Julie Wheeler Explains Why Promoting Without Training Sets New Managers Up for Burnout

You promote your top performer, give them a new title, and expect the team to level up. Instead, sales dip, conflict rises, and your once-reliable employee looks exhausted and unsure. That whiplash is more common than most leaders admit, and it usually has one root cause: we reward technical excellence with a management role, then provide little to no leadership training.

Julie Wheeler, HR Business Partner at ClarityHR, joins me to unpack why companies make this mistake and what it costs in morale, retention, and results. We talk through the predictable traps new managers fall into, like avoiding hard conversations with former peers, micromanaging because it feels safe, and setting inconsistent expectations that quietly fuels resentment. We also cover the “tangible” side of being a supervisor, including why basic awareness of employment law matters. A manager doesn’t need to be an HR expert, but they must recognize red flags like ADA accommodation requests, harassment concerns, and FMLA-related issues, and know when to pull in help.

Then we get practical about solutions: what a true manager boot camp can include, how to layer soft skills like delegation, coaching, and conflict resolution on top of the basics, and why humility and reasonable vulnerability often separate strong managers from struggling ones. We also tackle the fear business owners voice out loud: what if we train them and they leave? The better risk to manage is what happens when we don’t.

If you have new supervisors, future leaders, or a management bench to build, listen, share with a fellow owner, and subscribe. If this helped, leave a review and tell us: what do you wish you’d learned before you became a manager?

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Transcript

Why Promotions Go Wrong

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever promoted someone to manager and then wondered how they went from your best employee to your worst employee? We're gonna talk about why that happens. Stay tuned. A couple of months ago, I posted something on LinkedIn that got a lot of attention. It said, promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible. And the response was incredible. And it didn't come from business owners. It came from the employees who had been promoted and just left hanging. So we see it again and again. Someone is amazing at their job, they're a great technician, a great salesperson, a great employee. So naturally they get promoted to management. But no one ever teaches them how to lead people. And suddenly they're responsible for hiring feedback, conflict, accountability, and they're trying to figure it out on the fly. And oftentimes they fail miserably. So today we're going to talk about why that happens and what businesses can do to alleviate that problem.

Why Companies Skip Leadership Prep

SPEAKER_01 1:07

So joining me again today is Julie Wheeler, HR business partner at ClarityHR. Julie works with businesses and business owners every day to help them build stronger teams and stronger leaders and guides business leaders on how to promote without failure. So, Julie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Chrissy. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited for you to be here. And we're going to talk about this. And I think it's a common pain point that we have within organizations that we work with. So let's start here. Why do companies often promote someone into leadership without actually preparing them to lead?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I think it's um expedient, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

We need somebody in the seat.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

We need somebody in the seat. I don't have time to do this anymore. I don't want to manage these people. And this is the best person I have in this department. So I'm just going to make them the manager. That's usually when you see it. Yeah. Um they they just don't quite think it's through. Yeah. They're not preparing for the eventual situation ahead of time and making sure somebody's trained to be a manager. So um it becomes a fast decision.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

And it's a decision that the rest of the group understands because it's usually the highest performer. So it's it makes sense. Um, but then that person gets in the role and they don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Do you think leaders are sometimes just too busy to train managers? Or they don't want to make the time?

SPEAKER_00 2:36

I think that they think they're too busy to train managers. Well said. Uh, I think that they um are leery to train managers. I think that they're nervous. They're not, they're not absolutely 100% confident in their ability to train the manager to be a manager. They're not sure what that person needs to know. What does somebody need to know in this role? And especially if it's a new role in the organization. If the leader's saying, I don't have time to manage these people anymore. It's all right. Just sit there in your office, they come to you, they complain, you give them some platitudes, and then they leave and it's all good.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I oh okay. So with that, I'm gonna ask you another question.

New Manager Failure Patterns

SPEAKER_01 3:19

What are some of the biggest challenges you see when someone gets promoted into management without leadership training? They just had the, you know, go give them some platitudes and it'll be fine.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, just stand there. So just stand there and look good. Um, I think it's several things happen. They don't know how to hold people accountable. There is a huge disconnect now because these are their coworkers, these are their friends.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Especially if they were like their work besties. And now you're managing your work besties. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

It's rough. That's a huge, huge hill to climb. Um, so they avoid hard conversations. They don't want to have a hard conversation. Uh, the easiest thing to do to spend your time is micromanage. How'd you do that? Why'd you do that? Why didn't you do it the way I do it? Let me show you how I do it. So I'm back to doing what I did before I was managing because that's my comfort zone, right? Um, I think that there are inconsistent expectations because they know the people, right? Well, that's okay. I know Sarah doesn't do well with this. So I just want you to do it over here, Margaret. You do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

And um, I'll let Sarah do these other things. It's inconsistent. If it's the same job, there should be the same expectations. And the better conversation is, you know, Sarah, I know this is this is an area you struggle in. Margaret, might you help Sarah with this? I know this is your you're this is your strongest area. You're so good at this. Might you help Margaret with this? But new managers don't understand that.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

They're not familiar enough with how to do that, how to avoid the conflict. Instead, they create conflict and then they become burned out and they say, never mind, I'm not doing this anymore. It's terrible. This is a horrible job. I don't ever want to manage people.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah, and then they go find another job and you lost an amazing performer. Absolutely. Yeah. One thing that I've seen in organizations, you know, the their lead salesperson. They promote their lead salesperson and then they wonder why all of a sudden sales are slumping. It's because you just took the person that could do all the work. Or you wonder why your lead salesperson who got you promo who got promoted to a sales manager just had a heart attack because they're trying to do all of the work. I've seen that as well. Have you seen it where like the you promote the person, but instead of managing the people or getting them to do the job, they're still doing the job themselves. And the business leader goes, Well, it's getting done, so I don't really care. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Absolutely. Because they don't know how to manage. They don't know what to do. They don't know when and how to ask the right questions. Right. So if, for instance, with me, if I'm concerned, have we reached out to this new client? Do we have an implementation schedule? Do we have follow-up on this? Is this, I save that. I avoid my desire in the heart in my heart to want to do what I want to do. Or to walk out and say, I just need to know if you did this. Because I know that drives people nuts. Yeah. And I have to trust them, right? So I wait until my team meeting. And if it doesn't come up naturally in conversation, I'll say, Oh, yeah. So when is this implementation scheduled? I want to put that on my calendar. Not a problem. Yeah. It's, it's so there are just subtle ways that new managers just don't know. Yeah. They're not familiar. They're not familiar with the soft skills. They're not familiar with the nuance. They're not familiar with the subliminal messages they're sending. They don't realize they're micromanaging. They don't realize that they're compensating for a deficiency here with a strength here. Yeah. They're not realizing what they're doing. And with some very basic management training, usually better served from outside the organization. Yeah. Um, you know, I I

Manager Basics And Legal Risks

SPEAKER_00 7:05

wouldn't even necessarily, and especially if it's a new management role that's never been there before, I wouldn't necessarily have that leader do that training.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Um, that leader is doing that training from way up here. And you you're putting a position in the middle for a reason. Yeah. So you really don't want that new person to be trying to do it from way up here. You really want them to come in. You want them to understand basic words that mean something, right? If somebody says, I went to the doctor and I need X, Y, Z, your new manager will say, Well, nobody else needs that. And turn around, walk away, and that's the end of the conversation because the employee is intimidated or doesn't the new manager doesn't know that that's an ADA accommodation request. Because the employee doesn't have to say, I need an ADA accommodation request for it to be a brick, bright red flashing light. Right. So, so some of those basic things, what is harassment, what is an ADA accommodation, what is uh Family Medical Leave Act, what what are some of these basic tenets of employment law that your managers all need to be aware of? Yes, and important because it keeps you from a lawsuit. Absolutely. So that's I I think of it as management boot camp. And you start with those really concrete things for the managers, right? And that helps them because now they they've got concrete stuff. Okay, now I'm a manager and I need to know this. Yes, and they can point to it. And then we subtly, slowly get into some of the more nuanced areas, right? The soft skills training, the the stay away, the the accountability training, the conflict resolution, conflict avoidance training. Yes. To help them manage through all the personalities that they're gonna find. Because not only do they need help with what they've got, yes, and getting over the hump of moving from being one of them to above them.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

To above them, yes, to now you're a leader.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Exactly. And then they got to go into recruiting and hiring, and they're gonna bring new personalities onto the team. And they have to deal with those new personalities and try and assimilate those people into their current team. So there's a that is a huge job. A management job is a huge, huge job. And I think many times leaders don't give it enough credit. Yeah, don't recognize just how hard it is to build a team and a strong team and a cohesive team that's always willing to work together and help each other. That's tough. Yeah. Learning basic rules is easy. It's it's managing the people and the personalities that can get really sticky. Um, and I think that that investing in your managers and giving them some tools in their toolkit to help them work through some of those things is critical to the success of your management

Humility And Vulnerability As Skills

SPEAKER_00 10:02

team.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

So let's talk a little bit about okay. You've touched on it a little bit already, but I kind of want to get a little bit more detail. You know, when someone becomes a manager for the first time, what skills do they actually need that they've probably never been taught?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

And what's the most important early on? What do you think for success?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Um, I think you have to learn. And I think of them as two things. Okay. I think you have to learn vulnerability and humility. And that's gonna that sounds really, really odd. I know. Um, but I think that you have to be willing to sit in front of your team and say, I have no damn idea. I have no clue, guys. I don't know. I can't help you. I don't know, I don't know the answer to that, but I'll find it. Yes, I will find it for you and I will get back to you. You have to be willing to say, I don't know. You have to be willing to say, can you show me how you're doing that? You have to be willing to coach, to mentor, to be um a solid guide to an employee. Um, and and always lead by example.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

And I will I will tell my team on any day of the week. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Yeah. I don't know. I've been doing this 25 years and I've never seen that one. Let's let's figure it out. That's a new one. That's a new one. Let's figure it out. And I think that that's part of the reason that they actually will follow me, will listen to me, will work for me and trust me. Because I'll admit when I don't know, I don't have to know everything. That's not my job. I do you you don't pay me to know everything.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

No. Do you think that's what separates strong managers from struggling ones is the willingness to say when they don't know?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

I think so. And to show vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Um, I think that that's really important. Um, I think that employees need to know you're human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Not they don't necessarily need to see you laying on the floor crying in the middle of the house. Absolutely not. But what does vulnerable what does reasonable vulnerability look like, Julie?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I I think it looks like, you know, that's a great question. I'd never considered that. Let's brainstorm that. Let's talk about that. What how do you think what what do you you you brought it up? So you must have thought about it. Help me understand where where that even came to your mind. Yeah. And then then how will that apply here? How can we make that work? Um, I think really again, listening, communicating, um, making respecting your employees, um, and and admitting I don't, I don't know something, or I've never considered that, or you know, that's a great idea. How can we implement that? Is you don't have to lay on the floor and cry. No. You just don't have to pretend like you know everything and you've thought of everything and and you always know the right way.

unknown 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Because we

How To Support New Managers Now

SPEAKER_00 13:07

don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

So if a business owner is listening right now and they're realizing that they may have promoted people without training them, they're they did it wrong. What can they start doing now to support those leaders?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I think there are a couple of things. I think a basic um kind of boot camp for new supervisors. There are some programs out there. I will I will be completely candid. I have had clients come to me and say, hey, I'm gonna promote this person, and I really think I need to give them some training. Can you recommend a good program? And I've gone out and done the searches, and it's very hard to find one that you can get when you need it. That's the key. That's the key. There may be one coming in six months, or there may be one on demand, but it's way out of your price range. Yeah. Um, or there may be one, but it's a three-day or a five-day session in California for an Ohio person and the employer can't afford it. So I think you really need to think about pulling in experts that have an idea. Um, I know many of our clients rely on us. Yes. They they absolutely do. They'll say, All right, we're gonna need you to be kind of on call for this manager for a while. Sit them down every time you're in the office and ask them what they're struggling with. Um, when I first went into one client's um organization, there was a manager there that was absolutely so thirsty. She was just dying for HR, which it made me feel so good because most people do not think of it that way. Rarely do we hear that. Rarely. And she absolutely, I was at their office at least once a week, and she would come in at least, I don't know, half hour, hour every week I was there, and she had her list of questions ready, and we talked through them and we went through all the scenarios that she'd encountered with her employees. She is now one of the strongest people managers that they have in that organization. And I'm so proud of that. Yeah, she just she makes me smile every time I see her. She's my golden child. Um, but you know, mentoring, yeah, coaching, find somebody to help that person, find somebody that they can talk to, somebody that you respect. Yes. Somebody that you not you, the business leader. No. No, someone else. Because you can say to somebody, get out of my office. And they're not really gonna think a whole lot of it. Yeah. Your manager can't do that. So it's gotta be somebody that you think does a good job as a manager, or somebody that you feel has the expertise to mentor and coach your new managers. They need to have somebody that they can call on. If possible, find a basic kind of a boot camp program, at least something that teaches basic employment law, so that when they hear, I fell and broke my foot and I can't get to the bathroom now, they know that's a problem. Your manager, it rings a bell. Now, they don't have to know what to do about it. They just need to know they need to call HR. They need to alert somebody that they've got an employee with an issue. But things that that they hear that they say, ooh, I'm not touching that. I need to call somebody in. Yeah. You they need that basic, very basic knowledge at minimum to be able to do their jobs properly and protect your organization, like you said, from lawsuits, from from EEOC complaints, from departmental labor complaints. Um, very, very important that they get that basic knowledge. And coaching and mentoring can only go so far. Some of it is book driven, and I by that I just mean tangible. Yeah. Um, and some of it is going to be some soft skills training. But it's it's I I just think of it as boot camp. All right, you're going into a new role. This is a whole different world. Buckle up, buck and butter butter. Buckle up, buttercraft. Yes. It's gonna be a ride, and here we go. Um, but they need to, they need that help. Yeah. They do, because otherwise an employee has a meltdown and they're just sitting there looking like a deer in the headlights, and they have no idea what to do. And it's not fair to put people in

The Real Cost Of Not Training

SPEAKER_00 17:28

that position.

unknown 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

So something I've heard in the past, and it's not often, but occasionally I will hear when someone is talking about training and development of their people, they're like, Well, I what if I train them and they leave? They have this fear around if I empower them and teach them how to be good at their job or good in leadership, then it automatically means they're going to leave them. How, because I know you've had to answer this question for people, we've had to deal with this with clients. How do you have that conversation with the business leader around why it is so important to develop your managers?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Well, the first thing I say is they're going to leave if you don't. So do you want to guarantee they're leaving or do you want to minimize the risk and build a stronger management force in your team? Yeah. Where do you want to go with this? It's your choice. Now, if they're training something tangible, like in our world, we all of our consultants are required to have HRCI certification. Yeah. So if we're going to sponsor that for an employee, they have a training agreement that they sign, they enter into. Um, and that ties them to the organization for a certain amount of time. And we can certainly help you put together a program like that if you're doing specific certifications or things that have a tangible dollar value. If it's soft skills or if it's just kind of a basic professional development training program, career pathing. What you really need to do is you need to have a formalized program of some sort that the employees see the value. They see you investing in them, right? It all comes down to you're providing them with respect, you're respecting them, you're showing them that you care, you're showing them that you have faith in them, you're willing to invest in them. And by doing that, they remain loyal. Yeah. You, you, if they leave, are they going to get that somewhere else? Are they going to have somebody that's willing to invest in them? Yeah. That's willing to take them from a production line position to a shift supervisor, to a plant manager, to a vice president of operations over the course of their career. Are they going to see that path anywhere else? Or are they just going to go back to being on the line because they don't have any hope here, so they might as well go there. If you show people a direction, if you show them room for growth, and there are there are different kinds of employees. There are your A's, and those are the people that that's what they want. Yes. Then you have your Bs. I personally love B's. I love A's and B's, and I love a good mix of A's and B's. Because if you have all A's, they'll kill each other. Yes. It's ugly. It's not pretty. It's not a fun environment. But if if you have your A's, you've identified them, and you show them a path to success, generally speaking, they will remain loyal to you.

unknown 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Sometimes, you know, every once in a while it's gonna, it's not, they won't. And that's a cost of doing business. Yeah. It just is.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

So be brave and be willing to train. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Grow your people, grow

A Practical New Manager Boot Camp

SPEAKER_00 20:38

your company.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

So, one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation today is because we have seen this issue come up so often with our clients that we decided to do something about it. You know, as you're talking about, there's no training out there that does this.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, I stuck my foot in it, didn't I? You did.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

You absolutely did. Because Clarity is working on launching a new manager boot camp designed specifically for those leaders who've recently been promoted or are preparing to step into management roles. So you want to talk a little bit more about what this program is designed to help those individuals learn.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Exactly what I've talked about today. Absolutely, exactly. Starting out with the basics, the very tangible things. That would be the first hour or two, moving on into conflict avoidance, conflict resolution, um how not to be a micromanager, how to delegate, what that means for you. Um just so so we're gonna go from tangible in the first modules through through kind of the legacy, through performance management, through how do I even conduct a PIP meeting, a performance improvement plan meeting? How do I do a disciplinary action meeting? How do I do a termination meeting? Um, people that and and I I do the terminations and we'll do role play. When we do the boot camp. When I do terminations, I always have the hiring manager in the room. And it sometimes it's two or three or four terminations. But then all of a sudden, I'll say, All right, do you need me to drive over to be with you for this? Nope. I got it. I got it.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Such a great feeling when you hear that.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

So you build confidence through experience. So I I um I envision it to be an interactive program when we can do it in person. Yeah. But I also envision an on-demand version that will be videos. Um and I'm sure that we will, you know, we will record uh some role playing to give to give people some feel for how do I handle it? Because inevitably the one that you think is gonna blow doesn't. Yeah. They say, okay, and turn around and walk out of the room. And the one that you think is gonna be easy is the one that all of a sudden is just a disaster. Where did this come from? So I I mean, I have been in termination meetings that were blow ups. I've been in termination meetings that the person thanked me. Um, it just you don't know what to expect, and there's no point in in staying up all night worrying about it. Um, but we're gonna help you through that.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

So those are some of the major challenges. So we'll take you the training. I'll actually start with the basics and then go through the employee life cycle. What do we do for recruiting? Yeah. What do we say in interviews? What don't we say in interviews? Um, how do we what do we base our our offers on? What do what are we looking for in a candidate? How do we frame a job description? And then move on to performance management, pips and display disciplinary actions and then separations. How do I accept a resignation? What do I say? What if it's somebody I love? What if it's somebody I can't lose? What what do I do? Yeah. To oh my gosh, I gotta let this person go.

unknown 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

So we I I see us moving through the employee life cycle after we cover basics as a boot camp. It's so exciting.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So as that product comes out, we'll be sure to link everything in the show notes and continue to communicate with our listeners. But our last question we always end with, and since again, you're a repeat guest, you know what it is already. What can a business owner do to get 1% better in their business today?

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Don't hang your best people out to dry. Please don't do it. You're taking your very best performers and you're putting them in a situation that is inevitably they are going to fail or they're going to burn out. One of the two things is going to happen. Set them up for success. Always set up your own place for success. But in this particular situation, find them a coach, find them a mentor, find them somebody that they can call. Whatever you need to do to make sure that they have help, that they're not feeling like they're left alone, that, you know, and they don't want to let you down. Yeah. So they're not going to come to you and say, this is a disaster. Yeah. I'm failing. I'm flailing like a fish out of water. I don't know what to do with this. They're not going to come to you. No. They're going to burn out and they're going to leave. So you need to provide them with support. You need to provide them with some basic training. You need to help them be successful. And

1% Better Takeaways And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 25:21

they'll be an even better employee than you could have imagined. So take something that I've seen happen way too many times as a failure and turn it into a complete success. And it's not that hard.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

No. Julie, thank you for your time today. Thank you. I appreciate being here. Yes. And I'll be back to wrap up. I want to take a moment to reflect on a few things I heard from Julie today. First, being great at your job doesn't automatically make you a great leader. Leadership requires a completely different set of skills, skills that most people are never formally taught. Second, when companies promote employees without giving them the tools to lead, they're often setting those employees up to struggle. And that struggle doesn't just affect the manager, it affects the entire team. Third, leadership development doesn't have to be complicated, but it does have to be intentional. When businesses invest in training their managers, they build stronger teams, better communication, and a healthier workplace. And finally, one of the most powerful things business owners can do is equip their leaders before problems start. So if you're listening and you have managers on your team or employees you hope to promote someday, it may be time to think about how you're preparing them to lead. So you can learn more about ClarityHR's new manager bootcamp and our HR support services at ClarityHR.com. And until next time, let's keep getting 1% better in our businesses.