Host 1:09

Man, that was uh that was a tough section, man. I I appreciate you uh going deep in the memory bank for that one. I know we've talked off camera and there's just tons and tons and tons of stories, but at some point, you know, I think you uh we did we did what we needed. Um do you want to talk? I mean, you're you you came home uh from Fallujah. I mean, I could ask you all the questions like, well, how did you feel and how did you process? But I mean, I already know the answers to some of that. At 21 years old, after two full-long combat tours. Pretty sure I know how you processed. Yeah. Um, you guys did a second warrior's night. So, Colonel Millet, Senator Colonel Millet, how'd you guys out again? Um, talk a little bit about that.

Eric Shelvy 1:57

So it was very well, I guess I wouldn't say it was similar in some sense to the first time. So we go back out to the beach, same beach, mandatory. Everyone's got to go, everyone's sleeping on the beach, and uh it was I I I don't remember as well as I remember the first one, but I remember we we we brought the the black stallion back out, and you know, and it had the stirrups and backwards. I had the dog tags of all 19 Marines that were killed. They fired 19 missiles out into the Pacific Ocean off the beach in California. That's that's cool.

Host 2:29

It's kind of wild.

Eric Shelvy 2:29

Yeah, I was like I had some F-18s fly by, and um it was cool. Um, I was thinking about it earlier, you know, that conversation that, you know, when I told you when the Colonel, like, we had this conversation in this like fighting hole one night, and um I remember he was talking about how his grandfather was killed in World War II, and he was like an MIA for a while, and then they pronounced him a KIA, but like they never found him, or they did find him, but they the family never got uh like the story of what happened, like they just never knew. He just like here's your you know letter from the Department of War, and that was kind of the end of it. And uh I I I remember him talking, telling me that, and I it was important to him. So when we came back from Fallujah, he made it a point to which I something I wasn't looking forward to, but I think it was it was uh only because I was a part of it. Um, but I felt I felt like it was an incredibly noble thing to do. And he had this point that no Marine that was killed in his battalion was their families were not I say this without a double negative, but they were never not gonna know exactly what happened. So he took all the families of all 19 Marines that were killed, flew them all out to California. The Marine that was killed, the the lieutenant, the sergeant, the corporal, the lands corporal, whoever was there when it happened, had to sit in a room with the colonel, the chaplain, the families, powerpoints, maps, and explain to their family exactly what happened. So that was another one of those moments, much like Silva, where you you came back and you're like, you know, and Greg's mom was there. His whole family was there when we um came home. And uh it's another one of those things that's just in the back of your mind. You know, you know it's not real, but you know, it's like it does kind of it's in the back of your mind. It's like, is this mom gonna hold me like personally responsible for her for his death? You know you don't really think that, I guess, because I mean I don't like hold myself responsible. Um because it is just it is what it is, you know, it's war. You know, it's not a traffic accident where there's clearly one person did something they shouldn't have, you know. It's a it's combat. But it it is, you know, it's like man, I had to go face the mother of this guy, and that's that sucks, man. But man, I I remember when I first met her because I hadn't met her before, and uh man, she was just like full of hugs to everybody. She was awesome. She was so nice, and his whole family had a younger brother. Um they were nice, so we had to sit down um with his family, because I was there obviously, and you know, Miller, Lieutenant, you know, everyone that was there. We had this PowerPoint with the colonel, the chaplain, everyone in dress uniforms, like super um uh a super formal thing. And you had to sit there like on this street, on this day at this time in this house, like here's the grade coordinates. Who had to give the brief? It was a combination. I think I think the lieutenant did a lot of it, you know. Uh and you're not telling like gory shit, you know, because that's not necessary for anyone. Um but I f I feel like I feel like that was really uh a really honorable thing to do. You know, I mean there's a lot of ways the government wastes money, but I don't think that was one of them. Like if we're gonna blow half a million dollars on plane tickets, like that, hell yeah, that's that that's worth a half a million, whatever it was. But I you know, I felt like that it really made me not that I didn't already, but I really had a lot of respect for that. Because it obviously doesn't change anything, but how easy it would it have been for a a colonel like that, you know, in a prestigious position like that, you know, to be like, oh I'm I'm pinning on Fulbird or a star or whatever and taking my promotion and and you know, see you guys later. That wasn't his style. And um, I think that's why it was all I think that's why it was so I think he he understood the the significance of the event.

Host 7:39

I don't think we did. I don't think I did.

Eric Shelvy 7:43

Um you know, we're 21-year-old grunts, you know, he's uh you know, he's probably in his 30s at the time, or you know, 40s, who knows? But you know, he's a big shot colonel, tons of medals, educated, war college, you know, all this stuff. I think he he was obviously much more mature than we were, because he's a freaking colonel. Um, but I think he understood the totality of not just what we did, but just all of it. Like he knew that this battle was going to be in the history books, and we were just like, well, this is gonna suck. Yeah, you know what I mean? That was our view of it. Um, but I think he he understood, and I think he was um, I don't know. I just I thought that him doing that was really cool. What was the family's response? It's certainly not a conversation you want to have. I don't think anybody wants to have it. I I don't know. I didn't ask them directly. I mean, they were very upset, clearly, and rightfully so. Yeah, but I I would venture to say they were incredibly grateful that that happened and they that the Marine Corps paid for them to come out there and meet all of us and see the guys that were there and have the conversations. I know I've never heard of that before. Greg had a younger brother um that was friends with Miller and a lot of other guys. I think they all still talk to each other. And um again, some of the like I knew a Miller was much closer than I was. Um, but I thought that was cool, and uh it it's something I again I don't think you'd find anywhere else.

Host 9:58

Yeah, you said something interesting, dude. Um, you know, you guys lost 19 Marines on that deployment and 19 babies were born.

Eric Shelvy 10:08

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, 19 dead and 19 babies born in the battalion while we were gone during that deployment. Yeah, you can't make that stuff up. No, man, that's like almost speechless. I don't even know.

Host 10:24

That's really cool to hear that your battalion commander did that. I've I've never heard anything like that before. And to give those family closures, that's that's awesome, dude. That's honorable.

Eric Shelvy 10:34

Yeah, I agree.

Host 10:35

I think everyone thought that. What was life for you like next? I mean, I could ask all the usual questions like, oh, what was it like to be home after two combat trips at 22? And but I mean, what um I'm sure there was an adjustment period. I think anybody who's listened to your story knows there's gonna be some type of adjustment. When did you kind of realize and like you needed to go on to the next thing?

Eric Shelvy 10:57

Or well, I had I think we all knew we were going back. And because of my the timeline, because I've when I enlisted, I had enough time left in my contract of my four-year contract to do an entire another deployment, to do a workup and do an entirely nother deployment. Because I've got I deployed like three weeks after getting there. So there's enough time to do a third. And I had uh we got back to California and I had a roommate from a guy that from uh another unit, a sergeant. I don't know, he came from some other unit. He had come back from um embassy duty, you know, the Marines that guard American embassies around the world. I I heard of it, I guess I knew it existed. I didn't really know anything about it. But he had come back from this and he had spent all this time overseas and at embassies, and he was just like telling me all these crazy stories and partying and you know, traveling and all this stuff. And I was just like, man, that sounds freaking awesome. I was like, I want to do that. That sounds freaking cool. You know, it's either that or go on another deployment. And at that time, there were some opportunities to because you had this big recycle of Marines, right? Like a lot of guys getting out. You know, every time a big deployment like that happens, there's a big shuffle of command of people everywhere. And you some of the units like you know, scout snipers and recon, some of these uh more elite units were looking for guys and come, you know, try out for us kind of thing. And I was just like, man, like it sounds cool, you know, it would have been cool to have been a scout sniper, like the training would have been awesome. Like I always loved working with those guys, they were always super smart and um super down to earth. Um, but I was like, man, do I really like go do some two-week freaking in doc and just get my ass kicked all over again, just so I can go get my ass kicked all over again. You know, and uh, you know, so I was kind of kind of dancing with like, oh, you know, what am I gonna do next, right? Because I'm not gonna be able to hide anywhere. You know, there's uh go be a drill instructor, um, you know, go be an instructor at infantry school, you know, there's there's there are some things out there, but it's not big army or big navy where you have just millions of jobs that you can get into, and they're just not. It's like infantry, drill instructor, like you pick. And if you don't pick one, we're gonna make you a recruiter. Right? So if you don't, you know, and I saw it happen to a couple guys, and it's like if you don't make your own uh path in your career, you know, if you don't make the decisions on your own, they'll make them for you. And it's usually not it's usually gonna be some shit like make you a recruiter in like South Dakota or something, something like just setting you up for failure, right? So I had this, like I said, I had this roommate, he was doing this embassy uh thing, and I was like, man, that sounds that sounds freaking awesome. I don't want to do that. How do I do that? What do I gotta do to do that? And well, it turns out it's it's it's kind of a it's a pretty difficult program to get into, I come to find out, right? You had to like apply for it, you had to do uh interviews, yeah. There was you had to have uh because you had to get a top cigarette clearance from the State Department, you had to, so you had to be pretty squeaky clean, you know. Um, which I was so you know, I kind of met all those things. So I I went and did the interview, um passed it.

Host 14:42

Um you know, I met all the prerequisites that they they that they put out there and submitted my application.

Eric Shelvy 14:54

So I I mean I'm back for a few months maybe when this all happens. We're talking like mid 2005 at this point. And uh I'm not sure how I found out, but I found out I got I like I said I don't remember how it wasn't an email, obviously, but I found out that I got denied to do this embassy program. I was like really pissed. So in the in the infantry or in the combat arms MOSs, like uh infantry and uh artillery, uh things like that, you had to have two deployments under your belt before you were even eligible to go do one of those special things. You had to stay in the grunts for at least two deployments. So I I met all the prerequisites to do this thing. I applied for it, um, and I got denied with no explanation whatsoever. So I had a different captain at the time, and uh he was with us for like the last part of Fallujah, the patrolling kind of part, but wasn't there for the real heavy stuff. But he was a he was a nice guy. Um you know, I imagine that was a tough position for him to be in, you know, to come in on the back end and lead a group of Marines that have just been in the shit for like the last five months. Where did Chantosh go? Uh he went to Quantico.

Host 16:18

They pulled him out in the middle of Fallujah? Yeah. I'm sure he wasn't happy about that.

Eric Shelvy 16:25

No, I don't think so. I happened to be standing there when that kind of thing went down, and uh um, yeah, I'm sure there was much bigger things at play with him, and I don't I don't really know, but I know he went to he went to Quantico um and went on to teach officer stuff. I don't know what they were what they were doing. Um but we got this other captain, and uh, like I said, he was a nice guy, and so he's walking down the barracks after I find out I get denied for this embassy thing. And I'm like, hey sir, can I talk to you for a second? You know, because I was I was seasoned and salty enough that I would stop a captain at that point. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't give a shit. I was like, hey sir, can I talk to you? You know, and he's like, uh, yeah, what's up, Shelby? I was like, well, sir, uh, I put this this application in for this embassy program, and I got denied, and then and I got no explanation why. He's like, hmm. He's like, come to my office in like 10 minutes. You know, you go over to the battalion headquarter building, captain has his office, and excuse me. So I go down there for I go down there 10 minutes later, and he's like, hey, come in, Chubb, what's up? And I was like, Well, sir, I put this application in, I got denied, I met all the prerequisites, you know. I don't know. I just there's no explanation. Like, I did what the Marine Corps asked me to do, and then they're telling me F myself. So what's the deal? He's like, Yeah. He got like really mad about it. He's like, Oh, god damn it. And he's like, somebody in Quantico denying three, five Marines, are you crazy? He's like, First sergeant, get in here. His first sergeant comes in, he's like, Well yeah, what's up, sir? He's like, You know somebody over at Quantico at this embassy thing? And he goes, Yes, sir, I do. He goes, Call him and tell him Shovey's on his way and take him down to battalion headquarters and check them out right now. He goes, they can't tell you no if you're already on your way, can they? I was like, I guess not, sir. And I checked out of 3-5 that day.

Host 18:13

Jesus.

Eric Shelvy 18:14

That's not normal, isn't it? No, not normal. No, not at all. Again, another story I've I've never heard of. So I went the first turn took me down there, and there's some private down there, and he goes, Private, write this shit down right now. Put his name on there and check him out. You're done. Here you go. Go to Quanco. And I left. That I just brought my shit in my car and left that day. That's crazy, dude. It's like totally off the books. No like leave requests, like no nothing.

Host 18:36

Did you uh did you go straight there? Did you take a leave and route?

Eric Shelvy 18:39

Or there was no leave to be taken. I just left. You drove straight to I no, I went back home. I went to St. Louis because there was like a couple months or whatever before the school started. So I went home for a period of time, not long.

Host 18:55

Um is that when you got met in the airport? I'm sorry? Is that when you got met in the airport from all the reporters? Uh from the Time magazine cover?

Eric Shelvy 19:05

No, actually, it was before that. So before all that happened, that's right. I did go. I went home. Yeah, I guess there is like a whole chunk of time that I just kind of like skipped right over, right? Um so before uh I'll get before I get into like the embassy stuff, um, yeah, we come I come home from Fallujah, and uh yeah, so like the Time magazine thing had come out, right? So um for me it was six months ago. Um, it wasn't relevant. I never really saw it, I never like talked to anyone or like was talked to by anyone, or um the only people that could get to me was uh combat cameraman, the Marine Corps uh Marine Corps uh newspaper or whatever the hell they're called. You know, the internal journalist in the Marine Corps. So they came and talked to me at one point and did like an interview kind of thing, and but no one else could get to me, no one else knew where I was at or anything like that. So I come home and uh yeah, it's kind of a big deal. So I found out. What was that like? That was pretty overwhelming. I mean, I got home, there was like a news cruise in the airport, like it's crazy. Uh you know, my mom had done all this, her career was in marketing, and um so she had a lot of contacts in the area, knew a lot of reporters and all this kind of stuff, and you know, now um, you know, now it's super super mom time, right? Look at the one, you know, and you know, it was ironic, obviously. Of course, from where I was sitting. Yeah. Um, but you know, the the magazine was uh, I guess a big deal to some people. I mean it is it is you know, I don't brush it off. I I brush it off in some regard that like, oh, I'm I'm remember me, you see me, it's how not that, but it's like yeah, it's like I was a huge deal back then, bro. It was, but it it it's kind of uh you got to kind of secure your place in history. Like that will never go away. You know, I mean, when you really think about it, like, do you know your great grandfather? Do you know anything about him? Nope. Nope. Neither do I. So you may know your grandfather, maybe, if you're if your parents had kids had you when they were young, or you may not. You know, so you're talking in two generations, your name is forgotten forever. No one knows anything about you. You're an antique picture on a wall in a book somewhere. Maybe someone will make a tree at some point and pull up a census. You know, so when you talk about legacy and you know, history and and what's the point and all that kind of stuff, and that to me, it's that's not it, but it is kind of like yeah, okay, so maybe maybe my name won't die in two generations. Yeah. That's what I think's kind of cool about it. Not like, how can I use it to like benefit my career or whatever? It's it's to maybe my great-grandkids will still know who I am. They may not know me personally, you know, but they'll they'll know I did something more than the average. Or part of something more than the average.

Host 22:38

That's the cool thing about like podcasting. I know I told you this a long time ago, and I I still use it to tell people. You know, I still read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, right? It's a book that was written thousands, two thousand years ago, I think, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, a little before but it still is relevant, you know what I mean? And like the cool thing with the digital media, like this thing gets to live forever, right? Even this podcast. So yeah. It is it is interesting, and it's a cool way to look at it. Um, because I know you, man, you're not into all that BS. I know you got to like go throw the first pitch at a baseball game, and I'm sure it like I mean there was a lot of cool stuff that happened.

Eric Shelvy 23:15

Um, I probably wasn't prepared to deal with all that. Um, but I got to do some cool stuff, and Max came back to St. Louis with me, and I'm like hanging out in the locker room of the St. Louis Cardinals, shooting the shit with major league baseball players and and and Max. You know, there's Max again right over my shoulder, taking pictures. Um, you know, Max ended up like photographing my wedding years later, and we're still friends to this day.

Host 23:36

Can you get the manager to? Sign something for your sister, I think.

Eric Shelvy 23:39

Yeah. So I was, I was, they asked me to come down and throw a first pitch out of at a St. Louis Cardinals game. So I'm like, well, that sounds pretty cool, right? Like put my uniform on, go down there. You know, and they they took me down and they wouldn't let any of the girls in, but they let me and Max into the locker room and we're just kind of you know shooting the shit with all these players, and some of them were super cool, and you know, um, and so I was like, so it's like it starts raining, of course. Right? So it's like this rain delay. So it kind of worked out because we were hanging out in the locker room much longer, and it's like, look, you're probably not gonna get spin's probably gonna get rained out, it's probably not gonna happen. I'm like, uh, whatever, dude. I don't really care. Like, um, so I came back out, my sister goes, uh, hey, can you get uh Tony LaRusso, who was the manager at the time, and he goes, Can you get him to sign this ball? I'm like, I'll go ask him, I guess. And uh so I just walk in there, I knock on his door, and I was like, Hey, Mr. Lusso, or sir, whatever. And I was like, hey, sir, I got this baseball for my sister, will you sign it for me? And he goes, Yeah, absolutely. And he goes, if you sign this for me, and he had a copy of the Time magazine sit on his desk.

Host 25:23

That's crazy.

Eric Shelvy 25:24

I had no idea. And Max has this picture, I'm so sure you'll put it up here, but has this picture of him signing a baseball and me on his desk signing a magazine for him? I thought that was pretty cool.

Host 25:35

Yeah, how was that conversation with your mom? I mean, the lady who pretty much threw you out of your house uh because you joined the Marine Corps, and um now you come back after two deployments and you've made the cover of Time magazine. What was that like? Yeah, that's um it's it's right. I see it very clearly.

Eric Shelvy 26:02

Right? It's kind of like um, you know, I made a career out of doing everything you told me not to do. No, you know? So there's like part of you that wants to like throw it in her face. There's part of you that doesn't. You know, she's clearly very proud. I think she's very happy I'm not dead. Um I think she was genuinely very worried because of this what was happening. Um I don't I mean, I think there was probably some leftover stuff from when I was younger, but I think a lot of that was just kind of that was then, this is now. And I think we just a lot of it was just kind of dismissed.

Host 26:37

Well, and you alluded to it earlier. I mean, in her defense, right? She's not here to defend herself, but you know, her generation had gone off to Vietnam. That was a hellacious war. Right. And I'm sure that was, you know, very close and personal at some point. Maybe that was what she prevented. You know, she was trying to prevent, and then, you know, you decide you're gonna do it anyway, and maybe she throws you out of the house because she can't deal with the thought of that's quite possible.

Eric Shelvy 26:57

And you know, it could have uh very this could have all very easily gone the other way. You know, this could this could be no conversation at all. You know, there could be someone else sitting here talking about me the way I'm talking about them. You know, it could have very easily, she could have very easily been right just as well as she could have been wrong.

Host 27:15

Your mom wrote a book, it didn't go to publish. That's something you and I have talked about offline. Um did you ever share kind of your experiences with her or or no, not like this. Oh I I don't uh no she wrote a book on her perspective, I guess.

Eric Shelvy 27:34

She did, she wrote a book. I have it, I haven't published it yet. I probably will here soon. I need to to uh talk to my sister about it. But I have it, it's it's done, it's edited, it's it's written. We just need to push the button. Um but it it's I mean if you've ever read a book about yourself, it's really weird. It's it's very weird. Um but it it's it's kind of all the stories I've told for the last couple hours, um, it's her perspective of that. As a mom, I'm sure that's as a mom, as a a citizen, you know, as a voter, you know, her views are obviously much more uh educated than mine. You know, she's an adult, I'm not, right? So she sees things. I see all this now. Of course, when you're 20 years old, you don't know any of that stuff.

Host 28:26

I read it, it was super interesting. It's a it's a very unique perspective, and you can feel I mean, it's a mom's perspective, right? Like now as a parent, I have kids. I mean, you and I both have sons and daughters, and you know, although we're patriotic to this country, the last thing you want to do is sacrifice your kids.

Eric Shelvy 28:42

Um, and that's and she came home, you know, and she uh she was in California when I came home, and you know, like she met uh Silva's mom and Greg's mom, you know, and it's like you know, I imagine she was thinking very much the same thing. No, you know, like is this woman gonna hold me accountable? This it's not a common situation. No, you know, that's uh there's a lot going on there, you know, from all different sides. And so I mean I certainly look at it all very differently now than I did then.

Host 29:23

That's the great thing about reflection, and I think it's another, you know, side effect of this podcast, right? Like we get to talk about our experiences to you know, maybe younger kids or you know, soldiers in their 20s and 30s that have been through some things, they get to hear the other side. This this stuff doesn't exist when we were young, man.

Eric Shelvy 29:39

No, and that's why I'm here. You know, I told you this, you know, I'm not here to show boat, I I don't care enough. But you know, you told me that me telling them my story might help someone, and uh that's why I'm here.

Host 29:51

I truly believe that. And I I appreciate that, man. Uh, because you didn't have to do this, and you could have easily you had every reason not to, and you came because of our friendship, and that's a bit lost on me. Um, so you finally start heading towards uh MSG school. Uh what was that like when you got there? I think they knew you were coming.

Eric Shelvy 30:09

Yeah. So this is kind of when this is kind of when the big shift in my life kind of kind of happens, right? So you know, Fallujah is uh a big part of it, much more so than than OIF 1. Um, Fallujah is a big part of it, but um it's it's not everything, you know, as we're gonna get into, but it's kind of the foundation of everything. Kind of it kind of it comes to define me um and the path that I go down years and years later. Um, because it all kind of comes back to that. If you ask the question why, the chances are the answer is somewhere in there, you know. So yeah, I uh I apply to this embassy program, and you know, they tell me to F off, and Captain's not having any bit part of that, and um uh they cut me orders. They literally just wrote orders like write this. I stamp it with his date and leave. Shout out to that company commander, whoever that was, yeah, custom balls, man. Yeah, that's the way it was. That's the way it was in the grunts, you know. Uh we uh it was all we kept it in-house and we took care of each other. So yeah, that put a lot of things into motion. That one decision by that captain changed everything. So I make my way to Quantico, and uh this master sergeant is there. I show up, give him my orders, you know, do what you're supposed to do. And this master sergeant who was friends with my first sergeant, that's how this all kind of came to fruition. He looks at me and he goes, So you're the one, huh? And I was like, uh, yes, Master Sergeant, I I am the one. Right, I don't know what the hell that means. Uh I I put it all together kind of later, what that really meant. Uh because it's a theme that kind of dragged out. Um, but yeah, I was there and I was happy to be there, looking forward to it. Uh the school was pretty pretty serious, you know. You could easily get kicked out of there, and that's a very dangerous place to be because for a guy like me, uh getting kicked out of that program ends you back in the infantry. So you knew exactly where you were going if you uh screwed it up.

Host 32:29

So the stakes were high for me.

Eric Shelvy 32:31

And uh I understood that. So I, you know, and I I did. I wanted to be there. I thought it was super fascinating. Like it was a totally different world to me. It was a totally different side of the Marine Corps. It was Quantico was like Quantico was like where Fox Mulder, you know, did his investigations like that. I didn't really know where Quantico was, right? Uh my world was was very small, you know. Um, I'd been to all these countries, but I never even had a passport. We never needed one. We have tanks, we don't need passports, yeah, right? So um this was a whole new thing for me. And um I liked it, man. It was cool. We're talking about some cool stuff, learning some cool things. Everyone's going all over the world.

Host 33:14

Um how do you get uh how do you figure out where you're going? Do you get to pick, or they just they just tell you, hey, you're there.

Eric Shelvy 33:19

They don't tell you that's where you're going. Honestly, I think there's like a private back there with a dartboard, like in a world map, just tossing it at like that's where you're going. Um but no, you don't get to pick. It's anywhere in the anywhere there's a US embassy with Marines, there's that's on the table. So where was your uh where was your first assignment? So my first assignment is uh Moscow. So the embassy it was called MSG, Marine Security Guard. It's called something different now, but at the time it was called MSG Battalion. And it's one of the very few in the entire Navy Marine Corps that has a full-time psychologist attached to this unit. It's very rare. There's not many in the entire Navy Marine Corps, you know, and that's one of them. And they screen everybody, right? Because you're dealing with real counterintelligence, like real stuff, you know, and there's history of, you know, you remember the famous, ironically, the famous Time magazine with the Marine with the black guy from the 80s and in Moscow, you know. Um, so it's it's it's pretty serious business in there, you know, and you get you get like a pretty high-level clearance, and it's it's not military stuff, it's a lot of more civilian stuff, and you're exposed to uh embassies and the way they work and who's there and who's doing what. So it's just like my my world went from this big to like this big, like almost overnight. What did the psychologist uh tell MSG about you going to Moscow? Well, you know, when you're young and you're in that career like that, and you you have a background like that. So this is kind of when I started to realize that my background was not the same as everyone else's. For better or worse, right? I just and my time in the Marine Corps, I just ignorantly, I guess, but I just kind of assumed like America's at war, like all Marines are fighting, right? That's just everyone around me was fighting, everything I saw, people were fighting. So I just in my mind, I just kind of assumed that's what everyone was doing. I did no idea there were people at Quantico just working out all day long.

Host 35:31

I had no idea.

Eric Shelvy 35:33

Um, I never spent any time around uh female Marines. That was like a totally new thing for me. I'd never been around them, they weren't in infantry units. Um, so it was just, it was, it was different. Um, you know, we did our fitness test in the grunts. Maybe go to the range in the infantry, and it's like, you know, at Quantico, it's a serious thing, you know, pay attention. In the infantry, it's like half the guys are shooting at a freaking deer that's running up the hillside, you know, on a live fire range. Like, they're like, don't do that. They're like, okay. You know, like you'd get thrown in the brick for that in Quantico. But like, yeah, no, it's whatever. Like, you know, first platoon is just being assholes on the range today, kind of thing, you know. It's just a totally different environment. So this this infantry subculture, you know, and there's plenty of parts of the military that have subcultures within subcultures, you know, they all got them. And we have ours, just like anything else. So Quanaco is a whole new world for me. And uh, but I started to like put together the pieces of like, okay, maybe you know, you you wear uniforms a lot, dressed uniform, you know, like uh proper uniforms, not camis, which we never did in the infantry, unless it was like some general inspection. I mean, no one no one wore uniforms. Um, so yeah, when you start putting on like stacks of medals and stuff, and you're like, well, yeah, doesn't everyone have like three purple hearts, you know? And then you realize, like, no, they don't. So, you know, in that in my embassy class, there was probably 60, 70 of us, only like four of us were infantry.

Host 37:09

And they put us all together. So I was like, okay, that's kind of weird.

Eric Shelvy 37:16

Um, I don't know what that means. I don't know if that's good or bad. One of the guys was um, I don't remember his name, but he acted exactly like we would in the in the in the grunts. Like he'd go crazy, you know, do a lot, you know, just being a crazy guy. Um, which in the infantry was totally normal. You know, if like you know, a night in the barracks is like uh a New Year's Eve in Vegas, right? It's you don't know what's gonna happen. There's no chairs flying out the windows, you have no idea what's gonna happen. MPs are like, I ain't going up there. Those guys are crazy, man. I'm not dealing with that. Um, but you know, I knew that that wasn't to be tolerated there, and then that wasn't really my style to begin with, but yeah, so the psychologists, you know, they're they're there to screen you basically for all you know, where'd you come from? What's your history, all this stuff, you know? So it's like a counterintelligence kind of interview. Um so they assigned me Moscow, and I I talked to the master, and he came talk to me, and he's like, Look, the psychologist says you can't go to Moscow. That's you know, a critical threat, it's a critical post. Um he's like, Yeah, they told him uh, you know, this guy was in Fallujah like five months ago. Like, you can't you can't send this guy to Moscow. Uh I was like, Yeah, okay, whatever. Like, what can I have no leg to stand on, right? And he's like, Yeah, uh I told her, screw that, he's going to Moscow anyway.

Host 38:46

So he sent me to Moscow. What uh what was Moscow like to the you know, whatever T you can talk about? I know it's sensitive to a certain extent.

Eric Shelvy 38:55

Uh man, it was a whole different world, man. And it I mean it really was like um it was super cool though. I mean, it was a really unique uh experience to just be there for for one. The amount of history that was there, you know, all the the history, right, of all of it was all like right there at your fingertips. And then, you know, if you like reading books or history of Soviet Union and Russia, Moscow, and all this and the United States and all this, there's just there's so much going on. And um it was I met a lot of really cool people, you know. It wasn't just like groups of Marines. We had Marines, of course, um, but it was like me and all these other people in all these agencies that you like never heard of. You're like, who are you? What do you what are you what is that? What are you talking about? You know, and these people become your friends. So my world just started to get bigger and bigger. You know what I mean? So I was I just got I went from like I can be a team leader or a squad leader, you know. It's kind of like if I go to the Marine Corps, I can be a cop. I don't have to go to college. Now it's like, oh man, there's all of a sudden like all these doors just kind of started opening up, you know, and I started like meeting all these people in three-letter agencies and you know, law enforcement and intelligence, all kinds of cool stuff. And I was like, man, that that sounds pretty cool. I maybe I'll do that. I'd like to do that. Because you got to get out of the Marine Corps at some point, right?

Host 40:34

Because I became very, I was very well aware that um if I stayed in the Marine Corps, I was going right back where I started.

Eric Shelvy 40:46

There was no way that they were gonna let a guy like me, especially if I was getting promoted, you know, I would be a platoon sergeant back in the infantry or a gunnery sergeant back in the infantry. They're not gonna let me go hang on at Quantico. It's just not gonna happen. They're not gonna allow that. It's too valuable for them. I I was well aware of that. Because a lot of guys, so you either get out, you know, and you run the risk of uh just being a bum, or you stay in, or you find something else to do. So when I was in Moscow in the very beginnings of that embassy program, I kind of made a decision. I was like, I'm gonna do one of these three-letter things. I was like, this this sounds cool, but you had to have a degree.

Host 41:29

And uh I didn't have a degree, obviously. But I was like, okay, um, I'm gonna get a degree.

Eric Shelvy 41:38

So I did some research, you know, we had computers, we had access to things. Um, you know, it wasn't the infantry, right? It was like a building, like a it was an embassy, right? Uh we had electricity, it's exciting, running water. So I started doing some research, and I was like, you know, they have some of this tuition assistant stuff. I can I can use some of my GI Bill uh while I was active duty. And um so I just kind of figured out how to do it and just signed up for college online and just like whatever they um however many classes they would have let me take, I would take five, six, whatever. I had nothing but time. Um so I I kind of just made that decision right right then and there. And I got waivers for a lot of stuff, you know, from military training and stuff like that. They they usually will squash a lot of electives and things like that, you know. Um so I was kind of right then and there. I was like, I'm gonna finish my degree, I'm gonna do it in less than three years. You know, this embassy program is three years, three one-year assignments. I'm like, I'm gonna finish it all before three years. That was my goal.

Host 42:47

What um before we kind of work through all that, what are some of the misconceptions Americans might have about Russia? Like, what is some of the things like you spent time over there, you you lived over there uh for a year, like because of the world situation, politics, whatever, man. Like, you know, you hear all these things, like you don't know what's true, what's not. Like, what are some of the misconceptions you think?

Eric Shelvy 43:09

I mean, you could have misconceptions about anywhere, anything, any people's yeah, I and I think the answer is is probably the same for everywhere, you know. So, like, uh well, I was there, this was almost 20 years ago now. Yeah. And, you know, it's like you had our peers, like, who did we hang out with? We hang out with, you know, Russian girls or guys you meet at bars, you hang out, and then they're our age, right? So, what do you talk about? Like, at that time, it was like, you know, blackberries were coming out, and this was like magic, like palm pilot, oh my god, and it's like it's like magical stuff, you know. Um, but you know, throughout my time of doing that, I mean, I went to dozens and dozens of countries, and I still have up to this day, I think I'm up to like 80 countries now. And uh the answer is the same for for anybody. If if you ask any general person around the world, like what do you want? Uh, or what's the difference between me and you and our cultures? Like, yeah, maybe there's some religious differences or some cultural differences, but the answer is generally the same, right? Like, I want the government to leave me alone, I want to be happy, and I want my kids to be better off than me. Like, that's that's a pretty universal answer to anywhere. You could go to any country in the world and ask that, and you're probably gonna get the same answer. Great perspective. The media is not gonna tell you that. Politicians aren't gonna tell you that. But I think deep down, we all generally want the same thing. Maybe that looks different in in some different culture somewhere. But it's like, what is there, I mean, what does an average 18-year-old Russian want as a as a versus an average 18-year-old American? They want freaking Instagram and TikTok and shit. Like they all want the same thing, it's the same. You know, it's it's easy to put these lines up and to but essentially it's to me in all the travels I've done, it's all it's it sounds cliche, you know. But it really makes sense. I think it's people just want the same damn thing. No, I think sometimes we totally overcomplicate things. Of course, because there's money to be made.

Host 45:15

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 45:16

Right? If there wasn't money to be made, there they wouldn't do it.

Host 45:19

Well, it's kind of like Iran, dude.

Eric Shelvy 45:21

I mean, it's every it's you it's everything for thousands of years. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like you talk about Marcus Aurelius, and I would argue the people of Rome are bitching about the same thing we're bitching about right now. Yeah, all these senators out at their bathhouses, like, uh yeah, we're still talking about the same damn thing, like 2,000 years later, right? We're pretty much talking about the same things.

Host 45:43

That's funny. That's great. That was a great perspective. Uh, you you move around in MSG, right? You you you can't stay in that program a certain amount of time, like you can only stay a certain amount of time, you can only stay in the country a certain amount of time. Right.

Eric Shelvy 45:54

Um it's three one year assignments, uh Moscow. I spent time uh in the Netherlands, spent time there, and then I spent um my last assignment was in Malaysia. Yeah, which turned out to be a pretty pivotal, you know, pretty pivotal assignment. Um, I know you kind of alluded to it in the intro about where the where the hell is qualum port. Yeah, what was that like? Oh, I remember that conversation very well. So my assignment, I left the Netherlands and my assignment changed like three times. So I was like, first assignment was you're going to uh La Paz in uh Bolivia. I was like, okay, that sounds kind of cool. I've never been there. And then they're like, oh no, you're not going there. You're going to Budapest. And I was like, yes. Right? Stay in Eastern Europe. It's awesome. It's familiar grounds. You know, it's so easy to bounce around Europe and do all this stuff, you know. And then uh, so I was like really happy about that. And then um Dig Gunny calls me and he goes, uh, you're changed again. You're not going to Budapest. I was so pissed. I'm like, where am I going? He goes, You're going to Kuala Lumpur. And I I I very, very specifically remember looking at him like, the fuck is that at? You didn't have Google Maps, right? Like you didn't have all this technology. Hey, Siri, where's you didn't have that? You know, you literally had to go get an atlas and like look around, you're like, oh, there it is, right? And uh I was like, I have no idea where that's at. I don't know anything about that, and I know it is honestly on the other side of the planet from here. Um, so I wasn't super happy about it to begin with. Where the hell's where's Malaysia at again?

Host 47:36

Outside of India, Southeast Asia. Oh, okay. Thailand, Malaysia, yeah. Okay, Indonesia. Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 47:46

I haven't traveled that part of the country that much, dude. So I'm like you. Where's that out again? Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. Um, it turned out to be an awesome assignment. So I I show up there, there's uh only five Marines there, all of them are awesome. One dude's uh an infantry dude like me from another unit, like our resumes are almost identical. Uh, you know, we end up getting along really well. You know, we still talk to this day. Uh he's actually the godfather of my daughter. Nice. Yeah, we're still good friends. Well, he's the reason you met your wife. He's part of it, yeah. So, so again, you you talk, you kind of alluded to it in the in the intro. Give us the full version, bro. Well, you pr that pretty much sums it up. There's a lot of uh inebriation involved in this. Um, so yeah, I was out with uh my buddy George one night, and his story's pretty cool too. You know, he's uh it was an infantry meeting. I mean, his stories were his resume is almost almost identical to mine. And uh so we got along really well. You know, we we had a corporal in our thing, we just messed with him all day long because we were the two sergeants and we were just kind of terrorized this corporal like that dude worked every Friday night, every Saturday night. Um so we were out, we're just out at this bar one night, and you know it's Southeast Asia, right? So when you see two Eastern European women, like they stick out probably about as as much as as we do, right? So we'd go up to him, and I'd learned uh a lot of Russian, not like fluent or anything like that, but enough to like you know talk in a bar and get cabs and things like that. And um so I went up and I said something to this girl, and I said something to her in Russian, and she responded in Ukrainian, which I didn't understand, obviously. And my buddy speaks fluent Ukrainian, who's a maniac freaking Marine just like me, somehow speaks like natively Ukrainian. So he responds in Ukrainian to her question and uh or to her response. And I think she was like, What? Like, who are these two guys? And uh, you know, we kind of hung out, party, drank, whatever, and I was like, I really like that girl. I was like, I'm gonna ask her out just do it tomorrow or something like that. Like, I was pretty, pretty bloated that night. So we ended up meeting um uh the next day and having lunch and um kind of just hanging out over the next few months, going out to places. I mean, you know, there's so much cool stuff to see down in uh in that part of the world, you know, beaches and big city. So she was dancing. So come to find out, she's used to dance with the Russian Imperial Ballet, she's like a like a like a no-shit ballerina. That's what I that's my technical term.

Host 50:41

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 50:41

There's like ballerinas, and then there's no shit ballerinas. That's how I refer to Natalia's.

Host 50:47

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 50:48

Yeah. I always tell people like she's more of a professional of that than you and I are of anything we've ever done. Oh, I totally agree. Like my like I'm a professional at uh like filling sandbags. That's what I do. Like, what do you do? I dig holes. Uh yeah, and then I take the dirt and I put them in bags and I put them around my hole. So yeah, um, so we just kind of start dating, hanging out, you know, um, and uh over the next few months, and um I so I this was my last assignment, so I only had you know six, eight months, you know, less than a year obviously left of this assignment before I go back to Quantico, and then I gotta decide, you know, what I'm gonna do. And so I was I was true to myself in the sense that I I did finish my degree before the three years was up.

Host 51:44

I finished my bachelor's degree. Um which was i i interesting, right?

Eric Shelvy 51:51

So I had uh I had uh you know a colonel that you know the officers come from these headquarters elements around the world and interview you to make sure you're not compromised, essentially, right? And just see what's up. Um so this he was a colonel, and um this is not this is this is not the infantry, right? These are different conversations. And this colonel comes down, I can't remember his name, but he he looks me dead in the eyes with and he goes, you know, Sergeant Shelby? He goes, I think you just came on embassy duty to party and go to school. Yeah, uh yeah, but if he said it like he was really pissed about it, right? And I was like, I mean, how do you what do you say? I'm like, uh yes, sir. I don't know, sir. I came here to salute the mailbox, that's what I'm here for. You know, it's like, of course that's why I'm here. It's why we're all here. Why are you here? You know? Um, of course you don't say any of that, but you know, he was like really pissed about it. He like kind of held it against me. He's like, 'cause I was doing, I had all this off-duty education. Uh, you know, I was getting degrees and I had all this combat time, and it was making me eligible for like promotions and things like that, even though I wasn't trying. I was trying to get out and do something and you know in the civilian side. And I just I thought that was cool and make more money and do stuff like you know, travel for I liked the this international thing. I thought it was awesome, and I wanted to, you know, keep doing it. I was like, this is freaking if I can make like 12, 25 times more than I'm making right now, right? Like these guys make more overtime in two weeks than I make all year, you know. Um, so yeah, and then you know, a few months, you know, six few months later, wherever, that that same colonel comes back and uh I uh sits me down again and he looks at me and he goes, uh, you know, Sergeant Shelby, he goes, I don't know why I don't have an officer package for you on my desk. And I'm like, do you remember the last time you came here and chewed my ass like I was something private on the on the street? Like, do you not remember that, sir? Of course I didn't say any of that shit. I was like, Oh, yeah, sure, yeah, I'll get that put together right away. Top of my list. Yeah, no shit, right? So yeah, that's uh that's when I I kind of started putting it together, like, man, okay, some doors are gonna are are opening for me. You know what I mean? My my my my path was different. Um you know, in Malaysia, it's like all these things are going on, right? So I apply for the State Department, you know, and um while you're still in Malaysia? Yeah, it was kind of interesting, right? So a lot of these three-letter agencies, um, you know, I didn't really want to do intelligence. Um, I wanted to do law enforcement. But hey, man, if I I wanted to be a cop a few years ago and now I can go be a freaking three-letter cop, uh, that sounds pretty cool, right? If I can pull that one off. And um, unbeknownst to me at the time, you couldn't apply for any of these agencies, you know, ATF, DEA, FBI, FBI, or Secret Service. You couldn't even apply until you had your discharge papers in your hand. They wouldn't let you. You know, and these process, the processes for these agencies take, you know, could take a year. And they may tell you no. Or longer. Right, or longer, right? So you that's a big gamble. You know, it's like I got some rank here, I have some seniority here, I can go be an officer, I can do all these different things, or I take the big risk of of you know, getting out. Like, what am I gonna do? Just sit there and collect unemployment until, you know, that maybe I I get lucky and get hired by one of these agencies. Um but the one that would have let me apply was the State Department, diplomatic security.

Host 55:43

So they allowed me to apply while I was still active duty. So um I applied now still in Malaysia and uh they said, okay, uh we'll we'll have you for an interview.

Eric Shelvy 55:57

It's in in Washington, DC. I'm like, okay. Um so I went to at like I you can't make this stuff up. So like that week um there was some event that was h some big uh political upheaval. There's some significant world event that was going on in in uh Myanmar, Burma and they froze us all the leave. None of the Marines were allowed to take leave to because in case they were needed to go to Myanmar. I'm like, oh my god, you gotta be kidding me, right? I got this interview in Washington, you know, what am I gonna do? So I had to like, you know, I had to go like ask this colonel, like there's the same colonel that like yelled at me one day and then asked me to become an officer the next, and I have to go ask him for leave to go to Washington for a civilian job, you know, and um I don't he approved it. So yeah, but I just took leave and bought a plane ticket on my own money and flew around the world in four days. Literally around the world.

Host 57:05

At what point did you find out Natalia was pregnant? So yes, uh Natalia gets pregnant. Um, was it before or after that? It it must have been after.

Eric Shelvy 57:22

It was after. It was after. So I go back to Washington, do this interview, come back to Malaysia, and she just uh yeah, she sends me a text message um you know when you had to type the the numbers three times. Like individual letters, right? Like you know, flip phones, and it just said, I'm pregnant.

Host 57:43

That's all it said. And I was like, wow, that uh that changes things, I suppose. So this yeah, so it's um decision time. You know, what are we gonna what am I gonna do?

Eric Shelvy 58:01

Um I got this you know career that's about to take off. Um I suspect or hope it will at least, you know. I think it's it's likely that it will. Um you know, I I kind of like on this this point where I just I had like all the stars kind of lined up for me. You know, I had combat time, I had language, I had a degree, yeah, I had just you know, I had a diplomatic passport, like I was friends with all these guys and all these different agencies, like I could just kind of do what everything was on the table for me, which was super awesome. You know, I went from like, do I want to be a a cop in this county or this county to like what part of the world do you want to hang out? Like, you know, it the w my world just got incredibly big, incredibly fast, and all these and then it's I'm pregnant. Common spelling. Common spelling, exactly. Right? So her English wasn't very good, and um your Russian wasn't very good. My Rusn Russian wasn't good enough to do to it wasn't that good enough to do anything other than hang out in bars and kit taxis.

Host 59:11

But you definitely had the Riz, bro.

Eric Shelvy 59:13

Yeah. God the Riz. So yeah, I I I I just kind of thought about it. Um I guess there there really wasn't anyone to like call and ask you know for advice or what would you do? What do you think about this? It was just I just made a decision and I was like, um Yeah, I'm in. And I was like, I'm gonna just ask her to marry me. And let's just let's just move forward.

Host 59:40

I don't want to overcomplicate that decision because not only do I love your wife, your daughter, other than my own two daughters, is probably like I don't have a niece, uh, but Alina's about the closest thing I got to one. I love that kid. Um what what was that thought process like? I mean, I mean, I I know it's it's a lot, right? But it's it's such the noble thing in all all the senses. And of course, you know, your wife has traveled all around the world with you, and and obviously I I know your family. Um yeah. But that's a big decision. Yeah, it was. Um and you use the word like you know, noble. Um you know, after Fallujah, like I would I would say a lot of um my emotions are totally removed from any decision or most thought processes at all.

Eric Shelvy 1:00:37

You know, and people say, like, why does that make you feel I don't feel anything, I feel angry. I I have a couple emotions, like hungry, tired. But like, oh, or that's cute, or I feel noble, or um I I I think that's a lot of the Marine Corps that still stayed with me. You know what I mean? It's like she's pregnant, let's make a family. That's the mission. Let's go. You know what I mean? It's not it sounds ridiculous, but it's like so you though. That's that's like that's how your brain works. That's how my brain works. So I uh that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna have a family. Roger, that, you know. All right, let's do this. Yeah. So, but you know, like you're your I think your thoughts are are much deeper, you know. Uncertain things. On certain things, yeah. When you say, like, yeah, that was the noble thing to, you know, to do. I don't I don't think I was sitting there thinking to myself, like, man, what should I be noble or not?

Host 1:01:33

Yeah, but if there's a lot of selfish human beings, it'd be like, I mean, I'm in a foreign country, like I could just dip out. You know what I mean? There's you could vanish in a heartbeat. 100%. And so, I mean, I guess, yeah, maybe that's not your thought process work, but that's how it happens.

Eric Shelvy 1:01:46

I mean, that that happens, man. There's girls banging on embassy doors around the world, like, I'm looking for Mikey, like, Mikey ain't here. Um, but yeah, I just I kind of made the decision right there, and I asked her and and like I tried to say it in Russian, I like screwed it all up, or like I couldn't remember it all. And I was like, you know what? You didn't have like Google, that would have been really cool, man. I thought I would have been like, Do you want a piece of fish? You know, that would have been the translation for my Russian, right? God, how great would Google Translator have been back then, right? Uh that would have been a total game changer. We had a a a dictionary, almost mini dictionaries, Russian English dictionary. And um yeah, Russian's like it's not super easy to read. Unless you know it, like yeah, you just have to learn the Cyrillic. I mean you can read it, but you may not know what it means. But like Spanish, you can like read it and sound it out, but like Russian, like I couldn't. You just have to learn the letters, yeah. You know, and I learned how to read the letters in in the metro system because nothing's in uh in English letters. So you have um, you know, they say stuff or you know, in the metro, they say, you know, next stop this, whatever, doors closing. Um, but you don't know what they're saying, and you can't read the signs. You're screwed. So yeah, you're screwed, right? I mean, if you were in Spain and you didn't speak Spanish, Siberia, they would say the word and you'd be like, that looks like that's what that says, because that's what it sounds like. But now you have this disconnect. So you have your like paper metro map, and you're literally like you stop at a stop and you're trying to like match, it's like it's like pictogram. Like you're trying to like match up symbols, what look like symbols to you. You're so you're like, okay, three on the red, then we go two on the right. Like it's an adventure race, it's an adventure to go into the metro system. You don't know what part of the city we're gonna end up in when you come out, and then you can't call anyone because you can't even read where the hell you are.

Host 1:03:37

You're like, we're in St. Petersburg, dude.

Eric Shelvy 1:03:39

I thought we were going two stop, right? So you can't even tell anyone where you're at. Yeah, you know, there's no picture phones, there's no Google Translate. We take all of that for granted now talking to my kids. So you had to learn how to at minimum just read the metro the metro uh stations. It's because we're from the 19s, bro. The 19s, yeah. I'm from the 19s.

Host 1:04:01

Man, that's uh that's wild. So um, did she go back to to Ukraine or yeah?

Eric Shelvy 1:04:07

So we'll you know, once the decision was made that that's what we were gonna do, um, you know, it's like okay. Um, and she agreed, you know, and I said, um, I I communicated that you mean she said yes to your proposal?

Host 1:04:21

Yeah, she agreed to marry me. Roger that we shook. Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 1:04:26

She picky swore. Yeah, exactly. Um yeah, so it was like, okay, you know, we need to like do visa stuff. Because what I really wanted is like once the decision was made that that we're gonna have this baby, um, which was cool, like we're gonna get married. Um, but like I really wanted the baby to be born in the United States, you know. Um I I think it it really doesn't matter, you know, working in embassies, you know how it all really works with, you know, a concert born abroad and all this kind of stuff. But um having gone through all a very you know, a lot of background investigations and all that kind of stuff, like things can be very simplified if like the it just matches up. You know what I mean? Like um, so I I wanted uh I wanted her to be born in the US. So I was going back, my time was just about up anyway. I was going back to Quantico. Um, so the timing was all kind of matching up together, right? So then I had to fight this kind of battle, you know, with the embassy, and I'm like, look, um, you know, I told the gunnery sergeant there, and we're still I'm still friends with him, too. I just saw him like three or four weeks ago, you know. The world of Malaysia just like keeps coming slinking back together. Um I told him, I was like, hey, you know, uh I'm gonna marry this girl, you know, I have her passport, we need to get a visa so she can come to the US. I was like, how you know, how do we do that? What do we have to do to do that? You know, and he was cool, of course, but then it gets into the State Department, like, well, and dude, if you would have worked anywhere but the embassy, I don't even know if that would be possible. No, there's no way. Yeah, there's no way. There's no way I would have pulled that off. So I was like, and now we're on a timeline, right? Um, so it was like, you know, we had to navigate some stuff in the embassy, and you know, it was a little pushback, you know, in the beginning. Um, I was like, you know, this stuff happens all the time, it's not uncommon. It just doesn't happen with the Marines very often. So you're the one, right? So it's like this reoccurring theme of like, uh, no one else has done this before, but I'm about to do it. So here it comes.

Host 1:06:33

Send it.

Eric Shelvy 1:06:34

Right. Right. And my pockets are full of C4. And and that guy over there, he's got a nine-volt battery.

Host 1:06:43

Uh just worrying. We're about to put it all together. So, what was that conversation like? Did you because you had to get her passport? Well, you she'd have to go back to Ukraine. You'd have to work out of the Kiev embassy, right?

Eric Shelvy 1:06:53

Yeah, it years ago, before this, you know, everything was in the State Department, and then after 9-11, they created Homeland Security, and things got immigration and visas, you know, like the State Department issues visas, um, but DHS now issues immigration status. So now you have basically two government agencies doing what one used to do. So I could I could navigate the State Department very easily, you know, because I still I knew a lot of I was working there. Um I knew people that were helping me, you know, helping me do stuff, you know. And uh, but DHS I didn't know anyone, you know, and so it's like it starts at it at state and then it goes to Homeland Security and then it goes back to state. And they're like, well, we have to send it back to we have to send this case to Kiev because that's where she's from, and it has to be out of embassy Kiev. And I'm like, okay. So it started getting pretty complicated pretty quickly. Um, but uh we were gonna we were gonna make it happen one way or another, you know. Um I was like, um, yeah, I was like, screw it, dude. I'll just I'll just write a letter to my congressman. Just be like, hey, uh, I need some help. This is who I am. Uh, you know, it's one of the few times where I pulled the time magazine. It's one of the few times I've ever done it in my life, but that was one of them. I was like, I don't care if that's what it takes to to make my daughter be born, you know, in Virginia, then that's what we're gonna do. I was well, I was happy to play the card at that time, you know. At that there's certain things in life where you're just willing to throw everything on the table. Your family's gotta be willing to do that. And that's and that's one of them. I'm sure it was worth every moment. Yeah. So, you know, and I actually, you know, they actually responded and helped me out and helped expedite things. And um, I went back to Washington. Um, she went back to Kiev. Um, they finally issued us. So I had a friend of mine that was working for a state in Moscow who is now in Kiev, and he's like a good friend of mine. And calling my hey dude, you know, need a favor. You know, I was like, this deal's about to go down in Kiev. And um, you know, he's like, Yeah, don't worry, dude. No big deal. You know, so we um I, you know, I and not that anything was done. We did we crossed all the two. You do it all, there's just just ways to do things faster. Um we still had we still had to do everything and pay everything. Like there was no freebies, it just was faster. And um so I went back to Washington and then I flew to Kiev and uh we go in and do her interview, right? It's my buddy, right? So there's all these people, it's really serious, you know. Um these because this is uh you know life-changing things for people when they come in to to get an immigrant visa to the United States, like it's top, I mean, it's a very serious thing for a lot of people. And uh, and then there's me, right? And there's my bro like behind the glass, and he's like, dude, look at all this facial recognition shit. And he like turns the screen around, we're like, Yeah, it looks just like her, like all these people like, who the f who are these people? And he's like, Yeah, man, yeah, we got the visa, no problem, it's all good, we got everything taken care of. He's like, Yeah, I'll just, you know, you know, you know, for instance, like they would mail you your passport. It's like, oh, just give it to Mike, dude. I'm gonna meet up with him later tonight, you know, that kind of thing. And we were on our way, you know, and then we fly, fly into Washington and or New York, I guess. And I remember it very, very clearly, you know, I was, you know, just a jaded freaking jar head, and I had a diplomatic passport, you know, and I so I hand this customs officer this passport, black, it's a black black US passport and a uh Ukrainian passport with a a visa in it, you know? She's like, and this this customs officer looks at me and goes, So are you guys related? And I was like, Fucking kidding me? Not related, there's two different passports, man. She's like, it's like really mad at me because I smarted off. Just stamp my things, send me on my way. So I'm like, I was like, yeah, I probably shouldn't have said that, but I was just like, that was a stupid question, so I couldn't help myself. And you know, so yeah, we ended up in in in uh in Quantico, and I was able to uh you know secure a position working at the headquarters for the embassy battalion in Quantico, and there was a master gunnery sergeant that was an infantry guy, and I was his he just kind of put his arm around me, you know, not literally, but he always like, you know, this he knows where I came from, and this is like a Quantico headquarters type place, you know, it's like um nobody can yell at this dude except for me. If you got a problem with him, you come talk to him and he'll yell at me. But no one else was like allowed to say shit to me. That's pretty cool, and that's just kind of how it was. So I was like, yeah, you know, Natalia came. I was like, you realize you just went from Malaysia to Ukraine to America and never said a single word to a single government official. Unheard of, bro. Yeah, not a single word. No, but she doesn't know no different. No, I was just like, this is what we're gonna do, and this is and we're gonna get it done, you know, and how we get there is irrelevant.

Host 1:12:16

Um, so you you know, you make the decision to to leave the Marines, um, you get on with DSS. Uh, how how was that transition?

Eric Shelvy 1:12:25

Uh for me it was pretty easy. Um, you know, it was a lot of the same people. Um it was a familiar, I mean, it's a de it's definitely a very different job. I uh you know, I I I got hired by DSS, and you know, there was kind of a whole side of DSS that they did that I kind of I guess I wasn't aware of. You know, there was a lot of domestic stuff that was going on that I just didn't know about. And uh I knew about the overseas stuff, you know, because I was around it all the time. And uh, but the domestic stuff, I just like, right, you guys do all this stuff too. Uh I just didn't know. Yeah, you know, so there were uh, you know, and the academy is like you know, seven months or something like that. So um, but I'm super happy, you know, it's it's a good job. Like I got where I wanted, you know, it's a uh pretty significant like pay increase, you know. It's like, you know, and it's the government. I get to like buy my military time back, and you know, there's a lot of benefits to it, and I get to keep traveling, and you know, we'll get some you know, uh overseas assignments, and that's kind of how it was. When I was doing the embassy stuff, all the guys that I knew that were State Department guys, they just were overseas, overseas, overseas, overseas, you know. But then by the time I got hired, you know, four or five years later, uh, it's different. Now it's like, uh, welcome to the State Department. Do you want to go to Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakistan? And you're like, can I go to uh can I go to Ireland? Yeah, can I go to Ireland? You got anywhere in Luxembourg availability? Like, do you have any? And uh I was like, why would I want in God's name to go to fucking Iraq? I just came from there, you know. Um, but that's kind of what you know, they had a hundred agents there and another hundred in Afghanistan. You know, there were huge embassies, and that's where the work was at at the time. You know, it was all this dignitary protection, these high threat assignments, and there was this whole other side, not just domestically, but internationally, that had just changed. Like the the days of oh, you get out of the academy and two weeks later you're in you know Armenia, and then you go straight from Armenia to Ireland, and then Ireland you go to Cambodia or where you know that that wasn't happening. It was Middle East, North Africa, you know, Yemen, Libya.

Host 1:14:46

Um might as well be back in the Marines, bro.

Eric Shelvy 1:14:50

Oh, and that's exactly my my my exactly my thought. I was like, well, if I'm going back to the freaking Middle East, I'm I'll just go back in the Marine Corps because at least I can take a tank with me. You know, like you may have a really cool suburban, but we have tanks and they're much cooler. So where did you go straight out of the academy? Uh it's the Washington field office, so they kept me uh they kept me in Washington. And uh, you know, at the field office, you're doing some type, some criminal investigations, you're doing uh domestic protection, you're doing it all over the states, uh, you're you're doing secretary of state protection details abroad, you know, when the secretary of state travels around the world. Um so did you travel a bunch? Oh, yeah, quite a bit. Yeah, a lot of domestically, internet all over the place. Um, you know, you're doing stuff at the UN, you're you know, it's it's it's a really interesting organization because you just kind of got your hands in so many different things. Like I always tell people that you could have you could have two agents and you could ask them the same question and you're gonna get two totally different answers. Those two guys can to have two totally different careers in different parts, just not like they don't even work for the same place. If you grab um, you know, two uh DEA agents, one from LA and one from New York, you're you know, after 15 years, you're gonna hear generally the same stories, right? Investigations, wiretaps, drugs, whatever. It's generally gonna be along the same lines of career. But states not like that. You know, one guy could be in Washington, the other one can be in Siberia, like it could, you can, it can be like a completely different organization. There's there's no two people's stories that will will be the same, not even close.

Host 1:16:37

Um you worked an interesting case. Um the the Thomas Tate case. You want to talk a little bit about because I I think it's really cool. I mean, you know, it kind of highlights what DSS does on the federal investigative side. That I mean, even I mean, I obviously I know about it uh because of my own job, but a lot of people may not know um that type of stuff.

Eric Shelvy 1:17:00

Right. So, you know, I think um, I mean, I I don't know what the general public does or doesn't know um what they perceive. I, you know, our most visible thing is like doing the dignitary, you know, protection stuff, um, suits and ties and all that kind of stuff. You know, anyone who's been overseas or done anything at embassies or government, like they know who we are because we run all security stuff at embassies. And if you're if you're doing anything overseas, you're gonna deal with with DS DSS in some form or fashion, even the military, because things fall under ambassadors and generals and like how that hierarchy works, you know, uh internationally. It's interesting, you know. Like, at what point does an ambassador outrank a general? And you know, it's interesting. Yeah, because there's a lot of legalities and like how that really works, and special maritime jurisdictions and theaters of of war, and it's just it's it's really interesting. You get this really unique perspective into like how shit really works out there, you know, all the stories. Um it you just it's fascinating. It really is. Um but yeah, so I'm in the Washington field office and um I was in, you know, working my assigned area for investigative purposes was uh Western Virginia and in West West Western Virginia and West Virginia. And uh uh boss comes to me one day, he goes, Hey, I was at this sheriff meeting uh somewhere out in Virginia. There was a a detective there that was talking about this case with this crazy guy. And they they think, you know, they think he killed his wife years ago, but could never prove it. Um go go down there and and and talk to this detective and and find out what's going on, see if we can help. I was like, okay, you know, well, and the the kind of our segue into it is that the wife was from the Philippines. So she was a foreigner. Um so we go down and talk to this detective, and we're like, okay, what's up with this guy, this guy, Thomas Tate? And uh um, she's like, Well, we got this guy, you know, he lives in this trailer over here, he hates the police. Uh, we just did a search warrant on his trailer for kitty porn, you know, something like that. And so they had all this, they had tons of charges against him, but they really wanted to charge him with this homicide of his wife. She was missing, she's missing, so they don't know she's dead at this point. She's been missing for like 10 years. So a decade has gone by. This woman vanished. So we're like, oh, okay, that's kind of weird. So, like, what's her name? We look it up. So the only thing that we could find, and you know, we could access uh all immigration stuff, you know, DHS or state or visas. We could see all that. We had access to all that stuff. So we started digging into it and we're like, wow, there's like no record of this woman. Like, we have uh a visa stamp, like her passport got stamped. Like we have that when she entered the US, and this would have been I don't even remember what year. This is like so this is probably right around 2000, something like that. So 10 years, you know, ago, and like that's it. Like no driver's license, no social security number, no nothing. This woman did not exist on paper anywhere.

Host 1:20:45

But she does, and she's here somewhere, right? She came here and she never left.

Eric Shelvy 1:20:53

So like, wow, this is kind of uh really interesting, you know. But we we we normally deal in fraud and and visa fraud in particular, visa and passport fraud, that's what we do. But this is like this is really interesting. And my boss at the time, he gave me gave me and my partner some some leeway to like assist this this uh this local, you know, uh police department down in southern Virginia. This was in Waynesboro, Virginia. And uh so we kind of ran with her, like this is this is really kind of cool. Um, it's just it's interesting, right? It's not like an everyday you know, who done it kind of thing. Like, this is way more complex. There's an international angle to it, like there's this woman just vanished. Um and and this guy's crazy, clearly, right? So um, so we link up with uh Virginia Trooper. Um, he's a super, super cool guy. And he's like, Yeah, we did this guy hate this guy like hates the police, like hates the police. He's had like you know, uh pictures of local cutouts of police officers and newspaper clippings and like some real kind of psychopath kind of stuff, like real psychopath stuff. And we're like, okay, you know, like how can we help? Like, what can we do? You know, like um, you know, how can we play this? And so we're like, how about we just go knock on this dude's door and say, uh, hey, your wife's visa's expired, where's she at? We need to talk to her. You know, we're not the police, we're not local sheriff or any of that. Like, we're just two guys who work for the State Department who are looking to for a visa thing, right? Like, we don't know any better. So, like, yeah, that sounds that sounds, that sounds good. It's a segue into, you know, let's start talking to this guy and see what's up. Because he has to answer the question, right?

Host 1:22:45

Like, hey, this is your wife and her visa's expired. Um, where is she? You have to answer that question, right?

Eric Shelvy 1:22:55

Like it's clearly gonna be a lie, but you know, let's let's let the guy, let's let him lie and see where where it where it takes where the investigation you know takes us. Um and at the time, like I'm not like some homicide investigator, man. Like, there's people way more way more qualified to do this kind of stuff than I am. Um, but we have a segue in, so we're gonna help them and kind of let them tell us which way they want us to to take the conversation and and um so that's exactly what we did. We just literally went and knocked on the guy's door, like, hey, it's me and my partner, we work for the State Department, and uh uh we're looking for your wife. And he got defensive immediately. I was like, whoa, why? Uh well, you know, her visa expired. You know, here's the paper because we were able to pull it up, you know. And then uh, you know, I don't even remember exactly what he said. Oh, she's not here, she ran off some guy or something like that. I was like, guy, can we come in? We just wanted to ask you, we just need to get some stuff, it's visa stuff, you know, not local police stuff. You know, and you could clearly see this guy was intelligent, crazy, you know, like uh you know, like real like real psychopath kind of stuff. You know, you could he you could hear it and uh I liked it because it would kind of became this like intellectual battle. You know, and it's like he I think he knew that why we were really there. I think he knew we were in cahoots, but he he couldn't prove it and we denied it, of course. Um, but there was a part of him that was like, wow, the State Department's here, you know, because he was in the Philippines at some point, and you know, he had this kind of fantasy in his mind that you know we were gonna recruit him and he was gonna come work for us, you know. So we kind of played into that that fantasy of his at the same time. We just keep him on the hook, and you know, the local detectives, you know, guiding our investigation, or it's her investigation, but we're assisting, so she's telling us which way she wants us to take it. And and we're just we're just trying to help out, you know, like we don't get bonuses that, you know, but it was very interesting. Yeah, right. So we talked to this guy, and then clearly this guy is clearly this woman is missing. Clearly this dude's a s uh a psycho, right?

Host 1:25:16

Like clinical. Um and uh so we'll just kind of see where we go.

Eric Shelvy 1:25:25

You know, so uh it got to a point in the investigation where they just they had enough of him and they just arrested him for all the all this slew of other kind of charges, local stuff that we weren't really involved with. And during the the the I think where we were really able to help um was I was I was thinking about it and I was talking to my partner and I was like, you know, the the the family of this woman have been calling you know these 800 lines, FBI, tip lines, all this stuff, you know, and this for a decade with like no answers, no explanation whatsoever. And I was like, I was like, I'm just gonna send an email, you know, because you could literally, you know, in our database, just in the email system, you could be like, you know, RSO regional security office, Manila, and just like, oh, these dudes are here. I just sent one of them an email and I was like, hey dude, um, I'm in the Washington Field office, I'm working on this thing. Like, can you go? And I gave them an address. Um, I was like, can you go out to mom and dad's village in the Philippines and just take DNA swabs of mom and dad and FedEx, put it in FedEx to me or put it in dip pouch and send it to me. And uh, yeah, like a week, less than a week, I had a box on my desk of the DNA swabs of mom and dad. So I take it down to the detective and I go, here's, you know, let's put it in CODIS and see what pops up. And uh she called me like the next later that day and was like, You're not gonna believe this. We found her. She's been uh a Jane Doe in West Virginia for 10 years.

Host 1:27:02

Oh wow.

Eric Shelvy 1:27:03

She was uh a found Jane Doe body um that was murdered and dumped on the side of a road in a national park in West Virginia, just on the other side of the state line. So now we have an international, not an but an interstate thing. I was like, wow, no shit, right? Um so now we have her uh identified, and so they arrest him for all this other shit, right? And uh he he hates them, like hates so he's like, I'm only gonna talk to those two State Department guys. So we were kind of out of it at this point. You know, it's like here's some DNA, cool, hopefully, you know, help if this solves your case, and you know, you know, that's it. Um so but she called me back and was like, hey, we got this guy, you know, we arrested him from all this other shit, and uh but he won't he will only talk to you guys. He's like, Can you guys come down here and talk to him? I'm like, oh yeah, this sounds cool. Let's go talk to this psycho, right? Like, you know, and that Sal was like, this is super cool. Like, I'm not qualified for this at all, but I really enjoy this intellectual head games, you know. It's a different world of operation, it's not like uh, you know, just throwing grenades and smashing stuff. Like, this is a different kind of battle. And uh, I liked it. It was it was cool, man. Uh, because I I kind of had the education. I don't I don't know if I had this, like I read people well, it's just always something I've always had. Like my dad's very he's like that as well. He's very sharp and reads you know social cues very well. And some people are just oblivious and some people are not. Um so we ended up just talking to this guy for days and days and days, and this big run around, these head games kind of thing. And at one point I just kind of slid the paper across the desk and I was like, Do you know what that is? And he's like, looks at it, and it's his wife, it's the document of his wife's body being identified that the state police from you know, because they have this body in West Virginia, so these these West Virginia troopers, they want a piece of this guy, right? So we're trying to like just trying to stay out of it. Like, we'll help. It's obviously not our case, but this is really cool, you know, for me. And uh, but yeah, they ended up charging him, he ended up coming off of it. He told you, right? Yeah. Oh, that's uh and he looks at me and uh I'll never forget it, and he goes, Um, no, we just after like 20 hours of talking to this guy, and he finally just looks at looks at me and my partner, and he goes, So, if she was murdered in a federal park, is it a federal crime?

Host 1:29:46

You know, and I'm like, This dude did it.

Eric Shelvy 1:29:50

Now he he knows the West Virginia troopers want a piece of him and he knows Virginia does, so now he wants in his in his illusion delusion, you know, he wants that work. Yeah, dude, come work for us. We really need you, you psycho. Like we don't need we don't need you, man. You're going You're going to the clink. And um, yeah, he came off of it and uh yeah, they prosecute him and threw the book out and all this kind of stuff. But he wrote me some letters from jail, sent to the field office. It was just it it wasn't a a super like super sexy case or anything like that. It was just like it was something that we were able to really contribute to like help solving this this Jane Doe from a decade ago. It was just it was a really interesting, it was kind of outside of our purview of what we would normally be doing. Um, but we could help, and it was it was cool, you know. And my boss let me do it, and which was cool. Yeah. Um plus was a break from traveling and doing something different. Yeah, and I learned a lot, you know, talking to these troopers and these detectives that do, you know, like I was a Marine, dude. I'm not a homicide detective. Like I'm the opposite of a homicide detective. You're the homicide maker. Yeah. Like the whole house just got blown up. Like, what do you think happened? Like, uh, I think the Marines were here. Yeah, I saw a dude running the habit with a nine-volt battery. Yeah.

Host 1:31:10

Um, you ended up transferring with DSS to did you go to St. Louis?

Eric Shelvy 1:31:15

I did. Yeah. So it was, it was at that time, just the way the the the world was, you know, it was difficult to get overseas to any of these assignments. And I did not want to go back to Iraq. You know, it was a one-year unaccompanied assignment. Um, you got like tons of benefits out of it, you know, and you got like preference on your next pick, and you made a ton of money, and you know, it's all and but I just like I don't that's not what I'm here for. I I didn't come here to go to freaking Iraq or Afghanistan. Like there, there's you know, 300 and plus countries in the world. Like, why do I have to go to that one? Like now all of a sudden I have to to prove myself to the State Department that I'm worthy of a promotion if I go to Iraq for a year? Like, get out of here, man. Like, that's not what I'm here for. Um, so it was really uh it was really disappointing, you know, and uh it really left a bad taste in my mouth, man. It's just like I had I had these years of all this time overseas as an embassy marine, and all these guys I knew, and all these stories and all these experiences, and these guys were going all over the world, and I was like, I just want to do that, that sounds awesome. And I'm like, I go there to do that, and they're like, So do you want to go to Yemen or Afghanistan? I'm like, neither. No, right? Yeah, so I was like, you know, I was like, well, screw it, I'll just do these in domestic assignments, right? And I'm like, you know, we had this little baby, you know, she's two or whatever, and I'm like, what's there's you know, there's some openings in St. Louis where I'm from. Nobody wants to go there, you know, so it's like always open. Weird, weird, right? Um, you know, there's only a couple guys there, so I was like, screw it, I'll I'll go. I'll go back, I'll go, you know, and um I did. I think it'll be good for and we and we end up having another kid in Virginia, uh, my son, uh, a few years later. And uh, so I was like, they can go back, they can at least know their you know, their cousins and their grandparents and and all that. And you know, it's much cheaper cost of living, like much cheaper, you know. We were in in, you know, I was a brand new agent. We were in a like, you know, really high rent district. DC's, you know, very expensive. Um dude, you know, it's like if you own one blade of grass, you're like super wealthy, right?

Host 1:33:50

It's funny, dude. Yeah. So uh you end up going back to to DSS and and or I'm sorry, you end up going to back to St. Louis, um, and then you end up working there for a while, and then you end up transferring uh to ATF. Uh a lot of people don't realize like once you kind of get in the federal system as a federal agent, you can it's a little bit more easier to traverse. You would think, yeah. Well, not in your case, yeah, like everything else.

Eric Shelvy 1:34:16

Yeah, you would you would think that once you're in, you're in, then uh it's certainly not that easy. What attracted you to ATF? Uh so I was on doing a protection detail up in New York, uh, like kind of a few years before that. And every year we run all these security details when the big UN events are going on and things like that. And they have to pull agents from other agencies to assist us because we just don't have enough people. And ATF is one of those organizations and the Marshalls and um, you know, Secret Service, you know, has guys from DHS come help, and you know, everyone kind of because it's just it's a lot going on. You need a lot of a lot of agents. So we always pulled guys from ATF and and the US Marshall Service. And um, I just I was on a detail with this this march, this ATF agent, and we got along real well, and you know, we were drivers in this motorcade, and we just like hung out and went to bars in our off time and told stories. You know, you sit around all day telling stories and all this stuff, and you know, we just got along real well. And he's like, he's like, You're not like a normal State Department, man. You you like say crazy shit all the time. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I guess that's true, right? And he's like, You should you should come work for us. And I was like, Do I get to like get a rifle and like break shit? He's like, Yeah, dude, we do that all the time. Like, that sounds cool. I'm in right, and so it's just kind of this, you know, at when we were doing the podcast prep and we were talking about this stuff, like as I was telling all these stories, I just I started noticing this like reoccurring theme. Like, someone told me a cool story, and I was like, I'm gonna do that. And then it's just like all in. That's what we're doing today. Like, you're pregnant, family. Let's go right now. You know, DSS, oh sorry, your visas are, you know, your leave is frozen, unfreeze it. I'm in, you know, embassy duty, I'm in. Moscow. Where are we going? Flujo, I'm in. Yeah, you know, and it just I started to know is notice this. Whatever you told me I couldn't do, I was gonna do it. And that's just it kind of just started happening again and again and again. Every time I was told, no, you can't do that, I was in my mind was like, watch this shit, because I'm about to do it. Yeah. And it's I never really thought about it like that. Because all those part, all those chapters of my life are you know segmented. Um, until you do something like this, right? No one does this. No one, no one sits you down and at any point in your life, like, hey, you can talk about your life for the next eight hours. No, that no one does that, right?

Host 1:37:01

Yeah, that's crazy what you learn. And it's even crazy like what you learn about yourself.

Eric Shelvy 1:37:05

Yeah. It just makes you think about things, you know, and now you have all this life experience and all this, you know, and you have the the the words to articulate it. Oh, you know, because a 21-year-old me would have all a lot of the same thoughts and ideas, but I would, you know, at that time I I lack the ability to communicate that effectively. I didn't have like the vocabulary to do it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just like, uh yeah, I'm here to break shit. Where do I do that? Over there? Okay, I'll start over there and then we'll go over there.

Host 1:37:44

That's very Eric of you. Um yeah, man, you gotta, it's a crazy story, right? Like, without diving into the DSS drama, um you know, you you make the decision to go to ETF, and of course, it's never easy. Um talk about kind of running into you know the Kansas City, what is the Kansas City Sack?

Eric Shelvy 1:38:07

Yeah, so there's a so I'm back in St. Louis and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna uh uh I just I so the let's see where the State Department office is on the same floor in the same building as the ATF office. I saw these guys, I didn't know any of them, but I saw them walking around, you know, they're always carrying bags of guns and stuff. Like I never knew what they were doing. Um so I just walked down the hall one day and like like literally like knocked on the door, like just like that. And this dude opens the door and he's like, Can I help you? And I was like, Yeah, my name's Eric Shelby. I work at DS over DSS down the hall. I used to be in the Marine Corps. Uh, how do I become an ATF agent? He's like, come on in. And uh the guy who answered that door, I was just at his house up in Fredericksburg three or four weeks ago. We're still we still talk, we're still friends. And you know, I was able to um do a lot of finagling, right? To to make that happen. It was very you'd think it would be very easy to switch to move around like that. And is it it would be very easy to move around if you were in the Department of Justice, to move within the Department of Justice or within Department of Homeland Security, but to move from one department to another, um, you you have a better resume, of course, but you still have to do everything. Like I wasn't exempt from anything, like every part of the resume, interview process, polygraphs, like all I got exempted from none of it. You know, I still had to do part of their academy, not all of it, but I had to do half of it. Um yeah, there was, I mean, I got paid more than my classmates because I had all this federal time. Yeah. Um, but I was still a freaking recruit again. You know, it's like, how many times in your life can you be a recruit?

Host 1:39:57

Yeah, and I think like you're going through the process to get on with ATF, DSS pretty much finds out, decides to screw you, and send you to some like overseas assignment. Yeah. And you ended up what, calling ATF? That's a kind of a crazy story.

Eric Shelvy 1:40:13

So yeah, I um so ATF gave me an uh an interview. Like, hey, we'll interview you like formally, you know. There's no like bro handshakes going on, right? I gotta do everything that everyone else is doing. Um and there's plenty of other dudes that are like totally qualified, right? Like, I'm competing, like legitimately competing. Like just because I, you know, have a federal badge doesn't mean anything. Lots of guys have badges, and you know, lots of guys do drug cases and and gun cases. Like, I don't know shit about gun cases, man. Like, you know, uh I I remember very distinctly when I was at the ATF Academy and I was like, guns, man. I was in the Marine Corps, I know about guns. Well, I didn't know shit about guns. It's what I quickly learned, you know. Um, they were so much more complex and the legalities of all these things, and and and even in the ex the explosives part of it, you know, in that academy, and it's like, oh man, that's I thought I knew stuff. I you know, they're like I remember very clearly like, you know, this and this, and it's like this is incredibly dangerous, and you should never do this. And I just remember thinking to myself, I was like, man, I used to do that shit all the time. Yeah. I'm lucky to be alive, but like, yeah, like this blasting cap is so dangerous. Like, man, I had like 12 of those in my pocket, like all the time. Like, but yeah, so I uh the I they sent me up for an interview, and uh well, I had no choice, right? Like the interview was I had to take leave from one agency to interview for another. Well, they're they're right next door to each other um in the hallway, so it's like I have to take leave, and you know, my other State Department boss walks by and is like, what are you doing here?

Host 1:41:57

I'm like interviewing. No, I was gonna lie about it. Like, I'm interviewing for ATF. Okay. Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 1:42:06

Like the next day I had a 90-day volunt TDY assignment to Yemen. So I was like, it's on now. You know, I was like, you can kiss my ass, and I'm not going to Yemen. Um, you know, and I tried the right way to like get out of it, you know. Um, you know, formally requests, you know, all the stuff. Like, can you just I'll do it in like two months from now. I just can't do it right this second. Like it's not a huge deal. We got thousands of guys that'll take these assignments all day long. Because it would have screwed you for the hiring process for ATF. I would have been out immediately. Yeah, because I wouldn't have been able to fulfill any of the rest of the hiring process. So I had a big throwdown with them and a lot of back and forth, and um, you know, it kind of got to a point where like I eventually had to like call ATF and I was like, look, um, you know, you need to like hire me or tell me no, like right now. Because if you if uh if I tell you know state to piss off one more time, like they're gonna really stick it to me. So like I'm willing to push it so far, but I'm not gonna like destroy my whole career on the hopes that maybe you hire me someday, you know. So uh they did. So like, okay, fair enough. Uh I feel like that was a reasonable request, and uh, I guess they did too. Um, because I I really did have to make a choice, you know. Um, and they eventually cut me orders. State did, you know, a three-year assignment to uh Kazakhstan, um, which actually was a freaking would have been a great assignment.

Host 1:43:36

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 1:43:37

You know, it would have been, it would have been I would have got to go to Russian language school for you know a year and it would have been a great assignment. But I was like, I'm committed to this, you know, this is better for the family. Um so yeah, they hired me, and um, that was that.

Host 1:43:53

Can you explain kind of people what ATF does, man? It's kind of one of those things where people have this idea, probably because of Colin Noir and all these dudes that have convinced everybody that in the 2A community that ATF's coming to take your guns, which is hilarious. Um, because ATF normally works, some of the most violent criminal shooters and drug traffickers. Can you kind of summarize what ATF really does?

Eric Shelvy 1:44:19

I mean, I don't know if I can speak on like the whole agency of you know what the mission statement is. Nah, but I mean just from like your I mean from my perspective, like what we're doing, yeah, we're we don't uh we just dealt with gangs and guns and drugs and violent um you know, there's there's there's dudes that do commit violent crimes, um, and there's kind of like a threshold, you know, it's like if it's a one-time felon and he has a bunch of drugs, like yeah, that's probably not gonna reach, you know, you know, reach our threshold. But if you're like an eight-time felon and you just like, you know, we're cracking rounds off as you robbed this gas station or whatever it may be, um, now you know, now we're involved, right? You know, we're we're the guys that are gonna come in and really stick a heavy case on you because you're a habitual violent maniac who's terrorizing the community. So that that's that's 95% of what we're doing is just violent. Um, you know, there's another half of ATF that I wasn't a part of, but they do the gun shops and um stuff and permits and that kind of stuff. We uh regulatory side of the rest of the stuff. Yeah, totally regulatory stuff. Like field agents, we don't deal with any of that stuff at all. We deal with just guns and drugs and and violent people.

Host 1:45:42

That's that's what we did. What um what was some of the most interesting things that you found out about the agency uh as far as like when you got out of the academy, you get in the field and you're you're starting to work? Um because I felt like that that agency doesn't do a very good job of telling folks what really goes on.

Eric Shelvy 1:46:03

Um I think the the level of of violent stuff that goes on out there is pretty incredible. Um when they hired me, they're like, you know, I was in St. Louis, like we can't keep you in St. Louis, but we'll put you in East St. Louis. I'm like, perfect. You know, I didn't have to move or anything, it's just around the other side of the river. Um, but it's a pretty notoriously, you know, violent place. Um but yeah, you you you just you deal with there's so much crazy stuff going on that it's it's almost hard to to define. I I I liked it, I liked the job. Um I liked the legalities of firearms and bombs and all this stuff. Like I thought it was stuff I'd been around my whole career, but I never like I remember being in the ATF Academy and just like I mean, you're sitting here talking about like gun laws for like three weeks straight, right? And it's like I didn't know any of that. Like fascinating. I'm not it wasn't a gun guy growing up, you know. I wasn't hunting, I wasn't collecting, I didn't know, you know, uh my dad had guns for, you know, he was a work guns, and that was that was kind of it. But I I thought that was how complex the legalities of firearm investigations really are and how they move around the country and trafficking. I just I I thought it was really fascinating. Like it really piqued my interest, and I was like, wow, this is something I could really sink my teeth into, just how uh complex it is and and the the capability of these agents that are out here like doing these super complex investigations like with like two guys or by themselves half the time, you know, and I was always impressed by that. I mean, and you know, it's like I had a lot of like really, you know, in academies and when you have a lot of downtime, you're in surveillance cars or whatever, you know, there's a lot of guys that I used to work with that were detectives, you know, that had done um, you know, drug investigations for 15 years. And I didn't have that experience, you know. These guys were really good at uh doing drug, drugs and investigations, things like that. But I I had a totally different background. I had all this international time, I had this combat time, you know, and they would always tell me, like, man, you're like, you know, I tell funny stories and stuff. They'd be like, man, do your uh your stories are crazy, bro. Like, that's crazy. And I'm like, I was like, man, your stories are crazy, dude. I wouldn't want to be a freaking running around the hood with a sidearm. Like, did you bring like a rocket launcher with you? Like, that's easier. Um it was just law enforcement and the military was a especially my military times, it was so violent to try and switch from kill everyone to arrest everyone. Those are very different things. And um that took me uh some time to transition to that, you know, because I just it didn't make sense to me. It was like, why would you just walk up on this car? Like it could, you know, in my mind, it's like it could just blow up. Like obviously that doesn't happen on traffic stops in America, but in the Middle East it does, right? So it's just your training, right? You're like, I'm not gonna do that, or I'm not gonna stand there, and I'm not gonna do this because this is what my training tells me. But you know, you yeah, you always say, I've had all this training from all these different agencies, and you always when the stress gets high, um, you know, you you default to your lowest level of training. You know, for me it was interesting because I had all this different training from different agencies and they all do it a different way. You know, like handcuffing, right? So, you know, ATF teaches right hand handcuffing, TSS teaches left-hand handcuffing. So I used to wear handcuffs on both sides because I wasn't sure which one I would grab for. It's funny.

Host 1:50:10

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 1:50:11

Because, you know, when the stress is up, like for that split second, am I gonna reach with my left hand to grab my handcuffs, or am I gonna reach, you know, which part of my training is going to uh work that day?

Host 1:50:25

Yeah, one of the things that was uh was interesting kind of about your career path, like in the ATF Academy, you get um I think you alluded to it, you get some arson investigation experience, you get that there's a whole explosive block, uh, because a lot of people don't realize um that ATF, you know, on top of working violent crime, firearms trafficking. Um we also, you know, are the law enforcement per investigation for arson and explosives, unless the explosives is part of a terrorism investigation. Right. Um, but you became ATF has another track, the certified explosion explosives, certified as explodive specialist, which is a whole like career path in the agency. Can you explain a little bit about what that is?

Eric Shelvy 1:51:10

Yeah, so there's also um, you know, SRT, which is kind of ATF's like SWAT equivalent. Um and you know, uh I thought about that, like, wow, that sounds cool. This guy seems really cool, everyone seems pretty humble. Um, you know, there's not a lot of egos flying around like there are in some places, and I like that. And I'm like, you know, like um I mean like running into a house and throwing people around, like that's I don't need a lot of training for that. Like I'm pr I'm pretty good at that. Um but in the back of my mind, it's like, do I really wanna do that? You know, do I really want to just continue this path of violence?

Host 1:51:51

Like how good at violence can you be before you're so good at violence that violence doesn't become violent anymore? You know? Like uh I don't have the answer, but I I I was just tired of it.

Eric Shelvy 1:52:09

Of you know, um I wanted something different. You know, it's like I knew that's I knew that's who I was, I knew that's what I was good at. Um, you know, it's like, well, it's a bad guy in that house. Like, okay, I'll I'll go get him, I'll be, I'll be back in a few minutes. Like, that's fine. You know. Um, so I just I don't know. They they asked me about it, I thought about it, you know. I it would have been cool. I like the guys that did it, you know. Um I f I feel like they were like good at it, you know, in the times I got to me around them. I was like, oh wow, these guys are like, well, you know what the hell they're doing, you know. Um I probably would have learned a lot from them to doing that because it's it's a little different mission and the fundamentals are kind of the same, but um I probably could have got really good at it, but I just didn't want to do it anymore. Like just putting rifles in people's faces, I just was tired of that. Um there's definitely it needs to be done. There's we need dudes that are willing to do it, but I just didn't want to do it anymore. So this this explosive program um within ATF opened up and uh some guy retired and they needed someone, and I was like, I know about explosives. I used to cook my coffee with C4. Like, I know about explosives. Well, I didn't know anything about explosives, clearly. Um, but this door opened, I'm like, that sounds pretty cool, man. Like a lot of really cool training. Um, travel around the country, meet guys from bomb squads all over the all over the world, literally. Um, you know, and get to just get some cool chemistry chemistry class, like, you know, there's chemistry at school, then there's chemistry of bomb making, right? And those are one's far more interesting than the other. And uh I I started doing it, and I felt like the camaraderie was awesome. All the instructors were awesome. It was a really tight-knit community. Um, the investigations were much different. You know, it wasn't drug dealers and gangbangers, it was bomb makers and crazy people. And, you know, it is there were much more um like intellectual type convers um conversations with because you're talking about you know, cookbooks and like real crazy people, right? Um so I liked it. I thought it was really interesting. And I did that for a while, and then uh that training's like what, a year long? Yeah, no, it's two years, I think.

Host 1:54:38

That's a long training program.

Eric Shelvy 1:54:39

Yeah, and send you back to school, you know, you go and do a master's program and explosive engineering, and um yeah, the training was two years, but I I learned a lot.

Host 1:54:52

You did a a pretty interesting um Jefferson County school bomb case. What happened with that one?

Eric Shelvy 1:54:58

Um I mean that wasn't that wasn't anything super crazy. It was just uh a dude with a whole bunch of bomb stuff, and um, you know, obviously you remember the Austin bombings years ago. So, you know, we're in Austin. Um that was uh a big case, obviously, at the time. But this dude just happened to be like sitting in a school parking lot with like a rifle laying across the seat, you know, and the police show up, they're like, dude, you can't have a rifle laying across the street in a freaking school parking lot. And so they search his car and they find like pipe bomb stuff and you know, notebooks full of like chemistry equations and how to make, you know, dangerous explosive stuff, and you know, and he had like bits and pieces of bomb-making, you know, what's called bomb-making materials. The there was bits and pieces of it there, but the totality wasn't quite there. So it's like this, well, we definitely need to deal with this guy in a school with a rifle and a bunch of bomb stuff, and they'll we just had this Austin bombing, you know. So this is like taken very seriously. Um yeah, we ended up doing search warrants and doing all this stuff, and you know, it was another one of those. It kind of reminded me of Tate, right? He was a he was not a dummy, but he wasn't, but he was, but it wasn't your average dummy, you know. Um, the the things that were written down were were far more uh complex than your petty crimes, you know. Um, but it it ended up working out. We ended up arresting him for a whole bunch of stuff, and you know, the judge kind of threw the book at him because he didn't want any part of that, yeah. Especially at that time.

Host 1:56:44

Um what was kind of like one of your favorite parts about working for ATF?

Eric Shelvy 1:56:51

I would say I don't know the people, you know, I really felt um from the very beginning, I felt like uh I belonged, you know. Uh the people always treated me right. No, I feel like there was a lot of I think I feel like the agency focused a lot on you know, this kind of um unity of brotherhood and one team, one fight, and that all that kind of that same stuff you know from the military. Um it's obviously not the same, but it's it's I feel like they did a lot more than than most agencies probably would. But much like the Marine Corps, you know, ATF's very small, underfunded. So is the Marine Corps, you know, we're we're doing with you know what one guy what you know um a bigger agency would do with 15. You know, so it was kind of doing more with less, and I kind of like that. That's kind of where I came from. And so I was on board with that. But I enjoyed uh the people. I I'd learned I learned a ton, man. I learned probably more in my time with ATF than I did like in the total of like all my time elsewhere combined. Yeah, that's awesome. And I I really felt like they made me a professional. And I was I was grateful for for that. I mean, like you asked, I can't remember half the stuff now, but I mean at one point you if you asked me a gun question, like I had an answer for you. You know, I feel like I was properly, I don't know, would you agree? I mean, I feel like I knew what I was talking about. I really did. Um, and if I didn't know, I was I knew exactly who to call to find out.

Host 1:58:25

Yeah, well, that's that's a you uh you had an opportunity um to retire. You had Marine Corps time, you had a ton of federal service. Um, and you know, you I know you contemplated, you had started, you know, you're getting long in the tooth uh federally, and I know you'd taken some sailing classes, you're kind of like one of those people that likes to constantly just keep learning and teaching yourself new things. And um, I know you started developing like a real passion for sailing, uh, and the opportunity presented itself to for you to retire. Um, what was that conversation like with Natalia, your wife, when you're like, hey man, I I think we're I think I'm yeah, I mean, like I said, the opportunity, you know, there was a you know, I was in St.

Eric Shelvy 1:59:14

Louis and you know, there was a lot of after George Floyd, it was the city just erupted, right? Like most cities did, but it was it was crazy. Uh it was it reminded me of Fallujah. You know, I those George Floyd riots, I think they changed modern law enforcement. I think a lot of people without a doubt. I mean, I I remember being in St. Louis that night and listening to the radio traffic of the police officers, like it sounded like Gotham City. I mean, guys were screaming bloody murder on the radio, officer down, two officers down, three officers down, we're pinned down, we're trapped, four officers down. I'm like, this is like Fallujah shit, man. This is like we need we need fucking tanks to go rescue our troops, you know, and that's what was going on. And you know, after that, I was that just kind of like clicked in my head, man. And I was just like, this is fucking crazy, dude. Like, I'm not doing this, you know, and that's just when the moment kind of like, you know, kind of emotionally, kind of let's call it chemically, you know, when the brain just decides um that you're done, you're done.

Host 2:00:28

You know, and you have a choice, you know, um you you walk away or you don't, and you suffer the consequences. And I wasn't a fool to think that I was uh uh immune to the stats that were there, right?

Eric Shelvy 2:00:50

Um you know, I could you can say, you know, guys, these all these guys are killing themselves all the time. Um guys are calling me. I'm and I I'm finding out about it every let's say every couple months for 10 years. So uh, hey, do you hear about what's his name? He killed himself. Uh I didn't hear that. Two months later, hey, did you hear about what's his name? Uh, you know, maybe six months goes by. Hey, do you know this dude's in federal prison now? Did you hear about that? This is like you just have to turn it off at some point because it's just nonstop. Right? So, I mean, am I so arrogant to think that I'm immune from that?

Host 2:01:33

Um I don't think so. I felt like I wasn't uh susceptible to it uh up to that moment, let's say, but what I was I so arrogant to think that that could never be me.

Eric Shelvy 2:01:50

I don't think those guys ever thought it would be them either. So, I mean, as an investigator, right? As a trained investigator, as we always say, like I I could that be me? Uh I mean, in my mind, like fuck no, it can't kill me. But statistically, oh yeah, that could absolutely be me. I mean, it's like mathematically proven that that could be me. So I have to decide. You know, do I keep pushing my luck and become a statistic?

Host 2:02:24

Or do you swallow your pride and walk away?

Eric Shelvy 2:02:29

And that's a very difficult decision to to make to walk away from something you've done your entire life because you think you're immune. Maybe you are, maybe you're not, but it's a zero-sum game. You know, the only way to prove that you're right is to die. Right? The only way to prove the other side wrong is to be, you know, however which way you want to look at it. Yeah. Um you know, it's like the way to prove your point is to be dead. And no one wins in that in that situation, right? So it kind of makes you think, you know, um you're kind of in this unique kind of position to do some like real self-analyzing. Um, and now it's like, oh man, maybe there's some like there's some like physical things that are like, you know, and and I'll be honest with you, dude. I was I was out uh my last six months, I was out with uh the marshals, you know, just doing fugitive stuff, which was awesome. Guys were awesome. I love the marshals, dude. Like the best job ever. I can go back and do it again, right? Great humans, though. Yeah, great group of people, great mission. Um it's just it's doing military type stuff, you know. It's for me, it's not hard. Um, but I was just like I was standing there one day and I was uh standing out in a backyard and this dumpy house, whatever, I was waiting for some idiot to come run out the back door. And I was just standing there and it's just like like my hand was like shaking.

Host 2:04:07

I don't I haven't told you this story. And I was just like, I'm just like looking at my hand and I'm like, why the fuck is my hand shaking?

Eric Shelvy 2:04:14

I'm holding my rifle and it's like doing this shit. And I'm like, my conscious mind is like, what the fuck is going on? And I'm like, and then my leg was like doing the same thing. I'm like, what? I'm like looking at, I'm like, what the fuck is why are you shaking? Standing there with my rifle waiting for some nut job to go run out the back door, and I was just like, man, something's uh something's not right. Like, I don't know what it is, and I'm not uh, you know, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a doctor, like, but I I know enough to know that like something's not right. Like, there's one thing to like think things, but when it's like a physical thing, um you know, that's different, right?

Host 2:04:55

That you can prove that like it's in your it's right there, dude.

Eric Shelvy 2:04:59

So it I wasn't like totally immobilized, but like there's definitely something something happened in my mind um that wasn't right like it's kind of like um like I was aware of it. It's kind of like uh I wouldn't say it's like an out-of-body like spiritual, all this crap, but like I was aware enough to like know like something was not right. I didn't know what or how, and I sure shut shit wasn't gonna tell me one about it, right? Because you're that's just you don't do that. But um something wasn't this something wasn't right. And I think a couple guys that I knew pretty well um recognized that, like something, you know, you're one of them. There was there, but you weren't the only one. There was a couple other guys that were like, dude, what the fuck's wrong with you, man? And I was like, I don't know, man. I honestly don't know, but something's not right. And um, you know, to their credit, like they gave me the option, like, look, you dude, you got 20 years, add it all up.

Host 2:06:08

It's like you can walk. I was like, I can. And they're like, yeah, you can walk. And uh I was like, okay. I thought about it for about three months. Um I was like, you know, if I leave, well, what am I gonna do?

Eric Shelvy 2:07:01

You know if I don't have this, you know, uh, then what do you do? And and so go a couple steps back, and uh, you know, you mentioned the sailing thing, and yeah, I was like, I started getting into like sailing, sailing boats. I was like, and I started uh in bomb school, of course, right? So I was in bomb school uh in Alabama, and I was there for like a month, and I had like some time on the weekends, I had nothing to do, and I just like there was a sailing school down on the Tennessee River, and I just called them and I was like, hey, I want to learn how to sail. Can you teach me? And they're like, Yeah, come on down. And uh went out sailing on like some people's boats and like showed me a bunch of stuff, and like they were all super nice, you know. Everyone had the passion for this this sport, and they like just random strangers, like, yeah, come with us. And we went out and like swimming and had some beers and all this kind of stuff, and it was awesome. And I was like, hooked, I was like, man, this is awesome. So you go fast forward, you know, a couple years to what I'm just talking about, and it's like, well, what are you gonna do? And I'm like, well, maybe I'll just maybe I'll just go freaking sailing, man. Like that, you know. I mean, I've thought about that, like that'd be cool when I retire, you know. Like wife and I go out and sail around the world, you know, these are just dreams, really. Um but now all of a sudden this opportunity presents itself to to walk away. And that uh, you know, anyone who's done this kind of this kind of work um knows. I mean, I know I know guys, you know, that weren't military guys, guys and cops that kill themselves over shit like this, right?

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Eric Shelvy 2:08:40

Because you get who you you know, it's this question of who you are and what you do. And I would argue that most people, those are two different things. You know, I am this person, uh, I have two kids, and I work at this accounting firm.

Host 2:09:03

And but if I asked you, and I said, Well, who are you and what do you do? And you just say, I'm a cop. Right? That's one answer. Most people would have two different answers. My name's this, or I'm cop, I'm a Marine, I'm a warrior. Who I am and what I do are the

(Cont.) He Survived Fallujah… Then Walked Away From Everything | Eric Shelvy (Part 2)

Host 2:09:23

same thing.

Eric Shelvy 2:09:25

And um, you know, I think a lot in a lot of people, if you retired from whatever, whatever job anywhere in America, you know, um, whatever industry, uh, yeah, I retired after 25 years of being an electrician or being a plumber or roofer, whatever it may be, driving trucks, you know, working at whatever factory, um, and you just go back to your normal life and that was your job, and they get you a pension or dot or whatever, you and that's just the end of it. But for guys who do stuff like that, or like what we do, those those things are intertwined with each other. And to separate them, um for some is impossible. I I've I've seen uh uh cops kill kill themselves over that very question. You know, Marines do it for different reasons, um, but it it's kind of when you start like kind of peeling the layers back, you start realizing that they're kind of the same thing, right? And it's like the question becomes who you are and what you do. And it's the same for us. And that's a very, very difficult thing for guys to separate because it's like if you take my badge, then who am I?

Host 2:10:42

I'm just another sheep.

Eric Shelvy 2:10:46

You know, that whole like wolf and sheep and sheepdog thing, that that whole comparison, and I it's applicable to this conversation. It's like if I'm not a sheepdog, right? If you take away my canines, then I'm just a sheep.

Host 2:11:00

I'm not a sheep. I'll never be a sheep. Like I'd rather be dead than be a sheep. And for some guys, that's that's true. So that's a difficult question.

Eric Shelvy 2:11:12

I I I would I would argue, you know, amongst your viewers, like there's gotta be I would have to think there's gotta be tens of thousands of guys that ask that same question every day. I asked that question of myself um you know for years. Years and years and years. You know, six months before I walked away and for probably three years after I left. Asking that very question. Um and like, you know, it's it's kind of like what we talked about earlier, you know, it's either consumes you and kills you or you succeed.

Host 2:11:47

You evolve.

Eric Shelvy 2:11:48

Yeah. There's only there's only two ways this is going down for guys like us.

Host 2:11:54

It's all in or you're gonna be dead.

Eric Shelvy 2:11:58

And it sounds awful to say it like that, but it's I mean, this the stats are there to to prove the argument, you know, and it's not just like uh, you know, my buddy this, my buddy that, or this guy, you know, these stories. No, I mean, look at the the numbers are are there to support it. You know, the VA has the numbers, the law enforcement community has the numbers. I mean to like big agencies like NYPD, I mean, their suicide rates are through the roof.

Host 2:12:29

No one's talking about that, you know.

Eric Shelvy 2:12:32

Um these guys are dealing with these riots and shit like every freaking weekend now, all over the country. That's been going on for a decade, right? It's a madness.

Host 2:12:41

Um, but there's a price to pay for that, and a lot of guys are paying it. That's a great point, man. What uh what was the decision to make you? I mean, you kind of just discussed why you retired. But you uprooted your family. You had two young kids, um, but not young, young. I mean, they were Yeah. 10 and 12, something like that. And your wife, and you decide, I'm gonna buy a sailboat and we're gonna live on it. Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 2:13:11

Yeah, you want to take five?

Host 2:13:13

Yeah, let's take a break. Kind of coming back from the break, we had kind of left where you were talking about um you had gone to Alabama to, you know, take a sailing course and you know, kind of learn about sailing. At what point did you realize, man, I really like this? This is something I I want to like do full time.

Eric Shelvy 2:13:43

I don't think there was a a singular incident that um would define that. So I took some sailing classes and I was like, this is really cool. Um, you know, maybe something my wife and I could do, you know, later when you retire. Um I went down to Florida and took some some more advanced courses and learned a lot. And I was like, oh yeah, I really like this. Like, you know, this would be something, you know, and then at the time there was kind of these beginnings of like YouTube channels and sailings and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, man, that just that sounds like something I could do, man. That sounds cool. Um, you know, it's the freedom of the ocean, and you know, in the beginning, you've you have no idea what that really means, right? You just have an idea. Um, you don't know where it's gonna take you. So there was uh once I got uh some certifications to do it, uh we did a couple trips down to the Virgin Islands and and chartered a boat, you know, by our yourselves or with some friends and um when you charter a boat do you have to like show some type of like expertise or anything yeah they usually either ask for some kind of certificate of competency or some kind of resume that you know they're giving you a a million dollar asset right that's all I was asking so yeah there's there's some level of competency you have to demonstrate to before they'll give it to you so we went down there with the kids and the kids were young you know eight nine somewhere in that somewhere in that um range and uh when we went out for you know a week 10 days uh and I was like wow and the kids just like ate it up really you know just swimming jumping in the water just you know there was no uh internet there's no iPads there was no phones there was none of that stuff and they just like it reminded me of like when we were younger when you didn't have any of that stuff right so you just like uh uh you know I have a stick you have a stick let's dig a hole with our sticks and that's what we're gonna do for the next six hours that was our childhood man it's like my parents like get out of our house and then you came back when the the when the sun went down yeah that was it um and you had to call people's moms like do you know where Eric is like I don't know I think they went over to this guy they don't no one has any idea but uh it was kind of a controlled environment in a sense that like you know you're on an island like it's only so far you can go um but I would argue you know swimming around with turtles is probably less dangerous than riding your bike in a four-lane road great point all right um so I liked what it it did to them like I kind of saw this like um kind of childish uh behavior kind of come back and so and get away you know it's so easy just to give a kid an iPad and have them leave you alone for a period of time you know but they I think as any parent knows nowadays they they turn into little monsters you know especially when you try to take it back from them. Yeah yeah it's it's and I don't think adults are immune from that either 100% so I liked it um I liked what I did to the kids and all my wife was like yeah this is this this is cool and you know but that's totally different than let's go live on it. Yeah that's a totally different thing. Um so kind of this time I was like well I'm gonna walk away from from ATF and it's like what are we gonna do and I was like and this is right as like COVID's beginning um and I was really not happy with probably like many people what was going on in the schools um you know they just like cut them loose and it's like so now all of a sudden it's like now you're listening to like what's going on and you're like man I could teach you what you did in a week I could teach you in like an hour.

Host 2:17:31

You know and it's um yeah and we were essentially homeschooling our kids during COVID anyway dude. Right. Teachers would waste some time online and I mean not all of them but man bro a couple hours then like you're stuck teaching your Yeah and some of it's understandable right like no one knew what to do.

Eric Shelvy 2:17:46

You know the the the system's not designed to deal with something like that and no one you know no one knew what to do. And I kind of had this realization like I can I can do it I can do it better. I can do it faster better more efficiently and um you know and it's like well how are we going to pay for all this right like that's that's the big thing and it's um you know when I was able to walk away and then you know a little bit from the VA and I was like you know we can do this we can cut our cut our our cost of living you know in half you know when you start really kind of contemplating like what you need and what you don't need and um you know the military teaches you that you know you really come to terms with what is necessary and and what is not and it's easy to forget that you know when you're not around it all the time. Yeah I deployed lived in a con X box. Right a small one. Yeah you know I used to always think when I would be working with guys like man we gotta get out of here I'm I'm I'm starving I'm hungry man I'm like you know you're not starving like when you lose fine motor skills then you're then you're starving. Yeah that takes a couple days so you know it's all it's all relative. Everything is is relative. But you know this opportunity presented itself and uh we're sitting at home and you know I was talking to the wife about it and she's like yeah you know it sounds like an adventure like you know let's do it and I talked to kids and I was like you know I didn't make them do anything you know they they'd seen stuff down in the in the Caribbean and they liked it and obviously they don't know any better but they still got to vote you know I wasn't gonna make anyone do anything and explain to them like hey we got this idea to go sailing you know we'll pull you out of school and you know we'll we'll deal with school and we'll deal with life whatever we'll just go and you know are you in and you know my son was like playing hockey at the time so like um you know like competitive even though he was young was still competitive and I was like he was the one I was like kind of worried about like he's he might walk at this you know and um I was like look we can I was like yeah you won't be able to play hockey but you'll be able to go you know surfing and scuba diving and you'll be you'll be doing stuff you'll just be doing different stuff you know water stuff and um man he was like yeah I'm in I was like all right everyone's in so then when you start shopping you know and I I had started reading books uh a lot of books about boat everything I can get my hands on you know and started getting real into like the the history of you know early explorers and just the conditions and the stuff they went through it's it's incredible really what these guys did and um what they accomplished and you know so much of that stuff that they discovered and that we still use today and we have no idea you know where it comes from or why it is the way it is but we we still use it in our everyday lives even now so I really kind of got like sparked about this like idea of this this grand adventure and sailing the seas and but you again you really don't know what what that means you know or how complex it it can be or is and so I had an idea of what kind of boat I wanted and uh they didn't make a lot of them so it was kind of a it went from uh you know you have this idea you just well we'll go to Florida buy a boat and bring a truck and fill it up with all the stuff we want from Amazon and um which would have been a lot easier in hindsight. So I found a boat in in in Panama and I was like that's the boat I want I'm like I'm gonna fly down there and check it out and so I went to Panama and I was like okay and then it's like oh now stuff started getting real right like this is a lot of money it's like everything I have like sell the house like sell the couch like it's like an estate sale right like every everything like we have to sell every single thing we have to like make this happen and um and we did just that man just get on Facebook and and and start selling stuff off and you know kept a pile of stuff of you know memorable stuff you know and put it at my dad's house but sold the house sold the cars um which is shockingly easy you know Carvano just come pick it up on your driveway it's amazing um and just uh so we we obviously couldn't fill a truck up with stuff we wanted it was like four carry-on bags and and uh you know four check bags and packed up with stuff you know some boat stuff that I knew we would need and you know all the stuff you think you need that you don't need you know so you have you know four or five sea bags and uh some backpacks and flew to Panama whole family yeah what was that like dude I mean there's gotta be a sense of adventure but also a sense of responsibility dude like you're now leading your family on this adventure. Right and that's um that's kind of like there's like the sailing aspect of like the logistics of doing the thing and then there's like you know my perspective or you know as parents your perspective and it's kind of this all the things in in life that are it's kind of taken care of you know in modern life like schools and activities like someone organizes it someone deals with it. Yeah you gotta drive them around um but their education's essentially taken care of they're you know their doctor's appointments they make them for you like everything is just kind of automated to some degree right there's a there's a way to do things and you just do what what you're supposed to do and um but now all of a sudden it's like you know I read a with one book and it was just all about like kind of taking responsibility for everything. I was like man that's wise you know and I kind of adopted that that mantra of when you take responsibility for everything for finances for navigation for safety for education for kids finding friends activities you you take responsibility for every aspect of everything and um yeah it's a lot but it was like it was a challenge and I was like I can I can I can do it better. That's that was kind of the mentality I had like we're gonna do the the the basic school stuff they know that you have to do but we're gonna take a 12 year old and we're gonna teach you how the stock market really works. I'm gonna give you um a $500 we're gonna open an account and you're gonna watch it and we're gonna make moves and we're gonna see what happens and you know it's it's kind of like gambling right it's easy to gamble on things until it's your money. And then you know it becomes a numbers thing versus an emotional thing. So when it's yours you're obviously much more uh vested in what is happening and what is not happening. So I I just kind of adopted this idea that I was just going to take responsibility for everything. And if it blows up in my face then it's on me. And uh if it succeeds then it's on me. But I suspected that it it wouldn't blow up in my face which turned out to be accurate but um I just I thought I thought we as parents could do it better.

Host 2:25:17

Anyone try to talk you out of it?

Eric Shelvy 2:25:21

Yeah there were some reservations uh people had lots of questions um but I wouldn't say there was anyone that was like I know it does happen you know you talk to enough people and it's like oh my god you're gonna ruin your kids' lives what are you doing um you know they're gonna miss all this and um their friends and school and all these kind of things and you're like yeah and there's probably some validity to that and you know I go back to to my time you know in my adult life and I always I just kind of over the years I kind of noticed a a pattern to like all the assignments that I got that I didn't want like all the places I went that I didn't want to go anytime there was like a big unknown or a big risk it always tended to benefit tenfold it was just like a pattern that kept repeating itself you know you you can take it to like you know being uh furious about going to Malaysia was like I don't even know where that is and look at what stemmed off of that you know it's like well I'm gonna marry this foreign woman that doesn't speak a word of English and look where that ended up you know and it was just kind of this pattern that kept repeating itself I'm like it's it goes back to this like all in mentality you know it's like I'm gonna take this thing and I'm gonna do it and it's gonna be all in and we're gonna do it right and do the you know it's not um I wouldn't say doing it was a gamble you know there was a lot of research that went into it I mean there's a lot of a lot of learning a lot of reading a lot of research um but I was willing to take that challenge on because I thought I could do it better. And I thought I could show them you know the world the world that I got exposed to as an adult you know my wife was foreign born she was traveling around the world with the brushing ballet you know I was traveling all over the world and I told the kids I was like in the beginning I was like look what I what I think is going to happen I was like what you're going to sacrifice as an adolescent is you're not going to have this core group of friends that you went to grade school with you went to high school with you went to college with and you're still hanging out in your 40s playing beer pong in someone's basement with the same people you grew up with like you probably won't you probably won't have that but what you will have is you will have friends all over the world and it will you know not to say one is better than the worst because who am I to you know but it will be it will be different and your world will be much bigger much much bigger and you know for me it was when I left the infantry and went to the embassy thing the embassy program like my world was like this you know I thought I knew all these things and it was just like wow look at all this stuff I didn't know and my world just got so much bigger and that's what I wanted for them. You know at some point in time they're gonna get older and they'll they'll make their own decisions about what they're gonna do with their life but they're what's available to them and what is kind of going through their mind is going to be so much more than mine was. You know as when I was 15 years old I was like all I want to be is a cop that was it. How how old were your kids when you started? So they were man, I want to say they were probably 10 and 12.

Host 2:29:00

And it's crazy man because I I've spent time with your kids recently but you know um and they're just they're different man. Like they've seen so much they're they're curious they can hold conversations about all kinds of I mean I I I mean your your daughter speaks better than half the adults I know. Right. And she's generally in interested and they you know they speak foreign languages and it's wild. Yeah I remember when you first told me uh you were gonna do it um I was so curious almost jealous like you're gonna unplug and you know and we've talked about this at length right like there's this there's this thing in the world where you know when you buck the system right when you you you do you go against the grain go live on a boat and it it comes with this freedom but a lot of people and I even caught myself in some of the conversations like just trying to understand it. Like I remember we had those conversations like well what do you you know what are you gonna do for sports and what are you gonna you know all all these different things and you know you kind of fast forward a couple years and you know now we laugh about it right because I look at your kids and I see like they know how to scuba dive and all these things that I couldn't fathom doing at that age. Yeah yeah me neither and you know the experiences they've had I mean well your kids are like on their second or third passport aren't they? Yeah yeah I mean I I don't know that you can put a price on that it's it was it's unreal. Um so you get down to Panama and you guys jump on the boat.

Eric Shelvy 2:30:29

Did you have a plan where you were gonna go or I had I did um I think the plan was the the boat was um seaworthy but it was old a lot of the systems were outdated so I knew it needed you know electronics and you know water making systems. I knew it needed new stuff because it was all ancient but the bones were were solid and um so I was like okay the general plan is going to be like get to Florida refit and um go from there Bahamas and you know like familiar grounds go to the islands and but there was so much that you know you didn't know and and in in in that world you know every your whole life plan can change in one conversation so we spent time in Panama you know and this is just like a quick example of that and then how it just spun off into all kinds of craziness and you know it was like we hung out in Panama we go to the San Blas Islands which are incredible and um you know we're talking to I was talking to somebody and they were talking about Colombia and I'm like man do I really want to isn't that dangerous like you know I'd never been to Colombia and even all my travels I didn't spend any time there none of us spoke Spanish you know it's a problem for insurance. You know a lot of where you can and can't go is determined by marine insurance and you know there's only a few there's only a few companies in the world that will even talk to you about insurance when you tell them what you're doing. Like there's there's no like uh there's no insurance policy it's like I'm gonna go around the world and I'm like okay that sounds good 60 bucks a month. No it's it's not like that at all. It's it's probably one of the more aggravating and difficult logistical obstacles to overcome is is the ins is insurance because nobody will nobody nobody does it and the ones that do um are hit and miss. So you really don't know. So there's a lot of a lot of risk and um you know you have so much of your finances wrapped up into this so it brings the stress up you know everything you do and and you you know you just don't know what you don't know. So I'm talking to somebody and they're like Columbia this and the food is great and the people are great and this and it's super cheap and I'm like that does sound pretty good. Maybe I'll just go to Columbia you know it's only a couple hundred miles and um yeah we did just that went to Columbia and you know and set up shop in uh Cartagena for a little bit and then we went to Santa Marta and the mountains and the people and the food and it was it was awesome. It was awesome and I was like wow this is fantastic and then um you know we kind of made our way um to you know Aruba and then Curacao down on the ABC Islands and in the southern part of the Caribbean and you know it just every day just kept getting better and better and you know you're dealing with um you know a lot of stuff breaking of course which happens every day you know you're in like the most toxic environment you can possibly put a piece of fiberglass is saltwater right like it is shocking the speed at which things will get destroyed uh in saltwater so it's a constant battle um but then you know we were able to get a bunch of electronics done in Aruba you know we found this guy who was a Dutch engineer did a lot of solar things and things like that and you know he fixed a lot of our our power issues and so you know throughout this time in the Caribbean we just kind of learned like okay you can do stuff here it's um more of a pain it's also much cheaper than going to Florida and doing something so you start learning how to navigate you know logistics of things you you know life without Amazon or a cell phone is incredibly challenging you know something as simple as um you know you log into your bank and you got to get this code from your phone well what if you don't have a phone what if you don't have a phone number you know you can't get into anything you're like cut off you know and it's kind of like when you don't when you don't when you buck the system if you will you say well I'm not gonna play that game well the system pushes back. Oh yeah we had a lot of conversations about that yeah and it's like um you know you call you like well can I how do I get into my bank? Well we have to verify you like I'm verifying myself right now that's why I'm talking to you. It's like well the phone didn't tell us you're verified. It's like what does that even mean? Like I'm verifying myself right now like we send you DNA samples what you want so but you you meet so many people uh from all over the world and there are ways to do things it's just more challenging you know did you find the risk was not I don't want to say risk reward um did you find that you know having to deal with those inconveniences was worth what you were having for experiences because you know the stress is uh your stress levels are through the roof you know and you know knowing how to to sail or you know to make the boat move from A to B that's probably the easiest thing right so you you think that's a lot of it it's part of it but it's really not you know it's there's so much more you know at what point in your life are you rewiring things and our boat was 230 volts you know because it was European boat so it was like you know I smoked a microwave because of the frequency differences in electricity like at what point you're like oh is that microwave 50 or 60 hertz you know how many amps does your refrigerator pull like and now you're you're having to calculate all this stuff and you're just learning by um you know by trial and error and talking to people there's so much knowledge so much knowledge of of people you meet and everyone is the community of people out there living that life are is is incredible. People from all over the world Dozens and dozens of languages and cultures and creeds and all of it, and there's just so much knowledge, and everyone's so willing to help. And you know, a lot of people are like, you know, well, who do the kids hang out? I'm like, there are kids everywhere. Everywhere we went, there was kids, you know, and you know, then Starlink started becoming a thing, and that was like a huge game changer. Um, you know, with school and communication, I mean it was it's incredible, really, like incredible. Yeah. Um, you know, I don't in in the in the world here, I don't think it's necessary in a lot of unless you live in like a cabin or something like that. But when you're traveling around like that, I mean it's just unbelievable how much of an advance in technology that is. You know, you can stream school work, you know, these kids were doing school, it's like they're done by 10.30 in the morning, you know, they just get up, get it done, you know, they start uh not doing what they're told and then just doing what they know they need to do, and then they're done. And when you're done, you're done, and then we go play. You know, and it's like you're done by you know 11 in the morning, we eat lunch, and then we do two scuba dives in the afternoon, and everyone's exhausted, and you're asleep when the sun goes down, and you wake up and and and do it all over again. And you know, and things like WhatsApp and these groups started getting created, and some apps out there of how to find boats with other kids, and it's like man, to be in a in a you know, isolated island um with an anchorage with seven boats with kids on them, and it's and it turns into like Lord of the Flies, right? You know, 12-year-olds hanging out with seven-year-olds, and it's just like there's a horde of kids running amok on this island with no phones, no iPads, and just like I have a stick, you have a stick. Yeah, let's go hit coconuts with sticks. And um, yeah, it was all it was great. And I I think, you know, it I think part of it was me wanting to do it, but the other part of it, probably even more so, was like, let's see what like how we can open the world for these kids. And much like the military, you don't realize how much you gain for it from it until you step away from it. You know what I mean? Kind of like that analogy, you know. I said earlier that I was like, you don't know, you know, I wish there was a way you knew you were in the good times when you were in the good times, you know, because you never realize it until it's over with. Yeah, it's kind of that you don't appreciate something until it's gone. Yeah, but we're back now, and you know, it's like now I'm seeing the result of all of that in first hand, and it's it's cool tool to watch.

Host 2:39:21

What was um what was the conversation like early on with with your wife as your guys are getting started in Panama? Was she I mean, obviously she was super supportive, but you know, was there was was there challenges as your guys are all learning these things? Obviously, you'd you had read a lot of the books, learned how to sail, um, and I know she did you know what she could, but you know, that's a whole different ball game, right?

Eric Shelvy 2:39:43

Like oh my god, yeah. Yeah, I mean the stress levels through the roof. Like you want to talk about a test of like uh uh family or like small unicohesion, like that's the test, you know. And some are successful and some are not.

Host 2:40:01

What was uh what were some of the early-on struggles, you know, the first I guess the first year? Because you lived on the boat for almost four years.

Eric Shelvy 2:40:08

Yep. Yeah, we were out there for like three and a half years. Um I mean, this I think the struggles in the beginning just come from uh just ignorance, right? You you know, you you this the systems of the boat, you don't know them, you don't understand them, you don't none of it makes sense to you. You know, why is this thing doing this? Why is this alarm going off? Um you just that's where all the stress comes from, is just not knowing what the hell you're doing. I mean, really, and it's like the whole boat's just like crumbling around you, lightning's cracking. It's just like no one speaks English, like, you know, but you learn how to navigate those things, and as time goes on, it gets easier and easier, you know. Within a year, or maybe even two, it's like, man, there wasn't a noise, a crack, a creak, a beep, a sound on that boat. I'm like, I know exactly what that is, I know exactly what tool I need, I know exactly what that problem is. But in the beginning, you know, it's like alarms are going off, and you it's like not only can I not fix the problem, I can't even tell you what the problem is. Yeah. Right? And there's no one to ask. It's not like your check engine light goes on, you pull into the shop and you say, My check engine lights, you gotta fix it or learn how to fix it. You know, it's you know, if you have a toaster and your toaster doesn't work, you plug it in and it doesn't work, you just go get another toaster. But what if you can't? So now you get online and you spend, you know, four hours of your life learning about toasters. Right? So that's over like, no one knows more about toasters than I do. And that's every single system, because every single system, every single thing will break at some point. Um, and that's what you're just gonna do for two days. You're gonna learn and research, ask people, you know, and then if you need parts and it's like, wow, we gotta fix this thing from Europe or or somewhere, and um so yeah, it's incredibly, it's incredibly difficult. I compare it a lot to uh like learning how to play a guitar. Right? It's very difficult in the beginning, but once you get over that first hump, now you're just incremental, incrementally learning, you know. But it's most people don't get over that first hump because it's it's so much at once. It's like, you know, can I hear the rhythm? Can I make two different hands do different things at the same time? And um, but once those things click, it kind of comes together. And then it's like it's incremental. You're like, okay, well, now I can spend two days learning about this toaster instead of trying not to make the thing sink in the first week, right?

Host 2:42:54

How um how long would you normally stay in one place with the boat, or did it really vary and what was the variance?

Eric Shelvy 2:43:03

Um well, weather is everything. You'll you'll never pay more attention to weather um ever in your life. Because weather is everything. That's if you meet a sailor, that's what we talk about. Do you see the weather? Yeah, I saw the weather. What do you think? You know, different models, different opinions, you know, wave heights and currents and wind, and that that is everything. You know, it's like this is a great place today, but by tomorrow at noon it's gonna be awful in here, so we have to go somewhere else. Um, some of it's Visa stuff, you know, and you know, you can stay in a place for 90 days or 60 days or wherever it may be. Um, some of it's the people, you know, you you link up with people that you get along with. They have kids that are about your age, all the kids get along, and you kind of become this like you know, posse of this little armada of kid boats, you know, that kind of roam around. And um, you know, they have an idea, you know, you're like, hey, we're gonna go to Columbia or Bonair or whatever. You're like, I don't know anything about that place, you know. Like, what what's you know, what's the deal there? Like, well, this and this and this. You're like, yeah, well, are you guys going there? When are you leaving? Tomorrow? Hey, you want to go to this? Okay, sounds good. Let's go. And you can do it just like that. And that's kind of how it all changes in one conversation, and you meet so many people going in so many different directions, and everyone has knowledge about a place you don't, you know, especially in the beginning, you know, so you're listening and asking questions to anyone and every anyone, you know. I mean, to go to a you know, a beach bar with a bunch of sailors, man, that's like the amount of information you can acquire in in an hour isn't is shocking. You know, like maybe this family has been sailing for six months, but this old French guy's been out here for 25 years, and you know, yeah, it's gonna be this tomorrow. And um, it's like, well, I'm gonna listen to that guy, and maybe I'll listen to this guy, and there's just there's so much knowledge out there. So where we go and when we go and how long we stay uh depends. You know, it's like if we want to go diving at this place, then we go there. And if we like it, we stay f for two months. And if we don't, we stay there for three days and leave. Go to the next country or the next island. So it there's plenty of times where um you go somewhere and you're like, okay, I'm gonna go to Colombia because the labor's really cheap. I'm gonna get my, you know, some paint put on or something like that, because I know it's really cheap there. And you're like, and you're like, we'll be there for a week and then we'll go here. And then four months later, you're still in Colombia because it's awesome.

Host 2:45:47

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 2:45:48

You know, and then there's places that you think are gonna be fantastic and and they're not, and you leave. So you have that you have that freedom, but the weather's a huge a huge part of that. Some places you just can't for whatever, you know, you have to wait for systems to pass through, and so you'll never be more in tune with with the weather.

Host 2:46:09

What um where did you go initially? So you started off in Panama, then you went to Columbia. Where'd you guys go off to Columb? Did you guys go through the Panama Canal?

Eric Shelvy 2:46:17

We did, but not for a couple years. Okay.

Host 2:46:19

So we kind of went so you start off on the Atlantic side, I think.

Eric Shelvy 2:46:22

Yeah, on the Atlantic side of Panama. Uh we did go through the canal on some some friends' boats, you know. The canal requires you to have a whole bunch of people on board, and so that was a cool experience. Um, but I didn't I didn't want to go to the Pacific, like we definitely were not ready to like do that. Um you know, I wanted to spend time in the Caribbean and and Bahamas and do all that. And yeah, it was kind of familiar grounds, if you will, you know, or the illusion of it anyway. Um so yeah, we went to Aruba, spent a bunch of time there, and then we just went to Curacao, and then we went straight north across the Caribbean to Puerto Rico, and then we went down the whole island chain, you know, through the Caribbean all the way, you know, Guadalupe and Martinique and St. Martin, St. Vincent, down to Grenada, you know, and then you gotta be, you know, you gotta be north or south of you know the hurricane belt, you know, during that time of year, you know, for insurance purposes, and you don't want to be in a hurricane.

Host 2:47:27

Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 2:47:28

Right? There's that. Yeah, there's that. Um, but you you know, you can move, you know, you know, weather forecasting's gotten a lot better. You know, if something's brewing, you're gonna know about it, you know, a week out, and you know, we can do a thousand miles in a week. You know, we can be in Brazil in that amount of time. So, um, but it's it's always on your mind, you know, and we spend a lot of time in all these places, um, and they're all awesome in their their own way, you know, uh, for different reasons. And um you just you like I said, you meet a ton of people and you just kind of start linking up with families, and it's like we rolled around with like a horde of kids everywhere we went. It was almost to the to the point where like, you know, you you people be like, man, where are the kids who are the kids gonna hang out with? And it's like sometimes we have to leave an anchorage and go somewhere just to like get away from everyone for like a few days. Because it's just non-stop, right? And it's it's it's great, you know. The kids don't go out and and ride bikes, but they just take paddleboards and they just paddleboard around to each other all, you know, or swim. It's like, dad, can I take the dinghy? I'm like, just swim. Just jump in the water and swim to the next boat and hang out later, you know, and you know, it's constantly um, you know, everyone gets together and has you know rum drinks at the sunset and shoots shit and talk about the weather, right? Yeah, talk about how uh all of our boats are broken. Yeah, it's like you got a problem. I got a problem too. We got what you got a problem, yeah. We all we all got problems, and you know, you kind of collectively like, do you have one of these parts? Yeah, I got one of those, but I don't have this, and you know, it's um it's just such a cool lifestyle, but it is challenging in its own right.

Host 2:49:19

What were uh what was one of the the worst things that you had to deal with, excluding weather? Because I know you got some good weather stories we'll go into.

Eric Shelvy 2:49:28

I mean worse things, I mean it's just logistics, like something you know, you may need like uh the generator stops working, and you need this three dollar part that you could you know get from Amazon between four and eight tomorrow morning. And now it's like I have to FedEx it, it's gotta go through customs or a freight forwarder, and it's gonna take a month to get here, and I'll have to pay off like three people. So it's gonna this three dollar part I could get in 12 hours now, it costs 70 bucks and takes three weeks. So there's like a couple things that are like what I call showstoppers, you know, like where you're just immobilized against and there's nothing you can do about it, right? So like the engines need to work, right? You have to be able to make water. Um, I mean, hell, if you don't even have any sails, you can still move, right? So that's a big inconvenience, but it's not a showstopper. But water, power, and and mo and propulsion are what I call showstoppers. So when something like that happens, um that that sucks, you know, and but you know, it's ironic, you know, like I just alluded to a few minutes ago, it's like we got immobilized probably half a dozen times, and it's like, man, the stress level goes through the roof, you're stuck on a work dock in some freaking island, and no one knows how to do anything, you can't get anything. Um but that's the time when you meet the people you're friends with for five years. It's like whenever something terrible happens, it always tends to be workout, it always tends to be for the better. Like it you never realize that at the time because you're furious, right? But it just uh it's again, it's this like recurring theme that whenever something terrible happens, something great always comes from it. That's what I noticed.

Host 2:51:34

What uh what were some of your best memories on that boat? I know you got a lot of them, but like some of the things like now that you're off the boat, um that you guys think about or talk about as a family, or I mean I I think it's this the time, you know.

Eric Shelvy 2:51:51

Um you know, I in the world, they call the world like here, you know, you're driving kids, you you take them to school, you drop them off, they're gone for 10 hours, you're at work, and you pick them up, you drive them to practice, they go do their thing and come back, everyone shoves a bunch of food in their mouth and goes to sleep, you know, and does this shit for an hour and then everyone's out, and you do it all over again, again and again, and then there's a tournament this weekend, and you gotta do this hotels and this this this rat race mentality. And you know, I I quickly became aware, and even much more so now, is the it's time, right? So there's four of us on a boat that's probably I don't even know, let's just say like 200 square feet at most, right? Which seems tiny, um, but it doesn't when you're out there, because you know, every window, every the doors are always open, the windows are always open. You live essentially outside, and your windows are horizon to horizon in every direction all the time. So it doesn't feel that small. You know, when stress levels go up, it can feel very small very quick, you know, because you're like literally bumping into people, and um, but it's the time. Yeah, I mean, my we would I would sit out on the back of the boat, smoke a cigar, and just talk to the kids for two hours, three hours every day, seven days a week. There wasn't uh a conversation that was had, an issue that wasn't dealt with, a problem we didn't encounter, um, that we weren't all actively a part of. Everybody, no matter what, good or bad. So it's just the time, the conversations that were had. I mean, you know, like my dad would come out, you know, the kid's grand grandfather, and he would come out for like a month, and they'd be like, grandpa's driving me crazy. I'm like, think about it like this. You spent more time with your grandfather in one month than most people do their entire lives. You know, you spent 24 hours a day, seven days a week, ate every meal together. There's no television. You just talk, you you eat together, you suffer together, you play together. The good times are great, the bad times are terrible. Um, but you're all there for all of it all day long. Like a 12-year-old is not going to, in normal world, um help you buy a house or be next to you at every step of the way when you're dealing with lenders and brokers and all this stuff. But when you're doing it on a boat, they're with you for every all of it. Every conversation, everything all day long. So they're just getting exposed to like adult issues and adult conversations and the things that you that you they will encounter in their life very soon. And now, um, I don't know if that was I don't think I did that intentionally, but they're just there for it, right? The good, the bad, like they've seen dad at his absolute worst and at your absolute best, and and vice versa. Everyone's there for everything. I mean, you just sit there and and look at just stare at the ocean and just have a conversation with uh your 13-year-old for four hours a day, every day, seven days a week about whatever. And we're not talking about TikTok, we're not talking about volleyball practice, just like life shit. Stars. Like, let's talk about the moon for an hour, you know. Or I was reading this book earlier, and I was talking about this and the stars or the ocean or life or stock markets or anything, anything the kind of conversations that like you and I would have. You know, you could take my my 16-year-old, 17-year-old, and put him in this chair, put her in this chair, and she can talk to you for three hours without skipping a beat. My son could do it in in Spanish. Yeah, literally. So um, I I you know, knowing what I know now, I think the most valuable thing is is is time. You know, it's the one thing you can't get back.

Host 2:56:13

You know, I noticed something when we came and visited you guys recently. Um, your kids, you and I were sitting out talking quite a bit. That's what we do. Um, and I noticed that your kids like wanted to be there in that conversation. I mean, we stayed up late one night, everybody else gone to bed, and it was just me, you, and both your kids. Even my kids were, you know, off doing their thing. But I noticed like your kids like craved having that conversation. Yeah. And even when they weren't a part of the conversation, it was just you and I. Like, I I remember watching your kids sitting there intently listening.

Eric Shelvy 2:56:45

Yeah.

Host 2:56:45

Like they were trying to learn and absorb. And it's just it's something you don't see very often. But man, I I remember talking to my wife that night, you know, when I went to bed and was just like, it's wild. Like it's it's it's amazing. Cause in a culture where I mean, my my kids aren't um, they're great kids, but you know, again, man, they probably spend too much time on electronics, like all of us. And look, man, we lock them down and we try to monitor it. They're only allowed so much time, they're not allowed to have their phones in their rooms, we don't have TVs in the room, and that's you know, people can say whatever they want, but I we're doing the best that we can, right? But you can't, you know, you can't make them hide from it.

Eric Shelvy 2:57:20

Uh no, you can't because it's it's gonna be a part of their entire lives. Sure. So you can't totally cut it off, but it's but I'm just hyper aware of how how present your kids were. I guess that's the word I'm saying. And I've noticed that, you know, we all notice it, you know, even being back, we have this house now, we have all this space, and everyone's got their own rooms, and you know, it happens all the time now where I'll be sitting on the back porch just hanging out, and it's like all and you just like you kind of look around and like all four of us are just sitting there within like six feet of each other, just like shooting the shit. And you know, the kids like, yeah, I don't want to be in my room, it's boring, there's nobody in there. You know, you're so used to being around each other and being a part of every conversation all the time that when you're you're almost uncomfortable when you're by yourself, like this is boring. I want it, you know.

Host 2:58:10

No, it was just something, it was just a small observation. Um, you know, and they just yeah, great kids. You have a great family. Um, and I do too, but it's just you know, we haven't had that. I'm I'm I you know, if I'm totally honest, I'm really jealous, right? Because to to see, you know, how close your family is and and how you guys operate. You know, we my my son and I, we had not talked about linking up for a couple of years since you've been on the boat, but you know, I remember you'd be like, Hey, just fly out here. I'm like, bro, I can't just unplug from my life. And you know, I mean again, we're in the rat race. We got practices and work and you know whatever. Um, but we did. My son and I flew out and stayed on the boat, and it was just awesome, you know, just a small we were there for seven or eight days and just to get a small look of you know what it was like, but and we were on the dock too. Um, but you know, man, like it it it's it's an it was an amazing experience, man. Uh and it was just the time that I got to spend with my son because your kids were going to school during the day. So sometimes me and you would get up and like me, you and my son went um snorkeling, and you know, I was watching you teach my son stuff, you know, obviously because I don't know. Actually, I don't think I'd ever been snorkeling. I scuba dived. So I I remember telling you, like, dude, I've never been snorkeling, bro. I only scuba dived. So that was kind of a new experience to me, which is kind of funny. Um, and my son got to go out and you know to the ocean. Uh, we went way off the coast because we went a couple times. Yeah, it was just an amazing yeah. Another thing, I mean Natalia would go buy fish in the in the morning, and you know, Natalia's a great Eric's wife's an amazing cook, and we had an opportunity, I think it was the last evening, and I'm like, you know, we Natalia asked, you know, me and my son, like, hey, would you guys rather go out to eat or we can just cook? And my son was like, Can we just can you cook for us again? You know, it was it would because you know, again, my son and I are the only ones in our family that eat seafood, and you know, we were eating too like that's all that's a question you get a lot, right?

Eric Shelvy 3:00:02

Like, so how do you get do you just go fishing every day and that's how you eat? I'm like, no, we go to grocery stores.

Host 3:00:07

Yeah, but even that fit, I mean, a tie would go on the dock and talk to one of the fishermen, and we were eating I grew up.

Eric Shelvy 3:00:12

It's a lot cheaper to just you know, a lot of people ask me about fishing, and there's plenty of sailors out there that love fishing. I'm I'm okay with it, but it's an expensive hobby, right? And you just have to really enjoy it, you know. And you get a big fish on the boat, and it's just a bloody mess, and you know, you gotta know how to flay it right, and you know, it's it's its own sport. I'm like, it's a lot easier just to when the fishing boat comes in, you just go ask those guys. It's like here's 20 bucks, and they'll give you three pounds of fresh mahi they just caught like 30 minutes ago.

Host 3:00:42

You guys uh you guys started a YouTube channel, and it's funny because we we still follow it. What uh what was the thought process and the genesis of that?

Eric Shelvy 3:00:50

Um, you know, there's some out there that are you know trying to make money and do all this stuff, and uh that wasn't what I wanted to do. I just kind of wanted to chronicle it uh in a way that um you know, so the family could see what we're doing and and have something that you could look back on years later and um you know reminis about. It's like, yeah, that was that was terrible, or that was awesome, you know. Even now, and it hasn't been that long since we've we've been back, and you're like, it's like you want to go to the beach, so I'm like in you know, in French Polynesia, like you know, it just gives a whole a whole new perspective of like what a pretty beach is, right? When you can just go anywhere you want, anytime you want. Um that was kind of my idea about it. It wasn't like let's try and get rich off of YouTube. I don't that sounds like too much work, you know. It's it's uh the YouTube thing's a a lot more work than I thought it would be. A lot of work, yes. It is, and if you do it right, it's it's a lot. I mean, you need like a team to do it, right? And um, you know, and sound and all this stuff, and it's just like let's just get a GoPro and you know, it's like you want like real footage, like give a GoPro to like a 12-year-old and just tell them to go take video. Like that's really all you need, you know. And it really wasn't like you know, my idea wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna teach you how to fix this or do that, or look at how this. I just I didn't want to do that. No, I didn't care about that. Like, I mean, when something's going horribly wrong, that's the last thing you want is someone to shove a camera in your face because I'm gonna throw somebody overboard if you if you do that. Um, but it was more just like the kids, man, just kids doing kids stuff, and like so people could see you know what we were doing. And maybe uh maybe it inspired someone to like, well, maybe we can do that, you know, and like man, those were some hard lessons. And you know, I think there's you know, knowing what I know now, um man, there's uh if if I could if I could go back to the beginning and I knew a guy like me, like I would hire me to teach me. Yeah. Because it that that's where all the stress comes from. It's just stuff you don't know.

Host 3:02:59

Dude, I remember when we were in Arub and I was on your boat. I I felt like a kid, like, why is the sky blue? Why, why, why, you know, why is the water I asked you so many questions because it's you you get used to living on land, like living on a boat, it's a different world. And I was just so curious. I mean, I I remember when you know you guys were making water. I I knew that that that that those systems existed, but I didn't know you could put it on a boat. Like I didn't know, I mean, and again, man, you were making your own fresh water out of salt water on the boat. I remember just that alone. I was like, you can do that, yeah. You know, because it's things you don't think about, right? And then, you know, the the the power and um you know the generator and just you know learning the sailing systems and the electronics you had on the boat and the maps, and I think sometimes in life, man, we come up with every excuse of why we can't. And I think one of the things that I was so impressed about your journey, because I stayed apart with you the whole journey. I would track you, we would talk all the time, um, is you have consistently found ways to figure out how you can. And it's inspiring. And in a world where you know, we live, not everybody, but a lot of people are full of doubt, and I can't do this, and oh, you you can't do that, and you wouldn't be able to go here. And I mean, I I I run that that that thing sometimes as well.

Eric Shelvy 3:04:09

But I mean, and I think, you know, to be totally honest, I mean, there's a lot of people that can't literally, you know, financial or whatever, but you know, this opportunity presented itself, and I just took it took it. Yeah, you know, the door opens, you you got two options. You can go through it or you can't.

Host 3:04:27

So what are you gonna do? Um, so you sold you, you guys sailed all the way all around the Caribbean, um, and then you guys made a decision to sail across the Pacific. What was that thought process like? And you know, talk a little bit to the the preparation and planning.

Eric Shelvy 3:04:46

So we had a couple uh a friend boat, or we call it like a buddy boat, you know, and they had a bunch of kids and they all got along, and you know, we got along with them real well. And um, they had this idea to go to the Pacific, you know, I was really against it for a while. I was like, no. I was I kept saying I was like, it's a one-way trip, it's you know, 10,000 miles. Um I just I didn't want to do that at that time. I was I I I danced with the idea of sailing to Europe. Um I thought the med would have been really cool. You know, so much there's so much land-based stuff you can do in, you know, you can so much culture in Europe, obviously. You know, the islands are you know, even in the Caribbean, are they're all different, but they're all generally the same thing, right? You know, um but I thought Europe would have been really cool, like castles and you know, you know, all these different languages and cultures. And so I danced with that idea, but that's still, you know, you're going across the North Atlantic, and that's daunting, you know, unto itself. Um but they they're like, man, go to the Pacific, go to the Pacific, you know, and I'm like, I don't know. But it took me I don't know, it took me a f a few months, I guess. And yeah, I know we I know we needed to upgrade like engines, like I knew there were some really expensive big ticket items that were gonna have to be done in order to do something like that.

Host 3:06:13

And um, you know, eventually I got convinced, I was like, all right, let's go.

Eric Shelvy 3:06:21

You know, and you just made this just like that, like one conversation, you just make the decision. You're like, all right, we're going across the Pacific. Are you guys want to go? Okay, let's go.

Host 3:06:28

What uh what kind of I mean, other than the mental preparation, what type of you know, preparation and planning and how long did it take? I mean, obviously, I know it took a while to finally convince once you make the decision, hey, we're going.

Eric Shelvy 3:06:39

Um Man, there's so much to there's so much that goes into that, right? It's not just like, well, let's go that way. There's you know, you gotta have three or four months worth of food, like all your systems have to work and they have to work properly. I mean, it's not like uh, you know, we're gonna put the sales up and sail for five hours to the next island. This is like we're gonna put the sales up and not put them down for a month, you know, and when the systems are all running like that, you know, there's um things get worn out. Uh, you know, you're doing five years worth of sailing in three weeks, you know. So you got to make sure you have, you know, spares to everything, you know, all your lines gotta be in good shape. You got backups for those, you know, you gotta have backups for backups for backups of of everything, you know, months worth of food, you know, again, the showstoppers, right? You know, water power and propulsion, you know, and and you gotta make sure you have enough solar to run the water maker, to keep the systems running at, you know, at full power, you know, your what time of year, the weather patterns, um, communication systems, you know, it's like, well, you just put solar on it and it makes this, and that's like, yeah, but what time of year is it? Is it the equinox? Like, at what angle is the sun gonna be during this month, you know, crossing? Because that makes a difference. You know, ten degrees of angle of sun can be full batteries or half batteries, you know, and there's there's so much of kind of nature that you know you get in tune with when you're out there like that. Like what uh what are the moon phases? You know, uh it what are the currents, what's El Nino doing, you know, there's so many variables, and that's one of the things I liked about the lifestyle as much as I did was just like you really do get in tune with nature. You get b your body and your mind kind of reharmonize with with the the planet, you know, the cosmos, whatever you nature, whatever you want to call it. You know, it's like you go when the sun's up, life is good and you're happy when the sun's down, you know, if the if there's moonlight, uh you know, um a three-quarter moon on on a clear nine in the ocean is like daytime. You can see for 10 miles. But uh no moon, you can't even see the front of the boat. You can't see 20 feet in front of you. And that makes a big difference, you know? Uh, because then you're just taking big waves and you never even you never even see them coming, right? So it's you have to have a feel for it. And so, you know, moon, um, you know, uh a new moon versus a full moon is is can be a world of difference in um you know mentality and morale on board. You know, sea state's a big thing. You know, it's like it, you know, uh a 20-degree angle in the in the waves can be the difference between um having a glass of wine with your meal or everyone vomiting all over the place like continuously for days, right? And everyone's seasick and and throwing up and um that makes things really, really, really challenging because no one gets about enough rest, and you know, and then it falls back to you, and there's you know, you can you can power through 24 hours, you know, if you have to by yourself. You know, you'll be dead to the world, but you can do it, but you can't sustain that for days or weeks, like this it's just not sustainable. So, you know, in the beginning, it's like, you know, my son learned a good lesson about not scarfing down um you know, leftover pizza before you go offshore, right? That's a you know a self-correcting mistake. Like you're gonna be throwing that up in about three hours from now. Right. So uh yeah, don't do that, you know, and um sea sickness, uh, some people get it really bad, some people don't get it at all, you know, and it's like it's non-curable, you know. So you do what the best you can to you know be hydrated and not eat junk food or whatever, you know, prior to going offshore. And uh, you know, like this again, the sea state is is everything. You know, if you can get the waves behind you, it's it's great. It's what they call champagne sailing, right? Like, I could do this forever. But you turn that boat 180 degrees and it could be the worst, the worst ride of your life. So there's a lot of variables, and you're constantly taking that into account. And something like the Pacific, um, you have all those things, but then you just you know magnify them tenfold, right? The Pacific is much bigger, um, the waves are much bigger, the the it every everything is just bigger. And you know, for me, you know, I could sit here and talk to you about the Caribbean and be like, oh yeah, you know, Antigua and you know, Grenada, you know, like you have a general idea where that's at, and you're like, oh yeah, it's only a three-hour plane ride. You know, that's kind of our backyard, if you will. But you start talking about um, you know, Polynesia, and it's like people are like, yeah, just go to this aisle, and you're like, man, I can't even like pronounce that. They someone says so it's like I have no reference in my mind for like where that's even at. And then you like, you know, you plug it into like Google Maps, and it's like it's so tiny that you can't even get a reference for it because you have to zoom in so far to even see it, and then there's just nothing within 700 miles to like even compare it to. It's like here's North America, and here's you know, New Zealand, and then there's like specs all throughout. So you have to learn maps and you're talking you're talking to as many people as you can, and you know, there's a lot of people doing it, and nowadays there's so much information out there, and you know, people have made YouTube channels and blogs and and put out you know just such great information, and and uh again, like Starlink, man, that that changes everything, yeah. You know, um you can stay in communication with people, you know. Um so there's just a lot to learn, and it's a really uh it's very daunting.

Host 3:13:05

What was uh what was the triple like uh across the Pacific? Where was the where did you start from on the Pacific side and where was the first place you made it to?

Eric Shelvy 3:13:14

So we went through uh the Panama Canal, and that's it, man. You're just that's it. You just you're in the Pacific. Welcome. You know, the Caribbean, uh, you know, something like tides, you know, something is you know, we oh, what's the tidals? You know, surfers know it and you know, mariners know it, but it's like in the world, like what do you care what the tides are doing? Or you know, what's a king tide and a low mean? Like, no one, it's it's not it's not relevant to you until it is, you know. So you take something like the Caribbean, and it's like you have a tidal change of about a foot, which is not even noticeable. But as you go through the canal and you get into the Pacific, um, and the Pacific side of Panama and the tide is uh 17 feet, right? So you could, you know, anchor in 10 feet and be on the beach six hours later, grounded, and you have to wait until it brings you back up, you know. So how much anchor chain you put out and scopes, uh, there's just a lot more um a lot more going on, a lot more that you have to think about as a skipper, and and the currents are are much stronger and the tides are much bigger and the distances are much further. Um, you know, it's like, do we have enough fuel on, you know, you in the Caribbean, you don't need to carry 300 gallons of fuel because you can just get it at the next island, right? You know, uh a full load of fuel for for me, you know, 180 gallons of diesel, um, man, that would we we we get fuel maybe once a year. Like maybe eight months if we were burning a lot. Like it lasts a long time when you're not going that far. But here, this is a totally different thing, man. You know, um, you know, we're gonna go um almost 5,000 miles before we touch an island that has one gas station. So you guys may get there and they may not even have any fuel left.

Host 3:15:07

So you guys go out the um the Pacific side of the Panama Canal and that's it? It's just open sailing. Did you guys stop?

Eric Shelvy 3:15:12

We we we we stayed at a marina a couple days on the Pacific side in Panama and you know, make sure we have everything, last grocery runs. Um, you know, like can you know it's uh vegetables and stuff like that, those it doesn't last that long, right? So and you have no way to replenish it. So you have to take that into account. Like another like bread, bread goes bad, right? So do we have the ability to make our own bread? And you obviously can't grow like vegetables. Um, so you get as much as you can, and when it's gone, you switch to you know canned vegetables or whatever. So, what did you guys stock up on? What was the what was the groceries? Uh so for me it was snacks. I snack. Yeah, I like snack, man. Yeah, you know, and Panama was great because you know, they had these you know huge Costco type places where you know um I would get you know like the five-gallon bags of trail mix, and you know, I had like eight of them. I'm like, this is gonna last me like three years. Man, that lasted like three weeks. I eat a lot of trail mix, and then when that ran out, I was really unhappy about it.

Host 3:16:17

Um so you guys load up and then how long were you at sea before you guys hit your first port or island or whatever?

Eric Shelvy 3:16:25

So we left Panama in the first um some people stop in the Galapagos Islands. We did not. Um it's very expensive to stop there. Um there's a lot of bureaucracy, and some people do, some people just pass it. We just decided to just pass it. Um so it was like 4,800 miles, like 41 uh 100 nautical miles. So almost 5,000 miles of nonstop ocean. It took us I I was looking at it earlier because I had uh I had a screenshot of the the Garmin tracker that I took a picture of when we got there, and it was 701 hours, which is 29 and a half days nonstop, 24 hours a day.

Host 3:17:18

What um what were the hardships? Like what was one of the hardest things about crossing the Pacific?

Eric Shelvy 3:17:24

It's just the boredom. You know, in that stretch of water, you know, if you do it at the right time, which everyone does, you know, um there was nothing super crazy that that happened. Um you know, lines snap and things like that because they chafe, because they're you know, just that's a big the that's a big problem, you know, it's chafing lines, you know, just this very slow, subtle rubbing, you know, not a big deal by itself, but if you do it, you know, nonstop for a week, you know, it'll it'll chew right through it. You know, it's like a slow drip, it's only a drip until you let it run for 20 years and then it carves out the Grand Canyon, right? What was one of the worst weather incidents you had? So, I mean, there was we probably had, I mean, you try and avoid really nasty weather as much as you can. Um sometimes you just can't. Um you do get some pretty, you know, sometimes it happens at Anchorages. Um, and then you just, you know, you do what you can to make sure the boat stays where it's at. You know, you make sure you're in, you know, it's in deep sand and everyone's got enough space, you know, if anyone starts dragging, um, sometimes it happens offshore. Just wind, wind, lightning. You told a crazy story though one night about how you guys just finally like went inside the the inside of the boat and just it's like Yeah, I mean sometimes it just gets really I mean when the ocean wants to uh take a swing at you, man, it it does. And you're uh it's very humbling to be you know, I I think here in the world you have uh I call it an illusion of control. You know, you think you have control of your circumstances and your safety here. You know, it's like, well, I get in my car, I do it every day, I go from here to there, but it's like car crashes kill like more people than anything. It happens every day. I mean, 40 people die a day, every day, you know, in in car wrecks, but we assume uh cars are safe, I do it every day. But it's like I would never go in the ocean, that's dangerous. Well, you know, but statistically, it's you know, sailboats don't just crash into each other in open ocean. Like this, it just doesn't happen, you know, statistically. You know, it's something like, oh, the sharks, you know, you know, um, and this is kind of like a stats, you know, science versus emotion kind of thing, right? Like, man, the sharks, there's and there's a lot of sharks in the Pacific, you know, which is something you don't see a lot of in the Caribbean, but yeah, there's a lot of sharks in the in the Pacific, and um, you know, but it's like, you know, you you pull up like the stats, and it's like, man, um, you know, horses kill more people than sharks do, like by a long shot every year. But we have this illusion, um, like I call it an illusion of safety. Um, well, you know, I'm on this horseback trip, I got my helmet on, the the cowboys in charge of the the the trail that he's taking us on, and you know, we're safe, but you're not really safe. That horse wants to kill you, that horse is gonna kill you. He may just be having a bad day or get spooked by a f you know, a turkey or whatever and throw your ass across the the forest. Um but out in the ocean, you know, you the the the dangers are still. There, but it's this it's this you're taking out the middleman, are you safe or not? Because now your safety is totally on you, you know, and that's it doesn't change the reality of your safety, but it changes your perception of that reality. Because it's not like oh, I can you know stay in my lane, but if this guy drives across the road and runs into us, no, that's out of my control. But what if it wasn't? What if it wasn't your control? Um and you take responsibility, it's this responsibility for for every aspect of everything. You know, if we all die out here, then it's on me. And if we all don't, then it's on me. And um that reality, I think, remains the same in the world.

Host 3:21:36

I think we just choose not to um see it, accept it, um, or be aware of it or care, I guess, you know.

Eric Shelvy 3:21:48

You know, we you know, whether it be crime and you know, and it's like, you know, like we were in Columbia. I mean, I got like so many calls. Man, you should be careful in Columbia, it's a dangerous place. I'm like, man, I'm eating steak dinners every night for like 15 bucks.

Host 3:22:04

And well, we filmed like the documentary in South Africa, dude, and everybody told me not to go, like, and I'm I had the best time of my life tomorrow.

Eric Shelvy 3:22:10

That's like, do you know what the stats are? It's like Philadelphia is like a thousand times more dangerous than Cardenia. You know what I mean?

Host 3:22:16

And it's just kind of this um I think it's that fear, and people are so afraid to like get out of their comfort zone. Yeah, but when you finally get out of that comfort zone, dude, there's a whole other world out there.

Eric Shelvy 3:22:26

There's a whole other world. And I and again to go back to the beginning, like that's what I wanted to show these kids. You know, it's like uh a teenage girl, like when you're in foreign countries, like you can't wear booty shorts and all that shit you wear. Um, you know, you you're in a different culture, this is their culture. You're you're gonna draw attention you don't want, like, you can't do whatever you want. You have to be aware of your surroundings and um, you know, look at all the other women and see how are they dressed, you know, are they wearing tube tops on no, they don't wear that stuff, so you don't wear that stuff here. You know, you need to learn how to assimilate into this culture to not draw unwanted attention for whatever reason, you know, and and just be aware of you know your surroundings and who you're talking to and what you're talking about. Like, you know, if you want to, you know, talk about, you know, as a whatever teenagers talk about, like if you're talking to a kid from you know Denmark, like you're not gonna, they're not gonna know about this TV show on Netflix in America, so you don't talk about that, right? Like you're not and you maybe you do, maybe you teach them stuff and they make you aware of some stuff you didn't know about. And it's just this fantastic exchange of information and and culture and language and it's that human thing that we often we've become so tribal in the world of you know, my tribe versus everybody's, but man, it's it's so cool when you can shed that and meet people from different countries and cultures and experiences and have those.

Host 3:23:52

I think it enriches you as a human. It's been my experience. Like, yeah, all of my travels have really added um to my love for humanity. Yeah, for sure. Sometimes we focus on what makes us different, but I've tried to really focus on what makes us the same. Because when you take out what makes us different and what makes us the same. You and I were laughing this morning, and you alluded to it yesterday too. It's like, you know, things that we complain about now, people were complaining about it, you know, 2,000 years ago. It's just different. Like now it's like, oh, the internet's too slow. Back then it was like, oh, the horses are too slow, I can't get this message, you know. Right. It's the same crap. And you know, sometimes I think the crux of that conversation this morning was, you know, sometimes we we make things, we make solutions harder than they really are, right? We were talking about mental health. Um, and like, you know, we maybe we there's this idea where we think we need all these things for mental health, but do we? Like, you know, you talked about what worked for you, and maybe that's what worked for you, and who knows if if that works for everybody. You made a decision. Hey, man, this is what I'm gonna do. Here's what I'm here's why I'm going to live. Right. And maybe sometimes we've overcomplicated that in this mental health struggle that we battle for in the United States. You know, I did see a massive change in you though, like as your friend. Like when you went on the boat, I saw you like come to life, man. I mean, yes, I know you guys had challenges, then I got to go see you, you know, on the boat, but you know, it was clearly something that really helped you. Um not always, you know, not just from your mental health, but just in life, man. I think. And then watching you uh get that satisfaction of knowing that your kids' lives are being enriched. I know it like I I could see it. And we talked about it a lot. Like, you're not a super emotional guy, you're not the type to wear your feelings on anything, but I saw it and I got to spend a lot of time with your kids and talk to them too. Of um and and it's it's been cool from the outside to watch that genesis of your family, not just you. Obviously, I knew I know you the best, and I'm the closest to you, but you know, just hearing how your family interacted, the things you guys overcame, um, you know, and to hear your kids talk about the things on the boat and their experiences and how it, you know, they don't say things like, oh, it enriched my life, because that's not how kids talk, but that's generally what they're saying. They just don't know. 20 years from now. That's exactly what they're saying. Yeah. Um, so you guys go across the Pacific and you know, again, what what's your what's your YouTube channel? Uh Sailing to Altair.

Eric Shelvy 3:26:17

So Altair was the name of the boat. Uh and um, yeah, that was another big thing. Like, what are we gonna name this thing? And I was like, no one could agree upon anything. And I had uh I came up with that name. I had uh one of those Starfinder apps on the phone, and I would just sit there at night and I just I always thought star names were like cool and like the history and where they came from and all that stuff. And I was like, what about this one? Everyone's like, okay, and that's like how we kind of agreed upon it. Um so it had no super significant like meaning or anything behind it. It was just it was a unique name that we all agreed upon. Yeah, I love it.

Host 3:26:50

Um no symbol, no symbolic inner inner workings there. And we'll make sure we put a we put a link in in our description so you guys find it. If you guys, I mean, I don't know, dude. Uh the TV shows as of late, unless it's Taylor Sheridan, I I've had all you know, we watch YouTube a lot, and I can't tell you how many nights we sat around and watched your guys' YouTube channel because it's fun and you guys are always going on some different adventure and some different place. Um, you know, you get to see the kids, you get to see everybody in their real element. I mean, it's not like I I know this family very well. It's not like they were waking up in the morning and making a script of today on the YouTube channel, we're gonna none of that. This is straight up raw, it's almost documentary in style, yeah. Uh, and it's it's it's beautiful. Um, and so if you guys want a fun thing to sit down and watch over the course of a a month, you know, on the weekend, it's a and it's it's great. Family, you can watch it, you know, with your kids, and um it's it's awesome. What uh what was the decision point to decide, you know, after three and a half years of living on the boat, hey man, we're gonna come back to the States.

Eric Shelvy 3:27:58

Well, there's a there's a couple of different aspects of kind of why we um stopped sailing when we did, why we did. So part of it was my daughter's getting older, uh, so she's got to, you know, do SATs and start um you know prepping for college and things like that. But uh um so we kind of had a you know, let's just say a year and a half time frame of we have to decide if we're just gonna stay out here forever or go back, you know, and I felt like uh I felt like we accomplished or I accomplished, or we as parents accomplished what we set out to do was just like you can't show any everyone the whole world, right? But you can open a whole bunch of doors. And I felt like that we were successful in that. You know, instead of like, oh, I want to be a dental hygienist, it's like maybe I want to be in the foreign service and just keep traveling around the world for my whole, you know, like that's to hear a 16-year-old talk about something like that is not normal. And that was my objective to just not say do this or do that, or this is what I would do if I was 16. It's like I'm gonna show you a whole bunch of things and let you decide for yourself, but I'm gonna show you how big the world can be, you know, and it's not like do I want to go to school, you know, 10 miles away or 50 miles away. It's like, do I want to go to school in Spain or do I want to go to South Africa or you know in New Zealand? Um, and those are I wanted to like just demonstrate that like all these ideas are can very easily become realities. Very I very easily, like you know, to go like if you wanted to go to the University of Auckland, like it's the same application to go to the University of Florida. You just put your name on a piece of paper, submit your scores, and they accept you or not. It's the same thing. Um, but that sounds insane to some to most, you know. Um, you know, and you don't, you know, it's kind of like this. I wanted to expose you to the point that inspired you to do more on your own or show you that even the craziest of dreams can very easily become realities. And not just by I'm gonna sit here and tell you about it, but I'm gonna tell you about it, I'm gonna explain it to you, and then I'm gonna demonstrate it to you. And that's what I set out to do. You know, it's like um, you know, how many, how many high school kids do we know now that um, including myself, man, like when I went to high school, it's like, you know, two, three years of Spanish or four years of Spanish in high school and they can't say two sentences. It's like, but if I put you on a work dock in Colombia for three weeks and now you speak fluent Spanish, right? So there's like there's what the system says is acceptable, and then there's the reality of, and sometimes those things line up and sometimes they don't, you know, and it's like, you know, I had this kind of, you know, finances is like a big part of of of life. And and in the US, uh, we just don't, we don't, in our culture, we don't talk about money. It's wild. We just don't, but in other countries, it's like totally normal. You know, it's totally common to like talk about money. And it's like if I took my you know, 14-year-old and I'd be like, You see all those boats out there? How much do you think they're all worth? And he'd be like, that one's probably like 400. That one's like probably at least at least 1.2 million, you know, because those are real conversations we're having. He's present with a bunch of adults talking about adult things, how much things cost. Like, I mean, to like have a 15-year-old go to the grocery store years later in the US and he's like, Dad, you're like, what? He's like, Look how much does peanut butter cost. That's crazy, you know. A normal 15-year-old wouldn't ever give that a second thought. An adult would, right? You would notice that because you're the one paying for it. You're like, yeah, this peanut butter is crazy, man, or whatever it may be, or the cost of beef or whatever. Or just not just not that the price of food is the totality of it, but just the things that we as adults think about all the time. All the time. You're constantly, you know, whether you know, as a sailor, you're thinking about weather. As a as a parent, you're thinking about schools and costs and paying bills, and you know, it's it's it's non-stop, you know, and it's we all have it. Um, it's just different in some ways. But you know, when you have a bunch of teenagers that sit around and listen to adults talk, they, you know, not all of them do, but um, you know, some listen and they become part of it, and it because it becomes um relative to their right, it's like it's not relative until it is.

Host 3:32:46

What did your experience teach you about being a father?

Eric Shelvy 3:32:49

I I think uh the I kind of alluded to it earlier. I think the thing I learned the most, or what like what like kind of realization I had was how valuable time is. Like true, like truly, you know, in combat you become hyper aware of your own mortality. You know, um my dad's in his late 70s, I think he's uh hyper aware of his own mortality. Right? You know, my dad sailed with us across the Pacific for 30 days, and he just you know, and I it was it was a unique perspective for me to watch him because I'm stressing about all this crap all the time and not getting enough sleep and you know, and things like that. And but I just kind of like watched him and his just he was like almost like a kid in a way of just like I don't care if I die out here. Uh you know, and we were talking about something one of these. I mean, even for me to like just sit there and talk to your father every day, as men, you know, it's not as father and and boy, but as two grown men at different stages in your life to have those kind of conversations, you know, and I would be bitching about something or stressed out about something, and I and he would he would say something or do say something about like this, or I'm like, why are you spending your money on that? Or I'd make some comment, you know, you shouldn't buy that. That's a terrible financial decision. Like, why would you do that? It's crazy. And he would look at me and be like, what would you do if you knew you're gonna be dead in five years?

Host 3:34:35

And I thought about that for a minute and I was like, you know, what would I do if you knew?

Eric Shelvy 3:34:43

Not you don't know, of course, but statistically speaking, you know, if you're 95, you know you're not gonna live 40 more years, right? But that changes everything, right? Like you time and mortality and what's important and what's not all becomes very real. You know? And I'm like I'm thinking about it now as I'm saying, like, what if if you knew you had five years, without a doubt, you know, whether you know you're real sick or um or you're older or you're in an incredibly dangerous environment, you know, um, that you know, you become this, you become hyper aware of your own mortality and things that you never gave a second thought about previously all of a sudden became very important. Right. And you know, people now that I'm back and I I'm again I'm in this like unique position of like I get to like hit the reset button like midlife, you know, and people constantly ask me, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Um, and it's like I don't I don't know. And people are like, what do you mean you don't know like what you're gonna do? Like, I do I have to do anything, you know. No, I don't, but I I want to, I probably will, but um, and it's like, you know, you're gonna get a job, you can do this, and it's like, I can tell you no one can afford me. Not that I have some superior skill set, right? But you but you I know I now know what my time is worth, and it is so incredibly outrageous that no one will ever pay it. You know what I mean? It's like when you have a job, they say, Well, you have a job and this is your hourly rate, and you know, it's 10 bucks or 40 bucks or a hundred bucks, whatever it may be, and it's like, okay, you kind of like a tack on this value of what you what they think your time is worth. But what is your time really worth? Because in it's you know, I'm not a philosopher, you know, but you know, the reality is you do kind of only get one go-around, and there's no take backs, there's no going back, there's no fixing it. Um, and as a 20-year-old, you don't realize that, you know, by design, you know. Um as a 40-year-old, you probably become more aware of it. As like a seven-year-old, you're probably hyper aware of it, you know. So, what is your time worth? You know, and it's um, you know, if you're trying to explain something this deep as that to like a teenager, right? Uh, that's a whole different conversation, you know. And it's like, well, you know, I think it'd be really cool to be a freaking astronaut or whatever, like, go be an astronaut. I was like, now, nowadays, it's not like um, you know, well, how do I do that? Maybe I should talk to my guidance counselor. Now it's like, ask ChatGPT, how do I become an astronaut? It'll generate like a list of prerequisites, right? You got to go to to to school for this amount of time and have these kind of grades and get the there, there's there's a pathway to do anything. You know, if you want to uh if you want to make more money, you know, maybe you don't have to get the promotion, maybe you just need to spend less. You know, don't buy things you can't afford. Maybe if you want to have more time with your kids, like don't sign them up for you know whatever, you know, sport that takes you know your whole life in every dime you have to like facilitate this.

Host 3:38:17

Like, you know, is it does it make you happy or is it uh the illusion of happiness?

Eric Shelvy 3:38:27

You know, and those are very different, very different questions, you know, and it's you know, uh the clearly there's like you know, a lot of emotions wrapped in my mind that you know, they're not on the outside, they're on the inside, but there's also like my brain is also constantly analyzing statistically, you know, pragmatically, taking things apart, you know, you know, it's kind of the right brain, left brain, you know, engineering and artesian, right? So it's you know, what is happiness? You know, it's like you know, if you dig in the down the rabbit hole long enough, you know, it's like you get you ultimately get to the same question is like, what's the point?

Host 3:39:11

Right? What's the point? Why are we here?

Eric Shelvy 3:39:15

What is the point to to get this car, to get into this college, to get this job, to um climb the career ladder.

Host 3:39:24

Um okay, and then what? And then what? And then what? And then what? You know, and it's the sailing thing is like you know, when it comes to boats, right?

Eric Shelvy 3:39:36

Say there's this triangle, right? You have uh safety, speed, and cost. Right? And you only get two of the three, unless you have like millions of dollars, right? You only get two of the three. And um, you know, in life, it's it's kind of the same thing, right? You got health, time, and money. So you're only gonna get two of them. So you get to decide which two you want. So you can be um, you know, earn a fortune in your career, be at the top end of your you know, career profession, have a ton of money, you know, um, but then you're 55 and have a heart attack, and now you're screwed. Or you you, you know, and I'm just using the boat as an example, but um, you know, let you're 21 and you're like, I'm not going to college, I'm getting some of my buddies and we're going surfing for the next five years on this boat that costs 10 grand. Right? You're you're broke as you're broke as shit, but as that that's that's time, you're healthy and young to do it.

Host 3:40:44

You know? Um, so you only get two of the three. So which two do you want?

Eric Shelvy 3:40:53

You know, and you see that in the sailing world in that community. You know, you see young families, you see 20-year-old surfer dudes, and you see 65-year-old couples where the wife's ready to like jump off the boat at any given moment. Right? And you see the older couple and they're like, you know, they just physically can't. Some of them are like incredible, right? This guy's like, you know, guys are 85 years old and they look like they're 50. It's incredible. We've been out at sea for like three decades. But you see others that are not, you know, it's like clearly they they have this dream to go out and do this grand adventure. Uh they certainly have the money to do it, they've had you know successful careers, their kids are old enough and you know, and on their own kind of thing, but now they lack the the health to like do it or do it safely.

Host 3:41:38

You know, what uh what do you think the time on the boat taught you about yourself?

Eric Shelvy 3:41:43

Well, I think that's a lot of the same stuff. Yeah, you know, I think I think the answers are are intertwined with each other. I mean, they're clearly they're different questions, but I think the answers are kind of one and the same. Makes sense.

Host 3:41:53

Did um do you think it changed your your marriage?

Eric Shelvy 3:41:57

Yeah, I mean, I don't how could it not? Like uh, right? Every second of every day, every good thing, bad thing, you can't escape each other. You just you you physically cannot escape each other. It's like, what are you gonna do? Get in the dinghy and just go float around like a hundred yards away, like I'm out of here, and you go just and you're out there like Chris Farley out there with no wind, right? So, you know, that's always a big question as well. And that's it's one of those things that you just don't know until you do it. You know, it's it's kind of like having a kid. You know, you can read all the books you want, but you have no idea what's gonna happen until you do it. There's no way to. prepare there's there's ways to mitigate some risk maybe but you have no idea you just have to do it and I think that's applicable in in any aspect of life you know you don't know until you do it I think for us um I think it was I would I would probably say we had some of our best and and and worst moments like sometimes within hours of each other right you know because if if the captain's in a bad mood then everyone's in a bad mood right so if I think that that holds true at the house man of course I've learned not it's just uh in a in a in the house you can go in your room yeah you can escape it but you know you know you have a you know let's say for example um you know you're just something's it's usually when something breaks right or something floods or like some catastrophic freaking thing happened that's usually when the stress level just goes through the roof or you're tired you know which is usually a big catalyst of everything um because you never really like sleep I mean you do but you're like I mean eat you hear this little eat like what was that what was that you get up you walk around okay boat's still where it it was two hours ago you you're always poking your head out the eye you're like okay that light's still there so we haven't moved you know there's uh you know you get spun around in the middle of the night you know wind changes and you know stuff like that happens all the time all the time so you never really quite get the proper rest that you're supposed to um but you know when something breaks real bad and it's like it just sends me into like just a frenzy of like fury right and just to have um you know you can't just go in the garage and and smoke a cigar and blow off steam for two hours by yourself. You know and it's like and then like your 12 year old's gonna like just be in your way and you're just gonna lay it to him because he just you're just the one standing in front of me man. I'm I'm angry and you just happen to be the ones that's gonna get it. And you know to have a 12 or 13 year old just like call you out. He's like dad you're acting like an ass. And you have you can't escape each other you can't get away from each other and you're just like okay yeah that's that's probably right. I mean really I mean I could never imagine like calling my old man out as a 13 year old because you always have this ability to you know create distance you know physically mentally whatever but in that environment you just don't yeah you just don't so you have to deal with it and that's something that I guess I never really did. I I guess most people probably wouldn't I know I never um had to but you know it's like you know this started with you know like the marriage and I think it's the same answer for the kids. It's like you can't have a throwdown with your wife and then just like go to the bar and hang out or go in the garage or go find your own space for a few hours and she does the same and you cool down and then you you know it wears off and then you do it again a couple days later or whatever but you just you physically don't have the ability to do that. You're just like we're gonna have this throwdown and we're gonna work through it and then we'll be fine but you can't create that distance and and have that time you're just gonna do it all right here right now. And your kids are two feet away from you right so we're just gonna have a whole family throwdown right and then it's like if I'm acting like an ass uh you know and then the three of them will just gang up on you. And it's like you're like damn it I don't want to be a part of this conversation I'm just gonna it's where do you go? You're like I'm gonna sit up on the bow of the boat by yourself. Like everyone's mad at me right like that's funny. So it just it creates a unique environment where you just have to deal with problems whether they're boat problems whether they're you know um emotional problems or problems with each other what are there or the trail mix is all gone and I'm real upset about that. Like someone's gonna pay for that oh I heard that story um what was it like coming back to normal life um I wouldn't say like coming back to the world uh has not been as sh I don't think it's as sh been as shocking as any of like as you would think I think we're generally I mean I've done it so many times in my life personally and I think my wife as well where you're gone for years overseas for years and come back you know in in the military in the foreign service you do this stuff all the time so it's not super um nothing was super surprising um I think for the kids uh you know they're older teenagers now they're you know 15 and 17 and um so they're not like little kids they're they were in school before we left they were doing a pretty uh rigorous school program on the boat and it wasn't just me like this is how you do this because at some point you get to a point where like I don't know how to do that. Like I can't teach you calculus. I can teach you uh uh finances but I can't teach you calculus so they were doing like an online thing um which again with the the high speed you know Starlink stuff is you is totally accessible um and there's a million different ways to do the homeschool thing and uh we should probably do a whole podcast just on that yeah and I I couldn't even begin to explain a half of it you know because there's so many people that are doing so many different things from all over the world um so you it's not that I experienced all those things I just talked to parents that do this and you know you're constantly exchanging ideas about how to do things and some are better some are worse some are better for one person it that that's totally arbitrary as to what the proper what what the proper thing is you know but I I I knew they were gonna have to go back to the world at some point I knew um I wanted to set them up for success with the tools to come back into the world because it's going to happen um so I wanted like you're gonna do a rigorous program because when you get back you're gonna do you're gonna be back in the world right you can't just uh be a salient hippie kid for the your whole life right um I suppose you could but I knew they weren't gonna be because they're driven they're they like me they're driven and focused and there's things they want to do and I it's my job to give you the tools to do the job right do you uh do you regret stopping no not yet been a few months but you asked me you know why we decided like you know like that was that was that was half of the answer to the first question uh and the second half is just logistics uh it's taxes and duties and you know we sold the boat in in Fiji to a super cool dude from California big surfer dude and wanted to bring his family out and surf and do all that kind of stuff and um it was he I'm happy for him that's I hope he has a lot of fun with it and like we did and um but you know it's we sold it again we sold it in Fiji because uh it's duty free you know we wanted to sail the boat to New Zealand and but you know New Zealand wanted a whole bunch of tax money up front to even list the boat and we didn't want to do that same with Australia and you also had this you know you're in the southern hemisphere so hurricane or cyclone seasons are opposite to North America as well as school seasons right so those things don't match up back to America so you had a choice to leave now with lots of time or go to New Zealand for New Zealand summer and then come back you know to Fiji for the winter which would be America summer and then you're trying to sell and then you're kind of squeezed more for time for getting them back into plugging the kids back into the system of things and um you know it was it was great. I'm super happy we did it I wouldn't take it back um for a second um and I I don't I think there's very few families out there that would tell you man I really wish we wouldn't have done that I would I I think a story like that would would be I think there'd be a lot more to the story than um I you know I think my kids were worse off after I took them sailing around the world for for four years. I would be I would be very surprised to hear a story like that. I'm sure it's out there but I'd be shocked.

Host 3:51:43

I know you and I have talked about uh we were talking yesterday about you possibly going into the teaching field or uh as far as you know sailing and and and maybe you know starting to create some way to to teach people about I mean God you've learned so much dude just about that that life and and um I hope I hope that's something you pursue because I I'm sure there's somebody listening to this as you've either inspired them or they were thinking about it and you're pushing them in that direction. So we'll make sure that yeah people can find your channel.

Eric Shelvy 3:52:14

Yeah and teaching and and guidance it's something I've always enjoyed you know and I get really passionate about teaching things I know a lot about um and I I you know like anything it's really enjoyable to teach people that want to learn you know it's boring to teach people that don't care what you're teaching them but to teach people that really want to know what you have to say and you know appreciate it you know I'm I'm always and I think this is just kind of me like I'm always I'm always willing to help people that need help. You know wanting help and needing help are not the same thing. You know you want help um sometimes they line up but most of the time they don't you know some people really need it or need advice or guidance or help or we all do at some point and some people don't ask for it and they need it. And those are the people that um you know I'd always be willing much like you know but if like I don't want to do this can you do it for me?

Host 3:53:13

That's a different yeah no it's a whole different thing that's a different thing. But yeah I'm getting used to you know now the kids are back at school and it's like uh you know my son is you know probably tripled in size since we started sailing and being sprouted just in the last year and a half um I I wish he was as big and strong uh then as he is now because now he's actually really helpful right you know little kids aren't super helpful but big kids are and you know they can he can manage that boat all by himself you know now Logan's extremely smart as we close out um you know start down the final path to close this interview out it's long there's so much here man I mean this is one of the few podcasts all my podcasts I've learned from every single person that sat in that chair but time has really passed the quickest uh there's just so much you've you and I have known each other for so long too and uh just being a part of your journey for for certain parts of it it's it's it's been a very unique uh interview uh but now we're gonna you know just kind of get to the end and I I just have some you know life meaning questions um um for you and you know one of those is you know as you look back in and why you joined the Marine Corps one of the things you told me is you know in order to be the best you have to join the best and that's truly what you believed I'm sure then and even now I I know you're have a very strong affinity for the Marine Corps it's very a part of uh who you are and it's that's cool especially with you know what you went through what you sacrificed I know Fallujah you and I have talked about it was a very defining moment in your life um it's still kind of a foundation good and bad for some of the things that you've done uh do you think you found what you were looking for in the Marine Corps?

Eric Shelvy 3:54:48

Yeah absolutely yeah I think the Marine Corps um I think the Marine Corps did did me right you know I I I took a lot out of it I I learned a lot I I think it it made me a man you know and um no I I you know I I I got an education out of it I got go around the world you know it was obviously a lot of bad things but man I think the good you know outweighs the bad and uh you know I have no no hard feelings I was as an organization I was proud to be a part of still am yeah no very much so I I hate to be like the hutt hut you know marine and the and the hat and all that but yeah I mean it it does uh it does define you you know and my wife my wife's still very aware of it when you know all my hangers have to be hanging the same way in the closet like that it's real easy to find your house in your street all you gotta do is look for that big old Marine Corps flag dude man. What did Fallujah cost you I guess I mean I it cost you a little bit of your of your soul I guess. What do you think it gave you? I gave well I kind of alluded to it I guess in the last little diatribe I was on there but you know it it makes you aware of you know how quickly it can all be taken away you know and to maximize anything and any opportunity that presents itself because uh it can disappear in a heartbeat. You know then now later after the fact um you know just the fallout of all the guys over the years uh it's it's shocking. You know and it's easy to be like you know it's easy to sit here and be like well I don't understand why this is all happening but it's like I could I could I can see how you could get there. You know and I I think I came to the realization that I wasn't totally immune of it all. Um but then to make a an active decision not a passive decision but an active decision that I'm gonna actively do shit to avoid that. You know and I'm not gonna sit around here and uh sulk and that might not be the right word but uh because you certainly don't um you know forget about it but I I I try to actively like not drown myself in it because I don't think it does me any good. I don't think it does anyone else any good. Um but I could I could also see how you know the chemical override in your brain and I think it is I I don't think um it's an as much an emotional thing. I think it's like a legitimate chemical reaction that happens in your mind um that causes that you know um I saw the big the signs of it the beginnings of it and um you know it's when things start happening that you can't explain or why are these you know why am I upset about this? And it's like and your like conscious mind is like what is happening and your subconscious mind is like in direct conflict with your your active mind. You know there's there's clearly this is not you know um at least what I experienced you know what I started to experience like um I'm not a scientist or a doctor but there there's clearly there's clearly something freaking broken in the machine. Yeah and you know our our minds are machines like any other machine and there's a lot of moving parts and one of them goes haywires and the whole freaking thing goes to shit right um so I mean I just to try and do things to actively I mean I try and do things to actively suppress that maybe or avoid it you know uh you could call it avoidance you know which you accuse me of on more than one occasion uh you just bought a sailboat to just sail away from your problems I'm like no dude my problems are in the bilge like they they they can't they came with me I just got different problems I got different problems I got I got I got bilge problems and I got diesel all over my hands and that's so you know you can't run away from them you can just take them with you you know you just you know for me I just made it an an active decision that um I was not gonna let it destroy me and I would do uh you know whatever I possibly could to make that not happen. You know it's like uh you know it's kind of one of these like questions it's like if I told you you were gonna be dead tomorrow morning or you give me a million dollars would you give me a million dollars to live to not die tomorrow morning like uh yeah anyone that had the ability to do that would or a hundred dollars whatever it may be right so there's like this cost and value equation you know that I kind of have come up with like what what do things cost and what is their value and those are not the same thing you know so what are you gonna do about it you know this may cost this but uh you know you you know if you had to go get mental health help right okay it's gonna cost you this it's gonna be time this and aggravation this and and pride you know that's a cost but the value is you're you live yeah you know so what's the equation there the next question you know I struggled with whether or not I was gonna ask you um but I think it's important to bring it up because there's a lot of 9-11 vets that kind of struggle um with all the years that we went to war and and whether or not it mattered. So I mean the Iraq war WMDs that didn't exist no I don't know if they ever proved any connection to 9-11 um you know on and on looking back how do you feel about the reasons we went or does it even matter I would for me it doesn't matter yeah I mean I I could see how it could for some yeah um I feel like we you know you take like fluja for example um you know and just focus on that particular battle not the totality of you know OIF but that like yeah we took uh we took some losses and they were terrible but on the flip side um we fuck shit up for lack of a better way uh you know we got to respond in true marine fashion and the command was all about that and I I think that um you know we didn't get shot in the back on the way out we got punched in the face on the way in and then we killed everyone so I can see how maybe if I was in a situation where I did get you know we collectively our unit or whatever maybe got shot in the back on the way out and never got to justify that um I could definitely see how something like that would really have a totally different effect on someone like me. I think in that particular instance I f I didn't I feel like the the bigger picture didn't matter because in it's this was a um you know this was a a courtyard brawl and they got a couple and we got all of them all of them.

Host 4:02:39

Yeah you know the only the thing I think about too man is you guys fought some real like insurgents like bad dudes. And I often wonder right like we haven't had another 9-11 style attack. I often wonder you know if we hadn't have done what we'd done in Iraq right and we can argue that politics that could be seven more podcasts. Right. But if we hadn't killed some of those evil people I wonder if we would have faced them here. Or you know if we us fighting over there in Iraq and Afghanistan I mean we haven't had another attack since then. So you know I I don't know I I often think about that as I contemplate my own service and you know watching Mosul fall after you know I spent a lot of time there watching Afghanistan fall after I spent time there. Um but I mean that's that's how it goes right like yeah I think for those of us that joined we didn't get a say in the politics man.

Eric Shelvy 4:03:36

We no and I like I said I I think I can very easily understand how you could get there. Sure.

Host 4:03:45

Like I think I could get there very easily if I wanted to I just choose not to there's all the reasons there's all the reasons to be like furious and and all this right and uh but it goes back to your point that you talked about you get a choice right like you could wake up every day pissed off I tell this to my son sometimes my son will just wake up in a bad mood I'm like bro you get a choice you don't have to be a jerk like you you've made a decision to come out and be in a bad mood that's a decision you made it's just like being angry every day or you you can be an angry pissed off you know veteran you get a choice dude that's a choice you're making yeah you want to be a miserable dick and be by yourself dude that's a choice and you can do that too you know and some of it's just uh some of it you can quickly fix you know but and I think but I also knowing as many guys like this as I do I think you know sometimes the machine is broken and when you're when your machine is broken you got to take it to a mechanic like some shit you just can't fix yourself man like that's just the reality of it. Yeah

Eric Shelvy 4:04:41

If the check engine lights on, man, like I don't know how to I don't how to do all that, right? I'm not a mechanic. But when your car's broken, you you take it to a mechanic. When your mind's broken, you take it to the doctor and you say fix it.

Host 4:04:51

And we live in this time too where there's science is, you know, it has evolved, medicine has evolved. They're finding, you know, look, man, we've talked a lot on this channel about psychedelics. And that's just one particular tool, right? There's other tools. There's counseling, there's therapies, there's magnetic things for your brain if you're suffering for TBI, hyperbaric oxygen, vitamins, supplements, eating right, working out, cold plunge therapy, the on and on and on and on. So it is hard for me. I struggle when people tell me, like, oh, you know, it's really bad. Got it, man. I have bad days too. Like, what are you doing? Have you done anything? Are you just sitting there drinking all day and screaming at your wife and kids? Like, I've done that too. That's it's not gonna help, man. You know what I mean? Like, no, put one and I love helping people, man. And I love people you you just alluded to it too, man. I love people that really need help. What I've found in the veteran community, there's a lot of people who just want to talk about their problems, they don't really want to fix them, man. They're just dead set on bitching about them or whatever. And that's kind of where I've learned to draw the line personally because it also goes back to something else to talk about. We don't have so much time, right? I I as I'm getting older and busier, and I don't have that much time. And you know, I I gotta take my time away to help somebody else, which I don't mind doing for people that need it, right? Uh, and actually truly want it. Um, so you know, be a part of your own, be a part of your own solution, man.

Eric Shelvy 4:06:06

Yeah, that's those that's a good way to put it. You know, I I completely agree with that. That you know, uh one of the kind of I call it a gift that I've been given is this opportunity to just live a different life. And but I I I've told people like what the real gift is, is I don't have to be around anyone I don't want to be. And not everyone can do that. I mean, when I was working all those years, like, man, you're dealing with bosses you don't like and co-workers you don't like and doing shit you don't want to do. And um now I'm in a position, um, you know, at a relatively young age. I think, you know, if if I think people that are much older realize that, you know, because they lived a long careers and had long careers and and stuff like that. But you know, I just kind of like had this like total realization, like, um, you know, if you're a negative person, like I don't want to be around you because I don't I don't have to be, because your negative shit makes me negative. Unsubscribe, dude. Yeah, yeah, it does. Like, I your negative, it's like a virus, you know, like positive people make other people positive. I preach this to the kids all the time. Like, be the kid that other people want to be around, be the kid that those parents want that your their kid to be around you because you're gonna be better for being them or around them. And I, as an even as an adult, like I want to talk to people um that like teach me things or explain things or or uh have stories that are different than mine that like wow, that's that's really cool, man. Like I didn't know anything about that. That's interesting. Like, I want to be around people that can enrich my own existence, not people that bring me down because it it I I'm hyper aware of that it like it brings me down. Like you you notice it, you know what I mean? And then it goes downhill, you know. It's like, well, you're gonna make me in a bad mood, and then I'm gonna make my wife in a bad mood, and then I'm gonna take it out on one of these kids because they're driving me crazy. And you know, it's negativity uh flows freely, man. Like it's it's downhill run. Um, and trying to be positive all the time, you know, it's easy to sit up here at this chair and be like, well, just be positive, don't be negative. But yeah, of course, that's not the reality of it. You know, it's a constant battle to stay positive and do things that are positive and be around people that are positive because it's so easy to just be like, this guy cut you off, and you're just like, you know, f this mother, like it you just your mind just instantly goes to like black, right? And it's like, do I really like who knows what's going on with this dude? Maybe he is just a big dick, or maybe he's in a rush somewhere. Maybe his mom just died of cancer. Maybe, maybe not, but you know, it's like he's negative, and his actions have now caused me to be, you know, in a bad mood or negative. So it's it's an active, it's a constant active thing to try and not let that shit affect you. And it's you know, it's like a two-step forward, one step back kind of thing. Yeah, you know, and you just kind of keep chipping away at it, you know, and that that's like all that kind of stoic stuff and you know, and mindset, and you know, when you get enough time in life to to to really contemplate all that stuff and like what it all means and what's the point and what's the purpose and why are we here and all that, like really, really think. You know, you know, and in in in modern life now, like how much time have you ever like truly just sat there for like 24 hours straight with like no phones, no computers, no commutes, like no nothing? I mean you will on a boat, right? And I get it, no, not everyone can can do that or wants to do that. Um, but you know, I would encourage people to find the time to just you know find your kids and just freaking stare at each other for like an hour if you have to, and you're gonna miss it when it's gone, dude. Yeah, because you can't get it back.

Host 4:10:04

No, bro. I I've learned the hard way myself.

Eric Shelvy 4:10:07

So I consider myself very fortunate for coming to that realization now before it's too late.

Host 4:10:15

What do you want people to really know about India Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines?

Eric Shelvy 4:10:21

Well, there's a lot out there. Um you know, a lot of media stuff out there, but you know, my perspective, uh the guys I knew and what really happened on the ground, um and these guys are the best of the best. I mean when I used to have a there was a master gunnery sergeant when I was in Quantico and I sat next to this guy, um, and I was kind of his assistant, you know, and when Marines would come to when they were getting discharged, you know, out of the Marine Corps, he was one of the people that you had to check out with. You had to get a sign-off thing. He was one of the guys. So all these Marines would come through all the time, and he was an infantry, you know, crazy master guarding sergeant, right? The the the salty curmudgeon, right? Like that's the guy you just stayed away from because he was just gonna chew your head off for no for whatever. But he was also very wise in some of the shit he said. You know, for every like 10 crazy things he said, he would say something that was like really profound. And um he he said something one time, and I remember it very well because I can still recite it. And some Marine came in there and was like, and he always asked him, like, what are you gonna do? You know, uh, what are your plans? He'd always ask the Marines that, What are your plans? They'd be like, Well, I'm gonna go to college or I'm gonna go be a poly. I'd be like, Okay, good story. You're gonna go be a doctor, Roger that, sign here. And one kid came in, let's say one kid, one Marine came in, he goes, 'Yeah, Master Guns, I'm just gonna be unemployed for a while to collect unemployment.' And I was like, Uh-oh. Frag out, frag out, exactly. Yeah, and he just tore this freaking marine to nothingness right there in front of us. But I was like, that was a stupid thing to say, but I probably believed it, right? He was just pissed off, and you know, whatever. But then we he after this Marine left, and and Master Guns was like, he was he was really worked up then, and right, you know, this was one of the profound things that came out, and he goes, You know, he's like, when you go in the army or you go in the navy and you learn a skill and you work on radar and then you drive tanks and vehicles and fly things and do these things, you that's what that's what you give back to the world. When you get out, you go back to the world and you fix planes and you become a plumber and you you know all these different jobs, signals and and mechanics, radars, all these different things that the military can teach you skill set-wise. And but in the marine corps, you know what we give, he goes, Shelby, you know what we give back? You know, Shelby, well, you know what you know what the Marine Corps gives back to the to the to the to America?

Host 4:12:51

I was like, No, I don't, you know, and he's like, they give the Marine the mindset. And I was like, okay, Master Guns, you know, I don't know what, whatever.

Eric Shelvy 4:13:04

But years later, you know, I thought about that and I was like, man, there really is some something behind that statement, right? You know, and you said it, you know, you we were talking earlier, and you know, like, you know, I I I know a lot of Marines and like Army Rangers, like these these two guys, these two groups of guys, Marines and Rangers, like, if they say they're gonna do something, they do it.

Host 4:13:26

No questions asked. If they say they're gonna be there, they'll be there. Without a doubt.

Eric Shelvy 4:13:32

And you know, as I got older, I kind of realized that you know, what the Marine Corps does give back to the world is this mentality of integrity and honesty and trustworthiness, right? It's like if you meet me and you're like, Oh, you're a Marine? Yeah, I was a Marine. They're like, okay. That's where like the questioning ends. There's no more discussion that needs to happen to find out what you're about because I already know. You know, um, I think that's true in all branches, but I think it's especially true of the Marine Corps. And when you take an organization that big and then you bring it down to um India Company, right? A hundred guys in a place like Fallujah at that particular time, doing that particular mission, um, it is the best, it's the best that you can get. I mean, really, you you ask the questions, why, what's the point, 9-11, you know, weapons, all this kind of stuff. It's like, uh, you know, I just watched 12 bad guys with automatic weapons go in that house. You want to go in there and get them? And they're like, Yeah, okay. Are you going? And you're like, Yeah, I'm going. They're like, okay, well then I guess I'm going. And you both are hot like you're both very aware that this is like 50-50, that we're all gonna even survive this, but we're gonna go in there with a bunch of grenades anyway and sort it all out.

Host 4:14:56

And that's uh a quality that you have amongst those guys, you know, India Company, um that is rare.

Eric Shelvy 4:15:08

I wouldn't say you wouldn't find it anywhere, but it's rare, you know, and I think all even for all the bad things that happen, um, you know, I personally try and live my life to represent that even now, you know, because I don't I don't personally want to be the fat slob to like, oh, you were a Marine? You know, it's like, well, what happened? You know, you got like real hungry when you got out, like, you know, I just I still hold myself, even though I'm like not physically able to run, you know, three miles in 12 minutes anymore, but um I still try and live by that mantra. Like, I still have to live up to uh those marines, the Marines now, the Marines of of Vietnam, the of World War II, um to go all the way back to Tripoli. I mean, um I I feel like it's an organization that I I feel very proud to be a part of, and I feel like it continually holds me to a standard that I have to um maintain. You know, whether that's mentally, uh you know, you know, I I whatever that means in in so many different ways, you know, it can go in any different direction, but I feel like it's a legacy that I have to represent well. I personally feel that. Some guys may not, but I it it sounds corny, but I still feel like I have to represent them. Dead, alive, yesteryear, yesterday, it doesn't matter. Like I still feel that.

Host 4:16:42

I just got two, three more questions. What uh is there anything you want to say to your your kids, Alina and Logan? I'll tell them when I get home.

Eric Shelvy 4:16:53

They're probably tired of listening, they're like, Wow, this is only eight hours. That's not that bad. You know, it's like I listen to this guy going his diet tribes every day. That's probably true. They're pretty used to it.

Host 4:17:03

This might be your only podcast interview. That's something you and I were talking about. About your time as a Marine, your only chance to tell this story in long form. Your mom wrote a book from her perspective. Documentaries have been made about India Company, but this is your story in your words. What's the one thing that you want to leave people with from this podcast? Wow, that's a big question.

Eric Shelvy 4:17:27

Um I guess I mean I think a lot of reason I came to do this was because of you. You know, you convinced me that it could help people, whether it does or not, I don't know. Um, does it help my ego? No. Um because I I honestly I just would rather just be left alone personally. But I'm here, you got me here. Um, so let's talk it, talk about it. Um what's the the one thing that um I don't know, I I I guess to I mean I I think for many years, especially during my career, I kind of felt I wouldn't say I felt alone, um, because you're always surrounded by people, but I felt like guys like me were like I was rare. I became h aware of that. Like I knew that my experiences were rare, that my uh career success thereafter was rare. Um to just dump it all and go sailing was even more rare.

Host 4:18:35

Um I'm aware of that.

Eric Shelvy 4:18:39

Um but I I feel like there's probably, and I don't know, I suspect, that there are more out there like me than I'm probably uh know about, you know?

Host 4:18:53

I don't bump into guys like me very often.

Eric Shelvy 4:18:56

Not like the way I think or the my actions, but it's just very rare. It's very rare uh to bump you you bump into military guys all the time, right? Um you know, Navy guys, submarine guys, army from all over all branches, all generations. But it's very I it's very rare for me to like bump into a dude that was like, yeah, I was uh 2-6 in 04 or 5. That's I don't that doesn't happen to me very often. It's happening like maybe once or twice in 20 years.

Host 4:19:28

Um but I think I think they're out there. Oh they're out there. Yeah.

Eric Shelvy 4:19:34

I'm sure they are, they have to be like um and they probably don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it either. Um you know you you were telling me before we did this thing, like, oh it'll it may help you to like talk about all this shit.

Host 4:19:48

Like probably not. Maybe maybe not. Um like I said, it's not for me. I don't need anything. Uh I don't want anything.

Eric Shelvy 4:20:00

I'm pretty content with the way things are. Um, but some guys aren't. You know, and I I I know that. I know why. I know why they think the way they do. Um you know, it's in you when you're in law enforcement, you know, and you're dealing with violent criminals, you know, and they do a really violent thing, you know, there's usually when you really, you know, get these guys down into a room and you talk to them about their violent crime or whatever, you know, there's usually a a series of events that led up to this thing, right? It's not like I just went apeshit one day and freaking, you know, committed this horrible act. There's usually something that led up to it. There's usually a logical sequence of events that led to this point, and I think it's very similar for veterans, right? You don't just go ape shit one day and you're like, today's the day, I'm just gonna down this bottle and I'm gonna go out and fight the police on the front yard. Like there's a lot that leads up to that, you know. And I guess if uh you know, if I could like one piece of advice that I found helpful to me, you know, maybe it's not helpful to others, who knows? Um, but like the when you start to be when you become aware that something's like the machine's broken, you gotta go to you gotta go to a mechanic. You have no choice, man. You can't fix it. Like this, it's not like I can power through it, which we've all done our whole lives, right? Power through anything and everything. Like, you can't kill me. That's the mentality. Um, but when the machine breaks, you just you have to get the pros to fix it. Otherwise, it's it's gonna kill you. You know, and that's what I think I think that's what you're trying to do here with this whole thing, man. Like prevent that. If I mean if it helps, you know, if people wanna people got a lot of shit to say about what I'm saying for the last few hours, you know, if it's if it's if one if one person doesn't off themselves because of something that we did here, then that's a win. Amen, bro. Yeah, you know, amen. If it's a hundred to one, we'll take the one.

Host 4:22:01

Yeah, every time.

Eric Shelvy 4:22:02

Uh yeah, all day, every day. So um I don't have all the answers, man. Like, I'm dealing with the shit just like everyone else. I'm not a freaking doctor. I don't know. Yeah, I'm sure telling uh answering answering questions and talking about my experiences, but you know, if it can, if it does, uh that's good. That's a good thing.

Host 4:22:22

Well, dude, this was uh this was probably one of our longer interviews, but man, uh time flew. I hope for the listeners that are listening to this. I hope time flew for you. I hope you got to understand um the world from somebody who's seen a lot. I uh I'm very specific about who we bring on this podcast. I mean, you were one of the first guys I asked way before our I even when this thing was a thought in my head. Um, and I know what it took for you to get here, like other than just m me convincing, it was a lot of thought. It was, you know, a long time. And I really appreciate it, man, because I know, like I've seen, you know, it's not what I'm doing on this channel, it's what the movement that we're trying to create to help people. And there's a reason why I don't talk about politics and and all the bullshit that we have going on in the world, because there's enough negativity out there, dude. Yeah, tons. And I'm not here to contribute to that. I'm here to you know try to leave the world just a little bit better than the way we found it, dude, which is all we can do, right? Um, but I just wanted to thank you, dude. I I know uh I know I made you visit places that you don't like to spend a lot of time with in your head for obvious reasons. We didn't go into you know a tenth of what happened to you by design, right? Because I think at some point it becomes you know unhelpful. But uh thank you, man. Thank you for being bold, thank you for being willing to to tell your story. And you are a private person, so for you to lay your soul out here because I asked you to, um, it means a lot to me personally. And it speaks to our friendship. Yeah. Because if you guys haven't figured out, we're we're I mean, we're we're close friends. So to everybody out here that listened to this, man, um, thank you for tuning in. We I don't have a podcast without you. If nobody listened to this, uh, there'd be no reason in doing it. Um, and the response that we've had and the short amount of time we've been doing this has been overwhelming. Eric was our first Marine. I couldn't ask for a a better a better Marine uh to come on here and tell his his stories in the GWAT. So uh if this if this story helped you, man, share it with somebody else that you think might help. That's how that's how this thing gets spread around. I don't do advertisement, we don't do any of that stuff. Um, we did start a Patreon uh recently. Uh we started putting some stuff on there. It's a way to try to generate money. This podcast takes money to edit, and you know, we we pay people to fly out here and stuff. So if you you want to support the show, there's not a ton of content on there yet. We're slowly starting to add. Feel free to to go in there, uh, unsubscribe. We're selling merch. Um, we don't make a ton off the merch either. We use all that to put back into the show. So if you want to support us, that's another way you can do it. Um, but yeah, we'll uh we'll put Eric's links to his YouTube channel on there. If you guys got questions about uh saline or something like that, man, it's a good place to start, watch his videos. Um and yeah, man, I hope you guys uh stay safe out there. And if you can't be safe, be violent out of here.