Switching lenses

Episode 12: Posing or Documenting - Are Wedding Photos Getting Too Fake?

• Mandy Wright

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In episode 12 of Switching Lenses : We discuss the authenticity of Instagram and wedding photos, Have they have become too staged?  buzzwords like 'authentic' and 'candid' in the photography industry and rhow theyeflect on their meanings in the context of wedding photography. What's the role of social media in shaping photo trends? and the industry's pressure to make posed photos appear candid? We also talk about our new favorite camera, the Nikon ZF, and We insights from a recent workshop in Chicago.


00:00 Introduction and Episode Kickoff

00:29 Debate on Authenticity in Wedding Photography

01:23 Defining Authentic and Candid Moments

02:54 Influence vs. Authenticity in Wedding Photography

06:33 Balancing Direction and Authenticity

11:36 Challenges and Misconceptions in Wedding Photography

17:24 The Role of Social Media and Trends

27:20 Influence of Competitions and Industry Standards

29:51 Debating Wedding Photography Approaches

31:17 The Great Argument: Lens and Light

32:42 Posing and Authenticity in Wedding Photos

37:23 Tech Time: Nikon ZF Review

45:17 Exploring Chicago: Workshop Highlights

48:05 Future Workshop Destinations

49:04 Conclusion and Farewell



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Esteban:

Hello and welcome to another episode of

Mandy:

Switching Lenses,

Esteban:

episode number 12. Yes. I thought we were on like 24

Mandy:

already. Feels like it.

Esteban:

Oh God, really? We really have to stop

Mandy:

complaining of you are not selling this

Esteban:

podcast. I am definitely selling this podcast and I'm really excited to be here because we have another. Really cool topic to mm-hmm. To talk about. Mm-hmm. We do. What are we talking about?

Mandy:

So, um, we're talking about posing or directing, and if Instagram photos and wedding photos on Instagram are getting too fake, what do you think?

Esteban:

Uh, abso fucking is my answer. Really? A hundred percent.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

I hate it. I hate everything about it. I hate how fake everything is. Mm-hmm. I hate. How, I mean, we'll, we will get into it, but Yes, yes. So you do. I think that it's

Mandy:

So we'll dive into why, I guess, but you, yeah.

Esteban:

Yeah. I 100% think that everyone is overusing authentic.

Mandy:

Yeah, everyone. Or misusing. Misusing, I think is what

Esteban:

you're, yes. Not overusing. Definitely misusing. I mean, it's a

Mandy:

buzzword for sure in the industry, but they're misusing the word authentic and the word candid.

Esteban:

Yes. Mm-hmm. I, I, I think it's, so

Mandy:

maybe we should start off by like, what does authentic, well, and maybe the definition is in terms of wedding photography is shifting a little bit. What does authentic and candid mean to you or to the wedding industry?

Esteban:

Well, my definition of it is an authentic moment is us capturing something that's just happening in front of us without any sort of interference from

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm.

Esteban:

From the people that, that are there to document rather than us interfering with something happening. Mm-hmm. So that's an authentic moment. Um. Mm-hmm. I don't know what other definition there would be with fighting photographers. I mean, I feel like,

Mandy:

well, I mean, I guess I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. Mm-hmm. But the moment, whether we influence it or not, is still technically happening. It's still on a, it's still an authentic moment. Whether, I guess you could say whether there's influence or not, it's still happening. It's still a moment. It's different than if you did it. It's not

Esteban:

authentic. I don't think it's an authentic moment. If I'm a photographer and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna make them feel like they're, they're, they just met and I don't know, the groom's gonna pick up the bride and just tore. Well, I think like those now,

Mandy:

I think we're, well, I would say now we're getting into more of the candid debate and not necessarily authentic moment debate. So let's start. Let's, let's try and break it down even further. So let's say we're documenting the first look with a bride and her father.

Esteban:

Okay, so I see where you're going.

Mandy:

So this is, are we, and we place him. We don't just stand back and say, well go see each other. We maybe influence the situation a little. It would look really nice if you walked through this arch doorway and you tapped your father on the shoulder and he turned around. And we'll let it unfold from there. We would like, the lighting is really nice on your father here. It will look very grand with you walking towards him through this arch. Let's set it up like this. We are influencing an authentic moment here, so we put our influence on it and then we step back and we document it now.

Esteban:

No,

Mandy:

is that, is it still authentic?

Esteban:

Yeah. I don't think that that. I don't know. I guess not. I guess we're showing, we're kind of giving them direction. Mm-hmm. Which obviously is also something that we have to do, but at the same time, it's like the authenticity doesn't come from like, walking through an arch. The authenticity comes from just allowing them to have the moment and capturing their reactions. Um, to me it's, that's more authentic than like. Okay. Like,

Mandy:

so you're saying that is still an authentic moment? Yeah. Okay. So let's pose another situation. The bride is getting her makeup done and her hair done. It's not in a nice area. They're not, they're doing it really fast. You don't wanna get in their way. So towards the end of the makeup, you say, can I just move you over here by the window light real quick? Is that okay? They say yes, you move them and they're still like, you're getting in their way. They're in your way. So then you say, Hey. Can you just like do a couple mock makeup brush swipes? Can you just hold the curling iron like this for a second so I can get a few shots here? Is that authentic? That's not

Esteban:

authentic at all? Yeah, I don't think that's authentic at all. And I do that and, uh, I don't think that's really where I'm, so, I, I mean, when I talk, when, like we talk about like Instagram and social media, I don't think those shots are really what I'm. What I'm referring to or what I, what, what's in my brain when I think of those moments? Well, I mean, we can all

Mandy:

probably imagine that same, that same influence and control in other moments of the day, but that's just an example of us stepping in to get the shot that we want. So in one situation. We're maybe putting all the control at the beginning and then letting things unfold before us. So we're controlling the lighting in the situation, and then the next situation, we're not getting the shot we want, so we then directing further. Yeah, I can see what

Esteban:

you mean.

Mandy:

But that can be applied. Any point of the day. So it's technically the

Esteban:

same concept of like the first look like you're still saying like, let's move here into this good light, into this, and then have the first look. I guess that makes sense. I guess it doesn't, it makes the entire thing not authentic because at the end of the day, would've that happened

Mandy:

without your influence? Would that have moment happened? Would would've that have happened?

Esteban:

Yeah, that's, I don't, I, that's a really good point that you're making there because I, uh. Again, I'm just automatically going to like the, the posing and the directing Yeah. Portion of the day, like the portraits where it's like, let's create this thing to make things look authentic. And that's where I, I have a big issue with it where, where it's like, I'm gonna post these authentic real moments when in reality it was just me directing, directing them to look authentic. And they're not really candid or real.

Mandy:

Yeah. So it's interesting too because I feel like I always break the wedding day into two different like kind of categories in my mind. And one is the point where I am, I'm allowing myself to give some direction to get better composition and lighting and photos, but I want, so I want some control. So the photos will look aesthetically pleasing and are beautiful, but that the moments can hopefully unfold naturally. And then there's the other portion of the day where I feel comfortable being like. I'm just, you want your photos to look this way. This is what it will take for us to get to that point. Yeah. And we are gonna fake it and we're gonna act because almost nobody acts like this naturally. I can almost guarantee you that if these are the images you want, that you are not gonna do that on your own. You're gonna need someone to coach you. And during that portion, I feel like I am okay going all in and being like. I'm gonna tell you exactly how to act.

Esteban:

Yeah. And I think there's, um, uh, there's definitely a balance. Um, but again, I keep going back to this whole, like, I, I guess the way that, that I was thinking of it was the, just the idea that, that in the social media world mm-hmm. Where we're pressured to because we have those buzzwords of authentic and candid and. Unposed. Mm-hmm. Like those are all things that are buzzwords and. Um,

Mandy:

I would say those are all used wrong. Like

Esteban:

Yeah. Yeah. Like unposed

Mandy:

is not unposed.

Esteban:

Yeah. Like, it's not, it's candidate is not candid and it's, and the way that the industry's going is that it's, it's almost like the pressure is on us to cre create these moments to look that way instead of just allowing them to happen. And I think that when you're in a wedding and you're doing portraits and you, you probably, there's not really, unless you're like full on documentary where like. You just don't talk to anybody. Mm-hmm. You just have a camera up to your eye the entire day.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Esteban:

You're gonna have to have some sort of direction to your couples,

Mandy:

or they won't have, there's certain things they just won't have in their gallery, which, yeah, like

Esteban:

family portraits. Yeah. Like portraits of the two of them

Mandy:

smiling at the camera. Yeah. Traditional, classic portraits. Yeah.

Esteban:

And there are people that do this. There are people that photograph weddings in this way. Um, I, I very much look up to a few of them and, and I love that approach and I love that. I wish I could do that, but I, you need the right

Mandy:

couple to do that. That's willing to, I guess, surrender a bunch of traditional. A traditional photography techniques and, and portraits to have an exchange

Esteban:

for an actual,

Mandy:

for an exchange, for just documentary.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

Which is beautiful. But you, you can't, you can't really have both. I mean, you can have moments of both, I guess. You can have moments of both throughout the day, but it's very hard to, it's very hard to like to separate yourself from one to the other. I think as the day goes on, there's gonna be overlap of. This would look nicer if I just told them to move over here or, you know. Yeah.

Esteban:

Which is kinda the approach that we take. Mm-hmm. We do a little bit of a, of both. I think we lean more towards the documentary style where we're kind of not, not trying to jump in at all or like direct too much. Yeah. Um, but I think, I think there's definitely a little bit of, of both. Mm-hmm. Um, but I kind of wish that I, I. That just document. Yeah. I mean, I, I've done one wedding where I kind of was just more of a fly on the wall. I was a third shooter. Mm-hmm. The one that I shot in just only black, white, a

Mandy:

photographer was still in control and directing. They were stilling. I was

Esteban:

kind of doing that, but, um, but yeah, no, I, I would, I think it would be cool to do that, but yeah. Now you're kind of changing my mind because now I went into this thinking like, no, I'm, I, I hate this, but in reality, I'm kind of part of the problem. Right. Because, well, I mean, it don't, there is some direction during the day.

Mandy:

Oh, but, but is it a problem? Because I don't agree with that. I don't think it's a problem. I don't think, I don't think the wedding solely needs to be, um, documented without influence. I think that as photographers offer more than that, and I think that there can be a place for being a fly on the wall and a place for taking charge and getting the beautiful portraits that people wanna frame. Um. I, so, yeah, I don't think it's a problem. That part of it. I don't think

Esteban:

it is a problem. I dunno why. Well, it's a, well,

Mandy:

I think, yeah, I don't know. I, I know why, because you wanna be to fly on the wall. I do.

Speaker 4:

Yeah,

Mandy:

you do. And I would say you do take more of a documentary approach than I naturally do, um, when I'm working with you. Um, there's times where I do reserve myself or

Esteban:

like, I wish I could do this. And, um, not

Mandy:

I wish just because I think that if I did you, I just know. I'm like, nah, I think he would rather just,

Esteban:

I do the side eye.

Mandy:

Yeah. I mean, I would ignore you, but that I didn't see you. But this, this all brings back, um, one of the first times I ever experienced. Um, a couple misusing the word candid. Um, and it was a small, intimate wedding. Maybe it was like my fourth or fifth year shooting weddings. Um, intimate wedding couple was not very affectionate towards each other. They weren't like I had, I kind of knew them outside of. Uh, them hiring me for the wedding and I kind of knew what they were like as a couple and they told me that they didn't want, they wanted just candid photos. They wanted just me to document. They didn't like any, like, they were very clear that they didn't want direction. And I was kinda like, okay, but my work does not, my work does not speak to that at all. But I'm like, okay, I'm willing to do that, but can you just show me? I wanna see a Pinterest board. I wanna see inspiration. Show me what you want your wedding to look and feel like.'cause I was a little bit hesitant. Then I get the gallery and it's full of, there's a bunch of like post candid looking. They weren't po, they weren't posed per se, but they were ca you could tell that they were candid looking photos. They were not candid moments. And you can tell that because it's just not stuff people are naturally, most couples are not naturally gonna do. Like, are you gonna randomly pick me up and spin me around? Yeah, probably not. You might hug me. There might be nice, cute, intimate moments, but there's certain things that do not happen. Usually, unless you're prompted to do it. And so she sends me this gallery and I'm like, okay, so you want it to look candid. And at this point, they had no timeline in for photos. There was no, there was no moments for me to direct them. It was like right from like, um, ceremony, cocktail hour they wanted to be at and reception. There was absolutely no time for the two of them to be together to get any photos of just the two of them, which I could tell from their galleries what they wanted. And so then I was like. Uh, you are gonna have to set aside some time, and I don't have to direct you or pose you in really stiff things, but I think if you want what you're showing me, you're gonna have to set apart some time for us to do this, or you're gonna have to walk around your cocktail hour, hand in hand in acting like this, which I know is not them.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Mandy:

And at the end of the day, they ended up giving you like 20 minutes and we could get kind of like the feel that they wanted, but I was just like, this. These, what you are telling me is not lining up with what you're seeing online. And that I think is where the, where the problem lies is where people think they want something and that's actually not what it is.

Esteban:

So just a misuse of the term, candid and, uh.

Mandy:

Authentic, authentic and real, and that I want the vibes to be like this when that's not reality.

Esteban:

Yeah. And like in my experience, and that's a problem in my mind, I guess,

Mandy:

is

Esteban:

yeah, that I think that's what it is, is that it is a misuse of the term. And I think that a lot of the time, like you've probably run into this too, where it's like you'll have a call with someone or a meeting with someone and they're like, yeah, we love just these real candid moments. And then they go out and send you like a shot list of like. 300 portraits and like a Pinterest board and like all this stuff. And it's like, no, that's not, like, this does require work and I don't mind doing it, but I think there's definitely a misuse. Mm-hmm. And maybe misunderstanding, understanding of what, what the definition of authentic is or what mm-hmm. What a journalistic approach is, or, uh, what a candid moment is. Mm-hmm. Um. I mean, I like to think, especially like during our workshops, I like to think that we, we preach the whole, like, you still have to be real. Like don't jump in and interrupt moments. Like,

Mandy:

yes.

Esteban:

But, but if it comes down to it, then obviously if it's gonna affect something that's gonna affect the entire timeline, then yeah, you can jump in and kind of help it. But, but always be of the approach that, Hey, you know what, I'm just here to document. I'm just here to step back and let things happen naturally. Mm-hmm. And I'm not trying to, to photograph. In a way that's that I'm always trying to guide my couples in a way that is going to be helpful to me and my portfolio. So I'm just kinda letting them. Mm-hmm. Unless I feel like I have to step in. Right?

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. So do you feel like. Your Instagram and your website and everything is full of beautifully composed images, beautiful lighting. Do you ever worry when you're taking like the fly on the wall approach that you're not gonna be able to get that same like look and feeling quality of images if you're not stepping in and directing more or kind of influencing the moments?

Esteban:

Um, no. I think. I, I don't, I don't think so. I mean, I think that, that when you look at, like if you were to go through my Instagram, I like to make it a point that when I do post an image that there's a mixture of everything, and that's sort of like the approach of what, what we do. If you look at maybe the actual feed

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm. You

Esteban:

might see more like portrait stuff at the beginning, but it's nice to be able to show the entire approach of the day. It's like

Mandy:

when you go through like the carousel or something. Okay. When you go to a carousel, so not just the, you have

Esteban:

10 photos, then you wanna show that you have. The portrait and then you scroll and then you see some candid moments and you see some reception lighting. It's not just, and that's sort of like what we preach. It's like, don't just get stuck with just the, the, the portfolio image and that's it. Like you wanna make sure mm-hmm. That you show your couples that you're able to capture a balance of those fly on the wall moments mm-hmm. And still be able to create. The portrait and more, more of the like the, the beautiful lighting, controlled lighting and all that stuff, if that's what they want. Yeah. Um, but if it was up to me, it would, my Instagram would be full of just all just candid stuff.

Mandy:

Yeah. Fun fact. What it is up to you,

Esteban:

uh, to some extent,

Mandy:

um, I mean, you show what you wanna shoot, right?

Esteban:

Yeah. But I think that. That the industry and the trends and Instagram and social media do sort of dictate what my couples want. Um, and I think that gets trickled down to the expectations.

Mandy:

It's, it's the chicken of the egg, right? Yeah. What do you mean? What's your couples want? Won't couples who want fly in the wall documentary find you if that's what you're posting?

Esteban:

Yeah. And I think they, they do, but I think it's mostly couples that want both. Hmm. Um. I think it would be very difficult to find a couple that strictly just wants me to just document without any, like, family portraits or without any, um, any posed or, or, uh, or any portraits of the two of them looking at the camera like we just said. Um, I think those are, those are tough to find, especially nowadays, that when somebody's finding you through social media, the expectation is that they're going through social media. So when you go through social media. You're sucked into like this, this aesthetic and like this approach. Hmm. And I feel like it's pretty difficult to, to get away from that when you're, I dunno, when you're a bride or a groom and you're kind of scrolling, you find somebody and you're like, oh, I, I, I want this approach. Does that make any sense? Yeah.

Mandy:

Kind of a little bit. I don't know. I'm still, I'm still questioning.

Esteban:

Do you think that there's actually, so I know a few photographers. Um, I can't think of their names now, but I know a few photographers that, that do take that very like, uh, actually one of'em is Kevin Mullins, I think his name's Kevin Mullins. He's from like England or something. I, when I was a full on Fuji shooter, he used to lot of his work. He shoots in black and white. He just like, strictly just like document, like he doesn't

Mandy:

talk to the couple.

Esteban:

Yeah. Like he's basically like, I pretty sure he doesn't shoot like portraits or like anything of that stuff. He's just documenting and I love that. But do you realistically think that you'd be able to make a business in, in our area where we are out of just that?

Mandy:

No, I don't. Okay. But I, but I guess I'm, I guess I'm just pushing you and challenging you a little bit. If you, if that really appeals to you, I think that you post very minimal amount of those kind of moments throughout the day. So if you were to. Post more of that, that maybe you would attract a client who maybe thinks more similarly to you where they're like, I really want the fly on the wall documentary photographer, but my mother will needs to have family photos. Yeah. So if they can just switch on that side of them for the family photos, you know, there's gotta be couples out there in this market who, who really don't want anyone influencing the other portion of the day.

Esteban:

So, you know, it's funny you mentioned that because now that, as you're saying this, I'm thinking that. To me, while the photo journalistic approach and that that fly on the wall approach mm-hmm. Is really important to me. Composition speaks more to me as a photographer. Mm-hmm. As an artist. Okay.

Mandy:

Yeah, and I

Esteban:

think that's sort of what I try to, to post a little bit more of. Um. Because I like to tell a story through composition, through a background, through depth. Yeah. Um, through how layering and things work.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Um, even if there is some, a little bit of influence and that sparks more joy in me.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm. Rather

Esteban:

than just being a fly on the wall and document than things. Yeah. That's fun. And I love doing that. So in a perfect world, I feel like I would want that rather than Yeah.

Mandy:

Well, I will say that you are very good at. You are very good at letting a moment happen and then just only taking things that you can control within yourself to make it look like a beautiful image. And I mean, like switching the camera, the lens that you're using, moving your position, yeah. To them. Um, or framing something differently. You're using a different composition to get a very unique, beautiful storytelling image where. Maybe I'm like standing back and looking and I'm like, the light is terrible right now. They need to just turn this way and this would be really nice shot and you're really good at just like, I'm not gonna interrupt them, I'm just gonna do what I can do. To get something cool. And then I see something that you've taken a shot of and I'm like, what the fuck? How did he, well, thank you. How did he just see that? Like how did you see that you should frame them this way or compose this way? Uh, something happening on its own. So I will say that you were. Very strong at that.

Esteban:

Thanks. Are there any more compliments? I'm really loving this episode.

Mandy:

One full hour of compliments for you. Oh my God.

Esteban:

I'm gonna, you're gonna sit me down in compli. Are you crying? No. No, I don't think so. Am I?

Mandy:

It looks like you might have got a little teary eyed. Really?

Esteban:

Oh, am I crying? It's really emotional. No. Um.

Mandy:

Am I, your eyes are watering.

Esteban:

It's okay. It's,

Mandy:

this is the first time I've ever complimented your work. I'm just kidding.

Esteban:

Um, but no, but it's really nice to hear because I do tend to. I don't know. I feel like, I think composition first and I just kinda let things flow into the composition.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Esteban:

Um, but it's also a strength of like how we work together, where you take your own approach, where you have your strengths and maybe if you, if you can direct in a way that's gonna work compositionally or for the storytelling, and obviously that'll work really well, but I think. I dunno. I feel like having a balance of both things is definitely,

Speaker 3:

mm-hmm. Is definitely

Esteban:

pretty, pretty cool and very important as a artist because like I said, I love the composition aspect of things. Um, while at the same time making sure that you understand that, hey, we also need to get like, photos for the client that they might want, so

Mandy:

mm-hmm. Those, yeah. So do you think that like, this is. The social media and wanting these, like authentic feeling, being careful with these words now and candid feeling images like this, nostalgia, this vibe, this, this whole like the vibes, you know? You know, but you know what I mean though. Yeah. Like this, this, do you think it's, it's helping with what we're trying to achieve as like just us as wedding photographers, like me and you are approached. Do you think that having those images are helping or hurting? Because in, in one aspect, it's stepping away from the posed smile at the camera. Stiff moments.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. But on the

Mandy:

other side, we know that the same direction that went into creating the post stiff smile at the camera photo is actually going in, going into this to the authentic, uh, candid feeling.

Esteban:

Fake photos.

Mandy:

Yeah. So we kind of know that the approach is actually kind of the same. Yeah. But one of them is kind of more in line with, I think what we're, what me and you are trying to achieve as wedding photographers. Yeah. So I

Esteban:

mean, if you were to ask me like, would you rather take a photo of a couple looking at the camera. With really good competition or would you rather take the same exact competition com composition of the couple running across Yeah. Telling

Mandy:

them laugh at each other. Yeah. And run towards the camera.

Esteban:

Because I think that's one of the things that we also are good at, is that, is being able to bring out emotion through direction. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I would much rather have that than very static posing. And one of the things that we talk about, especially when we are at workshops or at conferences, is that. A lot of the time people will have like this beautiful lighting and like beautiful composition, but you look at the couple and it's like, yeah. And it's just, and they're like separated and like there's no, there's no actual connection between couple. Yeah. And the easiest thing to fix that, the easiest way to fix that, it's to create movement with the couple. Mm-hmm. If you, if you're not like sure how to

Speaker 3:

mm-hmm. Manipulate them. Yeah.

Esteban:

You're just. Tell'em to do something. Yeah. Or tell'em to go from point A to point B. And that generally fixes everything because they're more at ease. They're not stiff. Mm-hmm. They're moving, they're interacting with each other. Um, so yes, I would 100% rather do that than like Yeah. Doing the static posing.

Mandy:

So you're, you think, do you think it's helping the approach that we are taking as wedding photographers? Yeah,

Esteban:

I think.

Mandy:

I that, that, that I feel

Esteban:

like 10 minutes ago I would've said no. And now, like I've slowly convinced you. Yeah. I mean, I'm

Mandy:

not even trying to convince you. I'm generally just curious how you feel.

Esteban:

I, I think it does because, because I do agree too. It does lean towards the style that we like. Mm-hmm. And it does lean towards the more storytelling of what we do. Mm-hmm. Rather than trying to find a balance between static and direction mm-hmm. And posing instead, you're, you're going, all right, well, there's movement. There's motion, there's emotion, which leads to a, a really nice blend into the more storytelling and the photojournalistic approach of what we do. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm convinced.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Nice job. You convinced me. Yeah.

Mandy:

Like accidentally. Do you

Esteban:

think it's hurting or No,

Mandy:

I think it's helping. Yeah. I mean, I love it.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

I love it. I don't, I I hate that we misuse the language. Yeah. Because I, we, I know what goes into creating a lot of this stuff and. Um, but I love that, that as a whole, right now, the trend is the, the relaxed, the easy the, the, the candid, the, the, the, the little snippets of moments and the imperfection Yeah. Of a lot of the way photography is going. Um, I, I love that. So. Yeah, I, so I'm okay with it. I, I just, I don't like the idea that we're selling it as something it might not be.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Mandy:

Or are we even selling it? Or is it just sort of the misconception of the non photographer that I don't know.

Esteban:

Yeah. No, I, I like it too. I do think it, it's helping. Um, I mean now you, you go, you got into like the whole like fearless stuff. Like now you're dealing with like. All right. Are, so now we're, we're blaming social media and Instagram, but like now we have these competitions that, that you, you, you're winning this competition for like these candid, authentic moments that are happening when in reality a lot of them are not.

Mandy:

No.

Esteban:

Um,

Mandy:

very staged

Esteban:

and

Mandy:

yeah.

Esteban:

That's where, where the whole photo journalistic. Mm-hmm. And some of'em are, some people create some incredible work in these competitions. But a lot of them, they're very much those stage canid, which is what our friend Jeff says. Is that what he calls'em? Yeah,

Mandy:

I think he, yeah. Yeah.

Esteban:

Do you remember when I almost got into a fist fight with him? That lens and light? Yeah.

Mandy:

I definitely remember. So

Esteban:

Jeff, if you're watching this, I will challenge you.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. Over

Esteban:

this.

Mandy:

Yeah. We gotta have a conversation with Jeff about this again. Yeah. So Jeff, so Jeff and Jeff also says that. He in the way he directs and coaches the client, he's giving them permission to be Yeah. Authentic, which I do agree with. Like in some cases, like sometimes they need the encouragement and the coaching to, to act how they would wanna act. Yeah. Like if you're gonna cry, like let the, I don't know exactly how he coaches them, but, but he does say like he's giving them permission. And I do think that sometimes as. The, the client, they're not totally comfortable in front of the camera. They don't really know what to do. They don't know if they might be holding back. Yeah. Um, so it's sometimes it is necessary. It's definitely

Esteban:

a, an interesting approach. I do definitely appreciate it because some of the work, I mean, obviously. He's not just one of our really good friends, he's also like one of our favorite photographers. Yeah. And just people in general. Um, and I love when he says that he gives them permission to be themselves, um, whether that's through a, a prompt mm-hmm. Or whether that's just asking them a simple question while you're photographing them. I know that one of the, uh mm-hmm. Things that he does is like, uh, I think one of the photos that he shows during his workshop is a group of like prizes or something, and it's, I think he asked him like, does anybody want to. Toast to the bride or something. Yeah.

Mandy:

Can you, yeah. Like,

Esteban:

or what's your favorite memory of like the bride? Just something like that. Yeah, like a prompt.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Where it would actually engage them in a way that mm-hmm. Maybe sparks a memory, which may, might be emotional and mm-hmm. And might allow the bride to be like, oh, oh, this is great and maybe there's some tears or something. So,

Mandy:

and if I remember correctly, you didn't really love this right?

Esteban:

Uh, I, I mean, I, I personally wouldn't take that approach. No, but I definitely appreciate that, that Okay, so you don't see anything wrong with

Mandy:

it? No, no, no, no, no,

Esteban:

no. I think, I think, I mean, I, I wouldn't do that. No. Um, well, I wouldn't say I wouldn't do that, but I think that, I think if there was a situation where I'm in a, in a wedding and maybe the bride just seems uncomfortable and. And maybe

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm.

Esteban:

I feel I'm kind of vibing like that, that maybe I, I need to step in instead of just me being like, Hey, why you look so stiff? Loosen up a little bit. It's your wedding day. Yeah. Like, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. That's

Esteban:

weird.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Esteban:

So I would probably do something like that. Mm-hmm. Where it'd be like, all right, well, does anybody want to, like, maybe what's, yeah. Give mom a hug or something.

Mandy:

And I don't necessarily think that makes, that, makes it, um. Yeah. Not authentic, inauthentic. I was trying to think of what the Yeah. Um, because I mean yes. That the bridesmaids are not gonna naturally just start telling stories. Yeah. Brides or whatever. I'd

Esteban:

like to make a toast and tell a story about the brides.

Mandy:

Rarely that's gonna happen. Someone needs to initiate it.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

And, and if we're seeing the opportunity, like everyone else is busy in the moment doing all their stuff. Like the, you are the one who could initiate it.

Esteban:

Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. So Jeff, uh, I stole. Don't like you

Mandy:

and I'll

Esteban:

fight you. We had a big argument during Lens and Light last year. Yeah,

Mandy:

yeah. I think it was last year. It was last year. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, you guys were getting heated

Esteban:

and somebody had to like,

Mandy:

yeah,

Esteban:

these are good friends. So we would never actually, I believe

Mandy:

they were like something really important's happening over here in the main room. Everyone comes to town like, no, especially you two photo

Esteban:

journalistic approach. And Jeff was like, no,

Mandy:

I believe you guys were actually arguing about. What is the photographic or the journalistic approach? Sorry. Yeah. What is the journalistic approach like?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mandy:

Because you do have totally separate approaches, but that's, that's a whole other conversation maybe.

Esteban:

Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, I think it's a good topic. I think. I think the beauty of this is. There's enough people getting married, um, and there's enough

Mandy:

mm-hmm.

Esteban:

Photographers that can take different approaches to get to

Mandy:

Oh, that is where they want such a crowd pleasing answer. Say something more controversial. But it's true.

Esteban:

It's true. Like I, I, I mean, even like, if you look at. You, Jeff, and I, we all take different approaches. Mm-hmm. We do, and we, we, each of us has good businesses. We each

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm.

Esteban:

Book weddings. Our clients are happy. Like, these are all things that, you know, if you don't have a certain style, then it doesn't mean that people aren't gonna hire you. I think that Jeff. It's very much somebody that sticks to his own style and his own approach. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:

And

Esteban:

people love him for that. And we do the same thing. Mm-hmm. Um, I think we're a little bit closer Yeah. To our style, our like approach. Mm-hmm. Uh, than Jeff. Um, but, but yeah. I feel like it's

Mandy:

because I am big on posing.

Esteban:

I mean, you teach it. I

Mandy:

teach it.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

But my approach is, is very much on. Uh, what can we say to make the couple comfortable and to get them naturally interacting with each other and to like evoke laughter

Esteban:

or to give them permission to be themselves.

Mandy:

Yeah. Like, and, and that does take a lot of coaching, I would say, from me or the photographer, but my goal isn't my, my posing isn't Alright. I want you guys to laugh with each other or smile really big. I try and use other, other. Forms to get them to start acting that way on their own or to be giggling or to be playful, or if I want them to be more like sensual or intimate with each other, using other ways to try and get that out of them without, and that's without directly telling them. Please.

Esteban:

And that also goes back to your personality too, like who you are as a person, how much experience you have interacting with, uh, with people, how approachable you are during the wedding. Um. Because that plays a big part into it. Yeah. If you know how to interact with people, then it'll be easier for you to, to coach them into Absolutely. Those genuine moments. Um, I'm kind of a grumps all day, so I just sort of am like, click, click, click.

Mandy:

Slight slightly less personable, maybe

Esteban:

slightly,

Mandy:

but I also think that this is something like, this is something that you can like learn, like when I first. I am, I am miles and miles better than I was when I first started. Oh yeah. Like I, I've seen

Esteban:

your work when

Mandy:

you first

Esteban:

Yeah, that was like six months ago. Right?

Mandy:

I watched it. Um, but just even my comfort level and my. Intelligence in, in, in directing and reading and, and all of that hasn't. I've just grown so much and I really, really do believe that even if you're an introvert and you're not comfortable with this type of stuff, that you can start practicing and you can get better and better at it for the wedding day. That's

Speaker 3:

true.

Mandy:

And you just have to be. You have to be flexible and you have to be able to read your client and, and kind of form into the kind of person that they want you to be on that wedding day so that you can fit in with them and, and get something real out of them. And I don't know, something you can learn and practice and Yeah. Or not, and, and just, just keep to yourself and document. And I wouldn't say you're grumpy. You are just, I'm

Esteban:

pretty grumpy.

Mandy:

You're just, um, less interactive. Mm-hmm. With, um, with the people. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

That's, that's awesome.

Esteban:

So what was, what's the verdict?

Mandy:

Okay, so what was the initial question? Um, it was.

Esteban:

Posing.

Mandy:

Oh, our wedding photos getting too fake. Oh, I know my answer. I've got my final line.

Esteban:

All right, go for it.

Mandy:

They are the exact same amount of fake, they just look like they're not

Esteban:

Yes.

Mandy:

That's And I, and I am okay with that. I kind love that

Esteban:

they're just as fake

Mandy:

as they always were.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

Portrait, portrait speaking. Yeah. Portraits are just as fake as they always have been. Yeah.

Esteban:

It's just, what did you say?

Mandy:

They just look more natural. They just look

Esteban:

more natural.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

That's a great way to put it.

Mandy:

Hmm. Which I had no idea that's what the conclusion I was gonna come to in this conversation.

Esteban:

That's, I mean, I, because

Mandy:

I actually completely thought I was going to, I had like these ideas in my head of like, go in the exact opposite way that that, that people are posting too fake of stuff and that. Uh, we have to stick to the real moments, but I'm like, maybe it's okay that portraits are fake, but they look for natural and real. I don't know.

Esteban:

I don't even, what's your take to say What's a fun take? That was perfect. Like it was, you can't put it any better. That they're just as fake as they've always been. Yeah. Uh, it's just different. Yeah. They're not more fake. They're not less

Mandy:

fake. They just have a different feel. They're still

Esteban:

the, the directing and the mm-hmm. And that stuff. Mm-hmm. With a few exceptions of certain people, but I think overall, um, it's just

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm. It

Esteban:

just feels different because there is the intent of making it look natural. Mm-hmm. As opposed to just like. Yeah, look at the camera and smile. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I think it's just, it's all the same, a different feel. Yeah. The,

Mandy:

yeah. Yeah.

Esteban:

Hmm. Cool.

Mandy:

Alright, so let's uh, move on to the cameras. We used to photograph this. Fake disagree. Fake shit.

Speaker 4:

What?

Mandy:

Let's move on to the cameras. We used to photograph this fake stuff

Esteban:

and it's gear time. Time I'm to Yeah.

Mandy:

Trying to transition into tech time. Alright, what's our

Esteban:

tech time for this week? What are we like? So

Mandy:

this, this is the Nikon, uh, zf. I almost called it the Cannon zf. This is my first

Esteban:

digital night. Oh, digital, yeah.

Mandy:

Digital Nikon. I, yes, I did have the, I do have the F four, um, but

Esteban:

film. Mm-hmm. Um, which is also

Mandy:

a gif from you before we even. Jump into this, because I'm gonna let you take the lead on this, but before we jump into the, the specs and all the nerdy stuff with this camera mm-hmm. I would like to say to everyone out there that I got my own Nikon zf because you wanted to get a different colored body, so I inherited your old one. Yes. Like I usually do, but it's only a, a month old to you. Um, yeah. Started September. Yeah, you went right. I

Esteban:

got it. Like the week before we went to Utah.

Mandy:

Yeah. So it's about a month old. And then, um, you wanted to get a different color, so I got myself a you, so,

Esteban:

so I originally wanted the color that I have now, so I. It got announced, um, right before we went to Utah, you know, and it actually got you tell whatever story you want. No, but it's

Mandy:

true. But you still just, so

Esteban:

the camera, you bought

Mandy:

a new camera for a different color. Yes.

Esteban:

So it got released while we were in Utah.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. And

Esteban:

I wanted the silver one. I just knew that that's what I wanted. Yeah.'cause I just thought it would look nicer. Um, so I said, well, I really want to take a zf. I really want to try it out. We have the XT fifties from Fuji. Mm-hmm. Which are great cameras. I just, I'm not really vibing with it. I feel like it's mm-hmm. A little small. Yeah. We got my hands, we matching cameras. Yeah. Um, yeah. And they're great cameras. The image quality's great. The lenses are great. I really, I really enjoying they're, it

Mandy:

like, they're really fun to shoot with. The film

Esteban:

simulations are awesome. Mm-hmm. Um, the one thing, so I did own the Zef a few years ago when it first came out. I think I bought it like the day it came out. Uh, the only. The thing that I'm really loving about, like our fun cameras nowadays, is the ability to do in-camera presets.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm. And

Esteban:

now that the ZF actually has that with the newest, uh, 2.0 update.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Um.

Esteban:

I was like, all right. I love that. It's a full frame sensor. It's a 24 megapixel sensor, I think it is. You're getting

Mandy:

way into the tech stuff and you trailed off why you have a different colored camera.

Esteban:

Oh yeah. So wait, so let's go back. So I wanted to buy it Yeah. Before Utah. So

Mandy:

wait, I, let's show them the two different colors.

Esteban:

So, so I bought the black one mm-hmm. To go to Utah. Mm-hmm. Which is a beautiful camera. Um, and then this one got really while we were in Utah, and I was like, all right, well. Yeah. I'll just use this one for now. Mm-hmm. And then we went to the store Milford photo, which is the second time we mentioned them in the last couple episodes. Whoa. And they're great, and we love them. If you, uh, if you wanna buy anything, please buy that Milford photo if you're or your local camera store.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Um, we walked into Milford photo and they were having an event, and it was there, and I was like, whoa, this is a, just as beautiful as I, I like, want

Mandy:

Yeah. This is as beautiful as I thought it would be.

Esteban:

Yeah. And, uh, and I was like, all right, so I'm gonna buy this. Um,

Speaker 4:

yeah.

Esteban:

Mandy, would you like the black one? Um, and it. Kinda worked out. Mm-hmm. So now we both have Zfs and you never in a million years thought you would have a digital Nik icon.

Mandy:

No, I've never Do you like

Esteban:

it?

Mandy:

Yeah, so far I'm loving it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes, the role is

Esteban:

actually not a little but way bigger than the XT fifties.

Mandy:

Yeah. So when we bought the XT fifties, we had looked at this camera and I think we were, we had, uh, maybe four bodies we were considering and we were kind of like, okay, not this one for this reason, not this. And the reason why I said no to this one, I believe was the size. Yeah. Um,

Esteban:

it's a, it's a big camera. I was, it's not for travel. It's, but it's

Mandy:

for travel. I don't want this size, but you know, as time goes on, you change your mind about things and

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

But you can go, go on, you can tell them about all the specs'cause you're, you know, all of this stuff.

Esteban:

So it's a, uh, 24 megapixel sensor, I believe. Um, I mean, the autofocus is the same as like the Z eight, which is a great autofocus. Uh, the sensor's beautiful. I mean, Nikon, I think, in my opinion, has the best white, automatic white balance out of all the camera systems. It's

Mandy:

full frame. I don't know if you said that earlier. Uh,

Esteban:

it's full frame instead of an AP PSE sensor, which is the Fujis that we have.

Speaker 4:

Mm-hmm.

Esteban:

Um, and I just, I mean, I, I think. Again, the big aspect, or the big solid point to this is just the mechanical aspect of it. Yeah. Which is what

Mandy:

one of the features we were looking for in their camera. So the

Esteban:

Yeah, yeah. You, you have your, your clicking like this. Mm-hmm. I love that sound. So,

Mandy:

and what camera was this modeled after or It's like an i, it's camera right?

Esteban:

FD two. Um, yeah, it's an old film camera, but people,

Mandy:

uh, when we bring them out, people think they're film. People ask like, what are you shooting? Yeah. Yeah.

Esteban:

Um, and again, I think it's just a great sensor. Uh, it's not the most ergonomic camera. Yeah. It's a little bit harder to hold. So we've, we've, you don't like this, but you can get like a grip for it. Um, and then a thumb grip as well to Yeah. To kind of hold it. Um, but it's a great camera. I, I love the image quality. We, this is the only camera I used in Utah, and we got some great images mm-hmm. Out of it. Um, I mean,

Mandy:

arguably nicer than the in low light. Yeah. Nicer than the images I was able to get on, um, my Canon R five,

Esteban:

R five, which is significantly more expensive.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

And this, and this camera. Um, yeah.

Mandy:

Under the long exposure, low light of the, um.

Esteban:

Yeah. The noise and shadows is much less than like the cannon sensors.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Um, but, and it's the, the camera costs under$2,000.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Which is kind of a steal for a full frame Nikon. Yeah. Um, so

Speaker 3:

it's just, yeah, I'd be happy. Yeah.

Esteban:

And all the other thing that I really love about this is that the, the flange distance, the sensor is so close to the flange on the, on the camera that you're actually able to adapt. Way more lenses than you would another mirrorless camera. So a lot of people actually use these Nikon cameras, the mirrorless cameras with Sony autofocus lenses. Okay. Yeah. Um, and you can't really do that with any other camera. Uh, there's also an adapter that I'm a big fan of Leica, and this is a Leica, um, like a mount lens, a typo, 28 millimeter 1.4, and you can get an adapter that actually makes this an auto focus lens. For like$250.

Mandy:

Wow.

Esteban:

So, mm-hmm. There's a lot of features to this that just work.

Mandy:

And you were saying the, um, the film.

Esteban:

Oh, yeah. Simulations

Mandy:

are,

Esteban:

yeah. I mean, I'm

Mandy:

not sold yet on this. Yeah. The ability for this, we have to figure out first, we're still

Esteban:

kind of playing around with them.

Mandy:

It's not as easy or intuitive as like, I mean, I have literally a knob right on the, the Fujis that all like to switch the film type.

Esteban:

Yeah.

Mandy:

So, and

Esteban:

my Panasonics, you can actually. Turn a Lightroom preset into a Q file and send it into the Panasonic, which is amazing. Uh, but this uses a special software. I forgot the name of it is, um, but it looks like you can customize them. A lot.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Uh, and get some pretty cool recipes. So, um, but something that

Mandy:

just takes a little more, a little more work. Yeah, a little more effort than Fuji has them right there ready to go. You can also create your own. And then of course, the Panasonic, you've just converting something you've already created. Yeah. So I, yeah, I look forward to playing around with it more, but so far I'm happy we're just shooting raw and keeping it like that and editing later.

Esteban:

Yeah, it's a fun camera.

Mandy:

Yeah,

Esteban:

definitely recommend it. I think it's on sale right now. I think it's like 1900 bucks or something.

Mandy:

Oh, nice.

Esteban:

Um, for the silver and maybe 1800 for the black one. So yeah,

Mandy:

at first I really liked the silver one too, but the black one is growing on me. I, I like it a lot. Yeah. Alright. So tiny bit of travel, kind of jumping back in time again. Um, to when we went to one of our most favorite cities in America.

Esteban:

Bridgeport, Connecticut.

Mandy:

Just kidding. Uh, Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. So Chicago, we hosted, or you hosted, I co-hosted, helped host, um, the two day workshop in Chicago. Yep.

Esteban:

Steel Flint workshop.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm.

Esteban:

Which is again, taking a different approach to them.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Focusing more on like composition storytelling as opposed to just

Speaker 4:

mm-hmm. Ton of

Esteban:

lighting stuff. Um, but again, Chicago kind of.

Mandy:

Yeah. Leans

Esteban:

in towards that. Yeah.

Mandy:

Chicago, New York. Um, they're all really good cities to be practicing the techniques and stuff that you're teaching at the workshop. And, um, we, we don't have anything coming up on the books for the next workshop, so we're sort of, we're wondering where we should go. We love Chicago, we love New York. Um, I mean, you've hosted them. In almost every state like way. Yeah. But, um, yeah, we're looking for somewhere to go, coming up and we're, so yeah. If there's somewhere you think we should go to teach the workshop, let us know.

Esteban:

Good street photography. Yeah. I like street photography is definitely a plus. We like to stay a couple days later, which we did in, in Chicago.

Mandy:

Absolutely. It's a must.

Esteban:

Like we did the, we do the, um, what's that called? The walk The Oh,

Mandy:

the river walk.

Esteban:

The river walk,

Mandy:

yeah.

Esteban:

Um, Chicago's got great canals, great food. We were able to get gluten free. Oh yeah. Deep dish pizza. Yes. Mm-hmm. Which is really good. So good. I forgot what the name of the place was. Ours

Mandy:

was an RI think it's one of, it's one of the like most famous places. Um, it is right near the river walk in downtown. Oh yeah. Great. It was around that tip of my tongue. But yeah, the food was so good and we just like that river walk at night is just, it's magical.

Esteban:

Yeah, it's beautiful. We love Chicago. Uh, I feel like it gets a bad reputation is amazing. It does'cause of the outskirts of Chicago, but when you're in the city, oh my gosh, yeah. It's like a much cleaner New York. The infrastructure is beautiful. The architecture is beautiful. Yeah. Which we've done the architecture tour a few times, right? Yeah.

Mandy:

It's, yeah. Um,

Esteban:

and just learning about the city is just amazing. And there's also enough interesting characters there. Yeah. Where you still get that like. Yeah. Grungy feel from the city.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Um, which is cool, but it's,

Mandy:

but it's not to the same level as being in York. New York. New York. Like New York is

Esteban:

New York. You're walking around. Yeah. We

Mandy:

love New York, but like, I mean, you just turn your head and there's something going on.

Esteban:

Yeah. It's something you may or may not even

Mandy:

wanna see.

Esteban:

Yeah. It can be a lot. Mm-hmm. But yeah, Chicago is definitely a favorite for sure. Yeah.

Mandy:

So we're looking for a new city to host a workshop. So yeah.

Esteban:

So let us know. Where we should go. Mm-hmm. And we'll be there.

Mandy:

Yeah,

Esteban:

definitely. Or maybe you've already picked a city.

Mandy:

Maybe. I mean, I've mentally picked a bunch, but yeah. Whether or not we get there soon is,

Esteban:

yeah. We usually do Miami in December. I

Mandy:

know,

Esteban:

but I don't think that's gonna happen this year. I, I know. We'll see.

Mandy:

Mm-hmm. I'm

Esteban:

gonna miss if we don't go to Park Basel, I, I

Mandy:

know. We should just go on our own for podcast's sake and not even workshop like two days.

Esteban:

Two days of Art Basel. Yeah, I could probably do that, huh?

Mandy:

Yeah. Imagine, imagine. Imagine a December without Miami.

Esteban:

Oh, geez.

Mandy:

I mean, what is it? Four years? There's been workshops and not ours, but other workshops that we've gone to. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

Esteban:

Yeah. So let us know where you want us to go, and hopefully we will get there. Mm-hmm.

Mandy:

Yay. Okay. Well thank you for listening.

Esteban:

Yeah, thanks for listening. Uh, make sure you subscribe to the podcast.

Mandy:

Yeah.

Esteban:

Uh, and listen in and, uh, give us your

Mandy:

feedback and your comments and topics you wanna hear about. And yeah,

Esteban:

that's it. That's it. Over and out. We're done.

Mandy:

Bye. Goodbye.