Ep. 59 / When Ideology Becomes Idolatry: Discerning Our True Citizenship with Tim Milosch (Part 2)

A campus movement loses a leading voice and a generation is left asking what courage, clarity and charity look like now. In this episode Brian continues the conversation with political scientist Dr. Tim Milosch 

Following the assassination of Charlie Kirk, many were left wondering what might happen to a movement of young adults to whom free speech, civic duty and an unapologetic faith, are not just talking points, but a way to live amid extreme political polarization. 

Dr. Milosch makes the case for evaluating public figures with honesty and grace: refuse to excuse harmful words, but refuse the lazy comfort of cherry-picked outrage. From there, we explore dual citizenship—holding the kingdom of heaven above the kingdom of man—so that convictions stay anchored in Scripture rather than drifting into ideology or tribal identity. 

If fear has been your operating system in recent years, this conversation offers a reset: engage with charity, think with depth, and keep your political identity under the lordship of Jesus Christ.

If you'd like to learn more from Dr. Tim Milosch you can go to his website, listen to his podcast or follow him on social media. 

And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube! 

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Transcript

Welcome And Listener Invitations

Brian Stiller 0:10

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, Brian Stiller. This is the second episode of my conversation with Tim Malosch. He is a political scientist at Biola University in California. His teaching and research focuses on the intersection of Christian faith, political philosophy, and public life. Tim helps students in churches think about how to do Christian political engagement in this polarized culture. But also I want to thank you for joining me for this inspiring conversation. A couple of things I'd like you to consider. First, would you share this episode with a friend? And make sure you hit the subscribe button if you aren't already a subscriber. And then join me on YouTube. Suggest other people you'd like me to invite into conversation or ideas or topics we might cover as we think about faith in our global world. Tim Milosch. So you're in touch with that younger generation. Are you seeing different patterns, ideas? Obviously, we're living in the in the post-Charlie Kirk assassination, and all that he brought to a generation of people. Uh and when when he was killed, I had never heard of him. So I I live outside your country, but also I think generationally, there's things, there are different things going on at depending on that what level you're at.

Tim Milosch 1:49

Yeah. So I think what you just pointed out is like there was a generational, um, there was a generational gap in terms of observing Charlie Kirk and understanding Charlie Kirk and his work. Um I'm actually, I'm kind of I was on the periphery myself, even though I do interact with a lot of college students. I was kind of like aware of Kirk, but I wasn't a close follower of him. And because I am trying to understand the impact he had on young people, uh, not just in America, but increasingly just before his assassinated, it was uh reaching a global audience. Um, so I actually just uh I've been working through the last several weeks a mini-series on my podcast um called uh the Kirk Effect. And I'm working off of a hypothesis that Charlie Kirk did have a large impact on um on not just uh young people politically, but he also had a large impact on young people at the faith level. And so I'm trying to understand this. Uh, and I believe that his assassination was a watershed moment in American political culture and religious life, but it's still too early to tell just what that impact and all its effects will be. So in my podcast, I've been just talking to as many different people from as many different perspectives as possible to try to like try to understand what I'm calling euphemistically the Kirk effect. Um

Brian Stiller 3:10

what's what's the watershed? What's the watershed?

Assassination As Civic Watershed

Grief, Grace, And Public Speech

Tim Milosch 3:14

Yeah, I think the watershed is that when you are um when you see a leader of a of a movement, any movement, in this case, uh Charlie Kirk was a major advocate for um conservative uh political values, but uh also he was a he was a I would argue he was a Christian apologist. Uh so he was our advocating for Christianity as well. Uh but he was doing it in uh the deeply secular campus culture of America. Uh in many ways, uh Kirk on a college campus was the embodiment of what makes America America. Free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, the ability to meet, you know, in open discourse with your opponents and and talk and debate, like that, those are very uh those are wonderful elements of the liberal tradition uh historically in uh in the Western world. And I think Kirk and his uh work was embodying that. So when you see that individual gunned down doing that work, it's a very direct shot at core values and core social institutions and the values that underpin them. Uh, and so I think his assassination had this effect on people. It had multiple layers of an effect for the people who followed him, for the young people he influenced. Like this was the loss of a leader, the loss of a friend. Uh, many of the people who I've talked to on my podcast who have had direct uh interactions with Charlie Kirk all agree that he had a gift for what gift for friendship or for civic friendship, being able to engage uh people across a broad swath of perspectives in a respectful, friendly manner. Um, so I mean, there's that. Uh and so they see they're mourning the loss of a leader, they're mourning the loss of the hope that he uh instilled in them for a better vision of a political community. Young people uh today seem to be um hungry for uh for trite to say normalcy. They're hungry for uh structure, they're hungry for a sense of peace, they're tired of polarization and the politics and the rhetoric that surrounds it. They're they're tired of the fear-mongering um that they hear in media. And in Kirk, they seem to have seen someone who was courageous about advocating for what he believed, was clear about what he believed. Uh, and so they um they realized that, hey, I could speak up about for what I for what I believe and what I believe is important uh without fear, and I can do it in a way that engages with other people who um I might disagree with, and there's a model for that. And I think

Brian Stiller 6:18

Tim, yeah, but Tim, would that would that eliminate some of the things that he has said, his judgments that he has made, that just seems so uh frighteningly uh uh antithetical to the gospel? Were the have have those just been set aside in the wake of his death?

Tim Milosch 6:40

No, they have not. Um, so I would direct uh if people are interested in a specific example of this and how to think about this, I would actually suggest people look at um my interview with uh author and historian Stephen Mansfield on my um on my podcast, The Kirk Effect. I I'm not doing that for self-promotion purposes. I really do think this is a valuable.

Brian Stiller 7:02

We'll put that in our footnotes.

Kingdom And Country: Dual Citizenship

Tim Milosch 7:04

Yeah, I really do think this is a valuable conversation because Mansfield himself is an evangelical Christian. He is um he has interacted with Charlie Kirk on a couple of occasions, and he was someone who was a more actually more aware of Kirk and his work and his words than I was. Uh, and so I I think Steven's conversation was very helpful in how to think about public figures. And I think the point I would make, and I would make to especially to fellow believers who are concerned or even critical of Charlie Kirk and his um, and you know, some of his some comments he may have made. Again, I'm not a close follower of Kirk, so I can't speak to all the instances or all the contexts therein. But I think the comment I make to my brothers and sisters of Christ would be be mindful of the fact that we all say things that are antithetical to the gospel, however much we desire not to. Like this is just this is what comes of being um sinners being sanctified. Uh, that is part of our sanctification process. If you believe that Charlie Kirk was a brother in Christ, however much you might disagree with him, he was on a sanctification journey. Does that mean that we cut him slack on um if he said something that was, as you say, Brian, antithetical gospel? No, you don't cut slack on that, but you can show grace, you can show charity, and in the hopes that such will be extended to you in the moment of thoughtless speech, which we all have done. And I think for you and I, who have uh obviously not nearly the public platforms that Charlie Kirk had, I think uh even you and I can be um sensitive to the fact that, like, that's hard to have a public platform and to have people listening and to have uh you know unguarded moments where you know we were constantly having to be careful and mindful of our speech. Um, Mansfield makes a really interesting point in my discussion with him on Kirk, is he reminded me that in many ways Kirk was a young man, and he was a young man in a very public profile, but that doesn't make him any less a young man, which means he had all the challenges of being a young man, especially in terms of being uh effusive and maybe overstating things in his speech. Uh, and that uh but Mansfield also pointed out that there were signs that he was maturing. There was indications that he was maturing. There's indications that he would receive correction when they came. Uh, and so yeah, I think we need to look at the whole picture here. We need to look at the whole person. We can't just look at a particular comment. To our point earlier, to your point earlier about how we handle scripture and political discussions, we can't just cherry-pick and pull things out of context.

Brian Stiller 9:48

Tim, as we land this conversation, I'm thinking about the the challenge that that uh the kingdom of God as an idea and as a reality, how that intersects with the way I do politics, the way I think about my country. What's your best take on that as you instruct your young people?

Tim Milosch 10:12

There's a couple of different ways I think it's helpful. And you're speaking my language here because uh for me, one of the things that really seized my imagination as an undergraduate student at Biola was this idea of the kingdom of heaven and uh just the beauty of that vision, uh, the richness of that vision, and uh the advocating for advancing um the kingdom of heaven as an ambassador. That was the purpose, uh, right. And I think for evangelicals, that's a that's a statement of purpose, that's a deep sense of missional meaning that we can draw on. Um, and so that that's been an animating feature in my professional life, in my vocational life. Uh, that's something I've really tried to uh think deeply about in whatever professional setting I'm in, uh, and even just even as a parent, even as a husband and father. So uh yeah, the kingdom of heaven, uh, this is a topic I love. I love to think about and how it intersects with different things. When it comes to um the intersection of the kingdom of heaven and our role in and our place in it as uh believers, in at its intersection with um with the political world, I do think that there's first a need to recognize that we basically have dual citizenship. We are citizens of the kingdom of heaven and we are citizens of our uh given country. Now, but I think anyone who holds dual citizenship in two countries can say that for all the benefits of having a dual citizenship, it creates certain tensions. It creates tensions about um, you know, where do your loyalties lie? It creates tensions about how you feel when the two countries are at odds, etc. And I think um I think the same is true for Christians who care about their countries. Uh, as dual citizens, um, you care about the kingdom of heaven, you care about uh the kingdom of man and the iteration in which you live. Um so I think for evangelicals in particular, uh the bridge or the connective tissue uh between the kingdom of heaven and whatever kingdom of man they dwell in uh is the Great Commission. It's the gospel, it's advancing that gospel in their particular community, trusting that it will have its salutary effects in the common good in the public life, because it it will and it does. Um I think additionally, there we have to be mindful that there is there is an implied hierarchy between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of man. The kingdom of heaven is higher, the kingdom of heaven is eternal, it is permanent in a way that kingdoms of men are not. And so when there is a tension between those two, we have to say with Peter and John uh in Acts uh that you know whether it's uh better to obey you or obey God, you decide, but we're gonna obey God. Uh, we need to be clear. Now, to be clear, uh, we have to be careful. Again, this comes back to the wisdom point. We have to be careful that we don't say, oh, I'm obeying God and using that as a cover to justify our own personal political preferences. If that's the case, that's a sure sign that ideology is not in the under the lordship of Christ, and ideology is becoming an idolatry. Uh, and that's where it's important to be clear on what that scriptural center is and uh be clear on these are the things that scripture is explicit about, we obey God on, and then we can uh navigate the rest with prudential judgment and wisdom.

Brian Stiller 13:57

America is known for its uh individualism, its strength, its uh exceptionalism. Which, of course, for those of us who aren't Americans are a little annoyed because we think each of us whatever country you're a part of is exceptional. But there is a kind of a braggadocia that comes with being an American. But how does then as as you go about your various uh activities and and seeking the good of your country, of your school, of your corporation, of your community? How does one go about living out the gospel within uh within those various sectors even though and and also recognizing that America is part of a corporate uh community called the globe, and it really matters to uh the evangelicals, and that's our tribe, so we'll we'll refer to that. It really matters to evangelicals of other countries how Americans are seen uh in their in their civic duty, in their public witness.

Tim Milosch 15:15

You know, like it or not, I think that places a higher standard for citizenship on us. And by citizenship, I mean citizenship in our individual political communities. It's not enough for us to be just citizens and of our individual countries. We have to be the best citizens. We have to be not just the most engaged, we need to be the uh most charitable, we need to be the most uh honest, we need to be the most uh like all the things that like when we think of civic virtue, uh we need to be the exemplars of that. That's a high standard. Um, that's a uh and I think immediately if you're a serious uh Christian with a solid, um, solid theology of the fallenness of humanity, uh, you immediately feel the burden of that. And it's like, yeah, that's that is what we're called to, though. I think that is in some ways a cross we're all called to bear, is we need to be the best citizens uh in a country. I think Peter and Paul both speak to this in their letters uh about um about, you know, in Paul's case in Romans, uh, to the degree that is possible in what to the degree it's in our power to live peaceably with all. Uh Peter talks about, uh Peter talks about uh endeavoring to lead a peaceful and quiet life, but also being ready to uh give a defense for the hope that is within us. Like so there's both this peacefulness, but also this apologetic position that we take in relationship to our political communities. And I and I think that that's consistent regardless of what corporate entity we're inhabiting, whether it's a business, whether it's a school, whether it's a country. Um, we can be consistent. I don't think we need to like take off my Christian student hat, put on my Christian businessman hat, take off my Christian businessman hat. We don't need to be changing hats uh all the time. At the end of the day, this is about being faithful uh to uh our calling as believers, to our calling as disciples in whatever context we're in.

Brian Stiller 17:25

What models for you, either institutions, communities, or or leaders that that speak to to you of a uh of a noble engagement as evangelicals? We really are living with a smirching of the name. And uh as you look in your world, what models would you point your students to?

Vocation, Desire, And Stewarding The Soul

Tim Milosch 17:51

Yeah, that's a that's a really good example. Um, I don't I'm not gonna be, I'm not trying to be American braggadocious uh here, but I will say, especially with Especially with my students, I try to place put myself before them as a model. Like, and by that I mean I'm mindful that whether I want to be or not, I am a model for my students. So I have to be that model for them. I can't just say, you know, look at these guys and then not be like them. So um, so first I'm mindful of the way in which I model this uh for my own students and for my family. And not that I'm an exemplar by any means. I've still got a lot to learn and to grow in. Um, but I actually think um I cited him earlier. I think Steven Mansfield is a great example of a civic leader who takes his calling as a Christian very seriously uh and works in his various places and his various uh you know spheres of influence to be that. Um he has a podcast, the Stephen Mansfield Podcast. Uh, it's a bi-weekly podcast. If you want to get a sense of just how he thinks and talks and seeks to be Christian in the public square, that's a great place to start. But he's also written several books highlighting uh Christian leaders um of history uh that would be helpful in addressing this question. Um in terms of serious scholars, uh people who are thinking Christian, uh thinking seriously and closely about what it means to be Christian in America today. I cited Mark David Hall and his book, Who's Afraid of Christian Nationalism? I I really like Mark a lot in terms of not just as a man, not just as an individual, but he thinks uh carefully about what it means to be a Christian in the public square, what it means to, you know, what the different strands of thought in American Christianity are. Um, and so I think he's a great example here. Uh, these are the contemporary examples. Uh some someone cycle institutionally, uh again, not to brag on my own. I love by I really do. I think Biola has worked to try to understand its place as a beacon for the gospel first and as a civic institution second. I think they really try to keep that order correct. Um, do they do it perfectly? No, we have our struggles with that, just like any institution of any size. We're imperfect people trying to make sense of a very dynamic, shifting world. Um, but I think there's a good faith effort there at that institution to wrestle well with this idea of what does it mean to you know be faithful to the gospel first and be civically and culturally engaged second, has that land. So I think institutionally uh we we work hard uh at that. Um and so I I think those are a couple of examples of individuals and institutions. If we kind of like branch into politics specifically, um, because we opened this conversation talking about Donald Trump as a political figure, but there's plenty of uh outspoken Christians in American politics that um that I think probably give a better model of what it means to be um Christian civic leaders, uh, because even Donald Trump himself has been pretty clear that as much as he's drawn to Christianity or like he struggles with identification of Christianity. And so it's hard to really say like he's a Christian statesman. Um, I don't think even he would describe himself that way. But if you look at individuals like our majority leader in the Senate, Senator John Thune of South Dakota, um, this is an evangelical uh believer who uh seeks to govern well, who seeks to steward his position of leadership and his position of influence well. Um so I would, and you know, I would highly commend him as a person who's conducted himself um with a great deal of character uh and great deal of faithfulness to the gospel in a in a very public way.

Brian Stiller 22:01

Tim, as a thinker and a writer and a teacher, um what's your best advice to a young person who is uh looking to their future, uh choosing a vocation, uh framing their ideas of what is good, bad, and indifferent. Uh choosing making choices about about what values would undergird their lives. Uh what's your best advice?

Tim Milosch 22:30

It is not an open buffet. It is not choose your own adventure. Um we live in a moral universe with a moral lawgiver, and so order your life there first. As Solomon says at the close of Ecclesiastes, fear God and keep his commandments. That's the chief end of man. Uh and I think if that's where you start, uh that pretty quickly siphons off whole swaths of contemporary secular culture and vocation.

Brian Stiller 23:00

The the the prime test of what's good is not what suits me.

Tim Milosch 23:06

Yep, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So be critical of your preferences, would be the the point I'd be making there. It's like just because you are just because something appeals to you, take the time to actually inquire why it appeals to you. Is it appealing to you because it appeals to like a uh desire? Okay, that's fine. But is that a is that a godly desire? Is that a desire that has been that you're laboring to bring under the lordship of Christ in your life? If not, then I probably wouldn't choose that as a vocation or career path that would be, you know, good for you, good for your soul. Um, so you know, steward your soul would be kind of like the way I would sum that up. Like you you have to account for your soul um or for the state of your soul or the health of your soul. Um that, and not to be that it's like some kind of self-help thing, uh self-help spirituality. Obviously, you have uh the Holy Spirit in your corner, you have Christ inter uh intercessing for you, and so lean into that. But I think I actually was just having a conversation yesterday with a student where we were kind of talking about uh talking about her future because she was approaching graduation and how is she thinking about graduation and uh what and I think there's a tendency, you know, rightly so, you know, you're entering uh you're entering full adulthood when you graduate college. You know, you do you there's a recognition that I need to take responsibility for my life and every level. Uh, but I think it also gets freighted with uh a certain determinism for a lot of college graduates, where you know, my first job choice is going to be absolutely determinative of my career track. And so I have to have that all figured out. And I think, I mean, you're smiling and I'm smiling because we both understand, like, no, you don't have to have that figured out that way. So, um, so what I've been telling students is one, you don't have to have it figured out to that level of completion. Uh, but two, be clear on what you must have in good order. And that is your standing before God. That is, you know, the health of your soul. Uh, that's not to say ignore the job, uh, the job market. That's not to say ignore the job track, but like let's put it in its proper place and let's not be deterministic about that first job out of school. At the end of the day, like focus on caring for yourself in the most practical sense, having your expenses covered, having your uh having your housing covered, and having uh your church covered in terms of where you're going. Like focus on the basics and then and then once you have those settled, we can talk about where you're going from here.

Brian Stiller 25:46

Tim, what drew you to faith in Christ?

Why Christ: Gentleness, Wisdom, Purpose

Tim Milosch 25:49

I think it probably would depend upon which uh season of life I was in. So as a child, uh as a child coming to grips with the idea of a God in the universe, uh, a little me and my uh sin, I think what drew me to faith in Christ was his gentleness, his forgiveness, this idea that um, because you know, being terrified of the judgment of God, right? So there's that uh component for sure. But as I grew into adulthood, what has drawn me more and more uh to Christ is this idea that as the perfect man, he doesn't just give us a eternal, you know, a vision for eternity, he gives us a vision for life here on earth uh in a very deep and meaningful way. And so what I find in Christ now is yes, that eternal, uh that eternal security, yes, that eternal rest, but also um that richness of purpose and that richness of wisdom in navigating a complex uh world. Uh, one of the things I usually uh do at the end of every year um on my podcast and on my Substack uh newsletter is I I usually review the year, I look ahead to the year, um, trying to talk about like what world events are are uh likely to be, you know, what trends are likely to be shaping our world. But I sign that off to my listeners and readers with something of a slogan that I've come to over the years, and that is look exiting one year and entering the next year with level heads and steady eyes. And I think that idea of level head and steady eyes is about having clarity of thought uh in the midst of the swirling mess of the world. And I think we can do that in Christ, and I think Christ gives us the model for doing that and living that way.

Brian Stiller 27:50

Tim, thanks so much for joining us in Evangelical 360.

Tim Milosch 27:53

Thank you, Brian. It's really been a pleasure.

Closing Notes And Calls To Action

Brian Stiller 27:56

Thank you for being a part of the second podcast with Tim. If you haven't heard his first podcast, be sure to check that one out. And please share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube. Feel free to suggest other topics or guests that we can include in our conversations on faith, belief, and the public square. To learn more about today's guest, check the show notes for links and info. And if you haven't already received my free ebook and newsletter, just go to Brianstiller.com. Thanks again. Until next time. Be sure to subscribe to Evangelical 360 on YouTube.