S02E04 - with Kelli Valade

In this episode, we dig into leading through disruption and why culture sets the ceiling for results. We talk about finding common ground in uncertain times, creating safe spaces for honest conversation, and how people first decisions show up when it matters most. We also look at mergers and acquisitions, keeping brand identities intact, and what it takes to unite teams without flattening what makes them unique.

You will hear real examples from the pandemic, a hurricane response that mobilized a community, and the ongoing “scorecard” leaders carry. We explore resilience for mid-career professionals, accountability that ladders to shared KPIs, and the reality of impostor syndrome. The throughline is simple. Great leadership is a daily practice of clarity, care, and grit.

Topics: disruption, culture, safe spaces, M&A integration, resilience, accountability, impostor syndrome, C-suite responsibility, parenting parallels, perseverance.

www.jamespogue.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:04

All right, so um I'm glad we had time to get together and chat here in the the palatial studios in uh in Swartinburg, South Carolina. And so um spending some time with you is always good, but this time we get a chance to talk a little bit about leadership, uh, organizational leadership, some of the wonders of it, and perhaps some of the challenges there. And so the first question I had that I wanted to throw out to you is around uh how leaders lead in the case of disruption. How they they struggle through, they push through, but the best of the leaders, the great leaders, the elite leaders, are able to do it in such a way that it brings their teams together, regardless as to what the disruption may be. And of course, me all we all may try to be perfect, but you know, it doesn't always work in the best kinds of ways. So, for example, one uh disruption could be bringing in a new CEO, you've had some experience with that. Bring in new local leaders, you've had some experience with that. Or mergers and acquisitions that you've had some experience with. So I'll start just with uh what do you think about that as a context for the idea of when those things happen, leadership can help to bring people together?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10

I think um it's a great question, and it's great to be here with you. So thank you for thank you for doing this. We uh I think have no shortage, there's no shortage of disruptions. So pick one if you want to pick the pandemic or the aftermath of the pandemic or what's going on today that feels almost pandemic-like at times because of the uncertainty. It's it's almost comical that we're actually talking about the certainty that existed through the pandemic, but there was.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

As crazy as that is, I'm not glorifying it, but there was certainty in it, and that everybody's going through the same thing. And right now, with what's happening, it's incredibly difficult. So I would say that today leading is about there's no normal. Leading is about leading in times of almost continuous disruption in one form or another. And you can see it all throughout the industry, you can see it in restaurants and retail and other industries, but in restaurants right now, as I read and look at what happens every day, there's a new story of either someone succeeding or someone not, or some company succeeding and one not almost equally daily, and how people are really trying to grapple with and deal with all of the noise, right? So um so yes, I've been a part I've come in to an organization. I came into an organization as a CEO at the tail end of what everyone thought would be the tail end of the pandemic, and it wasn't. We were still knee deep in it. Um I think you can with something like that, because there was a common, and I think this would be the answer, you find what's common, you find the common ground, and you find what people need to be pulled together and that will unite them, right? And in the case of the pandemic, what very clearly became what pulled everybody together was this idea of survival. Not not only survival as a company, but keeping everyone safe. Yes. First and foremost, keeping everyone safe. So you just do a Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it became very clear. What was on the bottom was what mattered food safety, security, health, and protecting people that way. And so that again, not to glorify it, but that became what was common. And I think no matter what the assignment or what the disruption, look for what's common in everybody. Is it what what's the common um what's the common need? Um, what's the common emotion, you know? Is it we are calming people in completely uncertain times? Is it fear? Is it so how do you overcome what's most probably happening for most everybody? And then bring people together under that unity. The other thing I think I did learn leading during the pandemic was, and as a result, now people want a leader who will create safe spaces for them to say what they're worried about. And when you could put a name to that or you can understand that for an individual, you're probably understanding it for anyone willing, one person willing to tell you, there's probably 10 more thinking the same thing. Yeah. And so you can use that to bridge this, what's really kind of going on under the surface, and get to what would bring everybody together in that moment. Um, mergers, you know, that acquisition.

SPEAKER_00: 4:02

So just before you move on to the mergers, it sounds like you're talking about, you talk about the pandemic almost like it's it was this forced executive MBA in leadership, right? That that when you look backwards, you had three, four, five years of ups and downs and had to learn and find the common ground. If there wasn't a common ground, we're gonna have to identify it, we're gonna have to name it, and then we can align to it and push forward. I mean, as you're as you're talking, I'm feeling like there is, I mean, it's it's a bit um maybe too objective, a bit too rational, because there's so many terrible things that happened there, but there was a ton of learning that happened for leaders, and some leaders didn't quite, you know, cross all the T's or down all the I's and they found that they had significant gaps.

SPEAKER_01: 4:41

I think if you didn't have it to begin with, or or your culture didn't have it in them to begin with, uh, then it was hard to figure out in the moment how to do the right thing or do people did what was natural in their organizations, the great cultures. And at that point, you know, at one part of the pandemic, I was with black box intelligence, so I was coaching other CEOs, working with other CEOs, and and educating them on what I could see through the data. And what I watched play out was the really strong cultures, the really strong CEOs, the people first CEOs led that same way, and they led with their hearts and yet were maniacally focused on getting to the other side. You know, so you can't do it if it's not there to begin with. Those were the those great companies were the ones that said, Well, I may have to furlough my employees, but they're all gonna have a meal here every day if they want, and their families can come in. So if the restaurant is open at all, I'll welcome those families in. Not everybody did that, but the really great ones stayed true to who they are. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:37

And would you say that the that those who did well, it was because of who the leader was? It was their core, and or was it the core of the organization's systems and values? Was it 50-50?

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

Um I'd say it depends. Depends. But you know, how much of the organization becomes the shadow of that leader? Yeah. How much um how much was the organization being set up like I mean, a great leader will take all the good stuff too, right? If it's not within that leader. So I think, yeah, 50-50, or um, you know, the great leader comes and joins the assignment, takes the assignment because they know what they're getting into and they know they've got a great culture. Um, I've always believed you can't go against the grain if it's not a good culture to start with. You may have a lot of permission as a CEO, seemingly permission, but you're just gonna work and push a rock uphill if it's not there to begin with.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

Understood, understood. So now where we're getting into mergers and acquisitions, and how this is also a key disruption that uh leaders in their in their best selves, the best of the leaders, have an ability in the midst of that to still drive the team together and make them sticky to one another so they can continue to be successful.

SPEAKER_01: 6:47

Yeah, I think for us the example of Kiki's Breakfast Cafe and the acquisition three almost almost three years ago, I had just joined, and this was in the works for quite some time. And coming from a portal portfolio company like I did with Brinker International, um, it was incredibly important that in bringing new teams together, that we allowed them still to be separate. So the Kiki's Breakfast Cafe team has unique, a unique purpose statement that we didn't try and take the Denny statement, the Denny's purpose statement of we say this all the time, we love to feed people body, mind, and soul, came from Harold Butler in 1953 when he started the first Danny's Donuts. And so with Kiki's, they came in and we said, that's probably not gonna work, it's not gonna be authentic to you. So, how do you allow them to still uh be a part of this big team, create synergies, create one team, um, and then acknowledge uh their first team may be those that serve in a Kiki's breakfast cafe, and it's not Denny's. So we look for what's common. We have common guiding principles or values, uh, and we crafted those together in light of that acquisition, in light of having a new brand in the portfolio. But it was really critical, things closest to the guest and closest to the employee had to remain separate and they had to be able to chart their own path. Or an acquisition, in my opinion, an acquisition could fail if you just try and throw everybody at it, you know, all together and not really see the differences and uniqueness of each of your you know brands at that point. Um, and I think it's a mistake sometimes made of let's just all be driving towards this greater good for the corporation when we wanted to keep what was unique to Kikis, really unique to Kikis, and vice versa for Denny's.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

So let's take those two pieces as setting the context. New leadership comes in, and that's one kind of disruption. Vergent acquisitions happen, and that's a different kind of disruption. Let me insert uh a different one, and that is loss. When loss occurs inside of an organization, individual loss, group loss, geographic loss, um I believe that leaders can still use these moments to pull people, push people together, right? And that such that be they can maintain a level of innovation and creativity and productivity, but it comes from their desire or connection to one another. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 9:06

Again, I would go back to I think you know what you're stepping into and know the kind of culture that exists and whether that is not only welcomed, but um that you are seen for your whole self. And when I walked, the the story I would tell you is when I walked in here from the previous CEO, John Miller, um, who I've known my entire life and who I knew, you know, at the age of 24, met him for the first time, um, larger than life back then, and an amazing, um, an amazing purpose-driven leader. In the closet that's outside my office was a set of gifts uniquely chosen by one local artisan artist that created um they're angels. There's a candle with a cross. There's and it is there. It was there and passed on to me for me to give to people uh appropriate when appropriate, when needed. And if there's someone that has had a loss um of any kind, right, just something dramatic, um that's that's I've I've given those out and I've reordered and replenished that closet so that um you know it's it's it serves it serves that purpose, which was to make sure somebody feels seen, feels like this organization has their not only has their back, um but we know what they're going through and there's a community, there's a family and a community here behind them.

SPEAKER_00: 10:30

Yeah, I I have found that there's some a wise person, my elder sister told me this, that loss is loss. And it does if somebody loses a spouse, we can't diminish that in relation to somebody else losing a child, in relation to somebody else losing a mother, or somebody losing a pet or a home, or even a divorce, or things like that that occur in people's lives. And that that because loss is loss, and because we can't say which one is more critical or impactful to another, it then becomes contingent upon the leader to be sensitive to it all. Right? And to and that if we can be sensitive to it all, then perhaps then we can uh assign uh the learnings from it to people who build policy to ensure that the people are seen, that though that these uh uh these needs are surfaced, that loss is surfaced in a way that drives people together.

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And again, and all the the leaders that you have to be aligned in that. And sometimes the policy sometimes the policy actually will follow the events that you all learn from. Um and that's really critical as well. So that constant learning of does this still serve us? Um, does it still make sense? Is it time to reevaluate that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:41

Yeah, yeah. Like here in your neighborhood, there uh occurred a uh a hurricane that doesn't normally come this direction, right? And the reaction of that is versions of loss, right? And you don't get to see the gap in the policy until the incident occurs. And we have a client where that that occurred and they realize that because the majority of their uh uh team members are frontline team members that make uh modest incomes, that they didn't have a way of capturing them when they lost, right? In a meaningful way, a way that was meaningful to them. Sure. That instead they had only emergency monies for those who were in a destitute situation. They didn't have something for the common man or the common woman.

SPEAKER_01: 12:25

Sure, absolutely, and uh so I love I love this topic because we did have a real situation here with the hurricane that impacted this area, impacted Spartanburg, and it dramatically impacted um a lot of our uh team members a lot. And and yet they were still trying to get their work done. We still had to power this building that you're in, still had to be powered. Um we then got the mobile relief diner up and ready to go, geared it up, and then sent it out to the streets to feed anybody we could. And the volunteer, the line of volunteers was endless. Um, we stayed here in Spartanburg for a few days, then went on to Asheville, and then went on to Florida for Milton. And in that three-week period, you know, the the training, my dad actually was able to go in my spot because we had to be at our conference, our franchise convention in Colorado Springs. So we had to go the opposite direction and be away from it all. Um my dad took my spot and said it was one of the best days he's ever had. Wow. Because when he got there, the training was today you serve a meal, but you serve a smile and you give hope. And the conversation that you choose to engage, how you choose to engage, will make all the difference. So that's that's Denny, that's the culture that's existed for a really long time. I just get to spread that and be kind of the chief reminding officer at times of the beautiful things that do happen when there's loss or the way this brand, these this company comes together, because that's what we did. How quickly can we get the mobile relief diner out there? Broke all kinds of records of how many meals we served each day and how many people were touched, right? The that showed up with mud all over everything because there's no running water days after the storm. And uh I'd like to think our employees that had needed anything got that first, um, but then they rallied around the community. Just a beautiful, beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

Let me let me shift gears to talking about um sections of the professional uh workplace. And in this case, I'm I want to discuss those folks that are sort of in the middle third of their careers, if we were to break them up into thirds. You know, they've been around for 12, 13 years, but not quite 20 years, somewhere in that neighborhood. And one of the um uh themes, perhaps reputations, perhaps experiences of senior people when they look at this group, is that they wish they were more resilient. And they they don't quite see grit in the same way that it was taught to them or that they learned from the baby boomer and traditional groupings. And I wonder if that's uh uh if that's something you've heard in conversations, if that's something that's bubbled up, um, if you happen to be maybe mentoring a person or two that is in and you see some of these, you see is resilience should it be seen differently? Uh is grits should it be seen differently, or is that something that this group just didn't get the chance to experience in the ways that others did?

SPEAKER_01: 15:20

So we're still talking about those millennials now just a little bit older. Yes?

SPEAKER_00: 15:24

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, my guess is that these people are they're in their middle 30-year-olds, right? This group, and but they're not quite 45. And they're prepared to just poke into the uh uh senior executive levels. They're about ready to be a senior VP, a senior executive vice president, maybe they're old director, something like that. And maybe they're wondering why I'm not being seen this particular way. And and some of the conversations that I've had are they get knocked down when I'm talking to them, they get knocked down and they don't get up in the same way. Or they don't get up. They and their their mindset does not include a button that says, I will get up one more time. They don't have that button.

SPEAKER_01: 16:06

You know, I think it's uh it's interesting because I think I look at every generational difference and and love studying it as well, love being a student of just understanding, you know, the differences and how people arrive depending on, you know, I have two children, they're both Gen Z. It's fascinating to watch how they approach work uh today, you know, coming out of college, uh, and to watch, you know, the teams we all um collectively lead. I tend to still want to look for what's common, right? And so this idea of, you know, do you see me? Do you connect with me? Do you care about me? Right? And uh I think resilience can come from all of that, but it has to like the investment has to be there. They've got to see an investment that you're making. And I do think that resilience can be taught if they don't feel connected, seen, right? And again, I've seen this through my daughter, who everyone would say, well, that generation, you know, are they really gonna care about the same things? Are they gonna work as hard? Has it been given to them? It's the same thing. She she wants to, and that's not just because she's my daughter. She wants to be seen, connect, be connected. She wants to feel like she's doing well and doing a good job. Um, and then to be, you know, resilience I think comes from failing failing and then still being able to get up, but you've got to actually trust the environment you're in in what in a place where and know you're in a place where you could say, I didn't do that so well, but I'm here again to learn, right? Um it's funny because every time if I asked to do a keynote, it's oh, don't forget to talk about the mistakes you've made. And I think there lies a bit of your question, right? Is it is can I learn from somebody that's made mistakes, still here to talk about it? So the life didn't end because I made a mistake at work, and and believe me, I can make really you know, there are big ones, there are big things I've done that I wish I'd done differently. But that's what everybody wants to hear about. They want to hear somebody in my position talk about um being resilient, if you will, but they want to hear it and learn and learn from the story of you made that mistake and how did you recover from that? What did you learn from it? How'd you recover from that? And were you oh are you okay?

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah, I think that you're right about that. You know, I I think about there's a parenting term that I think might apply in the professional context. It essentially posites that we want our children to learn the lessons that we learned without having to go through what we had to go through in order to learn it. Yeah, right. And in the but we don't want to throw our kids in the deep end with no life raft, no nothing.

unknown: 18:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 18:31

Because you got to drown a little bit to understand this, right? And I think I wonder if that hasn't played out in the professional context, where we are much more apt to what I call empower without full accountability, right? And then the the the the second component of that is if I do empower you and I do hold you fully accountable, did I tie that task, that stretch task, to my KPIs as a senior leader? Right? Did I make it meaningful to me and you know that if you don't perform well, it's gonna impact me, us, we, right, or is it just you on your stretch assignment over there in the corner?

SPEAKER_01: 19:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you have to connect it back to the bigger organization, to what is meaningful. We have four key results. And in for every assignment, there's a can I show you how this ladders back to the four one of one of the four key results? So we're all vested in that. Your assignment could be smaller, but is it still tying back to the bigger results that are common for all of us?

SPEAKER_00: 19:30

If if you were going back to give your 35 to 40-year-old self a piece of advice, understanding that nothing about your life is gonna change. All this stuff is still gonna happen. Right? And it can't be a piece of advice that helps you to avoid falling on your face. Right? What what might you say?

SPEAKER_01: 19:51

My 35-year-old self. Uh I'd probably, I talked about this recently uh when asked about surprises or things I would do differently. And I would uh trust myself more. You know, imposter syndrome is a real thing that most leaders have, many don't talk about. And it's not just, geez, I question myself, it's the fear of being found out. And just saying it out loud, there's some empowerment that comes from saying that out loud. Like I'm not, you know, does anybody really understand that none of us really know? And we're doing our best just to surround ourselves with people smarter than us uh and to do the best we possibly can, right? So I think I would say trust yourself, it will be okay, and it is okay to make those mistakes, and you deserve to be here, right? So there's like four advices in there, four pieces, four pieces of advice in that one thing.

SPEAKER_00: 20:46

I I want to go backwards and grab something that I I extricated out from the conversation because of something that you said. You and I met in connection to women's food service form in that that time frame in our lives, and I still uh find that that conference, those conferences, to be exceptionally meaningful. And there are things that happen at women's uh uh generated conferences like women's food service forums or uh or or what have you that don't happen when they are sort of uh uh general conferences. And one of those is discussing things like imposter syndrome and the support that comes from the kind of connections that happen in those conversations or workshops, and that doesn't happen in other conver other conferences in the same way. And I think what happens as a result of that is you get a bunch of women who are bet more adept at collaborating and supporting each other through those kinds of things, and less men who are good at that. And so you have a bunch of men running around who have imposter syndrome who then find themselves lonely. And so I think there is a higher grade of loneliness in in men folk who happen to be professionals than women folk who happen to be professionals, in large part because they're not taught to collaborate in meaningful ways. Right. They're not taught the things that are pillars of the women's food service form type of conferences. Um what are you what's your thinking around that?

SPEAKER_01: 22:09

My thinking around that is something that I actually have talked about for years, which is this idea that women do come by a lot of the characteristics of vulnerability, balance, patience, empathy, collaboration. Like there's studies done, right? If you put, there's this, it was years ago that I read this study and I have pulled it forward and I still quote it even though it's so dated. But the study was about those natural traits, those traits more natural to women than men can serve women uh exponentially, right? Can serve us in such unique and authentic ways. Does not mean men are not capable of it, but it is more natural, it's more natural to lean into that. It's the same reason there's books written on, you know, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, and ask a man, uh ask a male leader, are you ready for this next assignment? Yes, hold my coffee, hold my beer. That's right. And the woman, again, it's there's data, says, uh, geez, I don't know, man. I'm still mastering this role, right? So it's it's uh it's forever been the mark of the the differences that you know wet men and women naturally have. Uh I think it's the reason the conversations are different, and I think it's the reason uh that the men that are there are the enlightened, you know, the enlightened folks that are like, this is amazing development because we're talking about something different and it may feel more authentic, more real. And again, it doesn't mean men can't do it. Um I'm not sure men or men are lonelier because of it, because I think I think equal, like just different, different loneliness maybe at a different level. Um, but there is some comfort uh in have being able to have those discussions openly. There's empowerment for me in being able to tell other women that might struggle with can I show that part of myself that uh yeah, it's actually needed more than ever. Back to safe spaces. That's a Brene Brown quote. Create safe spaces for people. So leadership has changed over the years. It used to be Jack Welch and the GE Way and much more um tough and um competitive or cutting uh cutthroat, if you will. And I think that's evolved over time to what you have today, which is people need a leader that will nurture, create a path, get results, but also you know, do some good along the way. Like, shame on you if you're not trying to do some good, some greater good with what you've been given. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00: 24:25

So wrapping up, you you bring up Jack Welsh and others, and you know, I I choose to put you in the Jack Welsh grouping of great leaders. I choose to, because and I think I'm right. So um, with that as a backdrop, I wonder if you have a thought on this. Why would anybody ever want to be a C-suite leader, particularly in a complex organization? When you when you look at the landscape of these humans, what about them suggest, yeah, I I've got that DN in my DNA too. There's something in the bones that that helps us to become these kinds of people, right?

SPEAKER_01: 25:08

I that's a it's a hard question. It's difficult to pinpoint just one thing. Obviously, I think um you know, driven to the point of you can sense in a short, long, doesn't matter how long conversation, you'd be able to sense uh a drive, uh a drive for results, a drive for a kind of winning, uh hating, you know, losing almost as much as winning. Like hating losing. Like do not want to lose being competitive. Um it's similar. It's similar to being competitive, but it is a little bit different. Yeah, it's a cousin, yeah. Um I also think it's a poll. I think you there's a poll for some to just that leadership is a poll. It's like I'm I'm this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm striving to some towards something that I'm just supposed to be doing. I wouldn't say calling, maybe, maybe at the highest order there's a bit of a calling of I've got to keep doing this. Um and then there therein lies that kind of pull and that drive to just keep taking really hard stuff on, right? Um knowing exactly what you're up against. Although I would say you never know what you're up against until you're in the in that seat.

SPEAKER_00: 26:16

But you enjoy that?

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

Yes, yes, because enjoy the right word. Enjoy may not be the right word because it's an o you know, you know, the word uh the the phrase awesome responsibility. Yeah, it's a heavy responsibility because I because you you either care deeply about everybody around you, everybody that's along the journey with you, um, or you detach yourself. And I don't know a way to do that. So for for me, the assignment is all that comes with it, all the franchisees and their livelihood, um, all the employees and their livelihood, their whole selves, their families, that I have the benefit and honor to know. There's a lot that comes with it. That's back to there's a poll still of wanting to do it and still wanting um all that comes with it, that all that comes with the responsibility, even when it's hard.

SPEAKER_00: 27:05

So is that part of what keeps you, allows you, drives you to work that extra hour or two or three? And can you track it backwards a couple decades? Can you track it backwards to grad school? Can you track it backwards to your first two or three jobs? It's like, you know what, y'all go ahead. I'm just gonna stay here and and read another book or uh uh watch another podcast or or or or are you have you been that person for forever?

SPEAKER_01: 27:32

Curio that curious, yeah. Driven? Yes, and that driven, yes. Yeah. The conversation this morning I had was about sports and playing sports in literally middle school and high school and uh the kind of um the kind of competitor, the kind of athlete I was. And there was an example of, hey, take me back to uh the question I got was take me back to, is there somebody you remember? And it was literally the the physical educator, the phys ed teacher. Um and there was an example where it was down to me and this one other young woman. Um, we were young, I mean, I'm in middle school, and it was like this version of flag football, hard to even explain. I don't even know what it was called to this day. But he would not, we kept tying. We kept tying over and over again. And she was probably the better athlete, and I was good, but she was probably the better athlete, but he would not let us give up. He would not. He he was like, Well, we're all gonna stay here. The whole class had to stay, and everybody had to wait for one of us to win. Um, the next question was, did you win? I'm like, I don't know. I don't remember if I won or not, but I certainly remember not giving up. And then everybody was waiting on us to finish, like finish what you started, and we were exhausted. Um, but that left a big indelible mark on me, as did some of my first experiences in the workplace of you know what leadership looks like, um and and the whole premise of kind of leaving it better than you found it, seeing others, things that I've also often talked about.

SPEAKER_00: 29:03

So I want to carve out a space of time in case you have a question for me. I'm gonna put that over the side. But what you just said that um we had to keep going and we kept tying, and I don't know if I won. What's today's version of that in your life? What's the version of I gotta keep going, I gotta keep going, I don't know if I've won. I maybe keep tying, but I I can't stop, won't stop. People keep me on the field, right? I'm I'm not even allowed to get off the field.

SPEAKER_01: 29:29

Oh, every day, every day I have a scorecard. And it's not it's not the scorecard I want, it's not the scorecard we, my collective, the collective we, everyone here wants to be winning. Um, and there's a stock price every day that is an indicator of are you finished on that field? Um no, no, we're not finished. And it's not uh, no, I'm not happy until it's better. It's better for all those franchisees, all of our employees. There's a hundred percent or more bonus, right? And that's not what we've been able, that's not what I've been. Been able to do that goes back to that. That's the responsibility in it that feels you know heavy at times, and yet that's what we're that's what we're here to do.

SPEAKER_00: 30:08

I thought you might have slipped into being a parent. Like being a great parent is like a continual journey, regardless as how old your kids are, right? They can be five or fifteen or twenty-five, still working hard to be a great parent. Always. And you don't get to decide when you're off the field. You don't get to decide if you won or lost. Your kids will say when you're gone, mom was a great mom. Yes. Right? Sure. You don't get to choose whether you're not you got the first place trophy in mommishness. Right. No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

Oh, it applies there for sure. It applies there for sure. The results are a little muddier on any given day. Right? On any given day. But you, yeah, you find out as they become adults is when you really find out the things that mattered and the things that you did well. Like your scorecard comes that becomes clear on Mother's Day, right? With what's written in cards, um, what they say about you two friends when you're not around, you know, um, that's when you start to really understand. My daughter once said to me, I pulled a Kelly. And I'm like, Oh good lord, what does that mean? What does that mean? And she said, I stood up for myself, right? And so there was a moment where they'll say really priceless things that will give you some indication. Otherwise, yeah, you never give up. It changes all the time, but the score is not always as clean. And the goal post keeps moving. And the gold post moves all the time.

SPEAKER_00: 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:30

As it does with work. Absolutely. You happen to have a question for me. I don't know that I do. Is this um Excellent? I just make any sense to you all that we've talked about.

SPEAKER_00: 31:42

No, I I think it does, especially this last part, it's like, you know, the the DNA, the fiber of who you are, shows up at work, right, in your hyper-professional space. And in this other space of being a parent, where it's that's also very critical to you. And then there's all the in-betweens. There's there's being a wife and being a daughter, and being a friend, and being a colleague, and being a mentor, and being a coach, and all of these things, it's other people that judge. All you got is like the fire in your bones, and the direction and your ethics, and the things that you've learned over time, the the dozens and dozens of times you've fallen on your face, and hopefully you learned enough of the lesson, and you've still got enough dirt on your face and elbows to say, okay, I've I've got it, I got some grit now. I learned how to get this and do this better. I see that running consistent through not just you, but other leaders. Yeah, you know, and although people couldn't see your face, when I put you in the Jack Welch box, it is what it is. And and I think that it's uh seeing your face there and then seeing your face when you said that that the coach wouldn't let us quit. Like your face had this thing, right? Oh, wouldn't let us quit. But it's it's it's you are who you are, and I think you're fantastic. I'm biased, but I'm also right.

SPEAKER_01: 32:59

And it's your podcast, so you get to be right. So I get to be right. You get to be whatever you'd like. Thank you. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 33:05

Well, thank you for joining me. I really appreciate spending time with you. You're you're one of you're one of the best people. Thank you, James. Appreciate it.