The RIGHT Kind of Uncomfortable
Hosted by Dr. James Pogue
The RIGHT Kind of Uncomfortable asks the hard questions about today's most interesting, awkward and necessary topics. We host business leaders from across industries, people with unique skill sets and experiences, that have given them an intriguing perspective on our world.
We also dig into the everyday challenges that are too common for too many. This podcast gives you a way to see you are not alone, that others are navigating the waters you are in, and that there is a path through it all. This path although sometimes hard to find is there and we can find it as long as we are willing to be The RIGHT Kind of Uncomfortable.
The RIGHT Kind of Uncomfortable
S02E05 - with Dr. Ryan Warner
Psychological safety isn’t about eliminating discomfort. It’s about creating the conditions where challenge and growth can thrive without fear of retaliation or exclusion. Dr. Ryan C. Warner joins James to explore how leaders at every level can balance safety with accountability, and why emotional intelligence is a critical skill for high-performing, inclusive teams. From feedback dynamics to work-life integration, this conversation offers practical insight for leaders navigating complexity, ambition, and change.
Dr. Ryan C. Warner is the president and CEO of RC Consulting. He's many things, a man of many faces and skill sets, to include that he's a husband, a father, a business owner, and military veteran. He's also a psychologist with a ton of experience working with large and medium-sized organizations. Dr. Warner and I spent some time talking about the idea of psychological safety, particularly in today's disruptive environments. I asked him about the idea of psychological safety in a time when we know that leaders' experience and wisdom are grown in tumultuous circumstances. If that's the case, how then do leaders invite team members into this difficulty, into these difficult times, while creating psychological safety? This is an interesting conversation that is necessary for leaders who are trying to push their teams, but also create a bubble of as much psychological safety as possible. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. Alright, we are here with Dr. Ryan Warner, known for a few years now, from a military vet status to the uh additional, an additional doctor of uh that happens to be a man of color doing great work and great things in the great state of Texas, whatever that means today. Um we're both in those places and have a lot of shared experiences. And I wanted to really uh thank you for being here to uh explain some things to people from the perspective of an expert, but overlaying that onto the corporate side. So I really appreciate you being here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thanks, Dr. Paul, for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So let's start off with just give us a brief bio. What's the what's the two-minute, one-minute sketch on who Dr. Ryan C. Warner is?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I am a father, I'm a husband, I'm the founder and chief executive officer of RC Warner Consulting, and we're a boutique consulting firm that ultimately looks at the intersection between workplace well-being and workplace inclusion. Uh, I've recognized throughout my time in the military, I was an active duty military psychologist, and I saw a lot of individuals who come to me in therapy, and they would mention that they've experienced a lot of mental health challenges due to their workplace situation. So they didn't feel heard, they didn't feel that they belonged, they felt that they were engaged in toxic leadership, and in turn, that impacted their overall health and well-being. So instead of the treating the symptom, I wanted to actually go into the workplaces and get to the root of the issue. And in turn, I then transitioned more into the consulting field. And now, fast forward, um what, five years later, I'm starting my business. Uh, we've worked on ciscontinents globally, trained over 15,000 individuals, and we engaged in leadership development, workplace well-being, and workplace inclusion so that organizations can thrive.
SPEAKER_00:Nice, nice. So just a broad connection. Have you seen uh from your experience in the military to your experience with corporations, nonprofits, etc., any key themes that you might draw out?
SPEAKER_01:So the key themes, we know research shows, according to the American Psychological Association survey that was done a couple years ago, 70% of employees across all industries are burnt out currently. Okay, so that shows right there, not just in the military, but in every single industry, individuals are not feeling fulfilled, they're not feeling satisfied, they're not feeling engaged. And guess what? That impacts performance, that impacts elevation, and the bottom line, right? So that is the theme, you know, that I'm saying. Number one, workplace well-being, right? Being overworked, not having enough resources, right? Um, and then number two, another key piece is a lot of leaders may not have that emotional intelligence, you know, and emotional awareness to ultimately lead in the right way. Um, so in turn, that impacts team dynamics and that impacts over organizational effectiveness. So those are the main things that I've seen working with Fortune 500 companies, government entities, and high-performing organizations across the globe.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Now, so when we think about the corporate context specifically or the business context, this theme or this term psychological safety became a buzzword, say seven, eight, maybe as long as ten years ago, but it really sort of started to take root in a meaningful way and became something that had to be talked about at conferences, had to be part of the workplace dynamic in a variety of ways. My question for you is what is psychological safety? How might you define that? And how does it differ from an educational or family context to the corporate or business context?
SPEAKER_01:So the way I look at psychological safety is the ability and the willingness to be able to speak up in a workplace setting in which you feel like there will be no retaliation, in which you feel that you can be your true open and honest self. Whether it be speaking up for an idea that you have, or maybe you have feedback that you want to convey to make the workplace better, right? It's the idea that, hey, I feel empowered that I'm able to express this in a way in which I will not receive any negative type of feedback or outcomes. Now, when we look at in a maybe family dynamic or educational type of background, I look at more as how can I go into that setting and feel that I have the ability to improve my learning, uh, improve my knowledge about a topic, uh, and improve my personal development. When it comes to the workplace, I look at more as am I able to speak up? Um, and in turn, that helps improve organizational outcomes and organizational performance.
SPEAKER_00:Understood, understood. You know, in today's time of sort of disruption and litigiousness, so many people are uh scared, have fear around raising their hand or correcting someone, being giving critical feedback because they they may get themselves in some version of trouble. You know, and there seems to be more resistance to the kind of discomfort or perhaps pain that a resistance is necessary to grow. So I wonder how you might frame the response to this. Um, is there a are we leaving too many emerging professionals without the opportunity to struggle? Because leaders are trying to create psychological safety, right? Are we are we eliminating the roughness that's necessary for them to grow?
SPEAKER_01:So that's a great question. Um so we for us to grow, we have to take risks and we have to sit with discomfort. And oftentimes when people hear the term psychological safety, they mean they think that, well, I have to create an environment in which people don't feel uncomfortable, right? And there's some cognitive dissonance there, right? So to feel safe, you need to have a healthy level of discomfort, but not to you don't want to feel unsafe. Okay, those are two different types of um ideas that we have to keep in mind, right? How can I, if I have a concern, how can I express that feedback, in which I know it feels uncomfortable interpersonally, but I know my views are gonna be hurt and my ideas, right, are maybe going to be lived up. Versus if I feel unsafe, then in turn I'm going to engage in avoidance, right? Because if I feel unsafe, then guess what? I don't want to get fired, right? I don't want to have somebody mark me down on a performance report, right? That's a feeling of unsafe, right? So understanding the difference there. So I encourage leaders when I'm engaging in 360-degree feedbacks or doing executive coaching that understand that difference. Being unsafe, creating unsafety in the workplace versus creating discomfort. A healthy amount of discomfort is going to lead to growth. But guess what? As human beings, we don't like discomfort. Everything that we do and how we navigate the world ultimately is to avoid any discomfort and to create homeostasis within ourselves and within our environment. So sometimes we have to what we call a top-down process and push that down and recognize that and understand that this discomfort in the short term is actually going to lead to long-term sustainable growth. But we have to ask ourselves, is it safe, right? Is it helping improve team dynamics and helping boost outcomes? And if it hits all three of those, right, then we need to approach that discomfort.
SPEAKER_00:So if I'm an emerging leader, um I've I've been uh tapped as somebody who has some potential, right? And I'm giving in stretch assignments, and um, I'm starting to get that kind of critical feedback that is kind of uncomfortable. How do I know the difference as a person who hasn't yet experienced this? What are some of the things I should be considering? Like this has gone beyond discomfort to where I should be uh I should be feeling unsafe. This feeling I have is one of lack of safety, versus it's simply uh the cognitive dissonance that you referenced earlier.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think about we all have these healthy, what we call healthy stretch zones. Okay, so there's a zone, right? And we may weave back and forth. But the moment we cross that boundary in which, you know, now there may be some possible harm, right, then we've gone too far. Right? So understanding that feedback, number one, is that feedback evidence-based, right? Is it based on data? Is it based on fact, right? Or is it based on how I feel about that person? Is it based on bias, right? Um, so right there, that shows are we in a healthy zone or are we getting more in the unhealthy zone? Oftentimes feedback is based on some uh subjective type of reports, right? We know that, for instance, women receive more feedback based on personality characteristics, and men get more feedback traditionally based on outcomes and performance and actions and behaviors. So right then and there, that can be unsafe, right? Uh, the way uh may provide feedback to a woman if it's done in a very biased way.
SPEAKER_00:Is that unsafe or is it just unbalanced? Because I, as a young man or growing man, or an executive man, I may need feedback on my personal characteristics, right? How I talk to people, my tone, etc. And my female colleague may need these other pieces around uh these other characteristics that you mentioned. So is it unsafe or unbalanced, or am I receiving what you're saying incorrectly?
SPEAKER_01:Well, right, that that feeling unbalanced may lead to uh uh safety, um, not having that safety, right? Because if it's only based on personality characteristics, if it's only based on that bias, right, then in turn, guess what? That woman leader is not gonna feel that they can speak up, it's going to feel that they have to, you know, uh, you know, shift um just their personality traits. They may not feel like they belong in the workplace, and that's gonna impact how they interact with others, that's gonna impact their performance, engagement, etc. And now they feel unsafe within the workplace. Okay, so it has to be more of that balance because that unbalanced feedback could then lead to that um those safety challenges.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's that's really good, you know. And so as you're as we separate out sort of different groupings, right? You talked a little bit about uh uh male professionals, female professionals, senior emerging leaders. What might be your advice to senior leaders in the position of providing advice, or though that senior leader is trying to elevate to the C-suite. They're trying to elevate to the board, and they know they need the appropriate struggle, they need the appropriate discomfort, but they're not sure how to get involved and how to jump off of that cliff.
SPEAKER_01:Well, first we have to prove our awareness, right? Um, we have to prove our emotional intelligence. We know that the the best leaders, the most impactful leaders, are the ones that have this emotional awareness, emotional intelligence within themselves. And we have to do that in a very intentional way, right? Um sometimes we'd be surprised how many people continue to get to the top and they have zero self-awareness and emotional intelligence, and they're not able to regulate themselves or even be mindful of the biases that they have and how that impacts their interactions with others, right? So that's the first step. Like, how are you intentionally enhancing your emotional awareness so in turn you're giving that more balanced feedback, right? And being able to best support your team.
SPEAKER_00:How can I do that? What might be some ways that I could increase my awareness and emotional intelligence? What might be some to-dos that you would leave leave the senior executives with?
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's formalized methods, right? So in the work that I do, we provide 360 assessments in which they're able to take an emotional type of intelligence 360, and then they're able to get feedback from their peers, uh, subordinates, right? Um, and then now, outside of looking at their lens, they're able to see the perspective of others, right? And they're able to get data, subjective and objective data of where they need to improve. You know, that's a formalized method. Um, but the second method would be um, how can you recognize, you know, the what's the functional impact that you may see when it comes to you know these blind spots that you may not be aware of, right? So for instance, maybe you go to the workplace and you recognize, yeah, a lot of my subordinates, they don't come to me when you know difficulty, difficult times in their life, you know, occur, right? So I always maybe hear from one of my peers that they lost a family member or you know they're struggling financially. Why do they not come to me? Right? So that's right there. You see that functional impact, right? And in turn, you can then say, okay, how can I get more data about what am I doing behaviorally in which people don't feel open to come to me, right? Um, so try to identify where those pockets in which you want to improve, and then be able to get accountability partners, be able to get individuals that can give you a different perspective to widen, you know, um, you know, your your perspective on that issue.
SPEAKER_00:So that's a really good point, uh, Dr. Warner. I I like the idea of taking stock in the folk around you and your conversations with them and recognize that there's some critical things that are happening in their lives that you're hearing about after the fact. You know, I I had a very good friend or have a very good friend, and then this was uh might have been 15, 20 years ago. He was going through a tough, uh, a tough divorce, and I was coming out of a tough uh relationship issue, and neither one of us were talking to each other about it. We were both struggling in our own silos, and although we were seeing each other regularly, like once a month, we'd we'd get together and hang out, the depth of the challenge uh that each of us were navigating, we didn't share. And we were absent the support of one another. And we had to call each other on the carpet and say, you know, we we can't have that, right? We we know each other well enough, we love each other enough, we need each other enough. So we have to commit that if you're in a bit of turmoil, uh uh open open up the uh opportunity for me to help, you know, knock on the door. But and also I had to say to them, um, I'm going to come to you and say, what's going on? Right? I'm I'm I I gotta build the bridge too. It was uh it was very enlightening and humbling conversation with somebody that I'd known for at that time a decade, decade or more. And I thought we were quote unquote better than that, but it just it just wasn't the case.
SPEAKER_01:And so right there, you were able to identify that because you took a pause, right? And you asked yourself that question. Um, you know, yeah, why why are we, you know, not sharing that part of ourselves with each other? So right there, that's another key tenet of how we can boost our emotional intelligence to take that pause to ask ourselves those reflective questions. So then we can work to try to find, you know, what is the root of that issue?
SPEAKER_00:I like that. Take the pause so that you can ask the reflective questions uh about what you have uh identified in your uh as you evaluate your relationships with key VIPs and others in your lives. So, how might, if at all, your advice differ to emerging executives who desire advancement, right? And they're trying to figure out how to engage in this sort of corporate business workspace and get the right kind of uncomfortables, we call it a JPE, so that they can move forward and be successful.
SPEAKER_01:Well, for emerging leaders, when I work with these individuals, I often ask them, you know, what motivates you to be a leader, right? And they often say, Well, I had bad leadership in the past and I don't want to be like them. You know, uh so that is good data about you see what doesn't work, right? And then you're motivated to be better. Um, so it's interesting, right? Because with emergent leaders, you know, they're they're now getting to the point in which they have more autonomy, maybe they have more responsibility, right? So I would, again, give them the similar advice. How do you take that pause, right, and recognize um what are some of your gaps that you're seeing? And then also, what are you doing that is maybe more adaptive, maybe compared to that other leader that you look up to? And what are you doing that maybe aligns with that poor leadership that you did not appreciate? Right? Because in person, sometimes we try to be the opposite of our role models that weren't really helpful in our life, but then we engage in cognitive dissonance and we in turn may still continue to do what they do, right? So, yeah, I would I would just look at, yeah, who are you are as a leader, and then what are you doing that you're proud of? What are you doing that in turn is is leadership that you would not appreciate? You know, like I talked to a leader recently, and they were like, Yeah, I didn't appreciate how my my past supervisor, they always told me to take a break, but they never took a break, right? And in turn, I didn't feel safe and open to take leave and take PTO. But then I would ask them, okay, as a leader now, do you do that? And they say, no, I just preach it as well, but I don't even take my own advice. So right there, there's some cognitive dissonance. Well, you just said you didn't appreciate that, but you're engaging in the same behavior, right? So that pause and that reflection is gonna boost their emotional intelligence, their awareness, and help them continue to grow in their leadership uh development.
SPEAKER_00:Let me give you a scenario and get your feedback on it. So I am uh when I'm engaging with people, whether it's coaching or strategic development or strategic planning, what have you, one of the things that uh seems to be occurring on a regular basis now is this idea that work-life balance, another uh phrase that didn't exist two, three decades ago that has taken on a life of its own, um, is not 50-50. It can be 90-10, it can be 10-90. And as you move through the ranks of an organization and increase your experience, and if you want to be a climber and you want to be in the C-suite, it's not anywhere close to 50-50, right? These kinds of individuals seem to have in their bones a restlessness, a fire, a drive that puts them in that 70-30, 80-20, 90-10, sometimes 95-5 space as the norm, right? And and and and some of them have found a partner, a life partner, that understands that and works with them in that, right? And others they didn't, and so oftentimes the divorce rates are higher for those groups, groups of folks. Their relationships with their children can be more strained, their relationships with their friends can be more strained. My point being that this uh work-life balance is differentiated across levels of an organization, and as a result, the the understanding of something like psychological safety is different at these different levels. What is your thinking around that?
SPEAKER_01:Hmm. So I I've never personally used the term work-life balance, you know, for the reason that you provided. I say instead work-life integration or work-life harmony, right? Because you're not going to have that 50-50.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, you think that what you're saying is that balance implies 50-50 in today's sort of language. And so you've selected this different language to provide a different visual, a different feel of how you think it should really, it should really be. Is that what am I hearing you right?
SPEAKER_01:Correct. Yeah, because I really feel like a healthy organization is not, oh, we only work two days a week, right? And the other two days we get time off, right? Instead, it's recognizing when are your employees getting to that point of going over that hilltop in which they're beginning to be burned out, right? When do they need to take that time to you know uh fuel up to take time for themselves, right? And in turn, then they can get back to work and be engaged and boost performance. So instead of counting days, right, or how many hours you're taking off, because you can take that time off and that can be extremely stressful. Then you go back to work, you're even more stressed out, right? Instead, it's more about what's the quality of the time that you're taking for yourself. And then how do we also be mindful, recognizing when we start to get over that hill and get to that burnout, right? And before we get there, we have to be proactive and we have to have that emotional intelligence to say, hey, I don't need the whole day off right now, but I need to uh, you know, just log off a little early, right? Or I need to, you know, be able to not just take the holiday off, but maybe, you know, have some leaves saved up and you know, I'm gonna be strategic about that, right? That's why, you know, actually unlimited PTO actually shows to be more effective than boosting engagement, you know, than having that standardized PTO, right? Because companies have found that they actually save money by giving unlimited PTO. Because guess and if you are able to establish a culture in which taking time off is celebrated, then actually your employees will be more dedicated to the organization. They will work harder, they'll feel the more trusted, right? Because they take their time off when they need it. Um in terms they're gonna actually be more engaged. And there's other study that shows that individuals who actually have unlimited PTO take a little bit less time off than standard PTO. And so it's interesting, right, uh, that we see and boost engagement with that. So that's actually a policy my company has put in place, uh, that limited PTO method. Um, so we can give autonomy, build that psychological safety, build that trust, right? And now individuals um, you know, with boundaries, obviously, uh, they're able to engage in that work-life integration.
SPEAKER_00:Agreed. And I think, you know, what comes with that is obviously the assumption that the key performance indicators are in place and that you know what your job uh left and right boundaries are and all these other things. But I like this idea of unlimited PTO, it's something that we have as well. Is it something that you are recommending across organizational sizes or that you're at least asking people to consider? That this unlimited PTO piece may indeed boost engagements. It's something you should investigate. Is that something you're doing across sizes of organizations as well?
SPEAKER_01:That's a good question. Um, I think it really depends on organizational culture, right? So, for instance, the military, right, that may not work, right? So, but other organizations it may. So, I think you have to take in the cultural aspect of the organization, what's already been instilled. Because in turn, if you do it wrong, it can create that that feeling of unsafety, yes, right, um, that we mentioned, right? Oh, you're telling me to take time off, but I know if I do take this time off, then it's gonna come with some consequences, right? So if psychological safety is not in place, then it actually can worsen the situation.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent, excellent. So I like to leave time as we get to the wrap, we get to the end and we wrap things up here for folks to ask it a question that may be on their mind that is uh sort of bubbled up as we've been talking, or something they've had in their back pocket they want to put in front of me to respond to in some kind of way. So, did you happen to have something that you wanted to push out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm curious. We talked a lot about how do leaders intentionally boost their emotional intelligence. I'm curious, you as a leader, right, like what do you do in an intentional way, right? Because we know that leaders with higher emotional intelligence are able to, you know, make that change, the meaningful change, they're able to boost team dynamics and performance, right? And just perform optimally, right, um, in their roles. So I'm curious what you do intentionally to enhance your emotional awareness and emotional intelligence.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, here's a few things it uh that all have a theme of being purposeful, being intentional. Um, you talked about um taking time off intentionally. I will intentionally take a 20-minute, 30-minute vacation. I'm not thinking about any of this stuff. I'm going for a walk, I'm gonna work, I've been working on my learning Spanish, I put my headphones on, go for a walk, or I'm gonna lay down and take a 10-minute nap, but it's completely disconnected and it's very purposeful. Similarly, I will ask questions of people that I know will tell me their version of the truth about how I'm doing, what I'm missing. Uh, and if are there unmet needs that they have that I haven't met that I committed to some kind of way? Right? Are we miscommunicating about key issues and key uh challenges that we both agreed to face together? Right? Am I have I been clear? So that the check-ins are important, but it's also an opportunity for me to share something like this. I expect you to help me be better. Right? And part of the commitment I'm making to you is that I am going to listen very hard and I'm gonna ask a bunch of questions that make sure that I'm understanding what it is that you're trying to tell me. And it won't, it's not a back and forth, uh, you gave me some feedback, I'm gonna give you some. No, I'm asking for you to do me the favor of helping me be better. And I'm expecting you to give me the best that you can, give it, do the best that you can. So for me, it's about you know finding that uh advisory board, sort of personal and professional advisory board, and then opening up to them and asking them for their assistance and in the context of their responses, letting them know that I expect them to give it to me and to do it in the best way they can. And sometimes the best way they can is not loving, it's not perhaps friendly, uh, because they've only got 10 minutes to shove in 30 minutes worth of uh worth of feedback. So um I try to make those things happen very uh aggressively, and then when they say to me, read this, watch this, uh follow up with me about it, then I I try to follow up on those and follow, follow up and follow through on those things as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's great. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's been it's been helpful for me to to do that. It helps to accelerate me, but it also helps to pause me. You know, sometimes in in these roles that we have, um, as you may have experienced, you're on the stage a lot, you're in front a lot, and it it takes an active dose of humility, like a shot of humility that you may have to give to yourself, to your point uh before, to pause so that you can get yeah, yes. So thank you so much for all of your outstanding feelings. It's a very rich, multi-layered conversation. I really appreciate you taking some time to do that. I'm certain the listeners are gonna get a great deal out of it, and it's wonderful clips for people to engage in over time. So I really appreciate it. Any final words to share?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I'll just encourage everyone to recognize, you know, this is a journey that we're all on, right? I mean, um, you know, we can, you know, implement some of these strategies that we learned today, but just recognize we have to continue to push forward, and the only way we're able to get forward is to sit with that discomfort, approach that discomfort in a safe way. And in turn, that's gonna lead to development and growth.
SPEAKER_00:Last piece, how can people find you? What's the best way for folks to find you if they need to follow up with you about some work they want to get done or they want to follow up with you to learn more about the work that you're doing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so you can reach out at our website at www.rc warnerconsulting.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, Ryan C. Warner PhD. Feel free to send a direct message saying that you listen to me on this podcast. I'd be happy to connect. You can also Google my name, Dr. Ryan C. Warner, my information will come up.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much, sir. Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks for having me. It's been great.