42. I Believe, Help My Unbelief pt. 2

Ever set a bold goal only to watch your body reach for the old comfort? We pull back the curtain on why change feels like a tug-of-war, showing how the limbic system, dopamine, and attachment history shape cravings—and why that makes perfect sense. Rather than shaming the body or glorifying willpower, we map a kinder route to lasting transformation where faith and neuroscience meet.

We unpack the tension Paul names in Romans 7 and the invitation James offers to count trials as joy. Trials don’t create reactions; they reveal them, giving us the exact data we need to grow. Drawing on exposure and response principles, we explain how staying present in safe, intentional doses rewires the amygdala, builds steadfastness, and aligns long-term values with moment-by-moment choices. From fasting to the marshmallow test, from smoking and soda to social belonging, we explore how immediate relief competes with deeper hope—and how to train the heart without denying human need.

You’ll learn a five-step process to integrate body and belief: expect activation, notice impulses, resist the automatic escape, bring it to Jesus with honest prayer, and re-anchor in safety before moving forward. We also challenge the myth that trauma isn’t real or that spirituality should override biology, offering a shame-free approach where story, faith, and neurobiology work together. With vivid examples—including a climbing analogy that reframes “discipline” as integration—we show how the gospel functions like a harness: it doesn’t remove the climb, but it secures you while you practice new moves.

If this conversation helps you see your habits and hopes with fresh eyes, share it with a friend, subscribe for more story-informed episodes, and leave a review telling us which of the five steps you’ll try first. Your reflections help others find a gentler path to real change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Story Matters Podcast. I'm Ryan Baker.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

And I'm Emily Baker.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

We believe people grow and heal through understanding how our stories are rooted in God's redemptive story.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

We hope our conversations encourage you to engage your story and the world around you with a new lens.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

We're glad you're here.

What We Mean By Limbic System

SPEAKER_01 0:22

In our last episode, we started a conversation that we want to continue about making changes in our lives, making resolutions, thinking about how we want to handle Lent now that we're upon that season, or maybe New Year's resolutions. And something that we struggle with, but also people we work with, is really wanting to put the emphasis on a decision that is primarily in a logical part of our lives. Like, here's what I believe to be true, so I want to live this way. But we brought in one of our favorite verses last week, I believe helped my unbelief. And that is just a very honest cry of a father who brought his child to Jesus for healing and he admits doubt and yet he believes that Jesus has something to offer. So we're gonna lean in a little bit more towards a relationship that we would all have with doubt. And we're gonna use a term that I want you listeners to feel comfortable with as we say it. It's the limbic system. And if you're not familiar, we really unpacked it in our last episode. So just as a super quick recap, Ryan, how would you explain the limbic system that we're gonna refer to?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, and for our purposes, right? Like there is the anatomy in the brain made up of aspects like the amygdala, like fire alarm, the thalamus, the hypothalamus, the hippocampus. But the real thing we need to understand is it's subconscious, it's there scanning at all times for safety, and it seeks to keep us safe, to regulate us, to get us both moving when needed or calm when needed. And so I think one of the ways we want to approach it today is a little bit more like the heart. I don't want to get super esoteric or mystical, but we do believe in the soul, the eternal soul, right? Humans have soul and humans have a body. And I think a major question debated throughout the ages is how do those overlap? Well, when we get to the body, what modern counseling psychology is doing well is is reminding us that our bodies include what's often been called the second brain or the limbic system as it then moves into the body through the vagus nerve. We know the Old Testament has the kidney, it's always translated in the English as heart, but it's often kidneys or stomach, bowels. And so the point is we are a body that has all sorts of capacity, and we have a soul, and they overlap. I don't want to call it a Venn diagram, that's probably too simplistic. But right now, what we're thinking of around the limbic system is something that we might refer to as the heart, but yet not necessarily the soul. It's the part of me that I can't directly see, but a lot of how I live is stimulated from this place, from the limbic system or the heart. And again, not the same thing exactly, but you can get the picture. And a lot of how we grow then is really working on the depths of ourself. How do we shape the heart that is the deeper recesses of our being? How does that happen?

When Logic Conflicts With Desire

SPEAKER_01 3:17

And so a lot of us live with kind of an internal battle. We want one thing, we want another thing. And we see that obviously in Romans 7, I do what I don't want to do, and I don't do what I do want to do. And I think to summarize our last episode and then to now lean into it more, is that most of the behaviors that we're trying to change actually make perfect sense to our limbic system. So we've got a limbic system saying, I desire, I have memory, I have long-term memory around this, but our more cognitive part of our brain is saying, but I believe this to be true. So I want this goal to apply to my life. And then what exactly is happening in our body or our mentality when we fail at our resolutions or we fail at our goals? What does that integration look like?

Conflicting Laws And Fitting In

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, we did an episode on triggers last season. I think that's super relevant to this conversation. The idea being if the rational brain knows the danger is past or it's not even a danger, but the limbic system is still triggered, it's activated. Well, that happens in and certainly in large scale or pathological ways, like like PDSD, but also when you come to just everyday places where, for example, we've set a goal. I'm not going to eat some kind of a food. And then you smell it or you see it or someone's enjoying it. And what you find is internally there's a drive. Like, I want to have that. And yet your logic brain is going, wait, remember we had this thing? We did, we're not sticking to this. And so we have this battle. Now that's not exactly the same thing as the trigger, but I think what we're trying to come at this with is to say, yeah, what what's going on internally? And how do we come at these places? How do we grow in these places? And one of the things you just mentioned this, that what seems to not make any sense to my logic brain, like, why would I drink that soda? You know, makes perfect sense to my limbic brain.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, you see that a lot with smoking. It's like, doesn't the world know how bad that is for you? And why are there still smokers? And why do some of us still crave, you know, nicotine? And and may I say this may be a little bit off to let me know. But as you were talking, I thought about all of us have been in that junior high age where there's like the laws of staying in your tribe. And you mentioned that funny story about hating peg genes and converse, but then all of a sudden you decided you did like it because it was a way of fitting in. And we all have kind of laws in our brain as to how we can stay safe in society, but then we're not under the law. And yet I think we have multiple conflicting laws going on. Like part of my brain says, Okay, here's the law of what I want to eat and drink to stay healthy. But then our limbic system is like, but here's the law of how you stay feeling soothed and comforted.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

And yeah, this may be we may be getting into the weeds, but we are always under the law in the sense that we're under something. I think what we learn in Paul is I want to follow God, my heavenly father, who loves me fully and completely and is not waiting to see how I perform. That's the one I want. You know, that's the law we want. But what happens is we can't see him. I can see the look you just gave me, whether it's a good look if I'm dressed a certain way, or when you come into my home and you delight in how I've decorated it, those are things I can see. So I can start performing for those laws. And we may be getting off there, but one of the things that I think that's exactly what I was saying.

Dopamine, Attachment, And Cravings

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Like we find ourselves saying we believe certain laws and certain virtues, and then we end up living by very different ones. And I think that's what we're trying to lean into is it's because we have a limbic system.

The Marshmallow Test And Hope

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah, so dopamine, right? So again, with attachment theory, we are aware that an infant has incredible spikes of dopamine when the mother makes loving eye contact and they have that connection. Then we also know that in the absence of that, oftentimes the anatomy of the dopamine receptor sites are such that a person later in life may be choosing all sorts of ways to try to find dopamine. And so, in other words, we can often make decisions like I mentioned the soda earlier, you mentioned cigarettes, whatever it is, the immediacy of the feeling has a mothering effect, but yet we might say, hey, but long term, this isn't what we want. This isn't in line with our value. Let me give the example of the marshmallow test. I'm sure most of our listeners have heard this, you know, and I think it was Stanford. If not, you always say Stanford because that's like Stanford they, but they did this test where um they put these toddlers in a room.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

And marshmallows nowadays would be like, give me like no, we just bought a package because Bonnie's obsessed with them.

Fasting, Triggers, And Safety

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Okay, perfect. And so they did this leaving the room. I'll be back at some point. And if you haven't eaten that marshmallow, you'll get another marshmallow. So what's the value? The value is I want two marshmallows, who doesn't? And yet many of those children would eat the first marshmallow, and and quite a few did not eat that and waited for the second one. The point is both want dopamine, both want the taste, but somehow one group is able to withstand the eating of the marshmallow for something better. And if you really broaden that out, that's really what scripture is teaching. Like, think about the beatitudes for the yours is the kingdom, for yours is the earth. Like, we're longing to join in with Jesus in heaven and have everything the delayed gratification of those promises. So the yeah, the Bible is not just saying, Hey, be stoic, do hard things, life's awful. What I what we're getting at then is okay, so here we are in a situation, and our limbic system is like, hey, you're in danger. Like, you need to do this. Like, if you've ever tried fasting, it starts to fire. Your body starts to, you know, something's telling you, I need to eat. What are you thinking? This is crazy. Like, you know, all these like things are gonna come at you. And yet we would also say we can agree with the idea that fasting over the centuries has been, whether it's food or a particular item of some kind, is a way to strengthen and hone our hunger for Jesus, for the spirit, and for the greater things.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

So, in everything you just said, I keep hearing the big word why. Why, if an adult needs a hit of dopamine? They've made a goal, they're not gonna do this, they're not gonna do that, but then their body starts screaming, yes, ooh, we're gonna go ahead and go smoke that cigarette or we're gonna go have that glass of wine, even though you've said you're not going to. You and I are pretty passionate for asking the question, why? What is it in your story and your body that's at war with this cognitive decision that you've made? Do we ever ask why? What is it?

Asking Why Your Body Protests

Trials As The Gym For The Heart

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, and in the world of counseling, we've said this before, you hear the phrase do the work, and then yet you get into the realm of the gospel, and it's like, oh, we don't do work, you know, we do faith. But I think we know that faith takes work, right? It takes absolute effort to live by our faith, yet that does not save us, but it does sanctify us, it grows us, it heals us, it improves our lives, our neurobiology, our habits. And so a verse that I want to read that just has haunted many people and maybe me at times from James 1, I want to maybe see it in a fresh light, is where James says, Count it all joy, my brothers and sisters, when you meet trials of all kinds or various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness, and let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. And I think a typical reading of that might be, okay, so in the 80 years I live on earth or whatever, I may face four of those, these awful trials. And I guess when they come, I'm gonna try to have joy. But I really think what James is saying very clearly is once we're in Christ, you know, you are a child of God, we're trying to grow. And the question is, where does that take place? And where it takes place is with trials. We believe something, we've read the Bible, we've heard a sermon, we stuck whatever, and then we step into a situation where we're challenged. If we could define trial simply, it's an outer stimulus is coming at you that is challenging what you believe to be true, meaning for you to act according to your belief right now is being tested. And your options are to give in and go one way or to hold strong and go the other way. So it's a very simple definition. But what James is teaching and what's so important is facing those is something we should have joy because that's really the gymnasium of the heart. These trials are not what's actually creating our internal reactions, they're revealing them and they're showing us oh, this is the area of work I need to engage. This is the part of me right now or currently that needs to be tended to.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Okay, you just said something really important, and I've heard you say it in other ways, but I'm gonna say again, trials don't create our inner reactions, they reveal them. And so that's why we take joy in them. I love what you just said, and it feels like I could almost rephrase that verse that we've probably memorized, but we struggle with it. But consider it joy when your old patterned reactions are revealed so that you can grow out of them.

Exposure, ERP, And Steadfastness

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, grow out, or I would even maybe tighten it by saying develop a new neuropathway, a new response pattern. You know, it's interesting, James says, for you know that the testing of your faith, what he in other words, that's a synonymous verse. You know, consider all joy when you face trials of various kinds. Okay, for you know that aka the testing of your faith, produces steadfastness. So, in other words, the way, and this is what psychology would talk about the limbic system. Uh, you'll hear uh the term exposure therapy we've talked about. The more modern phrase is exposure and response prevention therapy, ERP. But the point is getting into a situation of a test and sitting in it, we've talked about staying with it, following what you believe to be true, staying there, is building up a for like fortifying your system, your soul, your heart, all these things, and our body. They're sinking together to where what we believe to be true at our depths and how we behave are starting to integrate, but it's hard, it's painful.

Attachment, Fear, And Shame-Free Work

SPEAKER_01 13:33

That's so good. I almost hear you saying steadfastness is like an active integration, it's the fruit of our integration. The reactions that we're talking about, I mean, just think about these things in your own life. Our attachment patterns, our fear responses, our control strategies, and our learned survival behaviors. These are limbic system circuitry that is interwoven into our neurobiology that we cannot ignore. Our attachment, our fear, our control, these behaviors, if we can understand the why and our own story and what we hold in our body, when these tests and trials come and our reactions show up, instead of shaming ourselves and being mad at ourselves for having these reactions, we can pause and go, Whoa, I need to get integrated here. I need to take what my body holds to be true with what God's telling me to be true and right and integrate them. So, in essence, this exposure is not condemnation, it's an invitation to find out the information of your body so that you can bring together. And that's why the work we do, we always are saying to clients, this is a shame-free zone. This is not the place of judgment, this is the place of curiosity, so that you can learn why is this behavior or reaction coming up? Why am I responding in these ways? Is it my attachment? Is it fear-based? Because that's where real change will come.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, and I don't know if we'll ever do an episode on Romans seven and eight, but that's sort of a place I live. I walk with clients through.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

I think we've mentioned Romans seven and eight in almost every episode.

Trauma, Romans 7–8, And Healing

Wisdom In Doubt And Double-Mindedness

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Which is perfect, so I can do it again. But what I'm just drawn to is when Paul says, Wretched man that I am, you know, he's been wrestling with the tenth commandment, you know, thou shalt not covet. That's his example. And he says, Wretched man that I am, who will rescue me from this body of death. We hear wretched and think he's saying, Sinful man that I am. I'm a sinner. He is saying that, but he's also saying I'm tormented. And the torment for him is that he's trying to remove any hint of the fallen nature. And so when he says, Who will rescue me, thanks be to God in Christ Jesus, so that I find in my mind I follow the law of Christ, but in my flesh or my body, I follow the law of sin and death. What he's becoming aware of is we have these natures. And Christians, we know that within our bodies we have all sorts of remnants of the fall. And that's more of the religious language and accurate language. But I do think it's also interesting that as we've studied how attachment works, we study how story works, how trauma works. Isn't it fascinating that you find, oh, it's when I've been harmed that our bodies are developing? Like the reason our limbic systems are the way they are is by and large because of the traumas we've faced. And then our bodies are doing what they do because of the fall, and they're trying to fix it. They're trying to solve the problem, you know, run when that noise happens, when you see that facial expression, fight or freeze. And so the point is all of these things are within, but Jesus says, I'm coming to heal you through the spirit, and he shows up, and now we have joy because it's gonna be painful, there will be blood, but to name man, this is an area I'm struggling. I want to run, but I feel like I'm supposed to like stay or move forward.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Wait, can I interrupt you real quick? Yeah, listener, if you have experienced one of your ministry leaders, pastor, Bible study leaders that has basically communicated that they don't think trauma's real or it's not really a thing, I want you to re-listen to what Ryan just said in the past three minutes because that was amazing. And I kept thinking, how is it that people that claim to have wisdom in the scriptures are so foolish in the way that they're approaching the human body? We have long-term memory. We are wired in our childhood. Why do we think we can just poo the idea of trying to do it?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

So why why would yeah, exactly? And if you want just a quick synopsis of why story matters, it's because the day you became a Christian, whenever that was, for some of us we know a date, and for others we don't, but we know we are. Your neurobiology didn't get erased. And so those harms are still in you. And it's the person who denies that that's the most dangerous person to be around.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Amen.

Free Solo, Fear, And Rewiring

Discipline Versus Integration

SPEAKER_00 17:56

So we're coming to this concept of, and it's not going to be concluded in this episode, but this idea of being formed when we are facing these trials that create in us one desire that goes against our faith to run or whatever, and yet we pray, we stay, we'll get practical in a little bit with what to do. But sometimes in those moments, we really may lack faith. Like, does this really mean this? You know, almost hear like the serpent's voice, like you're sitting there, you have the marshmallow, it seems like it's been an eternity, and you think, did they really say that if I eat this marshmallow, I won't get the other marshmallow? So you're up against kind of a belief system, so to speak. And one of the things about James One is so many times people try to act like it's all these little proverbial statements that don't flow, but it flows beautifully. Listen to what he says next. If any of you lacks wisdom, in other words, here's a trial. You have faith that says go one direction, but you feel this need to do something else. There are going to be times where we're like, are we sure? Or is this really what the law is saying? Is this what the scriptures mean? Is this what Jesus is teaching? And he says, pray for wisdom. And essentially what he's saying there is, name, name it, cry out to God, I need help and believe that God's truth is the greatest thing there is. Frederick Biekner has this beautiful quote, I think it's in the sacred journey. When Jesus says, Whoever finds his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. This is Biekner. He's not saying this is a way you ought to learn to live. But rather, what Jesus is saying in that is, let me explain to you how the world actually works. This is truth. I'm here to teach you the way I created all things. So when we come up against that with our impulses, our limbic responses, sometimes we do have to pray and cry out for wisdom. And what James is teaching there is it's not that once we do that, it'll be easier, but we will have more conviction and we'll still have to stay steady. But what he says about the person who doesn't do that is they are double-minded. And so often what'll happen is we will operate one way limbically and another way in our cortexial brain, our thinking brain, and we'll fool ourselves. This is hypocrisy. We fool ourselves, we fool others. Sometimes we don't even know we're doing it, and so we're double-minded. And we want to dive into that further later.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

So the antidote to being double-minded is actually being like the man who says, I believe, help my unbelief. So we don't suppress our doubt or our activation, and we don't indulge in that doubt or activation. So I think that's key. We stay present in it and we cry out to the Lord for help, and God's truth will set us free, but it takes our truth of our limbic system up against our logical brain and our faith. It takes the truth of that to be admitted.

Safety In The Gospel Harness

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Can I try to give just a quick illustration of what we're talking about today? Yeah. I don't like heights. I don't think you do either. I hate that. I mean, most don't. So the other day, you know, we we watched, or I did, you wouldn't watch Alex, I don't even know, Honnold. Anyway, Alex the climber, solo climber. He climbed the what now I think is the fourth tallest skyscraper in the world, maybe. Uh used to be the first in Taipei. And he did it pretty fast, like an hour and something.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

My palms are literally sweating, as you just said his name.

Five Steps Toward Integration

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, my knees are weak. Just case. Yeah. And so after watching that, I thought, okay, I'm gonna watch his documentary, Free Solo. So my son and I sat down to watch that, and he's climbing the face of Al Capitan in Yellowstone. And what I've come to learn since then, by the way, is that climbing this Taipei skyscraper for these free solo people, one person estimated tens of thousands, maybe, who could do it. Climbing Al Capitan is like no one but this one guy. Like, this is like the craziest climb of all time. But here's the point: they do an MRI on. Know he's in the MRI machine, they're showing images that would typically create some fear. I remember they showed one or two on this thing, like a boat in the middle of high waves. And most people seeing that, even though they're safe, their amygdala will begin to react. And not Alex's. And so there was this kind of discussion, and I've heard him talk about it outside of the actual documentary later. But you know, it's like a chicken or the egg. Is he someone who just doesn't have fear? So he can do this. By the way, he does have some traits that maybe make that seem plausible. But what he says, and I think it's super fascinating, is he says, I I've climbed so long, so hard. He even climbed the Taipei structure with it with the rope on many, many times before the one free solo. And his point is the number of times I've faced these situations has helped my limbic system, his amygdala to calm. Another way of saying it, if you remember our prior conversation, is his hippocampus, that's the long-term memory, is saying, I get this. We know what you're doing, we know how to make this move. We've done this a million times before, which calms the amygdala down. And so to me, that's a really cool illustration of you face trials, and athletes do this all the time. Uh, you put yourself in hard situations. That's a way to train military. You know, so many people use this. And I think Christians, we've really lost it a little bit. Like, we really try to shelter ourselves and think, well, that triggers me. I'm not going near that. And I do think we can regain and recapture what James says that, oh, it's okay to feel the stress. It's okay to feel anxious, it's okay when depression comes, it's okay when all sorts of emotions come. That does not mean I'm failing. In fact, as you said a minute ago, it reveals areas that I need healing, I need growth. And so we can actually move toward these things carefully, kindly in the Lord and find ourselves, our amygdalas actually being rewired and changing to where maybe our limbic system, our amygdala won't fire at the slightest provocation.

Micro-Exposure, Kindness, And Formation

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Okay, so I'm gonna be like the voice of someone that I just mentioned earlier that doesn't really believe in the limbic system or trauma. The Apostle Paul talks about training as an athlete, beating his body. So there's quite a lot of Christian leaders that would say, ha, see, that's proof. This climber guy pushed through, did the disciplines, and he overrode his limbic system. So now he can climb without fear. So see, you can do these disciplines of the Christian faith, and then you won't desire it anymore. And I think there's a very important distinction we want to make that your story illustrates that there's not a suppression of fear. It's actually when the trial hits, like James one talked about, it's actually recognizing the activation, recognizing that the body, his body, the climber, probably did feel fear at first. That's why he was roped in. Right. So he then noticed his impulse, noticed the fear, but he didn't escape it. He didn't stop. He pushed through that, but he's integrating his limbic system with his goals, his desires, like meaning his his resolutions. I want to be this, which is what the apostle Paul's talking about. But I want to make sure we don't ever sound like we're saying, go do these disciplines, go do something in high repetition, and you'll override your limbic system. Instead, you are reshaping your neurobiology, your limbic system, and it's integrating. Does that difference make sense?

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yes, it makes sense. And I want to share kind of something that happened this very morning as I was waking. I was having a nightmare. As you were waking? I was waking up, I was having a nightmare. Well, first of all, let me set this stage. What you're saying, a person could say that sounds beautiful, but where does Christianity play into that? If everybody can just face trials and stuff, let's remember, first of all, that Alex has a unique gifting that we don't have about climbing and the resources to be harnessed in a million times before the time he does free solo. So to apply that to a Christian faith, what James is teaching and again other places in the scripture, but he says it's the testing of your faith. So what that means is we have the spirit, we are safe. And we talk about safety a lot in this work. And what happens often is we don't feel safe and things start going awry. And so one of the goals is to learn to feel safe because we are, right? How many times in the Psalms is David saying, Lord, you are my refuge, my very present help? You know, we talk about Psalm 27, the house of the Lord is safety, from whence he can gaze upon the beauty and inquire in the temple. If you read that psalm, he's in the midst of fighting, it's all around him. And so I was laying in bed this morning, waking up, and I it was that moment between dream and like half sleep kind of thing. And I was on top of that building or a building, and I was I felt okay, but freaked out. And I realized, and I was in flip-flops and I had my iPhone, so that made it harder. But I realized I was supposed to climb down, and I just was gripped with fear, like literally freeze. And I don't know how that happened, but all of a sudden there was this image of like a team or a person, like a group, maybe attaching a harness to me. So the very command to climb down, which was so haunting, and I didn't want to do it, and I just I was literally in tears and freezing. I now have this harness that I could kind of just repel down, but the request was to climb down. And I remember feeling just so safe. And I think that's the gospel, right? Like you are you are immortal, you have been redeemed. All of the things that this world tries to throw at you and the law of sin and death trying to tell you, these trials are trying to warn you hey, you follow this path, you won't be liked, or this will happen, or that. What your faith is saying is you're safe. And so where we grow is when, based on our belief that we're safe, even if I don't feel the harness, even if I want to sometimes doubt, will it really hold my weight, is I can take these risks, and that actually rewires and heals many of these areas of our limbic system that are often what create anxiety and stress.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Well, that dream's amazing because I felt it with you as you described the safety that came over your body. Now the task at hand didn't feel fearful and gripping. So anything at hand, which is ironic that the verse in Philippians about, you know, do not be anxious, the Lord is at hand. It's such a beautiful picture of we don't have to fear that we can't do something. We can. We've got the rope, the gospel. Yeah. So I just going back to what you said, we do the work. And that can be an interesting phrase because you didn't do the work to have that group show up and put the harness on you. That's the gospel. So we don't do the work in that. But yet, doing the work is paying attention to our fear, paying attention in these trials to what comes up, the old reactions. And it's not abandoning ourselves when we're activated, but it's actually interacting with those parts of us that are fearful or indulgent or craving. So I'm just gonna give the five practical steps that we would say is integration, not abandoning your limbic system. Number one, when the trial hits, you're gonna be activated and you're simply gonna pay attention to that. Number two, notice your body and your impulses. And again, no shame, no judgment. You're just noticing. And then number three, you're gonna resist the immediate escape that you would have maybe not even noticed before. You're gonna resist that. Number four, bring it into awareness with Christ. Cry out to him, say, I believe, help my unbelief. And then number five, just bring yourself back into safety through the promises that you know about Jesus and about his love for you, and know that you can move forward with that rope that you just described, Ryan, and from your dream. Whatever the task is, it is possible because you've got that safety and there's a lot of freedom in that. And there's a lot of maturity that comes when we learn to remain with Christ in our reactions.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

That is so well said. And if I could just add a thought with that, that in some of these areas that we're discussing, there needs to be kindness. It may be just micro exposures to things, it may just be a little bit more and a little bit more. You know, in Hebrews 12, he says, throw off every weight and sin. Well, I'm not encouraging you to continue in sin, but there are weights that we want to throw off that we don't just throw off in one quick swoop. We have to go carefully in Christ, move toward them. And there's kindness in that. And I think the goal here, listeners, would be to just hold space for that. So often in this arena, the mindset is if anything triggers, if anything's unsettling, just run from it, go somewhere else, you know, get rid of that out of your life. And that's not the biblical truth. Rather, it's to say, actually, in Christ, we move toward these things. And a lot of what we call spiritual disciplines, you can call them the means of grace, are our ways of doing this and sort of practice so that when the real intensities hit, the real trials are coming, we have something of fortitude built up because our limbic systems and our bodies have been trained. So that's a major part of the work here.

Listener Q&A And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 31:16

So the hidden places become healed, not by beating our bodies in a way of ignoring our activations, but just by staying and asking the Lord to enter that space. Thanks again for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. If you have any questions or thoughts about the topics today, we'd love to hear from you. We can be reached through our website, emails, and social media. Just go to Story Matters Initiative. If you're interested in doing individual or group work, we'd love to discuss that with you as well.