Short Story Long: Life Lessons from Leaders, Coaches, and Entrepreneurs
Short Story Long shares life-changing stories of growth, resilience, and reinvention from leaders, coaches, and everyday people navigating pivotal turning points. Hosted by leadership coach Beki Fraser, each episode explores the moments that shaped someone's path and the lessons we can all learn.
Every other week, Beki follows up with a Skill Builder episode that breaks down insights from the previous story into practical tools, reflection prompts, and leadership actions.
Whether you're building a business, transitioning into a new career, or learning to lead with greater purpose, this podcast offers real stories and practical strategies to help you grow. New episodes every other week.
Short Story Long: Life Lessons from Leaders, Coaches, and Entrepreneurs
No More Autopilot: Claim Your Leadership Agency — Tammy Daniels’ Story
Have a story or inflection point to share? Tap here to message us — we’d love to hear it.
What happens when you finally take control of your career? Tammy Daniels' story reveals how one pivotal decision transformed her professional trajectory and personal understanding.
After years of following the work at established law firms, Tammy found herself at a crossroads. The legal work had become "mundane and perfunctory," leaving her in a state of complacency. When faced with yet another firm transition, she made an unexpected choice: starting her own practice. This decision marked the first time she exercised true agency over her career path.
The journey wasn't straightforward. A brief partnership dissolved after 18 months, leaving Tammy truly solo. Financial uncertainty loomed, and her personal life underwent significant changes as her marriage ended shortly after her career shift. Yet these challenges revealed crucial insights about herself: she could be decisively confident, she needed different types of support than she'd initially recognized, and she possessed the resilience to create her own professional destiny.
Today, as CEO of the Detroit Land Bank, Tammy brings these hard-won lessons to her leadership approach. She emphasizes to her team what experience taught her: "Opportunities come when they see you excel and going above and beyond. They tap you because they see you doing it." She encourages team members to demonstrate excellence rather than waiting for recognition, while creating space for them to articulate their career aspirations.
Tammy's story illuminates the transformative power of taking control of your professional journey. Whether you're contemplating a career pivot or seeking more fulfillment in your current role, her experience offers valuable guidance for navigating uncertainty with confidence and purpose. Listen now to discover how embracing career agency might change everything.
Connect with Beki on LinkedIn: Linkedin.com/in/BekiFraser
Learn more about her coaching: TheIntrovertedSkeptic.com
Follow Short Story Long's LinkedIn Page: Linkedin.com/showcase/shortstorylongpod
Get her book, C.O.A.C.H. Y.O.U.: The Introverted Skeptic’s Guide to Leadership - Amazon
Short Story Long is produced by Crowned Culture Media LLC
The opportunities that come to people are not. People are not going to tap you on the shoulder and say, tammy, you want this opportunity. They come when they see you excel and they see you you know going above and beyond, and they see you doing really well at something. They tap you you because they see you doing it. So you can't waiting for somebody to recognize that you're a great person because you just are. That's not realistic.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Becky. Welcome to Short Story Long. In this podcast we discuss ways you can integrate who you are into how you lead. Today I am joined by Tammy Daniels, who embodies a blend of legal expertise, strategic leadership and heartfelt public service. Tammy brings both sharp strategy and deep compassion to her work. She's driven by keeping her community at the center and making sure equity and access guides her decision-making. She's known for her persistence, vision and a relentless belief in what people can accomplish. I'm so happy she's agreed to talk with me about a key inflection point in her life. Thanks, tammy, for joining me today.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Becky, for having me. I'm honored that you asked me to participate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I always enjoy our conversations, and so today, just to get us on track and focused on the inflection point, why don't you talk to me a little bit about that specific moment or that specific period in your life that we'll really talk about today?
Speaker 1:years ago when I made the decision to go out on my own into private practice, which I did for about 10 years before I joined the land bank in 2015. So, yeah, I'm going to talk about that decision and how it was a departure from how I operated professionally.
Speaker 2:I operated professionally, yeah, so one of the key things in there is went out on my own. That can be scary, and it also implies that maybe you weren't on your own prior to that right. So what was your career like prior to that?
Speaker 1:So as you indicated, I'm a lawyer by training and so for I don't want to date myself, but for the almost probably 10 years prior I graduated from law school, I clerked, I did a federal clerkship and then I went to work at a nice size firm in downtown Detroit and I was at that firm for a number of years.
Speaker 1:I was working on a project and the partner that I was working with decided at some point that she was not happy at the firm and she took all the work and she moved to another firm and, you know, all the work went in. A substantial number of team members went with the work and I was one of the team members that went with the work. And then, another couple of years later, she was about to make that same move, she was moving to another firm and at that point I you know I was dabbling in, you know, thinking about okay, what would it look like if I went out on my own? And so, instead of following her to the firm, one of the other attorneys who worked with at the firm, we decided to go out on our own.
Speaker 2:I'm just curious. When you and this other person were having the conversation about going out on your own, what were some of the factors that had you thinking about that?
Speaker 1:So I think, you know, there was a level of complacency. I think that caused us to be where we were. The work wasn't really exciting, gratifying, and we had collectively begun to think about doing work that was more gratifying, where it felt like it was more of a challenge. And so there was a point in time where the partner was about to move again, and it was, you know, she was aware that we were not happy. She was moving and so she was taking the work, moving and so she was taking the work and we decided that, instead of going to get another job, we decided to go out on our own and we started a practice together.
Speaker 2:How possible was it for you to stay with that original firm and just sort of go with the flow? Or was she taking?
Speaker 1:some of that work which sometimes happens.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't really a place to stay.
Speaker 1:It wasn't really a place to stay, but there was always the opportunity to go work for another firm. I will say, up until that point I had not really thought hard about like the decision making behind do I go or I stay? Or I just hadn't thought about it. And so it was at that moment where I was like, okay, I have the opportunity, I can go. You know, go get another job and work for somebody else, or I could try doing this on my own and see what that feels like, see what that looks like, and so and yet that's kind of a risk to jump out like that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely and certainly jumping out at that stage with a partner gives you someone to bounce ideas off from and to work together with and everything. What do you remember thinking about when you decided, yeah, let's do this, let's just go out and do this partnership and we'll just, like you know, see what happens with it. So you know.
Speaker 1:I don't. I don't remember being that acutely in tune to the risk. I don't remember, you know, recognizing the, the impact. I was probably very recently married. Maybe I've been married a couple years. She had two younger children and you would think we would be attuned to the risk because of you know, our personal lives. But I think there was, for the first time in a long time, a level of excitement that kind of overshadowed the risk. I've said this as I've talked to young people. I don't believe I personally I was not one who really took control or I had agency over my career at that time, prior to this decision. Like I felt, like I was just kind of like following the work without really thinking, like, is this really what I want to do? I never was. I wasn't thinking that way. I think I was more in the mode where this is the work I'm doing, this is where it's going. You know, let's go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's interesting that you were describing the kind of legal work that you were doing before you went out that it was really this not that gratifying, and you know. And so there's this idea that I have, as you're describing this, that oh hey, we can do interesting work, we can choose what kind of work we want to do and we really get a chance to kind of set a course for ourselves that we didn't get to before. And it is kind of surprising, right, like you say, yeah, we weren't really thinking about the risk, because in hindsight that has to feel like wow, what was I thinking when I did that hindsight?
Speaker 1:that has to feel like, wow, what was I thinking when I did that? Right, and quite frankly, it feels like it was like a pivot, like the Tammy before the decision would have been thinking about the risk, would have been thinking like, oh, wow, that's a risky proposition. But I don't remember feeling afraid, or that's not true. I remember feel like, okay, how am I going to make sure that I can do all the things I need to do? But I don't remember. I just knew I was gonna have to work harder to make that happen, like there was no world where I didn't think I could do it. It was just like how much work, how much more? How much more work, how much more energy? You know, how much more hustle do I have to put out in order to make that happen for myself under these set of circumstances?
Speaker 2:And so so how much was that part of the pre version of you in terms of I can hustle, I can do the work, I can make things happen? So the pre-decision.
Speaker 1:Tammy didn't have to hustle because that was probably part of the problem. I was probably operating on autopilot because I was accustomed to the work, I knew all the players, you know. It became, you know, maybe more mundane and perfunctory as opposed to oh, let's dig into these set of facts. Let's dig into this case, which is more of what I got when I made the decision to go out on, for us to go out on our own and take our own cases and make those decisions. Like sitting down with clients and, you know, helping them figure out how, you know the path and you know, helping them understand what to expect. Like having those really meaningful conversations and helping them understand that you know this is litigation. It's not going to happen overnight, it's going to be a. It's a. It's a hurry up to slow down or hurry up to slow down or hurry up.
Speaker 2:That's just the pattern of it up to slow down and hurry up. That's just the pattern of it. So, as you went out and stepped into this partnership with this other person you had talked about, you worked with her for a while. Both of you had lives that had developed outside of work as well. You jump into this future, maybe with some planning, but also, maybe not, the recognition of all that that was going to mean for you. What were some of the things that you learned about yourself during that time?
Speaker 1:that's a lot. So I think the probably the most impactful personal education or learning I got from it is that I could be a very decisive decision maker and and that it is almost kind of like when I finally flip the switch I would I can process and make decisions and keep it moving, because we went out and we did that together for probably the better part of a year, maybe a year and a half, and then I ended up on my own for the remainder of time and so because that relationship did not pan out which probably if I had paused in the first decision and kind of done the analysis like the compatibility would that work I probably would have seen that maybe that wasn't the best decision.
Speaker 2:That makes me think of. You have friends and then you have friends that you can travel with right.
Speaker 2:It's sort of like you have colleagues and there are people that you can do entrepreneurial ventures with and that group isn't really the same, absolutely. And even with just thinking about some of the adventures that I have gone on and some of the joint work that I've done with people, I remember one instance where I was doing some training for an organization and my partner and I just, would you know, toss the baton back and forth, back and forth, no problem at all. It's almost like my thoughts ended with hers and she would just finish. What was happening. Happening and in other situations that I choose not to reflect on a whole lot anymore, are those moments where it's like, wow, this was just really a hard path to follow. It feels like it's more work than what it needs to be when you think about who you like to work with and what are the characteristics of that. Now, what are the key and important elements that you want for the people who work around you?
Speaker 1:For me, I feel like there has to be a shared commitment to the cause, like a shared commitment to the goal, because people are so different and how they show up professionally is very differently how they show up personally. And so you know I don't necessarily try to dictate. You know if they are a quick decision maker like I am, or if, and so you know I don't necessarily try to dictate. You know if they are a quick decision maker like I am, or if they're, you know if they procrastinate. That's not something I do, but you can still be effective in a lot of ways if you are different from me, and I appreciate that. But I feel like that shared mission, that shared commitment to the mission, will have you show up as your best self and then that will make the work. You will show up as your best self and the work will benefit from you showing up as your best self.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like this is so meaningful in a variety of ways where you're talking about, I'm now taking risks that I wasn't taking before. I'm now recognizing that discernment around that joint mission piece, recognizing, maybe more than before correct me if I'm wrong that having people around you who don't think the same as you is actually really an asset and a benefit for you to have. What were some of the other things that you were realizing at this time in your life?
Speaker 1:Well, for me, I think the most pivotal and most important thing I realized is that I had the control to make that decision, like I didn't have to let other people make decisions for me, that this was my life, my career, my choice, and it was very empowering at the time. But as I reflect back, I think it was even more. As I've grown older and as I've gotten further along in my career, I realized how critically important that decision was for me personally and professionally. And it's so interesting that when you talk to young people, they are very different. Like a person that currently is at the age I was when I made this decision oh, they would have made that decision years ago. Like that, it would not have even been a thought. They would have said, nope, I'm not doing it, I'm going to go do this, and I think that's wonderful that young people have taken much more control over their career and their career paths. I didn't have that. I was not that person.
Speaker 1:But as I have matriculated through my career and gotten older and gotten more mature, I do see that show up in ways and I'm really proud of myself when I see it showing up like, okay, somebody offered you, wanted you to do something and it potentially could be wonderful, but it didn't. It wasn't consistent with what I wanted, and so I said no, I'm like that's, that's good, timmy. You said no, you didn't want to do it and you didn't do it, and I just, I'm just proud of myself that I can, can I now am able to do that like real time about things that you know how it fits into my life, like every offer that comes my way is filtered through the analysis of Tammy. How does this benefit you? Is this what you want to do? And if it currently isn, is there a way for you to modify it, to make it? And if not, then it's a no, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and really what I hear you describing, there is this desire for essentially a win-win and that joint mission, that joint goal. If you can't see that happening, then it's okay to let it go, because you wouldn't have it would probably be and I'd love your thoughts on this a little bit reminiscent of that partnership that actually didn't pan out and nothing bad against the person, it's just about. It didn't pan out and it didn't go the way that we expected that it would.
Speaker 1:And it's really sort of that we weren't both winning going to win and making a decision that's best for me under those circumstances. Because, yeah, in that particular scenario, that relationship, that we were only partners for a brief amount of time hindsight is you know 2020, but that was not a win-win and I feel like if I had been in a position to think about it, if I had the wherewithal to be thinking about it with the right mindset, I would have made a different decision.
Speaker 1:So yeah no, no hard feelings, it's just that wasn't the, that wasn't a good mix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Just because somebody makes you laugh doesn't mean that they can be your business partner.
Speaker 2:Fair point. Fair point Well so when you went out solo, I mean you were thinking about these are all of the things that I have to do. I have to amp up my hustle, I need to be able to do all of these things. Now you have to do it alone, right? How did you have to think about yourself differently once you went solo?
Speaker 1:So luckily that partnership did provide a runway, because so much of like building the practice required the hustle and to access all of those skill sets and to access those relationships that would provide you work and all of that good stuff. So that 18 months of us trying to do it together was like the ground, the education for me to figure out okay, how do I do this independently. So, yeah, that was a great education for and prepared me to be able to then be on my own for another what?
Speaker 2:almost seven years, okay, so successfully found your way through that solo path as well. One of the things about working in a law firm is that you're working with multiple clients and working with different things. In those moments, how much did you feel like the work that you did while you were with the first firm right originally. Doing that work actually helped you prepare for the skill set that you needed when you went out on your own.
Speaker 1:So I think, quite frankly, working in the law firm, the most important skill set that it taught me and that was invaluable as I was out on my own was to bill my clients for the work that I had done. Because when you work in a law firm, you bill time, you bill every moment of time and you make sure that you are doing it on a regular basis and being programmed to do that kicked in so that I build time. I made sure my invoices went out. I made sure, and so many of my at the time counterparts who were out in private practice, they just they were not accustomed to doing that and they would, you know, six months later, be trying to chase a client down because they they needed to get their money.
Speaker 1:It's like you didn't invoice them every month and they were like no. And I'm like, oh, you invoice them every month. And they were like no. And I'm like, oh, you got to start doing that. A squeaky wheel does not get oil. You got to put your bill in front of them on a regular basis and let them accept and know that having you to work for them means they need to pay you on a regular basis. And so, yes, working in a law firm was critically, that was like that's the most important. That was the most important, I think, skill that I learned along with, just you know, I worked in the court and so learning just like how to how to operate as a lawyer.
Speaker 2:But how to operate as an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1:Yes, that I learned, yes. So, critical skill.
Speaker 2:Yes, that whole. Teach them to expect that an invoice is coming, and teach them that this is that I learned. Yes, so critical skill having this salary into this position of not necessarily having that same amount of revenue coming in. And so that invoicing and getting paid is important, right.
Speaker 1:And not that consistent, steady, like you know. You knew exactly what you were getting paid when you work for somebody else, but you know you got to kill what you need to eat.
Speaker 2:Yes, so feast and famine sort of runs in there quite a bit. Yes, so all of famine sort of runs in there quite a bit, yes. So all of this stuff was happening professionally. You've mentioned a couple of times that this period of your life was really both professionally and personally. What did you notice about your personal life through this period?
Speaker 1:Hmm, about your personal life through this period? Hmm, so, while it was definitely a period of, like, growth and self and, like me, learning more about myself, it was also very difficult. So let's see, I went out on my own around 2006. So I got married in 2000, I think three. I got married in 2003. I went out on my own in 2006, and I was divorced by 2007. And I was in solo practice very shortly after that too. So there were a lot of breakups that happened around this time.
Speaker 1:But as for my personal life, how that was impacted by this, I would say that what it revealed to me is that maybe I had not prioritized certain relationship traits that I came to realize were critically important to me when I went out on my own and my, you know, six figures salary disappeared.
Speaker 1:What I didn't, what it, what, what replaced it was a clarity that the relationship I had at home wasn't necessarily what it needed to be, because I was still, you know, expected to show up professionally and support the family and support the household in the exact same way, even though my professional situation was very different. You know, and I'm not sure readers know, but when you're growing a business it's hard Financially. You're trying to figure out how you're going to figure it out. How are you going to make ends meet, how are you going to pay rent, how are you going to do what you need to do? And so I recognize that my then husband was more of a business partner than a partner relationship partner, because I was still expected to show up exactly the same way post-job that I did when I had the job. And so, recognizing that you don't have that level of support, it's hard to unsee that I'll say that.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, and you were going through a big flex in your life and in your career and it came with this recognition of I needed my partner to flex with me. Yes, and the expectations on that side of the table were not changing Right, and there was everything that was changing for you during that time. So it's not really surprising that you're then looking at your life going okay. So this isn't necessarily what I thought I signed up for.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, I don't even know if it's not necessarily what I thought I signed up for as much as it was. Oh, I may have signed up for this, but this is not what I really, really, really need.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I don't think, you know, he didn't show up and he didn't present as anything other than what he was. He's a good guy, great guy, but I don't I think it was more me than it was him. It was like, oh, I didn't value that importance of someone you know Showing up and saying you know it's going to be OK, I got you rubbing your back, we're going to figure this out. I didn't. I didn't contemplate that when I was doing my analysis. I didn't contemplate that when I was doing my analysis. And so, yeah, when it happened, I was like, oh, this doesn't feel like this doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I really yeah. I think that had to do with me not doing a proper me not recognizing what was important for me than it had to do with anything, right right.
Speaker 2:He showed up as him, he stayed as him and you started to change and have all of these differences.
Speaker 1:So you were bringing back.
Speaker 2:Hey, I'd like to change the game and he's going, but I kind of like the game as it was and I think it's really powerful to reflect on those kinds of things in life because over time, friendships, work, relationships, marriages, family relationships all of those things evolve and change. We don't stay the same over time and, recognizing that our needs might shift and change and it sounds like yours you became aware of some of those needs in a way that you didn't before You're aware of. You know I need more of this challenge and the work that I'm doing. I need more of this flexibility and this almost keep the ball in the court but just sort of play the game a little bit differently on the personal side as well, yeah.
Speaker 1:I need more of a cheerleader and coach as opposed to an umpire. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, mm. Hmm. Yeah, you talked a little bit about how you were changing the game in your relationship with your husband when you went out on your own and you started to recognize that this was a different expectation that you had of him. What kind of conversations were you having with him before you went out on your own to understand his thought process and what his expectations would be?
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I know we had conversations. I don't know that they were, I don't know that they were. They I'm gonna I'm gonna just say they probably were not as in-depth and thorough as they needed to be, given what was about to happen. But we did talk about like, okay, I'm gonna go out my own. I don't remember him ever saying, well, you could just go get another job. I don't ever remember that.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there was some agreement that he had that. Yes, okay, I see you doing this and it sounds a little bit as if neither one of you necessarily recognized. I mean, you said it about yourself, too, that you didn't really recognize all of the things that would change. You had a bit of a, too, that you didn't really recognize all of the things that would change. You had a bit of a list, but you didn't have a comprehensive list, because you can't. You can't know what's going to happen and what's going to land.
Speaker 1:And you know, and I also, I probably wasn't emotionally mature enough to really sit there and anticipate like how he was going to feel. I probably I mean I'll just I wasn't, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Well, and also there's a lot going on in that timeframe as well and not having that maturity frame as well and not having that maturity. Looking back now, are there any kinds of things that you think for someone on this path right now? Right, I'm jumping out, I'm going on my own maybe not a law practice, but going out on my own. What are some of the questions that you would ask now if you were in that situation?
Speaker 1:So I think now, before I even thought about marrying, I would have a conversation about what happens if we have a worst case scenario. What happens if the bottom falls out and our know shifted on its axis? Like, what does that look like? I know you can't necessarily predict it, but you know, let's walk that scenario through, because that could happen every day, all day. Like we're not promised tomorrow, tomorrow is not going to look like today. Tomorrow something horrible could happen and what does it look like?
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, I would have that conversation. I would also probably have more, more in-depth conversations about, like supporting each other, not just financially but emotionally and and, like you know, like making sure we have those conversations about, like, what truly makes you happy, are you getting fulfilled out of what you're doing, having those conversations, and so that you are so like, if I had been having those conversations, then it would probably because I'm assuming it was a bit of a shock to him that he wouldn't have been like shocked, he would have like she didn't really care for that job. Anyway, I should, you know, I should have known.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I could have seen this ship coming in a sense and and had an alert system prepared, right.
Speaker 1:And then I mean quite frankly I don't want to launch off into another whole different conversation but it's like being more financially prepared for the upsets that come in life. Like you know, at that point we were newly married. There was no such thing as an emergency fund.
Speaker 2:But you know as you get older.
Speaker 1:you know you do all the things, you check all those boxes, so you are more prepared to weather. You know storms at this stage of the game. But yeah, having those conversations.
Speaker 2:Right. The tree might fall.
Speaker 1:The furnace is likely to fail the engine may blow and you might need a new car Like yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they don't have to be traumatic things, but they can be big things that really set you off course and recognizing that those are things that you navigate together when you choose to be in that relationship.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. When you're choosing someone, you're choosing a life partner. Life is not always great and you're not always smiling. It's the good and the bad. You're not always smiling. It's the good and the bad. And just having confidence in the fact, I just feel like maybe he didn't have the confidence to know that, regardless of what decision, and maybe because I didn't have the confidence, I'm going to take responsibility, he didn't have the confidence to know that it didn't matter whether I was at this job or that job. There was no world where I was going to not try to chin the bar, go above and beyond, make sure we had everything that we needed. I was still going to be a partner in the effort. It just was going to look different and it may look different for a little while, but that I would always. I wouldn't leave him out there by himself to be trying to shoulder the blame. That was never going to be, that'd never be the my MO.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and I don't know that I've necessarily shared this with you directly about this, but I, too, sort of had a moment in my life where my partner and I just were not seeing the same way, and I wasn't married yet, but I, too, had not had those conversations, and it's really important to recognize that. Wow. So these kinds of things can really shift everything, and sometimes we have to have those conversations in order to make the best decisions for ourselves. So it's the way of looking forward and, again, sometimes you don't call it correctly and you have to figure out your next path forward.
Speaker 1:But you're right. But at least having the conversation kind of puts that marker in somebody's head that oh, we talked about when things went bad. It's not the shock, it's like okay, yeah, we just yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we talked about this and we just were hoping that this day would never come.
Speaker 1:It never happened, but okay, it's here now. Okay.
Speaker 2:Exactly so when you think about the way that you think, about what you need now Right, because, like you said, this was, by the way, becky, I'm fully.
Speaker 1:having lived this life and been and had to self-correct so many times before, I'm fully prepared to self correct at this stage as well. So but go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Well, it is where I say this a lot, right, we're all works in progress which means that every once in a while we do a proper face plant and then we pick ourselves up, shake ourselves off and we say okay.
Speaker 1:So that was a learning experience.
Speaker 2:I do not repeat Zero stars do not recommend Right when you think about where you are in your career right now and you have teams of people reporting into you.
Speaker 1:How does this experience inform how you lead now? That's a tough one, but I feel like there has been a shift in the way.
Speaker 1:Like I said, like the younger people, there's a lot of young people who work at the organization, and so they show up differently. They show up very confident, very self-assured. They could be wrong about a lot of stuff, but at least they have that confidence and that assuredness. They they talk about what they want and where they want to go, and so I'm never one that's going to try to dissuade them, but maybe help them equip themselves with the skills and experience to take themselves where they want to go. So I feel like what it does is that it. What it has done is it has called me to show up as a leader who's trying to help people grow and to realize whatever their professional goals are, whatever those are. How do we help you achieve that? How do we recognize the people who are doing the phenomenal job and then those people who think they should, you know, be the president of the United States, but they aren't quite there. How do we get them there?
Speaker 1:Like you know how do we level up their skills, their experience to get them there so that they can take all of those steps, because I never want to be a person who one deters somebody or make I don't. I don't want anyone to operate in the space that I operated in, where I was not taking control and agency over my career, but to help empower people to do all the things that they want to do. So I feel like that's how I've taken that lesson and tried to incorporate it positively into how I lead integrated positively into how I lead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and and I know you have essentially an open door policy, like anyone in the organization can come in, make an appointment or just kind of come in and say, hey, just really want to talk to you about something that's going on for me or something I want to do Absolutely, and and you do that with some regularities there are actually people who show up at your door and and have conversations with you when they're talking to you about what they want to do. I'm curious what are some of the questions that you like to ask them about their career aspirations or, you know, challenges that they have with some of the things that they're working on, some of the things that they're working on.
Speaker 1:Well, so I guess it's a mixed bag. They'll come to me with a specific request. They want to do this, they want to launch this program, they want to launch this initiative, and, because the work that we are doing is very mission-driven, a lot of times it may not necessarily be a mission-driven initiative like an initiative that speaks to our ultimate mission, but it's always geared toward things like morale building and bringing people together, and so for those types of conversations, I just ask them to kind of map it out who benefits? How does the organization benefit? I need to bring them into the way I think about things and so we may be able to do it. But here are all the questions that I need you to answer and all of the steps I need you to take. Here are the people. I need you to go back and I need you to shop this idea to the various leaders who will be impacted and get their buy-in.
Speaker 1:When it is individuals coming to me personally about their personal career goals and them wanting to, you know, take on more work, they want to take on an additional. There's a position that they want created for them, or they see themselves in you know some greater position. That conversation kind of goes like okay, talk to me about what you're doing, talk to me about how well you're doing what you're doing doing. Talk to me about how well you're doing what you're doing. Talk to me about how you've operated and you've, you know, pitched ideas to expand what you're doing beyond your job description. Like, tell me how you are exceeding and you know, going above and beyond. There's also a conversation. Have you had this conversation with your supervisor or your direct leader? Do they even know that you want to do this?
Speaker 1:Because I tell people, you know, the opportunities that come to people are not people are not going to tap you on the shoulder and say, tammy, you want this opportunity. They come when they see you excel and they see you, you know going above and beyond, and they see you doing really well at something. They tap you you because they see you doing it. So you can't waiting for somebody to recognize that you're a great person because you just are. That's not realistic. You got to show up and show out and I'm telling you, when that happens, you'll get the tap on your shoulder and ask you to do something else that you didn't think you. You didn't even know that you were being considered for, so it's kind of trying to help them navigate the path to success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and what really strikes me about this is in that first scenario, you are inviting them to do what I might call the operational review and really understanding okay, you want to do this initiative, you want to take on this project, you want to lead this, so show me how you'll lead it.
Speaker 2:And it's not because you're disagreeing, it's actually what I hear you doing when you're talking about that is actually more along the lines of okay, well, let's think around the edges of it, because you have a lot of enthusiasm, you're focusing on this and let's make sure that we understand what all the mechanics look like and where that affects other people, and really thinking through it from that perspective. Really thinking through it from that perspective. One of the things that I talk to my clients about regularly is really messaging to the different audiences and really, as the CEO of the organization, one of the things that's really important is recognizing those are the kinds of things that you're thinking about at that level. It's not just yeah, that's a great idea, go do it. It's also yeah, I think it's an interesting idea. I would be excited to explore this more.
Speaker 2:These are the things that you need to flesh out, and that's just an operational approach to getting some of those things done. So that enthusiasm needs to be harnessed in such a way that everyone can go.
Speaker 1:Yes, harness, and partnered with some legwork and some buy-in and some collaboration in order to produce your desired goal.
Speaker 2:Yes absolutely. And it also sounds like when folks are coming to you individually that there's just this whole piece of okay, so it's not exactly. What have you done for?
Speaker 1:me lately.
Speaker 2:It's more along the lines of how are you showing other people what you really want to do and where your skills really plug in? And sometimes it's a little bit right what have you done for me lately? Because if you can't say that you've been successful in your role, then we probably should talk about being successful in the role before you move on to something else, Right?
Speaker 1:And yet there's this willingness to really explore with people what makes that important to you is because a lot of times, people like to like, jump to the front of the line and they think that having the conversation with me is going to presto change, I'll change the world, and they're just going to. That's going to be it. They get Tammy's buy-in and there we are and it's like no, no, no, no, no. That's not how any of this works. So it's critically important that I need them to circle back. They need to get that buy-in from the people who really should be the ones advocating for them. And so, um, if to me, if, if, if.
Speaker 1:If your leader is not advocating for you, then they don't see what you are trying to tell me exists. And how do, how are they going to promote you to that role if they don't see it? You got to be showing them. You don't. Just, you know, come, come and have a conversation with me and I'll wave a magic wand and make it happen that that's not, that that's not realistic, that's not how it happens and that's not going to be successful, because they are the ones that are going to have to continue to show up for, work with, collaborate with, and if you haven't checked that box, then that's not going to be successful show up and do good work then I will be promoted is a little bit of a myth, because really what it is is I need to show up, do good work and make sure that the stuff I really want to do is frontline and center and make sure that people recognize what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:I don't need a bullhorn for that, but I do need to be talking about what I'm excited about, what I'm interested in and what I've done. So you talked here a little bit today about how you had moved into your own practice and yet now you're a CEO in an organization that has a very strong city mission. Talk to me a little bit about what prompted you to make the change, to go from your own practice into this other organization and doing the work you're doing now.
Speaker 1:So I've been with the land bank, for it'll be 11 years in January and in 2015,. When I came to the land bank, I came because I had been out in private practice for almost like nine and a half, almost 10 years and I was just I think it was I wasn't fulfilled. I was tired of using my energy and effort and skills to fight over, oftentimes, what appeared to be frivolous things, and it was. It was again becoming unfulfilling. And I happened to be representing a client who worked for the city at the time and we were just talking and I told him, you know, like, yeah, I just this is, I'm not. You know, I'm gonna do the best job for you, but I'm not over the moon about doing this type of work anymore. Um, I was successful in it, in achieving his goals, but he was like, well, you know, there's, oh, he worked for the city. It's like, you know, you should, you know, reach out to the land bank. They, they, you know, they have positions for lawyers and yada, you know, and Detroit is home. And I was like, you know, never had I ever thought about going into public service. Never had I ever. But I was like, you know, let's try putting my skills and education to doing something that helps the city, helps the people. Let's do that.
Speaker 1:So I went to work in the land bank as a lawyer. I started in January of 2015. By July of that year, I had gone from staff attorney to deputy general counsel, attorney to deputy general counsel, then probably another maybe because, like it all happened very fast. The moves just started to happen on the chessboard. I went from deputy general counsel and then I was supporting the demolition program and then I led the demolition program and then, after that, I was asked to be the deputy executive director for the land bank and I oversaw, you know, demo and property rehab and compliance.
Speaker 1:And then, in December of 2022, the board asked me to lead the organization, having, you know, done so many other things in the organization, and I was like, okay, let's do that, let's do that. Yeah, again, I really do believe in the work. That's why I've been at the Land Bank for so long, because I really do believe in the work and the mission of working to bring Detroit and its neighborhoods back to vibrancy and making them. You know much of what I remember growing up, because I grew up in the city and I grew up in the neighborhoods and so trying to bring that back, because I feel like every kid, every family, every neighborhood deserves it. And so, yeah, that is the path I've taken to get to where I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and what really is standing out to me as you talk about that is this idea of the win-win in that too, like you know, I have these skills that I can bring in in order to advance your mission, and that means a lot to me. So that's what I'm going to do is to advance this mission based on what I have and what I can grow into to do even more powerfully.
Speaker 1:Right, absolutely. And all those questions that I try to tell people to ask of themselves when they are presented with an opportunity. I ask them of myself. With all the opportunities that I've taken, how does this benefit me? Does this fit into the story that I'm writing about myself and my career? Is this a good chapter or is this a chapter? This might not be a chapter, so, but yeah, I ask all those questions of myself now.
Speaker 2:Excellent.
Speaker 1:If it doesn't fit, it's a no.
Speaker 2:Right, Absolutely, I love it, yeah. So I'm curious, Tammy, as we've been talking here, you know we've covered a lot of ground and yet there's still this thread that comes through. Right, this idea of this inflection point for you talks a lot about your moment of recognizing. Hey, wait a minute, I have a choice, I can see what I'm supposed to do here. And now you're actually advocating for that within your organization and talking to people about right. So I'm glad you came to me. This is the work you need to do in order to get that done. So there's still also, I'm noticing a bit of hustle in there as well, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I'm curious is there anything else that you would want to talk about that we didn't discuss, or questions that you would have for me today? I know.
Speaker 1:I'm not alone in coming into my power late.
Speaker 2:I feel like later in my career but how prevalent and how common is that for people just to not recognize the choice, the agency they have over? You know their decisions. I think that even for many of the young people out there right now, I think there's still a little bit of hesitance about that the newer generations often get a lot of slack about you know they just want to be promoted five minutes after they've been hired and all of these things. And you know they just want to be promoted five minutes after they've been hired and all of these things. And you know they demonstrate all of this confidence but they haven't done the work. They haven't gotten everything set up.
Speaker 2:My experience actually has shown that there's a lot of internal talk that is happening in those situations where you know they didn't. They don't necessarily demonstrate that they had a whole lot more confidence than I did when I was younger. And on the outside it looks good and on the inside there can still be a lot of that. But is this reasonable? Is this what I'm supposed to do? These are what the things that people are saying to me, and there's all these little voices that are going nonstop inside the head as soon as I did then.
Speaker 2:I've been using that ever since, right, I've been refining it, I've been growing it Sometimes.
Speaker 2:I stumble and end up doing things that I'm like back that up. I didn't want to do that. So that's one lane of that, and I think that there's still some of that that's out there. And I think that in some of the generations that have been in the workplace like I'm thinking, probably more like the millennials they kind of got a bad rap when they were early in their career journey and they were doing the work I'm not sure how much they were brought into this is how work works in some respects and so they had to kind of stumble through and find their own way, just like we well okay, me as a Gen X person kind of had to. I can't even tell you how many embarrassing episodes occurred in my career where I was like, well, you know, I just didn't know. You can't know what's right when you don't even know that there's a question to be asked. And I think that that's one of the challenges that we face sometimes is we don't know what the landscape looks like, so we don't know where the landmines are.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:How much do you see that? I know you were talking before about seeing some of the confidence how much do you sometimes see the uncertainty as well?
Speaker 1:uncertainty, or maybe I don't recognize it as uncertainty, because I feel like the language of today's youth or younger people is very different, like it's a very different world and they communicate very differently, um, and so maybe I don't always recognize that that is what it is, but you've given me some food for thought to maybe I need to be asking some more in-depth questions. Maybe if I, you know, considered that it could possibly be that I would ask questions to flesh that out.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah Well, and it strikes me that it takes courage for someone to go into the office of the CEO and say, hey, I had an idea. Or hey, I'm having a hard time and I need your help with this.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I'm so nice you are nice.
Speaker 1:It's true, it's true.
Speaker 2:I see that in you and I actually think that you know from what you have described to me, as you've shared bits of your story with me, that you really do want to support anyone who comes in. You may not have that magic wand, but if you can help them see their path forward, that feels like a win for you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And for anyone who's willing to take those steps, like I, feel like it's a successful path forward, like it is the. It is to me the A, not the A way to win and to get ahead and to do all the things you want to do. To do all the things you want to do. I want to help people recognize and realize all their goals. To me, that is an environment. That is a healthy environment to work in, where you feel like you're supported at every level.
Speaker 2:Well, and the other thing that it makes me think about, too, is the way that you described these conversations, tammy. It's not like they have to have the to be kind of expanding their thinking and deepening what they really want to achieve in so many ways. So well, tammy, I appreciate you and I'm so happy that you came on to the podcast today. So, thank you, thank you very much, and I look forward to our next conversation. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me, for having me access some memories and taking me back out memory lane. I do appreciate it. You've given me some food for thought in ways that I can move forward in working with and working for the people that I work with and helping them to, like I said, realize their personal and professional goals. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely my pleasure. If you have interest in connecting and learning more about today's guest, check out the show notes for ways to connect and follow up. Thanks for listening. If you found this episode helpful, share it with someone who could benefit from it. Until next time, I'm Becky Fraser, reminding you to integrate who you are with how you lead. Okay, bye.
