Breaking Addiction & Building Desert Plunge: Matt Kuiper's Recovery Journey

What do you do when you've lost everything—your family, your future, your will to live? For Matt Kuiper, founder of Desert Plunge, the answer came in the form of 38-degree water. This is the story of a man who went from two DUIs and jail time to building one of the fastest-growing cold plunge companies in America—and how he discovered that our darkest moments can become our greatest purpose.

Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
4:00 - Early Childhood & Christian Reform Upbringing
15:10 - First Antidepressants at 15
17:20 - First Drink: "I Cannot Wait to Do This Again"
30:50 - First DUI at 16, Second at 21
37:40 - The Day I Almost Died: 220 BPM Heart Rate
47:30 - Green Oaks Ranch: 6-Month Rehab
53:00 - Meeting My Wife in Rehab
1:09:00 - Relapse: Wife Kicks Me Out
1:17:00 - Rock Bottom & 90 Meetings in 90 Days
1:27:00 - Why Marriage is Worth Fighting For
1:37:00 - Becoming an Electrician: The Trades vs College
1:48:00 - 2019 Mental Health Crisis in Ecuador
2:01:00 - Cold Plunge Changed Everything
2:07:00 - Building Desert Plunge from Garage to Business
2:34:00 - Customer Service & Business Philosophy
2:51:00 - Plant Medicine: 5-MEO, Kambo, Ketamine
3:04:00 - Faith, Fatherhood & Breaking Cycles
3:19:00 - SSRIs, Big Pharma & Alternative Medicine
3:27:00 - Final Message: You Can Change Your Story

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Transcript

Host 0:09

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Vanguard Wall Podcast. This is going to be a really cool interview. It's something I've been looking forward to doing for a while. It's definitely a little bit of a different type of interview than we've done on this channel, although we're still going to talk about mental health and some of the things. I met Matt, man, it's been three, four months. I think I can't really, it's been a while. It seems like it's been a while anyway. Matt's the owner of Desert Plunge, a cold plunge company, and it's a big part of my daily regimen. It has been for a while. The cold plunge I'd been using sucked. And I'll talk about that later on in the podcast. And I ended up reaching out to Matt reading about the company. And we'll dive into the backside, you know, why why I went with this company. But I ended up getting to know Matt, reached out and wanted to talk to him. And you know, we we hit it off. And I was like, man, are you you should come and talk on the podcast? Your story is like super unique. So I'm excited, man. First and foremost, I wanted to, I mean, you're running an extremely busy company, and I know it's it's hard to take time away from not only family, but from you know, from running a company to fly all the way out here to come talk to us. But I really want to thank you for being willing to share your story and tell the world about your company.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, man. Absolutely.

Host 1:22

Uh, before we before we deep dive into this, everybody gets an intro. So uh, ladies and gentlemen, Matt Kuyper.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

That's right. Nailed it.

Host 1:31

Today's guest is someone I genuinely believe was meant to be on this podcast. Matt Kuyper is the founder of Desert Plunged, but that's not why he's here. He's here because the story is one of the rawest examples of redemption and grit I've heard in a long time. Wounds from the outside. Matt's childhood looked pretty normal. Church, school, stable home. Inside, there was dysfunction and pain. He didn't understand at the time. By 15, he was on antidepressants, and also by 15, he discovered alcohol. And from that first drink, he knew something had changed. In him, he couldn't wait to do it again. Two DUIs before 21, 10th city under Sheriff Joe Arpayo out there in Arizona. Then a cocaine etabanol PM cocktail that sent his heart rate to 220 beats per minute. He should have died. Rehab saved his life, six months at a rehab in California, and it's where he met his beautiful wife. They got clean together, got married, started a family. Matt became a journeyman electrician, worked his way up for 20 years, eventually becoming a partner in the company. But here's the thing about addiction. Sometimes Rock Bottom has a basement. Matt relapsed. His daughter was two, his son was a newborn, and his wife kicked him out of the house. Two months later, after 90 meetings in 90 days, she let him come home, and Matt hasn't touched drugs or alcohol since. Fast forward to 2019, Matt's sober. He's a partner in a successful electrical company. He got his family. Life should be good. Then out of nowhere, severe anxiety, crippling depression, panic attacks, seven months of absolute hell. He tried everything therapy, SSRIs, EMDR, working out, all the right things. Just really couldn't find that thing that fit. Until his brother mentioned this guy named Wim Hoff in cold water therapy. Matt found a wellness center with a cold plunge, one session, three minutes and 38-degree water, and his brain reset. The darkness lifted. He could see his future again, and he knew right then other people needed this. So Matt did what most people won't do. He left a partnership, walked away from 20 years in the electrical trade, and bet everything on his idea. Started building cold plunges in his garage. His wife, a former saleswoman, started selling them on Facebook Marketplace, and Deadrick Blunge was born. Today they're competing with companies charging six to ten grand for cold plunging plunges, and they're winning because Matt built something affordable, simple, that actually works. But more than that, Matt's living proof that your darkest moments can become your greatest purpose, that you can break generational cycles, that redemption is real. This is Matt Kuyper. Let's get into it. Pretty cool, man. Before we dive in, tell folks who you are in one sentence. Who's Matt?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah. Husband, father of two kids, my son Mason and Riley, my daughter, and then believer, love Jesus. Love it. And just self-discipline and somebody who loves to challenge himself.

Host 4:17

Love that, dude. We're gonna dive super into some of those things, especially on the backside. You got some cool things coming up. I always kind of start with this question: What's what's your earliest childhood memory? Good, bad, or indifferent?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, I was thinking about that question. Man, my my childhood memories are pretty foggy, but I do remember one. I remember I was my parents were bringing me to daycare, and I did not want to go. I was terrified to go. I was I was a homebody. I think, I mean, just growing up as a very, very shy kid. But I remember they dropped me off and I was terrified. They and then the the teacher finally got me to play uh tetherball. Started playing tetherball, and then within like the first 15 seconds, I got smashed in the face with it. And I just remember screaming and crying for the next hour. I don't know if my parents came and picked me up or my mom got me or whatever, but that's probably one of my so probably four years old. Um that was my first I remember tetherball, dude.

Host 5:13

It's been it's been a long time since I played that game. That was that's our childhood, man. That's what we played growing up. Yeah, you know, just hit the crap out of it and then try to duck and hit it back. Talk to me about like what was it like growing up, kind of where you're from, and uh and a little bit about you know your story, kind of your early beginnings.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah. So yeah, born and raised in Arizona, grew up in Tempe. As you mentioned, both my I grew up in a Christian home and grew up in a Christian reformed church. So we were going to church Sunday morning, then come home, then go back to church Sunday night. So we're going to church two times in a day and throw out Sunday school on top of that. I I honestly I hated it. It felt very legalistic. I think as I got older, it kind of pushed me away from church for a little bit. But both my parents were teachers in Christian education. I'm you know, a brief intro there. There, you know, there was some dysfunction growing up, but looking back on it as I got as I've gotten older now, you know, I do know that my parents loved me. Are there some things that they should have done different? Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, but I think we can all say that as parents too.

Host 6:16

Oh god, yeah. I could tell you plenty of things I should have done different with my kids.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah. So, you know, they they they did the best they could. Um, I have two brothers. I've got a middle brother that's about 18 months younger than me, and then a younger brother that's about seven years younger than me. My my middle brother, we were fairly close growing up, and then my youngest, you know, by the time he was he had gotten older, I was already out of the house. So I I still don't have the best relationship with him today. We're we're working on that. Hopefully that'll get better over the years. That's awesome.

Host 6:48

What's it like growing up in a house with like parents that are both teachers? Was like, was education like really crammed or or what what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Yeah, they didn't they didn't force education down my throat. I mean, I was not a good student. I really struggled with school early on, and then we'll probably get into this later. I mean, I pretty much cheated my way through high school, but the part I didn't like about having parents that were educators was I'd have to get up early every morning and be at like honestly, it felt like I was getting up at like 4:30, 5 o'clock every morning. We'd go to school, then I'd be waiting there for like an hour, hour and a half before school would start. So that's the part I didn't like at all.

Host 7:33

What do were you did were your parents both teachers in the school that you went to?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah. So my mom, well, actually, my mom was a teacher at the grade school, my grandma was a teacher at the grade school, my dad was a teacher at the high school, and my grandpa was actually the janitor. So I had eyes on me at all times. It was it was rough. And as I got older in high school, you know, I'd if I'd act up in class, teachers would just walk over, tell my dad right on me during during school. So it was tough.

Host 8:00

Christian Reform Church. I don't know that I'm familiar with that. What's what's that about? Is that just like a like a strict version of Christianity or yeah, I mean, it's uh it's very old school.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

You know, like you go to church and you'll see the hymnal books in the pews and stuff like that. And and I say legalistic, like there's just, and you know, I haven't I haven't been to a Christian reformed church since I've been probably 17, but you know, they they have views like they believe in predestination and things like that. Okay. Um and they have kind of different just rules and regulations, not regulations, but just beliefs that like hey, this is this is how it needs to be and what we need to do.

Host 8:45

Cool. I mean, grow up in a house, you got but I mean both your parents are like in education, you got three boys. I mean, you and your brother, your your your middle brother, you're only 18 years apart. What kind of kids were you guys into sports? Were you guys like super rambuctio outside all the time?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Or yeah, growing up until we were seven, we were actually on a fairly well, at the time it seemed big, big property for us. So we were outside playing all the time, me and my middle brother. I remember we now I go back there today and it was a small backyard, but it seemed like a huge backyard. So we were me and my brother were out there all the time playing, and it was a lot of fun. I mean, like, you know, back then we didn't have video games. We didn't have, I mean, we had a TV, but I think it was black and white like at the time too. So like we were we were never inside. We were outside all the time. So playing basketball. I know my my dad would come out and play uh play basketball with us. We'd set up like a little Tikes hoop and then we'd we've got the big basketball hoop and we'd play. And I remember my middle brother, uh Jared, he would get so angry when my dad would start beating us. So those are fun times.

Host 9:51

What what kind of kid were you in school, man? Were you more like I mean, you told me you like you I know you weren't an academic kid. Were you kind of into athletics or were you more artistic or yeah?

SPEAKER_00 10:02

I was I was more into athletics academically. I I really struggled. Honestly, I didn't do well academically until I graduated high school and joined trade trade school for the apprenticeship program to be an electrician. But yeah, I loved sports. I played all the sports I could, and then I think in seventh grade I got into Pop Warner, and that was like that that was my jam. I really knew that's what I loved to do. So then played Pop Warner through seventh and eighth grade, then just in high school. I ran track my freshman year, the but then started getting a little bit bigger. So then I ended up just start just throwing shot and disc, and then I would play I played football.

Host 10:41

So were that were you pretty passionate about it?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Oh yeah.

Host 10:44

I mean, people watch your eyes light up when you start talking about football.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

I mean, it was like it was my outlet, man. Like I I could get my emotions out. I was always a bigger kid, I was always one of the stronger kids, especially playing at a small private school. I got to play both ways. Like I never came off the field. You know, I got to play special teams, offense, defense. It was a blast.

Host 11:06

You went, I mean, you've mentioned that you went to a kind of like a private, small Christian school. What was that experience like kind of as you look back now that you're older and you have kids in school?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Yeah. Yeah. So I went to private Christian school all the way from kindergarten to 12th grade. I'd say the the the kindergarten to eighth grade experience was good. It was small. It was, you know, my class was like 20 people, so all of us were friends. It was, you know, it was a good time. I mean, one of my best friends, I've known him since kindergarten. We're still good friends today. So we've still maintained that connection. I'd say when I got to high school, it was it was much harder, you know, going to a private school, a lot of people have money. And I felt I felt that being a teacher's kid, not that we were struggling, but you know, both parents being teachers, we didn't have tons of money. But going to these private schools, there's a lot of people with money there, and I felt that entitlement. And maybe that was more me just perceiving it and it wasn't actually happening. But I that was hard for me growing up. And then, you know, just being just being a teacher's kid in a private school, I just kind of felt I I just felt that kind of people had it out for me a little bit. This probably wasn't true, but that was my perception back then.

Host 12:30

Yeah, I went to a small Christian private school for a couple of years, and to your point, there was a lot of interesting things in the smaller private schools that I saw one, wealthy people, but two, a lot of kids that had gotten in trouble at a lot of other schools, you know, they get kicked out of public school and go to private. So we had this mix of kids in our school of kids that came from really good families, and then kids that were not the greatest kids to be around. So it was it was a definitely unique experience. You mentioned, and and it, you know, it came up in in our in our podcast press too. Your dad eventually became the principal at your school. What what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah. Well, actually, so he he was my human anatomy or biology teacher. So he was a principal, and then I think he stepped down, and then when I got there, he was my human anatomy teacher. And by that time, I was by I think it was a sophomore when I took his biology class. So I was already starting to get kind of go down the wrong path. And I just I remember I I was not the best student, but I mean, in my dad's class, I was fine, but I just remember like you know, high schoolers are assholes, man. And they would give my dad a hard time and it would piss me off. So I was pretty protective of my dad. I don't know if he actually knew that. I didn't think about that. That's that's kind of unique. Yeah. You know, I've got I got into some fights over it and stuff like that. But looking back on it, I mean, to me it felt kind of normal, honestly, because having my my my mom, my grandma, my dad, like I'd just been used to it. So the only thing that kind of the that kind of stood out was just you know being protective over those kids that were jerks, yeah, just like I was to teachers.

Host 14:17

But but this one's different because it's your dad. Yeah, that makes sense. You got on antidepressants at 15, it was something that we said started talking pretty heavily about when we did your, you know, when we were talking before the podcasts. Walk me through what was going on in your life and kind of you know what led to that.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah. I was I was struggling. I was I was really, really shy. I didn't have a lot of friends, you know. So that would is that would have been like my sophomore year in high school. So I had really like one friend from grade school that carried over into high school. I kind of had some like OCD, some obsessive compulsive stuff going on. And I was I was struggling. And like I I just remember being like terrified walking down the halls in high school, like having to look somebody in the eye or say hi to somebody, and I just couldn't make friends. And so I think that's when my parents decided to bring me in, and you know, they I don't know what they actually labeled me with, whether if it was depression or uh OCD, I'm not sure. But they put me on a SSRI, and that really changed a lot of things, good and bad, for me at that point.

Host 15:29

I really want to dive into that. What uh I mean I I what changed when you started taking it? Did did you do you remember? I don't know, man, we're talking a long time ago, but do you remember like some of the shifts and kind of what what it was like?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah, I remember the first time. I'm like, wow, I feel different. I remember I was I'm I was walking down the hall and the halls were empty. It must have been like a I was going to the bathroom or something, but I saw this girl, and normally I'd like to keep my head down, try and try to avoid eye contact. But I walked past her, I'm like, hey, how's it going? And like I just acknowledge her, said hi. I'm like, I would have never ever done that before. I'm like, wow, this is a cool shift. Like, I like this. I you know, I'm more open, I'm more talkative, I feel more comfortable. So at that point, you know, the first few months I was on it, it was great.

Host 16:24

Were you doing any other kind of uh like either family therapy or counseling or anything at that time? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I can't remember. I was going to see a counselor. I don't remember at what point in my life that was. That might have been a little bit later. Okay. Yeah. So I don't think I was doing anything else at the time.

Host 16:40

What when did alcohol? Because I know you know at 15 you started taking antidepressants, and 15 is also when you started drinking. Yeah. What what was that? Or just walk me through your first experience and what happened.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Yeah, the first experience with alcohol. We were in my buddy's house and down in his basement, his parents had a liquor cabinet, and there was probably like 20 different, you know, vodkas and liquors and stuff in there. So we we got this big like you know, 32-ounce cup and just took a little bit out of each bottle so they wouldn't notice that we were stealing it. So we probably had 15 different alcohols mixed together, and then we just did shot after shot, got super sick. I actually threw a dip in too for the first time at at that night and got really, really sick, but it was a blast. Like I had so much fun. So that was my first experience. And like I remember waking up the next day, and I remember this very, very clearly. Like, we were sitting in a McDonald's eating, and all I could think about was that was amazing. Like, I cannot wait to do this again. I'm like sitting here thinking, like, why is nobody else talking about this? Like, what like this was awesome. And I think just the combination of the alcohol mixed with the SSRI, just I mean, it it did something to me. It opened up a whole new world.

Host 18:04

Was there anybody that you're aware of, uh, even looking back now, that struggled with dependency in in your mom or dad's side of the family?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

No, that's the weird part. Nobody that I know of. That yeah.

Host 18:19

What do you think it was that kind of really I don't know, made it fun? Was it something where you kind of felt like you got out of your skin? Or I'm just I find you know, I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, I I felt like I could completely get out of my skin. I was a whole new person. Like everybody loved being around me. I was the life of the party. I had I wasn't nervous anymore. I had a lot of I'm I started making a lot of friends. I was the uh Yeah. People people always compared me like stifler from American Pie. So I liked that label, like you know, like this is who I am. So I started identifying with that, you know.

Host 18:56

Do you I mean looking back and knowing everything that you've been through, right? And we're gonna dive into this to that story as we go on, but looking back, do you think do you attribute that to the drugs in the SSRIs, or do you think that was, you know, your personality was already in there and this just helped draw it out?

SPEAKER_00 19:14

That's a good question, man. I think I think it was probably already in there. And then just the combination just magnified it.

Host 19:25

And I know we're not gonna dive super into kind of your childhood because it's not really that that important to talk about all the trauma or whatever, but do you think you were also using like some of the SSRIs and the alcohol to kind of you know suppress and or deal with some of the other things were going on in your life?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, I mean, I still even notice that today. Like I wanted something to mask emotions. Like I didn't like feeling things. And you know, when I used alcohol and especially getting on SSRIs too, like people might disagree with me, but you know, I think SSRI kind of kind of puts you on this just like even keel emotional level where you don't have to feel a lot of highs or a lot of lows. Now with alcohol, I felt a lot of high, but I didn't have to feel those lows, you know. So, like to me, it was like, dude, this is this is easy. Like, I don't have to feel this. And like even today, like I struggle with feeling emotion, like I don't like feeling overly excited, I don't like feeling sad. I and like when I start feeling those emotions, I try to find ways to like shove them down or mask them, you know. So yeah, I think it was our always ingrained in me, but yeah, some of that stuff from childhood and led me to kind of try and mask and hide it.

Host 20:38

You played football and I watched your eyes light up when you started talking about football, but I I'm curious, and and you're an athletic dude in general, how did you balance being an athlete with kind of you know that partying lifestyle? Because that's those don't always those don't always work in an end.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I don't know how I did it. I mean after every football game, you know, we'd go, we'd go in my buddy's basement and we'd we'd do something where it was drinking, smoking weed. And it wasn't terrible in high school. It got a lot worse, like probably my my senior year is when it started getting really bad. But like I don't know, I mean high school, like I said, I just kind of cheated my way through high school. Like I I never never did homework. Like I'd be doing all my assignments like the day before like the hour before class, getting all those done. But yeah, I remember I'm I'm lucky I didn't get kicked off the team. I remember going to uh a camp and it was all it was up north, it was like three hours. And I had been out all night the night before drinking. And we load up in the van, we're driving up, and I'm I'm still hammered going up there. And my coach is like, What is going on with Kuiper? Like he's like, Something's wrong with this guy. And he's like, Is he drunk or something? I can hear him talking to somebody up front, and I'm like, dude, I've got to get this under control. But, you know, luckily, luckily, you know, I was able to somehow manage through high school.

Host 22:09

Did anyone know what was going on? Like teachers' coaches. Did your parents have any clue?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah, my parents knew. They they started, I mean, they started, well, I got my first DUI when I was 16. Wow. So yeah, my parents definitely knew. I don't know how much they shared with other people. I don't my coaches didn't know anything like that. You know, my friends, my close friends, as it got worse, they kind of knew what was going on and some of them kind of separated themselves from me. But yeah, my my parents knew like and you know they tried to do what they could, but at that point like I had made up my mind like this is what I loved and this is what I was going to do.

Host 22:48

So how did that go with your first DUI at 16? That's that's pretty eye-opening.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Yeah. I think I had my license for two weeks man. Wow. And we I remember I stole like a bottle of vodka. We went and saw a movie drank like the whole fifth of vodka probably in in the movie theater and then I we drove out of there. I remember I hit somebody in the parking lot and I took off went and dropped my buddy off and then after I dropped him off I got lost. I didn't know where to go and this was before you had like you know GPS and stuff like that. So I ended up at an airport. Now this was like a yeah this was Chandler Chandler airport Williams Air Force Base and like I couldn't like I was so so out of it man but I ended up running through a chain link fence at first I was driving around this air traffic circle and in circles like I couldn't figure out how to get out of there. Like my lights were off obviously somebody called the cops because they saw me but yeah I ended up running under this chain link fence hit the fence and then went under it and then the fence went back down. So I got out of the car and I'm like looking like how did I get out of here I'm in this grass field. So then I had to run through the fence again to get back out and that's when the cops pulled me over I don't know what my blood alcohol level was it was through the roof. I mean I was it was it was really bad. So that was my first UI they hauled me to jail my parents came pick me up that night what was that what was that next like morning like you know you're coming up you're sobering up probably a little hungover like what was going through your head nothing honestly like I was just trying to figure out how quickly I could get my car back and drive again like I remember I was like lobbying to my parents like you know like trying to get them to let me drive again like I'm like which is crazy to think about right like I just got a DUI at 16. I was driving around an air traffic circle at an airport running through fences and then the next morning I'm like why aren't you gonna let me drive like you guys are jerks. You know what I mean? My parents wouldn't let me drove a bicycle yeah so yeah I don't I didn't really have any remorse I was a little bit worried about like what was gonna happen. Obviously you know I had to figure out how to repair my car the damages for the fence and then show up in court but I don't remember really did you get your license suspended for a year? No. Really?

Host 25:28

So I was supposed to show up in court but the cop never showed up so the whole case got dropped wow so nothing ever happened from that besides I think I had we had to pay for the damage to the fence so yeah that's a good look good little bit of raw luck there man yeah so you know you you said your senior year is kind of when you really hit the gas kind of on party and walk me through kind of your senior year and then kind of graduation and and what those first couple years were like yeah um senior year it was a lot of I think you know it's hard for my parents because I just kind of do it whatever I wanted you know they they had a curfee for me but I wouldn't follow it you know you know almost every weekend I'd be out drinking finding some party to go to half the time I wouldn't even know how I made it home or I just pass out somewhere so I was like I was able to maintain during the week I was all right but the weekends were really really bad. Do you think like did your parents just not have boundaries or they do you just feel like looking back like they just couldn't control you and they I mean because you're a parent now right and and you know you can obviously put yourself in that so you're just like walk me through kind of like your thought process.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

I don't know it's a good question. They were they were very strict growing up you know my dad was my dad was very strict and I think I was probably sheltered like from a lot of things and then once I started experiencing more of this real world world stuff I just kind of broke out and then at that point like it was hard. I mean I can I look back and I'm like I don't know what I would do if I was a parent right like you're not even 18 yet so you can't kick them out of the house. You know they could have taken my keys right but I don't know what I would have done. I would have figured something else out so they were in a bad spot nothing they were doing was working they might have been they might have enabled me way too they might have been able enabled me too much you know yeah but that's that's hard like I think about now as my kids are getting older like if I'm in that situation like what would I do? Could I cut them off completely you know well and now that would probably be my next question you know there's a lot of lot of dads listening and you know a lot of just a a lot of folks that have kids and you know what do you say to that dad who is struggling right now with a kid that's like you right like yeah I mean you gotta love them but it's gotta be tough love you know you gotta especially if they're 18 like at some point you're their you're their parent right and you want to help them and do as much as you can for them but if you keep continue to give them opportunities and they keep failing like at some point you're gonna have to cut them off and that's so much harder that's easier said than done right now when they're in high school you know I don't know I probably if it was me I probably wouldn't be taking my kids' keys they wouldn't be they wouldn't at least be driving my car right I mean they could sneak out and stuff but you know make it as hard as possible for them but yeah it it it's difficult I think the big the biggest thing is enabling you don't want to enable and because you feel like you're helping them you know but you're really enabling them and you know it's tough love and at some point you got to love them from a distance.

Host 29:01

Yeah no that's I know we talked a lot off camera about some things going on in my life too so yeah that definitely resonates with me. I know you got your second DUI when you're around 21.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

So before before we kind of dive into that you graduate high school you're you're kind of you know you I remember you kind of told me you know you were just kind of unhinged almost a little bit yeah had you gotten into like harder drugs other than you know smoking weed and and and just drinking yeah I mean I started getting into painkillers I was actually in painkiller getting into painkillers too in high school I had a buddy that he had I think he tore his ACL twice in high school so that's when I was first introduced to painkillers because he'd had painkillers from the surgery and back then you know nobody thought about it like they'd leave painkillers on the counter so we were popping those I think his mom did start like raising questions at one point like how are we going how are you going through these so quickly but that's and I'll tell you like when I got into the opiate world like that was a whole new ball game like I I mean screw alcohol I mean opiates were the way to go for me like it gave me this just amazing energy high feeling and that was my new love. So I mean I lived off that stuff like after high school I mean I was buying oxycotton off the street which I got super super sick. I mean I lived on oxycotton for probably like six months I probably lost like 30 40 pounds I couldn't keep food down I was constantly throwing up you do that nowadays you're a dead man yeah yeah and I remember I was buying them from some girl that her mom had some rare disease and really needed really needed the pills probably but she's selling them to me so yeah from basically alcohol weed then got into opiates when opiates were hard to get I'd do coke then I got really into coke and I really enjoyed that too like the upper the upper I really really liked that I never got into like meth or heroin I mean oxycoton is basically heroin but I knew like smoking or injecting anything like that I'd probably be dead like I knew that in my brain like if I went down that path there'd be no returning luckily somehow I never did it and I thank God I had some common sense. Were you uh were you working at this time still with your parents or or yeah I was I was well yeah I was working at the time I mean I always held the job I never I'd always show up to work whether I was high hung over drunk whatever but out of high school I started working for my best friend's dad he had electrical business he had he had this was a second business he just started but it he'd been he'd started about a couple months prior to me joining so I was like one of his first employees had no clue what I was doing but he's like hey if you need work for the summer just come work for me so this was right out of high school I had no intentions of sticking it out because I remember like we were just doing a bunch of demo work and it was in the middle of the summer I'm like this sucks man because it's hot nervous yeah it's hot no AC in these this building I'm like I'm never I'm never doing this there's no way I'm doing this and then 20 years later I was still there so yeah and then you know on the weekends I'd go out partying stuff like that during the week I I held it in check as much as I could like I do coke and stuff and opiates and then on the weekend were my big drinking drinking times and I remember sometimes I'd have to work on the weekend and I'd pull these all nighters and just show up hammered I remember I'd sleep in the parking lot sometimes because like I'd go out on a Friday night to a bar or whatever still in my work clothes I'd be out all night and then I'm like oh shoot I got to go to work the next day so I'd just go to the job site park there and get a couple hours of sleep and start working.

Host 32:58

Were you living at home?

SPEAKER_00 32:59

I was off and on at home like I moved out pretty quickly after I turned 18 with a buddy and we moved into an apartment I'd run out of money move back home get some money move back out so I was in and out a few times.

Host 33:13

Looking back where you I mean do you think one of the reasons you run out of money is your habit?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Oh yeah yeah I remember like trying to decide okay I've got like 20 bucks should I go buy a bag of Coke or put gas in my car? Wow you know what I mean so you got you got your second DUI around 21 walk me through like that experience yeah that one we were just with a bunch of friends we were drinking and I don't know why like I insisted it wasn't even my car but I insisted on driving my buddy's car my buddy's truck I think we were at a bowling alley leaving to go somewhere and got pulled over and had an open beer bottle in the center council um so I obviously knew right away and I didn't get taken to jail that night I went home but I was pretty devastated like I'm like dude two DUIs I'm screwed like it was right right around Christmas time too and I don't know how it all transpired but I ended up having to do 10 days in 10 city with Joe or pyle and I yeah I was either 20 or 21 at the time and I was I was scared man I was like I mean I told you I showed up to 10 city and at the time I was like shaving my legs shaving my arms like I had earrings like I was this pretty boy and then all of a sudden a sudden I show up in Tent City I had these brand new Nikes on when I showed up these guys are looking at my shoes they're like telling me you better not take those off man those are gonna walk away so it was it was eye opening I was on work furlough so I got to I had to sleep there then I can go to work during the day um then come back at night and sleep and 10 days felt like 10 months it was it was brutal. Were they making you wear like the pink jumpsuits and all that I didn't have to do that because I was on work furlough.

Host 35:06

So yeah for those of you who don't know the whole tent city thing Joe R. Pyle that was huge in Maricopa County I remember that was like all over the news too he had that sheriff in that county set up like an entire just like it sounds a huge tent city outdoors in Arizona where it's like hot and it was pretty much making inmates live in these tents and and work outside it was a pretty big deal.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I think they had to wear like pink jumpsuits and it was kind of made to half be demeaning and half made to like make it a miserable experience so oh dude it was miserable I mean the problem was when I was there in winter it was freezing dude and like they gave you this little sheet this croquet sheet to throw on you like I was freezing the entire time so yeah it was not a not a fun experience that should have been your wake up call what uh what happened dude yeah I don't know I just wasn't done like that that wasn't my rock bottom got out and just continued down that path I think I don't remember when it was it was probably shortly after that I ended up going to like a one month rehab facility in Phoenix it was an inpatient but I mean honestly those one month things don't don't do anything they're not long enough when I first why do you say they're not long enough I mean it's just not long enough to just reestablish like sobriety you know like 30 days I mean you get back out and you need to build new habits and patterns and reframe your thinking and mindset and really dive deep and yeah 30 days is it just doesn't do it for for most people like I'm sure it's worked for some people but you know somebody like me that wasn't long enough like I got out and then I was like when I was in there I was like yeah I'm I'm gonna stay sober but I was also 21 22 years old and you know I got out started hanging out out with all the same old friends and I was probably drinking and party again two days after I got out I remember you told me like when we were podcast prepping that you know you talked about blackout drinking and and waking up not knowing how you got home looking back now as a father like how do you process those memories yeah that's scary man there's some stuff that I did that probably can't say on camera that I look back I'm like dude like I'm lucky I'm here today and I think about that as now my kids are getting older you know my daughter's 14 my son's thirteen and it's scary and you know you can only hope you just you just have instilled in them you know the the right things as they they've grown up and hopefully they'll talk to you and be honest with you and but yeah I worry a lot there's I worry a lot walk me through the day you almost died man what happened yeah that I think I was probably 22 I was waiting for my Coke dealer to get back to me like I'd been out for like two three days so I was like he kept telling me oh it's gonna be here soon gonna be here soon so I was like I just had anxiety dude I was like I I need this I want it like I was Jonesing for it so I just kept hitting him up hitting him up he's like oh it should be here should be here and then by that time it was like 6 p.m I'm like dude I just need to go to bed like I was just like so anxious so I popped a couple Tylenol PM couldn't sleep so I popped a couple more probably ended up taking like eight Tylenol PM just to try and get to sleep well finally my phone goes off at like midnight he's like hey I got it and I'm like I should probably because I had fallen asleep at that point woke me up I'm like I could probably fall back asleep right now I should just get it tomorrow but no I decided to drive it was probably like a 30 minute drive to go get it I was so out of it got it and then I started using the Coke with the mixture of the Tylenol PM and then so I was up all night and then I went to work at like 6 30 and that's it was just a bad bad count but I don't know what happened but I remember working I s I lost my vision and I probably lost my vision for like five minutes and then all sound kind of just got muffled like I was underwater. I couldn't really hear anything and then just like my vision my vision finally started slowly returning but I'm like oh dude this is this is bad like I don't know what's going on I ended up driving myself to my parents' house where I knew my brother was which like a five ten minute drive I didn't tell them what had happened at the time but I just went there because I knew I I I might need help but I still kept doing lines like I I didn't stop like I had an eight ball in my pocket I just kept doing it and then I remember I was like holding something and my whole left arm locked up on me. I'm like I couldn't I couldn't unlock it. So I thought I didn't know like what was happening I had if I had a heart attack or if I was about to have a stroke or something but my heart was beating out of my chest and I finally told my brother I'm like dude I got to go to the hospital he's like why like what what's going on and I and I told him I just remember him looking at me he's like you're an idiot and I didn't know this but he was contemplating not taking me he had called some family friends of ours to just ask for advice because he's like he was so pissed at me and they're like no you need you need to take him to the hospital but before we left I decided to try and do one more line I was in my in the shed and I remember my brother walked in on me and I just I quickly had to brush it off onto the floor and the sad thing is the sick thing is we can get into a little bit more but the next morning I went to go find that again scrape it up off the ground and and do it and use the do the line but anyways he brought me to the hospital my my heart rate was 220 beats per minute and then the nurse looked at me like dude what are you doing so yeah my heart should have exploded man and it was like 220 beats per minute for hours and hours so I finally got it to calm down gave me a bunch of IVs and I remember just the I went back to my parents house slept it off and then yeah next morning got up and scooped that stuff off the ground and did another line like it didn't didn't even phase me.

Host 41:51

As you go back now right you're sober you got a family you're got a successful business what was going on back then or or or what do you what do you think you were chasing or running from or I I'm really I'm really curious because you know you and I have had some some long conversations and you know to to see where you are now and where you came from is you know for me out from the outside looking in is pretty remarkable. Yeah. But as you go back and look at that time in your life you know DUIs and jail time and you know your your your family and and that effect and like what was it you think that that kept kept you locked into this vicious cycle I don't know what I was chasing man.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

We talked a little bit about like just suppressing you know some emotions and pressing some stuff that you know some stuff that I went through when I was younger. I also just loved the rush man I love the rush of it I love the feeling I got I love kind of like coming from a kid who had no friends who was scared to talk to people to I mean my my I remember my buddy was in college U of A and I'd go down there every weekend and people loved me man and it was awesome and I loved that feeling so it was a combination of a few things just you know just masking feelings masking emotions that I didn't like but also just and then just continuing to chase that high because you never have like that same type of high than when you first initially started and then you're just continuing to chase that high over and over again and you never get it again. I call it chasing the dragon yeah when did you realize you got a problem I think I realized that when I was 15 like when I was telling you I was sitting there at the McDonald's and after the first night I drank and just thinking about like how amazing this was I'm like this this isn't normal. I don't think that's normal like nobody else is talking about this. Like I want to just Start planning like when the next time we were gonna start drinking was. So I kind of knew then, like, I don't think this is normal, man. I think it might it might be different than people. But it didn't scare me at that time. It didn't bother me, you know.

Host 44:16

What was the point you realized, you know, you gotta change something, dude, or you're gonna ruin your life.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

That didn't happen until I was married, honestly. Like after, you know, I went to the hospital, you know, my heart rate was 220 beats per minute. My parents intervened and they found this place called Green Oaks Ranch for me. It's in Vista, California. Should still be around today. It's a great, great program for anybody out there looking. It's a faith-based program, but it was a six-month commitment, and you had to be sober to get in there. But it that that really set me on the path to sobriety. But even in, even then, like I knew I knew that that's what I wanted, but I wasn't ready. It wasn't, and we'll we'll get into this, but it wasn't until you know, I was like, I must have been like 25 or 23. I don't, I don't remember. But my wife kicked me out of the house. We had a kid, two kids actually. My daughter was 18 months and my son was just newborn.

Host 45:26

Before we dive into that, walk me through what was what what made Green Oaks. I mean, you've done a one-month program, you kind of said it wasn't enough. So you go into this six-month rehab program. What what made it different? Like, why was this program better? I mean, obviously it's much longer, but yeah, but what was it?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Well, why it was affordable, like the the person that owned the property bought it, and it was strictly intended for recovery-based programs. So for the next hundred years, the that land could not be used for anything else but that. And most of these places, like even a one-month facility, it's like 15 to 30 grand to go. This was $300 a month. Wow. So we could afford it. It was faith-based, and they taught you how to integrate back into society, be a normal human being again. Because, you know, a lot of us, you know, start when we're young and your maturity level kind of stops when you start using. So you could be 35, 40 years old, but you've got kind of the mental mental maturity level of a 15-year-old. So it takes time to kind of build that back up and integrate back into society. But it was a 142-acre ranch. They had like a farm there, they had a kitchen where they fed everybody. So you get there and immediately you're working 40 hours a week. You're required to do that, you're required to hit meetings. You cannot leave the ranch until month three, where you can go off site, maybe go to a grocery store if you want. So you can't even call anybody for the first three months either. So you're gonna have no interaction with loved ones, anything like that. But yeah, you're going to meetings, going to church, working every day. You've got a good group. It was co-ed, so it was male and female, but they were they were separate. The only time the men and women really saw each other was for meals. But I mean, you just made these deep connections with these guys that were struggling. And for me, too, it helped because that was in California. It was completely far away from everything I was attached to, and just being separated like that, it was a game changer. Walk me through what a normal day looked like at this rehab. Yeah, so you'd start out, it was it was cool. You'd start out in the bunk houses. You'd the new people would get the top bunk, and then as you kind of moved your way through, then you get to go to bottom bunk, and then as you'd been there for longer, then you get a room with just one other guy. But yeah, you get there, you're waking up early. I was on kitchen, the kitchen duty, so I was prepping food. So you'd wake up probably by 7 a.m. Go in the kitchen, start prepping food for everybody. So you're doing that eight hours a day. And then they had a they had a lot of stuff to do there. Once you, once you did your work for the day, you could go kind of go do your own thing. You gotta make sure you hit your meetings, but you could go work out. It was 142 acre ranch. There was there was hiking you could do, they had horseshoes, they had they had all kinds of stuff. And then, you know, church every Sunday. So what was it like being disconnected for those three months? I liked it. Yeah, I had it didn't bother me. I mean, uh the only I didn't have a lot of real good friends, so it's like it wasn't I had one close friend and he ended up coming to visit me at month three, which was cool, but yeah, it didn't bother me.

Host 48:55

You I I remember this was interesting too, and I I didn't hit it earlier, but you had to to get into to Green Oaks, you had to be sober.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah.

Host 49:03

Walk me through what it was like. I mean, it was like three days, right? You had to go through like a sobriety thing. Yeah, what was that detox like?

SPEAKER_00 49:11

The detox wasn't bad because I think I was pretty much off opiates at that time, so it's just coke. I don't remember if I was doing weed, so I don't think it was. So coke gets out of your system fairly quickly, but you know, I I'd done it the day before, so I knew I wasn't gonna pass a drug test. So like the physical detox wasn't bad. The uh the part that was bad was just like that was that was probably a real eye-opener. Actually, is one of the real times like okay, I know I've got a problem, and if I don't fix it, this is where I'm gonna end up. But like this was a detox facility where they would just drag drag drunks off the street and throw them in there, like because the cops didn't know what to do with them and they had to detox them.

Host 49:53

So you went to like an actual place where they physically made you detox?

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah. Oh wow, yeah, dude. And you got a mat, like literally, not even a bed. You got a mat to sleep on on the floor. It was terrible, dude. I remember waking up in the middle of the night, these cops would haul these drunk guys in, they'd be throwing up next to me on their mat. Like, I'm like, this is really what it's come to, like, this is who I am. I'm like, this is crazy. So I just I literally never said a word to anybody. I sat on outside on the wall for three days reading, just reading the book, and like that was the big eye opener for me. It was I remember my dad dropping me off and he saw it, and he's like he was just mortified, but he didn't know what to do. He had to leave me there. Sure. So yeah, that was that was terrible.

Host 50:47

So you meet your wife in rehab. That's quite a story. How did you guys meet?

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah, so I think I was getting ready to leave. Like I'd noticed her, but you know, you're no no fraternization was allowed, so I kind of kept to those rules. But I'd probably have like I had like two weeks left. Funny story is her dad was in rehab at the time. So it was me, her dad, her, my wife. Really? Yeah, so her dad was in rehab with me. So her dad did you know that? Yeah, I knew that was her dad. But like, you know, the the the funny thing was, like, I had two weeks left, and he like drops this hint to me, like, hey, you know, you should go go talk to my daughter. But like, I had no clue. Like, but he so he kind of hooked us up. Yeah. So I'm like, all right. So she actually did you ever process that?

Host 51:43

I don't mean to interrupt, but like, you know, your wife was an addict, her dad was an addict, but her dad, you know, obviously he loves his daughter, he sees something in you in rehab, yeah, enough to be like, hey man, you should go talk to my daughter. That's pretty wild when I consider that, actually. Right. Like he really must have seen something in you, right? I mean, like, yeah, because he also knows the other side of that life. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

He did. I mean, and he tells my wife all the time, you know, he's the only boyfriend that uh he ever liked. She had a bunch of, you know, he he he'd give everybody a hard time it, but he's he's always liked me. So I don't know what he saw in me. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Host 52:23

So he he tells you, hey, you should go talk to my my daughter.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah. So she worked, she was, she was able to do work release. So she was working out of Starbucks just down the street. So I went over to Starbucks and started talking to her, and we started starting to get to know each other a little bit, and uh we really hit it off really quickly. And obviously, like we were kind of breaking the rules, fraternization wasn't wasn't allowed, but at that point, I'm like, I have two weeks left, I don't really care if I get kicked out.

Host 52:50

What was it that really attracted you to your wife? I mean, you guys were both in rehab. Was it the fact that she kind of, you know, you you felt you had somebody that maybe understood, you know, this this thing that you'd gone through in life, and you guys had that shared that, you know, that shared trauma, if you will, or or or what was it?

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Yeah, I think there was some of that, but I think what attracted me about her the most was she's just super confident, had a great personality. She was always laughing and smiling, just kind of had this carefree kind of she's definitely the glass half full type of personality, which I'm the complete opposite. And when I say we're complete opposite, we are complete opposite, but I think that's why I was so attracted to her. Yeah, yeah.

Host 53:35

You and I were talking kind of off camera though, that it's you know, like meeting somebody in in a rehab isn't always ideal. Will you kind of explain that?

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah, I mean it's definitely frowned upon because you guys got both have so much baggage that you're bringing into the marriage. And like I mentioned earlier, like we were still we were still young, and we both started using young. So we were both extremely immature, you know, going into a marriage. So it's just it's it it was very, very hard the the first five years of our marriage, you know. And the problem is you're both trying to work each other's program, you know what I mean? So she's on me all the time, like, hey, why aren't you going to meetings? Why aren't you doing this and that? You know what I mean? And because you you want you want to help the other person because we know the risks involved with with falling back into addiction, and then you're so hyper-focused on that your partner and making sure, like, hey, make sure you're doing what you're doing, and then it just just creates friction and doesn't work well.

Host 54:42

How did you know like you and her were were gonna get serious post-rehab and just started off as just like a rehab romance? But then like what because you said you you only had two weeks left when you met her. How how much time did she have left?

SPEAKER_00 54:55

She ended up staying there for a year. Oh wow. Yeah. So she stayed for another six months after I left. But I honestly I knew I knew two weeks later that I was gonna marry her.

Host 55:07

So when you got out of rehab, did you go back to Arizona or did you stay in California?

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yeah, I went back to Arizona and then we just had a long distance relationship. We'd talk on the phone. I'd fly out there probably every couple weeks to see her. But yeah, I knew right away. Like I knew I knew I was gonna marry her.

Host 55:24

Um, so so when you got out of, and this is something that you know I I wanted to touch on as well, because that we we talked about it in your podcast prep, but you you were working for your best friend's dad, and then like you're the bottom falls out of your life, you go to rehab, and then you know, you you come back and he he takes you back, you know, and and which I think is just a really awesome part of that story because there's a lot of you know, a lot of employers that just wouldn't do that. Let's speak to that a little bit if you would.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Yeah, I mean he's a he's a great guy, and I've thanked him multiple times for that. Because he's a big part of why I'm where I am today. And yeah, like I think part of that was just he, you know, I've I'd known him my whole life. So he he had that soft spot for me, and I think he knew who I was really deep down. Like he knew this wasn't this wasn't the person I I was, but yeah, he he let me go to two rehabs, he let me go to that one-month stint, kept my kept me on, and then let me go six months and kept me on. Got back and just started working like it was all normal.

Host 56:29

What's that like to have somebody believe in you like that?

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yeah, it it felt good. I mean, because I would tell people that story and they're like, I cannot believe that he would keep you on. And yeah, it felt good to to be supported like that, to have someone believe in you like that. And I I I can't thank him enough to this day.

Host 56:52

Beyond kind of like, you know, you being thankful for him, how does that frame your work or or frame your thoughts on, you know, dealing with with other people, whether it's and like maybe you had an employee or you know, somebody struggling or a friend? Because you know, we we've all known the people that struggle with the drugs and alcohol, but you know, having that person to believe in you, you know, and watch you fail again and then you know believe in you again, you know, how does that shape your view of of life as you've gotten older? Yeah. I guess what I'm really asking is like, you know, how did that shape your belief in the power of second chances?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Yeah. I think everybody deserves a second chance. I think deep down we're all good. We all mean well, we really do, but you know, at some point in our life we we can take a wrong turn, and you you know, you you may need help getting back. But there's a fine line, right? Between what I was talking about earlier, enabling somebody. I think second chances are fine, but when it happens like three, four, five, six times, then that's where you gotta be like, okay, you know, you gotta go figure it on, figure it out yourself now. But I think second chances, I love that. And like I said, I think people deep down mean well, they just need help sometimes.

Host 58:15

One of the reasons that I really enjoyed talking to you early when we were, you know, first kind of getting to know each other is, and I told you this, you know, on the phone, I'm a big believer in the trades, you know, electricians, plumbing, HVAC, you know, construction. That's kind of how this country's being built. It's not talked about a lot. Everybody talks about the lawyers and the doctors, yeah. But I mean, the backbone of blue-collar America is the trades, man, you know, the truck drivers, the linemen. Talk to me about what it's um like your experience as an electrician and kind of that foundation and and kind of what you learned and how you ended up carrying it on later on, kind of into your current career.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

Yeah. So yeah, started out, you know, doing demo work at a church in the middle of the summer and hated it. But somehow I stuck it out. And so about in year two, yeah, I started out making eight bucks an hour. It wasn't not a great living, but something kept me around. And then year two, I decided to go to trade school, so it was a four-year apprenticeship program.

Host 59:15

Can can you break down what what that is? Because I'm I'm not totally familiar and I I've got kids that I've yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Yeah, so that was to become a journeyman electrician. So it's a four-year school and you're learning the electrical trade. In order to graduate, you needed to get there, they were called OJT hours on job training. So you need to get 2,000 hours, I believe, to be able to graduate.

Host 59:40

Now, is this like a full-time college program where you're working at the same time or what what is that like?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Yeah, you're working, you're working full-time and then going to school at night. At the time, I would I would, you know, working 40 hours a week, and then I think it was school was two days a week for like four hours in the evening. Now they have programs where you just take like four to six weeks off and you knock it all out in one shot. But the nice thing about that is a lot of companies will pay for your schooling. As long as you're getting A's and Bs, they pay for your education, which I think I had my education paid for too. I maintained good grades, and that was the first time where I was in school. I'm like, I I enjoy this. Like, I'm actually invested in it. So I started that around year two, and then at that time, too, I started moving up in the company. I'm like, this is something I'm good at, this is something I enjoy. So I became a foreman early on. I was running running my own jobs, building small TI, stuff like that. Got through school. The cool thing about school, I'm at the end of the the four-year, they do a they do a competition. So it's basically all the skills you've learned, like a written test, pipe bending test, motor control skills, all that. And I actually ended up winning that, and then I went to nationals and I got to compete in nationals. I got ninth place in nationals, and I still kick myself for the to this day because I screwed something up on my board. I probably could have gotten in the top five. But I was like, man, I'm I'm good at this stuff. I'm like, I'm doing well. So just kept moving my way up, and then probably around year like five, four or five, they're like, hey, do we they they would always pull me off to do small jobs and were like, hey, we should probably start a service department. Is that something you'd be interested in? And I'm like, yeah, I'd I'd like that because most of that service call work was really challenging, unique problems, and I really liked that stuff. So I had the opportunity to start that service department. It was fun, just started just by myself in a van.

Host 1:01:45

So tell me the difference between what you were doing before with electrical and then working in the service department. So I guess initially you're doing new builds as I yeah, new builds or reconstruction.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

You know, I started out as just a helper, just doing whatever I was told. Started out digging ditches and then moved up, and then a lot of what we were doing was like TI, which was kind of like office buildings, stuff like that, basic, basic things. So yeah, either new construction or remodel. Service work was like you go to a plant and you know they lost power somewhere. So you got to figure out why they lost power or you're hooking up new equipment, you're in a lot of existing buildings. It was a lot more fun, always different, um, which I really enjoyed.

Host 1:02:28

Yeah, the challenge of kind of understanding how it works. I mean, electricity is complex, dude, and it'll kill you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Host 1:02:34

What are the uh what are the different levels of electricity? I mean, you mentioned journeyman. I I don't know, like, you know, you start off as a helper. Is journeyman the next level? That's where you get your test and become nationally certified, or or how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah. So you got like entry level, then you got apprentice, which would be in school, then you got journeyman, then you got foreman, then you got project manager slash super, and then you're talking about more like office positions and stuff like that.

Host 1:02:59

And then to achieve those different levels, I think apprentice, you got to get so many different hours before you can get your journeyman, which you also have to take a test. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Yeah, Arizona is actually the only state that doesn't require you to pass a test, which kind of hurt hurts Arizona a bit. But like if you can go through an apprenticeship program, you're considered a journeyman here and you get those 2,000 hours. And then, you know, pass the journeyman is a foreman, and the foreman is running running the projects. And like once you're at that, I mean, even entry level, you're making 18 to 22 bucks an hour. You know, journeyman's making up to like 40 bucks an hour today. And then, you know, foremen are making 50 plus an hour, depending on what size jobs they're running. And even PMs, like if the if you're running large projects, you can make up to 200 grand with bonuses.

Host 1:03:50

When you were leaving, because you know, you've only been out of the game for a couple years. Was was everybody always short-handed? Or I feel like there hasn't been as I think the trades are just now starting to make a comeback, but I felt like it was really was focusing on getting freaking, you know, social science degrees or whatever, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Like, yeah, I mean, college has always been pushed and it's been pushed too hard, in my opinion. You know, we there's been a lack of skilled trade. And that was one of the things we tried to focus on. We would go to campuses, high school campuses, college campuses, and kind of just promote the trades because you can make good money doing it, and there's a lot of opportunity, and there's there's there's a lack of workforce out there. So um we really tried to promote that and educate younger kids on how you can make a living in the trades.

Host 1:04:39

What I mean, if there's a data out here that's got a kid that may be interested, like what's the best route to start pursuing that? Is it does it start in high school, or you know, do you just go find electrical company, see if they'll hire you as a you know, as a day labor and then you work your way up? Or is is the is there a traditional path or is it different everywhere?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Or I would say start an apprenticeship program, find a company that offers the apprenticeship program and will pay for your schooling, because that's going to be the fastest way to learn. And then just yeah, do a little betting. It doesn't have to be electrical, right? I mean, there's all kinds of different trades out there, um, but I would say go through an some type of apprenticeship program that's paid for, and then you just get so many opportunities to learn. I think, you know, as long as you're willing to work hard and learn and take advice, there's a lot of opportunity to move up within the companies.

Host 1:05:28

Yeah, that's a great point. Kind of going back to, you know, coming out of rehab, you're you're you're dating your wife. What was it like navigating sobriety together? You've mentioned kind of a little bit of the struggles.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah, it was hard because like I went back home and I, you know, she wasn't there for six months. I I actually got out and I proposed to her fairly quickly after I got out of rehab. But then I started kind of slowly going back to my old lifestyle. Again. And you know, then we got married. I proposed, then we got married like six months later. And then it's like we were living together. And like it was it all happened quick. And I wasn't fully committed to sobriety still. I don't remember. I think I got back into opiates again. And she didn't know, but I think she could kind of sense what was going on. And then she was really just really trying to work my program for me, which I don't blame her. Like she sensed something was off. She sensed something was wrong. And it created a lot of tension. We were both young and immature. Her view on family was a lot different than my view on family. Like her mom would come into town and she'd she'd come in, but she wouldn't have a return flight home. So she'd just stay. I'm like, what's happening? Like this isn't normal. Like, and we at the time we were living in like just an apartment, two-bedroom apartment. So we were like on top of each other. There was some dysfunction in my wife's family too. So she kind of brought that into the marriage and dealing with some things in her family. So it was like just a perfect storm of just a bunch of crap going on early on.

Host 1:07:16

I think a lot of people need to hear this because, you know, unfortunately, relapse from addiction is common. What happened? Like, what do you think it was that that drove you to relapse? I mean, you've already been to one rehab, you've had a couple DUIs, you've now been to a six-month program. And I'm just, I I I kind of want to understand. I want the listeners to understand because I know there's guys out there that are struggling, and maybe your story can help speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

I think what happened was I just hadn't hit rock bottom yet. You know what I mean? And people talk about that all the time. Like, everybody has a rock bottom. Some people could be getting a DUI, that could be the rock bottom. Other people, they never hit rock bottom and they die. You know what I mean? My rock bottom was when my wife kicked me out of the house. And at that time we had an 18-month-old and a newborn. And I realized that I may lose my family if I don't don't get it together. And that's when just it switched to my brain. And at after that it was, it was easy.

Host 1:08:21

Again, yeah. I mean, you just said it, you know, your your daughter's pretty much two, your son's a newborn, your wife kicks you out. Walk us through that moment when she's like, dude, you're out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

Yeah. I mean, I was such an asshole. I mean, a lot of the a lot of the turmoil in our first five years of marriage was me. Like hiding a lot of things, using, I would be, I'd go in and out of sobriety, and just like the withdrawal that I would have to experience, like coming off opiates all the time. I was always sick, always hiding things, always sleeping in late. So it was it was terrible. And she'd find the pills every now and then, and she'd be like, What is what are you doing? Like, I'm gonna always make up excuses. And I think it was I actually got on this stuff called Suboxone, and it's like supposed to help you wean off opiate addiction. And if you if I don't, I I think it's called Subutex and Suboxone, I would never ever recommend getting on that stuff. It is worse than opiates. But anyways, I got on that, and that was right before my daughter was going to be born. I finally told my wife because I was hiding it from her, told her, and I ended up detoxing from that, and I was sick for two months. Like two months. I couldn't work for a month. I was so sick, and then another month just to get my brain right again. So she was dealing with I had she had to deal with that for me. My daughter was born, I was good for a little bit, kept using on and off. I remember then my son was born, and I remember being high when my son was born on opiates, like in the hospital. I'm like, this is pathetic. And then one morning she, I don't know, found some pills in my truck, and she's like, I don't know if she ever threatened to kick me out. She might have hinted at it before, but she found him and she's like, You you need to leave. You're you're not welcome here anymore. I'm like, and like, you know, at first I was like, okay, whatever. I'm like, I'll talk it through with her and it'll be good. She's like, no, pack up your stuff, you're leaving. And I remember the first night I stayed out with my brother, my middle brother. And then I don't know, I think they might have connected me. I don't know who connected me with this guy. His name's Mark Gill. And he specific he had a house and he helped guys like me just get back on their feet. I don't know if my parents hook me up with them or my brother, but he didn't charge me. He gave me a room downstairs for free. I lived in there for lived there for two months. But at that point, like I knew like I gotta get my stuff together. Like, dude, you've got a family, you've got kids. Like, what are you doing? Like, you are on the brink of losing all of that right now.

Host 1:11:22

Did that become super real to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Yeah. I don't know why all of a sudden it that became so real. Like, I don't know why it didn't become more real like any other time. But it was just like, yeah, once like I knew that she was serious, like, because I begged and begged to come back, like just you know, after a couple days, and like, you know, I would just call her begging her to come back, and she was like, No. And she she was like prepared to never have me come back. Like, she was like, we we've we've talked now later in life, and she's like, Yeah, I was at the point where like I was ready to face life without you, like if I had to, you know, so she was dead set on not dealing with it anymore, and I think I just knew that, and I didn't actually know I was gonna be able to come back. So after like a week or so, I accepted it and just put my head down. I did 90 meetings in 90 days.

Host 1:12:17

Talk to me about that. What was the goal or the thought process, or how how did that 90 meetings and 90 days come about?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:24

It's I I think it I I don't I don't know. I I got a sponsor and that's what he said I needed to do. Is this through AA? Yeah, through AA. I got a sponsor, and you know, that's what he had me do. I hated AA to be honest, but I did it. And I I really I don't think I've gone back to meetings since I did the 9090. And I knock on AA, I think it works for a lot of people. Like it's obvious, it's obviously obviously a proven method that worked, but it it didn't work for me or I didn't enjoy it. But yeah, so I did the 9090, had a sponsor, and I got really into working out too at that time, and I think that really helped as like an outlet for me to escape. Like if I felt that urge coming on, you know, working out really helped. So I was up at like 4:30 in the morning every day. I started getting in really good shape back then.

Host 1:13:18

So what was it about that particular incident? Obviously, you know, you're married, you're you're facing losing your marriage, you know, you kind of had an interesting childhood growing up, and now you know you your kids are young and you're kind of accepting the fact that you know you may or may not be able to get to be a part of their life. Or what do you think was the actual rock bottom? Because you you mentioned that earlier that you know sometimes people just have to hit rock bottom. What was Matt's rock bottom?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah, it was just I think it was the fact like I had like I couldn't I had no control at that point, and I like I if I wanted to go see my kids, I couldn't, you know. That was my rock bottom is just feeling like I lost all control, and like at some point, like if this continued, like I mean, I couldn't even imagine like having not being able to see my kids every day, you know what I mean? And then just too, my wife. I loved her. I loved her a lot, but I just I didn't show it, I didn't treat her like it. But just not being able to be with my wife every day, like I think just the loss of control, like I have no control over that part of my life anymore. That was my rock bottom.

Host 1:14:36

Talking about your faith. Was your faith a part of your life at that at that moment?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:41

Kind of. I mean, you know, I grew up in a Christian reformed church. I got pushed away just because of how just structured and legalistic I felt it was. But I always had that belief like, hey, I believe in Jesus, I believe he died on the cross for me, I believe he, you know, died for our sins. And I've accepted Christ at a young age into my heart. So I always had that structure and background. But, you know, when I was 18, I I stopped going to church. I didn't, you know, I had no relationship with Jesus. I wouldn't pray, I wouldn't read my Bible, anything like that. That didn't come back around until we got married. Probably, you know, when I got back in the house, I'm like, okay, we need to, we need to, I need to, you know, form a better family nucleus and really be a leader. So we started, we found a church. It was a small church at the time, and we made a great church community. It was had a lot of friends.

Host 1:15:42

And did that help you? I mean, did they know your struggles, or was that still something very private?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:47

Some of them did. The pastor was a recovering gambling addict, so he was kind of a mentor to me. Cause he we I would share stories and we he I could relate to him. So he understood, like, and that I think I really appreciated that because like you never saw that. Like when I was growing up, like everybody seemed perfect, right? You gotta walk this perfect path, and then we get to this church. He was very open about his past and how he was a recovering gambling addict and how he screwed up. And I thought that was really refreshing. So yeah, I never lost my faith, but I walked away and then but was able to come back.

Host 1:16:23

Yeah, that's awesome to hear that you connected with a pastor that you know had struggled. There's this idea sometimes in all churches, and I want to make it clear I'm not anti-church, but you know, the church can be some of the most judgmental people on the planet. Yeah. And then you get to know some of the people that that are super judgmental, and you know, you figure out real quick that they're no better than you, that you know, they struggle with everything. So that's that's cool that you were able to find, you know, some help in that. Couple couple things I wanted to ask about too. You did 90 meetings and 90 days, and I kind of want to talk about AA. You said you hated it, and and I'd I'd love to know why. And and again, man, we're not disparaging AA. You've already said that it does work for some people, but you know, to your point, I I want to talk about kind of why you didn't like it and then kind of what people should know about going to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:08

Yeah, I didn't like it because and I'm sure there's better places out there, but everyone I went to was some run-down hole in the wall, shitty AA spot with a bunch of people smoking outside. And honestly, like they all seemed unhappy to me. All of them. Not I mean, not all of them, most of them seemed very unhappy, and they were just showing up to check the box because that's what they felt they needed to do to stay sober. You know, it's the same story over and over and over again. Like, and I'm like, are these these people don't seem like they're excelling in life. They've just like they're just stuck. They've accepted, hey, I'm an alcoholic and I've got to show up here every day to stay sober. And I didn't like that. Like it, I didn't feel like any future. Like these people felt like, and I'm sure there are people, but you know, I'd go to quite a bit different, quite a few different meeting spots around town, and it's the same vibe every time. Now, some people just gotta do that, right? To stay sober. And if that's what you have to do, that's what you have to do. For me, that that wasn't what I wanted.

Host 1:18:20

For those who don't connect with AA, what what else has worked for you? I mean, you mentioned working out. Is there I mean, obviously, you've we're we'll talk about your you know, your sobriety journey and all that stuff here in a minute, but like what what are some of the things that's that's helped you personally? And maybe even your wife. I know she's not here to speak for herself, but obviously, I mean she she was an addict as well, and she seemed to stay on the course.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

So Yeah, my wife did meetings for a long time. There those worked for her. She had a sponsor for a long time. I don't know what works for her today. It's a good question, but she probably did for five, seven years. She stuck with meetings. For me, it was working out. That was my that was my number one for sure. And setting challenges and goals for myself that I knew would be hard to reach, that really, really helped. But yeah, working out was my number one outlet. But I also think, I don't know, maybe maybe I'm a little bit unique where I think mentally I'm able to somehow, when I flip a switch in my brain, I'm able to flip it. And I'm like, okay, like this is what I'm gonna do, and there's no stopping me at this point. So I was a little bit unique in that aspect where maybe I probably was walking a fine line where I should have been going to AA, where most people should, and but I was able to manage that and then maintain that by working out.

Host 1:19:49

You kind of I think you told me you were working out sometimes like two to three hours in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:53

Yeah.

Host 1:19:54

What was what was driving that? Do you think it was just to like get the demons out or to really exhaust yourself mentally? Were you running from something in your head or just trying to understand and also maybe you know give somebody a roadmap out there of of of why it worked for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:13

I don't know what was driving that. I mean, I was seeing a lot of results, so I mean, a lot of it was results driven. Ever since I was a kid, I loved to challenge myself. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, I'd go to my grandparents' farm in Iowa and they'd have this hog house and it'd be full of full of manure. And like I would challenge myself, I gotta empty this whole hog house while I'm here. Like as a kid, I'm like, I I love to challenge myself doing things like that. So I love to challenge myself to the extreme working out and doing that, and it kind of I mean created a dopamine rush similar to drugs and alcohol, obviously, not the same effect, and it didn't last as long. But I think I chased a little bit of that too with with the working out, and at some point it became a little bit unhealthy uh working out as much as I did, but it's what got me through, and I did that for like three years, and then I kind of eventually kind of burnt out and had to take a little bit of a break. But at that point, I was kind of through that initial really hard phase of my life of getting through that sobriety.

Host 1:21:23

So when you so you do the 90 meetings in 90 days, and you talk your wife, what was kind of like the decision point where she said, Hey, you can come back home. Did was the change in you noticeable or yeah, I didn't ask her.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:37

I and she just eventually said, Okay, yeah, I'm ready for you to come home. So I think she saw the change. She, you know, we didn't, I don't remember how much we were talking. We were not talking a lot. We would I remember we did go out on a date one time, but she just saw the changes I was making and she knew I was serious, and she eventually just said, All right, let you, I'm ready for you to come home.

Host 1:22:00

What kept you guys together? I mean, it would have been easy for both of you to walk away and do the whole child custody thing. Yeah, and I think that's very common in today, day and age, where people just quit, right? Like instead of do the work and and and put the work in, you know, people just quit or go find somewhere else or go cheat or whatever. Like, what do you think it was that helped keep you guys together?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:23

Well, growing up in the Christian Reformed Church, like divorce was never an option, ever, unless there's like infidelity. So that was kind of ingrained in me. Like, I think that's one good thing. Like, as a kid, I mean, I was surrounded by whole families. Like, I didn't divorce wasn't really a thing. I was never around it, and just always assumed it was never an option. Like, once you're married, you were married. Now, I don't necessarily agree with that today. Like, I think there's certain circumstances where, you know, it's better to separate, but I still feel like, you know, marriage is hard. It's really, really hard. And people just want to go the easy route and give up. But there's such a reward if you stick through it. But it's never marriage is not easy, man. Like, even we've been married for 17 years now, and it's great, but we still have a lot of struggles that we have to you have to be intentional every day with your partner. But it's yeah, it's just sad that people just give up so quickly today. So that it was just never an option in my in my mind.

Host 1:23:33

So that uh to that dude out there that's listening to this, or maybe even that that chick, man, that's you know been married for a while and ready to hang it up. What do you tell them, man? And and you know, why is it worth fighting for?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

Yeah, it's so rewarding. I mean, to have you know your your wife, your husband be your best friend. And that's how I feel about my wife today. But you have to be intentional every day and you have to be selfless. It our marriage didn't start getting better until I started becoming selfless. And I'm I'm far from perfect. Like, I I'm not completely selfless, but like at some point, I'm like, stop caring so much about what you want and focus on what she needs. And then when I started focusing on what she needed, everything started getting better. So I would say be completely selfless and see what happens, and it it will make a big difference. Dude, that's such great advice.

Host 1:24:28

I could talk about that for another 30 hours. What do you, I mean, if you could go back into that time, you know, I remember you told me the first couple years are rough. Obviously, you're you know, you're a recovering addict, you go back, you know, you guys get married. And so I I know that you guys kind of struggled. What do you think the turning point was? I mean, obviously, we've talked about your personal turning point and kind of when you made the decision to get sober, but what do you think the turning point was in your marriage where you're just like, hey man, we're gonna, I'm gonna get better, do better, be better? What what what was that? And it may not just be like one thing. There may not have been like this epiphany moment, but you know, there's a lot of guys out there struggling at home, and and anytime we can try to talk about that and you know lift up families, I'm I'm all about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:11

Yeah, I don't know if there's one turning point. I I do remember like early on in our marriage, like like I said, my wife and I are complete opposites. I'm very, very structured, clean, organized. I like things in certain spots all the time. My wife is complete opposite. And I would harp and harp and complain and complain about it all the time. Like I would I'd run her down, dude. Like I would just burn her out. And at some point, I'm like, what are you doing, dude? Like, she's not this is not who she is. Stop trying to change her. She's not gonna change, she's not doing this to you to piss you off. Like, you know, so like I slowly started just being like, dude, like just accept it. Like, she's not doing it on purpose. And I I slowly started getting more of that mentality to becoming more selfless, and I think that's just when I when I slowly started making the shift. I mean, I really had to like give myself a pep talk because it was hard, like, because I I felt like my needs weren't being met. And I'm like, well, if my needs aren't being met, why should I meet her needs? But I remember sitting outside one day and I was praying about it, and I'm like, you know what? I just gotta stop being a bitch, man, and love my wife, and like and it just shifted in me. And you know, I I'm like far from the perfect husband, but um I don't think uh none of us are perfect, probably.

Host 1:26:46

Yeah, if there's the perfect husband out there, please uh leave us a YouTube comment and tell us what you did so we can all be perfect. But yeah, I think marriage is a struggle, right? And I think like it's the struggle that defines the relationship, you know. I would say most a lot of couples, right, that are that are close have been through some kind of struggle or struggles. Like, you know, my my wife and I are pretty close, but we've we've been we've been through it, you know, yeah on a lot of different fronts. So it's cool to hear somebody open and honest talk about you know the marriage and like social media, right? Like go on anybody's social media page and it's all the fun pictures and all the great things they do. Like nobody posts their man, my wife's a piece of crap, we just got a massive argument. You know what I mean? Like nobody puts that stuff. So like you know, this there's this societal thing where you know social media becomes everybody's kind of billboard, but it's all it's not really real, you know, it's not fake. Not saying there's not good couples out there, but you know, it's it it's not always the total honest truth. So it's it's a refreshing conversation to hear somebody talk about like, you know, hey, this is what we went through, and this is kind of what I had to do, you know, pretty much, you know, tell myself, you know, not be a bitch and and really put the marriage forward. And I think that's you know, I I think dudes, we overcomplicate that, right? Like we. We think like there's you know, women are so complicated, I'll never figure them out. And look, man, I'm not saying women aren't complicated for one second, but you know, sometimes you gotta die to yourself to to make the the partnership and the unity better. And I think that's that's a missing part of the conversation with men. We want to really, or a lot of men want to really blame the woman. My my wife doesn't do this, my wife doesn't do that. And it's like, dude, what do you do? What do you not do? I've heard you bitch about your ride for an hour. I haven't heard you say one thing about how what you could be better and how you could do better. So I I think I I think that's that's cool to just hear you you talk about what's changed through the years or kind of how do you communicate different now that you did back then that really helps?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:44

Yeah, a lot has changed. I mean, for a little bit, we went to I mean, we've been off and on through marriage counseling, actually. I think that's something that's pretty beneficial, whether you're like struggling with something or not. I think marriage counseling's good, it's refreshing. Um, you don't have to be on the brink of divorce to go to marriage counseling.

Host 1:29:02

Great point.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:03

So I'd recommend that. Early on, like my wife really contributes this to really helping our marriages. We were taught how to argue respectfully because we used to blow up at each other, dude. Like she she could get she she had a temper, man, and it was not constructive, like nothing good came out of that. Now, not to say we don't yell at each other like today, but we are much more respectful. She tends to like I I struggle with sometimes, but when she's too overwhelmed and we're in an argument, she wants to walk away and cool down for a little bit. And that generally I try and respect that. Sometimes I push and want to get it resolved right away. That's my personality, but you know, if if you need space, we try to give you space. But you know, don't typically when you start arguing, you you go back and dig step up from the past that has nothing to do with what you're talking about is completely irrelevant. So, you know, like because when you're in that middle of an argument, you're trying to win, and then you start taking shots at them for no reason, and it's just not constructive. So just trying to be respectful and and using words like you always or you never is never good for an argument. So try to avoid those type of words, and just becoming more respectful as a husband and leader, you know. You know, my wife deserves that, and I try to be be aware of that.

Host 1:30:31

Great, great words to live by, dude. Thanks for thanks for talking about that. So let's kind of go back into kind of your electrical career and then we'll kind of pinnacle up and how you you turn. So I mean, you you told the story of you know, you you started at ground zero at this company for the most part. You know, you're digging ditches and then you're you know, you're running the service department, and I know you continue to move up to move up the ladder. When was it that you I mean, obviously we're gonna talk about your mental health crisis that you had in 2019, but up until that point, you know, you you'd been with this company a while. I mean, were you guys pretty financially stable?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:04

Yeah. Yeah. When I started, it's funny, just the thought that popped into my head. Like, money does not buy happiness. It can make things easier, but like the more money I've made in my life, the more problems I have. So, because I'm thinking about this, like my wife was a barista at Starbucks. I was making eight bucks an hour. We were happy, dude. Like, so keep that in mind. Don't chase money. But yeah, we kept excelling through my career, started the service department, got that up and running, started a few different divisions. At that point, I was already starting to get burnt out. I love I honestly loved being in the field. I liked working with my hands and building things and seeing a product from start to finish. Once I got in the office and was out, like ultimately that was always my goal. That's what I wanted. But then once I got it, I missed, I missed being out in the field. But I started making more money. There's no way I could go back in the field and make the same amount of money anymore. But I'm like, well, I was like either gonna quit or start my own company. So I had a conversation at that time. My buddy's dad, I mean my my buddy, who was my the my best friend's dad.

Host 1:32:22

What am I what am I telling? Foggy was saying, you're the the guy who owned the company, his son. His son was your best friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:28

There we go.

Host 1:32:28

Yeah, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:30

He's he was uh, I think VP at the time, and I I just had a conversation with him. I'm like, dude, I need to I need to move on. I said, because I was pretty sure I was gonna start my own company at that time. I'm like, something's just not sitting with me right. I'm not I'm not enjoying it. I don't know what it was, but I'm like, maybe a change is gonna help. Change is gonna help. Were you stuck in an office like all day, every day? Yeah, I mean, I was going out, like going out to job sites, getting quotes or you know, laying guys out, but like there was a lot of stress. There, I put a lot of pressure on myself to continue to grow the company, the the department every year. I put a lot of unnecessary pressure on myself. So that was really weighing on me. And I'm like, well, I'm just gonna do my own thing then. So I had that conversation with him, and he's like, Well, what if we offer you equity in the company for you to stick around? I'm like, okay, that might be worth it. So I thought about it for a bit, and then we came to an agreement. They gave me equity in the company, it was a great deal. And so that at that time, his dad, we bought him out, and then we started a new entity, and then me, him, and his brother took ownership of the company.

Host 1:33:47

What did that feel like? I mean, I know initially you left, but did you ever process, man? Like, I started digging ditches for this company, and now, you know, I'm an equitable owner. That's yeah, it's pretty unique.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:00

Yeah, and it goes to show, like, sure, I had some, you know, like he he kept me around. So I I had some breaks for sure. But it also goes to show like everybody wants immediate results. I was there for like, you know, 15 years before I like really had made it, you know what I mean? But now you're there for six months and you're like, oh, I don't get a raise or like I didn't like what you know what this happened here or this, you know, and people leave. Like they always think it's uh think it's butterflies and rainbows, and everything's gonna be perfect. And it just goes to show that you know, dedication, hard work, you know, pays off.

Host 1:34:38

Yeah. Yeah, especially in a in a society where we want everything right now, right now, right now. Why I'm not, why I'm not, why haven't I made a million dollars right now? It's like, bro, if it was easy, everybody'd be a millionaire. Yeah. No, you and I were talking yesterday at lunch about being small business owners and how people like, you know, you get a little bit of success and you know, people just want to ride your coattails, but they don't realize the sleepless nights and you know, the the stress and you know, the the hours in the office trying to figure out the blueprint for whatever it is you're designing, whether it's a podcast or a cold plunge or whatever, man. And you know, I I think you know, we both have kind of brought that, that's what we were talking about at lunch anyway, just that whole, just that grit, right? That that in the trenches, if you will, you know, they keep grinding like you're not gonna give up and and it's not easy. You know, I I use that the Elon Musk thing all the time. You know, I think right before Tesla took off, Tesla was about to go out of business. I think they were hours um from going out of business. And then I don't I don't know the story per se, but I think Elon got a call in they got a grant, and it was enough to keep the company going and and now look at it. Yeah, and I think through, you know, just to your point, you know, that we live in this society now, everybody wants something for free and it's the easy way, and that's just that's not how it's not that's not reality, man. The struggle is what makes people yeah. So you get to that level in the company, but but you're you know, you're just what was it that you you weren't happy or or what was it? Was it you just didn't feel fulfilled, or you you wanted more out of life, or what was that driving thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:09

I definitely wasn't fulfilled, which was okay. I mean, you don't have to have a job that checks all the boxes, but I think I was it wasn't fulfilling, it was extremely stressful, and I always kind of wanted something of truly my own, so something that I could say, I I started this, like this is mine, and I didn't have any of those. And then just the pressure I put on myself to continue to grow, like if we'd have a slowdown, I would I'd kind of view myself as a failure, like I'm not doing a good enough job. So I put such an immense amount of pressure on myself. So I was like, I wanted to figure out a way to escape that. I hated the feeling.

Host 1:36:50

Were you talking with the other guys that own the company? Was I mean, was it something you were putting on yourself, or was it something they were putting on you, or where was that?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:58

No, it was not put on me at all. My buddy, who now we took over the company, he's now the president. I'm VP of operations. We had a lot of conversations around it. He knew he knew how unhappy it was, and like I kind of put him in a bad position. Like it was tough, I'm sure it was tough for him because we'd grown up together. You typically wouldn't have these type of conversations with an employee, right? But he's one of my best friends. So we had a lot of open conversations uh with him and probably overstepped my boundaries, like how a typical owner relationship would be. But he was always there for me. But at some point he was kind of like, What are you gonna do, dude? Like I I can't help you anymore. And then it was so I'd been in I'd been uh equity partner for probably three years at that point, and then I finally just went to him and like, dude, I'm I gotta step down, I'm done. Like I was like, I had gone to the doctor, I was just under such an immense amount of stress. I was like pre-diabetic level, my kidneys were having issues. I'm like, and I think it's all due to stress, so I'm like, I gotta, I gotta be done. But it wasn't anything the company ever put on me, he ever put on me. It was all it was all stuff I put on myself. So we came to an agreement. I sold my equity back to him, and then we came to an agreement for the next two years, I'd stay on salary and I'd be an estimator. So bid bid projects, price projects. And I'm like, okay. And then I have two years to kind of figure out what I want to do, you know. But I quickly realized like I don't like working for people. Like I mean the I was pretty much self-employed, even at K2, the electrical company, for a long time. Like for 10 years, I was kind of just doing my own thing. I'd report to him, but he'd let me do my own thing. Like, you know, I didn't have any set business hours I'm showing, you know, working hours that I'm showing up. So like I quickly realized, okay, step down. Now I gotta be on the clock, working a specific amount of hours, have somebody tell me what to do. I'm like, I don't like this.

Host 1:39:24

How did you how were you dealing with your sobriety? Because you've been sober for a while now. How how how were you dealing with your sobriety? Was it nice to be sober, or was that like a monster always hanging over your head? Or what what kept you on the path? Because again, man, you you said you know AA wasn't really for you, and and you know, we talked a little bit about working out, but how did you how did you stay on that sobriety path?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:49

I liked waking up sober. I mean just dude, the we didn't talk about this much, but the amount of times I detoxed and when I would detox, I'd get severely depressed, severely depressed and sick, and then just the mornings waking up hung over, massive headaches, can't think, like there was no part of me that wanted that anymore. Like the thought of detoxing again was like I just can't do it. So it it I did feel a little bit sorry for myself early on because like especially in the construction industry, all these guys are like blue-collar guys, and like it's rough and tough drinking, or like you're going to these you're always going to these events where everybody's drinking. So I did feel a little bit sorry for myself, like, oh poor me, I'm not I'm not able to have any fun. But that that didn't last too long, and then never even was an issue for me.

Host 1:40:52

Does it get easier with time? I guess is my my thought process and my my question. You know, I would imagine the initial, you know, the detox is miserable, and then like you know, you start getting as the the days turn to weeks, weeks turn to months. Does it get better? Is it something you're always struggling with?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:08

That's a good question, man. I think the urge definitely gets better, that like initial pull. But I still have thoughts in my head. Like when I get stressed, I'm like, oh, it'd be nice to pop a painkiller right now. Like that pops in my head regularly. Now, that's just a thought. Like nothing like really pulls me to that. But I mean, dude, I know people that have been sober for 20, 30 years, and they and then they end up going back out and they die. Like, so I don't think it's ever gonna leave, you know? Yeah, but I think that that raw urge and that feeling, that kind of Jonesy feeling, that definitely gets easier. But I don't think it ever leaves your head because you know you still remember that first time and how good it felt, you know, and how it could take away all my problems for a few hours.

Host 1:42:00

And I know like during the course of this conversation, there's been times where like, man, I really like the way that felt, but I I know, you know, I know where you're at now, and I know like at no point are you in your are you glamorizing like drug use, and you know, it anybody who's listened to the story realizes kind of what the washing machine that you put yourself in your life, yeah, you know, for that small feeling. So I'm sure there's gotta be a part of you where you're like, I mean, you know, and I we've talked about it, like, you know, yeah, it'd be nice to take this pill, but you know what happens, yeah, once you start the the darkness and invite the devil back in, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:32

Oh yeah, and it's so easy, yeah because once you start, like I just have a I have an addictive personality, I know that. So I I I latch on to things easy, but yeah, you know, people think a lot of people, you know, they've been sober for 15, 20 years and they decide to start drinking again. Oh, I can handle it. You know what I mean? Well, you can handle it for maybe a month, but next thing you know, it turns into an every night thing, and then you can't, I mean, just spirals out of control. So you think you can handle it, but there's why risk it? Like my life, what's wrong with my life right now? Nothing. So why would I need to go back?

Host 1:43:07

There's I mean, there's just for like a moment fix, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:11

So there's why why would I risk that? Yeah, that's a great point.

Host 1:43:14

Uh before we dive into this next chapter, which I'm super excited to talk about. Uh, let's take a quick break. Kind of coming back from the break, man. We had some come out, some good topics off off camera, but it it's 2019. You've been sober for years, you're a partner in a pretty successful electrical company, you've got your your family going for you. You know, by all purposes, things things should be going pretty good, but they weren't. What what was happening?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:49

Yeah, it's a good question. I was I wasn't happy. You know, I became a partner, things didn't change. Like I'm like, you know, I thought I'd be happier having kind of a piece of you know the company and feeling like more ownership in it. That didn't change. I mean, our marriage was was good, the kids were good, but just I think, you know, I was also dealing with stuff from when I was younger that I I'd never dealt with, some underlying issues and trauma that I never dealt with. And I think that eventually kind of started to boil up. But yeah, we were getting ready. My wife and I would take like a trip every year, just the two of us with no kids. Then we were getting ready to go to Ecuador for a trip. And leading up to that trip, oh, uh I think one thing that just kind of just set it off was I was real dealing with some really bad TMJ pain. Like I clenched my teeth really bad at night. So I'm waking up with neck pain, headaches. So I went and saw this guy, gave me this, you know, like $5,000 mouth guard that's supposed to stop it all. And then he wanted to put me on like these muscle relaxers, gabapentin. Like he gave me this cocktail of stuff, which one I was hesitant about. I didn't take the muscle relaxer. I had him give me a non-narcotic, but then gabapentin, all this stuff, a steroid, and I started taking it. I'm like, are you sure this is okay to take all the same time? He's like, Oh yeah, like they don't, this dude doesn't know. None of these doctors are crazy, in my opinion. But anyways, I started taking it. And a few days leading up to the trip before we left, I just I wasn't feeling right. Like, I I started feeling depressed. I started getting some anxiety, and I'm like, man, I haven't felt this way in a long time. Like, I used to get that, you know, coming off drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. I started not sleeping well. I was waking up in the middle of the night, and then we left to go on the trip. And I was on, I was sitting there waiting to get on the plane. I'm like, dude, I am off. I feel, I feel weird. And then we got on the plane, we were flying to Florida, then Florida to Ecuador, and I had a panic attack on the plane. I don't know what caused it. I think, like I said, just a combination of those meds this guy put me on, underlying issues that I've never dealt with, just stress at work. I didn't know how to deal with any of it. And then yeah, I'd never had a panic attack before.

Host 1:46:20

What does a panic attack feel like? I've heard people talk about it. I don't really know, I've never heard it articulated.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:26

To me, I think it's different for everybody, but for me is it's just this like fear, like this just insane fear, but I don't know what I was afraid of. Like this, this just fear that I had, and then I was just really emotional, but just panic and fear that I couldn't explain. I I didn't have anything in particular I was scared of, or but I just felt like something bad was happening, and I didn't know what was happening, and I was really emotional. I literally cried the entire flight from Phoenix to Florida.

Host 1:46:59

Is that way out of your norm?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:00

Yeah. I mean, I never cry. So I like I was on the flight, like my heart was beating like out of my chest. Like I had no idea what was going on. I was crying. I was telling my wife, I'm like, what? Something's going on. Like, I don't know what's going on. Wow. So I mean, I'd never had a panic attack before, so I didn't really know what it was. I'm like, all right, well, we got off the plane, got to Florida. We ended up missing our flight to Ecuador. So then we had to get on a later flight. So then we we didn't get into Ecuador till like one in the morning. So I'm like, well, I just need a good night's sleep and I'll be good. Like, everything will reset, I'll get back to normal. I got we got to the hotel, I couldn't sleep that night. So then we got up the next day to go to the Amazon, and we took this little puddle puddle jumper plane, then we took this four-hour boat ride, then a canoe ride, then a hike, and then we're in the middle of the Amazon jungle, and I'm like mentally, I'm already shook. Like I'm still having panic attacks. I have this underlying like just fear and it was like a doom? Yeah, a doom. Like, and I don't know what, like nothing could explain it. And then, you know, lack of sleep is just compounding everything. And then after the anxiety kind of the the panic attacks kind of passed, then the depression hit. Then I was just severely depressed, man. And you know, it's hard to explain. Like anybody who hasn't experienced depression, is it's hard to explain what depression really feels like, but like you lose all sense of joy, you lose any sense of like any sense of joy you got out of anything. I mean, you see no light at the end of the tunnel. So that kind of the panic passed, and then it just turned into depression. Well, we got to the Amazon, we're in the middle of the this Amazon rainforest in an eco-lodge. And when I'm talking eco-lodge, like, you know, mesh sides to the to the the hut you're staying in, no AC, stuff like that. So like I'm trying to sleep, and all I hear is freaking bugs and animals all night long. Barely got any sleep, but I couldn't leave because we were like stuck, like we were remote, so they're like, there's nothing we can do until they come back and pick us up, which was gonna be like in four days. I couldn't even get sleeping pills, like we were so remote. Like I couldn't even get earplugs. I'm like, Do you guys have earplugs here? No, they didn't have anything. I remember they had this doctor that did show up. He rose up on this canoe, dude, and this indigenous doctor, and he had a blood pressure pill. And he gave me, he gave it to me, he said it'll work. And actually, that night I did sleep. I I got some sleep that night. So I woke up that morning feeling a little bit better. That was the day we were going back to the city, and then we were supposed to go to another place in Ecuador, but then Oh dude, the the boat we lost one of the engines in the boat, so it took twice as long to get back to town. And then there was a huge storm, so we couldn't take the plane. So we had to take a bus ride through the Andes Mountains for like six hours while it was raining. Like in the in the rain, like we think uh this guy's flying through the Andes Mountains, dude. So my anxiety just skyrocketed, which isn't normal for me, but I was already so fragile, like it just set me off on a whole nother path. We were supposed to go to this place called Mashby Lodge, and at the time my wife was a travel agent, so we were getting all these awesome deals on these places. Mashby Lodge was like one of the top 10 national geographic spots to go to, but it's a bummer we didn't make it because I'm like, I gotta go home. I can't do it. But so we cut our trip short, went home, and like I'll just get home and I'll be I'll be good. Like it'll just I'll just reset, just get back to normal things again, and that was just far from what happened. Like it just I got home, couldn't sleep, and just night after night after night of barely getting any sleep, and just the depression and insomnia and just anxiety after the nights of not being able to sleep was just so bad, and I couldn't figure it out. You know, after a few months, I decided I was so jaded against medication from what that guy did to me because I I kind of blamed him. I was like, I'm never touching medication again.

Host 1:51:35

Well, you say guy, which guy you're referring to?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:37

The TMJ guy that put me on like the gatapentin, the non-narcotic muscle relaxer, all that. But and I hadn't been on an antidepressant in years, a long time. But I'm like, I gotta do something. Like I'm almost non-functional at this point. So, you know, they started. The problem is like the doctors don't know it's gonna work for you. There's so many different U Meds, man. Yeah, you're a guinea pig. And you know, the first like two or three medications they put me on made it worse. Like, I remember like I think they put me on Lexapro for a while, and I just could feel like this electric shock running through my body, dude. I remember trying to lay in bed two in the morning, just feeling this surge run through my body, and it made it made a lot of things worse. And I haven't even I don't even know if I told you about this, but I ended up going to a psych ward because I I had been up for a few days, they put me on this new medication, nothing was working, and I got up that morning and I'm like I don't I never was gonna act anything out, but there's definitely suicidal ideations.

Host 1:52:52

Like I could see myself ending it, like and that's the number one side effect. I mean, if you read the label for any of those SSRIs, suicidal suicidal ideation is part of all of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:06

Yeah.

Host 1:53:07

So it's I mean, it's wild, that's not shocking to me, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:11

So I'm just like, I'm sitting there, like imagining how it could happen, right? And it scared me. Would I ever do it? No, there's no way I would. But just the thought of like, yeah, this is how you could do it, and it ended all. And it would take away all this pain that I've been dealing with. Like, it seemed like a good, good option, you know what I mean? So I told my wife about it. She called a couple people, and this one person recommended this dude. It was straight up psych ward, man. And but she painted it as this rosy picture of like, oh, they're gonna be there to help you. It's a great place to go and recover.

Host 1:53:51

Just put this jacket on real quick.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:53

Yeah, yeah. And we're like, okay, yeah, maybe that's where I need to go. Just get some help, right? So you they they bring you in and they do your intake. And if you admit that you thought about suicide, you're locked up. They will not let you leave. By law, they can keep you. I didn't know that, dude. That was not. I still regret it to this day. I wish I wouldn't have said it, because that was not the place for me to be. It was straight up psych ward. People in there were not healthy people, and it scared the crap out of me.

Host 1:54:28

How long were you stuck there?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:29

Five days.

Host 1:54:30

Like in a padded room type thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:54:32

No, it was like it was a facility, you shared a room with people, but you were locked, locked in. Like you had to go through multiple doors to get out. You couldn't go outside. You know, you weren't allowed to have any like shoelaces or anything, any personal belongings, anything like that. And then they just pumped you full of medication. Like, that's all they did. They didn't help you. I'm like, I'm trying to tell them, like, this is not where I should be. Like, I need to be home. I don't want to take any more medication. And they're trying to tell me, well, you know, you wanted to kill yourself, so we need to get you better before you can.

Host 1:55:05

Yeah, so let me give you more medication.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:06

Yeah. So I just played along. Like, I was honestly, I was sitting there laying in bed. I'm like, I'm about to lose my mind. Like I'm about to go crazy. Like, but I'm like, if I do that, they're gonna keep you here even longer. So I just played along, played nice. But I mean, man, the people that I was in there with, and it they were, I'm like, this is not who I am. Like, I'm not like it was it was a oh I guess it was weird, man. Yeah, I'm trying to like people that were really struggling. Like, dude, I was laying next to this guy in bed telling me that he was levitating all night. Like, like those are the type of like this one lady had schizophrenia. She's constantly walking up and down the halls talking to herself. She tried to take take a chair and break through the window. I'm like, I was scared, dude. I'm like, I was scared being in there. I'm like, so I just played long and got out of there as quickly as I could and you know, said I was all good. Got out of there, finally got on a medication that actually started making me feel better, but the side effects were so bad, I couldn't stay on it, so I had to get off of it. And you know, I tried I tried doing morning sunlight, I tried working out, I tried walking every day, and all those stuff are stuff is good, it's great for mental health, but I was in such a dark hole, like I needed something more to kind of snap me out of it. And I was talking to my brother Scott, and he's like, Hey, have you ever heard of this guy called Wim Hof? And he's this extreme Dutch athlete that does breath work and cold exposure. And from what I know, he is his wife had committed suicide, and he was in a really dark place, and he found that he jumped in cold water and it snapped him out of that depressive state that he was in. So I'm like, huh, there. I'm I mean, I started doing the breath work.

Host 1:57:00

Breath work made me feel really good, but it didn't, it didn't it made me when you when you say breath work, what were you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:57:07

All right, so look up Winhop Wim Hof and look up breath work. Like if you want a euphoric, like natural free high, do this.

Host 1:57:17

Oh, so it was it was the Wim Hof's breath work. Yeah, Wim Hof breath work, yeah. Yeah, that's uh I've I've done it a couple times. You can should almost make yourself pass out.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:26

Yeah, it's it's in it was great, but it didn't didn't cure that that uh mental health issue I was having. But then started look reading a lot up about cold exposure and what he did. So at the time it was like October 2019. So my pool is starting to cool off. So I jump on my pool, but it wasn't that cold. But I'm like, there might be something to this. I tried cryotherapy, and I'm like, it made me feel a little bit better. It just gave me this energy boost and it gave me some temporary relief. I'm like, I need to I need to pursue this more. So I found a wellness center on the other side of town, probably one of the only places at the time that that had cold plunges, and I went and did a cold plunge, and it the the I did cold plunge, sauna, cold plunge, ended on a cold plunge. Driving home that night completely changed. My brain had reset that dark cloud that was hovering over me was gone. I could see, like I could see my future again. Like I had my sense of humor came back, like it was amazing how quickly it just reset my brain.

Host 1:58:39

What how cold? How long and how long are in the sauna?

SPEAKER_00 1:58:43

Yeah, I think the first one I did was like 38 degrees, and then I did the I did that for 90 seconds, then I did the sauna for 20 minutes, and then I did another one in 45 degrees for like another 90 seconds. That was it.

Host 1:59:01

And then from then on out, you were hooked.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:03

I was hooked, dude. I joined the wellness center, I would drive there every single morning and do my cold plunge sauna. They did had compression therapy and all that too. So I'd spend like an hour and a half there every day, then go to work, and then in the evenings I'd go in my pool. So it had started cooling off quite a bit by then. So I was doing it twice a day. But I would drive, you know, 35, 40 minutes out of my way every morning just to cold plunge. But I was a firm believer, I was telling everybody I knew about it, all my buddies, and that time 2019, it wasn't popular like it is today. Like this was a new thing. So everybody was thinking I was crazy. Only a few of my friends actually did it, and they're still doing it today. But yeah, firm believer in it.

Host 1:59:49

So, man, you you you find cold plunge, you're you're driving 35 minutes across town, like this thing is just really, I don't know, man. Sounds like it almost like kind of changed you slash rewired your brain. And you kind of got you got addicted. And I know like again, man, we're talking late 2019, so then then COVID hits. Yep. So how did that how did that affect everything?

SPEAKER_00 2:00:14

Yeah, so I'd been doing it for like six months. Now we're going into 2020. Around March, you know, COVID starts becoming a thing. And I started seeing the writing on the wall. I started seeing business shut down. Arizona wasn't bad, but there they I knew something was gonna happen. I'm like, dude, they're gonna shut this wellness center down. So I'm like, I need to figure out how to get a cold plunge at home because March pools starting to warm up, so I don't have cold water there anymore. I'm like, what do I do to get this at my house? So I started researching. I found this Facebook forum group called Chest Freezer Cold Plunge. This guy, John Richter, runs it. I'm still friends with him today. He's a great guy, but he wrote a book on how to convert a chest freezer. So I bought it and just followed it step by step. And literally the day the wellness center shut down, I finished my chest freezer. Oh, nice. Yeah. So then I was able to have a chest freezer at home and I used that. Oh, dude, it was a lifesaver.

Host 2:01:16

Walk me through building your first chest freezer cold plunge. I used to see those. I think a buddy of mine did it, but I mean, obviously, you have a background and you know it, and uh, and you know, being able to do electrical work, but I was always scared to death. Like, I'm gonna build this thing and then like electrocute myself.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:31

Yeah, I mean, that is the thing about those chest freezers, you have to unplug them. Like, not saying you're gonna get electrocuted if you don't unplug it, but like everything's internal. Like, if you have a current bleed, it's going into the water and you can electrocute yourself. So while they're a good option, like if you forget to unplug it, you know, you're risking electrical shock. But it was fun. I liked it because I love working with my hands. And you know, during COVID, like Arizona stuff shut down for a couple weeks, then we got back to normal pretty quick. But even then, you still had a lot of time on your hands during COVID. So I was able to do that. It was a lot of fun. It took me like two days to do. I dropped it.

Host 2:02:15

You built one in like two days?

SPEAKER_00 2:02:17

Yeah. Oh wow. I mean, it took me like a couple weeks to source everything I needed and then two days to build it. The the hardest part was like sealing all the seams inside the freezer. But then you put I put a temperature sensor on it so it wouldn't freeze solid. So I'd turn on and off with the temperature I needed. I put a little fish tank filter in there to filter the water. You know, and it's a great budget option, but it's hard, they're hard to keep clean. You know, you have to make sure you unplug it all the time. They're hard to drain. But for me, it was a lifesaver initially.

Host 2:02:50

At what point, like in your cold plunge, your early cold plunge journey, were you like, yo, man, everybody needs to know about this or should have one of these?

SPEAKER_00 2:02:58

Or dude, day one, I did a cold plunge. I I was like, everybody's got to hear about this. Like, this is a life changer. So I would tell everybody I knew about it.

Host 2:03:08

Yeah, talk a little bit about the dopamine hit. You and I were talking about this off camera, and and and last night you're a little more articulate than I am, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:16

So the, I mean, you know, I'm not a scientist, but yeah, we're not doctors too, by the way. So yeah. But what I will say from my from what I know, and then what just from my personal experience, you know, when you get in cold water, you create this fight or flight response. And if you're able able to overcome that flight, you're creating these new neural pathways in your brain, essentially healing your brain, rewiring your brain. So it's great for anxiety, depression, stress, and then you get this dopamine rush. Like it's, you know, some studies say it's like 200 to 300 percent increase in a dopamine rush to compared to cocaine.

Host 2:03:56

Yeah, I think the statistic I heard, I'll have to like track it down. So don't kill me, internet, if I get this wrong. But I I think like one line of cocaine, you know, dumps dopamine for like 30 minutes. 90 seconds in cold water, I think it's below 40 degrees, releases dopamine for six hours. It's pretty, I mean, I've seen like the days that I don't cold plunge, the days are completely different.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:19

Yeah.

Host 2:04:20

And I do fight my brain every time I get in that cold water. But that whole fight or flight thing, like to your point, it it's a real. I did a little bit of research kind of last night just looking, just looking some stuff up about cold plunge. I mean, and you know, some of the benefits are, you know, mental health and brain effects, inflammation and recovery, cardal, cardiovascular and circulation benefits, immune system effects, energy and metabolism, improved sleep quality, improved painting and from chronic conditions. It's it's pretty wild. And I'm gonna let you go back to your story, but I I remember when I first learned about cold plunge, I think it was Joe Rogan had somebody on, and Joe Rogan's a big cold plunge guy. And you know, I I I got my first cold plunge, I think it was 2018. Um I'd had some medical issues, and to your point, I got in the first time, like, oh, this sucks. And then I did the second time. I'm like, Good God, like this is what is this? You know what I mean? Like, what is this feeling? Yeah, it's pretty wild. So, you know, you you you find this thing, it's it's really helping, you know, it's really helping. Did your wife notice like a difference at all?

SPEAKER_00 2:05:23

Oh yeah, dude. Like it was a total game changer. Like, she noticed it immediately that day when I came home. Like, I mean, I was I was in such a bad spot, dude. Like I was a shell of myself. So yeah, she noticed it immediately. So she's you know, you know, she'll say to this day that it changed her husband, you know.

Host 2:05:50

That's powerful. So you build your first one and did you keep it or did you sell it or today?

SPEAKER_00 2:05:57

It's sitting in in our garage as a freezer again. So we converted it back to a freezer. But I did put one, we had a gym at our office at the electrical company I was at, so I put one in there. That's still there to this day, dude. Like I built that one in 2020, so you know, almost going on six years now. Still works, yeah. It still works. Do they do they use it there? I don't think anybody uses it anymore because now all my buddies like they have my desert plunge at home, so they don't they don't use the one at the office anymore. So, but yeah, it's still up there, still up there. So, yeah, I started I did a couple chest freezers, but you know, it was always in my mind like, dude, like people need these. I need to find a more affordable way, like, and you know, I'm like, I don't think people are gonna want to buy chest freezers. So, like, how can I make a business out of this? Make something that's a little bit more aesthetically pleasing that they'd be able to put in their gym or in their back patio or in a garage or something like that. So then I started doing a ton of research, dude. And I came up, I you know, I thought of the acrylic bathtub, but they're they're pretty tiny. So then I came up with a stock tank, and I made probably like five or six stock tanks. I started with my very first one, my buddy still has it, and someday I want that back from him. Um, at this janky looking stock tank, dude, and everything's mounted on the side, but I line X the inside of it so it wouldn't, you could because I mounted, bolted all the stuff on there, and then I line X'd it to seal it all, and then just put a chiller on it, filtration system, ozone, all that. I'm like, okay, how do I make this look nicer? So then I just started different variations of that, and then I eventually started enclosing them in wood, so it looks like just a big box in a stock tank. Then I had a cabinet where everything was mounting inside, and I started selling those, and I don't know if he I don't know how he started. I think it was just word of mouth. Started selling for people.

Host 2:07:59

I think if you told me, I think your wife was putting them on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 2:08:02

That didn't start happening until Grizzly, until the the cold the Grizzly tubs. But yeah, and then well leading into that, a friend that I went to high school with, like, he was interested in the cold plunge. But I don't know, I was selling them like for like four grand. He's like, Well, hey, I got this Grizzly cooler, I've been filling it up with ice. What if you turn that into a cold plunge for me? I'm like, nah, dude, I do stock tanks. I don't wanna, I don't wanna do that. But I eventually said, All right, I'll do it for you. And that's where it all started, dude. It was I did it, I'm like, man, this is super practical. It's efficient because it's so well insulated, it's definitely scalable. Like, I'm I could see I could see a vision where like we could crank these out at a fast pace. Like these those stock tanks took forever.

Host 2:08:55

So you're making these, I mean, you're making them out of stock tanks and then chest freezers. How many stock tanks and chest freezers did you did before you hit your first grizzly?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:03

Yeah, I think I I did two chest freezers and then you know, six or eight stock tanks.

Host 2:09:09

And you're building these for other people where they ask you and then build them, and yeah, yeah. So you were really spreading the good news, man.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:16

Yeah, yeah. I remember I think I bought I dude, and I felt like I was taking a big risk at the time. I bought like four chillers at once, four stock tanks at once. I bought everything to be able to make like four four stock tanks at once. Because it was my and I remember my wife and I sitting here, we're like, you know, what if one day we sold a hundred of these? Wouldn't that be amazing? And now look today it's like selling thousands, but it was crazy sitting there talking about that.

Host 2:09:44

At what point did you realize you were on something?

SPEAKER_00 2:09:47

When I did that grizzly conversion.

Host 2:09:50

So talk to me a little bit about that grizzly conversion and and oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:54

So yeah, how that that started. I had a a friend that I went to high school with and he was interested in the cold plunge, but it was a little bit more expensive. I was like selling them for like four or five grand. He's like, ah, it's a little steep. He's like, What? But I have this grizzly tub, it this ice chest. I never even heard of grizzly at that time, but he's like, it's it can fit a human in it, and I'm like, I'm I'm putting ice in there. He's like, Do you think you could convert that to a cold plunge for me? And my initial reaction was like, No, dude, that's I'm not doing that. That's not what I do. But I eventually said yeah. So I took his his grizzly cooler, brought it to my house, and then retrofitted it and put a chiller, filtration system, ozone, all that on it. And like I got done with it. I'm like, dude, this is genius. Like, this is scalable, it's efficient because it's so well insulated, you can put a smaller chiller on it and it's it's scalable. Like, I could see the vision where we could crank these out efficiently and fast. Stock tanks took forever, they took a couple days to make one of them. It was really tedious. So that's when I knew, like, hey, there's something to this. Now, like me, if it wasn't for my wife, I don't think we'd have Desert Plunge, honestly. Because me, I'm very risk adverse. I probably would have like, oh, this is a great idea, but like, would I move forward with it? Probably not. But I was telling you the story, how we started selling those is I was on a trip in Israel, and my wife posted them on Facebook Marketplace, and she sold like 12 when I was gone. And I got back and she's like, Yeah, we got we got 12 to build. I'm like, wow. So I'm like, there's something to this. So we cranked them out in my garage, and like, dude, this is overwhelming. Like, if this, if we're gonna really move forward with this, I need a bigger space, and just kind of blind faith.

Host 2:11:54

Initially, didn't you start like you were like leasing something from your like electrical company where Working or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 2:12:01

I don't remember. Well, so it started in my garage, then we moved to like this 1500 square foot warehouse, and then we ran out of space there. And then I was still working with for the electrical company at the time. I talked to my buddy, I'm like, hey, dude, I need more space. And these warehouses are open. So I talked him into letting me move Desert Plunge into the electrical company's warehouse. So that was like 2,500 square foot or 2,900 square foot roughly. So I'm working for the electrical company, but then I've got guys working in the shop downstairs running Desert Plunge. And that was that was that was hard to keep Desert Plunge and K2 separate at that time.

Host 2:12:46

But your wife had like a sales background. Talk about how she kind of really helped shaped.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:51

Yeah, she killed it, man. Because initially, like we did that conversion, and we're like, dude, we gotta get a hold of Grizzly. Like this is this is this is a path. So she she called them because she's just you know, she's just that type of person. She's good great with people, good at building relationships. So she called them and they're like, Well, we already got got another company that's doing this, we're gonna go exclusive. So there is another company, I'm not gonna say their name, that kind of started maybe just a little bit before us, and they're doing the exact same thing we're doing, and they're like, We're gonna go exclusive with them. And my wife would not take no for an answer. She's like, You're gonna regret that if you do it. She's like, just give us a shot, we're gonna kill it. Do not go exclusive with this other company. And they finally agreed, and thank God they did. And it's been a good relationship. We have a great relationship with Grizzly. That company is no longer in the picture. So it's been it's been cool.

Host 2:13:55

What this is the part where I get to brag a little bit about on your cooler because this is kind of how I I found you. And I know initially I told you I was like, I don't want to offend you, dude, but I really like it because the design's simple, and you're like, no, that's why I prided myself. So kind of, you know, the backstory of, and I normally don't interject too much in my podcast, but I think it's important for the guest here. I I've been using a a cold plunge since I think late 2018, and I had a plunge, and that's the name of the company. And when I got my first one, they hadn't even gone to Shark Tank. And so, like, I think they're on their fifth design from when I got my initial one, and it was super complicated, wasn't made out of the great stuff. I had nothing but hell with that company. Their service department was actually pretty good, but that thing kept falling apart, man. I I think I've I went through two chillers. We had, you know, I bought one that had heat and cold, and I think one of the components fried, and then they ended up sending me a whole nother tub. And, you know, fast forward eventually that sucker broke too, and that's how I ended up finding you. And I was really combing the internet, dude, trying to find because I'm like, again, man, I think my plunge was like seven or eight grand. And then I ended up having to buy another chiller when mine broke, and it was like 1500 bucks, and they never fixed the heating element. And you know, you you look at you know, the one that I was using and it's complicated, like the parts aren't complicated, but the way they make it's complicated. So, like you gotta they end up having to send a service guy to fix it, and it just, you know, man, and I I couldn't stand the thing to be honest with you. And it broke every time I needed it, and I was really like you cold cold plunge therapy really helps me. And so I was without a cold plunge for a summer and where I live. The summers are miserable, yeah. And so I had finally, you know, I'm like, hey man, I'm gonna get another one. But again, the ones I were looking at, you know, they're like anywhere from seven to twelve grand. Yeah, and like I knew kind of what goes into a cold plunge. So I'm like, man, and I've had some friends that make one, I'm not smart enough to do it, nor would I trust myself. And I really started, I stumbled across your company looking at a different company, and I remember looking at it, I'm like, man, that's a cooler. And then I'm like, wait a minute, that makes sense. If you put it in a cooler, the water stays cooler and it doesn't, the chiller doesn't have to work as hard. So then I started like, I remember I dove into your website for like seven days, man. Like, who, who, who it's the backstory and how does this thing work? Because the last thing I wanted to do was, you know, invest in a cold plunge. And the price point that you guys were selling it was way reasonable compared to what everything else was out on the market. And again, man, you know, like every other American's time's a little bit tough, and you know, everybody's trying to stretch their dollar as far as they can. So I started looking at the design. I'm like, dude, this thing makes sense. And then I finally, that's when I finally reached out to you, and I ended up, we ended up talking, and yeah, you're like, hey man, why don't why don't you try it out? And man, I got that thing. I think I had that sucker up and running in water in less than like 20 minutes. Like you guys did a I scanned this little video, like you made your instructional video for a retard that even my knuckle dragon retarded behind could I figure out how to do it. I didn't know I didn't need anybody, no help. And I mean, even when it got delivered, you know, the the original one that I had bought from Plunge, man, the tub was heavy, so it's like a two-person carry. Yeah, I was able to move everything all by myself, dude. Yeah, and so I think I remember when I called you, you're like, Hey, do you get it? I'm like, bro, and I almost didn't want to offend you. I'm like, dude, this thing was like super easy to set up, it was super simple. You're like, no, dude, that's the way I designed it. Yeah, and like the components, uh, I I mean, I've used that thing ever, I've had it for what, probably two, three months now. I use that thing every single day. My friends use it, and I'm, you know, I'm not super tall. I mean, I'm 5'10, but I'm 220, and I fit in there like again, man. I my wife and I could both get in there if we wanted to.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:32

Yeah.

Host 2:17:32

So I love that thing. And this isn't, you know, you didn't pay me to say this. Like this was, you know what I mean? Like, I it's a it's a great design. Tell me how tell me how you kind of came up with that design and kind of the evolution of the company.

SPEAKER_00 2:17:45

And you know, like, yeah, the well, we came up with the design because I wanted to start shipping nationwide. And I'm like, I can't ship this stuff all mounted on the tub. Like, so how do we make it where we can put everything inside the tub and then they unpack it, they put it together. So we just kept getting better and better at figuring out, okay, how can we almost make it like an IKEA kit where you just unpack it, build it, and you're up and running. And I mean, it's way simpler than building a piece of furniture, I'll tell you that. Oh, yeah, dude.

Host 2:18:24

100%.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:24

Yeah. But that's how we kind of that's how my brain kind of thought about it. And I I we intentionally, and I I'm glad you brought it up, like, we intentionally keep it as simple as possible. And and as well, like, I don't want to make this like all I don't want all these parts and pieces to be prior pri proprietary to us. Like, if something does break, I mean it's a cannon mechanical piece of equipment, like stuff breaks from time to time. Like, hey, I mean, some of the stuff you can go find online and go pick it up and replace it if you need to. And every part and piece is designed where it's a quick and easy, just unscrew up a couple connections and replace it. Like, there's nothing complicated about this.

Host 2:19:06

Yeah, and I can attest to that too because the plunge I had, man, they glued everything. So it's like, dude, you know, good luck on trying to figure it out. You're gonna have to cut pipes and re-glue them back together. I mean, it was like a Frankenstein, you know, sprinkler system kit. And then yours is like, literally, man, you can unscrew one thing, you know, because I as soon as I got it, I looked, I'm like, all right, man, what's gonna break on this thing and is it gonna be? And I'm like, man, I I remember just looking at this thing, like, hmm, this guy put a lot of you put a lot of like effort and thought process into, and it was evident from the moment I opened that box, man. Even the way you guys wrapped it and shipped it, it was just really cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:19:41

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of that came from okay, how do we how do we continue to expand and ship nationwide? And we needed to be able to do that because I just all I saw was damaged tubs in my in my head if I've if we mounted all that stuff on the back and tried to ship it. So, but yeah, I mean, we intentionally like we don't use these all-in-one chillers because we found those have had a lot of problems. I mean, the pump, the filter, the ozone, everything's inside the chiller. So if one of those components go bad, you're sending the entire chiller back, and then you're down. Now, not to say we'll never have an all-in-one chiller, you know, that's something we're potentially working on. Um, but I want to make sure if I do it, I do it right. But like, you know, all these chillers have Wi-Fi and all these bells and whistles, heating. Like, to me, it's completely unnecessary, and it's just more stuff that breaks.

Host 2:20:34

And it's something you got to pass the cost on somewhere, too.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:36

Yeah, right, right, exactly. So everything just starts becoming more expensive. People ask us all the time, too, like, hey, are you ever gonna come out with a heating option? I'm like, no, I I want to just give people cold water, like go get in the bathtub or the shower or get a jacuzzi if you want to spa. Yeah, great point. You know what I mean? So, but yeah, we've always intentionally kept it as simple as possible, and I'm glad you've you've recognized that because that's exactly what we're going for.

Host 2:21:01

Well, one of the things I I really looked at, right? Because I wanted to give an honest, like honest feedback. This is who I am. I'm not gonna say, hey, dude, Matt built the greatest, you know, cold plunge and thing falls apart in a week. And then of course my name's on it as well. But I remember, you know, I I I started running that thing. I wanted to figure out how how often the chiller turned on. And it was kind of warm when I when we first got it, but I noticed, man, like that chiller wasn't, you know, the obviously the water pump stays, but I noticed the chiller wasn't coming on after that initial day when we got the water cold because that grizzly cooler. I mean, it's it's it's well-made cooler, uh, and it's a straight-up cooler that's been outfitted. Yeah, so and I noticed, man, that the chiller just wasn't have to run that much because the water was staying cooled unless I opened it and got in it. Yeah, I mean, it seals up just like a cooler would. Yeah. Um, but it's man, I love the design. It's simple, but it's super efficient. Uh, and it I mean, I had my buddy in it, he's six foot five. Got in it, no problem, man. So it's you know, and it and it's it looks like it's you know built to last, you know. Yeah, we'll see. I'm definitely gonna put the screws that thing for the next year. And but I think you and I were talking yesterday, like you haven't had have you had tons of like recall had to like recall issues or no.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:10

I mean, just you you know, your standard typical equipment failures that just happen from time to time. You know, the chillers have been very reliable for us. Like, if we if we do have failures, it's typically like right out-of-box failures. We don't typically see, oh, my chiller runs for six months then then dies. Like that rarely ever happens. We've got a lot of customers going on three years now with the same chiller. You know, we had a little bit of an issue there where we had pumps leaking, but not not an alarming rate, but something that you know happened more than I wanted. So we addressed that. I think we re-innovated how we hooked the pumps up, and so you know, but the the key to that is though, like if you do ever have a problem, like we're literally shipping you something in you know, one to three business days when you're back up and running. And the nice thing about it is too, like, hey, your pump fails, shut it down, keep keep it closed. The water's gonna stay cold, like, and you can continue to use your cold plunge. But yeah, no, no, that's what I'm really proud of is like the our failure rate is very, very low, and that's mainly because we've kept it simple.

Host 2:23:16

Yeah, no, I I think it's awesome. At what point did you realize, hey man, we're doing this full time, I'm I'm gonna walk away from the electrical company. What was that decision point? Because I also think it's great for people to hear, you know, the small business side. I know there's a lot of guys listening out there that may have some business ideas, and you're just like, you know, you've got this idea, but you're you're paralyzed, right? Like that decision point of I have the steady income versus the risk, but sometimes there's a reward to that risk.

SPEAKER_00 2:23:43

Yeah, that was that was a hard decision, and I didn't necessarily make that myself. I kind of got forced into it. So I was still working for the electrical company as an estimator, but then running desert plunge at the same time. Desert plunge was starting to pick up, and they could all see it because they're walking by the warehouse and see how busy we're got dudes going to town in there, yeah. And you know, they could see I was totally not invested in the electrical company anymore. Like I was solely invested in Desert Plunge and making sure I was getting that up and off the ground. And finally the guy that he was the head estimator, I'd known him, I'd been working with him for like 18, 19 years. He's like, dude, you gotta make a choice, man. Like you either gotta stick with us or you know, go full time with Desert Plunge. He's like, I can't, he's like, I'm not getting anything out of you. And like I sat there, I'm like, yeah, dude, you're right. Like, I'm not. I felt bad because like I'm like, I'm not and you've known these people too, man. So it's like yeah.

Host 2:24:48

So I was like, all right. Did your wife did she continue working or did she quit full-time to help you as well?

SPEAKER_00 2:24:55

She worked for like the first six to eight months. Um she was a travel agent. So we had a little bit of income coming in there. She yeah, she came on she stopped about six to eight months in and then she kind of focused solely on Desert Plunge for a bit, doing our our marketing and social media. But yeah, when when I stepped down, I mean, I don't know if I would have done it. Like not when I stepped down, when I quit fully and moved to Desert Plunge solely, I don't know if I would have done it unless they forced me to, yeah, which they did.

Host 2:25:34

So looking back now, how did that like push of you know, kind of getting out of your comfort zone? Like, how did that help you?

SPEAKER_00 2:25:44

I mean, it was just total trust in God and knowing, like, hey, this is this is the plan you clearly have for me, and just taking that leap of faith. Because I could have said, all right, I'll shut, I'll shut Desert Plunge down and take the easy path. Because I've been in the electrical industry for 20 years. Like, I know I can make a career out of that if I wanted to, whether I liked it or not. Like, I know I could make good money and keep going down that path. I didn't know if Desert Plunge was really going to be successful, but I I hadn't even really taken any I hadn't taken any money out of the company at that point, you know. So, you know, we had some a nest egg from the equity buyout, right? So that made it a little bit easier, but like just not knowing the future and just trusting God, like, hey, I got you, like this is what I really felt him calling me to do. And I I hadn't really like ever really done that before in my life, just put all my faith and trust in what I felt him calling me to do. So that that was a real growing moment.

Host 2:26:47

Did that did that take some of the stress away off of you, dude? I've I've had to do that in my own life, and I I have found that like being able to just, you know, really, and it sounds kind of cliche overly churchy sometimes, like, oh, I just put my faith, but man, there really is something to me for that personally, and I I just want to know kind of it, you know, did that help you, you know, relieve some of the late night stress, or yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:12

I think it helps a little bit more today than it did initially. Sure. Like today, like this time of year, we slow down every year because it's cold outside, people spend all their money for Black Friday. We slow down, and my brain goes to these places like, oh, you're you're done. Like nobody wants cold plunges anymore. Like you're going out of business. And I'm like, you know what? Okay, even if that's true, which it's not, like, this is what God has called me to do. He's never failed me. Like throughout my whole life, I've gone through some very, you know, deep valleys, but I always came out on top. And so that's where I sit back and be like, hey, you know what? God has a plan for you. Maybe it's not desert plunge for the next 10 years, but he has a plan. So don't stress about it. Like, and that's easy to say, but that's kind of how I have to sit back and think of things now today and just put my trust in that.

Host 2:28:06

Oh, I love that, dude. Yeah, I think there is this thing where we get so fixated on the future and what's you know, two to five years out, and you miss what's going on right in front of you, the day-to-day, you know, time, you know, and and it really is as a small business owner, you can really get wrapped up in the day-to-day too, man, and then you know, miss time with your kids and your spouse, and you know, half the time you're worrying about stuff that you got no control over anyway. Yeah. And so it's good to hear another small business owner talking about, you know, faith and and how that plays a role in in your in your business. One of the questions I wanted to ask you too, because your your your price point is extremely competitive for the market itself. How how are you able to keep your price point so competitive? And by competitive, I mean a lot cheaper than you know the other brands in your industry.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:55

Yeah. Well, I try not to be greedy. I also know how to run a business. I think I got a lot of experience from the electrical company. Um, I understand you know, PLs, I understand my costs. I don't think a lot of companies do, honestly. And they just, oh, the more money I throw into marketing, the more return I'm gonna get. And most companies honestly don't even know how much money they're making, to be honest. Um, they don't keep track of their books correctly. So one, I try not to be greedy. I don't put a 10x markup on these things and you know, sell them for 50% off, like a lot of these companies do. Because I think a lot of what's happening today is well, it's all drop ship from China. These companies that are starting probably have never even touched their product. It's sitting in a third-party warehouse somewhere, someone places an order and ships out, but they have you know five to ten X markup on it, so they can do that. But yeah. And then we just try and keep it simple. Like, I don't I don't overcomplicate it. Like, we could come out with like some high-end model for 10 grand if we want, but I'm like, why? People just want cold water, you know what I mean? That's like they don't need it to like do something special, it just needs to make cold water. But I really, really keep track of my costs, I really understand what we're spending, and I understand what you have to make, and that's how I'm able to stay on top of it.

Host 2:30:29

What's uh what's kind of your philosophy on customer service?

SPEAKER_00 2:30:32

Yeah, so coming that is my number one priority. Like, and sometimes it's it's to a fault, like especially if you ever get me on the phone, you'll probably end up getting something for free. So like I'm so that'll let so that'll let you answer your phones. But you know, coming from that background of the service department I started, like that was all customer service based. So I had that background. But I think you know, companies today, like half the time you can't even call them and get on the phone with a real human anymore. And people really appreciate that when they can call and talk to a live person because somebody's gonna drop 3,500 bucks, like that's a lot of money for people, and they want to be reassured that this is a real company, they can call and get customer support if they need. If anything breaks, we're gonna be here for you.

Host 2:31:18

Yeah, I called a competitor to try to get my cold plunge fixed, and I ended up talking to a chick in the Philippines that didn't know anything about cold plunge. Yeah, exactly. Super frustrating.

SPEAKER_00 2:31:27

Yeah, so that's what I stress to my team. Like, customer service is our number one priority. I'd like to say we put profits, we could put customers over profits, you know. Cause I want to at the end of the day, like number one, the reason why I started this company was because it changed my life and I know how it can change other people's lives. So the last thing I want to do is somebody spend 3,500 bucks and they're not happy with a product, you know.

Host 2:31:53

So tell me about your chiller. Why does it cycle on and off and instead of running constantly? I know the answer, but I think it's important for you to explain.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:01

I mean, it's it works kind of like an AC unit. So say you want to set it to 45 degrees, it's gonna cool the water to 45 degrees, and then it's set at a two degree temperature differential. So once it cools it to 45, the chiller is gonna shut off and then it's gonna warm back up two degrees, and then it's gonna kick back on. So it'll cycle on and off like that. The reason there's a two-degree temperature differential is because if there wasn't, that chiller would just be turning on and off constantly and it eventually ruin it. So, but once you like once you do your initial fill up, whatever your hose water is and the ambient temperature, it'll take, you know, it could take 24 hours to cool it all the way down. But once it's at that temperature you want, it stays within that two degrees, no problem.

Host 2:32:41

What's been one of your like your biggest challenges running a small business?

SPEAKER_00 2:32:46

Biggest challenge, inventory, keeping up with inventory, making sure we're getting it all flowing in timely. And yeah, just tracking it, tracking our inventory system. That's been an that's been one of our biggest challenges. And I'd say just dealing with an end users too, the customer, direct to consumer. That's hard. That is always one of the hardest challenges when you're when you're dealing with somebody that's spending this type of money. I mean, they're deeply invested in it. So for me, personally, that's one of my hardest challenges because I I'm so invested in it, and it it's like a gut punch just if something ever happens to somebody's plunge. And so I've had to kind of separate myself from that because I get way too invested. It drains me, man. So I've had to separate myself from that part of the business. That was one of the hardest things for a while. Like, oh, this part's leaking, or oh, my chiller just died. Like, and it just kills me. So that was one of the hardest things I had to learn to deal with.

Host 2:33:58

Do you think that drives you to really? Just constantly tearing apart your design to figure out what works, what doesn't?

SPEAKER_00 2:34:03

Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're like me and my warehouse manager, we're constantly sitting like, How can we improve this? What can we do to make this better? without overly complicating it. But yeah, always.

Host 2:34:14

Oh, that's awesome. What's been one of your biggest surprises with Desert Plunge?

SPEAKER_00 2:34:21

Honestly, just how fast it took off and how well received we've been in the industry. And how many people comment on my story? Like, we get calls all the time of just people that have bought our product because they can relate to what I've gone through. And that's been a cool surprise because we have a video on the website of just about my journey going to Ecuador and how I found cold therapy. My ad my had my office admin walk in my office the other day, put someone on speaker just saying how much he enjoyed the product and how much he enjoyed my story, and just tell Matt thank you. So stuff like that.

Host 2:35:00

Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome to see a business owner that can still connect with the people that he sells to, right? Because that's a that used to be like what America was known for. Now it's like get big and get yourself a Ferrari and talk to people again. So it's really cool to see. And I've gotten to spend time with you and get to know you. And that's, you know, again, man, we pride ourselves kind of who we bring on the podcast. And it was one thing that really struck out when I first talked to you, is just, you know, you're you're just a regular dude like the rest of us, a humble dude, and you know, you're you're finding extreme success. And it's cool to see, like, it's cool to hear your story and then to hear your success, right? And I think, you know, you you are a testament to, you know, like the tough times don't define who you are. Yeah. We're not defined by how we fall. We're defined by how we pick ourselves back up and continue to get back up, no matter what life throws at us. And and I love that. I love that you were able to, you know, reinvent yourself and and you know, continue to to to challenge and then find something that that helped you and then become extremely passionate to be able to give that back, you know, at without charging somebody 20 times what what that said thing's worth. I mean, of course, you still have to, you know, you have a wife and a kids and and you know, you gotta keep the lights on. Yeah. So I I think that's super cool. I know you're not a scientist, and I know you and I have kind of talked about how carving, like carving this, this part of the neither one of us are doctors or scientists, but talk to me about what cold therapy does and and some of the benefits of it, you know, to to your to your knowledge base.

SPEAKER_00 2:36:32

Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, it's great for stress, anxiety, depression, you know, creating that fight or flight when you get in that cold water and wanting to get out and overcoming that creates these new neural pathways. And just the dopamine and neuroponephrine rush that you get from cold water is super beneficial. So the mental health, I mean, just just the mental resilience and fortitude you build from getting in cold water every day, because it's doing something you don't want to do. And if you if you do something that you don't want to do every day, you're just creating this massive amount of mental discipline that's only going to set you up for success later in life. So that's one of like the biggest things that like really doesn't get talked about a lot is the benefit from that. For me, besides the mental health, I used to struggle. I used to get headaches like three, four times a week consistently. And when I started cold plunging on a regular basis, I didn't even realize it, but my headaches went away. The you know, the other things now I'm really getting into I work out a lot and it really helps me with my recovery. I find that the when it when I say warmer, like in the mid-50s, I find it really helps with inflammation. I typically stay in there for like six to eight minutes and it really knocks down inflammation and helps with the recovery soreness. It's great for sleep, especially if you do contrast therapy. When I really want to relax at night, I mean you can either use it can be body of hot water or it could be a sauna, whatever, but you hot, cold, hot, end on cold. Now, when I end on cold, I only end up for like 30 seconds the last time. But it your body's just so relaxed, it's great for sleep. A lot of people sleep hot. Like my brother, for example. Oh, dude, that's me too, bro. Yeah, so sleeps hot and he cold plunges before bed and he says he sleeps great because I think like the optimal sleeping temperature is between like 65 and 72 degrees. Your body needs to cool down, your brain needs to cool down in order to sleep well.

Host 2:38:36

Can you just say that one more time? My wife listens to this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:38:39

Yeah, 65 to 72. That's what I tell my wife too, every all the time.

Host 2:38:44

Yeah, we are forever fighting over I want I want the room like cold enough to where you can hang meat, and she's yeah, got that sucker up at 74 talking about how it's still cold in the room. No, that's that's that's awesome. For someone who's never cold plunged, what should they expect on that first that first time?

SPEAKER_00 2:39:00

Most people get in there and start hyperventilating, most, not everybody, but you get in that cold water and you're like, trying to can't talk, you're trying to catch your breath. And then they feel a lot of people feel like they're having like a panic attack. So they want to get out like this isn't right, um, something's going wrong. But if you like just take deep, long breaths, control it, you'll eventually, like, after the first minute, you'll start to calm down. I'd say don't like don't start off as cold as possible. Like, you know, the science kind of that's gone out there right now is like anything below 60, you're getting the health benefits from. My take on that is well, if you get in at 60 and feel like you can stay in forever, it's not cold enough. So you want a temperature where you get in where, like, oh crap, like that's cold, and I I want to get out. Because the point of it is you don't want to just sit there and be like kicked back and relax. Like the point of it is to be hard and you don't want to be in there forever. So it'll take your breath away, long deep breaths, find a temperature that is uncomfortable where you don't want to be, but it doesn't have to be 39 degrees.

Host 2:40:08

Yeah, I find something that helps me. I don't really have to do it anymore. But when I first started, I would take a huge inhale and then I would get in the cold water and I would completely empty my lungs. So I really found that that helped alter my fight or flight to really kind of rewire my brain to not flip out. And then to your point, I would I box breathe while I'm in there. Now I kind of use it as a time to just, you know, pray. I normally do like two to three minutes in there and really kind of focus because it's it's a it's a source of meditation. If you you want to stay in there for two minutes, it's meditation. Yeah, however you go into that meditative state, whatever you're thinking about, but you know, to it it's it's it's super helpful. But yeah, I I think it's good to to talk about kind of for people out there who have never done it before that are I mean it's gonna take your breath away, your brain's gonna tell you you shouldn't do it. But if you fight through it, change your breathing, you can, you know, there's a couple different ways you can you can Wim Hof breathe, you can box breathe, or you could dump your lungs, but you know, you you do get used to one of the things I've noticed the more I cold plunge, I don't get cold. Like, I mean, I can go out, I mean it's been pretty cold here. I don't even really wear a jacket that often. I find the more I cold plunge, the more I'm like my body can deal with the cold. It's kind of interesting. It's a side effect I never considered.

SPEAKER_00 2:41:17

Yeah, and I mean people swear by it too that they don't get sick anymore when they cold plunge because yeah.

Host 2:41:22

I mean, that's one of the things I read as I was studying last night is how it can just really boost your immune system. I mean, you know, knock on wood, I normally get sick like once a year and it's already come, but I I mean I used to get sick a lot more often, and now man, I I just you know, and I I use the sauna as well. How long, and again, man, I want to caveat this, and neither one of us are doctors or scientists, but based on kind of like your knowledge and you being in the industry, what's like how long you normally recommend people staying in there?

SPEAKER_00 2:41:49

Yeah, I don't think there's a right answer to it. I think it's just you're gonna you're gonna know, you're gonna have to trust your body and feel. I what I will say is I think you know, if you're wanting a more of a dopamine rush, this energy effect, this feel-good, colder for shorter, maybe anywhere from 90 seconds to three minutes. If we're trying to knock down inflammation, warm it up in the 50s and go in for six to eight minutes. But like there's no scientific data that states you have to be in for this amount of time. I think like Andrew Huberman said something like you should try and accumulate 11 minutes total a week. I've never followed that. Like some weeks I'll do 20 minutes, some weeks I'll do five minutes. Like, I don't think there's a right answer. Yeah, great.

Host 2:42:38

Should people be doing it in the morning or evening, or does it really matter? Is it a personal preference? Like, what's your kind of thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 2:42:45

Yeah, it's probably more of a personal preference, but I I will say you probably would get the most benefits if you just do it first thing in the morning. Yeah, it's like knock it out, get it out of the way. I mean, you've done something hard for the day. It gives you that endorphin rush to start your day. You start it off right, you know what I mean?

Host 2:43:01

Yeah, there's a couple people. I I don't know if Joe Rogan is one of them, but I know there's like there's a bunch of research now where people are getting in, getting in the cold plunge actually before they work out.

SPEAKER_01 2:43:10

Yeah.

Host 2:43:11

And then, you know, you're using your you get in there, you get in the cold plunge, and then you know, and then you start your workout after that. There's a couple people that are doing that. Yep. How often do you recommend people cold plunge or is there any kind of science or yeah, those are all good questions.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:27

I actually so we did we did a uh workshop a couple years ago on this with Morasco Forge, hosted it and we partnered with him on it. Moroco Forge is another cold plunge company. Oh, yeah. He's a friend of mine, he's in Arizona too.

Host 2:43:42

We don't consider that's who Joe Joe Rogan has one of theirs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:43:45

Yeah, we don't consider ourselves competitors, he's way out of my price range. Like he purposely, like he builds the biggest and baddest cold plunges and they're expensive. But we collaborate a lot, we work together. We actually did a workshop and brought all these scientists from all over the world, these practitioners, all this, and tried to answer some of these questions that you're asking. And there really wasn't there really wasn't a right answer. But so it and I maybe in a couple more years we'll find more of that information out. But what I always tell people is just trust your body and trust how you feel. Like I wouldn't recommend cold plunging when you're sick. I used to do it twice a day. People think that is was a little bit excessive, but that's what I needed at the time, and I knew that's what I needed at the time. Now I do, you know, maybe three times a week. But I think you'll you'll kind of know it'll be intuitive. I don't think you can overdo it. I mean, I probably wouldn't do it four times a day, but yeah, that's great advice.

Host 2:44:47

As we kind of trish, you know, uh transition to the backside of the podcast. You know, I'd I'd love to talk about, you know, we we spend some time talking about, you know, kind of the rougher years of your life and then kind of the transition. And then I mean, you know, you've just blossomed and you know, you've got a business going, you've got a family. I know your your wife's a big part of your life. I think anytime you and I've had a conversation, she's come up. You know, where where are you now kind of mentally, emotionally, as far as you know, where you were, let's say 10, you know, 10 years ago and and through your battles and struggles.

SPEAKER_00 2:45:18

Yeah, I'm definitely way better, but I will say, like, I still struggle with some anxiety. I still struggle with low points in my life. Insomnia is gone. That, but yeah, I still struggle with some of that. I have tools now, like cold therapy. There's some other things I do to help me with my mental health. So I can't say like I did a cold plunge and it cured everything and it went away forever. No, that's that's life, right? Yeah, that's not life. So I still struggle with it, but I've got tools in my back pocket that I'm able to utilize to help me get through it. And I know like if if I hit a rough patch again, like it's it's not gonna be forever. I get through it and you know, deal with it. But I think all in all, I'm doing really good. I mean, running a business is hard, it can take a mental toll on you. There's a lot of anxiety that comes with that. But I think I've learned a lot through the years that, you know, if I were to have done this 10 years ago, I don't think I would have been able to do it.

Host 2:46:16

Yeah, I love the honesty in your response, right? Like sometimes everyone's gonna hear like, oh, I went through this thing and now everything's perfect. That's not reality, man. I mean, life still happens. You know, there's always going to be struggles, they're just different. I think, you know, just listening to kind of all the different things that and the and the ways that you've found to cope is is still refreshing, right? Because there's still times that I still struggle with my own mental health. And you know, like you're never you're never out. But I think, you know, the things you do, the tools, the more tools you can put in your tool bag, I think that's you know, that's a that's that's a great way to frame it. Talk to me about your kids a little bit. What kind of dad are you trying to be these days? I know you and I were talking about this yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 2:46:52

Yeah. Man, I'm trying to be as intentional as I can, but like still, you know, tough love. I I I I don't want to spoil them. I don't want to give them too much. You know, I'm a lot more strict than my wife is, and I think maybe that's probably dads in general. But love my kids. I'm probably a little bit more, a little bit more serious than I should be with them. I think one of the things I need to work on is lightening up and that have more fun with my kids. Yeah. But I'm just so focused on it, want them to be good human beings and contribute to society. But, you know, I try and take an interest in things that they're interested in. You know, we're you were we were talking about the other day, you know, dating your kids, right? And especially that's something yeah, that's something I was doing for a little bit, but I need to get back to doing that with my daughter. She's 14 now, almost 15. So, I mean, she's gonna be out of the house soon. Yep. So being really intentional with that. But, you know, I still want them to be kids as long as possible, too. Like, I think the world sucks and they have to grow up too fast. So also finding that fine line, and okay, like they don't need to be busy, they they don't need to get home from school and then do chores for three hours, right? Like, they're busy, they're doing school, playing sports, like so finding that balance where teaching them discipline, teaching them structures, teaching them responsibilities, yet letting them be kids still.

Host 2:48:19

Because of what you and your wife have been through. Like, do you guys talk about mental health regularly in the house? Are they kind of aware of some of those things? Or what's that conversation like?

SPEAKER_00 2:48:27

Yeah, you know, my kids definitely know that I struggled. My daughter is a lot like me, so she she struggles with a little bit of that. She'll do the breath work with me sometimes. When she was younger, she used to do a lot with me, which I really enjoyed. She'd ask me to before we would go to bed, we would do the Wim Hof breathing together. And I missed that. I wish I'm gonna bring that up to her when I get home and have her do it with me. So we we talk about it, like, and I want him to cold plunge more because I I let them know like how beneficial it can be for your mental health, but I'm not gonna force them. My daughter will go through phases where she'll get into it for a little bit and then she won't do it for a while. My son, he'll stick his head in there if he's got a headache or something, but he doesn't like doing it. But yeah, we talk about it a lot.

Host 2:49:16

One of the things you and I were talking about in the car yesterday, and I I asked if you're okay with having this conversation because I I think it's important. You know, you and your wife both struggled with addiction, and you guys have been sober, which I think is pretty awesome. What's that conversation like with your kids, right? Because now your daughter's at the age. I mean, you know a little bit about my own personal story. I don't really share on the podcast. But you know, like what is that conversation like in a world where drugs are so readily available?

SPEAKER_00 2:49:43

Yeah. Yeah. So we've just started having like those real conversations with them because they're old enough now to understand it. We haven't told them everything about our past, but they know, like, hey, mom and dad have an addictive personality. We've we've gotten in trouble with drugs and alcohol. And we're explaining to them, like, you know, I don't want to paint this picture where like it's this evil thing, like alcohol is this evil thing, or drugs are this evil thing. Cause I honestly think that might entice them more to, oh, what's this all about? I want to go try it. Yeah. But just letting them know that, you know, they have to be cautious. Like, because mom, mom, and dad are both addicts, they have a real potential to become an alcoholic or drug drug addict. And also telling them, like, it's not how it used to be. Like, we used to be able to buy a pill off the street and feel completely safe, right? Now you don't know what you're getting, you could die by popping one pill. Oh, people are dying by the drugs.

Host 2:50:46

There is no, like, you can't buy oxies anymore. You can't buy not that I used to buy that stuff, but I mean, I I work in law enforcement, and it would, you know, you could we used to see them on the street, like, you know, VA patients giving away their pain meds or selling them or whatever. And yeah, it's all gone. I mean, the medical industry's tightening everything down. And yeah, so now, man, I mean, you you buy a pain pill, it's fentanyl, you know, right to what extent and how much.

SPEAKER_01 2:51:07

Exactly.

Host 2:51:07

You know, uh, and and you know, I I wanted to make that clear earlier in our talk because I know we we talked about your addictions and your and your struggle with drugs, and you know, the first time you took a pill, you know, and how that made you feel, but that was 20 years ago. Yeah, those days, those pills don't exist anymore. Like you buy you get a pain pill off the street, and nine times out of ten, it's fentanyl, whether or not you'll kill you is the game of roulette that you're playing.

SPEAKER_00 2:51:29

Right. And I've heard way too many stories about these young kids dying from this, and it's so scary. And that's what we try and tell them. Like, I don't want to scare them too much, but like I'm like, guys, this is not how it used to be when mom and I were younger.

Host 2:51:42

Yeah, and that's what you and I were talking about yesterday. I mean, the world that you and I are raised in, it doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, like I've even had to change my parenting style, and again, man, because I think we adopt, whether we like it or not, I mean, we end up adopting some of those good, bad or indifferent parenting techniques, but you know, the the stuff that we grew up, man, it's just a different. And we were latchkey kids, at least I was, you know, and you'd run the streets till you know it got dark at night, and you know, yeah, I remember I think I had a pager in high school, so it's like, you know, your mom would pay you, but now man, like it's it's just a different world. Yeah. So yeah. I I just kind of wanted to, I was curious, you know, as to what that conversation was like. What have you learned about breaking, you know, generational cycles as somebody who's you know been through a lot? We didn't dive d deep into some of that stuff, but I'm I know you, you know, I know you're being intentional with you know your family and your wife and your kids, and and what's that been like?

SPEAKER_00 2:52:36

Yeah, my wife and I talk about that a lot. You know, there's things that we've brought in from our childhood, and we're like, it doesn't need to continue. Like we're gonna break that. I mean, some of it we talk about this generational curse. Like we don't need to continue to carry that. And we're very intentional about some of that stuff we've felt we've brought in and we need to stop. So that's a yeah, that's an active conversation we have often with each other. I love that.

Host 2:53:08

You said that two of the worst things in your life became two of the best things in your life.

SPEAKER_00 2:53:13

Explain that. Well, that the the path that I went down with the drug addiction. I mean, it was a long journey and it was a difficult journey, but it ultimately led me to my wife. Now we've been married 17 years, so you know, God turned that tragedy into triumph, and then that mental health crisis I went through in 2019 where I could not see any positive coming out of it. Like I was in the darkest, darkest moments of my life, yet out of that bloomed desert plunge. You know what I mean? Love it. So turning God, turning tragedy into triumph in those two situations.

Host 2:53:51

Yeah, you know, one of the things I think I've said recently is, you know, sometimes it's hard to see the rainbow when you're in the middle of the storm.

SPEAKER_01 2:53:58

Yeah.

Host 2:53:58

But like at the end of the day, man, the sun's gonna go down and then it's gonna come up the next day, dude. Yeah, and you get another, another start. I think sometimes we, you know, when you're in that dark time, it's really hard to see the light, dude. But it's coming, right? Yeah, there's there's hope. And I know your your faith's been a part of your life. I mean, do you look back on your life and do you see kind of God's hand in your story?

SPEAKER_00 2:54:21

Oh yeah, 100%. Like that's just just doesn't happen by chance.

Host 2:54:27

Yeah, I mean, I heard like you know, you get your first DUI, it gets dismissed. Yeah, your job lets you, you know, your your boss lets you back on the job a couple times after rehab. Like it's really cool and it's really easy, I think, sometimes to miss that. Yeah, but that it's good to hear that you know your faith helped you. I I wanted to ask you just quickly, I mean, you mentioned going to Israel and and doing the trail. We were talking about it last night at dinner. What was that experience like and and kind of what was you know, what did you get out of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:54:55

Yeah, I was cool. It was really eye-opening. So yeah, we did it, wasn't like your typical bus tour. Like I went with 12 other guys, and we it was it was basically like a backpacking trip through Israel from Nazareth to Jerusalem. It was called the Jesus Trail. I think we ended up walking a total of 150 miles. Wow. And I was exhausted, but it was so much fun, man. And you know, you got to see a lot of things you typically wouldn't see in your normal touristy trip. We went with a guy that had probably probably been to Israel like 15 or 20 times already. So he knew all the ins and outs. So like we'd stop every couple hours and he explained, you know, the spot and its significance and all that. But it was so cool, like being able to be in some of these like towns where you know Jesus potentially walked. And just just it was it was a really impactful trip and just kind of put things in perspective for me. I would love to do it again though, because it was such a whirlwind. If if I were to go back and do it again, I'd probably go there a few days earlier, get settled. Like, cause you know the time differences like 16, 17 hours. So by the time I finally started sleeping good on the 10th day, we turned around and went home. But super impactful trip. Like we on the last one of the last days we were there, we were supposedly in the jail cell where Jesus was sitting the night before he was crucified. Wow. Yeah. And you just sit there and just kind of sit with that for a little bit and think about that. Just crazy. Yeah. That kind of gave me the chills.

Host 2:56:28

How was how does your faith influence how you run your business?

SPEAKER_00 2:56:31

Yeah. It does quite a bit. I I try not to like push it down anybody's throat. You know what I mean? I think people know Desert Plunge and they know what we stand for, but I'm not going to sit there and preach from a uh stand in the street, right? I just want people to know like we love Jesus and we want to serve people with cold therapy. And that's how I want our company to be known. And I hope that comes across that way. Dude, I love that.

Host 2:56:59

For the young man or woman listening who's struggling with addiction, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 2:57:08

Yeah, it's not worth it. I mean, I think I think there's always two paths you can take in life. You can take the easy path and the hard path. You're gonna end up at the same destination. But it's your choice on which path you want to take. But God's gonna take you to the same spot. But it's just not worth it. I mean it's hard for these young kids today because I'm trying to think back of how I felt at that age. And you just don't see all the the repercussions that are coming from that lifestyle, all the people that you've hurt, all the destruction you're doing to your body, just the pain and agony you have you're putting yourself through, it's just not worth it. It's just not worth it.

Host 2:58:03

For the dad who's worried about his kid like your dad, what would you ass what would you uh what would you say or what piece of advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 2:58:11

Yeah, that's really hard. And I don't even fully know how to answer that question yet. And I hope I'm never in that situation, you know. We talked about it a little bit, like, you know, you do everything you can for them, especially when they're still young, not over 18. But at some point you gotta be careful about how much you enable them, and it's gonna be probably the hardest thing you've ever done in your life. But at some point you have to stop enabling and they have to make that decision themselves. Because nobody's gonna make that decision for them. They're the only person that is gonna be able to make that decision. I can imagine what it would be like, but yeah, I'd say be careful not to enable.

Host 2:58:54

The one thing I add is don't give up. Don't give up on your kid. It's really easy, don't do it. Yeah. For the guy for the guy in a struggling marriage, what would be uh your piece of advice? I mean, you've you've rode some highs and lows. I know your wife's a trooper. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:59:10

Yeah. I mean, I think marriage is a blessing. It's it's very hard. It takes intentional work. So, like, if you're not willing to work on your marriage on a daily basis, like you can't expect it to get better. So I'd say be very intentional, be selfless, like I talked about earlier. And it will get better. Like it just will. I mean, there's a reason you guys got married. You get I, you know, so but everything you work, like you're not gonna become better at business just sitting there and letting it happen, right? You gotta continue to work on it, continue to grow your business. The same thing in marriage. You have to be intentional with it. A lot of us just show up and expect our marriage to be great and not put in any work. So you gotta put in the work, but you'll receive the rewards from it.

Host 3:00:02

Great response. For someone considering starting a business, what should they know?

SPEAKER_00 3:00:10

Know that it's gonna suck. It's gonna suck bad. Obviously, there's a lot of perks to owning your own business, running your own business. The rewards are awesome, but like just getting to that path, you know, know I mean, there's a lot of risk involved. The stress that you're under, it's hard. It's hard where like a lot of people think, you know, you run a business, you got it made, and it's that's far from the truth. Everybody I know who runs a business is under an immense amount of pressure and stress, but the reward can be worth it. But there's a lot of risk involved too. Yeah, so be prepared for life to suck.

Host 3:00:49

Yeah, and if you're not, if you have this fear of failure and you can't afford to fail, yeah, don't start a business, dude. Yeah, because you know, most of your billionaires will tell you how many times they failed. Everybody sees, you know, what Tesla is, but nobody, you know, yeah, man. Maybe he had a lot of money to start with, but you know, take take a successful business, and I guarantee you, you know, they failed a lot more times than they put on social media.

SPEAKER_00 3:01:12

Right. Most people are gonna fail a few times before they succeed for sure.

Host 3:01:16

I wanted uh to talk about something with you, you know, real quick. It's something that you and I talked about offline, and that's something we've talked about on the channel before, but you've had some experiences with plant medicine. I mean, I know you and I had a a pretty long conversation about it. What's kind of been your experience, you know, how did you find it and and and how did it help you or did it help you?

SPEAKER_00 3:01:37

Yeah, so the first, well, I mean, smoked weed when I was younger, but like the first true experience I had with plant medicine medicine that I was intentional about just like healing trauma and healing my body was 5MEO DMT, and that was nuts, man. You know, so 5MEO is like from the poison from the back of a toad. Oh yeah. So my intention behind 5MEO was I felt like I had some stored trauma I needed to release. I felt I was like holding stuff in my body was causing physical pain, mental issues. And I actually did this about a year before we left for Ecuador before I had my mental breakdown. So that was my intention. My intentions were truly good. So I decided to do it. My wife's brother owns a plant medicine, I don't know what you call it, down in Costa Rica. It's like a treatment. Treatment center. Yeah. But he had one of his practitioners come up to our house and administer the five MEO. So me, me and my wife both did it. I was not prepared for what was gonna happen. I remember watching a video and like briefly, like, hey, you might experience like you think you're gonna die. Like, and I just like brushed it off, like, oh, that'd be just a bad reaction, or like that happens, people say that with medication you take. Like, I didn't take that serious. But I smoked it, I set some intentions, sat down on the floor, took a couple inhales, and within like I don't know, five seconds, I was pretty much out of it. I do remember like very quickly saying out loud, I don't like this, I don't want this, I don't want to do it. I remember trying to get up and they pushed me back down, and that's pretty much all I remember. Now, I think so. I had an ego death, which a lot of people have had that now that I'm researching more into this, but I literally thought I died. And I think I had that because I really struggle with control. I have a lot of control issues, so and that's a pretty common theme with people that do plant medicine like that. They can have ego deaths that struggle with control. And and it only got better when I accepted that I died. Like I was literally, my my heart, I felt like was literally beating out of my chest. And I'm like, I had this massive fear, and like I couldn't, I can't you can't even explain what was happening when you're in that state of mind.

Host 3:04:22

Did you have a struggle mentally with the fact that you had previously been an addict and now you're doing this thing, even though it's very intentional setting? And I want to be crystal clear with the audience too, man. I I'm a proponent of controlled psychedelic use. I don't think it's something that should be used recreationally. I think it's like to your point, should be set setting intentions because there's a lot of bad things that could happen if you do it in a wrong environment. But and I just want to preface that before we continue this conversation. But how did you how did you wrestle with that with your previous life, knowing that this medication could still try to help you?

SPEAKER_00 3:04:51

Yeah, I did have a little bit of reservation about it, but knowing my intentions behind it and why I was doing it, I was okay with that. Yeah. But how did that experience help you? Yeah, so I think what helped me was like when I finally accepted the fact that I was gonna die, like I literally was sitting there and be like, I'm dead. Like I'm literally I'm not gonna say goodbye to my kids. Like, I can't say goodbye to my wife. This is how I'm going out. Some random dude just made me smoke this and I'm dead. And and once I accepted that, it all released. Wow. And I like, and then it was like bliss after that. Like, so I gave up total control and accepted the fact that I had no control anymore, and it all got better. Would I ever do five MEO again? No, no, no way. But an interesting thing that came out of that too was like, especially like two weeks afterwards, like I just felt this immense amount of peace after the session. But I had been, I was addicted to affrin for years and years. My nose is always congested. Then I moved from that to trying to get off the afferin to Pseudafed, which has ephedrin in it, which is terrible for you. But I was taking a Pseudafed every day. Once I did 5MEO, it was the weirdest thing. I never took a Pseudafed again in my life. I don't know how that happened, but so those are a couple positive things. It just 5MEO shifted my entire perspective on reality, honestly. Like, I could never describe like what happened during that session. Like it it's unexplainable. But after that, just my whole view on life kind of shifted too.

Host 3:06:44

What did uh was your wife's experience similar to yours or just completely different?

SPEAKER_00 3:06:48

No, hers was fantastic. She she loved every minute of it. Hers was all about love and peace, and yeah.

Host 3:06:55

But that's kind of like a testament to her personality as well, though, right? Yeah, you did combo. I I had never heard of that. Somebody recently else had told me they don't know what what is it, and how was that experience?

SPEAKER_00 3:07:07

Yeah, that was more of a purge, like a cleanse, kind of like ayahuasca. Well, the combo is not a psychedelic, so you don't have any hallucination or anything like that at all. I literally have like marks on my arm. So they basically take they burn like anywhere from five to eight holes on your arm, then they put the poison on top of it, and then you get extremely, extremely sick. Like when I say purge, it comes, it's coming out both ends. Like more sick than you could ever imagine. It lasts for about an hour. Like your whole, you just your whole body swells, but it's great for just cleaning out your system, it's good for mental clarity, it's good for anxiety, it's good for depression. I did that quite a few times, and I really noticed a lot of benefits from it. I haven't done it in a long time. Like I've I've kind of felt called, and like that is just putting yourself through hell. Like, there's no like nothing fun about that. But yeah.

Host 3:08:04

I'm gonna take your word on that one. And then one of the other things you said that was pretty beneficial for you was ketamine therapy.

SPEAKER_00 3:08:12

Yeah. So and that's kind of gaining some traction. Oh, yeah. For sure. I actually did ketamine for the first time, I think in 22. After all this had happened, after I discovered cold therapy, I I worked myself into a panic. Like I had three teeth pulled up here, and when they pulled one of them, it pulled a bunch of bone out with it and caused a sinus perforation. So I had a hole from my mouth into my sinuses, so I literally could breathe air through my mouth into my sinus cavity, and it was not healing. So like I just worked myself up into a panic and I had a panic attack again for the first time in a long time. And you know, I was starting to do cold exposure again. I mean, I I hadn't been doing cold exposure, but it just wasn't getting me over that hump. So I decided to try ketamine, and with ketamine and cold exposure, I really, really I found it beneficial. I initially did six treatments at once within like over a two-week period. And then I would go back like every six months. I actually did a ketamine session last Wednesday for the first time in a year and a half. But it's kind of like just a booster refresh.

Host 3:09:34

How how long does it last and kind of you know what are the kind of explained like kind of how 5MEO DMT helped you? Like what's what's the ketopine like?

SPEAKER_00 3:09:44

Yeah, ketamine's an hour. I think now today, like you can even take a pill.

Host 3:09:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:09:49

But I do an IV, I go to an actual ketamine clinic, they put me in a bed, put headphones on, this bed vibrates. It's a really cool experience. You know, I've heard some people can like go back and revisit past experiences, experiences and kind of work through those. I've never had that. I've actually never had a profound experience in a ketamine session. Honestly, I don't even really like it that much, but it's the the effects afterwards for the week or two afterwards, it it just creates a shift in my mindset and thinking. A lot of gratitude, a lot more perspective on things, just kind of a reset. But I know, you know, people in the military, firefighters, cops that struggle with PTSD. It's great for PTSD. It's good for depression. I know a lot of people that use it for depression.

Host 3:10:43

I never knew my real father, but I never had a chance to interact with him. And by the time I was old enough to find him, he was dead. The very first time I did ketamine, I had a full-on conversation with my real father. Yeah, it was totally unexpected. I wasn't thinking about that. That it was so it that was a very unique experience. I I kind of attribute ketamine as to like you're gonna have a dream and you're gonna remember all of it when you wake up. That was my experience. But it's different for everybody. Um so I was just curious as to kind of kind of your thoughts. My understanding is ketamine's to your point a lot, it doesn't last quite as long. Um and you know, this is something I I kind of ask everybody as well, and I have my own thoughts on it too, and that's maybe something we can have a conversation about. But how do you balance your Christian faith with using, you know, psychedelics?

SPEAKER_00 3:11:29

Yeah, I don't know, man. I honestly don't think too much about it because I know what my intentions are. Sure. So it doesn't it doesn't bother me too much. I'm sure a lot of people have opinions on it, but for me personally, I know why I'm doing it.

Host 3:11:46

Yeah. So it's funny, man, because I've had a lot of these conversations with people sitting in that chair who've done psychedelics, and a lot of people that have done psychedelics have had the extremely spiritual experiences.

SPEAKER_01 3:11:56

Yeah.

Host 3:11:57

And so it's, you know, it's it's always a curious conversation to have. Well, kind of as we, you know, kind of close out this interview, I still had a couple like just oddball questions for you that I I I wanted to ask you. Some of them having to do with, you know, business and and some of them had to do just on some medical topics that you and I had talked about through the course of prepping and planning and just in the last you know day or two. As far as like desert plunge and and your business, because I know there's you know folks out there that are either you know in a small business, looking to start a small business. Like, what was what was your initial investment into your business to get started, if you don't mind me asking?

SPEAKER_00 3:12:30

Yeah. Initial investment was 116,000. Wow. I didn't have plans to go that high. Like I think I was at 60,000. And I'm like, all right, I'm capping it. I'm not going any further. Like, this is where I draw the line. But I saw the potential there, and I'm like, all right, I'll keep going. And I was I was willing to go to 200. And like I was not gonna go past that, but like that was my breaking point.

Host 3:12:55

But did you have like a tax person or business advisor helping you, or you were just I mean, you just relying on your own experience and and your own kind of research of the market, etc.?

SPEAKER_00 3:13:04

Yeah, dude, I was going in blind. Like, yeah, I had no there was a couple mentors I I I talked to prior to, like, hey, this is where I'm at, this is what I think I'm doing, like just to get some advice, like a sanity check. Yeah. No, obviously nobody in the industry, but guys that have been there, done, ran their own businesses for a long time. So, you know, doing that, but how long did it take you for you finally took your first paycheck? I think I went about six months before I took took my first paycheck, before I started paying myself a small salary. Yeah. How do you handle warranty issues? Yeah, we have a one-year manufacturer warranty. Um, actually, right now we're running a special where we're giving you a two-year manufacturer warranty. So, but typically a one-year, and then the option to buy a an extended one or extended two years, so a total of three years of coverage. Honestly, like if you call, like if something breaks on like month 14, like we're not gonna hold you over the colds for that. We're gonna replace it for free. But the nice thing about any warranty issue is though that it gets out quickly. We're shipping it out with like in one to three business days, and you're back up and running right away. Awesome.

Host 3:14:23

Tell me about the customer you couldn't make happy.

SPEAKER_00 3:14:25

Okay, this was like man, man, maybe the like the fourth or fifth plunge we ever sold, and it was in Arizona, and I uh honestly I think something was wrong with a chiller, but I just didn't know that. Like, he he was not following our recommendations, he was letting it sit out full sun blasted in the middle of like August in Arizona, which we don't recommend. Like, one, the sun is gonna trash your stuff, like especially in a climate like Arizona, and it's like 118 degrees out. But his chiller, he wanted it at 39, and it was like he he couldn't get it below like 42. Ultimately, it was just a defective chiller, but it was early on, and I didn't fully understand that yet. But I was like trying, I was kind of blaming him a little bit, like, hey, you got to keep it covered. Because honestly, like even in full sun blasting on it, they'll they'll go to 39, but we just don't recommend that. But he was pissed, and all this is the only return we've ever accepted, but I I took it back from him because ultimately, like, and I'm not gonna say I'm gonna take a bunch of returns back, but he's the one and only person that I just wasn't gonna be able to make happy. Ultimately, what we could have done is just switched out the chiller and it would have been fine. But I ended up I literally drove to his house and picked it up and brought it back to the shop.

Host 3:15:51

Yeah, every now and then you get that customer where you know they're gonna be a headache and you're like, Yeah, let's just let's just be done with this. Yeah. Yeah. How do you handle scaling a business like yours? Like, I mean, and I've heard this, you know, I've heard a I've had a couple friends that now have successful businesses, and I'm always curious as the scaling part. And I know there's no secret sauce in it, but like, how did you handle that?

SPEAKER_00 3:16:14

Yeah, so back in 2017 when I was with my electrical company, we grew really, really fast. One, it was hard to keep up with, and then two, we gross, we grew so fast we really weren't understanding our costs. So I've always been kind of cautious. Like it's good to grow, but growing too fast is risky. So I've intentionally not grown as fast as I think we could have for those reasons because I think it it ultimately will hurt your business if you're not ready for it. And it's gonna hurt your customers. If you can't respond to your customers in a timely manner, if you can't get product out in time, all for the sake of trying to scale as quick as possible, it's not worth it.

Host 3:16:57

Yeah, somebody told me one time, you know, you got to plan for success, and that actually takes planning. And I think a lot of people don't plan for success. I didn't do it in this podcast, I didn't really think this podcast was gonna grow as quick as it did, and we're still trying to, you know, balance, you know, content with the guests and not overdo it so that we don't lose the quality. So that I definitely resonate with that. I'm kind of switching things into some medical stuff because you and I have are pretty passionate about some of these questions I'm about to ask you. But SSRIs, man, do you think doctors are over prescribing them?

SPEAKER_00 3:17:29

Oh, 100%, dude. I mean, it's all a money game. And I mean, I mean, I could talk for a long time about this, but I have a friend, his name is he's an influencer, Cold Plunge Cam. Go check him out if you guys want some good content. He was on, he got put on SSRIs when he was a kid, and now he's trying to get off them in his, I think his late 20s or early 30s now, but he's just sharing his journey about how hard and difficult it's been to get off these SSRIs. Or Sarais, and he is struggling. And I don't think doctors know what they're prescribing, to be honest. Like they know they could they make a commission off of it. I mean, they'll push certain brands just because they're making money off of it, dude. And I don't know all the ins and outs of all this, but I know it's a money-driven industry. And like, especially for SSRIs, nobody knows what's going to work. So you're like throwing darts at a wall to see what's going to work. You're you're getting, you know, playing guinea pig. Well, it's like a psychiatrist.

Host 3:18:32

If you go see a psychiatrist, they're gonna give you medications.

SPEAKER_00 3:18:35

Yeah, yeah. And just the side effects from it, getting off these medications, like they'll tell you, oh yeah, there's no side effects from getting off. That's complete bullshit, dude. Like, like I said with that Suboxone that I was on, is a two-month detox. This guy, cold plunge cam, it's been like a three-year process for him, and he's still not completely off his SSRIs. Like the toll it will take on you mentally is is crazy. You can't just get off these things.

Host 3:19:07

So what's what's your thoughts on the pharmaceutical industry and how they're kind of pushing some of the stuff?

SPEAKER_00 3:19:11

Yeah, I mean, it's I think it's just all money driven. They're not looking out. I I don't think they're like out to make us sick, but they're not out for our best interest. It's it's all a money game and they're in it for the money.

Host 3:19:22

There's no money in the cure, bro. Yeah, exactly. I mean, we're seeing that huge in the veteran community. And again, dude, we'll probably get this will probably get suppressed on YouTube. But I mean, uh, you know, the SSRI industry just in the Department of Veterans Affairs, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. And, you know, they're there's this fight now to legalize, you know, psychedelics or at least for treatment. But the problem is people that are doing psychedelics one time are not ever having to use SSRIs. Right. The of course, you know, things like ibegain or ayahuasca, they don't want them legalized because then again, it's gonna kill a multi-billion dollar industry. But you know, when you consider that I think the I think the number now is like 40 veterans a day now or are losing. When you start adding suicide, addiction, ODs. And then, you know, we always wonder, well, what's going on? Well, it's like, dude, you're giving people the medication that gives them, I mean, suicidal ideation is a huge part of the SSR industry, and it's something that's not talked about. And again, we'll probably get this suppressed for saying this, but it's true, man. I mean, you know, you there's you know, a lot of people that are taking those SSRIs, they're having those thoughts. Like you talked about it, like, you know, like that that side effect. So it's, you know, hopefully, man. I know there's some some Congress people and some, I know the state of Texas is actually leading the charge for Ibogaine, uh, which is really cool to see. We've talked about IBogaine on the podcast in the past, man. So it's you know, I'm hopeful, man. I mean, they're finding short-term studies with psilocybin and ecstasy as well. Like one ecstasy treatment, I think, in a study they did was was like curing people. So it's it's other stuff out there. You can't help but wonder.

SPEAKER_00 3:21:01

And I will say, like, there can be a time and place for SSRIs. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm not saying nobody should ever get on them, but to add to that, it's not just SSRIs, like the problem with this medication is we're not fixing anybody, like it's just a band-aid. Yeah, and it's if you don't deal with the underlying issue, it's right. You're not dealing with the underlying issue, so that's the problem.

Host 3:21:21

Yeah. You talked a little bit about AA and the 12-step programs, and and again, you were pretty clear that it does work for some people, didn't it didn't work. What what do you think's broken, or what would what do you think would have helped you a little bit better in AA?

SPEAKER_00 3:21:36

I don't know, man. I don't know if anything is broken. I think that was just my perception of it. I think they're probably stubborn and set in their ways, and they're they're not changing for anything. So this is how we've always done it, bro. Yeah, this is how we do it. Uh, this is how you stay sober. So I don't know, for me, maybe I just needed to try some different places. But to me, it was just a bunch of people there that were unhappy that felt like, hey, this is this is where I'm at in life, and this is just what I'm stuck with. And just standing up every time saying, hi, I'm Matt, and I'm an alcoholic, like continuing to label yourself over and over and over again, like that's not who I need to be. Yeah.

Host 3:22:22

So yeah, good uh and then the last thing, something that you and I have talked about actually since we met is you know, college versus trades. Why do you think there's still such a stigma between the two of them?

SPEAKER_00 3:22:36

Well, yeah, I mean, it's getting pushed so hard by society, like you need to go to college to be successful. And I think Yeah, I don't know why there was a stigma with like construction workers, these dirty, grungy construction workers, like can't make money. But yeah, that's that's far from the truth. I mean, I didn't go to college. You know, I'm not gonna push my kids to go to college if they want to, and it's a good choice. Like, hey, if my daughter wants to or son wants to become a nurse, like, okay, yeah, that's a good college career path. Like, if you're going to business, study business, make sure you like get into an internship, not just show up to these business classes and get no real life experience. Because otherwise, you're gonna graduate college and you got the college experience.

Host 3:23:22

I got a degree in psychology. Cool story, bro. What are you gonna do with it?

SPEAKER_00 3:23:25

50 grand in debt, you know what I mean? If not, go. I mean, a lot of these companies now aren't requiring college degrees anymore. The like the trades, you don't need a college degree, and you can go get an education, get it paid for, and you can work and get paid. So, I I mean, I'm full, I'm all for not going into debt for some mean meaningless degree.

Host 3:23:51

Awesome, man. Well, as we kind of wrapped up, you know, wrap up this interview, dude. I just want to just thank you, man. I mean, it's not easy to come on a podcast and you know, fillet your soul and everything that went wrong in your life. But, you know, there's definitely this resiliency and this determination that that you that we found and heard through your story and that you're still finding, right? And I think that's I still think that's super cool. I I mentioned it when you talked about it, but it's like, man, for you it's not completely over, right? You still have to battle with it. And I think that's most people, dude. Like, you know, there is no this isn't Disney World, man. Like, you know what I mean? You want to if you want to, if you want fantasy, go watch a movie or go to Disneyland. So, but I just wanted to personally say thank you for being willing for for for making this trip and for making an awesome and affordable cold punch too, dude. I really appreciate that because I I use mine every day. What is it that you really want people to take away from your story?

SPEAKER_00 3:24:47

You know, I think a lot of people struggle with uh victim mentality and like, hey, this is what happened to me in life, this is what somebody did to me, and this has affected my life in a negative way because of that, and my life is what it is, and like that is something I do struggle with with people that have that victim mentality because you are the only person that can change the the trajectory of your life. Nobody else can do that for you, or no circumstance is going to do that for you. You have the power to change that and control that. Now, have I gone through the have people gone through a lot worse situations than me? Absolutely. Like, I'm not denying like terrible things happen to people, right? But I know a lot of people that have gone through some terrible things, and it really it's just perspective on how you view it and what you decide to do with that. So yeah, like I could have kind of chalked it up to I'm an alcoholic and this is who I am, or I'm a drug addict, and you know, I'm just gonna accept that reality. But yeah, I don't know. I kind of felt like you know, it's there's there's reward through perseverance. I love that dude.

Host 3:26:05

Five years from now, where do you see Desert Plunge?

SPEAKER_00 3:26:09

I hope we're more than just a cold plunge company. I hope we're a health and wellness brand. We have we're in the middle of planning a retreat next year in May. So we're really excited about that. I want to build more community around Desert Plunge. I would love just to offer more of that type of stuff. Who knows? Maybe we'll start doing saunas at some point. I'd like to do red light, other things like that, but I want to be a health and wellness brand.

Host 3:26:37

What's some of your personal goals? You got some big things going on. Yeah what do you what are you training or preparing for personally?

SPEAKER_00 3:26:43

Yeah, I'm doing high rocks in Phoenix in January, which I'm excited for. And then I'm doing a hundred mile ultra run in Zion in Utah in April, which you know, I'm I'm really excited for that, but it's gonna be a challenge. And then in May, I'm doing rim to rim to rim Grand Canyon. We're doing that in one day.

Host 3:27:04

What is that?

SPEAKER_00 3:27:05

So you go from south rim to north rim, back to south rim, and no breaks in between. Typically, people like go from south rim, camp at the bottom, go up to north rim, or they'll go south to north and then stay the night. But we're doing it all in one shot. So trying to do it in like 18 hours. So doing that with like 30 guys. Um, so that'll be fun. So got some physical challenging goals coming up this next year that I'm excited about.

Host 3:27:33

Stoked. Last thing I want to close with, man. I know your wife has been a huge part of your life, your success, your business. Anything you want to say to her?

SPEAKER_01 3:27:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:27:45

I just appreciate my wife so much. I mean, she's my rock. She's ultimately, I've said this to people before, but you know, I don't think Desert Plunge would be where it's at today without her. Just the unwavering support that she gives me. I appreciate it so much. And I love her. I love you. I love that, dude.

Host 3:28:04

Yeah, you got a beautiful daughter and a son. Yeah. What do you want to tell them?

SPEAKER_00 3:28:11

Love you guys. You know how much I love you. I'm super proud of you. You both are great kids, and I look forward to just continuing to see you guys grow up and continue to see your success in everything you do. Awesome, dude.

Host 3:28:25

Well, hey, I just want to thank everybody for tuning into this podcast episode. This was something that was very, very personal to me. It was something I was not only excited to do, but really excited to share the story, to share, just to share Matt's journey, but also to share this product that he made that we've been testing now for well over two months. I use it every single day. So hopefully, you know, now that you know the person and you know the business, I really hope that that you'll get you'll get behind that and support that. We're gonna announce, we're gonna make an announcement, uh a joint announcement here in just a little bit. So stay tuned later on for that. And you know, if you guys could continue to just, you know, like, subscribe. If you're listening to this on iTunes or Spotify, if you could follow us, that really helps this podcast grow. It's kind of one area that we really need to grow in. So, anyway, thanks again for all the support. Stay safe out there, and if you can't be safe, be violent out here.