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Stick Your Apology Wullie

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A very difficult week for refereeing decision's and the lads discuss 

- The Motherwell Away

- Falkirk at home

- Referees, the decisions and the ramifications 

then what could be 

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to Old Castle Rock, the podcast that talks everything heart of Midlothian. We're back for another week. We'll try and do a wee bit longer than we did last week. And to be honest, we have got a probably a bit more to talk about. It's me, Andy Dixon, obviously. And I'm joined at the moment by Gavin Kennedy. How are we, big guy?

SPEAKER_01

Alright, mate. Aye, very good, very good. Emotionally drained. And a wee bit. I'm trying to think of a word to be honest with you, VA, but you know what I mean? But aye. It's been emotional, definitely.

SPEAKER_03

And obviously he's just joined the chat.

SPEAKER_04

I am very well. Um but it's been a very, very, very draining last couple of weeks. And it's uh it's I'm sure like the same as you've taken its toll, to be honest. I know we talk a lot about mental health on this podcast, and quite rightly so. But uh yeah, it is it's taking its toll, and I'm actually quite looking forward to everything being settled one way or another on Saturday, so I can feel like I can just get on with living my life, if I'm being honest.

SPEAKER_03

No, absolutely, absolutely right. So there's two obviously we've had two games since the last time that we obviously have done the the podcast. Both games have had talking points and have had the have obviously had talking points on the park, off the park, everything else in between. So I mean the first thing is in regards to without going into a great bit of depth and detail in regard to Saturday. Obviously, we went to Fur Park, we drew one all, we lost Mark Leonard and Craig Halkett, both to ACL injuries, and both of them are out for between six to nine months, which is a bit of a bit of a shitter, um, although at the same time it is a week before the end of the season, so it's probably not as bad as we we may think. And then it then came down to referee some more. Refereeing decisions. Anybody want to talk about Saturday first before we obviously discuss the referee decisions? Um and then Falkart, Gavin Fleming.

SPEAKER_04

Saturday, um it's actually quite a struggle, right? To actually kind of reconcile everything that's been going on because a lot of these kind of games have all kind of turned into a bit of a blur for me, Andy. Kind of like I'm going back to like the Darby kind of the Rangers game, and then Motherwell was so quick, and then Falkirk was so quick. So it's actually quite hard to kind of go back. But um, in terms of the call-outs, mate, you want to just go straight to the uh decisions. Oh well, sorry, first of all, you know, it's a it's a cry and shame for a Leonard and Halquette. I think it's good to call that out despite everything that's going on just now. Leonard came in in January and did a really, really good job for us. Um replacement for Cammy, and I think that's really gonna, you know, put pay to the chances of signing him. Half what can you say? He's had an excellent season. Uh so disappointing, it's so unfortunate. The season that he's actually done so well to keep himself in shape, and he gets a completely innocuous injury like that, and even though they say nine months, you're probably looking at a year going arch injuries, so you know it's a sickener, but obviously um we're wishing them all the best. And just to go the penalty, just to go to the pens on Saturday and then I'll let Gav come in. The handball didn't notice it in real time, to be fair, against Mother Well, okay. One of these kinds of retrospective ones that only want to be shown again. I think it was a penalty, and obviously the Kizzy one, I think that was a penalty too, and I have no idea why when the game gets stopped and the ret goes over, McLean decides not to get it in the context of it. If it had been missed completely, I wouldn't have been that bothered if that made sense. Is it like maybe they'd just gone with McLean's decision, Andy? You know, so McLean maybe just looked at it and they thought, oh McLean's not given that, we're okay with that. Because I can slightly under I can slightly understand the argument that's getting put forward, right, about the level of contact, and because he does do a fall a couple of forward roles and a few star jumps, right? However, the fact that he gets called over to the VAR it makes and the game gets stopped, makes me think that really it shouldn't have been a pen. So I think we know that we're gonna be talking about fucking penalties a lot tonight, but that's where I am, mate. That's what I am.

SPEAKER_03

Kennedy, what's your thoughts on on Motherwell quickly? I know I was at the game with you, or bumped into you at the game and I couldn't get rid of you. So what's um what are you what's your thoughts then in regards to to that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so basically I feel the same as Fleming. It was like, well, I do really feel really proud of that game because I I thought we played really well. Um it was one of our better away performances away from home. I thought we contained a really good mumble size or majority of the second half of that. Even when he scored, we still looked a better team. Um, and that was really quite refreshing to see away from home, eh, especially with uh how hard it was for us to get a victory at Easter Road the couple of weeks before you because we had to fight and scratch a claw with it. But we just didn't do enough for the final third day, and that was the really frustrating part. Um I don't know if his subs were wrong, it was his made changes too late or what, but uh, it was very frustrating that decision uh really maybe so destroyed uh the team in terms of like getting any sort of like major chance because like if you don't get a penalty after stock gets played like Gav says it's like what when are you gonna get a proper decision or whatever for you, you know? And uh that that was a hard part to get in your head, it really was.

SPEAKER_04

Can either of you can either of you even slightly understand the counter-argument that was getting put back about McLean's saying that there was contact, but he didn't think it was enough to justify that.

SPEAKER_01

If he turned around and said it's because a player was maybe looking the other way, which he was, and he almost we more we more like clashed and tangled with each other rather than actually made an attempt to foul him in the box and create contact on him. Because that's absolutely nonsense. It goes back to again like with a Braga uh dive and he went he got minimal contact, went almost went down but came back up again and chased after the ball. But if he stayed down, he would have got the penalties, sort of thing, you know what I mean? So uh yeah, it's just mind-boggling, mate. Yeah, it's right.

SPEAKER_03

So in regards to see first of all, see the handball, the one you're talking about quickly. I'm gonna just get my we my two bits in because I've um in regards to these two decisions, is that the in regards to the handball, I've seen it uh well when at the game I noticed it at the game and I was like, that's a penalty, because you could like it's obviously you see it look hit his hand at the game, and but you're like you don't know where about in the arm it's hit him, and it's not until you see the replays, you're like, by the way, how have they not given that? How have they not checked it? Um in regards to the in regards to the penalty, obviously the Kizaridus one at the game, so obviously I'm in the top tier, and I seen I could I was looking down on it and I seen it happen. And it's one of these at the time I'm thinking, right, okay, I think that's a foul. I'm going to scream, I think that's a penalty, but they keep playing. Now the game is played and played, and then obviously the video referees having the words in the ear saying that you might have missed something. The ball was stopped when it wasn't even dead, so he stopped the game. It wasn't like one of these ones where they wait till the ball goes out to do to do it, they stopped the game to do it, and at that point you think to yourself, because 99 times out of 100, when they go to that monitor, they overrule the decision and they obviously don't give it. And he's decided right, okay. This is the time that I'm I am actually going to stick with my original decision, which is you know what, sometimes it's as fans that's what we do ask, but at the same time, it is very frustrating as that, it's very frustrating. Now, in regards to the wording of it as well, when it comes to there was contact, but minimal, but there wasn't enough contact, I think the words are very ambiguous because I get that it's not not every bit of contact in a football match is a foul. But the wording doesn't tell me is it a foul or is it not a foul? Because if I if me and you are running for the goal, Gav, and I and we make contact with each other, it doesn't make it automatically a foul. But if I stand on your foot as you're running and fall over, and then I pull my hands away, that is very, very clearly a foul because he's trying to protest that he's not done anything.

SPEAKER_04

And also, Andy, I I I think it's just briefly, mate. I think um the way is running at such pace, right, to get that, okay? So I I know that when you watch that back, right, that can someone can say, oh, what's he doing? He's he's going down like he's been shot or whatever, right? However, like you just said, he is running at pace, right? And it doesn't take a lot when you're going dual well to still have the momentum to kind of maybe propel you or throw you forward like that, right? And Gab does make a good point about rather as well. We got healed for one of our players actually trying to stay on his feet, right? And we were actually told by the pundits oh, you know, you need to try and embellish it a little, right? So you know, every football manager will tell you, they tell their players if there's no contacts, right? Let's not try and pretend that they don't, right? So I as you say, Andy, after stopping it as well, I want to know what the rules are for that. Because usually, what's the difference in when they wait until it's gone out of play to check the bar and actually stopping the game, you know?

SPEAKER_03

Well, that's the thing is that normally what would happen is that when it they've the obviously that is as the game's going, the checks are happening because the they're watching the game, the video assistant if he's is watching it and then the assistant is watching it on a delayed feed again. So they're always constantly watching it, but it's not until the they don't normally do the checks unless it's went because even for the even for the the red card that Easter road, they played about a minute and a half to two minutes or whatever it was, until they then waited for the ball to go dead before they came back. That's what I mean, dude.

SPEAKER_04

So what what what is there is is there a threshold for when the the VAR guys go we need to stop the game? I was I was actually a little bit confused about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know, right? This is a bit I actually don't know, but but at the same time, it feels like it's more common sense to stop the game as soon as if you feel that it's a penalty, you stop the game as soon as you should be stopping the game as soon as possible. Because you could play a three or four minute move that maybe ends up in a corner to Motherwell, but then you're pulling it back to a potential hearts penalty, or somebody gets injured, or whatever, when you when it's obviously that. So I think that it's it's it's strange. I don't know the actual threshold, and if anybody does know the threshold, then please let us know. Um, because I don't know what the what the ruling is. I've always assumed for everything I understand about VAR is that the monitor checks obviously don't happen, and the game isn't they stopped until the ball goes dead, rather than just like stopping the game.

SPEAKER_04

That's what I thought, mate. I I I genuinely thought that. So we we I mean I I know you guys were there, but we were obviously watching it on the tele, and we actually all were talking like what's going on. There was like five, six of us, like what are the and we were like, oh, maybe it's that fumble, maybe it's that fumble. And they were like, Oh, stop the game, has to be a penalty, but no, no, not if you're Steve McLean.

SPEAKER_03

By the way, just quickly as we're we're talking about this, about the game as well, because obviously we still went away from home. We well, obviously, in regards to the way we played quickly, they I thought we played okay. I thought was that we were a little bit frustrated and I thought that we did we we looked like we we didn't learn too much about playing with Motherwell because they they scored exactly the just about the same goal that they scored that they score every week where it comes up the inside where they break and they down the flank and then they they cross it, they cut it in and they score. Obviously, it does come come off Kingsley and it becomes his own goal. But then Shanks gets his chance. Well, before that, actually, they Swallow makes a really good save, and to which Kennedy went, Oh, I bet you're uh I bet you're devastated he's made that save. I was like, No, Mr. Kennedy, I'm very happy he's made that save. Thank you very much. Um then obviously Shanks has the has his mass, and you've seen screenshots, and it looks like it he's he's basically just having to tap into an early net, and if he probably takes an extra touch, the the defender's momentum takes him away for it and he he can slot it in.

SPEAKER_04

But I again we do I think I think his I think his brain, Andy, just subconsciously goes, This is an empty net. You're right. I think he's like this is a goal, he's like he's already celebrating, eh? Um and to be fair, the motherwell boy comes out of nowhere, but uh he made up for it, he made up for it. Sorry, on you go, on you go, sorry. No, no, that's fine.

SPEAKER_03

I was just gonna say obviously we then we then obviously we then get the goal. Um there was just the other wee bit of VR check and we thought it was a is that a potential foul, which is obviously it's that's obviously not given, and it's one all and we have chances at the we have chances in the second half to win the game, and it probably just left feeling a wee bit frustrated more than anything else that on the way home. Well I did anyway. Um you do leave frustrated. Do you think we maybe should have a penalty and or two penalties and things?

SPEAKER_04

And it's just I would say I I I I I I I agree with McGarth to an extent though. I I thought the actual performance was was reasonable, Andre. Like that's a that's a decent Motherwell team, and they didn't really they didn't really cause us any problems. And I actually felt that heart's boss the majority of the game, surprisingly. Uh so I actually thought we dealt with it quite well, especially with another makeshift team and and the two injuries. I I do agree, you know, the final third, maybe the last 20 minutes are maybe not created as much. Uh, but in isolation, it's a good result. Uh it's just it's the circumstances, and you're saying you're frustrated. As you know, I was raging at all getting the penalty. Raging, it's it's it's the penalty, and we should have been given the penalty. I think Shagun would have scored, it was into the heart send. We went 2-1, it's game on. But uh, I've got a feeling that's not going to be our last chat about penalties somehow, eh?

SPEAKER_03

It won't be, it generally won't be, but at the end of the day, we drew um results didn't go our way on the Sunday, and then we moved on to Wednesday. Um, obviously, Devlin obviously came on for 10 minutes at the end of Motherwell, and he started he started last night. Harry Millen was back in as well. Um, and I'll be honest, in regards to the game, we we were quite slow to start. Obviously, we were a wee bit shaky, maybe a wee bit nervy last night, would you say?

SPEAKER_01

Um typical way for our start games. It's been happening for the last eight or so games. We just we don't seem to find a ribbon, we don't can't don't seem to find free string passes and all that. And it gets like it takes normally for the other team to score before we actually manage to settle into games. Um thankfully, uh, we didn't do that in the ND because he had a couple of offsides, you know what I mean? But it was a wee bit nervy, like I'm not gonna lie, especially Frankie Kent falling on his RC. I don't know if he had uh Cabory's boots on eh, but I was a bit more nervy watching that like.

SPEAKER_03

But yeah, exactly. But then obviously, as the game progresses, it became uh Kent has Kent's header, he's a cracking header, Devlin takes his goal well. Um in the second half, the obviously Moun comes off for Kingsley, Devlin plays a wee bit longer in the second half, gets minutes under his belt, Altena comes on, and to be fair, I thought Altena's done alright in the last game and a half in midfield. Yeah, um for the bit that he's for the bits that he's played, I thought he'll look quite settled when we're at Motherwell. He didn't do much wrong yesterday, but I thought yesterday was quite uh quite a routine, a routine one, would you say, for a 3-0 top six match at home? It felt I didn't have fleman.

SPEAKER_01

Once we got the goal, it was obvious that they were just gonna collapse, eh? And he did.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, one thing I'll say about uh Falker was that their keeper was absolutely dreadful from start to finish. He kicked it out of play five times. I mean, that's like something like uh uh you know what I mean. Gordon used to do in this he day when he couldn't kick a ball, you know what I mean? But I don't remember Conn did it for four times or whatever it was, hey. Um it was absolutely ridiculous. I mean, like he did even did it to the other side as well. He did it like three times to the left and once to the right. It's like my god. And then on top of that, I noticed as well that Shanglin noticed this, and then it was him that kept pressing the keeper and the defender after that. And Bragg was almost like standing off it, and like, Bragan, why are you pressing this as well? It was really weird that no one said anything to him. But Shanglin was the one that spotted the weakness, eh? And he was asking the keeper questions, eh? Um, I thought that was really good by Shagland A. He was like, uh, it was brilliant, like um, and then obviously that go of ahead of my Kent as well, and I was annoyed because I was gonna put money on him scoring, but he was six to one and I thought me on shite a, so I didn't bother. I wish I did an eye site that way, but so six to one's no bad.

SPEAKER_03

Fleming, what's your thoughts on yesterday's performance?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's it's it's quite it's actually I'll be honest, Andy. I find it quite difficult to answer, right? Because of the game, right? Uh how what it meant. I just all I mean is mate, it's not like a kind of normal game. I couldn't I wasn't really watching it like a normal game as in how we're playing. It was more like hi, we were quite nervy in the first 10-15. I was like, oh, we're not settling. But like Gab says, it does take us like almost 15-20 minutes till we do grow into games. It's been a characteristic of the side all season, and you've got confidence that should come into a game eventually. But the issue is that we we keep going behind, and again, that was happening last night. Um we got the goals, and like you say, objectively, it was quite a routine second half, and I think that's just because Dell was like, let's just get these three points, and you know, we get that we get that third goal at the end, it's um it's almost lost amongst everything else. A lovely goal from Spittle, actually. I really, really, really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01

Nice one too as well. The one two itself was brilliant, eh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

There was a couple of a couple of moments in the game that were just quite uh surreal, like obviously the crowd reaction when Motherwell went won the lot, right? But then there was that then then there was that there was that false, the false one. And I I don't I can't quite recall though if the false rumor was around.

SPEAKER_01

Was someone on the picked up or Simon?

SPEAKER_04

Nah, I think I think whatever happened, mate, obviously it went round the ground, right? But it spread round almost three quarters of the stadium, so God knows how how it happened. They then there was even a lad in front of me that was like, Oh, two nil, two nil, and he was the boy that actually said one nil, one nil and showed it on the screen. But I think when the two nil rumor went round, I think Cammy scored maybe just after that. Like I think folks bought we were winning two nil and they were losing two nil and it would all calm down it was like oh no it's still one nil but uh I'd have that beat twice as well eh I thought it was like oh it was it was it was it was a good it was it was a good it was a good performance and it was routine but uh it's I I found it hard to kind of think about how how well we played for anything I have the second half as well I I I I I didn't really concentrate on the second half I was just watching the scores refreshing from Far Park. Honestly it was uh it was quite it was quite odd. It was quite an odd night actually. It's quite an odd night. It was and now Fleming's been itching to talk about this for the last 22 minutes um in regards to it because any time that we're trying to I'm trying to keep him away from talking about referees penalties and everything else that happened at Far Park, he keeps trying to he keeps trying to um take us on that tangent so we might as well start obviously in regards to to referee and we touched on it we touched on it briefly uh as we as we we talked about uh far park our game at 4 park and referees at 4 park obviously have this week have had an absolute joke so we uh obviously in regards to the result didn't go our way on Sunday last week either where our closest league challengers Celtic got a goal given that was offside we had a red card not given um I think uh the wrong player got booked as well they booked Tierney for something when it should have been Johnston um and then Johnston had a tackle a bit like the Hibs boy had the week before and that was uh not upgraded on VR or anything like that and then it came out yesterday it was the exact same And just very very quickly right the Alistair Johnson tackle right it is almost identical to the McGrath one right in the Hibbs and Celtic game right so it does leave you going where's the consistency right I the no reason I'm saying okay the yellow card is because I don't think I think the McGrath one could have been a yellow as well so I'm like right I kinda get it right but when you get one red what's the rationale right for the difference and also they were they were talking about the Butland um the the the you know the pundits oh there's no way he was saving that well that's not the rule the the rule is if if he's blocking the eye you know the eye line of the keeper and is it impacting on the keeper's line of sight which he was and he was off south so it's just to say oh is it is it uh uh no no you'll just get me down the rabbit hole mate but um no no well what I was what I was next gonna say was that happened what also came out on Sunday was that Martin O'Neill had meetings with referees head William Willie Collum um and then in between those matches willie collum issued an apology um to hear for not getting their penalties at uh far park like that's knee fucking good knee good Willy stick your apology around that that's fine so so what was he sorry and and and I think to myself what what what CLT and obviously Rangers right have done this for years right we know they do it they know we know they do it right and the whole Scottish football knows they do it they are very clever in the way that they put the pressure on the officials right in terms of calling out statements going public a therror meetings and I think to myself in Selvic's case right what have they what have they actually got to justify their moaning this season the trusty red card at Tincastle right which was a dogzo and uh what was the other one when uh I think trustee again got sent off against him at Parkhead right for a karate chop right and you're and that's their decisions you're thinking there are two red cards what what are you talking to the officials about seriously look at the look at look at what happened right when when trustee got sent off because that it suddenly turned dog zone to the world's biggest topic in Scottish football where everybody had an absolute shambles like everything went to absolute shit because Trusty got sent off for Celtic right so obviously we're following the game at yesterday some of us more than others actually had the Bairns but I had both Bairns at the game yesterday so I wasn't going to be following it following it as religiously as used um but obviously it comes through one all what one null one two one and then two two and then I I think was it two one when Motherwell should have had a penalty I'm trying to think of the the timeline. I think actually and I'm not even I don't mean it as in to be fair right I I did read that there was um apparently Celtics one they never got in the first half was obviously was meant to be more of a penalty than the one that they got right but I do believe Motherwell had something similar as well like like you say mate and uh apparently motherwell were good for a good hour of the game as well so you know Motherwell did what they could it wasn't like they weren't trying you know they did what they could thing is though they had to win that game as well because himself winning at IBRUS.

SPEAKER_03

So it's not like it's not like they can sit there and just think oh we'll just try to hang on to our European position eh because they really had to get a result of that and they did do their hardest to do that to be fair to like the same well this is that I don't think anybody can accuse them of lying down and especially when you see the when you when you see the interview for the the motherwheel manager at the end but obviously it then comes through it's two all and at that point with three points on it we knew we had a bit more of a safety blanket going to I to go to parkhead on Saturday and then it comes through 95 minutes or so penalty being checked at Parkhead no Parkhead at first part for Celtic and then at that point it's a case of looking at group chats and everything else people going given how is that a penalty given given three two and then it just it just deflates you so much right because I sat on that bus after the game. Now both my kids were buzzing and I think I've told you both that my kids are buzzing. Hutch's a topic leader a point in front and Hutch won three zip last night they're absolutely delighted. Everybody else on that bus is absolutely devastated you thought we got beat four or five mil because of the way that it happened the way that the way that it happened at 4 park the way that it seems anytime that Celtic need every time Celtic need a result or anything like that the something pops up for them. They play in 90 you play in five minutes extra time and you play actually this you play ten minutes like it happens constantly like constantly how many times does this happen um and yeah and that that was just and when you see it as well when you act then then you get it sent to you and you see the actual incident and it bounces off Sam Nicholson's head and you're just like are you joking and then when you see that basically beat and walks over walks over to the fucking monitor looks at it like he's had a fucking quick look to see what table he's sitting at at fucking Nando's or something and then just walks back and goes penalty like are you for real?

SPEAKER_04

Take a fucking look at it it took three and a half minutes at Far Park it took five minutes to decide if a goal was off at the Emirates the other night like what is he how has he looked at that so quickly and went that is a penalty how has he done how how I there's so there's so much to to to unpack in that is as well Andy right because uh you've got everything about this is like right the literally I think this incident was 94 minutes and 50 seconds right so for the VA to call that over as we all know right you know clear and obvious that's not clear and obvious right has Deon missed an obvious mistake no is it is it is it a handball well no I'll tell you even if it does touch his hand even if it does touch his hand number number of angles and it's it's it's it's it's not a hundred percent to say yes or to say no so that means that the VAR guy how can he then say this is definitively handball when we've had all this debate your Danny Lemakers your Jeff Stevens getting involved right Don Hutchison all commenting on it right and then as you say beat him in 20 seconds now he has still got it within his gift to go oh well this is like Stephen McClain on Saturday that watched that at least 10 plus times right and actually you you make a kind of semi decent point that sometimes it's okay for a ref to go this is my on-field decision you know but in this instance how can beaton just go that is definitely handball and I think who was who was on bar Andy who who was the bar last night who was it who was it Clancy you just keep going I'll find that I was just I was I was just wondering because sometimes there was a conversation that was had at the weekend about when the VAR official is maybe not as senior as the on-field referee do the on field refs think they made it oh I just said it was Jerry Adams that was on the VAR A so that's uh so so that's right so there you go so there was um something like is it a conversation right about you know I know it was Andrew what it's Andrew Dallas andrew Dallas who's a senior so Dallas is is Dallas not the most senior var referee so he's a very senior referee in Scottish football so yeah there should be no seniority between those two right right okay so this is what so I'm only thinking is that a reason because of the level that Dallas is at isn't just kind of going I am happy if that if Dallas is saying that as opposed to Saturday and I think Stephen McLean is potentially a little bit more senior than I think it's Greg Aitken that was on bar so McLean goes no I'm the more experienced rep right I I'm just trying to kind of think to myself if there's some kind of possibility there right but it's just not a penalty because you can definitively say it's a penalty right and in the context of this season with the world focused on this title race okay but no Scottish officials go to the World Cup right to call that surely the easier option would be to let that game play out to avoid the controversy what are they scared about the Celtics never even claimed for it they didn't even claim for it they wanted the corner they wanted when you watch it they want the corner the the thingy they think it's a head knock to is it trustee is that who it is yeah is it trustee so trusting the was trustee goes up because it's trustee nudges Nicholson's arm up as they're trying to jump for the ball and basically they think it's a head knock but they're shouting they're screaming for the corner they have no interest it they don't think it's a penalty and the fact that Martin O'Neill had to ask the PBC at the end of the game or Sky whoever it was was it for the penalty for handball or for an elbow tells you that there's no clear and obvious error but as long as Celtic get the fucking penalty then they should is it doesn't really matter and to be fair when when you've got people like Gary Lineker tweeting last night Jeff Stellan tweeting last night you've got Simon Jordan who's told them a new arsehole today on Talk Sport you've got Gabi Agonho talking about on national radio the football ramble were talking about it on their Rambo Reacts they actually they were they react they were meant to react to the Man City game but they started to be harsh because of what happened as well like because it's going to national media I'm hoping that that's something that's maybe going to be good for Sunday because we it means that it's maybe it's more in the open you're then talking about what McKinnon said when McKinnon called it disgusting yesterday as well last night which is good because that's what needs to happen because you mentioned it earlier when something bad happens to Celtic or Rangers are never at the media and this is what this is what we need to be doing is they need to be and internally our CEO needs to be or chief executive whatever his fucking job title is needs to be pressuring them internally even if it doesn't come out that they should be pressuring them to say by the way that is an absolute fucking disgrace of refereeing standards last night how is that a penalty um so yeah that's I I I genuinely as well right I I understand right that we were talking about this in the pub beforehand right it's that a sound because we're doing a pod day it's that sound balanced as well sometimes right but you think to yourself we can no but no what I mean is well mate you think um you know conspiracies right and I I kind of think right um you know whether or not they're not all sat in theater's cover thinking how can we get this at I know Celtic fans and Rangers fans and hibies and say ah oh what about the Cabore penalty well he got kicked in the head to say uh oh you got two players sent off in the derby uh because the keeper picked up the ball inside the box and the guy got two yellow cards I bet you know what I mean I'm like okay well there's still decisions the only the only ones this season I can think of actually are the first game I brought this season when we did get a couple on another day you wouldn't get Chancellor's handball and a Rangers goal right and I get teams get decisions I I think though at this stage in the season with the the eyes of the world like you say this has gone global what's going on in Scotland this season right why at this stage of the season do you make a decision as the bargain you like you you said the evidence one as well Andy they took right now it was obviously it's it's annoying as a fan that they took I think six minutes right to make a decision on Sunday right and they did that because they were at least properly checking you know the initial and and I know but I know they had to go to uh through two or three fumbles though for that right so that's that's fine that's fine but still they knew the size of it they knew the impact on Arsenal they knew the impact on city and they knew the impact on West Ham right and that's why they took their time with us it's who's just gonna piss off more 6000 Celtic fans or 2000 hearts fans and it's almost like this is okay this is it why why did he why did he get involved why did he he didn't need to get involved right and it needs she's like who does he support generally do we do we know who the bad guy supports the the guy from last night no has he got any lean-ins at all has he got any lean-ins at all that was on last night andrew dallas yeah yeah i i've always believed it's rangers but I don't know because it's Q Dallas's laddie and I didn't really know who his actual leaders are but what what I would say is that bear in mind that so he's he's grown up with this as well as a child he's grown up with the way that fans treated his dad and the way that fans have assumed and treated him as well and this is what happens is that these people are making decisions is it safer to give the not to give the penalty or to give the penalty and not offend Celtic fans stroke rangers at at other times but at this point we're talking about Celtic because what happens is that these people have these people have had their businesses their businesses like tried to be set on fire.

SPEAKER_03

They've had their windows smashed and like negative reviews and stuff like that do happen as well but like I had some I had I was a I've seen like obviously after Saturday somebody had posted like Stephen McLean's company whatever he does but this is what happens on a big scale is that these people like these like the Green Brigade for example they'll they hassle these referees so that obviously comes to a self-conscious thing as well is that is it a 50-50 decision and am I safer to give that so that it makes my life easier by not giving it because if I don't give that and Celtic lose the league am I is this going to be is it my is it my head going to be on the block and they that's so I don't I don't think it's to do with initially to do with Celtic um because or who who the the VR guys because at the end of the day if we all think that the guy who maybe had Celtic lean-ins and and I don't think Andrew Dallas does have Celtic lean-ins I would say he's maybe have more Rangers lean-ins but we're all we're all led to believe that John Beaton is a Rangers man.

SPEAKER_04

So as a Rangers man why would if why why is John Beaton basically going up there when he's got the power to override the VR this is what I was saying so I I I find this so the point the point that you made about the so the 5050s right and I I'm try I can I could sometimes understand as a ref right when you're and we know this right and actually right I think we've said before right smaller clubs that maybe come to towncastle right probably do notice it right and maybe because we're jambos right I'm talking maybe with you know your Lives and Dundees and that we maybe do get a little bit more rubber the green right in these games right and they maybe go away and they say oh the ref was terrible right so maybe there's a little bit in that and but what I can't get as you say so beating goes over and is he thinking yeah if I don't give this oh I'm gonna get this I'm already in trouble with calling this he's then for my performances which let's face it he is he shouldn't be there for the end he should be demoted he's thinking I can't handle the backlash and the controversy and is he just subconsciously kind of going let's give this to Celtic my my my main gripe though Andy is Dallas does not need to get involved in that right that is that is nothing contentious. Do you know right and it it would have sickened me Andy right if if it came through 3-2 Celtic right but as much as it would have sickened me see how I came home mate and I was I was praying I was I was actually praying I was going to come home right and read a report and find out it was uh uh the keeper brought a man down right or it was a handball on the goal line it would have been so annoying I could have gone that is a penalty okay then right it's uh but when I just I just knew it would be something ridiculous right and it's that's what makes you ask the question he did not need to get beaten through the monitor right and mate if Parson got a penalty like that right of course you take it but I swear I would be on the board going how how was that really given I still I still can't see I still I see that his hand's up right but you take away his hand it hits his face you take away you take you take you cut off his hand right and we said this for decision earlier we said this if you were to cut off his hand it would hit his face so do you know what I mean is it's not is what what I mean by that is his arm's not outstretched unnatural from his body and how how does the ball go out for a fucking throw in 20 yards away if that's hit his hand so one thing I want to add to this right and I was like I've been like letting you like on a tangent because I know you've been down to all night anyway so I'll give you a wee bit of like leeway there.

SPEAKER_01

But um think I read earlier as well is that uh a person who we know is not my biggest fan would probably say as an understatement Mikey Stewart he has literally been banned from Hamden for all the stuff he's been slagging off the referees for for the last like few months or so away he's not allowed in the National Stadium at all. That's how much they're trying to silence uh Mikey Stuart and he's still not doing it because he has turned it on today or yesterday whenever it was and he's basically said there have been six decisions by far that have gone against hearts six you can understand one or two maybe it's three but six come on you know I mean questions have to be asked on that like you know I mean I'd be interested to see his findings on that eh and yeah that that's a good point so yeah I know we're all we have a we have a bit of a laugh about Mikey Stewart and everything like that, right?

SPEAKER_04

But some of the stuff he does say is actually on on point, right? And you you're right that the the pettiness levels Of the Scottish football authorities to ban a pundit right from going there thinking he was he wasn't. He was actually banned uh Chris Boyd or uh like he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't allowed in for the the League Cup semi-final just just because so that is like the it wasn't like he said anything genuinely untoward, it was just a continued criticism. So but the criticism was deserved. A better response would be to say, actually, Michael Stewart has said this, we acknowledge where he is potentially coming from. Let's maybe have dialogue or let's try and be the bigger person here and have an open conversation. But that's just that's another, it's just another bad example, right? For Scottish, I for Scottish football. Uh I just I can't I just I don't see what Dallas sees. It's truly easier in the context of the league season to just let that go. Ten seconds to go, Celtex still have a corner. You know they still would have had another two or three minutes as well, by the way. Even though they would have. And see on Saturday, see if it's nil-nil, but like it'll be about 20, it'll be 10 minutes injury time, right? Oh, yeah. Uh week on Tuesday. If they'll win in, if they'll win in 1-0, it'll be three minutes injury time. If it's nil-nil or one-all, it will be at least 8 minutes, right? Mark, mark my words, and it'll get conjured up from somewhere. Now, I I I I don't know if referees can can can can cheat as such, right? I still think the only well, actually look, I'm talking shite because Andy Davis definitely cheated. Duke McDonald definitely cheated in the 2006 cup final, and Bryan's definitely did in the uh the the Celtic New Year's game.

SPEAKER_01

We'll find out what he does, eh?

SPEAKER_04

No, no, no, no, no, no, but there is. I I don't I I'm not saying it's it's all of them, like some of them are just poor referees, but actually Andy Davis that that was cheating, and uh Drew McDonald definitely sometimes did, and uh uh so did Bryce, definitely, definitely quickly as well just be there as well.

SPEAKER_03

It was good to see the Foundation of Hearts also came out a statement as well, um which is obviously good.

SPEAKER_04

Would you not rather would you not rather that had come from McKinley, Andy, or came from Hartsoe?

SPEAKER_03

I would, I would, but at the same time, bear in mind the Foundation of Hearts is the biggest shareholder in the club with two board members. So like in theory, it's the found a statement from the foundation of hearts should carry more weight, and as much as we like, oh we we want it for McKinley, we probably we would because he's the chief executive, but we could understand why he'd be quiet, and I would want him to say something. But people like, oh, what would Tony Bloom say? But Tony Bloom's a minority shareholder in the club, like so like this is the biggest shareholder and the club's biggest shareholders who have come out and said who have come out and said that, and at the end of the day, if it was any other, if it was in any other situation, your biggest shareholder came out and said it, we'll we'd all be buzzing. But because the foundation of hearts has been so mute and so sterile for so long, we don't see it as that. When in theory, that's what the foundation is, and it's good that they've actually come out and said it.

SPEAKER_04

That's a really that's that you that you've actually made that point really well, mate. That's that's you know, you have a I get I totally get where you're coming from. I think if uh you're right, if if the foundation had more regular updates, I you probably would have got that. But when the foundation released a statement, we're all usually like, whoa, the foundation have found a social media profile again.

SPEAKER_03

Normally because of sorry, Gav, quickly uh quickly for a sec. It's normally because any foundation statement in the past has always backed what back to what the club's done. It's never been it's never been to criticize anything, and it's always been to back the club, and that's where we get frustrated. But this is what we needed to hear for the biggest shareholders in the club.

SPEAKER_04

I I just I I and ahead of Saturday's game, right? Part of me thinks like McInnes is a very, very clever manager, very intelligent, right? And I even think in his interviews last night, he was trying to I think McInnes went as far as he could within the the laws. Of course it was, right? But using the thing. Well, I'm I'm hoping I I don't know if they could fast track that through as quickly as that, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03

They can't, you'll be fine. It's too it's too thingy away for it to be.

SPEAKER_04

But I I think I do think I do think using the word disgusting though, I understand that. And I just think with the the the the the the commotion around it, surely you would you would just need to but this this will worries me as well. Column will maybe be in talks with uh Don, whoever it is, um is it Robertson for the weekend and that guys, we we need to get these decisions right, but I don't think last night is the last controversy of the season, right?

SPEAKER_01

Oh absolutely isn't uh it's definitely not. Um as the figures, like I just always said about when it comes to referees in this in this country, I don't think it's a question of him being corrupt, I think it is a question for just that awful, and they're not implementing the technology like England are down south. I mean, there's a good example, like uh I mean you look at the Burrow like so for Harts game on Saturday, you've got one camera angle for that pen away which he used, and he watched that for how many other minutes there was no other camera angles for him to see that incident, just that one, and all we could do is slow it down or freeze it or whatever. But in England you've got what four or five different angles from each side and stuff like that, up on top, and what you got spider cab and everything, eh? You know what I mean? But it's like, how are you expecting these idiots to make these decisions when there's like very little like technology like made available? I'm not making excuses for it, but it it they sort of like reap what we saw in terms of like well that's like there's money they're spending on it because they're the money there, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's it's like it's funny you say that though, Gab, because I know you're kind of calling out England as maybe a superior example, but they do still have horrific issues with um England.

SPEAKER_01

But not as many as they did for the first game. Remember, was it?

SPEAKER_04

I know I know mate, but some of them are still, but no, I I do listen, I do I do get where you're coming from, but of course it's easier for VAR when I believe it's you know 20 plus cameras at a ground in England versus six in Scotland for like non-televising. I I I am I am now. Do you know that we've been debating this for a couple of years, right? And I I was I was on VAR's side, right, up until just I I don't know where I was like, no, because I I still thought that actually it's sometimes I think maybe for actual stonewall stuff against the old firm. And I'm you know, you might like a goal.

SPEAKER_01

There has been stuff that's benefited to us this season, there has, but we can't deny it.

SPEAKER_04

There has yeah, but it was more about am I just thinking that if you just I know it won't happen now, but just if you just did away with no because you know what, mate, yeah, someone will turn around and say, Well, actually, they look at the Pony Penny, for instance, like we would never would have got that without Var because he missed it. I know, I know, I know, I know, and I know you I know you've got to take the buff with a smooth gab. It's just the whole impact it has had.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it does, absolutely, and it's it's it's happened at the the wrong end of the time for us, as usual, and that's what gets the people away. And I get it, as I feel it was just a straight straight a day, but I'm just trying to make the point that it's like it's mainly because of like I I still feel it's not corruption, I just feel it's like they're just absolutely hopeless from top to.

SPEAKER_04

I don't I I I I I don't I I I I don't know, Gab. I'm I when I you know when I say corruption, right? I'm not seriously saying they're all sitting there in a meeting and they're saying, How can we make hearts not win, right? However, I I think individual officials obviously have lean-ins and support clubs. And I think in the Glasgow Goldfish Bowl, I think maybe unconsciously or consciously taking your pit, it just sometimes impacts their decisions in the heat of the moment, with 50 or 60,000 fans getting at you. And like Andy said, you could then maybe uh your family get shouted at in the street, uh, you know, you get your place of business turned over, you know, you get a stone through the window, and that kind of stuff has happened uh in the past. The majority of our referees are also from Glasgow, we hardly have any from anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's the thing is like everyone forgets that referees are like all football fans, you know what I mean? They are that's why the referee, because they love the sport, they probably just were like me and pretty rubbish at football, eh? So we chose a different profession instead, eh? And that's fair enough, eh? I understand that side of it, and the declaration thing, hey, and I'm sure that still happens. I'm sure you have to declare who your actual team is and all of that, eh? But what's it really gonna do in terms of like I don't think you do in Scotland, Gab.

SPEAKER_04

I I think in England you do need to declare who you support. I'm pretty sure you don't need to in Scotland, but it's it's by the bye. But that might be an idea. But how just as well, we're going on at these games, okay? And it's well known who Brother Beaton's allegiances with, right? Why and Dallas as well, actually, right? But why I mean we we won the Rangers game 2-1, and actually, but that was one of those rare occasions when we didn't give them anything to consider, but no doubt they were probably looking at everything, right? But why why have these officials in these high profile matches with Harts with Celtic? Dieton is not a top grade official, right? He he's not, right? The decision earlier in the season when he never gave Livy a penalty at Rangers. No, no, that it was that that that for me that that was when I'm trying to. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01

It's this it's not just us that gets uh everyone.

SPEAKER_04

But you're saying about no no corruption, Gab. That that that was a that was a penalty, like it was it was a clear hand ball, and again, what's easier? You know, or a hundred Livvy fans in a corner of Ibrox or 50,000 Rangers fans. So it's until we until the refs, and I'm not saying foreign refs, right? But unless the training improves, unless they come from a wider geographical pool, uh unless there's more standards, and they why do they never get devoted as well? They make a shit.

SPEAKER_03

Because we don't have enough officials, that's why.

SPEAKER_04

There must be. You can't tell me that's not these guys.

SPEAKER_03

There's not genuine and in all seriousness.

SPEAKER_04

Are you trying to tell me though that the guys at referee in League Two and League One are genuinely worse than the guys in the past?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I don't know, like, and the reason this is, okay, and the reason this happens is because of VAR, okay, they've had to rush but they're rushing referees through the through the system. They're by there's referees that were maybe referee in tier five and six two years ago that are just about to re referee the top tier. That they're genuinely there isn't enough referees because they need six officials per per game for the Scottish top flight. So they're basically rushing officials through. This is this is the this is an issue that this is an issue that they have. I can see it on when I'm obviously know at Tyncastle, when I'm watching these these games at this level, the standard of the refereeing at this level isn't a good.

SPEAKER_04

I forget you go you go to a lot of, yeah, you've been to a lot of those games, but I know mate, I know, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_03

So basically, what another weird thing is as well as when I was listening in the background is that basically up here they don't have to declare, they only have to declare in England because they're professionals. Okay, so referees are professional compared to up here. So they have to declare, they have to declare where they obviously where they live, if they have any connections with any football teams, they have to declare if they've ever had season tickets, if they've got relations with season tickets. Doesn't happen here because maybe they would be there if really referee rangers or Celtic. So and this is the thing when it comes down to part-time referees, full-time referees, and that's a whole different debate.

SPEAKER_04

I I would I would I would be and I will be, as you guys will be, right, distraught, like if if it goes bad on on Saturday, right? But I would I could kinda handle it, right, if it was just fair and square results, right?

SPEAKER_01

So say a kick or like a 30 yard or something like that, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04

Or even like say they just won three. If they won if they won 3-0 last night, or no, but uh if they just have gone on this good little run of form, right? Okay, fair enough. They should be winning these games, right, with their resources, okay? But I just did not want this league to come down to not just a dodgy bar decision, but a shocker, controversial bar decision.

SPEAKER_01

And more than one as well.

SPEAKER_04

But it was almost inevitable as well, Gab, that something horrific would happen. And you come through it and my mind starts going, oh, they thought, oh, we had hibs away, hard game, we'll win that. Oh shit, oh Rangers, oh, we win that. And then all of a sudden, go to Motherwell, no penalties, no penalties, you know, selfish last night, 2-2, oh, penalty, and it and I think there's one sting in the tale to come on uh Saturday. Hopefully, it's for us from somewhere. You never know. You never know.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, speaking of Saturday, I think we maybe done a referee found to death now, so I think we should maybe move on to the preview. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02

That's the thing on Saturday night, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Six hundred fans as well on Saturday Yeah, you're you're going to I and this is we were talking at the start of the the split about the order of the games and actually I still think our order of the matches okay has not worked out terrible, okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, go on.

SPEAKER_04

Now in hindsight, I'm thinking actually, would I rather have had Celtic away in the first game to get it over and done with because we maybe could have got a result. But listen, we need to play them away from home, but usually the team top at the split gets the last game at home. So we're not getting that. And we're going to a league decider with 600 fans in a 60,000 stadium. If Parts win it, do you fancy being a jambo getting out of there? Seriously. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01

Remember in the 0-nil game, Gav, when uh we lost him, we watched him losing the title um helicopter Sunday, and we almost got murdered that day. Can you imagine what it'd be like walking out of a championship with all our um with all our boards?

SPEAKER_04

We'll need to get we would literally need to get kept behind for at least two hours, and I think maybe even walked to the buses and everything. But I I've not it's not an issue with the Celtic Away game. We had to play Celtic Away. Fine. It's the fact that I've now like the conspiracy is oh, you know, Sky would have wanted it, the league kinda wanted it, it's the last day showdown, and I'm just in my mind, I'm like, honestly, you start to think, oh, they're going back to the penalty, or there's your last day showdown now, Sky, and it's just and now where we are going there, what it was 600 fans, uh and and they will they will sing their hearts out, right? But with the best will in the world, you're not gonna get heard over sixty thousand unless we can fucking nullify them and actually shut the fuckers up.

SPEAKER_01

Aye, no, I agree. I mean it's always hard to go to Parkhead with a minimal support, eh? But to do with this occasion, but we can't complain given that we gave him a similar support when they uh could have like won the league at Tycastle that time, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04

Um, because both halves of the old firm have gotten no shame. Right? And then they just think they've just got a sense of entitlement that's just off the the the scales. I I actually thought that there might have been some uh like kind of kind of maybe legislation that like Harts could have used to apply for more tickets for Parkhead, given the size of the game. Apparently not, because it is still within just the league rules about what the club has to offer you and how they can decide. I've got to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01

That's the sad reality of it, eh?

SPEAKER_04

No, I I I I thought I thought we could have made a case to the SPFL to say, you know, based on our league decider, but I get what you're gonna say. Where would they put the Celtic fans, blah blah blah? But I mean they still have 2,000 Rangers fans in the weekend, so where did they put those Celtic fans? Is would be my question. But uh just I stick I I fair to see the people that are going uh on Saturday, they will they'll they will they'll do their sing their hearts out and they will do their best, and we need to do our best as well, and we just need to walk in there with the characters.

SPEAKER_01

As much as I've gotten, I'm not gonna be there at the same time. I think I would be in the outer tatters being there because I'd just be an emotional wreck, and I was like, I don't know how I could handle it. I mean, we've been to some bad parquet games, Gav, as you will, no way. Um but that one would just be like uh I just can't I couldn't even I can't even think of what it is.

SPEAKER_04

I mean if if it was it's it's one of those ones if if it if it went if it went well, right, it could be absolutely tremendous, and it is a moment that would be with you for the rest of your days, right? Yeah, but also if they got a fast start and it was a couple of goals, you'd probably want to get out of there quite quickly, like because of the gloat. It conjures up image as a if we win the league, are we genuinely getting presented with the trophy at Parkhead? I'm I'm not so sure. Well, are there fans all just gonna politely clap as there's as hearts get the trophy on the pitch at Parkhead? I I I I'm not really sure what the contingency is there. I see I'm sure that are the Green. Are they are the Green Brigade gonna allow that? Or they say are they gonna jump on the pitch? Is this been good stuff?

SPEAKER_03

So from just a couple of things, obviously, I've been listening. Obviously, they're up the road. Uh guys, first thing I've I'm gonna jump in for a minute, you're talking about the 600 fans and you're using leg legislation. The only thing I would be have against that is that I wouldn't want to give up our home support in a similar situation to them. So, like, and I totally understand that like 10% of Tinkastle, we probably give them we give them a bigger percentage, but if we start to and that was the thing when I was thinking about it, is that if we negotiate could we try to negotiate for more tickets, but then you're having to give up leeway in regards to the next season next season about giving tickets to them would be the only thing I would say. In regards to what I had I've read today, there is rumors that if we be if we were to somehow not get beat on Saturday, that we would be doing the trophy list at Tynecastle.

SPEAKER_04

On the same day or the Sunday.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Same day, we'd be going back to Tynecastle to do the trophy lift.

SPEAKER_01

No, that can't be right, surely.

SPEAKER_04

I I I I Gab, I can I cannot see a world, right, where no Celtic representatives are at Dickastle.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh, but we're nicer people.

SPEAKER_04

But that's still but Gab, that that was uh that was uh like for hearts, that was a run-of-the-mill game. There was nothing on the line for us, right? We'd all gone home, blah blah blah. 60,000 Celtic fans, right? Who just maybe lost the league, right? Their seasons already.

SPEAKER_00

But why do we pad them to it? It's like basically making sure that was enough security to stop getting on the pitch. I I know, mate, but uh and you're right, but you see what happened to Ibrox.

SPEAKER_04

But wait, but the guy, a part of me thinks with hearts. actually want to do it in those circumstances with Celtic do it. So I didn't really I just I I I it's a people large like I I obviously hope it's a problem we need to worry about, right?

SPEAKER_01

But um I I think it's another way this the Celtics had the noise of what I'm gonna do. Well it would be a it would be a proper helicopter Saturday if I had to date in front of the pick it up in front of the Celtic fans like I I could I can understand the logic and going back to Tinecastle like but then would it there would be no fans there it's it's a strange one lads and have the mind well that's the thing but that's the thing as well right if you do it on the Saturday do you open up Tynecastle to the first 2000 that can get in well that's the thing is like uh the reason why we're not doing beat bats or anything like that is because hips are playing at home and they've got the stewards and the caring facilities that's why Tynecastle already opened it up so how can they just suddenly say aye all you guys are caring and uh police all come over to Tynecastle so we can do lift a trophy no that has to be properly arranged like you can't even say that eh but how do you know that's maybe how do you if you have a contingency plan surely you have to put that into place so that how do you know they've not how do you know how do you know that it's maybe not there this is the thing though is that this is the rumour that they might do it.

SPEAKER_03

What might happen this might be the plan already and that they they're they're expecting it if hearts were to somehow not get beat on Saturday that they would they that the they know that this isn't going to be allowed but the Celtic fans would do it would probably turn into what happened at Ibrox uh in the Scottish cup and then they would say look guys you're just gonna have to do this um take this we'll just take this to we'll meet you at Tynecastle with a trophy and you'll have to do it and because it's no safe for you to do it and they'll blame it on safety fears.

SPEAKER_04

And then and I could I could then see Hart maybe do something on the Sunday as well almost like a kind of a second kind of ceremony maybe having some kind of event but what that but what that does though right is that stops you right because in my head if we were to go there with and come back with the league title it stops them doing the same thing they have to do with um what they do when they win the cup for example when they're on the top of the coach coming back through Gorky Road but this is the thing is I don't know but at the same time I don't want to think about it because I don't know what to talk about because I didn't want to I didn't want to jinx anything either.

SPEAKER_03

I mean I'm sitting here thinking about I didn't why am I talking about this because I didn't know what to jinx it I don't want to because it's hard it's how are you feeling about the game boys how are you genuinely feeling about the whole the game just in just in isolation right obviously we know what it means it's effectively a cup final where a draw can settle it.

SPEAKER_04

Can I ask you an additional question to that Dickel right but start of the season you asked us all for our predictions yeah how many points did you say we were gonna get 82 and we finished second I wouldn't be wrong so now now that it could possibly happen would you be devastated that you got that right under the circumstances that we feel right now even though I would be split turn get double our points record points tell in Champions League qualifier I'd be devastated absolutely devastated like properly devastated um like as much as as much as when I go back to listen to the the uh go back to listen to the predictions pod to do a tally on everything I'll be absolutely furious if I get good marks for that um absolutely I think I think and I I this is not is not trying to sound negative right because I actually ironically ironically right and I don't know what it is at all if it's just the game last night seeing the fans uh David and Goliath the Interns then right this hearts team has had so much character and spirit and fighting it all season right I'm convinced we'll at least get a really good performance right now that might that might not be enough because football is is a funny old game right and and I'm with Andy I know if we don't win it I know the rest of the Saturday and the Sunday I'm gonna feel genuinely down right like it's like fuck me it's the end of the world but then but then but then but then but then to your point to your point it'll get into the week after and then all those little points right that you've made mate will start to come into my head and I'll start to go and I'll think of the victories and the Dark's and the homing away the record points the Braga the Champions League drop and you will start to go oh what a season it's just gonna take that 48 hours you know to get through it but then Saturday if it does go tits up the only thing the only one word I'll have to say to maybe try and cheer you guys up about this whole situation is petrol cut because that had to be the lowest point of any it doesn't matter what happens we did we can get illicit but it still wouldn't be that low there's not there's there's gap there's there's uh for for me there's uh what my crack say so yeah that that that that was low i actually see the lowest last season i i felt like i honestly felt like sack and arts were good when we threw away the the no the the the through the league against ross county at christmas i was like I've had enough of this team I I cannot watch this shower anymore right it was just terrible right but so there's a difference in that I'm not saying this will be a a football mole I'm not gonna come away going oh this is a football low but I'll be like my head will start going we are never gonna be allowed to win this league we will never have this chance again and you start you start thinking it'll never happen again I do believe I still believe we are gonna have more chances however it's not gonna be like this one in terms of both Rangers and Celtic being absolute dog shit both rangers and teams not having all this crisis of the boards the fans the managers the fights on the pitch you know I mean there's been so much in the old firm season I don't care if it's not old firm anymore eh but you know I mean it's like it just makes you show what you can do when you actually get a stable team with a stable manager. You can actually put pressure on these teams and we can actually fight for some of that we've never been able to fight for before we're not the same team that we used to we do spend money but we don't spend it well and that that that's a good point mate because even even rangers right it has kind of been lost a little bit with everything about the weekend that was second place right secure dandy's prediction right Champions League qualifiers the same the same may I add that we all went mental amount in 2006 and we're kind of going into almost the same qualifying round right so it just shows you the difference like we were that was a party that night says la la la and now we're just like oh qualified for the Champions League big deal but it's because of the it's because of how this is then what is in our minds about what it could be right and it's just are we going to be allowed but I think Harts will play well on Sunday I'm actually quite a Saturday I'm quite sure of it and I actually I think we'll score um there's no doubt but maybe we won't we won't score because like their defence is so honking.

SPEAKER_01

There's no danger we're gonna keep us out if it goes for 90 minutes eh or B it's just how many we can get because the final third has been a wee bit of a worry for me lately but I mean we got the best two strikers in the world still eh and you know I mean in the world in the world you know I mean I'm just getting a bit ahead of myself it's like we've seen we've got Gabor you know what I mean so it's like who knows what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03

Seldom did concede to last night they did concede against Rangers they did concede against Tibbs right we have got Shanks and Braga if we had Halkitt I'd be like right this is a this is quite a hard one as well how how are you approaching the game in terms of playing to win playing for the draw it's a bit of a hard one eh I think you've got to play for the win if you've got to set up to win the game if you set up to if you don't set up to win the game that's when you're vulnerable to lose the game or to get yourself caught because your whole game plan is if you set up to draw this game and you lose an LA goal then you're you're panicking suddenly because you're like shit we're here to draw the game no win the game so we have to play our normal game we have to do what we can we've played them three times this season we've played them under we've played them under Martin O'Neill we'll have watched them we'll have we'll have picked out their weaknesses that we think that we have and this is the thing and I'm trying to square in my own circle is that we've had 30 to 40 years of this where we we we're used to going to Parkheed and getting our bellies tickled regardless of how good we're doing we're used to going to Parkheed and getting our bellies tickled and sent home this squad is different this squad is different they've shown that against Celtic they've shown it against Rangers they've shown against Motherwell as well again they have they've beat the whole of the top six they've got good records against the top six and their character as you've already said is there so and McInnes knows what he's doing okay and we might see a little we might be a little bit more defensive and set up to counter a bit more where it is a back three and our and our defenders are are it's more a defensive wing back system than it maybe than we have played before Chris we might even it might even be a back three that has got Mountain Steinwinder as your three as your linebacks with Kingsley playing as the the left of the the back three or something like that where we have got more a defensive setup so that we can then attack and you've got the one thing about Kizzy and last night was one of the best games he's played in a while but what he does is he gets the ball up the park doesn't he gets us up the park so the the the biggest issue we are going to have on Saturday is our uh is our midfield we're down to our bare bones in midfield when really we've got a Devlin who we don't know if he's going to get 90 minutes out of you've got Blair Spittle and Benny Berengemy and Altena comes in and sits in if he needs is the only real option in there but this is the thing is that we have that belief within our squad and I think this is what the issue is is that it's hard for people who have had years and years and years of this to just to think about it and go by the way we've actually we've actually we've got a chance here and I think that we we start when we started the podcast I talked about my nine year old who's who's upbeat he thinks because we're a point at the top of the league that we have got a such a good chance because he doesn't see he's not used to what happens when we go to party then get our belly stick out he's not used to these refereeing decisions because again Hovin just that more upbeatness because he's focused more on everything that's happened this season compared to what's happened in the last 30 years and I think that if we as a football club can focus on that more than we can focus on whatever's happened behind us and then what have we done this season then we are definitely we're going to be we're not out of this at all. It's not uh it isn't a case of just turning up to party to watch Celtic demolish us. Now I'm that's that's that's that's that's that's that that that was uh that was brilliantly said mate actually that was very very well said and I I agree with everything right when we can absolutely still win that game and and draw that game it's just after the will the officials allow it and I I just I I I just we just need we just need to make sure I I I know but this is the thing Andy Motherwell you know didn't give them a chance last night and they still conjured one up but you're right mate that was I we should just sign off on that mate that was proper that was proper Valkyrie's sound of the Valkyries right well if we're happy with that guys we have been uh we'll we'll catch that here um god knows what's going to happen god knows how it's gonna turn out hopefully everybody is has as good a weekend as possible these two will catch you hopefully next week um how the how that episode goes is going to be totally different I will try and ruin my kids' holiday if that is the case but we'll see how it goes but again thank you for everybody that has been listening this season we're not quite finished yet we have been Old Castle Rock you can get us on all your streaming sites the good ones and get us on the bad ones as well get us on Facebook get us on Instagram get us on XBlueSky and threads um and again we've some we've talked about mental health this has probably been some of the biggest mental health times being a hearts fan for stuff that's happened on the pitch if you're feeling down you're feeling low if it's if it's been an issue it has been for me over the last two or three weeks definitely been toiling at these games but just having a good circle of friends that I can talk about hearts with has definitely helped and if you're struggling with that reach out to us we all sit and have a chat to you about hearts if it's something else that you want to have an anonymous conversation with somebody that doesn't really know you but it would get something off your chest reach out as well because this will have this is definitely will happen it'll help you honestly and also if you've got somebody that you've not heard for a wee while just reach out and say it to them as well because they might be just waiting on that text just to are you okay and it that might just change how they're feeling too um but again as I said thank you very much for listening today thank you for the whole season uh so far hopefully it's going to be an amazing weekend in Gorgie and again it's a bye for me for me come on the heart of it over there you can do that's the way to pass a lot of