From Engineer to Delta Force: The Untold Journey Nobody Expected | Bob "Ninja" Porras (Part 1)

Few operators earn the right to walk away from Delta Force on their own terms. Bob "Ninja" Porras did exactly that—after building a legendary career from nothing.

This episode covers Bob's journey from Los Angeles to becoming one of Delta Force's most respected operators. Starting as an Army engineer, he battled bureaucracy, survived Panama combat operations, earned his Green Beret, and fought his way into the Unit—the most selective special operations force in the world.

Bob shares what Delta selection really tests, the truth about peacetime military life in the 1980s, and the leadership lessons that carried him through two decades of combat rotations. From hostage rescue training to the opening chapters of the War on Terror, this is the story of a warrior who never stopped evolving.

Content Advisory: This episode contains discussion of military combat operations, wartime experiences, and deployment stress. All content is presented in historical/educational context.

If you're interested in military history, special operations, or leadership under pressure, this conversation delivers truth without the Hollywood filter.

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Transcript

Host 1:09

When you've spent years serving others, it's easy to put your own health on the back burner. At Prestigio Wellness Group, they are changing that. Founded by a former special forces medic, emergency medicine physician, and a hormone and longevity specialist. Dr. Bosley's mission is to help veterans, first responders, and motivated personnel nationwide to take back control of their health. This is why I personally trust Prestigia Wellness Group and optimizing my health goals. With telehealth appointments available in nearly every state, Prestigia Wellness Group can offer you personalized hormone and peptide therapies straight to your door. Grab Dr. Bosley's top five supplement guide in the show notes to start fueling your momentum and then visit Presticision Wellness Group.com to get started. Listeners, please mention Vanguard50 for your 50% off, your one-hour in-depth consultation with Dr. Bosley. For our home viewers, you can also scan the QR code on the screen right here to directly lock in that Vanguard Wall deal on your initial telehealth or in-person visit. Take a tactical approach to optimize your health at Prestigion Wellness Group. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Vanguard Wall. This one's going to be super cool. Today in the studio, we got Bob Ninja Porous. Bob was episode 45 and 46 on Sean Ryan. I think it was Sean Ryan's first two-part episode. Great interview. My listen thought way back when.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah.

Host 2:27

Got drunk, something. I don't know. And I was looking through, I'm like, oh man, I don't know how I ran across you, but I'm I I sent you a message and you responded pretty quickly, man. So it was pretty cool. So I know time's precious, man. I know you guys drove a long way to be here, and that's not lost on me. So thanks for for being willing to tell your story on a much smaller podcast than some of the other ones you've been on. But we appreciate that. So uh so thanks for being here, dude. Yeah, thank you for the invite. Awesome. Well, before we uh before we super deep dive, I want to start off with an intro real quick. There are men who serve, and then there are men who spend their lives answering every call this nation has ever whispered. Today's guest is one of those rare men. Bob Ninja Poris is a former Delta Force operator, a senior special agent supervisor with CIA's global response staff, and one of the most respected quiet professionals to ever walk into a fight. If you follow this world, you already know his name. If you don't, you're about to understand why Sean Ryan himself said Ninja was one of the best interviews he has ever done and one of the most respected men to ever serve inside GRS. Bob's journey didn't start behind a rifle. It started in Los Angeles. Raised in a working class home with a Marine Corps father who drilled one message into him, get a skill that still matters when the uniform comes off. He entered the Army as an engineer, but from day one, he was chasing something harder. The cool guy stuff on the recruiter posters, the black beret, 82nd Airborne jumps, and eventually the pathway into the shadow world. From the engineers, he hustled his way into the ranger pipeline, battled through army bureaucracy so broken it literally listed him as AWOL while he was still in formation in the Ranger Regiment, and then clawed his way into the unit, first Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, where his real career began. There he served through small-scale conflicts of the 80s, desert storms, aftermath, and the opening chapters of the global counterterrorism, rotating constantly from direct action to hostage rescue to protective operations. His DD-214 reflects it all. Multiple awards, airborne air assault, military free fall, special forces tab, a career few ever glimpse. But Bob didn't stop there. He retired from the military only to launch a second full career with the Central Intelligence Agency's GRS, the organization tasked with keeping America's intelligence officers alive in the most dangerous places on Earth. That's where men like Sean Ryan served under him, and that's where Bob earned the reputation of being the guy who could blend in anywhere, move in permissive and semi-hostile environments with total calm, and make every call count when lives are on the line. From Panama ambushes to Baghdad in 2004 to carrying team members who weren't being listened to, to walking unarmed into neighborhoods most people avoid even while armed, Bob became a master of what he now teaches mindset, awareness, real world, concealed carry, and the ability to feel something's wrong before the threat even shows its face. He's the rare man who has lived all three lives, a soldier, operator, protector. And now, after decades in the shadows, he's sharing the truth, the lessons, and the human cost with all of us. So today, the Vanguard Wall Podcast audience, it's an honor to sit across from a man who has seen America's wars from the inside and who has carried the weight of decisions few will ever understand, and who still chooses to serve by teaching everyday people how to stay alive. Ladies and gentlemen, Bob Ninja Poris.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Thank you for that.

Host 5:49

Before we dive too far and get this interview, we have a couple things we wanted to give you. So Uriah Pop over at 6'8 Medal Medical, who retired from U.S. Army Special Operations Command in a medical capacity, makes some of the best medical kits that I've seen thus far. And so I know I know that's important to you. So we wanted to give you one of these.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Oh, thank you. And this is 6'8 medical, you said.

Host 6:13

6'8 medical, man. Yeah, Uriah's a great human being. We just did a a YouTube review on it, so you know we'll we'll be able to we'll post that that review on the on the on our YouTube channel as well. It kind of shows everything that's in there. Yeah. And then we also got you. I don't have gummy bears, man, but you got you, we got you a custom made knife. So that's these are pretty hard to run by. And it's got our our logo laser engraved on it. Oh man, I appreciate it. Couldn't think of somebody better than to give a warrior's tool to, man, especially with all that you've done for the country. So I don't know. I gotta go hunting so I can skin something. Yeah, we were gonna get gummy bears, man, but we couldn't get to Buckys in time to get some good gummy bears.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

This is nice. Hell yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. Yep.

Host 7:02

Before we dive into kind of your life story, and we'll we're gonna do a whole bio on you. One of the things I've listened to a couple of your podcasts, but nobody ever asked, where did the call sign ninja come from?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Ninja, yeah. So that was a you know, you you're not you're given call signs at the unit. You don't you don't get to pick your own. And so I showed up and had a cult sign, but it's just what you know, they ask you, what is your call sign? And you start out with one, and it was it started out with black sheep. That was a call sign of mine from years back, back in the infantry days. Black sheep at the family, only boy in the family, so that's how I got that one. And then then it changed to get to the unit and have a ski trip, it changes to bobsled because on my ass down a downhill ski slope on my ass the whole way and got bobsled as a some people still call me that, and and then team debriefs and stuff like that. So that's how the ninja thing came up. So it wasn't anything to like like ninja skills, right? Any combative stuff, but team sergeant's in the team room and he's giving us a debrief at the end of the day. Like, what's hot? What do we need to be aware of before we leave, right? Load your bags for this kind of thing tonight, be prepared tonight, do whatever, right? And so we do that, and that's like you know, periodically throughout the week and throughout the days that we're getting those Intel updates, and that was just daily life at the unit, and it's like, okay, cool. And some of the times I wouldn't be there because I'm as a team breacher at the time when I got the call sign, I'd always be doing other things with uh building charges, doing some research or something like that under charge or whatever, a downran doing, you know, blowing shit up, doing my job. So sometimes I wasn't there, so it was not a big deal. A team's heart, and you'll just say, Okay, we'll just make sure he gets the information before he leaves tonight. And okay, that's how it was. So sometimes though, I was there, but he got used to me not being there occasionally. And one time he came into the team room, and everybody's around the team room, it's a small team room, and we're sitting around the table taking notes. And what do we need to be prepared for? What do we need to pack our bags for? And if the the pager back then, if the pager goes off tonight, it's probably this. And and I was there, standing right next to him. When he looked up from his notes to say, Hey, where's where's Bobsled? Right, he looks up like this, but I'm standing off to his right and does that really quickly, and everybody on the team's looking up like, like, dude, he's right there, right? But they didn't say that, they didn't say anything, they just looked up, like, what's going on? And uh, one of my teammates said something about, you know, he's here, he hears everything you're saying. He must have just popped ninja smoke, right? And you just can't see him. So that was one of the things that was said, and that's kind of where the call sign came from. So and then it was like another time it happens, it's like, well, he's like a ninja, you know, he's here, but you just can't see him. So that's twice this happens, and inside the team room, and then then it's stuck. And it was like one of those things, like after the second time this happens, he's like, fucking ninja, and then it's stuck. Yeah, it's like all right, that's my call.

Host 9:58

So you were the true gray man, dude. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of us that try to be the gray man. I've I've tried it many a times. I just I'm like a bull in a china cab that never really works out. Describe your upbringing, man. You grew up in Los Angeles. Tell us a little bit about your childhood.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, grew up in Los Angeles in the suburbs into San Fernando Valley. Public school education the whole way through. Yep. Pretty, you know, Southern California, San Fernando Valley. That's during those times. We're talking the 60s and 70s. So that's that's the uh the uh you know, all all the stereotypical stuff is happening during those times, the the Valley Girl stuff and all that, those movies are coming out and all that stuff. Pretty much lived a regular childhood, so regular for me in LA, San Fernando Valley, right? So there's there's a mix of we're living in the same neighborhood. And it's not so middle class, middle class upbringing, and but we also lived in the same neighborhood, and I didn't know it at the time that we're living around like like actors and stunt men, people in the industry, and that's that's the big thing in LA, right? I thought I was going that direction too at one point, but that's kind of just you're around it all the time. You run into actors on and or they're filming a a movie on your street in a neighborhood street or something like that. So it's kind of just that that's normal in the San Fernando Valley. I thought I was gonna get into the the stunt world kind of thing because there was a stunt stuntman who back in the day, if you remember the the series Six Million Dollar Man. Oh, yeah. So all the stunt men that were in it. Yeah, yeah. So they they're right down the street. So there was a stuntman who lived down the street, and so subsequently you see all the other stuntmen that are there, all the guys that were in those things. You I've seen them at one point or another. I met Chuck Connors, the rifleman. But I was a kid, I was like, Man, I've seen you on TV, right?

Host 11:50

You just watched you yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, I was like, but I was like, okay, cool. It wasn't like starstruck or anything like that. Another guy on on one other western lived there, never saw him, but my dad said, Hey, that's where what I can't remember his name now. He was on Bonanza or something like that. That's where he lives. I was like, Oh, cool, we live in the same neighborhood. That's kind of cool. There's people are gonna hear this podcast, they're like, What is Bonanza?

Host 12:13

That's how you know we're old Bob or Chuck Connors, yeah. The rifleman, what's that?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Yeah, next you can talk about Little House on the prairie. So that that that's that was it. That the exposure I had. And the stunt man, so he had stuff out in his backyard, he had like trampolines and stuff to practice, you know, what his his tradecraft in uh in stunt man world. And it was just fun stuff. He's riding motorcycles, he's riding dirt bikes, he's you know, and so we did the same thing. We replicated his stuff on the streets in our neighborhood and doing jumps into bushes, you know, on our bicycles, and you know, that's awesome. Like we're trying to replicate scenes that we see stunt men in. And we a lot of us thought that's that's the path we were gonna take. Did not happen that way. You guys just wrap yourself with bubble wrap? No, no, we didn't do that. Yeah, there was no protection that we had, you know. So back in the day too, we were doing these stunts, you know, replicating stunts on if you remember the old toy, the big wheel. Oh, yeah. Yeah, ride those down hills and do this kamikaze runs like stunt man, then crash it at the at the bottom of the hill. So it was just, you know.

Host 13:23

So you guys were doing all the jackass stuff before Jackass became the movie, right?

unknown 13:26

Right.

Host 13:27

Get in a shopping cart and going down a hill and just crashing.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

So that was what we did being kids. And so we're talking 60s and 70s. So then it was, you know, get out of the house, go play, right? And then you had to come in when the streetlights come on. That was your key to go home, right? So you went out and you played outside, you came home from school, did your homework, and then out you went. Come in for dinner, get back out, wait, and street lights come on, then go home. So that's kind of the upbringing. And then Los Angeles and San Fernando Valley, say, you know, there's all that other stuff. As you grow up in the junior high, middle school, and high school, you start getting exposed to the the criminal element inside of LA because there's gangs, and then you have to either participate or somehow avoid it altogether. I managed to navigate all through that stuff and not associate myself with any gangs or drugs during that time frame. A lot of things contributed to that, I think. I use it as an excuse, I think, but I really did. So my mom dies when I was 10. So all of us, so from myself and my two older sisters, so middle kid in the family of all women, two sisters older than me, two sisters below me.

Host 14:41

Oh god, your poor dad, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Thank God he had you, bro. So, yeah, so that's that's one of the things he says. I don't remember when I was how old I was, but I was I was young. And he used to say, you know, you're responsible for your sisters, don't let anything happen to your sisters. He said that early on, and then when they get into middle school and high school, and I'm year two years behind my next older sister. So we went to middle school and high school together. So I took on a role as her protector, right? Whether she wanted it or not, right? Right. And but in middle school, I'm I'm the little guy having to deal with these taller kids, bigger kids. And so everybody's going through the growth spurt two years ahead of me, and I'm having to confront these guys, like leave my sister, like, leave my sister, yeah, and they're looking at me like, oh, that's cute, right? But I get it, good for you, and uh yeah, we won't bother your sister. And it was it was stuff like that in high school, same thing. So that was some of the things that you know, some of the advices. I call them like my cup of joe with my dad kind of conversations now, because that's what we do. Still has that, you know, he's still a dad, still being a dad, and still giving the advice and those kind of things. So, how how to carry yourself, how to walk, how to be a gentleman, those kind of conversations, which probably don't happen enough, I think, these days, you know, opening doors for women and doing the gentleman thing, being gentlemanly. But those are all the things he still talks about all the time.

Host 16:43

How did uh I mean, you lost your your mom at 10 years old. I don't really want to just glance over that. How how did how did that affect you, man?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Oh yeah, that was devastating. So my uncle probably died in a car accident two about two years before that. So that was my first exposure to knowing somebody that close who had passed away, but he's my uncle, didn't live in the same house. We saw him regularly, but not like every day. So I saw that was the first exposure to somebody losing somebody like that. And then yeah, my mom died. That was that was devastating to a lot of people. And I was ten. So I had at the time just one younger sister. She was a year and a half behind me, I think. So really it was me. Maybe it was a coping thing, I don't know. Still don't understand that stuff, but that's I was helping her, right? That in my mind, I was helping her like cope with the loss. And my older sisters were doing their own thing, they were dealing with it in another way. So I always had somebody like that, I think, to to think about instead of myself. So I guess that was kind of kind of a common theme, uh, really, when when I think about it now that you know, throughout the the career that I had, that's kind of what helped me get through a lot of things. It's like thinking about somebody else or being responsible for somebody else.

Host 18:13

What what kind of dynamic change did you guys have in your house after that? I mean, like, you know, it's you come from a Hispanic family, and and I know like that's a very tight family knit unit. Like, how did it how did it change the house dynamics?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Oh man, yeah, that was so my dad is so he's a traditional Hispanic, Mexican with some I guess thoughts of how things should be now, right? Because there he he was always like, Okay, women have a role, men have a role, you know, and all that stuff in a family dynamics, and now mom's gone. What do you do? So literally he And I'm sure he wasn't prepared for it. Oh yeah, he yeah, and he figured it out, and of course he made mistakes along the way, but uh he's also not unlike me, unwilling to seek help from anybody else. So we kind of share that little similarity there. But so he wasn't reaching out to people like I don't know what I'm doing. He he never said that that I know of, like, I don't know what I'm doing. It was more of a I'll figure this out, right? Whatever's happening, I'll figure it out. But yeah, he so dealing with that, yeah, still he still talks about it today. Still just it was devastating to a lot him and a lot of folks, and myself included. My sisters are dealing with it. I mean, it was disruptive on many levels to the rest of our lives, really, positively and negatively.

Host 19:43

At what point did you kind of stop telling yourself like you're gonna get used to it? I haven't done that yet. Yeah. So I think there's certain loss that you know we process and certain losses that we just never process now.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, and there's so there's subsequently I lose both my older sisters also. They were they they passed young. I want to say my the next older sister was maybe 22 or 3.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Really?

SPEAKER_00 20:12

I was in the army at the time. I had just oined I just joined what what happened? Cancer, all of them. My mom, two older sisters, all cancer. Uh and they were I think they were different forms. I'm not sure exactly what they all die what cancers they had, but uh ultimately it was their their cancers. I think they weren't one was breast cancer, they were all different.

Host 20:33

So both your older sisters as well?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Yeah.

Host 20:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

And I was I was at the unit when my oldest sister died. That was the next most devastating like death in the family.

Host 20:43

Yeah, we're we'll we're gonna talk about that when we we get to that because I I remember when we podcast prep that was very impactful. Yeah. Who I your dad was in the Marines. Yeah, and I think you had some some other family member serve.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

I think everybody did. Yeah, all my yeah, all my uncles, all that generation, they were all somewhere mostly Marines, but Navy, Air Force. I have a c couple cousins went in the Air Force. Was uh was sports a big part of your life in high school? Yeah, I tried that. Wasn't very good at it. So I was very I was very un I guess focused on things. And my dad was very supportive, I think, to to the to his fault. He's like, whatever whatever you want, son, right? Kind of thing. Which is okay, cool. But it's like how to get better how to get better at something, right? So I was like, well, let me everybody's playing football, let me try that, right? And yeah, I I got it, but it it it wasn't I I guess it wasn't challenging enough, or I I'm not sure what what the the deal was there, but yeah, tried it and it wasn't exciting enough for me to want to get better at it, kind of thing. And I didn't know that that that's kind of how I felt. But it's like okay, I'll do this and did it. Did okay, but I wasn't still in I want to excel at this. And same thing with a lot of academic stuff too. It's like it's nobody told me like nobody gave me the whys. Why we why are we learning this? Like, how is this gonna impact my life? And they're like, trust me, you're gonna learn it. And so still to this day, like all the all the math classes and stuff, it's like, okay, I still haven't used that. Exactly.

Host 22:23

You know, it's kind of funny. I don't think anybody that's come on this podcast that went to the unit or in the ranger battalion or organ special operations was a straight A student in high school.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

I don't think that correlates. So I did well in school, but I I there was no motivation for me to do straight A stuff. I was like, C's good enough. So good enough, right? And that's what I did. So my mind went somewhere else. I'll focus that much attention to this and then do other things, right? And did you start working early in high school? In high school, yeah. I was summer jobs, weekend jobs, yeah. Summer jobs that probably started in middle school. So there's a time in middle school where you're where the like summer is your time for like training camps for baseball and football. So you're out of school, then you have all these training camps. So I did a lot of that during the summer, part-time work, and it was all mostly construction on sites, and it's like the labor the the labor stuff on construction sites when you're a kid. All you can do is like, you know, whatever, clean up after whatever's happening that day. You know, so it's uh that kind of stuff. Oh, yeah, I was always working, I in especially in high school. Part time jobs during the day, weekends, summers. Definitely so yeah, that was that that started early.

Host 23:41

What you graduate high school, how did the military kind of come on your radar?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Totally just out of the blue, yeah.

Host 23:50

You were working like Toys R Us, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, so so in high school, you see the Razi folks, and it's like nothing's motivating me there. It's like, okay, that's like way too much control of your life, right? And then you see the Marine Corps recruiters because that was a huge thing in LA, they're all over the place.

Host 24:07

Oh, I'm a SoCal guy, dude. Those guys were they were better than used car salesmen, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Well, and it's a uniform, right? It's like that's awesome, man. That's a cool ass uniform. You got the blues on and walking, yeah. That's great stuff. Got me too. I was like, that's so that's all I knew. And I knew some of the Ratzi kids in high school. One guy he was convinced that he was gonna be a special forces guy, right? I didn't know anything about really the military, the army, the marine corps has cool uniforms, and you know, that's the extent of my knowledge. And all my uncles are in the Marine Corps Navy or something like that. And okay, I've seen movies and you know, all the World War II movies and John Wayne and all that stuff. I was like, okay, yeah, your uncles go to Vietnam because that was yeah. So my my dad's youngest brother, he was in Vietnam, and my dad was in between the break between Korea and Vietnam. So another uncle, he was in the Marine Corps and then entered the reserves, Marine Corps reserves. Uh yeah, but my youngest or my dad's youngest brother is and they're the only two alive of that group.

Host 25:11

What did anybody ever tell, like, that was did you guys ever talk about the military at your house or Vietnam? Or is this kind of like a quiet thing?

SPEAKER_00 25:18

No, yeah, never talked about it. The and then the one the only other Vietnam vet that I knew was a neighbor of ours, and we grew up with him, and he was probably probably my oldest sister's age, uh probably five or six years ahead of me. And at one point he disappears. We we're not really, we don't know what's going on. We you know, so my older sisters, their friends, and what I'm hearing, they're they're their group of folks saying, you know, they're going to Canada and all this other stuff, they're trying to avoid the draft because there was a draft then. And I was thinking, well, that's not right. I mean, I that was that was kind of in the back of my head too this whole time, is like, well, okay, I guess that's what I'm doing, because you have to do it. And I wasn't really putting any effort into it and finding out what it's all about, but then the draft goes away. But that was the conversations I was hearing as a kid in the late 60s, early 70s, when there was still a draft, and all my older the friends of my sisters were talking about like going to Canada and stuff. And I was like, Well, that's that's not right. That's not you know, that's not what you're supposed to do. And my dad was more of a patriot all the way, and uh he said, if you if you do it, he he said it once, I don't remember, I was young, high school or junior high. If if you want to do that, great. If you don't, that's fine. And he he's the first one that told me it's like it's not for everybody. And I didn't know what that meant at the time, but I was like, okay, sure. And then filed that away. And it didn't happen until after high or right before I the last six months or so of high school. I was like, hmm, well everybody's you know, everybody's got their paths already. Like some kids are getting scholarships to college, and some guys are getting athletic scholarships and they're going to wherever college you're going to. Some guys are moving away to somewhere to do some sort of work. And a lot of it was construction work where you had to go to different places. And I was like, huh, well, let me find out what this business world is all about. And I had part-time jobs, so I was familiar with, you know, getting a payroll and filling out forms and stuff like that, and you know, the actu application and how to get a job and stuff like that, interviews. And so that wasn't that big of a everybody was scared about that in high school. It's like that was like something one class they went over that. Like, how do you how do you write a resume? How do you write, how do you conduct yourself in an interview and all and that kind of stuff? And it was like there was college prep courses, there was those life skill courses and stuff like that that we were taking I was taking. And I was like, Well, I'm not getting a scholarship, can't afford tuition, there's no way. So when I found out, I was like, holy crap, this is that's a lot of money. And so I looked at the military and entertained the question with my dad again. He's like, Okay, if that's what you want to do, I totally support you. And that's when he told me, but he's like, but if you do, I think he was an MP or something. I'm not sure exactly what his job was in the Marine Corps. And I don't know why it was. I think it's MP. It's either he was in the stockade. Yeah, he got in trouble a lot or he was an MP. Or he was an MP. What and maybe both. And I'll have to ask him that question. I keep meaning to ask him all these years. But he said, get a job skill. Whatever you do, have have them give you a job skill. So a marketable skill when you get out, it's it you can do it in the civilian world.

Host 28:47

And I think you were you were working at Toys R Us, and you were like going through a management program, and I think you finally realized like maybe the toys, the Toy Story is not not gonna be, you know, fast forward is probably a good move. I think Toys R Us went out of business.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah. And uh they have a I think there's a some sort of their company still alive. Oh, I can't remember what it is, but the storefront went away. Yeah.

Host 29:12

So what did your dad tell you when you didn't join the Marine Corps?

SPEAKER_00 29:19

I don't think he had a reaction to that because I said I'm going to see a recruiter, and he assumed it was the Marine Corps. I did talk to them. I talked to them, I talked to them, I talked to them all, and that's what I knew. And I seen the memory of the uniforms and all that stuff. So talk talked to the recruiter, and it was like one of those things. It's like, so what I was doing also in the summer, summer jobs were I was working on our construction sites. So that was what was in my mind about what job skill I'm gonna get. So my I asked them, all the recruiters, about what what do you have in the engineer side of the house? I want to be an engineer so I can when I get out, I can come back and go to work. And yeah, Marine Corps was like, well, we'll make your marine. How about that? I was like, Okay, sure. What do I do engineer stuff? And and really the the office is all, you know, Globe and Acre stuff, it's the Marine Corps symbols everywhere, and it's all you know, gold and red everywhere. Cool, Sumper Videllas flags everywhere, and it's like, oh, yeah, it's kind of cool. I can do this. And I he never really got to the point where he's gonna guarantee me some sort of job skill. He he, but he would he did say that. Well, I'll guarantee you'd be a Marine. That's that's your guarantee. I was like, well, like everybody in the Marines is a Marine. And I was like, okay, well, he goes, So when when can I set you up for the test? I was like, Well, oh, you know, let me think about this for a little bit and I'll I'll come back. I mean, I gotta, you know, think about a few things. Those dudes don't like that because they're like timeshare salesmen, bro.

Host 30:58

They want they smell blood in the water, they want you to swear that name.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't go. Yeah, yeah. So I leave, and uh the the the shopping center that I was at had all the all had all the services there. This one building had all of them in it. And so I'm talking to everybody. I did the same thing with the Navy. Navy described the CBs and the CB program, and they said, you know, when I asked about the engineer stuff, they said, I got something for you. And then they mentioned the CB stuff, the dozers, the front end loaders, and the the earth movers. And I was like, Oh, that's exactly what I want. And then he said he started talking, and I didn't know what he meant by all this stuff, but he's like, You gotta go on like floats, and you know, you're gonna have to do time doing that. And I was like, no clue what he's talking about. It's like, what does that mean? Uh what is your what are your deployments look like? And ultimately, it's like you're living on a ship for that whole time, not doing your job as an engineer, so that's the only thing I was computing. It's like, well, are we are we moving dirt, right? And no, let's put dirt on the ship. There's no practical application of the job skill that I'm gonna get better at it so I can get out and apply it. So I was like, okay, well, you know, timeout, check fire on that one. Let me go check some of it out. So talk to the Air Force, and they said the same thing, they have engineers and stuff like that. And so they gave me the spiel, off to the army. I go, and in the army, so all the offices on all the the decorations on the wall and the plaques and the flags and stuff. I and I walk into the army recruiting station and they had their shit together with all the cool photos and the posters on the wall. So we're talking, you know, 1980 or 79 maybe. So no no technical stuff. So we have these little, I don't even know what they're called, the the videos.

Host 32:50

They put them in a VHS, dude.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

I'm not even sure it was a VHS. Yeah, you're older than me.

Host 32:55

You might have eight tracks, dude.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

It was something, you know, it's it might have been a VHS. So that they just slide this little thing in the in the machine and you're watching it on a pig, like it's like a TV that comes in on a roller. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it's yeah, same thing they had in the high schools, right? And so I watched a few videos and on all the posters on the wall, and I just went to a range up north in Missouri, northern Missouri, and they had the old photos, like he had, and so there was like a the Green Beret photo poster with the guy who has a rope on like a 120 rappel rope and a rucksack, and then the guy's standing over him, they both have AK-47s, both have rucksacks on. And I was like, that looks cool. They're all camoied and stuff. It looks cool. Tanks doing something over here, and guys jumping out of planes and pictures of airborne dudes. I was like, oh that it's like, yeah, man, the rangers around Zodiac do this. Yeah, and the commercial on TV at the time, the recruiting pitch the army was putting out was Be All You Can Be. And it was the Ranger coming home on on leave. So he's getting off the plane, and he's got his got his black beret on because that at the time they were the only ones wearing berets or black berets, and then there's SF with the green berets. He gets off the plane, sends his greens, but he has his beret on. I was like, That's badass, right? He looks tough, right? And so all that that's what I wanted, that was what was grabbing me, grabbing my attention. Of course, then there's the whole engineer thing, they didn't have any pictures of the bulldozers and stuff. So I said, So if I could do that and this, this is this is exactly what I want. And he's like, Well, let's set you up for a test and we'll see where we can place you, right? And he's gonna, he doesn't really advise me on what's gonna happen. Okay, engineering, I got it. That's what you're interested in. You know, and he just needs to get numbers, I guess. So he gets that now, that information. He wants to be an engineer, okay. You got it, he already knows like where I'm gonna place in the the test, like what he's gonna offer me. So he's like, okay, so he likes the infantry stuff. Okay, if he scores low on the test, he's going there. And if he scores high, he might get his engineer stuff. But also for SF and some of the other stuff, a little bit higher on the test, the aptitude test that you're taking, the ASPAB. And so I don't know all that. He just like, we'll just go take the test and we'll set you up for that, and then we'll find out where we're gonna place you. So he comes, we get back, take the test, scores come back, and he's like, This is awesome. You took the test, and you're you got the high enough score on here, you're gonna actually, he was actually able to offer me the engineer stuff. Which is, you know, good for him, good for me. But I wanted to do all this other stuff too. And well, I get to be able to do that. Oh, yeah, yeah, you'll be able to do all that. That's when it started, right? And I and so now you can sign up straight off the street, like get a ranger contract and all these kind of things, and you're guaranteed to go that direction. And now, if you pass all the the training that to get there, then you're in. That wasn't available. You just join and you get an MOS, you get a primary and a secondary choice. And so my primary was engineering, and my I wanted to do this while I'm jumping out of planes, while I'm wearing a black beret, and while I'm driving tanks, right? And and of course, that's not possible. And so sign on the dotted line. I'm gonna be an engineer, and basic training goes through I go through basic training, you get to advance individual training, AIT, to get your MOS skill training, and we do the earth-moving stuff and the the engineer skill stuff, and we're doing that, and it's like, okay, what's next? I mean, when do we jump out of planes, right? Well, this bulldozer doesn't really fit in a plane.

Host 36:49

So did you ever feel like when you were joining the military, like you were running away from something or running towards something? Or was it just you're seeking adventure? I mean, you know, I would imagine there came, I mean, some there was some trauma that was induced when you lost your mom, and and you know, you I would imagine that you kind of lose you know a little bit of yourself at some point.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I mean, yeah. So and and really the what was what I remember about that whole time frame was like earning a living. So as I get out of high school and I'm learning right away that the job that I have at Toys R Us, and so they're they're you know, I'm getting the management training program and all this stuff. So there's there's opportunities there for progression and and more money and all that stuff, higher status in in the company and all that stuff. But I was like, man, now being aware of the cost of things. And so I still have my little sister, so my the one that was a year and a half behind me, she's doing her own thing. She would she her her experience through childhood wasn't the same as any one of us. She got into drugs and just lived that way, as far as I know, until I joined the army. So she was always doing her thing, hardly ever saw her. Was that you think attributed to probably some of the loss? Like you probably, yeah. Yeah, because we were as as young before that, we were very close. We didn't go anywhere. So it was me and my little sister always. And then my mom dies, she gets not right away, but she was the baby of the family at the time. Or the baby of the family is younger than her. So that was I think that was another issue that she had. She's not the baby of the family anymore. When my youngest sister is born, it's 10 years apart. So she's the baby of the family for most of her childhood until my youngest sister is born. Your dad was one thing. Did your dad get remarried? Or no with my mom, there all all five of us, same parents. And then then my mom dies, so now there's another baby in the family, which and she was literally maybe two years old.

unknown 39:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

So my youngest sister was two years old when my mom died. So she has very little memory of her. So now she's catching up on how she who she was, how she was, and all this other stuff. I think both both those things contributed to her, how she dealt with things. Because also the sister ahead of me, she got involved into the same dark side of the drugs in LA, right? And more of a partyer. She was more of a partier, more outgoing and stuff like that. The one behind me, she wasn't a yeah, the I mean that it's a party where you're doing that stuff, but she was more of a like a medicinal user, right? Just trying to escape life. Then my oldest sister, she joined the army. Pretty early on, she was probably 18, 19 when she joined. Her and a friend of hers did uh some sort of buddy program or something like that. Yeah, we all I think we all went through that whole time frame totally different. And for me, it was all I always had somebody to take care of. So that I think that's kind of how I kind of navigated that.

Host 40:12

So you were kind of joining the army, you just needed to make sure that you could have something stable to help.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Provide more, yeah, right. So I was always taking care of my little sister, buying her, you know, bikes and clothes and skates and all the kids stuff, you know, every once in a while I'd give her something, you know, all the all the cool kids stuff. And since I worked at Toys R Us, all the uh like the the easy bake oven stuff, I think that's what it's called. Oh yeah, so it's it's like so I'm getting all these things, you know, for her. So I I felt good doing that and just getting her stuff, clothes, bikes, whatever it was. And I think it was, you know, I'm getting more aware of, you know, just adulting really, paying bills, you know, and helping out around the house now, you know, electricity, food, water, groceries, all that stuff. And it was just a matter of how do how do I do this better?

Host 41:07

How do I get better at providing how how did how did losing your mom kind of shape how you treated like your own family, but later like the men underneath your command?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Probably just more understanding, right, of where they're coming from, which I think helped help me out later on with my leadership style. And and seeing my dad caught hell because of course he's not doing it right based off of from our own family members. It's like whatever some of the thing uh how he's he's helping us grow, right? Being a father, of course, he wasn't doing it right. He got that a lot from our own family members, and I saw that and I heard it, and I didn't really understand it at the time. But when I look back, it's like, holy crap, can you raising five kids on his own? Four girls and a son on your own.

Host 41:58

I can't even imagine, dude.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah, and and and we have a big family, so they would help. And we're in the San Fernando Valley. Everybody else is minus, we had two other families living in the valley at the time. Or one other family living in the valley at the time. Eventually, there's two families, two of his brothers moved to the valley, but everybody else is on the other side of the Santa Monica Mountains. They're in Santa Monica, Culver City, and the other side of LA, right? So, and then my mom's side of the family lived in a lot of some of them in San Diego, some of them in Culver City, a little bit further away, but not I mean, still in the LA kind of area. So they helped out. They're you know, they showed up on the weekends and helped cook meals and stuff like that, get us like, you know, try to I guess provide some sort of stability through that whole mess. But you can't they can't do that forever. They have their own families. And and so all of our fa all of our families. Um I mean, like we had five kids, six kids in another family. So the big families, everybody's got five and six kids in each one of their families, so they got the a lot of kids to take care of themselves. But we have one of my aunts provides a housemaid for us to help out cleaning the house, doing chores, cooking meals, and stuff like that. And missed opportunity there in learning Spanish, right? Because she didn't speak English. But she's she's trying to teach us, but she doesn't speak English either. You are one of the whitest Mexicans I know. Yeah, that's uh that's one of my other potential call signs was coconut. Yeah, brown on the outside, white on the inside. That's hilarious. And I still don't, I could have understanding of Spanish, still can't speak it.

Host 43:41

And that's gonna come up later when we talk about you being in the unit. It'll be a it'll that's more missed opportunities. Yeah, talk to me about arriving. So you you enlist as an engineer and you you get to Fort Leonardwood, Missouri, a beautiful place. What was basic training like for you?

SPEAKER_00 43:59

That was cool. I thought it was the coolest thing ever. It was everything I thought it was gonna be. All the so back then too, in the 80s, 1980, 81, or whenever I got in. So I I joined delayed entry from my last couple years, uh last couple months in high school, and then went in the following year. Yeah, it was everything I thought and expected. They're still they're still yelling at you and harassing you and doing that kind of stuff. And and the the only thing, the only like last minute, I guess, pretty close to before I leave. My sisters were still writing, like literally writing letters back then. She was she was in the army in Germany, right? Yeah, yeah. So there's no there's no email and all that stuff. Cell phones, yeah, still not a thing.

Host 44:46

Payphones at the I remember the base trainer, you give your quarterman, go call your mom.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, so that's how I get all these letters. It's like so, like literally, what what do you what's daily life look like, right? And she loved Germany. She once she got to Germany, she didn't want to come back to the states. She's and then she made a point to back to what I understood, how you get around in the army, she's just moving from camp to camp in Germany, right? And just so she can stay in Germany. And so she does that, and she's like, You have to you have to get the Germany. And I was like, Well, I already signed it. That was one of my options to go overseas, but not my first duty assignment. And she's like, missed opportunity. You can't change that now. So then she's she's telling me, Well, when you get to your first spot, she's the first one that tells me that when you in the letter, she's like, When you get to your first station, just request. To go to Germany. I was like, okay, that's the other 4187 that eventually does nothing for me.

Host 45:44

Well, we'll be talking a lot about 4187. The audience is going to get a firsthand look on what a 4787 is and how it shaped your career. So you you go to basic training and then you go to where's AIT for you? Oh, same place, Fort Lano, Edmunds. Okay. And then what was your first duty station? Did you go to Drum or Fort Bragg?

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Fort Meade, Maryland.

Host 46:07

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Yeah. Which is where NSA is at. I had nothing to do with NSA.

Host 46:13

I was about to say, what the what are the engineers doing at Fort Mead?

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, that's what the Army said too. At one point, painting the rocks. So the uh I I I actually lucked out. I think so they did actually have a job, and you're actually working your job because on Fort Meade, it's a small base too, and there's not a lot of training areas, but there's it's a it's a military, it's army base, so there is training areas. So the roads and trails on the Fort Meade and the and the range area, we did those. We graded and improved the roads, laid asphalt on some roads. So we had an asphalt team, uh, like a really a road construction team is what it was. And everything that you see anywhere else where they're building a road or asphalt road somewhere, it's exactly what I was doing. So the pavers and all that stuff, there and we were actually doing our jobs, which is I thought was great. Couldn't ask for any better place to be doing the job, working the skills, and that kind of stuff. And then during the the winter, when you don't do asphalt and all that other stuff, road work, and when when it's raining and inclement weather and stuff like that, usually on the civilian side, you know, you're not working. That's those are days that you're not being paid.

Host 47:22

Not in the army, bro.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, not the army, because what what happens in Maryland too is that it also snows there. So guess what we did? We were on the snow clearing team, and now we become from a road crew to a snow snow clearing. So when it snows, ice is you have the truck with the ice spreading the ice in the sand and all that stuff, so that we're back on the roads again doing that. But that's now main the main post area and the housing areas and and and stuff like that. So the great work. We were actually fortunate enough to be able to do our engineer jobs, which doesn't happen a lot. Uh so we're talking peacetime army too. Sure. So we're not at war anywhere. So those opportunities were very far and few in between to get to actually do your job. Fort Drum, so this is when Fort Drum is gonna so the big army's thinking big things, and new 10th Mountain Division is coming, and they're gonna be at Fort Drum. And I I'm not aware of the big strategic stuff going on.

Host 48:19

Do they move from somewhere to Fort Drum?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

No, that's where they were activated. Oh so they're all reactivated because they deactivated them after World War II and then reactivate, and now they're gonna be stationed at Fort Drum. Or Camp Drum is what it was called then. And so they're gonna they need engineers to go to Fort Drum to do the initial land clearing and all this other stuff. So another great place to be to be an engineer, and I don't know who else I don't think there was another battalion, engineer battalion that did that. I don't remember new people being there, but we have to we have to move to camp drum and literally be on a construction crew, and on the construction crew, because some of the areas or most of the areas then we're building the roads that everybody's gonna use eventually. They're there, but they're just so it's a camp hadn't been used since World War II and all this other stuff. That's a National Guard, I think, reservist training camp, and 10th SF group used to use it for their training base or their exercise. So not there's a a company of MPs, a really small cantonment area, and we're the first major, like a full battalion of engineers, a full like first major huge unit to be there.

Host 49:31

So they PCS you guys up to up there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

And then then most of the stuff on the construct is just like a regular construction job, literally, but it's army construction job. So you you camp out on your construction site. So GP mediums go up and you live on your construction site, and so you're never in the cantonment area. And even then, like the PX to give you an indication of the this the activity that was on the base. It was a like a single-wide trailer, and it only opened when National Guard or reservists were training there or something, so it was never open, and it only had like a handful of snacks, crackers, and beer, right?

Host 50:37

And so that was kind of you were at a fob before it was called a fob.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and back in the day, we're eating C rations, not MREs. So a little trick to the trade there as an engineer on the exhaust, the exhaust pipes coming out of a D5 dozer, D10, whatever we're working on, is exactly the size of or it's a little bit larger, the diameter of the exhaust pipe, it's which is vertical. Is it is a little bit larger than a C ration can. So to heat your rations, you kicked up the throttle a little bit. So there's some you can drop the can inside your exhaust pipe, and it's hovering right there in the exhaust, heating up. Then you goose the gas a little bit, pop your can out, catch it, and you got a hot meal.

Host 51:22

Oh, that's hilarious, dude. I never heard that. How long were you at a drum?

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Oh, probably at least survived two winters there. Yeah. And a full probably a year and a half.

Host 51:37

Two years ago. Yeah, for those of you that don't know, Fort Drum, I think it's in northern New York. And it gets cold there.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Yeah, Lake Effects, that's when I figure out what Lake Effects are all about. Lake Effects snow. That's it. Yeah. You're a survivalist if you're living in that part of New York.

Host 51:54

Yeah, it's uh it gets you know biblical cold out there. Where did you end up going after Fort Drum? Fort Drum? Well, I tried to get to First Ranger Battalion. Oh, this is a great story. So you got to tell the story of, you know, you you you guys were doing something you saw like an airborne operation.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Yeah, so that airborne operation was in AIT when they marched us out to this at Fort Leonardwood, and they jump in the 82nd, and they're the engineer battalion from the 82nd. And that's that's when I'm asking the questions. Like, oh cool, I can't wait to get yeah, that's the next, right? And no, and I didn't sign up for that. And there were some guys, some guys that I was training with that actually did sign up for that, and they were actually going to the 82nd. I was like, oh, nobody told me about that. I was like, how do you how do you do that, right? So that was like another another thing I had to do later on and did, but yeah, Fort Drum, that's where that's where so 83 time frame, that's Grenada and all that stuff, right? And I'm hearing about this in probably Gung Hum magazine or Soldier of Fortune or something like that. I see that's what really the only place that you see pictures or anything, Rangers jumping, pictures of the Ranger jump, and uh Rangers in their OG 107s and a little steel pot that didn't do anything. I still don't know why we even wear those things useless for anything, really. You make soup in them, yeah, scramble eggs, make soup and shave, I guess, out of it. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And so those so those are the things I remember. I was like, Yeah, those are those are the dudes on the poster, right? That's that's like I want to get there. And so everybody that's asking me, or everybody that I'm asking, all the senior NCOs and stuff, and they're telling me that's like my sister, well, just just don't tell anybody, you don't, you know, because they're not gonna let you do it. Like if you tell them, they're not gonna say, Yeah, just sign out here and go sign in there, because they don't want to lose a body. So, you know, on the down low, right? Just go to the staff duty desk at night after after hours, and then you and your family head to wherever you want to go and get going. And they did it, they were doing it going back to Germany because that was the popular place to go. And so let me get this right.

Host 54:07

So back then, when you were in, you could just go to your company and sign out, and then go sign in to another company.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yeah, oh god, yeah, but you had to do it after hours because your first sergeant or anybody like that would like would not allow that.

Host 54:23

Yeah, I would assure most company commanders wouldn't be like, Yeah, just sign out and go go wherever you want. Well, you told me that story we're podcast prep, but I think I asked like four more follow-up questions because I was like, You you did what?

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Yeah, so you had to do it after hours because then you're you're only signing out, and they really don't the the the NCOs and the the lower enlisted guys like I was, they don't care and they do the same, they they know the process. They're like, all right, hey Roger, that you know but that's not something that was like talked about a lot that you could do, was it? Not overtly, no. Yeah, it was always like if you really want to do this, you know, you can either try this 4187, and if that doesn't go, then just after hours sign out. Explain to our audience the magical 4187. I still don't understand that thing. I don't think it was a thing. I think that was just like a hope, wish, and a dream. But it was a document that it still is a document that to my knowledge. Well, I'm I'm dated a well, but I mean when they were still using it when I was in too. And it's your official request form for either training or PCS moves or something, anything really. MOS changes or MOS any other MOSs you want to get. It's just it's a document that just it's your official request to do whatever it is you want to do. You want to go to jump school, you want to change your MOS, or you want to get initial additional MOSs. So I it's as an engineer, I think I ended up with like three or four engineer MOSs. Same thing. I don't want to get rid of my primary S. I want another MOS. This is what I'm requesting, and then that document goes forward, and it's your official request for do that, to do that kind of stuff. PCS changes, which is permanent changes station. Uh, if you wanted to go somewhere else, you requested where you wanted to go, when you wanted to go, and all that stuff on that form. And so that was the official answer I got. It was fill out a 4187, DA form 4187, and and it let it go through the process and it'll get approved or not. And I actually tried that and it was denied. To go to ranger regiment? I tried, yep, I tried ranger regiment and then I tried jump school and the air assault. So there's another school. So there was other schools actually filled that format. I knew about it. So that's how I got to air assault school. That's how I got to jump school, actually. But so that was change of MS. All these things that the air assault and and jump school, airborne school, those are temporary duty, TDY, and return kind of places. So when I requested Ranger Battalion, that's a one-way trip that I'm asking the army to do.

Host 56:55

Tell me uh tell our listeners about the like how you I think you were on CQ and you get the phone book and you decide, hey, I'm I want to go to the Ranger adjuvant.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Yeah, I think uh yeah, and I think it was so there's CQ and the company levels, and there's staff duty at the battalion level. I was in the battalion office, and that's why I even have access to this phone book.

Host 57:17

Well, and just so you guys know, CQ or uh is it charger quarters or change of quarters? Charge of Quarters. Charge quarters. Every, I think they still do it in the military today. Every company, battalion, division, brigade, there's one person, like if you're in a company, there's one person that's up for 24 hours, and then it's there's always somebody on CQ. It's a 24-hour thing where you sit during the day, you answer the phone, log people in and out, whatever, whatever. They still do it today in the military. So you'll have a staff duty NCO who you know is in charge for the brigade after hours, you know, whatever, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 57:47

Yep. I think at each major command, there's that person, and uh even at division level on on bases. So I was probably a PFC, maybe at most when I did that. So I was cleaning the building, that was my job that night. Mopping, buffing, buffing the floors, cleaning coffee pots, and all that stuff. So at one point, I'm done at like two or three o'clock in the morning, and I go sit down. And what am I gonna do? It's boring. I'm reading gung-ho magazines and soldier fortune magazines, looking at all this cool stuff going on, and I'm missing out. I'm like, I'm missing out on this stuff. That's where I wanted to go. I should have been there, right? I've already drove Dozers, man. I don't need to do that anymore. So the so that's that's really my career. It's like I see pictures that guys are doing stuff, it's like I should have been there. Why wasn't I there? Right? Or, you know, that's my first exposure to like that that I know that's what I want to do. And so as I'm looking through these magazines, and and there's the army phone book, and the everybody is in this phone book, and that's when I just started flipping through, and I I didn't know. I'm just looking at, okay, where's that? Where's this? You know, this is in Germany, and this is in wherever it is, and I get to this the uh 75th Rangers, and there's two battalions at the time, wasn't a regiment at the time, and first Ranger Battalion, there's first and second ranger battalion. First Ranger Battalion is first in the list on the phone book because they're first, right? Has the number one, and but also that's all that's all I that's all I read about. It's all I'm exposed to. They're in Georgia, and that's really I don't I don't really know I don't remember hearing about second ranger battalion in Washington or anything. So it was always first ranger battalion. First Ranger Battalion also is in Desert One, so you hear about them then, and those are the guys who were there then, so through Soldier Fortune.

Host 59:43

I mean First Range Battalion, was it Desert One?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Yeah, company or something like that.

Host 59:47

That was the failed hostage rescue in Iran.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Yep. So airfield seizure. They go, they were uh securing the airfields and stuff like that for all the makes sense, the crossloading and the all that stuff, the farps and all that stuff. So they're that's just where I wanted to go. It was just the in my mind the coolest thing ever. And so as I'm flipping through the the phone book, I was like, oh, they got phone numbers. I was like, here's your phone numbers. How cool is that? So I'll start making calls. It's like let me see if they answer somebody. I don't and I don't, I'm not even I'm not wise enough to think that there's somebody like me sitting on the other end of this phone, right, at three o'clock in the morning, because you know, I think I'm the only one up in the world, right? And I make a phone call and the PFC or whoever it was that answered the phone, Ranger somebody, you know, first Ranger Battalion. And I was like, holy shit, I got through. It's like, hey, how do I, how do I, how do I go, how do I be a ranger? I want to be a ranger. I'm trying to be just like you, bro. How do I get there?

Host 1:00:47

Can you give me this? Uh can you give me the roadmap at three in the morning?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

I wish I could remember those calls because uh, you know, it was a little I remember it like silence for a little bit, like I can only imagine. They're like, What, what? And so, and it was like a hold on a minute, I get the staff, the NCO, and then it's like, okay, where are you at? And I said, Fort Drum. And at the time, nobody's at Fort Drum. So not a lot of people know about Fort Drum. And Tens Mountain isn't activated yet and on Fort Drum. So a lot of times it was like, Well, where's that? I was like, upstate New York, you know, and yeah, how do how do I get how do I get there? How do I get to Georgia and First Range Battalion? And it was a wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on, wait a minute, hold on. I and they said, Well, okay, hey, call back in the morning. And I don't I'm pretty sure they said, and and that was another those those are other notes I wish I could find, because I know I have them somewhere. Because I was writing these notes when I talked to Sergeant Major Carpenter the next morning, and because I called back in the morning, like they said, and I said, I was told last night I talked to Sergeant So-and-so, and he said, Call back in the morning. I need to talk to Sergeant Major Carpenter. And these are all other Spec 4s, E4s at battalion headquarters and uh Hunter Army Airfield.

Host 1:02:05

You can't wonder too, man. They gave you the Sergeant Major's number, like they were messing with you, they had to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:10

Yeah, because you don't do that, you don't talk to Sergeant Majors and Colonels, your battalion level leadership. You you know, they they they gave you a spiel every once in a while, and that's all you saw.

Host 1:02:19

Right, you know, as an E3, you don't call the especially not in the 80s, you don't just call the command sergeant major for first ranger battalion. Yeah, who Sergeant Major Carpenter was a legend, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

Yeah, yeah, and he the the conversations that were happening to get to him finally get so an e4 gets an e6, e6 gets an e7, and e7 says, hold on a sec. And actually, uh the next guy is Sergeant Major Carpenter. And uh that seemed like first of all, it was a surprise to me that I'm gonna fold in Sergeant Major, First Ranger Battalion. And I was like, okay, I did it. Hey Sergeant Major, how I did it. I want to be a ranger. How do I how do I get to where you're at? How do you get in the first ranger battalion? And his f uh again, I'm gonna just from memory, it's like like who is this? And where are you at? And PFC, porous, you know, Fort Drum, 76th Engineer Battalion.

Host 1:03:19

I can't wonder what's going through his. Like, why am I talking to a private in Fort Drum who's an engineer?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Yeah, 76th engineer, what? Yeah, and he's like, okay, so and he so he's he cool on the phone? He was so he and he knows as a sergeant major, big army staff. And so he's like, so an engineer, what are you the only engine, what kind of engineer are you? And because and he explains he knows about 12 bravos, combat engineers, because he's got buddies who are combat engineers, and he's like, Are you a 12 Bravo as a combat engineer? I was like, That's one of my MOSs, but I'm a construction engineer and equipment. Sorry, explaining that. He's like, Well, we don't have those, but 12 Bravo, we could take you as a 12 Bravo. And I was so I and also so post-Grenada, right? Guys who I eventually the unit that I go to in the 82nd are actually on the jump team that go in with first bat into the airfield to clear all the engineer equipment on the airstrip. So that on those things I read about on in Gung Ho and Soldier Fortune, and so he understands that. That's probably his reference too, about what 12 Bravos were. But he said he knows some other friends of his that were 12 Bravos. So he was like, Okay, so this is what you gotta do. I'm ready with my notepad, and I start scratching down these notes. He's like, first you gotta get to jump school because he asked me that are you airborne qualified and all this other stuff. I said, Negative server major, and he's like, Okay, well, here's the deal: go to get get to jump school. He mentions this 4187, get in the jump school, and we'll just start there. Then you're gonna have to change your MOS uh to 11 Bravo. Okay, scratching this down, okay. Yep, yep, airborne school, 11 Bravo, and uh 11 Bravo is infantry for all of you out there 4187. This fill out the magical form. I was like, Oh, this is too easy. Yeah, this is too easy. And after my conversation with him, he's like, and do you have any more questions? I was like, you know, negative storm maker. I was like, appreciate your you know time on the phone and all this other stuff, all these niceties, and just the the conversation he had. He just sounded like an old like hard grisly guy, right? I was like, that's exactly the guys I want to work with, right? Yeah, and I started doing it. I and I actually get into jump school. And so you put in a 4187 and got ex got to go to jump school? And got jump school. And that that wasn't a well here's here's a here's an person that was I had to contact to do that though. So I put in a 4187, it gets denied. And it was just go to airborne school. I didn't know that once you go to airborne school, you can't just go to airborne school, go back to your your home unit. You're going to the 82nd Airborne, which is fine with me, but I didn't know that was just like the the thing, right? So when it was denied, that was why it was denied. We were there in Fort Drum to do a job that we can't lose anybody, and you can't you can't leave till whatever, whenever the job's done. I didn't know all those kind of things. Again, the strategic plans of the arm big army, I was totally clueless. And those are the that's why I'm getting denied all this stuff. So I write my congressman who's in California, who's congressman, or it was Panetta, Leon Panetta. He was your congressman, yeah.

Host 1:06:45

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

So I write him and say, Hey, I'm having trouble doing what I want to do in the army. I've talked to my chain of command, I've done all this other stuff. It's been denied. I didn't even know Panetta was a congressman. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was doing that for a while before he got into the Clinton administration. So he you write him a letter and he he does what? You get to go to jump school? Somehow, I don't know what happens, but it gets approved for me to go to jump school. And I was like, all right, check one off the off the list. I'm going to jump school. And I go to jump school and get my orders to go to Bragg, and every everything's going as planned. And I was like, exactly how I should be processing this checklist. And and I get to jump school, get the A second. As soon as I get the A second, it's like, when do I get my 11 Bravo MOS right? And I'm I'm so it's a replacement detachment you go to 82nd replacement detachment where you do all your in processing, you get your bray issued and all this other stuff, which is kind of cool. I'm thinking, yes, I'm where I want to be, right? Jumping out of planes and stuff, doing engineer work. So I was still an engineer and in airborne engineer, all the equipment's just smaller. It has to be, you know, at At the time, their C-130s and C-141s are the the heavy lift uh airdrop like fixed wing aircraft the army has or the air force has to do that kind of stuff. So they're small. I I guess it if there's a reference, the the CBs in the movie the the Green Beret, you see the small equipment they're doing to c do land clearing. So it's all D5, small, the small small stuff, D5 dozers and you know all these little pieces of equipment. So you airfield drop them out of a plane and build an airfield or roads. And the guys that jumped are still there. The guys that jumped in Grenada are still there. And so I was like, oh, these are the dudes that jump with the Rangers. Like that's what I'm gonna do next, right? Kind of thing. So I'm hitting them up. So the the I So you get out of replacement and get assigned to an engineer unit in the 82nd? Yeah, so there was a at the time it was the 307th Engineer Battalion, and the 618th Engineer Company is where I went to. So the 618th Engineer Company is kind of a separate entity of it in and of itself, like almost like a direct attachment to the 82nd. The 307th Engineer Battalion had you know all the other 12 Bravos, Combat Engineers, and all that other stuff. So it was kind of in in what was considered unofficially the bastard brigade of the 82nd Airborne, like all the direct support units. So I got to go jump out of planes, I'm with the grunts, I'm with you know, doing all this other stuff. I'm actually doing also the combat engineering, which is more explosives, demolitions, minefield clearing, all those kind of things. And but you're working directly with the grunts. So on all the exercises, you know, we're we're breaching huge obstacles, and then the grunts come through our breaching.

Host 1:09:51

You guys using Micklics back then? Or like Bangalores or oh yeah, Bangalores. Yeah. Oh yeah. The uh the can you explain to the audience what a Bangalore is? There's a lot of people probably don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

It's it's kind of oh that's been around forever, yeah. In the army inventory. So and saving Private Ryan, the initial scene in there, the engineers have Bangalore torpedoes. And so these are long tubular poles with filled with explosives, and then you can attach them end to end, and uh however long a usually it's a mine wire obstacle, but it could be anything, it could be berms, could be anything. So you attach these things as long as you need it, and then at the at the end of it, there's a there's a dummy piece, and you're just attaching dummy pieces so you can get some distance from it, and then it's it's explosives, it's a tubular, it's a pipe, like a three-inch, four-inch pipe filled with explosives, and you just keep shoving that, just shove it through whatever obstacle you're trying to breach, and prime it on the end and clack it off. Um big old explosives, it's huge, yeah. I can't remember the weight, the the net explosive weight of one tube, but usually there was more than one tube that you use on any any obstacle because just because of the length.

Host 1:11:09

Yeah, I started my career in a mech unit, and we would see the miclicks. A micklix is like a big tank, ex except it's got a rocket, like a launcher on it, and they would launch like a hundred feet of deck cord and then just like level a minefield. I remember seeing those at NTC. And then my buddy, who's a Marine that was in Fallujah and Ramadi, they used to shoot the Mick Licks down the street, I think, in in Fallujah to like blow the whole street up. So when I when you were talking about doing like combat clearing, that's where my brain goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:35

Yeah, and so since I was only light infantry, I guess you can say it. So airborne infantry, light infantry, I've never seen the micklicks because those are always in armored units. Yeah, but Bangalore torpedoes definitely.

Host 1:11:47

They said like a 12 Bravo initially, like on a full assault breach, their like life expectancy is like seven seconds, especially if you're doing like an armored engagement, because you know, the engineers go up, clear the minefield, and they're like, you know, of course, the enemy's trying to shoot all everybody that's you know trying to breach. And so that's a that's a dangerous job.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

Yeah, uh it's it's you know, direct support to the infantry, but it's really you're you're with the with the grunts. So all that stuff I was this was perfect. This is exactly where I want to be. Not quite, it's not first ranger battalion, but I'm on my way, right? And I'm getting the skills that I need to be in first ranger battalion. And then I so I do this also back then. This is we're talking early 80s, get to the 82nd, and there's guys in the sixth the engineer company that I'm in who were grunts, and they ETS for a more marketable skill to get out, and so they're going from infantry to engineer. And I get there, I'm an engineer, I want to be a grunt. How do I be like you? Like, bro, you don't want to go there.

Host 1:12:49

No, no, no, I'm trying to go there.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:50

That's what I that's what they're telling me. And they're like, that's not what you want to do. I was like, no, that's exactly what I want to do. And so they eventually hook me up with the the their former unit, which is 3rd Battalion 325th Infantry in the 82nd. And they're running what's called a expert infantry badge testing and training up, a train up and a testing. And back then also you can change your MOS by either the 4187 request that you go to school, whatever school that is, to get your MOS, your military occupational specialty, or you can do it OJT. And then there's some other classes you can take, uh correspondence course to to help you get another MOS. So OJT and correspondence course, certain there was always a criteria of how many what correspondence courses to take for your MOS is a lot of the soft skill MOSs were more applicable to correspondence.

Host 1:13:47

Well, back in the day, too, you had to take correspondence courses to get promotion points as well. Because to get promote E5, E6, depending on your MOS, you needed those. Yep. I remember those, dude. I hated those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:57

There was like a million of them, man. Yep. And so I did those, and uh the my buddy in the uh engineer company hooks me up with a third battalion, 325th, and I during their EIB prep and testing. So I go over there, and that's what you that was the culmination. If you were gonna change your MOS to 11 Bravo at the time, they were gonna hack off on you. It's like you do the train up, you were with us for the train up. We're talking like about three months worth of train up, and then at the end it's testing. And so everybody's going through their expert infantry stuff, and I'm I'm right there with them. I I train with them, pass, pass the EIB. I'm still an engineer, so I can't I can't be awarded it though. So because they that was another thing that they they were, I guess first time they ever exposed were exposed to that too. Like, okay, they it's like you can't be officially you can't be awarded this because you're not a you're not a grunt.

Host 1:14:52

Yeah, for all of our listeners out there, especially if you're 18, 19 and you're just joining the army, everything that Bob did, I highly wouldn't recommend to do that. Times have changed since then, but it's definitely a route, you know, it was definitely Bob's route. Not the more most efficient way to do things, but yeah, I got there. Dude, you didn't take no for an answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

I mean, that's there's you know, it's really that's the secret, right? Yeah, exactly. And uh the uh so I get that, and then as they're finding out how to award me the expert infantry badge so I can finish my in my MOS and get it officially on my records and become a grunt, then then I'm out going first Ranger Battalion, going to Hunter Army Airfield to sign up. I got the checklist, bro. I got the checklist, and so everything comes back, and people are checking for me. The personnel NCOs and officers that were helping me do this processing, they eventually tell me that well, you can't get your MOS that way anymore. You have to go to schoolhouse to do all these MOSs, including 11 Bravo Infantry. I was like, okay.

Host 1:15:56

So bro, I've been doing that for the last three months.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

When do I go? I I already qualified and I already did everything you got your EIB, but you gotta go to infantry school, right? And the and big army wants me to go to uh Fort Benning to AIT essentially with all these new army dudes that just went through basic training, right? So that was another thing for the infantry school to have me as a probably an E4. There was a couple of us. There was a an 11 hotel who's a tow gunner who wanted to change the MOS to 11 Bravo. There was a excuse me, there was an 11 Mike who was a bad Bradley driver. He wanted an 11 Bravo as primary. So so we're all I think he he that dude was actually an E5. We want to be 11 Bravo. So we show up at Fort Benning. And Did they know you're coming? Like you put a 4187 or you just sign out of your unit? It was a it was an official move to do the training, and so it was a TDY and return. So we're supposed to go to Benning, get our MOS, and come back. I thought I was going to 3rd Battalion, 325th, and I just always thought that they didn't it we it wasn't a permanent change of station, it wasn't PCS. So TDY and return, okay. Well, I guess I'm going to 325th.

Host 1:17:10

Also, you don't have orders to go to base train, they just give you, they just put you on TDY.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

No, yeah, it was TDY orders to to go there specifically to change our MOSs. And there's there's four or five of us there. There's a couple 11 mics, the 11 mics, Bradley Drivers Hotel. He was also from the 82nd. We actually went through EIB training together and we're in the same pipeline. And we show up armored, armored guys, you know, they're they look armored guys, right? You know, just whatever, you know, not quite the tip top shape and all that stuff. So me and my buddy from the 82nd, you know, we have our braise, we have our shaved heads and all that stuff, starch BDs and all that stuff. We show up at Benning and we're like, Yep, reporting in, right? And they know that we're coming and they're they're still trying to figure out where to place us. Like, because basic training for grunts, basic training AIT, there's no separation. You don't stop like for us, there's a definitely stop at at in basic training. You move to another barracks and then you start your your skill training. But infantry just they go straight through. And so they were trying to figure out well, you we can't we can't put you in we can't put you in like in the second week of basic training. They're still learning how to march, right? And all these other things. So eventually we lucked out. So me and one of the 11 mics, my buddy that came with me, the hotel, they put us in like the the end phase where they're doing their end of cycle testing, is what they called it. They're it's like EIB training again. EIB testing. And that's really what it was for us. That's how I kind of equated it. They're getting ready to t to take their test at the to get their MOS as the 11 Bravo. So we get there about two or three weeks before the end of their whole training phase. And yeah, just really we didn't we didn't we went to the training, but the the drill sergeants that were there, it was kind of benefit to them because we already knew how to march troops and all that stuff. So we really we took the companies to training every day, marched them to training, and then marched them back, and the drills were there and they checked on us and all that stuff. But I was they were happy to see us there, and we just kind of just ran ran the the platoons and the companies through the training. And I was kind of neat. I kind of had a pretty good experience with all that stuff, and they were asking us the whole way because we were already, and it's not like we were learning anything because we already knew what neat we needed to do. So the classes that we took, you know, weren't that hard. How to how to how to throw a grenade, which figured out how to do that, right? Oh, yeah. So throw those things and qualify on all these things. And for us, it was like we just did this to get our EIB, so it's like this is what you guys are doing. So this is how to, you know, kind of you can't really game the that kind of training, but just relax, it's gonna be fine, it's not hard, you know, that kind of stuff. So being the older guys there, just kind of just ran them through that whole thing, got our MOS and graduation, all that stuff. Congratulations, you get your blue rope, infantry cord, and all that stuff at graduation. And the hotel that was with me, though the the guy that came from Bragg with me. So I think I'm going back to Brag too. And everybody's getting their orders, and I was like, oh, I already know where I'm going. Because they're calling off everybody, you know. Last name, you know, 11 Bravo, you got, you know, congratulations, you're going to Fort Whatever. And somebody else, yeah, Levin Hotel, congratulations, you're going, 11 Charlies, the mortar guys. Yeah, congratulations, you're going to this this base. And they call my name. Specialist porous and Fort Ord, California, 7th Infantry Division. And I was like, What? How did that happen, right? I was like, oh, there's gotta be a mistake. So I get my sheet thinking, Fort, I don't even know that there's an army base in California, first of all. And the 7th Infantry Division was just activated. So I don't know anything about the 7th Infantry Division.

Host 1:21:23

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SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

What's going through your head, dude? Something's wrong. Again. And that's not the path I thought I was going to take. So I'm already thinking, well, I should be going like Georgia to Georgia, transfer, or at least go to Bragg and then to Georgia back to on our Army Airfield, right? But also, big army stuff. 75th is now regiment because after Grenada, they get their 3rd Battalion, and now it's a range of regiment. And 3rd Battalion and Regiment Headquarters is at Benning. So when I see this thing, and they 3rd Battalion's?

Host 1:23:09

I thought it was 1st Battalion was. I thought 3rd Battalion went to Hunter Liggett.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:13

No, 1st Battalion's in Hunter Army Airfield still. And 3rd Range Battalion is at Benning, and 2nd is in Washington State. And Regiment Headquarters is at Benning, too. Ranger Memorial, everything's at Benning. Home in the infantry. And yeah, so I see the 7th Infantry Division, Ford Ord. I don't know what that is. I've never heard of it. Been in the Army for four years. I should know everything at this point, right? Spec four. So specialists, you know, spec fours know everything. And four mafia. They run the army, right? And so didn't hear about it, don't know what it is. It's not where I wanted to go. Nobody know nobody I'm talking to knows what that is. So no, I'm not going to do that. So I'm back back to what I know, and I just go sign in. I'll just find wherever regiment headquarters is now and go sign in there, and I'm good. And so when we signed out, graduated, signed out, got our orders, and we're we're supposed to, you know, go home, plan for a PCS move and all that stuff. And I just literally walked, took a cab, and then walked to what was now the new headquarters of 75th Ranger Regiment. And hey guys, I'm here. Signed in, right? So that was this janky. It was a barracks. It was a three-story old barracks that where they first started, the headquarters. And in the Kotoman area, it wasn't far from jump school. And I don't even think those buildings are still there anymore. They've done a lot of reconstruction of Fort Bennington, that main post is kind of Fort Benning. But it was a three-story building. It's like a regular barracks building was their headquarters. That's where I signed in. And the only the only way you can recognize it was there was a fence with the the green little whatever the coverings are. So you can't see in, but but you see everything from the outside. So the pull-up bars and everything else, Ranger scrolls everywhere. It's like, yes, this is where I'm this is where I need to be, right? I'm going down my checklist and push the little button on the gate to get in. And it's those janky little, you know, intercoms. Intercom speakerphone thingies. And it's like yin yay and it's sparking. Yeah, I mean, it was just like janky. And it's a chainley fence with the green screen around it. So I it's kind of like like who's there kind of thing. Who's there? What do you want over the intercom? And I specialist porse reporting in. I want to be a ranger. And then silence. And then you hear the little metallic thing release, like click, click. It's like I'm in. The then it was more of a questioning, and it's like, wait a minute, give me I need to talk to you face to face. So as I approach the steps to the barracks, the NCO comes out and he's like, what is it you want? And I was like, I want to be a ranger. I want to be a ranger, sir. And I'm I'm addressing him, you know, properly. But as he's doing this, right, he's putting on his his brain. I was like, this is this is it, man. I'm there. I'm here, right? This is the beginning of where I wanted to be. I'm getting ready to check that off on my list, right? And he says, wait a minute, he goes back inside for a sec, and he comes back out, and he in uh I got I guess you this is a small little smoke session that's gonna start and unbonounced to me at the time. I'm getting all motivated. He's back and he's got a clipboard. And I was like, all right, the clipboard says front, back, go. You know, he's just smoking me, doing uh push-ups so I can't do push-ups anymore. And if you really want to be here, kind of thing. So that's kind of the what he's saying along the way. And I'm doing push-ups on the stairway, you know, upside down, obviously. My head's on the low side, my feet are up, and qualifying myself on the tree that was in the courtyard. I'm doing pull-ups, push-ups, and when I can't do that anymore, I'm doing the dying cockroach and all this other stuff. That's the resting position, right? And all these iron chair things, and I just it was really. So I wanted to be there so bad, and I wanted to do all these things really in my career so bad. It's like uh in my mind, I'm like, you can't do anything to me right now to discourage me, or I'm not gonna quit. It's like yeah, if I die, then I don't have any control of that. Yeah, yeah. But I'm not quitting. You can do anything you want.

Host 1:27:47

In my mind, you got rangers in heaven, let's die, and then try to ranger school in heaven.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

And they they made sure I was at muscle failure on everything that I was doing, and so there was never enough push-ups or pull-ups, sit-ups. Oh man, duck walks, they had me doing all kinds of stuff and donkey kicks and everything else. And this is you and this dude with the clipboard? Yep, he's like a staff trying or something like that. And the whole time he's calmly asking me, you know, as I'm you know, in my resting position and the dying cockroach, and my hands and legs are just so worn out, I'm shaking. You really want to be here? And just Roger's hard, and you know, Rangers lead the way. I'm doing all the you know the right things and all this stuff. And just in my mind, I was like, whatever you got, bring it, because this is where I want to be, right? And and eventually they he stops and he says, you know, on your feet, and I'm standing here at parade rest at the bottom of these stairs, and then it's E7 comes out, he's the personnel officer, and he's gonna sign me in. I don't know who he is or what he's doing, but that's eventually what happens. And as we're walking into the building, he I it was either like, how bad do you want to be here? kind of thing, like, are you serious? You know what you're getting ready to do, kind of stuff, and you know where you're at. And I'll and I was like, Rogers are I'm exactly where I want to be. And then he told me to get on the ground and start low crawling. So I'm low crawling through the the barracks floor, it's an admin floor, right? The where the administration's offices are, and people are walking past me like that's nothing. Like they're not even paying attention to me. I'm on I'm low crawling the floor, they don't look at me like it's okay, that's weird. Or oh, somebody's screwed up, somebody getting smoked, right? They just look at me, they don't even pay attention to me. They were walking like normal business just going on. And I was like, everybody's walking around, you know, and and I noticed the Ranger scrolls and the the they're wearing hind tights at the time. I think they're more relaxed screaming standard, I think, right now, but back then it was hind tights and all that stuff. And I was like, whatever it takes. And I get to the get to the desk where he's gonna sign me in, and he says, he's standing at a like a desk or a like a platform or like a countertop. And I'm in I'm low crawling up to the countertop and I stop there. And I'm laying laying down like I should be in low crawl. And he's like, sign here, sign on, sign on whatever line it was. Tells me something like that. I'm trying to think, how am I going to do that? If I'm down here in the prone. And he starts yelling at me, like, get on your feet. What are you doing? So then that was the end of the smoke session. And I sign in, and he says, okay, so regular sign in procedures. I'm signing all this stuff and signing for stuff. And the the first thing that has to happen is you go to RIP, Ranger Indoctrination Program at the time. It's called RASP now. So I have to go to RIP. And because I was an E4, I have to go to what was called ROPE. So Ranger Orientation Program was rope for apparently E4s that were going to be promotable. I'm going to go in a leadership position. So I got to go to Rope and RIP. RIP first, then rope. And it was right across the it wasn't too far from there, actually. It was Cardiac Hill is a is a place everybody who's been in that part of Fort Benny. I think they run it in jump school too. Cardiac Hill, that's where the rip detachment was. And so get a ride from the the staff duty driver that was there. I get a ride over there and then in process, I get stuff issued. Same day? Yep. I'm gonna I'm gonna go enter this rip class and start training. And to me, man, I was just the happiest person ever. I finally made it. And I don't know which battalion I'm gonna go to, but I asked that question too. It's like so, and then it was just like, well, you gotta get through this first, and we'll talk about that later.

Host 1:31:54

And are you married at this point?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:55

Yeah. Oh, so you got a wife? Yeah, any kids? I have my daughter, and at the time, too, when I was in at Fort Bragg, I had another daughter, but she passed from SIDS. So my wife and daughter are there at Benning. And that that's even how I find out that I'm AWOL eventually. So I go through rip, rope. I'm living in town in Columbus, Georgia. Oh, let's let's let's not go too fast.

Host 1:32:24

This is so she comes out with you to Fort Benning while you're at airborne school, and then you you you go sign into the regiment and they put you straight into rip. How long before you get into the rip class?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:36

So when I get to rip and rope, that's when they moved to Columbus. So because I thought I was going back to Bragg. Yep. So I thought that was an easy thing, you know, whatever this Ranger indoctrination program. Okay.

Host 1:32:48

How long was it back then? Three weeks?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:50

I think so. Yeah, and and rope was four weeks, I think.

Host 1:32:54

Are both of those like as I mean, we've had other rangers on here at Rips just a smoke session with some patrolling. How was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:02

Yeah, it's a do you want to be here? Yeah. Three weeks, three weeks of do you want to be here? Yeah. Couple of jumps and you know, normal stuff like that. You guys do any patrolling or anything?

Host 1:33:11

Any of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:33:13

Yeah. Uh you so small unit tactics. You do a little bit of that just to see how you're gonna be able to perform and function. And literally, it's the it's the minutiae things at the time. We're wearing uh load-bearing equipment, LBE stuff, the old suspenders and the belts and teens, ammo pouches, yeah. And it was double basic, so you had four ammo pouches. Oh, really? Not just the regular two like everybody else. So then it was like, yes, I uh yeah, this is where I need to be, right? And uh the smoke sessions and all that stuff. So in my mind too though, I was like, whatever, bring it. This is exactly where I want to be, and you can't do anything to discourage me at this point. How many people were in your rip class? Do you remember? I mean, you probably don't remember exactly. It's it's probably a company worth of people, so 120, maybe several platoons of worth of people. Was the attrition high? Yeah, yeah. If they left, from what I recall, they left in the first week. Then it was just a standards thing after that. Then it was like ones and twos that were just like, hey, you're just not getting it, or you're you're not hanging with whatever it was mostly physical, like endurance endurance thing. Yeah, constantly. So a lot of guys left after the first week. And so some of those guys, too, though, signed signed up to do that, and some of them signed up or volunteered because you can volunteer in infantry school for uh ranger airborne options. So you can if you didn't do it when you first came in, you can still have an opportunity. They gave you opportunities to do that. Didn't that didn't happen to me when I was an engineer? So some of them came in and they volunteered once they got to basic trainer AIT, whenever that was offered, go to jump school, go to go to rip, go to ranger battalion. I don't uh they didn't have contracts direct like that yet.

Host 1:35:02

What was the biggest difference between rip and rope?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:04

So rope's more of a leadership thing. You're you're do going over policies and you know, ranger regiment, a lot of policies, SOPs and tactical stuff, you know, more or less getting you. So if you left Ranger Battalion at the time and you came went to regular army and then you came back, and that was pretty common if you wanted to make rank and you had to do usually it was platoon sergeant time when you got to that level. You got to do platoon sergeant time, first sergeant time, sergeant major time, if that's what you did. Sergeant Major Guerrero was one of those guys who was there at the time. So he left to do his get his E8, E9 time in the regular army, because just because there's not enough space in the battalions at the time. So he leaves, does that, comes back. And I think he was gonna be regimental sergeant major at the time. So all those kind of people. So all the officers they're going through this that are going that are trying to get in the range battalion, they're going through the same thing. Whether they were there first time or they're coming back from somewhere. And very academic standards, protocols, SOPs, and policies and stuff like that. Uh, missions, type of missions. This is this is how we do it here in Regiment. And that was that was that was very academic. Of course, you had your normal stuff, normal morning PTs and all that stuff. Very almost daily life kind of stuff. But yeah, rip was just Are you living in the barracks or are you living because your wife's moved? Dude, Rip and Rope. I think I had moved the family, I think I had an apartment at that point. But during that time I was there. You live there, yeah, in a barracks. And yeah, almost positive they were living there at the time in Columbus. I know I had an apartment. During that whole time frame, I didn't spend a lot of time there. So that was I didn't realize it then, but this is like daily life in the in a ranger battalion, and it would have worked out, or it wouldn't work out the same way because we ended up getting divorced anyway. So I don't think it was anything that the army would have done that created that, maybe well, contributed somewhat, but that was really just our relationship. I mean, if you have a relationship, you do or you don't, and I don't I I don't really put a lot of weight on the lifestyle doing that. Because if you have a good relationship, it's a good relationship, regardless. But there that that that was probably her part of her her concerns. I mean, you're never here, you're never concentrating, you never hear when you're here, you know, you know, mentally you're never here when you're home and all that stuff.

Host 1:37:34

So I'm sure that that's something we've talked a lot about on this podcast. It's hard to be really good at both. It's hard to be really good, you know, yeah in the military and be really good at home because it at some point they're competing for your time. So some dudes figure it out. Like I I know it's it's a struggle though to be some dudes, yeah, they do. So there are people who who are able to do that. But I also do think like not always pretty either, though. No, but to your point too, man. I mean, the wives, you know, I think sometimes they don't know what they're signing up for versus the wives who know exactly what they're signing up for and they're super supportive, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:08

Yep, and here's here's here's a here' a a thing too. And there's a uh there's a there's a movie that kind of captures this thing, and it was it was about a firefighter. But it's like so all so when I think, you know, you fortunate enough for me and lucky for me, I guess, I've been able to uh learn from the good and the bad things that I've done, good or bad. You know, owned it, take responsibility for it, you know, be accountable to myself for it and to my family or if it's my family or or my my teammates, right? Be responsible, accountable for your actions. And then kind of so that that requires you to do honest assessment of what just happened, right? So you have the formal things that you do in the military after action reviews and stuff like that, where you reflect back on what do we do good, what do we do bad, what do we need, what do we need to do better next time, right? Or if it's the same thing, then okay, it's the same thing. It was all good, we're gonna do the same thing again. So when I think about it and I hear guys talk about it now too, it's like so g getting to where I've been getting, where I got to eventually, it's like I put total hundred percent concentration effort, everything into that to get to where I went. But if you think about some of the guys that heard along the way that didn't try out for certain things, either SF or the unit or something like that, mostly it was SF, or why didn't they do certain things? And they would say, Well, kids and family were more important than my career. And so they did the same thing for their families that I did for the army and myself, really, selfishly. You know, this is what I want to do. I was so focused on that, and how and really all the whole way through my army career. How do I be, how, how do I get to be a better soldier, right? Already where I need to be. And every step of the way, I was so I I guess the commonality too of all the unit guys that end up there, they're the best at what they were doing all before they got there. So, and everybody says that about them. So what and they're not all grunts, they're not all SF guys, and they're all rangers, and they're coming from across the army in different skill sets, and but they were the best at that job, and everybody says that. It's like, well, it it's it's a no-brainer. It's like, oh, that's not surprising. He was the best, best guy we had, right? And so those guys are the ones who end up at the unit. It's not it's not always the best grunt, it's not always the best SF guy. It's it they were the best at whatever it is they were doing. So even on the support side, those guys that end up on the support side of the unit, they're the best at what they did. Administratively, whatever it is, they're the best. They're mechanics. They were the best mechanics in their previous unit, and they wanted to be better. And so everybody across the way that that's the that's the the the I guess the single most thing that you can say about the unit, it's like everybody there, no matter what their job is, they are the best at it.

Host 1:41:02

So you finish rope, well, rip and rope, and then you get assigned a third time. I wish.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:09

So that's what I that's so I'm E4, and I can't go to a battalion unless I'm got my tab, my ranger tab. Oh so I finished rip, rope.

Host 1:41:19

So that's how it was back then? You you'd finish rip rope, then you had to go straight to ranger school?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:23

Yeah.

Host 1:41:23

So were they put you in like a holding area to the next school?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:25

Or I just stayed at at rip detachment and then entered. So I ended up going to uh since ranger school starts and ends there. I would go to the each ranger class, and then I didn't get a slot, I didn't have a slot. I just went there and waited for somebody to fail out the PT test, and then I jumped into their slot. So Yeah, tell us that story.

Host 1:41:47

What's that like?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:48

You went to you went to Ranger School like three times or four times, or yeah, I think three or four, so something like that. So there's back in the day, and I met my one of my cadre when I the first couple of times I go, they had them what was called the Morgan team at the time. And so it's it's the first couple weeks that you're at Benning and you sign in, you have you go to the Morgan team. That was like the first week of so it's like a hell week kind of thing. And the Morgan team is the one who's doing it. And it's just smoking you all the time, and uh whatever you're doing, it's the opportunity to smoke you. That's those those guys all screaming at you, hollering at you, and stuff like that. And I remember this, I always remember this one guy. He's a black guy, had glasses, and just because of that, he stood out. And he he was he was pretty he was pretty hard, dude. Man, he was he was an ass. And but it was like, you know, okay, bring it. You know, I can do so many push-ups, you know, and you're doing hundreds of them. And it's like, well, yeah, until I fall on my face, I'm gonna keep doing it. So tell the story, because you never got kicked out of ranger school.

Host 1:43:01

This is where this is where your army career starts, all of these signing ins and signing outs and 4187s. This is kind of all where it comes ahead. Tell the story of like screeching halt. Yeah, tell the story of coming in and out of ranger school, like what was going on, what was happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:15

So there were two classes, I want to say, two or three classes I had been in when this happened. So I get in and I and the first one goes by, and I'd already, while I was in Rip and Rote, already finding out that I'm not getting paid and stuff like that. But okay, fill out this form, go to go to main post, get paid. There's a term for that, I can't remember what it is. So I could I'd do that and a couple times, it's not a big deal. Okay, I'm transitioning, I'm moving around and stuff like that. And okay, okay, I will wait for that to catch up. And that's what they're telling too at the pay cages and stuff like that. Don't worry about it, it'll catch up to you. You'll they'll eventually you're gonna get paid out of regular.

Host 1:43:52

But you would go to Ranger School and make it to like a certain phase.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

Yeah, except the first one. So I couldn't leave Benning. So there was the Morgan team, City Week, which is a lot of the initial entry into patrolling and communications and stuff like that. You're learning all the individual skills, like EAB A testant again, and then you do the Derby Queen, and you you know the obstacle course at uh Ranger School, PT Pits, the Bear Pits, the hand combatives, all that stuff. So you go through all that, and then then you go to at the time, I think we're at it was like you had desert phase, Florida phase, and mountain phase. And at the time, I think it was Dougway. It was either Dugway or Bliss. So, in order to leave there, so the guys who are airborne qualified jump into the next training site, and then if you're not jump qualified, because there are people that go to ranger school who aren't airborne qualified, they get some truck transported however they get there. That was never in my situation, so I don't know how they actually do that. But so probably on the plane that everybody jumps out of, and then you just land and everybody gets out that didn't jump, walks off the plane. So I do that two or three times, and then the class that I'm in, the last class I'm in has a it's during a Christmas break. So everybody actually naturally gets a Christmas break.

Host 1:45:12

Let me explain because you you say casually, you did that two or three times. So two or three times you actually walk onto ranger school, pass the PT test, get smoked, go through the whole first couple weeks, and then try to go TDY to Fort Bliss, and you can never go TDY because they can't figure out your your orders.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:29

Yeah, yeah. And that was finally what's told to me, but it's told to me. So I go to the Christmas break, and my wife and kid are in Columbus, Georgia now, and she's the one that told me again, it's like, okay, we didn't get paid again. It's like, okay, let me go fill this paperwork out and fill out the paperwork. So we're on a break, a Christmas break. So I'm back in my OG 107, starched, black beret, shaved head, got my Switchine jungle boots on, and I fill out the paperwork and go to the pay cage like I have been doing. And there's an issue with paying me. And so the the PFC or E4 at the at the window starts this process of getting there's something wrong here. I need to get somebody else. I need to get my my boss. NCO comes out, looks at what she's look, whatever she was looking at, and looks at me, looks back, like, hold on a sec. So this happens another time, and eventually a major comes out and papers in his hands, and he's looking at what everybody's, you know, what's your what's your issue here? And then he looks at the paperwork, looks at me. So high and tight. And you've been in the ranger regiment for what, like 10 months? Yeah, yeah. Oh, easily. I think it was longer than that.

Host 1:46:54

So, like in between you going to Ranger schools, you're still going out and doing exercises with them, training. Yeah, it's like you're in the regiment.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:00

So when I'm waiting for the ranger schools, the ranger classes I'm in, it wasn't back to back. So it was like, well, okay, we'll put you in the next class. Okay, and then so do exercises and jumps and everything else there on Benning and regular daily life stuff. And they're trying to figure out. So they were trying to figure out too the where where the where they were gonna put me. They were saying, well, once you get to ranger school, uh, and there was the they didn't they didn't have a name for it yet. So it was new in the regiment at the time, the uh ranger reconnaissance department division, what it was RRD. RRD, right? Yeah, so there was a ranger reconnaissance detachment, if I remember.

Host 1:47:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:38

Yep. And they were trying to figure out what to name it because they it was like like long-range surveillance detachments is what 82nd and 101st had in their divisions, so that was an actual structured organization, and they wanted to be different, right? So it was like, what are we gonna call this thing? So that was during that time frame, they're like, Well, once you once you pass ranger school, we'll talk about it. But and those are the guys I was hanging out with on these exercises because it's like who am I gonna be attached to during this exercise? And it was gonna be a battalion, so it was gonna be the ranger regiment, and so it was RD guys. So I'd do the jumps and train with those guys and just hang out with those guys while I'm waiting for another class. And yeah, eventually, it was so I mean, I was there in my mind, I was like, I finally made it, right? So you so all my check, all my boxes on my starter major list were checked, right?

Host 1:48:30

I finally made it. So you're at the finance cage, you haven't gotten paid a couple times, you've had to go to the finance shop a couple times to get paid. You go there to get paid, you're on Christmas break. The E4's like, hey, we're gonna have to call somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:43

Yeah, and then the major finally, and so I I it's it's it's a finance office, it's a pretty busy place, and there's a lot of people there, and there's MPs there. There's they're just that's where MPs are because it's a finance pay cage area. So the it's it's it's not an unfamiliar thing to see MPs in the in the finance offices or parked out front or something like that. And the major finally says, You're gonna have to go with these gentlemen. I saw them walking in. I just thought they were here like everybody else, either pay something, or they're it's like police officers uh, you know, anywhere else. So just that's where they hang out. So you're gonna have to go with these gentlemen. I looked around, I was like, uh what the like the MPs? And the one dude grabs my behind my arm. It's like, what's going on here, right? And they take me to the MP station. Did you get cuffed up? Did I put you in handcuffs in the whole nine yards? They didn't cuff me. Oh I've got a ride to the MP station, and then that's that's the first time they they tell me, or that's the first time I hear that what like what's happening, right? What's going on? What what did I do? You know, and then eventually they tell me, uh, well, you're you're you're AWOL, you're you're whatever that list is. The there's a I I I guess I equate it to like a there's a warrant out for your arrest kind of thing.

Host 1:50:07

Oh, literally, that's what happens when you go AWOL. For those of you out there that are listening that don't know what AWOL is, AWOL is an acronym, it's absence without leave, and it's a pretty big deal. It's basically you're absconding from the army. So what happens nowadays is they actually issue a federal arrest warrant and you get prosecuted. So yeah, I mean it's a it's a really big deal. I can't imagine back then it was probably an even bigger deal. Um here you are, you've like been in the Ranger Regiment for over a year, and now like you've been trying to go to Ranger School three, four times. And I don't know if you explained it, but what happened was is every time you'd get to a certain phase, they couldn't pull, they couldn't pull your orders, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:50:42

Yeah, so every every move you make in ranger school, it's a TDY. So it's a TDY and within a TDY. I couldn't be on official, they couldn't cut me orders because of whatever this glitch. What the glitch is they they know in the in the they can't cut me orders because I'm on AWOL status, but that's not being described to me, that's not being explained to me. I just can't get orders.

Host 1:51:04

So the Ranger Regiment, like nobody up at the personnel section was ever like, hey dude, like you never by the time you're like third or fourth time in a range, aren't you like, hey bro, I'm getting tired of doing this?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:14

Well, everybody's thinking what I what they what they think is happening is you're you're transitioning, your PCS and or whatever it is, you're you're you're in transition. And this that's a common thing too for you to miss a couple of paychecks when you get to your duty station because finance has to catch up with you. So that was kind of common. And so that's what everybody thinks thinks thinks is happening. There's no they're not digging into why that I'm not getting paid, and I don't get my direct deposit and all that stuff. Nobody's checking into that. They're just like, okay, that's that's normal. You're moving, you're in transition, that they'll catch up to you. Don't worry about it. You'll just have to keep doing this, unfortunately, till it catches up to you or until they arrest you for being wall in my case. And then the as I'm sitting there in the MP, I didn't go and get it processed into a cell or anything, but I'm sitting there waiting to be processed, and so. I don't know what AWOL soldiers look like, but I'm pretty sure I didn't look like one. And with my starch RD107, Spit Shine boots, high-and-tight haircut, my black beret, range regiment scroll on my shoulder, and all this other stuff, jump wings, I got the whole thing going on. I don't think I would look like a typical stolen stolen bell or soldier. But I was in the MP station. And the the since I was attached to the Rip Detachment, the headquarters regiment, they're the ones who came to the MP station and said, he's not AWAL, he's been with us the whole time, the humina humana, and we'll get you the paperwork that you need and all that stuff. And then took me back to regiment headquarters. And then they've that's when they started figuring out, like, okay, we need to dig into this. Because you we know where you've been this whole time. So we just got to figure out what they're seeing. And eventually what they're seeing is so the well, I'm at the uh the whatever you call that, branch headquarters, 11 infantry branch headquarters there on Benning. And so most of the guys, most of the NCOs and officers that were checking into my situation, they're thought, okay, this is an easy one. I'll just go to whatever, whatever floor, talk to this person, and we'll get it squared away. So that's what they told me, and they did that, and they were like, and they came back eventually, several attempts of that happening, and they eventually came back and said, Well, there's a thing that we can't we don't have clout to to pull you from where they want you to go, which is 7th Infantry Division. And right now that's the priority in the army. They're even losing guys from Ranger Battalion, Ranger Regiment, a 2nd Airborne Division to go, I guess, start the cadre for these light infantry divisions and stuff like that. So 10th Mountain and 7th Infantry Division. So they're losing guys because of that. So I'm I'm the new guy, so I'm I'm probably the first one on the chopping list. Like, you got to give us 10 guys. Well, we're not gonna get rid of our most experienced guys, so let's get these guys in limbo and send those guys. So that's that's eventually kind of my take on how I ended up in that in that position. So basically I tell you, you've got to go to four order, there's no getting out of it. Yep. Yep. And and your AWOL status can't be cleared until you get there. So I was like, I don't know, the coercion, I guess. I don't know what to do this for us, or you're not getting paid. It's like, okay, so I out process, everybody's like, everybody's very good at at Regiment headquarters there. The rich rip detachment NCOs and all that stuff, they're like, hey man, this kind of sucks, you know. It's and they're telling me all these things, and hey, when you get to your unit, well, you know, and you want to come back and you're thinking, you know, do this 4187 and ask to come back and all that shit. And very good. They were they were good to me.

Host 1:55:04

Were you when you had to leave Benning, were you like pissed? Or like what was it? Yeah. Yeah, I was pissed. You spent a lot of work to get there.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:11

Yeah. Dreams, dash, done, just snatched away from me. I was I was pissed. And I didn't know, I didn't know what 7th Infantry was.

Host 1:55:21

I didn't that kind of change your idea on the army, like did were you were you mad enough, like, hey man, I might do something else, or no.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:32

So still thinking, okay, this isn't what I want, but this is what I have to do. Let me get this out of the way. And as soon as I get there, I'm gonna still try to get back. And that's some of the some of the NCOs that were in charge at the regiment headquarters are saying too. They're like, well, okay, well, you you gotta go do this. You can't, you can't, you don't have any other options, you gotta go do this, so you're gonna have to go there, but they will will welcome you back if you if for some reason you get there and you request to come back and it's approved, then we'll take you back. I was like, so that was good enough for me to, you know, I guess stay motivated to try to get back.

Host 1:56:15

Little did I know I was gonna get wasn't gonna be able to do that. If you had to summarize the lesson you learned from being like the invisible AWOL soldier into one sentence for young NCOs, what what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:27

Oh, now, now probably doesn't happen as much as it did then. I don't know. Don't quit, I guess. Don't quit, ask more questions. Yeah, it I mean, if you so for me, if you want to do something bad enough, there's nothing that's gonna stop you. If you're that motivated, and it's really what you want to do, there's nothing that can stop you. And and that's that's my mindset through the whole thing.

Host 1:56:53

How how did that like event shape how you you know deal with run whatever when it comes to like admins or records for your men later on? Like, did you have your own personal checklist? Or I mean, because now you've really starting to find out how the army works.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:09

Yes. So guys in the 7th Infantry now that I'm in charge of are there's I they're asking, there's there's those guys just like me, like, I want to go to jump school, how do I do that? I want to go to ranger battalion, I want to go to ranger school, how do we how do I do that? Just handle a phone book. Now I am supporting them wholeheartedly on their attempts to get there, but through the official thing, but I'm also talking to the approving officials and saying, I know we're gonna be at a loss for one soldier, but we'll get another one. And this guy, this is where he needs to be. And he's got the motivation, the skills, the drive to be where he needs to be. So and I talked to several levels up, all the way to like brigade level, on approving these things for guys to go to jump school, guys to go. There's a couple guys went to uh not necessarily ranger school because that was another selection process. 7th Infantry had to get slots for ranger school. So you had to go with what they had their own pre-ranger course and all that stuff you had to go to and pass. But I helped guys pass all that stuff. And if so, a little bit more wiser now from my situation, I was assisting those guys through their process.

Host 1:58:22

When you got to 7th Infantry Division, are you still in E4 or did you make E5?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:25

No, I was E5, I think. E5 and 6 while I was there. Did you go to PLDC while you're in the while you're at range regiment? No, I was in 7th. I think I was actually at E6 when I finally went. That's funny. PLDC being hocked and all that stuff. It might have been oh no, I probably couldn't get six unless I did. That was the deal. I couldn't get six unless I went to PLDC. So that was from five to six. Yeah, it was interesting, but really learned everything that I had uh needed to learn on leadership was there in the 7th Infantry Division because of the environment, because of the soldiers that I had in charge of and saw other people and saw ever saw different styles of leadership and what was working, what wasn't working. Yeah, I really, I really I was never something I wanted to do, didn't know I was gonna be there, but uh learned a ton of stuff.

Host 1:59:24

Probably extremely informulative as a NCO too. Yep. So just for the listeners out there, I know we got a lot, a huge military audience, but for those of you that that weren't in the military, every time that you get promoted on the enlisted side of the house, so sergeant, staff sergeant, sergeant first class, master sergeant, and then sergeant majors, you go to a course. So back then it was called PLDC primary leadership development course. So you would go to that course when you either became an E5 or back then you probably got waivers and you could go to it after it. Now, I remember when I was in, I had to go to PLDC before you could get promoted. And then BNOC, it's called something now. I don't know, they change everything. I think BNOC's now ALC, but back then was to make E6, you had to go to the basic non-commissioned officer course with BNOC. So I just wanted to make sure that I get I get accused sometimes of getting lost in the military acronyms on these podcasts for people that didn't serve. There's a lot of them, and we kind of speak our own language. Yeah, and I forget that. So I wanted to. So when you showed up to 7th Infantry Division in Fort Ord, which is up in northern California, I think that that base still exists, but there's we don't have active duty components there. Were you a squad leader or did you start off as a team leader?

SPEAKER_00 2:00:23

Eventually, yeah. I started out as a team leader as an E5, so it was very structured, a very I mean it we were there to provide the cadre. So E5s were team leaders, E6s were squad leaders, and E7s were platoon sergeants. So it started out that way. Over time, it like any infantry unit, you know, it that doesn't work out. Yeah, because everybody's serving up one rank because everybody's short. Yeah, or you lose regular losses through injuries and and time and promotions and stuff like that. So team leader, and the guy, my first squad leader was a uh second ranger battalion NCO. So he was actually trying to help me to get back to Ranger Battalion, but he's trying to get me to go to Second Ranger Battalion. I was like, no, I don't want to go that way. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go east. Different gang. And uh so nothing wrong with second ranger battalion.

Host 2:01:12

Oh, we've got I think we'll tell you what, two 275, three 275 guys on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:17

If I ended up there, I'd be just as happy, right? But uh from day one, I was trying to get to first bat. So that was always in my head. I gotta get the first bat. And yeah, so it it worked out. So we did that. My squad leader at the time, the second bat guy. We start re-organ things because we're getting losses, and the squad leaders are are getting whether it was an admin thing or injuries or promotions or whatever it was, we're starting to lose, you know, all the people that are structured into the state. So ETSing too. So it was it was difficult to maintain that kind of structure.

Host 2:01:53

Well, now we get to really dive into kind of you know, this next level in your career. So Operation Just Cause, Panama. We ended up going into Panama. Where where were you? Or do you remember kind of you know your thought process or what happened when you found out you guys were deploying to Panama to support Just Cause?

SPEAKER_00 2:02:13

Yeah, I don't remember the initial thing. It was like a call-out kind of deal. So formation. That was a call to formation. And so we had been to Pan, so that was the second group of cohort. That was my second group of folks that I took to Panama. So I do the first first group, first three years, second three years. This is where Panama happens.

Host 2:02:36

So the first three years were you guys going to Panama and training, like jungle school and all that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 2:02:40

Yeah, you do all that as an infantry unit, right? You you you do the jungle warfare training and all that stuff. So pretty sure we did that with that first group, and then the second group, definitely. And then in 89, that summer of 89 before the actual just cause thing, uh, we were in Panama. We go to jungle warfare school again. I mean, that's just what you do as so as a as a cycle within like the court unit, that's one of the things you do. You do all these things, and that's one of them that you do jungle warfare training, winter warfare training, all that kind of stuff. So we had done that, and then as it's falling apart in Panama, the situation there, we go back to Panama to we're training with while we're there, we're training with the 7th group, 7th SF group. We're doing you know, load-unload helicopters and that kind of stuff, and hot LZ kind of drills and stuff like that.

Host 2:03:34

Are you doing that with the Panamanians or just US?

SPEAKER_00 2:03:36

No, just us. So it was just our unit plus the 7th Infantry guys uh teaching us, or the 7th, 7th SF group guys teaching us. At the at the same time, we're starting to escort the the convoys so convoy security for all the things in Panama, and mostly it was going up and down from the Gulf side to the Pacific side. So there's convoys of regular stuff, people, supplies, and logistics and all that stuff. So we're starting to escort those things. Escort, I mean, so for for the the deterioration of Panama, we had patchy gunships you know, covering our movement and all that stuff. It was like it's pretty bad.

Host 2:04:18

So you were there as the country started deteriorating? Yep. Before what what did that look like? When you say deteriorating, was it like getting lawless or like were convoys getting raided? Like why were you guys protecting convoys?

SPEAKER_00 2:04:30

So people were stealing things from the logistics convoys, they were hitting, not not hitting like like ambushing explosive stuff, like IDs and all that in Iraq and Afghanistan later on, but they were just ambushing the the logistics convoys up and down the canal. So for whatever it is they had, I don't I don't even know what was in those things, but arms and ammunition and explosives and all that stuff, but also just regular logistics stuff, food, supplies, and all that kind of stuff. So they were just stopping them and then taking their stuff. So we go in to provide security for the the convoys, and so there's a lot of things going on that escalated to the actual deployment. So there's Americans being hurt, kidnapped, I think. So there's all these people that are getting shot or shot at or something like that. So it's it's kind of getting a little wonky.

Host 2:05:26

Yeah, and and so the listeners out there can understand, especially the the younger listeners. Operation Just Cause was when the U.S. pretty much invaded Panama and we captured Noriega, who was the dictator of Panama and pretty much prosecuted him. And I I you know, now that I'm thinking about it, there's a lot of things that have to do with Panama, like backed away with the Panama Canal. So we control the Panama Canal with the Panamanians, and so I would imagine I think Noriega was threatening to either remove us, I can't remember. I was younger when all that happened, but there was I know that was a big deal, and that's why the US was involved down in Panama. We kept a base down there is because the Panama Canal controls the only shipping route from the Atlantic into the Pacific.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:08

I think it was he was deciding at the time to walk away from US support, which uh were the ones who put him in power anyway. Yeah. So he was he was gonna walk away from all that. I don't remember who it was that was gonna step in and control the canal at the time, probably China or Russia.

Host 2:06:24

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what happened. I think we're talking about taking it back from them.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:27

Yeah, yeah.

Host 2:06:28

So the didn't want that to happen, so it was uh so you go back from Panama when it's starting to stabilize, and then how do you guys find out that you're going back to it wasn't stabilized, we were going back on a regular rotation.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:42

So I don't remember the the so it was probably the 7th Infantry Division. I was just in that that realm, so but other units we're getting ripped out by other units, other infantry units to take over. So it was gonna be a consistent thing to do. So we keep yeah, so we had like a whole the so there was a whole rotation going in back then. Okay, yeah. So we go home on a normal rotation. So this is probably around Thanksgiving, uh November that year, so a month before the actual invasion. And so you guys were already scheduled to go back to Afghanistan, or I'm sorry, Panama anyway. Panama, yeah. And so we go back, we do you know, Thanksgiving, and then for that that break, what happens in the army now for all these units? So we're gonna go back and we're gonna take it like I think it was two weeks. So they call it block leave, so leave during Christmas. So the week before and the week after is what the block leave was. And so a week week before Christmas, that's when we're so it was a huge deal. So you had to inventory, like a soldier in the barracks, you inventoried everything in their room, you banded and locked their lockers until they came back, so nothing, everything's secure, and huge just just that, just inventorying their whole stuff and locking up their lockers and their so did they call did they call you guys off block leave? Yeah, oh okay, and we were in we yeah, so the 20th, we would have been like a couple days into our block leave. And I didn't leave, I hadn't left anywhere. So my family's in LA, so our our plan was just we're gonna stay there and we'll go down to LA for Christmas and spend time with the family and stuff like that. I didn't have take, I didn't need I was on leave, but I was staying on Ford Oregon. So for those of us that were like that and still hadn't got on planes yet, still hadn't left yet. So within that two weeks, you're on leave. If you didn't leave the barracks right away, then at one point you were gonna take a flight to wherever they're coming from in the world. Uh go home for Christmas, come back. And so we're probably a couple days into that block leave, and there's there's a formation of the people who are there, and I'm at home, so I get called and say, hey, there's uh an emergency formation or something to that effect. And so I go back there, and there's not too many people left that are still there. And one of the uh was the lieutenant, I can't remember his name. He's the one that told us because he's our our our commanding officer, our CEO, he's he's they're all gone, they're all on leave at wherever home is, and he talks about uh really really general things about the division has been called to deploy to Panama. And we're thinking, oh god, not Panama. Okay, whatever. But when are we going? It's like another rotation thing. So we're thinking this didn't need to be like an emergency formation, but then then the they they he starts describing about the he doesn't use the word invasion, but the deployment or something like that, and the deteriorating things, and he's he and we were there for some of that stuff to happen. He's like, remember this, that, and the other thing. Well, it's escalated too, we're we're taking over a more offensive posture in Panama, something to that effect. And we're recalling everybody from leave. And if you have their phone numbers, if you're in touch with them, call them, tell them to get back. And so it was all called the people who were there. Like if you know your friends who are leaving, if you got their phone numbers, call them. If you know their where their where their home is, give them a call and tell them to come back.

Host 2:10:17

So did you guys did you really process the fact that hey, dude, we're about to go invade a country, or did it sound like he talked around about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:23

Yeah, so it was kind of like okay, whatever. You know, and we're thinking in terms of like another rotation, like something happened, and we just have to go replace these guys, you know, sooner than later, or off rotation cycle, all this stuff. So we really wasn't like getting ready to get it, right? And during the process, when guys are coming back and we're able to call their homes, because you know, there's no cell phones yet, so we're having to if they're in route in transit, they're getting the message when they get home, like, hey, some sergeant so-and-so just called and said, You gotta turn around and get on the first thing, smoke them back to Fort Ord. Then that that call comes back and we're all answering the phones, and and it's like, yeah, we're deploying to Panama. Yeah, get here as soon as you can. And yeah, we're just waiting for guys to come back from from leave during that uh easily a couple days. And I'm sure there had to be somebody who missed the boat on that one. So we're talking guys who who've spent like they don't they kind of they barely could afford the the plane ticket home for leave. Now they got to come back, and that that's money that people don't have, so it's like, oh well, well, I'll get back when I get back, right? So I answered some of those calls. It's like, yeah, absolutely, give us a call. I will and we don't know when exactly we're leaving yet.

Host 2:11:47

So when you guys had your initial muster, they didn't say like, hey dude, you know, H1s this day.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:53

No, we didn't get that until the best. So there was a so there was a a certain percentage of people when we were able to deploy, right? When you're combat effective, right? So once we hit that number, company commander, you know, everybody's coming back and they're unbanning and getting their wall lockers out and they're getting their clothes and their we're packing bags and and rucksacks and all this other stuff, and we're getting ready to to to take off when we hit this threshold of okay, now we're combat effective, we can go. So commander, but we get to that point, commander gets a we get a I wish I could remember what he said because I remember it being like a very motivational, like we're getting ready to get in at a speech. And so that was the first time we actually knew what was happening, and so he lays it all out and he's like, uh, you know, it's the you know, everybody comes back kind of thing, a speech, you know, everybody's coming back, we're gonna do good things. You guys are ready. You've been there before, we've been there all summer, you know. This is just so we're so when we were doing the escort stuff, so it was it was live ammo, jocked up. You get get like you get frags and all that stuff too, but you had to tape up the spoons and all that stuff, so super secure, super safe stuff. So this is that's kind of how uh what I remember of that speech, part of it was like it how he kind of defined it for us was like we're we're not taping up frags on this one kind of thing. And I was like, wow, this is this is a cool speech.

Host 2:13:24

This is like how long was it from the time that you guys got called back from Muster and you know, tell everybody, hey dude, come back off leave until you actually guys went. So the maybe two days. Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:13:38

On the third day we're planes going. So what were you telling your guys right before you left? It wasn't a whole lot of stuff, so inventory, pre pre mission planning stuff. So I'm inventorying rucksacks, we're inventorying you know their kit, their go-to-war stuff. So we had a duffel bag that had to be packed with certain stuff that gets thrown on a pallet. Rucksack has all this stuff in it. In my mind, in that in that moment, when when we just had this speech. I was thinking we're getting ammunition too.

Host 2:14:08

It didn't happen. Oh yeah, that's a funny story. So what was everybody was thinking of that? Yeah, what was your relationship with your platoon sergeant? Did you get along with him?

SPEAKER_00 2:14:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember anything. Let's see. Who was there? So when I was a team leader and then a squad leader, I was in two different platoons to do that. And I knew the one that I came from personally more better than the the new guy. Well, not a new guy. He'd been there the whole time too, but I hadn't worked with him. I hadn't been in the field with him. We had different concepts of kind of how we should go about training and what should we do in our daily lives. It wasn't like an NCL that I looked up to, but okay, he's he's seven, he's in charge, kind of thing. No issues with the guy personally. I just didn't have like wasn't motivated.

Host 2:15:03

So you guys are getting ready to roll, you guys get on the plane. Do you guys have your ammunition? No. Getting on the plane. Tell that story.

SPEAKER_00 2:15:11

Man, yeah. So so what we're used to doing too is we so our our alert holding area for our most of the 7th Infantry units is at uh Travis Air Force Base. And we used to go there when we were on the alert cycle, deployment readiness force uh cycle. We part of the like a platoon or company would go to Travis Air Force Base and you pull guard duty on your stuff. So that's where all your it's over all the ammunition is and all that stuff. So we're just thinking, okay, we're packing up here, go to Travis, we'll get all the ammo and stuff, load up magazines and all that stuff, and and go. It's like this is how it's this is how it works. This is what we know, how it works. We get to Travis Air Force Base, so we bust to Travis Air Force Base, get off the buses, planes are waiting for us, and like I thought, oh we get we get any bullets first, and you know, positive thinking, me. Well, maybe it's already loaded on the plane, or we're gonna load it on the plane, right? No, that wasn't the case. And then I got as I'm running around trying to get ready, we'll get my guys ready. It's like you'll you the last word I got about that was we'll get it when we get on the airfield in Panama. I was like, that doesn't sound good. But what can you do? You guys had what, like two magazines apiece or something like that? Not not even yet. So at Travis Air Force Base, we don't get anything there. And we leave Travis and we're Travis Air Force Base next stop is the the airfield in Panama. Can't remember any of that air base, but we're gonna cycle in there and then okay. Well, I guess we're gonna get it when we get there. And fortunately for us, you guys literally went to invade a count a country with no ammo. Yeah, almost well in route, we're we're up in the air, and at one point they come over the loudspeaker, and the pilots are talking to us that situation on the ground, they're giving us sit reps, and they say the the airfield there that we're supposed to land in is being attacked. We're gonna divert to I think it was Lackland Air Force Base, somewhere in Texas, and and we got to ground get grounded there and wait for we can't land in Panama, and we gotta go there first and sit tight for a sec until it's secure in Panama. So we stopped there, we offload the the things, we go into this hangar, and we're like, okay, well, uh let's try to get ammo here because it's being attacked at the airfield that we're gonna land. So we get some stuff, like the machine gunners got, you know, I don't know, it wasn't a full, I don't think basic load of machine gun ammunition, maybe a magazine or two, and that's I'm diving this what we get amongst the squad. And so since I'm I'm a squad leader, I'll probably do the least amount of shooting. So I'll give all the ammunition to the guys as much as possible. So that's kind of what happened, you know. Going in beta country with like two magazines and ammo.

Host 2:18:21

And this is your whole, was this a company or a battalion? Like or were you guys flying out as it was a battalion?

SPEAKER_00 2:18:29

So yeah, it was a lot of guys. We we had enough. I I can't remember if I had all the guys that in my squad made it back. And most of those guys I was able to talk to myself personally. I was like, you know, typical squad leadership. Hey, get your ass back here, we're deploying, right? No smoking, and you know, don't ask any questions, just get your ass back here. And then pretty sure everybody made it back. And so we we get some ammunition in in in Texas when we're there, and then it's like, okay, well, it's it's all clear the the the airbase is is secure, safe, so we take off next stop is Panama, and it was at night, hot as shit. So it was the same thing. So as soon as those ramps open up and you're in Panama, just the wave of humidity and the smell and everything just you guys flying at night? Yeah, yeah, it was at night, so that was uh always the always the intent to to land at night so you didn't get shot at and all that kind of stuff. So it was at night, and then as we spread out on the airfield and we're in our secure positions, just securing the airfield, but also just getting in a perimeter so we can start loading everybody up with ammo. So then it was just that just wait waiting around for the next night now to get. So my my thought process was uh we're gonna land there. It's probably I don't know, it was it was late night. Let's just say midnight. I knew there was in my mind there was time enough for get to get ammunition, get everybody jocked up with ammunition, full load, double basic load for everybody, and then insert into Panama City, which is where our area of operations was. And so we shared Panama City, sliced it in half. 80 Second had one side, we had the other side. And so sun's starting to rise, and I'm thinking, okay, well, I guess we're not infilling tonight. We're at the airfield and the other side of the canal from Panama City, and just hearing all the stuff that night, the the gunfights and all that stuff, we're like, okay, well, I guess this is it. We're we're we're really just watching the show across the canal, like tracer fire and all that stuff. I was like, all right, this is real. And then when the the sun came up, excuse me, the guys are thinking that night you really got a sense of, okay, we are loaded for bear now. And so you guys get ammo when you land, yeah. So we finally get that, but I have to go look for it. So I there's um those little the mules they used to load on aircraft. There's little little four-wheel things you can actually load on a Huey, and they have trailers. So I got one of those. We're driving around to where wherever this ammo is, and there's pallets of stuff all over the place. So that was my thing. I'm asking my platoon server, you know, because that's kind of his job in the first area, and they're supposed to be, you know, getting us stuff, bringing it to me. I distribute it to the squad. And it's so for me, it wasn't being proactive enough. It's like, hey, we need this shit now. It's like, because this base, this airport was just attacked last night. It's secure now, but we're here now. We might be responsible for something. And so get the stuff now. He wasn't proactive enough to do that. I got the little mule in the trailer and would go get some ammo and I'm bringing it back to the squad, and I parked it. I'm starting to issue all the stuff, and everybody's like, Oh, it was like a a feeding frenzy, right? It's like, hold on, you know, what you know, 50% security, you know, for the machine gunners, get your AG up here, you know, and then we'll keep you here and you come here and get ammo for your buddy and all that kind of stuff. So I started doing that. Start issuing out frags, grenades, and they're asking because what they were what they were used to was taping frags, right? Taping the spoons on the frags. And I was like, nope, we're not doing that here. This this is for real, man. You're taking it as is, put it in your pouch and go back to the perimeter. So we finally did that, and then the the my platoon sergeant came who's seen me do this, and he's like, Where did you get that? I was like, Well, I'm thinking, what? Well, you shouldn't be asking me that question. You should be knowing that question and getting the stuff for everybody else. So I said, It's right over there. You can have this little mule right after I'm done with it. I get done with it, and he goes to start distributing ammo to everybody, and then really we just sit around an airfield waiting until nightfall to get infill into the city that night. What uh what was the mood in the squad that night when you landed? But noticeably nervous. And when the sun came up and we were getting and I was getting ammo, there was a Jeep and a trailer with guys who were with patients, and because they were on stretch litters on the on these jeeps and trailers, and they were going to the the cache at the at the airbase. And they're but so nobody knows why they were there and what happened, and we just think, oh shit, you know, that must have been from the attack last night, right? But there were heat casualties, and so all you see is their feet, their naked feet hanging off the litters as they bounce by. Their feet are you know jingling in the feet shot up, and everybody's like, oh shit, you know, this is real. And I was like, hey, what's up with those guys? And medic that was with us, he's like, Oh, those are heat casualties, and they're going to the cache to get yeah, IVs and stuff. It's like, oh, cool. I was like, I got guys, calm down. They're heat casualties, drink water. Yeah, all of it now.

Host 2:24:04

Start drinking.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:05

Yeah, that was uh that was the moment there that I noticed some a little bit of nervousness.

Host 2:24:11

Yeah, you talked about having guys kind of stare at you on that deployment, like, hey, what do we do now when you hadn't even been to war yet either? In that exact moment, what did leadership mean? I mean, giving orders, not just letting them see you hesitate. Like, how did how did you realize, hey man, not necessarily have to step up your game because I think the army does a good job of preparing, but but war's different, right? Like those of us that have been overseas, like training and then being in a combat zone and being in combat, it's different.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:37

Yep. I don't know what it was, but I had an answer for anything that was asked me. So and I don't think I intentionally thought about like how I need to address them to one, get get get the message across, but also not not alarm them, not make them not make it worse than what it was. And I I did say a few times, but like more motivationally, like this is the shit, right? This is what we've been training for, that kind of stuff, motivational stuff. And so usually back in back in Fort Ord, though, you know, I'd call them a name or something like that. You know, don't ask these stupid questions, kind of stuff like that. I didn't do that there. I just had an answer to say, hey, this is this is where this is what we've been training for. Yeah, and that's kind of the the mentality I had. I always had an answer, and it was always I tried, I didn't I don't remember intentionally trying to be positive or like aggressive, like motivationally aggressive, and but that's what I needed them to be, and that's what just where I was, I think.

Host 2:25:40

What were you what were you guys doing on that trip? Well, what was that trip like? You know, you guys get there, you land, the next day starts. What what uh what was the battle rhythm?

SPEAKER_00 2:25:48

Yeah, night falls, and it it's it was very disorienting because we're we're loaded on these. I think they were like deuce and a half or something like that. And you know, face out, everybody's all faced out and stuff like that. I'm trying to keep my bearings looking where we're going and following on the map. And we get a briefing. This is where we're gonna go in Panama. It's gonna be the drop-off point and or the debarkation point on the ground, and then we're gonna patrol from here to there, occupy this area, all that stuff. So we get that briefing, and it was very disorienting because the the the convoy or the trucks, the convoys that we were in had to divert routes and stuff like that. So it was really me trying to keep up with it on the map. No GPSs and stuff at the time. So we're mapping compass everywhere. So yeah, it was very disoriented for me. Sights and sounds, all that stuff, firefights spread, firefights everywhere, gunfights everywhere, straight, you know.

Host 2:26:48

What was the mission that you were that was being told you? Like what was your company, your battalion? What were you guys doing?

SPEAKER_00 2:26:53

Was it just occupy or occupy a position corner of the city and defend it? Defend it in place, and then follow-on missions were gonna be, you know, like a not not necessarily an HVT hunt, but but like that, right? Since based off of whatever intel, then we'll start branching out from our defensive positions. So defend the the jungle side of Panama. So that would have probably been the east side of Panama City, which is on the jungle, and then 8th second had the coastline in.

Host 2:27:23

And were you guys expecting resistance, or was like was the battalion pushing info like, hey man, there's these guys that could attack, or what was the battle situation situation? Yeah, what was the battle situation?

SPEAKER_00 2:27:34

And that first night when we're rolling into town, we get word that well, so the battalion 2000, those are the guys, those are the the that's the enemy, and there's the battalion 2000, and then there's sympathizers. So very common in in any conflict that we've been in. So there's people in the city, just normal civilians who are sympathetic to the the cause, the battalion 2000 guys. So there might be that. There might be a one-off guy, one off person that we got to go after, or something like that. But the battalion 2000, they have vehicles, they have armored vehicles, and all this other stuff. That's what we're the main effort is gonna be towards defending. So it was like whatever comes, right? Like, okay, then be ready for anything. All right, Roger. That's like, okay, so as we get in there, we get off at one point. They said the good news starts spreading about the battalion 2000 has left the city, and so now all we gotta worry about is the sympathizer types, and and it's happening. We don't get involved with anybody that night, but that's that's who we're like looking for now. So that's what we're watching for. And so we offload the vehicles, and the first anything that is happening, car comes, so there's a curfew also, so martial laws in effect and all that stuff. So car comes is probably just somebody trying to get home, but who knows? I mean, we're all jacked up, and everybody's all just we just get off these trucks, and everybody, you know, the sights and sounds were just like, you know, all your mag machine gunners, belted ammo, and this is what you're hearing, and positioning guys and defensive stuff, defensive positions, just ad hoc, hasty positions. Car comes screeching around a scorner, and we hear it, and it there's a wire, concertino wire across the road, which they probably didn't see until they ran into it. Because that that nothing was marked, nothing was delivered, it's just like ad hoc.

Host 2:29:37

So you guys are posted up, you guys have gotten to your point, and it's like a hasty defense.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:40

Yeah, so there's hasty things going on all over so that that barbed triple stand, it was like two or three strands of barbed wire across the road. And car comes up, gets tangled up in that stuff, so it screeched to a halt. And I could have sworn he threw something, and everybody else said that. Did he throw something? I hear this like, hey, did he throw something? And we're thinking this is the one-off guy who's gonna start start to do his thing. And he got shot at from a machine gun from some other platoon on the on the perimeter, and and it was like one of those things like oh sh, like, oh my god, this is this is it, right? This is how that happens. And he gets he gets shot up. So we we expected point at this frag. We expected what I thought he I saw him throw was okay, he just got tangled in the stuff, he's gonna continue to fight and throw through a frag. Nothing ever exploded. So I don't know if that was a frag and he just didn't pull the pin or something happened, it was a dud, whatever. But that's what I thought, and I saw him get shot at, so it's like, holy crap, that's what we got to be watching for. So he ends up surviving. So we don't uh we asked that when we were getting ready to re-deploy as we're thinking back, like, hey, whatever happened to that dude, you know, that was in the barbare the first time.

Host 2:30:59

Oh, nobody ever went up and checked the car.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:00

Yeah, yeah, eventually, yeah, eventually they do that. That wasn't us though. So we're just we're starting to like, okay, let's go, you know, go, go, go, let's get to our positions because they're starting to to fight back. And yeah, he was eventually hauled off Medivact at one point to wherever he was Medavact to. And I was just a random thought. When we're now downloading everything back at the air, back at the airfield, we're getting ready to go back home. When I asked the question, and everybody's like, as we're reflecting back, like, oh my god, that was badass, or whatever. We're just now we got war stories, and we're like trying to, you know, trying to hide things coming back because there it was uh there was an inspection, no war trophies, nothing that was in Panama you could take home. So we're going through those kind of inspections, and uh that we're just standing in the hangar waiting to get inspected. The dogs are going through everything, and MPs are all over the place searching bags and all that stuff, and we're just talking about that. And that was like a random question. It's like, oh dude, hey, whatever, whatever happened to that.

Host 2:31:59

So that was all that was all on the first night, though, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:32:01

Yeah.

Host 2:32:01

So you guys you for you guys finally get established, and then you guys started going looking for Panamanian army dudes.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:09

Yep, yep. And so we made it to our our our defensive positions, and uh, as far as I you know, I could speak to like where our company was and the rest of the defensive uh positions in the battalion, I'm not sure, but our company had this section, and in the platoon in the company platoon, then squad where I was at, had my little thing, and I ended up to be on the like the the most probable access that the battalion 2000 was coming down. And when I get that word, so they have have this little meeting, commanders and the lieutenants and all that stuff, and the lieutenant came out to me and he's like, Hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna plush you up with another gun team and two other guys and ATVs or AT4s and all this other stuff, and so uh anti-armor shit. And I was like, all right, cool. And then he got to the Y. He's like, because this road that goes disappears in the jungle there, that's where the Battalion 2000 or a element, a large element of the Battalion 2000 is reported down that road, reorganing, refitting, and they're that's that they're gonna come back that way because they're gonna they're they're gonna retake the city. So I was like, all right, cool. I was like, be careful what you ask for, right? Because I am right there. And so that night is really just preparing for that. We did all kinds of stuff. We were patrolling the behind us, the clearing the houses behind us to make sure nobody's in those homes. And if they were, it was just, you know, if there was any guns and stuff like that. We're coming to find out this is it was a uh Panamanian Defense Force Battalion 2000 officer housing area. So we see all the plaques on the walls from even training airborne school and stuff at Fort Betting and stuff like that, and School of America's certificates and all that stuff, and uh uniforms in the closets and stuff like that. It's like, oh, this is hey, I saw report that out. Hey, we're we're in a military housing area. We need to do more clearing for all the if you're not doing that right now. I was telling reporting to my LT, maybe the other squads need to do this too. And I was just doing it just because I had my little piece. Let's clear the backside. And so we did that, cleared some houses, talked to uh one of the occupants still there, a woman and her two kids, and they ended up giving us breakfast. But as we were trying to talk to her, no, no, no, I'm not I'm not a like a human collector or anything like that. So it was more like, Hey, what are you doing here? Who's your husband and where's he at? How come she? We live here. This is our village. So it's like, so how many other houses are like yours with all this military stuff in it? And and she said, she actually was very helpful, and she said, Well, my yes, my husband is in the the the military, and he's part of the battalion 2000 and and all this other stuff. And this whole area, there this this is the officers, all the officers in this area are are with his unit. And so we start clearing all these homes. I reported it up, and that was kind of how it ended. There was no males left, they uh they were all gone. So it was either an empty house or women and children, and so we let everybody be, women and children, just okay, stay in your homes, don't come out, and we'll be fine. But just so you know, there might be a firefight out here in the morning. Stay down, so don't go to your back windows, you know, when the sun comes up or whatever, right? And so those are the conversations that we're having that night with everybody, and that was just build hasty barricades, things that put things in the roads like obscure the any vehicles that were driving, relocating whole walls onto the street, and it was just stacked. Stack blocks. So the no mortars that were holding the walls. It was all stacked blocks, uh center blocks or cylindrical concrete. So you guys are just building like hasty roadblocks. So yeah. Just anything, really. In my mind.

Host 2:36:18

Is that the night that you guys had the van come through?

SPEAKER_00 2:36:20

Yeah, that morning. And that's when I got shot at that night when we were building the backside like barricades. And yeah, it was it was pretty good. So my thing was we we, you know, I asked for concertino wire and other things, and it wasn't we had some concertino wire that that arrived and stuff like that, but then we just tied that into all the other shit that we were putting on.

Host 2:36:41

Tell me about the tell me about when you got shot at. It's actually kind of a funny story.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:45

Yeah, it's funny now. Yeah. Yeah, so we're just trying to seal, not seal off, just kind of like discourage people from driving on the road that was behind us. So we had it was a neighborhood road coming off, so four-way intersection, and right behind us was a residential road, and it was the the row of houses behind us was the the officer's housing area. So uh I just wanted to block off or discourage people from driving up that road. So maintain some sort of control of the area and channelize everybody into the main street, and we can deal with them there. And all trying to, I'm trying to, you know, get the gun teams in the right positions and all this stuff. And so that barricade was just trash cans, patio furniture, and stuff like that that we're finding on people's back put back patios and stuff like that. So I was out, I grab a couple guys and give them this little quick briefing on what we're getting ready to do. And it was like four guys. One guy I'm gonna have with me to take stuff out because some of the stuff was heavy, and you know, park benches and all that stuff. And two guys are gonna be on security, so kind of like a ranger, ranger scroll, scroll over the road kind of danger area kind of thing. So get on the side of the road, face out, and we're gonna go put these things in. So get two guys dig in the dirt right here, face that way, shoot anything that shoots at us, and uh, if they do, and we go out there, start dumping stuff, picnic tables and lounge chairs, and trash cans and everything else. And the first time I'm going out there with something, I got a bunch of stuff on my shoulder, and I start running out there, and there was a street light, but it's kind of kind of masked by the the the vegetation and the trees, and so it's kind of dark. So I'm running out there, and as I'm getting ready to dump the stuff, I hear the little snaps over my head, and then I was like, son of a bitch. Oh shit, somebody's shooting at me, and I ran across the street, I just continued across the street, dumped the stuff off my shoulder, ran across the street, hit hit the ground, and looked in that direction, looked back across the street at my guys. And I see them looking in that direction of the the shots, but no shots are fired, and I'm just yelling across the street. Now we're split up, and there's somebody shooting anybody trying to cross the road. So I didn't, you know, thought about it for a minute. It's like, well, do I need to call those guys over here or do I need to go back there? kind of thing. And I said, Well, we gotta go back. Me and the guy I had with me, we gotta go back. I was like, so scroll the road kind of stuff. Hey, you guys look up, look in that direction. We're coming across and one, two, three, go. And we take off running. So we take off running, snap, snap, snap. It's like the son of a bitch. And still no, my guys aren't shooting. I could see them like actively trying to, you know, get behind their guns, like, where's that coming from? Stuff, right? And but they're not pulling the trigger. It's like, shoot them or something. What what do you see? And then they they couldn't see it, they couldn't see what anything, no muzzle flash, nothing. Uh, they heard where it was coming, but they couldn't see anything. And that happens a couple times. So I was like, well, we gotta seal off the street because this might be part of the whole thing, and we got to seal this off. So I'm gonna go out there again. I'm just gonna go by myself now. I'm not gonna take anybody out there. I mean, more guns facing up the road to try to shoot this dude. And so I grabbed something, I'm going out there, I'm just gonna go out there, dump it, come back. Every time I went out there, I get snap, snap, snap. It's like, holy crap, dude. It's up, and I'm starting to get upset at my guys. It's like, come on, man, shoot that dude. We gotta get this stuff done. It's gonna take us forever. If I'm the only one taking one piece out at a time, that's where my head's at. And they're like, Oh, we can't see him, we can't see him. They're they're apologizing, uh, you know, they can't see him, they can't, so then I can pull the trigger and all this other stuff. And the last time, I was like, okay, well, we've done this enough times, there's enough stuff on the street. I'm happy with what's out there, and I'm gonna go one more time and put this out in the middle of the street, done, and call it a night for that that barricade. And I was like, let's try to shoot this guy because he's gonna be behind us all night, and we need to find out where he is, and then go, you know, in my mind, we're gonna get get a little raid patrol really quickly and go get this dude if we don't shoot him now, because we can't we can't have him inside the perimeter all night behind us. So that's where my head's at. So as I I go out there running, don't hear anything, and I was like, okay, well, maybe he's gone. Stopped in the middle of the road, so kind of a street light kind of mast. So it's dark, but I'm in wherever the illuminated portion of the road is, and I look up where this is coming from, and nothing. I was like, Okay, well, and really quickly, I'm thinking, okay, well, maybe he's gone on to other places, and then snap, snap. I run off the road, and I'm like, what are you guys doing? And they were like, I we can't see him, and you know, we can't identify where it's coming from. We can't see muzzle flash because we're talking about that. It's like just look for muzzle flash, shoot at the muzzle flash because whatever that is, it's not good. And but they never saw it from their position. So that was it. We we went back to the perimeter. I reported the location of this dude, potential guy who's got a gun and he's shooting at us, but we can't get at him, and so I don't know what ends up happening. We don't get the task to go search for this dude and raid this guy. This guy is wherever he's at, but we just start focusing on defending that our sector, our sector from the the big assault in the morning. We run into another guy, it could have been that same dude later on that morning. Uh it's still dark, and that's when one of my guys on the perimeter calls me the perimeter, and I low crawl to his position. He and he was at a loss uh for words for Spanish. Drop your gun, get on the ground, all this other stuff, bahuto hamra, all that stuff. He forgot it. We had been practicing that stuff all summer, and he's like, How do you how do you say stop, get down, drop your gun in Spanish? And we're whispering, and because he's like point the enemy thing, he's like pointing. And I look through the the woods, the brush, and I see this dude walking, he's got a rifle in his hand. I was like, Oh shit. He's like, How do you say get down, drop your gun, all that stuff in Spanish? I was like, I'm at brain lock too. Yeah, and then I just jump out, I was like, cover me. I jump out and I said, Get the fuck down because I'm pointing my gun at him. Everybody speaks in 16 bro. Yeah, and he went boom, right on the ground, dropped his gun flat on the ground, spread out, sprawled out. And I said, Well, I guess that's how you say that in Spanish. And I got a cover guy, we searched the dude, took his gun, processed him in the the company area, and then whatever happened to him after that, I have no idea. But then it was pretty uneventful that night. We were listening to the Spectre gunship nearby, and he's tearing somebody up down the road. And I don't, you don't know the the roads are so kind of they're really there, there's not like a gridded area. So these the especially the roads that are going into the the the jungle, they're just you know, they turn and so we're like, well, maybe that maybe they're shooting. That's best case. I mean, that's what we're thinking. That's what I was thinking. Well, maybe they're shooting at the the group that's re refitting and reorganed to come into the city. So in my mind, I was like, Yeah, do as much damage as you can because whatever's left is coming my way. And that's what I thought. Whether that was true or not, I have no idea what they were shooting at, but it was Spectre Gunship. So the at one point, the the 40 millimeter or the we heard all their guns going off at one point throughout the night. They disappeared at one point, came back. So at one point, they're Winchester, they go reload, Rion, come back. So I was like, yes, absolutely. Pretty happy about that.

Host 2:44:58

Did you have that van show up in them in the middle of the night?

SPEAKER_00 2:45:02

Yeah, well, the sun's starting to come up, and down this road is so also the the it was whatever time it was that the curfew was lifted. There's there's a few people on the street still, and they're starting to come out and drive their cars to wherever it is they were going. And so we're stopping everybody, and the orders were nobody gets through here. Every car gets searched, everybody gets out of their cars, and everybody gets searched. And so the instructions to them were stop your car, turn off the ignition, open up all your doors, hood goes up, trunk comes up, and we're gonna search everybody 100%, and IDs, check IDs, all this other stuff. So we start doing that. A couple of cars are there, and then my caveat to that was as I see the cars starting parking, it's maybe half a dozen cars or something like that, as I see them getting, you know, stacked up there, I was like, Well, that works for me as uh more cars in the way for whoever's coming down the road. So I st I added to and rated my LT and I said, Hey, I'm gonna stop these cars and not let them through because they're helping the the barricade this this road. And he's like, Hey, Roger, that you know, do what you gotta do. And so all these cars uh told them to get out, leave all the car doors open, leave your hoods and trunks open, and then sit to the side. You can go back the can't the way you came, but you can't go this you know forward. And so they decided to stay there, and I was okay with that. But now this the as I'm tending to my defensive perimeter checks and and stuff like that, making sure guys are ready, you know, are ready to go 100% now. And this white band shows up, and I don't I see it, but I'm not paying attention to it. The guys are all doing the checks and stuff like that. And and I get called on the radio, hey Star Force, we need you at this at the end of the checkpoint. And I was like, okay, what you got? Kind of busy right now, kind of thing. I'm more I was working with another gun team, putting them in another position. And I said, I'll be there in a minute. That's the only thing they said. Well, there's a however they described it. There, I I need you to come in and verify, you know, these guys. They they might be they might be army, I'm not sure. And I was like, okay, I'll be there in a minute. So as I looked down the road, I see the white white panel van. And I was like, huh. Okay, well, that's not what I expect to see from the Battalion 2000, like one van, you know, and it was it was white. I was like, that can't be anything to be concerned about. So as I just make my way down to that that spot, it there's no windows on the city except for the front, so it's like a delivery truck looking panel van. And it's not marked, there's no markings or anything like that. There's two guys up front, they're Hispanic, and and in my mind, I'm thinking, well, I mean, this could be well, it could be a lead element of the the assaulting force or something. And I can't remember if he showed me a military ID or not, but they weren't they weren't in uniform. And so question them, what are you guys doing? Where are you going? Where are you coming from? Where are you going? All that stuff. You have any ID, all that kind of crap. And are you do you have anybody in the back? All those kind of just normal checkpoint questions. And at one point, he he actually says, Yes. He may have said, U.S. Army, I'm with the army, and may I don't remember if he showed me an ID or not, but he he actually said, Yes, I do have people with guns in the back, and I need to get to wherever they were going to in town. It's like the church, right? Yeah, yep. Papal nuncia. I don't know if they actually said that, but they said they needed to get in town. I know later that's where they were probably headed, but uh at the time he they may have just said, I need to get we need to get in town like now. And there wasn't enough information. That's why I'm not sure if he showed me an ID or not. There wasn't enough information there for me to be convinced, like, okay, go ahead, right? And I I just need to check. I need to check what you have in the back. And he he may have said that, he may have showed me an ID. I don't remember that happening, but it was like me and my boy Smitty. He's my grenadier, and I was like, okay, we gotta do this search vehicle 100%, right? And so we gotta we gotta check. And he's he's on the door, I'm gonna go for the the cover on the door, and he goes for the door, he slides it open, and as he's sliding it open, I don't think he got all the way. I was like, like, stop. And face to face with there's a I don't know how many guys were back there. It wasn't well, two or three, maybe, but they're in BDUs and bright as brightest day, American pack, American flag on their chest.

Host 2:49:59

And I was like, they had guns out too, did they?

SPEAKER_00 2:50:03

They were kind of ready, like like so that's the worst thing you can do. And I faced that in Iraq and Afghanistan later, years later, with you know, approaching army guys, and they're ready to shoot anything. So I I know now I know that what they were feeling, like, okay, I even if you're an army dude and you shoot me. I'll shoot it back. So it was like Mexican standoff, and it's like Smithy, close the door, and so I tell the guy in the the right seat up front. I was like, okay, you guys are good. I see your guns, you you guys are good. Yeah, you guys, you get you guys, you guys are good. I don't know where what where you need to go, but I'll get you through at least this checkpoint, and then let everybody know. I said, wait a minute, let me tell everybody you're coming through what you look like, white panel van, two guys up front, let them through. They're Americans, and but then now I have all these cars junking up the street, and then and then he's like, you know, noticeable relax now, because he's he's like, Oh my god, we're gonna get shot by Americans. He noticeably relaxed. He's like, Well, hey Sartre, I we need to get through here though. You you got you know, we can't get through here. And I radio on the radio, yelled out loud, hey, get everybody off the road. This van's coming through, let it through. And then my guy started beating on cars and people and get in your car, get it off the road, you know, that kind of stuff.

Host 2:51:39

Part the Red Sea. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:42

It starts opening up, they take off, and we never see them again.

Host 2:51:44

We'll uh and and we'll we'll come back to that later on in your story. You you had another good, you guys uh at some point you guys started transitioning. We'll we'll wrap up this Panama series, but you guys started transitioning into doing like kind of raids. Yeah, yeah. And you you did one where you guys drop some ordinance in a house, man. Tell that story. It's a it's a really good story.

SPEAKER_00 2:52:04

Ordnance. And with a drop the frag in the frag. So interesting, leading up to that too, because we did our own like a recon the night before to try to identify the actual room in this look, I call it a storage facility, it looked like a storage facility, and then there was a break in the building on this side. We're gonna go positively identify the location, and then I'm I'm finalizing my plan for the raid. So where support positions are gonna be, where we're gonna be, the assault possault team, and all that stuff. So when we go up there, there's kids playing in this break in the building, and then there's just high, tall, like like elephant grass kind of stuff. That's where we're moving through the back of the building to get eyes on the the the target. And it was just me and probably uh Romero, because he was our Spanish speaker. He was actually an M60 gunner, and I I said, Hey, give your gun, switch guns with your AG'd, you gotta come with me a lot. And he was probably the one that was out there with me on the recon. And we got to this point where kids are playing soccer, and it's like uh and he he's in a position where when the soccer ball got was kicked at one point, he's almost like right by him. And I'm looking at this thing going, holy shit, what do we do if we're compromised? That was a that that was like, oh shit, maybe we got too close, right? And what what's the ROE and what what was the ROE in Panama? Shit, uh for that, I don't remember what that was in that situation. Pretty much if you're getting shot at you, you can shoot back. Okay, or if you think you're gonna get shot at, you can shoot. So it was now kids, kids playing soccer, and now we're gonna get compromised.

Host 2:53:45

And I so in my head, I'm thinking So you guys are in the elephant grass and you got all the everybody's around, you guys are getting ready to assault this building?

SPEAKER_00 2:53:54

Well, I'm getting ready to do the re I'm doing the recon to finalize the plan for the case. So the leaders recon. Okay. Yeah. And I'm thinking, well, if we compromise ourselves right now, it's done. We're not doing the raid. Or it's like, do we kill kids in that situation? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we should. Is it that important? Uh, these are all the things racing through my head because we can't get compromised, and we can't shoot them because then we're compromised too. So how do we if we wanted to do that, if we were allowed to do that, if this is okay to do that, and the tactical situation is this, I don't know, what do we do? So huge, huge thing. And I was thinking, do we do we do we shoot them? And we don't have silencers or suppressors on our guns. They that was not a thing then. We have regular M16 E2s, I think, and you know, iron sights, the whole thing. So it's like, oh, we can't we can't kill them, you know, because that's that's the thing that you say is a grunt, right? I want to be the first one on my neighborhood to get a knife kill, right? It's not that sexy when you're in this situation where you might get a knife kill and it's like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. So those are the things racing through my head. So I I made made it a point because he was doing this, and I'm looking at him, you know, he's off, you know, past whispering distance, and he's doing this, and I look at what he's looking at, and I was like, holy shit. And I actually saw what a couple of adults. I don't I don't I don't know if I actually saw the guy who actually raided his house, but I saw a couple adults, a bunch of kids playing soccer, and I was just like just freeze, and then when time permitting, just start backing out. And I just gave him this little rally that way when we're done. And gives me a thumbs up and we crawl out of there and it was good. And he's like, he he told me when we got back to the the fob, he's like going he had the same thoughts in his head. It's like can I sh can I shoot these kids if they're gonna identify me and compromise the mission or all this stuff? And or can I do can do I do I get my knife kill? And so he said he was doing the same things. And I was like, Well, yeah, it worked out, man. We didn't have to do any of that shit. And then then I start asking, hey, if we're in this situation, I wish it was my lieutenant, I think it was his second lieutenant too. We asked him, hey, this is our situation, this is what just happened. Great recon, finalized the plan. I got I got it, I got a plan, it's finalized. But this is what happened on the recon. And he was like, Well, you would have had to do what you had to do, General Porrys. I was like, Okay, well, fast forward now, you do that, you're going to jail. Yeah. I was like, okay, that I don't know if I wanted to hear that, but okay. There was never anything really defined through that whole operation. Yeah, fast forward now. Then we go back and do the raid the the next day, and it it was yeah, it was a lot of good stuff. So even just patrolling to get there, we get we get vehicles to a certain point and we're walking, we finish it on foot patrol, and there's a casualty collection, POW collection point, all this stuff. That's what we're calling it back then. So anything, anybody we grab, we're gonna take them to that spot, and then they get processed from there. So all these things identified, we go on target, they're going on target down this one little in between the the storage units. This is the actual room we hit is like about a 10 by 15 size room. It's a small room and center block, like things with tin roofs, you know, the Corgate tin stuff that look exactly like a storage facility. And we call out the dude and we get to the where all of the, you know, everything's going right, supports in position, support fire by fire, and all that stuff. They're all in positions where they need to be. As we're going down the to the building, we get in our position, assault position, everything's working just like just like we planned it. My boy Sramiddy, my two or three gunner, he's dropping little H E grenades from his two or three along the way. They've fallen out of his uh his pocket, yeah. So the vest that yeah. Have and it's probably still a thing, but the bottom row of that thing, if you were crouched down walking like this, that's what he was doing. He's he's like punching out the the rounds out of the bottom row of his vest, and but I I see that, but we're going, he's he's across from me. Uh, he's lead on the right side, I'm lead on the left side, and as we're going down, it's almost like a large, a large hallway, is the best way I can explain it. There weren't any vehicles on this part of the street, and it wasn't really that wide enough to have vehicles parked, and then you know, so we're going down the side of this thing, and people are seeing us coming, and they're running into their rooms, shutting the doors and all that stuff, which is cool. We're yelling whatever we were yelling. We get to our assault position, and it was just the break in the buildings, and we're gonna be around the corner, and I'm gonna have my my my Spanish speaker, Romero. He's gonna try to call him out and like, come out or we're coming in. Come out because we're coming in, kind of thing. And that's kind of how I articulate. Tell him we're coming in. So you come out now and it'll be okay, or we're coming in regardless. So his a woman and child, he sends them out, and we grab those folks, take them to the the collection point down the street. We get back in there, it's like, hey, come on out. He didn't want to come out. And it's like, okay. Well, onward we go, right? Next step. What's the next step? Around the corner and get get eyes on, and so my thing is in the in the infantry. It's it's frag out, frag it, follow, and don't follow it in. You wait for the explosion and all the stuff to clear, and then you go in after that, right? That's just military operations, urban terrain, like battle drill, you know, basic stuff. So I got my frags, and it's like, oh looking around at the support by fire position and our guys and the the build construction of the building and all that stuff. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I guess this is this is how this is gonna be. And it was the weirdest thing that it was just like like okay, this is how we practice it in training all the time. So I show everybody my frag, and you know, to my guy sitting in there and to the guys in support position and they're getting ready to do this, and pull a pen, throw a frag. It's like okay, this is this is get back around the wall. And then it was it was loud as shit. But other than the loudness, I don't remember it really being loud because there was so much shit flying through the air that it was like dirt debris, cedar block, you know, chunks and all that stuff. And I honestly, and we weren't we weren't wearing air pro or anything like that back in those days, it was just whatever. I had I had a hand mic from uh radio, the old, you know, probably a PRC 7017 or something like that. Old school radio. I had that and my helmet, so that was covering this year, but we weren't wearing ear pro or anything, and I don't remember anything being really exceptionally loud, gunfire or that. And okay, explosion goes off, and around the corner we go. We get inside, and I decide that I can't see behind this this partition.

Host 3:01:26

Well, I think it's at this point of the story that you should you you should also tell folks that you had told your squad when you guys got there that if you see me shooting, make sure you shoot.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:35

Yes, find something to shoot at, right? So that was uh that was a thing. So part of part of that lead up too was well, what you know, if how do we know if they're a friend or foe, what's what's the rules here and stuff like that. And that that was my answer. It's like, well, if you see me shooting, find something to shoot at. So it translated to current day stuff, it's like fine work, right? No, and but how that translated there with the the death blossom. So as we go in, this it it literally is on like a 10 by 15 size room, and it's it's there's a partition for the cooking area was, and then there's another doorway into a part of the where they use for the bedroom and the the the I guess you can call it a bathroom. It's like an in indoor outhouse uh with a bed in it, and bed and bookshelves and stuff like that. So we go into the main room and I see what is on the the the coffee table. It's a it's a toy gun, but I didn't know that at the time. I just said gun, gun on the table, and I saw behind the the so doorway partition to the cooking area, and I didn't want to cross in front of the doorway to clear around that partition, so boot camp infantry stuff, just spray through the wall, right? And hopefully you get who's hiding behind it, right? If there's somebody back there. So as I start stitching that wall, that little the it's like a countertop and a cooking area. I start stitching that wall, then we're back to back. So I got I'm pretty sure it was my two team leaders in there with me. We're all back to back in this little area, so I'm facing this way, and they were like porcupine out 360. And Romero is near the door still, and he's gonna stay there, he wasn't going in until after the assault. So we go in there, I start stitching that wall, and I really didn't think about it at the time when I was stitching that wall that I should hear any of the gunfire, but I heard behind me. You see me shooting, find something to shoot at, and they start stitching walls behind me, and I was like, okay, you know, and then it what it's like I can't remember who said that. It was like a clear call, like clear. And then I made it a point to walk around and clear behind the actual see behind the the kitchen cooking area, and then into the room we go, right? The little whatever's left, and dude's not here, it's just a table couch, cooking area, hot plates and stuff. It's not like a kitchen kitchen. I'm going in the next room, and it's it's a small room. I think only maybe two of us even fit in there, and it's just it the whole place is trashed, and then the the the air is filled filled with this debris, and the set the smell of our shots and all that other stuff, and everything's just just jacked up, and so we're trying to look like he's in here somewhere, and we there's a there's a I want to say it was a bookshelf, but it may be just a some sort of dresser or something, a bed, everything's kind of just jacked up bathroom, toilet facilities, and we're peeling stuff off. You know, there's a cover guy, and uh somebody's peeling stuff. So dude's perfectly fine laying underneath all this debris of stuff and kind of just on his back. Well, he was probably that way to begin with, and probably shell shock from the grenade and shooting as well, so just on his back, and as soon as we lift off the the the bed, the mattress or the box or whatever that was, there he is, just like frozen in time, and it's like like I'm I'm thinking, well, is he is he fucked? He should be fucked up, right? He should be bleeding. Oh, you alive, dude. And as I'm looking at him, he looks fine. He's got little, I don't know, little shorts on and sandals. And I was like, huh, okay, he looks fine. And so get him up, get him outside. I don't want to search him there, so we got still gotta search this guy. He doesn't have hardly any clothes on. So we take him outside out front, and you know, as we're coming out, we're yelling, you know, coming out, and this support by fire position can see us. They know that we're the ones coming out with this guy. Get him out front, search him. Uh so Romero picks up the language there, and he's telling him, lay down, spread your arms out, you're gonna be searched, and all this stuff. We search him, put put a it's like a canvas bag that we got from inside the house, like a rice bag or something. And we put that over his head, zip tied him, and then ran him down to the uh collection point. Didn't think about any of that stuff till later about you know how things are going. And then I was like thinking, well, after after the frag goes off though, too, we're outside this wall. So immediately as I you know, doing this, like, oh my god, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. It's like, okay, let's go. Then it's like, wait, hey, you guys are everybody? Couldn't imagine if things went that sideways, and I did that and I screwed up and fragricide one of my own guys. I thought about that later, it just was just oh man, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine. But I did that as soon as it was like, okay, let's go. And I was like, pause for a second, hey, is everybody okay? And then okay, let's go. And then didn't think about it till till later, but then it was like, okay, mental note. I'm not gonna use frags right now for these 10 by 15 rooms anymore.

Host 3:07:04

And yeah, because the over, I mean, you know, when you have a room that's that small, plus you know, you got the pressure, like that's like perfect. I wasn't thinking of that. Yeah, uh, pressure just from that explosion in that small room. Yeah, that's that's crazy. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting story. Any anything else memorable from that deployment?

SPEAKER_00 3:07:22

All the raids we went on, yeah. It was it was a matter of you know, leadership, guys getting scared, literally getting scared. It's fine. I mean, I realized, you know, we were exposed to some things, having to take over and then dealing with things like real time. Okay, I was okay, and I was thinking, you know, what I needed to. I had a lot of things going on in my head though, as far as just running the teams and getting the raid going and planning, executing, all that stuff. But the guys obvious obviously had time to think about certain things, and they were noticeably nervous. That's that's even how that comment comes up to if you if you see me shooting, just shoot, find something to shoot at. And then when we're going to another raid, my my guy, my point guy, he actually just stopped and said he can't do it anymore. He's overwhelmed with sensory overload. And so at the time, they didn't have time to say, you know, suck it up, buttercup, get get so I couldn't have him up there like that. So that's an interesting story, too.

Host 3:08:19

And I I'd love to touch on that story because I I think again, it's one of the you guys were uh you guys were getting escorted, I think, by a kid or something to a target. Yeah, kid disappears in the middle of the night, and you know, I I remember listening to it tell it somewhere else, but basically, I mean, your point guy thought he was leading you into an ambush and it was kind of overwhelming. Yeah, how how did you work through that, you know, scenario? You know, you're this isn't training, you're in the real world. Like what what did that look like?

SPEAKER_00 3:08:46

Well, so what it it so what I said and what what happened, it I didn't think about it, I just just reacted to it. He stopped, and my initial thought was don't stop, why are you stopping? Right? Because I I can see the kid and and he ducked around the corner on this into the shanty village. We were going to raid this this little uh shanty thingy, house, home, whatever it is. And so for me, when I'm looking, um, but I'm looking out, I'm like I got the big big picture here, and I thought if we got hit at any one point, we were gonna hit on the right side and or from the right side in the area that we're in. This was so if I was thinking the same thing he was, but just not in the same spot. I thought he's leading it when we he led us through this one area, it was a kind of a kind of a clearing in the jungle stuff. And then the shanty village is in front of us. And when when he led us through that, I was always thinking, I was already thinking, he's leading us into an ambush, into the field that we're getting ready to walk into. So I totally got what he was coming from when he eventually stopped the patrol, but he thought it was gonna happen further in the village. And I went through the same process in my head, like like don't stop here, whatever you do. And if we if anything happens right now, I'm already ready to react to a contact right. And then he stops the patrol. I was so my mind, I was like, Yeah, don't stop here. Like, what's going on? I race to the front, and he tells me he can't, he's he's overwhelmed, he's over he he can't do this, and I was so I saw his face, heard his voice, and realized that yeah, he's he's overwhelmed right now, and I was like, and we can't stay here. So, all right, back in back in the team wherever he was, what team he was on, and follow me. And I just started walking, go find this kid. And as soon as we got into the shanty village, everybody's back to being switched on, and we didn't have to go too far before we got to the house that he was he was fingering the house that we were supposed to raid, and I called that the White House raid because it was all painted white. And the kid walks back, walks toward the the house, and it's on so small kid. This thing's on stilts in this little shanty village, a little creek area. And he was supposed to positively identify the house. And so he gets next to he walks as he's walking past this house, he puts his hand on the on the door as he's walking past it and just kind of just drags along the side. I was like, all right, that's it. Yep, looks exactly like I expected it to look. And and then we raid the house.

Host 3:11:19

I know one of the things you had told me kind of when we were we were prepping your podcast is that you know, a lot of your a lot of the guys in your squad before you guys went to Panama on that trip, they thought you were real hard ass. I mean, you were, you know, you you were definitely into training, and that's something I I know that's something you probably carried with you forward from the regiment. And I know you were, you know, like you were motivated by war, but not stupidly in the fact like you just want to go, you know, like you under I I feel like you understood the cost, or at least, you know, the responsibility that was bestowed upon you to make sure you bring your guys back from whatever. When you got back from Panama, did any of those guys kind of understand it? Like, did they get it? Like, man, because you know, I I in talking to you, you're not gonna probably say this, but I I know like during that trip in Panama, you were probably one of the most squared away squad leaders. That's why your squad got plused up, that's why you guys were picked for the defensive position when they thought the battalion 2000 was gonna run through. Did any of your squad ever kind of recognize, like, hey man, this is why we do what we do?

SPEAKER_00 3:12:17

I they never told me that directly, but I did hear some of the conversations in the barracks, and they may have said that at one point, but they were very appreciative of the times that all the all the crap they went through before we went, and then then they're bragging about like, well, we went, you know, all the raids, you guys didn't do shit, kind of thing. It's all the barracks talk, all the banter between the the guys. And I didn't I heard it, and it's so as you're walking down into the barracks into the the your squad area, it's a platoon area, and where my guys were, they're they're bragging about all the the raids they were on, and you know, we're the ones who did everything, you guys didn't do shit, and all that kind of you know, barracks banter. And I was listening hearing it, I was like, yeah, pretty proud of the fact that they were happy with what had happened, and they then they in their minds everything we did prior to that was validated because it it helped us.

Host 3:13:18

Well, and for for the listeners to understand, too. I mean, this was a peacetime army. I mean, you know, other than Grenada and just cost, there wasn't a lot going on back in those days unless you were in a tier one unit. But even then, you didn't hear about what was going on. So, this was like, you know, especially for the infantry guys that were in an infantry unit. I mean, it was kind of a big deal. There wasn't a lot of dudes getting combat patches back then, yeah. Not till I think Desert Storm, really. So when you were done with Panama, I mean, did you still I mean, I I feel like you wanted more, like you really did you feel like you thrived in that environment or like you enjoyed the pressure of being a combat leader and having to make decisions under pressure?

SPEAKER_00 3:13:56

Yeah, yeah. So for me, that was a validation of I'm in the right place, this is where I need to be, kind of thing. So even not wanting to be in the 7th infantry to begin with, that uh you know, then I resort back to, and we've talked about it briefly off camera, like my my faith and my beliefs, right? It's like, well, we're here for a reason, and I'm in the 7th infantry for a reason. I'm I'm wherever I am. Okay, well, I guess there's a reason for me to be here, right? I I don't want to be here, but this is where I'm at. And yeah, for those reasons and the relationships that I got out of that one, huge. So the first group I didn't we didn't go to combat, but did this the training and stuff like that. And the second group, yeah, we actually validated everything and and and combat. And so everything was really just like we rehearsed it and practiced it, and all the drills we did and all that stuff. It was just and I so very satisfying to me to hear that. And not not that they didn't, I don't think anybody told me that directly. I just heard the the bear expanter when they're saying, well, about all the all the all the the smoke sessions and stuff like that, you know. It paid off. So mentally, physically, and all that stuff helped us, you know, uh cope with what we were dealing with.

Host 3:15:12

What was the biggest leadership lesson you as a because you're now a seasoned combat leader, I mean seasoned whatever, but nobody was going to war back in the infantry back then. What was one of the biggest leadership lessons you took away from that that trip to Panama?

SPEAKER_00 3:15:25

It doesn't always go as you expect. So the the more bravado, false bravado, false motivation guys back in the rear are are not always the guys who are gonna perform for you. I I didn't have any of those guys that were like probably just because they're always exhausted. They couldn't, you know, do that kind of stuff. But uh the other the other the other soldiers and the other platoons and the other squads who were like, you know, you know, kill Kami for mommy, and you know six to nine minute bursts, six six to nine second bursts on a machine gun and and all that stuff. Those guys didn't didn't didn't perform like they thought they would. And the guys that were the most quiet who just you know were doing what they were told to do, and you know, all all the stuff I had my guys doing, yeah, there was no nobody nobody, no false motivation, no macho bravado stuff going on with those guys.

Host 3:16:23

So you mean that if the most loud and obnoxious guys aren't always the best soldiers? Yeah. Weird. Yeah, yeah, super weird. Funny how that happens, right? Uh, before we jump on to the next part of your career, let's take a quick break. When you've spent years serving others, it's easy to put your own health on the back burner. At Prestigio Wellness Group, they are changing that. Founded by a former special forces medic, emergency medicine physician, and a hormone and longevity specialist. Dr. Bosley's mission is to help veterans, first responders, and motivated personnel nationwide to take back control of their health. This is why I personally trust Prestigia Wellness Group and optimizing my health goals. With telehealth appointments available in nearly every state, Prestigia Wellness Group can offer you personalized hormone and peptide therapies straight to your door. Grab Dr. Bosley's top five supplement guide in the show notes to start fueling your momentum, and then visit PresionWellness Group.com to get started. Listeners, please mention Vanguard50 for your 50% off your one-hour in-depth consultation with Dr. Bosley. For our home viewers, you can also scan the QR code on the screen right here to directly lock in that Vanguard wall deal on your initial telehealth or in-person visit. Take a tactical approach to optimize your health at Presticision Wellness Group. So we're we're wrapping up kind of your Panama combat trip. And one of the things I forgot to ask you about before you went to Panama is you started looking at special forces. How did how did special forces come on your radar?

SPEAKER_00 3:17:43

I thought that was just a a normal progression. So at my getting into the second, sick, the second cohort unit. So three years there, and and they said, I know guys that have left before their three-year thing, but they said I'm pretty much whatever the they always had this code. And you have this code on your your on the system that doesn't allow you to go anywhere until the end of a cycle, which is a three-year cohort cycle. And so it was kind of demoralizing at one point. It's like so I'm trying to get back to Ranger Battalion, right? So I'm trying to do that. And they say you can't go till after your first three years. So I'm waiting after my first three years. Second group rolls in, it's like you're still stuck, you still got that cohort code in your s in the system that won't allow you to go anywhere. I was like, what am I gonna do, right? I'm trying to get back to range battalion. And so I was like, Well, if that's not a thing, then I'll I'll what's next? So if I can't get back to battalion, then let me try SFAS or Special Forces, and and that means going to SFAS. And only because two of the guys that I know were in the medical course for my first three years there, they were in the medical course, washed out of the medical course, which I think is pretty common, I guess. And so they went to the 18 Delta Special Forces medical course. Yeah, and they ended up at four. That's how they got there. So when everybody's talking just shooting the shit around the campfire, they told their story, and that's how they ended up here. And I told my story about how I got there. And so they were on one was a comma guy, one was a comma guy, one was a medic. And so that just talking to those guys, they didn't they didn't for whatever reason they weren't allowed to, or they didn't want to, or something. They weren't going back. And so then I started entertaining that thought. I was like, well, that's that's that's next the next step. So if I can't go back to Italian, then I'll just let me try this. And that's that's a way. So I never never had my eyes like career-wise, or even something I even thought of doing, like going to the unit. I never thought of that, never heard about it, never I did hear about it when I was during my 82nd time because I knew guys who went to selection and then didn't make it. But you ended up going.

Host 3:19:59

But you ended up going to SFAS before you even went to Panama, right? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:20:02

And I was trying to go, uh, that was my my next step. Try the SF route. And so I put in my paperwork for that, and it gets accepted accepted. And when we're rotating back and forth the summer of 89, back and forth to Panama, like May, June time for everyone went to SFAS, Special Forces Assessment and Selection Course. And so they were all my guys were in in Panama. I go to Camp McCall, Fort Bragg to go through SFAS and made it.

Host 3:20:33

That was that was a challenging course in a lot of ways. Yeah, because and it's kind of important to talk about, right? So like you've you've done a lot of stuff in the military at this point. You, you know what I mean, you did all the infantry stuff, you've kind of bounced your way, you fought to get into Ranger Regiment, you go to Ranger School two or three times, get smoked, you never get dropped, but because you can't go TDY, you know, so you've kind of done the things, but you're kind of a physically fit guy. You're, you know, whatever. And and how was SFAS for you? And for those those that don't know out there, I'm pretty sure most people listen to this channel know, but special forces and SFAS, special forces assessment and selection is a three-week course where you go and that's where you assess to become a Green Beret if you get selected, then you go to the Q course, the qualification course for the Green Beret, it's an extremely long course, depending on you know what thing you had. But SFAS is no joke. It's a hard, it's a tough course.

SPEAKER_00 3:21:24

Yeah, it's a it's a tough course. And again, it was like it if there's so my whole mindset and and everything that I did, it's like I'm not gonna do something and you know not put 100% into it. So that was just another thing. It's like you, I don't, I don't care what you I don't care what's gonna happen. It's like just bring it, let me know what to do, and I'm gonna do it. And that was the that was different because you're with other people who are trying they're might not have the right mindset. So, and and you see that, and it's it's and it's kind of good in a way that you see that there in that selection course, and then they either quit or they just think they're gonna pass. Like they can pass, they can do minimum and pass and be okay, but it's all the guys that you're with, they're like, Yeah, yeah, I don't want to train, I don't want to serve with you if this is what makes it through, right?

Host 3:22:14

Yeah, ranger school, s and SFAS, they're two where you can get peered out, right? So you can make it all the way through special forces assessment and selection and still get, you know, not selected for peer evals.

SPEAKER_00 3:22:26

Yeah, yeah. And that's a huge part of it. And and I don't know the percentage of how how much that that factors into a guy getting a class date for the Q course. Probably pretty high, but I don't know that I don't know anybody that didn't make it. Well, I there are a few guys that didn't go on and get a Q course date. We don't find that out till way at the end of this thing. Most of the guys that I'm aware of quit. And it's like, all right, good reads. See ya. Tough physically, mentally, dealing with so it's uh it's kind of a leadership thing, too. So if you're in a leadership position and you're doing these uh these these odd things, whether it's ammo can shuttle run or whatever it is, there's there's some just crazy things you have to do. You have to put some thought into it. Whoever's designated the leader at the time has to organize these guys. There's there's just you get like jeep parts, and then okay, make this thing roll down the road. And it's and it's Camp McCall and Fort Bragg. So it's sand and just just not a good terrain to walk in, much less have these wobbly wheels, and you know, you're making you're making things, you're you're trying to think through the situation and make it happen, and you're not given the right stuff to do it with. Moving five-gallon water water drugs from one point to the other. So there's a scenario that they roll with it, this is why you're doing it, and you have to all you have to do is get all those five-gallon water drugs from there to there, and then organize your team accordingly and make it happen and go. So it's all decision making and and those kind of things. And sometimes if you were the type to say, Okay, guys, this is this is what we got to do. Get those from here to there, carry as many as you can, and then just let's do this. So there was that. So there was uh, and then if you're given the option to do like marginal work, you're gonna get marginal results. So you'll get you have a guy who's got one, he's running, and he thinks he can carry one and just do it faster, but you can't, it doesn't work out that way. So there's enough distance involved where you got to carry two or three. So there's guys throwing five jug five-gallon water jugs on their their rucksacks, and then they have two and they're running with three, and so 15 gallons of water plus your rucksack and your your weapon. So you have those guys who are max performers, and then the guy who grabs one and walks with that one. So then you start seeing a lot of that. Some of those guys that I know of don't make it, they're either peered out or they'd quit at one point because it's just too much. Talk about this one dude, he should have been okay with the the the humidity and the hot the heat in North Carolina during the summer, so May, June, June, July, or something like that time frame. It's hot and humid, and guys are having heat heat in like cat that's a concern. Drink water and salt tabs and all that stuff they're giving us, and the guy's still falling out big because of heat. Or is that just their lack of motivation, right? So in my mind, it's like I didn't I can perform without the same stuff that you're doing, and so you have no excuse other than you just aren't here to you, you're not you're not in the right mindset. So that was my my whole thing about that whole thing. And some of the guys that are there are in the same thing. It's like but they're coming out of the SF reserves too, reserve reserves and national guard. So they're not in the best shape, some of them, and they're definitely not ready for the that that selection course. So that happens too. They're just not physically in shape.

Host 3:26:20

What do you attribute that you did before SFAS that set you up for success?

SPEAKER_00 3:26:27

I'm not sure I did a lot of specific things for that. I thought I was ready enough in shape, doing infantry stuff, carrying a rucksack, and just that kind of stuff to do whatever it is that and I didn't know a lot about SFAS either, other than that's what you needed to go through.

Host 3:26:43

So, do you really attribute it to a mindset? I mean, we've heard it other people on the podcast, just that no quit mentality.

SPEAKER_00 3:26:49

And yeah, and and that's probably the uh the most common thing that in my mind through everything. It's like one, I wanted to do it, I wanted to do it enough, and I was passionate enough to do it, and then to do what it takes to pre prepare for it and then to deal with it later on. So success, good or bad, success or failure, what what am I gonna do? Right, and I never thought I was gonna fail anything, never never did until I got to my first Delta selection course and didn't make it. But it was all those things. So the and SFAS, there are people there though, you're with other people and you can motivate yourself. And sometimes as a squad leader or a leader in an infantry unit, too, you can motivate yourself by concerning yourself with your your soldiers, right? And so that there's that you can you can you can go somewhere else in your head to not worry about your own injuries and pain and all that stuff, your hunger, your cold, or whatever, because you're focused on your troops, right? That that that's a thing uh mentally that some guys get used to. And so in SFAS, you have that. You have guys that you have to motivate, and there's guys that are there to motivate you if you're you're you need some motivation.

Host 3:28:01

What was what what do you think the hardest part of SFAS was for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:28:07

Under well, dealing with the non-performers. I thought everybody was there for the same reason I was. And there's no way they could have been the way they were performing. It's like or their preparation. It's like you knew you knew where you were coming, right? You knew what you're getting ready to do. Why didn't you prepare yourself? Whether that was blistered feet, some people just blister feet straight up. The the the wear marks, the rucksack, shoulder straps and back pads, back pads, and those are the two hot spots that get blistered up, bare skin, all that stuff. Just rub raw. And there's a level of preparedness that you can get. There's a level that you actually get to. Like they're they'll like I'll I'll know myself, my body. If I'll get a I'll get a blister at like let's say 10 miles in my instep on my left foot, I'll get a blister at 10 miles into a road march. I'll know that because it always happens. And I doesn't matter what I do, I'll always get that blister at the 10 mile mark, and I know I've gone 10 miles when I feel uh feel the blister. Nobody knows themselves to that point. So they haven't done it enough to know themselves. Like it's gonna hurt, your back's gonna hurt, your shoulders gonna hurt, your feet are gonna hurt, it's just gonna be painful. But doing it enough before then, I already knew where those points were. And I already knew to expect it. I already already, you know, you so I don't I didn't go through any less in any less pain than anybody else. I just was more comfortable with it. I was used to it. Was there anything that surprised you about SFAS? The the the the low performance guys. I guess I tend to show up with everybody just doing 100% everything. But that's not the case.

Host 3:29:49

Yeah, and that was the difference I think between SFAS and Delta IV selection. Delta 4 selection is very individual, whereas SFAS is you're in a group. Yeah. So you you went to SFAS, you get selected, but you end up going to Panama, and then is that when you came back to go to the Q course? That's when I came back and I thought I was going to the Q course.

SPEAKER_00 3:30:11

Yeah, because there's a six-month window. You have to go from your SFS selection passing to your Q course date, and they give you the date that's within that time frame. But then Panama happens, and it was probably at like a December class date I had or something like that, or reporting date, whatever it is. And then we don't get back till probably late January, February, sometime. And I thought, well, okay, we'll get back here, download everything, I'll get right back into the SF train. And that that's when they said, Well, you have to go back to SFS again because it your six-month window closed. And it's like one of those things. Here you go. Door slammed in my face again. And but I was like, Well, whatever. Okay, I guess that's what I gotta do. Then I'll do it. So I got another class date, and that's even when that's even that's when I finally get exposed to this, the Delta Force recruiting thing. And there's there's guys in the army who they go through the records and they get a they get a card, they get an invitation in the army mail system. And it's a it's a mandatory thing you have to go to. So it's a mandatory appointment that nobody can stop you from going to. And that's it's all written on the the letter that they get. Show this to your first sergeants, your commanders, your training command, all that stuff. Because you're this is a mandatory briefing you have to make. And you can't even back out of it for any reason. Come up with another appointment. You gotta be there, even if it's just to be there, sign in and say you're out. So to some extent, I think that's what that letter. I never got one. I knew the guys in the unit, they're like, Well, I gotta go to this briefing, and they're all ho-humming. It's like, I don't want to do this. Did you know what the briefing was? I have to go. No. Oh, and so the not until then. So that I hear these guys complaining about this briefing they got to go to. And I was like, I was like, oh, cool. It's like, oh, I want to go to that briefing. I want to see what this is all about. That sounds cool. And then I saw at the same time frame they they put it out on the uh it wasn't the armed forces network, it was the base television channel. So that was a thing. All the activities on the base, road closures, exercises, loud noises, big bangs on the ranges, special events on the base, you know, whatever, Christmas stuff, and all that stuff. So the the the little banner on the the four-door channel was the Delta Force briefing at this auditorium, this date, and this time, if you're interested, your only failure is your failure to try, or something like that, and in the thing. And I saw that. I didn't I might have even seen that before. I the guys that I heard complaining about their briefing that they had to go to, but I saw it that phrase right there, your only failure is your failure to try. That caught me right away. And I asked these guys, I was like, so how do you get one of those invites? What did you guys do in your careers to get those invites? And they're like, I don't know, I didn't ask for this, they just I just got it. And so when they were handed their letters, and they're telling her first sergeants and their chain of command and all that stuff. I was so I'm trying to think, uh, I didn't think of you know even doing that ever. I saw the the the Grenada stuff, all the the write-ups gung-ho, Soldier Fortune magazine. It's the only thing that you that was around at the time. I remember reading about those guys and the Rangers and all that stuff, and I was like, I you know, I wonder if I can kind of just kind of just go. And so I just showed up with these guys. I showed up and they said, you know, whoever who's got a letter, right, hands raised, and who didn't have a letter, and I raised my hand, like, are you gonna tell me to leave now? Or you know, you didn't get an invite, so get the fuck out of here. And they said, Well, as long as you signed in, did you sign in on the you know attendance sheet? And uh I was like, Roger Shaw. And he's like, Okay, well, just have a seat, relax, and you know, we'll be underway whenever we get get everybody signed in. So they do their checks and balances and stuff like that. Raise hands, and then who wants to be here? They said, Who who because the guys that got invites, some of them didn't want didn't have any interest, like the guys I came with. They said, Who's got an invite? Hands right out, who didn't sign in here, and okay, who who doesn't want to be here? And a couple hands raised up, like, okay, did you sign in? Yes. Do you have do you have a letter? Yes. Okay, as long as you signed in, you're good to go. You can leave. You're free to go. And there was a little hesitation with some of the folks in the room, and look quiet, and that's all they said. Uh, you're free to go. If you want to be here, you're free to go. You've done what you you've you've met the requirements that we put out to you and your instructions. And so people are slowly getting up from their chairs and walking out, and they're just waiting. Uh, so I didn't know who was who. There's only like two people standing in front of the auditorium. This is the uh a theater on base. And so there's a recruiter, and then there's a squadron guy who's an operational guy. So he's he's there to answer questions. I don't know this yet, but that's what they eventually explain what's happening. And they explain all this stuff. The that and it was very like very matter-of-fact-ish, very it just what they showed me, just the stuff they're they were showing on this briefing. And the first thing, one of the first things was this is this is our training area, and it and screen lights up and it's a it's the globe. This is our this is our operational area, this is our training area, something like that. It's the globe. I was like, Oh, this is cool. This is cool, and then they end up showing videos, and the video is all the hot the all the cool stuff, you know, little birds everywhere, and people assaulting buildings, and you know, all the videos that they had, guys clearing rooms, and it's exciting. And I was like, Yes, yeah, that's badass. I want to do this, and that's the first time I really actually like committed myself to like whatever it takes to do that, that's what I want to do. And then so very after all the briefings done, you're they I introduce the the squadron guy that's there, and then and then you're able to ask questions. And I I don't I don't know anything about it, I don't know anything about the unit, their daily life or anything as I didn't have any questions. So and some of the guys are like, hey, so what's it like? Like what's it like? And then they're asked everybody, I'm let's just listen to other people asking the questions, what's it like? Like daily life. And I I want to say they were allowing spouses to come to that briefing too, I'm not sure. If you're married, you can bring your spouse or something like that. And the the questions were, you know, those stuff like that. And I didn't have any questions, so I was just listening to what's happening. I was like, wow, cool. And they said, Okay, well that concludes the the briefing. If you're still interested, we have the PT test on this date at this like the field on the base, and so ready for PT this time, this place. And then that's it. Everybody's okay, is this over? We left. And I was like, all right, well, let me get ready for this PT test. And back then, I don't know what what they're doing now, it was a five event PT test. So push-up, sit-ups, a run, dodge, and jump. I think run, dodge, and jump. Two-mile run, yeah. What is that? It was it's so it was old, it was a old school PT test. So they have little little pylons, and it's literally like a like a like a football drill. So there was things you had to jump through or kind of weave your way through. So you're running, you you you dodge and and stuff, and then there's a little pit or an area that it was you had to jump over, so you had to run, dodge these pylons, and then jump over this hurdle, and then whatever they it was just a uh two uh like tape on the ground that marked like jump over this. And the not the bear at the so that's a part of your two-mile run? No, that was separate of the yeah, and then the reverse, reverse crawl.

Host 3:38:26

So trap walk, god, I hate that thing, dude.

SPEAKER_00 3:38:29

Yeah, so those are the five events. I think I covered them all, and so some of those I've never done. I didn't know that until I showed up for the PT test. That's uh the PT test was. I was just regular push-up sit-ups, two mile run, is what I thought. And then you had the the other ones, so I did it, passed it, and they they told us, you know, okay, you you you passed the the PT test. And for those of you who had uh letters, so apparently if you get a letter, they've already looked at your administrative paperwork and your army stuff, and they that's all they said. Okay, you've passed the PT test, and for those of you who have paperwork, you know, we'll we'll talk to you later about a class date for selection. And for everybody who this is their first thing you've done with us, then we're gonna look at this. We'll get back to you with a class date. Probably never got a letter, dude, because you gone A-WOL. If if you if you're if you're suitable, you'll get a class date. And then so when I left there, I'm thinking they didn't say it that way, but it was I was thinking, okay, they were saying don't call us, we'll call you, right? Nope. And so that's what I left there with. I was like, okay, well, I'll feel good about myself. I'm a PT score. Okay, cool. Didn't think anything of it. And eventually I get orders to go to selection. How long did that take? Not very long. I don't remember it taking long at all. And the when my chain of command calls me in to give me my orders, and they because I told them I was going to the briefing that day when I went to the briefing and all that stuff. And so to them it was like, well, of course you want to go, right? It's like because you get into all that stuff. And then I got the orders and they're like, Well, I guess I guess we're gonna I guess you're going, you're we're gonna lose you. And so that so my first one I didn't make. So they thought, okay, well, of course you're gonna pass because you pass everything and you're superhuman and all this other crap. And they said, Well, I guess I guess you're not gonna continue with us to because they were gonna go to Korea, and I guess you're not gonna be with us in Korea. I was like, Well, I guess okay, sure, yeah. So they dropped me from roles, they they thought I was passing the first time, and they dropped me off of the deployment. So how how was the first selection? Oh eye-opening. So yeah, it was everything and then that I would ever have thought.

Host 3:40:54

Did you never thought?

SPEAKER_00 3:40:56

Did you try to prepare before you go? Do they give you any kind of like preparation? They they do. So it was more based off of, I think, based off of if you weren't in a hard skill like Ranger SF or infantry guy, then you should probably do this. And it was normal exercise stuff, but also the rucksacking to harden your feet, get used to carrying a rucksack with this much weight and all this other stuff. So I was thinking when I re read all this, I was like, okay, I'm good. Apparently not. So at that point, we've done 25 mile road march, 100 mile, 100-mile road marches, all this stuff, all this grunt stuff, just in pretty decent shape. And I and I didn't really know what kind of so how do you how do you prepare for a road march? Usually I'd be okay, just get your wreck, let's go. Right. And so that's kind of the mindset I had. It's like, well, okay, I'm just gonna get my wreck and go. And then stop when I they tell me to stop. And the even the uh where I was in Fort Ord. So our exercise was the Los Padres National Forest or something like that. It's a national forest, it's huge, mountainous. And so I was like, okay, I'm good. I think I'm good. And so I prepared myself. I worked out, did some road marches, I did some short, short distance road marches, you know, a lot of six mile, two mile, just to see how fast I can do it. I'm really almost just getting a time reference for me, like two miles. How long does it take me to like run two miles? And how long does it take me to do six miles? So I'm just getting a baseline of my performance. And in two hours, instead of doing like a pace count kind of thing, keep track of where you're going, doing a time distance thing. So I'm just okay, if I run with this much weight in my rucksack, how long is it? Uh how far have I gone? That kind of stuff. And I but I don't know that what's going to be expected of me. So I'm actually jogging or jog walking and all this other stuff, and getting those time references down, and then feeling all the pains that I'm gonna feel, all the hot spots and the blisters and all that stuff, and just getting that, get my feet prepared and my back prepared, shoulder waist, and all that stuff. But it apparently it wasn't enough when I got there because I don't, however long I made it, I made it to, I guess, pretty, pretty decent into this the course. And at one point, though, I'm told to get on something warm and dry, wait for your ride back, and go go to the didn't make it check. And I was like, huh. So, but leading up to that though, there were so many things I was like, no way, there's no way I'm doing well enough right now because I was just beat up.

Host 3:43:37

What do you, what were the what was the main difference? I mean, again, you've been through SFAS, you've gone to Ranger School a couple times. Yeah. You know, what was what was some of the main differences you saw between, you know, going to Delta Selection and going to like SFAS?

SPEAKER_00 3:43:55

Well, it was it was m more you're fighting yourself. You're you're competing against yourself. So it all depends on uh how how you think about you know your performance. So for me and a lot of guys that I've heard that have passed and gone through the course, it was you're never going fast enough. It's like what can I do to keep going faster? And then then something happens, like, oh, I've got a cramp, but I gotta keep going, right? Because those the all those things happen. I'm not or or like in my case too, and just in navigation, I'm navigating and I'm more or less orienteering, not like any other kind of type of navigation on on the ground, right? Orienteering. I looked at a map, I got a general direction, and now I'm just terrain associating my my way around the mountains of West Virginia and Pennsylvania, Maryland, all that stuff. And I missed this one turn. And if you miss miss a draw, like a valley, like a full-on train feature. If you miss one for me and one one one of the places I went to, then it means I just added another mountain and more time, which is not good. And running past this down this major valley, I'm thinking, okay, there's one, there's two, there's three. I go up this map, the third one, or whatever it was, I make a right and head north, and up to the top of the hill I go, there's my point. So I'm running, there's one, there's two, there's three, and I up to the top of the hill, and I get to the top of the hill, and this is not this is not a this is a mountain, and I'm fighting all the mountain laurel and all these obstacles because you can't you can't use roads and trails. So you're on the sides of mountains. So I get to the top, I'm thinking, I get to the top, I look up, there's gonna be my rendezvous point, my guy that I gotta check in with, and I get there, and there's nothing. And I look down the ridgeline, and it's a it's a barren ridgeline. So I want to say my first one was in the fall time, so no vegetation on top of this hill on the trees. So I can I can see forever and in West Virginia. So I'm on the top of this mountain in West Virginia, just I can see everything, and I see this one church. I was like, I don't remember a church in my planning route and my route planning thing, and I and I look across and I see what a like an orange VS 17 panel on another ridge line not close to me. And looking at my map, I was like, what? I was like, there's no way. There's no, this is where I need to be. And I was like, there's no way, there's no way I'm here, and I see the church, and I don't want to see what I see, right? I see the church, I see my location, I see the the red oriented uh getting my map oriented to the ground, and I didn't want to believe what I'll the situation I was in. It's like church, me position. It's like church, me position. And I kind of didn't tried to deny it at at first because there's no way I would have made that kind of a mistake, and then I just said, Well, I guess I did. And so straight line, uh, the quickest between two points, right? Straight line. So I can either follow the train and go not straight line and go all the way around, add time, distance, and all this other stuff with my with my marching, or I go straight line, which means I go straight down and then straight back up. And I kind of did halfway. I was trying to stay as high as I could on the elevation and go around this big valley, and then I wouldn't have that much of a climb at the end, but because of the the the train, I ended up going around and then as I'm coming, I'm going right back down to the bottom, and then ended up climbing that mountain anyway. And those kind of things, all that's all I knew. It's like I could I could have taken my time to do that, or in my head, I I can't get there fast enough, and I'm already behind. So those are the things that kind of eat at you over time. Little mistakes like that, trips and falls, boom, got my head bashed in on a rock. And now I'm now I'm dizzy, and now I'm burning time. I need to keep going, you know, and I got time to get hurt, right? Kind of thing. Yeah, and yeah, it's all it's all it's all you in your head, and trying to literally trying to do the best you can, it whatever is in front of you. And yeah, you you couldn't go fast enough. There was you were always going too slow in my mind. I was always going too slow.

Host 3:48:34

And I know they don't like it's a gentleman's course, but it's also they don't give you task condition and standard per se, they just give you the task.

SPEAKER_00 3:48:42

Yeah, yeah. Be here time and place, in the right uniform, and you're good. That it's that and so land navigation isn't that hard either. So no, it's not difficult. It's it's the environment they put you in that makes it difficult.

Host 3:48:55

What after you're told you didn't make it, like how did you deal with that mentally?

SPEAKER_00 3:49:04

I don't know, because they don't tell you either, but they tell you that. They said, uh your portion of this uh selection assessment is is over with. You did not make the standards. We understand you don't know the standards, and you know, something something along those lines, but you'll be given a certificate for your time here that you you completed a course. So something for your records to prove that you were doing something during this time. It's not just void time, uh blank space in your records. It's they'll give you something a certificate of training to to cover that time frame. It's like, okay, and then they tell you that, and and we'll we'll talk to you. So you're actually talking to, I don't, it it's not a it's not a board like when you pass, like all the sergeant majors and commanders of the unit. It's it's the selection committee. And they're they they tell you that collectively, they tell you, there's a couple questions I don't remember what they asked me. Well, one of the questions was if we allowed you to, would you want to come back? And I said, Yes. And the the question, question, questions, whatever they asked me, and like how do how do you think you did, all this other stuff. And I said, Well, uh there was sometimes there are questions like there's no way you guys are gonna take me if I'm perfect doing this, just just not not a good day. And I had too many not a good days and in my head, and uh to some extent to to however I phrase that, that's kind of what I said. I was like, you know, you guys said you're gonna have a bad day, get over it and keep going. But I I probably just had too many bad days, and that just I just got too far behind. And I I explained that. They're like, okay, yeah, pretty accurate assessment of your performance, and we will allow you to come back if you want to at some date in the future. You don't have to give us an answer now, but we are telling you you're allowed to come back and try again. And uh that was that was enough for me. I was like, well, all right.

Host 3:51:08

Did they give you any assessments of your performance, or was just like, no? So you kind of don't know what you failed at, and you really don't know how to train for, you just knew you had to train to do better, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:51:17

Yeah, and two guys, so well, also what I got out of it too, though. So I understood what two guys that I knew that left a selection when I was in the 82nd, like eight years before that that moment, when I wasn't even thinking about it, they came back and everybody's asking them when they got back after they didn't make it. Yeah, they're they they like how to how to go, what was it like? And they're like, well, we can't talk about it, but they were impressed. Like the way it was handled, the way they handled themselves, it was the most professional school we've ever been to. And I don't even know if they were asked to come back or allowed to come back or anything like that, but they said, nope, they're not going back because they honestly gave it their 110% effort, and they were told it wasn't good enough. And that and then they said that when I asked those questions to them, and and I was like, Oh wow, that that that says a lot. That says a lot for you, but also about the the course. And I didn't think I need to go to this thing at the time, I didn't even think about it. I was still trying to get the battalion. And but when I when I got to that point and they said I didn't I didn't pass the selection course, so you're gonna be you got your option, you know, window seat or aisle, and you're going back to Korea and all this other stuff. Uh I think some that was one of the questions too. What do you what or no? That was when I passed. They asked me a question, what I would what I would do if I wasn't selected? What would I be doing? And all I said was, well, I guess I go back and do some own grunt stuff, keep marching forward with my infantry life. And and then I'm thinking in my head though, I'll probably go back to SF selection and try to get the hue course and all this other stuff. I was like, well, I guess I'll just go back to being a soldier. And I guess that was enough. And that was enough for me too to kind of assess that's not over. So they leave the door open, you can you can come back. Will it will it? And they I think they actually said that we will allow you to come back and try again. I was like, wow, okay. So for me, that was enough to think about it, what I need to do, what I how my performance was, all totally is they're not telling me what I did right or wrong. So it's all up to me to figure out what I did right or wrong and then come back and try it again. And really what I'd changed on the second time, all up here, all mindset. I was the I wasn't even thinking I was so when I first the first one, I was thinking, and like in most schools, I don't want to get hurt because that's gonna they're gonna recycle me back to the next class and it's gonna extend my time here in this course. That's what like everybody in Ranger School fears. It's like, oh, just as long as I don't get hurt, I can just keep moving forward, right? Because otherwise, it's more weeks in this course. So that's kind of the general thought process in any army school. And I had no like so, yes, I was doing more rucksack marches. I was in Korea and I was actually doing my rucksack marches in the DMZ in like these minefields, and they're there's cleared paths through the minefields and they're marked and everything else, and that's what my training ground was. I just thought that was cool, and but I did more of that, did more sprint work, more legwork, joint stretches, and that kind of stuff, and then went back and tried again, and it was really all in my head. I was in a totally different mindset. I didn't even think like preserve myself or if I get hurt, I didn't even think that at all. I was like, you know what? Whatever it is from here to there, right to that, 100%, 110, just get there. And I was my mind was clear of any other clutter of that. So for me, that was the biggest thing. A little bit smarter preparation. I didn't hurt myself. I had to be prepared when I got there. I didn't want to be peaked at my performance level, I wanted to be on the way up to my peak when I got there, and then yeah, just mental. That that's I don't know how you would get prepared prepared to that, really, other than yeah, right there in the head.

Host 3:55:20

What so you make it through selection the second time? Is there anything that you did different between the first and the select, the second selection as far as training? Was it all just mindset?

SPEAKER_00 3:55:32

Yeah, I was more more deliberate training, and I couldn't get distance because I was in the DMZ. So, but I got terrain because it's hilly and all that stuff in the in the DMZ, and then mindset. I don't I don't know it. I I didn't do anything for that. I didn't like get all zen and do all kinds of yoga and all that stuff to get mentally prepared. I just was mentally prepared to just leave it all on, just just go, just just get some, just do the best I can as and that's that's really all I did. It's like just do the best you can. And then I screwed up the same thing because that they changed so they changed the the routes if you're coming back, especially. There's some of the things that are changed around differently. So I went back that one day that I screwed up from one resign to the next. So I actually I didn't I didn't remember the thing. I didn't like there were some guys there who were like great memories because the other guys that didn't make that class were in my next class too. And they knew exactly what we were doing on a particular day, and then but it switched up. So I was like, wow, how do you even remember that? And they just took mental notes of what happened their first time. I was like, dude, I don't even I don't know what we did from day to day. And then until I until I got out of the truck, because you're kind of you know surprised, hey, okay, this is your start point. So as soon as I got out of the truck that one day, I was like, oh shit, I remember this, this terrain. And and I was like, okay, well, I know where the wrong valley is, the walk, the wrong draw. So I can't screw this one up. So I started running. And at the whatever point I was, it's like one, two, three, that's the false draw, four. I'm going up the fourth one, and up I go, and I get to the top of this ridge, same ridge line. So different times of the year, too. So I go fall, winter, and then the next one was winter in the fall. So I don't know, maybe that messed me up. I don't know, but I messed up that same that same the same valley, yeah. I get to the top of the ridge line and I look up and I see the church. I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

Host 3:57:44

Oh man. And I was like, reluctantly, look over to my left across the valley.

SPEAKER_00 3:57:50

Orange VS 17 pedal. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. And it's like, okay, here we go.

Host 3:57:57

You just beat feet to the next point. Yeah. What was uh what was the final board like? Was it what you thought it would be?

SPEAKER_00 3:58:04

Or oh hell no, I didn't expect that at all. So, first of all, Starstruck. What so there so when I go, so there's still all these guys are Desert One dudes. And so I don't know, you know, I'm I guess this is what late 80s, early 90s? This is uh 9091 time frame. So these guys are all like all the commanders and sergeant majors of the unit now. And the docs are in there, and everybody, and the psychologists want to say docs, and then the physical docs, and they're all you know, looking at my physical condition and all that stuff, I guess. But that's all I was thinking. That overwhelmed my thought process when I was sitting there by myself in this chair in this wall of people, and then they introduced they these are the serum majors and the commanders of the unit and all this other stuff, and all I could think of was like these are these are those guys. I was starstruck, I was like so like gobsmacked on, dude. I want to shake all your hands right now. But I was like, I'm trying to be professional, and uh and that that's when I started thinking, I was like, holy crap! Like, so these are the guys I'm asking to join. That's when it really hit me. I was like, holy shit. And as they're asking me questions, I'm not really I'm not so I'm zoning out on my my my Starstruck stuff, right? Like, dang, dude, these dudes are you know, these are the shit, right? And at one point I must have had that look on my face, but they said just calm down and relax, and just you know, and I was like, okay, what are you talking? What do you see? It's like I honestly was just impressed with the group of folks I had in front of me. I was like, man, these I'm asking these dudes to be on their team. I was like, who am I to ask that kind of question, right? And and pretty much they have that attitude, though, like, who are you who you know, like telling me, you know, what do you bring into this party, right? So those if if and given those options to ask that to answer those kinds of questions, and they're kind of I don't remember the questions, but it's more or less that. It's like, what do you bring into this table? And I'm looking at this table going, Holy shit, I ain't got enough. No, there's no way. How am I gonna pick compare to you guys? And I've tried a lot of things, but no way. I I don't know, and I actually just started rattling something off. You know, something about my engineer background, I got a diverse background, infantry, engineering, grenade, grenade qualified. Yeah. So the I just I just knew I had to say something, and so those are the things that are coming out, and everything that I said was just like that was stupid, you know. I'm thinking in my mind, okay, that was dumb. Um those guys aren't gonna be impressed by that, right? And and they probably weren't, and uh, it was just interesting. It was interesting to be probably the most memorable. I wish I could remember some of the questions they asked me, but I just remember that being totally just starstruck with these guys. And then and then so to for me, when they when they said, because I've heard some of some of my teammates and guys who were at the unit, they're like, Well, yeah, I mean, I didn't um you know they're just dudes to me, you know, kind of thing. It's like dude, not to me. And so when they said to for whatever, so you you you have this little interview, and then you go away, and the I don't know if they actually said it, but it's like, okay, go away so we can talk about you kind of thing. So we can decide your future, something like that, right? And I don't know if they actually say that, but that's the how I left the room. It's like, oh shit. Now I'm thinking, oh, that was some stupid shit. Why did I say that? You know, kind of stuff. And the sergeant major at the time of the I was running selection, he comes out and he said, So, how do you think you did? And I was like, I don't know, man. I came all this way, made it to this point, and I don't remember the questions. I was I was like, Yeah, uh, you know, there's no I tried to impress him with that. Are you kidding me? And he's like, Miss, calm down, it's okay. You did well. We'll see. They're talking about your future right now, so we'll see. He's like, but he didn't, he didn't like he wasn't like consoling me or motivating me or saying it's okay, hey, you made it just so you know, or anything like that. He was just like, don't worry about it, they'll they'll make their decision, and yeah, then it'll be done. And so they kept kept us in this this little the this hot box. The the it's like the the transition point in a building, right? You got an outer door and inner door, and right in the middle, it's like a four-year kind of place. So, but for me, it's like dang, it's hot in here. Yeah, did you guys turn up the heat or what? So they asked me to come in, and so they're they're addressing you now. It's the first time they started addressing you by hey seren porsk can come back in and they tell you take a seat. And again, I don't remember the conversations that we're having, and I didn't know anybody in the unit, and I didn't only what I've read and what very few articles I've read about, you know, the unit and stuff like that. So and I've heard some things like, well, in that environment, there and they're hearing like this, these stories or something like that. Like, well, in that environment, it sounds like it's a like a good old boy network kind of thing. It's like I didn't know anybody. I will I didn't know it. I didn't even think about this till the last minute. So, yeah, no, they're really just picking, picking the right guy, whatever that is. I mean, I still don't know what that is. I know I made it, I know what I went through to get there, and but all the other guys are so diverse in their backgrounds and their histories and what they came from, how they prepared, and it's really a full look. So I think that's the huge thing apart because that's only the like the formal selection part of it. Everything you did in your career is also part of that, your selection to get there. So That's there that's all encompassing and the decision that I know, but I don't know what exactly you know what the threshold is on stuff because I got in trouble as a young soldier and all that stuff.

Host 4:04:19

And did your AWOL thing ever come up?

SPEAKER_00 4:04:22

Yeah. That came up several times after then and and after that. Yeah. That so and that was the thing even for promotions afterwards. Eventually that comes back to again. And I keep having to explain what happened. And then they're okay. And on on to the next thing. They finally were able to the the personnel NCO uh personnel office at the unit who's actually finally able to clear that up. They're finally able to, okay, we got to get rid of this. Otherwise, you're not going any further than whatever pay grade that was. Probably E7, E8. I don't know. I was like, okay, well, I don't know if that's possible, but how long was your how long was your selection for that course? Well, if you're counting everything before that too, like 10 years. But the actual formal portions only, I don't know, a month, I think.

Host 4:05:15

So you so you get selected and then you go through OTC? Yeah. How was that? Was it the same like don't give you anything, or is it more more formalized? This whereas like you're kind of getting included. Formal training.

SPEAKER_00 4:05:29

Yeah. And probably, and and again, from now having a training company, that's and and what I was doing with my troops. It's like, okay, so all you have to do with with soldiers is meet these, you know, basic criteria. You know, that that's it. So for me, it was always though, and my experience at regiment for that short brief time, is like, okay, well, if if you think you're gonna survive here and doing minimal standards, yeah, you got you got another thing coming. So that's kind of where I develop the stuff now. I'm I'm not the the training concepts, right? Like OTZ, very professional. This is what you gotta do. These are the standards. Is it a crawl walk run or is it a run, run fast, and run faster? Depends on what it is. Some of the things that are normal, like well, I say normal, but like basic skills stuff. But it's there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff involved there from you know dignitary protection to CQB and shooting guns and tradecraft and everything is involved here, and then physical, mental stuff, you know, eye hand and eye coordination drills and all these other things that are involved. I mean you're doing a lot of stuff, a lot of dry fire, which I was fine with. I've heard that.

Host 4:06:43

I've heard that they do up to a month in the shoot house before they shoot a live round.

SPEAKER_00 4:06:47

Probably, yes. Uh, I don't know the exact time frames of all that stuff, but I remember thinking so you a lot of people in in the in the military in general, even if you're issued a pistol, you don't shoot that except to qualify with quarterly or maybe twice a year or once a year, depending on where you're at in the army. So I had a I had a beretta back in the day, right? When I was a machine gunner, but I never shot that beretta except to qualify with it. And so I never really touched a handgun. I had a couple rifles, hunting rifle, and a shotgun. And that was it. I took it to the range myself, went out hunting and and Ford Ord and all that stuff, but that was it, right? So the the basic stuff, the dry fire stuff, that's where I that's where I learned the value of dry firing. Just like before we got on the range, I remember, oh man, yeah. I remember the conversations in there uh of all the class, my classmates, and some of the guys have have guns of their own, they practice, they train, they compete, and all that stuff. I never did that stuff. And so they were saying, okay, enough already. It's like, my god, my hands are from dry far. And and and it's all just so I kind of understood the value of it while we were doing it, and so it's all the the basic fundamentals, the basic mechanics of shooting, making sure that your stance is good in different environments, how your stance affects everything, your grip, presentation, all that stuff, and this over and over and over and over again. And there are some guys who are like, Oh, enough for it, let's shoot some real guns, right? And then we do. And then for me, I could I immediately saw the the value of dry firing after that, and so did the guys that were like just impatient and wanting to shoot more earlier, and yeah, all those things, all the basic stuff. So it's like, okay, we get it, you've been here, you've been there, you're coming from here and there, but this is why we're gonna do it here. So bringing everybody on the same sheet of music, and it was a uh there's there's no there's no type of so when when you talk about crawl, walk, run stuff, yeah, sometimes so it's the crawl crawl and walk portions of that are if you don't get it there, because we're gonna start running like quickly. So crawl, walk, and then run, run, run, run, run. And then you better keep up. And it's really just if you if you're there, if you're there mentally for do that stuff, and all the guys that I was with did well, past OTC went on to operational squadrons and stuff like that. So we were all in doing a lot of extra work too. Full full training days. But let's say if it was pistol rifle or if it was a hand and eye coordination drill or something like that, or combatives, you know, let's work, let's roll it tonight, and then I gotta get this thing down because it's I'm not getting it. I can't, I can't get my arm wrapped around your neck this way, or whatever it was, right? Combatives and all the stuff, you know, it was a constant thing. A lot of lot of homework, a lot of extra time put in stuff. So some of the guys were seeking, like if there was a good shooter as an example. Let's talk shooting for a second. If there's a good shooter and he was he's getting it, he's better than everybody, then that night we'd hey, what do you what are you doing, man? What how are you able to do this so like good? And he'd say, Well, this is what I do, and then then we practice that. So there was a lot of that too. So there's long days already training, and then there's the after hours after you know, doing other things, doing uh PT, because there was always never enough PT too. So a lot of times you had to squeeze that in there too, and a full training day, it's like, well, we're not gonna, we're not gonna make sure that you do PT. You just you know you need to do PT, right? So whatever we do today, if it's not an official event, you better do some PT. Because it's gonna start showing in performance. So long days and just expectations, those that's where you get you know, the expectation. This is the requirements, and don't seek to achieve these requirements. You better seek these are we're gonna find out when we get to the squadron. These are like minimum requirements, yeah.

Host 4:11:12

Because then it just goes up from there. How does the squadron selection go? Is it like the like an NFL draft? Pretty much, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11:20

I didn't know anybody, and they asked so they ask if there's a particular squadron you want to go to. I was like, I don't know one from the other, and I don't know anybody here. So I know the guys I just went through OTC with, and that's it. Yeah, I'm not and I'm not sure exactly when how that happens, but I was told I'm going to the squadron I went to. I was like, all right, cool. Were you an A squadron guy? No, I was in B. Oh.

unknown 4:11:48

Yeah.

Host 4:11:49

Um they have different like Yeah, there's a whole different like mantra for with each squadron. Different personalities, yeah. Yeah. And I think I don't know. Yeah, because one's Ranger Heavy, one has a lot of SF dudes, and then I don't remember the I've heard a couple of good answers. Yeah. What was B Squadron's? I have good hair. What was what was B Squadron's like vibe? Oh, it's it was cool. It was total man camp.

SPEAKER_00 4:12:18

Man cave, knuckle dragger, you know, just hard asses. That's probably true in other squadrons too, but that was that was cool. I loved my time there.

Host 4:12:27

Uh one of the things I remember you telling me when we were doing podcast prep is like, you know, you're going through OTC and like now you're at the Chow Hall at the unit and you're seeing dudes coming back from Desert Storm that were like, you'd seem like dudes are actually injured. Yeah. Uh one of our cadre and OTC was uh recovering from an injury too.

SPEAKER_00 4:12:43

And so that that the uh so coming from okay, been to Panama and all that stuff too, but coming from Peacetime Army to that, it's like so that that's so it's like that's what we signed up for. Absolutely, this is what we signed up for. They are in it, they're in the shit. That's what we signed up for. So that kind of adds a little bit more motivation for me and probably my classmates in OTC to say, yep, we made the right decision, and this is exactly where we need to be.

Host 4:13:12

Tell us, tell us the van story, how the how they uh uh they start asking you if you're you're in the chow hall, and they start asking, hey man, were you in Panama?

unknown 4:13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:13:21

So that happened actually at when I finished the second selection. They came in and and sought me out in the uh the barracks, or we're waiting on our board, and a couple guys stopped in and were asking, hey, where's where's Sarum Porris? And hey, sir and porst, congratulations. You were in Panama, right? Yeah. And then they leave. It's like, okay, cool. Hey, congratulations, and then leave. And that happened, two guys stopped by, I think, something like that. And that happened again when I get to the unit and in OTC. And like, hey, you're that guy, you were in Panama. What what? You're in Panama, right? Yeah. And like, okay, cool. Hey, congratulations, made it here, and then take off. So there's there was there's one call out. So when I go to selection, I think it was my first one. Oh, actually, something happened. What probably Desert Storm or something like that, right? So and my had to be in my second selection course. So I go through there, and there's there's the older guy, the older mature guys are running the course, and they're old and scruffy, you know, squadron guys. And at one point they they disappear and the new guys come in. And some of those guys were in the previous class that I was in. I was like, You guys are now here, you just passed it, and now you're however six to eight months later, whatever it was, you're back here running selection. I was like, I guess that's how it works. But there was a call out, and all those guys got pulled back to to brag to go whatever call out that was, and then they just took that class to run selection. And I guess that was the decision that was made because those are the guys I saw. Some guys I didn't recognize, some guys I did. I just I was in the last class with. I was like, huh. All right, I guess that's what I can get forward to looking at. Up, you know, I didn't know what's going on. And in our class, oh, actually, when I'm running, I'm at a selection course during '93. I think that was my first one I went to. We get ready in '92 to go to Mogadishu, then it rotates out. We rotate out to support, and we go, we're going to go to run a selection course. And so we're at selection, that goes down, and we're called back to oh, so you were cadre for an OTC or for a selection course. Yeah. So we go back, we get recalled back to Bragg and we're packing bags. We're going to assume the standby squadron while everybody else is going to Somalia and continuing the fight. And then they replace us with I don't know. I don't even know who went out there. It had to be someone like in the selection committee or something like that. And they went out there to do that. And the students that were there then, or the candidates that were there then, said the same thing. It was like, hey, what's going on? There's something weird going on. Because the older mature guys were here first, and then they ripped out and they got these young guys here. And yeah, what's going on? So that was when I heard that later when they got to the guys who made it and went to the squadron, they thought that was kind of a neat thing. But ironically, too, that happened to me. And that was, I think it was a desert storm or something like that. That they had to be recalled.

Host 4:16:19

So you get to the unit man and you're you're doing the thing that you've dreamed about doing. What what's a daily life? I mean, what what was a normal day as a squadron operator? Or was there a normal day ever?

SPEAKER_00 4:16:35

Oh yeah, it was it it was it it's uh it's just fun. You just did whatever you ever ever you wanted to do all day, every day, all week. There's usually uh there so every week, so you they'll also know that you're putting in the time, so you get like extended weekends and stuff like that sometimes. So uh, and that'll even be down to the team. If the team started, if you you're running your guys all week really hard, then you're doing that because so you can get an extra day on the weekend, you either do Monday or Friday, and uh give the guys a day off, and you just relax for three days and then come back and start hitting it again. So there was that also. Uh everybody knows how hard you you're you're going. And so as soon as you show up Monday morning, at one point there's an there's an intel update. What's going on in the world? What do we need to be ready for? That's kind of how it drives a train for the rest of the week. How are you gonna train and what you're gonna get prepared for? Types of missions and all that kind of stuff. And then throughout the week, and then definitely at the end of the week, you'll get another intel, like, hey, what's going on? What do we tell you on Monday? How's that progressed? How's that degraded? And and what's what's hot? What's hot over the weekend when you're gone? You know, if your pager at the time goes off, what are what is it most likely gonna be? So that was it, and then everything else. Oh man, it could be any number of things. It could be tradecraft, field craft, it could be you know, team, definitely team stuff, team PT, log drills, all kinds of stuff, motorcycles. If you wanted to get better at riding motorcycle, you're at the motorcycle track with your bikes. Off-road, if you're you know, it's we're off in the off-road course. I'm bragging, you know, going to do that stuff.

Host 4:18:08

Did your squadron have like a training NCO who like puts a training plan together? Is it just all by like more troop individual stuff?

SPEAKER_00 4:18:14

It's more team stuff. Yeah. So team sergeants had total control of how their team was gonna train day to day. And it was always something. It was all you know, like even the there was always the competition. So there's they they have a huge pool there, it's probably Olympic size, whatever that demon dimensions of that thing is. So there's always like a physical at the end of the week, you either do like you either collectively or you definitely do it as a team, like competition stuff. Yeah, it's gonna be running marathon, and and then it's like not just running, you're gonna do a marathon or triathlon, usually what it was. Bike, run, bike, swim, over the range, obstacle course, over to this range, shoot these guns, you know, CQB stuff, climb, climb, not just do CQB, but it's like okay, everybody can blow the door, go through the front door, and you know, start doing CQB. We're gonna you're gonna have to climb to the roof. So now there's some climbing involved with all your kid on, get to the roof and start from top down, or any number of different variations of that you can do. If you had helicopters, yep, we're jumping on helicopters and stuff. And on that note, too, though, that training training alone was dangerous enough. It was it guys got hurt and guys got shot, guys got almost killed, and all kinds of so helicopters, you work with helicopters, they're gonna come, they're gonna fall out of sky. You do it enough, you're gonna be on one that falls out of the sky. I was fortunate enough not to be on one that ever fell out of the sky, but we're getting ready to, as an example, we're doing little bird training and we're we're trying to we're we're practicing shooting out of the helicopter at at vehicles to stop them. And so little birds are taking us up. We do some gun runs and we're shooting things. And I was at the end of the uh one of our ranges that we were on, and we're all waiting on in an area where we're just waiting for our time to go on the little bird and do our shooting. And little bird takes off, it's taking off, and it's getting ready to take one of the guys on one of the pods, and he's gonna do his his his run and shoot something, shoot vehicles. The helicopter was crashing. So it what we saw at the end of this at the big open field that we're at, and we're sitting by the trucks and we're waiting for our time, we're just bullshitting, and helicopter starts coming up, and then they're gonna just take off, right? Well, they were having issues, so whatever the issues they were having, uh, the helicopter went up and didn't come off the ground that far, and then then it started its forward moment motion, and it was coming right at us. So we thought, you know, they're gonna, you know, throttle out and do some cool stuff and circle around and get this guy some trigger time. And what was happening was they were fighting to get elevation, altitude, because the plane was going down, they didn't have the power, and we thought it was just cool because it's coming right at us. We're like, oh, this is cool. I'm on the back of this pickup truck and I'm waiting for my next ride. I'm just watching, and I'm getting pictures because I'm still practicing my photography and all that stuff, and the helicopter starts coming right at us, and we thought, hey, he's just doing a cool, you know, show-off run kind of thing. And so I'm on the back of a pickup that I'm on, I'd I'd jump off the truck and do that. It's so low. And I was like, okay, that was cool, but bang, you know, he swings around really quickly and then sets it down and shuts it off. And we're like, hey, what's going on? Well, the guy that was on there, he's like, he he comes off thinking saying stuff like, like, I just almost died, and we you almost took you guys out with me. And he's like, so the the plane, the helicopter's down, end of the end of the training day for us. Something's wrong with the helicopter, they don't have lift, something's they gotta fix it. And then he explains to us that yep, that the helicopter was crashing as it was coming toward toward us, and just he managed to get enough lift to to clear us before he swung it around and put it on the deck.

Host 4:22:24

Yeah, I've talked about this before, especially dealing with you know tier one special operations, you know, that the job that special operations does is inherently dangerous, so you have to train for those dangerous situations. And I mean, I I saw some crazy statistic the other day, but we have lost a ton of people in the last 10 years or 20 years in training. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's in the thousands, yeah, uh, which is pretty, pretty wild.

SPEAKER_00 4:22:47

A lot of helicopters involved in that. A lot of guys down in the Florida Gulf area, the Pensacola area, and those guys flying around there. There's been some pretty pretty bad crashes.

Host 4:22:58

Did you ever have a mentor inside of the unit that like helped you, or was you just on your own to kind of sort it out as a new guy?

SPEAKER_00 4:23:04

So the for me, it was the selection sergeant major who who I talked to in Korea when he comes back to recruit us again on another recruiting trip. And that was after I failed the first one. He come and I have a conversation with him in Korea. He doesn't doesn't tell me anything still, he just says, When he he's glad to see me come back. You okay? You physically okay to do this? And I was like, Yeah. And he's like, Okay, so good luck again. Do the best you can. And so there was that guy, he was a sergeant major in selection at the time. He's one of the Desert One guys, too. And there's several of those guys that I really looked up to, always kind of resource those guys to ask questions and just be around and see how they acted, right? And then then my team sergeants, all great guys. Very, very mentor kind of leadership styles they had. Instead of and there was some of that, like like move your ass or you know, do that shit kind of stuff. But like, how do I get how do I get faster at this? It's like, well, we'll move your ass faster. It's like, okay, Roger that. So there was a little bit of that initially. It's like it's a CQB, holy crap. That was another thing when I first got you get the squadron, you're you're okay, you're at this level now, and then you run through with your team, it's like, oh, you totally overwhelmed with like newness, and you're way behind the power curve. And then it's like, hey, keep up, right? That's that's kind of the buzzword that that was used too about the new guys. Hey, just keep up, throw chem lights. It's like, all right, Roger that. It's like, oh shit, you're gonna be throwing chem lights, I'm gonna be up front, right? And no, that's not the case. But at one point you become that guy, and so my team sergeants, and also so as a breacher, I have a a senior breacher that's coaching me along to be a team breacher. And so those those few guys, those are the guys I'm probably most interacted with early on.

Host 4:25:07

Did you I mean I I know that the Delta and a lot of other tier one units as well, there's a lot of different specialties within the you know the squadron, the troop, etc. When you first show up, do you like hey, I want to be a breacher, a sniper, dog guy, whatever. How is that stuff sorted out there? Is it just like, hey man, you're the new, you're the new medic or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 4:25:26

Yeah, so you know what? I don't know. Well, well, so I do know so everybody knows your history, they know your file, and they know what your history, your your where you're coming from, what you've done, and all that stuff. So even when I'm guessing, even when they select what squadron you're going to, those guys, the commander and the sergeant major, know they've already looked at everybody's file, and they know already they have their mindset on who who would be suitable for them. Based on their own vacancies and stuff that they need in their squadron. Yeah. Yeah. And that's even goes down all the way to the team level. I don't know what they knew. Well, so they did they knew I was an engineer and they knew I was a had all these MOS. In the engineer background, so they were like, You're gonna be the team breacher. He's the breacher right now, he's gonna teach you everything that he knows. And he was an 18 Charlie actually, SF. He was a 12 Bravo engineer, and then he went SF and he was 18 Charlie, so SF engineer. So he was he was he had a shit together. And so that that's hook just snap-blinked on to him, and he taught me everything I needed to know about breaching.

Host 4:26:33

You mentioned that you had a lot of good team sergeants early on in the unit. What did good leadership look like inside the unit? Calm, violent, surgical, funny.

SPEAKER_00 4:26:43

Yeah, a little bit of everything, really. So everything, so that and I guess all that, but measured, right? There's a time and place for everything, and they knew how to act in each each situation. So from a source of, you know, motivation, whatever that needed to be, it was either they they they were just the I'm gonna say the uh it's the intelligence level that gets them to this point where they know when to mentor, they know when to coach, they know when to yell at you and motivate you that way, and recognize strength and weaknesses in themselves and the team. And yeah, it's just a it's just the next level of leadership that's very common sense and it never seen that anywhere else. And I've never seen it work collectively in in great numbers like that. And I I was perfect, I was, yeah, this is what everything really for me, everything that I was exposed to. It's like this is the way it should be. I knew there was a place that this is happening, and as hard as I tried to get in Ranger Battalion, Ranger Regiment, and I thought the same thing there at those levels when I'm going through rip rope and and there. It's like this is the way it should be. Very, but that was very like all hardcore charging kind of stuff. There it was more measured, I guess is a good best way I can describe that. Did you uh did you ever run across bad leadership there? No. Is that stuff just not tolerated? I don't know. I don't so I don't know, I don't know a circumstance where there was a bad leader. Because there's so much that's decided on whether you're gonna be a team leader, a troop leader, you know, all along the way. If you're gonna be leadership, bro, there's a lot of thought put into that. And is that a good old boy network inside the unit? No, it's it's it's really a common sense or yeah, common sense and measured approach. Because they'll tell they'll tell people too. I know this is what you want, but you're never gonna do that. You're awesome where you're at, you're gonna stay there. Get get comfortable with where you're at, right? Because they'll have that that's that's the that's the difference of like who's who's getting these positions and who's where. It's like you you're you're there's nobody, they don't hold anything back. You're either good enough or not. You want to do this? Well, and they'll ask you, you know, hey, what do you see yourself going next two years or so? And you you say that, and they're like, Okay, probably not, right? They'll have those conversations, or they'll say, Okay, we'll help you get there. This is what you need to do, and this is what I need to see from you to do that for me to for me to hack off on you to do that. This is what I need to see out of you. Very, very upfront, very honest. And that to me is like the leadership that I was like, I knew there was a place that this was happening, like no shit, if good or bad, you're told exactly how they think of you and how you're performing based off of what the overall mission is. And it could be it could be personal life too. They'll they do that too. Hey, get your shit together, or because we need you here. When you're here, you need to be here. Okay, I got it. And they don't do the stupid stuff, like, you know, there's some stuff in the army too. It's like, hey, if the army wanted you to be married, they would have issued you one, right? That kind of crap. There's none of that there. They're like, we get it. We're gonna give you time to to be with your families, but you're here. This is the mission. We need you here. As long as you guys get that squared away amongst yourselves, then okay, that's up to you guys.

Host 4:30:23

What did uh what did correction look like in the unit? I know AARs are brutal at JSOC. Does that breed you know, better operators when everybody, you know, because I I know in the ARs, man, I mean, you could be one of the newer guys, but if you see something that's it's highly valued that you speak up. Was that new to you or how how did how did you deal with that initially?

SPEAKER_00 4:30:45

Yeah, so AAR is not not new, but the honesty, yeah, the honest assessments of performance and things going on. Yeah, absolutely. That was totally new. Which, you know, you have the the placating and the pandering and in large organizations, even when they do that in organizations outside the unit. But there it was there was no holds barred. You performed or you didn't, and at what level you were told exactly how you performed, what your performance level, if you were okay, you're okay, kind of tone it down a little bit, or hey, you're here, I need you here. Straight up honesty, and and most of the guys too, even myself included, it's like, okay, yep, I own that. Uh my bad, square my shit away. Yes, and and but it's also like a it literally is a two-way thing, too. It's like, hey, where I and there's been situations where it's like, hey, you know, like, where the fuck were you? Yeah, hey, dude, where were where the fuck were you? And it's like, hey, I was doing this, that, and the other thing. And that's something they didn't see. So it's like, I didn't, I didn't know that. All right, good job then, because otherwise I was pissed, right? So there's honesty, upfront, self-analyzing too. And so if you do something, and that was the other thing too, guys. Own up to shit. Like if you screwed up, and they tell you that all the time, it's like own up to it, take, take ownership and don't do it again. Because otherwise, that's that's now more it's a character flaw or whatever you want to consider it. Yeah, you understand you screwed up, don't do it again. And or you can do things better. Understand, and so everybody's kind of more they could take it and they can receive it. Either way, that was that's I've never been anywhere since and never been anywhere before that. But so to that point too, though, when I was a squad leader, I was just young E6, I that's what I held my the standard to my guys. It's like I don't want any excuses. I'm just gonna tell you to do something and do it, and these are the standards, and I'm gonna tell you where you're at. And I was very was the very few guys that I knew, my my counterparts, the other squad leaders in that were actually having those kind of conversations with their guys. And I would say to those guys, collectively, you tell you know the squad what's the deal, but individually, you counsel these guys individually and tell them exactly how they're doing and how they how they're gonna correct it. And that that's exactly what happened there. Everybody, every time, didn't matter what it was, after actions were were brutal, right? Depending on what it is, how you want to look at this thing, but very honest about what needed to be done, uh, what was done and what needed to be done differently. If it was and if it was good, it was good.

Host 4:33:28

As much as you can talk about what was going on. I mean, you were in the unit for 10 years. What what are some of the things that that you were a part of? I mean, it's been a long time since you were in. I didn't do anything. This is like some funny part of the interview because when we were prepping this, you were like almost there for a whole bunch of things and like got pulled at the last minute. I know like I know your your squadron was on the hook for Mogadishu. You guys trained for it. Talk a little bit about that. Wasn't meant to be, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 4:33:58

Yes. So we were actually the first the first squadron to get called out for that that mission. This we're talking in 92 time frame ish. Totally different mission profile, mission, everything. Uh same mission, get get ID'd. Mission profile was totally different when it started out. And we're talking, we're talking a new administration too, with the Clinton administration, and this new thing. Now we'd been hearing about him and a bunch of other things going on all of our Intel briefs every week, every, you know, front end, back end of every week. And it's like, okay, I guess, okay, that we've been hearing about it, let's go get him. And it started out, we did all the rehearsals, we did the prep and all stuff. Delay, delay, delay. I'm okay. Let's go back and rehearse some more. And we're re-refining the mission profile that we were that we had in mind that we're gonna execute. And there were some things there. And it was the the criteria for a limited visibility thing was the the priority there. So as as fat as we wanted to get, because we're thinking, well, hey, let's so no ranger attachments, nothing, which which which we started saying, hey, maybe it would be let's get a platoon or something. Let's get a few more guys, see if we can expand the the the actual assault element. Because the support apparatus that was supporting that was huge. And we're like, well, let's let's let's get rid of some of those seats and we'll add some more like either squadron guys, other squadrons guys, or or get a platoon from the first ranger battalion. So we were talking about that, didn't happen yet. And so by the time we turned over the arm, we you know, change into a we get to a point where we're just changing mission cycle mission cycles. And so we come out of that mission and we go into training or something like that, and the squadrons take over, and eventually by the time it gets around to the guys that deployed, there's Rangers doing what they did, they did all the cordon stuff, which which freed up the unit guys to go on target and just focus on the target. So that's how it ended up being. But so in '92, I get there in '91. So all the things I'm hearing in the briefings are weapons of mass destruction. We're going to look for you know underground facilities in Iraq and all that stuff. There's still the no-fly zone in Iraq. And hostage rescues and other countries, embassies are still a thing. Uh, there's one taken in Peru, China's embassy in Peru. Oh man, Pablo Escobar was a thing. All these things are are hitting hitting the Intel updates. These are the things we're hearing about all the time. Normal terrorist activity, too. Normal terrorist activity, and we're talking the same guys that are around now, the Hezbollah's and the Hamas folks.

Host 4:36:53

Yeah, there's a couple. I mean, you had the the bombings in Tanzania and Nairobi, I don't remember what there are ones. Kenya, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 4:37:01

Yeah. So all throughout the 90s, all those things are going on. So in 93, too, there's the 93 World Trade Center bombing, right? So all those things are happening. Oklahoma City bombing, the two embassies in in Kenya. So oh man, there's so many things going on. Bosnia sparked it, it somehow weasels its way in there, and we end up focusing on that one. Man, there's so many things going on. That so we're we're talking, unfortunately, we're talking about things that are happening and there's no action being taken. And then 9-11, right? So what I know of the the 10 years before that, it's almost kind of where we're at right now. It's like we're we're our end of the the Biden administration, right? It's getting so bad. Like, how can you not see this coming? Right. And we're we're as you know, knuckle dragger shooters, you know, we're we're seeing things like, man, if only man, I hope this doesn't happen like this way. If they only knew this, then they could probably get away with that. I hope they don't know that, right? I mean, that was kind of just the the normal chick team room chatter.

Host 4:38:09

I mean, you guys are always on recall at some point if you guys are the ready squadron. So you can't constantly always spinning up training for you guys trying to get left of Bang, like trying to anticipate where you guys might go, type stuff, and then training for those environments. But I can I can't imagine that it always changing.

SPEAKER_00 4:38:24

Yeah, it was there was so it was so random. Yeah, it was so there was nothing like so. The big things, Africa was always a thing. There's always something going on in Africa and the Middle East and all that stuff. Israel and all they were still messing around over there. So it you know, Israel's dealing with so today the when they reference things, that's that's when all their terrorist attacks are happening in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and you know, restaurant bombings and all that stuff. That's when that's happening. And so we're those are the things globally and the geopolitical space that we're we're paying attention to. And man, there was so many things going on. And but every every day you showed up for work, you you knew you had a purpose, and this is what we're here for. And then your training week was just reflective of that. Did you guys travel a lot for training as well? Oh, yeah, yeah. Saw it out as much outside influence, uh, and from a CQB aspect too, it's like a different picture. I need a different floor plan. I don't want to know this floor plan. I know all the stuff we got, I know every inch of the stuff we have at our disposal here on our compound. Different floor plans, multiple floor plans, how do you use helicopters in different environments, urban, rural, all that stuff.

Host 4:39:42

Did you guys do a lot of ruts while you were there?

SPEAKER_00 4:39:44

What's a rut?

Host 4:39:45

Or you guys would go and train in like the rural urban train, like go to like Dallas or Miami or wherever.

SPEAKER_00 4:39:51

Yep. So a little collaboration with most of the major SWAT uh cities, most of the major city SWAT teams, and just to see how they were they they were they were doing business. It's like mixing and matching note notes on how how you do anything, right? How do you work on a helicopter? How do you do CQB? How do you shoot a gun and all the stuff? How do you guys train? What's your training mindset and all that stuff? Professional shooters too, the Rob Lathams and the Burner, Jerry Barnhart at the time. He was he was up and coming. Then we started with him. Oh man, all the good shooters at that time. The guy who's running uh the the Memphis camp out there, world-class shooter, all of them, and just just that. So we'd we'd we'd neck down to like a specific thing, like shooting. That's that's a that's it's an important aspect of being there, assigned there, but it's also one of many things that you have to be good at. And but so for those guys, it's like, yeah, let's go, let's go shoot with a professional shooter, see what he's doing. Let him tell us what we're doing, we need to do better and stuff like that.

Host 4:41:00

Did you guys cross-train a lot with uh either like the Rangers or Cell Team Six or any any other units within DOD?

SPEAKER_00 4:41:06

Not really cross-training. We we used to have exchanges with our counterparts in the Navy. We'd send a guy there for the summer, and whoever was in a like I don't know, I it's probably the training cycle, would go there for the summer and spend the summer with them just to see how they do things. And they'd come back and see what you know, give us a briefing on what what they did and how things are different, and they'd send two guys too. So we had that, and we've trained with we trained with all the world's CT hostage rescue forces.

Host 4:41:34

Did you ever get any time to did you ever get to spend any time at Virginia Beach?

SPEAKER_00 4:41:40

No.

Host 4:41:47

I'm assuming that was by choice, yeah. Based on your pause.

SPEAKER_00 4:41:52

So the the they didn't even want to be in Virginia Beach. The guys that we used to get loved the tribe and at Fort Bragg and all that stuff. Yeah, I never had a I never really felt the need to do that. There were some guys who was like, yeah, let me go see what they're doing. I'm I'm interested in what other people are doing. And for whatever reason, there was enough there for me to do to keep busy. And I didn't see how that was gonna be of value. Might have been. I don't know. I never did it. But we were I was so busy just doing stuff for our our stuff. And yeah, I didn't I I saw that as everybody saw that as a vacation or something like that, which it wasn't. It was just as hard training time frame that they had, but it was focused on their mission, so that's kind of my thing. I was like, well, I need to focus on this because we just got an intel dump on all this.

Host 4:42:40

What is the difference in the mission between the two tier one units? Used to be very different, yeah. I mean, I would assume they were more maritime and we're more yeah, yeah, we I say we, but the army is more hosses rescue focused. But they like to pride themselves that they're they're the same. Is that your experience? Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:42:58

I think everybody's gone back to their own like playgrounds from what I've heard, even in SF groups. They've gone back to their more traditional SF missions. Yeah, so we it used to be very defined space, like cruise ships, coastal waters, you know, open water stuff within whatever it was. I don't remember within a mile of the coastline, it's all theirs, right? And everything inland is us. We're the brown water guys, and they're the open water guys. And so they did a lot of oil rigs, cruise liners, all that stuff, because that's what was happening in the Met at the time. They're hijacking cruise liners and taking hostages on cruise liners. So they did that, and we'd be all inland stuff, whatever, you know, embassies or whatever, all inland water stuff. Any any water stuff we did was all brownwater stuff. It's lakes, rivers, and stuff like that. And we'll stay out of the ocean because that's that belongs to the Navy. If you were doing that, it was a cross-training thing, and you just had an opportunity to go join them on a mission or something like that. But that that was it. A lot of the snipers used to exchange a lot, and that was uh in between the snipers and in the navy and our guys. They're just hey, let me see how you're doing. So there is a different environmental consideration when you're talking that sniping and effects on ballistics and all that stuff, saltwater environments, open open sea environments, vice on the ground. So that was that was a valued thing that uh we had a couple guys with us when I was on a sniper team traveling with us just to try to get more more data, more dope, right? For uh inland water stuff, inland waters and in inland stuff, like inland and like the US?

Host 4:44:41

Yeah. So I I thought, well, and I think a lot of people I thought FBI HRT handles a lot of the inland stuff. Is there a cross collaboration?

SPEAKER_00 4:44:50

They do in the states. So in the states, that's all them. We we us our our navy, any dod can't operate in in the states. The guard has a separate thing, that's a totally separate thing they have, but active duty can't can't operate within this the states. The at the end of the Biden administration. I was gonna say they just signed something right before Trump got in office. Yeah, and what that was for, yeah, that that so we that's like uh somebody needs to check into that. What was the intent of that letter, right? And it was from DOD going out to you can it was human or uh intel or something like that, focus, if I remember correctly. It was like we can conduct intelligence within the borders of the United States, something like that. And so you can use forces, that's how it was interpreted. You can use US forces in in the states. So interesting when that came out, why it came out, and what was the intent.

Host 4:45:43

Yeah, for those of us that are listening that may not understand, so there is specific federal laws requiring, you know, where U.S. military forces can operate when there's like Title 10, Title 50. And so, you know, for the most part, without presidential approval, the US Army cannot target, collect on US persons or operate within U.S. borders. But and that's mainly the FBI. But I, you know, there was, I have to look into the federal, but there was a federal law that was signed during the Biden administration authorizing the U.S. military to be used inside of the United States, which is very controversial when you start thinking about why and and how, and especially since we have so many different federal law enforcement agencies to include the FBI, you know, the entire Department of Justice. So you got U.S. Marshals, ATF, DEA, and then you got, you know, the entire Homeland Security, which is you know, U.S.

SPEAKER_00 4:46:34

And there's already the Patriot Act, too, which allows that. So that again, in my mind, when I heard saw that coming out, I was like, Well, what was the intent behind that? I guess we'll never know, but yeah, was there's that's a shady one in my mind. That's a that's something that needs to be looked into. But why why was that even the need for that?

Host 4:46:52

Wow. Well, I mean, uh you can't help but wonder, man. I mean, with as many people as the Biden administration let into this country, and again, I I worked on the border in another previous career, and you know, there's this idea that there's a bunch of you know Mexicans coming into the US, but the reality is I think Mexicans, a lot of them are leaving the U.S. And there's everybody from every other country, most of which, or a lot of which are not friendly to the United States, were pouring into this country. And I know because I worked on the border and I worked with Board of Patrol and Homeland Security alongside of those, and the stuff that we were hearing was, I mean, wild. Iranians, Saudis, Algerians, Moroccans, Syrians, you know, Afghans, you know, all the people that that don't like us that were that have been pouring into this country for years. China had some folks crossing. Yeah, yeah. And you know, we killed, I say this a lot, and you know, we killed a lot of the dumb ones during the GWAT. I mean, I I remember specifically a friend of mine who was working the FBI's high value interrogation team. You know, so they would basically travel all around the world and interrogate terrorists and you know, they do stuff in the States as well. And he was like, Yeah, there's a lot of them here, and there's a lot of them we have no idea where they're at. And I remember, you know, it goes to the conversation you and I were having last night of why I don't Go to football games and large concerts because you just don't know nowadays. There's a lot of people that don't like us that are here in this country. You know, they just thwarted a plot. And I know we're gonna dive back this towards the a little bit later in the interview, but you know, where they just rolled up some Afghans, the, you know, the Afghan shooter who shot the two National Guard in DC, and then they just thwarted a plot in Dallas of another Afghan refugee, you know, planting bombs. And so, you know, to your point, it's been quiet here in the States for a long time, you know, maybe too long, and and you know, there's a lot of adversaries that still have a grudge against us, and I know we're gonna cover it, especially the Iranian piece uh when we get to Benghazi. I kind of just want to wrap up your unit time a little bit before we move on to the next thing. Was there ever, I have a couple more questions. Was there ever any ranger infantry leadership things that you had that you had to unlearn when you got to the unit? Like, you know, anything that you kind of took with you that maybe either didn't apply or you're like, oh man, that doesn't apply over here. I need to change this thought process or any of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:49:04

Yeah, I guess I'm less a less authoritative leadership styles. That was not the place to do that. So yeah, you just loosen it up. I'm more of a coach mentor mentality. And you know, there's there's no so the infantry also the basic follow me thing. Yeah, follow me, but you know, everybody's got and you're constantly training your your team and and stuff to to do everything, even with so that's a that's an army or US thing too. Supposed to train your subordinates to take your job so you you can do your job without you in case you're not there, kind of thing. I mean you're always training up your junior leaders to take your job and all that kind of stuff. There, a lot of us were already in leadership positions, like myself, and so at some work, somewhere like like the SF babies who showed up, never were in a leadership position. They're they're learning also now how to be a leader, also. But at the unit, they they have plenty of time, 10, 10, 12 years in the army, but never in a leadership position. That can happen. It has happened, and they're learning how the the unit is how to be a leader, how to be a leader of leaders. That was that was an interesting thing when I realized that was what was happening. It's like all these guys already know what what it needs, what what it takes to be a leader and how to lead troops, maybe, or how to be a team leader in an SF team or something like that, wherever they're coming from. But now it's like, okay, you're not the only one that knows everything now. Everybody you're leading a team of you know very accomplished high-pitten leaders, right? And so it takes on that takes on even another level of leadership. You could talk to people differently with that kind of uh uh staff, a team. A little bit more maturely, a lot, a lot less detail, but because that's already that's already expected, you know, of of your anybody's performance. So you you don't have to get in in the minutiae of things. Yeah, it's it's a very adult, very adult place to be. Both lead being being a leader and and then leading. Or, you know, what what did they say? A good leader was always a good follower, kind of thing. That's exactly if you were a leader before and you got there and you're not anymore, it all right. No big deal.

Host 4:51:29

Yeah, I would imagine there's not a lot of place for, I mean, I'm sure there's ego in in the unit, but yeah, it's not a lot of place for you know that stuff to spiral out of control because that can be toxic and especially for small unit cohesion, but also for the mission set that you guys are doing. What were you know, one of my biggest curiosities are is what was the officers like? Because you know, in the unit, the enlisted guys, that you you have longevity there, but officers, man, I mean, they they've got a they've got a clock. So did you see a lot of turnover for the officer corps that was in there? No. Really?

SPEAKER_00 4:52:01

So so during my time there too, yeah, which is the other unique thing about that place. And I haven't had those conversations where once you make it to the unit, you try to to develop your leadership within because they know the process, they know the system, and stuff like that. That to me, that was always just a natural order of how business was done. But at the time too, like, so I made it to I made it to eight. That was probably the most I can expect to do, unless I left to do regular army stuff. Because it's just like any pyramid in any organization, there's only so many slots at the top, and then you're just either waiting for that slot or and you're okay with with where you're at, or you leave and go do your time in the regular army or SF or wherever you're coming from, and then come back. Because you just have to do those things in in the army, right? For promotions. So that was a very common thing for everybody to be in the enlisted side, like E8s, forever. It's like this is you're not gonna get your your nine ever because you're not gonna if you're not gonna be in a leadership position. Then it becomes a especially if if you were infantry and that's your MOS and you're at the unit, or you're SF and that's your MOS at your totally different because you're competing with your other SF counterparts if you're if you have a 18 series MOS, or you're competing with the rest of the grunts, if you're an infantry guy. I did everything there was to do as a grunt as far as my my NCO education, and there was nothing I can do left, and I'm just gonna write it out. I guess I guess at the time I was E7. It's like, well, I guess I'm gonna be E7 until I retire, right? Which I was, but I so I go to Q Horse, and I'm not doing it to get promoted, I'm doing it to just one, take a break at the time I I went to the the course.

Host 4:53:50

Yeah, we didn't really cover that. I mean, you you lost your sister while you're in the unit, and I know it it really I know you were devastated by that.

SPEAKER_00 4:53:57

Yep, and that's that's one of the reasons I had to take a break. And how long should you how long should you take a break, right? If you if you lose somebody, that's like kind of enumerated, right? You just who knows. And so they said, yes, we'll give you a break.

Host 4:54:14

We'll we'll how do you go to the Q course? That's how you take a break when you're in Delta Force, you go to a the special forces qualification course because that's pretty hard for the rest of DOD, but not if you're coming from the unit, that's where you go to get a break.

SPEAKER_00 4:54:26

Yeah, and uh that was I honestly thought that was gonna be uh you know a good time to start getting my head back in the right sp headspace I needed to be at. And I actually had to what generated that the that also the break was you know you can go to other other sections too and in the unit, say in the building, but just do other jobs, not non-operational stuff. And I was like, yeah, that's that's not gonna do it for me either. I'm not I'm not I'm not real, my head's not in the right place and to do all this stuff. And I had to I turned down a couple of missions too. Those that that was the other thing about uh I turned down two missions and honest assessment with myself, am I 100% here in this game right now? And I wasn't, and I I just told my leadership that I was like, you know what? I don't know if I should apologize right now, but I am not in the right head headspace right now. I can't, I'm I'm not I'm I don't feel I'm focused enough to do this this mission. And no questions asked. Were they real world missions? Yeah, and it was no questions asked, and I didn't even think, oh finally my opportunity, right? And I wasn't thinking either that, oh, this is so dangerous, I want to bail out of this one. It was honestly, I was like, I'm just not I'm not motivated. I can't get into the I'm not here. I'm not here, I can't do this. I'm gonna risk my life and the life of the guys with me. And they got it. They're like, okay, well, we're gonna it sounds like it's time to take a break. That what that was it. And think about it. What schools do you want to go to? I don't know, what training can you possibly plug in here to like like literally go to like an outdoor train training camp, go camping or whatever it was. They're like, don't do anything like crazy stuff anymore, just think about it and come back. And I was like, Well, I never got a shot at the Q course. How about the Q course? That gives me like, I don't know how long that was. That's a long time to take out. And they said they gave me, I think it was a six-month window. Think about something you want to do for the next six months, not related to operational stuff. That was one of them, took up most of that time. And since I was going to the what what I I can't remember if it was a comma course or the medic course, I was after selection, Cephas, they were saying, Okay, you're selected, you're going to the Delta course or the Echo course. I don't remember which one it was. But I was like, okay, so that that's where I was headed. That's what I was gonna do. They already proved me to do that, so that's what I'm going. But those courses are the longest of all the courses, and they said, Yeah, we're gonna give you a break, we're not gonna give you yeah, don't push it, bro. You got six months, buddy. And yeah, ended up going to the Q course. Love to have a bit of a Charlie course, no, so I was thinking about that, but really in the Charlie course, they weren't gonna teach me anything I didn't already know from my engineer days, so I went to the Bravo course, which was the shortest, I think. So it met all that that criteria. It's like, well, okay, it's gonna fit within my six-month window, and it's a Bravo course. I like guns, so that'd be cool. How was the Q course for you? Oh, that's great, I loved it. I totally recommend that. If you're into the guns and into that mission, you know, sometimes it's not so dynamic, but like fid, right? That's kind of exciting, but some guys wouldn't wouldn't fit well. Well, I know a lot of the guys that were that came in during the GWAT era time frame into SF, and they were pretty much, you know, direct action and stuff like that. Lot some fid and then they're rolling on targets with their guys and all that stuff. It's now it's probably not not so dynamic. And a lot of guys that were in got out because of that. They were just used to a certain way of of their daily lives, and it wasn't that anymore.

Host 4:58:29

How did you reconcile family life with the need for you know what we were doing at the unit? I would imagine, like, how does the unit treat the family? Is it they get treated well?

SPEAKER_00 4:58:41

So yeah, it it and then uh in our in brief too, they were we're told that. And they're told that your families are there, and they're saying, Your husband went to selection to do work for us. They he and he needs to be here a lot, and he's gonna be gone a lot, and all this other stuff. And we don't owe you nothing, but if it doesn't work out, just raise your hand and no questions asked, you guys can go on your own way. And so even then, honest assessment, honest AARs, and honest discussions with family members, even you your husband's gonna do gr good things, great things, just national attention kind of stuff, and make no doubt the importance of what your husband's getting ready to do, kind of conversations, and but he's gonna put in a lot of time for us. He's not gonna be here training, even training. So families don't care either. If you're gone, you're gone. Doesn't matter if it's training or missions or whatever. Yeah, they don't know the difference. Yep.

Host 4:59:45

Do you have a pretty good family support group?

SPEAKER_00 4:59:47

Oh, yeah, yeah. Super cool. I think so. So there's a family support group, that's a thing in the in the army that I know of. And but usually it's it's it's it's very all the all the wives wear their husbands' rank, and usually if they're a senior officer, then they're in charge of the support group stuff kind of stuff. So it takes on another, it's it's a whole nother level there too, with even this family support group. But you don't have to wait, you don't have to go to Gen Pop at the hospital for for checkups and stuff like that. We our own docs that actually work at the hospital, come to the front of the line, right? You get you get you get the the family, the the unit family door, come through this door, no waiting, right? So those kind of things, absolutely, uh all kinds of stuff. You get priority, priority everywhere else. And so for the wives that understand that, it's like, wow, this is this is kind of cool. Yeah, get to the front of the line if I go to the pharmacy or whatever, or even just help. You can you, you know, they were just call somebody if you need anything, you know, don't be afraid. And and everybody that was married when they got there, they they were dealing with family support groups in the army, too. They're like, oh shit, I'm not gonna deal with that. I don't want that drama. But from what I understand, that's not what happened there. Yeah, they can call each other, have great, like literally support groups, they're supportive, actually. Doesn't matter their rank, just like us on the team, don't matter your rank. You just got a job to do, just do your job. Yeah, my kids loved it. And then as much as they can they can like interact with you, so we had family days and all that stuff, and and pretty cool stuff on our family days that the kids were able to do, shoot guns and you know, and all that kind of stuff, jump towers. Yeah, it was it was fun. My kids had a blast doing all that stuff. That's awesome.

Host 5:01:40

What I don't know that you ever really answered my question, but how how how were the officers in the unit?

SPEAKER_00 5:01:47

Next level, everything like everything else. Very so there wasn't a like I'll still I still address most of the officers that I at the unit and I still interact with some of them. It's always like, hey boss, you know, I'm not and it was a a no salute area that didn't need to be identified, right? It didn't need you don't have to have there was some at the front gate because of visitors and stuff like that, where you see the actual sign that says this is a no-sleute area. But for us, they were they were just like the rest of the guys. They they knew their place just like us, and we have that relationship. Like, this is what officers do, okay. Duh. And this is what you guys do. All right, yeah. What what's the question?

Host 5:02:29

Did they but did they stick around the squadron for a while? Because most most officers, you know, you got your command time, what, 18 months, you know, give or take, and then they're on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:02:38

So they still have to manage that. But so back then, too. So, like for me, uh the best I can ever hope to achieve was an E8. The best they can hope to ever achieve was a lieutenant colonel, and that's it. No stars. You got to that point, done. Yeah, because unit commanders are no six. Yeah, so it was like that that was the the most you can ever, and everybody's okay with that. It's like, okay, well, I'm where I want to be.

Host 5:03:01

So that's not why they that's I I mean, assuming that's not why they they don't you don't come there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:03:05

And uh the the most the most interaction you can have with an officer, because usually your your your your place is over there and their place is over here, right? And you you interact when you have to. They're I mean, um I I consider the the guys that I still talk to that are were now they're I don't know how many stars they end up having, but they're like four stars and all that stuff. I talk to them all the time, like first name basis with these guys. We like could be, right? I can refer to them by their first names, but when I talk to them, it's like hey boss, how's it going? Right, and they they get it too. I've I've called them that since I've known them. And it's it's always that. I still have a respect for them too, and as an officer and all those kind of things, all the guys do. So we still have to show the respect of the rank and their positions, but they they're so it's it's different because they're it if you go to the regular army, they they expect it, demand it, require it. These guys don't ask for any of that stuff. If you call them by their name, great. If you call them by the rank, great. They don't say, you know, anything, anything different. Um, but the the interaction is totally different. It's more of a like literally a team environment. So it's like, hey boss, we need to, we need to, this is what we need to put together, and then you process this thing up the chain of command your way, the way you gotta do it, and we'll get ready and we'll do our thing. So uh very and they stay there as long as they can. Or they or they move through the the as as much as they can because it's an it's another headspace thing through the other commands, JSOC and SOCOM. So, and if they have an opportunity to come back, then I don't know, I'm sure that's had to have happened where they're leaving to do a JSOC or SOCOM thing, uh staff job, and then come back. I'm sure that's happened. I don't know specifically where that's happened, but usually they're on the rocket ship going up. Now, GWAT, all the all the guys that would have probably been no more than colonels at the time or four-star generals and stuff like that when they retire. All the guys, all my guys that I know that I even came in at the same time with, and they're all served majors, they're all e9s. I made eight, retired eight months before I was timing grade to to retire as an eight. So I retired as a seven. And I was I I was that was kind of vindictive of me to do that because I had an ex-wife who's gonna assume some of my retirement pay. Got him. And I don't, and but I don't there was really no difference if I retired as a seven or eight on benefits and stuff like that. No, it's starting major, different thing. So everybody's thinking, okay, what do I get as a start major? You get a full case on at your funeral. For me, I get the I get the graveside dudes with the buglers and the. I was like, okay, I don't care. I'm gonna be dead at that point anyway. Uh exactly. I was like, I'm good. I'm good with whatever I get when I'm dead. Uh, I don't care.

Host 5:05:58

That's my benefits. Okay, good. There's a lot of other things we we could talk about, but I'm I'm gonna move on because there's there's a lot more left in your career. But what was what was the deciding factor other than your divorce to kind of retire? I mean, you had kind of peaked, you chased this thing, you found it. I know, I mean, we didn't talk about all the operational stuff you did in in in the unit. I know you're in Bosnia and plus all the training and all you know the almost uh deployments and you know everything else you did in your career. But what was what was that decision point where like, man, I'm I'm on to the next thing?

SPEAKER_00 5:06:32

Yeah, so the the it was a problematic divorce. So that was just they usually are it was just a pain in my ass. Some of the things that she was saying, and probably would deny it to this day, but some of the things that she was doing, very, you know, whatever. I was dealing with it. The unit was talking to me all the time about things that she was saying. I was like, okay, it's not true. You know, all these all these things that were it was it was messy. So that was one of the things. It's like, okay, this is just uncomfortable. This is just I got okay, again, I gotta deal with this, and it was just not going away. Then I so that was a thing. Then I then all things that are constantly gone and all this other stuff. So there was other things about getting an education in the army too. So that's becoming more of a priority now, too, in promotions. It's like, okay, you guys are doing all this stuff, and you can't get credit. So the here's the dyno the the the weird thing about how the army looks at you, if you're at the unit, you're you're you're probably doing like some pretty cool shit. Like outside of the box, like way beyond, above and beyond your all the what you're supposed to do, especially if you're an infantry guy. But what the branches look at, how they interpret that is well, you're not doing grunt work, so you these guys are these guys are gonna jump ahead of you in line for promotions because you're fucking off over here and just doing cool shit, but what does that have to do with infantry stuff? It's like yeah, we're doing like next level infantry stuff and everything else, right? But that's not how the the sergeant majors that are on these boards just looking at records, that's not how they see that. They're like, okay, what the 11 problem infantry, infantry, infantry, and then it's like, well, what's this? What's what's going on here? Why is this he's he's not doing his job? You get in that file. But there are people there representing us though that say, Well, yes, he is doing a lot more than your guys over here, so put him back in this file. So there are people doing that. SF the same way, and some of that in both cases, whether it's infantry branch or SF, heard the same stories about, you know, a little like animosity in those boards. It's like, well, he thinks he's better than the rest of us, he's going over here, right? And I've heard that happening on the infantry side of the house. And but the way it's structured and the way the the the positions are on the unit, SF can kind of correlate what they're doing to equating it to regular SF stuff. It's like, okay, so okay, I can equate that to Sergeant Major Time as a whatever troop squadron, whatever it is. And okay, that that counts. That's all this counts towards promotions. They're better at, I guess, deciphering that kind of information for promotion. So you can still get promoted when you're at the unit if you're 18 series guy, but not so much as an 11 Bravo or even some of the other MOSSs that that aren't hard school MOSs, because there's guys there too. There's yeah, crew she crew chiefs, helicopter crew chiefs that are there that are in operational squadrons. And so that it's a little bit more difficult for that group of folks to say, Oh, how's that how's that crew chief stuff, right? That's the nothing happened.

Host 5:09:50

Yeah, that's a lot of people don't understand about Delta. You don't have to be an infantry dude to go to Delta, you can be from any MOS in the Army.

SPEAKER_00 5:09:55

Yeah, yeah.

Host 5:09:56

But I would imagine like as they start climbing up the ranks, it becomes a pain to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 5:10:00

Yeah, and at the time too, it's always been open, open enrollment. It's always been available for everybody. DOD, but like the Navy, the Marine Corps, uh Air Force, all those guys were never they would have to be released from their unit to go do something. So that's that's a numbers loss for them. So that wasn't happening a lot. So what ended up happening for those guys who wanted to come to the unit, they ETS'd out of their branch wherever they were coming from, re-enlisted back into the army as SF, and then applied at one point to go to selection. So that's what they had to do at the time.

Host 5:10:34

Now it's so did you run across a lot of people in the unit that come from other DODs, like Navy, Air Force, Marines? Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:10:41

Yeah, Marines and Air Force. So they were so the Air Force guys I know, they were either PJs or combat controllers or something like that in the Air Force. And they had some interaction with the unit and they asked to go to the unit because they could. It's open, it's available, and they were denied because that's what happens when you want to leave an organization. And so they ended that enlistment and enlisted in the army. Went SF or something. I think they all had to go SF or that made sense to them.

Host 5:11:12

So I mean, I think you kind of talked around it, but I mean, other you had the divorce, you I know you tried to go to college a couple times during like you would start college and then you would either have to get called out or a train rotation and you wouldn't be able to go. So, you know, from and from talking in our when we were prepping for this podcast, is you know, I was kind of a big deciding factor. You had the kind of divorce hanging over your head. You and I know like you had been trying to go to college. And I one of the things that you and I talked about that I thought was interesting too is like you had kind of done a bunch of training missions and then you'd gone to Bosnia, and you got to the point you were just like, How much more of this can I can I do? Right? Like, yeah, was that kind of a big part of your decision process?

SPEAKER_00 5:11:48

Yeah, I'm already peaked. What else is gonna happen, right? What what else is there? So I got to that point, and then it got so for me, it's like, okay, that's that's a dangerous place to be at this place. So I guess this is what it what it's like.

Host 5:11:59

Would you say you were burned out?

SPEAKER_00 5:12:01

Yeah, yeah. It's like so, and that's what I said to myself. I was like, well, I guess this is what it's like when because everybody says that when they retire. It's like, oh, you'll just know. It's like, okay. And then at one point, I was like, well, I guess I'm at that point. Well, because what else is gonna happen? We're gonna keep doing the same thing. Kill capture missions, hostage rescue, you know, and constantly moving and running around. Recently divorced. I want I keep having to cancel courses, I can't get my degree, so whatever. I was like, I guess it's time to I guess it's time to narrow down my focus on something. So narrowed down on a relationship I was on in at the time, and then my education. I was like, so that's where I'm headed, and it's time to retire. And yeah, that was all part of it.

Host 5:12:49

You retired in July of 2001. Yeah. It's actually funny because you know, I I I asked for everybody's DD214 into the military that comes on the podcast. It's only like one of the few things I can do to try to verify stuff. Not that I think anybody's lying, but you know, there's a person out there whose name I won't say on here wrote a book, you know, maybe fabricated some things, which is, you know, happens more often than we like to talk about. So it's kind of funny because you know, Delta Force is this big secret unit. And of course, I get your DD214, which is open to anybody. It's actually open public records. Like it says Delta Force on here. So it's one of the worst kept secrets in the US Army's repertoire. So you get out and you decide to go to school. But before we dive into your next thing, we'll talk about, you know, we're gonna talk about you going into GRS and and you know your transition 9-11 and all that. Let's just take a quick break. Okay. So you're transitioning out of the unit and it's July 2001, and you just you're going to college in Maryland. What's what's that like? I mean, you're basically on the party bus, the party bus stops, and you get off, and now you're back to Joe the Civilian.

SPEAKER_00 5:13:54

Yeah. I was I was a pretty motivated to do that actually. So they I go, so I'm also checking out interviews with the Department of State, Secret Service, and there was one guy at in the HRT breaching program I was gonna go talk to. And so I was I was I was kind of excited to do that. I got a place to go. I'm gonna kind of still be in the mix of things. And the the outlier was I didn't know how those all those organizations were gonna be towards, and I want to go to school full-time. How does that work, right? So I I put that in my on my interview questions when I got the interview, and I got the interviews, and that was that's what I was doing week before the plane fell out sky. So I went to all these job interviews. So we have also have a new secretary of state. So pal, Bush is new also. We got a new president, we got a new sex date. And so when I go to the interviews, they were thinking, like, what do you after their questions? They're asking me, so what do you what do you want? What what do you want of us? And I was like, Well, I really want to finish school, and I really am motivated to finish school right now, and but this is one of the reasons why I'm here. I already have enrolled in university, we're University of Maryland, and but how can I fit that into this job? And they they're like, Oh, all every single one of them. I didn't I didn't go to the HRT reaching contact, so I went to State Department first and they said, Well, we got a new sex staff. We don't know how busy of a travel schedule he's gonna have yet, because we don't want to know his his deal yet, how he's gonna do that. It's all new to us, so yeah, we could we'll blitch on the stateside details. You'll be his stateside driver. And I was like, Oh shit, okay, cool. Whatever that meant, right? I don't care. I just want to focus on school, have a job, have some another income, and and not not have to deploy, because I said that too, because I know that all these people are on travel teams, and I said, Well, that's kind of what despite meaning they asked to go to school now, that's why I'm here. I don't want to do that, so I don't want to be on a travel team. I don't want you you can't throw any scratching penny at me and say you're gonna do cool stuff because I've already done it. So I just want to be here, work for you guys, however that works in for you guys, and I go to school. And both of them, both the uniform division at the Secret Service and the State Department, they they both said the same, uh cool. Well, okay, yeah, absolutely. We'll put you in this whatever category, we'll let you do this. This will be your job, and then you can go to school. And when you finish school, we'll we'll relook your career path at that point. I was like, perfect. So I lined up those two, and then as soon as that was done, me and my girlfriend at the time, we're gonna take a cross-country trip, do some retirement, enjoy retirement. Well, I got it because I got to come back. And that January was get back to work, full-time job, school, I'm gonna be hitting it. And so we're gonna just go screw off, take a long-distance trip all the way across the country, visit her folks, visit my folks, and then just see the United States and all that stuff and road trip it. And we get as far as she was from Texas, so we get that far, and we're there the second or third day. Actually, we get in a car accident too. So the truck, my truck at the time, gets destroyed, the whole front quarter panel. So it's gonna extend our stay in Texas for a little bit. So we're dealing with that. We're like, okay, now we're getting all these kinks in our plans and all this other stuff, and get get my truck in the shop and all that other stuff, and we're we're at her mom's place, and that next morning is when it all happens, and her mom is the one very German, she's German, very German accent, sharp German accent. So she's yelling whatever time it was in the morning, and she's beating on the bedroom door. It's like, Come come, come, come look, come look. Bob, Bob, come look. And I was like, okay. It's like, oh my god, what's we were up late, you know, drinking because that's what we're gonna do on our vacation. And you know, get up, go look at the TV. She's like, look, look, and I'm looking at the TV, it's like first, first pint hit the trade centers. I was like, holy shit, what how in the hell does that happen, right? And second one goes in, I was like, oh shit, that was an this is an attack. And then then the Pentagon, Pennsylvania, all the reporting that day, that morning, it's like, holy crap, this is it. Like there's no way this is not gonna be end up in some sort of war. But where, when, who knows? How long is it gonna take to do that? So I'm thinking, okay, well, that later that day I call a bunch of buddies back at Bragg, and it's it's new, it's that day that it happens, and so nothing's going on yet. They're probably getting briefed, and and so the guys that I'm calling at the unit, they're still there. They're like, oh, you know, bro, it's the same shit. We're getting called out, we're not gonna go do nothing, you know, all that stuff. Then and then then okay, hey man, give me a call if if it turns into something, because absolutely I'll come back if you guys want me to do that. I don't know what it what I you had to go through some mini, I don't know, physical fitness. There's some things you had to do. I don't know. I said, let me know what I need to do when I come back. If I come back and you guys need me, then give me a call. And then at one point, I'm just getting busy with my life, and it's and it's like, hey, we gotta we gotta go back to DC because what's going on there? I'm either got escalated through the hiring process and I'm gonna do something, or what? But I don't know until I'm back there. So we go back to DC, and then they're telling me, well, because of the recent events, we're everybody's at a hiring freeze, we're not hiring new people right now. So that was kind of you know, another thing, right? It's like, man, I got so close. And then I guess that's not so I ended up a t-shirt, bro. I came so close. Yeah, and then I ended up working for a company that was so what had happened at the White House, they started moving people, offices of the White House out to outside of the White House into all the outlier buildings in DC and Virginia and Maryland. So I ended up working for so it's that's expanding. They're not hiring like agents, but they're hiring the contractors, they're contracting people to take all these other like buildings for security. So armed security. So I was a program manager, that's what I ended up. I ended up being a program manager at a security company who was at one of the offices of the White House that had moved to another facility. And that's where I stayed. I was like, okay, this is this is fine. I'm getting okay, it's not as much as I thought it was, but it's like GS7 stuff, right? And I still get to go to school, so okay, I'm good with this. And that's what I did for well the whole time, the first couple years. The two years I was able to manage to stay in school. That's where I was working. And I c well, so I I don't know what September, October, November, what time I call back, I'm keeping tough, hey, hey, you guys doing anything? And and at one point, no, no answers, right? No callbacks. I was like, oh, what the hell's going on, right? And maybe they're doing something, maybe they're not. I don't know. Maybe it's just a deployment because you you can't, you know, you can't have that kind of conversation even if you're just doing a training mission and you're in isolation or something, right? So I'm thinking, okay, I guess nothing's going on. And then then I start hearing all the other stuff that's happening. I was like, what the hell? And now I know why they can't call me because they're on a ship somewhere going in and out of Afghanistan and infilling all these places and doing all this good stuff.

Host 5:21:37

And what was that like in your head, man? Like you spent 10 years over there waiting to do the shit that now that they're all doing.

SPEAKER_00 5:21:46

Well, I I did I still didn't know what what they were doing because it's not televised, it wasn't being reported. I wasn't able to talk to anybody. I just know they're doing something. I don't know other than what's being reported, right? The when they started doing stuff, really it wasn't like all the initial stuff, like all the guys up north, the fifth group team that comes across the border, and all this that doesn't hit the news right away. That's like later on. Same thing with Torabora. You don't hear all the that you hear the finally the they're dropping bombs in the Torabora mountains. I'm not I was like, oh, who's who's doing that? I know somebody's on the ground controlling that stuff, but I don't know if it's it's our guys. I was like, well, who's doing that? Or they're just randomly picking, you know, select targets on the ground and just dropping bombs. But coming to find out, this is the unit guys just running around the mountains, yeah, chasing bin Laden. Yeah, so I'm still kind of in the dark, and I'm not talking to anybody, nobody's calling me, so he's like, okay, well, apparently they don't need more people. And so off to school I go, go back to work, and I just kept that so for the next two years. Finally get back a year and a half later, so they canceled uh for uh the next unit function, unit anniversary. Every year you have a gathering, and they canceled the first one, and then the second one they ran was like in 2003 or something like that, a couple years into it. So Iraq is now part of the equation now. Afghanistan's already done started underway. I they're we're on Iraq now, and then that's when I even get involved with the whole triple canopy thing. So I go back to the unit with the kind of the intent to say, hey, you you you still need you still need people put me in, coach, right? And but other guys are there the issue they're having at the unit at the time is so one of the guys I talked to at the unit, he's one of the founders or two of the founders of Triple Canopy that was there at this thing too, because they're trying to recruit guys to go to triple canopy. And that's when I even heard about that. And well, so I said, Well, you got enough guys here, you got enough guys at the unit, and you guys are are getting into it, so okay, I I can contribute that way. And that's when I got into the whole triple canopy thing. I didn't I didn't actually feel I was missing out on things, I probably did. I was having an issue too during those two years transitioning to civilian life.

Host 5:24:15

So Yeah, well, how was that training?

SPEAKER_00 5:24:18

Super fast train, and then I jump off and college life and regular eight-hour, nine to five jobs and stuff like that. That was the the total shift in environments for me on all aspects. I wasn't having a easy time dealing with it all. So the University of Maryland, grade school, and I had gone through the University of Maryland uh while I was active duty. It used to be University of Maryland University College, now it's something else. Uh I was I was taking courses through through them uh while I was active duty, and so I figured that was a natural progression, just laterally transfer, I don't know, what whatever that was called, over to full-time university. And then there was things there that were happening that I just wasn't it didn't equate in my head that I should be seeing this stuff. So there were protests on on the University of Maryland, they weren't there and they were always designated areas. So at the time it was uh Palestinian protests, I guess. They were, you know, there they had a little courtyard that they were allowed to put up all their posters and all that stuff. And I was just walking from the to my classroom, so from the parking lot to the classroom across campus, and I crossed this courtyard and I was like, Oh, what is this? And I started reading some of the stuff, and it's like, are you kidding me right now? It's like how is how are you able to do this? And they were all students, and some uh adults, I don't know if they were part of the like professors or something, but uh there were some adults there, but most of them look student age, and I was an adult-looking person too, so I was 38, 39 at the time, and so all the students there were you know normal college age, and Palestinian, this, that, and the other thing, and Israel and uh anti-Israel, and it just hit me wrong. And I was like, what is going on? And why how are they allowed to do this? I get it, free speech and all that stuff, but why are you here doing this? Right? Yeah, no business to be here doing this, and very, very offended by all the stuff that I was seeing like that. And I made it, made my opinion known, got you know, right writing to the college administrators and all that stuff. It's like, how is it what what's going on here? Is there is there somebody telling them the real story and what's happening all there? Because they're not kids that came from from Israel and they're they've never been there and they just hear what they hear. And I asked them some some of them I asked, I stopped, and I'm looking at their stuff and I'm reading things, and I was like, So have you ever been there? And they're like, Well, no, but this is what I hear. It's like who who where are you hearing that? And so I did ask some of those questions of the people at this thing, and they weren't none of them had been anywhere outside of their little like Maryland. So that some of the things that were happening in some of the classes, have so having to write in so I know now I'm I'm more adult about seeing the concept of like, and everybody has this story. It's like I'm gonna write this paper. This is what I have to write a paper about, I'm gonna write it. And so this is what I know, this is my research, and I'm gonna write this paper because this is whatever, I'm gonna get graded on this. And how well it is was determined on whether you wrote to the professor who's providing you the task, right? So if if he was a liberal, then you had to write it from that perspective. Because if it was a conservative like me, and I'm writing a paper on something, it's gonna come out, something like that. And I didn't take that into consideration. So I'm getting all these just just great, you know, papers formatted and all content and all this stuff, and not not a stranger to writing because I'm used to writing, and but I didn't I didn't put that in the equation. And one professor actually said that. Give me like a I don't know, equated to like a D on a paper. That was a pretty big one, I thought. Pretty important subject. And and it had to do with the Middle East and our involvement and wars and stuff like that. So I had some background history on knowing what happens from the operational side of things. Been involved in a couple things myself during my R time. So I wrote the paper, and based off of experience, my experience on the ground over here, and people I interact with and stuff like that. The professor was like, no, I got 70 something, 71, or just passing. And I got, I was like, Well, okay, tell me, well, how did I get this? And this dude over here who I knew plagiarized his paper. He's got like a top score on his, it's like a the example he's gonna show off. And he started explaining to me about my paper. I was like, no, but uh first hand experience. That's not I'm not so yeah, I did some research and other things too, but and I have some other references in here, but some of that's first hand experience. And he's like, so he so who am I, right? To him. He's like, You were he goes, we ever were you ever over there? I was like, Yeah. Until he's like that whole conversation uh about now, he's offended that I might know something firsthand information. I've been somewhere, I'd been, you know, to the the places that I'm writing about and I'm handing my paper in based off of my first hand knowledge. And he's like, No, you haven't. He's like, I'm I'm a whatever acad academic academia, you know, scholar and all this other stuff, and I have not heard this stuff. I was like, I'm just telling you that's what I've seen when I was there. That didn't go over. He's offended now. He's like, no, he's like, you you student, aren't you know, you don't talk to me like you know things. I'm the professor. And so that whole dynamics there was like all right. Then I got back into my whole knuckle dragger thing. It's like, how about I just punch you in the face? Yeah, it's like, okay, this all these things are like, oh, yeah, it's like, okay, and then it's explained to me in a group study session afterwards that they have other beliefs too. My other students were with me in these study groups, and we're getting ready for the next paper and the next group assignment, and they're saying, Yeah, well, my mom, my dad, they told me that this is what I have to do while I'm here. Doesn't matter what I think, I have to write my paper to like appease the professor in order to get good grades here. I was like, that's no, that's just wrong. Like, that's not the way it should be, because I'm a parent myself, right? And that's not what I would tell my kid. But that's what he had to do to pass, cooperate to graduate, kind of thing. And that was never that way. That was contrary to what anything I believed in to do anything, and there's all that that was happening, and couldn't adjust into and I had to do that. I was in order to pass those classes and get good grades, and I wanted to get so they were telling me at the State Department and the Secret Service that like your your GPA is gonna matter where we're gonna end up placing you. So just do well in school, concentrate on that, and do well. Try to get a 4.0. If not, it was like I think 3.2 or something like that was like the minimum that they would accept and then place me somewhere. So they they were gonna hire me. Now all I have to do is get a 3.2 grade point average, and I can that's minimum requirements. It's like okay, but shoot for four. It's like okay, always, of course. And in order to do that, I had to do a lot of pandering and placating and just randomly. So we didn't have chat GBT and all that stuff back in the day. So it's like literally research libraries and writing stuff and and those kind of things. So yeah, it was that was just something I couldn't, I just I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't so so to me I was like, I don't know, I'm compromising my integrity, is how I took it. I was like, I can't do that.

Host 5:32:40

Did you really feel like you had the skills too to go back into the civilian workforce to do something different? I mean, you've you've lived this life where you're at the tip of the spear, man. It's really hard to some people have a hard time letting that go.

SPEAKER_00 5:32:52

Yeah, no, I thought I still had some something to offer in another capacity. I was still, you know, time time to make a life change uh for me, physically, mentally, and everything else. So uh that's that's what I was. I was really in a positive headspace for that. I it was just my trend the transition itself. Like, okay, this is so and I didn't remember 20 years ago what I had to do to in my my Toys R Us time frame to pander, placate to the bosses and all that stuff to get through the the management training program. So that was just like a slap in the face to me. I was like, well, I don't know if I mean it's it's it's my my character, my integrity, all that stuff at risk here. And no, I'm not willing to do that. But if that's what it takes, I don't know. I guess I'm gonna have to try to figure it out. Or graduate with an extremely low grade point average.

Host 5:33:49

Did you not finish in college?

SPEAKER_00 5:33:51

Nope. Nope. So when I in 03, when I had the opportunity to get back into the mix somehow with with triple canopy, that's that's what I decided to do. I was like, I'm with like-minded people again, I'm back in my comfort zone and stuff like that, and I know what I need to do there a little bit more my environment. So it was good for me then in that regard. So it was good for me to get back out there and do stuff like again, and it really helped me out, actually.

Host 5:34:19

So you get on with triple canopy, you're doing like a dignitary protection mission really for DSS. Was that a state mission?

SPEAKER_00 5:34:27

Yep, it was called the Whips Company Coalition Provisional Authority were the were the State Department folks, were the were those guys at the time. But yeah, it was straight up diplomatic security kind of stuff.