Ep. 73 / Surprising Trends: The World Is Getting More Religious with Todd Johnson

Everyone has heard the storyline that modern life squeezes religion into irrelevance. Then the numbers show up and the story flips. In this episode we're joined by Dr. Todd M. Johnson, Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and a key voice behind the World Christian Encyclopedia. Over the course of our conversation we walk through what global religious demographics actually reveal about faith in 2026 and beyond.

We talk about why the world keeps getting more religious, how the collapse of communism reopened public space for belief, and why Islam’s growth is driven largely by fertility rates and changing health outcomes. We also consider the real effects of secularization in Europe, North America, Australia, and New Zealand, along with an underappreciated dynamic: non-religious populations tend to have fewer children, which changes long-term projections. Add in migration, and many countries are becoming more religiously diverse, not less, with newcomers often practicing faith more intensely as a way of holding identity together. 

We also highlight the often-overlooked role of women in everyday Christian life, plus practical ideas for pastors who want worship, stories and prayer to reflect the whole body of Christ, and the picture and promise of Revelation 7:9. If you'd like to learn more from Dr. Todd M. Johnson and the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, you can go to their website or purchase his books online. 

And please don't forget to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube! 

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Transcript

Welcome And Big Global Questions

Brian Stiller 0:10

Hello and welcome to Evangelical 360. I'm your host, Brian Stiller. What are the big questions people are asking about Christianity in today's world? How is faith growing or declining across regions? And where do evangelicals fit within this rapidly shifting global landscape? On today's episode of Evangelical 360, we turn to one of the most trusted voices who can help us make sense of that, Dr. Todd Johnson. Todd is director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary in Boston. And there he leads groundbreaking research on religious demographics and global mission traffic. His work and most notably the World Christian Encyclopedia has shaped how scholars and church leaders and policymakers understand the changing phase of Christianity from the explosive growth in the global cells to the complexities of secularization here in the West. Today he helps us explore where Christianity is thriving, where it is struggling, and what the future might hold for evangelicals in an age of extraordinary change. And thank you for joining me for this conversation. Please consider sharing this episode with a friend. And when you do, please hit the subscribe button. You can also join the conversation on YouTube in the comments below.

Todd Johnson 2:07

Wonderful to be with you.

Brian Stiller 2:09

Todd, let's let's jump in at the at the big picture, the macro quick picture. What does the religious world or the map of the world look like today?

Todd Johnson 2:22

Well, the main thing is it's more religious than anyone could have imagined because it wasn't very long ago when uh sociologists and other people were saying that it was going to disappear famously by the year 2000. This is back in the 60s and 70s, but they didn't anticipate one um set of major events, and that was the collapse of communism. So, as a especially in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, and what that did is it sort of turned things around uh demographically, and the uh uh religious composition of the world is such that every single day, even through today, is more religious than the day before. So there's there's a resurgence of religion uh on the global level, and that's not the kind of world that most of us would have expected uh as late as 2026. But we project even into the future that the world is going to continue to be more religious.

Brian Stiller 3:28

Berger in his book Rumor for Angels was discounting the possibility of any kind of survival of religion.

Todd Johnson 3:35

That's right. Yeah.

Brian Stiller 3:36

So the fall of communism, did it simply open the door for more religious activity? Did it take the heel off the neck of people interested in faith?

Todd Johnson 3:47

Yeah, and and um it didn't have a lasting power. I mean, in in one sense, you know, everybody was an atheist one day, and within a few weeks or perhaps months, everyone was back to what they were before uh communism, uh, as far as the religious composition. And that happened so fast and uh has had an effect outside of communism as well. So uh people be you know returning to their uh Christian roots, like in in Russia, or to their Muslim roots, as in Albania or in Uzbekistan, places like that. So um it it really uh happened pretty quickly. And and Berger himself uh was uh someone who uh later said, you know, I was wrong uh in this earlier period to say that religion was going to disappear. And uh it's better, it gets better than that for me because I actually ended up working with him at Boston University, and he he um encouraged our research on religion around the world because I already have a center for Christianity, but he gave me a place to work on religion, and I worked uh with him pretty closely, showing that the world was more religious all up until his death, I think in 2017.

Why Islam Keeps Growing

Brian Stiller 5:11

I remember at a conference at uh George Washington University, he was sitting uh on the platform in front of a table, and he was introduced, and the he put his hand up, and the first thing he said was, I was wrong. So so Todd, what are the fastest growing religious movements? If the if if each day the world is more religious than it was the day before, what are the some of the fastest growing ones?

Todd Johnson 5:41

Well, uh the second largest uh religion in the world uh is Islam. And uh Islam is one of the fastest of the large religions, because if you're a small religion, it's pretty easy to grow fast for you know you can double your size. But when you're already 27 or 28 percent of the world's population, then you you know you can't grow um too fast. But um the reason the reason that Islam is growing so fast, the main reason, is um uh high fertility rates. And and fertility is is really one of the most important of the demographic factors in in how religion changes. And actually, and and coupled with that, uh happening at the same time is um is lower death rates among Muslims as they as they have better health care and and so on. So so people live longer, and that keeps your numbers up, and and have more children. And then you have conversion. Conversion does happen uh for Muslims uh around the world, but it's the main driver is essentially larger families.

Brian Stiller 6:57

What has secularization done to impede this religious growth, be it Muslim Christianity or Hinduism or any other religion?

Todd Johnson 7:07

Yeah, well, it's definitely a real thing, and it's it and it's having an impact, especially in uh I guess in the Western world, um, where many Muslims and of course Christians live. So we see the the impact of uh secularization of people converting from Christianity or Islam, let's say, um, and becoming uh non-religious. That's the main group. Um some people go further than being non-religious and become atheists, but uh most become non-religious. But then non-religious people andor atheists have fewer children than almost anybody else. And so they that their conversion doesn't really pick up with demographic growth, you know, or of uh family size and that sort of a thing. So it hasn't had as strong of an effect as was predicted, but it is a real thing, and um, and it is affecting really, really primarily the Christian world, um, because secularization in Europe and and North America, um, Australia, New Zealand uh is all having an impact. Uh, whereas it's it's a a slower process in in most of the Muslim world.

Brian Stiller 8:33

So secularization as a process, it uh tends to diminish people from being active in their faith and also creates an environment where there is a lower birth rate. So do you have those two factors that uh that that combine to give some kind of force to its uh impact?

Todd Johnson 8:56

Yes, well, always um because that those are you know that's how religion changes over time. You know, people people leave their their faith, and that's measured pretty well around the world uh in surveys and that sort of a thing. But uh, and then and then um studying those groups over many years now has shown them to have fewer children. And then that and you know the the starting point for measuring religion is to is to measure children in the faith of their parents until such a time as they decide to leave, which is often you know, at an older age, uh you know, over the teens into college age. Um, and so you you know, we count the children of atheists as atheists, you know. But but and actually many of those convert into religion too. That's a whole nother, it's like a backdoor. So, so um that that's why it's not quite so simple as it might first seem.

Brian Stiller 10:02

Now we have migration, which is at an all-time high. And obviously, people when they migrate, they carry with them their faith. So, how is this changing the face of the earth?

China’s Surprising Religious Pressure Points

Todd Johnson 10:15

Okay, well, that that would get us to you know the second um big trend in religion. The first being that the world's becoming uh more religious, the second is that the countries of the world are becoming more religiously diverse, and migration is a major factor in that. Um, so that uh people are moving from one place to another, and everyone who moves brings religion or non-religion with them. Um, and studies have shown that, for example, when Cambodians came to the United States, um, and it was mainly Long Beach, California, where they were in the beginning, um, studies showed that they were actually stronger Buddhists in the United States than they were back in Cambodia. And the reason for that is is uh uh the need to reassert uh one's identity in a new place, you know, to show who you really are. And and it becomes apparent that, you know, for Cambodians, Buddhism is a major part of their identity, and then temples were built and that sort of a thing. So um you might think that you know people who move from uh Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim places in the world to the West would immediately become secular, but but it it doesn't work like that. Although some some people do uh lose their faith in the Western context. Are there religious hotspots, places where there is unusual activity? Well, yeah, I mean I mean, in the sense that um I mean China is a place where um, you know, which is one of the communist places that um continued to hang on to communism after the collapse in the Soviet Union. And religion uh stands out in a situation like that. So the the Chinese government has had difficulty with Muslims up in the Northwest. Um they've had difficulty with the the Christian churches, they've had difficulty with different Buddhist groups, you see. So so surprisingly, a place that says, you know, we're committed to no religion actually has a lot of religious people in it of very varying kinds. So, and and China is, you know, of course, now the second largest country in the world. So um religion is um a force all around the world, and even in a lot of surprising places, like China, the world's second largest country, which says that religion really doesn't have a place. And yet they've got uh Muslims up in the northwest who are just simply asserting their identity um and have been persecuted by the government. You have Christians in in uh house churches, Christians in uh the government churches, uh, which is a movement that's been growing. Uh again, despite lots of restrictions. Uh, you have all sorts of um Buddhist groups that that also find it hard uh to express uh their faith. And so um a place like China would be someplace you'd expect to see very little happening, and yet a lot is happening. And whatever happens in China has an effect on the global situation, both you know, through through economics and all of and and politics, but also just pure demographics given its size. So so there are there are religious um uh resurgences around the world that are very unlikely and and uh quite important.

Brian Stiller 14:08

Todd, let's narrow this in a bit to the Christian community globally, which I guess is about two and a half billion, but you you talk about the gravitational center of Christianity moving south. Uh in your studies, how did you come to that assessment and what does that mean?

Todd Johnson 14:28

Yes, uh well, it's largely a demographic reality. Um, in other words, simply figuring out how many Christians there are in each country in the world. This is what David Barrett began 60 years ago, and which we've continued here uh in Boston. And what we discovered, uh which was Barrett was beginning to discover at in about the year 2000 or so, is that uh Christianity demographically speaking, you know, just the numbers of Christians showed that, you know, even as recent as 1900, something like 82 or 83 percent of all Christians were Europeans or or North Americans, you know, up in the global north is how it's referred to. Um, and and that meant that only you know 17%, 18% were in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Oceania. So that's where we were, uh just uh you know 120 years ago. Um what was surprising is that by the year 2000, um it was it was almost up to the uh two-thirds number, uh, you know, 67 percent, uh, that were now in the global south. And uh in fact, our our um projections show uh a world upside down, or maybe upside right, if you think about it a little bit, uh by the year 2075, 83% of all Christians will be in the global south. And that's where most of the people are in the world. So so it's actually and and global south you mean as yeah, global south is a United Nations designation that refers to Africa, Asia, um, Latin America, and Oceania. So it it it's it's not the equator, it's it's a it's a way that countries are are you know put put together. Uh and you could you could say majority world used to be the non-Western world. I mean, all of these things have slightly different meanings, but but the impact is is what is so clear. Um, and and a world in which 83% of all Christians are Africans, Asians, Latin Americans, Oceanians, is a is a world that looks more like uh like Revelation 7.9 or the Abrahamic covenant, the blessing of all the peoples of the world um uh as Christians uh really should look more like this. So in fact, 1900 wasn't that wasn't the good old days. That was an anomaly um which we're really actually still struggling with now. Are we a European faith that is spread around the world, or were we actually Asian uh or African in the beginning? And I can mention some things about that, about how how we in one sense we're regaining our original um character as a as a uh a faith of all peoples, a faith of um you know all these different places around the world. So that that to me is is uh quite significant.

Brian Stiller 17:46

And Todd, would would that give reason for why uh the the church is growing in the global south, but in the but in the kind of the North American community it's not?

Mapping Christian Traditions And Movements

Todd Johnson 17:58

Well, there's that's back to those uh religious dynamics again, because Christians in Africa, for example, have uh much bigger families than Christians in Europe or Christians in North America. So just just by the size of families, uh you would expect Africans to uh gain a greater uh percentage of you know of the Christian population, which is true. Every single day we become more African, but it's not just um families and babies, it's also conversions. So Africa has a higher conversion rate into Christianity than we find in in North America or Europe, and uh Christians uh in North America and Europe are losing younger people at the same time. Um, so so you can see why this maybe happened so quickly across the 20th century into the 21st, because things were slowing down in the northern world and they were speeding up in the southern world. So that that's why you know with it it all happened in a sense uh within our lifetime. Um and in fact, if 1981 is when we figured out that um Christians were uh were in a half and half situation between North and South. Um so so anybody who was born after 1981 has lived their entire life with Christians uh in the global south in the majority.

Brian Stiller 19:37

Bring your analysis a little closer in to see how this global community of Christians, two and a half billion, how that configures with Catholic, uh Eastern Orthodox, Evangelical Pentecostals, mainline Protestants.

Todd Johnson 19:57

With Christianity as a whole, we consider um self-identification, which is another United Nations um freedom, uh human freedom, uh, that if you say you're something, uh if you say you belong to a particular religion, you you know, we have to believe you. So um what that means is that we then have these traditions which which we've divided up uh Christianity into in order to better understand uh it's you know the various types of Christians. And we simplified it actually um maybe about 15 or 20 years ago because when we built a global taxonomy of religion, we wanted them to be somewhat even. So we didn't want 10 or 15 kinds of Christians at the top level, we simplified it to four, and that you've mentioned the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Protestants, and the Independents. Those are the four. And then there are two movements that go across those four. One is evangelicals, the other is Pentecostal charismatics. And so part of what we, you know, what we're trying to do is to, you know, compare and contrast these. Um, but you but you might know that um that this shift to the South has actually impacted all four of these uh types. One of our first things uh that happened when I moved to to Gordon Conwell here in uh 2003 uh is two years later, uh uh John Paul II passed away, and on the front cover of the New York Times was one of our maps showing the shift of Christianity to the South. Because the question is who are Catholics going to elect as a pope now that their faith is strongly African and Asian and Latin American, especially, you know. So this has been been a well-known uh fact, I think, for the uh even publicly a fact for at least 20 some years. Christians have known this a bit longer, you know, especially within the leadership of Christians. Uh, but I think a lot of people are aware that this is happening. And it it also has impacted the movement. So, in fact, both of the movements, the evangelical movement and the Pentecostal charismatic movement, are deeper into the into the global south. Uh, and the irony for evangelicals is that evangelicals in 1900 were further into the north because that that was our origins were in Britain and and the United States and other places. We were something like 92% um global north in in 1900. So we we were even more up there, and now we've shifted faster than anybody else, and now we're 90% in the south approximately. So, and the same is true of uh Pentecostals and charismatics, um, which is which I would say the shift, uh which is the single most um perhaps important and noticeable thing about Christianity uh over the last hundred and some years, the shift is good news for people for faithful Christians of all kinds, because we believe that our message is a message for all the peoples of the world. So you don't want to be in one place, uh over-identified with one place, uh, when we're actually a global religion. So this is this is the the most exciting time to be a Christian of any kind, including an evangelical or a Pentecostal charismatic.

Brian Stiller 23:57

Would you consider the Pentecostals part of the evangelical community?

Todd Johnson 24:02

Yes, um, and not not all, not all, uh, but it comes back to self-identification. Um, you know, um I was just looking at our atlas uh that we just published, and uh we have the largest evangelical denomination in the world is the assemblies of God in Brazil, you see, so and because assemblies of God, even as a Pentecostal church, self-identifies as evangelical. Um, and so we would count all assemblies of God um members around the world as evangelicals because they themselves count themselves uh as evangelicals. Um and and so yes, so so so many Pentecostals uh are are included in any uh any evangelical um population.

Brian Stiller 24:59

And where would you find the evangelicals are growing the fastest?

Are There 350M Or 900M Evangelicals

Todd Johnson 25:03

Well, that's definitely again the global south, but it's not so so so evangelicals are in the same situation with birth rates, very large families in Africa, in particular, many places in Asia, but conversions are also quite strong in Africa. In in Asia, they're also strong in Latin America, where most people are Catholic. And so there's been there's been quite a lot of conversion, like Brazil has has become much more evangelical over time. And of course, that includes the assemblies of God. So so yes, we've we've seen that. But I would say that some of the um some of the newest and fastest growing um places are places that were uh had very few Christians in them. A place like Nepal is is is a place that there were almost no Christians, you know, uh 60, 70 years ago. And now probably over a million, and and a good proportion of those are evangelicals. So so yeah, if you want to see the newest evangelicals, go to Nepal, go to India. Cambodia is another place with a strong evangelical presence. Um, I I was just there um last year and and uh spoke to some leaders in the evangelical community. Um, and it's really exciting to see what's going on in a place like Cambodia. So those are the places to look for new growth. Um and and it's almost always somewhere that is not majority Christian. And that, of course, is good news again for those of us that believe that our faith is for all the peoples of the world, to see brand new people um coming into the faith. Mongolia is another place that that has a wonderful, uh small but growing evangelical community and wonderful leaders. Um uh so it so it's it's a again an exciting time to see what's happening.

Brian Stiller 27:19

Todd, out of the two and a half billion Christians, how many of those would self-identify as evangelicals?

How The Global South Changes Evangelicalism

Todd Johnson 27:26

Yeah, so so actually we just finished uh a major uh project um trying to better measure evangelicals around the world, uh, because this is a such a key movement within Christianity. And I and we learned something I would say new, which is more nuanced than in the past, because in the past we were we were sort of trapped by our strong commitment to to self-identification. And and so we would say it was in the you know around 300 million, maybe 400 million uh of self, you know, strictly self-identified. But we knew that we were missing a lot of people uh who were really in the in the evangelical universe uh beyond self-identification. And and one group that's famously has not self-identified, but which is really part of part of what anyone would consider uh evangelicalism is the African American Church in the United States, which considered evangelicals to be a white movement, really, um, in you know, in the situation in the United States. And yet, you know, the the if you think of the characteristics of any evangelical, you would say these people are part of this movement. But but there's where uh where the term gets in the way of you know of one's actual uh practice. So we looked all around the world in two different ways. Um we first we looked and we said, you know, besides the assemblies of God, there are many Pentecostal and charismatics who are closely aligned with evangelicalism, even if they don't say that they're evangelicals on a survey or whatever. So so we want to include them because they're comfortable in the evangelical world and they're at the conferences and and so on. So we we figured out who they were, and and that added a about 250 million more, from let's say 350 million. So that's where you get to 600 million, which is a number that's used by um a lot of evangelical groups, and that's a fair number. But we we went beyond that with this latest research, and we said, you know, there's another group of people, and that is uh Protestants and independents in the global south who who maybe grew up outside of uh maybe the Protestant experience and the evangelical experience, but in the same way as those people that we just identified who are really part of the evangelical family. There's another group of people uh in mainly in the majority world, the global south, who really uh are they at our conferences as well, see, because they feel comfortable there. And you know, we added another 300 million people in that category, and that that brings you to 900 million. Um so so I think I think um you could say you know, it's 350, it's 600, or it's 900, but it depends on what you're trying to say about it. If you're really strict, if you loosen it up a little bit, if you loosen it up more, we were using the term, and we're about to publish this in a in an article, um, we're using the term wider evangelicalism. I think that's a fair way to talk about it. It's a little wider than than um the self-identification, even a little wider than when you include uh Pentecostals, but it's a reality. It it you know when you when when the World Evangelical Alliance has a meeting, in a sense, it has a clientele of 900 million. I think that's a fair way to say it. And actually, I know the the World Evangelical Alliance wants to serve people that are adjacent to the community, and that would take you well beyond a billion. Um, so so I I think you could say there's 900 million. Uh uh, you'll have to you'll have to think of that. We're gonna publish it. Um, but you could certainly say there's 600 million, and and I and and that's been said for a while now. Um, and and uh so so it's it's this is how these kind of uh demographic studies are. They're very difficult. But we wanted to to uh provide uh the movement with uh sort of a peer-reviewed, independent assessment, and then that's going to be coming out quite soon.

Brian Stiller 32:21

Todd, to what degree has the evangelical church been changed by this preponderance of numbers in the global south? Is that by its very nature changing the message or the approach?

Todd Johnson 32:36

I think so. Um I I'm actually I'm quite sure. And and uh it's a healthy change uh for the most part. I mean, there's always problems. Um but I think the the the biggest thing um would be the the communitarian nature of the cultures that are let's say newly introduced to evangelicalism as in the last 50 years or so. Um and and the you mean like like like I'm part German, um, and I'm I'm I'm uh an individualist, you know. I I think of things I I mean when I was a teenager, I read the whole Bible through like two or three times. The problem is every time it said you in the Bible, I thought it meant me. But all as you know from seminary, almost all of the references to you in the scriptures are plural, and that I think is the change. You know, I I find it hard to think as a community, even though I'm dedicated to one locally and globally, but it's not intuitive for me. And I think all the people coming in who've come in over the last many decades, bring this communitarian view, which is so healthy for uh global evangelicalism, global Christianity, because we're we're fundamentally communitarian, you know. Um, and and I've seen it in so many different ways in interacting with Christians from around the world. And and I've I think I've actually changed for the better for being part of this more communitarian ideal, you know, because I I mean I've lived in Singapore uh for for a couple of years, I've lived in Thailand for a couple of years. In both of those cases, everyone around me had a strong communitarian cultural uh approach that was was part of their faith when as a Christian. And I I think that to me is is the biggest gift um to global evangelicalism uh over the last uh decades.

Brian Stiller 34:59

Currently there is an enormous political alignment in some countries, more specifically in the U.S. Are you finding that evangelicals in other parts of the world uh align themselves with some kind of uh Christian nationalism or a high identity with their own national uh their own country, their own sense of political alignment? Do you find that happening in other places?

Reverse Mission And The Immigration Backlash

Todd Johnson 35:30

Yes. And of course it happens outside of Christian contexts, you know, like like in India or Myanmar or or China for that matter. I mean, I I think it's a human tendency to want to be first or best or however you want to put it or greatest. Uh, I think it's a human tendency. Um, and there are Christian uh examples, like Hungary would would be another one, or Russia for that example, or for that for that um uh matter, uh Russia has a problem with with Christian nationalism, um, nationalism and Christian nationalism with the Orthodox Church there. But but I think it's a human problem. Um and Christians uh are tempted just as many other people are. You know, the the the gospel for all peoples, you know, it really it's a vision of of equality, a vision of justice uh across the world's peoples. So I think it's it's clearly out of place. And and evangelicals should seem seemingly know better, too, because we have this global view uh of who we are, and and that should sort of uh uh put out the flames of Christian nationalism or of wanting to be the greatest or the best. I mean, we've we've got good New Testament examples of that that sentiment being on the wrong side of you know what Jesus was teaching us. So um, yeah, I I feel like uh well I feel maybe I'm saying too that that global evangelicalism, the WEA, other ways of bringing people together, is maybe an antidote to nationalisms of various kinds. Because we want people from all these countries, but we don't want them to think that they're the best. Uh or that, and of course, you you know it it impacts all the countries of the world for one country or any country to begin to act uh without reference to everyone else. You know, that that's not healthy. So I I do think that's uh a current a current problem.

Brian Stiller 37:57

Todd, historically, missions has tended to be from Europe and North America to the rest of the world. We use the phrase from the west to the rest. But that's turning around so that in in a city where I live, where you have Nigerian, Korean, Ghanian uh churches, and people are coming from that part of the world to do evangelism in this part of the world. So the thing has changed.

Todd Johnson 38:25

Y es. Uh yeah, and that's that's a healthy thing. It's a healthy thing to see uh that change. And and I think I think that's what is is maybe difficult for people uh from the West, from the global north, from Europe and North America, uh Australia, New Zealand. Um it's it's it's tough uh to readjust to that. And uh I'll I'll tell you a little uh anecdote uh that happened to me in Wittenberg, Germany. I was presenting, this is the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. I was presenting a really nice map showing that in 2017, 40% of all Protestants were Africans. And there was about 100 people at this at this conference, and there's about six Africans there, I think. And uh after a couple of days, somebody from the front uh said to the group, um, we want Africans to know that you're welcome at the table here. And uh I had a Ghanaian who I think you know quite well, Ghanaian uh colleague sitting right next to me, and he leaned over to me and he said, You know, we have a proverb in Ghana, it's good for you to invite me to the table, but it's better if you invite me into the kitchen. And I thought, okay, I thought that's really the problem. We're at we we're a we are a we are global, we're we're so diverse, we're wonderfully from all over the place, and we still act like we're a European group of Europeans. That that to me is the is the biggest change. And and and uh so I feel like you know we we need to change. We need everybody in the kitchen, and I think it's happening, actually. I'm I'm I'm positive about about it, although it is difficult to break these old habits, you know, and and uh so so for me, um, you know, the presence of Christians from all over the world in all different countries is is is gonna help us to break free of that. And and then mission, of course, is is uh radically changed uh by that. But but I am afraid too that uh you know that sort of anti-immigrant sentiment that we see in the Western world, but we see it it's it's uh all over the world in many ways, uh, is is is uh is is preventing us uh from from that full experience. I mean, I lost seven students, uh doctor of ministry students, that were supposed to be with me these last two weeks in Boston because they could not get visas to the United States. They were banned, Christians banned from the United States to study for two weeks, you know, on a global Christianity program. So I'm uh that that's that concerns me, and and I think um, you know, going back to migration, it's uh it's really one of the main ways that we can encounter Christians from around the world, but also non-Christians. And so uh a religiously diverse and a uh diverse Christian experience are so healthy for any all of us. You know, like like where you live and where I live, uh we we have lots of opportunities. You know, uh it it's uh it's very exciting to be with Christians from around the world. And it's very exciting to you in my case, I have I have Muslim colleagues, I have Jewish colleagues, I have Hindu colleagues. Uh it's a great, it's a great way to live a Christian life to be surrounded by people uh from so many different backgrounds and places.

Brian Stiller 42:29

Todd, in the decades that you've been doing research, are there any trends that have surprised you?

What Pastors Can Change Now

Todd Johnson 42:36

I think a big surprise is the role of women in global Christianity. Um and and uh my younger uh colleague, uh Dr. Gina Zurlo has done really good work on this. And one thing that to that that surprised us, let's say, was that uh when we did the uh World Christian Encyclopedia third edition, right before the pandemic, uh we had a um a young uh research assistant who was helping us to find uh pictures, photographs from around the world, royalty-free photographs that showed Christians doing things. That was our instruction to her. Um, she was actually helping with uh uh refugee outreach in Greece at the time. This was uh uh several years ago, but they gave the her agency gave us like 10 hours a week of her time that she could continue what she'd started with us. And she amassed a huge number of photos from all over the world asking for Christians doing things, you know, like activity, not just you know, pictures of people standing around, you know. So um we got all these pictures, we and we were so excited to have them in our in our encyclopedia, and it just It didn't take long to realize that almost all of the photos were of women. And that's the opposite of what happens when you say, you know, can you send us headshots of your main leaders? You know, because we had we had done that in the past too. And then and then it's almost all men, you know, headshots of men. And I was just thinking of um, I don't think Dr. Zurlo was surprised, but uh we were we were so happy to see that women were better represented in our work simply by asking for for uh photos of people doing Christian things, you know, around the world. So we we I think we felt uh that we really want to take that seriously and find out ways that we can we can better uh serve the global Christian community of of women uh uh who are active and tend to be more active uh than men in the first place. But um you might you might know that uh uh Dana Robert, who's just down the street from me here, 20 years ago she wrote an article called uh Christianity as a women's movement, which was a recognition of this. And actually, Dr. Zurlo studied under Dr. Robert, and uh we're celebrating this year at the at a Missiological Society, we're celebrating that article um of the importance of women in the in the global Christian movement. So so uh surprise that that it was photos that uh gave us such clear evidence of that. But we were grateful for that. And it's something you'll see when you look at our our encyclopedia that that is as the is the case.

Brian Stiller 45:48

Todd, you and I are in North America, but what can we learn from the global south and the growth of the of the church in those parts of the world?

Todd Johnson 45:57

Well, I I think um I think there's uh almost no area of our experience uh that uh that is is uh uh not uh impacted uh uh by by uh the presence of Christians from around the world in in our lives, you know, as we travel or even when we don't travel. And um I just feel like uh what it is that we can learn is is how different cultures prioritize and emphasize different things that are that are in the scriptures, that are in our experience. And um, and it's always eye-opening. It's not that our own experience is bad or our own culture's bad. It's just that ways that we can be more faithful simply by paying attention to what other people uh are experiencing. And and their way is not the only right way or anything like that. It's it's really just just seeing the beauty of how our faith uh is experienced differently through different cultural lenses. Um and to me that well, that's been my experience uh as a Christian, uh, you know, and I'm so grateful that I've been able to spend time uh with other Christians, you know, both in their homelands and and then here with with uh you know, like our seminary. You know, I was just talking to a Chinese Christian just an hour ago, and we were going back and forth, you know, looking at uh uh spiritual formation and uh studying together uh you know the history of Christianity, and there's nothing more more fulfilling uh than that. And that's why it probably is just good, again, to not think you're the best, you're the greatest, but to think there's a lot I can learn and take a more humble uh position to the rest of the world. And um, there's just so much to learn uh from other cultures. So um I I really really great grateful for it and enjoy it every single day.

Brian Stiller 48:13

And Todd, that leads me into this this question for pastors and church leaders. Uh how might they equip themselves to better understand the world? And what are they generally missing as they relate the church around the world to their people? What might they what might they say that help helps our congregations better understand what the spirit is doing uh globally?

Todd Johnson 48:44

Yeah, I think I think that's actually quite important. Um I don't think it should just be missionaries or you know, mission-educated people who know what's going on. Uh I act I honestly think that who we are now and where we're headed in the future, you know, as a as a large majority being from Africa, Asia, and so on, um, that that should play itself out in our experience on Sunday, um, no matter where we are. And one area that that I would like to see more done is just music. You know, uh there's there's ethnodoxology, which is the study of Christian worship around the world. And uh I think if you're if you're gonna have an Easter service in 2026, you should consider hymns written by Chinese people or or Nigerians or Brazilians, or we we should be impacted at the level of worship, I think. Uh, and we have beautiful music from Europe, let's say, or from contemporary groups in in Australia or wherever, but that's a global thing now. We we should actually gain from um that. It shouldn't be a one-way direction where you know where most of the music comes from the you know the the global north and finds its way to the global south, even translated into other languages. Um we it should the it should move in the opposite direction so that we ourselves are singing, you know, which is a fundamental um act of Christian faith, to sing with the entire body of Christ. There ought to be ways in which to do that. Um, and and then of course it it goes beyond that to then think of ways in which you know stories that we tell uh in our sermons um would uh be taken from around the world. So we have to be listening. Um and and I know we did that a lot. Uh I grew up in a Lutheran church in Minneapolis, but I heard a lot about the persecuted church when I was growing up. Uh and in fact, I went and tried to learn Russian as a as a 12-year-old, 13-year-old, you know, because I heard so much about the Soviet Union, and I visited there uh before the collapse, even. So so that that's the kind of impact that you want. I want to be hearing about what's going on, good and bad, around the world. How can we be a part of it? Prayer as well would be an area that that we can uh see transformation of our own lives.

Brian Stiller 51:37

Todd, you mentioned a text and a revelation, Revelation 7.9. What does that mean to the world Christian community and our sense of mission and where it began?

Todd Johnson 51:52

Yes, of course, uh Revelation 7.9 is uh is a vision of um you know all the peoples of the world uh at the throne of God, uh worshiping. And uh that's really uh not an unusual thing, of course, in the scripture, because you know, even in the book of Genesis, we're introduced to this idea of uh a faith for all peoples, a blessing for all peoples, and so on. Um and so that vision uh is is uh one that um is really central to who we are. And and of course it's central to our mission, but it's it's central to our character. We're we are a faith uh for all peoples, as Christians in in general. And evangelicals have played an important part of sort of the mission part of that, of going into new places. In fact, uh we're celebrating uh this year the 50th uh anniversary of the founding of the U.S. Center for World Mission in Pasadena, and that was uh founded by my father-in-law and mother-in-law, Ralph and Roberta Winter. Uh, and and they basically thought, you know, it's it's it's so important uh to highlight uh those peoples that don't haven't experienced this blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so, you know, they spent uh the the rest of their lives from from that time uh in 1976 just to highlight the groups that have have had uh no um gospel access. And I think that's something that has continued to this day. There are still several thousand groups that that need to hear for the very first time. And I think that will be an important part of who we are going into the future. But we're also in a period where where so many people have come to faith from so many different cultures and languages that we need to work harder on representing uh ourselves uh as a global faith. And uh I think the two are related. I think people who've never heard the gospel are going to be much more interested in joining a faith that celebrates all peoples, including them, um, and and and uh gives good evidence for it and and offers justice to all peoples as well. So for me, um you know, going to all the peoples of the world uh is is really a continuation of demonstrating to the world who we really are.

Brian Stiller 54:40

Todd Johnson, thanks so much for joining us in Evangelical 360.

Todd Johnson 54:45

Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be with you.

Brian Stiller 54:48

Thanks, Todd, for joining me today. Your research is without peer. What you've done is extraordinary service to us all, helping us understand the place of our faith of plays in the world. And to my friends who have listened today, thank you for being part of the podcast. Be sure to share this episode and join the conversation on YouTube. If you'd like to learn more about today's guest, check the show notes for links and info. If you haven't already received my free ebook and newsletter, please go to Brianstiller.com. Thanks for joining us. Until next time. Be sure to subscribe to Evangelical 360 to go.