Welcome back, dude. It's been a year. Actually, it's been almost at a year, maybe just under a year. I think it's 11 and a half months since uh we recorded your first episode. Uh you were the most, you still are, the most viral episode that we've had. Every short that we cut did well over a million views almost. Like your podcast, I think today is on YouTube, it still got the most views um that we've ever had. It was kind of a crazy phenomenon. It was weird for us. I know it was weird for you too, is what we'll talk about here in a minute, but um yeah, it was just cool. So for those of you that don't know, Chris is uh Chris is our first guest uh to come back. Chris McCoy um was here last year. His his life story we told in uh two parts, two episodes, was um probably one of the wildest, most interesting stories, but also just a great comeback story. Um, I know you uncomfortably bared your soul, dude, uh, and you really trusted me, which I appreciate. But it was uh, you know, it was it was really interesting for us to see the comments. I think you and I were talking last night. I mean, I'll the the comment I still think that sticks with me the most. You had talked about, you know, a low point in your life uh, you know, that almost caused your death. And we we we did a small clip on it. I know you were initially uncomfortable about that clip, but I I really wanted to let it go because I knew there were people that need it. And I'll never forget there was a dude that said, I'm sitting here eating a sandwich in the Seattle Public Library that I got from the trash can. Um, this this video is what I needed to keep going. And tomorrow or next week, hopefully my boss will never know that I was homeless living out of my car. Yeah. And I thought that's powerful, man. Like, and it just goes to show that sometimes we think we're alone uh in this world, man, and but we're not.
Chris McCoySo there was a huge outpouring, like it was crazy. Um the comments, like I remember when we first did it, you told me, like, bro, don't look at the comments. And eventually, of course, I looked at them um for a little while, and the outpouring of like love and like appreciation and positivity was like crazy. Of course, there were negative comments on there. And for everybody out there who left a negative comment, thank you for driving engagement. You're literally putting money into my friend's pocket. So bring it on with the crazy comments. But like uh the outpouring of love and like um the one comment that really stuck out for me, and I don't know who it was out there, but hope I hopefully you see this. Um I talked quite a lot uh I talked quite a bit about my old neighbor, um, the pagan motorcycle club, uh Victor Castoratis.
HostI remember my next door neighbor asking me about him.
Chris McCoyYeah, I couldn't, I didn't know how to spell his name because you know he had this funky Greek last name. And someone in the comments looked him up and found out um uh that he had passed away and like hit the full spelling of his name and where he was from, and like that was pretty cool. That was like for me, one that was like, wow, that was like a nice thing to do. And for two, it was kind of like, oh, that's how you spell his funky Greek last name. And uh, it was kind of sad to know that he had passed away because it would have been cool to reconnect with him. But uh, whoever person that person was that did that little grunt work and legwork about finding out most uh about Vic Castoratus.
HostI'm gonna that story of like his impact on your early years and growing up next to a motorcycle gang chapter president.
Chris McCoyUm just another another crazy person who came along and drifted in and out of my life, and like just like this right now. I'm like super fortunate to like, I'm just really fortunate. I've come across people. Always tell me like I've lived this crazy life, but I look at it more like I've I've been fortunate enough to like just come across like just so uh like a parade of interesting characters in my life.
HostEvery time we talk, I you have a new character. I'm like, man, where do you? I we were talking on the car yesterday. I'm like, where do you meet these people? It's I just it's pretty cool.
Chris McCoyYou've got uh an eclectic group of I think I think uh people who've got that energy just aggregate towards each other, you know? That makes sense.
HostWell, we've had a ton of new followers, so there's probably like a ton of people that are hearing this podcast and may not have listened to your first one. So I'm still gonna do a uh an introduction. It just um this podcast will be a lot different than the other one. We're gonna dive all into your life stories, but we are gonna take this interview to the places that we honestly couldn't go last time because we ran out of time, dude. We up that last podcast.
Chris McCoyReally excited to be here. And if you are tuning in for the first time, um this pod is awesome. This is gonna be your new favorite pod. I think you're occupying like a really good space, and I think the feel here is a lot different than a lot of the other mil bro tack oriented pods. There's definitely an authenticity, like a human element here. This doesn't feel it's it's not that it doesn't feel it is. I mean, I'm in your I'm in your house right now. You know what I mean? I was like eating breakfast and playing with you. I was literally swimming with your dogs last night and like went riding e-bikes with your son. Yeah, there's like definitely an authenticity here, I think, that people people like.
HostYeah, I hope uh I hope we never lose that. I I spend a lot of time trying to get to know my guests, and then as you know, when my guests come, I turn my phone off. Yeah, um, I try to really be present, man, because I think I want this interaction that you and I have to be real, not some manufactured thing where I pick you up, you drive straight here, we talk about some stuff, pretend like we're super close, and then you leave and bro, we're gonna go tear up some Asada later.
Chris McCoyIt's gonna be effing awesome.
HostA little over a year ago, a man sat down in that chair and talked for seven and a half hours. We had to break it into two parts, not because anyone asked us to, but because one sitting was never supposed to hold a life that big. And it became the biggest thing this show has ever done. The algorithm grabbed his voice and wouldn't let go. People never worn a uniform, never fired a shot, never buried a friend. They sat through all seven and a half hours and then they went back and watched it again. My guest here again is Chris McCoy, a former NCO, 75th Ranger Regiment, Iraq and Afghanistan, back when the regiment was running two and three hits a night. He fought the war most only ever saw in a movie. He stood next to Pat Tillman, he carried men who didn't come home, and when the uniform came off, the war didn't end. It just changed shape. Two seasons on the deck of a Bering Sea crab boat, a collapse he has never once flinched from describing, and a climb back out of the dark that cost him almost everything he had. He's been sober for 13 years, a train painter's name on a thousand freight cars, and now he's an author. But here's the thing about the first conversation. He gave us seven and a half hours, and he still was holding some things back. There were war stories he'd never told, not on the show, not anywhere. There are six years of his life inside a drone program, a world he could only gesture at the last time that we we we sat across from each other. And there's a book now, Unseen Words, that didn't even exist the last time we sat and talked. A book that braids his own story together with the oldest warrior cultures on earth and the newest science of what combat does to a man. And we're going back into one more thing the month he spent inside the Pentagon after 9-11. We got a lot of we got a lot of comments on that.
Chris McCoyYeah, we did.
HostBecause when we aired that, the internet decided to tell a man who did body recovery in that building that he never happened the way he saw it, and he's not going to let that stand. So this isn't a sequel. This is a conversation. The first one wasn't long enough to hold. Chris, welcome back to the Vanguard Wall, brother.
Chris McCoyI'm so happy to be back, man. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
HostBefore we start diving into stuff, man, I, you know, I think you and I had this conversation yesterday about like what it's like, you know, for you to have a video where millions of people see it. I'm the host. I mean, I never considered what this podcast could even touch and where it could be. I still don't. It's not something that I consider, but what was it like when I remember where I was when like these videos, like your short started going viral? I'll never forget. I was with my daughter actually at the beach on like a daddy-daughter thing, and we just watched this thing, just like kept going and kept going. And and then I remember you started doing matches and like people started coming up to you. What was that like, dude?
Chris McCoyWell, when I saw the numbers, it I was like, oh, that's cool. It didn't really mean anything to me. I don't really I I think I just think a little differently like that. Like uh I got a pretty strong Instagram following, and like I I don't know, like in internet presence doesn't mean anything to me, it's fake, you know. Like uh but the thing that was interesting to me is like you described I started uh having and I still do to this day, just have random people walk up to me. Cause uh for those of you watching, I compete in USPSA, so I'm around gun culture people like all the time. Um, you know, so regularly I'm at matches and and you know, I travel to matches out of state and I've had so many people just walk up to me and they're like, Hey, are you Chris McCoy? Because in USPSA, when you sign up, you can see the names. And um, people might see my name and they obviously they don't think about it, but then they see me and I, you know, I'm I think I'm fairly unique looking. I'm like a you know, like tatted up big Asian dude, and people walk up and they're like, Hey, are you Chris McCoy? And I'm like, and you know, my personality, you know, my personality. I'm either very friendly or I'm very hostile. There's like no middle ground. I'm like, yeah, what's up? And they're like, hey, I saw you on a podcast. I'm like, oh, okay, cool. And then like the first time that happened, I was like, oh, that's cool. But it started happening with this unbelievable frequency. And then um the two incidents that stand out in my mind was uh I live in a really big, nice, property-managed, bougie like apartment, and uh I got on the elevator in the apartment, and a guy got on the elevator and was like, Are you Chris McCoy? And I was like, What? He was like, He's like, he goes, I swear to God, he goes, I just watched your podcast and then walked out of my house and got on the elevator, and you're on the elevator, like it was freaking him out, and like and um, and then uh the other one was um I just did a really big um training event on the West Coast with a special missions unit, and um, we were coming off the objective and those guys have the operators and then they have their enablers, like their engineers, they have like people that help them run the scenarios, and um one of their engineers was uh installing like a new door for the debts. You know, they came in and they blew the doors, and he was putting a new door up and he stopped and he came over to me, he put his nods up and he was like, Hey, are you Chris McCoy? And I was like, Yeah, what's up? And he's like, and he like heartily shook my hand. He's like, Man, I saw the pod. The pod was awesome, like, yeah, it's so cool, you know, like love what you're doing. And I was kind of freaked out. I'm like, dude, you're like with you're like you know, you're with like the special mission unit. I'm like some bro. And he like stopped at what he was doing and come over and like thanked me. I'm like, I don't know what you you know, it's just it's been kind of I wouldn't say it's been wild, but it's been cool. All the all the feedback's been awesome. Um, I was able to link up with an old Ranger buddy uh that kind of happened through the comments too. Shout out to Lionel Balloon, he had a very long, successful, highly respected career in the in the regiment. So it's been cool. It's been awesome. The whole experience has been rad.
HostYeah, I I mean, you're uh you're a deep thinker. You and I always have like deep conversations. Like, what do you what do you think it was about your story? And for one thing, I I think people didn't realize you had never like your face had never been shown on the internet, like even on your own social media, yeah. And that was like a thing you and I had talked about. You're like, ah, can you, you know, can you block my face? And then first I was like, nah, whatever. Uh, because we got hooked up through a mutual friend, and you hadn't been on a podcast. And I he had told me about you for probably I shout out to Jason Cam. Cam had told you about you five at like 12, 13, 14 years, and you know, your name had always come in and out, and then I started the podcast. Like, dude, you gotta interview Chris. And so I remember I remember when we we finally talked, and then I started listening to your story. I'm like, oh, this is this is gonna be legit. And then you come and you're like, hey man, I'm just gonna wear glasses. I'm like, right, right, nah, bro, we're doing this. Yeah, and so was it weird for you to become come out from behind that firewall?
Chris McCoyIt was. I mean, um, you know, the whole not showing my face on the internet thing, I got a lot of flack from it for some people, but uh it wasn't because I'm like some operator that has nothing to do with it, that's nothing to do with it. There was a very good reason I was hiding on my face, and it has nothing to do with the fact that like operator, blah blah blah, it had nothing to do with that. It was a confluence of my job and the things I was doing outside of work. And there was just a very strong reason for a long time that I wasn't showing my face on there. It's like it's if you knew what the reason was, it'd be very obvious. That would make a lot of sense. At one point, I was a train conductor for CSX and I was painting their trains every single night by the hundreds and thousands, and I didn't want my employer, if they happened, you know, to see my face. And then because I come from soft back in the day, people thought that I was trying to be some soft hardo and cover my face. I had nothing to do with that. You know, I was just like a I was not like some soft badass, I was just some dude, you know, like there's a million dudes like me out there. A well-known graffiti artist. Yeah. I mean, you had been featured in like Nat Geo graffiti uh well, not Nat Geo, but yeah, but I've been featured with lots of like graffiti publications and stuff like that. But uh that's been years since I've done that stuff.
HostSo the comment section like built its own version of you, which I thought was hilarious. What do you think people got right about you? And what do you think they got dead ass wrong, dude?
Chris McCoyUm, the comment section, let's touch on that a little bit, right?
HostFirst off, and just so you guys know, I tell all my guests when we release stuff, especially on YouTube, like Joe Rogan said it right, like stay out of the comments because they're you never know if they're bots, trolls, miserable people.
Chris McCoyUm but bro, you had an interesting well, the comments was interesting. I will say this. Um, if you commented at all, thank you. If you left a positive comment, like we really do thank you. There was some super sincere, just awesome comments in there. You can tell that there were there were people who were like leaving their real feelings in the comments. Oh, yeah. And the feedback, like that was surprising to me. I'm like, because I'm like, man, I'm just some guy on a podcast. Like, who gives a shit?
HostI'm just a random dude hitting a record button, like I'm a no.
Chris McCoyAnd people, man, you know, people were leaving awesome feedback, so I appreciate that. And if you left a shitty comment on there, um, that's cool too, man. You know, because uh YouTube just sees it as you spending a coin. So if you spend an angry coin or if you spend a good coin, thank you for leaving that. Um the thing about comments was interesting, like it kind of made me look into a little bit into like human psychology. And uh for one, if you have really strong opinions about what I did in my life, that's cool. But it really doesn't affect me because you weren't there, you know. I mean, it's like it'd be like if I had really strong opinions about your kids. You know, like whatever, they're still your kids at the end of the day. And the thing, you know, I don't want to dive, I don't want to give it too much energy, but I think the thing that I realized was like I really did like a self-assessment of the people that I look up to in my life. And the people that I know that are really successful and happy, like they just don't troll and leaving shitting comments on the internet. And the people that I know that really know about stuff aren't leaving opinionated comments on the internet. You know, like Brad Pearson isn't leaving comments about grappling and wrestling on the internet.
HostYou know, so but I do value the time, like you know, we we released some content about Vietnam recently. Well, I mean negative comments, I'm sorry. I want to clarify that negative comments, yeah. Yeah, because the positive comments where people kind of really open up, you know, there's a lot of people that touched with your story, but also other podcasts. Like sometimes certain I I tell people all the time, you know, we we make these long podcasts and they're kind of like books. And if you look at your books on a bookshelf, they kind of have the sum total of who you are. I think a lot of those different books add something different to your life, and that's kind of what this podcast is kind of how I look at it, right? Like, you know, now we're starting to build a library of books, and one book may not speak to your life, but one book may really change your life.
Chris McCoyUm I noticed that overall people think uh I didn't never I didn't realize this. People think I have like a nice speaking voice, or I'm a good storyteller. You're a very which I never really I've I've been told that before, but I never really put much thought into it. But I guess the public in general, the public thinks that. Also, we did a seven-hour podcast, and I did miss I did misuse a couple words, and you guys very friendly, very kindly, very helpfully pointed that out. Yes, I meant to say convalesce, not coalesce. That's true. All right, so you guys got me. All right, but seven hours, like I challenge you to sit in a chair and talk for seven hours and nail every word.
HostWe were smoked by the end of that, too, dude. We uh I think we did nothing after that that last podcast. Um, talk to me about Vic. If you guys aren't familiar with Vic, uh Vic is or was a uh a pagan motorcycle, I think, chapter president. Uh Chris grew up next to him. It was a very key part of his early part of his story. We cut a short that's probably almost the second most viral short about, you know, I think we were talking about Vic. Um, and he impacted your life younger, and then you went on to do things in your life. And everybody was kind of attached to that story. Like, what happened to Vic? What happened to Vic? What do we what did we find out?
Chris McCoyUm, that's really interesting to me. I didn't, I had no idea, you know, I was just narrating what happened to me. Yeah. For those of you who don't know, um I was basically adopted by my grandmother at 13 when I was put out of the house by my stepgrandma, right? Yeah, my stepgrandmother adopted me when I was 13. Uh, it was sort of like a forced adoption by my crazy, insane, psychopathic um stepmother. And she took me in and she lived in a nice little rancher kind of out in Baltimore County. Uh, not much money. And um, one of my neighbors who lived about 50 feet from my house was a high-ranking person in the Pagans Motorcycle Club. I don't know if he was a chapter president, but he was certainly a leader. He was certainly a somebody.
HostI might have promoted him.
Chris McCoyYeah. And his house was um, I want to say, sort of a de facto clubhouse because he had a motorcycle shop in there and he painted bikes, and he was like a hitter in the pagans, it was really well known. So there were always, always throngs of patched, cut-wearing pagan motorcycle gang members like next door to my house. And um, that was kind of an unusual situation to be raised in. And um, those dudes were always cool to me. And their their neighbor, Mr. Vic, Victor Anthony Castoratis. He had a pretty strong influence on me as a kid in a good way. And um, so we dove into that pretty deeply, and I found out in the comments it was cool because uh all the years I lived next door to him, I didn't know how to spell his last name. His name was Castoratas, which is you know kind of a very Greek sounding name. I didn't know how to spell it. And someone in the comments looked him up and found his name and found out where he was from, which lined up with you know what I was saying, that he owned a small bar, like a tiny little tavern, and then he passed away in 2023, I think. So uh to the person who did that research, man, thank you. Really I really appreciate that. I'm kind of bummed I didn't get to talk to him afterwards. Did it give you like a weird sense of closure? Um I think so a little bit. You know, I think like I hadn't talked to him in many years. It made me a little bummed out that I missed being able to find him and be like, hey man, you know, I was talking about you. But uh yeah, just another chapter in life and like um shout-outs to Victor Anthony Castoratis and the influence that it had on me. I hope you guys go back and see those episodes.
HostYeah, they're really good, man. You you've kind of had a year of strangers telling you your story kind of mattered to them. Has that changed the way you carry your story at all?
Chris McCoyUh no, not at all. Uh, I don't want to, you know, sound presumptuous or anything, but like I'm you know me well enough to know. Like, this is if you're out there watching, this is like literally how I am. Yeah, yeah. Chris does not have an off-camera persona. Chris is Chris 24-7. This is literally who I am all the time. If you're with me at work, at home, uh, you know, anywhere, this is who I am.
HostBut I think it's what I the thing that I most appreciate about, you know, because some well, there's other genuine people out there, but you know, there's some fake and phony people out there. Like you see it, you know, they they have this persona. I talked to one dude on the phone, and this guy also has a YouTube channel, and then I watch his YouTube channel, and he sounds nothing like he did on the phone.
Chris McCoyYou know, I know there's a lot of people out there watching, and you probably uh this is a pretty thick common thing I've experienced. You you almost certainly work with someone who wears a plastic mask. It's really prevalent in the workplace. But if you're out there watching this, I guarantee if you're watching and you're engaged in this and you're really paying attention to this, I guarantee a big portion of you out there, unless you own your own business, you work with some MFer who wears a weird plastic reptilian mask, and you just know that the person you're interacting with is like not that's their idea of what a human is acting like, right? I worked in STEM in the military for a long time, and there's a lot of people like that. But I think they're prevalent everywhere, you know. There's just people that put on a face.
HostI I always had a hard time in the workplace hanging out with people. Because you know, people have their work persona and then their off-life persona give or take. I'm kind of like you. I don't have yeah, I don't have two different and so I I could never hang like if you were a piece of shit at work, I I couldn't hang out with you outside of work, man. Because I think like who you are is who you are, and the moment you have start having multiple personalities, I don't know, man, you lose this sense of genuineness.
Chris McCoyAnd for me personally, I don't I mean there's definitely something to be said, you know, before the internet excoriates me. Of course, there's a way to act professionally at work. I get that. But you can tell there's certain people they very, very strongly put on a mask. Yeah. Um and it is what maybe, maybe they're forced to, or maybe they think they're forced to at work. But it I think it's just um just be who you are, bro. Just be who you are. I think that's why the internet reacted strongly to me, because I think they can tell I'm just like, you know, I am who I am, whether it be positive or negative.
HostYeah, you're authentic. And I and but I and you make no excuses for not only your shortcomings, but you make no excuses for who you are. And I think we need more of that, right? Like, I think so many people, you know, feel they have to change who they are to please somebody else.
Chris McCoyWell, before we get too deep into this self-flagellation project that we're working on, thank you for all the positive um feedback. It was rad, and thanks for the negative stuff too, because it just drove engagement.
HostYeah, you know what since we're talking about negative, let's go. So let's go to the first fun topic, dude. So you were in the old guard. Um told a story about 9 11. So Chris was on the range uh on September 11th when the Pentagon was hit. They responded, it was like what 30 minutes to an hour? Not even an hour, yeah. Like 30 minutes. They responded to the Pentagon. Um, Chris was there for 30 days. Um 28 days, yeah. I mean, you know, without reliving it, because we told that story on the pod tip, we cut a a series of videos actually about Chris's experience in 9-11. Um, and that's probably still the comment that comment section and that that uh on that YouTube video. If you ever want to grab some popcorn and go for a fun run on a YouTube comment section, my goodness, I would highly suggest that video.
Chris McCoyI haven't looked at those comments for those of you who are watching for the first time. Um I was before I was a ranger, I served in the 75th Ranger Regiment the majority of my military career, but before that, I spent about two years in a unit that is colloquially known as the Old Guard, but they're officially designated the Third Infantry Regiment, and they're stationed in Fort Meyer, and those are the guys that you see in Arlington National Cemetery wearing the dress blues. Were you there when Mike Glover was there? Uh, I don't know. Um, but they're mostly known for the guards of the tomb of the unknown soldier. That's very well known. But they they sub that unit supports a bevy of jobs down there. They do burials, they do ceremonies, they do um diplomatic arrivals, they do all the horse uh the dog and pony show, beautiful looking ceremonial things. You'll all you'll all almost always see them in color guard events or the White House, things like that. But what is less known is that unit is a functioning military unit, and they're known as um DC's contingency army unit. So, like uh in the case of let's say a theoretical, you know, outsider invasion, um, that unit would be mobilized as an actual functioning infantry unit. And on 9-11, um, we were on 9-11, on September 11th, 2001, we were executing some of our function as a training unit. The vast majority of stuff you do when you're a member of the old guard is going to be ceremonial-based. And also like, I don't want to say maintenance of, but like um the logistical duties that go into Arlington National Cemetery, right? Like, we don't know the grass or anything like that, but you know, we're the unit that's assigned there, along with a couple other units too. But on this particular day, we were executing the function of training as infantrymen because we're all actual infantrymen. So we were at a range and we were shooting AT4 simulators. And for those of you who have been in the Army or the Marine Corps, or maybe some other units, um, the AT4 is an anti-tank rocket, and the way you train on is using blanks. They're tracer nine millimeter blanks. So we're at a range and we're shooting uh AT4 simulators, and a guy comes walking out and he's like, Hey, um, the Pentagon just got hit. And the Pentagon is right next door to Fort Meyer. It's, you know, it's like a minute away, right? And we kind of left it off, like, what are you talking about? The Pentagon got hit. And he's like, hold on. And like he came back with a really big sense of urgency. He was like, the Pentagon's but hit by an airplane. We gotta, we gotta get out of here. So we all mustered and we got on LMTVs, which I don't even know if they have LMTVs anymore in the military, but we got on, we got on cattle trucks essentially, rolled um down I down the middle of the highway in DC, went to the barracks, grabbed our our bug out bags, and then we hopped back in the LMTVs and we drove down to the Pentagon. Do you guys keep ready bags? Well, it wasn't like ready bags, they just gave us a quick packing list of throw a bunch of shit in a fucking Alice, right? Because in the regiment, you don't keep one ready bag, you keep three ready bags. You keep an uh, I think you keep a uh Bravo Charlie Delta bag. But in Olgaard, I think I can't remember, but I I think you keep a Charlie bag. But either way, we had we had some stuff on Tuck. We did a quick pack up when we rode down there. And um we came around, I you know, I talked about this on the last pod, but I remember we came around the the corner in the huge parking lot, and looking out of the back of the LM TV, this is a uh truck that's covered in the back, and I was sitting in the back where the back is open. There was a bunch of you, right? Yeah, oh yeah, there's a whole unit. And um, or at least my company, we were all together. And we came around the the corner in the parking lot, and I just remember seeing I've never seen something like this before. And there's been a couple moments in my life, and I'm sure if you're watching, there's been a couple moments in your life where you see something, you just realize like I've never seen something like this before, I'm never gonna see something like this again. It was a pillar of black oil smoke that looked like a gigantic mountain. And I can just remember I've never seen smoke that thick that it just it almost looked solid. And I just remember looking up at it, and it looked like a mountain, like a gigantic mountain of thick black oil smoke. And I could just see how pillowy and dark and thick it was. And then we kept driving, and I saw a man walking, and this this is still very much burned in my memory, but he was in um he was in a short-sleeved dress uniform with all his medals and accoutrements on it, and he had a big head wound, and he had a like a training towel on his head, and there was he was pouring blood out of his head. He was leaking. There was blood pouring out of his head. And another guy was walking with him in a dress uniform, and they were he was a general. And I was shocked, I just couldn't believe it. Like there was a general there who's terribly injured. The guy was staggering and walking with blood pouring out of his head. And you know, I was a kid, man. I was like 21, 22 years old. And I just knew that I was seeing something incredible. So, like, not incredible, but I knew that I was seeing something significant. But the magnitude of what it was certainly didn't register with me. I mean, there was no 9-11 before that, right? So we mustered the trucks and then we posted up right there in the main parking lot of the Pentagon. And the first thing we did was um we helped set up a ton of GP medium tents. Uh, for those of you who've never served in the military, a GP medium tent is everyone who's ever served in the military in any branch knows what a GP medium tent. It's the general purpose, medium-sized tent that the U.S. military uses in every branch. It's a very easy to set up, hasty field structure that a couple guys can set up. And um, if you've ever served in the military in any capacity, you've spent at some point, you've spent time.
HostEvery change of command, you got to pull the stupid things out of a conics box, clean them, open them, put them back together.
Chris McCoyYeah, if you're in a field unit, you've lived in them for days at a time. Like, you know, everyone out there, every military guy out there is gonna flinch at the sound of GP medium, right? Uh, but we set up a ton of GP medium tents, and um they just there was a ton of activity there. There was hundreds, thousands of people there. There was, of course, all kinds of different government agencies there. And since we're DC's military contingency outfit, we were parted out to people. Like, so a guy would come over and be like, Hey, I need five people, hey, I need seven people, yeah, I need nine people. And we lived right there. We we set our stuff up and we lived there right on the lawn, probably within I I want to say less than a football field's distance away from the actual aperture where the Pentagon was struck. We were there for 28 days, and we did a whole variety of crazy jobs over there. The fire suppression and the site stabilization itself were handled by a different unit. And what we did was um later on in the deployment, we did mortuary affairs, like body recovery, and then we were just assisting where we were needed. So I was right there staring at that huge hole in the Pentagon for 28 days, like watched the whole fire suppression, been all through those hallways. You know, I said on last one, like I that's the first time I saw like um real death and devastation. You know, I I'd seen some stuff, you know, growing up in Baltimore before that, but like nothing like this. This was this was on a you know, shocking scale.
HostThe 9-11 conspiracy is a topic that's been, you know, heavily talked about in the last 20 years. Um big time. It's an interesting topic because people feel very passionately about it, and rightfully so, right? I mean, it was not only a massive attack on America, it it spawned we could argue it spawned 25 years of war. Um very interesting. And you know, there's this idea that a missile hit um the Pentagon, or you know, there's all kinds of stuff. That's what most of the people, you know, were talking about because you you you made some comments. Well that you, you know, talk about what you saw, but I mean you saw parts, things that would be consistent.
Chris McCoyI can like I'm talking about this outside of the scale of the Vanguard Wall podcast, and of course this is gonna drive engagement, but like when I went there, I was a kid, right? And the concept of being a shill is like hilarious. Like, who am I shilling for? You know, like who's paying me to say these incredible lies? Nobody's paying us, that's for sure. Right, right. 25 years later, am I being paid by some Mossad agent to tell a lie about what I saw at the Pentagon when I was a kid? Like, it's crazy to me. But um, people feel very strongly about what happened over there, and um over the years, I I want to say probably about the time I think I started noticing after I came home from my last appointment, probably in like oh seven, I started having people tell me what I saw there, and I just kind of like didn't pay attention. And I was like, how the f could you weren't there? Like, how the f could you tell me what I saw? Right? That'd be like if I told you what it was like at your wedding. I'd be like, no, your wife didn't wear a white dress, bro. She wore a red dress. You'd be like, What? I'm like, no, you're a shill. You're being paid by big wedding dress to like, you know what I mean? It's like it's crazy, right? So and then like, and that was a key event in my life, you know. I'm sure if you're out there listening, you've had key events in your life that are burning. Well, 9-11 was a key event for the country.
HostLike, everybody remembers, unless you were like too young. Like everybody remembers where they were in 9-11.
Chris McCoyRight. So most people remember at least where they were on 9-11, where they heard the news. Like, dude, I was at the Pentagon. Like, I know what I saw. So, look, what I saw with my eyeballs was a massive, massive, massive hole in the front of the Pentagon, which everyone, everyone saw. I was there on site, and this is gonna get me torn to pieces on the internet. That's fine, right? It's not gonna change. But in front of the hole was a huge, sorry, a huge debris field of thousands and thousands, I don't want to say millions, but like an uncomprehensible amount of debris. And me and Pierce used to go around picking this shit up and like laughing about it. It was pieces that were anywhere from like thumbnail size to I want to say the size of a human arm of like thin aircraft skin metal where it was metal on one side. They were all the all the ones I saw were white, they were white on one side, and on the inside had a honeycomb, like hard plastic foam, like you could tell was glued to it, and it looked like it was confetied, it was like shredded. And these were in a debris field that was as far as the eye could see. And then there were two things that I saw inside of the aperture. One I saw after the fire suppression, after the fire was out, that it that it it was, you know, it wasn't on, and then one I saw while the fire was still going on. I definitely saw a big, huge turban, you know, like with the center cone on it and like the fans on it. And it would the thing is I was outside of the Pentagon, and whatever this thing was, it had gone in and it it turned around. So it was facing out. It was a huge center wheel with turban fans on it. And then after fire suppression was done, because I was all through all those rings, I can't remember the order of the rings were, but I think it's alpha through echo. But um, I've been in all of those rings, and the x the the mass and the debris had penetrated through the rings, and on the last ring was penetrated by a hole that was like really small, like, you know, I want to say less than eight foot. Maybe the engineers had hammered the wall out a little bit more around it to vent it. They the way they ended up suppressing the fire was through tons of water, and they put massive, massive, massive industrial fans in there to blow the fire and the water together. But um I saw definitely like a huge uh like a landing gear assembly. Like, you know, landing gear on a plane is very distinct looking, right? It's definitely the pole with the arm and the two big wheels on it. And this thing was massive. I don't know. It was definitely certainly bigger than a man, you know. So there was a huge, burnt up, twisted, you know, destroyed-looking landing gear assembly in there, and the huge turbofan in there. Um, so take with that as you will. I'm sure if you're listening to this, you've got very strong opinions on what I saw or what I didn't see, or who's paying me, or who I'm shilling for, or whatever fuck. Like, I don't care. But I that's what I saw. And I saw a shitload of bodies because I was involved. Like a most of the bodies that were in there were um, I would say beyond dismembered. They were shredded. The people the people in there when that thing hit the Pentagon were were torn into pieces. I mean, like small pieces. Um, so there was a ton, a ton, a ton of bodies in there. There was a ton of destruction and wreckage, and um it's really weird to me. I don't understand why people get so upset about this. Has been a phenomenon I've dealt with my entire life. Because I was I was involved in two things that are like the hub of like modern American conspiracy, right? Like I was I was actually at 9-11 and I was very close friends with Pat Tillman. And I me personally, I've just been, and I as incredible as that is, I might be one of the only people, you know. Maybe I'm the only person who had those two relationships with those two pinnacle things. Like I wasn't historic, but I just happened to be there when history was being made. And I have had people telling me literally my entire life what I saw or what really happened or what you know, what the platoon was thinking. Like I've dealt with this my whole life, my whole adult life. So this is nothing new to me. And um, you know, I think based on your personality that that um decides a lot how you're gonna deal with it, you know me. I'm like very unapologetic. It's not that I'm unapologetic. I'm like straight up, I'm like if I'm either your best friend or I'm extremely hostile. And I think that's just the result.
HostI mean, you've said it before, it's because growing up extremely traumatized, but like um what do you think it is about the 9-11 conspiracy that people get like that conspiracy side of the and look, man, I I I mean COVID changed a lot, right? I don't want to talk about COVID too much. I'll get my channel probably banned.
Chris McCoyBut ladies and gentlemen, this is one of the strongest conspiracy theories. I mean, this man is this man has some strong opinions.
HostYeah, I do, yeah, very strong opinions. And I keep a lot of them to myself because I don't want to ever pretend like I know, like I have theories about 9-11, I have theories about a lot of things, but I don't ever pretend to know, like, oh, I know what happened.
Chris McCoyLike, I feel like I'm not telling you, I've just I like I was there and I was a kid, and I it's not that I was a kid, I was a young man. I was a young private first class in the army. I would have been, I'm sorry, I would have been 22 going on, 23 years old, and that's what I saw.
HostYeah, and this is deeply imprinted in my life because this is a well, I think the thing too, man, was when I heard you say that there was an engine thing in there, that was one of the big things the conspiracy people had said no engine was ever found, you know, everything got shredded on impact, or you know, but I I do think sometimes people can feel strongly about the you were we were talking about this morning. People can feel strongly about something, and then they they make their argument around what they feel instead of what the facts show, you know.
Chris McCoyYou want to believe what you want to believe. Like, I honestly about the Tillman thing, that's you know, we're gonna talk about really strong opinions about the Tillman thing who never met him. And I like I not only met him, I served with him, he was a super close friend of mine. His brother and I are still very good friends today. Kevin, love you, bro. Like the the thought that people outside of what happened, the thought of people telling me what happened is incomprehensible. There's people who've told me what happened at the Tillman incident who weren't alive when it happened. And they're telling, you know, that's that's crazy to me.
HostWell, I mean, the internet is also a strange place in the fact that it gives people a voice for good and bad, and then they get away.
Chris McCoyDude, the internet's a strange place, period. Yeah, that's just let's put it that way.
HostYeah, yeah. The the 9-11 thing is just always uh again, man, the the people came out of the woodworks on the 9-11. I only I would just spot read it, and then I'm just like, I there's no like you can't convince people. I'm all about open dialogue. I I think there's fun. Um, I love to have a good conversation.
Chris McCoyWell, there was a lot of vitriol, which I thought was crazy. Like, you know, like I understand having strong opinions about it. It was like one of the pinnacle events in American history, if you think about it. Oh, yeah. Whether whether it was staged by the government or whatever your feelings are on it are, but like uh people had a lot of vitriol about it. I don't think that they honestly have vitriol towards me. I think they just have strong feelings about it in general. I just happen to be Do you have any thoughts on the whole 9-11 conspiracy? Um, I do. I would probably I me personally, like, I would prefer not to dive into that shit here. But I'll say this my thoughts about the 9-11 conspiracy, I guarantee you, line up more strongly with yours rather than what you think. You know, I'm I'm pretty sure you're a patriotic person, but very yeah.
HostYeah, the second thing that you actually just alluded to, the the second like most comments that we got. Um, you and I took a very unique approach when we talked about Tillman. Um, well, I don't think it was unique. He is was somebody that was uh like a very important person to you. You're so close with his brother, and so you were very adamant about the way you wanted to talk about him, which I thought was awesome. So we focused on all the positive stuff. You had some great the Volvo story, is still probably my favorite. Um that short's still going. I think I just put it on Facebook recently and I got millions of views. Yeah. But you know, we you know, you we we talked about you know his impact on your life, and a lot of people, again, man, had a lot of crazy shit to say in the comments about how you guys killed him. And I mean, you were at Ranger School when he was actually killed, but that was your platoon. It was actually your weapon uh that was assigned to you. Um, and we don't need to dive into that, we cover that in the in the first section. But you know, the comments that there is this thing where people believe like that conspiracy that the government killed him and his platoon killed him. And man, you know, it was the absolute fog of war. And that's been and look, man, I think people really forget like there's been a lot of people, there's been a lot of people that were killed accidentally in war. There's been a lot more in the GWAT. I mean, there's dudes in the unit that were, you know, killed fractureside I've got a guy coming on the podcast.
Chris McCoyTillman's not the only ranger who was killed by friendly fire. Exactly. It's just because of him, I think, in his Tillman is not the only ranger who's killed by friendly fire. He and there have been other rangers in each battalion who've been killed by friendly fire.
HostSame in the unit. Like I I'm aware of people that were shot in the unit by other unit. There was unit.
Chris McCoyThere were you for the unit, for those of you who don't know, Delta Force CAG, CAG guys have accidentally killed each other in war. Rangers from every battalion have, unfortunately. These are terrible things. Yeah, war sucks, man. SEALs, Green Berets, Marines, Army, their fratricide is a inevitable, horrible, awful part of war. And it's been happening since the first days of armed conflict.
HostYeah, think about it. I mean, two dudes are in a sword fight, and you're you're you're you're sword fighting for your life, and it's you know, the 1300s, and all of a sudden, you know, your buddies running up to help you, and you're in this mad and you s, you know, swing a sword and fucking cut your friend. Like, you know, then we started inventing weapons that could, you know, shoot faster than sound. Like, and then you throw darkness and chaos and night vision and you know, jacked up comms. Um, so I want to address the Tillman stuff.
Chris McCoyNo, let's do it. Um and I look I pulled this up. So for people out there listening, uh Oxford and Webster's both to define a conspiracy as an agreement between two or more people acting in secret to gain an advantage or to harm others, typically through unlawful or deceptive means. There definitely was a conspiracy about the death of Patrick Tillman. There was a conspiracy about the death of my very dear friend and our very dear friend, Patrick Tillman. Our very, very dear friend, who we legitimately loved, died. And there was a conspiracy about his death. A very deceptive, a very ugly, a very manipulative, a very scheming conspiracy about his death. And that conspiracy was mostly enacted by four people and went up the chain. And if you don't mind, I'll name those four people. Because they've been named publicly. The battalion commander, uh Bailey, the regimental commander, Nixon. The ops officer Hodney, who became a general, and the CO Saunders, right? Those men actively participated in a conspiracy to conceal his the nature of his death. One of them was on site the next mother day, on the ground, and decided that he was going to conceal the way in which Pat was killed to Pat's brother Kevin. Yeah, because I think a lot of people I'm gonna, if you don't mind, I'm real I'm gonna go down this farther, right? Because I feel really strongly about this. But I think a lot of people don't realize that Kevin Tillman was there. Yes, Kevin was there when his brother was killed, all right? So I'm not I'm not denying that there was a conspiracy. And the thing is, I'm gonna put a little finging light on this because I feel very strongly about this. Because my very good friend was killed over there, which is horrible. Pat's not the only friend I've lost in combat, but Pat was certainly the closest friend I've lost in combat. And his death was covered up the next the next day by someone, right? And I'm gonna read off the charges that happened to those people. The BCO got a formal reprimand afterwards, after everything came out. The regimental commander got a letter of concern. The ops major was sanctioned and later promoted to general. And the CO got a written reprimand. Those guys got nothing. There was no penalty on them. Who gives a f right? Who cares about a letter of concern? Right? The the Rangers involved in the shooting obviously were gone immediately. The best officer I've ever met in my life, David Ootlaut, was thrown out for no reason. David Ootlaut, had Saunders just listened to his input on the ground, none of this would have happened. Can you explain just a little bit? Like, I'm I'm sorry, I'm I don't mean to cut you off, I'm just fired up about this, right? The best NCO I've ever met was thrown out of. Eric Godick, the best NCO I've ever met, was thrown out of here. David Ootlaut's not the best officer I've ever met. David Ootlaut might be the best soldier I've ever met. David Ootlaut, Kellett Sarah and Eric Godick and Tom Fuller, I think those are the best American soldiers I've ever met. They're the perfect, perfect soldiers. And Eric Godick and David Ootlaut were thrown out after that event. And the thing that I want to say is that there was a conspiracy the next day by these people to cover up the nature of his death. Because why? Because it made the brand look bad. That's 100% it. His death was a big, catastrophic, ugly, terrible, awful f up. And f ups happened in war. And it made the brand look bad. And these four people immediately, immediately made a decision. They weren't, and I want to put this out there, and I don't care what the Ranger community says, I don't care what the soft community says, I don't care what the comments say. This is for Kevin. This is for Kevin and this is for Mary and this Marie. Those four people decided immediately to make a decision to cover up and change and be deceptive about the nature of his death. And instead of thinking like soldiers, they didn't think like soldiers. At the moment of Pat's death, they didn't think like soldiers. They didn't think, man, we need to take care of our people. They thought about their careers. The first thing they thought about, the first thing Hodney and Bailey and Nixon, the first thing those guys thought about was their career. They didn't think, man, another ranger has been killed. We need to take care of these guys. They didn't think about that. They thought about their careers. And because of that, and I don't care if I get represent I don't, what are those guys going to do to me, right? I don't care what kind of juice General Hodney has now. That doesn't affect me at all. I don't work for the Army anymore. But they thought about their careers and what's happened because of this bullshit thing that they put in act is now 23 years later. I'm sorry, 22 years later, people on the internet have taken the conspiracy and twisted it into something that's horrific to imply that us, his family, the dudes that loved him, purposefully killed him, which is insane. Like you've never served in an infantry platoon, you've never been in combat. You've probably never even met somebody that was in combat. You don't understand how close you get with these dysfunctional, awesome people that you serve with. Think about somebody you really care about, that you've really done stuff with. Maybe you worked with them or we're on a ball team with them or just spend a lot of time with them. And think about killing them because they're it's like think about killing them purposefully because someone told you to. That's incomprehensible. But the problem is that Bailey, Nixon, Hodney, and Saunders made this decision to save their careers or manipulate their careers, and it worked brilliantly for them. These fing guys, half of them became generals, even with their letters of reprimand and their written concerns and all that bullshit. They thought about their careers first. They didn't think about people, they didn't think about their soldiers.
HostCan you talk about what happened so people can understand why they made those decisions and what contributed to that?
Chris McCoyIt's very simple. I'm not going to go deeply into the story of the story. The story is out there. It's very easy to find. You can go out there right now and find all the details of what happened there. You can find comprehensive BDAs. You can find comprehensive after action reports. It's all public. But basically, the platoon was moving in an area. They had a vehicle breakdown, and the commander on the ground, the young captain, David Ootlaut, who was a West Point Valedictorian, by the way, right? This is a fantastic, fantastic ranger and soldier. This is a young captain who you should put the most faith in possible, right? This is a young ranger captain who's like the head of his class at West Point, right? Who, who better to trust on the ground and make a decision to call you up and say, hey, we're having a problem with vehicles on the ground. We're not going to be able to get to this arbitrary point within the arbitrary amount of time that you've given us. And I want to make it clear, yes, there was a hit time. The platoon had to go from here to here and be here by a certain amount of time. But here, where they were going was not a mission. They weren't going to do a raid. They weren't going to go do a hit. There was no co-joined air. They weren't meeting anyone on a specific time. This was just an arbitrary NLT that they had to get to. And Ootlaut made a call and said, Hey, we're having a problem with the vehicles. I don't think we're going to get there on time. And the person who was in the jock 44 miles away, and they didn't have air. There wasn't ISR. This is just a phone call, basically, radio call. Told him in no specific terms, you will be there by NLT this time. I don't give a f make it happen. You're going to split the group up, and some guys are going to get there and they're going to possess that area, and then the rest are going to come up afterwards. And Ootlaut said in no uncertain terms, that's a bad idea. I don't want to do that. That's a really bad idea. This area we're going to go into is very like difficult to navigate. The sun is going down, like we're in a deep, steep canyon. The light is crazy. Like, you know, there's been fire in this area. I don't want to split the group up. And it was Indian country. Like there was an armed insurgency out there. Hardcore Wild West. Enemy territory. And back at the jock, they were like, I don't give a F. You're going to do this because I said you're going to do this. If he had just listened to what Ootlaut was saying, none of this would have fing happened. But Ootlaut, because he's a fine soldier, one of the best human beings I've ever met, Colonel David Ootlaut. Yes, sir, Roger. And he split the convoy up. And during that split movement, there was a bunch of chaotic interaction. If they did take fire, they were fired back. There was incoming mortar fire. There was all kinds of shit. When those groups were split up, we'll just call them one and two. Serial one was kinetic, serial two was taking fire, and they sort of, I don't want to like go into the BDA of all this shit. But basically, they came to an area in which they were split by a terrain feature. They couldn't see each other. And both of them were firing up into one area because they had taken fire from that area.
HostYeah, didn't the platoon sergeant or the platoon leader? Didn't one of them get shot in the face?
Chris McCoyYeah, Ootlaut was shot in the face. Ootlaut was shot in the face. Jade Lane. Shoutouts, Jade Lane. Love you, buddy. Guy I partied relentlessly with Jade Lane and I. Jade Lane and I. Jade was very much, we were part of our little social crew. Jade Lane. Jade Lane was shot in the knee and the round spiraled down his leg and broke his leg. Um was shot in the face. Uh a bullet goes through his face. Just by the grace of God, he happened to be uh had his mouth open, was yelling a command. Like, ah, and the round went through, knocked out his tooth and came out of his cheek. I'm pretty sure I had his mouth been closed. He'd have been had his freaking face blown off. I don't know. Not a doctor. But the two groups were separated by terrain feature. They were firing up at a common enemy. That enemy withdrew. Pat came over the hill and unfortunately was hit. You know? And uh I talked to the man that shot him for about two hours before I came down here, like a couple days ago. The guy that fired on him and hit him ultimately was the guy that I trained on the gun, and he used my issued weapon to do it. My issued uh 240 Bravo machine gun. And he was with another guy. There were several people firing in that direction at the same time. But Steven had maybe the one that hit him. And uh Steve and I had a long talk about it, and like, you know, love that guy.
HostYeah, I can't imagine what it's like for him to go through that. I mean, dude, to be to have that happen to you, a person that again, man, I know what that guy meant to your unit. Yeah, it's incomprehensible, dude. That guy's had to live with that, and I'm sure I I know you and I have talked about it before, like, Jesus, man, like war is hell.
Chris McCoyYou want to talk about redemption. I mean, I've I've been messed up by a lot of things that happen to me. Yeah, a lot of vets out there have, but that guy's carried a lot of weight.
HostBut I but I the way he's dealt with it has been unbelievable. He's been but I think it's important for the listeners to know who've never been in a gunfight, especially in the middle of Afghanistan, there is a chaos that happens in a war. And even the most well-trained units. Um and I I I do believe that you know the conspiracy started early. Obviously, as you stated, for them to cover up their you know, their But I want to say this definitively.
Chris McCoyI want to say this definitively. If you're listening out there and you've got very strong opinions on us having killed our friend and there being a conspiracy, yes, there was a conspiracy. The people you should be directing your anger at are Bailey, Nixon, Hodney, and Saunders. Because those officers, those meddlers, those schemers put this conspiracy into play. And the thing that's horrific about it is now Mary and Marie and Kevin have to deal with this bullshit. They've sullied Pat's name. The th like his name has been forever hurt by the like the best human being we knew. His name, I mean, he died in a tragic accident. It's fed up. It's horrible. But the D-Boys that were killed in friendly fire, the 175 Rangers that were killed in friendly fire, the SEALs out there were killed in friendly fire. Those stories are out there too, and those dudes are fed up from. It's horrible. But his name was torn up. His name and his reputation was thrown through the mud by these people. So if you've got vitriol about what happened, direct it at those people. Those people were like upper management. Upper management, like grunts on the lowest ground don't even have the juice to like put together something like that. What is an E what is an E7 gonna say to a battalion commander?
HostYeah, you told me an interesting story. Um, when you know you were at Ranger School when this happened, and you you came back from Ranger School as the unit was coming back from Afghanistan, and you know, you you said goodbye to your you know, your your platoon leader.
Chris McCoyYeah, talk about that. So I was in ranger school when Pat was killed. Uh we went deep diving and what happened in Ranger School. It was a crazy story about that, and trying to leave Ranger School and all that stuff. But I came back from Ranger School and I was in the barracks, uh, I think it was on a Saturday, and the barracks were mostly empty. The platoon had come back, and um I woke up early and I went out for a really long run. I remember this very clearly. Went out for a long run. Uh, I came back and I was in the command hallway. Uh, you know, I'm like shirtless, sweating, like panting after a long run. I come in the Koran hallway, and uh Ootlaud is there, David Ootlaud is there, and he's got a he's got a sea bag with him. And uh he's packing up his stuff and he's getting ready to check out. And I kind of trot up to him and was like, Are you getting out of here, man? Are you getting out of here, sir? Sir. He's like, Yeah, and this is like the friendliest, kindest person who's ever lived. This is like the most warm, genuine, authentic human being who's ever lived. Like, this is this is one of the greatest people I've ever met, David Ootlaut. And uh a lot of rangers out there have served with him. And if you've out there and you've served with David Ootlaut, you know what kind of just incredible, special, brilliant human being this guy. David Ootlaut's the best of us. And I'll never forget this. He had a sea bag with him, he's like, Yeah, I'm getting out of here. And I was like, All right, sir, it was awesome being with you, man. You know, like I shook his hand, you know, and he said to me, He's like, Man, the worst thing is like I'm gonna leave here, I'm not gonna be a ranger anymore. And I I didn't even think about it, I just looked and I was like, What are you talking about? You're always gonna be a ranger. And he heard me say that and he like broke down. He broke down, he like like very manly broke down, covered up his face, turned and walked down the parking lot and left. Because I think he just couldn't, he couldn't like the weight of it all, you know? And my reaction was so like what are you talking about? You'll always be a ranger, you know? I think maybe he hadn't heard that before. And years later, we reconnected. I just went to the I we had a black sheep reunion, like a Tillman guys reunion. I spent a weekend with him and I still talk to him now, and like uh fantastic, brilliant human being. There's been a lot of redemption in his life. He ended up coming, he ended up spending some time in the big army. He spent some time down at Fort Jackson. He was actually very um David Ootlaut was very influential on changing the way that the army processes new recruits. Um, he put into implementation. This guy thought up, designed, and implemented a program that takes new recruits to the U.S. Army through boot camp and um um basic instruction, not boot camp, through basic instruction and OSIT and AIT. And it focuses on their mental, physical health, their strength and conditioning, and their nutrition. And what they're trying to do is raise the floor for some of the lower candidates and compress the gap between the upper and the lower candidates. And his program was wildly, wildly quantitatively data-driven successful. So he was um decorated big time for that, which, you know, like he deserved. I mean, this guy really changed the way that the U.S. Army treats new recruits. And then he ended up going back to regiment and um took over his special troops battalion. So that was a that was like a I feel like that was a good closed loop. Yeah, he pended 06 while he was there. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, we had a long talk about that. And I feel like this is this is a person I feel very strongly about. Like, you know, if you never met him, you know, every now and then some people come along in your lives. And I would say David Ootlaut was as influential in my life, maybe as Pat Telman was. These are very special people that came along.
HostYeah, you also had a lot to say last night when we were talking about your platoon sergeant that was also cannibalized during this bullshit witch hunt.
Chris McCoyUm Eric Godick. I've got a lot of fond memories of Eric Godick. Um, so I write a lot about my experiences in the Ranger Regiment. I try and write about the human elements. I think there's a lot of veterans out there who um they like to tell war porn stories. No shit. There I was. Gunfire everywhere. And then I did this heroic thing. A la Tim Kennedy and his bag of 50 grenades. But they like they don't talk about the human aspects like of these people that they interact with. So I write about that kind of stuff a lot. And like um, I want to talk about Eric Godick. Um back then, we had a different naming convention for the positions in the platoon. Back then, the platoon sergeant was radio designated as five, right? It's something different now, but this is not OPSEC, this is a long time ago. So we were second platoon, he's the platoon sergeant. We called him colloquially 2-5, right? So Eric Godick will always be 2-5 to those of us who served with him. He was the um, he was the epitome of like a ranger platoon sergeant. He was um wiry, hard as nails, always had a huge lip of dip. Uh, he had jumped in Panama, he had served with 175, he kind of had a strange route to the regiment, and then worked his way up and became a platoon sergeant in 275 and um tough as f nails, really dry sense of humor, really, really, really cared about his men, but he's one of those unique individuals who had a really strong ability to um at the same time highly enforce discipline and standard, and also have like a sort of detached, cool warmth to his men. Like, he wasn't, I wouldn't say he was a father figure, but he definitely had a little bit more of like a warm energy to him. But this is the ranger regiment we're talking about, right? That's not your bro, right? That's like a that's something that will hurt you if you mishandle it, right?
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyBut he had just the unusual ability to be like a strong, warm presence for his men, as well as being the hardcore standard, the motherfucking 75th Ranger Regiment standard of what a soldier should be. And um, everyone who served alongside him had, I mean, he's one of the best soldiers I've ever met. He was influential in the deepest way to like how I approach soldiering, what I think a fine soldier should be. Um, I remember one time we were in Yakima, um, and I think this kind of sums him up. We're in Yakima. For those of you who don't know what Yakima is, Yakima is a massive, massive training area that's in uh eastern Washington. It's not quite desert, it's not quite scrubland, it's just a big, arid, massive rolling area of nothingness. And uh it's close enough that the Rangers often fly out there, we parachute in, and we spend a lot of time out there in the dirt shooting stuff, blowing up stuff, driving around vehicles, doing all manner of ranger things. Not the Rangers aren't the only people that use it, but the second Rangers, that's something that we're we go there all the time, right? Um fly out, parachute in, walk 30 miles back to the one-stop light town. Um, if you're a ranger from 275, you've been you've had your dick in the dirt in Yakima more times than you can count. So uh we're fly out to Yakima, and Yakima whips everyone's ass. No one likes Yakima, right? Yakistan. If you're listening and you've been to Yakima, you know what I'm talking about. That place sucks. Um, well, it sucks to train there, right? If you live in Yakima, I don't know, but going out to Yakima's tough. It's like our version of NTC. So you go out to Yakima, you're getting your ass kicked, and uh, we're out in Yakima one time, and um we had been out there I don't know how long. We've been out there a week. We're getting punished, right? We're getting our asses kicked. And I wake up in the patrol base and I just barely opened my eyes, and the dude had come down in the middle of the night. It's freezing cold, we're all wet, laying on the ground. And it was before BMNT. So it was before morning nautical twilight. So it was before the sun had actually crested the line of the horizon, and there was just sort of that not even red, but sort of that grayish glow of the sun that's about to come up. So you can just sort of discern like dark from darker dark. And I sit up and I'm like, fuck, I'm in the patrol base, everything hurts, you're exhausted. Like, you got uh 90 minutes of sleep, maybe just enough to get down into deep sleep. So then when you wake up, it's like being detonated back into the world again. And I sit up, I'm like, ugh, and I look up, and there's this guy standing over top of me, and I can smell fresh shaving cream and hot coffee. And I kind of like look up, and Goduk was standing over me, and he had he was freshly shaved, and f he had an old-fashioned metal canteen cup with hot coffee in it. I don't know how the fuck he did this, right? And I looked up and I'm like, and he looked down at me with his big, ever-present, massive lip. And this guy always had a grizzly in his mouth, like this. And he's like, Hey, look who decided to join the land of the living. And I was just like Roger Sarn. And he goes, Are you okay? Yeah, Roger Son. He's like, Cool, get your fucking shit together. And like I remember this, he kind of walked off like the way a cat does, the way a cat picks his way through. He was walking very quietly through through the PB because most of the guys are still asleep. And I just remember thinking, How in the fuck did he do that, dude? I'm dying. I'm I'm dying. And this guy got up and shaved and he's got hot coffee. He's like kind of casually strolling around checking his man, how the fuck did he do that? So many years later, um, you know, after the military, he retired as a master serent, he moved overseas, he married a woman overseas, and he got really into um he got really into like um long distance bice bike riding. Um and I called him one day, I talked to him one day, and I told him that little story, and I was like, I gotta ask you, dude, now that the years have gone by and we're all out, like how like I was an NCO, you know what I mean? And I've gotten up early and checked on my man. This I was like, all the years I was with you, I never saw you tired ever. How the fuck did you do it? Because I know what it was like. I did that job, and it's hard. It's fucking being an NCO in the 7th Ranger Regiment is not an easy job. It's like the hardest fucking job. I was like, how the fuck did you do it? And he goes, Man, he's like, I I was getting my ass kicked worse than you, dude. He's like, I'm not any bigger or stronger, better than you. He's like, I was getting fucked up. He's like, but he said something pretty profound to me. He's like, I just made sure that you guys never saw me that way because I knew that if you guys saw me tired or busted out or worn out, it would, it would hurt the way that you were able to manage your day. But if you the first thing you do is you wake up and you see me awake and fit and shaved and ready to go. He's like, that's gonna let you know, like, hey, I gotta, I gotta get my shit together. It's gonna keep the group functioning. So in essence, he was taking more punishment, he was losing sleep. Yeah, like he was sacrificing his personal comfort to make sure that we were led correctly. You know, and to me, that's like such a you know I've served with a lot of guys, and I've served with famous rangers who were assholes. They were fantastic shooters, fantastic uh fighters, but as people, they were shitty people. But this was a good person and he thought that way, you know what I mean? You know, he was already good at all the hard ranger skills. He could hump, he could shoot, he could lead, he could fight. But there was another piece to him that made him a good human being leader of people. And I don't think people out there who haven't served in a high tempo unit understand how important that is. You know, there's a lot of people, a lot of like a lot of opinions on the internet. You know, most of their opinions come from like movies or call of duty or I don't know what the fuck, but it's very important that you actually lead your people. And leading your people isn't just giving commands and yelling at people and being the biggest, strongest fucking guy.
HostWell, they have that whole meme, right? It's like a boss and a leader, and the boss is like yelling at people as they pull something, the leader's like in the front of them, cheering them on to pull it. I mean, there's definitely a difference, man.
Chris McCoyI mean, if if being a ranger just came down being being like a hard badass killer, well then the biggest, strongest guy, well then fucking, you know, a Jadavian clowney and James Harrison would be the best army rangers in the world, right? Or, you know, DK Metcalf, right? But there's a human element of soldiering that is very, very important.
HostWhat was the conversations like? I mean, was there ever a platoon conversation after this whole Tillman thing before like the platoon siren and the lieutenant, you know, or the captain got screwed?
Chris McCoyI mean, yeah, I mean, that's another thing that was you know, I understand why they did this, right? We were told explicitly not to talk about it. And I understand that. That was a that was a necessary thing at the time. I get that, right? Especially to a bunch of young guys that were fucked up by it. I've had long, long conversations afterwards with Will Acre, a very close friend of mine, shot at Govy. The world knows him as Will. I know him as Govy. But the guys we were deeply affected by it, right? And some guys had to deal with that in a different way. Um Stephen Elliott, Govy Aker, Steve Ashpole. You know, people were affected by this terribly. This was the death of our very close friend in a terrible accident.
HostRight?
Chris McCoyIf you're out there listening, I want you to think about someone that you've lost. I want you to think if you happen to know somebody who passed away under tragic circumstances, and how that affected you and how it affected the people around you. And um we were told immediately afterwards not to talk about it. Under no circumstances were we to talk about, especially to the public, right? That was incomprehensible because OPSEC was a lot stronger back. Well, OPSEC is excuse me, I don't want to say it was stronger back then. OPSEC is a very, very forward-prevalent part of serving and soft. But um because of that and because of the nature of his death, we weren't really given the ability to mourn him, you know? Like um when Dale Brem and Ricky Barraza were killed, that was very, very sad, very tragic. But we were able to mourn them in our soldierly way, and it's I it's important to mourn the death of people because that really does help you process that trauma, you know. Dale Brem is somebody that I drank a lot of beer with and I partied a lot with, and I've like, you know, may or may not have blacked out in his pickup truck before, and like I've spent a lot of time partying and hanging out and doing fun stuff with Dale Brem, my good friend Dale Brem. Dale Brem and I were the same rank. We progressed through the ranks, we were in the same leadership positions in the Ranger Regiment, and Dale Brem, he was that cruel guys that I partied with, right? So I spent a lot of time with Dale Brem. Like, dude, I've like barracks shenanigans and going to the bars and hanging out and spent a lot, trained with Dale, worked out with Dale Brem, spent a lot of time with Dale Bram. And um, when he was killed, it was really sad, it was terrible. He was killed by enemy fire in Iraq. But when Dale and Ricky were killed, and it's what's even more sad is Dale and Ricky were best buddies, right? And when they were killed, it was tragic and it was a blow to the company. But we were allowed to mourn their losses, right? We were able to process what happened. We were given the space to like mourn and miss and venerate our ranger friends. But we were never given that opportunity with Pat. Right? So those wounds and that hurt that festered, you know. If you're out there listening and you had a close friend that was taken away from you, died tragically, and you were told to shut the fuck up about it, never talk about it, and also that his death made what was most important to you look bad, that's a lot to deal with. And um, and then on top of it, because of the actions of these fucking people, these snakes, who put together this crazy conspiracy because they don't want their brand or their careers to be hurt. And if you're out there listening and you're one of these GWAT rangers who are waving the flag, fine, and you're mad at me, I don't give a fuck, bro. I really don't. I'm vetted, I'm double scrolled, I'm tabbed, I'm good in the community. And yeah, those guys that did that, maybe they were good rangers at one point, but they made a fucked up decision and it hurt the fucking families of this guy who was killed. And they should have been thinking about their guys and not their careers. Yeah, but it also just, I mean, it also hurt Triple Tune, and they also got rid of some really good leaders. And you know what? Even in some way, I understand that that had to happen. I really do. As much as I love David Ootlaut and Eric Godick, those people are the I, those, those are some of the best people I've ever been around. But I do kind of in a way understand why those changes had to happen afterwards. That's just the machinery of the regiment. I get it. You know what I mean? I'll never be one-fiftieth of the ranger that David Ootlaut was, ever, right? But I do understand why those things happen. And I guarantee you, if if he were here, he won't be here. He'll he'll never do a public appearance. But if he were here, he would probably agree with that. Like, you know, those things had to happen. He's a lot more intelligent, well-spoken, knowledgeable, much better leader, much better ranger than I am, right? But I think on some level he would say, hey, you know, those those kinds of things have to happen. But the wave of bullshit that's propagated afterwards with his death, with these crazy theories about murder and all this other shit. That's I don't even care that people say that to me. You know what I mean? Well, what I care is that Kevin and Marie and Mary have to even hear that shit.
HostWell, one of the big pieces of Pat Tillman's conspiracy theory is that Pat was outspoken and you know was an intellect, and so he really wasn't, dude. Yeah, but people were targeting him because you know he thought different or he didn't agree with the war.
Chris McCoyDude, okay, again, for those of you who've never served in a military, do you know how many different characters there are? Oh my god. It's a TV show, bro. Do you know how many characters are in a military platoon, period, not just an infantry platoon, not a ranger platoon. I mean, you've got anywhere from like flat earthers to like STEM PhDs all living together. This is like a mad, a mad TV cast of characters in every platoon. In every platoon. I mean, there are there are like you're taking a slice of pure unfiltered Americana from people of all different disparate backgrounds who aggregate together and they live together and they're in dire circumstances together.
HostNot only that, a lot of people from the Ranger Regiment, not a lot, but I mean, there's a lot of dudes that come from messed up backgrounds as well. They go there seeking so you have that on top of them just being a wild character.
Chris McCoySo, in my, in my, let's say, let's see, in my machine gun section, my squad, we had uh a guy who had, I believe, a master's degree from Boston College. We had a guy who had been a minor league baseball player, we had a country boy from North Carolina, we had a dude who had uh who was a um moved here from New Zealand when he was like 13. Uh we had a half Mexican dude from Oregon. You know, you had me who was like a fucking adopted mixed-race thug from Baltimore. We had a dude, we had, you want to talk about anti-war, anti-government, leftist, dude. He Pat was nowhere near the worst of that in our platoon. I'm not gonna name him, but we had we had a dude in our platoon who was we had some super far left-wing nuts in our platoon. I'm not gonna name those people, but we had one, we had one who was legit crazy. And we had a Kansas State wrestler in our platoon. We had a guy who had been uh on scholarship to University of Washington. We had a guy in our platoon who had been uh shoutouts to John Tefoya. I hope you hear this, Tefoya. We had a guy in our platoon who had been in the X games uh for snowboarding before this thing happened, and he invented a trick that is now, I guess, like a from what I understand, a trick you can be graded on in uh extreme sports competition. He invented the misty flip rewind. I don't even really know what that is, but I know John Tefoy, I hope you hear this, buddy. He invented the misty flip rewind. So this is like a, you know, there's country guys, there's people from all different backgrounds in this crazy platoon. And Pat was definitely not the most outspoken about the war, not even remotely. He was very intelligent, he was very well spoken, but dude, he was one of us. He was I'm I can't, I don't even want to say the dude's name. But Steve, Steve was like not Elliot. The other there's another Steve in the platoon who was like way left wing, way left wing nut.
HostBut did all that stuff could kind of get thrown to the side because you guys are just a misfit group of people, but but everybody's got a common goal.
Chris McCoyAbsolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we had a we had a guy that left the platoon and he ended becoming a a professional gambler. We had a guy uh in Vegas, like a real-time like W Sop professional gambler. We had a guy that left the platoon and uh opened a pizza shop in Chicago and got fat. We had a guy that left the platoon and like uh a dear friend, you know. Here's a good slice of life. My first roommate, Ben Frank. I hope you hear this, buddy. I love you. Um Ben Frank was like a ginger pale white guy from Minnesota who like baked bread on the weekends, you know, and he liked his Finecraft beer. And I'm like his insane, thugged-out maniac, like hard hard partying, hardwomanizing, graffiti, hip-hop, street crazy man, and they threw us together in the same room. And uh Ben and I just clicked so well together. We were the two most different people in the world. I talked to Ben regularly, he's a long-suffering Cleveland Browns fan. Oh, God bless him. Right, and I'm a Baltimore Ravens fan. So every year, like I gotta calm up and just heckle him ruthlessly. Um, but Ben Frank went on to have a great career in the Rangers. He got out, he went to seminary school, he came back in as a chaplain, served as a chaplain in uh third special forces group. And I mean, Ben Frank and I were the two most opposite people that could possibly have existed. And we didn't coexist, he and I thrived together. You know, he and I spent a lot of time in the mud and blood together in real war. And we're still close to this day. So if you get an infantry platoon, a platoon of fighting men, not just rangers, whatever branch you're in, but a platoon of people whose job is to actively fight, you're gonna get a crazy cast of characters. And your background and the differences between you, those things kind of fall away because you're all united under this banner of shared suffering. That's what soldiering is. That's what soldiering is. Soldiering is the endurance of suffering together in a group. That's all it is.
HostYeah, I think Pete Blabber talked about it. If you guys don't know who Pete Blabber, I think he was a former A-Squadron commander, and I think the Tillman family had reached out to him after the Army had done their investigation and gave him like 3,500 documents. So they the family asked Pete. I'm not sure. He told the story on Sean Ryan, I don't remember, but anyway, he ends up kind of helping the family go through it.
Chris McCoyAnd that's that entire story is available for free on the internet on YouTube right now. It's called the Tillman story. You can you can watch the whole thing. You see all the things that Pete went through. Also, shut up, you'll see me in that documentary. I have a shaved head and less tattoos, but if you watch that documentary, you'll see me. Not that but yeah.
HostAnd that's honestly that's what Pete said. I mean, Pete said that, you know, the platoon got scapegoated. Yeah. Bunch of dudes who should have got smacked around didn't and became generals.
Chris McCoyAnd became generals. And I'm I want to reiterate this. This is not for the viewers, this is for the other rangers who are watching this, the old school rangers out there who are inevitably going to say something behind my back. How dare he mention about these guys? I don't give a fuck what the fuck you say. I'm bulletproof. And I'm not only bulletproof, but I'm vetted in the regiment, and the people that I care most in my life are from regiment and from the unit. And they know those people. And they might have differing opinions of those people, but it's not going to affect my relationship with them. And your opinion out there isn't going to affect my life and my relationship. Those people did something and you know it. You know what they did. That's, you know what I mean? If you're if you're out there and you're part of the 75th Ranger Regiment mafia family, you know what the fuck they did. And if you want to excoriate me and take your feelings out on me, be it, go for it. You know what I mean? But those people did that, but in backroom, they made a decision to conspire to conceal, to obfuscate the death of someone very important and very special. And they did it in a bad way. And the reason that they did it was because they thought career first and not the men, period.
HostBut I also think the aim the army pushed some of that conspiracy as well because, again, the war was new. Now you had this, you know, hero. For sure, they did. And Pat Tillman was a one-of-a-kind. I mean, he he still is. I don't think it's he was the perfect face of the brand. But he also, I mean, he left the NFL, the pinnacle of football, very job.
Chris McCoyHe was the at the time, he was the ideal American, right? He was handsome, good looking, professional athlete, gorgeous young wife. He left the NFL football superstar to come and serve our nation in the call of duty. And then he's killed accidentally in a terrible, terrible accident.
HostAnd the army was worried of what the brand would look like, and and that they were, instead of just facing it, it's like I tell my kids, man, if you do something wrong, don't lie about it. Don't try to cover it up.
Chris McCoyThat's only gonna make it worse, just own it. I've met a million people, an incomprehensible number of people who've messaged me over the years and told me, hey man, I joined the army because of Pat Dillman. So the army wanted to preserve that.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyI mean, I hate to say it, but he was great for marketing. He was. Sure. And his death made the military look bad. It's just a unbelievable confluence of things that happened that led to the death of this wonderful, amazing person that we all knew and loved so much. Yeah.
HostSo let's transition, man. Um, I I know when you were here on the first time, you know, we talked a little bit about your experiences in the regiment overseas, but you know, you're a humble dude. You didn't want to tell anything about yourself. You you talked about some folks that you were with. Um, but this time I wanted to talk a little bit about your experience, and definitely not necessarily so much about war, but there's just you have such a unique ability for narration, and there's some things that you and I talked about preparing for this podcast that just meant you speak in a way that's just very unique. Um winter strike. Uh it was 2003 in Afghanistan. I think it was like the first time that like the army soft had really been operating in large scale, but at like elevation, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not I'm not totally aware of other, but I mean, you guys were fighting in the mountains. And for those of you that don't appreciate, look at, you know, look at Afghanistan, just look at some footage. I mean, the mountains are it's unbelievable. I mean, I've been to Colorado, I'm I'm well traveled around the world, you know, other than maybe like the Swiss Alps or the Dolomites up in uh in Italy. I mean, Afghanistan has some just unbeautiful terrain, very uh, very unforgiving.
Chris McCoyIt's the entrance to the rooftop of the world. I mean, the Hindu Kush is there. You're you're you're moving towards the same mountainous area that eventually becomes the Himalayas.
HostAnd and for the record, I mean, nobody's been able to conquer Afghanistan, I think, since Alexander the Great.
Chris McCoy3,000 years we've been fighting there. 3,000 years, not we, 3,000 years men have been fighting in Afghanistan in on that terrain.
HostWhat was it like to be in the place where the you know Alexander the Great had wintered and and spent time up there? And then to be fighting this enemy, man. I mean, you know, we are the most elite fighting force, most technological, savvy fighting force. Yeah. But, you know, we were fighting guys that can move around the mountain barefoot and sandals, and they they were pretty good at it.
Chris McCoyWell, when I was in Afghanistan, I I did Afghanistan a couple times, and I had the great fortune slash misfortune to be in a very unusual area in Afghanistan that most of the people who served in Afghanistan never got into this area. Um, shout outs to all my Afghan vets who are out there watching. The large majority of fighting in Afghanistan took place in different eras, but this first deployment, we were very, very far high up in northeastern Afghanistan in the most mountainous, rugged terrain that exists, probably on earth, outside of the actual Himalayas. And we were set up there as a very concerted effort by the U.S. military to send a bunch of people into what was known as the Afghani like wintertime hideout. Since the time of Alexander, the Afghan people.
HostYeah, and they call it an Afghan, they call we call it, I mean, we called it even when I was there, the fighting season, right? Because during the winter, the the Moose would go disappear into the mountains, they would winter down, go back to Paca, whatever. And then once the snow started melting, then they would come out, and that's when the fighting started. So this was unique because we were going into their territory.
Chris McCoyCorrect. Well, since the time of Caesar, Caesar writes in uh the the Gallic wars that they would put their soldiers in winter quarters, right? Just like the American army did back in the time of Valley Forge. Um but through the modernization of modern warfare, the practice of winter quarters obviously went away. That went away probably around the time of World War One. But um the Muj have been resting and refitting in winter quarters in the highest, most difficult, elevated parts of Afghanistan for thousands of years, thousands of years, thousands of years they've been doing this. And even with all of our, you know, like Empire Death Star, Star Destroyer technology, it's impossible to get up there. Even with, you know, like we can see up there. We can't physically get up there. It's impossible. So um I said this on the last pod, Jason. Decided that we're going to take a group of extremely physically fit, highly motivated, fanatically prepared men to go up there and chase the mood around in their winter stronghold. And that's what we did for a couple months. And it became kind of a um legendary deployment in the history of the Ranger Regiment. Not because of the kinetic action. There's almost no kinetic action, but because of like the nature of it. I will say this. I've been to war in three or four countries. I may or may not have been shot at in Pakistan, I'm not sure. But I've certainly been shot at in three countries. And um I've been all I've been all over the place. And that part of Afghanistan looks like something otherworldly. It's impossible to describe. I've been in mountains all over the contiguous United States, Alaska. I've been all over the place. I've never seen anything like this. We used to call it Mordor. It looks like Mordor. It looks like the Lord of the Rings. It's hard to put into words because we don't have any frame of reference for this unless, unless you're a very serious alpinist and mountaineer who maybe has been in the dolomites or has been in the Himalayas. I've been um over 13K in Colorado to hunt elk. And that looked nothing like this, you know? Um this is vertical, and it's steep spires of barefaced stone everywhere. I'm not talking above the tree line, I'm talking just the nature of it. I I think your comparison to the dolomites is probably very apt. It this is barefaced frozen stone and snow and ice, as far as you can see, with tiny little pockets of humanity. And there's strangely, I think if there's a water source in somewhere that you can harbor animals in a canyon, a lot of times these people will occupy and they'll they'll live in a tiny little shoebox canyon that's at very high elevation in the mountains. Um, because they're safe and they're protected from the they're not just protected from us, they're protected from the outside world, period. Um they're very excuse me, they're very, very remote and they're very, very isolated. And these people live a lifestyle that is out of time. Um And there's nowhere on earth like it. I I don't think I would ever want to go back, but I'm glad that I I'm glad and I'm a little bit amazed that I witnessed something like that. What were you guys doing up there and and what was that deployment like? In layman's terms, we were walking our asses off. We were walking and walking and walking and walking and walking. We call it infantrymen call it humping. There's a difference between walking and there's a difference between hiking and there's a difference between humping. At some point, when you're an infantryman and you're carrying a large load of weight on your back with all your gear, everything in your world compresses smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until it just becomes one foot in front of the other. What we were doing was we would fly up into an area, we would possess an area, and we would move on foot and infiltrate or move into a known area of enemy resistance, take over that area, SSE it. We found a lot of like weapons stores, you know, like innocent people don't have stores of hundreds of like ChICOM 83mm mortars and RPG heads in their villages. Sorry, right? So we were moving from position to position and we were clearing different box canyons and different um settled areas up there. It was, you know, it was never kinetic, it wasn't kinetic. We did not do anything to any civilians up there, you know. We we possessed and we took, we blew up a lot of munitions. We blew up a lot of big machine guns, too. Um I can remember taking with the platoon a village. We cut we surprised this um this village. We flew into a box canyon, we walked for two days up and over and uh reconnoitred the village. Then the next morning we just boldly walked down to the village, took over the village, and we ended up taking a bunch of um PKM machine guns, piling them up in the in the in the center of town and demoing them with thermite. And then uh there was another village we walked into and they had tons and tons and tons of 12.7 millimeter ammo, which is their version of like anti-aircraft 50 caliber caliber ammo, and those that ammunition comes in big heavy metal boxes. I remember taking that ammo, blowing all that shit up with thermite, and then um another village we went in and they had a huge, a massive store of 83 millimeter mortars. We took those mortars and we um we strapped them to donkeys, and uh we we took the mortars up and we stashed them in a cave that was right outside of the village, and then me and uh six other very fortunate, very happy Rangers spent the night in that ice-covered cave protecting these munitions, and then I think 36 hours later, naval EOD flew out in a nice warm, happy helicopter, landed on a PZ that we set up, came out, wired up all the shit, blew it up, got on the helicopter and flew away. Oh, yeah, by the way, you guys are rangers, you can walk out of here, you'll be good. So, but I saw a lot of amazing things out there. Um, I had a moment out there with David Ootlaut, I'd like to talk about. Yeah. Um, so again, David Ootlaut is somebody I hold in the highest esteem. Um at the time, I was a private, I was a nobody, and he was the platoon leader. And one day we were in a position in which the platoon was split into two groups. Group A and group B. Um group A is up on the side of the mountain, group B is down on the lower side of the mountain. Had to be separated by a significant amount of distance. 700 meters, maybe a K. Two elements. The PL has to go from element one to element two check on them. And um, he needs to take someone with him. He needs to bring a private runner, right? I'm a private, that's the way things go. Hey, you're coming with me. We're going down to one. Cool. We head down, and there's a literal real goat trail that takes us down there, and it's on the side of a mountain that's stunningly vertical. I mean, this is a real goat trail that's been knocked in here over thousands of years of animals walking around this tree. And it's narrow. I mean, it's really narrow. I mean, at some points, I would venture to say it was as narrow as this table, right? This isn't a real trail. This is a path. This is a tiny footpath. And it's I don't, it's not vertical, but it's a very, very steep, long drop off on one side, way down into the canyon below. Maybe a couple thousand feet. Just a long rolling, you know, ellipse-shaped curve that rolls down into the valley. On the other side of the valley, sheer steep rock face. And on our side, damn near vertical, sheer rock face. So we're edging along, and in some areas you have to edge around this like path. And we're walking for a long way. And we come around the corner, and I've never seen this before, and I don't know if my words can do justice to describe it. There had to have it was freezing cold. It's late October in Afghanistan at very high elevation, so it is bitter, bitter, bitter cold and dry. And we are on the north face of the mountain. The reason the clothing company is called the north face is because the north face of a mountain doesn't ever get full sunlight. So it's always colder, it's always more difficult, it's always got more ice, it's always got more snow on it, right? Whereas the south face is always in the sun. So the south face is easier to traverse and navigate, right? Anyway, we're on the north face, so we're in perpetual shade and darkness on this side of the mountain. And we come around, and there must have been a legit big waterfall coming off the mountain and going over the path. And it was so cold and it was so dry that this waterfall had frozen into this. I can see it right now looking in my in my memory, a huge it had to have been 40 to 60 foot high, let's call it 50 foot high, a massive cornice of frozen hard white and blue water coming off the side of this um rock face that was like it looked as though you had taken a snapshot of gushing water and flash frozen in place. Like the mountain god had put it there, right? Colloquially speaking, calm down, internet. And it was incredible looking. And we stopped and it it really looked as though there was a flash photograph of this massive waterfall with like it was big and pillowed out, and there were icicles all over it. It was just huge, and it was it was perfectly white, and then you could see some areas it was like hard blue. And we came around the corner and we stood there looking at this thing, and uh there was enough room on the path to get around it. And Ootlaut stopped, and we we were standing there quiet, and there was this moment of like perfect stillness, no helicopters, no radio, no wind, no nothing. Just two men on the side of this massive, massive mountain. And he stopped and he turned to me and he said, Hey, let's take a little break right here. Yeah, Roger's there, and he goes, And he took his helmet off. And this is you know, we're not in an area that anyone is remotely near us. We've got vertical steep face on one side, long valley on the other side. We're thousands of meters away from anybody. And he took his helmet off and he went like this, and he reached in his pocket and he opened up a MRE pound cake and he broke it and he handed half of it to me. And I can just remember having it, and like you know, he put his helmet back. He just took his helmet off and he wiped his head like this, and he did the MRA thing, he put his helmet back on. And we stood there looking at it, and I remember he said to me, He's like, you know, you and I might not ever see something like this again in our lives. We should really take a look at this thing. And at the time I kind of thought that was a little bit of a weird thing to say, you know, because I'm thinking, Ranger, you know, combat. But we just stood there for probably a minute and really like looked at this thing, and I could see I'm looking at this waterfall thing, and I looked over and I could see he's like looking out over the valley, just taking this moment in. And we just strapped up and then we went back down the trail down at the lower end. And like that's not a hardcore war story, but that's a human moment. And I look back on it like that doesn't sound like much. And maybe if you're out there listening, you think who gives a shit? You guys saw a waterfall and kept moving. But this man had the presence of mind to stop and say something like that to his subordinate, hey man, let's take this in, let's look at this. You and I might not ever see something like this again in our lives. And that little tiny moment, that really had a big effect on me. Because through the arc of my life, I've thought about that. And I when I have seen things that are unusual, or like when I have like good moments in my life, or have little memories, I try and really stop and like absorb those moments and sort of build that book of memories in my life. I think it makes little moments that you have like that more special, more, more important. And I think he was right. And I think that like um that's an intelligent guy. I think your average maybe like a troll commenter would be like, who gives a shit? You just saw something, blah, blah, blah, right? But that's the kind of person who's not gonna stop and like really look at like what's happening in their life and take a moment to observe things and like what's the point of life if you just don't give a shit about anything that's happening.
HostI just see this this bigger like lesson as well, man, right? It's like um, you know, giving gratitude and you know, just enjoying. I think so often in life, we're so focused on the destination that we miss the ride, man. Yeah, and there's a lot of cool things to be had on the ride to see and to experience. And a lot of us for many years, you and I both, um, we we miss some of that. So it's really cool to hear something from way back, right? Because you went through a lot after that.
Chris McCoyI went through a lot after that. Dave went through a lot after that, yeah.
HostYeah, but it's you still have like it's still ingrained. I remember when we were preparing and you told me this story. I was even dumbfounded. I think I sat there for 30 seconds after I absorbed it because I could, you're a vivid speaker. I could, I felt like I was there, and I can see that and I can appreciate that now at my age as well. Because there was things I saw in Afghanistan, not not that it's shared experience, but there's a lot of beautiful moments in a shitty, you know. I I I think I've said this about war too. I I really think it was the best and worst times of our life, right? Like you're watching people die, you're watching death, you're responsible for people's death, but there you're also, I think when you live that close to death, you live a lot more. Life happens a lot quicker. You feel more, experience more, some more than others. Um, but I do remember certain refined moments in my own experiences, yeah. Where you know you just feel, and like that's just one of those those stories where to be clear, Dave was a tough guy.
Chris McCoyDave was a fucking badass. Uh Dave has punched me square in the mouth playing flag football. Uh, Dave was not a punk, Dave was not some softie who was taking in the view. Dave was a bad dude. Put a stamp on it. Dave Ootlaut was a bad dude. Like, but you know, he had the maturity in that moment to do that. And I think that's the first time someone ever like said that around here. But I don't I don't want anyone out there to misconstrue the fact that they think Dave Ootlau was soft. That was a bad dude.
HostI I think taking something in and then enjoying some magnificent morador Lord of the Rings type movie set for 30 seconds on the side of a goat trail doesn't make you soft, man. I just think it you he understood probably at a much younger age than than we did.
Chris McCoyYes, he had a he had a level of maturity and understanding that um I think had escaped me at that age.
HostYou guys had some interesting experiences at altitude. A lot of people got sick. So here's another thing that a lot of people don't realize that altitude and altitude sickness, that's a very real thing.
Chris McCoyYeah.
HostWhat was what was that like having to deal with all that?
Chris McCoySo um in ranger culture, and you know, I think just in blue collar culture, you know, because I, you know, I was blue collar as well too. Um, and maybe to a lot of the people listening out here, you're bred to believe that like being sick is fake. If you're sick, you're a bitch. Uh concussions are fake. If you have a concussion, you're a bitch. Vertigo doesn't exist. I personally did not think vertigo existed, period. Until it happened to me after a concussion. I legitimately thought vertigo was some shit people made up to get out of work. I really thought that. Until it happened to me after a concussion, I was like, what the hell is happening to me? This I was like, nah, bro, this is in my mind. I really when it was happening to me, I thought, like, oh, this is fake, right? Um, but when you're at altitude for a long continuous period of time, um, your body, and you know what? I don't want to get the physiology of this wrong, right? But your body process, your, your physiological processes um change. And um you there's a a mal a wide range of maladies that can happen to you with long-term altitude exposure, you know, not necessarily hypoxia, but all kinds of things, one of them being ketolactic acidosis. And long story short, it's extremely stressful on your body. Like if you're spending weeks at a time above 13,000 foot and you're not from up there, uh, you know, you're we're not Sherpas. We're like, we're like a bunch of young guys from middle America, right? And now all of a sudden you're putting them at 13,000 feet for weeks at a time carrying huge amounts of gear. We were carrying more than rangers carry on combat loads because we were fully self-sustaining. So everybody's got 80 to 100 pounds on them. Um, everyone gets sick. Um everyone had severe flu-like symptoms. I can remember guys, uh, I'm not gonna say his name, but a guy that went on to have a really long ranger career hallucinating and walking out of the PB, having to be corralled by guys and dragged back in. They were like, Where the what are you doing? Where are you going? It's like, oh, there's somebody left a big orange string on the ground. I was following it. Like, what are you talking about? He's like, Yeah, I don't know what happened. He like came to he's like, I thought somebody had a long orange string on the ground. I just got up out of my bag and I started walking to it, right? Or um you'd have guys in the middle of the uh in the CP in the middle of the PB who are just coughing and coughing and coughing and coughing and coughing. Or um, you know, guys were ravaged with dysentery. You know, I'm if you're walking at 16,000 foot and you're carrying a 240 machine gun with all your ammunition and all the shit on your back, and you've got the runs horrifically, it's not, you know, there's no there's no amenity, dude. There's just making do with what you have is tough. It was like uh, you know, it was a couple months of ranger school.
HostYeah, you even talked about uh one night, I guess they shot an artillery round or something.
Chris McCoyYeah. So uh we were in this is this is a good look at the mind state of rangers. Uh we were in, we went up to a fob. I wouldn't even call it a fob. We went up to a big hole that was scratched in the ground. And um a very elite special operations command recon forward reconnaissance unit had gone up there with four guys. Four guys with beards and big optics and halo badges and painted up rifles got in there before us and they set up a little area for us to meet them in, right? And it was like one crumbling falling down building and one you know, another crumbling falling down goat shed. And they were like, This is where you guys live now, right? And we're like, uh, all right, so Rangers, we put our shit down on the ground, we put out security, bring up the vehicles, blah, blah, blah. That's where you live now. At the time, it was called Catamount. Uh, I don't know why it had that designation, but there was some map map designation. It was called Catamount. But later on in the war, Jay Anthony Blessing was killed very near there, and they built it up every time, and it became Fob Blessing. And I'm sure some of the people who are listening here served or have stayed at Fob Blessing. Uh, but when we got there, it was just a scratched-out hole in the ground that was probably about the size of a maybe it was probably the size of a baseball field, with two little crumbling structures in it, and they were like, all right, here you are. And it was in the middle of a big valley, a big box canyon valley. So we're up there, and there's only like 35 of us, including the reconnaissance guys. We're all bedded down, and we were allowed to make a fire, which was a huge, we were allowed to make a fire, which was a huge luxury at the time. A fire, a little tiny, a little teeny tiny campfire. We dug a hole in the ground. We built a little teeny tiny campfire, and we had some, you know, you know, it's far enough away. If you've got a fire that's this big and it's 20 feet away, like it doesn't throw any heat on you, you know what I mean? But it's night, we had a fire. So we're all laying there on, we're in our sleeping bags, we're sleeping in shifts. Uh, it's probably like 10% security. We're so we're all bedded down and like we're laying on our bags, and like you're laying in your sleeping bag in a frozen mountain valley in the middle of the wintertime at elevation in Afghanistan, shivering. You're laying next to your buddy talking, and we're laying there, and some asshole on one side of the valley shot a rocket at us. It was a huge rocket that arced through the air, and it had a like a green and yellow fiery plume behind it. Boom, went directly overhead and hit the mountain valley on their side. Come boom, big explosion, right? And all of a sudden it went, oh, and there was like a small round of applause and a little bit of laughter, and like um, it was like we just had somebody shoot a huge rocket at us, and everyone kind of reacted as like, Oh, that was a cool little firework. Like, rangers are like, we're just I think rangers are just wired differently than other people. There was like a little small smattering of like golf style applause, like this, and then oh, and some laughter. And this was a this was a massive explosion, you know, a couple hundred meters away. Shh, boom, that big base guttural explosion. Then it was like, oh good job, guys. You missed, but hey, yeah, that was all right.
HostThat's hilarious, dude. What was the uh, you know, what was that first deployment? What was it like for you personally? You know, obviously it wasn't as kinetic as I'm I'm sure you you know you're were prepared to be.
Chris McCoyIt was a big adventure. I went on the most ultimate in my mind. This is my at my in my youth in ignorance. I went on the most badass adventure. I could. I was with my ranger buddies. I was a ranger humping in the mountains of Afghanistan, taking over enemy villages, blowing stuff up. You know, I get to I got to use thermite and blow shit up, right? Flying around in Blackhawks, joshing with my bros, getting sick in the mountains, carrying a badass machine gun, seeing all this weird stuff. It was a big adventure. And I thought war was going to be an adventure. Even when Blessing was killed, and I talked about his death in the last pod, it came more into focus to me. But even then, there was like this sort of like almost like John Wayne brainwashed thing in me where I was like, man, that's so sad, but that's the casualties of war. It was like I was saying it, but I didn't mean it, you know? And I knew it, I knew Blessing. He was the first person to put a rifle in my hands. It's like, this is your rifle. Take care of it. How do you want an outfit? And um, I had a warped perspective on what war was because I went on a crazy, a very unusual adventure with my best friends. And no one got hurt. Well, like none of in our immediate circle. You know, blessing was from the company, but in our platoon, no one got hurt, no one got killed. There's very little kinetic action. I went on an amazing adventure. And I would was to find out later that war is not an adventure. You know, war is ugly and it's horrible.
HostOh, it's it's crazy how we romanticize it. And you know, I don't know if that's a culture thing.
Chris McCoyI mean, I romanticized it myself and I was in it until it became real. But I also do it, I think it speaks to man, right?
HostLike uh for many years, it speaks to young men. Young men. Yeah, but I mean, for so many years, right? We had to fight for everything. We had to fight for food, you had to fight for existence, tribal land, whatever, hunting rights. Now, what do we have to fight for, dude? You gotta what fight somebody in line at the fucking grocery store?
Chris McCoyYou know, um Alec Guinness's portrayal of Prince Faisal in the famous movie Lawrence of Arabia. He makes a speech at the end that I think is actually really apt to the way that I saw it as a um young guy. He says, uh, the virtues of war are the virtues of young men, courage and hope. And I think that's very apt. At the time, as a young man, I saw war as like a virtuous, hopeful, courageous thing. And it took more exposure to like the gritty, I hate using that term, but like the horror of it to really understand what it was. But at that time, in that little almost magical deployment, it wasn't magical, you know what I mean? But in that little time in my life, everything was still courageous and hopeful.
HostYeah, and I I think it's something that we've talked about honestly across my entire podcast. You know, I'm definitely not anti-war. Some things need to be solved with violence. Um, but it it is, man. It is the it's the worst things that humans can do to each other. Um, and you know, and it does take a toll, right? We've talked a lot about that on this podcast as well, the toll of war. Although it's necessary. I mean, it's very gruesome, it's very ugly. Um, you know, we we try to honor the folks that that we've lost and uh in the best way we can on this platform.
Chris McCoyUm but yeah, man, I think a lot of people forget that how I I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions about war who've never experienced it. That's a good point. Which is really strange to me because that's like a human condition thing, and like um I don't have kids, so I don't have opinions on parenting. You know? I don't have opinions on how you should feel about your children. That'd be incomprehensible to me. Oh. You know? It would be like you're gonna have to bleep this out, Ole, but like it's a bunch of virgins talking about fucking. I don't understand it. People have very strong opinions on what happens and how it should be done and what you should have done, and da-da-da-da. Like, bro, I I don't like I don't tell pilots what flying is like. You know, it's strange to me. And the the crazy thing is like war is a universal human condition. This has been going on for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Like, since human beings were picking up sticks, they've been fighting. And it's just um it's strange to me that people are so strongly opinionated about war, have never experienced it.
HostIt's like Well, but I think there's an allure of war too. So I think some people who didn't experience it maybe have regrets because they wanted to. Because it's the pinnacle of I don't know, man. Um, I think it's a male condition, right? We're supposed to fight, struggle, survive, and then we don't have a lot of that in our society. Um, you might have to.
Chris McCoyI have a cousin who um was beautiful. She was a Division I um volleyball player, she was an all-American volleyball player. And afterwards, she became a teacher and a mother. She was gorgeous. Kimberly Updike. Kimberly Lee Updike. And um she never drank, she never smoked, she she never engaged in vice at any point in her life, ever. She was blonde, haired, blue-eyed, tall, beautiful, kind, hardworking. And um when she was 41, uh, she had cancer. She had cancer, and she had a very long, brutally painful, debilitating fight with cancer that left her not only unable to speak, but eventually left her disfigured. After many years, she died. And she died painfully. It was terrible. Her children are now under the care of her parents, and like, you know, her family has assimilated. But her death was um tragic and shocking, and it was it was just completely unfair that this person who was so healthy and happy and beautiful and prioritized not only her health but the health of her children. This model mother was killed in this horrible, awful, painful way that took away her physical ability to do things and her beauty. And I had never experienced that before. I never experienced the loss of someone to cancer, right? Well, losing someone to cancer is part of the human condition, right? It affects some people, it doesn't affect everyone. But I can't imagine having not faced that and having strong opinions about what someone should do while they're dying from cancer or how they should deal with the death of a parent from cancer. It's incomprehensible for me to like think that I'm important enough to have an opinion about that. And a lot of people have strong opinions about war, and they've never been there in um it's not I understand that people have an inherent curiosity, and I understand that people are inherently outspoken about things that are emotional, but it's strange to me, and I think I don't know why you would want to have an opinion about it something as gruesome as war. It's just very strange to me.
HostYeah. I want to kind of shift. Um, there was another kind of instrumental person early on kind of in your ranger career. Um John Owens, man, your squad leader.
Chris McCoyYeah.
HostJohn Owens. You have a couple good stories about him, though.
Chris McCoyUm this personal message that I'm about to say right now is for Billy Teeter and Ben Frank. Johnny Owens, man. Command Sergeant Major, Billy Teeter. One of my dearest closest friends. This is for you, buddy. We're talking about John Owens. We're talking about John Owens, man. We're talking about John motherfucking Owens. Um, yeah, I'd like to talk about John Owens. And one of the reasons I'd like to talk about this guy is that someone can exist in two worlds at the same time. And um everyone in their life has had someone come along who's been influential in the way that they think and they develop. You may not have liked them, but I'll say this. I want to preface this by saying I've known a lot of fantastic soldiers, Dave Ootlaut, Kellett Sayer, Billy Teeter, Tom Fuller, Eric Godig. But of every man that I've served with, I think John Owens may be the most perfectly well-rounded, highly skilled soldier I've ever met. This guy might this guy was, he would never admit this, right? I see I talked to him once every decade. I saw him at the reunion, things were fine. I'll never be his close friend, but he's somebody that I acknowledge. I wouldn't say I look up to. I ign I know I I remember him perfectly. I know this guy completely. John Owens was a fantastic, fantastic fighting man. He was the Ranger standard made into a human, and he was a fucking asshole. Right? But he was a good dude. Which is important. He was a good dude, but he was the standard made a human. He was gravity. He didn't have a like or a dislike, he just was. He was a thing where if you handled him wrong, it would hurt you. His opinion of you was the same way that gravity exists, you know? Gravity doesn't have an opinion of you. Gravity just, this just exists, right? That was John Owens. He was the perfect ranger, but he was a dick. Or in my youth, I saw him as a dick, right? But I needed that. I needed a hammer. Right? You're gonna come here and you're in the motherfucking big leagues. This is not a game, this is not a joke. And there's one way, there's the right way, and you're gonna do that way. I'm gonna hurt you. But he wasn't cruel. I've served with men who are cruel, who hurt the careers of people around them. But John wasn't cruel. He was the definition, he was the stand, he was the standard. I think that's one of the greatest lauded things I can say to a man. He was the standard made into a human being. Um and he said something, and I've been in a lot of heavy combat with John. I've spent a lot of time in the mud and blood with John. I've walked a lot of miles with John. With Sergeant Owens, the weasel. Um, so in the Ranger Regiment, we have a little bit of an odd phenomenon. We have our own language for people. Uh, one of the things that we have that's colloquially inside of the Rangers, I don't think they do this outside of the Rangers, but I don't know. But in the Rangers, we have a weapons squad in every platoon. The weapons squad leader, the WSL, is the second most senior NCO in the platoon. He's a guy that's gonna be there for a little while and then eventually he's gonna leave and become a Ranger Platoon sergeant. So this is a very, very serious position. This is the second highest ranking NCO in the platoon. This is a guy that has juice. This is a guy that's tested, right? This is a senior E6 who's about to pin seven. So since he's the weapon squad leader, the WSL, we call him the weasel. And that's not a that is not a diss at all. That is a that is a man who's got some, you know, some strength and some rep in the regiment. So if you're a weasel, if you're out there and you're listening and you're a ranger weasel, shoutouts to you. You're a real one. This dude was a bad dude. And um, he was the weasel, he was hard, uh, he was brutally hard, but there was nothing that he was hard on you about that he wasn't better than you at. He was the most physically fit. He was an unbelievable marksman, an unbelievable marksman who had proven it in combat, taking other people's lives in combat, cool under pressure. I'd never seen this dude tired, never seen this dude flinch, never seen this dude waver for a moment. Um, but he wasn't a bully. He was just, I to me, he was like, if you're out there listening to this and you envision a hard ass Ranger, that's that's John Owens. And he said something to me one time, again, this is a human moment. This isn't a combat moment, this isn't a war porn moment. John's got plenty of war porn moments that I'm not going to go into. But he said something to me one time that like stuck with me really strongly. I had been in the unit maybe a couple weeks. And uh we're in the Pacific Northwest. We're deep, deep, deep in the forest in Washington, and it's pouring, pouring down rain. It's maybe two in the morning. Total blackout, and we are in the old growth forest where there's no canopy, there's no light, there's no moonlight, and it's storming at night, and it's pouring, pouring, pouring down rain, huge fat raindrops. You can't see, you can't hear. All you can hear is the roar of a of a storm late at night in the old growth, ancient forest. I mean, it's been that forest is you know from another time. It's like Endor in uh in uh Star. We used to call it Endor, right? But I'm on a knee, and at the time we had a rule: no wet weather gear. No one likes the rule. No one loves the rule. Everyone hates the rule. And the rule has something to do with like heat management on long movements and uh, you know, not letting your guys get overheated, but really there's a subtext to the rule. And the rule is that if you're gonna come here and be part of this, then if getting wet is something that's gonna get out of your comfort spot, well, then you probably made a big error in fucking coming here, right? That's just a well-known rule within the range of regiment. It doesn't make sense for those of you out there listening who, you know, think it's stupid. It is stupid, but it's part of the culture, right? And if you're from regiment, you know what I'm talking about. No wet weather gear, no snivel, no wet weather gear. Well, it's just part of the culture. So I'm on a knee, it's pouring down rain, it's probably 38, 39 degrees most, and it's pouring and pouring and pouring, and I am shivering, shaking. I'm past being cold, I'm into uncontrollable shaking. I'm chattering, my teeth are chattering, and the more I'm thinking about making it stop, I can't. I can't stop shivering. My hands are numb, nods on, kit, rifle, no wet weather gear. My clothing, my my gear is wet to the point where it's just stuck to my body, and I'm freezing, I'm freezing. Shaking uncontrollably, and my teeth are chattering, and I'm trying to make it stop. And he just materializes in the dark next to me. And he comes over and he takes in the and he says it quiet enough to just I can hear him. You can't hear anything because it's pouring, right? And he leans in and he says, Hey, he's got a big dip in his mouth. It's like, hey. And he says it venomously. What the fuck is wrong with you? Staring at me. And I look up and I'm and I'm shaking. I'm like, Teeth chattering. The the rain, Sergeant, it's it's so cold. I just I can't I can't. He's like, hey, hey, shut up. He goes, I'll never forget this. He goes, and I can see it right now with his face right there, the pouring down rain. He goes, The rain ain't cold, you're cold. The rain don't feel shit. And he stands up and he walks away. That's 11 words off the top of his head, like that. And the first thought I had was like, God, what a dick, right? But again, this is one of these moments it started to slowly dawn on me that like he was right. He was right. The rain ain't cold, you're cold. The rain don't feel shit. And it kind of dawned on me like, man, I have a decision to make. The only way out of here is to go forward. I couldn't even stand up and say, okay, I quit. Where am I gonna go? There's no truck, there's no X-Fill, there's no best western around the corner. You're a ranger on patrol in the fucking forest, and your job is to move forward. And everyone's cold. There is no cold. Cold is you. You're cold. You know what I mean? And I look over, and Eric God's not acting like that. John Owens isn't acting like that. So you got one pathway and it's fucking forward. And if you think it's gonna be easy, you made a major error in coming here, bro. You know? And that stuck with me. And his gravity and the way that he was that stayed with me. And like, you know, you can just decide to be hard. If something's hard, you can just decide to be hard.
HostThat's it. How much do you think that that sentence, those 11 words, still affect you and the way you live your life?
Chris McCoyYou know, that's a tiny moment, and sometimes tiny moments have a big influence in your life. Your life, your whole life is painted by tiny moments, right? There's no grand speech by a pastor or savior or wizard. I don't know, you know. But your whole life is made up of tiny little moments, and over time, you as a person aggregate those little moments, whichever, or you decide which ones are important to you. I think that little tiny moment became important to me because it was at a pivotal time in my life. I'm a brand new guy. And I think the fact that I was freezing cold and being punished and, you know, in this stressful situation, like that, it just had a deep effect on me. And I did carry that forward for many years. And I I, you know, I'm far removed from the lifestyle now, but I think still now, I I there's just like a thing in me, and I think every ranger where you just you can just dig inside and get to that thing that keeps you moving forward. I, you know, and it's not just a ranger thing. I think rangers in general are just men who've proven that publicly over and over again. So we're a little bit more forward with it, but everyone out there has that ability. It doesn't matter if you're like a stay-at-home mom with kids. There's times in your life you just need to dig deep down inside and find that thing and keep going. That's like literally that's being a human being.
HostLove that, dude. Um, John Owens was also with you the first day you got shot at. Yeah, he had something very profound to say that day as well. Will you tell us that story?
Chris McCoyHe did, and like there's a little bit of a funny story behind it.
HostYeah, it's a great story.
Chris McCoySo we're in Afghanistan, and uh we're back at, I think we're in Bagram Airfield, we're at Beth. And uh we get spun up. This guy runs in. Hey, there's a mission. Get your shit on, blah, blah, blah, right? You guys were QRF, right? On this one, I think so. Yeah. The two the two deployments in Afghanistan, I'm gonna be honest, they kind of blend together. Oh, yeah. They blur together. When you're a ranger, you do so many missions. When you're a GWAT Ranger, you do so many missions that they get blurry. But this was definitely Afghanistan, we're definitely in Bagram Airfield, and it was definitely the first time I got shot at. Because if you're out there listening, the first time you get shot at is pretty memorable, right? Yeah. Um, but whether we were on, I believe we were on QRF, right? I remember I'm in the hooch's and I'm playing, I'm playing, I'm playing cards with Taylor Roberts. And we're playing cards and we're in our PTs, and this dude opens the door and goes, Hey, where's the PL? And we go, uh, and he goes, fuck it. And he slams the door and he runs out. And me and Roberts look at each other and we're like, no, dude. Oh shit, it's about to go down, right? So we just get up and we start putting on our gear, right? Minute later, dude runs in, put your shit on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Get ready to go. And you can hear the helicopters starting spinning up. We go out, we muster on the airfield, they give us a quick brief and they say, basically, we're gonna go in. And um the SEALs have gone in and secured a compound and they fucked it up. They went in with like a group of five guys. Turns out there's like 30 pucks on the objective. They're taking fire from everybody, everywhere. So they hit the big red easy button. Like, let's have TF Red come out and save us again, right? So we're on the airfield, birds are spinning up, and I'm nervous. Of course, they they say, hey, there is a ton of fire on the objective. We're gonna go out there, we're gonna land, we're gonna seize the objective, we're gonna reinforce, we're gonna, we're gonna hold this shit down. And I'm nervous. Say to you, the listener, first time, hey, you're about to get shot at right now. Right now, you, the listener, are gonna put on all your gear, you get on and get on this helicopter, you're gonna fly out, you're gonna relieve some Navy SEALs, and oh, by the way, you are going to get shot at. This is the first time this ever happened to me, right? And I'm nervous, and I'm trying, of course, I'm trying not to show it, right? I'm just thinking, oh, I'm gonna operate, I'm locked in, right? But I'm nervous. And John comes up to me, Sarnowens comes up to me, this scary human being, and he gets real close in my face. He goes, Hey, you're gonna get shot at. There's gonna be firing on the ground, right? I'm like, great, I don't need this bullshit right now from you, dude. I get it, you know what I mean? But he's like, Listen, you just do your training, you stay with Steven, you stay on his six and you watch his back, and I'm telling you, everything's gonna be okay. You just do what you've been trained, and everything's gonna be okay. And if you don't know what to do, you find Steven or you find me. Stay with your guy, stay in his pocket, and everything's gonna work out. You got this. And he kind of clapped me a little bit. Like he in that tense moment, he was enough of a human being, he knew that I was scared. I was scared. I was ner well, I wouldn't say I was scared, I was nervous. I was very nervous. I wasn't scared. I've never actually been scared while being shot at. I've been scared, I've been terrified in combat. But being shot at, I wouldn't say I've never been scared, but I wasn't scared in this moment. I just had a lot of nerves and adrenaline going through me. And he knew that, and he could he said the right thing. He said the right thing. He was a fine soldier, he was a fine leader. You stay with your people and you do what you're supposed to do, and everything's gonna be all right. And if you don't know what to do, you find Steven or you find me. And you do what we're doing, and it's all gonna be okay. And we flew in, we're on the birds, we're on a blacked out Chinook. I'm sitting up front near to the cockpit. I can look in the cockpit, see all the panel lights and everything, the digital map and everything. I feel it's banking really hard. We land and flare. It's a long flight. Land and flare, and we all run out of the back. And the OBJ is over here, and we did a small offset, not a huge offset, because we had to get to the OBJ. But we didn't land on the X. Because there's gunfire on the on the ground. You're not gonna land on the X and get the bird shot up, right? So we land on an offset and we ran over. And we ran, we landed. The ramp comes down, everybody comes off, and uh everyone has a huge adrenaline dump, right? Or not an adrenaline dump, but we're we're getting ready, we're gonna get in a gunfight. We all run off, and the squad pulls off, and everyone circles up and takes a knee. And uh everyone takes a knee, everyone's got nods, and we're kind of doing a quick hasty brief. And like almost every guy has his dick out and is taking a piss on the knee. So we're in a circle of seven guys, we're all pissing. And um we get up, bail in, we run into the compound. And there is, there's there's random popcorn gunfire going off in the distance. And um run in there, and uh the first thing I see is a dev crew guy. It's a red, red, red, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, red. He's like, I need you guys to take that. There's like a little castellated, um, I don't know how to describe it, it was a huge compound with huge, thick mud, adobe brick walls. And each corner of this compound had like a little, almost like a I don't know how to describe it, like a castellated corner, like a bunker or a turret on the corner, a set of stairs. He's like, grab that corner, hold down, you know, that sector or whatever. And uh, we went up there. And pre-assault fires had shot up this objective, and I think like a 30 millimeter round had gone through the roof of this castellated corner and had blown up inside the room. And it was strange because the roof was caved in, half the room was burnt, right, and blown up. But the other half of the room was pristine, as though the explosion hadn't even touched the half of the room. We ran up there and we kicked the door in, cleared the room, and we go in there, and the room's really small. It's the size of this carpet, and half the room is burning, smoldering, there's still a little bit of fire in there. The other half of the room is perfectly pristine, and there was a like a nice ornate silver tea set on a little table like this big, with like a tea set with like cups next to it and a pitcher. It was on like a nice prayer rug or like a nice it looked like a kafia or something like that. And we we we went in there and we're looking whoa, there's like this room has been blown up. And uh Ash Pole looked at me and he goes and he ran and he kicked the T-setter, he was like, clear! And like, yeah, I did. We just we just giggled like that. And we set up the gun and like um, you know, the mission went on. And that was my first experience of like having gunfire arcing through the air, hearing popping all over the place. But my first moment of being exposed to gunfire, John Owens, this magnanimous force of nature, he just knew what to say, you know.
HostYears later, he sent you a long message explaining kind of who and who he was and why. What did that match actually say and what did that mean to you?
Chris McCoyYou know, um, and again, this is for Billy and Frank. I know we had a lot of animosity to this guy for many years. This guy was much harder on us than he needed to be. Um, even by Ranger standards, even by Ranger standards, he was a hardo. And he took away a lot of our personal time. He inflicted a lot of punishment on us. Um, I've come to realize later in life, and especially as an NCO, you need a little bit of a lighter hand. You can't be ruthless on your guys 24 hours a day. You just cannot. If you've got young men who are very motivated to do the right thing, you can't be ruthless and smash them 24 hours a day for years. You can't. It discourages them deeply. Right? But to John's credit, he that's the way that he thought he should raise us. And it did have good effect in the end. It made us physically tougher. It made it, it definitely made us mentally tougher, I think. But I do think that it capped our growth. For sure. You can raise men up a certain level by being ruthlessly hard on them, but you can't get them to really excel to the next level if you're just ruthless on them all the time. And I think that's a myopic, one-dimensional way to look at leadership, right? Um, there's probably plenty of listeners out here who come from tough blue-collar backgrounds or tough childhoods or tough fathers, and you think that's the way. There's different ways to lead men. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I come from a ruthlessly hardcore background. You know what I mean? It gets no more hardcore, you know. The trade job you work at, the civil service job that you work at, the blue-collar job you work at, you work with some hardos, bro. The regiment is hardos defined as humans. And if you fuck up in the regiment, you're gonna get your ass kicked. You're not gonna get yelled at. Somebody's gonna have a bunch of dudes jump you and fuck you up straight up. It's like prison, it's like prison rules there, bro. So it's a self-leveling meritocracy, right? But even within that world, there's there can be a myopic view. You can't just crush dudes 24 hours a day. I'm not, you can't light handed guys, you can't like always be rewarding. It's not, it's not sunshine and daydreams over there, bro. But you can't crush people to death all the time because it caps the upper limit of I think of what they're capable of doing. So this guy crushed us ruthlessly for years. He was very, very hard. Even within our world, he was considered a very, very unusually unnecessarily hard man. And um year, I held a lot of animosity to this guy, a lot. And a lot of soldiers held a lot of animosity to this guy over the years, even though he did the right thing all the time. And years later, um, I don't want to put his business out there, but he went through his arc of an adult life and he went through trials and tribulations post-service. And I think he went through a lot of the things that mature all of us as human beings. And he sent me a very, very, really random. I I don't have Facebook anymore. I was fortunate enough at the time I had Facebook. He sent me a very long, sincere, authentic message on Facebook. And I don't want to speak for John. He's not certainly not the kind of guy who's he's certainly not the kind of guy who waxes philosophical on these kinds of things. But in that moment, he expressed a lot of really personal, sincere things. And he said, Hey, I want to let you know, you, I want to let you and Billy know. You and Billy and Fig, Louis Figueroa, Billy Teeter. I want to let you guys, like, I was hard on you guys, and I was harder on you than I had to have been. I shouldn't have been like that to you guys. He's like, the reason I was hard on you is because I knew that you guys could take it. I to this day and even back then, I thought, and I still think you guys were great rangers. And I thought that I had to be hard on you to keep you reined in. And looking back on it, I shouldn't have been like that. You know, and I just want to apologize to you for being excessive when I didn't need to be. And he came to the same realization that I was talking about, you know. And he said, I just want to let you know, man, back then and even today, I think you guys were great rangers. And I'm sorry that I was harder on you. I I shouldn't have done it like that. But I was like that in my youth in ignorance. And I read that, and immediately a decade plus of animosity, this guy melted and evaporated. Because to me, that's a that's an ultimately masculine thing to do. To admit your failures, apologize, be sincere, be honest, have a high degree of integrity, and tell someone, hey man, I made a mistake and I'm owning up to it. And it was what it was, and this is why I did that. And if I could go back, I would do things differently. But in the end of the day, I want you to know that I cared about you guys. And I'm sorry that I did it that way, and I did it because I I didn't know any better. What did that mean to you in that moment when you it meant everything to me, and to this day, it still had a profound effect on me, man. Because especially coming from him, he was such a hard, hard, hard motherfucker. But he's also somebody like you secretly respected as well. I don't secretly respect him, I openly respect him. This guy was a fantastic fighting man. This guy was a fantastic ranger. He was just a hard man, and that was the way that he knew how to do things. And um, he wasn't toxic, he was just that way. And like again, this whole story circles back to the fact that this was a very human moment with one of the most hardened men to ever come out of that regiment. Even that guy um came to this years later. And it's kind of weird because I saw him at the reunion very recently. Was like, hey, what's up, man? Oh, dude, so good to see you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was John Owens again. He was like, Yeah, like his cool, cold demeanor, that's who he is, you know. Like, I got I get it. Like, all right, man. That's like really who you are, you know. Like, it wasn't some buddy, buddy, bro, hug shit. Yeah. That's just John, you know. He's one of the and and you know, like I wanted to be public. That's that's one of the finest fighting men this country's ever produced, you know.
HostYou made an interesting comment to me when we were prepping this this time. I hadn't heard you said it before, but you said that there was a hard line between you were naming people, I don't want to name the names, but there's a hard line between being a good ranger and just a tough person, and being a great ranger and a shitty person. What's the actual difference between being a tough versus being a tough guy? Well, look, the regiment is full of tough guys.
Chris McCoyBasically, you have to be a tough guy just to get there. In order to stay there, you gotta be a real tough guy. In order to thrive there, you have to be a hard MFR. That's uh the average lifespan there is very, very short. It's comparable lifespan-wise to the NFL. You know what I mean? Maybe one out of every couple thousand NFL guys has an 18-year career, right? Most guys are there. I think the average NFL lifespan is 2.8 years, something like that. Average ranger lifespan span is probably about three years. It's a hard life. It wears people down, it breaks people off, the culture is very difficult. You know, you get a guy in the NFL seven, eight years, that's a long NFL career. You get a ranger been there seven, eight years, that's a long ranger career. Yeah. You get a guy who's been in the NFL 10, 11 years, that's a incomprehensibly long ranger career. I mean, uh, that's an incomprehensibly long NFL career.
HostYeah, you look at dudes like Tom Brady, man, and like what it took for him to stay.
Chris McCoyWell, he's one out of thousands and thousands and thousands of guys, right? If you stay in the regiment over 10 years, there's something about you that's very, very different from regular people. So at that level, everyone's tough. But in any serious profession, there's something that separates good guys from great guys. I'm gonna use the NFL analogy again. If you stay in the NFL 10 years, you are physically strong and physically fit. There's no way to do it without being mutant level strong and fit, right? If you're in the Rangers 10 years, you're hard. That is the basic requirement of being there. But the thing that separates guys from being good and great, it's not courage. If you're there that long, you're gonna you're gonna fight. You're gonna fight, and you're gonna have to prove yourself in combat, period. And everyone there who's there long enough goes to war, fights, is hard, physically fit, a great marksman, great at humping, great at applying, great at the implementation of the tactical application of the hard skills to the ground. And to some people that's all that matters. Maybe to some of the listeners who aren't from the regiment think that's all that matters. But there's another level to it. There's another another level to leadership. On one level of leadership, there is be no do. That's the term we use. Be no do. Be the example, know the material, do the right thing, right? And maybe to some people that's all that matters. Maybe to some people, humping the hardest, being the most physically fit, shooting the gun best, maybe that's all that matters. And from the outside, if you've never been there, maybe that's all that matters. Winning the gunfight, successfully executing the raid, blah blah blah. But there's another level to leadership. And that level of leadership is carrying yourself in such a way that makes the men around you want to get better. I can put you on a PT program, I can put you on a shooting program, I can put you on a humping program, rucking, sorry, that's our term. I can put you on these programs where I can set the standards and conditions for you to train that make you physically better. But there's a different level of leadership in which just by your nature, you make men around you want to be better. And that's very, very rare. What do you think those ingredients are to make that person? I think it's actually pretty simple. Men from hard backgrounds get very narrow-minded in their outlook on how it is, right? Gotta be hard. Just be hard. Be hard as fuck all the time. And if anyone deviates from being hard, smash them. And that's that is actually a pretty common, pretty proletarian, pretty lowbrow way to look at it. The ones that are great understand that at the highest levels of soldiering and leadership, there has to be a human application of touch. I can't just punch you in the face all fucking day long, every day, and then expect you to fall in line because when you become a leader, all you're gonna know is how to hurt people. And at some point, you have to understand that you're interacting with humans, whether it be a ranger, whether you be in the trades, whether you be a cop, whether you be wherever, if you're gonna lead, you have to be able to have a leadership quality in you that brings people along and makes them want to do better. Maybe for those of you out there who um went through a difficult scholastic program, you know, like a STEM course or an engineering course, or maybe some of you out there who possibly went through like a hard medical course or like a even like a musician scholarship or something like that. Hopefully, in your journey, you came along somebody who you were like, man, that's the person I want to be like. I'll tell you too, we've we've talked a lot on this podcast about coaches. Yeah, I think a great leader has an element of coaching in them. It's very important. Like you, you can't just be a hammer all the time forever, because the regiment is full of hammers. The NFL is full of hammers, right? What makes someone great at what they do is knowing how to bring people along with them, having the intangible qualities of not just the intangible qualities, but the conscious wherewithal to understand that, like, hey, it's my responsibility now that I'm in a leadership position to uplift the people around me. And you don't uplift people around you by just hammering them all the time for years and years and years and years and years. There's like, that's where you get toxic leadership.
HostDo you think like that whole toxic leadership? I mean, it's it's it's inbred, right? And you know, you you had to we talked on your initial podcast about you know some tough leaders you had. Um, but I also look back at the culture of 275 pre-9-11, and yeah, man, it was a peacetime war, and so that's what a lot of the regiment was known for because it's just you know, it's just constant hazing because you got free time, but I think, you know, did did some of that change later on? I mean, I know you left the regiment early and and not of your own timing, but you know, from the people that you talked that stayed longer or the people that are still in, is the culture still inherently like that? I mean, I know the ranger regiment's always called it.
Chris McCoyThe culture is like that. The hard application of training is different, right? Again, I'd like to use the NFL analogy. And again, I never played in the NFL, right? But outside of Pat, I also have other friends who played in the NFL, right? The culture of the locker room is never going to change, or it's gonna be very similar over the years. However, NFL players today, they have more nutrition, more uh sports science, they have more ways to take care of their bodies, things like that. Well, that's very similar in the Ranger Regiment. The gear is always changing. They're taking much better physical care of the men now, for sure. I would say, from what I've experienced talking to young NCOs, shout out to I'm not gonna say his last name, but you're doing God's work. Man, you're a at 275. You know who I'm talking about right now. I got a buddy who's an NCO at 275. He's gonna go on to do great things, and he's doing great things now. The way that he's leading his men, I think you're like he's an Acho. That's all I'm gonna say. The way that you're doing it right now, I hope you hear this. The way that you're the way that you're leading your men, the way that you care about your people, the way that you're setting the example with your own physical skills and your body and the way that you're living, that's what every young Ranger should strive for. Then the Rangers, the Ranger Regiment needs more men like you. So I hope you hear this, buddy. You know what I mean? The physical hard skills are gonna continue to evolve and get better and better. Rangers now are bigger, stronger, faster, more fit than they were in my day. Just like NFL players or NBA players are bigger, stronger, more fit than they were than they were in the past. But the culture is not gonna change because the thing people need to understand, the the prime directive of the 75th Ranger Regiment, the prime cultural motivator of the 75th Ranger Regiment is war. It's nothing else, it's war. So you have to have hammers. You have to have men who are hard, you have to men, have men who are ready to inflict violence any moment. But that element of human leadership, I don't think it's a rare quality in Ranger Regiment. I think it's a rare quality in men in general. If you're out there listening and you're an electrician or an HVAC guy, you've probably worked with some real assholes who are great electricians. But every now and then some guy comes along and you're like, man, I want to be like that dude. That guy has it right. That guy has his gear squared away. That guy knows the answer to every problem. That dude doesn't freak out when things get hard. I show up and I see him walk in the room and I'm like, hell yeah, we're ready to work today. But sometimes you have another leader who might walk in and he might be the best guy on the job site. You're like, man, that guy's a prick. And it brings you down. And if you're with that guy for years and years and years and years, and you're constantly top of mind about how that dude's bringing your shit down, it just overall makes it harder for you to be locked in at work. It just chips away at your ability because you whatever it's impossible to separate your personal feelings about people from something when you're when you're inculcated and you live in it, right? So um, yeah, there's a lot of toxic leadership out there, but every now and then someone comes along who's great. And that element of greatness doesn't come from shooting the gun. That element of greatness comes from being like an inspiring person. So if you're out there listening, if you're in an office doing business-to-business sales, if you're in the trades, if you're driving a truck, even if you own your business uh you own your own business, everyone is looking at you and judging you, your character. And it's easy to make the right decisions. Easy to give a shit about the people around you. It's not hard.
HostIt is wild to me. Yeah, I I've always thought that. Like, how hard is it to actually, even if it's I had a I had a boss one time, um, and he he he always remembered things about me personally, remembered things about where I was from, knew things about my parents, and he he was a couple levels removed from what I was doing, but I never forgot that. And every time he would, you know, he would see me, he would reference some kind of personal thing in my life, only for a moment. Sometimes in passing, we were like, damn, that that dude cares, you know. So even if it's fake, like even if that dude never really cared about, like to me, especially as a young man, I was like, man, that dude cares.
Chris McCoyI have the great fortune to know and be friends with Mike Hall. Mike Hall's unarguably on paper one of the greatest special operations men this country's ever produced. He's the ISAF Sergeant Major, the SOCOM Sergeant Major, the Regimental Sergeant Major. And even now, with his This dude commands massive respect everywhere we go. He knows everyone in the world, right? Al Buford is the same way. Al Buford is a former unit commander, Army Ranger Hall of Fame. But these men have an intangible quality where they care about the people around them. It's not all flowers and sunshine. We're not, this isn't Mr. Rogers. But these men undeniably care about the well-being of the people that they're entrusted to lead. And I think that a lot of people, especially at the lower levels, they lose sight of that. You know, because when you become a leader, you're not responsible for yourself. You're responsible for the group.
HostI've had to instruct both of my kids implicitly about that. They are extremely physically gifted and they've been put in situations to be team captains or in charge. And I've always had to tell them. Yeah, your son's like a great athlete. He's like, Well, both of the both of the my kids, and actually even my oldest was as well. But my I have twins, boy girl twins, and they're both, you know, just but I've I've constantly had to impress upon them because you, when you're a kid and you, you know, they they tell you you're the team captain, oh well, people gotta do what I say. And I've had to tell them it's quite the opposite. You say nothing, you lead by example. Yeah, you lift everybody up. When you're the team captain on a soccer team or whatever, you know, you now that there's 12 or 15 people, like you have to care about the people you don't even like. Let me just pose a question to your listeners, right?
Chris McCoyWhat does it hurt you to care about your people? You know? Yeah, you have to enforce standards, you have to enforce discipline. Look at John Owens, right? It's easy to care about your people. If you're if you're that invested in your job and learning the skills of your job, well, one of the skills you should be invested in is leading people, being a good leader. You know what I mean? The regiment needs a lot more Danny S's out there, and those people are very hard to come by. And unfortunately, in the military and in the police, some of those guys, some of those qualities get overlooked because I think a lot of people at the higher levels are scrambling to preserve their careers. Yeah, it's it's it's yeah.
HostWe had some funny stories uh in your podcast, prep. It's about to get weird, yeah. Um you have a a strange affinity for Navy SEALs, and affinity I is a term I use loosely. You uh you saw a lot of things in your career, and look, man, we're not SEAL haters on here, but I think you know there are um they live on this in this brand bubble. Boo boy. But you you've had some personal experiences, man. I I know uh especially with there's you know one story where you help find somebody, but what uh where do you think that's all bred from?
Chris McCoyYou know, this all right. So we're about to go into real soft insider type shit here, all right? This is gonna ignite a lot of comments from people who've never been in soft. That's right, though. I've I've had zero Navy SEALs on this podcast on on purpose. A lot of people out there, a lot of the tech bros out there, a lot of the the war fans out there are gonna get buck in the comments about this, right? Again, this is for the bros. This is for other rangers, this is for green berets. This is, I would say, probably for Marines too. Uh, my knowledge about them is is less.
HostEven our AFSOC dudes, bro.
Chris McCoyAFSOC, yes. So if you're from our world, if you're from the fighting man's world, especially during the time of the GWAT, you guys know what I'm saying is the truth. And if you're not, uh there's probably gonna be some hatred in the comments, but that's fine because it's gonna drive engagement, right?
HostAll right.
Chris McCoySo during the GWAT, the SEALs, which we all know about, uh managed to um cultivate quite a reputation. I'm sure if you're out there listening, you're thinking about the Navy SEAL, the Navy SEALs, man. Navy SEALs, most elite dudes in the world, right? The best book club in America. And I'm I will say this they're extraordinarily physically fit, even by our standards. These dudes are unbelievably physically fit. And before you guys all cry, they're great warriors. They're very physically fit, I'll say that. Um, and I don't know how harsh I want to go on this, and people are gonna call me a hater, and I'm gonna get a lot of hate. But every ranger out there is laughing and cheering right now because my level of vitriol to the SEALs is nothing compared to the level of vitriol that a lot of rangers have towards SEALs out there. This isn't an inter-service rivalry thing. Rangers love AFSOC guys. Rangers, Rangers love Marines. Right? Marines and Rangers are a lot alike. I wouldn't say that, but I would. Rangers have an inherent deep respect for fighting Marines, that's for sure. Because we're we're built from the same warlike culture, right? Rangers love AFSOC and Rangers love Greenberg Ace. And of course, we venerate the unit. But Rangers have done a lot of missions with the SEALs in the GWAT, and overall, the shocking percentage of those missions have been cocked up and fucked up, and those dudes have created a lot of mistakes. They've made a lot of poor decisions, and a lot of those decisions have not only led to hardships for the regiment, but to the death of Rangers having to fix their cock-ups. That's a real thing. Um, and from the media, these guys are portrayed as superheroes, right? They're soft guys, they're badasses with the kit and the gear and the guns. But they got great hair, too. At the end of the day, those guys have a different planning methodology. And it's been my experience on this level, and the experience of most ranges at a much higher level, that those dudes do not plan or account for things as well as the regiment or other SOF units do. They've made a lot of mistakes that have been clean have had to be cleaned up by other people because of the way that the the JSOC sphere of uh operations worked during the GWAT was that some of these units would go out and they would execute missions and they would have rangers on standby to come in and fix their foul-ups. And that's something that went on for at least 10 years in the height of the GWAT. The SEALs will plan something, they'll plan it poorly, they'll go and execute it poorly on the ground, and then boop, here's the easy button. Ah, we'll call these guys in and come in and like fix things. That happened over and over and over. It was happening in 2003 and it was happening up to at least 2016. That's 13 years. And um the whole culture of like look, there's no knock. If you're a SEAL out there and you listen to this and you got your trident, kudos to you, man. You earned it just the way that I earned a scroll.
HostI really doubt there's Navy SEALs listening to this.
Chris McCoyBut there's a big mythos out there amongst the public that these guys are supermen. And the fact is that their execution of direct action is very poor. Their track record of execution of direct action is very poor.
HostI definitely know that the unit has not killed a hostage with a grenade on an HRT.
Chris McCoyYeah, killed a hostage on a with a hand grenade on an HRT while the hostage was saying, Hey, I'm in here. In English, hey, I'm in here, I'm in here, come get me. And then throw a grenade in there and kill a woman. Right? I've been on missions where they left sensitive items on the ground, where they left weapons on the ground. I've been on missions where they rigged detonation debt charges that didn't go off. I've been on missions where uh I've been on missions where someone left a CAC card on an objective and we had to fly back and get a CAC card. Right? I've been um on training ranges where I've been on a training range where Kyle Lamb, shout outs to Sergeant Major Kyle Lamb of Viking Tactics, was giving us a pistol course. And what and this guy who shall not be named, who a very close friend of a friend of mine, Clay Othic, former D Delta operator, former uh Gothic serpent Mogadishi Ranger knows this guy. We were on a range. Kyle Lamb is giving us a pistol course. This seal, who happens to be with us, has his pistol. He's got his long hair, he's shown us the pistol, and this dude, he's like, shoots the pistol, bam, bam, bam. He's like, Yeah, he's showing us the pistol. And he takes it like this, and he throws it up in the air and catches it on his other hand. And he shoots it with his other hand. And Kyle Lamb freaked out on this guy. Sergeant Major Kyle Lamb. C Squadron Delta Commander, Kyle Lamb, came up and physically grabbed this dude and threw him off. Get the fuck off my range, get off my range. You're not gonna be doing that bullshit on my range, blah, blah, blah. Like I've seen these guys act in a very like undisciplined, unprofessional way. Not all of them, but my experiences and a lot of rangers have seen this behavior too. I don't know what it's like now. I would venture to say that at some point that that behavior got cleaned up. But through a large majority of the GWAT, these guys were acting in a way that was incongruent with the values of SOF. And their execution on the ground led to a lot of like planning disasters. I will say I've been on a lot of hits with these guys, and I will say they're they're very physically talented. But being physically talented only gets you so far because war is constant entropy. And one of the things that the regiment does well, and the thing that the unit does better than anyone in the world, is they plan contingencies for entropy. Now I can speak to entropy because I've lost good friends in combat and I've been in direct heavy combat. Things go sideways on the ground constantly, you know? That's the whole reason we plan contingencies. If you've ever been in a bad street fight or a bad bar fight where things got out of control, things go crazy, you know? That's and that's just in a fight on the street. You're talking about scores of men and gunfire and you know, all kinds of things like that. But in general, through the GWAT, they proved that there was a lot of issues with their planning contingencies and their ability to execute and their ability to be in possession of sense of items. And it kind of almost became de reguer that they were just, well, we fuck that up, we'll call these guys in and come fix it. It caused a lot of friction between us and that unit. And eventually there was a planning split. That's why we don't work with them. Or we work with them in a very, very curated way. And um I can't speak to their culture because I'm not from their culture. But there were a lot of problems through the GWAP thing.
HostOh, they got some great branding though. I don't know how they've convinced Yeah, their branding's really good.
Chris McCoyI have a theory about that too. And um again, I'm speaking from an insider perspective, so if you disagree with me, argue with a wall. Um the unit, especially, and to a lesser degree the rangers. Our mission is inherently morally repugnant. Our mission is to kill people. We don't build bridges, we don't give medicine to kids, we don't dig wells. Our mission, our driving culture, the reason we exist, is to kill people. And the unit's mission is to rescue hostages and kill an incomprehensible number of people. They do violence and we apply surgical violence to enforce United States policy on the ground. And at its heart, that mission is morally repugnant. A unified, modern, civilized culture of people probably should have figured out at some point how you can enact policy without hurting other people, right? It goes against the Judeo-Christian, the ethical values of humanity together. But since our mission is morally repugnant, it's probably not something that needs to be that the US military and the US government as a whole wants to put out there to people. And outside of Delta Force and the unit and the Rangers, there are other units out there whose mission is even more morally repugnant. Where they use all kinds of conspiratorial, seditious methods by which to enact violence and kill people for the enforcement of United States policy. However, at the core, the mission of the SEALs is a little bit different. The mission of Navsoc is a little bit different. Their mission is a little bit more oriented towards a bigger scale of things, which is reconnaissance. Um EOD has become a big part of that. CBR CBRN has become a big part of that. So they offer they enact a much broader sphere of missions. And I think that um it is actually important to have a group of men which the country can look towards and be like, wow, these guys are the shining example of what an American soldier can be, right? Physical fitness, the the ability to operate in austere conditions, the ability to just like deal with hardship, you know. But I don't I think if the public really knew what some of these units were doing and what the primary directive of some of these units were, it would inherently be ugly. You know, and I that's my theory as to why maybe those guys have more media shine. It's not a hatred thing, it's just like a practicality thing. I mean, you don't, you know, as much love as I have for the unit, some of the most some of the most intro influential uh people in my life are longtime unit members, right? I mentioned Clayothic, I mentioned Al Buford, shout out to Matt Weeks. Like those guys are some of the best human beings I've ever met in my life. And Al Buford and and and Clayothic, they care about the people around them. Matty Weeks cared about the men around him. Matt Weeks is one of the greatest leaders I've ever met. He cared about his people, but ultimately the role of the unit is to inflict violence on people. And that's, you know, at its core, it's a necessary evil.
HostDo you think we have too many layers of special operations forces within the U.S. military? I don't know. Because I look at like, let's take DevGroup or even the SEALs, right? Everything that the SEALs do, other than maybe live on an aircraft around the boats, like we've got Green Brays that do the same thing. So we have dive qualified Green Bray teams. Hell, we've got guys in the, I mean, every PJ goes to dive school. There's all these different things, and we have all these different overlaps. And again, man, I'm not a policymaker. You know what? I don't talk about it.
Chris McCoyI don't think so. No, I don't think it's too stratified. I think you need to build a pipeline of men who are very well versed in a wide variety of skills. And I think it's very important that these different inner service people can work together and they can overlap on missions. I I don't think, I don't think it's in the best interest of the military to have a very myopic view, like you guys do this, you guys do this, you guys do this, right? Like I think like if you look at um look at firefighters, right? Um, there's lots of different roles within fire fire departments, right? You guys got special recovery, underwater stuff, entry guys, things like that. Like I think it's very important that these people cross-pollinate their skills.
HostUh, not only within our military. We're talking about like within just the soft community. We have a plethora of soft units. Like, is it redundant to have Navy SEALs and Green Berets? Like, I always asked, I don't know. Why do Green Berets go to dive school? Because I've never I've met a ton of GBs that were dive trained, dive supervisors. I haven't met very many of them. Actually, did a dive mission.
Chris McCoyWell, at their core, they have different missions, right? Sure. The group had the group's primary directive is FID, right? So um I think each group has a prime directive, and I think those prime directives are pretty well managed. I do think that the soft world that we know today is a very well organized machine. It's been proven through many, many decades. It's the best in the world.
HostAnd I'm not arguing that we should get rid of Green Brays or Navy SEALs or anything. It's just a it's just a question I always think about, you know, because we have a ton, you know, even the Marine Special Operations stood up. And I I do I do agree with you. We do need to have a strong fighting force.
Chris McCoyI think it's correctly self-organized over time. That's what I do. I do believe that. Yeah. And this is not, I'm not knocking on SEALs, right? I'm talking a very about a very just a little bit, bro. A little bit. I'm talking about a very narrow slice of what happened. Their performance in the GWAT, in essence, is not what the general public has perceived of them.
HostYeah, I mean, again, you and I come from a different community. I'm not a ranger. I didn't come from the regiment. I worked with the ranger regiment. I worked um God, I'm gonna get hated on so bad after that. It's all good. But you know, I I do again, man, I I haven't met too many folks that had great experiences. Now, dev group's a little bit different.
Chris McCoyUm Well, let me just let me just say, let me pose a question to you. You've interviewed a lot of rangers and a lot of unit guys. What is the overall opinion of guys in this chair on on the SEALs in dev?
HostWell, I mean, there's a reason why they've never been on the podcast.
Chris McCoyNo, well just say, what is it?
HostUh that no nobody's had a good experience. Yeah. Like, no, yeah. I mean, I we had an an R RC guy in here, you know, that was in working in a tier one capacity in Somalia where two guys from blue like gave their weapons to jundys and walked off the mountain as they were on a, you know what I mean? Like, I I've heard a bunch of those stories. Now look, man, is it second third?
Chris McCoyNow let me ask you this as the viewers, right? What would you think if I told you that some SEALs were on an objective and they knowingly gave their weapons up to a jundy and then left?
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyWould you know what would you think of if someone told you that, right? Well, I think it would that never happen. That was impossible. Right. Or, you know, like, what would you think if I told you that uh some SEALs went on an objective and they didn't prep their demo and built water impulse charges that didn't have water on them and they blew up and damn near killed themselves? Or what would you think if I told you that like you went on a mission and you as a young ranger got spun up to go on a mission to fly out and recover an ID card on a hot objective, you know? And that's not like one incident. That's like that happened over and over and over and over again, probably hundreds of times.
HostBut why do you think that continually was an issue?
Chris McCoyDo you think it's a culture problem or from my very narrow view as a low-level middle manager? Um I think that the same thing that bred a lot of the toxic leadership in the Rangers is also the thing that kept us very tight. Yeah. An extremely high level of like discipline and organization. And I think, I don't know because I'm not from their culture, but I think that those guys have a very or had during the G bot a very limited amount of oversight while they're on, while they're on missions.
HostYeah, and you do have this thing where Navy SEALs, I mean, they can you can be 18 years old and you can become a SEAL and then you're on a SEAL team. But what the difference is in the regiment, you take an 18-year-old kid, you you, you know, he makes it through rasp, he gets in the regiment. It's it's adult daycare. I mean, and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. You have 18-year-old kids, you're gonna give them a gun and put them in very high stress, uh, high, high combat, but there is, to your point, there's this level of extreme discipline.
Chris McCoyExtreme yeah, and so there's guardrails and an extreme enforcement of discipline. It's I mean, you can get booted from regiment for anything.
HostThen you take uh you know, Army Green Braves for a long time, you have to be older, yeah. You gotta be, you know, in the military for a long time, you had to be an E5, and you know, they they did a lot of people.
Chris McCoyBut look at Marsak, those guys are all older, more mature.
HostSame thing with the unit, man. And so I do think, you know, I maybe that that is could be some of the Navy SEAL's culture issues.
Chris McCoyYou see a unit guy that's 27, 28, that's a young unit guy.
HostYeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so there's this level of maturity, and I think, you know, why while Navy SEALs obviously they they have to go through physical stuff, nobody's gonna say they don't, right? Their training's just as tough as as some of the others. I I I just wonder if you know you take some 18, 19-year-old, 21-year-old kid and you you give them this super high level of training. Now they're this this warrior, this physically fit, you know, specimen, um, but that they don't necessarily have the guardrails that I think I think guardrails is a really good term for that.
Chris McCoyAnd it's kind of like uh the pendulum swings, those guardrails are probably applied too heavily in the regiment, right?
HostYeah, and I mean, you know, in my brief time supporting the unit, I'll never I I remember this very vividly, you know. If you watch the movie Blackhawk Down, yeah, there's this difference. But I mean, they they nailed it in that movie, right? The ranger culture, the unit culture, um, you know, perfect. And I remember seeing that when I was deployed in Iraq. We used to call them godfather.
Chris McCoyYeah. You know, like as a young 23-year-old Ranger, you'd work with the unit guys, and we would colloquially call them Godfather.
HostYeah, and you see it, man. Like I remember being on the Bob and Rangers, you know, they're doing just as many hits, they're hitting their own lines of operations, they're going out just as often, different, different targets, but dude, you're still gonna have a high and tight, you know, they're in their uniform every day. Like you, they're still like extremely disciplined soldiers versus, you know, you see the unit dudes, and you know, they have the freedom that comes with being in that unit, long hair. I remember one of the uh one of the squadron sergeant majors, man. I mean, he would wear cutoff multicam shorts and he had a belt, like a rope that he used for a belt on his shorts, and that's I can remember going on a mission uh with unit guys and being in the striker, and there were a few times, a very few times, where I was as a young E5, I was like, Um, because I was in a floater position, I was attached to the squadron, and um I can remember riding in the back of a striker with a guy, and he had um he had cutoff jorts on, and he had chucks on, and he had his blood type written on the toes of his chucks.
Chris McCoyAnd uh I can remember being on a mission with uh Brandon Jackson, he was wearing a basketball jersey, he was wearing a like an Adidas like basketball jersey, like a like a dry fit basketball jersey. He was all jacked. I'm like and there's probably some reason Damn that's cool, yeah.
HostBut there was probably some reason because like that's how those guys are like the unit. Yeah, you want to talk about a group of thinkers. I mean, I mean you spend time around dudes, like, yeah, dude, like you have this idea of what you know a unit member would look like, and you know, it's some Hollywood-looking actor with you know it's super fit and jacked, and and they're all like that. But man, you mean dudes from the unit half the time. If you met them in public, you would never know that that's how they work from. You could mistake that guy for a doctor, a PhD, uh, you know, they're just well, I've served in combat quite a bit with the unit, and I've also trained in the civilian world with the unit.
Chris McCoyI just did a training eval with the unit, um, you know, in a place I won't mention, but um shout out to Sergeant Major Eddie Edmondson, you know, um, he was on our side of the house, the enabler side of the house, but um I was talking to him about one of my close mentors who comes from the unit, and they were familiar with each other. And um you know, my mentor had a long and storied career in the unit, and it's very interesting, but you get guys from the unit and they have ancillary hobbies that are unbelievable. Yeah, bro, like it's it's just as stream as their work job. Right. Like um a really good example is Pat McNamara, right? Um T Mac. Yeah, so T Mac is everyone I I would assume most of the people who watch this know who T Mac is, right? T Mac's very intense. I've I've never met him personally, but one of my mentors served very closely with him for a very long time. Eddie Emmonson served with him for a very long time. And I kind of remember asking Al, like, what's that guy like? Because they see him on social media and he's so wound up, right? They're like, Yeah, that guy's very intense, but that guy's like a nutrition scientist on the side, right? Oh, you see his workout stuff, and it's like stuff that would blow your mind. But this guy brought the new science of nutrition and fitness science to the unit. Like, hey, there's a new way to think about functional fitness for these guys. Another good example is Al Buford, my mentor, uh, you know, Army Ranger Hall of Fame, took over, went over to the unit as a squadron commander. Al Buford got his MBA while he was in the unit, and he told me an interesting story. I think this speaks to the kind of person that's over there. This kind of person's common in the unit, right? He's a unit operator, and Al Buford's from the South. And originally he had a very heavy Southern accent. And he had aspirations to become a successful businessman after the unit, which he did, is a fantastically successful businessman. And he said that along the way, he he learned that um people who speak with a very heavy, inflected accent are subconsciously judged by the people around them uh to be of lower intellect. There's been studies that show this. If you have a very heavy, especially if you have a very strong accent, a very strong regional accent, whatever it be, people are gonna subconsciously judge you of being lower intellect. So while he was in the unit and while he was getting an MBA on the side, he also took language classes and speech classes to kind of wash that accent out. So when he got out, as a businessman, he wouldn't be judged as much. And now it's like he's he you know, he sounds like a like a weather channel meteorologist when you hear him now. You know, he's got perfect diction. And that's just one of like a million stories of these guys. There's guys out there in the unit who are like um classically trained musicians.
HostOh, dude.
Chris McCoyUm, a really good example is Norm Hooten, right? Uh, everyone here is probably familiar with Hoot from um Blackhawk Down. Norm Hooten is whiskey up there. Yeah. Norm Hooten's a doctor. Norm Hooten's a freaking doctor, you know. Like, these are these are guys who like being the unit in the unit is hard enough, right? That's like being a professional athlete. But these guys are so fantastically motivated to excel, they excel in all these sort of like magnanimous, crazy ways.
HostYou know, we got somebody coming on. Um, she was the unit's, I think she was one of the unit psychologists for a while. Um, and they're such a like psychological out like the unit figures it out, dude. They have figured out how to recruit and assess at a probably at a level.
Chris McCoyUm, and maybe I'm impartial, but they want benevolent sociopaths who are of extraordinarily high intellect. Oh, and also like physically fit professional athlete-level fitness guys. So it's it's uh the caliber of person over there is like do you think it it you know, in your experience?
HostI know what you're gonna say, but I'm gonna ask anyway, that that's the correlation and why so many unit members come from the regiment because it's that grounded base of discipline and that physical specimen um that requires the you know the the unit that the unit requires. And I would imagine that not everybody from the regiment makes it because there is a a maturity and a mental gymnastics, not saying the rangers are dumb, but you know, it's just it's not for everybody.
Chris McCoyWell, I think there's certain tiers of excellence, right? And I think for all the great things that the regiment has done, the regiment is a very good breeding ground to find the kind of person that's gonna excel at a higher and higher and higher and higher level. Like I've used this analogy over and over again, but in professional sports, right? If you get if you get someone who's at the highest level in professional sports, they're gonna have excelled at every level that they were at, whether that be minor leagues or college or whatever. It's just you find and call the greatest people through a very rigorous long-term, decades-long vetting process. And um, I think the regiment is the perfect breeding ground to find that tier of excellence, just like special forces and group. Yeah. Um oh, and just to put this to the side, not every unit member comes from soft. No, yeah, that's a great point.
HostA lot of unit members come from the big army mechanics and right.
Chris McCoyFor all of our for all of our soft badassness, I mean, dude, there's brilliant soldiers all across the military. A lot of those guys come from the 82nd. A lot of those guys come from like just normal National Guard units. Because if you're excellent, if you're truly excellent, the unit's gonna find you. If you're a truly gifted athl, like a truly gifted athlete, the big leagues are gonna find you at some point.
HostI've got another guy I think uh that's coming on as well. He was a sport guy, spent most of his career as a sport dude in the unit. Um, and like they do that well, right? Like a lot of people don't realize you know, the unit has obviously the drivers and mechanics, the shooters, but they also have an entire support apparatus that's uh that's within the unit. The BW guys, uh, they're they're frigging cyber guys, like all those dudes are so yeah, that whole organization is full of just top-tier people outside of just the shooters. And a lot of people don't realize how what it takes to put a shooter on a target.
Chris McCoyI mean, they're like they're the Harvard Medicine or the MIT of war. Yeah, that's a great point. They really are. Not that though, you know, like um that doesn't knock anyone else, but those are organizations that breed excellent people, right? No. Um, but that's really what they are. They're the highest pinnacle, you know. If you want to excel in physics, you know, Cambridge and MIT is where those are the most excellent people ended up. What was your experience with the damneck guys? I worked with them as a contractor for quite a while, a couple years. My good buddy, Sergeant Major Tyler Marciano. And um, the damneck guys I worked with were excellent. My experience with Damneck was very much almost totally limited to their EOD, CBRN guys, and they were fantastic. Their level of professionalism, their level of knowledge, their nevel, their level of flexibility, wanting to get good at their jobs, innovation. I think innovation is a huge one. You don't really see as much innovation in the regiment. Real innovation and forward thinking comes from the higher tier, you know, the tier one elements of soft. Not that there isn't innovation, but those those inherent those organizations are inherently skilled because they allow their top people, they entrust their top people to be innovators and innovative thinkers.
HostYeah. Yeah, very interesting. Um you had, you know, speaking of Dev Group and Damnik, you had a a pretty interesting story um on a recovery of uh uh of an HVT. Yeah. We gotta tell that story, man. It's just uh it's a good story.
Chris McCoyAll right. You want me to set the set the scale? Set set the backdrop. All right. So I was put in for a very minor level award. It was one higher and then it got downgraded, but that doesn't matter. By he who by he who shall not be named, bro. Anyway, um so we're in Afghanistan. Rangers are in one area, and dev grew SEAL team six. SEAL Team Six. Dun dun dun SEAL Team Six. Like and subscribe, right? Uh SEAL Team Six goes out and they hit this objective. They know there's an HVT there, a high value target. A Taliban warlord, right? Big time hot show in the Taliban. They've been hunting this guy and they've got all the cool info on him, and they go and they hit this dude's compound, he's not there. All right, cool. Dry hole, we call it. Happens a lot. Happens a lot. A lot, I would say most of the missions in Afghanistan are dry hole, right? So they go and they hit this objective, it's a dry hole. All right, we didn't find anything. Cool. About a week later, they fly out. They hit the no, we know he's there tonight. Boom, they hit the objective, dry hole again, right? All right, cool, it happens. It happens twice in a row, little ways eyebrow, whatever. A little while later, they put together a hasty raid. Humit says he's there right now. Go get this guy. They fly out, boom, dry hole again, three for three, right? Three for three, they've had actionable intel, they've gone and hit this place three times in a row, they've come up bubkus, nothing. So devgrew's like, look, man, either the intel source must be bad or something, but this dude ain't there, right? We know for sure we've hit this place three times, dude ain't there, right? So some ranger commander is like, nah, you know what? How about we take a shot at this thing, right? So they spin us up. We plan this mission out really well, and um it's a huge, I don't want to say a canyon, it's a valley. Big scooped valley like this that's got like acres and acres and acres of uh irrigated rice fields, right? Rice fields are uh muddy, excuse me, deep mud, curated valley full of like um you know irrigated uh rice fields. And in the middle of this valley are two perfect domed hills. We use the term titties, right? It looked like a pair, it looked like a pair of big tits, right? In this valley. I hope that word doesn't get censored. Oh god, no. Right, right.
HostSo it's these two-worth to censor out the 347 fucks.
Chris McCoyI'm trying to not say the new titties, bro. It was this huge valley, irrigated rice fields everywhere, and smack dab in the middle of this valley are these two big mounds that look like tits. And on the top of one is scrubland brush, and on the top of the other is a compound that's got maybe four or five buildings on it. And what six had done is they had flown in, landed at the base of this uh hill, assaulted up the hill, cleared the compound, came up nothing three times in a row. All right. The way that the topography is set, there's nowhere else to land, right? So we fly in, we get spun up, we fly in, check this place out. We land, and instead of assaulting directly up into the compound, what we do is we we kind of button hook and we set up on the opposing hillside.
HostThe other titty.
Chris McCoyThe other titty. We're on the left titty looking at the right titty. So we're set up on this hillside and we set up there and we tuck in for a long time. A long time. I don't know how long it was, several hours. And then we send a couple guys out in like a horn-shaped um, you know, four group of guys, they secure the area, and then the ma main force comes up to them and it all takes the takes the objective. And I'm on a Mark 48 machine gun, um, which is a um a belt-fed 762 machine gun. It's a little bit bigger than a saw. At the time it was like super cool whiz-bang stuff that only Rangers were using. Now it's in a little bit more wide use, but it's a I'm carrying a big belt-fed machine gun. We go in, we clear the compound, and uh the platoon sergeant says, Hey, cleared this area, get up on that rooftop right there. There's uh um stairs leading on the outside of this building. It's a one-story building. Get up on that rooftop, set up the gun, overwatch the PZ, because when we extract, we're gonna have the birds come in. So overwatch the PZ, right? Cool, no problem. Get up on the high ground. I'm coming up this roof. I got the machine gun. Come up on the roof, and there's dead green chem lights on the roof, right? And the roof has a goat pen on top of it. It's very common in Afghanistan that people will take their goats and their livestock, small livestock, not cows, but they'll take goats and they'll herd them up and they'll build goat pens on the roofs of their houses. And these goat pens keep them away from like wild predators and things like that. So I go up on the roof, and there's dead chem lights up there. There's old green chem lights there, where it's somebody gone up on the roof, check the roof out, there's nobody up here, clear to chem, throw it out there, roll out, right? There's a bunch of them up there. So I come up on the roof. Probably at least three of them, right? There was at least three dead chem lights on this roof. So I go up on the roof, I'm creeping up on the roof, and at some point the goat pen had been broken. The little door. I mean, these goat pens are like knee-high. Somebody kicked the goat pen open, and there's there's goats milling around on this roof. There's a bunch of goats milling around the roof of this house, and there's a pile of like trash and debris in the corner. And as I'm coming up the stairs, I'm coming up eye line with the roof, and the roof looks perfectly flat, and there's a pile of trash in the corner. It's not mounded up, it just looks like a pile of papers, maybe just junk, right? Not junk, but like trash. It looks like paper trash. Maybe some like old water bottles, stuff like that. Just a like a small pile of junk in the corner and goats milling all over the place. I come up on the roof, and I don't have my light on, but I'm looking at the roof, and something I I don't know how to describe it. Something about this roof looked off to me. I'm looking at the roof and I'm trying to look around these goats that are milling around. Goats are at my feet, they're milling all over the place. And I'm looking at this pile of trash and it just looks off. I don't know really how to describe it. I wish I had better words to describe. But I just got this feeling like something's not right. I come up and I've got the gun on it, and I go on the radio, and I use our coded language, you know, we use call signs and code words and stuff like that, and I basically say, in our coded language, hey, I need the platoon sergeant leadership to come up here because I got something up here, right? And the reason for you to use coded language is that I don't want to say in English, hey man, there's something weird up here, right? So I use the coded language, I get the coded response, and my platoon sergeant shows up next to me. Being very quiet, and I just signal at this trash. And we kind of stalk over there. Now, my platoon sergeant at the time is a very, very big man. Gotta be 6'3, every bit of 250. And he had been a minor league hockey player from Detroit. So this dude can bang, this dude can fight. A very aggressive, very big, very well-known ranger. Tough guy. Legit tough guy. Super badass dude. Big physical, mean, scary badass dude. Give him the signal and we creep forward on this pile of trash, and we're looking at getting closer and getting closer. And it looks even with the dirt roof of this house. Now, the roofs on these houses don't have shingles on them. They're not like American houses. These are uh essentially mud structures, right? So this is a mud roof. This little goat pen on it, a pile of trash in the corner. I come over, and he he comes over, and we both got our weapons on it, and I put my light on, I go white light, and I kind of shake the light on the little spot. He looks at it, he nods, he puts his weapon behind his back, he goes over, and you know how you see a polar bear smash through the ice to grab like a seal. And this is a big man the size of a polar bear. He puts his sling as weapon, and he just, and he's probably about as far as I am from you. Reaches in the ground, pulls up like this, and he pulls a man up out of the, out of this pile of trash. There had been a man laying on the roof, and what the Afghanis had done, they had done a very they had dug a very, very shallow indentation in this mud roof. They covered it with a piece of like canvas and they threw some trash on top of it to hide the guy. So the the man was essentially laying in a very shallow grave on the roof, and the mud structure had allowed them to dig a very narrow little grave-sized trench on the roof that let this guy lay in there and covered him up with trash. So when they heard an American helicopter land in the valley, they ran up. The guy ran upstairs, he got in his little hole, they covered him up. Hey, we don't know where this guy is, right? So he grabs this guy, yanks him up. I sling weapon, and I was wearing Oakley uh fiber, carbon fiber gloves, and I just cracked this dude right down Main Street. Bam! Smash this dude. I hear his teeth rattle, throw this dude on the ground, tune him up pretty good. Cough him and bag him. Bag him his head, cuff him, flex, cuff him. Pull this dude off the objective, carry this unconscious guy off the objective, take him back. Bird comes in, we X will go home. I didn't think about it. It was just another that's a that's like daily life in a regiment, doing a raid, tuning someone up, capturing somebody, whatever. I mean, this is like something I've done literally hundreds of times, hundreds of times. We come home and um we're back from the deployment. We've been back maybe a couple weeks, and they held uh an award ceremony, which is pretty unusual for us. We have award ceremonies, everyone's in a blue moon. They have a big formation out in the quad.
HostYeah, rangers do not get, they're like the Marines. Rangers and Marines don't get a lot of awards. We do not get awards, right? Period. We just don't if Rangers get awards, it's very, very unusual.
Chris McCoyYeah, Rangers could do some heroic shit and it's an Archon with a V. Yeah. So uh, and and look, there's been a lot of Rangers that got silver stars. There's a lot of Rangers, there's Rangers that got DSCs.
HostBut the reality is, is most of those Rangers that got DSCs and silver stars probably could have got the Medal of Honor if they were in a leg unit.
Chris McCoyI mean, you're expected to do this, right? The the actual application of your job in combat is expected. It's the standard, right? So they have an award ceremony and they're given a couple of little awards out, and then they call my name and I'm like, oh Makula, get up here. And I froze. I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna get yelled at. And I my first thought is I'm gonna get punished for some dumb shit in this award ceremony. Bring them up front, pin me up, I get an archom, right? And um I don't have the physical award anymore in my in my trials and tribulations afterwards. I lost a lot of physical possessions, but the award, the archom actually had the words henchmen on it. I that's the one thing from my military career I wish I still had. I had this RKOM that said um to assist in the capture of known Afghani henchmen, right? Such and such name. But it turned out that he was the HVT. And um, I talked to some guys about this. I'm like, man, why did he get this weird award? And they said basically because us picking that dude and us capturing that dude, especially that dude having been captured by a very young Ranger specialist, was a little bit of Thumb in the eye of navstock. Like, hey, you guys dry hold this guy three times. And here we got a specialist E4, the premier navstock. All right. The premier Navy Steel Team Sticks. Steel Team Sticks.
HostLike and subscribe.
Chris McCoySteel Team Sticks. Bum bum bum. Eagle flag wave. I mean steel team sticks. Dry hold three times on this guy. Look, we've got this young, tatted up, dip spinning Ranger E4 who snatched this dude. So I got my little award for that. That's funny. Yeah, me and a big dude beat up a little dude, and I got an award for it.
HostYou got a very interesting story. So we had another podcast guest, good friend of mine, Greg Coker. Greg was a little bird pilot. Six guns. Six guns don't miss. Six night stalkers don't quit. Yeah. Um, and it was funny. Coker came on the podcast, and then I found out you guys knew each other. And then that's when you told me um that he had saved your, you know, almost saved your life. He didn't almost save my life. He saved my life. So I think it's a it's a it's a cool, I mean it's a cool story. It's a good war story, especially the way you tell it, but it's also like serendipitous for our podcast.
Chris McCoyYeah. Um, I'll give a little bit of the background here. A couple of years ago, I went on a hog hunting trip in Graham, Texas. I went on a helicopter hog hunting trip in Graham, Texas, with a bunch of other rangers, a bunch of other old soft guys. And afterwards, we're having a big barbecue, big cookout, sitting there with a guy talking, and somebody was like, Oh, hey, you know, this guy was Night Stalkers, little bird pilot, blah, blah, blah. Come to find out we were in Ramadi on the same deployment because the name Horrigan was brought up. And I mentioned an incident. I was like, oh man, one of those little bird pilots saved my bacon. And we're talking about it, and he's like, Man, he's like, I was the pilot on that incident. He wrote about it in his book. It's very crazy. Greg Coker spoke about an incident in his book in which he fired on someone with the little bird, and I happened to be the guy on the ground in a small group of three of two other guys where he saved us.
HostI'm gonna merge that audio section onto this. It's gonna be cool because he's got an audible book. I listened to his book, that's how I ended up getting him on the podcast.
Chris McCoyYeah. Hopefully, our recollections of it merge, but uh I, you know, I saw it from my perspective, he saw it from his perspective. This is during Ramadi at the height of the war. It's like what, oh five? Yeah, 05. Oof. So at this time during the war, we're in the most dangerous place in the world. Um, we're in Western Iraq in Ramadi, and every night we're out there banging and clanging with the unit. Two, sometimes three hits a night. On this night, we fly out and we're in a residential neighborhood kind of on the outskirts of Ramadi. Uh, there's a downtown city, large city Ramadi, then there's the surrounding suburbs and the outskirts, and a little bit farther than that, there's plantations of all manners of uh of orchards and plant plantations and things like that. So we're in a small residential neighborhood that's scattered with um ranchers, a little bit like this neighborhood. Um so we go in and we do a hit, and um the unit, Delta, is hitting an objective behind us, and I'm pushed out on a BP, um, a vehicle control point, and it's me, Zeman, and another ranger, our platoon sergeant. And we're posted up in this corner. We're pretty well separated from the main group. And we're looking down a street, and the street terminates in a T intersection. And uh we're pulling security, we're doing our operation, you can hear the unit going to work behind us. And we got little birds flying cover over over top of us. And the little birds are blacked out, they don't have any lights on them, and little birds sound a lot different than 60s or chinooks. They've got kind of like a droning roar to them. When they get down close to you, you can hear them real good. And when they get up, it's harder to hear them. But they've got like a like a buzzing droning roar to them. Whereas the 60s and the chinooks have more of a beating, whopping sound, right? But you know, if you've ever been under Little Birds at Night, they sound very unique. So this particular night, we're out at the BP and we're with Zeman. Rest in peace, Zeman. We had an RTO named Zeman who went by Z-Cleeps! We called him Z Cleeps. He was a good dude. And unfortunately, after the war, Zeman passed away. Uh, so he's no longer with us. But I, you know, I want to be on the record. Zeman, everyone thought very highly of you. And if you're a relative or a loved one of Zeman, um, he's looked back with very fondly by the guys who served him. He was our RTO, he's a good guy. Um a little bit of like a goofy character, a little bit of like a, I wouldn't say a nerd, but a little bit more of a bookish guy. I think if you saw him on the street, you wouldn't think Army Ranger. But he was a very good RTO, he's a very intelligent kid. And um, after the war, he passed away. Um, but he's remembered fondly. So I have this memory with Zeman. So we're out on the BP and um residential neighborhood late at night. We're looking down the street to this T intersection. It's a pretty good ways, it's uh at least 200 meters to this to this T intersection, maybe a little farther. And I see a white, small hatchback car. I want to say it looks the size of a Toyota Corolla, some little car, and it rolls really slowly across the T intersection like this. And then after a few minutes, it rolls back the other way. And it looks just like Boys in the Hood like drive-by, right? Like it's very clear these people are up to no good. There's no reason you should be rolling like that, checking us out. And Zeman comes over the radio, because we're right there. It's me, him, and the other guy. We're in a small little area, this no bigger than the size of this room, and Zeman's like, hey man, heads up. Overheads get an eye on this vehicle down there, and they think something's up. I'm like, alright. The vehicle comes by again, and it stops, and it's just paused. And even at this distance, I can hear the engine revving real hard. They must have really meh really hit the engine. Zeeeman panics, he's like, VBID, get back, get back now, now, go into overdrive, turn, and start to run back. And at the same time, he says that you can hear the vehicle rev and start to come down the street. At the same time, the constant drone of the little birds, I hear one of the little birds engage really and do a dive. This all happened in the space of a couple seconds. But big adrenaline dump, time dilation. I can remember every moment of this. This happened like it was in slow motion. I turn and run. I hear the little bird come down, and the little bird fires a 2.75 inch a 2.75-inch folding fin aerial rocket, comes off the rail. Shh. And a big concussive boom, and at the same time, a sound I've never heard before. It sounds like a gigantic sledgehammer hitting a big piece of steel. It's like a clanging bang sound and a big concussive crunching thump at the same time. It's the sound of a rocket coming off the rail of a little bird. Shh boom, right into the hood of this car. Car blows up, skids, comes off the road, boom, hits into a tree. Um, over there, just like in California, they've got huge palm trees, right? Really, really tall palm trees that have the big frond on top. It's very, very hot and it's very, very dry. Car blows up, hits this tree. We're being pulled off the OBJ, and almost simultaneously the unit has finished their work and they tell us, hey, it's time to boss, go get off the objective. So we collapse down, we meet up with the unit, and the plan was to ex-fill, and instead of ex-filling the way we came in, we were going to ex-fill from another direction that took us through a palm orchard. So it was like a massive orchard of these perfectly planted rows of palm trees. And there's kind of a funky like optical illusion that happens when you walk through palm trees that are planted in an orchard row. Like everyone, I'm sure out there has driven by or been in an orchard at some point, where if you look down one row, you can see perfectly, but if you change your angle, you can't see anything. And that kind of creates a strobing effect when you walk through it. So this car is burning, and at some point, one of the cinders of these burning car went up into this palm tree, and that palm tree caught fire. And there must have been enough of a breeze where it sent the cinders from this palm tree into other palm trees, and now there's a massive conflagration of trees, palm trees burning. Because I guess palm trees are full of palm oil. And they and it's so hot and it's so dry. Um, you know, if your listeners are from California and you've seen these palm trees, you can imagine what a big palm tree on fire, next to lots of other palm trees catching fire, it might look like in the dead black of night. So we're walking out of this orchard, these perfectly planted rows of palm trees, and the sound of infantrymen walking together at night quietly has a really like sort of almost hypnotic ASMR shuffling, clacking, clicking sound of men walking together with all their gear on. And we're walking out of there. There's probably 30, 40 of us walking out of there, you know, creeping out of there in formation. We've got detainees with us. And I look back through the strobing, you know, effect of these trees um passing in and out, and I look up and there's just a massive, massive, massive conflagration of fire, huge fireball. And you can hear them burning. And I stopped and I just remember looking up at these trees and going back to Dave Utlao. I just remember thinking, I'm never gonna see something like this ever again in my life. And I just stopped and I was transfixed, staring at these palm trees. And I rem this D-boy came up and he put his hand on my shoulder, and I think he knew what I was doing. I think maybe he was looking too. And he looked up and he put his hand on his shoulder, and he kind of gently tapped me, he's like, Hey, we gotta go. Said it real calmly, hey, we gotta go. And he was looking up at it too. And we just put there, we just stopped there for a second, just looking at it. He showed me, Hey, we gotta go. Yeah, we're trying to lock back in and we're gone. And I just remember thinking about, man, I'm never gonna see something like that ever again in my life. And the violence of that moment, you know, that rocket killed those men in that car. And those men were coming at us. There was no reason those dudes would rev their engine and rocket down the street at a BP of Rangers in the middle of the night unless they had violent intent on us. And Greg Coker saw those dudes and knew, and in that moment, with his, we're talking one of the best helicopter pilots in the world, right? One of the best helicopter pilots in the world dove his helicopter in, shot a rocket, and blew those dudes up and saved our lives. And years later, we're at the hog hunt, and I'm at a I'm at a barbecue talking to Greg about this incident. And it turns out he was the guy piloting that helicopter. And his skill literally saved our lives because that car could have come down and blown up and destroyed all of us. But he blew the car up, the the charge in it blows up. And it's so crazy because it happened so fast. Boom, boom, boom, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I didn't really have time to process it. Like that close brush that I had with death. I just remember looking back at it and not being overwhelmed at the violence of the moment, but being overwhelmed at the sight of this thing that, you know, very few people, I don't know how many people out there have been in a palm tree orchard at night while they're on fire. Yeah. And that moment is just so burned into my memory. It was like, it was horrible, but it was actually there was some that that aesthetic of looking at that was very beautiful.
HostYeah, the last kind of portion before we move on to like other sections of your life is your very last deployment. Um, you guys were attached to C Squadron. It was one of the most kinetic stretches in the regiment's history. Yeah. Especially the way you taught. Three hits a night, somebody's getting schwacked almost every night. Um what does that tempo do to you, you think?
Chris McCoyUm, it creates an extremely high allostatic load on you. And I just remember the thing that I most vividly remember about it, and I think that a lot of guys will agree with me if you've lived in that particular slice of time, is that it creates sort of a all-encompassing roaring, loud, like tidal wave of just stimulation. Noise and heat and light, pressure, explosion, screaming, adrenaline, it kind of all morphs into a huge giant, loud machine of just noise and stimulation. And it it burns your CNS out completely. I didn't realize at the time because I was still a young guy who wasn't thinking that way, but it it etches itself into your nervous system in a way that's really hard to describe.
HostYeah, before we close out, um, you know, this, this, this part of the life and this part of the podcast really, there are things from over there, Iraq, Afghanistan, your time, and the regiment at war that you'll never talk about. I mean, you and I've talked privately about a few things off camera that just aren't for the camera, and I totally respect that. What does it cost a man to carry those decided stories that no one will ever hear?
Chris McCoyWell, I can only tell you from my personal viewpoint. And look, there's been a lot of operators who've done a lot of things in combat that were more hardcore than me, and I've done some things that are probably more hardcore than other people. Um, but for me personally, I think there were a couple of incidents out there that became kind of mountains in my life, right? They kind of became inescapable mountains that shock you and terrify you, and things that I've done that are morally questionable. And I didn't really know how to process them. I processed them like a young, ignorant guy. And I probably did a lot more damage to myself than you should have done. But like um, when you do an extreme level of violence on somebody, it definitely stays with you unless you've got that sort of like ability to compartmentalize things. But those things always come back to the surface. You can't just do something and then put it away and have it go away forever. It shows up somewhere. But for me personally, um, I handled things really poorly when I got out and I gave a lot of space to those things. And I didn't have the maturity to deal with what I was going through. You know, the death of a close friend, the death of a mentor, the violence that I did on other people, the violence that I saw, the adrenaline dumps from almost being killed more than once. Um those things just create a bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger load on you. And then if you're I think if you're somebody who comes from a really grounded happy place or supportive place, it's easier to deal with them. And if you're somebody who comes from an ungrounded sort of I I guess the term would be an ungrounded place, they're a lot harder to deal with, and I dealt with them poorly. So um they just became this sort of mountain in my life. And then processing essentially trauma over the years sort of became later in my life like a mission that I was like really dedicated towards. Like, how do I how do I deal with this in like a healthy way? How do I get healthy? You know, get your body healthy, get your mind healthy, are two totally different tasks. I envy the guys that were able to come home and compartmentalize and deal with that stuff in a healthy way. Maybe usually from what I've observed, it's usually the guys that had good functioning marriages. Because uh, I think they had kids and they were like, all right, I I've got to deal with this because you know I want my kids to be happy and healthy. But I didn't have any of that. I was just out there thugging. So um I envy the guys who were able to deal with that stuff in a in a healthy way. I personally did not, but I will say the benefit I had from it. A, I learned a lot about the human psyche. And I think that it put me in this place where I realized that I'm part of like an unhappy fraternity of men who've existed for you know many thousands of years. Who um what I've learned over time dealing with trauma from war is very human. This has been going on for thousands of years. And the things that those men were dealing with, all the way back to like, you know, the Greek hopolites and the Roman legionnaires and the you know, the Zulu Impia and the Tokugawa era samurai and stuff, not comparing myself to those guys, but those guys were all dealing with combat trauma as well, and they were dealing with those in a bevy of ways that are shockingly similar over the years. So, on a way, I wouldn't say I'm proud of, but I think I was thrust into, whether I liked it or not, an unhappy fraternity of men. And it made me learn a lot about the human condition and history, I think, in general. Yeah. You wrote a book. It should be out soon. Yeah. Um, I want to preface this by saying, yes, I wrote a book. Oh wow, look, another Ranger vet with tattoos writing a book. This is not that kind of book. I want to be very, very clear. This is not that kind of book. This is not a war porn. This is not a look at me, this is not a no shit, there I was, gunfire everywhere book. This is not that kind of book whatsoever. I wrote a book that's a loose memoir of some of the things that I went through and did, but this book is really an attempt to framework what happens when human beings process trauma. Not just soldiers, but people who've processed trauma in their lives, period. There's a lot of people out there, there's a lot of people in the comments who are going through a lot of shit.
HostAbsolutely.
Chris McCoyAnd my trauma from coming from a crazy childhood, my trauma from being in war, it's still trauma. It's not a contest, you know? If you're out there listening, look, if you're out there listening and you're an adult human, you've been through something, right? And we've all been through varying degrees of trauma. And what's very interesting to me is that over the years, human beings have tried to put words to how they process that in very different ways, but they were all explaining the same thing. So, this book that I wrote it's a connected journey through how human beings have processed trauma through the years. And what I found to be very interesting is that ancient warrior cultures, ancient mythology, the history of the fighting man through history, and modern psychiatric and psychological and psychedelic research have all been striving to answer the same question. And along the way, I learned a lot of very interesting and cool things. So if you read this book, I think you're gonna learn a lot of cool stuff. Um, this book is more like a history lesson. Um, I think a good example is like uh if any of the listeners out there are familiar with Moby Dick, the book that Herman Melville wrote, the book Moby Dick, in essence, is an adventure tale about a ship full of men who go out and they chase a crazy sea monster, right? But Melville himself, having served on a whaling ship, has a lot of interwoven narratives about the everyday life on a ship at sea during the great age of sail and whaling. He writes about the pinnipeds, he writes about you know marine life. And it's kind of this really interesting um history lesson. And I tried to bring that in my book. Like if um, this book is gonna have a lot of lessons about ancient history. It's gonna have a lot of lessons about like what daily life was like in the Greek phalanxes and the Roman Legion, about what uh, you know, American Civil War veterans, what they faced when they came, came came home, Tokagawa era samurai, what they what their daily life was when they came home, the Zulu impination, which I found to be unbelievably interesting. Um And then there's a lot of forays into how human beings processed trauma. You know, I write about Terrence McKenna, um, the famous psychedelic researcher. I wrote about um a lot of the books that have influenced me The Body Keeping the Score, Allostatic Load, things like that. So this is a book about psychology, military. Military history, ancient mythology, and how all of these things in my research are kind of linked to how human beings process trauma.
HostSo Yeah, one of the things that was interesting to learn about you is you're a prolific reader. Um, and you're a very I mean you're stoic almost philosopher of sorts. I I don't know about philosopher, but I I don't know, man. You've had we've had some very interesting conversations in the last year of just you know, the way you process information. It's it's very unique.
Chris McCoyI can confidently say, and this isn't a brag, but I I read more than I read more than anybody. I read every single day. I read before I go to bed, I read through the day. I I probably spend at least I spend a significant part of my downtime and my free time reading. Um, just what's the drive? I think it's very simple. For me, I grew up in a really, you know, we talked about it in the last pod. Excuse me. I grew up in a very, very abusive, neglectful, ugly, horrific childhood. Uh I've been abused every way possible, other than sexually. But a big part of that abuse was neglect. A big part of that abuse was growing up in a household where there was want, um, constantly being hungry. Like I think I said in the last pod, I didn't sleep in a bed with a mattress and a box spring until I was like 19, 20 years old. Um so a big escape for me at a very early age was in books. I lived in a house with hoarders, real hoarders, real hoarders who are like that because they're they're they have mental deficiencies. You know, my mother, my stepmother and stepfather were people who had really severe problems. And they were constantly scheming, constantly coming up with plots and plans. And one of these things was that they were gonna buy shit and then resell, and they never did, and their house was full of trash and junk and filth. But fortunately, one of the unexpected side effects is that is that the house was full of like old moldy books. So from a very early age, it was a it was an escape for me to find these old books and disappear in a corner. And reading gave me a sense of like peace and calm. And um, I'm I don't know if I'm a better reader than anybody else, but reading it, I'm just a prolific reader, and reading gives me a sense of happiness and peace and escape. So I've been I just devour books. Like uh there will probably be bit people out here um watching who follow my Instagram. I'm not promoting my Instagram, I'm not even gonna say who I was, but who I am, but I do book reviews on Instagram all the time. You know, I'll read a book and then I'll kind of do synopsis and summaries of it, take little pictures that are, you know, um that are pertinent to the book and do synopses on the book. Like a good example. Like I just I just read again um Caesar's treatise on the Gallic Wars, right? Like uh this is just an example, but like Julius Caesar, um, before he was this famous politician, he was really like a fantastically talented combat general. And he wrote a synopsis on the history of the Gallic Wars, the wars in Gaul and Germany. And um, you know, I did like, you know, like I'll read a book like that and I'll do synopsis on my Instagram story reel, and you know, I'll do book suggestions for people, you know, like uh I just reading and and and studying, that's just like an intrinsic part of who I am. And I enjoy it. And um, you know, like over the years I've collated a lot of you know, when I was younger, my stepmother called it useless information. But I've just I've just learned a lot about the human condition over the years because I read voraciously and like I like to share that with people. Hopefully, hopefully, my main goal is from this book that you'll read this book and you'll learn something cool. And maybe you'll read this book and you'll read about like uh, you know, the machinations of the Greek phalanx. You'll learn what an enclair was, you know. You'll learn about like the tramp effect of uh displaced Civil War veterans after the war. And maybe that'll interest you and have you go down your little path and learn something.
HostWhat was um what was the drive for you to write this book?
Chris McCoyThere were a couple very specific ones. One, um, I have a ranger buddy, Paul Martinez, who wrote a book about his stories as a ranger sniper. He wrote a book called When the Killer Man Comes. And Martinez and I are very close buddies. We don't hang out as much now because he lives in a different part of the country. He's deeply engaged in his work as a horse trainer and stuff like that. He's very successful now. But he was the first person who said, Man, you got a gift. Like, you're really a super smart dude. And like, um, I've been writing little vignettes on my social media for a long time. For years, I've been writing little vignettes about history lessons and odd things I come across and like things like that. So I write these little write-ups on my Instagram page. And he's like, Man, you're so good at this stuff. You need to write. Really need to write. Like, ah, man, I can't do that. He's like, no, seriously, f writing a war book, just write about the things that you know about. And that kind of put like a little seed in my mind that I could do it. And I, you know, it's not bragging, but I've had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of messages on my social media over the years from all kinds of people, not vet people, just regular people. Like uh, like uh like uh vicious RC, like I know this guy on Instagram who is an RC car builder on the West Coast. He's like, man, I don't read books, but I'll bet you, bro, if you wrote a book, I'd read that shit. He's like, you just write cool stories. Um and then they're almost never, they're never about me. They're just about interesting things that I come along. And um, over the years I just decided I'd put it all together.
HostI got to, I got to read um just bits and pieces as we were prepping. It's of course, man, I would expect nothing from you because I've gotten to know you. I know how you speak, and of course you write like you speak, and it's just very um, I don't know, man. It's it's very colorful, uh, but it's all it's also very thought-intriguing, the way you propose questions and ideas. It's very interesting. I'm I'm really excited for um that book to come to press if we can ever get your editor.
Chris McCoyBy the time this this episode comes out, the book will be out. It's called Unseen Worlds.
HostYeah, so we'll make sure that we we push it the moment it comes available.
Chris McCoyIt's about mythology, military history, psychology, trauma processing, psychedelic research.
HostI I just I got a couple questions, man, that that that sparked me from going through your book. I mean, sure. In that book, you talk about war as the defining culture of the 75th Ranger Regiment. Everything in the system exists to feed combat operations. How is that different day to day from the normal army unit?
Chris McCoyWell, I served in the big army before I went to regiment, and I think the biggest defining thing is that culturally it's a lot different. People on the outside think about the gear, they think about the tattoos and the velcro and the night vision and the helicopters and all that, the cool guns and shit. But it's that those are that's silverware at the dinner table, you know. The culture, the culture is geared in such a way that it finds these unusual men for this unusual job. Because normal people don't go there. That's just how it is. And it's very Spartan-esque over there, man. Um you know, the term Spartan has been thrown around way too much, and the term the goji has been thrown around way too much. I mean, shoot, you go to a fitness place in the local shopping center and they call themselves the agoji, right? But this really is a culture that's designed to funnel everything into one overarching cultural landscape, and that landscape is getting good at fighting. It doesn't matter if you're fighting with drones, it doesn't matter if you're fighting hand to hand, fighting with a rifle, fighting as a group. But it's a culture of men who are tested every day in the art of getting better at violence. And that breeds a very unusual sort of person to come there and an even more unusual kind of person to stay there.
HostThere's a line in the book, the regiment expelled weakness like the body rejecting infection, gone after a single lapse. Did you ever watch someone good get expelled? Absolutely. One mistake? Absolutely. And then why do you think that is? You think it's just the rigorous standards that have to be met?
Chris McCoyYou know, and this is for my ranger brethren out there, this is for other scroll holders out there. You know, it's you've we've all seen it a million times. Some dudes get effed down, they don't deserve it, and some dudes fall through the cracks. But in general, the regiment, like I I I've said this before, is a self-leveling meritocracy. And in such a large machine that's under as much entropy and stress as the regiment is, there are going to be mistakes that are made. We talked about that earlier, right? But I hate to say it, but it kind of has to be that way. Sure. You know, these aren't the regiment and other uh really dedicated combat military units who've existed through history have all been like that. It has to be that way.
HostWell, I think the problem is once you've been the standard, then then what's the standard? Um, and it's hard, right? Like it's we see this in other areas of society. I mean, immigration's a huge topic, right? And I have my own opinions, but it's hard, right? If when you apply immigration to the broad spectrum of like, hey, if you're not here legally, you should be out of here. But then you meet, you know, the dude that's helping you do XYZ around your house, or you know, you you get to know a family because your kids go to school and the kids are here legally, but the parents may not be. And then then there's that human level of, well, what about just this, these people? And and but then you know, that's that's and I don't have an opinion either way. So I'm not I'm just using that as an example.
Chris McCoyI don't want to compare the regiment to immigration policy, but I no, but I'm just using that, you know, as there's a standard, right? Like well, I think about it more um again, and I've used this um term a few times, but I think it's a little bit more like uh almost I don't it's not more like, but the way that I can look at it, at least the way that I can envision it in my mind, it's a little bit like maybe professional sports. Um the professional sports team has a goal that's the like win games and create money, right? Yeah. And along the way, they find the best people, and along the way, some of the best people get thrown to the side that don't need to be. And I think in any large machinery that has a very strict policy, those things are gonna happen. It's very unfortunate, but it's part of the the it's I mean, it's part of the world.
HostYeah, there's a part in the book where you're kind of speaking about war. Um, you said for you the rhythm was intoxicating. When do you think you first realize you kind of have come to need war, not just tolerate it?
Chris McCoyWhen I come to need war, I think young rangers immediately think that you need war. That's our culture. It's very, it's very sort of it's not in alignment with like normal human values, but the values of the regiment are not normal human values. From day one, you were told this is the shining example of what you need to be in order to be like a perfect functioning ranger and man. War, war, war, war, war all the time. That's that is what it is. And it's created some of the greatest individuals in the world. It's also created a lot of like gaps in humanity and stuff like that, but you know.
HostYeah, you close one of your chapters with the seeds of collapse were already sown, the cost was waiting, patient, inevitable. Did any part of you sense the bill was coming due while you were still in and you knew that something was gonna break?
Chris McCoyNo, I don't think so. I think once it happened, it happened to me like a big tidal wave, and I wasn't prepared for it. I think had I had a little bit more maturity, a little bit more of a support system that wasn't inside a regiment, if I, you know, I think I could have been in place to like transition better. But for me, no, I just had blinders on. It was one direction all the time until it wasn't, then it all blew up. That's my personal story, though. Sure.
HostThere's this idea in the book that that every era needs someone inside the line who bore more than their share of weight. The NCO with the heaviest ruck and the you know, the harshest order. Did you become that man and what did it cost you?
Chris McCoyI don't know. I mean, I've had better rangers than me say that yeah, I was a good ranger. You know, like I just we were just on the phone with Sergeant Major William Teeter, right? Of the Special Forces Group, and he's very adamant in telling people I was a great ranger. I I don't think so at all. To me, John Owens was that guy, right? To me, Eric Godick was that guy. To me, Kellett Serre was that guy. I wasn't an nth of those guys, I just did the thing.
HostThe highest Roman compliment in the Roman army. He stood firm. Yeah, you wrote about it. Who in the regiment was was that to you? You've named quite a few people. I mean, I can name them again and again until I'm blue in the face.
Chris McCoyUm, there's a lot of guys. You know, uh a guy, a name that comes to uh mind that I haven't mentioned, John Schaefer. You know, these are names that I'm saying that mean nothing to the viewer, but these are men who intrinsically had a huge impression on me because they stood firm. Um they did the right thing all the time. I never saw them tired, I never saw them busted out, I never saw them scared. You know, they did the right thing all the time under pressure. Dave Kang, Caleb Williamson, Billy Teter. I could name a hundred names like that, you know. But that that's the beauty of the regiment for all its ugliness. There's the beauty in there of these men that are just incredible men.
HostYeah. I mean, you you wrote men endured not because of flag, nation, or ideology, but for the man in the next foxhole. Does that match your own experience of why you held the line as well?
Chris McCoyYes. I I will say this: yes, all the things that I did in combat, for all my fuck-ups and all my mistakes, I did the right thing in combat. I never did the wrong thing in combat. All my guys came home. All the guys that I led, they're home safe. Mikey Reynolds is out there living his life. Louis Figaroa, all the guys that were direct, Mark Denton, all those guys are directly under me. You know, they came home and they're happy and they're healthy. And I never I never made a mistake in combat. I made an incomprehensible number of mistakes in my personal life, but under fire and in combat, I I I'm pretty proud to say that I did the right thing.
HostWell, the one thing I love about you, bros, you own you've owned every mistake. Oh my God. Uh you know, and I've made one or two mistakes in my sure. I mean, but your first podcast, you know, again, man, it takes a huge person to come out here and lay your soul in the hopes that you might help one person. Because initially, man, uh, you know, you I asked you to come on this podcast. You got put in contact and I almost had to talk you into it. Um, and then when I got your story, you know, you were kind of apprehensive. And I I really, I mean, I've pushed a lot of my guests to come on here. Like, we're we're not the hey, look at me podcast. I ask questions. Yeah, I think a lot of viewers don't understand, like, you know, I, you know, there's I have tons of people trying to come on this podcast, but a lot of the people, oh yeah. Yeah, but a lot of the people we bring are people that I I kind of have to coax sometimes because I think their story is that important. Um, and you've never pitched yourself to be anything, but I knew in hearing your story that it would help people, and we saw it last time. Um, and so it's again, man, I think that's that's that's what I love about you personally as a friend, but also your story. You you've never tried to hide from what you did, the mistakes you've made, and you've been openly and brutally honest in the hopes that maybe, and I don't think you say this consciously, but I think it's subconscious. I think you're brutally honest in the hopes that maybe you can help somebody avoid the same pitfalls.
Chris McCoyYeah, I would like to. There have been so many unbelievable men in my life that have helped lift me up out of darkness. I'm gonna say this very, very firmly. I would not be alive and unincarcerated today if it weren't for Marcus Hull. Straight up. Marcus Hull, 375, Panama Ranger, is the reason that I am sitting in this chair and I'm successful today. I've never had a human relationship in my life that's meant more to me. I'm closer to him than any other family member. The book is dedicated to the two people that saved my life. That's my grandmother, Dorothy Updike, who took me in when I was 13, she didn't have to, and Marcus Hall, who did the same. To a lesser degree, there's been another mentor out there, Al Buford, Alan Buford, who these people were just instrumental leaders in my life. And I think Sergeant Major Mike Hall has been a big influence as well, too. Just and you know, just by being himself. These guys were just leaders to me because they proved to me and they showed to me as an example of what you're supposed to be like. And they they did it, they didn't do it with a firm hand, they didn't brutally, they were just honest with me, you know. And um, you know, I was thinking about something while we were talking about combat leadership, and I think the people out there think that um I think the people out there who haven't been in heavy combat might have kind of a warped idea of what a good leader is. And from what I can tell and what I've seen, I think the best combat leaders were guys who stood firm. Who were calm. When the whole world is blowing up outside of them, some guys just have an innate ability to be calm. And I tried to be like that for my guys. And the best guys that I've ever met, the most brave guys, the guys have done the most brave things, the unit guys, rangers, senior NCOs, all this stuff, like guys who were just calm when the whole world was blowing up. And that takes a it takes a lot of discipline and it takes a lot of bravery to do that. I don't think there's any such thing as being brave, there's just being calm.
HostYeah, I've taught some active shooter courses and some other courses in my career, and that's one of the lines I always said when I was on the podium teaching, you know, calm breeds calm. Yeah. And because if you're calm in those crazy environments, you can have others be calm.
Chris McCoyBut if you freak out, especially if you're the leader, but just in general, if you freak out Well, you know, there's a practical and tactical application of that that they used to talk to us about. Um we were very and it's kind of funny because of the harsh language that I use and most rangers use, we were strictly forbidden from cursing or yelling on the radio. That's a big time sin, a big time no-no, a big time screw up in the regiment. You can get in a lot of trouble for that screaming and yelling or cursing on the radio because fear is infectious. If you hear fear and upset and panic in someone's voice, it's just gonna put ink in the well and spread through the group.
HostYeah. There's a line in the book cohesion is chemistry. My survival is your survival. Yeah. But the same glue that makes survival possible can make solitude unbearable. Yes. Is that the hidden injury nobody warns you about? Absolutely.
Chris McCoyOr look, I I just want to be clear to the people who are listening. This is all coming from my aspect.
HostYeah, that's all this is, bro. This is we're not, you're not a doctor. This is two dudes having a conversation on a camera, but I think there's a lot more.
Chris McCoyI'm not some super badass delta operator. No, yeah. I'm not some psychologist. These are all just things that I've noticed, I've seen and observed from my aspect. Yes. Um, when your cohesion and identity is tied to a group, and then that group is taken away, or you're no longer part of that group, the fall can be shocking. And I think that there's a lot of historical examples and a lot of psychological data to prove that people need to be associated with a group. Even if the group might just be like a hobby or something that you're passionate about. Even if your group is like your family unit, but you have an identity that's tied to something. And when that identity is pulled away, the framework and the scaffolding of who you are can fall apart.
HostI talked to Hugh Mills. Hugh Mills um is a Vietnam vet, just came on our podcast recently. Three tours in Vietnam, shot down 16 times. Oh my God. We talked a lot about like, I don't know, man, the Vietnam vet heirs, at least the Vietnam guys that I've had, they didn't suffer uh with mental health that if they did, it was way different. But I really think Oh, they definitely suffered with mental health. Well, I mean, I'm not saying they didn't, but I mean they haven't had the same issues that that our generation has had. One of the reasons that we talked about most recently on the podcast was those guys came home. It wasn't popular to talk about Vietnam. Uh, so they kind of kept it quiet to themselves, but they met often. Like, you know, there's all these Vietnam groups, they've been around for a while. Those guys would meet one, two, three times a year.
Chris McCoySo look, I have a I have a um caveat to that. Any man who goes to war and comes home is gonna suffer the exact same way. They just bore it culturally differently than we do now, right? And and trust me, those guys were suffering just as bad as we were. There's countless stories of like addiction and fuck-ups, and I'm not saying they didn't suffer.
HostMaybe that came off wrong. I mean, I'm not saying that the dudes they saw whole hellacious combat, and of course they were affected. What I'm saying is, you know, I think they maybe have handled it better. I don't know what the word is, but I I I think what I'm getting at is a lot of folks in our generation have have become solid, you know, solitude. They've, you know, they get out, they they get out of the military, and that you know, we we how many times do you hear people? I heard people say it a lot during my career. I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna get the ranch. I don't want to be around people, I don't want to be near people, I just want to be by myself.
Chris McCoyYeah.
HostBut the reality is we we weren't made to be by ourselves. And I think that's why our generation has suffered. And I think the Vietnam vets that got out, they assimilated back in society, but they met up a lot. Um, they're that culture that I mean, you meet Vietnam vets now, they're very tied to that culture. You know, they they're they're they meet the they have these groups, none of them miss it unless you're in the hospital.
Chris McCoyWell, this is a very common theme through history, and this is something I wrote about a lot in the book. Um, through history, this has been a common occurrence. Veterans come home from desperate combat. They're carrying a high level of allostatic load. Their body is keeping the score. And they want to be isolated. They want to be away from people, right? This is I mean, this is very well documented in the Roman legionnaire era, right? Legionnaires came home after their 22 years of service. They're granted a parcel of land. They're given some money. Maybe they've got some earnings through their career. Hey, go farm, you're a citizen, everything's gonna be great. And a lot of those guys congregated in taverns and pubs. A lot of those guys had a lot of those guys, a shocking number of those guys sold their parcels of land and wandered. A lot of those guys fell into severe problems with, you know, we wouldn't call it alcoholism, but you know, they blew their money. They blew their money on they blew their money on vice, you know. This was a huge, huge problem in the Tokugawa era with samurai, the wandering Ronan, the myth of the wandering Ronan that we know now from all the cool movies, right? Well, the Ronin, after they came home, were looked at as like dangerous drunks who congregated in taverns and got into fights and killed people, right? Um, the Civil War tramp era, there was a huge, massive, massive problem with displaced veterans after the Civil War who were out traveling through America because they didn't know how to integrate back into society. This has been going on since professional soldiering has existed. It's just got a different face on it in every era of humanity. Our now, I think the big difference between us and the Vietnam era, at least from my aspect, is that uh social media, the internet has created a sense of community, but it's not an actual sense of community, right? Like there's a big difference between you and I sitting down next to a fireplace and having a couple of drinks and talking than there is from like maybe being in a chat room or a social media group or something like that.
HostThat's why I've insisted on having this podcast in person. It's it's such a different experience. Because even though the internet can connect us, you can still leave you can be in complaint.
Chris McCoyNow, look, there's a lot of good about being connected on the internet for real. That's that's an awesome thing. Like, I'm in a I'm in some pretty insane chat groups, but um, a good example, we took a break on this podcast and I called up somebody to get a phone phone call. And like I called, I mean I picked up the phone twice and called, both those guys picked up immediately, you know? Will Aker, Billy Teeter, like right away. Boop, hey, what's up, man? You know, like you gotta have, you gotta. We've heard this until we're blue in the face, but if you're out there, you gotta talk to somebody. Yeah, yeah, just talk to your bros, man. And you know what? It costs nothing to talk to your bros, and it's nice. It's always good to pick up the phone and talk to your buddy, you know? Oh, I think it's got a bigger effect on you emotionally and mentally than you think it might be. It, you know, we're out there curating our health, we're out there working out, we're out there eating the right things, we're trying to do all these right things, but I think a lot of people overlook the fact, man, like picking up your phone and talking to a friend, that's like just as important. Absolutely.
HostYeah, um, tell us again the name of your book. Unseen Worlds. Yeah, man, it it was a great read. Again, I haven't gotten to read the whole thing. I've been super busy. I we I combed through parts, but like every kind of different part, because I jumped around the book just to see what was in it, and it's just yeah, you're a very unique writer. It's if if you know, if you enjoyed listening to Chris talk, you will really enjoy. Um, Chris just has a a really you have a writing gift. Um, and I've I I don't read near as much as you. Um, and actually it takes me a lot to read because I'm so busy. You are a busy person. I don't have a ton of time. I always laugh because you know, a lot of my podcast guests have had books and they're like, hey, you know, can you read my book? I'm like, dude, there's no way I'm reading your book.
Chris McCoyAnd you know, I'm really I'm actually pretty proud of this book, and I think the book is full of like uh the book's full of cool shit.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyAnd I think if you read this book, you're gonna learn something interesting. There's a lot of warrior history in there, like there's just real human history in there, and I I there's definitely something for everyone. And it's definitely, I think, the kind of book you can pick up and read in pieces. And um, I just think if you're a fan of this podcast, there's gonna be something there that's very interesting too. I totally it's not just the narrative of my ranger bullshit, you know. This is a book. I the real thrust of this is I want this book to be a learning machine. Yeah, um, if you're a fan of John Crack Hour, Krack Hour was very instrumental to me uh about this book, Sebastian Junger. You know, actually Herman Melville was very influential on me and like the writings of a lot of the post-World War I guys, like there's a lot of interesting stuff in here. I'll say this if you read the book, you're gonna learn something cool.
HostYeah, that's awesome. Um, I want to dive into so you spent two seasons um up in the Bering Sea. I did, yeah. We covered it in the in the first podcast very briefly. We talked about kind of what was going on in your life, and then you know how you you started off like cleaning boats in the Seattle Harbor, and then the boat captain you were cleaning for. I guess there was a dude, it was kind of by happenstance, uh, he got a uh spiral fracture in his leg and it opened up a spot. And um and were they taking the boat all the way up and up into the Bering Sea?
Chris McCoyYeah. And the Barring Sea, that's up near Alaska, right? They took it up to southeastern Alaska and the harbors doing like what's known as tending. So that was my first pull. I want to preface this by saying um I found out in this past year that the boat captain, Captain Ron Lloyd, passed away in 2014 in the Gulf of Mexico, and he was saving someone in a boating accident. And subsequently he saved that person, and he unfortunately drowned and was killed in that action. This is very poignant to me because that guy saved me. And this is a man who spent over 30 years as a captain in the Bering Sea, hauling line, and as a Bering Sea crab fisherman. So this isn't a sailor. This man was a mariner, a mariner in the truest sense of the word, a human phenotype. There have been human, there have been all kinds of people that come along and served on boats, but this man was a mariner. He was of the sea. And I think it's really tragic and it's also really beautiful that his life was ended by the sea, I think, reclaiming him. And the sea reclaimed him in a final act of sacrifice, which I think is the most glorious way that I it's awful that he died. I really wish he was back in Mexico celebrating his retirement. But the way that he passed away was incre I it wasn't incredible, it was tragic, but that man was a mariner of the most old and ancient and truest form, and he gave his life saving someone at sea, and the sea reclaimed him.
HostYeah, it's kind of funny. We cut a couple shorts that went absolutely viral. One's still going, it's got 12 or 13 million views, and you know, people in that community, um, the fishermen, if you will, got a little butthard, which is crazy because you have a like a very unique affinity for people that do that type of work.
Chris McCoyYou Yeah, I someone uh I think not to give it space to the comments, but I think somebody in one of your comments said that I was very well known up there. Like, I'm uh dude, I was a nobody. I want to make this clear to the listeners. There's people who've been up there for 10, 15, 20 years. Dude, I did two seasons up there and a season as a tender. So I technically did three seasons working up there. I was a nobody. I was a deck hand, and then I made all the way up to number three man, right? I'm just a guy that served up there and I did the thing, and I served with someone who was again, I've been a nobody through my career. I just happened to be near people who were great. It's like um, I didn't make history, but I was certainly there when history was being made. And I had the very great fortune to serve on a ship with somebody who had a really strong and powerful legacy up there.
HostYeah, I kind of want to walk through some of that because we didn't get to spend a lot of time in that. We were that was on the backside of the podcast, and you know, we had already filmed a banger, but we have a little bit of time. I kind of want you to walk me through um, you know, the day that Bronco grabs you and you know brings you into the, you know, on the ship to talk to you about, you know, coming on to work full-time. What was that like? Um, and did you know what you were getting into?
Chris McCoyWell, um, for the editor Odie and for you and for the listeners out there, I think we're probably gonna recap stuff that we talked about in the first podcast, but I guess that's okay, right? So if we do touch on stuff, the last podcast was very, very definitive, and we went over seven hours. And it's gonna be impossible for us to talk about things that don't overlap with the last podcast, right? So some of this stuff, if you're um if you're super sharp and you point out, oh, they talked about that in the last podcast, yeah, we did, right? But we're just two men having a conversation, and um to reiterate on that point, I was working on the boat in Dry Dock, and uh I went up there with a job service. I was totally broke looking for a job, and I went to like a daywork facility. And I did a bunch of weird things with the daywork facility. I think at one point I worked at a car wash. I left the car wash, they sent me with a fence post digging company. Uh, there was another job I remember. I was like breaking open bags of cement, I was mixing cement by hand for a little while. And then uh one day they were like, all right, you're going down to PFI to work on this boat, scaling boats. I was working on a crew guys doing grunt work on these boats and dry dock. And at the time, at the time, no longer, I spoke really good gringo Spanish, right? I had a Mexican girlfriend, kind of spoke Spanglish in the house, and I just spoke pretty decent like Spanish. And um, at the time, the boat captain and the crew, Bronco and uh, and Mark and those guys, they would kind of give orders for the guys to work on the boat, and like I was just super hard worker, you know, fantastically motivated, I was in shape, still really young. And I think the boat captain just noticed that. And he knew that he knew that I was a he, you know, Ron was very, very patriotic. Um and he had this sort of really warm, fatherly energy. And I think he just saw something in me, and they thought, man, this guy's gonna be a good fit on the boat. And then before the boat ripped out to go up to do what's known as tending, to work in the salmon bays up there, during the salmon run, um, one of the men on the boat, whose name I never knew, he was in a motorcycle accident, he spiral fractured his leg, so he couldn't be on the boat. So they pulled me into the um, they pulled me into the um bridge of the ship one day and they were like, hey, how would you like to go up to Alaska and work for us tending salmon? It's a pretty easy gig. You just gotta throw line. We know you can handle line, we know you can handle yourself on the boat. How would you like to come up with this? And uh this isn't the Bering Sea. We're just gonna work as a pull on a tending ship. You know, it's sort of like a um sort of like a nurse boat for the small salmon ships that go up there. And uh, a lot of guys when they get their start, they do that tending salmon. So I immediately said yes. I was dead broke. And I was ready and I went up there on my first pull, uh, tending salmon in the in the uh not in the Bering Sea, but in the the bays of southeastern Alaska in the summertime. What what did that job entail? A lot of throwing rope, a lot of throwing line, hauling line, um, doing the basic deckhand stuff of landing the boat, living on the boat, working the hydraulics, you know, other small 30, or I think they're 28 or 32 foot, these small salmon boats would come in with their salmon bycatch. They'd link up to our boat. We're in a big 128-foot ship. We'd take their bycatch in with cranes, put it on our boat in our big freezers, and then we offer we uh we had a small sundry store where we sold like, you know, eggs and cheese and bread and snacks and things like that, and cokes and water and stuff. So we'd sell that to the guys on the boat, and they would on the salmon boats and they would go out and do their thing. And it was just uh all day working in flip-flops, running a crane, throwing line, tying up, bringing the boat back, tying back up, working the crane, dropping off by catch. Were you living on the boat? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was that experience like initially? Well, you know, I was uh very well suited for it because I was used to working in austere conditions and confined spaces with rough men, which is exactly what it's like being on a boat. Uh there's no HR department up there, and uh it's very uh, you know, it's a very masculine environment. And I don't know if that environment really exists as much anymore. Uh, but in small pockets out there in the world, it's just you and four dudes on a boat out in the middle of nowhere, pulling line and hauling line. So, like there's definitely a social aspect of it. You gotta be a tough guy, you gotta be a hard worker, but you gotta get along with the people that you work with. You can't be you can't be an island until yourself or they're gonna kick you off the boat.
HostYou said you were Captain Ron's dog, that if he'd have told you to put your head through the wall, you'd have done it. Yeah. Where did that kind of loyalty come from that fast?
Chris McCoyWell, you know what's funny? You and I had this talk in the truck on the way over here, and I I recently took a like a very comprehensive, like 100 question personality test. And I scored uh unbelievably high in linguistics, loyalty, and hostility. Um, but there's something in me that makes me extraordinarily loyal to the people that show me love. Like, um, I think I'm just one of those people, like, and I'm not perfect like all of your viewers, you know. The people who leave comments, you guys are perfect. I'm not perfect like the commenters who leave comments here.
HostThey're bot farms, broke.
Chris McCoyI really wish that I was as perfect as the people who leave comments on here, but I'm not. But I'm just the kind of person I'm unbelievably loyal to, loyal to the people that show me love. And I definitely have like a curated sense of hostility to the people that don't. And I think that comes from growing up in a really fractured, horrific household where when people are kind to me, I just show them everything. I give them everything that I can. And um this guy took a big chance on me. He didn't know me from Adam. He just I mean, he knew me a little bit from working on the boat, but this guy took a big chance on me.
HostAnd the pay was decent, and you were at the time, man. I mean, we don't need to relive your story, but you were down on your luck.
Chris McCoyLook, when you're dead broke, when you're dead broke, normal pay looks like, you know, I had king's riches, right? Nowadays, there's no way I would do that. I'm in a position now where I'm I'm very financially stable. I'm doing very, very well in my life. Just for the record, I'm not getting paid to do this podcast. I'm doing this because it's my bro. Um but at the time that was my first opportunity to come back with a little chunk of money. And to me, that was I mean, it it might as well have been a million dollars, right? You know, it was a couple thousand, but I came home and was like, oh my god, this is real money. And um it was a first little stable footing that I had in this sort of chaotic life, which is ironic because stable footing that came from being at sea, right?
HostYeah. At the end of salmon season, you know, they sit you down and tell you the truth, the whole thing had been a tryout. They could have run salmon without you. How did that land with you?
Chris McCoyIt ratcheted up the loyalty thing to an incomprehensible degree. Um, I had unknowingly proven myself to these guys in a really tough, austere condition. And and I had proven to myself them to myself, I had proven myself to them in a situation where I didn't need to. And they, again, they put they decided, hey, we're gonna push our chips in on the table on you. We're gonna take a risk on you because we think you're you we think you're the right guy. And it was the first time outside a regiment, tough men had trusted me in a tough condition, and I was gonna put everything I had into like proving that they were they made the right decision.
HostYeah, I I think the words you told me they said is you know, Ron asked you, how would you feel about coming up and and crabbing with us this winter the winter this winter? The real deal. What did the real Yeah, what did the real deal mean to you then versus what it turned out to mean to you later on in life?
Chris McCoyWell, the way that I look at it later on in life versus the way that I looked at it then are two two completely different things. At the time, I didn't really think about what it was gonna be. I just knew that there was another task in front of me, and I was gonna chase it as hard as I humanly could to do the right thing. And looking back on it, it was a pivotal moment in my life. I don't think Ron realized, even to his dying day, the effect that he had on me as a man. Um but this is a guy who just saw me and he saw something in me and he had the conscious mind to say, hey, you know what? I'm gonna take a risk on this guy. The same way that Marcus Hall said that. Hey, I'm gonna take a risk on this guy. I think there's something there. I think I think there's something there with this guy. And these men trusted me. And I just knew there was never gonna be a situation where I was gonna I was gonna belie their trust. I would have rather died than than make those dudes look bad. You know what I mean? Today I say today, I would rather I would rather go to Russian prison than have Marcus Hall say to me, Hey buddy, you disappointed me. You know? I would rather jump into a volcano than how have Alan Buford say, Hey man, you let me down. That'll never that that's just the thought of letting someone down who trusts me is incomprehensible. I I I just couldn't do it. I will sacrifice everything I have to repay the trust that certain people have put in me. And that was, I think that was the first time outside of regiment I'd been in that situation. And I also think the fact that I cocked it up and screwed up so bad at the end of my regimental career, I think I really had something in me motivated, like, hey, I need to do the right thing. You know, I need to repay these debts to people who've who've trusted in me.
HostYeah, you also had some leadership cut your throat. And so I think there was that too. It's so to find, you know, somebody leadership, right? Because Ron was in charge of the boat.
Chris McCoyThat yeah, a real leader, a boat captain. I mean, that's real authority. That's real government authority. That's not that's implied and it's tacit authority.
HostYeah. Describe so for a lot of people, like you were crab fishing, but a lot of people was like, Oh, you know, if you haven't watched a season of the deadliest catch, I'd highly suggest it. One, it's it's entertaining, but two, it not only is it inherently dangerous, um, it's it's hard work, dude. I mean, you you alluded to that in the first podcast. I mean, you're a guy that came from one of the toughest places in you know the military. Um, and you even compared like fishing to be way harder than that. Um, speak to that a little bit.
Chris McCoyThe physical labor of being on a crabbing boat is unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Um for all the people out there listening, for the bot farms, for the angry boomers on Facebook. I mean, those guys are it's changed significantly since I was there. And I said this in the last podcast. The rules have changed every time. They were losing a lot of guys, a lot of guys were getting injured, and a lot of guys were getting killed. So the government stepped in and changed a lot of the rules of derby fishing. And I spoke about this in the last pod, but the physical act of the job itself is incomprehensibly difficult. Physically difficult. You're hauling line, 600 feet of line at a time, you're grabbing and landing, swinging heavy pots, there's steel machinery on the deck, you're in the elements, the rain, it's snowing, it's fiercely storming all the time, and you're on a boat that's up and down, plunging in the water all the time. A lot of times, like just an act of filling a bait bag, you know? Like you get a bait bag that's probably uh like a two-foot sphere, shoving it, baiting it, tying it, throwing into the pot, climbing into the pot, tying it in the pot, hitting the dogs, throwing the bags up on top, you know, a set of bags and rope all together when it's second. Well, that's probably 50 pounds. So, like, all right, cool. I'm picking up and I'm I'm power cleaning 50 pounds over my head. All right, anybody can do that once or twice. Do that 700 times a day, day after day after day. Well, it's not 700. Do that 130 times a day, day after day after day after day after day, on top of all the other physical action you got to do. Like, it's just an unbelievable wear on your body. I don't, I honestly don't know for to this day, I don't know how guys do that for decades in a row. I really don't. There's some sort of monster motivation in those guys. Like, there's people out here working who are probably working in the trades. And like you see old framers, you see old masons, you'll see old bricklayers, those dudes' bodies are wrecked, right? Because a good example is guys who do flooring, right? Roofers, drywall guys, those dudes' bodies are wrecked. And this is that kind of work, right? Now they work in much shorter compressed periods of time and then they have time off to rest. It's an unbelievably physically hard job. I just don't know how people, I really like me and you know, Army Ranger, all this other nonsense, but like I don't know how they do it for decades on. They're special people.
HostThe people that you met out there were most of them like come from that as a familial business, or I mean what I don't know about most of them.
Chris McCoyMany of them come from familial businesses. They're born into it and it just becomes part of what they do. I think like um, I'm not sure, but I think people who are like ranchers probably are like that. A lot of people who are in like um, you know, like, you know, hopefully some of the listeners out there can comment on this. I would think, I'm not positive, but like if you grow up on a big horse ranch or big cattle ranch, my guess would be that not all, but a lot of people are just born into that lifestyle. So that's their norm, right? You know, like that's that's a hard lifestyle, right? Uh, I think it's probably different from the trades because most people who end up in the trades, because I worked in the trades as well when I was younger, most people end up in the trades, get there because they go there. But I third, I think certain professionals. You're it's definitely a familiar thing. There's a lot of Norwegians and um Nordic people. You know, there's Norwegians and Swedes up there who are born into that, and you know, their culture and their lifestyle you know is like a very sort of easy step into that. But a lot of people are familiar business, yes.
HostThe boat we were on was called the Pacific Mariner. The F V Pacific Mariner. F V Pacific Mariner. Describe that, man. Walk us through the listeners, what it's like to be on that boat, the deck, the wheelhouse, the breezeway, the bunks down below. I mean, for people who've never been on a boat, maybe even seen one.
Chris McCoyUm well, I hope that some of the listeners out there are at least familiar with the deadliest catcher. You've seen some sort of lore or videos out there about these fishing boats. But the best way to describe it is a uh it's a big metal piece of machinery, right? You're obviously on a ship, it's 128-foot. Um, there's cab forward and then there's cab rearward boats, right? So some of the boats, the cab is in the back of the boat and the deck is in the front of them. And some boats, the the cab is in the front and the deck is behind them. I was on what's known as a cab forward 124 Marco. Marco was the boat maker. And at some point in the history of this boat, they had literally sawed the boat in half and then extended it a few feet so they could add another freezer or refrigerator in there. So I was on a 128-foot cab forward Marco, and it's a big, giant piece of floating steel that's covered in machinery. You've got a very, very small deck. I would say the living quarters are about the size of this podcast room. I don't know how much the cameras get, but from the viewers at home, you can see this space between us. It's about this square is your living area. You've got a small kitchen, a small galley. Everything's cramped. There's huge, huge walk-in pantries and freezers full of food and sundries for the men. And then you go up a very small, tight, compacted stairwell into a second floor that's got, which is essentially the bridge. It's got like the sonar, the radar, the radio, the wheelhouse. There's no big steering wheel on boats anymore. It's it's kind of funny. These boats are ran by like a little small, it's like a joystick, like a flat joystick that's about this big, and a big couple of radar screens and and uh locating screens and things like that. And there's just a constant roar of machinery on the boat, the screws of the boat, the hydros of the hydraulic systems on the boat, and there's just the constant, the sea has a loud, non-stop ambient roar, non-stop. It's like kind of like I think it's kind of like being on the flight line where jet engines are. It's just unbelievably loud all the time. Um, so it's super kinetic, but there's something when you're not in stormy weather, which is uh unfortunately that's a big part of the job, but when you're not in stormy weather, there's something sort of like calming about the nonstop white noise of the boat. The noise there's a constant nonstop droning white noise, clacking and clanging of metal, and it's constantly moving all the time. And that's where you get the term your sea legs from. Eventually, you just get used to like moving around like that. It's kind of weird when you've been on the boat for a couple months and then you come back to to land, your sense of balance is off. Um you get so used to constantly moving. I'm sure there's uh people listening who've been in the Navy on small craft. When you come back and you get on dry land after being at sea for a while, your sense of balance is like way off. And I know that um being seasick is a real phenomenon. I again, we going back to like the vertigo, concussions, getting sick. I thought all that was nonsense, right? But um, the first time I went to sleep on the boat, I woke up and we were in real pitching seas, and I got violently, violently ill. Um, because your eyes just can't focus. Your eyes can't focus on anything. Your eyes are moving up and down all the time. So they tell you to focus on something that's far away and try and orient your head towards it. And I got violently sick, and uh all the other guys on the boat were, you know, I'm the green horn, they're making fun of me. Like this happens to everybody. Even some of those old grizzled veterans, the first time they go back up after a few months off, they'll get sick. But I got violently ill and I ran to go outside on the deck and throw up, and Bronco grabbed me. He was like, do not go on the deck. He's like, Don't go on the deck, throw up in the breezeway. And I just remember crawling out to the breezeway and retching and throwing up and retching and retching and retching and retching. He was like, Are you all right? And I was like, No, I'm like, I'm messed up. I'm bad. I don't know, what am I gonna do? He's like, hang with it, and your first cycle of sleep, your brain will adjust a little bit, and then by your second cycle of sleep, you'll be fine. And he was dead right. Um, I made it through the day, very violently sick, went to sleep, and when I woke up, the symptoms were a lot better. I could focus a little bit more. I was still kind of ill, a little less sick the next day, and by the next cycle of sleep, I don't know how it works, but your brain adjusts to the constant movement, and now you're just sort of like gyroscopically focusing your head on the distance, and then by the end of it, you're fine. But like it's a big adjustment. You're gonna I don't, you know, I think unless you've been on a small boat, and I'm not talking about you, hey, I went on a boat out into the bay, I went on my buddy's fishing boat for a little while. I didn't get sick. Well, no shit, dude. I'm talking about you go out and you're in 20 foot seas, you're even in 10 foot seas for days on end. Um, it messes with your equilibrium and and and your brain and your eyes. And and the Bering Sea is it's it's a rough place. Yeah, this is not cold and violent. Yeah, it's you're not this is not being on your buddy's boat in the bay or like, oh, I was in a sailboat and we were in a storm and I didn't get sick. Yeah, bro. Like be in that storm for like weeks at a time. Yeah.
HostWhen they're um when you're setting up the crab pots, how do they I don't understand then the show never covered it, but are you just setting them in one big circle or a big line and then you just go up?
Chris McCoyThey're called strings, right? Um, so a crab pot for the listeners, uh for the people who haven't seen the show, a crab pot is like a it's it's a big square metal box that's got netting all over it. And I want to say if you they're built flat, sort of like pancakes, and we store them like pancakes, but if you were to flip one up on its side, it's um it's square in this direction and it's like narrow and rectangular in this position. I would say that it's probably about seven to eight foot square. And then if you turn it on its side, it's about two to three foot rectangular. And one side of it has a doorway on it where the whole doorway opens like this, and it's netting all inside, and it's got like hangers inside. It's got big metal, like uh carabiner style hangers. So you fill up bait bags that are about two foot, you fill them up with oh, excuse me, you fill them up with shredded cod and bycatch bait, and you hang the bait inside of the box, you shut the door, dog the door with a latch, and then the pot has a huge roll of line. We used 60 fathoms. I can't remember, I honestly listeners out there, I don't know what 60 fathoms converts to, but it's several hundred feet of line. At the end of that line, it's got three very large flotation bags that are made of very, very heavy, I think, vulcanized poly rubber, right? Like these, there's three big bags in case one of them breaks, right? So the pot is put on a metal on a metal sled, and then the hydraulics lift up this pot, and the pot slides off the boat and goes into the water. And then as it floats down, the the line on spools behind it. So there's a buoy floating that's got three bags, and each bag is probably about this big. We call them bags, but they're just air-inflated balloons of super heavy plastic. And these three balloons, sometimes they use two, but we used three. These balloons have like a leader line on them that's about eight foot. So you get a big triangle of three balloons that's probably roughly about 12 feet across from any point on the triangle. So you drive in a line and they're called strings. So the captain will look at the topographic map of the seafloor, and through his experience and through his time at sea, he'll kind of determine what are good areas where the crab are populated. Because crabs, crab tend to cluster in big areas. They're not just evenly spread across the seafloor. And the seafloor in the Bering Sea has some sort of like unique topographical ocean floor dynamics to it that like have crab proliferate there in massive, massive numbers, millions on millions on millions of them. So the captain will find an area and he'll sort of line the boat up in a straight line where you can drop these pots a couple hundred meters apart from each other. They'll spool them down, and while they're falling down, what he'll do is he'll use his radar map and he'll mark where they are in the GPS. And then not only that, but the bags are super brightly colored. They're bright orange and white. They're usually a big round floating bag, and half of the bag is orange and half of the bag is white. So they're pretty easy to see. Over time, they get washed out and they get sunbleached. But the boat will ride along and you'll have about 120 pots. The the cages are called pots. And you'll drop a bunch of pots in a row, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And they're heavy, right? Yeah, I think they wear like 600 pounds. They're they're huge, right? Um they're heavy enough that two grown, I don't know if they're 600 pounds. They're probably a little bit lighter than that, but you and I together, with a lot of effort, could get one up off the ground, and three of us could stand one up on its edge. It's several hundred pounds. Um these pots are dropped off into the water in a long string, and they're left to soak for anywhere from eight to ten to twenty hours. But I know that you can't let them soak too long. They have to be picked up in kind of a rotation. So the boat will go and they'll drop them off like a bomber, dropping off bombs. Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. You'll go in another line, you'll drop off another row of them. The captain will mark and log all of them. All the bags have tags on them. And then you'll go to another area and drop off pots, and then you'll make a big circuituous route. And this route might be many, many, many miles. And you'll come back in the next day and you'll pick them up and you'll haul them up. And the way that that's done is a guy will stand on the deck with a three-prong grappling hook. And this is the dangerous part of the job. The engineer stands in an area where he's got a rack of hydraulic switches, um, levers. He'll stand there and he'll take a grappling hook and he'll hook it out, and he'll try to get the hook to land in that triangle of floats. The hook will sink and it'll grab one of those lines, and the engineer and another man will furiously pull that rope in as hard as they can. They'll lift the bags up onto the deck, and they'll take the leader line from the deck and they'll hook it into a shiv. A shiv is two big brass metal. Uh they're like they're like discs that are concave and face into each other. So the discs have like a like a concave area like this in between them. Once the line is hooked into the shiv, he'll lock it in with a hydro and he'll he'll hit another hydro and that spins a metallic crank that like a rotary engine that pulls this pot up at great speed from the depths. While it's pulling it up, it's shooting a huge amount of line at very high speed onto the deck floor. So one guy has to take that line and guide it into like it looks like a big metal, like 55-gallon drum that's got a door on it. That was my job for a long time. You manage the line flying into this metal drum, and you get the line in there so it coils up nice and tall, right? The shiv raises the pot up and the pot comes up and it's dangling in the air in the air. Then the crit the shiv is on a crane. The three-man, I mean, the boat engineer maneuvers the crane so it's over the deck, and the three-man and the four-man will grab this swinging pot, this huge several hundred-pound swinging pot that's now loaded with product with catch. You'll grab it and you'll forcibly guide it onto a big metal ramp that's on the boat. When it lands on the boat, the engineer will see it and he'll hit another metallic switch, and that'll activate what's known as dogs. These dogs are big metal clamps that look about probably the size of my arm. It's a big metal arm, and it'll bam, it'll it'll hit down really, really with a lot of force. Several hundred, maybe a couple thousand pounds of hydraulic force, boom, and I'll lock the pot in. Once the pot's locked in, the ramp will level up. Another guy will open the cage door, and all of the product in the in the um cage will fall out onto a massive sorting tray. The sorting tray is probably, I don't know, I want to say eight to nine foot wide and about four foot long. All the product will spill out of it. Sometimes five crabs will come out, sometimes three hundred crabs will come out. And you got to sort them, throw them down the chutes. Yeah, because they have to be a certain size. They have to be a certain size, and you can't catch females. And you can flip a crab over really quickly and tell if it's a male or female. So the females get thrown back over the board, they sink down and they live their crab life again. Because you don't want to kill all the females because that's how you breed more crabs. Anyway, the crab's getting sorted while that's happening. Another man is going and he's filling a bait bag. You've got a big tray that's full of shredded cod. You take big three-foot cod and you feed them basically into this equivalent of a woodchepper that shreds these cod into little tiny, shredded like pieces. And then you take a big metal scoop, scoop it up, fill a bait bag, wind the bait bag, full it, pull it tight, clip it shut, and now you've got probably I want to say it's 30, 40 pounds. It's pretty heavy. You know, you got a 30, 40 pound bag of wet, chopped, disgusting bait. That bait permeates the smell of everything on the deck. It doesn't matter where you are on the boat, even if you're the captain. The captain might be upstairs in his underwear, driving the boat, drinking a cup of coffee. He's gonna smell like bait. The whole boat reeks of bait. You throw this bloody stinking bag of bait, clip it into the pot. By this time the pot's empty, slam the door shut, open up that big metal drum, and you lift up several hundred feet of soaking wet polyester line. It's heavy, it's heavy as shit. I don't know how heavy it is, but I I mean it's it's it's damn heavy. You throw the line up on top of the pot, you throw the bags back up on top of the pot. Once everyone's cleared, you call clear, everyone steps back, the engineer hits the hydros again, it lifts the pot up, and boom, it dumps back into the ocean. Or if you're gonna roll out and go somewhere else, you throw the line inside of the pot, tuck it away, shut the doors, and then the crane comes down, picks up the pot, lifts it up, carries it to the back of the boat, and this is where it gets hectic. This is frightening. The pots are stacked up really high. These pots might be stacked up at least the height of the ceiling, eight to ten foot. You gotta climb up on this pile of pots on the back of a boat that's bucking, moving minimum six, sometimes twenty foot, land the pot, put it on the stack, and then carabiner click clip it into the other pots. Or, like we used to do, there's hundreds, there might be thousands of pieces of line that are about two and a half foot long, and you gotta lash the pot in with a um with an overhand lash. And uh, you know, like a splice edge, just over and over and over again. So tie these things over and over and over again, and eventually you've got this giant Lego pile of pots in the back of the boat that's whipping around and moving. And like, if you're a new guy, guess who's climbing up on this pot's landing this pile? That's gonna be you. And that's that's intimidating because now I'm on the back of a boat, I'm 10, 15 feet in the air, I'm 20, 30 foot off the surface of the sea, and we're moving up and down at 20 foot. I'm I'm got my sea legs standing on a netting pot, trying to land another one, land it, and then tie it as fast as I can into the other pots. And that just goes on over and over and over and over again. It's just blinding until every moment just turns into the next moment. It's just over and over and over again. How long are you guys out to see at any one time? A long pull might be four days, five days at a time. And then finally all the catch is out or all the pots are laid. Once the boat is full of catch, we're talking many, many thousands, thousands of pounds, tons, tons of catch. The boat will turn around and you'll steam back as fast as you can to shore, to a processing plant. You'll come in, and that is finally you can get some rest because that might be an 18-hour drive back to shore. Anywhere from like an 8 to 10 to 16 to 18 hour ride back to shore. Come back to shore, bring the boat in, you got to land the boat, you gotta throw line, tie up the bullard, stuff like that, and then you gotta empty the product into a processor and fill out all the paperwork and stuff like that.
HostSo you maybe you're trying to get back out as soon as possible.
Chris McCoyAs soon as possible. That was called the derby style. Nowadays, they realize that the derby style is very dangerous. So now it's they've slowed it down considerably. So these guys can work at more of an acceptable rate. That way, if bad weather comes up, guys are less likely to like work through bad weather, less likely to work through like dangerous kinetic situations. Like there's the way they describe it is like, man, this crab aren't going anywhere, you know? Like, we can get them at our leisure. So, um, but back in the day it was derby style. Just get them as fast as you humanly can get out of there. Was it to because the season was only so long? And yeah, the season was only open for so many days. So you've got from today to today to work it. That was called the Derby style. Now it's done by weight. Once you catch your weight, then you're done.
HostYeah, how did that how did that derby race change the way that you guys actually worked?
Chris McCoyWell, it rewarded people who were more willing to work longer hours, you know? Because you're essentially not you're not getting paid by the hour, you're not getting paid by the job. You're getting paid by as much catch as you can bring in. So if you've got four weeks to do this, or you've got three weeks to do this, that's your only time. But now it's done by weight, which is a much smarter, safer way to do it. Guys are probably up there longer now, but um the danger, I mean, there have been times where we had to pull into Lee of like harbors. I've I've harbored up next to the Pribilov Islands before, waiting out storms and stuff like that. And guys were like, damn, dude, we need to get back out there. We need to get out there, we're burning time, we need to get out there. And that sense of like frantic urgency has has been dampened quite a bit because that's that's what leads to accidents and deaths.
HostAnd those guys, you know, they're trying to make their whole year's salary off.
Chris McCoyYeah, yeah, in two seasons. Yeah, your whole year. You know, if your whole year comes down to three weeks, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go manic. I mean, there's a lot of guys out there watching this. If you were out there and you had to make your entire year's nut in three weeks, you're gonna work every single hour of every single day, you know.
HostYeah, what was the work schedule rotation like?
Chris McCoyUh, when we were on the boat, it was 20 on, four off.
HostDamn.
Chris McCoyYeah, 20 hours, four on when you're pulling pots. So one guy you get to go down, you get a couple hours of sleep, rotate back out. There's always one guy sleeping, trying to get that four hours of sleep coming back on. And you're so exhausted, it doesn't matter how much caffeine or nicotine or stimulants are in you, you just black out. You just black out. I can remember laying down, closing my eyes, and then waking back up, and I'm just back in it again. But it's 20 on, four off while you're out to sea. And then when you come back, it's a little bit more like 12 and 12. And then when you're doing catch working at the CP, it's you know, it's whatever the CP went.
HostThat explains the excessive use of stimulants.
Chris McCoyYou know, we had some people in the comments like, oh yeah, right, your boat didn't you'd you know. Well, our boat was very, very um, very, very fanatically led by Ron Lloyd. Ron Lloyd did not allow drugs or alcohol on his boat. Every boat captain is the ultimate law and authority on our boat. Our boat had a very, very strict no alcohol or drugs policy. But we were, I mean, you're just cranked full of like caffeine and nicotine to like an to an unbelievable, to like a nuclear level. Every guy on that boat is just one walking caffeine molecule.
HostYeah. What is it uh, what's the like regimen to get ready for season?
Chris McCoyIs there a bunch of stuff you have to do to the boat for yeah, like um there's like a two-week, if if I recall correctly, it was like a two-week period of time where you float, you fly up to Alaska, you fly up to Anchorage, and then you fly out to Dutch Harbor. That's actually kind of like a cool, fun, uh, that's like the best experience of being like a Bering Sea crabbing fisherman, because you're basically working eight to ten hour shifts. You wake up on the boat, you go tie your nets up. Um, I know one thing I had to do was I had to stick well thousands and thousands and thousands of these like zinc sticks onto the pots because from what I understand, zinc um belays or delays uh um oxidization of the steel when it's in the water. Um, because you know it's in salt water for its entire life cycle. So I just remember um stick welding thousands of thousands and thousands and thousands of zinc sticks onto the pots, and then you're cutting uh you're cutting leader lines, you're cutting in time. And blowtorching leader lines, you're getting the boat cleaned up, you're fueling the boat, you're buying sundries. So you're basically working a tradesman style job for about 10 hours a day for two weeks, and there's nothing to do up there except go to the little gym and party at the elbow room. And you're like, hey man, can I get some money to go to the elbow room? Sure. How much you need? I don't know, 200 bucks. How about 2,000 bucks? Here's a big massive wad of cash out of the safe. It's an advance on your check. Like, yeah, I think I'm gonna go to the bar tonight and just trash beers.
HostYeah. Good lord, dude. Yeah. Um, any crazy stories from your time at the the bars up there in Alaska? Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris McCoyThe Elba Room. I don't know if the Elber, I don't think the Elba Room exists anymore, but there was a notorious bar, and we talked about this in the last pod, so we're covering stuff that we talked about before, but you're at the very end of the earth. You're on the last wild frontier that exists on planet Earth with a bunch of misfit sailors and fishermen in a town that doesn't have a stoplight, and it's got one massive, massive bar in the middle of it. And you get a bunch of these misfit outlaw guys at the end of the planet Earth with a big pile of money in their pocket, and it gets crazy in there. It got insane in there. That's like as hard as I've ever partied my entire life. It was a it was a wild time. I don't think the elbow room exists anymore, but if you're out there listening, you can go look it up. The Elbow Room, Dutch Harbor.
HostDid you run into any of the crews from The Deadliest Catch?
Chris McCoyAbsolutely, yeah, yeah. I partied quite a bit with the Hillstrand brothers. I talked about this in the last one. I've got the I don't know about the notoriety, but I partied with and I threw up in the back of Jonathan Hillstrand's Chevy Silverado. So as a young greenhorn, I puked my guts, I puked my guts up in the in the back of uh Jonathan Hillstrand's Chevy Silverado in the parking lot of the elbow room.
HostWhat did you see off the camera from those guys? Um was different versus what you saw on TV?
Chris McCoyA lot of those guys are bikers, I noticed. Uh a lot of those guys, I don't know if they're bikers or not, but a lot of those guys are on motorcycles. I I think that because I didn't I didn't have a community with those guys outside of Dutch Harbor. A lot of those guys do have community when they come home. A lot of those guys live in Mexico, and a lot of those guys have motorcycles. And uh I think a lot of the guys, those guys literally look like you, the big chopper back home, and they come home and they got 50k in their pocket and they go to Mexico and they just party that money up. They buy some cheap property somewhere, maybe in like a trailer. A lot of those guys own trailer homes somewhere out in the middle of nowhere, and they just get to ride in their motorcycle and partying in their off days because they've got a ton of disposable income.
HostSo a lot of them didn't live up in Alaska then, huh?
Chris McCoyNo, no one lived in Alaska, no. They all just fly in from different parts of the earth, or they ride boats up there and they set to working, and then you walk out of there 50k. You know, I mean, imagine, you know, imagine going up and doing that kind of work, and at the end of the day, boom, here's a check for 50k. See you in a couple months, you know.
HostYou work King Crab and then and then Opelio or OP, then King again. What's the difference between those two seasons, like once you're on deck, or is it the same?
Chris McCoyUm, from my experience, King has a lot worse weather. Uh, the weather is way more kinetic. There's a lot more high seas. The high seas is the worst part. Like you can adapt. Opelio is a lot of more frozen weather, a lot more hard labor because you're breaking ice spray off of the boat all the time and it's a lot colder. But from my experience, the weather during king season was way worse. And the weather, the high seas, that's what beats your ass. That would that's what beats you down. That's what's dangerous because the boat is moving up and down and up and down and up and down. I just remember king season was a lot more dangerous, I thought, than OP season. At least when I was up there, maybe I was up there during a cycle of weather when the weather wasn't as bad for OP. Opie's a lot more freezing cold and beating, like you take big plastic malls and breaking ice off the boat, but king was a lot more violent weather, and the violent weather is what's frightening and dangerous. Or some of the closest calls you had. I mean, I know it's super dangerous. We talked about the big wave one. Um, yeah, um, I mentioned this in the first pod, but we didn't go too into it. I was almost killed um maybe like a week into my first pool, actually out in king season. Um and I didn't even know it. So every fisherman up there carries a small belt that's got an extremely sharp, brand new. Um, I forget the name of the company, but they're it's a little the boat has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these knives and plastic. Use a knife a couple times, you'll throw it away and get a new one, right? So you've always got a wickedly sharp, brand new. It's like the size of a steak knife. It's serrated and it's meant to cut through line almost instantly. If you pull a line tight and slash it really hard with this knife, it'll go right through the poly, the poly line. Um they're little lightweight knives, and every single guy carries a belt with a scabbard on it with that knife tucked in it. Um, the knife locks into the scabbard, and most guys, if you're right-handed, they carry them um crossways on your belt, so you can just pull it out and yank it out and cut cut line with it. Put it back in the scabbard, use it a few times, it gets dull, you chuck the knife away, get another one, right? Um, I was working the portion where I told you where I was picking up the heavy line and hauling it, throwing it up on top of the pot. Pot goes down, and I wasn't paying attention because I'm a brand new guy. And the deck of the boat looks like a giant. It looks like a giant spaghetti dinner of thousands and thousands and thousands of feet of line all over the place. There's just like uh, it's impossible to keep the deck fully organized of line. As a sailor, you're always kind of trying to keep your line organized, but it's just impossible to keep the line organized all the time. Somehow I had gotten between here's the railing of the boat, the pot, the pot went off the boat, and the pot was on spooling, and I was between a line that was crossing around me and the pot. And as the pot descended into the depths, I could feel this line brushing up against my hip, and I didn't think anything of it. And the line got tighter and tighter and tighter, and in my mind, I was like, Oh, I'll just turn around and step over the line. But the line grabbed me and yanked me up against the uh the seawall. And the cook, who's also uh you know a very experienced line handle and deck man, he ran over with his knife and he cut the line and he screamed out to the engineer, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, and he cut the line and the pot went down into the depths, and we lost the pot. And uh I think I did talk about this on the on the first pod, but um I think we did. We'll have to talk to Odie about this, but um the captain shut the boat down and he came down and he dressed me down really like Captain Ron Lloyd had a very warm, fatherly, kind-hearted energy to him. And he came down, he pulled me up in the bridge, and he F and screamed at me. He's like, What are you doing? You know, like they were upset about the loss of the pot because each pot has a tag on it, sort of like hunters when they get a tag for like elk or something like that. The pot the tag itself costs a lot of money. They lost the pot, but in that action, I'd almost been killed in my ignorance. He dressed me down, and you know, when someone yells at you all the time or someone's a hard ass all the time, you can kind of blow it off. But when someone's kind and warm and then they come down on you really hard, it makes a big impression on you. And he told me, he's like, I need you to pay the F attention to what you're doing here. You're almost killed, right? And I didn't even know because I was like, oh, some more line is unpooling. So what happened? It was wrapped, it was gonna be wrapped around you. Yeah, the line was gonna pull me over, and at best, it would have fractured my spine. At worst, it would have pitched me over the side of the boat into the sea. And the the the cook had the mental wherewithal very quickly to run over and sni and cut this line as it was unspooling, so we lost the pot. But in my ignorance, I had no, I wasn't paying attention. You know, it was my first time on a crabbing boat. Like, that's how little mishaps happen. No one goes up there and is just blindly no one is up there and becomes an expert at that craft in your first day. You know, I'd been up there two weeks.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyAnd I was almost killed, I was almost dragged overboard by a pot until a man stepped in and he cut the line. And the captain came in and he flashed on me heavy. And after that, that really locked me into like, man, this is I didn't even get the adrenaline dump. I was sort of like, whoa, I didn't even know what happened. Like they had to explain to me, like, dude, you almost got killed. And I was uh I I uh you know, I didn't know. But that was a real close brush with death. That's a lot different than when someone shoots at you or an explosion goes off because you're innately aware of what just almost happened.
HostHow did uh how did getting paid actually work on the boat? Like, was it the total haul? Like how how uh this is the part I'm most curious about.
Chris McCoyYeah, so the boat gets all of its catch during the derby system, the catch is weighed and processed, and the boat's paid out. So the boat is basically a franchise member of a bigger uh company, right? So I was a member of the Caldestet Fisheries. For you Facebook boomers who are hating on me, I worked for Caldestet Fisheries, ran by Kevin Caldestet. I I think Kevin Caldistet retired, and I don't know if Caldist exists anymore, but Caldestet had a fleet of seven boats. They were all known as the F V Something Mariner, right? I was on the Pacific Mariner, there was the Northern Mariner. You know, there were all the different Mariner, it was known as the Mariner Fleet. So the boats are paid out for their catch. Each boat gets their share. That share goes to the captain, and then depending on your rank, you get a percentage of that share. As a greenhorn, I think my pay was something like I don't know, like 3%. Maybe the engineer was making 6%. Maybe Ron was making 12%. I don't know what, but my share was a little bit. And they just write you back then it was a paper check, and my check was for 30 some K. Hey, broke guy, hey guy who's completely destitute and broke as hell and was working in a day in a day trade. Here's $34,000. Have fun and be merry. We'll see you in a couple months. And I just had no idea what to do with that money. I just, it was like it uh even now, even now in my position, if I give you a check right now for $30,000, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money. And when you're dead broke and you've got a kind of download drug addiction, that's uh like an almost fatal mistake. I was very I was smart enough. I paid my rent for a year. I remember that. I was living in this, I was living in a nicer apartment than I should have been living in. I remember I paid my rent for a year. In Alaska or you're still in Seattle? In Seattle. And to be honest with you, I don't know what I did with the money. I cocked it up. I blew that money, I ran through that money. I don't even know. I didn't even, you know, I I will, I, I destroyed that money. I have nothing to show for it. I bought, oh, I did, I bought a shitload of like DJ equipment. I remember that. Um, I used to be a very like serious DJ music guy, so I bought a bunch of music gear and DJ production stuff and millions of records and a bunch of shoes. I've always been a sneaker head. So I bought a shitload of shoes and uh I put some money down on my shit car. But yeah, the rest of that money, just like a young, ignorant guy, like I, you know, I know everyone out there in the comment section, you guys would have invested that money in a mutual fund and turned it into a million dollars, but I did not adopt it. I cocked that money up immediately.
HostWhat um what was the pullback? Was it just the money, or did you did you like the adventure?
Chris McCoyI liked the adventure. I liked being on the boat. I knew that I was doing something unusual, and um, I was still in that very high drive gear mode where like, yeah, I couldn't have been in an office. What was your relationship with your crew? It was great. Uh, there was Bronco. Uh Mark, I believe his last name is Ellis. Comments, guys, you'll probably suss me on on this. But Bronco, Mark, I think his last name was Ellis, but I could be wrong. He was an old, grizzled, wisened uh biker dude who lived in in Mexico in the offseason. He had uh red beard and red hair, always had a Marlboro 100 hanging out of his mouth, smoked down to the wick. He was one of those dudes. He would smoke while he was eating. You know, he always was just face-weathered and beat down, and he was cool. Mark was a Bronco was a huge influence on me. He was super friendly, he was funny as hell. He had a lot of juice and a lot of respect up there, and he was like, he was the boat engineer. He's what I would consider the senior NCO on the boat. The engineer is generally speaking the second in command on the boat. You've got the captain, who's clearly the commanding officer, right? The captain is your leader, he's your ahab, but he's not your buddy, right? Bronco was of us. He was the most senior of us. Bronco had been up there, I want to say damn near 20 years when I had been up there. And Bronco was awesome. Every interaction I ever had with Bronco was a good one. Um, for those of you who are listening who might know those guys from back in that day, Bronco was very, very well known up there. Bronco and Ron Lloyd had very long careers up in the Bering Sea, and they were very well known. Uh, the cook, I can't remember his name, but he was Mexican as well. He lived on a ranch in Mexico in the offseason, and um, he was a Mexican guy who spoke very little English. And he was just a big, huge Mexican guy who was meaner than shit. I remember that. He was he was a hard ass. He was a he was he was a Bering Sea fisherman, and in the offseason, he was a Mexican horse rancher. So that was a that was a tough guy. And then we had Dave the three man who I got into it quite a bit with, and then we had Brent, who was a long ladder and worked halibut. That Brent was a fisherman 365 days a year. He would get off the boat from crab and he would go do something else, whether that be halibut or longline or tuna or whatever. But that guy just lived at sea 24 hours a day for his entire life. I had a good relationship with the boat. Dave and I had a big personality conflict in the beginning. We got in a fight on the boat, and then after the rogue wave incident, it cleared us up and we were fine afterwards. Um, and Brent and Dave were hardcore, hardcore partiers off of the boat, drugs and alcohol. But they were absolutely fine fishermen. Let it be said that those dudes were fantastic fishermen, but they were wild men. You know, if you're not from that culture, you don't just those guys are wild dudes. They're wild men up there, they're not normal people. So I had a good relationship with the guys on the boat, and then um Ron Lloyd was a real stabilizing factor in my life. I wish I'd stayed there longer, but I got burnt out by it. That coming back to back from my career as a ranger, I was just gone from home forever. The CNS load, the allostatic load, the adrenaline load on my body was like a, you know, I was living with the pedal pressed to the floor for probably eight years at that point.
HostDid you find some similarities in what you were doing in the Bering Sea with what you were doing, with what you had done at the regiment?
Chris McCoyNo, but I think the traits that made me a Ranger NCO translated uh extremely well into what I was doing up there. The fitness, excuse me, the mental toughness, you have to be mentally hard to do that job. You gotta be physically fit and you gotta be mentally hard. And I had those two in spades. And I think that's what, you know, like if you're a boat captain and you're in dry dock and you lose a crew member, and you're looking at a group of people around you in order to be like a low-level grunt on your boat. My guess would be, like Ron Lloyd, hey, this dude is a ranger sergeant versus this guy is like, you know, off the street. Hey, we got a young, physically fit, fantastically motivated ranger sergeant. I think this guy can be taught how to haul line and throw line and work on a boat. So I already had the physical traits from the regiment that made me really good to fit in on the boat with those guys. Because I was a wild man and I was a crazy dude, and I was out at the ends of the earth, and I, you know, I was displaced. I didn't have a family,
I didn't have anything to go home to. I was I was out there just seeking the ends of oblivion, you know? So I was a very good fit.
HostUm what is it that you think you found out there that would help you later on in life? Because that was the beginning to start setting you you straight. I mean, you fell again, but ultimately you picked yourself back up.
Chris McCoyI think the thing that I brought most from it that I still carry today is that like um I had a willingness to do stuff that were very, very do things that were very unusual and different than other people. I've lived quite an unusual life. And that just sort of put another sense into me, like, hey man, I don't have to be like everyone else.
I can literally do whatever is in front of me. You know, I don't have to go work in an office or I don't have to go work in the trades. I can just literally set on my own path and like live an adventure. Like I don't have to fit inside the boundaries of what people tell me to do. But eventually that caught up to me. You know, it burned me out. I'm talking complete, complete burnout. You go from being a ranger at war, then you go to being a Bering Sea fisherman. That's you know, that's a that's quite a lot to put on somebody's mind and nervous system for years on end.
HostYeah, the Bering Sea has like this level of cold. Um, you know, low 40s water in the summer, mid-30s in the winter. How fast can that take you? That sea, that cold water, like falling overboard is pretty detrimental. It's one of the many aspects in the danger of being up there.
Chris McCoyYeah, well, I mean, um, I don't know the science behind it, but I know that guys who go in those overboard positions usually aren't recovered. Um, when men have been washed oversea, overboard, um, it's very rare that they're recovered. My three man, I said this in the last pod, had been oversea, had been overboard, and he had been recovered. He spent a month in the hospital. Now, that month wasn't just because of the injuries that it sustained when he was in the water. I I believe he fractured his femur when he was recovered. Um but that water will kill you, period. This isn't like, oh, I jumped off the deck of my boat into the bay and it was really cold. And they recovered me. But like, this is like a wild, unearthly, violent, pitching sea in the middle, and you're up by the Arctic Circle. Like, that is not a survivable environment. What's the weirdest thing you ever saw when you were out at sea? The the um I've seen a couple really amazing things up there. You know, it wasn't all doom and gloom. Some of the stuff I saw up there was incredible. Um two things that stick out to my mind uh are with the fauna and flora of being up somewhere that's alien, completely alien up there. I remember one night, so when you're bringing the boat back to um shore to drop off your catch, sometimes that can be a really long pull. Sometimes that can be 18, sometimes that can be a 24-hour trip because the boat's not moving fast. We're talking like six knots, I think. So if you're several hundred miles out at sea, it's gonna take you a long time, many, many hours to come back. I remember one night they put me in the bridge. It was just my turn to be on the bridge for four hours, right? You go in little three or four hour shifts. Hey, man the stick, man the wheelhouse, man the radio, man the sonar. This is all you got to do. You see this number on the on the screen, you keep this number at this number. And if the boat deviates, you use the stick and get us back on path. And it's kind of cool. You're up there, you're totally by yourself, and like you can mess with the stick a little bit, like, oh, we're going left a little bit, oh, we're going right a little bit. Like, you know, you're a young guy, you're in the you're in the pilot house at night, all by yourself. You're trusted to drive the boat for a couple hours. You're like, wow, I'm driving the boat. I'm driving the boat. I'm up here driving the boat with my joystick. This is cool, right? So I'm up in the wheelhouse one night, and it's a perfectly calm, clear, moonlit night where the moon is out and it's super, super bright. Had to been 80% of looms. Moon and starry sky and the sea. I don't know how this happens. One of the people who's smarter than me in the comments can probably tell us, but sometimes out at the open sea, the open sea becomes perfectly flat glass. I don't know how that happens. But it has to be less than a foot swell. So we're steaming along. Not steaming, it's not steam power, it's diesel power, but like we're we're cruising along in the middle of the night. I'm in the I'm in the bunk, I'm in the um the bridge by myself. And the bridge has a window, a sliding window, you can open up. And if you look out the sliding window, you can look straight down to the sea f to the sea next to you. You're probably 20 feet in the air. Had the window open, fully moonlit night. And um, we're cruising along, and I noticed that the sea becomes perfectly flat glass. It was like I was on a pool table. It was crazy. As far as I can see in every direction, it's perfectly black ink, matte black. And I looked down and we went through the boat has huge. Huge lights in it shining down on the surface of the sea. And I looked down and we rode through, I guess, a jellyfish bloom. I don't know what kind of jellyfish these are, but they were cream colored and they had domes on them that had to be three, four foot wide. And there were millions and millions and millions of them. As I looked down, I could see the boat smashing through them, and they had to be in layers, 10, 20 feet deep. The boat going through this bloom of jellyfish. And we rode through this, I want to say maybe for an hour. For an hour straight, we rode through this jellyfish bloom where there was millions of them. I couldn't believe it. I've never seen anything like this. These massive, massive jellyfish. Jellyfish are very common when you pull the net up. There's like jellyfish and like fishermen you'll see have like burn marks on their cheeks and stuff from like the jellyfish. It's not stingers. I don't know what they are, but like the little stinging cells in them, they don't sting you, they just kind of cause like a little hot rash, like where they get on you from the line and stuff like that. But like this bloom of jellyfish, there was billions of them. And again, I remember thinking to myself, I'm never gonna see something like this ever again in my life. And I can just remember, like Bronco, I had a cigarette hanging out of my mouth, and I was out over the door like this. I just taking this moment in, looking down and like looking down in the water with these millions and millions and millions of massive, massive jellyfish and looking out, and the sea is so black, it just goes from black sea into sky. It's like the strange sense of vertigo and the moon, massive, massive silver bright moon hanging down. I just remember thinking, like, wow, I'm hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles out to sea, away from civilization. And I'm the only one awake on the boat. I'm the only person on earth who's seeing this right now. And I don't even, all these years later, I probably should have done some more research and to see what it is, but I've never seen anything like that. I doubt many people maybe uh, you know, I'll bet you, I'll bet you some of the listeners out here have served on naval ships, and I'm sure I'm not the only man who's seen this, but it was very shocking to me. If you're out there and you've seen something like that, please leave a comment because I don't know what that phenomenon is, but it was very interesting. Another one was um I saw a real sea leopard, like a leopard, like the spotted ones. I was fishing off the deck of the boat when we were in Dutch Harbor, and I had a fishing rod. There were some old fishing rods on the boat. And um Bronco comes up to me. It's the middle of the day, it's cool, crisp, foggy day. And the boat's in uh the boat's tied up in Dutch. Uh, we're on our like two weeks where we're prepping the boat, and Bronco comes up to me. He's like, hey man, you want to do a little fishing? I was like, all right, cool. We go to the back of the boat, and he's got two rod and reels, and he's casting and we're fishing. And he's like, Man, there's a lot of Irish lord in these waters. And these are crazy looking fish. They've got spines all over them. They're brown and spotted and striped. He's like, uh, he's like, they're good eating, uh, but we're not gonna eat them. But they're fighters. Like you can throw down there and um pull up an Irish lord, and that thing will fight you all the way up, come up. Just make sure you got gloves on, unhook the thing and chuck it back, right? Because we're they're bycatch, we're not gonna keep them. I'm like, all right, cool. I'm out there fishing with Bronco. We're just chit-chatting. He's smoking, he's got a his permanent Marlboro 100 in his mouth. And um we catch a couple fish, and he's like, all right, man, I'm gonna turn it in or I'm gonna go off, do whatever. I was like, Oh, that's cool. I think I'm a fish for all. He's like, hey, whatever you do, don't reach over the side of the boat to pull that fish in. Pull this fish all the way up, sling it on the boat, then undo it and throw it over. Like, why? He's like, Well, there's sea lions and there's sea leopards out there, and if one of them comes up and grabs that fish, it's gonna grab your arm, it's gonna rip your fucking arm off. And I was like, Okay, sure, bud, whatever. He's like, Well, see you later, and he rolls out, and I was like, okay, you're just Bronco was cool. Like, I was clearly you're messing with me, right? So I'm fishing and I'm having a little moment. I'm like, wow man, I'm in Dutch Harbor, the mist rolling in, the hills, and like you can hear the boats and stuff. It's just me out here fishing. I was like, I'm like doing the real fisherman thing. I'm fishing off the side of the boat in Dutch Harbor. And I see a head come up out of the water, and it was the size of a man. This sea animal. I'm sorry, not a not a leopard. I'm sorry, not a sea leopard. A sea lion. Let me rephrase it. A sea lion, not a sea leopard. This huge, massive sea lion. I see, I look down and I see what looks like a head, bigger than a man's head, or the size of a man's head, slowly pop up out of the water, like in that scene in Apocalypse Now where he comes out, comes out like this. And these animals are very sentient, and they've got big eyes, and he was staring at me. He was he came out of the water like this, and he was staring at me. And it was a little unnerving, and he boop went back down out of the water, right? And I was like, that was kind of odd. So I'm fishing, I don't have any fish online. And then I hear something out of the corner of my eye, see him come up again on the other side. Now he's like 30 feet away on the other side. And this time he comes up all the way out of the water up to like his shoulders. And it's massive. I mean, it's much bigger than a man, right? This thing is the size of much bigger than an NFL linebacker. This is a big, big animal. I don't know how big it is. Like it's the size of freaking Bigfoot coming up out of the water. And he came up out of the water and he stared at me. And I s maybe it was my perception of it, but he was staring at me with absolute malice, right? And then very slowly went down under the water like it was an elevator again. And I and that was a little unnerved by the like, damn, that was weird. Pull line back, throw it back out again. And now he just came up out of the water again, like this. And he stared at me and heard him huff, like and it was unnerving because I, you know, like this is a massive, massive animal, and it was very clear like, hey, dude, what are you doing in my effing living room? You know what I mean? That's my fish. You don't come in here and take that's like that's my meal, you know. I was in his living room in his house, and it was really odd because like I can't replicate it, but it was like he was on an elevator, just perfectly still in the water, staring at me, click, and then 20 feet over here, click, check me out, click. And it dawned on me that Bronco was right. Bronco wasn't messing with me, it told me the truth. Like, dude, don't reach down there. That thing will come as slow and as controlled and as perfectly stable as he came up. It was very obvious that this thing had the power and athleticism. He could have easily come up and grabbed that fish and done whatever he wanted with it. And that was that was a little off-putting because it made me think later in life, like, maybe those stories of like sea monsters or I don't know about mermaids or not, but like dude, the the world is two-thirds water.
HostWe haven't even fully discovered what's under there. So I'm always like, every time I talk to people who have spent a lot of time at sea, I'm always asking questions. No hidden agenda, but I'm just like, what did you see? Because I've there's so many sea lore stories of people seeing everything from spacecraft to aliens to mermaids and everything else in between.
Chris McCoyUm I've seen humpback whales and I've I've seen whales spout out at sea, but that was unnerving. I mean, if I was on the deck of the boat and I was a good 10, 12 feet off the water, like I bet you he was as close to like not me to you, but maybe a few feet away. And he just came up perfectly quiet like this. And you know the way your dog looks at you and your dog knows, you know? He's and this thing is much, much bigger than a man. Came up perfect. I don't know how many this a several hundred-pound animal, you know, like maybe I don't know, I don't know how big they get. 600 pounds, 800 pounds, a thousand pounds. I don't know, they're massive.
HostWhat was up? What was your scariest moment at sea, you think?
Chris McCoyUm, there was one night where the sea had gotten really, really, really heavy and it blew up pretty quickly, and it was late black in the middle of the night. And we had gone from like four foot swell to like twenty-two-foot swell in minutes. And I remember getting ready to go back out on deck, and Bronco stopped me. He was like, Hey man, it's about to get crazy out there. Are you you know, you ready? And he was like, just trust your hands, make sure your footing's safe, but like it's about it's about to get really real up here. I mean, when the sea gets that big, it frightens even the most experienced guy on the boat. I don't care who you are, it's frightening. It's frightening, it's terrifying because when you go out onto the boat, the boat is moving up and down so high, and I spoke about this before. When the boat goes up in a crest, you can't see anything, and then it crashes down into a trough, and the sea is high much, much higher than the boat. So you're in a trough and you're looking up into a gigantic black stone-looking granite wave, and it's making this massive, roaring, sub-bass noise that you can feel in your guts. There's no way to play it on a speaker. Maybe if you had massive subwoofers in your car, you could um recreate the sound. Or maybe if you had giant guitar amps, you could make the sound, but it makes a roaring jet engine sub-bass throttling hum that kind of makes you ill. And you know that you gotta walk out on that deck and you gotta perform for hours in this shit. And there's nothing to do except fuck and then go out and do it. And it's it's it's pretty terrifying. I can confidently say that first night walking out on that deck, seeing those kind of waves in the middle of the night, that is the most frightened I've ever been, even in combat, ever, ever in my entire life. I've been in gunfights, I've been in scores of crazy street fights. I've even um been shot at on the street in Baltimore. I've driven through the woods during a forest fire, during the Paradise Campfires in Chico, California, and I've never been that frightened ever. It's just something unearthly and alien and terrifying about it. And some guys, I mean, I just, you know, it's like the whole classic British stiff upper lip thing. Just get it. You just gotta go out there and get it on. Cause again, sort of like going back to like Owens and like, hey, the rain ain't cold, you're cold, the rain don't feel shit. Where are you gonna go? There's nowhere to go except forward, right? Even if I had quit right there, I'm not gonna do it, I'm not gonna do it. Well, then guess what? You're gonna go back and they're gonna kick you off the boat and you're not gonna get paid. There's nothing to do except swallow and move forward. Go to work. That's it. I mean, there's there's nothing to it. What uh do you still think about it when you do you eat seafood? Are you a big seafood guy? You know what's funny? I'm from Baltimore, so I'm from the land of blue crab. You know, I'm Baltimore boy. I'm Baltimore boy into my bones. You know, I am I am a Baltimore guy down on my bones. And um grew up eating crab, grew up eating blue crab. King crab, I don't I can't think of the last time I I don't think I can't think of the last time I've eaten king crab. I'm not opposed to it, it's just it doesn't, it just doesn't interest me. That's like a coutrement of of weird job that I used to do.
HostYeah, you know, I just wondered if like if you know if they you even think about it or you stay away from it because of it, you know.
Chris McCoyWell, there was a long time I can remember this very clearly. We're on ship one time, and um it was during a nice part of the daytime, the weather, the you know, the sun's out, it's clear, and like uh we're just cruising along and like we're in three foot swell, we're just motoring along and like I'm out on the deck hanging out. And um, one of these massive king crabs had gotten out of the pot, out of the freezer. Not the freezer, the refrigerator. And I'd gotten on deck and it was walking around on deck. And Bronco was teasing me, he was like, Hey, go grab that crab, throw it in there. And I went over and this crab It was in the refrigerator, like where you guys kept your food, or like No, no, no. Like the deck has these giant open refrigerators that are probably the size of this, uh, that are like the size of this carpet, and they're full of seawater that's like being circulated. So the crab gets thrown in there and it stays alive until you get back to the processor. And this is full of like not millions, but many thousands of pounds of crab, and there's three of them, right? So uh for whatever reason, one of the crab had gotten out of this thing and it was on deck, and Bronco is like, hey, go grab that crab, man, throw chuck that thing in there. And him and the cook were watching, and they were kind of laughing. Because, you know, new guy, I'm the I'm the greenhorn, and I go over to grab this crab, and this thing, this king crab was damn it had every bit of two, three feet across, and it had its hands up like this, and they're mean, they're very aggressive, scuttling around, snapping with his hands, and I was like kind of circling this thing like a bullfighter, like, holy shit, what do I do with this thing? Bronco's like, grab it, grab it, grab it, and him and him and cookie are laughing. And I ended up, it's like a gigantic, I mean, it's a big, massive crab that weighs what, 15, 20 pounds? This is a huge this is a large crustacean animal, and it's aggressive as hell, and it's got its pincers up trying to grab. So I grabbed it by its leg and I threw it in the pot. And I remember going back to the processor that night, and we dropped off a bunch of bycatch, and I was with the guys as they were signing the paperwork, and I looked into the processor, and one of the crab guys was in there, and he was sorting crab, and what they do is they take the live crab, they've got big heavy gloves, and they put them on a hard metal diagonal fin, a diamond-shaped fin, and they snap them in half like that while they're alive. They set it on the fin and crack it, and it cracks in half, and they throw both the halves into the in the processor. And I remember seeing that and being like, ugh, right? And that kind of put the thought of me like, uh, I think I'm good on crab for a while. It tastes great, but like it's the process by which we recover crab. So when you sit down to eat some king crab and dip it in butter, think of all those good dudes that died. So you could have some crab legs while you're at uh while you're at the seafood place with your surf and turf, you know.
HostWhat was the final decision point where you're just like, hey man, I'm done up here on the Bering Sea, bro?
Chris McCoyUh it's very simple. I came home and I did an audit of how long I'd been gone. Um, I remember very clearly having this conversation with my girlfriend in my apartment. And I'm gonna get the math wrong, but it was something crazy. I had been gone from home something like 24 out of 28 or 23 out of 27 months, something like that. And I was just completely fried. Even in my youthful, ignorant, drug-fueled manic state, I knew that I was just at the I was at the red line, man. Yeah, I was completely cooked. And I just remember wanting more than anything to come home and have a normal job where I came home at night and like ate some chips and watched TV.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyAnd that just it was self-inflicted, but by that point it felt like an unattainable dream. And I was just burnt out. I couldn't do it anymore. I literally couldn't do it anymore. Everybody hits their breaking point.
HostYou've had a bunch of odd jobs. One of the other things that was interesting is you did a season of um working on a forest fire crew. Were you on a hotshot crew or?
Chris McCoyNo, I was not on a hotshot crew. I want to make that very clear. I worked for tier one recovery systems. And when the Paradise Campfires happened, those famous fires, the famous tragic fires in California several years ago that killed a bunch of people. Um, I was with a company that set up forward operating bases for um EMS, first responders, and linemen to come in and restore power and basic services and render aid and support to the people that were victimized by that fire. So I was in Chico, California. I helped set up that fob there. And then I was helping do really low-level fire suppression, digging, um, digging fire breaks. And um I did that for I think three weeks, living in the back of a trailer, living in the back of a F-150 with another guy. Um and that's just another chapter gig work. Again, I got that from Sergeant Major Marciano. Thank you. Marciano has been very influential and instrumental in my life. Like when I've been in some low points, he's kind of always been there to like reach down and lend a helping hand. I just did a training deployment with him uh for the company that he works again on the West Coast. So Marciano, um, T Rock, Rocky Marciano. You know, a lot of you guys from South know him. I just want to give a special shout out and thanks, not only to like the job opportunities that that guy's given me, but a lot of like the mentorship and just good friendship and leadership that he's offered me over the years, man. You're a big part in how in me coming back, and I really appreciate everything you've done. And you know, he'd be very embarrassed right now if he were sitting here to hear this, but he would, you know, he knows what's up. He he just he's just another old soft gray beard with the tattoos and the he just looks, he just looks like a so old soft sergeant major, a grizzled dude. He was a he was a ranger at 275. That's how I met him. He went on to have a long career in in civil affairs and as a support for group and working Robin's age and stuff like that. And now he's in the contracting world. That's how I did Damneck. That's how I did hurricane support recovery, that's how I did uh working the fires and chicos, and that's how I've done some um uplift stuff with the unit. So it's cool, man. Marciano, yeah.
HostYou've had some um some some pretty cool hobbies as well. I mean, we we alluded to your I don't know how cool they are, but they're art career.
Chris McCoyYeah, my art career. Yeah, I was an artist, yeah.
HostYeah, I mean, no, I mean you uh you were probably one of the best known graffiti artists.
Chris McCoyI got paid quite a bit of money over time to do my artwork, and uh I gained quite a bit of national level notoriety doing the graffiti thing. That's something that I chased with an unbelievable, fantastic passion for well over 20 years. I tried to get Chris to design us some stuff, and he said absolutely not. No. Um I'm really good at drawing letters though, man. If you want funky letters with cool shapes and arrows coming off of them, bubbles and lasers and shit, I am your guy. On the side of a train? I'm crazy good at that. Or the highway. I'm definitely like a black belt grandmaster at drawing sick ass letters and logos. What does it take?
HostI I I wasn't even prepared to talk about the graffiti stuff, but just out of curiosity, what does it take to, you know, sneak in somewhere, throw graffiti, and then disappear? Like you see these dudes that have graffitied, you know, signs suspended like from a highway and like it's called bomb the heavens, yeah. Yeah.
Chris McCoyWell, I'll say this. Um, this is uh look, I'm not very qualified to speak on a lot of things. This is something I am qualified to speak at at the highest level, even though it's one of the most stupid things in the world. But um, I pursued the art, I don't even want to call it graffiti. I pursued the art of abstracting typography at the most passionate, driven, hardcore level possible that a human being can do for well over 20 years. And I definitely got to an I would say like an elite level with it, with the ability to manipulate paint and paint clean and paint things and and like uh I wanna I want to maybe point out to the viewers here, I wasn't just some dude who was out there writing my name on shit. I was pursuing this like a craft, and I put all of my mental chips into this. I wanted to get as good as possible at this strange skill, and it was a very, very big motivating and driving factor in my life for many, many, many, many untold years. And I got to a level with it where I was very, very proud of my accomplishments in that world. And there's a whole lot of stories in that. Like I was a very well-known train painting graffiti artist for many, many years. For decades, I painted thousands and thousands of trains, and I got to a level where I was executing the skill of that at an extraordinarily high level. And I'm very proud of what I did there. I don't know if I'm proud of it, but I did, and I made a lot of friends and I had a lot of cool adventures along the way. And I think I produced a lot of good pieces of artwork. For the people who know me outside of this podcast, for those of you out there listening, I'm sure all the perfect commenters will have some things to say about it. But uh, for the people that know me, most people who knew me, the significant part of my life knew me as like that art guy. So that was something I pursued with a fantastic passion. Maybe we'll talk about that, but it was a different part of my life. Yeah.
HostUm, you also uh have gotten into competitive shooting. Yeah, um, very much so. Talk to me about it. About that journey, uh, where did it where did it start? I mean, obviously, I know you shot and and you know your military background, um, but your competitive thing that's new in the last couple years, I think, right? Yeah, just in the last year. Um, because you had just started, I think, before you came on the podcast last time.
Chris McCoyYeah, I've been doing it like a month the last time I mentioned. I think you won your you just won your first match, right? Yeah, I did win a little local match. This is not a big major match, a little small local match. Um, so uh obviously I was exposed to shooting and um, you know, I was attack bro like everyone else, you know, with like rifle and pistol and stuff like that. But um last year a ranger buddy came and stayed at my house because he was in town for a while, and he was a USPSA masterclass shooter. His name's Jeff, that's all I'm gonna say. And Jeff and I went to a range and I was like, man, I got this new uh P365 with an optic on. I'm having trouble with it. I just uh I just don't think it's zeroed. You know, let's go shoot a little bit at this local indoor range. And he's like, I think your gun's zeroed, I think your gun's fine. Like, I don't know, man. So I handed him this gun and he ripped off a double bill drill, and I'd never seen someone shoot like that. You know, like a bill drill is when you fire six controlled shots at seven yards into an A zone on a USPSA target, and this guy shot this bill drill in probably 1.8 seconds, and he shot two of them back to back in this little cluster, and I'd never seen someone shoot a gun like that. Kind of blew me away. Like, holy and I've been on ranges with the unit and like you know, shot I thought I knew how to shoot. I thought I knew how to shoot until I saw someone who's a master, a literal master ranked member of their craft doing this, and it blew me away. And then a couple days later, we went to a local action range, an outdoor range that had action bays in them where you set them up for practical shooting, where you've got barriers and targets and mixed steel, anywhere from like seven to twenty five meters. And I saw this guy rip through uh a stage, and I'd just never seen anyone shoot a gun like that. And it was a little bit mind-blowing to me. It was like the first time you step on a jujitsu mat, and you're like, I'm a strong guy, I'm fucking ranger, I'm a tough guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you get tooled up by who who was your first experience on a mat?
HostYeah, I got just well, I mean, I I had trained with obviously at my gym, but I traveled one time to a check mat BJJ in Long Beach.
Chris McCoyCheck mat, yeah.
HostAnd uh there was, you know, a bunch of Brazilians in there, and there was a cute female on there, and she was kind of skinny, maybe 130, 40. I'm a big dude. I was a white belt.
Chris McCoyAnd for those of you who don't know, Asher's a big, strong Asher's a freaking donkey.
HostThis is a big man. So I get on this, this, this, this mat, and you know, I I rolled with a couple dudes, and uh I'm like, and she's really smiling. I'm like, all right, man, I got this. Like surely I can, and you know, I we we shook up, and that chick choked me about 14 times in less than three minutes. And that's when I realized BJJ is the great equalizer.
Chris McCoyThere's levels to this, and if you're out there and you've never had your ego horrifically checked by someone, it's a crazy experience. And obviously, I was already used to that from jujitsu, but I'd never had my ego checked with shooting a gun. Shooting a gun, I'm a friggin' army ranger. I know how to shoot a gun better than anybody, you know? Bunch of you guys are watching this, you think you know how to shoot, right? And then I saw someone who's a literal ranked master of their craft show me how someone really shoots a pistol and it blew me away. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. So I think some people, when their egos are checked, they're like, all right, you know what? I don't care about that. But for me, it was just something I had to get into. I just had to throw myself into it. So um I dedicated myself, like now, like USPSA, the United States Practical Shooting Association is a sport. It's a sport, it's a game. It's not tactical, we're not getting shot at by the targets, it's not force on force, it's the practical shooting of a pistol at very, very high speed and accuracy. And it just became something I threw myself into because it's hard, it's unbelievably hard. Um and having my ego checked was the the hard is what makes me want to do it. And like, I'm not the best shooter, you know what I mean? A guy. By the time this airs, I'll be A-class, and like I'm a nobody. I'm I would be coming up on the equivalency of a very baby purple belt in USPSA. But my goal is to get my black belt one day. I don't know how long that's gonna take, but I'm certainly dedicated to the craft, and like um, it's the new fiery passion that I have. That's a strange world. I've met some really awesome people, I've met some real weirdos. Oh, we're diving into it. Yeah, let's do it. I'm here for all of it.
HostYeah, yeah, let's go. Uh first, set it up for people who've never watched a match. What is USPSA? What does a stage actually look like? And what were you doing out there? Um, or what are you doing out there?
Chris McCoyAll right, so USPSA is a very large competitive sports pistol shooting league. There's lots of little leagues out there, there's lots of uh different callings in this sport. You've got Steel Challenge, where you stand in one area and you shoot steel plates for time and speed. You've got IDPA, which is International Defensive Pistol Association, and they've got a very different rule set. I would say the rule sets in these leagues vary as much as, let's say, rugby to football, right? Um so IDPA has one rule set. There's another pistol league out there called PCSL. There's another league that's called GPA, but the one that, and I've shot in all of these little leagues a little bit, but the league that I shoot in the most, the one that's the largest, the one that's the most well known in America, is called USPSA. Now there's an international version of it that's real popular in like Europe and the Philippines and stuff like that, that's called um IPSC IPSIC, but they're essentially the same leagues. They're very, very similar, and they've got slightly different rules, but their rule sets are close enough to be essentially the same sport. Don't don't bag on me, USPSA weirdos. I know you guys are like, I know you guys are crazy about this, but IpsIC and USPSA are very, very similar in aspects of being essentially the same sport. And what that is, is you go to a stage, it's known as a stage, you have a bay in front of you, and this bay has a a wide array of cardboard targets that have zones in them, scoring zones. You can either miss the target, you can hit a D zone, a C zone, or an A zone, you know, D, C, A. And you have a score that's based on your ability to navigate this stage with these barriers and these different problems that are put in front of you, and shoot these targets as accurately and as fast as possible. And at the end of your stage, they tally up your points and then they tally up your time and they divide them together into a number that's called hit factor. And that hit factor can vary. If you're really, really fast but very inaccurate, your hit factor will be lower. If you're very, very accurate, but you're very slow, your hit factor will be lower. So you want to be accurate and fast together. And most people who get into this sport generally fall into one of two camps. You've got some people who are really fast, but they're inaccurate when they start, and you've got people that are very accurate and pretty slow when they start. Generally speaking, military and LEO people come from the background where they tend to be pretty accurate, but pretty slow because this is a sport that's got a lot of very technical, difficult footwork. The difference in USPSA and practical shooting in IpsIC, and I'm just gonna refer to USPSA moving on here out. If you're listening, yes, Ipsy uh exists, but I'm just I shoot USPSA. The difference is things are happening at such high speed that three quarters of a second might be the difference in a win or a loss. Or me shooting five alphas in one Charlie might be the difference between guy one guy shooting four alphas and two Charlies, right? And then you shoot a stage, you go to another stage, and the next stage is completely different. And the next stage is completely different, and the next stage is completely different. So they're constantly throwing problems at you at you that you have to solve. Some of these problems involve you manipulating the gun at blinding speed without moving. Some of them involve you moving all over the place in a very complicated array of targets, shooting them as fast as you can. So it tests the entire array of your pistol skills, your pistoler skills, your ability to draw the gun, your ability to fire the gun, transit the gun, transition the gun, reload the gun, and do it all while moving as fast as you humanly can. And I, like most people, was exposed to this sport very early, and I couldn't believe how fast and how accurately people were shooting. I'd never, I'd never seen anyone shoot like that. There's a reason that the unit and the top soft units in the world, they get top USPSA and Ipsick competitors to come and teach their guys how to shoot. That is a straight up thing, right? Let me do that for a while. They've been doing that for a really long time. When I was in the unit, Jerry Barnhart had won USPSA nationals. And the no, I'm sorry, not the unit. When I was in Ranger Regiment, the Ranger Regiment used to send a couple of guys every year to go train with Jerry Barnhart. They're still doing that nowadays. Like there's guys out there, like, you know, on our side of the house, you might not know Ben Steger or Christian Seiler, some of these superstar names, Brantley Miriam. The unit will get some of these top pistol shooters to come and teach them how to shoot a pistol extremely fast, extremely accurately. And the thing is that these competitions inherently introduce a high degree of stress on you because you've got a timer and a bunch of people watching, and your scores are posted and it's all public. And you keep a rolling score of like your classification. You're you're great. And it's extremely humbling because you're gonna go out there and I guarantee you, some 130-pound office worker is gonna go out there and he's gonna rip through a stage with a stock Glock with no upgrades on it, and he's gonna do it 50% faster than you and 100% more accurate than you. And his hit factor might be three times yours. It's it's and the margins between a grandmaster shooter and even like an A-class shooter are razor thin. So we're talking like if you stand and shoot and you do a classifier, the margins of error might be 0.3 seconds over eight rounds, you know, and like, you know, or 40 points. So it takes a lot of training and a lot of practice to get your body to move a certain way, to get your eyes to react a certain way. And then it might be the difference between me standing and shooting or me just leaning a little bit and standing and shooting. It's a very, very difficult sport. It comes very naturally to some people, it's a lot more difficult to others. I think I'm probably on track to just be like a regular guy. I'm no badass guy. I train with a lot of people, and I want to give a moment to shout out to Detective Colin Giardini. He expected a shout out. Um, Odie, please keep this in here. But shout outs to Colin Giardini, shout outs to Brad Borum, shoutouts to the prodigy Leah Mamobi. Uh, I have I have some friends who've got some unbelievable interesting stories. I these are the primary people that I train and shoot with. And Leah Mamobi is a very interesting kid with a very interesting story. He's a cancer survivor, former Major League Gamer, kind of this oddball kid, you know, son of Nigerian immigrants, who's in John Hopkins medical school now, and he's about to be a grandmaster in this sport. This guy just came out with with a crazy work ethic and ability to ability to transit and fire this gun that's kind of borderline incomprehensible. If you've never shot with competition shooters and you see someone who's shooting at a grandmaster level, it's mind-blowing. Shout outs to Frank Gal, Brandon Alvarez, and especially Carolyn Pace. So those are my people, and I just want to show a lot of love to all the things they've done for me.
HostCombat shooting and competition shooting look identical to an outsider, and they're completely different animals. Coming out of the regiment, what did you have to unlearn to be fast and clean on the stage?
Chris McCoyI really had to unlearn the fact that shooting at USPSA is a game. This is a game. This is a sport, right? Um, it's sort of like uh, I think it's really comparable. You get a lot of people out there in the comments are like, oh, you know, that's pistol, that pistol sport shit. It's not the real world. Targets don't shoot back. Like, yeah, bro, of course the targets don't shoot back. I've been shot at a lot, and I'm not trying to get shot at anymore. Getting shot at sucks, right? Um, but I think it's very akin to the fact you see some people that are like, man, I could go into an MMA gym and mess those dudes up. I've been in a bunch of street fights, right? It's not the same thing, you know? And then you go into a guy, you go into a gym and you you train against a real trained MMA fighter, you're gonna get, you're gonna get, it's not, it's like, it's like child's play to these guys. So people are really training at a high level with the sport. The main thing that I had to unlearn was what we call overconfirmation. And um I had to learn how to trust my hands and eyes to be moving at as fast as humanly possible. I had to learn that my body and my eyes and my hands and my nervous system is capable of operating in a gear speed that's way, way, way higher than I thought, than I thought possible. Like you look at some people like Brandon Alvarez, I have a buddy who's a um former Ranger, former 175 Ranger, hopefully ends up on the show one time. This guy's a five-class grandmaster in USPSA. And when this dude shoots, he looks like a robot. He doesn't look like a human. Like his POV footage is mind-blowing. I've, you know, a lot of people have seen his footage, and certain guys can just do things with a gun that if you're out there and you haven't been exposed to and you haven't seen someone shoot like that, it's incomprehensible.
HostUh, take me to your first match, stepping up to the line as the literal new guy. Did you know you were gonna get murdered?
Chris McCoyNo, I didn't. And I will, you know, I want to say I was extremely fortunate in my first match to shoot with two grandmasters who um USPSA is full of a lot of weirdos and freaks and geeks and strange people. There's good people, bad people. There's all kinds of, it's a slice of Americana, right? But I had the great fortune uh to shoot my very first match with two uh super badass grandmasters, Josh Morgan and Dave Tatoyan. And um those guys are competing on the national level, they compete nationally. Dave Tatoyan is one of the top-ranked guys in carry optics in the country. Josh, I believe, is one of the top-ranked guys in production. There's different classifications of the guns you carry there. So if you own a handgun of any form, there's a classification for you and USPSA. But these guys generally land in two different classifications. And I had the I had the great fortune to be squatted up with these two nationally ranked guys in my very first competition ever, and they were cool as fuck. They showed me the ropes, they answered a lot of my stupid questions, my white belt first day questions. How do I tie my belt? Where do I put my shoes? How do I stand? What do I do? I had no idea what I was doing. And I finished, I believe, 81st out of 82 people. And I got crushed. And these guys were super encouraging. Um, they didn't look down on me, they didn't talk shit. You know, there's a lot of shit talkers in USPSA. There's a lot of there's a lot of people out there who like treat USPSA like it's some sort of like social badge of honor. It's not, it's a game. You know, if you're out there and you're shooting USPSA, you should try and be more like Josh Morgan and Dave Tatoyan, because those guys are leading the way and like Brandon Alvarez and especially Frank Gal. There's some awesome dudes out there. I could I could list a lot of top shooters out there who are great guys and they're always willing to help and they've always they've always got a good attitude. Bobby Martin, Tony Lee, Keanu Sai, you know, like there's awesome guys out there, and those guys are great for the sport. But there's some people, just like in any sport, um, you know, it becomes sort of like their social calling and they put a lot of weight in it that's probably not pursuant to really what it is in their life. But um I was just very fortunate enough to shoot with these two really awesome, super talented, nationally ranked guys, and they were very encouraging and they answered all my stupid questions. And um, especially Josh Morgan, they kind of helped me print on me like, wow, this is like what I want it to be like. And now I see it like this is a skill I want to get good at. And I feel like in the long run of things, like it's a hobby, it's a weird sport, but it is a practical shooting thing. I'm getting, I'm learning to really get good and try and mass try and master the craft of shooting a pistol. And I think that's an awesome skill that a lot of people out there should, you know, should strive to learn for. Really, like, really challenge yourself at another level. It's one thing to go out and shoot at the range, like it's another thing to go out and shoot 20,000 rounds one year. You know what I mean? Shoot 20,000 rounds and really learn how to master your gun and do it under stress and train and practice every day. That sounds really expensive, dude. It was, it is really expensive. If you don't like money, this is what you should do. You should go in your bank, pull out as much money as you can, put in a pile on your floor and burn it. And then that's what it's like shooting USPSA. That's what it's like. Yeah, that's that's what shooting USPSA is. Like now I'm at the point where I started reloading my own ammunition. And I did that out of a practical reason. Like now my cost per round is significantly lower. I had to buy a bunch of equipment and learn a bunch of stuff. But over time, like in this last year, I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot about the craft of shooting a pistol. Like it's really helped me with my fitness. I'm like fully engulfed in the art of like skill development, learning how motor skill function works, learning ecological dynamics, learning constraints-led approach, learning ballistics, learning how to make my own ammo, really learning how to like gunsmith and work on my own guns. It's been a craft that's like, for me personally, it's been really good. And like I try and stay out of the social stuff. And like uh, I've made some awesome friends along the way, like, you know, Colin and Liam, those are my homies. I'll be with bros with those guys forever, you know.
HostWe were talking about yesterday. There's this kind of like two worlds, right? The tac bro world and then like the USPSA. And there is some overtwine, but you know, there's there's some hate between the two. Yeah, speak to that a little bit.
Chris McCoyYou know, that hatred in USPSA between the TAC bros, I'm gonna tell you all out there something. As someone who's lived deeply in both of those worlds, all that hate exists right here, right? And when you do that, it goes away, right? Like it's it's so ridiculous. There's a lot of very opinionated people online.
HostSo you just like straight social media bullshit.
Chris McCoyYeah, it's social media bullshit. Like it really just comes down to the fact if you're a if you're a person who really enjoys shooting firearms and you want to get better at doing that, then you should look at competition shooting because it's your fastest route to get better at shooting a firearm. And I think if you're out there and you're an enthusiast with pistol shooting, you owe it to yourself to at least be exposed a little bit to the world of competition shooting because at worst it's gonna expose deficiencies in your motor ability. And at best, it's gonna put you down a path where you where you're gonna learn to like master your weapon. And I, you know, the A, the unit practices pet practical shooting, you know, devgrew practices practical shooting. 75th Ranger Regiment practices practical shooting. It's like a, you know, this is being done at the highest level. So attack bro or not, you know, it's just is the pinnacle art of the skill. I think I used the uh, I think you used the analogy the other night, right? Like everybody thinks they can drive good, right? And you got F1 drivers. You're like, oh man, well, you know what? I can whip my car, drive, and then Max Verstappen shows up, right? You're like, well, this is a different animal. This guy is driving a vehicle in a way that you can't comprehend, right? So, like, it's just the highest expression of the art of shooting a pistol. And um, I think if you're out there and you're a pistol lover, I think you owe it to yourself to at least look into the world of competition shooting and learn how to practice and you know, learn how to drive fire and get better at using your weapon. Talk to me about the gear, man. What are you shooting? What are you carrying? Um, I've kind of done what a lot of new competition shooters do where they kind of float between different platforms and they land on one. Um, I started on Glock. I have two Glock 17s. One of them is completely raced out and set up for competition, the other one's totally bone stock. And then um, for a while, I was like, wow, I need a competition pistol. I need a super badass gun, right? So I got a CZ Shadow 2. CZ makes fantastic guns. That's a double-action, single-action hammer-fired gun. And then I made a really stupid impulse purchase and I went out and spent an unbelievable amount of money on a super custom raced out 52-ounce steel hand-fitted masterpiece arms DS9 2011 that cost a freaking unbelievable amount of money. And I've shot maybe 50 rounds through it, you know. And I along the way, I just learned like it's not the gun. It's really not the gun. People are very, very territorial and they're very passionate and they're very emotionally attached to what gun works, what gun works for them. Even in USPSA, oh my God. You've got the Glock Bros, you've got the 2011 guys, you've got the CZ guys. It really doesn't matter. In the end, if you spend enough time on a handgun, you're gonna find out the gun that fits you, and that's usually tied to its geometry. And there's some stuff to do with the trigger, you can change the trigger, but generally speaking, Your eyes and hands are going to land on and prefer a gun of a certain weight and a certain geometry. And among those guns, certain firearms, there's I'm just going to say this right now. There's no gun that's better than any other gun. There's just certain guns that are proven to work under extremely high round counts, right? You might have whatever gun you have at home and you love that gun, and that's awesome, right? But has that gun been vetted for 50,000 rounds? Has that optic optic, was that optic gonna work 80,000 rounds in the lifespan of that gun? So that's part of the challenge. That's part of the allure, you know. Right now, I've landed on Glock. I've kind of gone in a big circle. I went from Glock, I went from shadow, I went from 2011, I went back to shadow, and I've kind of landed back on Glock because I just realized finally, after many, many thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds, there's little tweaks between the different guns that I prefer and I don't prefer. I'm a little bit quicker side to side and out of the holster on the Glock. I'm a little more accurate at distance with the shadow. The 2011, I like having the platform it's a little bit more platform-y for me. But ultimately, at the end of the day, everyone's mechanics and everyone's body is different. So, like um, look, you and I are shaped different. Me and Liam are shaped different, me and Colin are shaped different. Everyone lands on a firearm that fits their body the best. But I think the main thing that people look at is reliability over a long period of time. And certain platforms are more reliable than others. Glocks like the AK-47 of pistols, man. I think it's more like the Toyota Tacoma of guns. You know what I mean?
HostLike, there's nothing wrong with the Tacoma. Hey, but you know what? Yeah, but I'm saying the AK-47, I mean, bro, that that gun's lasted the test of time since it was invented.
Chris McCoyBut look, man, there's a reason people buy Rolexes and jet skis and shit like that because it makes them happy, right? Like you can wear a G Shock or a Timex and it's gonna tell time just as good, probably better than a Rolex or you know, but like some people just like having that thing.
HostI always laughed at the gun conversation. I've carried a gun my entire adult life. Yeah, maybe for work. And uh, you know, I I would constantly get asked by people, even in the industry, but outside of my industry, um, you know, what what what do you think about this gun or that gun? And I'm I've always been the same way. I'm like, it's a hammer, dude. Like, how do you want your hammer to fit? You want a big hammer, you want a metal hammer, you want to I but I would always encourage people like, don't spend $2,000 on a gun and $500 on training. Don't do what I did.
Chris McCoyYeah, buy a $500 gun and get $2,000 worth of training. Yes. That and you know, I had that masterclass guy tell me from day one, don't go out and buy another gun. God, Chris, as your friend, as a USPSA masterclass shooter, don't go out and buy a new gun. Promise me you're not gonna buy a new gun. Cool, man. I won't. The second he walked out of the door, I went up to the shop and I bought a new gun, right? Because I'm finally at the point in my life where I got a little bit of disposable income. I got a little bit of cash. Yeah.
HostDoes everybody normally shoot nine mils?
Chris McCoyWell, the USPSA has what's known as major and minor. And minor is the by far most people shoot minor, which is nine millimeter. Major can be 40, 45, you know, nine mil, nine major. There's all kinds of different um calibers. Generally speaking, the vast majority of people shoot nine millimeter. Again, there's no one good gun, but certain guns are proven over time to have a much longer lifespan and hold up and they have more reliable triggers under very high load. What do you uh what are you carrying for gear? Just battle belt or so there's different rigs you can carry. And again, for those of you who don't know about USPSA, this doesn't go out to the experience USPSA guys. There's nothing here I'm gonna tell you guys that you don't know in already. But if you're interested in competition shooter, don't be afraid to go in there. All you need is a belt with a holster that covers the trigger, right? It can be appendix, it can be concealment, it can be on your hip, but you need a reliable holster that covers the trigger and will retain the gun. It doesn't have to be a retention holster, but it has to have some form of positive retention. It doesn't have to have a clip that you turn on, it can be a kydex. A lot of people use kydex or we call them buckets, but a gun that's got some form of retention, and you need to have at least two magazines on your body. Those magazines can be in your pockets, it really doesn't matter. There's nothing against the rules. But generally speaking, people fall into two camps. A lot of people will shoot duty or like essentially work guns or tactical rigs. You see a lot of them. But the people who are a little bit more on the gamer side, and that's that includes myself, I started with a tactical rig, and I ended up going into a gamer rig. And a gamer rig is generally something that's a lot lighter, and it's designed to allow you to access those magazines extremely quickly. So my magazine holders, I have two plastic ones and I have one that's a magnet, it's a rare earth magnet. So my magazines are on my body and they're canted, so I can just snatch them very quickly, right? In a gunfight or a tack bro scenario, or as a police officer, you would never carry your weapon in a gamer rig. That's why it's called a gamer rig. It's for the game, it's for the sport of USPSA. But those are the two camps you've got tactical, everyday workwear style rigs, or a gamer rig. And um, that's another thing. It's kind of interesting to learn what rig and what gear works for you. Um, but if you're out there and you own a holster and you have some way to carry magazines on your body, go up and sign up for a local competition. And honestly, you're gonna have a lot of fun because you get to run around circles and shoot guns. How do people find out about it? Just go to the website, yeah. There's a big overarching national website called Practice Score. Practice, not practice, but practice score. And use that, and you can use filters and you can find matches in your area, and you can filter them by types of matches. If you can't find a USPSA match in your area, I think IDPA is a great, uh great option too. Like USPSA bros out there are gonna talk shit about IDPA, but it doesn't matter. You're still out there and you're still competing with a firearm. Awesome, man. Anything else on uh shooting that we missed? Um no, I don't think so. I will, you know what, I'll say this. I'm a big proponent of this. It doesn't matter if you're shooting competition, it doesn't matter if you're a police officer, it doesn't matter if you're just an enthusiast planking cans in your backyard. But if you're a very opinionated gun person online, you owe it to yourself to practice and dry fire with your gun as often as you can. Because the difference between someone who dry fires 10, 15 minutes a day, a couple times a week, and somebody that doesn't is a gulf that cannot even be measured, right? So if you're out there and you're a gun enthusiast and you're a pistol enthusiast, at the very least you owe it to yourself to practice and dry fire with that gun.
HostWell said, dude. Um last time you were here, we didn't cover this at all. But you spent the last six or seven years um working in the drone industry, future concepts, actually for Department of Defense, now Department of the War. For the army. Yeah. Yeah, for the army. What was it? Kind of what were you doing? I mean, to the point that you can talk about, and there's some things that we can't talk about on here. Um but what's it like to be, I mean, so you were in like the drone industry before the Ukraine war. Yes. What was it like before that war as far as what the drone industry was doing? Um, was it as robust as it is now before that war, or were we still doing advanced stuff aggressively?
Chris McCoySo the drone industry has changed significantly in the last six years. I was with U.S. Army Combat Capabilities Developmental Command, known as DEVCOM, and there's subsidiaries within DEV COM known as Army Research Laboratories, Army's Futures Command, C5 ISR. Army has a bunch of science labs and technology labs that are dedicated solely to the craft of advancing the technology in all different disparate avenues of approach. I worked in the drone industry, and more than that, I worked in the drone sensing industry. But I worked for an army research laboratory working on drone sensor technology. And before the Ukraine war, I would say that the I wouldn't say that the drone industry was in the dark ages, but I would say it was still in what I would consider its comparative infancy just to six years from now. Just to six years ago.
HostYeah, and if I go back, I worked at a place where drones were becoming new. It was in the LE industry. And, you know, I was working for the federal government, and we couldn't even get drones because we couldn't use Chinese drones, which, you know, the DGIs were good. Permissions. Yeah, and there was no, like there at the time, man, there wasn't a lot of options, and the options that we had in the states were massively expensive.
Chris McCoyAbsolutely. That's now since changed significantly. There has been, so the Ukrainian war sent a shock wave, a seismic change through the world of drone and UAS technology. It's kind of funny, like now you just get online and it's like, you know, you pull up videos of drones doing all kinds of things overseas, and they're what much more prevalent. If you think back about it, six, seven years ago, it was completely different, right? So the Ukraine war sent shock waves through the drone industry. And the US Army has every bit of motivation to stay ahead of that power curve. So they ended up pouring tons of money into the drone industry. Um what I can say is I worked in the like the permission side, right? Well, I worked in a lot of different areas. I worked in the field testing and the permission side of the house, and I worked in the new emergent technology research part of it as well. I was a liaison, so the army hires some of the best and brightest engineers and scientists to develop this technology, put it on drones, give it to soldiers so they can test. And I was that kind of middle guy who spoke the language of the military and worked with the scientists to set up field testing environments as and also work with like the FAA and permissions and authorizations so we can fly these drones. One of the big changes, and this sounds boring and like not super interesting, but it's actually seismic in the drone world. Um there used to be a huge amount of red tape in flying a drone. There used to be a huge amount of permissions and authorizations and frequency managements involved in like, hey, we're in the army, want to fly a drone around, we want to do a thing with it. Well, if you want to do that, you got to get tons and tons and tons of obfuscating paperwork through all these channels, all these disparate channels. And for a lot of you out there who work in the federal government or LEO, or even if you work in big-time white-collar business, right? Uh Asher and I were talking about there's people out there who kind of just exist to like fuck that process and make it harder for people.
HostYeah, dude.
Chris McCoyIt's crazy. I don't know where these people propagate, but they're like rule sticklers and they only care to like go over paperwork with a fine-tooth comb and like, oh, you guys can't go fly this $80,000 drone this weekend because uh the spacing wasn't aligned on this PDF, right? These are I don't know where these people come from, but they're out there. And hopefully, they're the same type of people that leave our comments, our negative comments are into it. They really are. Well, no, well, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of Keith's and Karens out there in the professional world. I'm I mean, honestly, I bet like, you know what? Let's go back to the trades, right? I mean, if you're in trades, how many, how many fallops have there been with like inspections and shit like that? There's just people who live to be like real, they're like the HOA of like the business world. But those people propagate in huge numbers in the army. I can only imagine what it's like at the federal government level. The federal government level, and you're trying to fly a drone around and on a military base doing weird stuff. Oh my God, the people just come out of the woodwork. But, and this is not a pro-political message whatsoever. After the Ukraine war really blew up and we were really exposed to what's going on over there, the current Secretary of Defense, about two years ago, a year and a half, like uh maybe a year ago, he put out an executive order that made a sweeping change to all that, right? This executive order came out and said, hey, look, we recognize that there is an unbelievable amount of ridiculous red tape that is obfuscating our ability to employ, work with, research, and develop drone technology. And this technology, this, this, these authorizations are really doing nothing but hindering the process. It's just paperwork, it's fugazi paperwork. So they put in sweeping changes to the drone authorizations, and now it's much, much easier for commanders at the battalion level, the battalion level and below, to get those drones into the hands of their operators and work on them and test it on because it's new emergent technology. It's not, I would say technologically, drones are still in their infancy. We think about drones and we think about ISR and we think about Reapers and things like that, but like the handhelds, the class one, the class two drones, class one, group one drones that soldiers are using on the battlefield, that technology, the US Army decided, hey, we get we need to get out of this right now. And that's been a sweeping change. Drones are proliferating in a huge, huge number. You know, I've you know, I've done orders, I can't say for who and what and what platforms, but I've I've I've been involved in procurements where units were ordering hundreds of drones. You know, not like three or four we're gonna experiment on. This unit needs three hundred of these drones, right? Make it happen. We need to stand up a drone operator course. Well, all right, we need that done in three months. You know what I mean? And now people think about armed drones flying around blowing people up, and that's kind of like um that's one of the things you can do with drones, but really the the real technology in drones is moving towards extremely high levels of very highly capable sensing on drones. That's what the army cares about.
HostDo you are you guys were you guys seeing um you're not working in there, Morton, but were you seeing a lot of AI autonomous technology?
Chris McCoyYes. Kind of I would say not AI. We're not talking about the AI boogeyman, right? We're not talking about Terminator T1000 flying drone swarms out and doing stuff without human control. The main thing that AI is being used for, autonomated technology, is to highly advance the abilities of these drones to detect people and vehicles in all manners of obscure or occluded or difficult or GPS denied environments. That's about as that's about as far down as I want to go into it. But the army realizes that um putting the bomb on the drone is kind of like that's not as important as having the drone be able to do a lot of things on its own and find things and determine things and not make end user kinetic decisions, but figure out where things are, or tell itself to go somewhere and find something or someone.
HostWhat um what did you see change the most between pre-Ukraine and post-Ukraine?
Chris McCoyUrgency, the sense of urgency. Um, I think drones were looked at as sort of like um, yeah, one day this will be important, but the mindset really shifted to like this is important now. This is the thing we're doing now.
HostI heard you kind of tell it when we were prepping, even when we've talked recently, the whole internet is watching the wrong thing. That to the army, it's it's just a platform to put a sensor on. Why is everybody fixated on the bomb and not the other aspects, you think? Well, I think that um or do you think that America's not necessarily fixated on the bomb because we're not in Ukraine. We haven't used them. No, we're certainly fixated on the bomb.
Chris McCoyBut I think it's really, you know, like they think about the bullet hitting the person, right? From a snipe, let's say like you've got a DMR or a sniper rifle, right? You think about the bullet traveling and hitting the guy, right? You don't think about all the science that goes into the ballistics, making the barrel, making the optic, making the range finder, calculating the wind, calculating the conditions. There's a that that bomb is just the last step in a long chain of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of things that have to be worked on.
HostUm, those viral Ukraine first-person video grenade drops, everyone shares. You call that the kindergarten thinking, a caveman with a stick. It's killing four million dollar tanks with a four hundred dollar drone. How is the caveman or how is it that the caveman is not winning?
Chris McCoyWell, I don't want to say, you know, what that was in a personal conversation. Uh look, I don't want to say that there's anything caveman-like about putting a bomb on a drone, right?
HostThose are kind of is when you consider that like uh like a M1A1 tank or you know, some multi-million dollar piece of I mean, because we're you know, you look at our tanks, but even the tanks, you know, that the Ukrainians were killing with the Russian tanks, uh, you know, a T 80 or something. I mean, those are multi-million dollar machines. Yes, they shoot around, but there's also a ton of technology that's involved in those things. So for something so small, nimble, and cheap to be able to take out a multi-million dollar, what we would consider a highly advanced.
Chris McCoyWell, the cost-benefit analysis of it was hugely beneficial, uh, you know, hugely motivating the military. And it definitely wasn't the caveman thing. That was just like a colloquialism amazing conversation. But what happened was those Ukrainian forces made do and they were field expedient and they were very smart about maximizing something in a in a time of dire need, right? And the army realized, like, wow, if they can do that with this, what can we do with this? Right. So there's a huge push inside of the army to super advance drones into the far future, not two years from now, not five years from now. We're talking 10, 20 years from now. This is like this is emergent technology the way that night vision changed warfare as we know it.
HostYou know, we talked something a little bit about the killer robot debate, right? You mentioned it, Terminator, um, you know, autonomous things with no human decisions. What what what concerns you about that move? I mean, because we're not far from there. Uh, you know, I think if you look at the anthropic debate, you know, the Department of War got into with Anthropic, Claude pulled out a lot of shit talking going between the government because they didn't want to give serpent certain capabilities to either target Americans or but even some of the autonomous firearms technology. What's your thoughts on that?
Chris McCoyUm, first off, I want to make it very clear. Again, I'm a nobody, I'm a low-level grunt who worked in Army Research Laboratory for a long time. I think, and look, my opinions do not necessarily reflect those of the Department of Defense whatsoever, right? I'm I'm a bro. Comments, have at it, right? Drive engagement, right? I think the main threat is the fact that this technology is so accessible and it's so cheap. And a lot of the technology we use is commercial off the shelf that it makes it very highly accessible, very easy to use by the belligerents of our nation, whether those be peer forces or whether they be asymmetric forces or whether they be internal belligerents. I think that's one of the huge, huge pro huge worries that the Department of Defense has. It makes if you give everyone a stick, now everyone has a stick. And that's the main thing, right? So we have to get far ahead of it, far ahead of it, far ahead of it, right? Like, you know, when we had stealth technology on aircraft, right? Stealth technology was a game changer, but if you think about it, on the macro level, like your average college kid can't go out and build a stealth aircraft, right? But you get two or three college kids together, they can build a very, very capable like sensing delivery platform. A highly autonomous, highly capable sensing kinetic delivery platform. And that's what the Department of Defense is worried about. Because if three college kids can do it, now what do we do when we've got you know an asymmetric group of people who are probably pretty well funded, right? So that's the main thing. It's well, you're seeing it.
HostI mean, if you look south of Mexico, the cartels are absolutely already employing drones, yeah. And you know, that technology's coming from malign actors, you know.
Chris McCoyI'll just say this there is technology that you can go and buy on Amazon right now that with the right people, you can make an uh you can cluge parts together to make a very, very capable UAS delivery platform. Yeah, and that's well known. That's not op sec, that's like that's out there, you know. The Department of Defense is working on this.
HostWell, I think this this most recent conflict with Iran, you know, the the Irans continue to be able to send Shahid drones very far, very accurate, and inflict real damage. And I mean, we've seen it. I mean, there's still we're still arguing with these people. And you look at a nation our size and our military might between us and Israel, and you know, they're still, I mean, we bombed the daylights out of them, you know what I mean? And they're still sending drones. They pushed two aircraft carriers that those aircraft carriers had to get way offshore.
Chris McCoyYou know, and now you're now this isn't all doom and gloom, right? Let's you know, let's not paint a picture here of like doom and gloom, and um certainly not doom.
HostMcGloom, but I mean, we just sat here and talked about war for hours. It's a real threat. Conflict is changing. Yeah.
Chris McCoyI think the face of warfare as we know it has changed, but I do think that um and that's literally happened in the last couple years.
HostYeah, absolutely. I mean, we just got rid of I think 11 uh all all of the U.S. Army's aircav units, helicopter units are now gone.
Chris McCoyYeah.
HostUm, I there is no, I mean, it's all replaced by drones. I have a friend, his son joined the infantry. They've got drone battalions now.
Chris McCoyUm and so drones in every squad. Yeah. You know, it's I think drone technology is gonna change modern warfare, the way that the maximum machine gun changed modern warfare. Yeah, yeah. You know, the way that night vision, the way that the proximity fuse changed war modern warfare. Every several generations, a piece of technology is gonna come that changes the face of warfare ever.
HostYeah, and I always think about it just from the logistical level, right? Now you're fielding this technology, these take either radio or GM, you know, GPS signals. Now you're flooding the air. Um, now there's more things to coordinate. It's uh it's it's interesting just to consider what the battlefield.
Chris McCoyThere's a lot of dirty signal in the air.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyThat's a great way to put it surrounds us all the time. And navigating that and making sense of all that is a I I'll say this. The army, for all its infinite wisdom, is a lot smarter than I think people think. And the army is looking way down the road, and the army, not the army, the department of defense, is concerned with a lot of these problems already.
HostYou know, one of the things you you you mentioned was the honest worry is drones get get faster, the human decision shrinks below human reaction time. You know, shoot, shoot a straight. Can we actually keep a human in the loop in a real peer fight? Or is that Yes. Or is that a comforting lie?
Chris McCoyNo, yes, absolutely.
HostThe systems are designed to keep a human in the loop. Do you have any concern um, like in the future or you know, with your views behind the scene that AI could creep in and it could become an issue?
Chris McCoyI honestly, and this is a hot take, I'm sure you're gonna get excoriated in the comments, but that's having been someone who worked in the military drone industry, that's not a concern that I have. Because there's so I mean, I, you know, I worked in army research laboratories in their drone division, right? There are human checks at every point in that. Um, I know you guys are gonna tell me what I was actually doing in my job or call me a chill or whatever the hell. I'm just a regular dude, but there are humans in every loop of that. The the thing is to make decision making easier for people.
HostUm, why while you were in the drone lab, was there talks about what our next conflicts could be and how drones could be employed in that conflict?
Chris McCoyHonestly, not really.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyUh I think that's because the face of warfare is ever changing. There's threats all over the place. I mean, if you just look at it right now, SOF is involved. I mean, I'm not I SOF is involved in countries that you we wouldn't even believe. Like, I know our guys are out there doing stuff in countries where if you knew what country they were in, you'd be like, what? Thought that was a vacation spot.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyRight. But um there's no one thing. I think the one thing that I one thing that stands out to me when I was there was like uh the proliferance of fiber optic cable with drones, that became something that came directly out of the out of the Ukraine war.
HostYeah, I was completely ignorant of that until a couple months ago. I didn't realize they were flying these fiber optic things.
Chris McCoyThat's been around for a long time, probably longer than you think. Um, so that's something that came directly out of that conflict that that is affecting like research policy and stuff like that. That's an example that's one example, but these things are not like theater. Um these are these things are theater agnostic. You know what I mean? So just like terminal ballistics is theater agnostic, right? So like you might think like, well, we're in Afghanistan, we're doing a lot of shooting in terrain. How does that differ from shooting in in the jungles in Colombia? It's not, it's theater agnostic, you know? Yeah.
HostChina makes about 90% of the world's drones on almost all the batteries. Even our American drones run on Chinese parts from inside the system. Is that a manufacturing problem or a will problem? You think we can catch up?
Chris McCoyUm, there that is a topic that there are parts of that topic I specifically can't speak on. The Department of Defense is very aware of that. And we have capabilities. We have our like China does a lot of stuff. I'll just say this, we do a lot of stuff too. That's I I really that's something I don't want to touch on too much, but we're we're a hell of a lot more capable than we're a hell of a lot more capable than you might think, right?
HostUkraine and Russia re-spend their drone tactics and firmware on a weekly cycle faster than any acquisition system can move, which has kind of been an issue with the American military. Was an issue. Really? Yeah, that's gonna be was my question. Can the American military even fight at that speed or have we removed those stop gaps?
Chris McCoyYeah, that was that was what what the drone dominance XORD was designed to do was in one sweeping. I I I would venture to say I didn't have a long enough career in the um the federal authorizations level. Maybe some people out there spent longer time than I did, but that was a uh massive, titanic, seismic change in which those those stopgaps were largely eliminated in the drone world. The urgency of getting stuff into people's hands and emerging the technology just changed the face of drone development in a way that's like unbelievable. I would I would compare it maybe to like the space race in the 60s or something like that. I don't know. It's just in a day, in a day, literally a day, this XORD came out, the drone dominance XOR, I think it was 3852, XORD 38. I might be wrong, but you guys will tear me up in the comments. But the drone, the drone dominant, the drone dominance executive order came out and changed all of that in a blink of an eye.
HostUm, the Pentagon is standing up counter drone lasers at five U.S. bases this year, and Chinese drones keep showing up over American installations. Is the drone war all already here, or is that something that was ever talked about? Because there's been all this, like, again, man, you don't know if it's alien craft or whatever. Like New Jersey had a big thing going where these drones and craft were showing up. Um, can you speak to any of that?
Chris McCoyUm I'll say this there's a lot more incursions in civilian infrastructure than than you may be aware of. Oh, I believe it. Yeah.
HostI mean, we there's a whole foreign adversary thing going, especially in the intelligence community.
Chris McCoyBecause again, like if drones were out there blowing up stuff, you would know about it, right? Yeah. But there's a lot more drone incursions than you may think. A lot more on the civilian side.
HostYeah, and you read about them quite often, right? Like there's a power, a couple, there's an oil industry hit, oil lab hit in Houston. Um, there's been power plants.
Chris McCoyIt's uh Well, a lot of those drones aren't being used to blow stuff up. A lot of those drones are being used to collect information.
HostWhat's the one drone capability, ours or theirs, theirs being a foreign adversary that the public has no idea is already coming? I guess you probably don't want to talk about ours. So what what about foreign drone capabilities that maybe people aren't aware of?
Chris McCoyI think this is pretty well public knowledge, but the emergent technology in drones that I can speak of, I'm probably being more obfuscating this than I need to be, but I'm just trying to keep my bases covered because I, you know, because my job and stuff like that. But the capability of drones to turn themselves on and go to a place and identify a thing and then tell someone that they've identified that thing is moving at light speed. And that is a lot more important than the FPV drone dropping a bomb on a tank. The ability to hide a drone somewhere, have that drone live there in quiet for a long, long, long time, and then have some means to turn that drone on and have that drone go up and fly and look at something and identify it and mark it and tell someone that it saw it, that technology is advancing at a light speed. That is something that really concerns people.
HostYeah.
Chris McCoyYeah.
HostUh by your own admission, you you try never to watch the Ukraine drill kill footage. What does the man who who worked in an armed drone technology refuse to watch the drones? Like what what is that?
Chris McCoyIs it just because it's the war thing or I don't want to see people die anymore, man. I've seen a lot of people die. I've seen people, you know, it's like war pouring out, you know. I think when you see somebody die up close, I mean, I've some I've seen somebody die media away more than once. I just have no desire in my personal life, all the things that I've been through. I don't want to see people.
HostI just didn't know yeah, I didn't know if there was a drone like you, you you stand out for the drones. I understand the word.
Chris McCoyYou know, it's like I feel like it's like I don't want to make it on that level, but it's kind of like eating junk food, you know, or it's kind of like you know, taking shots or something like that. Why introduce something like you would you would probably make a decision not to introduce something into your body that's gonna make you feel bad afterwards? I just try and not introduce that. And and you know, you guys might say, oh, well, you know, you're being uh, you know, you're being blind to the realities of war. Like, bro, I've lived the realities of war. I've seen a lot of people die. And I personally, me, just me, just Chris, I don't have the desire to see people die anymore, man. That's just me.
HostYeah. Um the Ukraine war is something we're about to get heavily involved in as a platform. Uh the the human toll has been egregious on both sides. Right um, and we have plans to travel.
Chris McCoyI have a question for your listeners, actually. I'm sure there's uh fire and EMS and police out there, and you yourself, right? Have you ever been on an accident scene and seen a human being that was torn up? Oh yeah. Yeah. You want to see that again? No. Right. You know what I mean? Now, if there were a phenomenon in which there were like uh maybe let's say a channel where you were seeing the world's worst car accidents, right? And they go in and film it and show the bodies torn up and stuff, would you watch that? No, but I mean I still watch war movies and you could articulate the movie. A movie's different than seeing it actually happen, right? Yeah, that's true. That's just me, and I'm just talking to the listener. That's just me personally, you know. If you like that stuff and you want to watch that, go for it, man. But me personally, I've made that decision. I've seen people die and I don't want to see it again. That's just me.
HostI watched that warfare movie. Actually, my wife was taking us.
Chris McCoyYeah, I went and saw that in the theater.
HostI got sick to my stomach. It was that was pretty close.
Chris McCoyYou know what's crazy? I was in Ramadi when that was happening. I was actually in Ramadi in that town while that was happening, right? And kudos to those guys. Those guys are SEALs, you know what? And those guys were very brave and they did the right thing.
HostAnd like um that but that movie got warfare pretty uh Yeah, that uh let's shill.
Chris McCoyLet's let's be shills. Oh man, eight oh by the way, eight A24 check, the A24 check cached. I'm just kidding. But that that movie was a that movie was a tough watch. That was a good movie. Um a good accurate depiction of and nothing can prepare you for combat, but that was a that was a gritty raw movie. That was. But me personally, I love war movies, right? But they're movies, you know what I mean? For me personally, I don't want to see someone die in reality because like, you know, hey, you everyone out there has their own opinion on things.
HostYeah, that whole Ukraine war. I mean, it it's just that entire region, that's just a sticky topic to begin with. Um, you know, there's obviously I always say there's two sides to war, but I think there's more. I think there's geopolitical, there's underlying financial motivations, but all I can't, you know, I can't get past just a massive amount of loss of life. I mean, the some of the videos Russian and Ukraine of these dudes getting, you know, killed, it's just it seems senseless and brutal. And yeah, it goes back to what I said earlier.
Chris McCoyI mean, war brings out the the most violent parts of the hey, and in the comments and the watchers, if you're really into those videos of dudes getting blown up and torn to pieces, I'm just I'm just curious. Like, what is the allure? You know? You think it's badass? I don't know. For me, like, hey, maybe you're tougher than me. Maybe you think that shit's cool as fuck, you know? And if that's what you think is cool as fuck, hell yeah, man. Go for it. It's free contract.
HostBut you but if you look at us as a culture, you look at video games, TV, like we've been desensitized that, but for those of us that have seen Death Up Close, it has a different meaning. When you've never seen somebody die, but you've grown up your whole life watching it and playing video games. I I I think I think some people are numb to it. I think it's different for us. When you've I mean it's it's one thing to watch somebody on TV, it's one thing to watch somebody take their last breath in front of you.
Chris McCoyYeah, I mean, should I play games? I play, yeah. I'm yeah, I'm I'm getting crazy on Ghost Recon uh Ghost Recon right now. You know, I play Ghost Recon Wildlands right now, and that's a crazy violent game. But to me, that's a video game, dude. Yeah, you know, it's not the same, it's animated.
HostWell, as we kind of uh close out this this podcast, I just have a couple of questions, man. Just because you're you're articulate, you've had a lot to say. Like I remember in your first podcast, we talked about what makes a good dude. Um, you've had a lot of like thoughts on leadership. Um and so I have a couple questions in those veins. I mean, sure. You've now told me about a sadist who is a genius, a leader everyone loved who stopped a patrol to look at a waterfall, and a a colonel who saved your career by by saying almost nothing when you were at Ranger School after Tillman died. What separates a leader men will die for from the one they'll just obey?
Chris McCoyI've been around a lot of leaders in a lot of austere conditions, and I think that really the thing that speaks to leadership is someone who shows in whatever way they show it that they actually care for real about the people around them. It doesn't have to be some grand show of affection. It doesn't have to be gifts or like pats on the head, but there's just some people out there who lead by example, and a further level of that is they actually show care for the people around them. They actually have some form of human empathy in them that enables them to want the other people around them to be better.
HostYeah, it's very articulate. I mean, you've been the brand new private getting humil humiliated, and the senior ranger making the hasty plan when a man went down. What did you learn about leadership from being on both ends of that?
Chris McCoyI think what I learned was that you know, I was a confluence of the guys around me. You know, for John Owens, for all his hardcorness was an unbelievable influence on me. Because I'll say this John Owens always made the right decision under pressure. Dave Ootlao always made the right decision under pressure. Eric Godick always made the right decision under pressure. Kellett Serre, got man, Kellett, you know how I feel about you, man. That day that you dragged me out under that helicopter and you put me on that AC unit when everyone was shooting at us. And he said to me, Hey, hey man, I need you to care, I need you to lock down the backside. I need you to lock down the backside. Like, I got you, I got you. And he he just he's like, I know you do. Like those three words was all I needed to hear in that moment. Everyone was shooting at us, the birds are flying overhead, I'm terribly injured. He's about to run into the gunfire and and you know, assault a house. And he needed somebody to watch the backside.
HostIs that what you jack your back up?
Chris McCoyYeah, yeah. And like he just said three words to me. I know you do. That's leadership to me. When the whole world is going sideways, he took a just a split second in his inherent who he was to reassure me. You know, like real leadership at the highest level, real leaders care about their people.
HostIs great leadership something you can teach, or is it gravity? Either a man has it or he doesn't.
Chris McCoyI think the qualities that make a great leader are somewhat inherent, and they can be learned and fostered by other people. S out there, I know that you're doing the right thing and you're fostering that in your men. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna take this when this is done. I'm gonna send this to you're out there and you're you're in 275 right now and you're leading men the right way. Man, I wish the regiment had 500 of kills right now. Right? Because that's someone who is the example of how to take care of your people. He's the primary example that people looked up to. He keeps his body right, he keeps his mind right, and he lives by a fucking code, and he takes care of his people, and you can do those things. And we need more people like that.
HostYeah, and I think good leadership breeds good leadership. I think the problem when you have bad leadership is it sets up generations of bad leaders, and then when the organization tries to right that ship, it takes a long time, man. Um and so I agree completely with you. Yeah. Um, you know, you've had some interesting patterns in your life that I've I've gotten to know about you, and you have this guardian angel pattern. Over and over, the exact right person showed up the exact right moment in your life: a leader, a judge, a cop, a cousin, a sea captain. When you line them all up, what do you make of it? Luck? I know you're not religious, universe, or something you were doing to earn it, God. I don't know.
Chris McCoyWell, for me, I think I've been unbelievably lucky for sure. And I also think that um I've looked at other people in my life. I'm not the only guy who's come from tough backgrounds, man.
HostYou know, had plenty of them on this podcast.
Chris McCoyYeah. Louis Seif. Bro, Lou Walker, you're out there like you've had some unbelievable strokes of luck in your life, too, right? You know, there's other no no one becomes successful without unbelievable strokes of luck. But again, and I think I mentioned this before, I think if you just it's very simple. I think it's a mathematical, statistical numbers thing. If you're constantly making decisions that are in line with like curated good social behavior, you're always gonna get breaks. Whereas if you're always acting in an antisocial way, you're gonna get less breaks. And over the course of your life, the course of your life is made up of hundreds and thousands of little human moments with people. You can't completely isolate yourself, you can't forge your way all the way on your own. Being a human in the world today involves interacting with other humans constantly, day after day after day after day. It's a good example. Like, man, if I came on this podcast and I acted like a prick, or I said something nasty to your daughter, you know, or I just did something that was like socially shitty, this relationship that you and I have would dry up. And who knows what that could turn into down the future, right? There would be no podcast on it.
HostRight.
Chris McCoyYou know, and it's just over and over and over and over again. And I think as an adult, you kind of, if you, if you're someone who thinks like that as an adult, you become more aware of it. But I think just through my life, I've been somebody who happened to just kind of care about those kinds of things. And over life, like I know that people see me as a good dude. You know what I mean? Like, you can have, you know, some of these people who've been influential on me took a huge risk on me knowing that I was like a fuck up and like I made all these stupid mistakes and I had all these dumb things I did. But they took a chance on me because they knew I was a good dude. Marcus Hull took an unbelievable chance on me because he knew I was a good dude. And I wasn't, I made a lot of mistakes. I made a lot of self-inflicted errors, but I didn't hurt anybody, I didn't fuck anybody over around me. I was at my core, I was a good dude who made a lot of mistakes, and that dude put a lot of faith in me. And that's just happened to me over and over again.
HostWhat do you think you owe the men who pulled you out?
Chris McCoyAnd how would you repay a debt like that? Everything I can never repay Marcus Hall. The best way I can the best way that I can repay Marcus Hall and Mike Hall and Alan Buford is by succeeding and growing and be a good dude every fucking day. Because at the highest level, that's all they give a shit about. They don't care what my job is, they don't care about my accoutrements, they don't care about how much money I make. Those dudes, at their highest level of leadership, they just care that I've got my shit together and I'm reflecting something on them. Al Buford something said something to me a long time ago that really got into me, and it was a throwaway comment from him that I don't even think he remembers, man. He saw this tattoo and he was like, look, man, if you're gonna man, fuck. He goes, He goes, if you're gonna wear that for the rest of your life, you have an obligation to me and everyone else who wore that to be an example of what we are. And that that like fucked me up. You know what I mean? And he didn't say it in a nasty way, it was just in a phone call. And that just you know, I've got this guy who's Army Ranger, Hall of Fame, Delta Force commander, taking time out of his day to just give me some advice about like going to the DMV. Give me some advice about hey, how what do I do with this job interview? You know, little stuff like that. But he said something to me, and from someone of his weight to say that, you know. Mike Hall told me one time Command Sergeant Major Mike Hall, Regimental Sergeant Major Mike Hall, ISAF Sergeant Major Mike Hall, J Sox Sergeant Major Mike Hall. That guy told me he's like, you know what, man? We've had a lot of guys come through these doors that we reached out to help. To this day, you're the only person that's ever paid back a loan in full from the foundation. And because of that, you'll always be good in my book. You know what I mean? And to me, yeah, it was like a little they gave me a little loan so I could get out of some some like car registration shit a long time ago, right? And I paid it back immediately, you know. I grounded out and I sacrificed myself to pay that loan back immediately because it was incomprehensible to me the fact that I could have been put in a position where I owe people something, you know. And to me, that was like, well, that's what you're supposed to do. But I didn't know that they've done that for a lot of people. And a lot of people have fucked them off and ran away, took the money and bounced bounced. I just couldn't imagine doing that. That's just that's just again, this is just me.
HostAs a dude who's gotten a help for a lot of people, do you find yourself now with an open door to help others? Has that changed you?
Chris McCoyYeah, actually it has. It's kind of weird because you know, we talk about like my hostility and my standoffishness, but yeah, now you've imagined it. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's a completely open door.
HostMy wife sees right through that shit just so you know, dude. She knows you're uh she knows you've got a good heart. You've just got a rough exterior, and I think, you know, we were talking about it yesterday. You have that hostile, rough exterior because that's what kept you alive during some of the darkest, deepest moments of of your life. And you know, if you if you haven't listened to Chris's story from our first podcast, um, you know, I if you find yourself struggling uh and you've made it this far in the interview, I would highly suggest you go um listen to that story. Uh Chris really buried his soul on some of the things that he went through and how he literally brought himself back from the grave, and it was a powerful, powerful story.
Chris McCoyThere's another woman in my life who was like that too. Um Marcus's lady, Susan Boyko, Ma. I don't call her mom, I call her Ma. Susie. Um I came into Marcus and Susie's life at a real down point in my life. And Susie is a self-proclaimed cookie mom. This is like a suburban cookie soccer mom. And she saw right through the thugged out, tatted up, F-word bullshit. She saw right through that. She saw that I was a good person who just needed some love, I think. And you know, she's like the sun. You know, the sun gives and it gives infinitely and it never asks anything in return. The only thing the sun wants you to do is grow. And that was Susan Boyko. So, like having you know, I think certain people just come along and they just like like Laura, they just see through your nonsense and they say there's something good in there, I'm gonna take care of it.
HostI mean, you you've told the bottom completely the overdose, the attempts, the streets, and it reached a lot of hurting people. A year of those messages later, what do you understand about coming back that you didn't understand when you were down here a year ago?
Chris McCoyWell, I think I really wasn't aware of how many people a platform like this can reach in a real way. Uh you know, we talked about it earlier, there's a lot less sense of interpersonal community now. And now the stuff we watch kind of becomes our community, right? The chat group, so that's a great example. You're probably in a chat, your listeners out there, you're probably in a chat group right now. That chat group probably might mean something awesome to you, you know? That might be your soccer mom chat group, that might be your car club chat group, that might be your like electrician chat group where you share memes, right? But that is a little sense of community. And I wasn't aware of how much reached this head when you share something with people and they can identify it and relate to it, you know? Yeah, dude. And like all the troll comments, all the bullshit, all the negativity, that means nothing to me. The fact that I was able to reconnect with Lionel Balloon, that means something to me. The fact that somebody out there reached out and found the time to find out the full name of Victor Anthony Castoratis and the day that he died, damn, dude, that means so much to me. The fact that guy in that Seattle library eating out of a trash can, getting his job, man. I bro, wherever you are, I hope you're I hope you're grinding right now at your job. And I hope you bought a little shit car, and I hope you got money for Starbucks in the morning, dude. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like that's real shit. I tried hard to find that dude. He just disappeared. You know, Eric Garcia, I know you're out there, buddy. I tried to find you, but you don't you didn't reply to my comment. I've served in the yeah, I served in the old guard with a guy named Eric Garcia. Eric Garcia had been a minor league baseball player, who's a catcher down in Florida, and he reached out to me. Hey man, it's Garcia. Reach out to me. I reached out to him, I couldn't find him. Eric, I hope we find each other again. You were my homie. Um But there's a lot of human moments out there, man, and like uh I think if you sift through all the trash and the garbage and the floating space debris that's on the internet, you're gonna find little nuggets of interhuman personal wisdom. And uh, you know, if you're out there listening and you're probably driving your car, or maybe you're making dinner, or maybe you're on a treadmill, or maybe you're just out for a walk, or maybe this is playing in the background while you tinker with your stuff, man. I hope that like I I really mean this. This may sound corny. I really hope shit is going good for you. And I really hope that your day is rad. And I really hope someone comes along and you have a good interaction with them. That's all the fuck that matters.
HostWe had had a bunch of interesting things going on on our platform. I mean, a lot of I didn't build this for a business. I never thought people would listen. Um, I never had any I didn't, I still don't know what I'm doing. It's just me and an editor who believed in this thing and worked for me for free from the bird.
Chris McCoyShoutouts to Odie, dude. Odie is uh where did you find this guy?
HostOdie found me, dude. And our our Genesis is actually on our Patreon. Odie came out here, we filmed it. It's it's kind of a funny story.
Chris McCoyOdie, you're a freaking superhero, man. And like he's cool as hell, too. And we've said before. He's like an uncle to my kids. I have a goal one day with this podcast, right? Of something you're gonna do for me. Because I've never I've never paid a dime, right? I'm not shilling. We're not paid by the Bilderbergs. There's nothing, there's no money involved here. But Odie, Odie needs a tracksuit and a gold chain, bro.
HostYou know, well, I'll tell you, man, I mean, we've we've had some real ups and downs, and and you know, this is um, you know, people think you get a million views or something. That that doesn't, there's not a there's not always a financial incentive. We don't really have too many big sponsors. We have one awesome sponsor who's been with us for the last six months. Uh, shout out to New Wave Mortgage. If you guys need a mortgage, go check them out. They're probably one of the best in the business. But you know, there was a time when I thought, well, maybe I don't need to do this. I didn't start this to talk, I don't talk about myself. This was never about me. I just thought I could share some stories kind of like yours to help people. And you know, right before your episode aired, I thought, well, maybe I've done a couple, I'm I'm good. I'll and you know, we were having, you know, at the time we're we were having a hard time finding guests. I was still new. It's really hard when you're new. People know who you are, and there's a lot of people they want attention, so you can't, yeah.
Chris McCoyIt's it's it's it's harder than it's funny because there's a couple get people that I know in my life who are exceptional. I think they'd be amazing podcast guests, but the thing that makes them amazing is that they don't, you know, they're not out there looking DeAndre is grinding on a mat right now.
HostBrandon Alvarez is out at a but all that being said, man, like when you're you know, we we were thinking about hanging it up, and then we started seeing the comments from your podcast, and that's what drove me. I mean, there's not a lot of money in this industry. I mean, you know, Sean Ryan, Joe Rogan, the people that are making money, they've had huge investors. There's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that a lot of people don't know about. And even in the sponsorship/slash marketing industry, there's a ton of grift. Um, and I have turned down two post-production companies because I don't want to lose control of what I've built. Um, I like the way we do it. There's people that told me, hey, nobody's gonna listen to a seven-hour conversation. Dude, you'll get there. It's been a year. I mean, a lot of these people that are really making No, but yeah, but all that being said, the reason why the things that keep us going, man, is the stories like yours and then the reaction that we see that it's it's making a difference.
Chris McCoyEven if it doesn't, you know, allow you to buy the nice things that you I think if you stop looking at it from the marketing, the relentless marketing, like what's our niche, what's our viewer demographic.
HostIf you stop looking at all that bullshit and you just be authentic and you be yourself, you're gonna well and you know, the funny thing for me is when I started this, I I I had no idea that there was 3.7 million podcasts out there. Um, I had no idea how many veteran podcasts. I just did zero research, dude. Zero. I just was like, hey, I've got a couple friends that have some cool stories, and those friends have some friends that might have some cool stories, and you know, I I I do a lot of preparation and planning.
Chris McCoyYou got some cooler people than me, man. You got Mac V Sog, dude. God damn, got another one coming.
HostYeah, it's been a wild ride, man. Well, um, without just talking in circles, dude, I I think we've we've talked for a while. This has been an awesome, awesome second visit, man. I mean, you're just one of the most articulate and you've just become a good friend. And I enjoy, you know, hearing you succeed. And, you know, you've you've got your book coming out, Unseen Words. That should be out here in the next couple months. Unseen worlds. Unseen worlds. Sorry. Yeah. So we'll when Chris's books drop, we'll make sure that we uh we'll we we we send it out. Um, we'll leave all of Chris's social media stuff in the description if you want to follow him. He's got a fun channel, he's always putting out good, funny stuff. Um and yeah, man, just thanks for being a good friend. Thanks for uh thanks for coming back on and seeing us again.
Chris McCoyI know you like your thanks for having me. God bless all the Rangers, God bless all the combat veterans, God bless all this, all the the civil service workers out there. If you're out there strapping on the belt and putting your life on the line every day, come home safe because people care about you.
HostYeah. Um, to all the listeners out there, uh, we we really appreciate support, man. The the support is is is overwhelming. If you've made it this far and you're not subscribed to the channel, uh just please hit the subscribe button. It's free, cost you nothing. Um, it helps us and it helps the algorithm push us up.
Chris McCoyI wonder if nobody can do this.
HostUm and then if you could, um, you know, if you are looking for a house, man, use our sponsors. Um, they they help us, it helps our channel. We have a supplement brand. That's a brand that I built personally uh so that we could self-fund the podcast. So I don't have to, you know, chase sponsors and suck up to people and tell you about how these antler pills work that I don't even take. I it's just I don't have it in me, man. Uh, and that's why we don't have a ton of sponsors. We've we've really looked for relationships instead of just somebody to you know pay us $300 for an episode. I'd rather not do it. But Odie needs a pay raise. My editor does not get paid near what he should have for what he creates. So if you could support us, man, we'd super appreciate it. There's a bunch of different ways you can uh you can join our YouTube community. Um, you can join our, I think our Apple community now. We've got a Patreon account. Um, and none of them are super expensive. They're like four bucks, man, uh, or $4.99. But every little bit helps. And anything that we make above our cost, I don't take any profit from this podcast. Anything that we make, uh, we've been donating to a nonprofit. We have several that we've partnered with, Coast to Coast Foundation. Um, and we're about to partner with uh another nonprofit called Nothing by Chance, who's gonna be helping folks be able to do IBegain um that aren't, you know, Delta Force dudes, man. There's other people out there that have struggled with trauma that that could benefit from that medicine. Um and so we we we we're hoping to to uh to be able to partner with them. So everybody be safe out there. Uh and if you can't be safe, be violent out here. Thanks for having me.