRT clinics, you got to go somewhere else, you got to get your labs. That's right. Then you got to wait for them to get their labs done, and then you gotta wait to have your eval, then you gotta wait to get your meds. And so that's right, that's right. It's it's really cool to have all that in one building where a guy can come in, get seen, get his blood drawn, be in and out in 45 minutes with a a solution that doesn't take you know a month.

Chane Jackson 7:15:37

Uh no, and it's a concierge service, right? You you're getting that concierge service, you're getting like getting a chance to sit down with the doc right there, you're getting the chance to get your meds right there, and like you're walking out feeling good already, already with your first dose in the system, and you're like, wow, that that that was it. Yeah, and it's too easy. Yeah, super cool. And and game day, is that a national uh is that so it's a national franchise, and they're all across the United States and Canada. Um, so they're they're everywhere. Um there you go for all the can I we got a huge Canadian audience, so that's pretty cool. I didn't come come down to see us. So we're we're located in Temple Terrace, Florida, uh, which is right there in Tampa. Um and uh we're veteran-owned, um, all 100% veteran-owned. Um we take care of our vets there as well. Um we make sure that everyone, veterans, first responders, uh, everyone kind of gets taken care of like right away. Um uh and then and then uh and then uh so we're located on 13101 Telecom Drive, suite 250 on the second floor. Just come check us out. Um and you you'll you'll come on in, sit down, grab a snack, and we'll uh watch a little football, and we'll get you going.

Host 7:16:47

Uh, you know, and you guys just had your grand opening, right?

Chane Jackson 7:16:50

We did, we had it last Saturday. It was a big turnout. Um, and I'll send you those photos, but we had a big turnout, all the partners were there. It was it's it's amazing.

Host 7:16:58

That's awesome. We're we're super excited to to watch that grow. There's nothing more than I love to do than support uh those that that give back to the community. And you know, when you're not when, you know, again, when you're going to game day health, not only are you getting your TRT and you're getting your your medical needs met, but you're getting treated by a veteran-owned business with guys that have really, I mean, as you've heard this super long podcast of how Shauna has just, you know, put his life on the line uh for this country, and it's really cool. Um, and I think people like giving back to to the folks that have served. So that that's awesome that you're doing that.

Chane Jackson 7:17:29

I mean, I there was a guy that came in uh when we first opened and he was a former Ranger, Silver Star recipient, all that kind of stuff, and uh and uh and it made me really proud when uh he he come in uh after a couple weeks of already being on TRT and he's like, man, I feel good. And I of course he you know he's a disabled, 100% disabled. Um he's got his his his his his uh cane he's uh that he's using the walk, but man, he was that he was in the weight room hitting heavier weights and getting back to where he felt like he was feeling good and getting that muscle mass going again. And uh, you know, we hugged and I was like, man, brother, I'm here for you. So it was good, it was good to kind of see that. And of course, a former ranger, you know, I got I was proud.

Host 7:18:17

Yeah, and I think one of the cool things too that, you know, I think it was Andrew Huberman put it out a couple years ago. I mean, there's this idea that you you know have to, you know, stick a needle in your quads or stick a needle in in in your butt. But I mean, they're showing that the testosterone is just as available by using an insulin needle and shooting it in your belly fat. So, you know, uh, you know, when I first started using, I hate needles, man. I'm not, I'm not, which is funny because I'm covering tattoos, but you know, sticking sticking yourself with a big needle is is not a fun thing. And insulin needles, you don't feel anything. That's right. So, you know, there's really no excuse. Unless there's a obviously consult your doctor, seek medical profession. I'm not a doctor, but you know, if there's no, you know, medical contraindications for you to be on testosterone, especially as an older male, uh, you know, you're you're really just missing out. Um in my opinion. That's just my opinion. There's plenty of people that, you know, there are, you know, there's depending on the test to go back, you know, there's some people that don't want to do it for whatever medical reasons. Again, it's personal choice, but when you're talking about being excellent, especially um depending on what you got to do for a living, but for those that serve, especially first responders, people that really rely on their health uh for their line of work, man, it's it's just it's an awesome boost. And it's something when you're low, and you know, when you get on it, it doesn't take long for you to start feeling better. It's not like you gotta take it for two months. It's I wouldn't say it's necessarily instant, instant, but it's pretty quick.

Chane Jackson 7:19:37

Uh it's it's it's pretty quick. And that when that that release of the brain fog and having that energy again changes that that's a game changer, um, especially when you're going to work. Um, no matter who you are, like you're going to work, having to get stuff done, um, you know, having that clarity of mind, it makes a huge difference. And of course, you know, everything's happy when mama's happy and you're getting stuff done. You can multitask, and of course, you can do what you need to do outside of that, right?

Host 7:20:04

Because you don't do it, just find somebody that'll will. Right, right, right, right.

Chane Jackson 7:20:08

So it's like, hey, you know, uh, but but I always tell folks like, you know, come you see, get get get your lab test, see where you're at. If if it's low, you know, come come make let's make the difference, let's make the change.

Host 7:20:21

Well, not only that too, the peptide game is huge, right? There's oh yeah. You start talking about BPC 157, TB500 and what it does for wound recovery and and and gut health, and then helping specific injuries. I mean, that the peptides are you know, I'm looking forward to I think you and I were talking offline about having you know your doctor come on. Uh I we definitely want to bring him on and talk about testosterone, all things testosterone and peptides. We'll talk about it. Yeah, and I got a million questions, but uh, you know, I know you're not the doctor.

Chane Jackson 7:20:48

Um, but you know, and he and he is, he he runs the medical side of things. And uh, let me tell you, he knows this stuff. I mean, he he talked to everybody. He did for the grand opening, he actually held classes and seminars. For folks to just come on in and ask questions. And so he was like, hey, let's, and he had like two or three classes that he just was like, all right, on the Saturday, just like, come on in, let's sit on down, let's talk about what are your questions? What do you, what do you want to know? Let's talk about all the things. And then like, and you know, multiple groups. Um, and they challenged him with some questions, but he answered them and he and he and he knew what he was talking about. He knew his stuff because uh Dr. Jones has been all kinds of different fields of medicine, so he knows all this stuff.

Host 7:21:26

Yeah, it's even better, man. It's it's great. And you get and you leave with a better feeling of, you know, there's a lot of fly by night TRT clinics, man. I've seen quite a few of them, and I've had to swap clinics a couple times because you know, there's been a couple I I went to where you see them telehealth, and you're not even talking to a doctor. You're not even talking to somebody in the medical health. They've got a medical director somewhere that signs off on some, but the person you're not talking to doesn't even have a medical background, which I think is irresponsible. But, you know, again, man, it there's a lot of folks out there. So, you know, you do want to be careful where you go, you know, get a medical advice from, and especially when you're talking about men's health. So it sounds like you guys are a one-stop concierge servers, and that's that's really cool. I wasn't familiar with the brand, and we're we're excited to get plugged in. I know you and I have had a couple conversations offline. Well, kind of as we close out um this podcast, man, I know this was a long, but we covered a lot of ground. It it's man, you're a person I feel like that's lived like four or five lifetimes. Um and it's cool, and you're still going, right? Like you're not letting you know retirement define you. You know, you you've just continued to go onwards and upwards, and it's it's inspiring. Uh, you know, you and I have had a lot of conversations offline just about, you know, if you don't know how to do something, you find somebody that knows how to do something. That's what I love about you. You're never pretending like you know everything. If you don't know something, you know the guy who knows something, or you'll learn it. Uh, and I and it's it's it's super inspiring to see that. And you know, you have an energy about you that it's it's hard to not smile when you're around. We were laughing or taking pictures, and it's like you can't help but smile. It's serious face. You you have an infectious smile. Uh, I just have a couple questions, you know, in closing. Um I I'd really like to talk directly to the audience now. There are young people listening to this, high school kids, college kids who feel stuck. They don't see a path forward, they don't know what's possible. What do you say to them?

Chane Jackson 7:23:16

Um, you know, I I've been there. I know, I know kind of what they're thinking. Like they don't know what that future looks like. Um, and I and I say to those high school kids, like the biggest thing they can do is to continue to push and drive themselves. Um, you know, perhaps the answer may not be directly in front of them or where they're gonna be or where they're gonna head. Um but if they surround themselves with people of excellence, people who are pushing themselves to make themselves better, then they naturally will gravitate towards that. And I say that the worst thing you could do, especially, you know, those young kids in high school, is to uh decide to surround yourself with people who aren't where you want to be. Um and uh if you make yourself better, um you want to be surrounded by people who are better. And those people are better will push you. Like all the friends I've mentioned earlier in the podcast, they're better than me. You know, Andre Smith, Nathan Yokel, uh Donald Harrison, Lawrence Butler, all these guys are they they are what I aspire to be, Joe Jones. Um, and because of them, Chris Jefferson, I became better. Amy Britton. I mean, I I don't even, I I could, it's countless names, right? But I surrounded myself with these folks, and you surround yourself with these people, and they will pull you along and they will show you what right looks like, they'll show you what great looks like. You know, when I got to the academy, I was surrounded by greatness again. You know, like I said, Josh Wilson, Sarah Merkel, um, you know, Felix Zayas, uh, you know, uh Darcy Jones, all these folks. I mean, I'm just everywhere I turned the corner, these are folks that I looked to. I looked up to Ashley Delaval. Shoot, Ashley, shoot, man, she she got out of the army and she was competing on uh was it what's the name of that thing called? Um uh uh shoot. Uh Shark Tank? Shark Tank. She competed on Shark Tank and won.

Host 7:25:22

Oh wow.

Chane Jackson 7:25:23

Like, and then she started a Stella Val business with her sisters. Um, just amazing, like amazing individuals. Um, but you know, we went to school together, right? Surrounded by excellence, right? Ryan Kent.

Host 7:25:35

I tell my kids all the time, man, if you find yourself and you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

Chane Jackson 7:25:40

You're in the wrong room. That's right. And so I say with these young folks that are out there and they feel stuck, um, who are you hanging out with? Who who are you paying attention to? Because you can achieve greatness and it doesn't take much, but you gotta know that you can do it and you gotta push yourself to do it. That's awesome.

Host 7:25:59

You didn't know what an engineer was, you thought you had to be a pro-athlete to make it, then someone showed you a different path. How do we create more of those moments and opportunities?

Chane Jackson 7:26:09

Oh man, it's you know, really what we need to do as a community is is is get have that outreach, you know, be able to talk to those young folks out there, tell them that these things exist, tell them these programs exist, tell them that there's there's all these opportunities. And no, and there's a lot of programs out there trying to reach out to the youth today in these socioeconomic areas, in the wealthy areas. It doesn't matter. Like, but you know, exposing them like, yeah, you can be an athlete, which is an option, you know. But it, you know, but a lot of folks can't make it that far. Um, whether it's genetics, whether it's health, whatever it is, injury. Um, but there's still there's still other options to you. And you may actually gravitate towards those other things anyway. Like my daughter, um, you know, she she she's big on music. She can play all the instruments, she's good with engineering and math and and all the things. And you know what? And she's also an athlete. But you know what? She knows about all these things because she's exposed to it, right? And and that's the the biggest thing for all of us is like exposing and and talking to the youth about these different opportunities, and when you have a chance to talk to them about what you do or what you're doing, um, so they know about it. Because some of them may not even know that it exists.

Host 7:27:18

What would you say to the kid who's being told he's not good enough, the new first lieutenant, maybe the E4, he's not smart enough, doesn't belong.

Chane Jackson 7:27:28

Well, uh, first off, that's not true. And that's never true. Um, I think everyone has that potential in them. Um, and you you gotta find it within yourself. Uh now if you if you're lacking the skill set that's needed for the job, that's one thing. Then you can train to it and you can learn it. Um I I think anything, you can learn anything and you can pick up on anything. And I think it is all about your mindset. It's all about what you want to achieve. And if you fall short of what that bar is, then then it is what it is. But you at least maximize what you can do and what you can be, then you you will achieve it, right? Um, and and I'm telling you, you will not fall short if you know exactly what you need to do, what needs to be, you know, what excellence looks like, you got to go and pursue that. And if you give up on it, you're giving up on yourself, and you just can't do that.

Host 7:28:21

You've overcome a lot, um, but you're not angry. You know, you've had to deal with all kinds of stuff. Uh, we didn't even dive into the racism of this podcast. We we merely hinted at it because that's not something you define yourself of, and it's something I love about you. How is it that you keep from being bitter? Like you're just one of the most happy-go-lucky guys, and Sparta, in spite of being a person who could have said, Woe is me, many times, quit, walked away, ranger school, West Point, uh, the Ranger Regiment, on and on and on. What is it that drives you and and what is it that you can share?

Chane Jackson 7:28:56

You know, I don't, you know, I think, you know, it's it's adversity, right? I mean, it it is what it is, like, and you're gonna experience that in your life no matter who you are. Uh, black, white, purple, blue, ground, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. Like, if you you you go and you face obstacles in your life, and those obstacles cannot be the thing that defines you. It is what how you overcome those obstacles what needs to be what defines you. Um, you know, I don't think of anything as uh as a failure, as much as a point of learning. And I think that's kind of where you have to be, and like you have to have that success. I mean, I read several different books, you know, especially read Colin Powell's book, um, where he talks about how he defined himself and how he always uh looked at life with in an optimistic lens and how that really is really like would define him as a leader. Like, um, and and like reading that book like meant a lot to me because like, oh man, I didn't realize like that's that's kind of how he approached the world and how he approached life. But like, you know, you have to be optimistic about it, you have to be positive about it. And like, yes, you will have some shortfalls, you will have those things that aren't your happiest days, but you can't let those non-happy days be the thing that brings you back and pulls you into a darkness. Now, there was a point in time where I was in the darkness, you know, where I didn't really treat my traumatic, my stress and uh post-traumatic stress disorder and my PTSD. And I was in a world of darkness for a while, you know. Um, but I think, you know, you know, coming out of that and getting into that counseling and then getting back to the light that I had from the beginning is really what helped me kind of persevere and say, hey, look, I I define myself through the th through my successes and through the things that I've done well. And and I and I continue to do that and continue to push towards excellence and push towards those successes.

Host 7:30:42

Amazing. Uh these are just some quick hit questions. What are you most proud of? Oh, my girls, my daughters, my three little boo-boos.

Chane Jackson 7:30:52

Yeah. What do you still want to accomplish? You know, to be honest with you, uh, giving back to the community, giving back to society, uh, um, you know, giving back in a different way, you know, uh through through AI and technology to the DOD in the right way, also giving back in the in a healthy way too to the community, right? Um, but you know, my my biggest thing now is like, you know, I don't really have a set thing that I want to accomplish. Um, I think right now, uh establishing the these companies and stuff and these these these franchises and helping to hit the community is really something that is a blessing. And I just want to continue to reach out and be able to communicate and talk to different folks that are local or even you know national that I can reach to and talk to. Same thing with you know, doing what I'm doing with Turbine One is being able to help out with the DOD and and giving back in a different way where they can actually have stuff at the edge. Like so these are all things that um that I I aspire to be able to do now and still while I'm running around and you know working really hard. What uh what does happiness mean for you now? Oh, happiness is everything, you know, happiness is just being this is living. Uh, you know, happiness is seeing my girls grow and and seeing them perform and seeing them, you know, be excellent. Uh happiness is just, you know, uh being able to see other folks be happy and be successful. Um, you know, I really don't, you know, to me, um happiness is within. And so a lot of times people talk about that. They talk about this concept of happiness. And like, if you're not happy in here, then then you're not happy at all. And so for me, I'm happy when I wake up in the morning. It's a choice we get to make. It's a choice, yeah. It's a choice. And so like it's not it's not this singular thing. Um, it's not this uh characteristic that comes from something happening. It's it's it's really choosing to be that every day. And I'm choosing to be that because every day when I see my little boo-boos, I'm happy. That's awesome. Well, uh, what are you grateful for? Uh, you know, uh mostly uh I'm grateful for um everything that's happened to me in the past, um, all the experiences that that have led me to the point where I'm at now. Um I'm grateful for for my mom being so strong and raising me how she did. I'm grateful for my dad, you know, even even in his absence, um, still providing that foundation and eventually coming to bear the fact that he he was who he was and he did what he had to do. Um, yeah, and and and I learned from him too, right? I'm grateful for my sister and all the things that she did and showed me, uh, because for without her setting the example of excellence in the beginning, I don't think I would ever see what that was, right? Uh but I'm grateful for all my friends and and and and you know, especially my family, right? You know, so um every every single one of them have always been there for me.

Host 7:33:53

It was wild to hear you rattle off so many names. It's not very many people I have come in here that can just provide a laundry list of names of people that help them. It's very impressive. But it's also shows the depth, not only to who you are, but what those people meant to you. And you're, you know, one of those people that I've taken away from from my time with you to just really appreciate the people uh that help you, right? So so oftentimes, veterans especially, we put ourselves in this box and we really isolate ourselves. Or, you know, you do have the folks that did something and really try to hog all their credit uh and and not really realize that you know you might have accomplished some things, but you accomplished some things because of the people around you. Right. And many people forget that, and and it was it's awesome to hear you talk about your friends and what they mean to you. I I think it's really cool. Uh what gives you hope?

Chane Jackson 7:34:47

No, I I will tell you, um when I see the children, um, especially in the facility, that that gives me hope. That that gives me hope for our next generation. When I see the cadets and the the youth and the future leaders of tomorrow, that gives me hope. Like um, and and seeing the strength that they have and what our future looks like. Um, you know, and am I sitting here, you know, do I know what exactly they're all gonna do? No. Um but I do know that they're gonna be on, they're gonna do great things beyond whatever I could ever do. Um, and it's great to see that. And that gives me a lot of hope.

Host 7:35:23

Last question, man. What are your final thoughts, last words, or what do you really want to leave the audience with?

Chane Jackson 7:35:28

Um, you know, one of the things that I want to leave the audience with is, you know, just like we talked about before, you know, everything in life is a challenge. Um, and it's the people that surround you, that help you, that are there for you that that bring you through that challenge. Um, I think that, you know, all the things that I've been through, you know, I've always had that base of support. You know, Sandra, Sandra Jackson, she's been there to support me through a lot of those things. And my mom has been there, uh, my sister, and and and you know what, regardless of uh, you know, my friends, uh just just everybody has always had my back. And you know what, when I had an opportunity, I provided for them when I could. Did I give them everything they needed all the time? No. I mean, sometimes I fell short, sometimes I didn't know all the answers, right? Um, but when whenever I I felt a moment of weakness, um, especially like, you know, there's a point in time where I was really down and I was um, I mean, I was having those suicidal thoughts for my PTSD, and Colonel Ruth like snapped me out of it, you know, and I was talking to him on the phone, and he immediately caught it and brought me back into reality. Um, these are things that um, you know, I I can never forget. And so just remember, you always got someone there to help you and guide you and be there for you. Lean on that, lean on your your folks, lean on your support network, but also be there for them as well on the reverse side when they need the help. And I learned that early on. And um, I think that's really what's gonna make that makes a difference for you in your life.

Host 7:37:04

Bro, what an honor to share space with you. I mean, you are an American hero. You would never tell anybody that. I know it's not the way you speak. Uh, I gave you an opportunity to introduce yourself. And, you know, I did that on purpose because I I wanted to show people who you are. I mean, obviously, I I wrote an introduction, but uh, you're just a great human being. Uh, thank you for your friendship. Um, and I look forward to uh to to what's to come.

Chane Jackson 7:37:27

Ah, all right, let's go.

Host 7:37:30

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