Peter Geise Explains Why Revenue Is Up But Profit Is Missing

Your revenue can look “fine” and still leave you wondering why the business is not throwing off the profit it should. That frustration is usually a signal that something deeper is happening underneath the numbers. We sit down with Peter Geis, Akron Area President of Focus CFO, a fractional CFO leader and Lean Six Sigma Black Belt who has helped everyone from Fortune-scale teams to Main Street operators find the real drivers behind their results.

We get practical about what “root cause” actually means for small business finance. Peter explains why most owners do not have only a sales problem or only a finance problem, and why working in the business makes it hard to step back and see patterns. We also draw a clear line between accounting as history and CFO-level leadership as decision support: forecasting, cash planning, and translating data into next steps. If you have ever tried to Google your way through financial leadership, this conversation offers a better path.

From there, we connect Lean thinking to everyday operations. We talk process mapping, asking “why do we do it this way?”, and how small improvements stack up into real capacity over a year. Then we zoom out to the long game: cash flow management as the most common business leak, the risk of growth without working capital, and how repeatable systems raise transferable enterprise value so the company can scale beyond the owner.

If you want to get 1% better today, start by documenting your processes and naming ownership, then watch what becomes visible. Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a business owner who needs clarity, and leave a review so more leaders can find it.

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Transcript

Why Revenue Feels Too Low

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever looked at your revenue and thought, you know, we should be making more money than this? We're gonna talk about that. Stay tuned. Today's guest brings something I think a lot of business owners need more of right now, and that is context and clarity. I'm joined by Peter Geis, Akron Area president of Focus CFO. He's a fractional CFO leader. He's also a lean Six Sigma black belt and someone who spent decades helping businesses identify the underlying causes behind the challenges that they're facing. Peter has experience ranging from Fortune 100 companies all the way down to helping those main street businesses grow smarter and healthier financially. And what I really appreciate about Peter's perspective is that he doesn't just look at numbers, he looks at the systems, the leadership decisions, and the operational habits driving those numbers. So, Peter, thank you for being on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

So I'd love to start at the beginning.

From Fortune 500 To Main Street

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Can you tell us a little bit about your journey from, you know, Fortune 100 leadership into the world of helping small and mid-side businesses with focus CFO?

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Okay. Yeah. Well, I was born at a very young age. And then you list the world.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

The whole full history, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

No, I uh I started uh right out of school uh with a big Fortune 500 company here in the Akrono area, uh quite honestly, with things that I knew nothing about, products I knew nothing about, uh, and then made my wave on the uh I don't know, a trajectory that ended up sending me to Brazil. Wow. Uh I was wondering what did I do wrong with that? But uh that turned out to be a great experience. Uh and and I learned a lot about uh the uh doing business in a different country, particularly one with a with a challenging financial situation, uh for sure. Uh yeah, made my way from that, then we ended up selling our division uh to uh uh even a bigger company, a German company called Bayer or Bayer, uh the big aspirin company. I had nothing to do with that as well, and it was also in a business in a product area that I knew nothing about. So uh that's particularly leaders in companies like this, knowing being a product expert was not what they were hiring me for. So I was there to lead the businesses. Uh I had run that run that gamut and uh decided to leave the big corporate world when an opportunity came up to run a family-owned business up in Wisconsin. And that's that opened my eyes to a whole different perspective. I'm not dissing anything, big corporations like that, but it's different, as you know. No, I I'm not a founder of a business. Uh well, I guess you're kind of second gen, but it's it's a different and it's line of sight and really impactful of what your decisions are, both good and bad. And that can be that can be daunting for some, particularly if you're kind of shooting from the hip a lot of the times, which I wouldn't recommend. Uh so this this is what I've been done, and then decided to stop that uh work um several years ago and had an opportunity to join an organization that reached out to me to say, how would you like to help small and medium-sized businesses? I said, I've been doing that. Yeah. I said, Yeah, but this is with a bigger group and with uh with other colleagues. Um moved here back from Wisconsin to to uh Akron and uh it's best rest is history. It's it's been very meaningful. It's a very, very for-purpose business.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah. So I know that we've we've done a lot of networking, talking together, different types of business things together.

Finding Root Causes Beyond Symptoms

SPEAKER_01 3:36

You talk a lot about identifying those underlying causes for small businesses, what those business challenges are. So when an owner comes to you, I know sometimes they come to me and they say, We have an HR problem. I'm like, no, you really have something else. When they come to you and they say, We have a finance problem, yeah. How often is the real issue something completely different? Can you talk us about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Mostly well, and it's it's it's almost never only a sales issue. Yeah. It manifests itself because as you in the intro, you talked about your revenues down. Yeah. Or or your profits are down. Well, there's there's a why behind that, but there's usually something else going on, and usually multiple things going on. Some of it, many times there are personnel issues, and we'll just call it, and even personnel issues aren't necessarily an HR thing, but it can it can be. So uh almost always. That's why our our process, uh, the focus CFO process, which I'm I think is very good. It doesn't mean it's the only one, is we start with a discovery to find out. So what is going on? Uh and I may be able to help them, or we may be able to help them directly as a client, but many times we're we're not we're not the person you need to be talking to, at least not at this point. Okay. Which is why one of the things I enjoy having people like you is what we're calling referral partners, because I like to re I like to give, I like to refer out. That's equally it doesn't pay me anything, and we refuse to take referral things. Yeah. But it's if you're making an impact on that small business, that's my coin. That that's what I really want to do. And I know you're one of them. Um this is so this is the thing with with an ex with experience, I've made enough mistakes in businesses that I can recognize, and I'm pretty good as a diagnostician, this says, okay, I I see that sales are down. Yeah, there's there's some other things going on here. So getting to the root causes, I don't know that I always go through the five whys, which is, you know, that's how you're supposed to get to the to the real root cause. But but finding out what's really going on, and it's usually more complicated than than the one thing they say is coming up. It that's how it manifests itself. But what's what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Why do you think it's so hard sometimes for owners to see some of those issues themselves?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

I'm speculating here, and it could be a double things, but you've heard this term working in your business versus on your business. Yeah, absolutely. They've got their head so far down into the business that they're more worried about um uh it could be family dynamics, but it could be we gotta get this shipment out here. We I guess how are we gonna get more? Okay, take a step in. What are you doing? All customer work. What are we gonna do? Exactly. So instead of just trying to um and jump into it. I mean, I know I have a funny story about uh one the company I was uh the president of out in Wisconsin, one of the owners uh were not actively involved, but they were around, which is great. And I don't know, somebody I had one of the engineers looking in trying to fix such and such. I literally he he comes out and says, Why are we why are we fixing that? We've fixed that several several times before. When I said, Well, say that again, because you you apparently didn't fix it if you keep having to fix it again and again. So let's find the root cause. I don't know this is unique to business owners, but people tend to look at the output or the symptom instead of so what what's causing that and address it? I mean, I'm sure you've seen it in business too.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

So absolutely. I think it's important because I think business leaders oftentimes we're trying to solve for the significant symptoms when we should be instead of solving for the system or the true problem.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Or or will be facing this again instead of your really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah, you continue to repeat.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah. And and that that's all part of my my the lean training, which which I don't know if I'm a full practicer right now, but that's you got to get to the five Y's and find out what's really at the problem.

What A Fractional CFO Really Does

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Yeah. So I know a lot of business owners think they can't afford financial leadership, high value financial leadership until they're much larger. So why has the fractional CFO model become so valuable for growing businesses?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

I mean, even HR stuff like that. Yeah. It it I think it's catching on because when you're growing a small business and you need some horsepower. Yeah. In finance, you you know, you you make stuff, you sell stuff, and you manage the money. It's you the entrepreneurs typically inventor tinker, or they think, or they are, a really good sales market, growing the revenue. Yeah. Managing the money, not usually their strength.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Not usually the strength of a small business.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

You're still saddled with this 24-hour thing, and you say, but how much time am I going to use fiddling around trying to resolve my uh my financials or talking to the bank or looking how what whatever it is, financial, that's where they that's where that gets held up. So what if you could have somebody, and I mean everyone has different capabilities and strengths, but if I could just have this off of my plate with somebody that's really good, okay. And too many times people uh commingle accounting, which is which is important, but accounting is in the rearview mirror. That that reports what happened, which which is that's where the data comes from. So you got to get it right. But a CFO is sort of the partner or the co-pilot with with a business owner that says, so where am I going with this stuff? Yeah, how do I take this? So obviously you have to have data that's accurate and you believe in it, and then to help you make sense of going for it. That that's what a true CFO does. Fractionally, you you get that. And most of these businesses, you know, we're we're probably uh two million clients. There's some that are a hundred million, but uh they may it depends. But let's say 30 or 50 million, which is not chump change. That's a pretty that's a pretty good size business. You need you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna need some of those horsepower, but you don't need them full time. You really don't. Yeah. So you're gonna hire a and I wouldn't say we're just gonna get the best CFO we can get for the money. So now now you're going to the lowest pair. That's usually not a great great. You may luck out, but usually you can get so for a fractional, you can get somebody who's got a lot of experience, a lot of war wounds. Uh and you hopefully they've learned from that. And and two things for us, I think it's other fractionals as well. We're we're not there because we're wanting to get a promotion. Yeah. We're not there because we have to make more money to support everything. We're we're done with that. We're we're there solely for that, and we're not gonna be there. Uh we're not gonna be jerks about it. But but you're not doing it because we need the money.

unknown 10:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

We're doing it because we're gonna help in you, and we're not gonna tell you what we we you think you want to hear. We're gonna tell it to you straight. And we're not gonna be jerks, but we're gonna be telling it to you straight and saying this is how you can grow money. And many times, so if I'm referring, let's say, um to you guys, to Clarity, um, or either one. But but I've already vetted you because I am not going to introduce somebody who's who's a jerk. No. And so it's my credit, uh maybe I'll do it once, but never twice. And so that's that's another great thing of being a partner to a business owner that says, here's one, I think you need this help. And this is why. I mean, it's the same thing that so if you or somebody else is trying to convince them, but that's that's you're selling me. Okay, forget about the selling stuff. This is the a value to your business. This is gonna help your business run better. And you got to decide whether it's whether it's worth it to you. But most times you already know this is bringing value way beyond what it quote costs you. Yes. It should stop thinking of the cost. Business owners tend to be, if they aren't up here thinking about how am I growing my business and in and getting my transferable enterprise value higher, they're they're in, and I'm not criticizing, this is just you're in cost containment mode. You're focused on everything is an expense. Yeah. Well, things are only expensive, but they're not worth it.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

So it better be worth it. And we can help with that. In fact, we won't take them on unless I'm convinced it's worth it. Yeah. We'll say that it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Well, and what I appreciate about some of the things that I have learned from you is you have taught me to have a better understanding around the true value of what the business is, not just looking about it as, you know, this is what your revenue is, this is what your expenses are. It's about can you have do you have repeatable processes? Are you in your business all the time? Do you have people that are supporting you within your organization, whether it is full-time or fractionally, that are experts that can continue to help you see through the front of the windshield as opposed to the rearview mirror to be able to keep moving forward. And what I I love too about what we get to do with fractional, with what you do at Focus versus what we do at Clarity is we are able to be in the business. We're able to be good experts for the organization for a minimal amount of time. But the value that they're getting is so much stronger than what they would be doing if they were. I mean, heaven forbid they're they're Googling their HR questions or their their finance questions. We don't ever want them to do that, but they do. And so we help them through that too. But then also it's like being able to help them move forward, make help them see two, three, four steps down the road because they're still trying to look like right in front of them. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

No, that's exactly right. It's given a lot of and it it may apply to other functions, but particularly for HR, I think people get confused with so what is HR? It's it's a whole gamicious stuff. Oh, it's payroll. Okay, but it it's a lot more than that. Yeah. And about managing your workforce and going forward and what's the success. I mean, there's all there's all and it it overlaps with finance.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

It absolutely does. And so many times I see the fine finance and HR are lumped together because they're like people are payroll. And we're like, well, they are, but that's not all they are. Yeah, no, it's not. But we do, we have to we work together a lot between finance and and HR because you're dealing with the it's the monies of the people, but then it's also, you know, the motivation, the scaling. If you have an organization that's scaling quickly, you've got to be able to build those projections and how do we move forward? So I think that it's it's important that, you know, that HR and finance can work together and collaborate, but they are not enemies. I've been in organizations where it's clear that like that's been the the rub, and it's like, oh my gosh, like how do you gotta we gotta do like a hostage negotiation and transfer some of the Yeah, that's that's a dysfunction right there for sure. It absolutely

Lean Process Mapping For Fast Wins

SPEAKER_01 14:00

is. So let's talk a little bit about when you had your lean six sigma training, because that was I mean, moving back there. I think a lot of business owners hear the word lean and they assume it's really complicated.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

So it's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

So what's a lean principle that you think a small business owner could apply immediately to kind of reduce waste?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Well, and I think you even alluded to it before. The the biggest so it is waste. It's so I know high fish efficiency, but it's really driving out waste from processes. Okay. So even knowing what your process, and I would even say map it out. I mean, this this is the way we used to do this with some, you have a big sheet of paper or someplace to write it down, and you get with your team, it's better to be as a team and say, okay, how do we let's say I don't know, uh you so I'll use one of yours, performance management. Yeah. It's a process. It is. That's a process. So how do we do that? And usually it's circular and it can involve your compensation plan, all that stuff. So that's a whole process. Let's map it out. And how can we do it? For for training as well. That that's from a lean standpoint, knowing your processes and driving out waste or mood uh they talk. I mean, it's it's just really it's as simple as that. It's just really mapping out what what are your processes, and you have a bunch of them, but everything can probably go into it. Some are gonna be more important and impactful. So start with those.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah. One thing that we have is involve your people. We have an organization. We ask why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Well, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah. And I think that there's a lot of businesses, and I think you've probably seen this, they're carrying processes, they're carrying meetings, they're carrying habits that they don't know, they no longer serve where they are today.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

That's exactly right. That's exactly so. When you're mapping that out, usually you you put you're supposed to put, what do we do? And then you gotta have somebody maybe like you say, do we really do that? And well, no, actually it goes here and here and here. And then everyone stops for a second and goes, hmm, why do we why do we do that? Yeah. And that's where you start getting streamlined to to well then let's what if we instead of mapping this, what if we went straight here? Why are we just waiting for the true? So that's how you and it doesn't have to be earth shattering or quantum steps. This is the it's but one percent, just just little bits. This will go faster. Yeah. And uh and the other thing about lean is people say they're they're um, I mean this is human nature, looking for the big home run, which is great. Yeah, this is the thousands of singles that you're gonna be making things better and keep doing them. Well, they won't mount to anything. That only so movement, um, having something at your disposal that you use every single time, and I'm always taking you know five minutes to uh to go fight. It's only five minutes. Add up how many five minutes happen in a day and then in a year, and all of a sudden, oh, we can save a headcount. I mean, that happens that way. Yeah. Or how I'm going and looking for whatever it is. So is there a way you can do it? Because it's the the constraint of 24 hours a day or the that's what and oh, I wish I had more time. You don't get more time.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

That's what you get.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Adding the capacity in.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

And if you aren't producing something that somebody's willing to pay you for and going looking for tools, find a customer of yours that's willing to pay you for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

No one's gonna pay you for that. Or that we have to make it again. I mean, I put it in the manufacturing thing. So we went through the process and it was gone. Okay, we have to make it again. Uh that's that those costs go somewhere. Yes. Oh, well, our customers are paying. Really? Okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Maybe once, but they're really. No, they're not gonna for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

So that that that's where, yeah. Uh lean is it makes sense, it's just driving it, but knowing your process, truly knowing your process, and then updating it on some periodic basis, because that could be that serves as training. Yeah. That serves as, and but you got to get people involved when you kind of stand around and say, so somebody at some point's gonna say, So why do we do it that way? Yeah. Wouldn't it be better if we didn't, yeah, maybe it would. Well, maybe it would. So then you try it and say, okay, well, that's gonna save us something. Let's time it and see what it what it saves us. Yeah. And now you got com commitment from somebody that's thinking about that in efficiency. So it's even better for the culture.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Absolutely. So let's pivot a little bit, talk a little bit more about, you know, value long-term thinking. Because

Cash Flow Leaks And Enterprise Value

SPEAKER_01 18:06

I know that a lot of what you do at Focus is you're helping people think about, you know, not just surviving the next quarter, we're thinking long term. So what do you think are some of those hidden business leaks that reduce the value of a business over time? If you were talking to a small business owner today, well, you are, you're talking to a bunch of small business owners today.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

What are you going to tell them to kind of shore up those leaks?

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Well, the the the one the one that almost always surfaces is cash flow. So if you aren't in command of your cash flow, and and everyone says, well, let me let me let me check my balance. I I don't mean your cash balance in your bank, which would be good that that's not empty, but I'm saying going forward, uh how do you know you have enough, particularly if they're growing? Yeah, what's coming up? Um, and and harder if you're so a manufacturer or have high working capital, or but so there's a lot of cycling of money through this whole thing. If you don't have a command over how your cash flows, and usually there's a time between you sold it and spent the money, whether it was from inventory or not, on the stuff going out, and you're getting paid for this for a while. You hope in 30 days, maybe 45. If you're in the appliance industry, that's 180 days. Oh, so that that's a tough who's who's funding all of that stuff? Well, you are. Yes. And and if you if you if you aren't careful with that, you're growing reader. This is how businesses go bankrupt. Uh, or like I don't, I was gonna say worse than that, probably worse than that. Let's say you miss a couple, you think you have workforce problems? Miss a couple payrolls.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Oh, yeah. No, we don't get to do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Uh you better not do that because those people won't hang around. No. And and it's that's a lot of stress on a business owner as well. So that's that's you got to take the longer view as well. And it it's great to get the production out, or I'm keeping putting it in manufacturing, but whatever the service. Let's say it's great to be thinking about what are we doing here? You got to do like that, but you're the owner. Yeah. And you better be up here and say, okay, so where are we going? Whether it's with your personnel, yes. And how do so such and such is a is a young-looking 69, but 69 actually is closer to jettisoning out than starting. Yes. So how how what are you doing about that? What are you thinking about that? Or whatever. That's what I'm trying to put it in the HR version. Yeah, there's there's HR issues about this. Have a plan. And though these aren't things that are just today, we'll do it by tomorrow. You better be thinking for the long term, how do you want to do this? And I could I could tie that into even getting transferable enterprise value, which is what the business should be focused on, rather than no, we're just focusing on sales. No. Well, sales are good.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Repeatable systems.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

And and processes are important. Um profits are really good, but also and are you anyway, so be thinking about how do you grow transferable enterprise value and the things that will add to that. And you're right, one of them is the processes. Are you doing the same thing every day? That's also the the gateway to scaling the business. You know, people say I'm three million in sales now, but uh boy, I want to be 10. Excellent. Okay. Well, that's not gonna happen overnight. And if you just said all I need more is more sales, okay. You're probably gonna need something more than a little bit more than just more sales. Yeah. In fact, if you get and we've had some of those that they they get the 10 million and they have the same processes like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah. How do you provide service? How do you scale?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

That's exactly right. So that's it doesn't come naturally for well, it does for some business owners, but mostly they they're in it because we make this and then we ship this stuff. Absolutely. Great. That's but but you have an investable asset called a business. So how does that go? Is it just pulling their head out of the out of the inn?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

No, I like it. So, Peter, thank you for your time today. Last question that we're gonna we we ask all of our uh guests that are here. It's if someone wants to get one percent better in their business today, yeah, what should they be doing? What's the one thing they can do?

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah, I would I would so we talked about this. Um I I guess there's well, there's one thing. One thing, one percent better. Document your processes and and find out who does it. Because here here's it's a lot of the your owner dependence or tribal knowledge or lacking any financial help, any of those things. But if you map out how you get things done, that'll become evident that I don't have a good handle on all these things. If you process it, and that's that's the start of saying, so how do we do more of this and do it well? Wonderful. So I that's what I would do.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah. Peter, thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And I'll be back to wrap up. All right.

Final Takeaways And Share Request

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Here's what I hope people take away from my conversation with Peter today that great businesses are not built on guesswork. They're built on clear systems, and they're built by leaders who are willing to look beneath the surface instead of reacting to the symptoms, who are willing to invest in an expert, whether it's a full-time team member or a fractional expert, to help them continue to grow. Peter's perspective is such a good reminder that healthy businesses require financial visibility, growth requires operational discipline, and long-term value is built intentionally, not accidentally. Because when leaders understand the real drivers behind their businesses, they make better decisions, create healthier companies, and build something that can truly last. And if this episode has helped you think differently about financial leadership, I'd encourage you to share it. And like always, let's keep working on getting 1% better in our businesses every day.