Ep. 66 / Another King: Why Religious Liberty Shapes Human Rights with Paul Marshall (Part 2)

Pressure is rising on believers worldwide, but the story is bigger than any single faith. In this episode we continue our conversation with Dr. Paul Marshall, a political theorist from Baylor University, who helps us trace threats to religious liberty all around the world. From a resurgent China tightening control, to Russia squeezing non-Orthodox churches, and jihadist networks migrating from the Middle East to African frontiers, as well as, religious nationalism hardening in South Asia. The result is a sobering map of persecution hotspots, from Nigeria and Sudan, to India’s volatile anti-conversion climate, and even Latin America’s democratic backsliding. 

Amid the headlines, Dr. Marshall returns to a simple, subversive confession: we have another King. That allegiance explains why authoritarians fear genuinely independent churches, even when they are peaceful, and why conversion stirs backlash in traditional societies suddenly flooded with choice. We unpack how modernity and the possibility of new birth collide, creating both opportunity for the gospel and tension with guardians of inherited order. 

From there, we draw a careful line between what Christians should expect from the state—protecting life, restraining violence, guarding basic liberties—to what the state must never attempt, such as shaping creeds and appointing religious leaders. Rather than chasing the allure of political persuasion or empire, the church should simply champion its traditional works of mercy: schools, hospitals, welcoming the immigrant, and caring for the poor. This is what bears witness to a different kingdom. 

If you'd like to learn more from Dr. Paul Marshall, you can purchase one of his most recent books, go to his website or follow him on Facebook. 

And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube! 

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Transcript

Setting The Stage With Paul Marshall

Brian Stiller 0:10

Welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm Brian Stiller, your host. This is the second in a two-part series with Dr. Paul Marshall. It's on the issue of Christians in public life, how we relate to the public sphere of politics as evangelical Christians. Paul Marshall is a Brit raised in Canada, living in the U.S., professor of political theory at Baylor University in Texas. His insights into what it means to be a Christian in today's world is particularly helpful. And this is the second in that series. Thanks for joining us. Now, Paul Marshall. Paul, let me just change subject here for a moment. You have uh an enormous history in following and understanding persecution of Christians in the world. You've had uh major relationship with Muslims and especially in Indonesia. Reports have shown the numbers of people who are being killed, Nigeria being one of one of the countries of I think more Christians have been killed in Nigeria in the last uh the last year than than in in years before. How would you define the the state of Christian freedom uh as it relates to persecution today?

China, Russia, And Shrinking Space

Jihadist Networks Shift To Africa

Religious Nationalism In South Asia

Paul Marshall 1:39

There is increased persecution of Christians. Uh but I would add there's increased religious persecution across the board, and that's increased deterioration with human rights and democracy. So you know, it's there are particular trends with Christians, but they're also part of a larger trend where democracy, using the term broadly, more free and open collective societies, they're getting weaker and weaker. And uh authoritarian societies, uh China, Russia, Iran, uh, are getting stronger. Um so there's an overall breakdown here. So that that affects uh Christians. But you're seeing now with the reassertive uh China, increased crackdowns on Christians. And uh, you know, just last week, you know, one of the largest uh mass arrests of Christians in years. So Canada, yeah, China's getting more repressive again. Um, also Russia, domestically, if you're not Russian Orthodox, if you're a Christian other than Russian Orthodox, uh you have a rough time in Russia right now, Catholics and evangelicals. Even well, dissident Orthodox, they're very courageous Russian Orthodox priests who denounce the war in Ukraine, and they end up in prison. So those things are getting worse. Um radical Islam is uh also worsening. You know, other countries are have been getting better, the Gulf states, uh, the United Emirates, and so on, places like uh Kuwait, uh Qatar, or Jordan, even Saudi Arabia. Uh there's been opening up though. Uh but there's a tendency, yeah. I'm talking about Westerners who think about Al-Qaeda uh attacking the United States, it's it's present in Afghanistan or um the Islamic State, ISIS in the Middle East all seem to have vanished off our radar screen. They've gone. No, they've moved. Africa. And uh Al Qaeda now has more members and followers than it ever has. ISIS does, but they're operating in Nigeria, they're operating in Mozambique, way down in the southeast, next to South Africa, even into South Africa, um, in Kenya, um, in Uganda, um, in Chad. The places where are the two big death tolls in conflict right now? Congo and Sudan. And in Sudan, you have a civil war, and at least they both can be pretty radical, but also one is backed by a radical Islamist faction, and they're now operating even in the Congo, and the deaths you mentioned in Nigeria. Um, some are by Fulani and northern, largely Muslim tribe herdsmen, not necessarily part of a terrorist organization, but that they're killing Christians. Uh, but ISIS is operating there, Al-Qaeda's there. And the death toll amongst Christians and moderate Muslims is in there, tens of thousands. Um we've we've got the resurgent authoritarian powers, uh, including, you know, communism hasn't gone away. There's still China, there's still North Korea, there's still Vietnam, though that's that's been easing up. And um radical Islam. And then you get religious nationalism, which you now find strongly in India, with with the BJP and its supportive elements, that uh much more wanting to make this a Hindu country. And uh that means um the uh repression of Muslims and Christians. I was um in India. In India. The uh one of my colleagues at the Hanson Institute, who's also a columnist in the Wall Street Journal, Walter Russell Mead, who I suggest everybody read, um, he writes about foreign affairs, international relations. Walter's a very committed Christian. I mean, and he's not writing about this all the time in his columns, he's doing foreign affairs, but strong Christian sensibilities. But he led a group to India to talk with Indian officials, and the background here is India and the United States are gonna need to be very strong allies against because they both have problems with China. But American academics, foreign policy types, a group of 10 or 12 senior influential people uh went to India um to uh be briefed by the Indians on their point of view of many issues on China and other things. But the first thing, one of the meetings that the Indian officials raised, was the matter of Christian conversion. In America? In India. Oh. And foreign missionaries. Now, I would say, you know, foreign missionaries, Christian foreign missionaries in India are usually professionals. They teach in seminaries and so on. They're usually not the evangelists, because Indians, people who know the culture are much better. And um, but this is a huge issue in India, enough that they would raise it with American, uh, an American delegation as the first thing. And uh so what happens is when you get um um Hindus becoming Christians in um in India, uh this violence, this widespread violence. There are hundreds, probably thousands of incidents a year. So too much, but in India, this religious nationalism becomes a problem for any religious minority. Sri Lanka's form of Buddhism, similarly, and Nepal. So I mentioned sort of radical forms of Islam as as one major thing. The uh authoritarian countries, including the remaining communist ones, and then religious nationalism, mainly in South Asia. These there's there's other instances, but these are the major sources of prosecutors.

Brian Stiller 8:19

So those those are three global trends that you see that ultimately impact the rights of people to make their own religious choices.

Paul Marshall 8:29

Yes. It is. A few others, they've Latin America's been getting worse. Um you've got Venezuela, you know, Nicaragua's been uh closing down churches kicking out Catholic bishops and so on. Uh, Venezuela's uh repressive Colombia, uh more so. And Latin America has been, the last 40 or 50 years, one of the most religiously free places um in the world. But some of the countries uh are now getting um much more repressive. They're returning to the old dictatorial methods of the strongman who will swash anything uh which opposes his rule.

Brian Stiller 9:13

And in the face of those three major trends that you've noticed, uh what is the strength of the gospel message in those places and during this time?

Latin America’s Democratic Backslide

“Another King” And Church Independence

Modernity, Choice, And Conversion Tensions

Paul Marshall 9:24

Firstly, we mentioned uh there is another king. Christianity has nearly always emphasized um the independence of the church from the state. They use different words, sacerdotium, regnum, and so on. Sometimes they wanted to take over the church, and uh Christians have messed this up all the time. But in principle, the church would be independent of the state. It would make its own decisions, it would choose its own uh leaders. When you get an authoritarian state, it wants to control everything. So China demands the right to appoint Catholic bishops, or at least co-appoint them. But when you get a church, a strong church, maybe good citizens, peaceful and whatever, but say, no, we do not accept the final authority of the state over what we do within the church. We have another king. And if there's anything an authoritarian president or king or party chairman doesn't want to hear, is they're sitting talking about another king. Even they say, no, he's not gonna bring an army, not gonna bring tanks in here, but there's another authority, if there's an authority that we we cannot disobey. That brings the action, the confession that there is another king and the independence of the church. A second thing is more so emphasized by evangelicals is change. Uh, one of the reasons people, a lot of people in India or other societies, worry about Christianity is it changes things. It undercuts traditions. I'll give an example. Let's take Indonesia. I do mean Indonesia this time. Um 200 years ago, you're a villager living in a village in Java. You don't wonder about what you're going to be when you grow up. You're going to be a peasant. Because your mom and dad are peasants, your grandpeasants, everybody, you live in a village. You plant, you grow things, that's it. You're not thinking about being a doctor. You've never even heard of a university. So you don't wonder about where you're going to live. We're going to live here. There's probably no roads there, just paths. Uh, you don't worry about what religion you're going to be. You're a Muslim. Everybody you know is a Muslim. I don't know anybody who isn't a Muslim. So it's a traditional society. You're born into it. Uh, you become what you're born into. Then life changes. What we call some modernization or globalization or whatever, but a road comes into the village. Uh, and then there may be printing, pamphlets, things things you could read from somewhere else. Then there's a radio, and then there's a TV, and you become more and more uh aware of other things outside your village, of other objects. You could be something else. Uh yeah, you could go to a high school and get a job as a tactician, or maybe even university. There are there are different religions. So, what before you could just take for granted, it wasn't an issue. Life, it's like the weather, it's it's what it is. And now you're faced with the question of choice. You could be something else. One of the essences of modernity brings it is choice to be something else. And that's this produces two things. One is if you're an imam in such a village, or you're a pastor in a Christian village, certain things could be taken for granted. You weren't really challenged. But now there's other options. Your flock could be a word, there could be something else. So, whereas beforehand, shift the metaphor. There's new winds blowing through, and you've got to push back against them. And one reason for this sort of more militant, stronger militancy in religion, including radicalism, is to push back against the corroding effects of modernity. To stay where you are, you've got to push back more strongly against these forces. So you're getting stronger religion. But the other thing, particularly with avanjaroist, is traditional society says you will be what you were born to be. And then someone says to you, you can be born again. You don't have to be what you were originally born to be. So evangelicalism, I don't think by choice, it fits in with this modernity of where people are facing more options than they ever had before. And um with with evangelicals, Catholics as well, but much more central with evangelical. You could come to know Jesus Christ, and there could be changes in your life. Uh, this becomes an opportune moment here. So, but that also means uh people more accustomed to more traditional way of life um see conversions, see evangelicals as very much a threat to that. Um it's as much a fear of modern currents as it is of Christianity itself. But the two sometimes get equated.

Brian Stiller 15:11

Paul, your description of Canada-the-U.S. relationship and the dynamics, especially as it relates to faith, uh and the evangelical community is very much a part of that. But as I travel to other other countries, for example, Brazil, El Salvador, you've had a very small evangelical community, uh, mainly Roman Catholic, but now the evangelical community is growing. In some cases, some of the Latin American countries, it's now the dominant Christian faith. So they look at their country, they look at the way it's been ruled, they look at the morality, and they say, we would want our country to be more Christian, more religious, but Christian at best. And that so they look at the at the gospel. We have a gospel in our tradition, in our the message that you, the community you and I have been raised in, we come to Jesus, our lives are saved, we are born again, we are transformed by his spirit, and we are promised eternal life. But then I look at my world around me and I see the kinds of things that are going on that I find either disturbing or abhorrent. And I say, I would like my country to be more religious or even more Christian. So we have we have 2,000 years of history where Christians were persecuted in Rome, and then they took over Rome. Somewhere in between there is our understanding of the creation and God's concern for that creation. Us coming to faith in Christ, being transformed by the Spirit, growing in the church, being salt and light, and wanting our country to somehow have a stronger or a more a greater affinity towards Christian values and vision. So I kind of muddled it all off for you. Help us make sense of that.

Paul Marshall 17:20

Part of it is um if we look at one and an established church, that is the state says this is the official religion, we may fund it. Um it will be given privileges which are not given to other religious bodies. At the worst, other religious groups uh may be persecuted. Um that we need to reject.

Brian Stiller 17:48

So that's been the prime model in many European countries?

Beyond Establishment: What States Should Do

Pastors: Form Citizens And Serve Neighbors

Paul Marshall 17:52

It has been, and still is. Now, there's establishment, you know, establishment can cover a whole range. The um the Church of England is established in England. And uh when Charles took his coronation oath a couple of years ago, it was to uphold the Protestant Church of England. That's part of the oath of the king, established church, but it doesn't mean a whole lot. The government doesn't fund it, it's got financial problems, it doesn't, its privileges are pretty small, it's mainly ceremonial. So you have that at one end. At the other end, you've got now the Russian Orthodox Church, where uh other churches are repressed, may be imprisoned if they become uh too public. Uh if someone wanted to switch from Russian Orthodox to Pentecostal, they could come in for a rough time. So you're getting jailings and physical persecution there. You know, something like the Church of Norway or the Church of Sweden has a sort of privileged position, but hasn't meant much. In Germany, no established churches, uh, but a portion of the taxes. You could you can get a portion of your taxes sent to a church, whether it was Lutheran or Catholic. So the uh German churches have lots of money. Not many people, not many people in the pews. So establishment makes churches comfortable. You know, if they got money coming in, they actually don't need the people in the pews and set off in their own direction. So uh, you know, for the sake of the church, it should not be established. I think that's one of the first things to say. With the rest of wanting to make the country more Christian, obviously the leavening uh effect of the witness of congregations, of individual Christians, of Christian organizations seeking to model particular ways of life, whether that's looking after uh orphans or widows, uh opening hospitals, things of this kind. Traditionally Christians have within the West, especially Christian movements, have started these things. Then we need to distinguish, we need to know what it is the state should be doing, what is its role? What things should it be involved in, what shouldn't it be? We've already said one. No, you shouldn't be writing creeds, you shouldn't be writing liturgies, you shouldn't be appointing bishops and pastors. That's one of them. Uh should you be trying, shouldn't you be ending slavery? Yes. Should we be stopping murder? Yes. Uh so uh as Christians, we should certainly push to get the state to do things which are within its area. So I would say, you know, dealing with abortion, which is a protection of human life, that is a state function. And I think Christians wisely uh should stress that. In other areas to do uh with, say, the nature of marriage in a society where most of the people do not profess to be Christian, that's going to be a hard thing to uphold. And we may need to have plural marriages, which are quite, you know, different kinds of marriages. It's very common around the world and has been in the West, and somewhere like Egypt. If you marry in a Catholic church, you're married in a Coptic church, or married as a Muslim, different rules. So uh there may need to be plurality, but my focus would be very important in political theology to say what should the state be involved in and what shouldn't be. It's not in the general business of upholding morality, but it is. In certain kinds of morality, particularly those that involve human life and human suffering. So we need to be very wise on that particular score. So I would uh you know distinguish between a range of different things.

Brian Stiller 22:20

So you have a pastor who's listening to us and saying, what should I be encouraging my people to think and to do as citizens of my community of my country?

Christian Roots Of Rights And Law

Paul Marshall 22:35

I would say as a congregation ourselves, what the members of the church do, what organizations connected with the church might do, social welfare organizations, uh missions, uh immigrant help centers, orphanages, old people's homes, all of these things to support those types of organizations where Christians are doing things themselves, because they're good for their own sake, but also a model and a witness. And then with the government, uh for things the government should be involved. I mentioned before questions of life issues, and now medical assistance in dying, where that's going to lead. Um, those put those particular issues, uh, but also those particularly stressing the poor and the needy. Uh, make sure you cover those uh those things across the board. Uh to some extent, go off the rails, but to some extent that you know the Catholic Church has been better in modeling uh these types of things. Bishops, a strong stand on immigration and abortion. Uh that's where you'd hit them. And uh in terms of the leavening influence, um an awful lot of what our modern societies take for granted uh come from Christianity. And they become so ingrained, people don't know this. You probably know Tom Holland's book, Dominion. He says, you know, modern society with its stress on equality and rights and stuff, it's just recycling Christianity. It just doesn't remember it anymore. There's no grounds within secularism for any of these things. So our society is being shaped by Christian ideas. When we talk about just war, you know, uh, what are the just criteria of wars? It's not just about war, but how you train soldiers. What is your military manual for how you can conduct things? Um, that's been shaped uh by a Christian ethos. An example I gave is an article dealing with forgiveness. I said, bankruptcy law. It used to be that if you couldn't pay your debts, you were put in a debtor's prison until you paid them. Of course, if you're in a prison, you know how are you going to pay debts? So you may rot there forever. By the way, John Wesley's father was in a debtor's prison a couple of years. I just discovered. Um but a Christian influence saying, you know, apart from justice, you know, is forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. We introduced bankruptcy laws, which have an element of forgiveness. If you can't pay your debts, well, you take a portion of what you have and sweat it out. Then a portion of it is forgiven. Uh, maybe some penalty to make sure you don't go bankrupt every year and get away with it. But here you you have a pedestrian law we never think about, bankruptcy law. That shows a historical Christian influence. And so much of uh in our society, that is uh the notion of rights, human rights would be meaningless without that background.

Brian Stiller 25:57

Where did where did our the UN Declaration of Human Rights, where did the idea of the rights of the individual, where did it come from?

Global Examples Of Courageous Witness

Reading To Think Christianly

Paul Marshall 26:06

Way, way back, uh canon law, church law in the 11th century, that's the first place we find a notion of subjective sort of individual rights, natural rights. It wasn't an Enlightenment thing, it wasn't a 17th-century thing, wasn't a modernity thing. It came right out of the heart of the church. And I'm not saying Catholic Church because there was no split there in its inheritance of Protestants and Catholics. That's that's where it came from. With the UN Declaration in the uh in the committees leading up to it, the great French Catholic philosopher Jacques Valentin uh shaped a lot of this in the uh committee which which drafted that. Uh Charles Malik, Lebanese Marandise Catholic, was probably the single strongest shaping force. There were others too, the strong confusion elements, but a very committed Catholic uh was probably the largest shaping force in that. Formation of the European Union uh was a similar thing. And what did it center around? The dignity of the human person. And not everybody who signed it would agree, but for Christians, that goes back to we are made in the image of God. Everybody, even the nastiest person, is made in the image of God. So they need to be protected and guaranteed things. So we see Christian influences in so many things around it. It doesn't have to be this overt law. All these things are being shaped. A Canadian reference. So he had to take the notes and get it and write it up in some semblance form. And then the book he wrote about it, he commented people always see trying to see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a compromise between sort of Western liberals and then the socialists, the Marxists. So it has a bit of says, no. So it's just left and right. He says the two major protagonists were the Catholics and the Communists. With the Communists, a very poor second. So the European, the the Vatican, the uh the Catholics shaping the European Union. That's European Union has lots of bad things now, but the initial impulses uh very much uh Christian. The Geneva Law uh Convention uh on dealing with war, the treatment of prisoners, a very committed uh Swiss, Swiss French uh Calvinist, who's a principal figure behind that. There are so many avenues we miss because they're slow, they're gradual, they're shaping it. Um examples I with with Western Christians, particularly English speaking, we often look back to the very great example of William Wilberforce uh fighting to stop the slave trade, then stop slavery itself, to reform factory work, and things like that. A great example. Uh but we need, and this is an international audience, and they will know this, the um other examples. Martin Lee, a very great um uh democracy activist. Well, now Jimmy Lai, the Catholic publisher, he's imprisoned for resisting authoritarianism in Hong Kong. We've got Jimmy Lai as a hero of the faith. Martin Lee, an earlier one, I was with him, and he given a speech, I commended him for his work in Hong Kong. He says, Yeah, let's pray together. Uh, in the Philippines, in Korea, in many other examples. We've got lots of major Christian figures reforming societies around the world. And we, all of us, but especially Westerners, uh, need to be much more aware of that.

Brian Stiller 30:24

Paul, there is uh an enormous amount of information and ideas that that flow back and forth. There's a great divide between the left and right that you that seem to uh demonstrate different commitments. So I'm I'm listening to you. As I listen, I want to arrange my my mind and my reading and my thinking in such a way that I am I'm really biblical and I'm not caught by some kind of fundamentalist uh twitch. Where do I begin? How do I frame my mind? What is the best resource that I could I could I could access to help me think Christianly about what it means to be an active Christian in the social political world I find myself in?

Closing And Ways To Subscribe

Paul Marshall 31:25

We have tons of books. I I would say for the the general reader, uh, one of the uh best person is another sort of Canadian American, David Koyzis, K-O-Y-Z-I-S, written a cultural books on Christian witness of politics, how do we understand politics? And just has uh his latest one on what it means to be a citizen. He's especially good at giving examples and going through it practically and so on. So um the title of the books has escaped me, but maybe it's just down the road in Hamilton. Look up books by him. I think they're accessible to most people. And then in terms of um a lot of you know political theology, we've got the work of Oliver O'Donovan, though some of his books are I don't understand. Um but uh again, one one of his emphases is um how the gospel slowly shape society, you know, not always dramatically, but now the things we take for granted have come from continuing Christian witness. So I would, you know, for people seminarians or pastors, I I I would seek to look at uh Oliver's work. Uh for others more generally, I would strongly recommend David Koyzis' work.

Brian Stiller 33:01

Paul, thanks again for giving us this time and helping us understand this complex world and uh align ourselves with the King of Kings. Thanks again.

Paul Marshall 33:13

Okay, thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Stiller 33:15

Thanks for joining us in this second of a two-part series with Dr. Paul Marshall, political theorist, professor, and author, as we consider the issue of evangelical faith and the public life of our own nation. You can go to the show notes and get further information. And if you haven't subscribed, just hit that button. Also, go to YouTube and join us in conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today. Until next time. Don't miss the next interview. Be sure to subscribe to Evangelical360 on YouTube.