Host 1:09

Welcome, Nick. We've been talking about doing this for a while, dude. Uh we I had to cancel. Um you've been busy, I was busy. Uh so I'm I'm glad I'm glad we finally finally doing this.

Nick Barringer 1:20

Yes, especially the fact that you're just right up the road in Texas. It makes it awesome. Easy drive.

Host 1:25

Yeah, we uh we started off our day with uh with a crushing leg workout. Um we're gonna talk about your your your gum that that you just came out with that I'm chewing right now that's got me dialed in, man, and I'm excited. So uh so welcome to the podcast. Um for those out out here listening, uh we have Dr. Nick Berenger on the podcast. Um well I'm getting ready to go into his introduction, but Nick's uh, you know, dietitian, human performance. Um, you know, I call you a biohacker. I don't know if that's the right term, but you know, just really in that space, you know, fine-tuning health and performance along with, you know, what we put in our body. So this will be a little bit different from what we're we're you know, what we've been doing, but it's great. I mean, you still have a background in the military. You actually started a program in the Ranger Regiment. So uh this is a conversation I'm super excited to have. So without further ado, let's uh let me give you a proper introduction. What if the most advanced human performance lab in the world wasn't in the Silicon Valley? It was on the battlefield. Today's guest didn't optimize elite athletes in a climate-controlled facility. He did it downranged with the Rangers and Special Operations Forces and some of the most physically and mentally tested human beings on the planet. Dr. Nick Berenger is a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel, a bronze star and Legion of Merit recipient, Ranger tabbed, airborne qualified combat veteran, and one of the country's foremost experts and tactical performance nutrition. He holds a PhD in kinesiology from Texas AM and a master's in exercise science, a degree in dietetics. Dietetics. Dietetics, yeah, and carries certifications most people in this space only dream about. Registered dietitian, certified strength and conditioning specialists, specialists in sports dietetics, and performance enhancement specialists. He's not just credentialed, he's battlefield tested. Nick spent years embedded with the 75th Ranger Regiment as part of the Ranger Athlete Warrior Program, one of the first human performance programs in all special operations. He went on to serve as program directorate for the Army Baylor Graduate Program in Nutrition and as an assistant professor at West Point, literally shaping the next generation of military dietitians and performance specialists. His published research covers omega-3s and traumatic traumatic brain injury protection, vitamin D's linked to depression and performance, creatine's effects on cognition and sleep deprivation, which I'm super excited to talk about, and nootropic supplements' impact on marksmanship and active duty soldiers. He co-authored the International Society of Sports Nutrition's Position, Stand on Tactical Athlete Nutrition, essentially the gold standard playbook for fueling high performers, and has presented at SOCOM's Performance Nutrition Summit. But here's what separates Nick from every other expert in this space. He didn't just study performance, he built something from it. After two deck decades of watching caffeine getting dosed wrong, delivered too slowly, and wreck operators at the worst possible moment, he created Salvo Gum, a precision performance gum engineered for controlled alertness, rapid delivery, and composure under pressure. Not a bigger hit, better command of the one you take. That's the thread running through everything Nick does. Not more, but better, smarter, and more dialed in. Whether you're a serious athlete, a biohacker optimizing your edge, or a leader who needs clarity on demand, this conversation will change how you think about fueling your performance. Dr. Nick Baringer, let's dive in.

Nick Barringer 4:46

Ah man, that was awesome.

Host 4:47

And I'm telling you, man, I'm chewing this gum and I only had one piece. And uh man, I just feel like, you know, I don't feel jittery. I don't have the shakes, but like my brain, it's uh, you know, it's firing. And I'm always trying like new things, especially to kind of stay alert on the podcast. So I'm I'm digging this. And actually the flavor's pretty good too. So well done. Um, can you can you start about telling us a little bit about you know where you grew up, what your childhood was like, what you're into as a kid, all that kind of stuff?

Nick Barringer 5:12

Yeah. So um, you know, I was I was born in East Tennessee. I'll let that out there. I usually don't talk about that, but uh, you know, but but I grew up in Georgia, basically, uh, you know, fifth, sixth grade up, all the way in a town Rome, Georgia, Northwest Georgia, um, which which dearly loved that area. And just, you know, into athletics, into going outside, into playing, very, very physically active. Um, I was never what you would call an athlete. And because of that, I wanted to be an athlete. Uh, I had to like look for advantages and any advantage. So early on, I got into nutrition, um, I got into strength conditioning when I was in high school. That was just kind of, and so that was that was what I saw as like the hack that closed the gap with people who are better athletes than I was.

Host 6:02

Yeah, awesome, dude. Um were were you into sports in high school? Did you play sports? Was that yeah, yep.

Nick Barringer 6:08

So I I I mean, I I started, you know, middle school level wrestling and football. So I did wrestling and football, which you know, Georgia, it's it's like Texas. It, you know, football is a religion. Oh yeah, man. And it's you know, it's year-round. You know, you got summer, you got, you know, it starts in the spring and it doesn't end to the fall. And then as soon as the fall would end, I would go right into wrestling season. And then it was, you know, training back for football. Um, but I was I was really lucky uh in that the high school I went to, they had hired a guy named Scott Hines, who was a strength coach from Clemson. So we had a collegiate level, like somebody with collegiate level experience as our strength coach in high school. So learning power clean technique as a freshman, you know, all the things, you know, now Olympic level lifting and all it's it's common, but back then it wasn't. And so to get that at such a young age was was a huge kind of advantage and really shaped me.

Host 7:00

I know it's not something that most high school kids deal with, but were you a little more aware of like um nutrition and and recovery at that age? Because I'm sure it was a big football school.

Nick Barringer 7:09

I I wasn't, and what got me, but you know what sport got me into nutrition was wrestling. Oh yeah, man.

Host 7:15

Well, you know, is you were talking about jujitsu this morning.

Nick Barringer 7:17

Yeah, wait, you know, a weight class sport. So I needed to maintain this certain weight. Uh so I got like a little nutrition handout, and it was like I just followed it. It eat this, okay. I was very militant about my nutrition. And then of course I was going to GNC during football season to do the opposite to try to get bigger. Um, and having, you know, Scott Hines, he really became like a mentor and father figure uh for me, and he, you know, taught me everything he knew in terms of uh strength and conditioning, nutrition. He got me involved with the National Strength and Conditioning Association. Again, when I was in high school, which was rare, usually, you know, people in college and things like that would get into those organizations. But I was reading their journal articles, you know, when I'm a junior. Um, so so that that's really what kind of just set me down this road. Power lifting, what what kind of uh lifting were you guys doing? We we we did a combination of uh whenever we would compete, it wasn't a typical like powerlifting meet. It would be bench, squat, power clean. So they wanted an athletic instead of the deadlift. Uh it was it was switched out with power clean.

Host 8:23

Did you see um a correlation like at a younger age of you know having that? I mean, you obviously recognize it now, right? A stall, a top-level strength and conditioning coach in high school. Were you seeing that pay off when you played sports?

Nick Barringer 8:36

Oh, yes. Yes, uh, because um, again, I was, you know, not the most athletic. And I'm not a you know, I'm not a big guy either, but he got me like, you know, strength is an advantage, right? And then, you know, when puberty hits and you really start gaining some strength, and I started feeling that on the football field, I started feeling that, especially like wrestling, when I would grab a competitor and I'm like, oh, I can just overpower this guy. Um, that that really you know turned me on to like, this is this is awesome. Like, this is a this is a superpower. If you work really hard in the weight room, it's gonna pay off in these, you know, other areas.

Host 9:15

Yeah, and I asked that because I've got a kid playing football and there's a lot of dads out there, so you know, just just just trying to set that spark. University of Georgia, go dogs, huh? Go dogs. You started out wanting to be a strength coach, uh, obviously, because I'm sure that strength coach impacted you, but what did you what what would you say was your change or shift uh in your trajectory?

Nick Barringer 9:34

So I was I was working in the weight room. Uh it was a great experience. And I will say this, like to date myself, we had two um, they were uh what are they called? Uh GA's grad assistants at the time working there who would come through the weight room. And you know, two guys, Mike Bobo and Kirby Smart. They had just graduated and were the grad assistants in there, and and Eric Fears, he was a strength coach. And it was a great experience to kind of see uh human performance at that level. And then also it made me appreciate like division one athletes are mutants. They're they're just another the things they do. A 300-pound man being able to jump 30 inches and run a sub-540 is is it's mind-blowing to see firsthand. So that was cool, but it's a grind and it's it's long hours. Um, it and it's kind of a thankless job to get get to the top. And then, you know, I kind of had that going on. I had a military background, my father served, my brother served, and then 9-11 happened, and it just it ROTC seemed like the better fit. Like it just, you know, I kind of got disillusioned with football and and work in in that environment. So um the military was where I was gonna go.

Host 10:44

Uh, you brought it up. Um what do you remember? Where were you on 9-11? I think I asked this for everybody.

Nick Barringer 10:50

Yeah, I was I was I was in, I do remember. Um and now I'm trying to think of the the specific. It wasn't Snelling, it wasn't Oglethorpe for any Georgia people, but I was it's one of the dining uh halls, like at Georgia, and I'm sitting there eating, and the news comes on, and the first you know, plane had hit, and it was kind of smoking, and nobody really knew what was going on. You're like watching it, and I remember like as I'm eating, the second plane hit, and it was just nobody knew what was what was going on. Um, and I was in ROTC at the time. I remember I had to go take a test, and then we had to go to the ROTC, you know, building for some reason. And um this will be kind of some maybe some foreshadowing for later on. They wanted us to take our our our uniforms off because we were wearing, because on Thursday's lab day, um, and I remember they like they're like, hey, don't wear the uniforms because they you know, nobody knew what was going on at the time. And uh I didn't think anything about it, but I remember one of the instructors was a Panama veteran from Third Ranger Battalion, and he and he was pissed. He's like, No, we're gonna keep these uniforms on, and we're gonna, you know, he was like, you could just tell like he was ready for a fight. And I I I was like, I want to be like that guy when I grow up. But uh yeah, so so that was that was where I was, and it was, you know, again, I I think for everybody who was around during that time, I mean, it it was it cemented our a lot of us cemented our future, right? Right.

Host 12:13

Um, R O T C what how did you get involved in that? How did that come on your radar?

Nick Barringer 12:18

Um I I had considered it. Um, I had a a good buddy um uh who later became my roommate, EJ, who was doing ROTC and uh, you know, I kind of kept up with it through him. And so I I just yeah, I would like to say there was this epiphany or anything, but it's like ah, let me go, let me go do it. Um and so what was really cool about the Bulldog Battalion, I think it's grown s significantly since I left, but it was really small, so there was maybe like 30 total like ROTC students that you know for that size school. And because of that, it was a really close-knit group, and everybody was really cool and everybody was really supportive, and it it was like a family. And so that was just a really great fit. And then, you know, the the military kind of came naturally, especially like I feel like sports. If you play sports, football, you understand if somebody messes up, the whole team messes up, you know. All the all the basics, it will, it wasn't hard. It's like, all right, I just gotta exercise and do what I'm told and uh you know, works out.

Host 13:22

Yeah. Um, you had a professor, Amelia. I'm gonna butcher her last name, Papa Andrew.

Nick Barringer 13:28

Papa Constantinew. Man, that's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if she's still out there, but and she probably doesn't even know this unless she's ever heard of a podcast or somebody shared it with her. But I was at Georgia, I was like, I'm gonna do exercise science, right? Because I want to be a strength coach. Um, and and that's another thing anybody who's done exercise science might find and it hit this. Was I finding like what I was doing you know, learning in the weight room under the strength coaches there was pretty cutting edge. I mean, it's University of Georgia, like these guys are preparing guys for the NFL. Was totally different than what I was learning in my exercise science class. And I was looking at my exercise science professors and like they didn't look like they trained and they hadn't trained anybody, you know, and I was just like, I I don't, I don't know what I'm learning here. And and I had to take a uh nutrition course, like had to, right, as part of my major. And it was a night course. I wasn't really motivated to do it. And I go in and I think she was new. I don't know if she was a professor yet or a teaching assistant, but she was just dynamic and passionate and was just, you know, doing all these kind of things in the classroom that were at the time cutting edge. Like for instance, she handed us all remotes, and everybody listening to this, remember, this is this is like you know, 2000, to you know, 2001. We had remotes in our class. She would teach, and at the end, she would quiz us and we would answer it on the remotes, and it would throw up the percentage of who got it right, who got it wrong, and we'd go over it. And if a question had more than like 50% got it wrong, she'd be like, Oh, you guys aren't getting it. Let's go back over it and stuff like that. And that was like every class. Only professor ever did that. I don't know.

Host 15:05

That's pretty cool. I've never even heard of that.

Nick Barringer 15:07

Yeah, yeah. So that was that was her like thing. She was really like about that instant feedback to make sure you got the material. And if you didn't, you should go back over it.

Host 15:15

Why join the army? What made you choose military service over civilian nutrition work?

Nick Barringer 15:20

I couldn't get into the air force. No, I'm just kidding. I know bastards. Uh yeah, I wasn't I wasn't smart enough for the Air Force. No, the Army had, I found out the Army had dietitians, and so when I changed my major to dietetics, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna be a dietitian. Oh, I can do this in the army, and so it was just a natural fit. Um, I will say, again, part of ROTC at Georgia being so special, and I can't remember his name, our NCO, infantry guy. It was like Georgia ROTC was all infantry, like all infantry and special forces. Like, no, no dietitians, no medical, no. I told him what I wanted to do. And he's like, Oh, nutritionists. Yeah, I don't know if we have those in the army, but let me look. You know, I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure we do. And and so he looked into it and he got me a gig for the summer, like my rotation in Wurzburg, Germany, um, following a dietitian. So I to that guy, uh how he did that, I don't know.

Host 16:17

But uh what a good dude, bro. I yeah, that's that's that's pretty cool to be able to go.

Nick Barringer 16:22

That was my summer. Yeah, that was my junior summer. So uh her name's uh, you know, at the time it was it was Major Sarah Flash. She she's since retired, but it was great. It was it was such a great experience.

Host 16:31

What did you do over there? I'm really curious because I I think a lot of us, I mean, initially when I met you and we started talking about uh the dietitian stuff. I mean, obviously we'll get into your military career and that's kind of was the spark, but you know, I have this idea of dietitians, man. You know, they just work in the hospital food room and you know, there's overseeing making sure you get crappy food. That's kind of where my brain went. I know that's not.

Nick Barringer 16:50

That was, I mean, that was early on. That was kind of the model. I mean, dietitians were at the hospital. That that's where you found them. So over there in Verseburg, uh, I really got to do some cool stuff and did a lot of blood pressure classes, right? For hypertension, uh, for dyslipidemia, for cholesterol. Yeah. Did a lot of education for that for patients, different specialized diets, like going around the ward and teaching there. So they let me teach and put together presentations, uh, then also work in the dining facility. So dietitians, so everybody listening, so you understand, dietitians control the dining facility in the hospital. Outside of that is quartermaster. So yeah, so so all the dining facilities you know post aren't run by dietitians. That that falls under quartermaster. So those are usually warrant officers. Um, a lot of times the dietitian sits on a menu board for the menus that go throughout the post, but the one that they physically have control is the one in the hospital. So that's where we kind of learn. And why is that is because you know, you're doing specialized diet for uh a patient who maybe has a broken jaw to um a patient on dialysis, right? Or, you know, a cancer ward. Or, you know, I was I was lucky, I did my rotations at Brook Army Medical Center, the burn ward um there. So, so it's more um nutrition medical therapy.

Host 18:06

You and I were talking quite a bit at dinner last night about nutrition and like obviously how important it is and how important it's become, especially in the last, I don't know when the change was. I feel like in my mind it's like five to 10 years. I could be wrong, but that's kind of or maybe I just got older and I really had to, you know, start becoming aware of what I was eating. But at what point for you where you're finally like, you know, you're seeing how what you eat really impacts your body, especially in the hospital, when you're talking about recovery. Was there like an aha moment for you where you're like, oh man, I I really understand what this is all about?

Nick Barringer 18:36

I had always from just personal experience with my nutrition and dialing in, I was like, oh, this makes an impact. Like that this affects it. Um at the hospital level, certainly working with patients, it was it was great. I actually enjoyed, and and I I would have never guessed at my dialysis rotation because when you're on dialysis, it's so key, like even your electrolytes, your potassium, your things have to be dialed in. So there was that immediate feedback in the labs that you get. Where it got challenging and where it was it was easy to get dissolution, was like working with a cholesterol patient who's like, you know what, I'm not gonna worry about my diet because I'm just gonna up the meds. And we would have that. Or I even worked with at one point uh a weight loss patient who was like, I'm just gonna gain enough weight to get the threshold so I can get the lap ban. Um, so isn't that wild? Yeah, yeah. So so there are those those challenges. So so always seeing that direct connection is hard. I will say in the more kind of extreme cases, um, you you would you would see it, and that's where I got that feedback. But then working with athletes, and and that's my passion, when they're like, oh, I feel better, I recover better, I I you know, I'm I'm able, I'm not getting tired on the ruck.

Host 19:48

That's yeah, and I feel like working with athletes um or people that care about themselves or operating at least at a medium to high level, they have buy-in, right? And then so when you start uh because that's something I talk about with my own kids, they're pretty good athletes. So I told them, and but we live in a town full of good athletes, and so I'm always telling them that diet and you know, nutrition and recovery, those are the game changers, right? Because if you got two people that can sprint super fast or do whatever, and then you dial in kind of nutrition and recovery, that's that's the difference. And and man, I think we have really learned like you are what you eat, dude. It's been super impactful. I don't always eat, you know, super dialed in, but I I definitely can feel the difference. What was your kind of early army experience? So you graduate, um, you graduate college, and and where did you end up going?

Nick Barringer 20:30

I I went through, you know, my my officer basically was in San Antonio, which is awesome. What a great city. Um, but then you know, my first duty station, which I still think it was somebody's like sick joke. Um, I grew up in the south, never like went north of the Mason Dixon line, and they stationed me at Fort Drum, like right out of the gate. Um, so you know, I'm never drove in the snow or any like that. And I'm I'm in Watertown, New York. Oh, wow. In October, I get there, and it's like snow's already on the ground um with with 10th Mountain Division. And uh it was a learning experience. You know, it was it was it was good. Um were you initially signed to a hospital? No, so this is a little piece about to back up the confusion. Um you know, wanted to be a dietitian, had done the degree, had had worked, I had to work with a recruiter because it the dietitians are a medical specialist. So you have to go through like a different like assessment and selection kind of board separate from like typical ROTC, which will do med service. And I didn't get picked up or or so I thought, which we'll get to. So I got branched med service.

Host 21:38

Oh wow.

Nick Barringer 21:39

So I wasn't even gonna, I wasn't, I was a evacuation platoon leader, I had a bunch of ambulances, so I wasn't even doing the nutrition job. So I had kind of you know relegated myself, like, well, man, dietitian thing isn't gonna work out. I'll just have to figure something else out. And while I was at um Fort Drum, they have something called like a little silver caduce society, it's for med service to meet. A buddy of mine drugged me to it, and the person speaking was a dietitian, was a colonel. And he's like, drags me up there, is like, hey, ma'am, you know, my buddy wanted to be a dietitian. She starts talking to me, and I was kind of like halfway into it, you know, because I was like, I didn't get picked up, whatever. And she just asked me my GPA, she started asking all these questions, and I gave her the answer. And then she looked kind of, you know, kind of confused, and she's like, I want you to, you know, wrote down her name and gave me contact information. She's like, I want you to reach out to me on Monday. And so I reached out to her and like she had her person look into it, and they had messed up on my packet. I should have got selected. Which again, like, what a what how fortuitous. So they got me, they corrected it and got me in the next class. And so then I went from Fort Drum to Bamsey. So I was only at drum a year.

Host 22:45

So what'd you tell the med service guys, man? Like, good luck with the ambulances.

Nick Barringer 22:49

Well, well, so that what was so wild is I mean, again, this was global war on terror. So you were kind of locked in. And I had a buddy who got accepted to med school, a med, another med service buddy. And they wouldn't let him go. Like he was there. And so he saw them letting me go. So I remember I was on staff duty one time and he came in and he's like, Who the beep do you know? You know, da-da-da. How do you and I was like, Man, they messed up on my paperwork. That's the only reason they're letting me go. So I was, you know, it it really, I was lucky.

Host 23:17

But it was probably a good exposure to, you know, the regular army. Uh it was great. You know, to to plug into that leadership stuff.

Nick Barringer 23:22

And oh, it was, it was, it was, it was great to be a platoon leader and to kind of get that experience under your belt. Um, it just helped me go into the, you know, the dietetic program a little more confident. And then I definitely had that chip on my shoulder of like, you know, I still felt that, oh, I didn't get picked up the first time type thing.

Host 23:39

So I'm gonna show you guys how good I am, type thing. Yeah.

Nick Barringer 23:42

Yeah, a little of that. Um, but I was I was also probably a little troublesome for my preceptor, uh, my my main one as well, just because I was, you know, I'd always push back on how things applied to the, you know, like having got a little taste of the real army, then you go to hospital at the time. I think it's changed since then, and it was like totally not the, I hate to say it like real army. I would always point that out and probably not for my betterment, but uh, but yeah.

Host 24:08

Yeah. So did you have to go through any uh additional military training once you got picked up into the dietitian program?

Nick Barringer 24:14

No, it was it was just uh clinical rotation at Brook Army Medical Center. So nine months I was at Brook Army Medical Center, and that's where we did all our, you know, our food service rotation, like I mentioned, uh rotation on the burn ward, uh rotation looking at, you know, hypertension, dyslipidemia, um, uh renal disease. We would do rotations out in the community, like with the WIC clinic. So, you know, dietitians are very broad generalist, and so you kind of get all that. And then when you once you're done with that, you can sit for the exam.

Host 24:43

Um what was your passion early on about um you know, wanting to do this and and and where was that drive from?

Nick Barringer 24:51

It was it was performance. Like I always wanted to do performance and and work with athletes. And when I came into the military, there really wasn't that path there, um, which ended up being good because it it forced me to get out there and and kind of for lack of a better word, you know, think outside the box or phrase. Um, so so that's what I I did. So I got stationed at Fort Hood uh as a dietitian, and I was at the hospital and I quickly realized I gotta figure out a way to get out of the hospital. And luckily I had a great, like hard-charging dietitian who was in charge of me, and she was very supportive. So I got an office, I went down to first calve division, and I was at and I forgot what clinic it was, and I was like, Can I set up here and see, you know, your folks here in the clinic where the PAs were and all? And they're like, sure, they gave it to so because it was easier for them, it was more convenient. So every, you know, so many uh days a week, I would go there and I would see all like the first calf people, like a lot of weight control and things like that. But it was easy for them to come see me versus like if you're at the hospital waiting for people to come to you, it was it was all the people that were just like told or mandated to to come to you. So you had to go where the soldiers were.

Host 26:02

So you were kind of being proactive about wanting to, you know, spread the good news and to help. Yeah, that's awesome. You know, it's kind of like a side rabbit trail that we won't dive too far in, but why do you think we talked about this at dinner last night too? You know, you I've had some medical history, but you know, anybody who has kind of big problems, they go to see a doctor. The doctor is never asking them, what are you eating? What's your diet? Like, you know, why is it why is it that we be we become that way? You know, because uh you and I both know that diet is such a big part, and God, they're linking food and all these different things. Like we could talk about that for hours in and of itself, but why are medical professionals, like even cardiologists, man? I'll I'll never forget I had a heart attack. Uh, and I watched my cardiologist and an ICU doctor argue in the ICU about whether or not avocados were good for me. And that's when it kind of like the the light kind of clicked on for me. It's like, man, you you know, I don't think that they didn't want it. I just don't think they they didn't receive training, which is crazy. That's uh because, you know, a lot of heart disease, the number one killer to my knowledge in America is heart disease. And a lot of that, I mean, yes, there's a genetic component, but I would say a good portion of it has to do with what you eat and how you put and what you put in your body. What do you think that disconnect is?

Nick Barringer 27:13

Oh, well, it's it's the the training, right? Like if you look at medical school, I think they get like one nutrition class. That's crazy. And so they're just not equipped. Now you do have physicians who are equipped. Like, for instance, you know, uh a doctor Gabrielle Lyon, who who did her uh understudy under uh Dr. Don Lehman on protein and all like that, you know, and that's the same study and the same program that uh Dr. Lane Norton was in and stuff. So she comes from like a really rich nutrition background and then got her medical degree and all like that. So you have those folks out there.

Host 27:43

So I don't want to discount off as it's well, and that's probably why she's become so popular, right? Because she's speaking, she's speaking to both sides of you know, both dealing with the problem, but also, you know, providing, you know, health-based based solutions. I just think a lot of us in America are just getting fed up of, you know, you go see a doctor and they're just gonna load you up on a pill, some sort of pill, when I think a lot of us, you know, especially as we're getting older, like we're trying to take the least amount of pills as possible. Yeah, yeah. But at least that's what your goal should be. And look, man, I'm not saying that there's no position for pharmaceuticals. There obviously there are some things that, you know, that that can help. Medicine has done a lot of good, but it just seemed like, at least in Western medicine, you know, we overpush uh pills instead of looking, you know, to to more natural treatments, diet being a huge portion. So yeah, I was just curious your thoughts on that. So what was uh what was after Fort Hood?

Nick Barringer 28:33

So Fort Hood was was straight into uh Baghdad. Um so there was, you know, at the time you could volunteer to go on these deployments. So I volunteered and I got uh linked up with the 28th Cash out of uh Fort Bragg. So, you know, we were uh, you know, profus, you're basically attached to them. So I went to, you know, Fort Bragg. I think we were there, I don't know, like a month or whatever, you know, for the train up and all. And then, you know, you deploy and we were at Ebensina, Baghdad ER. And so I was I was there and you know, kind of get on the ground, and there was another dietitian there with me. What year is this in Baghdad? Ish, oh five, maybe? Yeah, it's like oh five, oh six, like around there. So I was busy. Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. You remember like that, yeah. Um, so we we get there and it just because of the way it works, right? In terms of service members get injured, you try to get them to launch you as fast as possible. We weren't really holding patients that long. We're you know, the people we held more were like local nationals, and so there wasn't a big need for the the nutrition uh at the time that was the medical nutrition therapy, you know, that that you do in the hospital. And we already had one dietitian. But what they needed was a public affairs officer, and then they had all these Iraqi interpreters, and they're like, we need somebody to manage them. And so I'm kind of one of these people that I just I love a new adventure. I'm like, yeah, I'll do it.

Host 29:56

Like, let's let's Well, you're just not a lazy person. So if you can't find something, you're gonna, you know.

Nick Barringer 30:01

Yeah. So I I mean, I, you know, I still did a little performance nutrition here and there, but um, I got to work with the media, and and you know, you'll appreciate this kind of knowing that that time frame was, you know, IEDs were everywhere. So a lot of the media, like the move was if you wanted to cover the war, going out was was dangerous, right? I mean, you know, it was and so they would they would come to the they would come to the combat support hospital because they could film kind of what's going on, they could cover it, you're there in Baghdad, but you're you're not gonna probably get blown up the hospital. And so it we had a lot of media rotating through. And I mean, I was a new lieutenant, which still blows my mind, you know, like um, you know, I had my cell phone, all like that, and they would call and I would pick them up and I would host them and you know, give them the kind of left and right limit and and you know, do the do the thing. And and then I had my interpreters and they had all these issues, you know, they're they're getting death threats, you know, some of the economy, like trying to, you know, sometimes like finding them bad so they could stay in the hospital or stay on the base because they got death threats, and if they went home, they were scared somebody saw them coming in and to get, you know, like man, the the the mission of those interpreters, like like my my heart goes out to them, man, because they were just in a tough spot, right? Like, you know, they're trying they're trying to make a living for their family, but um they you know they're they're seen as you know, obviously traitors by the enemy, and and so they're they're handled very um poorly if they get caught. Absolutely. Um how how long were you on that deployment? I was there just six months, and and so what what happened, this is how I got into Ranger Regiment, was I was there, I was half, you know, you know, training, doing my thing. Um, a position opened up at the 75th Ranger Regiment. And and the funny thing is, I didn't know what the 75th Ranger Regiment was. I'm telling myself, like I was like, oh, that sounds cool. It's like, oh yeah, with these Rangers and you know, special. I didn't really know, man.

Host 31:57

Especially if you came from a smaller ORTC program.

Nick Barringer 32:00

Yeah, yeah. Like, I, you know, I it's and so um I I mean I I knew enough uh the the people I work around. I should say, like my my first sergeant when I was at drum, I should say this, was was a third ranger battalion. So I knew they were badass, but I didn't know a lot uh about it. And so they were standing up a human performance program. And um I was like, well, I'm you know, the the chief dietitian had reached out to me and um I was like, well, you know, I'm in I'm in a Iraq. She's like, don't worry about that. Just are you willing to kind of me throw your name in the hat? And I'm like, yeah, like like let's go. And and so uh she did. And again, like what was wild is like some dudes showed up like in the middle of the night one night and like to to talk to me. And so I went down to the D fac and they were like Rangers, and like they they talked to me, and you know, that was that, and they left. Um, and then a little while later, they're like, Yeah, we want him. And luckily, my commander had worked, the hospital commander, Aaron Edgar, had worked in special operations, the XO had worked in special operations, and so they're they're like, you know, hey, uh, we're gonna have Nick finish out his deployment. And the rate, you know, they were like, No, we need, you know, we're we're trying to stand up this program. We need to kind of get it going now. And they made it happen.

Host 33:16

Oh, so you left from Fort Hood, went back and PCS'd?

Nick Barringer 33:19

Yeah, man, straight away.

Host 33:20

Not Fort Hood, I guess from Baghdad, I mean.

Nick Barringer 33:21

But yeah, but yeah, that was it. Like they they worked up my paperwork, you know, I had to get a general because I'm leaving a deployment early, which you know, back then that was yeah, that was wild. Another one of those, like, you know, and and um, so it was like I got on a you know plane, I flew to Hood, like packed up my stuff, drove to Benning, and I was like started airborne school right away. Um, went through airborne school, you know, what graduated on a Friday, Sunday, I'm signing into RASP. You know, it was just like that.

Host 33:52

And oh, you got to go. That's right, because everybody goes in the regiment. So uh what was rasp like for a dietitian?

Nick Barringer 33:58

Well, well, so what what's you know, and I'll tell I won't tell the guy's name. What I found out was there was a dietitian at Benning who had been working with him, who had tried out. And so I guess the first diet, I was the second choice. Oh he had failed rasp. Oh wow. And so did they tell you that? Oh yeah, oh yeah, because because so here's the thing, man. Like I go there, they're like, they're like, Yeah, you gotta go, you better pass, you know, because there it was, it was basically if I failed, like they're just gonna kick me like needs of the army. I didn't know where I was gonna go. Like, like, so it's like you you gotta, you know, they they were giving me a hard time.

Host 34:34

Fort Wayne Wright, Alaska.

Nick Barringer 34:35

Right, right. That was that was kind of the thrown out. And and so I was like, you know, it was kind of with it or on it mentality. Um, but yeah, no, it was it was great because obviously I was the only dietitian, which makes people curious. Well, like when they find out you're a dietitian, like, what are you doing here? You know, um, it was all infantry officers, but you know, man, they're they're the best of the best. Um, I will say it was humbling like physically, because coming from a hospital, I won't say I was like the fittest guy in the hospital, but I was usually the top, right? And so I, you know, having that mentality of like where I stood, kind of, you know, when we'd go on runs at the hospital and stuff, we did our five mile for rasp. And, you know, we take off. And so I'm just like thinking, all right, I'm gonna run with the front of the pack. So I'm running with the front of the pack, and like the first mile goes and it's like a six-minute mile, and I'm like, oh, I can't keep this space up, you know, and like you know, I fell back and I realized like I am no longer uh at the top of the food chain with these guys, these guys are just different animals.

Host 35:35

And I'm sure they didn't you didn't get tons of time to train before you went to Rasp, right? Or were you?

Nick Barringer 35:40

I mean, I try you know, you do you do what you do. I did a lot of running on the treadmill, and then what's funny is I how I did the ruck was um if anybody's been to even seen it, you know, is like so you have the little like helo pad outside the hospital. I would just do that, I would just like ruck laps around it. And then whenever I would hear the helicopters come in with like a casualty, I'd run off, you know, they would unload, I'd go back, and then I would just ruck, you know, it was it was monotonous, but at the same time, it's like if you want it, you you train, you find time.

Host 36:07

Yeah.

Nick Barringer 36:07

Any issues in rasp or no, no, it uh, you know, went uh was lucky, you know, went kind of straight through, did did all the things I needed to do, um, you know, went through the interview. Um, so so it was good. I mean, the good news was, yeah, there was there was pressure like anything, but the fact that I was the only dietitian. And and you know, if if if I sucked, they definitely would have not taken me. But once I got through all the assessment selection and then kind of the interview and the psychology the psychological screening, it was like, okay, they're gonna hire me.

Host 36:40

Sergeant Major's question. We've been kicking ass without a dietitian. What are you going to do? How did you answer that?

Nick Barringer 36:46

What was your I stumbled. I wish I'd love to say that it was like a smooth answer, but it was the whole like, well, you know, you can basically kick ass better. We can improve it, we can help you recover. You can uh it was it was tough though. But that was like my first question right out of the gate. Um, but again, it really set the tone for the for the unit I was in, and it reminded me, you know, hey man, you it's like you get to prove yourself every day. Like that's uh I think that was, you know, I knew this is a tough crowd.

Host 37:17

Uh first dietitian at Ranger Regiment. Paint that picture. What was it like walking into that environment, you know, for that first time? You've graduated RASP.

Nick Barringer 37:24

Yeah, well, so what's funny is like I graduated RASP, and then right away, um, as I'm I go home and like, because that was like when I graduated Rasp, I could move in. So I moved into an apartment because all my stuff was in storage because I, you know, didn't know. And so I was unpacking my stuff and I got a call and they're like, hey, we're gonna do expert fuel medical badge in Delonega, Georgia, in like three days or four. And they're they're like, hey, you be ready. And I was like, okay, yeah. So then I immediately like went from unpacking to packing. Um, and then went up to Delana, and I was in Delonica, Georgia for the next three weeks doing EFMB. Um and that went great, you know, got got that and came back. And so then after that, it was like Oh, you went through as a student? Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So so it was they they want everybody at Range Regiment to get their, you know, EFMB, do do those things that are medical. Uh, so I was able to do that, and that was that was a great experience. Again, I got to kind of bond with some of the medics there. But then once, you know, getting back to uh regiment, like the offices, you know, I come in. Uh I don't even have a computer. I'm sharing a computer with the master sergeant, Matt Wilson, who was great. Um, I should say the guy who created this program, the Ranger Athlete Warrior program, uh, Danny McMillan, which a lot of people, you know, maybe have not heard that name, but like one of the most brilliant guys. He now teaches physical therapy at the University of Puget Sound, but was just a great leader, brilliant thinker, um, and created that. And then there's a guy, uh Rob Montz, who was an occupational therapist who was there uh, you know, with me as well. And so really um before that, a PA had been running it, uh, Ray Sterling, and it was it was good getting it going. But then kind of when we were all got together there in the same office, it was Danny, myself, Matt Wilson, and and uh Rob Monts. And man, I didn't even have a computer because I was I was you know a brand new captain. I was like, I shared it with uh the Master Sergeant Matt Wilson.

Host 39:18

So and I'm sure the old Master Sergeant, bro, there probably wasn't a lot of sharing going on.

Nick Barringer 39:22

No, he was man, it was it was so great because uh like he he you know he had been uh in you know reconnaissance, he had done best ranger. He is like the the the model for like ranger, if you think of like fit, like in shape, like you know, hard charging, loud. And um he really took me under his wing in terms of you know, he would just grab me be like, hey, we're going for a run. Hey, we're gonna do a run and swim and we're gonna, you know, and he would just like just smoke me because he's in phenomenal shape. Um, but it was he taught me kind of like what ranger regiment was, you know, like to have that uh was was really helpful. And then all the medics too um were were great. Um you know, I had a sign, so I was the regimental nutritionist. So my scroll said R nut on it. So I get it and they give it to me to put on my wall. I put on my wall, Asher probably wasn't there like not even a day, and it was gone. So then I go and find it and I take it back, and silly enough, I hang it back up on my wall defiantly within a day, it disappeared again, and I never saw it until I left. They they gave it to me.

Host 40:32

Who why'd they take it?

Nick Barringer 40:33

What was the well Arna, I think, was funny, but then I would get reports of it being seen in Afghanistan, in Iraq, it made it down to the river walk in San Antonio. The medics were just that was the thing about it, is like it's not, I don't want to even call it hazing. It was it was just like that was when I knew, like, all right, they're they're cool with me, is like they would play jokes on me.

Host 40:54

They're not smashing on you, bro. They don't like you.

Nick Barringer 40:55

Oh, oh, the the jokes were nonstop. I remember there was a a printer uh, you know, uh down the hall. And so I would like print stuff. And I remember I got my printer set up and I was printing and I was going down to get it, and I was like, man, it's not working and doing stuff like that. And I didn't know there was a medic, we'll we'll uh call him El Guapo. Uh he was always getting me. He was just going and taking my paper like every time it's not saying anything. And so for a whole day, I I thought I couldn't get the printer to work just just for fun.

Host 41:23

What was the uh, I mean, obviously coming from you know the medical service side of the house and the ranger regiment, what was the culture shock or you know, what were you most surprised about the regimental culture?

Nick Barringer 41:33

I don't know if after RASP there there was any surprises because they do a great job. They're extremely professional and how they prepare you. Um it's just very standards based. It's you know, the story I'll tell, and I and I've told it before, but but it just to me, nothing better sums up the way regiment works is you know, we were doing uh pre-jump and you know, you gotta be there on time, you gotta do all the things, and it's like uh, you know, a master sergeant certain first class like leading us through. And two rangers were coming walking down to the pre-jump area. You couldn't see them at the time, but they were walking down and we had already started, and like the master sergeant just starts yelling at him, Ranger, you're late, you better be running or whatever. So these two rangers start running, and as they get closer, you realize it's the uh the the regimental commander or the citizen. It's like it's like two, you know, 06s. And um the one of the the other NCOs, I heard him like say the other one was like, dude, you just yelled at an 012. And he's like, I don't care, they were late, and he just kept going. But what what I took from all that interaction was one, how that NCO was like, whatever, like standard standard, man. And then two, those two 06s, you know what they did? They ran, they did it, didn't say anything, started doing pre-jump, just whatever. Like, and that was the way it operated. There was there was no like, do you know who I am? There was nothing, nope. It was just that's the standard. And so that was really cool.

Host 42:58

It's impressive, man. I mean, you were you and I were talking before we hit the record button, man. I've I've been I've had the uh the fortune opportunity to be around a lot of rangers, a lot of friends are rangers. We've had a bunch of rangers on the podcast, just a different style of human being, man. Probably, probably some of my favorite people. Um, I don't know what it is about that culture. Maybe it's you know what you're explaining, that standard, and that I mean, these guys long after they get out, you know, they're still holding that standard personally. Um you know, I haven't seen too many dudes grossly, you know, out of shape even since regiment, unless they've had some you know injuries, right? Uh plays a poll. But at what point did you decide, hey man, I I'm going to Ranger School?

Nick Barringer 43:35

It it was a given. It was a given. As soon as I decided to go to Ranger Regiment, like that was that was known. If you're gonna be a leader in Ranger Regiment, you gotta go to Ranger School. And and so, you know, kind of right after EFMB, whatever I was looking at it and and and to go. Um, and you know, that was that was that. There was no question. Uh you just, yeah, like I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror. Yeah.

Host 44:01

Well, did you um did it was anybody giving you smack? You know what I mean? Like, hey, bro, you better pass or else.

Nick Barringer 44:06

Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. Like there was a lot of but there's a lot of support. There was tons of support. Again, like like uh, you know, Matt Wilson, you know, my ruck, and you know, the the damn packing list is like a mile long, and you know, getting all that and going to Ranger Joe's and like the medics, they they were great. Um, just yeah, super supportive. And then, you know, pre-ranger, now it's I think they call it cert smaller unit ranger tactics. You know, then man, they beat the crap out of you, like out at Cole Range. And so I was like going through pre-ranger, I was like, crap, this is I I was I I was having second thoughts. But what was so funny is like maybe that's why they did it that way. Pre ranger was so hard when I first like got the Derby phase of Ranger School. I was like, Oh, this isn't as bad. They're not as these guys are nicer to us than the dudes at Regiment were probably by design, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How was uh how was Ranger School for you? It was It was great. And and the huge, huge, huge tactical advantage I had was being in Ranger Regiment because Ranger Regiment sends so many guys that there were dudes in my squad that I went to pre-ranger with. Oh. So we already knew how to operate. We already had our SOPs. We already had it. And you you you knew them. And they're like good dudes. And so they kind of you could lean on them. Um and and you know, as you know, like you don't the the saying goes is like you don't get your own tab. Like your buddy gets your tab for you and you get it for him. Cause there you're gonna have days that you're just gonna be dog shit. Yeah, yeah. It's a given. And that's when you're gonna need your buddy to kind of step up. And there's gonna be days he's gonna be. And so uh for me, you know, it was really cool because especially like the some of the heavy weapons and stuff that I never operated, like having like the ranger infantry dude come over and be like, hey man, this you know, this is what you need to do, and whatever. Like, like that was huge. Or uh a guy stayed up, one of the guys from Third Ranger Battalion stayed up with me late in mountains to go over my knots because for whatever reason, dude, I can't tie a knot. I'm like not knots blow my brain. And and and I was gonna be like the only guy to fail the knot test, but he stayed up with me at night and sleep's a precious commodity, and he had the knots down, but he just like, hey, this is you know, showing me going over. So it was just things like that, man. That's awesome. That that was it.

Host 46:19

What uh what were some of the biggest challenges you had in Ranger School?

Nick Barringer 46:22

I when I recycled Florida, I I mean, well, I one, I think everybody thinks about quitting in mountains or they're lying to you. Like I was like, I don't really need to do this, I'm a dietitian. Why am I here? You know, you're getting rained on. So so there was that. But then uh when I recycled in Florida, like recent, like that was a kick in the pants. What happened? Um, you know, I messed up on a patrol. I, you know, I I I don't know. I mean, I I do remember the the mess up, and and to this day, I mean it's it's not an excuse. But I was I was counting the guys back in, it was dark, whatever. And the RIs walked through our line and I counted them instead of our two guys out on security who are still and left them out there. Yeah. And so I got a no-go, and you know, hey, it is what it is. Hey, I learned, you know, and going through the second time was actually kind of a gift because I I can say that now. Um, but it really dialed me in and it made me like, okay, now, you know, I'm gonna be extra on top of everything.

Host 47:19

What do you say to the the dudes out there that are listening, uh, either wanting to or preparing to go to ranger school?

Nick Barringer 47:24

What's um, you know, what's a little piece of advice, even if it's nutrition advice of well, I would say for the, you know, I will give a piece of training advice that I I found was very helpful for me and how I approached it was was not to, you know, rap week, the standards are the standards. You can look them up, you know, what you need to do. You don't want to over-index on that. I would say make yourself as injury resilient as possible, because once you meet the standards, right, in rap week, it's just a lot of long walks with your your pack on. And what do what gets people is injuries, man? You roll your ankle, you know, all the stabilities. So, so kind of like the workout we were doing this morning, like probably do a lot more of like stability work, uh, you know, tendon, follow Vern Griffin, like like do a lot of like really invest in that because when you get fatigued with that pack on, like that's when you're gonna roll your ankle, you're gonna do those things. So invest in those type of movements versus just like being as fast as you can or whatever, because that doesn't really matter. And then from the nutrition piece of it is, you know, people started using this. What I would do it it whenever you like traded the MREs, I always trade for calories. Like I don't care about taste. So for instance, MMs, hot commodity. Anybody will trade you anything for MMs. I would trade for, and I'll date myself the time, the dairy shake. Because I went from 220 calories to 400 calories, I just gained 200 calories.

Host 48:47

What a hack. No, most people wouldn't think about that. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Barringer 48:50

So that was that was the advantage of being a dietitian. So I would make that. I would, I would, I probably never ate MMs in Ranger School because I would always trade them for a higher calorie item.

Host 48:58

Ah, super smart. Dude, that that piece enough was probably worth it for somebody out there. What was it like building trust in the regiment? I mean, obviously you come back, you have your tab, so you've you've hit the wickets, right? But you're still, you know, you're still trying to, you know, cement your place. Um, when did you really start seeing that take shape?

Nick Barringer 49:14

After, you know, after earning the tab, that that was big. That that helped because they were proud. My, you know, the the instructors, like I remember, you know, uh one of my master on Regan, it was like, hey, I got a dietitian through Ranger School. Like he was telling somebody, like that, that was kind of they were, you know, I was one of theirs. They they got through.

Host 49:34

Yeah, because they're not low on the standards for you, dude.

Nick Barringer 49:36

Right, right. And it was cool. But I will tell you, like, again, back another like Ranger story was so when I graduated, I was first dietitian to graduate. So like the chief dietitian flew out and was there at my graduation out on Victory Pond, you know, it was a big deal.

Host 49:48

Like they, you know, you're the first dietitian to get together. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Nick Barringer 49:51

So so they did a big story, you know. It was like, oh, you know, you're kind of like, oh yeah. And so that medic who would always steal my stuff and play the the practical jokes, Quapo. Uh, I get back and he goes, Congratulations, sir. You just accomplished what every PFC in Ranger Regiment does. And like walked off. But but it was so good because it was like, oh yeah, no big deal, man. Like that was that was a Friday. Like what, you know, and it was so it was a good reminder of like, yeah, you didn't really do anything. Yeah, just because you're the first dietitian, okay.

Host 50:21

You know, yeah, I remember my best friend telling me, dude, he was a 275 guy. You know, he actually got a little bit of break when he went to ranger school because you know, you just get smoked in the regiment. Um, and so I remember him saying, like, you know, when he went to ranger school, he wasn't saying it was easy, but it was almost a you know a break because those guys in the line companies just getting broke up.

Nick Barringer 50:39

Yeah, I didn't get like that, but but no, but it but it was good. Yeah, once once I got back and then was able to to kind of work with the guys and stuff, and they they saw and ultimately, right? Like I asked a lot of questions, I would go to a lot of trainings, I would go to like any, you know, any jump or you know, any any anything that was going on in range regiment, I would go to. Like I'm I'm I'm constantly out of my office. Yeah, and I think that was the biggest thing, you know, building trust, doing uh jujitsu with the guys, right? Training with them. I would go down, you know, probably for uh for my health detriment, would go down to third ranger battalion in their fight house in the morning and like do boxing and do things and just be out there and and be about and like that's you just see you. Yeah, you get that street cred.

Host 51:21

Um let's talk about the Raw program, the Ranger Athlete Warrior Program. You were definitely a part of that team that created that. Uh take us through the genesis, whose idea was it? What was the vision?

Nick Barringer 51:32

So and this is this is pre-me, so I'll tell you what I know pre-me. Um so so you know, it was at the time Colonel the Camera, you know, later General the Camera. I think he looked across regiment and would see, hey, if a squad leader was a runner, they ran. Squad leader was lifter, they lifted. But they had the same kind of combat mission. So was looking to kind of bring something and uh a standardized kind of training protocol that was best for Rangers. And I think he got Matt Wilson, because Matt's one of like the fittest dudes, you know, and it was Ray Sterling, one of the PAs, started and as they were doing it and kind of searching and looking, um, they got Danny McMillan out of he was a physical therapist, really smart in this area and had done research, had you know been at West Point and all like that. They brought him in as the physical therapist at um at Regiment to stand up and birth the RAW program. And so Danny doing that was like, all right, I need somebody to do nutrition. I need to get an occupational therapist to create a team because you know, the raw was performance nutrition, um, sports medicine, the physical component, and mental toughness. And so I, you know, did the performance nutrition, Danny did the sports medicine, Rob did the mental toughness, and we all kind of combined to do the physical component, the physical training.

Host 52:53

What a what a cool thing. And I think that really kind of spread through the special operations community, um, which is something just super unique, right? And it makes sense. Mike Burke was on the podcast, long time 275 guy as well. Uh, ended up being a first star over there. And, you know, I mean, essentially, you know, you start looking at JSOC, which Rangers are part of JSOC. I mean, they're they're dang near tier one athletes or D1 athletes, you know, in the military. And it was cool to see, you know, to go back and hear how the military started treating them that way, right? Because I mean, you're you're you're putting people through physical feats that, you know, they're pretty tough, right? And so you need you're you're investing in these people and you're spending all this money for training. But it was really cool, and it's really cool as we were podcast prepping to hear how they were investing in, you know, recovery, mental health, and and this is you know, or I mean, so what we're talking what, 2006 maybe?

Nick Barringer 53:39

Yeah, yeah. This like, yeah, six, seven. So early on, like this is all novel. Like, treat treating, you know, the term like tactical athlete was was relatively new in that entire concept. Um, but I do want to point out, too, that like, man, it wasn't like, hey, let's everybody do raw. Like, we there was some pushback, like, not everybody was a fan initially, sure. Especially older guys have been in there for a while. Yeah, and and we and we went through iterations and we learned, and I think that's the biggest testament to Danny was he's a very like adaptive thinker. Um, so you know, he had the degree, he had all the things, but he also knew he had to win the hearts and minds of the Rangers. So, you know, we would like try an exercise that on paper or in the science would be like great. And Rangers are like, nah, it's we're we're not doing that. And it's like, okay, all right, let's let's let's switch our approach.

Host 54:29

What do you think uh helped you and your team get buy-in from the regiment?

Nick Barringer 54:34

Well, you know, one of like you know, we were out there doing it. We were doing the damn thing. Like we we put our money where our mouth is. We were, you know, we were out there training, we were out there, you know, we weren't behind our desk. Um, but then the other big piece of it is the regimental surgeon, um, uh, you know, Colonel Russ Cotwall was was our our boss and was extremely supportive of that. Um, and then the regimental commanders, and the one who, you know uh really, you know, helped us out because we were forming the raw assessments then, was uh, you know, uh now General Clark, rich rich Rich Clark. Uh, because when we came up with the raw assessments, which is like the test, right? He was like, you know what, I'm gonna go and do it with every company commander. So when the regimental commander shows up and's like, hey, we're doing these assessments, boys, and doing that, like it it just set the tone, right? It set the tone. And the fact too that he can throw down, he's fit. And and and so those those kind of you know key pieces really got us going. And then when we started identifying champions, so you know, it's not about selling the but you know, battalion commander, command star major important, but it's not about getting them sold. It's about getting that like that e5 who is the fittest E5 ever. Like, I'll give you an example, like you know, 275. You mentioned 275. There's a guy, Mike Choppa, who at the time was there, and like Choppa looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger, like like that's that's what he looks like. And everybody looked at him. He was he was an E5 or E6, but like he's the fittest, well, like one of the fittest dudes. So whatever he did, everybody wanted to do. So we got him to do raw. Like we convinced him, we you know really sold him on it. And then it's like, oh, he does it. Well then, you know, and and so it was it was things like that. He was one of our big champions, and there were other guys at 375, other guys at 175. And so that was what really identifying like who are the rangers that all the other rangers look at and are like, I want to be that guy, and then talking to them and being like, hey, this is why you should do this.

Host 56:32

And so you were identifying those key peepers within the battalions of the companies. That's cool. How did you guys do that? Did you get you know company buy-in or or we well, we traveled a lot.

Nick Barringer 56:41

We did a lot of TDY. Like, I mean, you know, uh we would go out to 275, go out to 175, and you go out there and you have these these events and you see people and you see them training, you see them moving. We would do these raw events and you'd quickly identify. And then a lot of them would self-identify too. Like, like Mike, for instance, he would come over and ask questions, ask nutrition questions. I mean, he was into performance. Um, you know, there was a guy at 375, uh, you know, uh, he's out and out, uh, Aaron Santana. Same thing, man. Sant Santana was just like he just he would ask all these questions and stuff. And then what was cool too was about them is they had some awesome thoughts. Like, you know, to this day, I'll say this about like, you know, Santana, like, I don't he never got his degree in kinesiology or anything like that, but he thinks that way and he knows movement and he knows biomechanics. So he would like say things that would make me go, oh shit, let me rethink that or like re-re-look at that, or he would discover a training program. And like I remember he went out in California and trained with this guy, and he like brought it back and was like, show me some of the stuff he's doing. I'm like, man, that's really smart. We need to incorporate that, you know. So, so there was a lot of that also going on, like learning from them because again, like they're the people doing it every day. So if they're like, hey, I do this and this helps me, you need to listen.

Host 57:55

Yeah, you know, it's kind of wild, man. A lot of people think of the Ranger Regiments, a bunch of knuckle draggers, and you know, they have that esque about them, but man, there's some smart dudes in the regiment, you know.

Nick Barringer 58:03

Oh, yeah, brilliant.

Host 58:04

Deep thinkers, readers, you know, and and and that's cool. So um, can you kind of dive in? You you mentioned, you know, what your team made up of. You had a dietitian, sports medicine, uh, mental health, you had an occupational guy. What was it that you guys were doing? If you could kind of break that, break that apart uh as far as what the raw program was. You know, you've mentioned that you guys traveled to different places. What was it you guys were traveling and teaching?

Nick Barringer 58:30

Yeah, so um the model we leaned on really quick, because at the time you get to think, again, this is this is before strength coaches and all like that, as you know, now they're out there in the military. Um, so there was none of that. So it was just us. And so you had, you know, uh one, the units spread out, you know, you go from Columbus, Georgia to Savannah, which isn't too bad, right? But then all the way out to Fort Lewis, Washington, out to Seattle. So, so, so we're spread out. Um, so the three or four of us can't do everything. So we we incorporated it quickly, a train the trainer model. And so we would basically go out to those units and do like a raw university of you know, two weeks of training where I'm going over to teach them the basic nutrition so they could give their guys nutrition information. Again, you're not a dietitian, but let's get you going. Danny's teaching them basic like pre-spec sports medicine stuff and stuff to identify when to go to the physical therapist. Uh Rob's teaching them some mental uh, you know, toughness expertise and exercises and things like that. We're teaching them how to periodize a program, how to design a program, uh different exercises to do, to teach, you know, whether they want to do a power clean, okay, how do you teach it? How do you um uh, you know, break that down into different components? So we would do those classes and train them up. Uh, and then what we learned is we would bring in other partners because, you know, the saying I use all the time is like sometimes it's hard to be a prophet in your own village. So we were, you know, we were like mom and dad, right, in Ranger Regiment is the human performance people, but Rangers looked outside human performance people. Like at the time, Jim Jones was huge or emerging with Mark Twite, you know, who's a great, great climber. Um, so we started looking at some of the stuff we did. We went out to Utah, we trained with Mark, and at the time Rob McDonald were out there, and we're like, all right, these guys make sense. We we like what they're doing, we like their philosophy. So we made them part of the raw program. So after Rangers trained with us, they would go train with Mark and Rob. Um, we would bring them to the battalions and they would do a training exercise with them. Um, and then we were looking for another partner, and we found uh at the time Athletes Performance Institute, which is now morphed into Exos, Mark Verstegan, they were in Florida. They trained a lot of their Olympic at our Olympic and like uh NFL athletes for the combine and did a lot of deep training. So we identified them as a partner. So we would then send Rangers there to get training. So what we would do is we would do the initial training. Mark, you know, Twite and his guys would do kind of the follow-on, then we would do Athletes Performance Institute, and then that kind of created our master raw trainer. And so we had those guys out there that could either uh you know refer to us if they had questions or anything, or implement the raw training at their unit.

Host 1:01:08

Um, without you know, diving into your entire presentation, which you may or may not even remember, but what were you specifically teaching on the diet side of the importance of nutrition, et cetera?

Nick Barringer 1:01:18

Yeah, you know, it's it's funny. I I think my slides are still up on the Ranger website at Benning. Um, so yeah, you find them a little embarrassed. They they've been around that. But but but but kind of you know showing what's going on today. I remember I would one of my opening slides, I would have the ingredient list of like the chicken nuggets at McDonald's. And I mean it's it's this long. And I would have like a picture of a chicken. I'd be like, does that look like chicken to you? And it was it was basically trying to talk to people about okay, whole food, you know, eating, you know, where does your food come from, reading labels, um, just those really nutrition basics, learning the micros, how to plug in what macros based off of your activity. Um, and then, you know, hydration was a big piece of it. We we talked about that uh in terms of hydrate, monitoring, hydrate, weighing yourself before and after events, drinking 16 to 20 ounces of fluid for every pound lost. So you're rehydrated for the next mission or the next event, um, when to use electrolytes, all like that. And then supplements, like supplements was that was the sexy topic everybody.

Host 1:02:23

Yeah, that's what I was live, that's where my brain was going. You know, what what was the craze back then, or or what were you guys finding uh work that you're because I I remember at one point like JSOC was pretty tight on what you could take, uh, even on you know, not just talking about steroids, but like just in general. Um, I know at the unit, especially during my brief time over there, you know, they they couldn't even take anything without it getting approved.

Nick Barringer 1:02:45

Yeah, certain certain schools there were when when you were at regiment, there was there was no limit. I mean, in in terms of like obviously any you know leak legal things. Um you know, I was at the time of man, like um, what was it? NO explode was hot, you know, the the pre-workouts, but then Yeah, we were just talking with one of my podcast guests, like Jack 3D when that came out. Yeah, yeah, the Jack 3D pretty much meth. Yeah, yeah, and the DMAA. Yeah, so so a lot of it too was like supplement safety. Um, because you know, you had the pro hormones were very prolific. Oh yeah, man. And and so guys would take those and they'd have liver issues, or they would get, you know, gynecomastia, the fatty nipples. And so, you know, I did a whole like education campaign on that and teaching people how to read a label and say, okay, if you see 17 in the alpha symbol, that means it's 17 alpha alkalated, it's trying to bypass the liver. You need to put that back. That's not a dietary supplement you need to take. Um, but then realizing that if you say just don't take supplements, that's a poor strategy. So it's like, all right, hey, let's talk about creatine, right? We were talking about creatine then. Um and I man, that was that was sometimes I I had it was tough educating commanders because there were commanders that were like, well, I don't want my guys taking creatine because it dehydrates them. And and even at the time, I was like, well, sir, there's two studies that show it improves thermal regulation and stuff. You know, so so I would, you know, kind of do that battle, both educating the guys, but then sometimes the senior leaders. Um, but you know, okay, beta-alanine, um, that that was a, you know, with the buffering capacity and some of the stuff um that's shown with that. Caffeine, that was, you know, that was a big one. Um, so, so just okay, you know, saying these are the supplements you need to stay away from. This is what you need to look out for, but this is what I would use.

Host 1:04:24

And and what were the things back then that you were saying, hey, uh, you know, I think these are beneficial, these can help you, knowing the ranger mission, which I'm sure you got super educated on. What what kind of things I would would were you, I wouldn't say pushing, but what kind of things were you kind of encouraging uh supplement-wise back then?

Nick Barringer 1:04:41

Yeah, I mean, one was just like, you know, kind of recovery shakes and bars. We we had access to those. So using those because, you know, rangers, when they were going hard, they were always in a caloric deficit. So closing that caloric gap um was was important. Yeah, those metrics bars were like four or five hundred calories. So keeping them, keeping them fueled, right? We was kind of step one. Um, step two after that, we we del creatine omega-3 fatty acids. A lot of uh guy there, there's a guy I was able to meet while I was at Ranger Regiment, is that a guy by the name of Colonel Mike Lewis, who's done a ton of research with omega-3 fatty acid and like suicide and traumatic brain injuries. Really? So he was he was phenomenal, educating me. So we really, we really pushed uh omega-3 fatty acids.

Host 1:05:24

Like in a pill form? Yeah, yeah.

Nick Barringer 1:05:26

Yeah, or or oil. You could do like um, you know, coddle oil too. I mean, um, but but he, I mean, he's a lot, a lot of different papers. Uh he showed some fascinating stuff. Um, so so we're really pushing uh omega-3 fatty acids, uh creatine, caffeine. It's probably the most well re uh researched ergogenic aid. I mean, you know, carbohydrate beverages when they were running and stuff, nothing fancy there. Um the the beta alanine we we talked about for the buffering capacity, and then beetroot juice for the nitric oxide.

Host 1:05:56

We we also a red beet mix in the morning, man, which seems to have helped. There's a lot of studies done on that stuff.

Nick Barringer 1:06:04

Yes, yeah. And then especially like you think about Ghanistan, like the mountains, altitude, um, uh nitric oxide. If any way to increase in nitroc nitric oxide at altitude, that's gonna help with performance.

Host 1:06:15

Super cool. You had to kind of change some of the architecture at the regimental D fac. What was that like? Because I remember you telling me when we podcast prep, like the last thing you want to do is you never want to take anything away from Rangers.

Nick Barringer 1:06:26

Yeah, no, it was it was great. And you know, there was a guy, uh a master learning at the time at Justin Seipel, who was just phenomenal. He was over there dining facility. And again, just being so fortuitous and linking up with him and him being so open to being like, hey, what do you want to do? Like, let's let's do it, right? That that that mentality. And so, you know, choice architecture, right? If you put the good things at the front of the line and put the not so good things at the back of the line, naturally people fill up with the good things and they don't, you know, so you're not you're not taking away, you're not, you know. Um, and so that was a lot, a lot, a lot of fruits, a lot of vegetables. A lot of good protein sources and having those out there. Um, you know, the the famous story that I get beat up over is like the tater tot thing. Because I was, I was very, you know, I was going, hey, I was I was I wanted to be extreme. I wanted to get this as tight as possible. So I was like, hey, pull out all the fryers and let's put in air fryers, just air fryers. And probably should have stopped there. But then I was like, yeah, instead of tater tots, which a lot of rangers loved, let's go sweet potato tater tots. And at the same time, we're gonna stop frying them. We're gonna only do them in the air fryer. And that combination almost did me in. Oh, really? What happened to our riot? Well, no, well, so I was smart, I was, I was strategic. I did all this, and then I did a deployment to Afghanistan, like right away. So I was gone, right? So I was gone, and uh, you know, I'm I'm doing a rotator, I'm getting a rotator back, and you know, one of the first sergeants from Third Ranger Battalion's on it, and we hadn't met, and he's like, Oh, you know, hey sir, what do you do? And I'm like, Oh, I'm the dietitian or whatever, like that. You know, and he had smiled when he asked me, and his face just starts to change. He's like, You're the motherfucker who took away the tater tox. And I was like, This is gonna be an awkward ride back, but uh, but yeah, it was it was they they they were upset about that. So we eventually brought back the regular tater top.

Host 1:08:16

That's funny, dude. Um, what kind of supplements did you find that the Rangers were taking that you thought were dangerous?

Nick Barringer 1:08:22

Uh I remember you mentioned when we were podcast prepping, like going through dudes' wall lockers and well, well, what we found is it was it was deployed, and it was the, you know, again, hopefully the theme of this, one of the big themes is collaboration. Um, in that one of the other medical providers, the the surgeon at the time had been seeing guys come in with elevated liver enzymes. And then he was kind of curious and saw they all were taking, you know, they were taking supplements, but not all the same supplements. So he reached out to me. I was in a rack with time and was like, hey man, this is what I'm seeing. Can you help me like look into this? Do you know anything? What do you know? And so I started investigating, and what I found is they were all taking different supplements, but it all had the same active ingredient. And uh it was it was something called super draw. And it was basically a weak oral anabolic steroid that, you know, it was being marketed as a oh back then, man. Yeah, it was the wild west. It was a dial four and the water.

Host 1:09:19

Right, right.

Nick Barringer 1:09:20

It was, it was, it was the wild west. So it really wasn't on the ranger, like they didn't know any better. Um, and so, you know, but the thing was is companies would call it all these different things, so it was hard to depend down what was causing it because you would come in and you're taking like, you know, caged XO and I'm taking Jack 3D. And so it's like, oh, well, they're taking two different things. But as you know, you know, probably out of supplements is like you can call it whatever you want to, like a lot of the times that name's trademarked, but the ingredient on the back end what matters. And so when I started tracking all that down, I'm like, oh, this is all the same chemical compound. And so once we did that, we figured out what it was, and I was able to educate people on it and like why that was happening. And we even did a, you know, at the time, uh Soma Special Operations Medical Association. Me and that uh surgeon did a uh presentation on it just to kind of educate because yeah, you could just, you know, you're ordering those things off Amazon. Nobody knew better.

Host 1:10:13

So um you had a previous deployment before, and then you know deploying with the regiment. How are those deploy deployments uh different and kind of what was your roll down range versus you know back at headquarters?

Nick Barringer 1:10:24

Yeah, well, I mean, one, it was just it's just like it it's so night and day in terms of so you so you deploy with the cash at the time, and everything's a big deal. Like travel, air travel, like to coordinate to to get on an aircraft to go from one location to the other. It's like it's like you're moving mountains almost, it feels like that. And then like you get to range, and it's like taking a taxi. You know, it's like, oh, there's a there's a, you know, I I remember my first deployment with them was was back in Iraq. So it was very kind of surreal, you know, being back there from from that other side. And I remember, you know, we were there was something going on in Baghdad we're gonna do, and I wanted to like, I I like asked my boss, like, hey, I know the two dietitians at the hospital. Can we swing by? And he happened to know the physical therapist. I was with Danny McMillan. And he's like, Yeah, let's let's just like we'll get we'll go by the cash and tell them hello, you know, whatever. And like, we just like hopped on like a British Puma or British aircraft, just caught, you know, hitched a ride and just like landed and walked over and said hello and whatever, and then like went back. So like the freedom of movement was was just mind-blowing, you know, from a big army medical guy. Um but then obviously, you know, what uh they were doing uh was very, very serious business. So so that was, you know, it them being at the tip of the spear and and you know, being engaged like night after night, like like that was very eye-opening of like wow, this is what these guys do. And and again, um, not that I didn't take like nutrition and everything like as serious as possible, but it really made it drive in like what it made me really think, okay, what it what possible advantage could I give them, right? That could maybe help them come home. Um, and what we did while we're there is we would just go out to where they were at because we found when you're deployed, it's like you're either doing the mission or you have downtime. And so it was more convenient for rangers to get nutrition training, do nutrition counseling, do the raw training, do all that when they were downrange than they were stateside. And so that's that's what we did. So I just traveled around and did a lot of nutrition consults and did a lot of training.

Host 1:12:28

I know the unit has, you know, they're a very forward-thinking um unit as well. Did you did they have something similar to this, like in the unit? Do they have their own dietitian in the unit? And did you like interact with those guys?

Nick Barringer 1:12:38

And different different groups have their yeah, their dietitian. I mean, around I'm gonna hopefully get my date, somebody's gonna be like, Oh, it was this date. But I think it was like 2009, 2010, like Thor 3 stood up. Um, and once that happened, they started hiring civilian dietitians for the different special operation um groups. But I mean, really, you know, the the group to get credit for our human performance is is the SEALs. Like that's who we that's who we went to and like consult with. I mean, they were both they were before anybody. I mean, that they were they they were doing this.

Host 1:13:13

Um, were you were you learning from them?

Nick Barringer 1:13:15

Yeah, we we talked to to a lot of their guys. I mean, that was part of the groups we talked to. I mean, the other thing we did with with Raw that was really cool was we're like, all right, what are the best people in the world like doing? So, you know, we we talked to the SEALs to see what those those uh you know folks were doing and how they they practiced, which was really good too, because they had a population kind of you know similar to ours. But then we went out to the Olympic Training Center. What do they do? What do they, you know, what are they they doing? How do you do things? Um, we went to the University of Georgia. I still knew the strength coach at the time that paid off. We went everything they do, they were, you know, and what was cool about like you know, being army or whatever, everybody was like, why we we weren't competition, we weren't so organizations, performance organizations were very open and would show us all the things and you know we could go.

Host 1:14:01

Were you dialing in some of the requirements based on like different mission, different unit missions within the range regiment, or was it just kind of it was that too hard and you needed to make something that was kind of really good, but could still be applicable across the regiment?

Nick Barringer 1:14:16

It was it was more that it was it was more genetic. I would get chances to dial things in. Maybe if I was like downrange and they're like, hey, we got this going on. How would you how would you hydrate or do for that? Or you know, guys going to certain, you know, you know, assessments or selections, like working with me about nutrition and be like, okay, now I know this, let me let me add that. But I would say like the basic raw stuff was very like general, right? The the you know, just just the basics you could kind of scale up or down.

Host 1:14:42

Did you guys design specific workouts? Um could guys come and reach out to you for like specific diet plans or oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Barringer 1:14:50

So so I I could do uh specific diet plans that we would do that. We we did workouts and for a while there, um, we did like the the you know, the raw like workout of the week or day, you know, we would we would put those those out because you know, you gotta think at the time CrossFit was like the hotness. This is like it was the religion, yeah. Yeah, prime CrossFit time. And so again, we would structure smart CrossFit workouts that weren't getting injured. You know, like one of the basic things we talk in like programming, I always remember, I'd be like, All right, do your most complicated movement first. And then as you get fatigued, if you're doing this in a circuit, the movements should get dumber and dumber. Yeah. And so I remember like structuring a program for one time to show a guy, I was like, Yeah, you know, we're gonna do squats, da-da-da. And we ended up on a row. Like that was like the last exercise in the circuit. And I'm like, why? Because you're gonna be hard to hurt yourself on that rower, you know. Whereas on the squats, if you do that, so just those basic, like little tweaks, we'd always be like, All right, like you shouldn't be breathing hard and doing overhead squats because your body has to choose between stabilization and breathing, it's gonna choose breathing, you know. So just little things like that.

Host 1:16:01

Yeah, I used to watch those guys doing those kipping pull-ups, man, and you you know, that rotation on the shoulder. And I couldn't just help but watch it.

Nick Barringer 1:16:08

Like, it's like putting your shoulder in a Kimura, right?

Host 1:16:10

Every time, like a lot of and so many of those dudes were getting injured. Yeah. Um, were you guys seeing that in the regiment? I was like, CrossFit was really gaining.

Nick Barringer 1:16:16

There were yes, you you would see uh, you know, guys. I mean, there was a joke, there was one big, big strong ranger we had who could basically do anything. He's like bulletproof, but he got so many people hurt training with him that the physical therapist threatened to like make him like a code, like just put his name down for the injury because you know, he could do things that other people couldn't. So people would think they could do it. Um, so so we would see some of those injuries. Um, I will say though, some of the like smartest guys, when we talked about those um, you know, kind of people who were raw advocates. I mean, there was like one guy who's like really, really into CrossFit, but he was really sharp and he was smart about how he did it and he was really fit and he could, you know, and so I mean CrossFit was hard and it produced a lot of athletes, but I think what happened is it, and I wasn't a CrossFit guy, so don't kill me if I get this wrong, all you CrossFit Nazis.

Host 1:17:05

But you know, it was one of those things that grew very rapidly. And what I would hear from friends is it really depend on, you know, the box that you went to and oh yeah, yeah, you know, what how well they were training people on the compound movements versus you know just going out there and it's a competition, you're not getting a lot of instruction, especially some of new starting CrossFit.

Nick Barringer 1:17:21

Go fast, go hard. Yeah, no, no. It's it, I mean, I was, you know, my wife did did CrossFit and she she liked it and whatever. I've I've never been, I've just always kind of trained myself, but like we were lucky when I was in Natick, like Ben Bergeron's, like New England cross. Like, I never worried about her get getting hurt there. Yeah, yeah. Like I was like, Yeah, you're you're going, you're getting that guy. But she has worked out at other places where I'm like, you know, you know, she's like, oh, my knees sore. And it's like, what did you do yesterday? Wall balls. What were you doing the day before? Some squatting move. It was like they had done squatting movements for like four days straight, like the exact same movement pattern. I'm like, huh, that's interesting.

Host 1:17:55

Maybe change that up. Yeah, where'd you get your knee hurts? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Best Ranger competition. Did you go did you ever have any involvement with that while you were there?

Nick Barringer 1:18:02

We we did. We we did. We we did a lot of the testing for that. And we luckily, you know, when we were there, um, the the group, like we had a uh an 07, a winning team. And since then, I mean it it was exciting because we were just getting involved and and doing that.

Host 1:18:15

Um you had a general on the one of the teams?

Nick Barringer 1:18:18

No, oh I think I said 07. Oh, oh, oh, oh, pardon me. Oh the year 07. Uh oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, year year 07, I believe, is like when we first kind of got involved in the team, we they ended up having the the winning team. Um, so it was it was cool. Um, but yeah, it was it was great like seeing that, and I mean, you know, obviously pushing yourself to limits. And then what's kind of really, really been cool since then is the guy over the Raw program, Nick O'Brien, he's just producing monsters, like just producing absolute monsters. Like you look at like how often Regiment now wins or or has top five guys, and you know, Nick, and he might have it out there kind of public too. Like, I've seen some of the numbers. Maybe it was last year he sent me like of like what the average ruck times and five miles for like their BRC competitors are. It's it's it's insane.

Host 1:19:09

Do you uh did the I mean obviously the program didn't stay stagnant when you left? Did it continue to improve? And that's what you and I were talking about last night. Like, it's a kind of a cool time to be alive as science and medicine have kind of you know really made leaps and bounds on, you know, we're gonna get to the point where we talk about your gum and one of the ingredients in your gum, something I'm not even aware of. But I can tell you, you know, and look, man, I'm not pushing this gum, I don't get anything out of it, but you know, I've been chewing it and I've noticed like it's I'm I'm steady the whole time. And that was one of the things that you talked about. What um, what other kind of things did you see, you know, continue uh as far as maybe diets, yeah, whether it's diet nutrition supplements, um, you know, that continued to get better uh even after you left.

Nick Barringer 1:19:55

No, I mean the biggest thing, so you know, as I was at Ranger Regiment, again, you know, when we were doing the Raw program, we were like borrowed manpower from the Army. Um uh, you know, all you know, the budgeting, all like that, like again, thank thank goodness that we had great leaders like Rich Clark who were able to buy me bod pods to do body composition and do things. But you know, it was coming out of regiments, normal funds to buy exercise equipment and build all those things. Um, but then Thor 3, tactical human optimization, rapid reconditioning and recovery, I think it was, you know, uh got stood up in special operations. And then there was like dollars getting getting you know put behind it to hire strength coaches and things um like that. So, you know, we were able to hire a guy, uh Dr. Travis Harvey, um out of West Point, who was great. It really helped, you know, kind of while I was there, like um solidify the raw program, looking at data, looking at metrics, all like that. And then he left and went down to SOCOM. And then they they you know, they hit a home run. They got this guy like Nick O'Brien, who I still think is one of the like, I know a lot of strength coaches in soft, but I mean Nick's one of the best who you don't hear about because he doesn't he just does his thing. He's not gonna, you know, you're not you're probably not gonna get nick on a podcast. Uh you're gonna be hard pressed to get him on a stage to to talk about something or whatever. Um, but what he's gonna do is he blends um strength conditioning with like well, I should say strength with conditioning, like in a true format where you're gonna get the strongest and like fittest. Because one of the challenges when they first stood up thorough three, I'll go back a step, was they were getting all these collegiate strength coaches who were coming from football. It's a different sport, man. Oh yeah. Like, and they were kind of they were out of shape, they were big, and they're just like, oh, just lift heavy. And as you know, that like that doesn't work. Not when you're flowing through a house or walking around. Right, right. And so where Nick like really was was unique in terms of like, you know, he's he's lean, he's wiry, but you know, he'll deadlift 400 pounds and then go run uh, you know, a 12-minute, you know, 13-minute two mile. Like like he right, you know, he can he can put those, and so he can program those together without overtraining and stuff. And so really under that, he's he's created these these monsters. Um, and now they have dietitians, they have civilian dietitians there, which gives them consistency. They have um Megan Rippinger, so they just got their uh their second active duty dietitian. It took some while uh took them a while. So she's there uh running the program. Um, and then you know, Potif as a whole preservation of the force, what family and fitness out at SOCOM. They've they've really invested and grown. And so like that program has just really grown and blossomed and is now great, um, which transitions to the army kind of HGF.

Host 1:22:46

Were you guys um were you guys focusing on recovery at all back then? Because I think we've, you know, obviously the science has come around a lot about recovery, especially sleep. We're gonna talk about sleep heavily here in a little bit. But were you guys seeing those things back then?

Nick Barringer 1:22:59

Or yeah, I mean Rob Monts, our OT, was talking about slate. He was talking about sleep before it was cool, you know, and uh he talked a lot about it. Um, and then, you know, we we had the compression stuff and you know, pushing that and uh different things. And then like there's a guy, uh Dave Meyer, who's a physical therapist, and I think he still works there. To this day, he does a pool workout with injured rangers that I think is like the greatest pool workout ever. I would go and do it just because it's great. Like you would get conditioned, but you're not beat up. But he would do it with guys, guys will get hurt running. They would be with Dave like eight to 12 weeks just doing pool stuff, and it's like a lot of run, it's not swimming, it's like a lot of different movements in the pool. They would come back running faster after not running for like eight weeks. It's the wildest thing.

Host 1:23:45

Yeah, I got assigned a special operations command in South America for a couple months, three, four months. And I there I was living at this at a hotel, and I had there was a Navy SEAL. He was like, Yeah, have you done a pool workout? And I'm like, dip, bro, I'm it's nothing. He designed a pool workout that I did at a hotel, and I've never been so smoked. I mean, you know, working out in a pool, um, it doesn't get the credit it deserves.

Nick Barringer 1:24:06

No, it well, and and what you'll appreciate too is like what I loved about it is it was a day that I could go, I could get smoked, but then I didn't feel like I'd like been in the grinder the next day. Like I, you know, I felt recovered because you're not getting that pounding like in the pool. Impact, yeah. Yeah, like you do when you're when you're running.

Host 1:24:23

So we did a lot of pool workouts, me and the kids during COVID, man. You know, when they were shutting everything down, you know, Laird Hamilton's got, you know, uh some wild programs that you you can do. If you guys are ever looking for something uh, you know, you want to do something different, go look up Laird Hamilton's pool workouts, dude. Yeah, you'll smoke yourself. Um there's another Marine guy, I can't think of his name. It's got a unique name. That's they've got like they've designed this whole underwater sport network. Um super cool. So you did five years at the regiment. Any any other wild stories I I didn't ask about or anything that was really kind of imprinted on you during your time there?

Nick Barringer 1:24:57

No, it was it was just it was such a gift, man. Like it was a gift early in my career. And and that, you know, it well, I should say it was a gift and a curse because it was early in my career because I had just made captain when I got to Ranger Regiment. And so then, you know, I'm there five years, and then it's like I'm planning on doing 20 and I leave. And I'm like, man, I just that was I just I was at the pinnacle, you know. That was the pinnacle of the thing. There was there was a little bit of like depression like about leaving it. Um, but but it was it was it's such an honor. I can't say enough great things about the unit, and then the the other piece of like I've met some famous people, I don't get starstruck, but like I was starstruck by like the guys there, not to you know sound cheesy, but because you know they were they were like heroes, man. They were you know guys out there doing the thing, and and uh so so to me, just to be part of that history is like even though I was a dietitian, it is awesome.

Host 1:25:48

Yeah, we can see it kind of in your your gum brand and everything. It's cool. It leaves a it leaves an imprint, I'm sure. Um, you know, what why did you leave and and what was that decision?

Nick Barringer 1:25:57

Yeah, you know, it um it was time. No, it was so you know, you you hit a point military-wise, you gotta move. And especially on the officer side, yeah. On the officer side. And I had been eyeing this long-term health education and training. I knew I wanted to go get my doctorate. Again, credit to Danny McMillan. Danny McMillan had his doctorate, and so he had kind of coached me and and guided me through that. So I was like, hey, I want to be like Danny, I want to go get my doctorate. And then Russ Cotwall, the regimental surgeon, had gone to AM and he's like, hey, I'll write you a letter of recommendation anywhere you go, as long as it's Texas AM.

Host 1:26:32

And uh good school too, bro.

Nick Barringer 1:26:34

Well, well, then I mean, like, again, like all like fortune, right? So there's a guy, Dr. Rick Kreider, who is like one of the main, you know, leaders in um kind of exercise, sport, nutrition. And he had been at Baylor. And so the guy, Dr. Travis Harvey, we had hired, I'd worked with, and you know, talked great things about Dr. Kreider. He had just left Baylor and went to AM. So, so it was like everything. Like, you know, I had my regimental surgeon being like, all right, you need to go to AM. The guy I wanted to study under had just went to AM. Like it was, you know, so like all roads uh led to the Aggie. So there was there was really there was no other school. It was really cool.

Host 1:27:12

Yeah, it wasn't until you and I were talking, and probably because I wasn't an officer either, but I I mean I didn't know the army would go pay you to get your PhD. So how how cool is that? It was a three-year program, right?

Nick Barringer 1:28:00

It it's unbelievable. It's one of the best programs uh in the military. If you're medical, you can do long-term, you know, health education training, do it. Um, it's competitive. You know, you got to put together your packet and um, you know, show you can get selected from a school, uh do the GRE, do all those those things. But if you get selected, I mean, what a gift.

Host 1:28:21

Yeah, cool. I mean, but it but it's it's also really cool to hear that DOD's investing in their their workforce, right? Because it's you know, they're they're still gonna get something out of you.

Nick Barringer 1:28:31

Um you owe two years for every one year. Oh, really? Yes. And then it for us, for the dietitians, like there's assignments we need PhDs, and so then you're gonna be in those assignments. You're you're gonna get utilized. The military is gonna get their money's worth, but but it's but it's great, it's a win-win.

Host 1:28:47

Yeah, why Dr. Kreider? What's what made you uh really want to stutter study under him specifically?

Nick Barringer 1:28:54

Because of the work he had done with with creatine, he was one of those names that as a dietitian and doing performance nutrition, you would see like his papers. It's like Kreider. Um, and then he also had a guy who worked with him, um, the late great uh Dr. Mike Greenwood, who had also done a lot of stuff. And so he was also with with Kreider at AM to include um God, uh Chris Rasmussen, who is his lab, the his lab guy at Baylor, and I think at Memphis as well, also followed AM. So it's like this group was like the group that you would you would see those names. And um, so go be a part of that was was just exciting. So you got your actual doctorate in and No, kinesiology. And so that was a little different too, because you know, again, people are like, well, why aren't you getting your doctorate in nutrition? We should do nutrition. And so I explained to him, I'm like, well, if you're going to do at the time, there wasn't a lot of performance nutrition programs. And Kreider ran the exercise sport nutrition lab in the name. And I'm like, although it's kinesiology, it's kinesiology along with like how supplementation impacts physiology, which is really what we need to get after in the military and things like that. So I kind of sold them on, okay, I'm going to go get a kinesiology degree, but it's it's focused on this exercise kind of sport nutrition.

Host 1:30:14

Yeah, and I can imagine that just makes you a powerhouse having, you know, both a nutrition background and you know a sports science background can just really give you the opportunity to dial in and help and kind of shape and shift people's mindset on nutrition and training at the same time, which is you know, we all know now those are so co-aligned.

Nick Barringer 1:30:34

It was it was great because it made me take, you know, I I I knew nutrition. So you can certainly take more nutrition courses. You can always learn about nutrition. But then I was learning about like cardiac exercise physiology and other things that I that we hadn't really touched on in my nutrition degree. So that was what was really nice about being at AM is like getting exposed to that.

Host 1:30:52

This is kind of when your creatine like obsession began. Uh, what what really drew you to the creatine research?

Nick Barringer 1:30:58

You know, it all started as creatine, probably like a lot of uh mid 40 folks listening to this is like high school, right? Creatine kind of came on the scene. It's this is like super supplement. Um, and I remember taking it and like gaining weight and getting stronger. And oh, why is that? You know, and and you read about it and and you follow it. And, you know, the research just kind of over the years have gotten better and better. And so, you know, again, Dr. Krider was at the forefront in in America on on doing that research. And, you know, and he'd done other dietary supplements as well. So I I just that that was just like, all right, this is the place to do it.

Host 1:31:33

Yeah, I'm gonna we're gonna dive into creatine here in just one more second. What was that transition to PhD life from the regimental life and and that culture shock? You're going to, you know, basically, you know, super soldier school to now you're back in college with, you know, a lot of younger kids.

Nick Barringer 1:31:47

And yeah, you know, it was just for the time in my life, it was challenging. I'm I'm not gonna lie, like adjusting back to school um a little bit. Um, but it was, you know, once once I found my rhythm, I would say that like that first semester was a little rough, like, okay, you know, but then once I found my rhythm, it was it was great. Um, and and the other good piece about like Dr. Kreider's lab was like the lab mates were were awesome. They were they were fun. And I had this this guy, uh, you know, uh Jeremy Carter, who we both became uh doctoral students together, and then he later like went and joined the Marines and and went, you know, so but uh but it was it was just great, like with with guys like that, because they were, you know, they were curious. So he'd ask, I would ask about he would help me with a lot of the classes because he had just gone like straight through school. Like so he had gone from bachelor's to master's where I had a big break. And so helping me study and prep and all like that. And then, you know, he would ask me about ranger regiment or you know, the army and and so kind of that back and forth. So it was a good time.

Host 1:32:51

Did you interact at all with the core cadets on on or were you just mainly just straight up a little bit?

Nick Barringer 1:32:56

I did like a nutrition class and you know for him and things, but it was I I wasn't there to to do ROTC or anything.

Host 1:33:02

Yeah, so it was what uh what did you do on your summers when you didn't you have school? You took school year-round?

Nick Barringer 1:33:07

Yeah, so so just so people understand, most PhD programs take five years. Oh they take five years, and that was one of the things with going to do health that you I had to talk to a lot of people, and there were some programs that'll be like, we're not gonna get you out in faster in five years. And it's like, okay, can't do it. Um, because a death nail kind of for your career is if the army sends you to school to get your doctorate in three years, you don't get in three years, you know, that it's it's it's not a good look. Um, so I'm taking classes. Like I'm I'm I'm constantly taking classes or working on your research or in the lab.

Host 1:33:39

What was your dissertation about, or you know, what research did you do? Any any major finding type stuff?

Nick Barringer 1:33:44

Yeah. So, you know, at the time, again, so I was in school 2012, 2015. So when I first got there, 2012, like suicides were an issue. There was the guy, the guy, you know, uh a ranger who I knew really well, had, you know, uh committed suicide and stuff. And so that kind of had stuck with me. And um I was like, you know, kind of like, well, what can I do? Like, like, you know, you know, you feel kind of helpless. You're like, well, what can I do? And so remembering uh Doc uh Lewis's work with omega-3 fatty acids, where he had shown uh it's a really cool study if people want to look it up, or we could put it in the show notes. Um, he took like 800 uh service members who had committed suicide versus a matched 800 service members who had not, and looked at docahexanoic acid. So that's the the so omega-3s, you have EPA, echasapino, echasapotinoic acid, and DHA, docahexanoic acid. So EPA and DHA. And DHA really seems to be important for the brain. Your brain's made up a lot of it. And what he looked at was DHA in the blood levels, and he found those in like the lowest quartile, so those with the lowest uh DHA levels were like 64% more likely to be in the suicide group.

Host 1:34:50

Oh, wow.

Nick Barringer 1:34:50

And that's without, you know, all the other lifestyle factors. And so, you know, again, and then I started looking at other like like research in like um, you know, countries, and the countries that take in omega-3s tend to have less depression, less suicide. The outlier, Japan. That could be culture, that could be, you know, um, but you look at like a lot of the Norwegian countries and things like that. So that kind of got me going down that road. And I stayed in contact with him and he was very supportive. Um, so I was I was interested in omega-3s. I was also interested, kind of related to that was like vitamin D. So I put together this plan where I couldn't look at depression because that would be a clinical diagnosis. But I used the PHQ nine, which was this pace patient healthcare questionnaire that you use for depression, and I called it mood. I'm looking at your mood, you know, Asher, of like whether you're you're in a bad, you know, not a good mood, a depressed mood or whatever mood. I'm not, I couldn't diagnose you because that brings up a whole other thing. And then I took blood samples and I looked at omega-3 and vitamin D. And then I also looked at fitness because uh physical fitness has a lot to do with because exercise and things.

Host 1:36:00

And so I kind of You talk about the correlation with like uh physical exercise with mental health. Yes. Oh, yeah. Big deal. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Barringer 1:36:06

So so we know that's tight. So I knew all those things. And so I I had at the time their their fitness scores, they they took a fitness test, I drew blood, we looked at omega-3 vitamin D, um, um, and then they did this, you know, this questionnaire to look at the depressed mood. And we were looking at these other variables and and how that compares. Oh, and then physical activity, they're self-reported, like how active they were and things. And so, you know, uh, we basically kind of created this algorithm that we could predict like who was depressed based off those numbers, um, you know, with with about over 70% accuracy. And and what was exciting about that was it was not a questionnaire or not a person coming to you and saying, I'm depressed, because you know that guys don't do that. Like they just don't, like, especially in special operations, like they're not gonna say anything, they're just gonna, you know, do do the deed. And and so what I was trying to find was kind of a silent indicator that you could get these these labs on these people, you have their fitness data, you know, and you could say, okay, this person's at risk, so you could get them extra help.

Host 1:37:13

Um, so so that was that was where were you uh getting your test cases from? Or I mean Fort Hood. Oh, really? So you you went to like a military installation?

Nick Barringer 1:37:20

Yeah, yeah, that was important. Yeah, and then again, like this is where it was it was a pain in the ass, but it was it was worth it because you know, you got to go through an institutional review board because I was using service members, I had to go through the armies and AM's, which was an extra because you know, uh, you know, Dr. Kreider and probably looking out my best friend interest is like, why don't you use the core of cadets? And I was just like, they're not the same. Yeah, I know. They're not that like like one of the the people in my uh survey, he had been deployed five times. You know, you know, you need I needed that to see that that kind of that stress and that background and that, you know, I didn't need some college kids who maybe the core cadets, the most stressful thing they've had in their life, right? Um, so we did, you know, service members for first cab division, um, and you know, a hundred of them. And and so, you know, we we, you know, found some interesting results and we published it and uh, you know, what was kind of the bulk of your finding, if you're if you could summarize it in a little bit. Yeah, it was it was that there is a relationship between, you know, your physical activity, your physical fitness, um, and your omega-3 and vitamin D score, you know, levels and and you know, whether you reported a depressed mood or not. And that was that was the biggest, you know, finding. And you could still use that. I I think that could still be used as a screener. Nobody picked it up and did, but um, I I think there's there's more threads to pull on, uh, especially the fact that um, and I'm not a psychologist and I really I realize there's so many factors that go into suicide, but but I've always kind of been of the mindset of saying we're doing suicide prevention is not like the best way to go about it. It's more of like how can we make these people as physiologically resilient as possible, and then it sorts itself. Yes, you're gonna have mental health. Yes, there's a whole other component, but besides just like over-indexing on that, why don't we do the other things that we know is gonna make them more resilient?

Host 1:39:12

Yeah. Well, it's like when you go see a psychiatrist, uh, they're not asking you what you're eating, bro. Right.

Nick Barringer 1:39:18

Or what you're putting in your body, or exercise or like all like all those things. And I mean, there was just a paper. I haven't got to read it yet. It's it's on my uh my laptop I just pulled up that is like this big like umbrella review of of exercise and like it beat a lot of depress like depressants. I was able to skim it, you know, that you're getting prescribed, right? So, like, you know, uh, you know, exercise might you know beat what Zoloff in a trial or whatever. And and and so again, it's not I I feel like we're not looking at that. We're we're we're focusing so much on the mental health thing, which again we we should, but I I I think if we're missing the external factors, man. Right, right. If we really want to move the needles, like let's make people as healthy and as fit and as resilient as possible. Like, let's just let's focus on that. Yeah, what it what it what if even the marketing I think would be a little better than saying suicide prevention. I don't I don't like that term. I it's just to me, it's like we're already like the problem's already there.

Host 1:40:13

Yep.

Nick Barringer 1:40:14

Um, and I'm not saying you're ignoring it, you're just saying like no.

Host 1:40:16

Well, it's more problems-based than solution-oriented in my opinion. Um, what kind of uh things were you seeing on the vitamin D and um you know the DHA side as far as dosages were that were you know that were important where you saw maybe improvement or because I think that's I'm always trying to find, you know, give solutions and you're a great person to have on.

Nick Barringer 1:40:36

Yeah, you know, for for both, I love blood tests. I'm a huge blood test fan. Uh when when you come to me, I'm gonna, you know, get you to do blood tests because it's objective data, right? Um, so get you know, vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin. You need to respect it. It can build up the toxic levels, which can cause um, you know, your body to calcify tissues that shouldn't calcify. With that being said, most people can get away 2,000 to 5,000 IUs will cover the basis for most people. But why I like to say get it tested is if you were in the tank, if you were at like, you know, 10 nanograms per deciliter, you are deficient, deficient. Um, you might need 50,000 IUs, right? You might need a, you know, a higher dose, but you wouldn't know that unless you had the blood test. And the blood test is relatively cheap. Very rarely you're gonna have somebody push back. So any service member or any, you know, person when you go to your physician, just ask for it if they're not doing it. You know, 25 OHD, get it. Um also D3. This is another thing I'm gonna tell on the Army. I I I had checked recently, like within the last like year or so, looked at the formulary. Half the hospitals are prescribing D2, which will do nothing for you.

Host 1:41:49

Really?

Nick Barringer 1:41:50

So if you go on the pharmacy and uh any providers that maybe listen to this that are at DOD facilities, go do it. Go go to the pharmacy and see what they prescribe for vitamin D deficiency. And a lot of them will do D2, not D3. Probably because somebody ordering it wasn't thinking they're like, oh, vitamin D. It's really, really cheap, you know, and get it. But no, you need D3.

Host 1:42:12

What's the I I've seen a lot of it, um, I can't remember the the research on it, but um the D3, K2 level.

Nick Barringer 1:42:18

Yes, so so the with the K2 is very important, like it it helps make sure like kind of the the vitamin D is gonna do what it needs to do within the body. And that calcification issue, there's even some uh theory, I think it was like in a Hollick paper or whatever, that if you have enough K2 on board, you'll you'll never kind of OD on vitamin D. Don't put that to the test, people. But I'm just like giving you, you know, that that's kind of like that.

Host 1:42:43

But I think this podcast gives people enough to go research on their own.

Nick Barringer 1:42:47

Yeah, yeah. So so there is that. And then for the for the warfighter, I'll say this. So at one point, I was the guy that reviewed MREs, like the vitamins, minerals. And one of the things the MREs, it's no secret, you don't get your daily value is vitamin K. Now, why is that important? What do you need to clot if you get shot? Vitamin K. Now, I didn't know that. Will you go? Uh, you know, the MREs are only supposed to be used for 21 days.

Host 1:43:15

We just had a guy on front that was at Restrepo in Afghanistan and they ate him for 16 months, man. He ate 1200 MREs.

Nick Barringer 1:43:22

So that would be a guy, I would I would worry about vitamin K, right? Right. So, so I think there are those those situations, and so it needs to be addressed. Um, I don't know what combat feeding is doing right now. There's some great leaders at combat feeding, but but that's definitely something that you know, how to get greens to guys, and that's something we can talk about later. Like I looked at is like whether it's microgreens, you know, you could you could powder on a cop it outpost or whatever. But but that is an issue because if if you just have to do those kind of uh processed foods that are out there, they're very low in vitamin K. And so it would take a while, um, you know, probably a few months, but eventually if your K drops low enough, I would worry that okay, now you get shot, besides not being optimal, but yeah, you get shot like with that that clotting factor.

Host 1:44:07

I never even considered that.

Nick Barringer 1:44:09

Yeah.

Host 1:44:09

Um, yeah, and and and blood tests too. I mean, even if you don't even want to go to your doctor, I mean, I just ordered one from a company called Rhythm. I I get no affiliation. I think they're actually Australian, but I don't know, it was like 70 bucks, man, and you can get all kinds of different lab tests done. They ship it to your door, you do it at your house, and you they you can ship it from your house. So there's really no excuse, man, um, to get your stuff checked. I mean, obviously, you want to go see a doctor. Yeah, uh, that's the preference.

Nick Barringer 1:44:33

Well, is it that dried blood spot test? So you're putting it on a card and shipping it out?

Host 1:44:37

No, man, you actually uh you fill a blood vial. So you it goes on your arm, you click the button, it fills a vial, um, yay big, and then you wrap the vial and you you literally ship your blood off and you have your results, I think of I don't know, it's like 96 hours.

Nick Barringer 1:44:49

Yeah, no, there's so many different ways to get it. And I mean, that that's great. Like, like it what's nice with uh the vitamin D and the omega 3s is they can be used by a dried blood spot test. So it's literally a finger prick, and you just dot on a card and ship it off and you can get your life test.

Host 1:45:05

Um and then what about for um DHA?

Nick Barringer 1:45:08

What what kind of um what you know Oh the dose, the EPA DHA, I do a combination of you know, two to three grams a day baseline. Now, if you're a you know, if we have any breachers listening to this, right, and you just did a breaching course, I would go and I could give you a protocol of, you know, like maybe start out at like eight grams a day and titrate down. I do that with my fighter. Okay, you just had a UFC fight, you know, you got hit in the head. Go high and then titrate down. Why is that? Um, because based off of again, uh Dr. Mike Lewis's work, that's you know, kind of when when an insult has been given to the brain. So, so think about like we worked out today, we did our legs, you know, you you work out your muscle. What do you want to eat typically? Well, well, protein, right? Like to build it up. Oh, you want to eat, yeah. But yeah, because it's made up of protein, right? So, so that so your brain has a lot of docahexanoic acid in it. So it's made up of it. So that's the building blocks. So whenever you get an injury to your brain, it seems that the brain uses and church through more DHA. So by having that on board, you can help the individual recover more quickly. And and he did, you know, it's it's hard to do that controlled. They've done a ton, like the animal research, if you look on DHA, is pristine. You take a mouse, you let it run through a maze, you time it, right? Does it so fast. Boom, you give it a brain injury. All of a sudden, it doesn't run through that maze as, you know, as well. Um, you you feed it, you you have a mouse that you fed omega-3 fatty acids, it recovers more quickly and is able to figure out through that maze. And you can't do that with humans, right? There's rules and stuff against that. But in cases like Tell that to the Russians. Yeah, yeah, they might. But but like, for instance, like the Sago Mine incident, if you remember when those miners got trapped and one guy survived. So mine collapsed on people. I think it was in Kentucky. Um, you know, it was like six, six guys died. One of them, there was one survivor they pulled out. Um, he was unresponsive, whatever. And he was able to walk out was Dr. Julian Bales of Concussion Fame, and Dr. Mike Lewis, I think, had helped with that case and all. They put like 20 grams of fish oil down that dude's feeding tube, like every day, to help because again, that brain to rebuild. And there's been studies with uh Texas Christian University where they gave their football players either a placebo or two grams a day throughout the football season. And one of the signs of kind of brain injury or insults, like the taw protein, and they track that over the year. And those that were taking the omega-3 had less tau protein. You know, it's hard to control for hits and all like that. But but there's another, I mean, my kid plays football. Yeah, no, I would definitely have an omega-3. Any any contact sport, I mean, even jumpers, right? If you're on an airborne status, you know, you you, you know, people forget you fall at 18 feet per second under canopy. You're hitting that ground hard. Um DHA, EPA, that's not the same as fish oil, right? Yeah, yeah. Fish oil, yeah, it's gonna combine it. But fish oil is one you you get you get what you pay for. Um, so you want to buy the the higher quality stuff and look and see how much EPA and DHA you're getting. For instance, if you're just getting fish oil and it's like 50 milligrams of EPA and 75 milligrams of DHA, it's not you'd have to take so you'd have to take the bottle. You want something that's gonna give you at least, you know, a gram in that serving size, I would look for, total of EPA and DHA. Um, a lot of different companies that do that. Now, that's fish oil, but you can also, if you're like, I can't do fish, whatever, algae. That's where the fish get it from. So there's algae oils, there's krill oils, you know, whatever's gonna give you. That's what I was gonna say. Is that is that good? That's good as well. Yeah, whatever's gonna give you that EPA and DHA, whatever.

Host 1:48:35

Yeah, and I've heard a couple different things, and maybe you can uh articulate this better or give me a better um an answer, but I've heard like not all fish oils are created the same, and the oil is either supposed to be dark or light, and that some fish oil isn't as good and can actually be harmful for you. Can you speak to that at all?

Nick Barringer 1:48:50

Um or yeah, I mean, uh, you know, it's it's all about getting a source sourcing. I mean, with all supplements, I'm like NSF certified, say for sport or a third-party testing. I I want that. You know, it's free of heavy metals and what's on the labels in the label, etc. Um, and then for fish oil, you know, you want a high quality, high dose. And there's a lot of different companies. Can I can I name companies? Or I don't know. I don't care. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can say like, and I no affiliation with these, like Nordic Naturals. They like they just make fish oil, they've been making fish oil for forever. There's a company, Parasol, that is associated with the omega-3 fatty acid kit.

Host 1:49:27

P-A-R-S-O-L?

Nick Barringer 1:49:29

Uh P-A-R-A-SOL. Okay. I'd say, and they make a good high-quality fish oil. I mean, uh Momentus makes a good high quality fish. There, there's a lot of good companies, but I would just say, like, look at the label, make sure you know you're getting a good dose of EPA DHA. And then the other piece of it is when you get it, do not keep fish oil in your truck. Ah. Do not, it's it's a it's a polyunsaturated fatty acid, so it's sensitive to heat, it's sensitive to light. I keep mine in my refrigerator.

Host 1:49:54

Great. Well, all great stuff. Stuff I I didn't know. I mean, I take yeah, I take that. Actually, I think the VA has me on a high quality fish oil because my heart.

Nick Barringer 1:50:02

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, so that's the interesting thing too. I didn't even talk about cardiovascular benefits. So Lovasa, which is a drug to lower triglycerides, it's just high, it's just pharmaceutical grade fish oil. So fish oils can lower triglycerides as well. Yeah, it's a more for cardiovascular. I think it's called Vicepa, is what I take. Yeah, so it might be, yeah.

Host 1:50:21

Yeah, yeah, super interesting. Um Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine. Yes. Um, what what did you research over there?

Nick Barringer 1:50:29

Yes. So, you know, one, uh, you make everybody aware, there is a lab outside of Natick, Massachusetts, so you know, near Boston, where the Army just does great, great work. And it's mostly civilians, like scientists who've been there for years. And then for like me, there's two dietitian slots. That's one of the people, you know, PhD slots, and I and I got to go there. Um, so you know, I I got to participate in in quite a few studies. The the study I ran and it was running was looking at energy expenditure at Marine Mountain Warfare out in Bridgeport. Uh was doing uh that study. I was able to help out uh with some other uh studies as well. Um, but but there, you know, one of the things I just again want to highlight because the scientists there, they are not uh marketers. You're not gonna find them on social media, you know, you're not gonna, they're just up there doing the work. And those guys and gals are brilliant and and they do phenomenal work. And so when I got there, one of the things I quickly realized was um I was the dumbest guy in the room. Like I I so where I try to be helpful was kind of like a facilitator. So I knew Army, and so I could understand that. idea enough that I could go to that commander and be like, sir, ma'am, this is why you need to do that study. This is how it's going to apply. Or when they design a study, if I'm like, I would ask them to so what? I'd be like, you know, if you're designed to say like Asher, how does this apply to Ranger? Or how does this apply to the the Racassans or whatever? And if you if you couldn't connect the dots or we couldn't connect the dots of like the warfighter, you know, my my lens was is it going to make them uh more lethal or harder to kill? If we can't paint that picture, nobody's going to want to do the study and I question if the study's worth doing.

Host 1:52:10

Was that do you think that was probably some of the biggest um the or the answers you were looking for the question uh to your point?

Nick Barringer 1:52:17

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean I mean that's that's ultimately that that was the lens I try to approach anything be like, all right, is this going to make, you know, again, you know, better at uh eliminating threats? Okay. If I can draw that line, then the study's worth doing. Or on the other hand of it, is it going to make them, you know, more resilient to disease or more less likely to get shot or whatever like that. Okay. Then this is, you know, uh like with the Marines, what we were trying to do is, you know, optimize kind of fueling in the in the mountains. And it was challenging. And I'll tell you, it opened my eyes to winter warfare. Holy smokes. It's it's it's uh you know it it requires a lot of energy um and uh it's it's challenging like in in terms of equipment everything. I mean while I was up there it snowed so bad it shut down. Think about that.

Host 1:53:08

Winter warfare the snow shut it down you know like it's so any studies that surprised you or any findings that completely changed any any thought process or patterns you were you were having before you got there?

Nick Barringer 1:53:19

I mean I'm always fascinated with like the the energy expenditure gap of you know it's it's really hard to close like when warfighters really get going hard like doing the tasks or doing the thing it's like you you're it's a challenge to get them to eat enough. And then oh okay I I got a good study that you know it wasn't mine it was it was Dr. Lee Margolis that you know a ration given isn't always a ration consumed. So so Lee, he's another one of those brilliant scientists up there did a study uh in Norway out in their you know winter training like who does better winter training than Norway and they're burning a ton of calories out there. And so he saw they were in a caloric deficit and this is what the rations were providing. So he's like all right I'm just gonna give them like some bars and some supplements to supplement that redo the test and we'll close that energy gap, better performance, better thing this will be done right when he redid the test, guess what the guys did? They just ate the bars and the snacks and they didn't eat their rations. Oh dude and they were still in a deficit so so it's still then it's like oh man these guys you know that they they get a vote and then I think that was lack of education on their part or potentially and then you know there's there there's challenges I mean one of the things I saw at Marine Mountain Warfare, I saw guys more dehydrated than I ever saw at Fort Benning during the heat. And I what what I figured out was okay how do you get how are those Marines getting water they got to go outside their tent they got to take snow they got to put on a jet bowl they got to melt it they got to pour it in their thing it's effort it's all these other things and you get tired you get you get lazy. And so those guys I mean their urine we were collecting their urine it was like almost gelatinous we're like man you got to drink some water. So so it's like yeah there is a little bit of education understanding the environment uh in that piece um the other one I will say that now I think about that this surprised me a study I got to be a part of was uh with with a good buddy uh Will Conchright we went over to Afghanistan and this is like 2017 with one of the SF groups and traveled around and looked at um energy intake and food intake and things like that. And it again it showed like in Afghanistan some of the capabilities that I thought we had nutritionally that like we briefed that like we we had we don't really like what um so I mean there was like a you know this this MRE that was like you know you could like it was it was one of the heat and serves you know pull tab you know you it works really well and but it was kind of I guess a notional go to war that wasn't being sent out to the guys and out in those units because you know the the groups they really are out there like uh um what is it is it Momad Valley it's near Pakistan I mean it there was one location they had to have like all their stuff airdropped in so they're they're eating MREs and Pop Tarts and I mean it's not the best food a lot of them are losing weight. So that was that really opened my eyes because I mean this is 2017. I thought we had nutrition figured out and and so seeing that I'm like we do not we we you know we still before the next if if we ever had a battle where um you know our air superiority was questioned it would be challenging we would have to really you know think I mean I I think we would have processed calorically dense food they just came out with a new combat ration that has more calories because they've upped the fat they had to up the fat to just make it calorically dense so you didn't have to carry as much weight. But again that's only going to be good for so long. I I think we need to look at like yeah are there sustainable microgreens you know growing stuff on on where you're at like things like that those type of solutions um you know down the road we we need to consider if we're gonna keep people healthy.

Host 1:57:05

The metabolite study with um Dr. Emily Stein and Dr.

Nick Barringer 1:57:09

Jesse Stein 130 metabolites for nutrition yeah tell me a little bit about that work yeah um so you know there there was a couple different studies we did and that was when I was at um uh West Point um uh you know we we did one looking at with the cadets when they were out in their their field training and Dr. Phil Carl actually led that Jesse Jesse was definitely involved um in that um but they you know he was looking at like gut microbiome and some of these other markers and it's just you know you identify these pathways and then understand what's going on during stress and when you're in a caloric deficit uh and then you can maybe figure out like how to action on these pathways. So so some might you know it's gonna be kind of disappointing like we just don't know. But then an interesting study that we still you know papers are coming out about we did with combatives and we took salivary measurements uh before they would go and do their fights their their you know end of the year fights and looked at uh you know cortisol and and you know testosterone and and some you know mood and there were some interesting findings out of that in terms of like I I remember and hopefully I'm not not butchering this was like guys because we we had guys and gals it was like guys when they fought or did you know what they had to do you know with the end because there was open hand strikes and grappling like jujitsu their like anger level or anything like that like didn't really didn't really matter like it didn't move. Like it'd be like me and you like all right dude we get to fight each other or whatever. But for the females it was different like there was more anger there had to be more anger like could actually be more successful if they had a little more anger. And then also there is like this optimal stress response as well you know people sometimes cortisol gets like a bad name people you know oh cortisol it's bad or whatever but it's like no uh cortisol was predictive up to a point of like that stress response of how people did and in fights like you need to have that that fight or flight response. Um so so it was you know it's pretty interesting there's more there's more stuff to to to to come out of that.

Host 1:59:11

Yeah it's super interesting uh creatine I I wanted to give creatine its own little space uh just because you did so much research on it and it's something that I take regularly and there's there's been some new new new studies and finding about creatine even in the last year or two. Creatine 101 for someone who doesn't know uh anything about creatine can you explain what creatine is and what it does in the body?

Nick Barringer 1:59:31

Yeah you know uh you know creatine we we get it uh from food like we're all consuming it so so I think that's one of the things that kind of firstly to to to level the the playing field is understand like every time you eat a piece of uh you know chicken or meat or whatever you like you're you're getting you know some some creatine um when we found out that it was beneficial it was a guy Dr. Roger Harris out of uh the United Kingdom you know when when he took uh when he gave people creatine he found that they they got stronger they they were you know they got more explosive and and they they gained some some muscle mass um there's some different you know factors it can help uh with ATPs which ATPs you know give you the energy so like when we're lifting weights today so you can get a few more reps which can help you get stronger um it can help uh you know more fluid go into the muscle which can expand it which is part of that weight gain um but but it can also help with with muscle growth and some of that signaling um as well so it does all those things which which we knew and have been really you know well accepted so based on that a lot of strength and a lot of power athletes used it endurance athletes not as much because you have to weigh the weight gain right you got to carry your own engine run with it but huge with football huge with with with those kind of sports throwing sports etc and then even the military like when we look at like ruck uh you know uh you know rucking carrying capacity things like that could could be a benefit um where we've really seen a shift I would say recently in the research is like the cognitive stuff oh yeah man and and that's really where it's gotten interesting is now there's been studies with uh sleep deprivation and man I I I can't think of I need I need a piece of the gum now uh think of the the author who did uh a a paper recently it was like you know 24 hours sleep deprivation and you you either got you know creatine or placebo and they did like reaction time word recall this whole cognitive battery and it was like every test from reaction time to word recall to uh you know different matching to everything the creatine group did better after sleep deprivation compared to the placebo and why is that is creatine can be used by your brain so it could also help now with traumatic brain injury so I can tell you like all my friends who work in uh division one athletics like with football everybody's like kind of standard of care if an athlete gets uh a brain injury or concussion they they up the creatine dose really that they put them on it how safe is it um as a supplement extremely safe extremely and there was just a position paper Dr. Kreider of course headed up he put out through the ISSN I mean you know that there's been studies with kids there's been studies even with like renal patients it's it it's it's you know one of the most again well researched uh aids that are out there caffeine probably has more research just because caffeine's you know been talked about for so long but but creatine extremely safe I mean I now I give people the example I'm like I've got my 77 year old mom on creatine like she broke her leg and so I put her on that but then just the cognitive benefits. Now with the cognitive benefits and you and I kind of talked about this the dose is higher because the average dose is three to five grams right per day. For the 24 hour sleep study I think it was 0.3 um was it 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight I'll have to look yeah because they were giving like 15 to 20 grams right yeah yeah so for me for somebody my body weight ended up being like 20 to 25 grams so so you need more uh creatine to get kind of through that blood brain barrier are you taking that at one time or or spread out doses throughout the day uh you you can do either um for for me i i'll I'll do it like the study it'll depend so if I'm traveling like we like to do and you know you land and I get to give a talk and I didn't sleep well last night I'm doing it all at once. I'm doing it all at once and I'm doing it about four hours if I can. So if I'm giving a talk at noon, let's say about eight, I'm I'm slamming the creatine because that was kind of the peak in that study when they showed it was four hours after taking it. Because again it takes a while um because from my understanding and and one of the better creatine researchers might you know correct me on this I think it's like your muscles kind of uptake it first and then it takes a while for your for your brain to because you you have receptors where your muscles can take it right away. Your brain it takes a bit to get it through there.

Host 2:03:45

There was that whole thing for a while where they were telling you you have to take creatine with juice because you know you need some kind of sugar spike is is that a is that true is there any no you know you you can take it without I mean insulin definitely help but but no you don't need it.

Nick Barringer 2:03:56

What does creatine actually do or how does it work inside the the body and then um also uh you know I'll have a follow-up about you know creatine monohydrate versus HTL we talked about yeah yeah so so again you know it can give you more of that that phosphate to produce more of the phosphate so you can quickly replenish those ATPs um there there is uh some some talk and I I'm not as deep in this research about it being like a a myostatin inhibitor like which can help with with muscle growth like if you've ever seen like when they knock out myostatin in animals have you ever seen that you know what I'm talking about uh yeah if anybody you know goes go go search like put out like myostatin knockout like dogs and bulls you get like the blue bulls those you know super muscular um so like like myostatin um basically is the governor of for of our muscle growth and so creatine might help inhibit that and you get a little more growth from there. But then from the brain I mean it's it can be a fuel source which one of the things that happens when you have a traumatic brain injury one of the the mechanisms that kind of messes things up is it mechanics it messes up the glucose use, which our brain runs off of glucose. And so when you mess up that now you you're not getting energy to something that's injured so it can't recover as quickly. So one of the theories is creatine can actually go in and provide that energy source for repair.

Host 2:05:14

Wow um so would you recommend like sustained use during that injury period? Yes yes and then what what about like what age I mean obviously you're not gonna give this stuff to like newborns and yeah but like what age and I and let's let's caveat that out there you know I think parents you know do your own research concept talk to medical professors right we got a lot of yeah yeah but what um you know what what have you seen or uh I I feel comfortable I don't lose any sleep with teenagers I am not saying that because I certainly would have some colleagues who would say hey you know nine ten what you know kids um but right now like teenagers but then as far as like what we go up to I mean I think geriatrics and also if we go back to where creatine comes from especially people with poor diets who don't eat a lot of meat who don't eat a lot of like animal source you know things creatine's extremely beneficial uh I'll give a quick example of one of the uh officers I worked with she was a vegetarian she was you know with me at the the graduate program of nutrition and I got her to try creatine and man like her deadlift went up like 20 pounds medicine ball throw like like everything didn't change your training didn't train but it's like rocket fuel especially if you have a a a poor diet or you're not eating a lot of meat or you're a vegan or vegetarian and you give them creatine it's like wow so um the whole late loading versus maintenance is that is that actual thing if you have something coming up that you need to be ready for within like a week or two weeks it might be worth loading to kind of get up there quicker.

Nick Barringer 2:06:59

Otherwise the five grams a day for 30 days you'll you'll reach tissue saturation and less likely to lose you know some of your urine um but but the loading of the bigger doses is like I have a specific event or like the cognitive benefit I'm looking for that. But is five grams a day is that kind of the normal baseline yes yeah and if you look for most people three to five I say three to five because like if you're 110 pound female you know you might want to go uh a lower dose if if it gives you gastrointestinal kind of problems um the and man I remember the dosing but if you look at the International Society uh on sports nutrition paper on creatine they have the uh the actual dosing on that and and again I think that might be 0.03 or 0.3 milligrams per kilogram a day and so you can you can dose for weight timing does it matter when you when you take creatine pre post before bed I you know I don't take it before bed now and why is because of the the my logic is if it helps you be more alert when you're sleep deprived maybe there's something there that could affect your sleep. Oh that makes sense so so so that's that's my lot so I don't so it's one I I definitely do in the morning. Creatine monohydrate versus like everything else yeah crealkaline creatine athlester no it's it's creatine monohydrate that's all you need and again uh Dr. Kreider has done a lot of that research we we did I think it was Andrew uh Yeagum did a paper when I was there or right before I got there on and it was it was creatine hydrochloride and yeah it was creatine monohydrate was better um so so yeah you just need the monohydrate um and then if you're looking at you know supplements I really like if you can find creature on the label that's the German based creatine there's you know Chinese creatine and stuff and I'm not saying it's all bad but I will say this if you look at any of the like lab results where it when creatine monohydrate has either been found to be tainted or had stuff in it it's always been the Chinese creatine. The German creatine has never failed good point. So creature and that'll that'll I've never seen that on a label is that like a company or yeah you you'll see it on a label it's just it's just uh they are a company uh but a lot of supplement companies buy the German creatine they get the German creatine it's good to know because we're about to yeah yeah I'm about to start selling creatine you're voidy long some some myths and controversy about creatine the kidney myth uh what does the research actually say? No it's it's uh I mean there's now even some papers where they gave you know uh creatine to renal patients so so there there could be some benefit there. Um again I say all this I am not a physician have the if you have renal disease whatever talk to your your your you know uh your urologist whoever you you're working with right that you guys are gonna have to make that decision um but you can you know certainly look up and we can put some link in the show notes to papers where they've done um creatine in in patients with renal disease um the cramping myth you you kind of dealt with this in training pipelines what's the real story as far as creatine and cramping it could actually help with thermal regulation you know we thought at one point that it would make you more susceptible to a heat injury um there's been at least three studies that show it can be preventative and why is that it kind of makes sense it makes you retain more fluid you can almost you can hyperhydrate on creatine um so no uh so so taking creatine as long as you're you know again drinking plenty of water um then then you're fine dehydration concern no again as long as you're drinking enough fluid with it there's no you know now it's got me thinking about drinking um the there's there's no concern with that again like it could be potentially uh beneficial what about uh water weight I mean that's a big thing you've heard is that most of the creatine yeah maybe that's old signs but it was like you take creatine you're you're not really gaining weight you're just getting water blown no I mean uh you're you're definitely retaining more fluid but there is some muscle gain with it but but that's part of the um the the consideration for the athlete for the individual for instance if you're really close on your five mile runtime and you're trying to get in a regiment would I put you on creatine you know uh about like because I'm like oh that weight gain does that well that and you gotta play with that or know that or even like with uh the the fighter I work with like he's gonna come off of creatine like the week he's making weight or right before it you know um so there are situations where yeah you you need to look and see the beneficial for for you um we talked about this morning creatine gummies uh what's kind of what's your thought process on them and and why don't you really recommend them? Yeah I'm still you know the moisture thing the moisture creatine and water and and I had to look this up and it takes a while we're we're talking days of creatine setting in water to to to break down to creatinine right um but in a gummy environment you're you're always gonna have some moisture and so I just wonder with with that creatine I I haven't seen anybody that's convinced me like we're able to encapsulate it or whatever to where it's pure and the fact you you add that to the fact that there has been some consumer lab results that have shown creatine gummies not containing it. So uh for me to be on the safe side I'm just either going to use the powder or like the chews like a hard chew they make it like kind of like a smarty there's some companies that make it in that form. That's fine. Creatine and liquid uh why does it break down and how fast do you need to drink it? Um man I don't know the actual chemical like reason like why it breaks out is when I I uh I just know it does um I mean if I like I said it's gonna take a day but but I would I would say hey mix it you know don't leave it in your refrigerator like know you're gonna drink it within that day and most most people do um so it's not like hey I gotta put it I got I gotta drop my creatine and drink it in really quick. Um now I will throw out um heat can also speed that up so I don't think a lot of people are putting in their coffee or tea but if you are then that would you would need to drink it more quickly.

Host 2:13:05

Interesting. Uh vegans and vegetarians I think you told me previously that you said that you know they respond like jet fuel.

Nick Barringer 2:13:11

Yep. What why is that? Because it's it's extremely low in their diet like it's basically non-existent because you you don't get a lot of creatine from plants you get it from animals. So so you're really and and I'll tell you another supplement they'll respond really well to beta alanine the same thing. Because beta alanine you're you're getting you know it increases carnosiness so you're getting carnosined low like the food you eat. Um again the meats and things like that. So um they're gonna have extremely low beta alanine and creatine levels So if they supplement, it'll it'll really see a effect.

Host 2:13:41

Um women and creatine, same dose, same benefits, any any different?

Nick Barringer 2:13:45

Yeah, yeah, same, same, same dose, uh, you know, um uh same benefits. I mean, I mean, there's there's no reason. I and I'm really excited too because I I feel like that shift with women and lifting weights, like now every woman knows she should lift weights, right? Like we we've turned that card.

Host 2:14:04

Yeah, it's so weird, man. I mean, there was this idea that if women lifted weights, they were gonna look like a dude.

Nick Barringer 2:14:07

But that was right, right. Like when we were younger or whatever, it was it was very like if you went to the gym, I remember it's like all the guys are lifting weights and then the girls are doing cardio. Um, but now that that's calm. So yeah, you know, uh females should certainly use creatine.

Host 2:14:21

Like I think we talked about the TBI and concussion protocols and and older adults. Um, your mom, you mentioned your mom being on it. Do you put her on a higher dose, like 10, 15 milligrams?

Nick Barringer 2:14:32

No, I I got her on uh just five grams a day. Um, you know, she she's a little smaller, but for her, it was, you know, the cognition one, 77. I want to keep her sharp, but then two, she had a really bad shit. She fell and you know, shattered her tibia, shattered her fibia, like um, and was recovering. So I needed to get her strength back like quickly to kind of and it it really, I hey, you know, she it says like the doctor was impressed how quick she came back, and you know, she gives a lot of credit. And I also knew um her diet. I'm working on it. Uh, you know, she doesn't always eat like she doesn't like to eat meat. And one of the things when people get older, their appetite goes away because you don't have as uh your taste buds get desensitized as you age. And so this is a problem with the geriatric community. So again, I know, you know, I can either like try to get her to eat more chicken, which I do and all like that, or I have her dose on creatine and I know she's you know kind of covering that base.

Host 2:15:29

Super cool. Um, I I I kind of just want to shift a little bit and just talk about supplements in general. It's not too often we get uh somebody of your stature, and you know, I think I was telling you our analytics are pretty high for males, um, and you know, a lot of dudes working out and you know, either transition into a health lifestyle or are already living a healthy lifestyle. So um what's kind of your personal supplement stack um or what do you take daily and why?

Nick Barringer 2:15:53

Yes, I I like vitamin D. Obviously, I do D3, um, you know, anywhere, yeah, 2,000, 5,000 I use. And that's why Vitamin D are is that's fat soluble. Are you taking that at night or are you taking it during the day? I'm taking it during the day, like with a meal. Yeah, I like to I like to take it with the fat um to get that in. Um, and you know, I like to take it regularly. If if somebody is deficient, I will say, and your doc's like, all right, I'm just gonna give you a bolus dose every couple weeks. I've seen that protocol. I don't like it because vitamin D, if you look at how it acts in the body, it acts like a hormone. I would rather take a smaller dose consistently than just like a bolus dose one week and a bolus dose the next. So if anybody ever gets put on that, I would, I would push back. Um, but but you know, again, for the cognitive benefits, for the muscle benefits, you know, um, I take creatine, obviously, for all said, you know, now probably more for the cognitive, because I'm not I'm not trying to do any like lifting PRs, really. Um, but really for the cognitive benefit. So I take I take creatine monohydrate at five grams, but we'll go higher when I'm sleep deprived. I'll go up to, you know, that that I'll be in that 20 gram range. Um omega-3 fatty acids, I take two grams of of that for the cardiovascular um and the cognitive. Then after that, it depends. I like, you know, I haven't been using it as much, but I've been using uh magnesium glycinate at sleep, like 200 milligrams. Oh my god, dude.

Host 2:17:22

Yeah, and uh magnesium m thurinate, too.

Nick Barringer 2:17:24

Yeah, yep, that that's great. So, so so I I'll I'll do that. Um yeah, I mean then after that, it's it's protein. I mean, there's other things that'll uh sometimes like rotate. And are you doing protein powder or collagen or any of that stuff? Yes. So I I'll do uh you know, I'll do a collagen peptide um uh on occasion and then along. And then and this is another thing careful to point out to people. Um never count your collagen as your protein. Because collagen is extremely low in leucine. Leucine is what you need to make that trigger. There, there's a leucine trigger to say, you know, make more muscle, kind of. And so you get that from, you know, chicken, from beef, whey protein, very rich in leucine. But what collie uh call uh collagen is high in is is uh glycine and proline, which isn't as high in whey protein, which is really high in your tendons and your joints. And so that's where the collagen I think can be of particular benefit. Even you know, the glycine, maybe with sleep, it could help with sleep. Um, the other uh piece with with uh collagen supplementation that I don't think gets talked about enough is skin. There's more research to show that it helps with like uh skin hydration um and uh skin elasticity. Like that's it's pretty compelling compared to the tendon stuff. The tendon stuff, people's you know, joints and stuff tend to uh hurt less, but as far as like mechanistically like pinning it down, it's it's it's a little hard. Um, but the skin stuff, why I say that is a lot of people like it's it's like the women, like trying to look younger, you know, they think. But a lot of my guys like you, if you do any combat sport where you get punched in the face, you should be taking collagen because cuts can be career ending, cuts can end a fight. So anything that can help your cuts heal up better, heal up quicker is gonna be a benefit. And so that's why I also like the collagen for the combat sport athletes. Like boxers, I don't think a lot of boxers take it, but if if you were a boxer or you're a boxer listening to this, I would I would be taking at least 20 grams of collagen a day. Dude, great, great insight. Pre-workouts. You take any pre-workouts? I I I don't. I used to. Um, you know, I I would take so like anybody else, I would take what was out there, right? And then I'm like, all right, well, what's the active ingredient? Caffeine. That that's the main right, you know, caffeine. So I tried, I went down this whole journey. I got pure caffeine and hydrus, which again, I don't recommend because you got to be careful on the dose. And the only time or most cases where people die of caffeine overdose is somebody bought pure caffeine and hydrus and they mess it up. Because you're not gonna drink, it's hard to drink all that many monsters or coffee because the lethal dose of caffeine is like 10 grams for most people, which is a lot. Not a challenge to anybody listening, but um, but but so you you've got to respect it. And so I I would do that and I would dose that and and kind of play with that. But then from the first strike ration, it had the caffeinated gum in it. And what I really liked about it was you get transmucosal delivery. So when you ingest your coffee or uh, you know, your pre-workout, what do you gotta wait? Like 30, 40 minutes, you know, for it to go through the gut. And it depends, do you eat anything? Is there anything fatty in there? All like that. Whereas I could bypass that by chewing my caffeine and getting it um in the system. So that's what I went to.

Host 2:20:43

Explains the gum, dude. Yeah, yeah. This this gum hit me pretty quick, probably less than like five, 10 minutes.

Nick Barringer 2:20:49

Yeah, yeah. So this was 2010 when I started on the gum.

Host 2:20:53

Yeah. Pump products, nitric oxide boosters, beet shots. Do they work? Would you use them?

Nick Barringer 2:20:58

Yeah, I think, you know, the so the nitric oxide, what was really big was arginine, right? The amino acid that gets converted to nitric oxide. Arginine gets converted to nitric oxide in people that have some sort of like endothelial or vascular dysfunction, and it shows that it works. You give them arginine, it works. People who are healthy doesn't seem to be as effective. What could be uh effective is citrulline. L-citrulline could help with it, um, but then also the beetroot juice and the beetroot powder, very effective. I mean, so much so um, I had, you know, one individual I was I was working with, they had high blood pressure. They were on a high blood pressure medication. I was like, hey, have you thought about beetroot juice or powder? Nitric oxide can help with blood pressure and all. They started taking like the the beetroot juice and powder, and like they're talking to their the physician about getting off the blood pressure medication. Wow. Again, not saying go do that, but but but that's how much their blood pressure dropped. Um, so the beetroot juice, it's it's a it's a powerful thing to use. And you know, if you're going to altitude, it can help with that. Um, but then any cardiovascular activity um can can help with. And then, you know, for men, for you know, sexual health, if you don't want to do Viagra or Cialis, you could try like a beetroot juice or beetroot powder for for better blood flow.

Host 2:22:16

Because it's a yeah, vaso dial or vaso dilator.

Nick Barringer 2:22:19

Yeah, yeah. Now you you gotta be very particular because it, you know, uh where the beets were grown and how they're processed. I like um God and I just the the brand the the brand uh totally slipped my mind. Um uh it's like elite beets. Um I'll see, I maybe I'll have to look it up on my phone, but but they they do a great job. They have uh a guy, Dr. John Alvey out of the University of Texas, who like you know, tests the products for the amount of like nitrates in the products that you're gonna get that response. And and so I would I would go with that. And then the other piece with beets is probably more than you want to know, but if you use mouthwash, stop using mouthwash when you do your uh beetroot juice or beetroot powder. Why is that? Uh, because it kills the there's a lot of bacteria in your mouth that helps convert it to that nitric oxide, like that's when the process starts. And so if you're using like a an alcohol-based mouthwash, you're you're killing that. And so you're not gonna get a good response.

Host 2:23:18

Yeah, I've I've actually heard that before. Uh training fasted versus fed, does fasted training burn more fat? What's the is there any science in any of that stuff?

Nick Barringer 2:23:26

Uh I mean, you know, certainly, I mean, is as a substrate, you you you burn more as a percentage, but does it matter? Probably not. And then it's like, well, what's what's your purpose? What's your goal? If your goal um, you know, is to run the fastest 5k you can run, I would train Fed, right? Because carbohydrates is gonna help you do that. Right. You your fuel. Um if it's just like I wake up in the morning, bro, I'm not hungry, I'm gonna get a coffee, that's my time to hit the gym. Okay. Like I'm not, hey, let's get some protein in afterwards so you preserve your lean muscle mass, but I'm not gonna get worked up about that.

Host 2:24:07

I got kids that play a lot of sports. We're doing tournaments on the weekend. Um, you know, what do you say as somebody who worked in the Rage Regiment? I mean, obviously we're not, I'm not comparing my kids to the Ranger Regiment, but you know, they're it, you know, it's extended um athlete stuff over multiple day period. What what kind of nutrition are you recommending? Um, just whether it's a UFC fighter or, you know, the the high school kids that are they're going that, what what uh what type of nutrition maybe before or in between in between games? Any ideas on that?

Nick Barringer 2:24:35

Yes. Um, so you know, again, it doesn't have to be complicated because really for for you know, especially the kids like moving like that is like just get them enough fuel. So I'm you know, applesauce is great because it doesn't go bad, it's quick, quick hit of fuel. You're getting like 15 to 30 grams of carbs. Um, you never want to go more with those kids, they could probably handy handle 60 grams of carbs an hour, 30 to 60 grams of carbs an hour would would be what there's some, you know, elite athletes do 90, but I I I wouldn't do that. Um, so what does that look like food-wise? That could be a packet of applesauce. Um, that could be, you know, a pack of apples with a bagel, a bagel and a half, it could be a bagel with some honey. Um, you know, it could be a banana, you know, fruit, fructose sometimes upsets people's stomach, the the sugar and fruit. For me, I don't have a problem with it. My kids don't have a problem with it. So my son can crush a banana and go play soccer and he doesn't, you know. So it's just to throw something out there. If you do, you know, you give a kid a banana and they're like, ah, my tummy hurts or whatever, maybe they're saying so. Then you switch to a bagel or whatever. Um, so so find those things that they like to eat and they're gonna eat, and uh that's it's you know, pretty easy to digest.

Host 2:25:49

And then for the adult, maybe who's um, you know, a tactical athlete or or doing um, or you know, a lot of cops and firefighters, man, on their training days, you know, they're doing, you know, either housework, firefighters were up and uh, you know, you know they got a whole day of training running in a house is up and downstairs. Um, um, I I hear you on the carbs, anything on the protein side, or does that really matter uh when you're just trying to find calories for fuel source?

Nick Barringer 2:26:10

No, I mean, you know, the so the carbs like the fuel like the event, but then like the the post kind of event or even intra-event, like that's where I want some protein, especially older individuals where we're really trying to preserve lean muscle mass. And there's there's even some literature that as we age, I mean, think like when we get past the age of 40, that um our sensitivity to protein actually goes down. So we need a little more to kind of trigger that, a little more leucine to trigger that. And so with those individuals, yes, you know, uh chocolate milk post-workout, I mean that's an easy one. Um, uh essential amino acids, I get excited about because they provide a very easy way to get in, you know, what your body needs protein-wise without a lot of calories or a lot of volume. Um, so for somebody trying to lose weight, you could use it. Or for somebody like my mom who's not really hungry. And I can give her, you know, uh, you know, 12 grams of essential amino acids, which is for her, you know, is like eating like 20 grams of protein or eating that, you know, uh a six-ounce thing of chicken. Um, but she can drink it and it can be in like a berry flavor and not thinking of anything, but that could be her beverage. Um, so so that that's that's another area I would say, like kind of with those older adults to consider is like a carbohydrate and then maybe some essential amino acids, but certainly you can eat food as well if if it is convenient.

Host 2:27:36

Yeah. Um I I didn't really ask you a lot about it, but I kind of went wanted to go back. Beta alan. Um, you you mentioned it. Do you take it? What is it? What does it do?

Nick Barringer 2:27:46

So, so uh beta-alanine is a is a uh amino acid, the buffer that it combines with histanine in the body to increase carnosine levels in your muscle. Carnosine is like when you're going hard and you know you're producing all the hydrogen ions, kind of the buffering capacity is that carnosine. So by taking in beta-alanine, it increases the carnosine. Um that has been shown to be effective. So if you have to do repeated sprints or, you know, uh, you know, sort of things, beta alanine could be a great benefit or repeated swims or any any of those types of repeated, like hard, high heart rate activities. There is some research coming out of um Israel um with the IDF they're looking at, with uh they've done there's a guy, Dr. Jay Hoffman, who's done a lot of work um looking at some of the cognitive uh benefit stuff, which is which is pretty wild. Like he did this animal study um where he took a uh it was a it might have been a mouse, rat, whatever rodent, and introduced it to a predatory scent. So apparently, like if you want to induce like PTSD in a rodent model, like make it smell cat urine, freaks them out, right? So so we do that, and then they were able to sacrifice and look at the brain and look at like all these you know things that happen in the brain kind of like with a human. And then they were able to do it feeding them like beta-alanine, and the response um was like less stress, like they had a uh a robust protective response, something called uh brain drive nootropic factor, which is protective in the brain, increased when they gave him beta-alanine. And since then, they've done some like runs where they've had guys, you know, do shoot houses and other things with like cognitive tasks with beta-alanine, uh, because there is some you know talk about it getting it past the blood-brain barrier, kind of like with creatine. So I think there's more to the beta-alanine story than just the puffering buffering capacity. You'll see as of right now, if you look in like the literature, that's why people take it. Like they're you know, 400 meter runners or 800 meter repeated sprint or things like that. They want to take beta alanine.

Host 2:29:50

Um, but I before the event or yeah, before the event.

Nick Barringer 2:29:53

Okay. Yeah, you can take it acutely or chronically. Um, but what do you what what what form does that come in? Is it a powder? Powder. A lot of times a powder. Yep. And it used to be in a lot of the pre-workouts. Remember those tingles you would get from taking the pre-workouts? That was from the beta alanine.

Host 2:30:07

Wow. Uh, do you take it ever regularly?

Nick Barringer 2:30:10

I I used to take it. I I don't take it as as much. Um just now having this conversation with you. It makes me think I need to go back and look at the literature because again, the the cognitive stuff was coming out, so it wouldn't surprise me if like two years from now, if you know, you and I, you know, you know, talk again, I'm like, hey, man, beta alanine's become like the new creatine. So I could see it.

Host 2:30:30

I kind of skipped it just a tad, but um, you know, I just want to talk about um, you know, I I know you're not a testosterone doctor, TRT doctor, and that's not your thing. Uh, but I do want to just just hit on it because I think you said something off camera I think is is an important conversation to have as far as, you know, one, the the dangers of over-the-counter test boosters because of the 17 alpha alkalide, which could put a lot of stress and damage on your liver. But also, can you speak to a little bit about your thoughts on, you know, testosterone and sometimes people run to the TRT um when they don't fix everything else?

Nick Barringer 2:31:01

Yeah, again, not an endocrinologist, not a physician. But what I've seen is, you know, somebody they're drinking too much alcohol, they're not taking care of themselves, and they're not getting enough sleep, and they're like, oh, my testosterone's low. Um, you know, let's okay, let's let's start addressing those issues. Let's let's let's cut back on the alcohol or eliminate it, depending on you know what you want to do. Um, let's start getting some good sleep, some consistent sleep, and let's dial in your nutrition, lose some body fat, lose that like all those factors are gonna help. Um now again, you know, with the weight loss stuff, I've seen some like uh Dr. Lyon, like her approach is well, I'll get them on testosterone first because it can help trigger the weight loss and movement, which is valid. And I think very, you know, and she's a physician and practices that. Um, I I think also a good thing for for people to realize is like where are you getting that information from? Um, like I would I would rely on her to give me that information because again, she's a physician, she's practicing. But I've seen on Instagram um an individual who I know was like a golf trainer. Like she used to specialize in like training people for golf, and now like her thing is getting guys on testosterone. And it's like, you're not an endocrinologist, you have no medical background, you have no, but like, I mean there's money in it, that's why right, you know, and and so there's a lot of that going on. It's not just her, there's a lot of that going on, and I was like, that that you know, you've still and we talked a little bit, like you've still got to respect it. It's still um, you know, there's consequences if you don't, you know, and there's a lot.

Host 2:32:29

I mean, there is a ton of TRT providers out there, and they're not all the same, dude. You know, they're giving everybody a standard dose, regardless of, you know, your weight, your age, your you know, extenuating, you know, back health sort of you know, health concerns. And so, you know, I I I tell people all the time, man, if you're interested in getting TRT, especially older dudes, like make sure you find a dude. They're testing your blood regularly, you're getting your all your stuff dialed in.

Nick Barringer 2:32:54

Um Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't, don't go for the cheapest. I would probably really don't you don't have to go for the most expensive, but you know, maybe that Matt Middle road. And again, like a physician that's you know look their background up, uh, you know, do they have a background in it? How long have they been doing it? How long have they been practicing? And then who are their patients?

Host 2:33:12

Yeah, kind of transition into like um, you know, extreme athletes, extreme environments, you know, high altitude stuff. Um, you know, what are some of your supplementation considerations for um either high altitude uh or maybe you know extreme cold weather or any of that kind of stuff? Are those two completely different things?

Nick Barringer 2:33:31

No, I mean, usually what goes with cold, I mean, altitude goes with cold. And I think that's the most demanding environment. I mean, you know, I I remember uh, you know, getting to regiment and reading Robert's Ridge and the Battle of Takukar and hearing, and what was really interesting was some of those rangers were still at regiment. You know, they're talking about like how we had to throw our plates because you know, the high altitude, it was so demanding and and you know, getting up there. Now they were like 30,000 feet. Yeah, the physiological consequences. So uh, so so two things that can manipulate nutrition-wise that people need to think about is iron stores, getting your iron stores measured. If I had a group that was going to altitude, you need to look at like iron stores and getting those dialed in. And I'm I I can't give all the numbers I used off the top of my head. I'm trying to think, but you know, we we could maybe put in the show notes or whatever, dial those in because if your iron stores are not topped off, like you could even be like non-anemic, but you're at the lower end of the spectrum. Now I put you at altitude and your body's like, make more red blood cells and starts pulling from there, and you don't you don't have enough material, you're not gonna adapt fast enough. So you need your iron stores topped off. And there's a couple uh studies that were done with the Marines where they were putting them on prenatals instead of altitude, and they did better. They adapted better because again, you're you know, your body's gonna be like, we need to make red blood cells, we need iron. Bop, bop, bop, it's gonna chew through it. So optimizing iron stores would be the biggest for that adaptation. And then the other piece of it would be hydration, you know, people drinking enough uh at altitude, the cold environment, like the talk about where you're getting your water from, if you got to melt it, you know, staying on top of it there, um, is gonna help. But then also um the nitric oxide boosters, if you could do that. Um, now there's a a paper uh Lee Margolis put out that was pretty good where he looked at like a erythropoeting and performance. And I think that would be a conversation if we ever did another battle up at a mountain against an enemy that's adapted there, and you had guys who are QRF that need to go to altitude and fight with combat equipment, it's like, man, why wouldn't we put them on EPO? Because we're not gonna be. To get them adapted any quicker. Yeah, that that is what like all the cyclists were on and doping with. Oh, blood doping? Yeah. Okay. So so the old blood doping was I I take you, I take your blood out, I store it, and then I give it back to you, get more red blood cells. Now I can give you erythropoietin, and it just tells your body, make more red blood cells. What is that? Is that a drink? No, it's a it's a drug, it's shots. Oh. Um interesting enough though, we go back. So uh solidrocide also stimulates erythropoietin. That's one of the benefits that from that to make more red blood cells. But uh, so it could help at altitude, and that's why rhodiola rosea could be another thing for for people at altitude. Um, but I would say the big levers for nutrition would be iron stores and doctor oxide.

Host 2:36:23

Well, uh, do you have any experience or thoughts on ketones? Like there's a brand called ketone IQ. Supposedly that was you know supposed to help at at uh or it was originally tested uh for people doing stuff with altitude. Any any experience with that?

Nick Barringer 2:36:36

Yes, and and so that another this guy, his his ears gotta be burning, man. Lee Margolos again, had done research with uh, you know, ketones. And what he found is uh it can inhibit your ability to use carbohydrates, like it's it's not as as great as everybody says. And if I remember the initial uh uh studies with ketones was Dom Diagostino, Dr. Dom Diagostino out of Florida, and it was it was in, I think, a hyperbaric chamber because he was looking at divers because the rebreathers that the seals use because they don't want the bubbles coming to the surface, you can get oxygen toxicity, I think, build up and the ketones could be beneficial there. Yes, like like there are certain situations for ketones that I think could be beneficial, but I don't think kind of how it's being sold is like everybody use ketones. It could be because you know, there are some gastrointestinal side effects if you look at the ketone research where you know it causes uh stomach upset. Then also, what is it? Is it a ketone salt? Ketone salts don't move the needle. I wouldn't recommend those. Where a ketone, a ketone ester, the liquid ketone, does it tastes like jet fuel if you ever like used it?

Host 2:37:47

I have uh the small ketone IQ. Again, I'm not sponsored. Yeah, yeah. I use I the I but I was using that for a pre-work on sometimes. It was a ketone IQ and it had, I think, 100 or 200 milligrams of caffeine. Um, you know, pretty legit. But I again, man, to your point, I think it was probably the caffeine that was more moving the needle than than the ketone, but uh but it tastes like well, they finally came out with a green apple one, it was a little bit better than the official stuff was yeah, cat piss, bro.

Nick Barringer 2:38:12

Yeah, yeah. So, so so it's not for everybody, but I do think there is some specific use cases. I mean, you know, um, I mean, for instance, like uh, you know, people with epilepsy, right? A ketogenic diet's effective. It reduces seizures. So now, okay, could it exogenous ketones help with that? For uh brain injuries, could ketones, because again, we talked about uh your body can't use glucose, your brain can't use glucose a lot of times when you get a brain injury, it affects that. Well, now ketone could be another fuel source. So could it be beneficial there? So there's specific use cases, but for everybody, do you need to be on ketones? I would I would say no.

Host 2:39:16

Yeah, I agree. Um, kind of caffeine. Caffeine's been a big topic. I think uh only weirdos don't drink caffeine. Um, no, I don't know. I mean, my freaking bear, my uh my 13-year-old drinks coffee. I try to like limit it, but you know, even she's found the benefit. So, but it's not all the same, doesn't always come from the same places. Kind of what's your thoughts on on caffeine and sources and and all those kind of different things?

Nick Barringer 2:39:39

I mean, caffeine again, most well researched ergogenic aid. Um, it works, it's effective. If you're sleep deprived, I mean, coffee is a performance drink. If you look at even like it's a longevity drink, people who drink coffee tend to have less uh diseases and um why it's high in antioxidants, tea as well. Uh where I, you know, what sent me down the caffeine was I dealt with a lot of people in sleep deprivation or athletes traveling to time zones or you know, or tactical athletes traveling in different time zones and they need to stay awake. So we looked at, you know, energy drinks and then there's energy powders. And the problem I ran into again, a lot of them was proprietary blend where you really didn't know the dosage that were in there. And then I worried about like what all that polypharmacy was doing outside of the caffeine. So, how could I get caffeine to them? And what I landed on was the caffeine gum. They could throw it in their pack, they can go through customs, you know, it's not an energy, it's not a fact, you're not gonna get stopped, you got it. And then they can chew it, I can get them a specific dose, and they can be ready to go in five and ten minutes to either give a presentation, go kick down a door, go compete, go do it. And so, so that's where I've landed and it's kind of become my my pre-workout.

Host 2:40:52

Talk to me about salvo gum, uh, kind of the genesis. Um, and then uh the cylinder side.

Nick Barringer 2:41:00

Cylinder side, yeah.

Host 2:41:01

Cylinder side, yeah. Um, kind of uh man, when you I think we talked last week, you you told me I didn't even know you you had that. And then I kind of looked into it. Uh uh I looked at your wife's uh awesome website that she built you guys, a lot of lot of information. And I was kind of blown away, man. I I'd never heard of it, which is kind of I I try to, I really try to dive into supplements and stuff out there. So I'm super, super excited to hear about this.

Nick Barringer 2:41:23

Yeah, so um, you know, again, like the gum thing, I've been chewing caffeinated gum since like 2010, like like like for years. I'm that and and it was always a solution I would give um tactical athletes, in particular like uh people pulling security where you can't urinate, you're gardener principal for 12 hours, but you gotta stay awake. Caffeinated gum, right? Like there's all these use cases. I was like, oh man, it's it there's a thing. But there was there was nothing I loved. So military energy gum, which were they found in the MREs, it had sugar in it, and then the encapsulated caffeine. When caffeine's encapsulated, you don't get like the the release isn't always consistent. What I was finding is like when I was chewing, like some of the gum, some of the caffeine was still in there. Um so I wanted like a consistent release, uh, and then I wanted like certain structure and sourcing in my gum. And so that's what sent me down like the gum path. And one of the products that I've been using with my athletes lately is uh Rhodiola Rosea. It's you know, I think it goes back like a thousand years. Like there's old texts like where that plant's been used, and a lot of like with altitude, making people, you know, uh perform better in the mountains and things and use it. And so it's helped with like stress adaptation. So there's cognitive benefits, there's the benefit why they think of uh altitude, it um uh increases the stimulates that erythropoietin, so you get more red blood cells. So I've I've been using rhodiola rose with athletes and and personally a little bit and like found great benefits.

Host 2:42:55

Is that just from a plant? Is that a plant?

Nick Barringer 2:42:56

Yep, from a plant. But the but the problem was is it's become popular and one, it's getting over kind of harvested. Um, and then because of that, like your the quality is is getting affected by who's growing the plant, people are rushing it and whatever. And one of the active ingredients in it, like, okay, what is active in rhodiola? What's doing this? It's salidricide. Rhodiola is only one to three percent solidricide, depending on the plant. Slitrocide is kind of the thing that it's that's the magic making it happen. So I found a uh company like through this, you know, again, research that have been able to figure out how to make salidricide through a fermentation process. So you don't have to harvest the rhodiola rosea. So that's good for the environment. But then also it's uh, you know, it has like a food status with the FDA, so it's not a dietary supplement. One of the things, you know, you'll notice on the gum label, it's a nutrition label, not a supplement label. So that was also important, you know, for me as well. Um, and and so, you know, finding this, I was like, I need to find somebody to put all this together. So I was able to find somebody to put it together. And, you know, what we landed on was the best way to deliver to get it immediate was you know, the other piece with encapsulated caffeine, which caffeine's like actually like kind of in the gum. Like you have to chew it so long to get it out. And not everybody chews gum is long. So I wanted something liquid, a liquid version. And then I like to go natural. So we went with a green caffeine from a green coffee. So a natural version, liquid version with a solidricite in it that I know every time I chew it, it's gonna deliver transmucosal delivery. I can get that effective dose and uh intersalvo gum.

Host 2:44:33

Like that's what what's the the I mean, because this gum, it doesn't have a ton of caffeine, it's like what, 40 milligrams? Yeah. Um, what is it that solidrocide is doing in coordination with the caffeine um to provide this like stable, continuous kind of boost?

Nick Barringer 2:44:50

That was based off um there there was a a paper and I put it on my Instagram a few days back, I think, that was looked at uh rhodiola and caffeine, and what they found is like when they gave people um rhodiola chronically, so the rhodiola rosea, right, which has the slither side, the active not to confuse people, in it. And then you got uh they either got uh a caffeine dose, or some people just got the a caffeine alone, or just caffeine and rhodiola rosea. They found there was some synergy there in terms of athletic performance and mood. And it was both in trained and untrained individuals, which is also very exciting. Because sometimes you can take untrained individuals and give them about anything and they do better. So it's even, you know, trained and untrained individuals and even in animal models. And so what appears to happen is there is some synergy there. And what why that was exciting for me was I am, you know, from all the years of using caffeine, I usually need like two, three hundred milligrams sometimes to get.

Host 2:45:53

And I was literally pulling out my C4 this morning, and you're like, hey bro, try the try the gum, because you know, I've yeah, I took a pre-workout and I'm sure I've got a high tolerance, and I'm like, oh yeah, I tried the gun, man. I was zipping in like two minutes. But it wasn't like a again, man, it's it's so it's a way, and I'm dude, I've been using caffeine since I could talk. Uh it's it's it's definitely different. I don't know how to describe it, it's not a buzz, but you're like, you're definitely, I feel more a little more fired up, a little more engaged, uh, but not like jittery.

Nick Barringer 2:46:20

And that was that was what I was after because you know, I called it a cognitive performance gum. Because now, again, like what am I chasing performance-wise? Is like to be as mentally clear, to be as mentally sharp. And and I'm not when I was doing the pre-workout stuff, it was like just get as hyped as can to go lift some heavy weights, right? To get that, but but I don't want that feeling. I needed to be more stable. And then cardiovascular too, I don't, I never, you know, ramping up my heart rate like that, I didn't think was ever good. Um, I just accepted it. Uh so now with the caffeine and slither side, I'm finding that okay, again, I can take half the dose of what I was taking in other caffeine gums. And I feel just as good, just as effective, kind of like who you're saying. And and I'm glad you're getting that same effect because other people, um, even the guy who makes the gum, he chews a lot of caffeine gum, as you can imagine. He called me because he didn't know anything about slither side and like I got him on it. And so, you know, when he was doing the test batch, he like calls me on my cell phone. I was like, hey man, what's up? He's like, dude, this is like legit. Like, because you know, I'm I'm a scientist, so he's probably like, all right, let's see, you know, I I've he's probably heard so many things about different putting different ingredients in, you know, he's like, All right, I'll do it. Um, but then when he tried it, he's like, Yeah, one piece where normally I would have multiple. So it's it's been fun.

Host 2:47:38

So, how did you discover that? Was it something that you were researching?

Nick Barringer 2:47:41

Or uh Yeah, it was it was the rhodiola rosea, and then just going down that road of like, all right, rhodiola rosea works, but the problem is that the the it's it's hard to dose the plant. Like, where am I gonna source the best rhodiola plants consistently, you know, that gives me the solidricide? And then when I started looking into solidrocide, I discovered that company that's like, oh, I can just go, I can go to the straight to the ingredient. And then it's like, all right, is this ingredient safe? I looked, it has food status. So it's so safe, it's not even a supplement. It's I can put that. All right, what is the toxic level? What if somebody chews the entire box? It so you would you would get a toxic level of caffeine before you ever got slithercide. They've yet to discover the upper limit of slitter side. So, so it was like all those boxes were being checked as I was digging in. And so then it just got to a point of being like, I mean, you know, probably like you with this podcast, it's like, all right, Nick, are you gonna have another good idea or are you gonna you're gonna do the damn thing? And so we we did the damn thing. But I will say, business wise, and I and I told you this, and hell, I'll share it with the audience. Probably a dumb decision, like in terms of if you were looking at profit margin and whatever, it'd be better to go with like caffeine and another ingredient because caffeine's cheap. Typically going with with caffeine from green coffee beans more expensive, but caffeine overall is still cheap. Slitricide, $1,400 per kilogram. It's like more expensive than wheeler, you know, than than uh Wagu, you know.

Host 2:49:13

So yeah, but I mean, you guys still found like a really decent cost. I think it's what 20 bucks for a box, and there's yep, um 16 pieces in there. And I know you're working uh on a plan to get it cheaper down the road because again, to your point, when your manufacturer makes it, they have to stop everything they're doing in the plant, only produce, you know, your stuff. So I hope my audience, and again, man, you know, I don't have any kind of marketing deal with Nick. Yeah, uh, I just believe in him and I and I believe in this product. I I don't, you know, this this isn't about money. But I hope you guys support it. One, uh, because it's awesome, it's a really good product, and I'm always looking for healthier alternatives, man. Especially you and I were talking last night in a world where you don't know what's right, you don't know what's true. Everybody's, you know, advertising is advertising, but you know, you can get you know miss misled quite a bit. So somebody with your kind of research and background, especially as a dietitian, like you can really, you know, stand behind uh, you know, the the research and stuff. Because I know you we were talking to me. This was like a couple years in the making, um, you know, where you did the research and tried it and and then found all the different you know manufacturing processes and then the gum and then the flavor and then you know sourcing the ingredients. So I I hope you guys get behind it and support it. I I know I'm I'm gonna order a bunch when he leaves today. I've only had two pieces and I'm freaking sold, bro.

Nick Barringer 2:50:27

Can we give a code? Oh, yeah. So we'll do we'll do 15% off Vanguard 15.

Host 2:50:32

Yeah, badass, man. So there you go. Yeah, and that's not something that we had previously discussed. So uh there you go.

Nick Barringer 2:50:38

The only podcast I've ever done a code for.

Host 2:50:40

Yeah, super cool, man. Um, well, yeah, I'm I'm uh I'm excited. Um yeah, I want to try it. I didn't take it before the gym, so I'm I'll I'll be experimenting all uh for the next couple weeks, just trying it out on different things. I mean, I was I haven't slept much lately, and and Nick tried to destroy my legs this morning. Um, so you know, we hit a hard workout, and again, man, you know, we took a break. I I popped one in, which I would normally drink, you know, a C4 with God knows what's in there. Uh I like C4, man. No, no smashing those dudes, but you know, you're getting 300 milligrams of caffeine or whatever else is in there that I can't spell. So, you know, the the gum, man, it's pretty pretty healthy alternative as well.

Nick Barringer 2:51:17

Well, and and the the main thing with the lower dose and what I like is like you can titrate up or titrate down. Like if you need to be, if you if you want the jack to buzz, you can take three pieces, four pieces, you know, you can go up. But that's the problem is like when you start off at 300 milligrams, you you can't go back down.

Host 2:51:32

Yeah. Uh well, let's transition from uh ramping our heart rates up to uh I really want to talk to about sleep and recovery, man. I I have recently learned in the last couple years of just how important sleep is, uh, not only to adults, but also to kids, man. Like how you know so formulative to the to the brain, cements memories, you know, your brain, you know, cleans itself out while you're asleep. Um how did, you know, there was a common saying for a long time in the military, and I used to say it when I was a senior NCO, like, hey, sleep's a crutch. Yes. But, you know, and we've all heard that mindset. But what for you personally started changing that mindset where you was like, hey man, sleep is super important?

Nick Barringer 2:52:09

I I'll tell you, um, and I don't know if it was Brad Nendle who did the original like Ranger School studies. You know, going to Ranger School and being in the Ranger Regiment, I started looking at the sleep research because the Army has a lot of research on sleep, right? We we sleep deprived people better than anybody, and particularly ranger school. And I'll tell you what what got me was there's a study, and I'm pretty sure it's it's Dr. Brad Nendle, who's now uh a director of a lab out at Pittsburgh. Um, but they when they pulled guys out of Florida phase, they looked at testosterone levels. And you can think these are young, you know, when you most people going through Ranger School, 23-year-old, 22-year-old, like hard charging, testosterone, probably a thousand. Like it was like 40. Like nanograms, like they were they were like basically like you know, four-year-old girl testosterone levels coming out of Florida phase. And I'm like, whoa. And then you start looking at all the sleep research, and it's like, yeah, you like you want to crush your testosterone, don't sleep. And um, that was probably the biggest thing we would use with Rangers. Like, so Rob Motz, he would give the sleep class, and you know, he gave the sleep class because by then there was a lot of literature showing comparing it to alcohol, like showing that if you don't sleep for 24 hours, it's like you're inebriated, which at the time I'm always like, but you have me drive home after staff duty for 24 hours. But anyway, but that but I digress. The army's the army has gotten smarter there. Um, but you know, Rangers, you know, they see that like, all right. But then I go, hey, it'll take your testosterone all of a sudden. Like I saw guys like sit up in class, like, oh wait, what? You know, and and so I I think that's uh got got me going. And then um who was it uh who really got me turned on? I don't know if it was Allison Brager, Dr. Allison Brager, if you guys don't follow her. Oh, we love Allison, she's coming on the podcast. Yeah, Doc Jock. Um, was with like the gymphatic system and you know the the cleaning process that happens when you sleep and and never understanding that and then like looking into it and be like, holy smokes, right?

Host 2:54:11

Yeah, that's um, I think I don't know if it was you telling me about a story of a soldier who you know wasn't sleeping and you know started failing his PT test.

Nick Barringer 2:54:19

Yeah, yeah. That that was me. I so I got I mean I got so so much into sleep and still I am in it, is um I had a you know a squad leader bring their their you know young ranger to me and he was like falling out of uh you know runs and wasn't you know wasn't doing it, but he was like a good kid, so they were trying to keep him from getting RFS, you know, getting relief for standards at Ranger Regiment. Because if you don't meet the physical standards, you know, you're gone. And I'm talking to him, and I don't know what I was like, I was talking to him about like he started talking about video games. He's like, Were you gaming? You know, and he's like, Yeah, you know, I go back to that. That's that's kind of how you would unwind at the end of the day. And I'm like, how much sleep are you getting? And homeboy was getting like three or four hours a night. And he's just like, it was sleep as a crush. He was a young kid, he's just like, yeah, whatever, you know. And I looked at him and they thought it was a nutrition issue. I was like, that's what I want you to do. We're not even gonna talk about nutrition. I'm like, I want you to quit getting, you know, can you at least get? And I wasn't even something crazy. I was like six, seven hours a night. And he's like, Roger, sure, whatever. Like, that's all I want you to do. I want to see you in a month, whatever. Come back. Kid comes back, he's like, Sir, this is unbelievable. I've runs, I have all this energy out, you know. Like he was, I mean, we tweaked his diet a little bit, but it wasn't the diet, he just wasn't sleeping, you know.

Host 2:55:33

I think we were talking about LeBron James, too, man, sleeping 11 to 12 hours a day sometimes. What's what's going on there?

Nick Barringer 2:55:39

The the more you're you're beaten up on your body and doing, I mean, so when I was in Afghanistan, you know, again, I'm I'm lucky in that like you know, I'm not a door kicker. So most of my job was when they were back doing the training with them, but then otherwise, you know, it was very non-physical stuff. So I could crush myself in the gym, and I was sleeping like 11 or 12 hours. I remember and it I felt like I was on drugs. Like, because you think like the chow over there, like consistent chow, I was getting consistent sleep, and I would just go annihilate myself in the gym, and it was like I couldn't not recover. And I was I was sleeping at least 10 hours, you know, because what else do you get to do?

Host 2:56:24

You know uh sleep tracking. Auras, what what what are we what are you looking for?

Nick Barringer 2:56:29

Um I I love uh I I love them all. I like the you know, I like an aura. I use an aura a lot. I'm very very comfortable with it with athletes and clients and myself because for me, I never like sleeping with something on my wrist. Right? I I don't, I just I'm not that that guy. Putting a ring on, forgetting about it. Also, the data you get from aura because if it's you know right up against your ring, I feel it's a little better. Are you wearing one now? Uh no, this is a wedding ring. I my aura ring's charging at home. I didn't I didn't bring it. Um but um it, you know, it gives good data. And and the the big thing with it is you know, what's the old saying is like, you know, you you measure or you know, you manage what you measure. And that's what I found with athletes. Like my UFC fighter, when we got him an aura ring and he started seeing how much he slept, and I'm like, hey man, you're a professional athlete. Five or six hours ain't gonna cut it. And I now I have like three or four years of aura data on him, and I can show like now we're up to like eight hours. And and he's credited with extending his career, you know, at the at the highest level of of just getting sleep. And and uh other people I've worked with. And what I like is, you know, I can log on, you can give me your access, and I can see, and then I have that accountability. I can be like, hey, Asher, what happened last night, bro? You you know, your your sleep's off. And then whiskey, bro. Well, yeah, I I could see that. Like I it was so funny. I uh one time, you know, he had had like wine with his wife, and I was like, Hey, uh, you had a drink last night. And he's like, get out of, you know, get out of my head. But I'm so when I start looking at your numbers, I can detect Patterns. I know when something's up. I was able to reach out and be like, hey, you probably know to get tested. You have COVID. I'm pretty sure. Really? Oh, when I was at West Point, we we used uh aura rings for that very thing. You could, you could see, yeah. Uh your your temperature goes up, your heart rate goes up, and your heart rate variability just tanks. So you're sick.

Host 2:58:27

That is something I have struggled with is my HRV. Um, especially somebody who's had heart issues, but it kind of really, you know, I I kind of try to train pretty consistently, eat pretty, you know, normal. And but my my HRV just kind of has wide swings. And so I've really tried to figure out how to dial that in. I haven't gotten anywhere close to figure that out.

Nick Barringer 2:58:45

It's tough. Uh, you know, you know, not eating like things that'll help. Not eating three hours before bed helps. That that helps. Uh, not drinking alcohol.

Host 2:58:57

Yeah, we were talking about last night. I mean, I don't even really drink that much anymore. I started using a Fitbit for quite a while, and and the swings were so obvious when I would drink alcohol that, like, you know, you you go from a green recovery to where you're not going to see green for the next two days because, you know, depending on how much you drank.

Nick Barringer 2:59:14

Well, and that's what people forget. I mean, I saw with one of my athletes, he had four beers over four hours. It took four days for his heart rate, his resting heart rate, and his heart rate rever a variability to return to baseline. That's crazy. So yeah.

Host 2:59:27

Makes sense though. Um, how much uh how much sleep are you recommending as kind of like a baseline? I know everybody's different, right?

Nick Barringer 2:59:34

So you can't give I mean, I like I like the seven to eight hours. Um again, I want to point out I I'm very basic when it comes to sleep. If if somebody's like really having sleep issues, I'm lucky enough. I reach out to Allison Brager and I'm like, hey, you know, you know, refer to to them because you know, my I know the basics, but um her, like Dr. Jamie Tarter, like they're they're the the neuroscientists, they're the sleep experts. Um, so I just basically regurgitate everything she says, and you know, trying to cool room, you know, all those factors. And then the nutrition, I can get, I've got my tricks there with uh like Kiwis before bed and you know, tart cherry juice, maybe, and and a few other things.

Host 3:00:15

Yeah, what's going on with you know sleep deprivation and and and what kind of strategies do you see? I mean, some of the things that came to my mind as I was kind of preparing to talk to you would um would be, you know, either whether it's deployments, you know, new parents with kids that aren't sleeping, or you know, even guys that work night shift, paramedics, uh, EMTs, cops, um what what would you kind of suggest, right? Everybody's different, but yeah.

Nick Barringer 3:00:40

So, so especially with with with adjusting to a new um kind of sleep cycle, uh I lean on a concept called you know chrononutrition, that your circadian rhythm tends to, you know, advice right like follow your nutrition. So if you can adjust your eating pattern to the time zone you're going to, you'll adapt more quickly. And then when you get to you know, said time zone or said schedule, if you can eat off that pattern, you'll adapt more quickly. So being very um methodical in how you're going about doing that. So, you know, for instance, if if you know you got to go to London for to compete or to go do something or or what have you, and you have time and you can start shifting an hour or two. I know it's not practical to completely flip your schedule, but just shift you know your meals an hour or two to be closer to London, et cetera. And then once you get to London, boom, you are you've, I don't care if you're hungry, eat when you know it's time to get back on that track. Your body will will switch uh more quickly.

Host 3:01:41

What uh what's a good cutoff time uh to stop eating and being in taking food? Three hours for bed, three hours.

Nick Barringer 3:01:47

That's what, yeah.

Host 3:01:48

And then um, I don't know if I asked you this earlier, bro. What about what's a good time for caffeine cutoff, right? Because I've I've heard if you drink or later caffeine later on the day can really jack up your sleep.

Nick Barringer 3:01:56

There's you know, studies that, you know, once you go like past noon, if you're going to bed at eight o'clock, it could affect it. It depends on the individual and like how you metabolize caffeine as well. Like, for instance, personally, I can have caffeine at 2 or 3 p.m. and I'll go to sleep like a baby. And I have my aura data like to prove it. I've looked at like I I this is. That's because your body's adapted. Yeah, I my body, I I process caffeine, you know, probably more quickly. Like I go through it, right? My wife, if dude, if she has a cappuccino at 12.01, like at lunch, she's up that night.

Host 3:02:34

Really?

Nick Barringer 3:02:35

Like she, you know, and caffeine affects her more differently. So she's probably like a uh kind of a slower metabolizer, so it's it stays in the system a little longer. And there's probably a bit of genetics, but then also just history of like I've you know, I I have always had I started drinking coffee when I was um in high school where she didn't start until she was in the army. And you know, I didn't start.

Host 3:03:00

I mean, I'll honestly, dude. I used to see those coffee drinkers and I wasn't a big I didn't even start drinking coffee until I was like 30. But good for you. I took pre-workout, bro. I rip fuel and jack 3D, rip it.

Nick Barringer 3:03:11

I mean, I mean, when I look at some of the stuff I did in high school, like I I had weightlifting first period. I would I would take two uh rip fuels and a cup of coffee. Yeah, and check it. And then when I was playing football, I would take, do you remember Vivorin? Oh, yeah. I was young, I was a young high school. That was like aspirin caffeine. I I would I would take I would take like a an aspirin, ephedra, and some Vivyrin at halftime at a football game. Like I would I'd just be like, eh, it's not I know. I look back, I'm like, I am so glad I didn't like just like all over.

Host 3:03:44

KO. Yeah. Just want to talk to a little bit about you know tactical athlete uh type stuff. What's kind of some uh you know, the nutrition um stuff that you would you know recommend dudes, one that are both training for you know, buds, SFAS, Ranger School. Um, what what's your kind of advice for selection uh preparation?

Nick Barringer 3:04:02

One, can I give a shout out to somebody who prepares more people than anybody? Yeah. Stu Stu Smith. You know Stu Smith, you follow Stu Smith, you should follow Stu Smith. Stu Smith is like before anybody was doing tactical athletes or doing training, he's a Navy SEAL, graduated uh Annapolis. He's trained more people. I've run into like more SEALs, more um Rangers, more SF dudes that are like, oh yeah, I used his training program. Um uh your guy, Shipley, that used his training program. So anyway, like go go go find Stu Smith. Go look at his his training because he he's not gonna hurt you. There's another guy, uh uh Kevin Edgerton out of San Antonio, who does 18 Alpha Fitness, which is also really well. So, so because I I think you want to, like we talked about, like somebody smart, somebody who's who's either uh a long timber or done it, or you know, and they've they've trained people and you're not gonna get hurt. And what I like about both those guys is you know, they're both over the age of 40 and still getting after it. And and you know, like when you're that age, you respect that a lot more because you know all the the things that happen. So if you've been through all that training, you're holding together, you know what you're doing. Um, nutrition-wise, um, basics, you know, you you can use basic nutrition in terms of I want to see at least three colors on your plate, um, some high quality protein. I could get into the macros, you know, with them that depending on that. Hydration is really gonna be big, but we're we're going for the long term because again, it's not just about eating to perform, but it's eating to stay healthy because what can get you uh uh, you know, not to pass those schools if you get sick, if you get injured. So, you know, kind of kind of looking at that.

Host 3:05:46

What's your thoughts on uh electrolytes, man? I'm I'm really big on them. Um I think there's a lot of study behind them, especially when you start doing sweating. I I give them to my kids in the summer when the they feel snarly.

Nick Barringer 3:05:57

Yeah, being here in Texas, Georgia, like it's huge. Did do the average person like you know, going to the air conditioning gym need them? I don't know, probably not. But if if you're sweating heavy, um then yes, you do uh certainly it it can help uh speed up hydration. Now, some things I do want to point out you need sodium and glucose because there are electrolytes that are just like pushing sodium, but you have a sodium glucose transporter. So you need if you want to maximize rehydration as fast as possible, you need sodium and glucose because there is a little bit of a sugar phobia, I feel like. Um, like there, there's an electrolyte beverage I use or worked with people and they'll see and they'll be like, oh, it's got seven grams of sugar in it. Well, you know, it's like, yeah, you you need that to maximize. Now, if if you don't, and you're just, you know, again, coming from the gym, you worked out 40, 50 minutes, you're rehydrating, water's fine, because you get electrolytes from the food you eat, right? Which is great. Um, but otherwise, if I'm going over an hour um or I'm sweating heavy, I I use something that, you know, 600 milligrams of sodium, you know, again, maybe like seven grams of sugar, some magnesium, you know, and and then the biggest factor taste. It's I like lemon flavored. I don't want berry. I don't want some frou-fru taste. I just want lemon flavored. And so that's what I use. And so I would, I would tell people, you know, find, hey, find, find what you like that follows the World Health Organization's kind of protocol for a rehydration solution and and go with it.

Host 3:07:26

Uh, I mean, you know, most of these selection places they can't take any supplements. Um, do you do you think that makes sense nutritionally? Or are they just trying to put everybody on the same playing field?

Nick Barringer 3:07:36

From my, and it's and it's been a minute. I'm gonna date myself. For some of the higher level selections, my understanding is you can take supplements. I don't know if that's the case. I've I've been out of that world. Um, I I do think it's it's a little silly. I mean, I get it if you're gonna control for all variables, um, but you know, I I think let the people make good decisions, right? If if if that person is is that committed to the mission that they want to optimize their performance and and bring things that are legal and safe and all like that, then like like then why not let them? Because, you know, downrange, a lot of times you're gonna be able to do that, right? You're gonna pack. I mean, I I know guys who went on target with rippets in their pocket, you know, like I mean, yeah, right? Like what it's I mean, I mean, let's not like act like we're we're we're not gonna use that. So, so might as well, you know, uh, and I know people don't like the phrase, like train as you fight or or whatever.

Host 3:08:35

Weight loss before selection, safe strategies, kind of what to avoid.

Nick Barringer 3:08:38

I mean, one, if you if you need it, yeah, that that's one thing. Okay, let's let's sort that out, work with somebody, look at body composition. I want to track body composition, I just want to track what's on the scale. And then, you know, you know, look at your numbers, load carriage and all like that. I I'm really I'm really big on making data decisions. Like, why do you want to lose weight? All right, is it a body fat thing? Are we looking for speed? Are we looking for, and then, and then really track that that metric. Um, because otherwise we're we're we're guessing. Yeah.

Host 3:09:10

What about maintaining muscle during selection? And I'm not talking about like body, you know, I'm talking about bodybuilding stuff, you know, but you know, guys are coming, uh, you know, guys coming out of ranger schools wrecked, you know, long course, you know, whatever. Um, is it possible? Should you even worry about it?

Nick Barringer 3:09:25

I mean, ranger school situation I can tell you is like eat as much as you can, you know, there. I have some like theories, like if the army ever wanted to reach out to me, because one of the things with Ranger School, and this this was more with GWAT, probably not now. You have Rangers graduating and then they're getting deployed pretty soon thereafter. And I and I saw that. And so I was able to do a study with Will Conchrite where I looked at Ranger School recovery, like when they got back to baseline levels. And we were it was it was a really hard study because one because that was one of the problems was we followed the guys, like we we did testing on them pre-range pre-ranger school, then we did it immediately post, but then they would get scattered to the four winds, like they were either deployed or whatever, like doing follow-up. But for the ones we were able to follow up with, you know, I think we we followed up like uh was it 12 weeks or whatever? Like they still weren't back to to baseline uh physically. So it takes a while. And and so my thought is why are we doing the sleep deprivation and and and nutrition deprivation? It's it's a stressor. We could use something like essential amino acids possibly, where you're gonna be hungry, but we're preserving some of that lean muscle mass so you're not as wrecked at the end, so you can you can recover more quickly and get back in the fight. Like I there, there's there's part of me, and I would have to, I I internally I can't think of the argument, and I haven't had any friends I'll bounce it off of like counter that. I'm like, all right, if the stress is you need me to be hungry and you need me to be sleep deprived, I could give you oral essential amino acids uh instead of food, like I'm doing in those replaces. That would help preserve some of the lean muscle mass, but you're still gonna be hungry because it's not gonna be like drinking something. Um you're you're still gonna be sleep deprived, but at the end you could recover a little better.

Host 3:11:17

Awesome. Um, post-selection recovery, how do you rebuild after severe deficits, especially like you know, ranger school, search school?

Nick Barringer 3:11:24

That would be okay, let's let's get, you know, let's get the protein, let's get the uh uh, you know, the nutrition back on. But then I would always tell guys, you know, you've got a window of where go crazy because you're gonna you're gonna get out of ranger school and you're gonna go, I don't think ranger burger or four wins is still a thing, but like you're gonna go to Applebee's, you're gonna crush like all the things, right? You give yourself about a week of that, but then you gotta start tailoring down because I I saw like guys gain quite a bit of body fat and and and some it's hard to come back from. Uh so you know, give yourself a a window of like, all right, I can eat everything and then start tightening the diet back up, um, trying to get the sleep dialed back in, start introducing kind of you know the resistance training again. But I would say give yourself that first week just to go, just to get it all out of your system, you know.

Host 3:12:54

Great advice. And then um, you know, I just a couple, you know, you've kind of hit on some of it, so you know, you these might all kind of get combined, but you know, maybe some of the special considerations like ruck marketing nutrition, right? Because that's just such a pound on your body, uh, especially when you're carrying heavy weight, heavy loads under under tension for long distances.

Nick Barringer 3:13:12

Yeah, again, that that's gonna be a lot of basic nutrition. But then if you're trying to, if you're trying to ruck as fast as possible, that's gonna be a lot of fueling strategies, right? Just like an ultra runner. Um, that back to that 30 to 60 grams of carbs with the hydration, you know, staying on top of your hydration. Um, I would have guys, you know, if you're if you're training up for something, every time you do a ruck, weigh yourself before and after to get your sweat rate. And then if after an event you've lost more than 1% of your body weight, it could affect your performance. So I'd be like, all right, we need to up our hydration so you don't do that. So, you know, again, for every pound you lose, 16 to 20 ounces of fluid and plug that in.

Host 3:13:52

And that brings me to another question of water, right? So a lot of people are drinking like, you know, reverse osmosis water and all the stuff where all of the nutrients are pulling out of the water. So there's nothing really to get past that gut barrier. Do you recommend putting like anything in the water, sea salt, like just something?

Nick Barringer 3:14:08

No, I mean, I I just drink

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Nick Barringer 3:14:09

the water because you should be eating something as well. But like, and that's that's usually where where folks are getting a lot of their salt, you know, whether they got pretzels or things like that. Certainly, if you're like going back to the electrolyte, if you're like, man, I can't eat anything when I'm rucking, then we definitely we want an electrolyte beverage with with more carbohydrates in it.

Host 3:14:26

Night ops, man, fueling up when you're when you're up all night, kind of the same principles.

Nick Barringer 3:14:31

Yes. Um, the same principles. And then, you know, we get into stimulation. Um caffeine, uh, you know, could could be a benefit. You know, rhodiola, solidricide could be a benefit, uh, cognitive-wise. Um, even the beetroot juice, the beetroot powder, because there was a uh paper where they did a serial subtraction test after they did beetroot juice.

(Cont.) They Said "We've Been Fine Without You." He Proved Them Wrong. | Dr. Nick Barringer

Nick Barringer 3:14:52

And that all that is is like you get a number and you subtract by seven, you go as fast as possible. They look for accuracy and how fast you can do it. And one of the things that beetroot does is you think of azodilation, cerebral blood flow, so better blood flow to the brain. So that could be also a benefit um, you know, kind of with those the nitric oxide supplements as well for for those uh for those night ops.

Host 3:15:14

Can you talk about the performance pyramid and and maybe break down some of the layers of kind of what that is and and how it Yeah, I mean, when I look at a performance pyramid of like, okay, what are the basics?

Nick Barringer 3:15:24

I would honestly, and and think about this as a dietitian, I'd put sleep at the bottom. Like, like sleep drives, you know, the the things. I mean, you think about it, you can go, you know, if you really wanted to, 30 days without eating. Wouldn't be great, but you could do it. You'll die if you do that with sleeping, you know, with within a week. So I would I would put uh sleep at the bottom, making sure you're getting that, you know, seven to eight hours, what have you. Um, and then the next, you know, uh kind of layer would be nutrition. We would come in and then hey, are we getting enough fruits? We get enough vegetables, we get in color, we're getting lean sources of protein, hydration as well in there. And then, you know, a smart training program, we would go up, or are we doing, are we training like we should? We're not overtraining, we're, we're, we're following the the you know, the principles of progression, um, all that. Then, you know, some recovery strategies. Are we doing uh sauna? Are we doing compression? Are we doing, yeah, whatever? And then like at the very top, that's when I would actually introduce dietary supplements and and make sure like if you want to maximize this like then and only then when you get all those factors. And where I see, especially the young kind of tactical athletes, they over-index the dietary supplements.

Host 3:16:35

Oh, yeah. No, for sure. That's why it's a what a half a billion dollar market, if more. How do you assess someone's nutritional starting point when they're coming to see you?

Nick Barringer 3:16:42

Uh, first and foremost, you know, if we can look at like body composition, where they're at, where they want to go, questions like what are your goals? What are you trying to do? And then now I've really, I would say the past few years, blood work. That is like it's and and what's so exciting, what's so great uh for both the end user and the practitioners is I can get you blood work panels without going through a physician now. Like, like I can, you know, it's it's and and so it it empowers the individual a little more. So I have that individual go get their their blood work done, and then that way I can go through it and I'm not looking for disease states. So if you're you know, if your A1C was like eight, I'd be like, Asher, you need to go see a doctor based on this. Looks like you have diabetes, you know, or whatever. Um, but where I'm looking is like, okay, where can we, where can we dial things in? Where can we optimize performance? What are the what are the performance ranges? And so that's that's that's where I start out. I'm looking at, okay, what are your goals? What are you trying to do? Um, health history, your your background, what is your current nutrition state? What are you eating, you know, your body composition and your blood work? And then from that, we we develop a plan.

Host 3:17:55

Awesome, man. Um, what what are your thoughts on periodization? You know, should nutrition change with different phases of training?

Nick Barringer 3:18:02

Yes, 100%. I I think too long, you know, people thought was like, all right, I'm gonna eat a 3,000 calorie diet or 2,500 calorie diet or whatever. And like they ate that every day, but their day constantly was changing. So I'm very big of like trying to match my nutrition with like what I'm doing. Um I I, you know, we've talked, I travel and give talks. So if it's a travel day where I'm on a plane all day and I I don't, you know, very rarely it happens, but maybe I don't get a workout in or whatever. Like that's a day I'm not eating a lot. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna intentionally eat less that day because it's not versus if it's a day I was really active, I'm gonna eat more. And it's just adjusting and doing that.

Host 3:18:42

In season versus off-season, what what changes nutritionally, you know, especially for athletes, right? So, you know, you've got the the the football player uh maybe in college, maybe in high school or or you know, whatever. And then, you know, they have the off-season or it's maybe not they're not training as much or as hard.

Nick Barringer 3:18:58

Same thing to your point, or we just you know, fine-tuning macros or uh Yeah, you you're gonna you're gonna be, you know, I I think it's important because again, we're we're humans, we're not machines. So I think psychologically and physiologically, it's important to take our foot off the gas, right? And you know, maybe we we just train for fun or you know, take some time, loosen up on the nutrition a little bit. Yeah, especially depending on like the athlete. Like again, a fighter, if you're trying to make like a weight class or it's really you got to be really strict or dialed in, it's like you need to have those times where you can kind of be like, man, I can have some pizza, barbecue, relax, right? And kind of reset. And then same with the training. If you're in a camp and you're, you know, you're training really hard, you're doing jujitsu, you're doing kickboxing, you're doing boxing, um, you're doing your strength training, you're doing all that like you need some time to just be like, all right, let's let's let's take our foot off the gas and and recover a little bit. So I think it's important to have those breaks in there, but be intentional and know, okay, I'm doing this break, and then I've got this event coming up down the road. I need to train. What's what's challenging with the the tactical athlete, like, you know, line of work you you come from and stuff is you don't always know you're like you don't have an in-season, off-season. And so trying to find that rhythm is is is hard. Um, so so that's where a lot of the work um would be kind of the uh the nonlinear periodization you might see, or the undulating periodization where you have like different stuff going on within a week, uh, because you never know. You you can never let your your endurance slide or your strength slide because you might need those. So you gotta hit those, you gotta keep hitting those throughout the year.

Host 3:20:40

Yeah, great point.

Nick Barringer 3:20:40

Um

Host 3:20:41

And plus, man, I mean, to your point, you know, I think dudes should should have buy-in to their own program, right? And so like I remember, you know, one of my jobs, I traveled a lot, dude. So um, or you know, I worked surveillance shifts, whatever. I kept stuff in the car, right? Like you you gotta plan, you know, sometimes you don't get a say on call-outs or whatever, but um, you know, just having healthy options in the car. Because when you don't have healthy options, yeah, that's it's your ass is going to Chick-fil-A or you know, something.

Nick Barringer 3:21:09

Well, the more decisions you can, yeah, you you can take away from yourself, the better you're gonna do.

Host 3:21:14

Behavior changes, how do you actually get people to do what you recommend? I mean, I know you pre you prefer performance athletes, so obviously there's buy-in.

Nick Barringer 3:21:22

But I mean, I've worked with like some some like CEOs and like, you know, some some guys just trying to get back in shape. And and a lot of it, it and that's where I feel good uh about where I am with AI because they're you know, fears like you you can get a lot of great information. You go on AI, chat GPT, it'll give you some nutrition information, right? But that's this this relationship that I that I build with the people I work with and the trust. Um, that's where it's so important, where you know, they it's about accountability and they don't want to let Nick down because I'm I'm I'm their friend, I'm their biggest cheerleader. I want them to succeed. And so that's helping with the behavior change. The other thing is, you know, framing it like positively and like having goals you're going after than things you're avoiding. Uh, where I feel early on in my nutrition care career, I probably made that mistake where I would talk about all the foods you need to avoid. That that and the psychology research is not as powerful. Um, whereas if I tell you what foods you should chase, and then naturally, if you're chasing more of those foods, you're probably gonna eat less of the other ones. And and I've I've been lucky in that I've um partnered, we haven't done as much work as I would like, but with a psychologist, um, actually from Ranger Regiment, and we're looking at ways to leverage personality with nutrition choices. And uh really, I I think that's not being done a lot, and I think it there's a lot to be done there, and so I'm excited.

Host 3:22:51

I didn't I didn't really consider that. Um, you know, what are some of the quick wins? Like what changes give you the fastest results? I almost hate asking this because I feel like in a society we're always looking for the pill, the the whatever. But you know, what are some of the the things that, you know, when guys make, you know, or women uh make you know this kind of small tweaks that you you start seeing real real results.

Nick Barringer 3:23:12

I mean, again, we'll go back to the sleep. If you're not sleeping, you're listening to this, sleep. Give yourself a week of sleep, seven, eight hours, tell me how you feel. You're you're gonna feel better, right? Then I would go, you know, to the hydration. Um, just because so many people underdo it. Um, uh, you know, my wife, she listens to this, she'll get it, you know, because nine times out of ten, you know, she has a headache. I've been client like, if you had any fluid today, you know, and then she'll drink and she feels better. I mean, it's it's it's natural. There was even uh a paper where they exposed individuals to a stress event and looked at cortisol levels. Those who either had one liter of water that day or four liters, four liters, they had 30% less cortisol response. So just your hydration status, how you, you know, uh a stressful event impacts you. So hydration would be the other like quick one of like everybody listen to this. Take your body weight, cut it in half, drink that number of ounces in a day. That's your goal for the next week. Tell me how you feel. Um, after that, let's let's look at uh how often are you eating out. Can we reduce that by half you know, they're baked foods? And and if you're listening to this and you don't cook, man, meal prep services, they're worth it. They I you cost them out. They are I have no financial ties with any meal prep services. I just work with a lot of busy people and I've tried them. I've used Factor, Trifecta, whatever, you know, and they're great. You know, they're they're they're great for what they are. I've used factor meals, they're actually pretty good. I was actually shocked at how good those things are. Yeah, I mean, and and you don't have to think again, like I'm when when I had it, uh, because I used Trifecta and Factor a lot at West Point, because funny enough, where I work, there was no, there was no chow hall. It was kind of isolated, there's no um food nearby. So it's like, all right, am I gonna get my car and drive to Subway or whatever? No, I just I would grab the factors, I throw it in the fridge, and I didn't have to think. All right, heat it up. I've got my protein, I got my vegetables, I got everything. So if if you can automate your nutrition, that's the other biggest thing, I'd say. So sleep, hydration, um, and then you know, automating your nutrition, eating out less.

Host 3:25:18

Um, I wanted to talk a little bit. You you were present during some pretty historic dietary guideline changes slash reset. Uh RFK Jr. uh recently kind of signed some some policy into place, and you happened to get up there. Um, you were in DC, I think when he signed it.

Nick Barringer 3:25:36

Yeah, yeah. I was at the um HHS uh Health and Human Services uh building there. Um I, you know, I give all credit to Dr. Gabriella. I mean, you know, she she invited me um as as her guest, and then we got there and I found out I was gonna be up on stage right there, and then where they they had assigned seats, and I was like right behind RFK and and you know, the podium. So wow, like it was it was awesome. It was an awesome event.

Host 3:26:04

Why was it important for you to be there or what was the significant of that event?

Nick Barringer 3:26:07

It's been a long time coming, and we we talked a little bit about this at dinner, but there is some contentiousness with the the way the environment is with the new uh food guide pyramids and certain populations and the nutrition and and health. And um all I ask is, you know, people whatever you think about the messenger or or what have you is like just look at the actual changes, right? And and what happened was the protein uh you know guidelines increased, which I've never met a dietitian over the years who thought that the current guidelines we had of that you know 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight was optimal. And that's what it was just enough to keep you from being sick potentially, but it wasn't optimal. So I think we finally got that. And so that's something to be celebrated and um you know to be embraced. Also, the over-underlying message of eat more real foods and eat less processed foods. Again, I I I don't understand like where you could find like a problem with that. That that's a that that's an overall uh a good message. Um, you know, there is some uh debate about like uh saturated fat, even though they stayed at the 10% to keep that in as how much saturated fat really affects cardiovascular health. There is some some uh debate there um within the science and the literature and you know whether uh you know beef tallow is is better than seed oils or or whatever. I and to me, I I, you know, I I read, I certainly read the literature, but I'm not gonna dive into that in terms of I'm like, all right, let's look at the big picture of what we're doing. We are getting people to eat more protein, right? We're we're getting people to eat more fruits and vegetables, um, and we're getting people to eat more whole foods, and we're bringing in who also was at that meeting, Secretary Rollins of the USDA. Um, guess who also was up on stage? A farmer, right? A cattle rancher, I think. Like this is this is what's been missing because we need to empower those those ranchers and the people that make our food. Like, why was corn in everything we ate? Why did we have high fructose corn syrup? Why were uh you know, uh the salmon that was farmed fed corn and all the the the uh the chickens they're fed corn and the pigs and the the uh the beef and all like that, it was like because it was subsidized, right, by the government. So so farmers were encouraged to raise more corn and feed more corn. Now we're we're kind of flipping it. And when we talk about like getting people to eat beef and to eat chicken, what I think is gonna happen is you go to the grocery store right now, it's price prohibitive for a lot of people to get good meat, especially red meat. Especially, yes. So now that the USDA guidelines that drives the military and purchasing, that drives all the school, you know, uh foods and purchasing, that is gonna create an environment where it can actually lower the price so it can be less prohibitive for people to eat healthy. That's what I don't think is getting talked about is the economics of how this can benefit. I mean, you talk about like warfighters with the basic daily food allowance and what you can get at the dining facilities. We're gonna see that improved. Um, so so I think the approach, regardless of how you feel about the messenger, is the right approach and has been long overdue.

Host 3:29:36

I don't know how people don't like RFK, man. The dude was he's about in the middle as you get, you know, he started off on the left and you know, he got picked up by the right. And let's, you know, people are focused more on politics than outcome. And that's what's frustrating.

Nick Barringer 3:29:49

Um Yeah, for for this, I, you know, again, I I won't dive into the pods. I just know the food. Hey, I I will say this uh, you know, uh uh about him, and and I I think this is no secret, and I've seen in person, like he's what, 70 years old? Holy smokes, man. Dude is solid. Like he's in great shape. And I know that's not a pass for everybody to be like, oh, just because he's in shape, does he know who he's talking about? But I'm like, he he's obviously passionate about this. He he's you know, practicing what he's preaching. Like, I I look at him and I'm like, man, if I looked at this 70, I'm winning, you know. Like, um, but but again, I I I think what's what's happening that is exciting and more importantly, is what I saw is all the other players being brought in, incorporated again, you know, getting the the ranchers involved, getting the the the farmers involved, um, so you know they can start making the the food. And and I mean, I I have the high hopes sometime for the military. I mean, I I wonder, like like Fort Hood here. I know there's farms around Fort Hood, but I know they're probably not getting their food from those farmers. Why not? Like, let's figure out a way where the local farmers around these bases are feeding those soldiers. Like, you don't think those farmers take pride in that? You don't think that you don't think the service members you get a better quality probably piece of meat than one you know that's been raised, not in downtown clean, a little outside on the farms. Yeah.

Host 3:31:14

Um, did you get a chance to meet with Secretary Kennedy at all?

Nick Barringer 3:31:16

I did not. I know it would have been much cooler if I did.

Host 3:31:19

Um, did you meet with Secretary Rollins?

Nick Barringer 3:31:21

I I got to meet her for one uh, you know, kind of brief moment there at the end. And the biggest reason for that is Gigum, Aggie. She she's a fellow Aggie. Nice. Um, so so yeah, I mean, I mean that's the other thing is like AM, uh, you know, they they've got the connections when it comes to agriculture. Yeah, they're we're we're big Aggies around here.

Host 3:31:43

Um did you guys what was you guys a part of any meetings while you're guys up in uh DC other than the signing?

Nick Barringer 3:31:49

You know, about it was yeah, it was it was more the the signing. I will I will tell you the biggest, you know, kind of one of the bigger treats I got was uh you know, Dr. Lyons mentor, Dr. Don Lehman, who's one of the architects for this. Um I got to have dinner with him. Oh wow. And, you know, of course I'm just nerding out talking about protein research. And and what a great job that you know she did for champion to get him on this committee, because this guy's you know forgotten more protein research than than most people do. And so it was very important to get him on that, I feel like, committee to get that change. There was other great protein researchers, Dr. Heather Lighty and other other folks on there. Um, but but I think you know, to have a name like Don Lehman on there was was was huge and so really, really made a difference.

Host 3:32:39

U Yeah, I've heard something, and I don't know if you can speak to this at all, but I've heard nearly 90% of healthcare spending goes towards like chronic disease.

Nick Barringer 3:32:47

Is it really that bad? I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but it but it wouldn't be surprising because I mean, like you look at our healthcare system, but you you've heard that the cliche, it's like, oh, it's a sick care system. I mean, that's what we're focused at, right? We're focused at on treating the symptoms and getting you out of there. You know, some somebody comes in um with high cholesterol, they don't typically get too much into diet and exercise, just the physician. Now you might go see a dietitian after or whatever, but it's usually like, hey, here's some statins, be on your way. Here's some, you know, and and be on your way. So so it wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me um when we look at spending.

Host 3:33:25

Yeah, I mean, you I we were heard, we were here. I mean, you've heard the recruiting numbers are low. Um, and you know, it's because people can't pass, you know, yeah, three three out of four.

Nick Barringer 3:33:35

Three out of four military-age individuals uh can't can't make the physical standards. And you know, the military to their credit, they tried um, oh I forgot the name of it. You know what I'm talking about? The the pre the pre-basic thing. Oh yeah. Yep. You know, trying to and there's the late entry program or whatever. Yeah, you know, they they've tried some things and but but but there's even some questions on the data on like how successful that was. Like, you know, they they they they took people in that were beyond the standard, and that, you know, whatever four, eight weeks, and then they send them that they still had a high failure rate. And and here's here's the issue with it it's not the military's fault. You can't expect the military to fix what you know 18 years of poor nutrition and activity and childhood created in 10 weeks, in 12 weeks, in 20 weeks, maybe even a year, right? Like it and that's what mindset and oh yeah, and and and that's where we got it, and that's why, again, why I'm excited about these standards and and some of the things they're doing when they start talking about the school systems, is that problem of three out of four not being able to get recruited, that doesn't start in the military, that starts back in middle school, high school. We've got to start addressing the issue there.

Host 3:34:50

So uh, I mean, do you think that nutrition has now become like a national security slash defense issue?

Nick Barringer 3:34:57

I mean, uh yeah, I I think I think it has, and it has been. I mean, you know, even look at um not to get, but like there wasn't it a few uh years back that, you know, there was uh some Chinese operatives with a fungus that affects that. I mean, you know, an army marches on its belly, those rules have not changed um over time. So it is. And so again, empowering our farmers to have those those uh systems in place so we have a robust food system that makes healthy whole foods. And that's why I love the idea of again local farms being able to feed our military. So there's not just one centralized system that if it goes down, we we have a problem.

Host 3:35:40

Um, you know, I think that's they they said that's what contributed to the rise in beef prices. There's only like two or three processing centers in the nation.

Nick Barringer 3:35:48

Yeah, it's it's very, it's very centralized, right? And and so, you know, if you look at what we've gotten really good at, we've got good at producing a large amount of food in a small amount of area, um, which definitely has some benefits, right? I mean, that's what makes us a superpower. Um, but I think when we look at the long-term nutrition and health and being preventative, it might be better to take some of that money and empower those smaller farmers to help contribute to their community, you know, one of which again is that that military base, that's part of your community. Well, especially if our adversaries take out one or two of the packaging plants. Right.

Host 3:36:26

Yeah. Um very interesting. What do you, I mean, what were the main changes do you think that, you know, that HSS or uh, you know, food, food and drug administration or whatever is doing with this shift in, you know, the the dietary guidelines. And why was that so important in your in your opinion?

Nick Barringer 3:36:46

Um, well, again, what's gonna happen? Because because I've heard the counter, right? The counter to some of it is like, well, nobody was following the the food guide pyramid before. And and to be clear, the food guide pyramid hasn't been used in like 11 years. It was my plate. My plate was what was being used. It was it was a plate. And it was it's a pretty good design, right? It was a plate, and I even like that. And there's been some people who've taken the pyramid and broke it down into what a plate would look like, because I feel like visualization um is better. But what regardless of whether people follow it or not, what it's gonna affect is again the economics. It's gonna affect the school systems, it's gonna affect the military. And so if we can shift to getting better quality, more whole food, less processed foods, better quality foods in the military and the school systems, that that's a win. That's that's gonna uh affect national security, that's gonna affect national health. Um, and then it's also gonna affect if the government is, you know, the scale that the government buys these things and and requiring people to produce them, we're gonna see it at the grocery store. We're gonna go to HEB, and that, you know, um that steak is gonna be cheaper, right? So, so so there, there's that's the piece that where there is a little bit of ignorance, even in my nutrition colleagues, where they're like, well, nobody followed it anyway, you know, you know, it's whatever. It's like, no, the the economics that the the the tail that follows that is gonna get to the regular consumer.

Host 3:38:09

I know we talked a little a lot, you know, we've alluded to it throughout the podcast. Well, what are what are your thoughts on alcohol from a dietary standpoint? I know it's gonna be controversial, but I don't care, it's important.

Nick Barringer 3:38:20

It's gonna be sad and it's gonna be depressing. Uh, you know, first let me let me say this in in that, you know, I am not, I don't drink now, but my dissertation was fueled on bourbon. Like I love bourbon. I love like Eagle Rare. Oh yeah, but you know, uh Blanton's, like, yeah, you know, uh, I loved microbrews, um, IPAs, uh, you know, Guinness, all the things. Great. Nothing, nothing's better than coming home at the end of the day and like a cold. So so embedded in our culture, right? Especially, yeah, the military, the dining ins, the, you know, all that. Um, but just looking at the literature, uh, I, you know, I had to to take a step back. One of the things I do in my class, because I I'll get people that are like really uh into looking at artificial sweeteners, they get nervous about artificial sweeteners. And I'll be like, all right, if I told you that aspartame is responsible for 20,000 cancer-related deaths per year and 80,000 cancer-related diagnosis, would you quit consuming aspartame or diet coke or whatever? And everybody says yes. And then I'm like, okay, it's not aspartame, it's alcohol. And and and so it's wild. And that was what how I framed it. I'm like, man, if this was something else, I would be like, I'm not gonna do it. But because it's alcohol, so I had to kind of reflect that. And then the the kind of the the straw that broke the Campbell's back for me was wearing the aura ring and doing what what you experienced, where I'd be hanging out with my kids and I'm gonna have like one beer, one beer. And I would see my sleep numbers, and I'd be like, no way. My kids were kicking me at night. Something it was it's something else. Something else, something else. And then finally it came down to where, you know, I kept repeating the experiment. I'm like, oh man, this is and then I quit drinking the beer, and then my sleep numbers shot back up. And so I had to make that that call and be like, hey, is this really helping me or is it hurting me? And so for me, I've gone, and and you know, part of it too is just the ritual. Like, I don't really need the buzz. So I've been able to find a lot of good, like non-alcoholic beers that I've, you know, and for and for me that works, and I know that doesn't work for everybody.

Host 3:40:24

Yeah, no, I've gotten, I mean, again, dude, it used to be you'd be good luck on finding a non-alcoholic beer. Yeah, it was O'Dools, and yeah, that's it. But now, I mean, I know in Texas grocery stores there's a whole section, and there's some of the stuff's pretty good, low calorie. Um, so if it's really that, you know, habitual thing, although I I sometimes in my mind I'm like, you know, it's it reminds me of people drinking decaffeinated coffee. I'm just like, hey, bro, what's the point of that? But then, you know, then it be you know again, coffee is a ritual. Sometimes people have too much caffeine. So yeah, man. I mean, I I think it's I think it's an important thing to talk about, especially on a channel that's you know, heavily male, uh heavily military culture, L E um type folks. It's a it's a big part of our thing, but it's alcohol isn't doing anybody any favors. And I'm not saying, hey man, never drink again. Yeah. But you know, if you're struggling with health things, you know, get an order ring, get a Fitbit, and don't trust what I'm saying. Get your baseline and then drink and see what happens. It's really hard to ignore.

Nick Barringer 3:41:21

Um yeah, and even if it's it's reducing, because I'll tell you, I've you know, I've got a good buddy's like, bro, I'm not giving up my IPAs. Cool. But you know what he does? He he'll he'll like drink a regular IPA and then he can't drink another regular one, he'll drink a non-alcoholic one. And so he'll rotate. And so from that, he's cut his you know, alcohol intake in half, which is great. So that's a win, you know.

Host 3:41:41

So yeah, how do you deal with that as a dietitian where people you know are kind of fighting to give it up but they're willing to make concessions?

Nick Barringer 3:41:47

I mean, are you saying that I meet people where they're at? Yeah, I meet people where they're at. Like I again, like him, like I knew he wasn't gonna start drinking alcohol. And I'm not asking everybody to do it, I'm just asking people to be aware and maybe look back and reduce. And and if you reduce it, okay. Um, you know, that's the one. It's kind of like I, you know, I would never ask any somebody to stop eating pizza. I love pizza. But, you know, if you if your go-to dinner every night is dominoes, all right, let's let's reduce that. Let's let's talk about, you know, let's talk about that. But but I'm all about like let's let's make change, you don't have to be perfect. Like, let's make little changes. And over time, um, you know, those kind of create the the big big movements. Yeah. Um, what are your thoughts on like sports drinks, like Gatorade and and all that stuff? But I mean, back to you know, it goes in with the lecturer. It's like most people, you don't need them as a beverage, and I and I'm that's where I kind of watch people is like if you're just drinking Gatorade because. You want something flavored, just get some like crystal light or something, some flavored water, a Meo. You know, because I get it. Some people get tired of water. You want to flavor it? Go that. Because those calories do add up. Um, and what the research shows is we do not register drinking calories like we do eating food. So there was a paper, and this was years ago, um, where they fed people a certain amount of like gummies and then they of you know calories and they had them drink that same amount like sugar water. And they found when they fed the people, even eating the gummies, they would eat less food throughout the day. They would kind of adjust their caloric intake because it's like your body registered, hey, I took in those calories. Whereas when you when you drink it, you just eat the same. Great point. Uh, energy drinks, dude. This is gonna be hard for me to hear, but whatever. No, I mean, I and I've been vibed of energy drinks. I wouldn't go above, you know, hey, let's try to keep it like 200 milligrams, you know, 300 milligrams is pretty high or anything over because you can get some like weird off-label ones that aren't the main brands that go up there. Um be careful of that. Uh be, you know, look at the the polypharmacy in terms of like all the herbs and stuff, the proprietor, especially if you're on medication. You you want to know um, you know, something that has ginseng in it might not be good for everybody, right? And and and so look at those medication contraindications. Uh, if you want to look at just like kind of the purest energy drink that's out there, I have no affiliation with them. I mean, probably is Red Bull, right? It's like caffeine, tarine, yeah, you know, uh sucralose if you do the like the the the sugar-free. Um, that's pretty simple. And and the dosing's pretty, you know, 80 milligrams, the double size, like 120 milligrams. So I would I would start with that or or try to titrate down.

Host 3:44:28

Um and I guess why we're talking about it too, what's your thoughts on artificial sweeteners? Um, I know there's just been a lot of like you know, the lot of messaging, right? Yeah, yeah. You never know who's fun in the research. So again, I was telling you last night, like uh there's you know, as a guy who's you know how to deal with nutritional issues and and medical issues, like it's so confusing, man.

Nick Barringer 3:44:48

Like I don't know what's real. Yeah, you know, the thing with artificial sweeteners, I I think we should keep monitoring, we keep should keep doing research. But as of right now, the literature I've read, if you're somebody who drinks, let's say, regular soda and you're like willing to switch to diet, that's a net win. That's it, I'll take that every time. If you go from Coke to Coke Zero, boom, win. Don't worry. Yeah, because it's on a colour on a caloric, you know. On a caloric, you're you're getting because one the the artificial sweetener research isn't like there's no like definitive bad, like this is. And then two, even the ones that kind of point towards that, the dose they gave those animals would be like you drinking like 50 diet cokes, which very, you know, we need to have a talk if you're drinking. Yeah, that's a whole that's a whole other issue. Yeah, right. Um, so so as of right now, now if you're like trying to optimize everything, is there some you know things that maybe the gut microbiome or whatever, then yeah, we we can maybe look at it, but I don't work with anybody like that. Like for most people, I'm like, all right, you're you're drinking regular soda and you're willing to switch to diet soda, let's do it.

Host 3:45:55

Yeah, uh, hopefully my wife hears this because I I really like Diet Mountain Dew. Um, GLP ones, man. There's been like a lot of controversy. We're not gonna speak to you know the in-depth thing, that's not your background. But as a dietitian and somebody who talks to people on health concerns, what are your thoughts on the GLP ones and GLP threes?

Nick Barringer 3:46:15

It's great, it's a it's a tool. I'm I'm all about giving people tools, I'm all about giving people options. Um, the the key is to go in to it with eyes wide open, right? If you have a crappy diet and you're not exercising, and I give you something that takes your appetite away. I'm just kind of affecting like one problem but could create another. And so if you lose a bunch of weight, you're like, ah, cool, but if you're not exercising, you're not eating enough protein, a lot of that's muscle as well. So now I'm putting you at risk for being, you know, uh sarcopenic when you get older and have falls and have all those other, you know, sort of issues, not being as mobile, et cetera. So we could create that problem. So it's important that if you're gonna use, you know, GLP ones or whatever to lose weight to still manage your diet, still exercise, still make sure you get enough protein to preserve that lean.

Host 3:47:11

Yeah, because of the yo-yo effect, right? If you don't manage it and you and you don't change your eating habits as soon as you get off the GLP1s, that's what it's been shown. You blow back up, and that's gotta, that's gotta be hard on your body too, right?

Nick Barringer 3:47:20

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, what typically happens with yo-yo dieting, if you look, is you know, people drop down, they lose muscle mass and fat. And then when they gain it back, they typically don't gain back the muscle mass, but they gain fat mass. And then they they keep doing that, and so they keep losing muscle and they keep gaining a higher percentage of fat.

Host 3:47:41

Wanted to talk about some controversial and and some trending topics. I mean, you hinted out earlier, seed oils, man. Like beyond policy, what does research actually show or you know, to your knowledge?

Nick Barringer 3:47:54

It doesn't. I I I could, you know, I could probably get your show a lot more clicks if I was like, they're evil, you know, like don't eat seed oils. You know, that that would they're going to kill you. Like if if you do that, you'll get all the clicks, right? You'll get all the, but you look at the literature, it's like, yeah, you know, we're we're we're we're uh we're not really moving the needle there. Um whether you use canola oil or beef tallow, there's probably not that that big a difference. Um there is, you know, that talks about like the heat stability and things, and and I get all that. And again, with all this like research is with nutrition, it takes time. I mean, think about eggs. We've changed our mind on eggs like five times since I've been a dietitian. Cholesterol, right? At one point, it was like you've got to eat 300 milligrams or less of the cholesterol a day or you're gonna have high cholesterol. Now we don't even give you a a number because it doesn't matter as much as saturated fat. So will there be a time that maybe like the seed oil thing, maybe there will be a smoking gun that pops up and people go, aha, could be. I I'll I'll accept that. But as of right now, I wouldn't stress if somebody's using a canola oil. And and there are, you know, papers that show that when people switch to even seed oils over saturated fat sources, their cholesterol improves.

Host 3:49:11

Saturated fats. What are, I mean, what are you calling saturated fats?

Nick Barringer 3:49:15

Um, you know, again, like butter, lard, you know, that those would be a lot of the lot of the solid at room temperature. Um, I did say I, you know, we talked a little at dinner last night. Like coconut oil is a weird one because it is a saturated fat, but there uh are some papers that show like it's not it's not handled like butter in terms of of driving up your your cholesterol.

Host 3:49:35

So and then I mean I know olive oil, right? Olive oil is like super good for you. Super good for you. But when you use it to cook with it, high.

Nick Barringer 3:49:42

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's around um, you know, I don't have Google in front of me, but I'll say like 410 degrees is the smoke point. So it's gonna smoke. So if it smokes up your kitchen, that that's not good. I I cook with avocado oil. I put olive oil on my salads. And here's another thing. If you're using fat-free salad dressing, stop. Stop. Um, again, fat-soluble vitamins that are in those plants, you need fat to absorb them. Use olive oil. Use, you know, cut up some eggs, throw it on your salad. Um, that's gonna help absorb those fat-soluble vitamins. So no ranch dressing, bro.

Host 3:50:16

No ranch dressing.

Nick Barringer 3:50:17

I mean, if you're gonna put a little bit on, I mean, control it. The problem, the problem I find with salad dressings, and one, if you're at a restaurant, always ask for it on the side. Otherwise, they're just gonna drown that. Oh, yeah. Because yeah, you for instance, ranch dressing, what is it? Every serving's two tablespoons, and it's like 120 calories. You can turn a salad into a Big Mac really quick if you if you go. So you you've got to, you know, look at your salad dressing.

Host 3:50:38

Um, there's been a massive, like, I get I think there's always been these fad diets. I mean, God, I've probably tried three quarters of them. Um, what what are on your thoughts on, you know, there's a huge carnivore movement going on? Why's exploding? And is there any validity to any of that, especially in the tactical athlete realm?

Nick Barringer 3:50:54

Well, I mean, I I think why is it exploding, you know, Texas and you know, you had the the liver king, right? Which, yeah, that was, you know, doing it. Um as far as like purpose, I could see a purpose for using it as an elimination diet, where like you come to me and I'm working with you and you're like, Nick, I'm having all these gut issues. I don't know what it is, I just can't do it. It's like, all right, Asher, let's take everything out of your diet, just eat some chicken, you know, eat some beef, and we're gonna see how you do. And then we see, and you're like, all right, it went away, and we start reintroducing fruits and vegetables, and then we reintroduce here, and we're like, oh crap, that artichoke messed me up. All right, let's pull that, you know, and using it as a tool to get to an overall balanced diet, I could see a benefit. As far as just eating meat, um, I don't see any like literature display, it goes against everything. And and also it depends on like how people are interpreting carnivore. There was just a case study where an individual was doing a carnivore diet, and so what he was doing is he was eating hamburger patties, like it like in and out. He'd just go get hamburger patties. He showed up uh to the the hospital because he had all these yellow nodules on his arm. His cholesterol was in the thousands. The yellow nodules was cholesterol, like the fat, like like secreting. And it was just, yeah, he was taking in too much fat. So is it that carnivore or could you be eating venison and elk? Right. I I think that would have a different health outcome too. So we also get to look at like what meat are we talking about? Um, but as of right now, I mean, even the most uh famous guy, he's a psychologist. You know what I'm talking about? He lives in Costa Rica. Uh he's a big carnivore. Is he does he go by carnivore MD? It's not Sean, Sean Baker, it's it's it's another guy. He he eventually came off carnivore and he said, you know, just he was having so many issues. So he started eating, you know, some some fruits and vegetables. The one who's been doing it the longest is is uh the Dr. Sean Baker. You know what I'm talking about? I think I said, yeah, he has like the steak machine and he just makes steaks at his in his house. He's fast. I would I would love to talk to that guy. I mean, I would love to study that guy and see like how he's he's doing it. Because I mean, I I I will give him this. What is he? He's like 59 or 60. Like I saw some stuff like of him power cleaning 300 or whatever. I'm like, he might just be a mutant. I don't know. Um, but uh as of right now, I would say with the science, yeah, eat eat your fruit and vegetables.

Host 3:53:16

Yeah. Um what uh what about that whole eat right for your blood type thing? You know, we're kind of um there's no no support for that. No. Fermented foods, uh, vitamin K, man, that's been a been a big thing. Um, and it's huge in Southeast Asia too, especially.

Nick Barringer 3:53:32

No, love the fermented foods. I mean, the the the gut microbiome is that that's probably one of the, you know, and has been one of the more exciting areas in research where we're like we're learning more and more things that are that are tied to the gut, right? And the bacteria that's in it, um, from how our brain works to obesity to athletic performance. Um, so I am a big fan of kombucha. I am a big fan of kefir. Uh my wife's half Korean, so we'll get, you know, some kimchi going, um uh yogurt, you know, all those those fermented foods getting it in. Um, and then sometimes I I'll leverage uh probiotic supplement.

Host 3:54:10

Yeah. You mentioned the gut microbiome, and I mean the studies now are showing that you know your your gut's kind of like your second brain. Yes. Um uh any any interesting research or anything uh that you see is up and coming as far as you know what they're finding out about gut health and and and why it's so important. I I I think we were talking about it before we recorded. You you released something, it was a study on ADHD in kids and how uh probiotics can help. Like what is your thoughts on the gut?

Nick Barringer 3:54:35

Yes, I mean, no, it's it's it's definitely something to to look at. Sadly, I'll say this you know, how I was saying, I'll get a blood test and we can look and we do that. I could go get, you know, Asher, I get you to go get a stool test and we could look at the bacteria in your gut. What we could action on that would it would be challenging. And and that's so the science is not quite there yet. Like if you had a really high level of a bad thing, could or a parasite or something, you could you could definitely uh address that. But as far as like you and I could have completely different ratios and both of us be crushing it, and it's just from our like background, our diet, our you know, that there's there's so many variables. Um, even I mean, even so much to whether you were like born um through a vaginal canal or cesarean section. Like there's yeah, I mean, it there's there's so many things that go into it that we don't know. Um with that being said, there's more and more research that's coming out with you know, that like the paper. And I I forgot the three strains. I've I've got it on my my Instagram that was shown that okay, when they gave kids these three strains, they uh had um uh less kind of ADHD symptoms. So, you know, it to me, it's about risk versus reward. Like, all right, that's a that's a low risk little thing I can do with my kiddo. Let's let's try it. Let's let's see. Um, there's a guy, Dr. Jonathan Scheiman, he runs a FitBiomics out of Boston. He's been looking a lot in the athletic space. So what he did, uh they took uh Boston Marathon runners and looked at the fast runners versus the slow runners. And he saw that the fast runners had Vienella, this one bacteria that converts lactate to short chain fatty acids. And so the thought is okay, these people, part of the reason they're maybe faster is their body is handling lactate and quickly converting it to a fuel source. So they make a probiotic that that is that. So there's even people looking at like athlete guts and like what might maybe make an athlete elite that's in their gut, could you and I take that? And then we get some of those benefits. Um, so so there's that. And then there's obviously kind of the health thing. And I think for the military, a lot of the exciting stuff. One of the things we found in Afghanistan, when we looked at those special operators, a large percentage of them reported diarrhea at some point during the deployment. Probably not surprising for those have been deployed, right? And when we asked them, especially when you go to the Shura Council and Yeah, right. The footbreds. And so when we asked them, we're like, how many days do you think like that affected your performance? Some guys would say like 20 days they're affected. But then we ask them, okay, did you not go on target at any point during that time? No, they all went on target. So we know that people are compromised, going on target from something as simple as diarrhea. And it's like, can we not address, can we not fix that through maybe giving you some um, you know, certain bacteria before you go to theater that could they can help with that? And so there's a guy, Dr. Phil Carl, at Euserium, and that's what he specializes in. They're looking at that. And so I think for war fighters, that's gonna be something down the road of like, let's let's address like traveler's diarrhea, a simple thing we can we can affect that, you know, you know, you're already deployed, you're already having people shoot at you. Let's make it so you don't poop yourself.

Host 3:57:54

Yeah, right. And I'll tell you, I think we're talking about last night, dude. And there's a study coming out on ginger and what I mean, ginger, we use it heavily at our house. Anytime I feel nauseous or my kids get nauseous, even um, you know, diarrhea, whatever, that's one of the first things we give. And man, we have seen an amazing and it's not a lot, you don't eat a lot. We peel it, clean it, you know, give them a chunk, chew on it. Um, and you know, I I think the old adage was, you know, what they used to give, they used to give ginger ale, right? Because that was supposed to help stomach. Well, but back then, ginger ale was actually made with actual ginger, and then you know, cast fast forward, it's all fake sweeteners, and so um, you know, uh ginger's been phenomenal. There's a study coming out on that.

Nick Barringer 3:58:31

Yeah, we we've got one uh coming out, say Big Wee and and partner with uh Appalachian State University, and so uh a you know, company consult for uh Pure Green. Um, I give them credit, you know, juice company, right? And they're they're putting their money behind some science. And so they make a ginger shot. And and this is something I love that you make your own ginger, but for those that don't, lazy like me, and you want to get a ginger shot, go to the grocery store, pick out your ginger shot, flip it around, look at it. Nine times out of ten, the first ingredient isn't ginger.

Host 3:59:01

Really?

Nick Barringer 3:59:02

A lot of times it's apple juice, lemon juice, other things, and then ginger's down toward the bottom. That was one of the things I give pure green credit uh for is first ingredient, ginger. It's like ginger and lemon juice. That's it. Um, and then we actually tested the ginger alls because that's the you know, the active like slitter side and uh the gum, and it had high concentration of slitter sauce, so so or not slit uh pardon me, the ginger alls in it as well. So we know how much ginger all is in each shot. And so now what we did is we did a uh uh Dr. Laurel Wentz did an uh uh and uh Dr. Jennifer Kurtz, I want to give them credit. I mean, they did some heavy lifting and looked at cyclists, putting them through time trial, kind of beating them up. And one of the things we see besides a decrement in performance is immune function goes down. So anybody who's trained for a marathon, done long rucks, maybe a military selection, and you get sick when you're like training really hard because you can suppress immune function. We're our our kind of hypothesis is um the ginger uh is gonna preserve that immune function. And and literally today I'll probably send over the paperwork where we're gonna sign to get that that that the the studies done. We have the blood, we just need to send it off to the lab to do the immune testing. And so we'll probably do that within the next week.

Host 4:00:14

Super cool. I'd be I'd be super curious to see how to do that.

Nick Barringer 4:00:16

So you'll you'll be the first to know.

Host 4:00:18

Yeah, let us know. We'll we'll put it out here. Um one of the other diets I want to talk about too is the ketogenic diet. I I did it at one point. My God, man, I lost so much weight. It was actually scary. It was the least amount of food I'd ever eaten. Um, and we I was eating quality foods, but real balance between uh, you know, protein fats with a little bit of green. What's your what's your thoughts on that? I know it's been studied heavily for epilepsy and diabetics, but beyond that, um, what what are your thoughts on on that diet as a diet dietitian?

Nick Barringer 4:00:42

Depends on the goals. I again, I think this is another tool. I think this is another tool in the toolkit. Um, and we also have to be what I heard too is how you talked about doing ketogenic diet, kind of like doing carnivore. Like there's different, we we have to be very careful because I've seen people do kinogenic ketogenic diet and they just take their buns off their McDonald's burgers. Wow. And I'm keto, bro, you know, uh even just mass amounts of like bacon. Right. I I think we can unequivocally say that's bad. Like that's not the way to do it. Like, like if we're gonna use it. Doing something where we're going 50 grams or less of carbohydrates per day, still eating, you know, uh uh lean protein stuff. And the challenge you might have seen with the ketogenic diet, if you're actually if you're trying to get into uh pure ketosis, like true ketosis, like what is it, over five millimoles, you gotta go lower protein because protein will get converted to carbohydrates in that state. Yeah, because you talk about geogenesis.

Host 4:01:38

Dom Diagostino, I mean he was like the god, and there was Rob Wolfe. I mean, I've followed that stuff for a while.

Nick Barringer 4:01:43

Yeah, so you know, like a lot of people don't though. They think, oh, I can just eat all the protein I want. It's like, no, you you've got to watch that. Um, yeah, you know, I'm I'm all for, I'm here for the literature. I'm here for uh, you know, kind of seeing where it goes. I think for athletic performance for most tactical athletes, not ideal because it's gonna affect like you're not gonna be able to go for as hard for as long with a ketogenic diet. Now, where some people manipulate it, some like endurance athletes, where they go low and they get like better at fat adaptation and then they go to a race and then they eat more carbohydrates. I think the best example of this is uh Zach Bitter, who broke the 100-mile record. I think that's smart. Like I'm kind of excited about that of maybe like you're using it for this tool for this time. Um, certainly weight loss and stuff is is another category, but if we're looking at performance, to where maybe you fat adapt and then you get the benefits of carbohydrates and being able to oxidize more fats. Like, like that in theory, if that works, uh that that could be exciting. Um, but but but I'm open to it, but just you know, you got to do it um smartly. But for most people, it's probably not the solution. Um, but it does promote satiety, like you said. Like people they eat it and they don't feel as hungry. Yeah, it's crazy, man. I even bring snacks and I just wouldn't eat them. I wasn't hungry. It was uh well, it's you know, I mean, protein's like a natural GLP one, right? Like it it pushes up, where carbohydrates, not. I mean, that's why you go to a tempenyaki restaurant, you get a bowl of rice, you're hungry 15 minutes later. Um, so and I'll I'll give I'll turn people on to another great researcher, Jeff Volick. I don't know if you ever came across his stuff. Jeff Volk's been researching, he's at Ohio State University. With a V, yeah. So uh V-O-L-E-K, Jeff Volick at Ohio State University. He is like the godfather of research in ketogenic diets, like like over 20 years. And so he's he's been doing a lot of of cool stuff. And and for the military, um he just they just did a ruck marching paper where they gave him uh a keto bar to eat. Because again, where it could be exciting for the military is fat is uh easy to pack a lot of calories in and less weight, so you can carry more bullets. And so I I think there there could be some benefit there.

Host 4:03:57

Um simple protocols, man. If you could only give like five nutrition rules, you know, what what would they be?

Nick Barringer 4:04:04

Five new okay, we'll go strictly nutrition. I I'll go the the hydration. Um, you know, drink your your half your body weight in ounces of water every day. Make sure you get that. Could go up in the summer in Texas, weigh yourself before and after. Make sure you dial in your hydration. Eat, you know, uh at least uh, you know, let's say uh three servings of vegetables per day, three servings of of you know uh fruit uh per day, and you know, uh at three of your meals get um at least um let's say you Know 30 to 40 grams of protein. Like for most people, that would be the the basic. Um, and then after that, it would be if okay, if you can get three colors on your plate.

Host 4:04:49

Eating out, man. How do you do that and not totally just wreck your body? Like, if you a lot of us, like you yourself said it as well. You're you're on the go. A lot of people out there on the go, traveling, busy people, etc.

Nick Barringer 4:05:00

Yeah, uh you know, a lot of tools out there now. It's very exciting time to again to be alive in that there's a lot of healthy, convenient foods, a lot of like go to Target and get freeze-dry blueberries, you know, strawberries, you can keep in your bag for one. But then when I'm eating out, I'm like, man, Uber Eats, no affiliation is the ultimate hack that I have used consistently. Um, because here's what I do I land, I don't even think about it, I go to my hotel room, I put on my gym clothes, I go work out. While I'm working out, I order my food. When I'm done working out, I go downstairs, I pick up my food. I'm getting, you know, like the time it saves me versus like trying to go out, eat, get something or whatever, totally worth it. Um, and then you can, it's got like you can select like healthy options on it and you can see what restaurants around the area are healthy. And then what I do is there's certain restaurants that, you know, can I say the restaurant or I don't know how to say right? Yeah, like like Tropical Smoothie Cafe, for instance. They're everywhere. So they've got really good food. Huh? They've got good food. And they got these, so I have my order saved in there. And so if I'm in a town and it has a tropical smoothie work restaurant, I'm doing my workout, I just click it. I just like boop, order it's it, and I work out, and then I go downstairs and then I pick it up, and then like, yeah, and it's it's like it's huge. It's worth whatever the 10 buck delivery or five buck delivery, like whatever. I think, and then after that is just you know, looking at how you can manipulate, like if you're going to Chipotle and you've been traveling, you don't need the burrito bowl, turn it in, or pardon me, the burrito, you probably get a bowl. If you if you take out the burrito, the wrap out of that, and just kind of put it in a salad, you cut the calories in half and the carbs by uh two two-thirds. Wow.

Host 4:06:47

Uh grocery shopping 101, where do most people start or where should where should they start if we're trying to eat the is it the whole you know, shop the outside?

Nick Barringer 4:06:56

Yeah, I mean, I mean it's still it's still a decent rule to have. Uh, I go in, I get what I need to get at and get out of the middle aisles. I don't like to go up and down them, especially if my kids are with me, because you know how that goes. They want to grab stuff. Um the the other piece of it, like with HEB, because I just worked with the unit of teaching this. We actually, it was a lot of fun. We did like a supermarket uh spree thing and then had a cook-off, and I rated it on uh flavor of their meal and like nutrition. But what I showed them is every HEB at least, and there's probably a lot of other grocery stores, they have a map. So if you go on the website, it'll have a map where everything is. So you can literally, if you wanted to be that prepared, you could map out exactly what you need to get and go get it and and then get out. It's a great idea. I never even never even thought about that.

Host 4:07:44

Longevity, man. You know, kind of getting past 40, right? Uh, how was your training and nutrition changed as you've gotten older?

Nick Barringer 4:07:52

For nutrition, I eat a lot less. A lot less. Um, I'm I'm very cognizant of the food I eat. I'm very cognizant of the carbohydrates. That's the biggest one. Where, for instance, when I was at Ranger Regiment, all the carbs, bro. I mean, because you know, we're rucking, we're running, we're, you know. Whereas now I'm behind a desk a lot. Uh, so if I don't earn them, like if I if I don't go out and do a hard ruck or a run or a bike or whatever, like my my carbs are minimal. My carbs are what I'm getting from my fruit and from vegetables. Like I'm not, I'm not crushing a bunch of bread or you know, anything. Um, so so that's been the biggest kind of to control the body weight, just realizing your energy expenditure. And and there's a paper out because we used to think like metabolism slows down. We found it doesn't really slow down, it's just we slow down. We don't do as much activity. Uh training-wise, you know, back to it again is finding movements that like don't hurt that I can load up on and still get stimulus. Uh, I get stimulation, not annihilation. Right. Um, so you know, for instance, like we did back squats today. I'll tell you, man, that's the first time I've put a barbell on my back in quite some time. I've been doing like a lot of lunging, loaded, you know, heavy, heavy lunging and things like that. Because just what I found is just, you know, the bar on my back going really heavy, you know, I had had, you know, gave me some issues. So I'm like, all right, why am I doing back squats? Do I do I have to do a squat this way? And so I'll tell you something I love. If you can find in a gym, dude, I love belt squats. Have you done belt squats?

Host 4:09:30

What what are what are they again?

Nick Barringer 4:09:32

You belt around your waist, you clip in, and it's loading, it's like pulling down on your pelvis. Oh no, I have to do it.

Host 4:09:37

So it is it is it's like fancy machine, man.

Nick Barringer 4:09:39

Oh, bro. It is all you can find with some YMCAs. It is all on your legs and like not on your back at all. It's so good. Sounds like it'd be a lot better for you. Oh, I I love it. Well, and also it kind of puts you in traction because it's like pulling down on your pelvis while you're upright. Um, but yeah, so I so you know, finding those those movements. Like I I love like you reminded me today doing Vern Griffin's program. I haven't I've been slacking on the mobility work. Uh so doing that.

Host 4:10:06

Yeah, I've been on that GBRS program, uh, and I'm not sponsored by that. I've done I've been doing Vernon Griffin's GBRS workout for probably maybe four or five years. Um, and what it's done for me, he's really big on warm-ups, hip agility, uh, mobility uh with compound movements. And I don't, I mean, I can go heavy. I think I've gotten really strong for that. I don't uh because I mean I can squat, you know, yeah, three three and a half plates. I just don't, though, man, because I worry about spinal spinal compression. But yeah, yeah, if you're if you're looking for a workout, again, I get nothing out of it. Um, I don't even I've tried to get Vernon on the podcast. I don't think he'll maybe we can get him.

Nick Barringer 4:10:40

We have to make that connection.

Host 4:10:41

Yeah, he won't uh he won't respond to my cause, but man, it's a phenomenal, phenomenal training. It takes the guesswork out of it. I was actually telling you this morning as we were going through it. I'm like, man, if they canceled this app, dude, and I had to go find my workouts again, man. I wouldn't I wouldn't know.

Nick Barringer 4:10:53

You gotta be, I might look at it because again, you know, I it's like I know what to do, but I'm I I I cut out the mobility work.

Host 4:11:01

Yeah, and it's on the Train Heroic app. So Vernon's got like every day something different. I mean, there's stuff in there I've never even heard, but you just click on the exercise, it's got a video, takes the guesswork out. I'm never in the gym longer than an hour, and that's kind of with a you know, a front and back, you know, small cardio session. So yeah, I think, you know, going back to your point, I'm busy. We're all busy for those of us that are grinding in life, and you know, times of a uh precious commodity. So, you know, you don't take the guesswork out of it. It's just I can go, I can show up, I can do it, and I'm out, I'm on to the next thing. You know, one of the things I did want to, you know, as you've kind of gotten older and you know, you're surrounded by, you know, educated doctors and and scientists. Um, what's kind of more important as you get older is that the, you know, I I think I heard, I don't want to misquote the longevity guy, uh Breca was talking about it's, you know, it's almost if you can only pick one, it's kind of more important to lift weights necessary than cardio. Because a lot of people, you know, with lifting weights, you're getting your you're keeping your bones strong. Because, you know, as people get in the later years, you know, they uh they break things easy. Well, what's your thoughts on that? Or how's that it's tough.

Nick Barringer 4:12:00

I I wouldn't want to take cardio out. I mean, because I think VO2 max is correlated to to longevity, you know, as as well. Um, and you know, your your cardio respiratory fitness. So I I feel like I'm sorry, people, like you got to do both. Like, like we gotta be like you gotta do both. You need you need to load up so you build some muscle and you need to work the heart. And and you know, if you can do both in the same session, great. But ultimately, if you want to be mobile, if you want to play with your grandkids, you want to do all those things, that's what being a human's about, right?

Host 4:12:32

Yeah, super cool. We're kind of on the backside of this. I did want to cover, we kind of, you know, we we went to your PhD program, then we dove knee deep into all things, you know, health and supplements. But um, I kind of wanted to, you know, go back a little bit to your your career to kind of close you out and bring you current to what you're doing. So you you you graduated with your with your PhD. What what was next for you after that?

Nick Barringer 4:12:52

So after that, I went and taught at the master's program in nutrition. So that's where you're coming in the you know, the army, you have your nutrition degree, you want to be a dietitian. The it when I went through, it was just an internship. They grew it in partnership with Baylor University, where you come in, you're with us for two years, we train you, and you get your degree from Baylor University, a master's in nutrition. It's a great deal. Um, and so I taught, I was able to teach there, and that was just so much fun. Love that. And then I went to Userium, and then I went to West Point. And then while I was at West Point, the program director job opened up for that program. Um, and you know, that was my my dream job. So I went down there and I was able to do that. And then while I was there, we were able to transition the program to kind of a you know, a one-stop shop and then opened up the program because before that you had to be a nutrition major to come into our program. And that limited us because there wasn't a lot of people that had like dietetic degrees. So, you know, I would have like rangers who would get a degree in exercise science and be like, man, I want to be a dietitian. And it's like, oh, you gotta go back and get another degree. That's a big lift, that's a big ask. So instead, we uh, you know, changed the program and offered different classes where we could accept people with exercise science degrees. And so what that allowed is now while I was there, we went through that change, which was a pain. That staff did some heavy lifting. Shout out to uh uh Michelle Stone um and and all the people who were there and and did that. Um but uh when we did that, we found half our half the classes, I don't know if it's still there since I left, were were prior enlisted or prior service coming in. And and while I was there, he just graduated, we had our first ranger, like our you know, a dude, it was a dude, you know, wearing a scroll coming in to be a dietitian. Like I felt like at West Point? No, no, oh it down at Fort Sam Houston at the nutrition program. And so that was where like that that's part of the reason I I could retire. Like I'm like, all right, you know, it's we've we've hit the full circle moment. He was an artilleryman in in 2nd Ranger Battalion. And he went and he got his degree and he came in and now, you know, and now he's a dietitian. And there was other great people there too. And then, you know, the fact that uh Ranger Regiment now has another active duty, you know, uh dietitian and in uh Megan Rippinger and all like this. Uh, there was really no other job I wanted, and I was like, all right, it's time to retire. Like it's I can I can go out.

Host 4:15:22

What was that decision point for you um, you know, to to go into the civilian world and and what was that transition like for you?

Nick Barringer 4:15:29

Um again, I I think the decision point was I had done everything I wanted to do in the army. There was no job that I looked out there and I was like, oh yeah, I want to go to the Pentagon. You know what I mean? Like, you know, ooh, yeah. Like there was there was no other job that enticed me. Um, and then also there's a family component, right? I've got three young kids and and you know that and stability and and getting to get roots somewhere. And then also I had been uh dabbling, and I recommend everybody to dabble um if you're on active duty in the civilian sector. So I would, you know, I got permission and I would go do nutrition workshops uh and things like that. So I got to see and kind of experience to know what that looked like and have that. And then the other big factor was uh, which I hope they keep was the uh the you know, the skill bridge, the career, the career skills program. I utilized that and was able to work with a mentor to make that transition. So the transition is scary and it's hard. And I say all that, and I'm a dietitian. Like I, you know, I have a degree that lines up with the civilian sector. I had friends who were very successful in the civilian sector. I had mentors who were helping me out. I had worked a little bit or done contract work before and all that. And even with all that, dude, it's scary and hard. So I feel like for the the 11 Bravo that's just like getting out, like, man, you need, you know, we we need to help those folks out as much as possible.

Host 4:17:00

As you made that kind of retirement transition and you know, you're trying to find the new purpose. What do you think like the future of military nutrition? Uh where's it going?

Nick Barringer 4:17:10

And I I'm so excited where it's going because you know, now with this new master's program nutrition, we're getting more uh military experience like in the nutrition realm, like you know, people with uh deployments and and you know, combat experience, not that we didn't already have dietitians out there, but there's just so many great talented dietitians that uh that I see in the force, like as I was leaving, I'm like, oh man, this is in great hands. And then the other piece I do want to give credit to is this our civilian counterparts. So, for instance, like the majority of dietitians taking care of special operators right now, civilian, not green seeders. Um, and so that's you know great in a lot of ways in terms of the stability. They're not moving, and you know, and I think a perfect model is a combination of both where you have the stability, but then you have the military person that it can rotate through. Um, so there are some big things uh coming on the horizon, I will say, um, especially in the special operations community that they've done with nutrition. There's a dietitian who she she keeps her head down, so you never see her pop up. But if you ever see the name Christy Logan, um she has been working in special operations you know, since I was at Ranger Regiment and has just made so many phenomenal changes, um, policy changes, like affecting like like policy throughout the army on how we can feed and get um war fighters um the appropriate supplemental nutrition. And so that's changing this year where they're actually gonna be able to get you know fueled like they should get fueled and not have to pay out of pocket.

Host 4:18:42

That's so awesome, man, because uh as we've discussed for the last couple hours, it's so important, right? Yeah, it's it's cool to uh to see that. Um teaching versus doing, how do you, you know, balance now, you know, with academia versus world world applications?

Nick Barringer 4:18:57

I I always want to keep a mixture of both. So, you know, I I teach at uh an online university in exercise science, uh Lionel University. I'm their their academic officer. So I, you know, go over the curriculum and all, but but also teach. But then what's important to me and you know what I'm thankful that my job allows me to do is I still go out and do engagements with tactical athletes. Uh, I still work with individuals. And and I think that's important that, you know, when I talk to folks about nutrition or trying to, you know, teach them something, like I'm still, I'm still doing the damn thing. I'm still practicing it. I'm still doing it. So I so I understand, you know, what really happens and what really goes on versus just what I read in a book.

Host 4:19:38

Uh you alluded to your family. You got a a wife, three busy kids. Um, you know, how is how has that impacted, you know, kind of your work? And you, you know, you kind of alluded to the fact that, you know, you that was a big part of your retirement decision and and part of it. Uh, how has she supported you and and um and and and made it all this stuff possible? And you know, what's it like trying to implement dietary guidelines with you know super young kids?

Nick Barringer 4:20:04

Because as a dude who has kids, I'm always curious, right? Well, you know, and and I think we we both share this and we talked about this a little over dinner last night, is like my wife has been uh my biggest cheerleader, right? And she believes in me more than I believe in myself a lot of times. Like sometimes I'm like, can I do this? She's like, oh yeah, you can do it, you know. So she's just been uh nothing but supportive from you know, Tom. I mean, again, like probably like you, you're like, honey, I'm gonna start a podcast and I'm gonna, you know, do this. Like most normal people be like, Asher, that's crazy. Or like me, like, hey, honey, um, I want to start a gum brand. Let's let's do that, you know. Like most normal people would be like, no. And she's like, yes, all in. Let's do it. What, what can I do? And so that's been huge, right? Um, and then as far as like implementing nutrition, I again give my family credit. Uh, she always jokes, you know, she can give nutrition advice as the wife of a dietitian. Yeah. Um, but I mean, yeah, you know, she pays attention to what I say, and we, we, we try to implement as much with our kids. And, you know, my kids like read food labels like that, you know, that that gets exciting is like my daughter will flip a food label over and be like, well, daddy, I don't know. This is this got more than 10 grams of sugar. I, you know, and and so just making them aware, uh, of course they still have ice cream, right? Of course they still have those those those those things, um, but they are more aware of like, you know, what uh fuels their body. Like my son loves soccer, my six-year-old Wolf. And, you know, he had asked me the other day, like, what's the best thing to eat before soccer to help me fuel?

Host 4:21:32

You know, he because he wants to do it so that means they're paying attention, right?

Nick Barringer 4:21:36

Right, right. So, so it's it's trickling in there. So it's a lot of fun. And, you know, we we try to make a family activity of reading labels. What's next for you now that you've retired?

Host 4:21:44

I mean, you mentioned that you're you're working at Lionel. I know you have some other things going on. Um, what what do you want the people to know about you know some of the projects you you have working on or maybe research things you got have coming up or yeah, you know, I'm I'm I'm working with with companies.

Nick Barringer 4:21:58

I love working now with uh you know certain brands. I won't name them all. You know, I mentioned that Pure Green project that I'm working on. I've got another study, I've got a collagen study in the works for uh first responders, looking at tenant and joint health, yeah. Um, in the United Kingdom of all places. So, you know, it'll it'll be fun. Um so I so I want to keep that type of work going with with more brands and like bringing the science to uh the consumer, but then also maybe some of those research projects that could help validate their their products. Um I work with a company called O2X Human Performance as one of their specialists, and I dearly love their mission and uh helping you know tactical athletes be the best versions of themselves. So I'm very active in that and going and doing that. And uh I get to work with great colleagues like Allison Brager and you know, some of the other folks we mentioned uh mentioned. They bring in all these experts in their field, and you get to go hang out with these people and you get to hang out with awesome clients who are passionate and so really impact uh, you know, people's lives. So I enjoy that as well. Um I do my uh own personal consulting, uh in Cretea, um, which is you know a fancy term for self-mastery. I I got thinking I gotta give uh Ryan Holliday, you know, credit, which which I think he brought stoicism kind of back to the mainstream. Maybe it was uh Tim Ferris, but um, you know, I came across that, I think, in one of his books. And I just love that idea of like you've got to master yourself before you can do anything else. And so that was why I was like, all right, that's the same my company, and Critiya LLC, because ultimately that's what I'm I'm helping people do. I'm facilitating it, but you know, I can give you nutrition information, Asher, but I can't feed you. I can't spoon feed you. You gotta master yourself. You gotta, so I'm facilitating that. So I I've been able to work with athletes, but now I'm doing a lot of work with with businesses, which is a lot of fun um there. Um, and then I still do some, you know, other other, you know, kind of consulting with the government and things, but uh that that's that's how I spend my time. And then be a dad, try to be a good husband, you know. Yeah.

Host 4:23:55

Um we'll leave uh links to all your you know your businesses. We've talked about the salvo, the the salvo gum. I hope you guys try that. It was uh it's really good and it's it works, man. Um and and it's cool. You get to support a veteran owned company, a guy that's uh you know really been dug deep into the weeds, worked in the tactical performance space, um, and kind of really know what moves the needle. And you know, you're a fit dude too. You you libeled about killed me this this morning. I try, man.

Nick Barringer 4:24:21

I was trying to hang with you. No, it was a it was a good workout. I I think that's another great thing is like getting a workout first thing in the morning.

Host 4:24:27

Yeah, you get that win. Um, our last couple questions before we close out.

Nick Barringer 4:24:29

What keeps you up at night professionally? Professionally, what keeps me up at night? I I guess this will be more kind of big picture than that. There's there's nothing like nutritionally or or things like that. It's just kind of, you know, how I can create a space uh where I I'm still able to accomplish everything I can, but have more time with the family.

Host 4:24:52

Yeah, super important. Sounds more simple than it than it really is.

Nick Barringer 4:24:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when you when you look at it. Yeah.

Host 4:24:58

What uh what excites you most about the future of human performance?

Nick Barringer 4:25:01

Everything. I I mean, you know, the the nutrition testing, the blood testing, being able to do that. Um, I think the salivary testing is is very exciting because, you know, to get spit from somebody is easy. Like sometimes drawing blood from somebody, you're like, you don't want to give me your blood. Um, but to be able to get your like spit, you'll give me that, you know, for willy-nilly. And some of the things we're we're able to tell, and then some of the things we'll be able to action to maybe improve uh your cognitive function to make you more resilient, to make you more healthy. So, so all of that is exciting. And then the wearables, the wearable space, I get it. I I think we can sometimes over-index on the wearables where people are like monitoring everything and it's just too much information. But the ability I have now to wake up in the morning and you know, see how my fighter in New Jersey slept last night and what affected that. That what 10 years ago, we we didn't have that ability. And so it's it's only gonna get better. Um, and then like you know, whoop and some of the data they're getting out of it, uh, in combination with the blood work, I think uh the the sky's the limit and it's gonna democratize human performance. Whereas before, only like the elite of the elite had that, right? If you have the money to work with, you know, somebody, you could do that. Where now the the average individuals can be able to get a hold of that. Final message, man. What do you want people to take away from this conversation that we had today? I I hope everybody listens to this and you find one piece of actionable information I provided, and then you go do it. Because one of the things I give in all my nutrition talks, I go, information doesn't matter. Inflammation, uh Implementation does so don't just listen to this, don't just enjoy this on your drive. Find something, be like, Nick said this about hydration, Nick said this about nutrition, whatever, and actually implement it. And to me, man, that that that makes my day. When somebody's like, I heard you say this, I did it, and I feel better. Like that's what I live for. Yeah, awesome. Oh, can you tell people where they can find you? We'll leave the links and stuff as well. But yeah, uh uh this sounds so pretentious, but uh dr nickbarringer.com. Um, there, that's my website, and then uh uh nickbaringer.phd.rdn. I think it's not like CSSD. It's my Instagram, we'll we'll put it on the link, but I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn, and that's it. I'm not on TikTok. Salvogums WWW. Oh yeah. W.salvogum.com. Uh 15% off. 15% off Vanguard15. Sweet, love it.

Host 4:27:38

Uh well, hey, dude, it's been an absolute honor. I I think the cool thing about talking to you is I know this won't be the last time we talk. So I'm looking forward to you know talking to you in the future, man. We're gonna be back on and and talk about whatever you know is moving the needle. You're a super active guy. I know you've got your hands in research projects and tactical uh athlete stuff. So um as the science keeps going and and the projects keep going, man, uh it's gonna be fun to to to continue this conversation down the road. But in the meantime, I know you're extremely busy. You you know, you got three young kids, uh, your wife, and you're on the road a lot. So thanks for finding the time to to hang out with us. It was an absolute honor to sit with you, man.

Nick Barringer 4:28:14

No, hey, thanks, Asher. This is this is great. This is a great setup. And hey, I'll put the message out there for any other guest out there, man. You you gotta come. You gotta you gotta some magic here. And and I'm I really appreciate the opportunity to come sit with you.

Host 4:28:25

If we could ask you too, man, um, you know, because this, you know, this bioscience hacking um space is new, who would be one or two recommendations of folks that we should talk about?

Nick Barringer 4:28:35

I love it. Um, I mean, if you if you can get Gabrielle would be hard to pin down because she, I mean, she's always moving, but I mean, Dr. Gabrielle Lyons, phenomenal. But there's a guy, Dr. Arnie Ferrando. I don't know if Arnie will listen to this, but so Arnie was a um a pilot in the military, went to West Point, gymnast, all like that, and then made a career pivot and became one of the leading protein researchers in the world. Like, he's done it all. I'll get I'll get you connected with him. But Arn Arnie Ferrando would be a phenomenal uh uh guest as well. Um, I was trying to think if there's anybody else in Texas uh that that you know. It can be forever, man. We we we fly people. You fly you fly people um in. Um, you know, I I I'll I'll throw out a couple more. Uh, you know, Dr. uh Stefan Paciacos, if you could get Dr. Lee Margolis, if you can get Lee out of Boston, if uh Lee listens to this, um, I I think he would be great. There's a guy, Dr. James McClung, who he is the um uh nutrition uh director. He is over all the nutrition research at Euserium. He's also great and been doing it for years. So so there's just you know, sorts of all sorts of great people out there. Awesome, man.

Host 4:29:44

Hey, to all you guys uh out there that continue to support this channel, I uh we we super appreciate it. I don't have a podcast if the if nobody's listening. So thanks for um all the support. Leave a comment in the in the YouTube if you're watching this or if you're on iTunes or Spotify. Uh please follow us and um and and leave a comment as well, kind of what you got out of this and and maybe even what you'd want to see in the future. We super appreciate it. Um the Patreon's up and running. There'll be some stuff with Nick on the Patreon um uh that that we won't air on YouTube. So feel free to support the channel that way. Uh, we also have you know the merch store. Um, we've got t-shirts, hats, sweatshirts, all kinds of stuff. All that goes back into the podcast to be able to bring awesome guests like Dr. Behringer and and some of the other guests we've had. So everybody stay safe out there. And if you can't be safe, be violent out here.