Ep. 14 / Beyond Success: A Mission of Stewardship ► Rick Warren

World-renowned pastor and author Rick Warren joins host Brian Stiller for an intimate conversation where he unveils the remarkable journey behind The Purpose Driven Life, a book that reshaped his life and ministry. Discover how Rick transformed his unexpected fame into a mission of generosity, becoming a "reverse tither" and channeling his wealth into tackling pressing social issues like AIDS and mental health. His story is not just one of unprecedented success, but of profound humility and purposeful stewardship that challenges us to consider our own impact on the world.

We also reflect on the inspiring legacy of William Booth and discuss the church's mission to address both spiritual and societal needs. Together, we critically explore the balance between social reform and spiritual reconciliation. In a raw and heartfelt segment, we delve into the painful reality of mental health struggles, as Rick shares the deeply personal story of his son Matthew's tragic suicide. This episode is a poignant reminder of the power of community, the pursuit of joy amidst grief, and the enduring message of hope for those grappling with mental health challenges. Join us for these compelling discussion on evangelical 360, that invite us to reexamine our roles in providing care and support to those in need.

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Kay Warren | Mental Health Initiative

Hope For Mental Health

HIV & AIDS Initiative

Healthy Pastor Resources

Saddleback Church

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Transcript

Brian Stiller

Hello and welcome to evangelical 360. My name is Brian Stiller, Global Ambassador for the World Evangelical Alliance and host of this new podcast series. On evangelical 360, I interview leaders, writers and influencers about contemporary issues which are impacting Christian life around the world. My hope is that it will not only be a global meeting place where faith is explored from different perspectives, but that each person listening will come away informed, encouraged, challenged and even inspired.

Today I'm delighted to welcome well-known pastor and author Rick Warren, founder of Saddleback Church and author of the best-selling The Purpose-Driven Life. Time Magazine named Rick Warren, the most influential spiritual leader in America and one of the most influential people in the world. His books have sold tens of millions of copies in 200 languages, resonating with millions globally. As an evangelical leader, Rick has also advocated for social justice issues like AIDS and mental health, emphasizing the church's role to serve their public. The way that Rick Warren has stewarded his life in ministry is truly inspiring and I hope you will enjoy part two of our discussion. 

Welcome, Rick, to evangelical 360.

Rick Warren

Thank you, Brian.

Brian Stiller

Rick, it's absolutely amazing to see how God has used your life and ministry over the years. Can we start with the enormous success in writing, The Purpose Driven Life? Tell us how it came to be and what the impact of writing it has been in your own life and ministry.

Rick Warren

It certainly changed my life when I wrote The Purpose Driven Life. It took me 12 hours a day, five days a week for seven months. Unlike any other book that I'd written, I would get up in the morning at about 4 to 5 am. I wouldn't shower or shave, I'd put on a t-shirt and a pair of shorts or gym shorts or long-sleeved sweatpants, and I'd go to a little room in the back of Saddleback Church, behind the sanctuary, behind the worship center, and I would sit down and about 5.30, I'd start typing and honestly, I didn't know that it was going to be this global bestseller. But I did know that it was anointed. But I did know that it was anointed because when I was typing that in that seven months, many times tears would be flowing down my face as I was typing and I would be thinking where is this coming from? I'm not this good, this is not my words. I knew it was anointed. I didn't know it was going to be a bestseller. 

Well, when that came out, you said what did it do to you? When it came out, Brian, it scared me to death really. The notoriety. It brought in enormous amounts of money and it brought in enormous amounts of attention and all of a sudden I'm getting calls from people like Bill Gates and CEOs, and I'm getting invited to speak at the Davos World Economic Forum, speak to the United Nations, speak to the American Congress, travel around the world and be hosted by kings and queens, and I'm on the cover of 30 magazines and you know, time magazine calls me all these different things. And it honestly scared me and I had to say Lord, what do you want me to do with the fame and what do you want me to do with the money? Because when you write a book and the first four words of the book are it's not about you, then you know the money's not for you and you know the fame's not for you. And so I thought what do you want to do? And I have a famous sermon now called the Stewardship of Affluence and Influence. And how do I use what God puts in my hand? And so the easiest thing to do was with the money, and it was just give it away.

And so Kay and I made five decisions. First, we said we're not going to change our lifestyle one bit. I mean, it's tens of millions of dollars. We're not going to change our lifestyle one bit. I still live in the same house I've lived in for 30 years. I drove the same Ford truck for 20 years. I had over 200,000 miles on it. I could have bought a fleet of Rolls Royces or Bentleys, but I didn't want people to think I was using any of this money for bling. I drove the same Ford truck for 20 years until finally, on the 40th anniversary of the church, the church said this thing's dangerous and they gave me a new Ford truck, and so that was that. But it didn't do any blame. We said we're not going to change your lifestyle.

Second, I stopped taking a salary from the church in 2022. Third, so I've served for free since then. Third, I added up what the church had given me in the first 22 years and I gave it all back. So I effectively served Saddleback Church for 43 years for free, which gave me a lot of moral leverage, with my people saying I'm asking you to volunteer because I'm volunteering. Nobody's paying me to do this, so I'm asking you to volunteer.

Third, we set up three foundations. One was called Acts of Mercy to care for people with AIDS and HIV, and then later orphan care. And then it morphed into what we now call Hope for a Brighter Tomorrow, for helping families and individuals with mental illness illness. And then I started a foundation called Equipping Leaders, which allowed me to travel around the world and spend the last 20 years in little villages serving pastors you've never heard of and, like Paul, as a tent maker, I paid my own way. We pay for our own travel, we pay for my team that travels with me. I haven't accepted an honorarium in 30 years and I don't take a salary. I'm still supported by the income on that book. But then the last thing we did is we became reverse tithers. This is an interesting story, Brian.

When Kay and I got married it'll be 50 years this next year we started raising our giving every year. So our first year of marriage, we tithed 10%. Second year of our marriage, we raised it to 11%. Third year, we actually raised it 3% in that one year. And every year of our marriage we have raised our giving by a little bit. On some years, when the cupboard was bare and finances were tight, we'd raise it only a quarter of a percent. Other years I got a royalty check or a windfall or something, or a raise we'd raise it several percent.

People often ask me why do you think God had you write the best-selling book in history? And I'll say he knew what I'd do with the money? Because before we had even written that book, we were already giving 50% of our income and living on 50%. People say, well, I'd give it away if I had millions of dollars. No, you wouldn't. You're not doing it now. I had a 30-year track record of giving before all of this started coming in. Well, when the book started bringing in tons of money, we immediately jumped over all the rest and we raised our giving to 90%. We've been at 91% for the last I don't know 20 years.

Now, Brian, I've played this game with God for 50 years. God says you give to me and I'll give to you and we'll see who wins. I've lost that game for 49 years. Now don't misunderstand me. I don't give to get a blessing, I give to be a blessing. And the easy part was actually what to do with the money. The hard part was what do I do with all this attention?

And I was reading one day and in Psalm 72, it's Solomon's prayer for more influence. Solomon's prayer for more influence. When you first read it it sounds like the most egotistical prayer. It says God, I want you to make me famous, I want kings and queens to bow before me, I want to be well-known, spread the fame of my name throughout all the nations. And it sounds really, really self-centered. Until you read the verse where he says so that he's asking for God to give him influence so that the king may support the widow and orphan, defend the defenseless, care for the oppressed. And he goes through all the marginalized society. And today he'd say care for the mentally ill, for the aged, for the immigrant. He actually says that care for the stranger in the land. And out of that verse, god said the purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence. The purpose of influence is to speak up for those who have no influence. And out of that, 20 years ago, we started the peace plan to proclaim the gospel, equip believers, alleviate suffering. When we talk about suffering, we're talking about poverty, disease, illiteracy, conflict, injustice, disasters, contend in prayer and establish churches. Disasters contend in prayer and establish churches. And it's been quite a journey, using the stewardship of affluence and stewardship of influence for the global glory of God.

Brian Stiller

Rick, it's truly been remarkable to see how you've used your influence to really make a difference in the world. Historically, however, the evangelical church has struggled between the polarities of evangelism and social justice issues. How have you addressed this in your own church?

Rick Warren

About a hundred and I don't know 130, 40 years ago, Protestantism split into the liberal wing and the liberal wing said we're going to care about the social structures of society and then the evangelical wing said we're just going to care about saving the soul. The truth is, jesus did both preaching, teaching and healing. We got to get back to what Jesus did. You can't say Jesus didn't care about people in pain, he didn't care about what was going on in society. In fact, when Jesus gets up in his very first sermon, the very first line of his very first sermon is the spirit of the Lord is upon me to bring good news to the poor. Does God have favorites? Yes, he does. God loves the poor and he says if you care about the poor like I care about the poor, I will bless your life. One of the reasons Saddleback was so blessed is we cared about the poor. You can't just care for the heart or just the mind or just the body. It's got to be.

I think one of the people who had the best balance was the founder of the Salvation Army. Balance was the founder of the Salvation Army, William Booth. William Booth understood you've got to save the soul and you've got to care for the sick and assist the poor and educate the next generation. You've got to be pro-life. We've got to save that baby inside that mother's life. But people ask me are you pro-life? I said no, I'm whole life, because I don't just want that baby to be born, I want that little girl to grow up without being sexually abused, I want her to get an education, I want her to be protected, I want her to be healthy. And what we need is more than just pro-life, we need whole life. Some people stop caring about a child the moment it's born.

Now what happened is there was a guy who wrote a book. It was called Walter Rauschenbosch. Rauschenbosch was a liberal Baptist preacher and he basically says we don't need to preach salvation anymore. What we need to do is save the social structures of society. Basically, it was Christian form of Marxism is what it was. We don't accept that.

Okay, we need redemption, we need atonement, we need Christ's death on the cross for us, and you can't just say well, let's just hand out band-aids to people. But people went the other way and they said all we're doing is getting people saved and they're not doing anything about racial injustice, which makes Jesus mad. I believe the number one sin in the world is racism, and that's why Christ has called us to the ministry of reconciliation. First we reconcile people to Christ and then we reconcile people to each other. All that is, brian, is the great commandment Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength. That's reconciliation with God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said those are the two most important things. Some churches are only doing number one, and what we say is you can't fulfill the great commission without obeying the great commandment.

Brian Stiller

Rick, as AIDS broke out in the world, you took a fairly definitive stand and became an advocate for people with AIDS. How did that emerge in your life and what was the impact on your larger preaching ministry?

Rick Warren

First place, I'd say I listened to my wife because God spoke to her about AIDS before it got my attention. Once it grabbed her heart then and she began to explain to me this crisis. She was reading an article one day that said 25 million children orphaned by AIDS in Africa. This is back in the 80s. 25 million, she said. I couldn't imagine 25 million being orphaned by anything. But just this one thing was devastating and leaving all these kids orphans. And as we began to study, it began to grab my heart too.

Aids is now a chronic disease. You can live with it for a long time, but in the 80s and the early 90s it was a death sentence. If you got AIDS, you could die in six months. And it was a death sentence. If you got AIDS, you could die in six months. And it was killing large populations. And there were countries like Botswana where 33% of the country had AIDS, HIV and AIDS, and so it was devastating.

And I thought you know what In Jesus' day? Who did he hang out with Lepers? The people. Everybody was afraid of the people. Everybody was afraid they'd get their disease. And in the early days, when people didn't know how you got AIDS, they were worried about hugging people who had AIDS and sitting next to people with AIDS and they were being ostracized. And I thought, you know, if Jesus were here today, the lepers of the 21st century and late 20th century were people with HIV and AIDS and so we just said that's where the church ought to be. The church ought to be at the forefront of caring for the most afflicted people. The ostracized Jesus went to the people who were ostracized by everybody else and so we just took a stand. It became what we called a signature issue. In the years that I pastored Saddleback, we ended up with about six or seven signature issues which we said we want to be known for. We're going to plant a flag on the ground and we're going to say we're going to do this. And we began hosting conferences, we began ministering to people with AIDS and that honestly opened up doors all around the world. It actually got the attention of a lot of unbelievers. That allowed me to witness to them about the message of Christ. I could mention to you a lot of famous celebrities that I've shared my faith with, simply because we were doing something about AIDS. Here's the interesting thing, Brian, most people don't know that it was the church that invented the hospital, not the government, not business.

In the first 350 years of Christianity which, by the way, was the fastest period of growth and I have studied it intensely we grew 50% a decade. For 33 decades we went from 120 people in the upper room to half of the Roman empire. 30 million out of 60 million had come to Christ. How do we have that kind of growth? Well, one of them was actually medical evangelism.

There were two big plagues in the first 300 years of the church the Justinian plague and the Cyprian plague, and one of them was the Black Plague. It was the bubonic plague, and people started leaving the cities in large numbers because nobody knew about germs in those days, and they thought well, maybe it's the city that's making everybody sick. Christians did the exact opposite. They moved into the urban areas to care, making everybody sick. Christians did the exact opposite. They moved into the urban areas to care for the sick.

And that's where the phrase see how they love one another came from. That was our witness. They care for the sick, they care for the dying, they care for the people that nobody else wants to be around and they're afraid of. And so we figured out Christians in that day figured out it's easier to care for the sick, to show them hospitality, if we bring them all together in one place. And so, in showing hospitality to the sick in one place, they invented the hospital. Christianity knows more about healthcare than anybody. We've been doing it 2,000 years. The audacity of the government trying to tell a church how to do health care. So that's part of what the AIDS ministry was about care for the afflicted.

Brian Stiller

Rick, you've also used your influence to shine a light on the very pressing issue of mental illness, a topic that has impacted many of us in various ways, but this issue really hit home for you and your wife Kay, as you faced the tragic circumstances around your son Matthew's death. Can you share with us your experience?

Rick Warren

Sure. My youngest son was born with mental illness and throughout his entire life he struggled with depression and all kinds of different mental illnesses. It is not a sin to be sick. Matthew had a tender heart and a tortured mind. He loved Jesus Christ with all his heart. He evangelized people. He could actually go on suicidal websites and lead people to Christ while he was in his own depression and suicidal modes, did that many times.

In fact, when Matthew died I'm not exaggerating we probably got 35,000 letters from people around the world of condoles, because it was everywhere. It was on CNN, it was on every network. I mean, I was walking through a airport and I see my son's name on the CNN ticker Matthew Warren suicide. I mean that that's gut wrenching. It was just horrific to have this happen. We had prayed all of our life that this would never happen happen. We had prayed all of our life that this would never happen. We had feared that it might happen. But Matthew was a wonderful kid. We had a great relationship with him.

The night before he took his life he came over for dinner. He had his own home, lived by himself and we played some games, watched some TV together and as he was leaving, he gave me a big hug. He said, dad, I'm just so tired, I'm so tired. He was tired of fighting the pain in his brain. And one time he came to me when he was 17 and he said, dad, it's real obvious I'm not going to be healed. We've gone to the best doctors in the land. I've had the best medication. I've gone to the best doctors in the land, I've had the best medication. I've gone to best Christian counselors. I've had the best people praying for my healing Men of faith, women of faith praying for me. Dad, you're a man of faith. Mom is a woman of faith, and it's real obvious I'm not going to get healed. Why can't I just go to heaven now? Well, that'll break your heart if you're a dad. And we're both standing there sobbing, crying together. And I said to him Matthew, I've prayed for you every day of your life that you would be healed and I don't care how God does it miracle or medicine I'm not prescribing the healing, I just want you to be over your pain. I don't think you want to die, I think you just want relief. But I understand the pain in your brain is constant. He was the most courageous young man who would get up every morning with this pain in his brain and go another day and I said, matthew, I believe in miracles.

I've seen people healed, but the reason they're called miracles is because they don't happen all the time. If they happened all the time, it wouldn't be a miracle. I don't know why some people get healed through prayer and other people don't. I don't know that. It's in God's sovereignty. When I get to heaven, it's one of my questions. Why did that person get prayed for and they're healed and that person does and it doesn't happen? I don't know.

But I do know we live in a broken world. Everything in this planet is broken. The economy is broken, the weather is broken. Your body, everybody's body, is broken. They don't work right right now. If my heart doesn't work right and I take a pill for that, there's no shame in it. If my spleen or my pancreas doesn't work right if I get diabetes, I take a pill for that there's no shame in that. My lungs don't work right and I take a pill for that no shame. Why, if my brain doesn't work right, I'm supposed to keep the fact that I'm on medicine a secret? Your brain is just another organ and for some people it doesn't work right. It doesn't work right. It's not a sin to be sick and your chemistry is not your character.

Matthew was a great Christian young man, but he was hounded by this constant pain in his brain his entire life and if I could have taken it, I would have done it a thousand times for him. And we stood there and I said you know, Matthew, what do you do? Some prayers don't get answered with a miracle. What do you do when you have an unmanageable, when you have a problem that won't go away? And I said you have to manage it. And my prayer is that with good Christian counseling, the best medication you can find spiritual growth and maturity and a good support system. You will be able to manage your pain, but it may not ever go away.

After that conversation, Matthew lasted another decade, 10 more years, but when he took his life it was the worst day of my life and you know the things I've learned about. Grief is never waste to hurt, never waste to hurt. Pain in this world is inevitable. Misery is optional. It's not so much what happens to me in life, but what I choose to do in response to that. 2 Corinthians says God takes us through problems and comforts us so we can comfort others with the comfort we've been given Out of that ministry, out of that pain, the worst day of my life, when we stood outside his home and waited for the police to break down the door and bring my son out in a body bag. It was horrific horrific, horrific.

Kay and I were standing there holding each other sobbing. We hadn't seen him in 36 hours, which was very unusual. We'd see our kids almost every day. We went over to his house, knocked on the door, car's in the driveway, the lights are off, nobody's responding and we're fearing the worst and we call the police to come break down the door. And while we're standing there hugging each other sobbing, kay is wearing a necklace that had two words on it and she lifts it up to my face, just a few inches away, and on it it said the words of the book she had just recently written choose joy, choose joy. And I said how do you choose joy when your heart is breaking in a million pieces? The police came. They won't even let us go in to see the scene. He had shot himself and they bring him out in a body bag. It's devastating.

This is why I say everybody who's listening needs to be in a small group. I've been in a small group with four couples Kay and I for over 25 years. We've been through every kind of problem you could imagine in life highs and lows, celebrations and terrible things. Within about 15 minutes, that small group was there on that driveway and the guys just all got around me and hugged me. And the girls women got all around Kay and hugged her. They said there's nothing we can say. There's nothing we can say that will help, but we're not leaving you alone tonight and we're going to come spend the night at your house. And they came and there was nothing to say. They came and they slept on the couch and on the floor and in the kitchen just to be there with us.

Now one of the things that I have been teaching pastors now for at least 20 years is that the deeper the pain the fewer words you use. The deeper the pain the fewer words you use. Somebody's having a bad hair day. You can go and talk to them for 30 minutes, but if they just had lost a loved one, you show up and shut up. It's the ministry of presence. You don't say anything, it's just be there with them.

Job's friends were genuine friends in the first week when they sat with him on the ground and said nothing. The problem week, when they sat with him on the ground and said nothing. The problem started when they started giving advice. Now there's so many things I've learned about grief. We could do a whole nother podcast on that. But Kay and I have a ministry. There's not a week that goes by that someone doesn't call about mental illness or suicide. Kate leads a foundation now called Hope for Brighter Tomorrow. She just last week finished her second. She does two retreats a year for moms of kids who are suicidal or struggling with mental illness, and if you're going to have pain, you may as well use it for good. And so we've done that.

And there are people I could give you a list of very famous people that everybody in the world would know who called either Kay or me when they're going through either depression or mental illness or struggling with suicidal thoughts themselves. And I would just say to anyone who happens to be listening, because you could be in ministry, you could love the Lord with all your heart and still be struggling with those dark thoughts. And I would just say to those of you who are listening don't do it. Don't do it. Sometimes you're thinking well, the world would be better off without me. That's a lie from Satan. We need you, you are needed, you're valuable, you matter to God and there's lots of places to get help. If you want to go to Hope for a Brighter Tomorrow, go to the website. Kay's website gives all kinds of resource places, things you can read, people you can call. There is help, and my prayer is that you'll not only get through. Don't give a permanent solution to a temporary mood. That's an important thing.

Brian Stiller

Thank you so much for your willingness to share so honestly about your son and how you've allowed God to use his experience to help others. How you have stewarded your life and ministry is truly an inspiration to us all, Rick. Thank you so much for your time today. 

Rick Warren

Bye-bye.

Brian Stiller

If you missed part one of my conversation with Rick Warren, just go to evangelical360.com. And, if you found this valuable, please take a moment to subscribe and give it a like. We would appreciate it if you would share it with your friends and colleagues as well. You'll find links in the show notes of this episode for anything we discussed today, and if you haven't signed up to receive my free Dispatches from the Global Village, it's an opportunity to join me and meet leaders in many different countries around the world. It's also a wonderful way to stay in touch with upcoming episodes and guests. Just go to evangelical360.com. Thank you for listening. Until next time. 

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